1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,319 Speaker 1: What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the 2 00:00:03,359 --> 00:00:06,599 Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to dive right 3 00:00:06,639 --> 00:00:12,679 back in to the Michael Thomas interview with the OIG Inspectors. Question, 4 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:17,879 so what's your understanding of how Epstein died? Thomas, it's 5 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:21,679 been two years he died from hanging? Question? So do 6 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:23,920 you believe he died from hanging? Do you believe he 7 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:27,120 died from someone trying to murder or someone hurting him? 8 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:31,280 Do you believe that he died from a medical response Thomas, 9 00:00:31,519 --> 00:00:34,240 I'm not medical professional. I don't know. I've seen so 10 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:37,280 many things, and I'm faced with so many things. They 11 00:00:37,359 --> 00:00:41,240 just said that he died from a hanging. Question and 12 00:00:41,399 --> 00:00:44,000 being the first responder to the person in there, do 13 00:00:44,079 --> 00:00:46,520 you believe that is how he died? Now, because you 14 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:50,200 said again previously when I was asking you, I don't 15 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:52,119 know if he was alive or dead. Do you believe 16 00:00:52,119 --> 00:00:56,399 he died from hanging? Thomas? I never believe he died. 17 00:00:56,640 --> 00:00:59,000 I don't believe the conspiracy that somebody snuck into the 18 00:00:59,079 --> 00:01:05,480 jail cattlepult. Did Mitchell just answer the questions Thomas? Yes 19 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:08,120 or no? Thomas? Oh? No, I mean yes, I believe 20 00:01:08,159 --> 00:01:12,319 he died from hanging. Question. Do you believe he died 21 00:01:12,359 --> 00:01:15,000 from hanging? All right? And do you believe that Epstein 22 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:18,480 took his own life? Thomas yes question. Did anyone else 23 00:01:18,519 --> 00:01:23,359 take Epstein's life? Thomas no question. No, did anyone assist 24 00:01:23,359 --> 00:01:28,079 Epstein and taking his life? Thomas, uh huh, no question. 25 00:01:28,719 --> 00:01:33,280 Did Noel take Epstein's life? Thomas no question. These are 26 00:01:33,359 --> 00:01:35,560 questions that we just have to ask because you guys 27 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:37,719 were the first to be there, and you guys were 28 00:01:37,719 --> 00:01:40,640 the ones on duty. Thomas, I'm here with you. Question. 29 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:45,200 Did Noel assist Epstein and taking his life? Thomas no question. 30 00:01:45,599 --> 00:01:50,000 Did you assist Epstein with taking his life? Thomas no question. 31 00:01:50,359 --> 00:01:54,680 Did you take Epstein's life? Thomas no question. Did you 32 00:01:54,719 --> 00:01:58,840 have any part in Epstein's death? Thomas no question. Prior 33 00:01:58,879 --> 00:02:03,079 to Epstein dying, did you do you have any communication, verbal, electronic, handwritten, 34 00:02:03,159 --> 00:02:08,840 or otherwise with anyone BOP staff members, or otherwise, civilians, inmates, 35 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:12,039 anybody about the safety and well being of Epstein? Thomas 36 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:17,840 no question. Prior to Epstein dying, did you have any communication, verbal, electronic, handwritten, 37 00:02:18,039 --> 00:02:23,400 or otherwise with anyone BOP staff members, or otherwise so civilians, inmates, 38 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:27,319 anybody about the death of Epstein or taking Epstein's life? 39 00:02:27,599 --> 00:02:32,319 Thomas no question. Did anyone ever offer you anything such 40 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:35,240 as something of value or favors with regard to harming 41 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:39,639 Epstein or taking his life? Thomas, no question. Did anyone 42 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:42,800 ever threaten you in exchange for harming Epstein or taking 43 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:47,159 Epstein's life? Thomas no question. Were any of your family 44 00:02:47,159 --> 00:02:52,000 members Thomas no, absolutely not. Question. So now we're getting 45 00:02:52,039 --> 00:02:55,479 more back into the administrative stuff. Why wasn't Epstein And 46 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:59,080 does a signed sell on August tenth, twenty nineteen, Thomas, 47 00:02:59,159 --> 00:03:02,719 I don't know. Question are cell rotations? Do they occur 48 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:05,319 with inmates in the shoe that you have to move 49 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:09,039 them every certain amount of days? Thomas, yeah, question? All right? 50 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:13,719 Who's responsible? Thomas, that's the shoe lieutenant. Question that falls 51 00:03:13,719 --> 00:03:16,800 on the shoe lieutenant. Thomas, Yeah, from the shoe lieutenant. 52 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:19,120 When it falls on the shoe lieutenant to pass down 53 00:03:19,159 --> 00:03:21,639 to the staff members when they're going to do sell 54 00:03:21,719 --> 00:03:26,319 rotations or anything like that. Question all right, Thomas. It's 55 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:29,120 something that's tracked. If I'm not mistaken, it might be 56 00:03:29,199 --> 00:03:32,759 tracked on the computer. I don't know. Question in the computer. 57 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:36,599 Who's responsible for making that change in the computer? Thomas, 58 00:03:36,759 --> 00:03:39,759 I don't know. Question. Did you know that Epstein was 59 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:43,840 not in his assigned sell Thomas, no question, So this 60 00:03:43,879 --> 00:03:49,120 is the first time that you're hearing that Thomas, yes, question, 61 00:03:49,159 --> 00:03:51,400 all right? Is that something that you guys were supposed 62 00:03:51,439 --> 00:03:54,400 to monitor or do when you're in the shoe during 63 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,360 your assignment? Are you supposed to make sure that inmates 64 00:03:57,439 --> 00:04:00,639 are in their assigned cells? Thomas and I come in 65 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:04,039 at twelve, that's all taken care of. You don't move 66 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:07,680 anybody at twelve midnight. Question. Yeah, I just didn't know 67 00:04:07,879 --> 00:04:09,919 if that's something that you guys are supposed to like 68 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:12,960 pay attention to, Like, all right, this guy is supposed 69 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:14,800 to be in this cell. This guy is supposed to 70 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:18,360 be in that cell. Thomas. It's seventy something inmates or something. 71 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:21,720 If fifteen inmates come down on short staff and they 72 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,639 got to move, maybe all fifteen won't get done. So 73 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:28,360 maybe somebody is in a twenty one day rotation. They're 74 00:04:28,399 --> 00:04:31,720 probably laid over for like five or whatever, a couple days. 75 00:04:31,959 --> 00:04:33,879 But I don't know as far as you're going by 76 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:37,079 cell rotation, and his cell rotation is up twenty one 77 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:39,560 days and he hasn't moved there, and he was in 78 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:41,680 the wrong cell. I don't know that. I don't know. 79 00:04:43,079 --> 00:04:46,959 Question Okay Thomas. Like I said, I'm not in custody. 80 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:50,920 I wouldn't deal with that question. Okay. So I'm assuming 81 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:53,800 it's the officers who actually move them physically to a 82 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:58,000 different cell. Thomas. Yeah. Question who goes into the system 83 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:01,040 and changes it in the BOP data? Would that be 84 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:06,680 the officers, Thomas, officers or operation or the shoe lieutenant question? Okay, 85 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:11,120 but that's nothing that's done at twelve am. Thomas, that's 86 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:14,480 nothing that's done at twelve am. No, it's not question, 87 00:05:14,519 --> 00:05:17,120 all right. Do you know why pill bottles were found 88 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:21,879 within Epstein cell? Thomas? No, I do not. Question. Are 89 00:05:21,959 --> 00:05:25,720 inmates allowed to have medication within their cells? Thomas? I'm 90 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:29,920 sure some are allowed? Yeah, question they're allowed Thomas. I'm 91 00:05:29,959 --> 00:05:32,279 sure that some are allowed medication. I don't know what 92 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:36,560 medication they need or anything like that. Question. Do you 93 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:40,319 ever recall seeing a picture I'm showing you with medication 94 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,879 that was in Epstein cell? Do you recall seeing this? Thomas? No? Question, 95 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,079 does that look like something that he would have been 96 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:51,399 authorized to have with that much medication. Thomas, I don't 97 00:05:51,439 --> 00:05:54,600 know what they are. Question. I don't know that they're 98 00:05:54,639 --> 00:05:58,720 authorized and what they're not authorized. Question. Okay, just because 99 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:02,160 I showed it to you, can you mind just initially 100 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:06,920 and dating it? Thomas, I'm sorry, I keep closing this question. 101 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:09,519 No worries, and so you don't know anything about like 102 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:14,079 policies are related to what they're authorized or not authorized? 103 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,720 Thomas No question, would that be up to like medical 104 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:22,240 Thomas medical? Yeah. Question okay, are you familiar just in 105 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:27,600 general non medical related what inmates are authorized and not authorized? Thomas, No, 106 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:33,240 I'm not. Question you're not even familiar Thomas. Hmmm. Question 107 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,480 with what they can and can't have in their cells? Thomas, No, 108 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,519 I'm not. No. All right, hold on, I have to interject. 109 00:06:40,199 --> 00:06:43,160 How are you a prison guard and you don't know 110 00:06:43,199 --> 00:06:45,480 what people are allowed to have or not have in 111 00:06:45,519 --> 00:06:50,000 their cells? Question? Do you know if the shoe is 112 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,680 any different than the rest of the institution of what 113 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:56,839 inmates can and cannot have in their cell? Thomas, yes, absolutely, 114 00:06:57,360 --> 00:06:59,600 I'm sure it's different. I don't know though, because I'm 115 00:06:59,639 --> 00:07:02,480 sure it's different because that's the twenty three on one. 116 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:05,759 So I'm sure it's different from a regular housing unit. 117 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:09,800 On there, it'll walk around. Question what's twenty three on 118 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:12,879 one now? Thomas, they're locked down twenty three hours a 119 00:07:12,959 --> 00:07:16,800 day and then one hour is for wreck. Question. But 120 00:07:16,879 --> 00:07:20,199 as far as what they're allowed to have in their cells, Thomas, No, 121 00:07:20,279 --> 00:07:22,319 I don't know the book version of what they're allowed 122 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:25,160 and what they're not allowed. Question, So do you know 123 00:07:25,199 --> 00:07:27,639 of other inmates are allowed to have medication in their 124 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:31,279 cells at this time? Thomas? I don't know. Question You 125 00:07:31,319 --> 00:07:34,959 don't know how many changes of clothings and linen's are 126 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:38,920 allowed in intimate cell within the shoe Thomas, I don't know. Question. 127 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,759 You don't know, Thomas, that's something that would be done 128 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:45,399 prior to my shift. Question sure, So does this look 129 00:07:45,439 --> 00:07:49,879 like an exorbitant amount of clothing and linens that are 130 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:53,480 in mister Epstein's sell in that picture? Thomas, It looks 131 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:55,720 like a lot, But that could have just been I 132 00:07:55,759 --> 00:07:58,639 don't know what's from the previous inmate that's left over 133 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:01,160 that they didn't take a stuff like Again, I don't 134 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:04,560 know the inmate that left they didn't take his linen 135 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:06,920 out or not, And you can't tell from these pictures 136 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:09,480 which is ripped up and which is ripped up and 137 00:08:09,519 --> 00:08:12,079 which is not. Most inmates will get a bed sheet, 138 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:15,199 rip it up and put it up as all types 139 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:17,720 of stuff that goes on. But I don't know if 140 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,519 that's something doing or not. It has to be broken 141 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:23,920 down to all right, this is seven sheets, and if 142 00:08:23,959 --> 00:08:26,839 I have seven sheets or something like that, then yes 143 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:29,839 that's excessive. But other than that, I don't know that 144 00:08:29,879 --> 00:08:32,960 they're supposed to have within what they're not supposed to 145 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:36,120 have one sheet? I really don't know. Question. Is it 146 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:39,519 supposed to be a one for one exchange? Thomas? Yeah, 147 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,919 it's one for one. Question, so they're only technically supposed 148 00:08:42,919 --> 00:08:46,440 to have one Thomas. It's two sheets one blanket I think, 149 00:08:46,799 --> 00:08:49,279 or one blanket, one sheet and one towel in one 150 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:54,960 washcloth question Okay Thomas, And I can't remember the full thing? Question? 151 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:58,720 And do you Thomas cuts them off. That's not something 152 00:08:58,759 --> 00:09:02,000 that happens on Morning Watch. That's something that happens prior 153 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:04,600 to the Morning Watch, when I stayed there from twelve 154 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:08,559 to one question Okay, Thomas, that's not something I have 155 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:11,360 twelve to one, you don't take the inmates out, and 156 00:09:11,519 --> 00:09:14,720 I don't know and you don't give them anything unless 157 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:17,399 somebody is coming in off the street. It's already pre 158 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:20,559 bed was made that you're giving to them to put 159 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:23,039 this over there, and usually they try to put them 160 00:09:23,039 --> 00:09:25,840 on Gtier single cell until they can find out what 161 00:09:25,879 --> 00:09:29,960 their affiliation is or anything like that. Redacted. Okay, But 162 00:09:30,159 --> 00:09:32,720 to you though, if there's one person in that cell, 163 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:35,600 does that look like it's too much linen and too 164 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:39,159 much clothing? Thomas? Like again, I can't tell what's ripped 165 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:42,559 up and what's not ripped up. Question. Okay, do you 166 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:46,879 mind just initially and dating these Thomas. Question, I've just 167 00:09:46,919 --> 00:09:49,600 got a question by somebody else. Now, this is somebody 168 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:53,720 else interjecting. Did the cell look like that when you 169 00:09:53,759 --> 00:09:56,720 walked in? Thomas? I don't remember the clothes and stuff 170 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:59,080 being on the floor. I don't remember that much linen 171 00:09:59,159 --> 00:10:02,600 being on the floor. Honestly, I couldn't tell you what's there. 172 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:08,480 I just remember him hanging on his side. Mitchell breaks already. 173 00:10:09,639 --> 00:10:12,159 Question push pause. All right, we're being asked to take 174 00:10:12,159 --> 00:10:15,720 a break, So they take their break and then they 175 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:25,639 come back. Thomas. Okay, question, and we're showing you the pictures. Thomas, absolutely, question, 176 00:10:26,279 --> 00:10:29,840 did you provide Epstein with additional clothing or Lennon's Thomas, 177 00:10:29,879 --> 00:10:34,320 no question, ever, Thomas, no question. Is that anything that 178 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:37,759 you would typically happen between the hours that you work? Thomas, 179 00:10:37,799 --> 00:10:42,679 no question. Twelve to eight am Thomas, no question. Okay. 180 00:10:42,799 --> 00:10:47,039 Is providing inmates with extra clothing and Lennon's a security risk? Thomas, 181 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:49,279 I don't know. I don't know if it's a security 182 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:53,360 risk or anything like that because I don't know. Question okay. 183 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:59,759 Question we touched on this, but when inmates are provided linen's, 184 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:03,279 is it's supposed to be a one for one exchange? Thomas? Yeah? 185 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,399 Question all right? And is that typically what they are 186 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:09,720 utilizing in order to do things like hanging themselves? Thomas, 187 00:11:09,759 --> 00:11:12,919 I don't know. I really don't know. What's the typical thing. 188 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:16,720 Question that's what they used in this case, though it 189 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:20,039 appears Thomas, Yeah, that's what it appears. In this case. 190 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:22,360 You see the sheet or a shirt, I don't know 191 00:11:22,399 --> 00:11:25,720 what it is. Question Okay, and somebody on suicide Watch, 192 00:11:25,919 --> 00:11:28,799 do you think it's abnormal? Again, you didn't provide the linens, 193 00:11:29,039 --> 00:11:32,159 but do you think it's abnormal if he had extra linens? 194 00:11:32,879 --> 00:11:36,440 If he was someone that was just on suicide Watch, Thomas, 195 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:40,000 it's not abnormal for someone to have extra linen. Question 196 00:11:40,039 --> 00:11:44,279 it's not, Thomas m question. So if that's supposed to 197 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:46,279 be a one for one exchange, is that like a 198 00:11:46,279 --> 00:11:50,120 constant problem then at the mcc Thomas in a perfect world, 199 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:53,600 in a perfect world, it couldn't be. But like I said, 200 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:56,480 I'm not custody. I'm not always up here like that. 201 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,279 And when as you can see, all the linen and 202 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:02,480 that stuff is all already done? Question okay, and again 203 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:05,559 we talked about this briefly, But what material was used 204 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:09,320 to take Epstein's life in August of twenty nineteen. Thomas, 205 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:12,000 I don't know what it was. A sheet or a shirt. 206 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:15,600 I don't know exactly what it was. Question This orange cotton, 207 00:12:15,799 --> 00:12:18,279 which could be either Thomas, a sheet or a shirt. 208 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:22,120 Question a sheet or a shirt? Okay? Question does this 209 00:12:22,159 --> 00:12:24,799 appear to be what it was that was removed from 210 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:28,639 mister Epstein? Thomas, it appears to be. Yes. Question Okay, 211 00:12:28,639 --> 00:12:31,759 can you just walk me through like this thing specifically 212 00:12:31,799 --> 00:12:35,399 looks like it's still intact? Thomas, Uh huh? Question did 213 00:12:35,399 --> 00:12:37,759 you have to rip it off or slide it over 214 00:12:37,799 --> 00:12:40,799 his head? Thomas? What are you talking about that was 215 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:43,360 still intact? Yeah, I took it off his head. I 216 00:12:43,399 --> 00:12:45,360 guess I took it off his head. I don't remember 217 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:47,159 I did, but I guess I took it off his head. 218 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:49,679 But like I said, when I ripped it, it was 219 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:53,080 tied to the other portion of it. That's what I 220 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:55,360 meant when I said I ripped it off, like just 221 00:12:55,519 --> 00:12:58,240 when I just pulled it off. Question. Okay, so maybe 222 00:12:58,279 --> 00:13:02,919 it could have also been posted that this was part 223 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:06,039 that's what was actually connected. This is the part that 224 00:13:06,159 --> 00:13:09,120 was possibly ripped Thomas just pushed off. Yeah, like that. 225 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:12,360 It probably just slipped through or whatever the case may 226 00:13:12,399 --> 00:13:15,639 be through that question. Okay, but you said you ripped 227 00:13:15,639 --> 00:13:18,039 it off, Thomas. Yeah, I ripped it off. I just 228 00:13:18,159 --> 00:13:21,000 ripped it from the piece that's still dangling. Question. You 229 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,200 don't recall actually sliding it, Thomas. I don't recall. If 230 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:28,399 it's still intact, maybe I did. Question, And again I 231 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:32,039 don't know that that was what was actually around his neck. Thomas. 232 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:34,559 I don't know. Question, but that does appear to be 233 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:38,240 probably what was around his neck. Thomas. Okay, question is 234 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:43,120 that correct? Thomas? I don't know. Question, you're not exactly sure, Thomas, 235 00:13:43,399 --> 00:13:46,759 I'm not exactly sure. Question, but does this look like 236 00:13:46,799 --> 00:13:49,879 something like you recall when you took it off his head? 237 00:13:50,279 --> 00:13:55,159 Mister Thomas, Yeah, question, all right, just because I showed it, 238 00:13:55,799 --> 00:13:58,639 you want to just initial in date? All right, folks, 239 00:13:58,639 --> 00:14:00,440 we're gonna wrap up right here, and then the next 240 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:02,600 episode dealing with the topic, we're going to pick up 241 00:14:02,639 --> 00:14:05,559 where we left off. All the information that goes with 242 00:14:05,639 --> 00:14:09,000 this episode can be found in the description box.