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<v Speaker 1>Hello, and welcome to the Sociology Show Podcast. My guest

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<v Speaker 1>for this episode was Professor Simon Winlow, talking all about

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<v Speaker 1>his famous ethnographic research looking at bouncers and the nighttime economy.

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<v Speaker 1>Before we get stuck into the episode, though, just a

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<v Speaker 1>couple of messages from me. Firstly, if you're looking for

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<v Speaker 1>the sessions are available. If you go to canondly dot

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<v Speaker 1>the Sociology Show. Thank you very much for your time,

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<v Speaker 1>and without further ado, let's go over to the interview

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<v Speaker 1>with Professor Simon Winlow Enjoy Hello and welcome to the

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<v Speaker 1>Sociology Show podcast. Would you like to start by telling

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<v Speaker 1>us a little bit about who you are and what

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<v Speaker 1>you do?

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<v Speaker 2>Please? Hello everyone, My name is Professor Simon Winlaw. I

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<v Speaker 2>am a professor of social sciences at Northumbria University.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you very much, Simon, and we're going to talk

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<v Speaker 1>about your study, which which my students just know is

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<v Speaker 1>the Bouncer Study. But yeah, we just wanted to find

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<v Speaker 1>out a little bit more about about the research, very

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<v Speaker 1>famous piece of research. So do you mind telling us

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<v Speaker 1>about how it all started to begin with a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit of background about the study.

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<v Speaker 2>Sure. Well, in the dim and distant history, I the

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<v Speaker 2>first of my family to head off to university and

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<v Speaker 2>went to Durham University, which was then very posh and

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<v Speaker 2>is still quite posh, and here did it really didn't

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<v Speaker 2>enjoyed it all, didn't fit in. Took every opportunity that

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<v Speaker 2>I could do to get back home to environments that

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<v Speaker 2>seemed a little bit more comfortable to me. But during

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<v Speaker 2>the process of doing my sociology degree Derrim I encountered

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<v Speaker 2>Professor Dick Cobbs, who was one of my letturers there

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<v Speaker 2>and we got on well, and he obviously saw something

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<v Speaker 2>in me and encouraged me, which was very good of him.

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<v Speaker 2>And I made it through my degree amazingly and started

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<v Speaker 2>a PhD that he supervised. So I started to look

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<v Speaker 2>at a world I knew quite well, which was the

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<v Speaker 2>world of illegal trading. So I was interested in professional

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<v Speaker 2>criminals who were buying and selling stolen goods. The drug

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<v Speaker 2>markets at the time were absolutely exploding. As a ray

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<v Speaker 2>of music it took hold. Night clubs were springing up

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<v Speaker 2>all over the time place, and the nighttime economy was

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<v Speaker 2>growing incredibly quickly. And so how did bounce of stuff started? Specifically?

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<v Speaker 2>Dick got a grant from the Economic ESRC, which is

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<v Speaker 2>the Economic Social Research Council along the Stavehoul that investigates

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<v Speaker 2>bouncers specifically, and he kind of tagged me onto the

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<v Speaker 2>bill bid. I was appointed as a research assistant and

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<v Speaker 2>he said, can you can you extend your study into

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<v Speaker 2>the world of bounces, which which I could. I knew

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<v Speaker 2>that friends of mine were involved in that work, and

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<v Speaker 2>that's how it all got going. I worked alongside Stuart Lister,

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<v Speaker 2>who's currently at University Elites, and Phil Hartfield, who's no

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<v Speaker 2>longer an academic, and we kind of divvied up the

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<v Speaker 2>research and Stewart phil did you know, interviews, various interviews

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<v Speaker 2>that went in the Bounces boat, and I did the

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<v Speaker 2>participant observation.

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<v Speaker 1>Stuff, right, So what was the I'll come on to

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<v Speaker 1>that there, because that's really interesting. What was the kind

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<v Speaker 1>of overall aim or hypothesis of the study? What was

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<v Speaker 1>it you were trying to identify?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean, as part of my studies there, I'd

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<v Speaker 2>done anthropology, and I had this idea of participant observation

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<v Speaker 2>as kind of joining a culture and trying to see

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<v Speaker 2>the world through the eyes of those who were actively

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<v Speaker 2>involved in it. And I approached it with a kind

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<v Speaker 2>of very youthful, evangelical zeal to kind of to really

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<v Speaker 2>understand the complexity of a culture and not simply to

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<v Speaker 2>ask questions of participants, but to try and understand how

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<v Speaker 2>their representations of reality matched with what I saw with

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<v Speaker 2>my own eyes. So I observed the legal trading, I

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<v Speaker 2>observed Bounce, private security companies and whatever else, and I

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<v Speaker 2>wanted to see, you know, what we could make that,

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<v Speaker 2>how we could use that information to really pull back

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<v Speaker 2>the curtain and submit to the cold light of the world,

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<v Speaker 2>which for most people, you know, they would never say

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<v Speaker 2>and certainly never understand.

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<v Speaker 1>And let's get stuck into that, you know, the participant observation,

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<v Speaker 1>because you know, we often talk about sociologists characteristics being

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<v Speaker 1>right for the job as it were, So did you

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<v Speaker 1>look the part Simon? Did you meet the criteria of

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<v Speaker 1>what we imagine about to debate to be able to

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<v Speaker 1>do the research?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes? So I was kind of young and fit and

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<v Speaker 2>like then I would have been like six foot two

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<v Speaker 2>and maybe had a seven in stone and had boxed

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<v Speaker 2>and you know all that kind of stuff and just

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<v Speaker 2>part of you know, I kind of had all the

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<v Speaker 2>scripts that rough and tumble of growing up in a

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<v Speaker 2>working class neighborhood and you know, all those issues that

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<v Speaker 2>one encounters in those environments. And yeah, I could get

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<v Speaker 2>a job. I boxed, and I knew people who were

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<v Speaker 2>working on doors. I knew a couple of people who

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<v Speaker 2>could get me access to private security companies. So, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of friends, lots of acquaintances, and use my

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<v Speaker 2>friendships with those men very very instrumentally get them to

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<v Speaker 2>introduce me to people who could help push things along.

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<v Speaker 1>And then if we just build on that methodology a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit more, was it covit observation? Did you want

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<v Speaker 1>to remain anonymous? How did you actually approach that?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, to be perfectly honest, as I understand it looking

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<v Speaker 2>back now, I had a very open attitude towards revealing

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<v Speaker 2>why I was there, and I didn't go in with

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<v Speaker 2>a very clear idea of what I was willing to

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<v Speaker 2>talk about and what I wasn't. I let the that

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<v Speaker 2>the situation dictate as people who would help me. The

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<v Speaker 2>geatekeepers obviously knew that I was working for a university

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<v Speaker 2>and I was there to gather research. But I went

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<v Speaker 2>in there started the research. And the only real thing

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<v Speaker 2>that I strategy I had with was that I would

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<v Speaker 2>never lie, So if I was asked, I would always

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<v Speaker 2>tell the truth. So the covert aspect of the research

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<v Speaker 2>was simply withholding that information. But as soon as anyone

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<v Speaker 2>solicited information that would lead the truthful disclosure, I simply

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<v Speaker 2>told them. And I think this is one of the

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<v Speaker 2>kind of bursting the bubble here a little bit. But

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<v Speaker 2>this is not Donald mcantyre, This is not police undercover

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<v Speaker 2>or any of that stuff. These are just men. This

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<v Speaker 2>is like twenty odd years ago. These are men who

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<v Speaker 2>were engaging in legal trading, you know, to get a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit extra money for themselves and their families. There's

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<v Speaker 2>no there. There were gangsters, and there was very serious violence,

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<v Speaker 2>and there were very lugrative criminal markets operating in that world.

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<v Speaker 2>But most of the people I encountered really couldn't care

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<v Speaker 2>too much about who was there, who was observing place

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<v Speaker 2>investigations of this kind of cultural environment was still in

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<v Speaker 2>their infancy. There was no consideration of why attacks or

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<v Speaker 2>you know, grasses hadn't been used in any major criminal

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<v Speaker 2>cases up where I was doing the research. And people

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<v Speaker 2>really didn't care too much whether you watched them buying

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<v Speaker 2>and selling bit Ralph Laurent shirt so you know, counterfeit

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<v Speaker 2>perfume and whatever else. They really didn't care too much.

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<v Speaker 2>Here was watching because I had people that vouch for me.

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<v Speaker 2>I was just a face and a crowd in most cases,

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<v Speaker 2>and I could cult the their friendships and never no

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<v Speaker 2>one really asked what I was doing there, And the

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<v Speaker 2>occasions where they did ask why I was there, I

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<v Speaker 2>told them the truth, yea, and sometimes they loved it,

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<v Speaker 2>you know that you know, guy's going to write a

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<v Speaker 2>book about this, you know, and they thought it was

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<v Speaker 2>funny and everything else, and it's possible that some people

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<v Speaker 2>clammed up around me. I didn't really see it, and

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<v Speaker 2>there's no way of knowing, but I didn't want to

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<v Speaker 2>get caught in a lie. Yeah, and obviously I didn't

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<v Speaker 2>want to go through and kind of begin my project

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<v Speaker 2>with that kind of moral failure of kind of manipulating people.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, was there anything ethically that you think was perhaps

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<v Speaker 1>on dodgy ground or do you think you're always open

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<v Speaker 1>no deception, safety harm, those sort of issues.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you've opened up a whole kind of worms there,

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<v Speaker 2>because they have to ask ask the academic question is

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<v Speaker 2>what do you mean by ethics? Whose ethics? Which ethical

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<v Speaker 2>system you're talking about? I certainly don't have a great

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<v Speaker 2>deal of respect for the dominant ethics of research practice

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<v Speaker 2>as it is understood in the contemporary university, which is

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<v Speaker 2>basically make sure that you protect the university from litigation. I,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, totally disinterested in that. And the obsession with,

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<v Speaker 2>for example, accumulate and consent forms just seems nuts to me.

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<v Speaker 2>Just seems a complete waste of time and an abdication

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<v Speaker 2>of our ethical duty to our research subjects, rather than

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<v Speaker 2>you know, some kind of ethical Uh, get out the

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<v Speaker 2>Jill free card or you know, the kind of top

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<v Speaker 2>quality research studies always have the you know, comprehensive forms,

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<v Speaker 2>building and triplicate whatever else. I don't go along that.

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<v Speaker 2>I think ethical research involves acting ethically. It involves treating

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<v Speaker 2>people with respect and humility and you know, engaging with

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<v Speaker 2>them honestly. And I think you don't need a form

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<v Speaker 2>to do that kind of thing.

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<v Speaker 3>I like that answer. I like that answer. That's great.

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<v Speaker 1>And what about that movement perhaps away from ethics, but practically,

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<v Speaker 1>what were the kind of obstacles that you really faced

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<v Speaker 1>with the research practically?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean that the obvious one is, especially with

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<v Speaker 2>regard to the bouncer side of this subject. I was

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<v Speaker 2>employed as a bouncer, so I had to do the

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<v Speaker 2>job that you can't just stand there and say, well, actually,

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<v Speaker 2>i'm an academic, so in this case, I'm not going

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<v Speaker 2>to get involved in And so I was, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>whenever there was a violent incident, or when there was

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<v Speaker 2>any incident that needed the attendance of bouncers at any

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<v Speaker 2>of the pubs or nightclubs I worked at, I was

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<v Speaker 2>present and involved. So I dragged lots of people out

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<v Speaker 2>I threw them roughly. I had punches in at me,

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<v Speaker 2>all kinds of things, you know, just the usual stuff

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<v Speaker 2>of I've interrupted a couple having sex in the corner.

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<v Speaker 2>I threw out people who were urinating on a gambling machine,

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<v Speaker 2>all kinds of stuff. Jesus. It was just these were

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<v Speaker 2>kind of very wild environments where everyone was crammed in.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, these places really were. I don't think there

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<v Speaker 2>was much pretension paid to all the crowding in these

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<v Speaker 2>bars and nightclubs, and everyone was pissed, and so they

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<v Speaker 2>were dangerous, edgy environments. And when you're working as a

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<v Speaker 2>bouncer in a place like that, you've got to keep

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<v Speaker 2>order as best you can. And that's certainly what I did.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, what you've just described there is and I

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<v Speaker 1>think this is why your research is so famous and

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<v Speaker 1>used throughout sort of available sotologies. You're describing the classic

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<v Speaker 1>ethnographic research, you know, getting stuck in being involved. For

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<v Speaker 1>the students listening, do you mind just describing what you

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<v Speaker 1>interpret or what you mean by ethnographic.

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<v Speaker 2>Research, Yeah, it means actually getting involved. I prefer the

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<v Speaker 2>term participant observation because it suggests you're actually participating in

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<v Speaker 2>the research culture, and that is what makes this particular

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<v Speaker 2>method particular methodology distinct. So I interviewed people as well,

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<v Speaker 2>and of course when I interviewed them, it became obvious,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I was divulging my actual occupational background, and

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<v Speaker 2>there was all that mixed in with it. But I

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<v Speaker 2>actually did the job. And because I did the job,

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<v Speaker 2>I saw the problems that my colleagues had to deal

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<v Speaker 2>with on any given night. I saw up close and

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<v Speaker 2>personal who the you know, the cast of characters were

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<v Speaker 2>gangster's coming in, those suggestions of you know, protection rackets

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<v Speaker 2>and things like that. But you also got lots of

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<v Speaker 2>drunken teenagers trying to sneak in. You've got all the people,

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<v Speaker 2>some of whom may be carrying knives. All of that.

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<v Speaker 2>That the kind of the job as it's understood by

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<v Speaker 2>the people involved doing it. You get a kind of

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<v Speaker 2>really a kind of up close and personal understanding of

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<v Speaker 2>the problems they have to deal with and how they

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<v Speaker 2>respond and why they respond in the way. There's wiz

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<v Speaker 2>that they respond.

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<v Speaker 1>And talking about those problems, the word that keeps on

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<v Speaker 1>coming out over and over again, it's word alcohol.

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<v Speaker 3>The word alcohol.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, this might sound really obvious to put it

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<v Speaker 1>this way, But is that the root cause that we're

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<v Speaker 1>seeing behind this violence is helf break of antisocial behavior.

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<v Speaker 2>No, it's always more complicated than that. Yeah, I think

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<v Speaker 2>the first thing to say is that the like the

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<v Speaker 2>nighttimeomy today has shrunken significantly from when we were doing

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<v Speaker 2>the research, and younger people are now less attached to

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<v Speaker 2>alcohol as a drug of choice and also less like,

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<v Speaker 2>less interested in inebriation. Generally speaking, it seems I think

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<v Speaker 2>it's trying to kind of grasp how cultures have changed,

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<v Speaker 2>and lots of young people at the turn of the

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<v Speaker 2>century would rush towards adulthood in a way that young

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<v Speaker 2>people that they tend not to quite the same degree

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<v Speaker 2>they want to wanted to grow up quickly. They wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to leave the parental home, establish themselves as adults, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>choose for themselves. And part of that was a traditional

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<v Speaker 2>part way to do that was to get pissed with

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<v Speaker 2>your friends and to kind of to act out in

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<v Speaker 2>ways that were in your normal everyday life. You know.

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<v Speaker 2>This allowed so alcohol gave you the opportunity to talk

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<v Speaker 2>to men or women that you normally wouldn't be able

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<v Speaker 2>to kind of summon up the carriage to talk to them.

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<v Speaker 2>Alcohol was the opportunity to dance around like an idiot

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<v Speaker 2>in ways that you never would think to behave, in

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<v Speaker 2>ways that were off the rear door. And that's what

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<v Speaker 2>the nighttime economy was. It encouraged, It invited people to

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<v Speaker 2>ditch their normal persona, to set aside their usual rules

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<v Speaker 2>of behavior and engage in this kind of hedonistic, alcohol

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<v Speaker 2>fueled environment, which for a lot of people at least

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<v Speaker 2>that going through it for the first time was just

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<v Speaker 2>incredible fun and really quite liberating, because I was really interested.

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<v Speaker 3>You mentioned right at the start about the rave scene.

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<v Speaker 1>I just wondered if there was this change, because you know,

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<v Speaker 1>late eighties nineties you kind of had the rave scene where,

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<v Speaker 1>let's be honest, drug of choice was not alcoholics ecstasy,

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<v Speaker 1>and many people said the problems and the fighting reduced then.

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<v Speaker 1>And then by the late nineties, I guess you get

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<v Speaker 1>that real lad culture, drinking culture, even sort of ladd

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<v Speaker 1>aut culture was there, kind of almost like a peak

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<v Speaker 1>of alcohol consumption around that time.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it remained fairly steady over you know, if

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<v Speaker 2>we look back at the twentieth century, but the ways

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<v Speaker 2>in which alcohol was consumed changed significantly. So the major shift,

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<v Speaker 2>especially the growth of nighttime economy, is a shift from

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<v Speaker 2>from the local boozer to city center drinking strips where

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<v Speaker 2>people would imbibe alcohol in a very different way. So

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<v Speaker 2>people got pissed. And then sixties and sixties and seventies

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<v Speaker 2>and now there were there were dance halls and whatever

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<v Speaker 2>else and venue places that they could go to, but

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of it was done in situe. So they'd

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<v Speaker 2>go to a pub and they'd sit and drink and

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<v Speaker 2>get drunk in that one place. But these the places

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00:17:59.720 --> 00:18:03.000
<v Speaker 2>were we were doing the research. It produced these kind

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00:18:03.039 --> 00:18:06.119
<v Speaker 2>of drinking strips where people would have one drink in

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<v Speaker 2>one venue and then move on to the next, and

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00:18:09.880 --> 00:18:14.119
<v Speaker 2>that kind of environment changed drinking practices quite considerably. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>not sure. I think it was probably an increase. And

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<v Speaker 2>as you say, you know, the rave culture kind of

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<v Speaker 2>for some people at least, they kind of a kind

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<v Speaker 2>of suppressed alcohol consumption at least for a little bit.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's strange. I don't think, you know, during the

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00:18:32.519 --> 00:18:35.319
<v Speaker 2>nineteen nineties they may have been an upturn, but I

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00:18:35.359 --> 00:18:39.279
<v Speaker 2>think alcohol has always been a fairly significant feature of

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00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:46.200
<v Speaker 2>working class popular culture. The you know, going back, you know,

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00:18:46.279 --> 00:18:49.519
<v Speaker 2>more than one hundred years. It's a part of especially

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00:18:49.799 --> 00:18:53.480
<v Speaker 2>part of British culture, part of how we do leisure,

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00:18:54.039 --> 00:18:56.559
<v Speaker 2>a part of how we kind of come together in

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00:18:56.599 --> 00:18:59.720
<v Speaker 2>community settings, how we get over difficulty in our lives,

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00:18:59.720 --> 00:19:04.839
<v Speaker 2>how we rushed towards pleasure in our lives, how men

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00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:08.079
<v Speaker 2>negotiate friendship. It's often very difficult. It certainly was very

304
00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:11.559
<v Speaker 2>difficult the time of the research to have any kind

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00:19:11.599 --> 00:19:16.039
<v Speaker 2>of contact with friends that wasn't in a sporting capacity,

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00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:20.720
<v Speaker 2>or wasn't didn't involve alcohol in some respect, lubricate dose,

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00:19:20.759 --> 00:19:27.880
<v Speaker 2>difficult interactions, and it had a function greatly appreciated function

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00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:29.359
<v Speaker 2>in common culture.

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00:19:31.160 --> 00:19:33.319
<v Speaker 1>And if we could move on a bit more about

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00:19:33.359 --> 00:19:35.480
<v Speaker 1>about your findings, then I know this is very difficult

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00:19:35.519 --> 00:19:38.960
<v Speaker 1>to condense a whole study into a small amount, but

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<v Speaker 1>what was there kind of a classic story of the

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<v Speaker 1>average person that became a bouncer in terms of you know, background, ethnicity, upbringing.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, where I did the research principally is certainly was

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00:19:54.799 --> 00:19:58.279
<v Speaker 2>then and still is now dominated by the white working class.

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<v Speaker 2>So all bouncers not at all. There were some ethnic

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00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:07.480
<v Speaker 2>minority bouncers who worked for the security company that I

318
00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:13.759
<v Speaker 2>worked for, but overwhelmingly big white working class men, and

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00:20:14.680 --> 00:20:17.960
<v Speaker 2>the overwhelming audience the people coming into the bars and

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00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:21.359
<v Speaker 2>clubs and whatever else, they were also working class. This

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00:20:21.519 --> 00:20:26.200
<v Speaker 2>research was done in working class cities. In order to

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00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:30.880
<v Speaker 2>get a job, you had, well, this is not a

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00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:32.799
<v Speaker 2>job that you would want to do if you didn't

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00:20:32.839 --> 00:20:36.200
<v Speaker 2>think you were capable of carrying it out. At the time,

325
00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:38.680
<v Speaker 2>things were a little bit wilder than they are now.

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<v Speaker 2>They were less regulated. There was a broad awareness that

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<v Speaker 2>violence was You would face violence if you took a

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<v Speaker 2>job as a bouncer, and if you're going to take

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00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:51.480
<v Speaker 2>that job, you better be ready to face it head on.

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<v Speaker 2>Nobody wanted you there if you were just going to

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<v Speaker 2>kind of roll up a curlub in a ball when

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<v Speaker 2>faced with you know, all the problems that bouncers have

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00:21:01.960 --> 00:21:05.359
<v Speaker 2>to engage with on any busy night. So I guess

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00:21:05.359 --> 00:21:07.799
<v Speaker 2>it's the willingness they give it a goal that is

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00:21:08.200 --> 00:21:10.759
<v Speaker 2>the real key. But obviously that in order to give

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00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:12.759
<v Speaker 2>it a go, you have to have a sense of

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00:21:12.799 --> 00:21:18.359
<v Speaker 2>confidence when it comes to kind of physical aggression. You

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00:21:18.440 --> 00:21:22.200
<v Speaker 2>have to have a kind of general sense that lots

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00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:25.799
<v Speaker 2>of people will, you know, challenge you verbally and then

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00:21:25.880 --> 00:21:29.759
<v Speaker 2>go no further. And so it's just about being you know,

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00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:33.920
<v Speaker 2>not falling to pieces in the face of violence, being

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00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:38.599
<v Speaker 2>able to I mean, there were plenty of bouncers who

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00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:42.480
<v Speaker 2>would become violent if they were faced with violence, but

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00:21:42.599 --> 00:21:44.960
<v Speaker 2>most of the bouncers I worked with would kind of

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00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:47.720
<v Speaker 2>shrug it off, and they were comfortable with it. They

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00:21:47.720 --> 00:21:51.319
<v Speaker 2>didn't start crying, they didn't run away, They weren't incredibly

347
00:21:51.359 --> 00:21:53.799
<v Speaker 2>nervous or anything like that. It was just part of

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00:21:53.880 --> 00:21:57.759
<v Speaker 2>their life and they were confident in dealing with people,

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<v Speaker 2>especially drunken people. One of the obvious things with alcohol

350
00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:07.359
<v Speaker 2>consumption and violences, your confidence goes up, tends to go

351
00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:11.279
<v Speaker 2>when you've imbibed alcohol, but your ability to carry it

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00:22:11.319 --> 00:22:14.920
<v Speaker 2>out goes right down hill rapidly. And all of the

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00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:18.839
<v Speaker 2>guys I worked with, lots of them were working out

354
00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:22.839
<v Speaker 2>regularly in gym's. Some had come from boxing, but most

355
00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:24.759
<v Speaker 2>were just kind of gyms. There was an element in

356
00:22:24.799 --> 00:22:26.960
<v Speaker 2>the UFC which is just starting the crab in at

357
00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:32.119
<v Speaker 2>the time, and they were confident. Some hard established reputations

358
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<v Speaker 2>for violence come from local communities, come from in some

359
00:22:36.799 --> 00:22:41.519
<v Speaker 2>cases criminal families, and they were you know, had a

360
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<v Speaker 2>degree of confidence in their bodily ability to face down

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00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:48.359
<v Speaker 2>these challenges that they would face. So this is the

362
00:22:48.440 --> 00:22:51.440
<v Speaker 2>kind of people that we're talking about. Often, you know,

363
00:22:51.920 --> 00:22:58.599
<v Speaker 2>nice moral family men, occasionally trading in the illegal economy.

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00:22:59.119 --> 00:23:03.200
<v Speaker 2>There was lots of kind of you know, everyone had

365
00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:05.400
<v Speaker 2>a kind of side hustle as it's called now going

366
00:23:05.440 --> 00:23:10.079
<v Speaker 2>on somewhere important cigarettes and alcohol, which is common at

367
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<v Speaker 2>the time, lots of trading in faith designer goods, lots

368
00:23:15.640 --> 00:23:21.839
<v Speaker 2>of trading in counterfeits, and of course, as the research progressed,

369
00:23:22.440 --> 00:23:25.480
<v Speaker 2>just a massive amount of drug dealer some of which

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<v Speaker 2>was really quite small, hand to hand stuff, but some

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<v Speaker 2>of the people involved that involved in the research was

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<v Speaker 2>certainly trading at the level above the street.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I did.

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<v Speaker 1>I did one that you know, you said about confidence,

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<v Speaker 1>and so I wondered how much it was about status masculinity.

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<v Speaker 3>So the terms that we use in sociology.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I certainly wouldn't want to bandy around that fridge

378
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<v Speaker 2>toxic masculinity, which really kind of is just a grotesque

379
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<v Speaker 2>simplification of how and why people behave for it kind

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00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:06.519
<v Speaker 2>of takes a phrase which is antagonistic to any reasonable

381
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<v Speaker 2>sociologist who you know, wants to look at nuance and complexity,

382
00:24:10.720 --> 00:24:15.519
<v Speaker 2>rather than simply denigrate, you know, particular forms of behavior

383
00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:18.000
<v Speaker 2>that they don't like, rather than seeking to understand them.

384
00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:20.880
<v Speaker 2>So I don't think that had anything really they do

385
00:24:20.960 --> 00:24:23.559
<v Speaker 2>with the study. I think there was a form of

386
00:24:23.640 --> 00:24:26.920
<v Speaker 2>robust masculinity which is rooted in working class culture and

387
00:24:26.960 --> 00:24:33.240
<v Speaker 2>goes back through the Industrial Revolution and back into the

388
00:24:33.279 --> 00:24:36.680
<v Speaker 2>mists of history, which you know, there were work classmen

389
00:24:36.799 --> 00:24:40.839
<v Speaker 2>were bred with that kind of sense of stoicism, desire

390
00:24:40.880 --> 00:24:46.119
<v Speaker 2>for autonomy, and these characteristic characteristics found an outlet in

391
00:24:46.160 --> 00:24:51.640
<v Speaker 2>this particular new context, very old characteristics and the new context.

392
00:24:53.240 --> 00:24:57.200
<v Speaker 2>So they were just kind of you know, I mean,

393
00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:00.799
<v Speaker 2>it wouldn't be They looked as if they would handle

394
00:25:00.839 --> 00:25:04.400
<v Speaker 2>themselves because they've been around violence a lot in their lives.

395
00:25:04.720 --> 00:25:08.240
<v Speaker 2>They were confident in the face of it. They were young,

396
00:25:08.440 --> 00:25:12.119
<v Speaker 2>they were generally bigger than the average man. They worked

397
00:25:12.119 --> 00:25:15.039
<v Speaker 2>out a lot more so, they had more muscle m

398
00:25:15.519 --> 00:25:17.559
<v Speaker 2>and some of them boxed and were very good with

399
00:25:17.599 --> 00:25:20.119
<v Speaker 2>their hands. Some of them were on UFC, and they

400
00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:25.279
<v Speaker 2>were judo enthusiasts, wrestling enthusiasts, you know, quite a broad gamut.

401
00:25:25.640 --> 00:25:27.839
<v Speaker 2>But they were all kind of men who were bodily

402
00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:32.079
<v Speaker 2>quite confident in their ability to face down challenges in

403
00:25:32.200 --> 00:25:38.160
<v Speaker 2>terms of masculinity. Obviously their men, and they're enacting particular

404
00:25:38.680 --> 00:25:43.680
<v Speaker 2>scripts about around masculinity. But I don't think there was

405
00:25:43.720 --> 00:25:49.400
<v Speaker 2>anything particularly negativistics. There was elements of sexism which were

406
00:25:49.440 --> 00:25:53.000
<v Speaker 2>far more common then, So they were, you know, kind

407
00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:57.119
<v Speaker 2>of they would comment on women passing in the street

408
00:25:57.200 --> 00:26:01.000
<v Speaker 2>and things of that kind. But they were also subject

409
00:26:01.079 --> 00:26:07.440
<v Speaker 2>to sexual assault themselves, and they would laugh about I

410
00:26:07.519 --> 00:26:11.200
<v Speaker 2>kind of. I mean, really they were grabbed and man

411
00:26:11.200 --> 00:26:14.920
<v Speaker 2>handled by women all the time. And I can remember

412
00:26:15.680 --> 00:26:19.200
<v Speaker 2>a group of male strippers who were working at this bar,

413
00:26:19.359 --> 00:26:21.640
<v Speaker 2>this kind of disco bar with a capacity about like

414
00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:24.680
<v Speaker 2>a thousand people were in there and meals. They had

415
00:26:24.680 --> 00:26:27.839
<v Speaker 2>mail strippers on and one of the jobs for the

416
00:26:28.599 --> 00:26:32.759
<v Speaker 2>for the bouncers to keep ordering this very difficult environment

417
00:26:33.279 --> 00:26:36.759
<v Speaker 2>was to get the strippers from the manager's office, which

418
00:26:36.799 --> 00:26:39.400
<v Speaker 2>is where they got changed, onto the dance floor, which

419
00:26:39.440 --> 00:26:42.799
<v Speaker 2>is where they did the act. And this was incredibly difficult.

420
00:26:42.839 --> 00:26:46.039
<v Speaker 2>And these these strippers, these poor guys, Jesus Christ, they

421
00:26:46.079 --> 00:26:50.559
<v Speaker 2>were sexually assaulted. It was impossible to keep them safe

422
00:26:50.559 --> 00:26:53.759
<v Speaker 2>between the two places, and they were grabbed and whatever else,

423
00:26:53.839 --> 00:26:57.799
<v Speaker 2>and the bouncers were also grabbed, but because of their

424
00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:01.680
<v Speaker 2>cultural background, they kind of shrugged all that stuff off.

425
00:27:01.720 --> 00:27:04.519
<v Speaker 2>They didn't start crying about being the victim of sexual assault.

426
00:27:06.079 --> 00:27:10.559
<v Speaker 2>So these are very quite old fashioned cultures. A lot

427
00:27:10.599 --> 00:27:18.160
<v Speaker 2>of the discourse we have about inappropriate sexual talk, inappropriate

428
00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:22.279
<v Speaker 2>interactions between men and women, it was all there, but

429
00:27:22.359 --> 00:27:25.079
<v Speaker 2>it was often going in both directions.

430
00:27:25.599 --> 00:27:26.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

431
00:27:26.240 --> 00:27:28.720
<v Speaker 1>I wonder even if that word would have been used,

432
00:27:28.880 --> 00:27:31.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, would they have even considered that they had

433
00:27:31.079 --> 00:27:32.799
<v Speaker 1>been sexually assaulted at that time?

434
00:27:33.799 --> 00:27:35.960
<v Speaker 2>That's just ask grabbing them and mostly, you know, they

435
00:27:36.119 --> 00:27:38.480
<v Speaker 2>kind of shrub it off and they'd make a joke

436
00:27:38.519 --> 00:27:41.880
<v Speaker 2>about it. You know, in some cases they would considered

437
00:27:42.359 --> 00:27:45.200
<v Speaker 2>a sign of flattery. It was all comedy to them,

438
00:27:45.880 --> 00:27:49.240
<v Speaker 2>and you know, they'd make light of that kind of thing. Yeah.

439
00:27:49.359 --> 00:27:52.119
<v Speaker 1>I just made a note of the robust masculinity. I've

440
00:27:52.119 --> 00:27:52.799
<v Speaker 1>not had that one before.

441
00:27:52.799 --> 00:27:53.200
<v Speaker 2>I like it.

442
00:27:53.519 --> 00:27:57.279
<v Speaker 3>I like it, Simon. I just wanted to ask you.

443
00:27:57.279 --> 00:27:59.519
<v Speaker 1>You just mentioned an event there, but I wondered if

444
00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:02.599
<v Speaker 1>there was any other events or perhaps individuals that really

445
00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:04.279
<v Speaker 1>stand out from that piece of research.

446
00:28:04.359 --> 00:28:05.759
<v Speaker 3>They're kind of really stick in your mind.

447
00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:09.599
<v Speaker 2>Sure, Yeah, well I'll tell you about the hardest thing

448
00:28:09.599 --> 00:28:12.240
<v Speaker 2>that I had to deal with is I was working

449
00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:16.880
<v Speaker 2>at a bar. It was actually quite a way away

450
00:28:16.880 --> 00:28:19.119
<v Speaker 2>from where the majority of the research was conducted, and

451
00:28:19.160 --> 00:28:21.119
<v Speaker 2>I was working with a friend of mine and we

452
00:28:21.319 --> 00:28:23.519
<v Speaker 2>traveled down to worked the door and there was just

453
00:28:23.559 --> 00:28:26.160
<v Speaker 2>a two of us working on. This wasn't a particularly

454
00:28:26.359 --> 00:28:31.079
<v Speaker 2>loud pub. It was in the city center, didn't have

455
00:28:31.079 --> 00:28:33.640
<v Speaker 2>a lot of music, and it wasn't particularly orientated towards

456
00:28:33.720 --> 00:28:37.039
<v Speaker 2>younger duringism, and it was quite an easy gig, really

457
00:28:37.160 --> 00:28:40.440
<v Speaker 2>bit boring, you know, not much going on. So we

458
00:28:40.440 --> 00:28:43.200
<v Speaker 2>were watching the street traffic as people trailed up and

459
00:28:43.240 --> 00:28:47.039
<v Speaker 2>down going about their business, lots of people out after

460
00:28:47.119 --> 00:28:51.880
<v Speaker 2>dark in the city center, and a crowd had gathered

461
00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:55.240
<v Speaker 2>just outside the bar that we were working, and girls

462
00:28:55.279 --> 00:29:00.920
<v Speaker 2>were arguing and raised voices attracted a crowd out, and

463
00:29:01.119 --> 00:29:04.480
<v Speaker 2>people kind of stopped going about their business and started

464
00:29:04.519 --> 00:29:08.160
<v Speaker 2>to watch what was unfolding. And we kind of had

465
00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:11.759
<v Speaker 2>a kind of ringside seat almost as we looked out

466
00:29:11.799 --> 00:29:15.400
<v Speaker 2>from our place at the door to the pub under

467
00:29:15.440 --> 00:29:22.039
<v Speaker 2>the main main street, and an argument there was two

468
00:29:22.039 --> 00:29:26.160
<v Speaker 2>antagonists shouting at each other, and you know, there was

469
00:29:26.200 --> 00:29:29.279
<v Speaker 2>all that kind of being, you know, from the crowd,

470
00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:34.599
<v Speaker 2>you know, making noise, trying to you know, seem shocked

471
00:29:34.599 --> 00:29:39.720
<v Speaker 2>by what was happening. And the argument stopped and one

472
00:29:39.720 --> 00:29:42.359
<v Speaker 2>of the girls turned away, and it seemed as it

473
00:29:42.400 --> 00:29:45.920
<v Speaker 2>was all over, but she picked up a bottle, a

474
00:29:46.039 --> 00:29:50.519
<v Speaker 2>brown alcohol empty alcohol bottle that was on the curb side,

475
00:29:51.000 --> 00:29:54.599
<v Speaker 2>and turned around immajorately and smashed off the girl who

476
00:29:54.680 --> 00:29:58.400
<v Speaker 2>she was arguing in the face with it. And this

477
00:29:58.519 --> 00:30:01.000
<v Speaker 2>changed the atmosphere and majorly on the street. It was

478
00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:05.680
<v Speaker 2>a terrible act of violence. Just the sound, you know,

479
00:30:05.720 --> 00:30:09.240
<v Speaker 2>everyone made a kind of intake of breath, which was

480
00:30:09.279 --> 00:30:12.839
<v Speaker 2>obviously a very serious act of violence from the moment

481
00:30:12.920 --> 00:30:18.000
<v Speaker 2>the blow was delivered. And so we'd rushed out from

482
00:30:18.039 --> 00:30:22.599
<v Speaker 2>our place to kind of catch this girl who immediately

483
00:30:22.599 --> 00:30:25.559
<v Speaker 2>had a hand clutch to her mouth, and caught her

484
00:30:25.559 --> 00:30:29.160
<v Speaker 2>and kind of brought her into the pub, and the

485
00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:33.920
<v Speaker 2>guy I was working with had first aid skills and

486
00:30:35.079 --> 00:30:37.559
<v Speaker 2>kind of gradually persuaded the girl and let her hard

487
00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:39.839
<v Speaker 2>come away from my mouth. And it was just the

488
00:30:39.839 --> 00:30:46.880
<v Speaker 2>most awful injury, ripped from nostril to mouth, teeth missing.

489
00:30:49.559 --> 00:30:53.240
<v Speaker 2>She was still fully conscious and wasn't crying. It was

490
00:30:53.279 --> 00:30:58.799
<v Speaker 2>just shocked and hadn't really come around from the you know,

491
00:30:58.839 --> 00:31:02.720
<v Speaker 2>the shot of the incident, and the police were there

492
00:31:02.799 --> 00:31:09.119
<v Speaker 2>quite quickly. I agreed to give a statement, which is unusual.

493
00:31:09.839 --> 00:31:11.519
<v Speaker 2>It was the only time that I agreed to give

494
00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:14.200
<v Speaker 2>a statement of police. And I was just reflected my

495
00:31:14.279 --> 00:31:17.960
<v Speaker 2>own cultural background, because if this had been a man,

496
00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:22.920
<v Speaker 2>I probably wouldn't have done that, and because I was

497
00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:26.640
<v Speaker 2>so shocked by what had happened, I, you know, I

498
00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:29.839
<v Speaker 2>wanted to do all I could have to help the

499
00:31:29.880 --> 00:31:33.359
<v Speaker 2>police in this in this incidentt And it turned out

500
00:31:33.400 --> 00:31:37.559
<v Speaker 2>this girl was fifteen years old and the case didn't

501
00:31:37.559 --> 00:31:39.160
<v Speaker 2>actually come to court, so I didn't have to do

502
00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:44.160
<v Speaker 2>anything really give a statement. Place came around a couple

503
00:31:44.200 --> 00:31:46.440
<v Speaker 2>of nights later and told us the fatter the matter,

504
00:31:46.519 --> 00:31:52.519
<v Speaker 2>and I lost sleep over that was That returned to

505
00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:57.079
<v Speaker 2>me quite a few times, and it prompted quite a

506
00:31:57.079 --> 00:32:02.240
<v Speaker 2>lot of rumination around ethics. H Could I have intervened sooner?

507
00:32:02.920 --> 00:32:07.599
<v Speaker 2>Is there anything I should have done differently? You know?

508
00:32:07.839 --> 00:32:11.759
<v Speaker 2>And this is real efforts, I think, not feeling in

509
00:32:11.799 --> 00:32:15.279
<v Speaker 2>a consent forms, trying to work out how one can

510
00:32:15.839 --> 00:32:20.599
<v Speaker 2>assist one's fellow human beings, rather than how satisfy a

511
00:32:20.720 --> 00:32:23.119
<v Speaker 2>kind of committee sitting in a university lecture theater.

512
00:32:25.039 --> 00:32:27.720
<v Speaker 1>Was that the kind of was that a point where

513
00:32:28.160 --> 00:32:30.240
<v Speaker 1>you stepped away from it? I mean, you know, we

514
00:32:30.279 --> 00:32:32.119
<v Speaker 1>often talk about getting into a group, but you know,

515
00:32:32.200 --> 00:32:35.440
<v Speaker 1>walking away from that study with a particular moment when that.

516
00:32:35.400 --> 00:32:39.960
<v Speaker 2>Happened, I don't think I continue to work after that.

517
00:32:40.440 --> 00:32:45.920
<v Speaker 2>The real end point came when I was working with

518
00:32:45.960 --> 00:32:51.279
<v Speaker 2>a security company there was also involved in protection rackets

519
00:32:51.359 --> 00:32:54.279
<v Speaker 2>and they got called out, we got called out. I

520
00:32:54.319 --> 00:32:56.880
<v Speaker 2>was in the night club after the fact, after finishing

521
00:32:56.960 --> 00:33:01.160
<v Speaker 2>work at a pub, and we all got in cars

522
00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:03.319
<v Speaker 2>and flew out of this pub, which was on the

523
00:33:03.400 --> 00:33:07.960
<v Speaker 2>end edge of town, and the head of the security

524
00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:12.880
<v Speaker 2>company kind of attacked this guy who he believed was

525
00:33:12.920 --> 00:33:16.519
<v Speaker 2>responsible for smashing up his public he's supposed to be protecting.

526
00:33:17.319 --> 00:33:19.480
<v Speaker 2>And then the other guys that I was working with

527
00:33:20.119 --> 00:33:22.160
<v Speaker 2>kind of joined in and he was getting hoofed around

528
00:33:22.200 --> 00:33:26.319
<v Speaker 2>the floor. This this guy, this this young guy. And

529
00:33:26.359 --> 00:33:32.839
<v Speaker 2>I said shouted immediately stop because how could you not write?

530
00:33:33.160 --> 00:33:35.759
<v Speaker 2>I mean, there was every these a big guys, powerful guys,

531
00:33:35.880 --> 00:33:38.839
<v Speaker 2>and there was every opportunity that this could have been

532
00:33:39.319 --> 00:33:41.839
<v Speaker 2>a fatality. So I had I had went to vein

533
00:33:41.920 --> 00:33:44.839
<v Speaker 2>at that point, and I did in the vein and

534
00:33:44.839 --> 00:33:48.680
<v Speaker 2>told them to stop, and they did stop. But from

535
00:33:48.680 --> 00:33:55.799
<v Speaker 2>that point onwards it became played and made it to

536
00:33:55.880 --> 00:34:00.279
<v Speaker 2>continue on with that kind of stuff was unsustained of them,

537
00:34:01.119 --> 00:34:04.519
<v Speaker 2>and it was best at that point. We had more

538
00:34:04.559 --> 00:34:07.000
<v Speaker 2>than enough data to write the book at that stage,

539
00:34:07.000 --> 00:34:10.480
<v Speaker 2>and I kind of backtracked a little and exiting was

540
00:34:10.519 --> 00:34:14.280
<v Speaker 2>far harder than entering the field. But that was the

541
00:34:14.360 --> 00:34:14.960
<v Speaker 2>end point for me.

542
00:34:16.719 --> 00:34:18.480
<v Speaker 1>This is going to sound a bizarre question based on

543
00:34:18.519 --> 00:34:20.840
<v Speaker 1>the last two stories you just told, but did.

544
00:34:20.639 --> 00:34:21.159
<v Speaker 2>You enjoy it?

545
00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:22.320
<v Speaker 3>Did you enjoy the work?

546
00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:29.280
<v Speaker 2>H There were moments of you know, fun, Like some

547
00:34:29.320 --> 00:34:31.320
<v Speaker 2>of the guys I worked with a really good company

548
00:34:31.360 --> 00:34:33.199
<v Speaker 2>and they'd make great jokes and I'd spend a lot

549
00:34:33.239 --> 00:34:36.159
<v Speaker 2>of time four hour shift or whatever. It was just

550
00:34:36.159 --> 00:34:40.760
<v Speaker 2>just laughing, right, you know, just great, great fun. I

551
00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:43.480
<v Speaker 2>was still a young guy at the time, you know,

552
00:34:43.519 --> 00:34:46.480
<v Speaker 2>it was a nice environment to spend timing. I didn't

553
00:34:46.559 --> 00:34:51.840
<v Speaker 2>enjoy the violence at all. And you know, some of

554
00:34:51.880 --> 00:34:57.280
<v Speaker 2>the professional criminals that spent time with were we're pretty

555
00:34:57.280 --> 00:34:59.559
<v Speaker 2>good company, and I enjoyed that aspect. But it's u

556
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:02.639
<v Speaker 2>you know, I think this is the thing kind of

557
00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:05.039
<v Speaker 2>research project you do on the weekend, but this was

558
00:35:05.079 --> 00:35:08.480
<v Speaker 2>a like a full time this was my life, but

559
00:35:08.639 --> 00:35:11.760
<v Speaker 2>kind of the best part of the year. And then

560
00:35:11.760 --> 00:35:14.400
<v Speaker 2>there were interviews and whatever. Old that stretched it out

561
00:35:14.480 --> 00:35:17.360
<v Speaker 2>around two years of worth of research. And so it's

562
00:35:17.440 --> 00:35:21.519
<v Speaker 2>like any you know, if you look back on your youth,

563
00:35:22.039 --> 00:35:24.880
<v Speaker 2>there will be high points and down points and points

564
00:35:24.920 --> 00:35:28.480
<v Speaker 2>of regret and you know, points that you return to

565
00:35:28.800 --> 00:35:30.960
<v Speaker 2>as you get nostalgic, you know, all the rest of

566
00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:33.480
<v Speaker 2>that kind of stuff. So it's just I've integrated all

567
00:35:33.519 --> 00:35:38.079
<v Speaker 2>of that into my biography, and you know, I'm content

568
00:35:39.039 --> 00:35:42.079
<v Speaker 2>that I did a good job. But the research that

569
00:35:42.119 --> 00:35:46.079
<v Speaker 2>we conducted was worthwhile and we extended knowledge, which was

570
00:35:46.119 --> 00:35:47.920
<v Speaker 2>the reason why we did it in the first place.

571
00:35:49.880 --> 00:35:53.400
<v Speaker 2>I think I did reveal some important truths about how

572
00:35:53.480 --> 00:35:58.199
<v Speaker 2>people live and how illegal markets are organized and the

573
00:35:58.280 --> 00:36:03.039
<v Speaker 2>role of violence in those markets. And I'm quite kind

574
00:36:03.079 --> 00:36:08.920
<v Speaker 2>of quietly confident that I did my part in contributing

575
00:36:08.960 --> 00:36:13.320
<v Speaker 2>to the development of our intellectual life and no disciplines.

576
00:36:14.679 --> 00:36:18.280
<v Speaker 1>Definitely, definitely, And in that respect, you know, if if

577
00:36:18.559 --> 00:36:21.400
<v Speaker 1>listeners want to find out more about the research, and

578
00:36:21.800 --> 00:36:23.760
<v Speaker 1>how can they find out more about the study.

579
00:36:24.800 --> 00:36:27.960
<v Speaker 2>Well there are two books. Uh, you should be able

580
00:36:28.000 --> 00:36:31.679
<v Speaker 2>to get them at any college university library. You get

581
00:36:31.679 --> 00:36:34.320
<v Speaker 2>them for very cheaply on the on Amazon these days

582
00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:36.920
<v Speaker 2>because they're quite all books. But the book that I

583
00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:41.239
<v Speaker 2>wrote is called Badfellas, and the book I wrote with

584
00:36:41.280 --> 00:36:45.119
<v Speaker 2>Dick Hobbs Stuart Lister in Phil Hartfield is called Bouncers.

585
00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:48.840
<v Speaker 1>And yeah, is what you're working on at the moment?

586
00:36:48.960 --> 00:36:50.559
<v Speaker 1>On what what's your current research.

587
00:36:51.480 --> 00:36:55.719
<v Speaker 2>I've just written a book about nostalgia and how people

588
00:36:55.800 --> 00:37:00.199
<v Speaker 2>experience nostalgia and the role of nostalgia in develop in

589
00:37:00.199 --> 00:37:03.320
<v Speaker 2>forms of working class politics. I'm especially interested in how

590
00:37:04.960 --> 00:37:11.320
<v Speaker 2>people on the far right utilize nostalgic imagery in formulating

591
00:37:11.320 --> 00:37:13.440
<v Speaker 2>their politics. Thank you.

592
00:37:13.480 --> 00:37:15.320
<v Speaker 3>And if people want to find out more about you,

593
00:37:15.639 --> 00:37:18.119
<v Speaker 3>can they follow you on x or instacrat.

594
00:37:18.639 --> 00:37:22.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm on Twitter. I don't tweet much, but whatever

595
00:37:22.079 --> 00:37:24.840
<v Speaker 2>it is. Yeah x now, yeah, you can get me

596
00:37:26.519 --> 00:37:29.159
<v Speaker 2>portion a few things that I've read and think we're interesting,

597
00:37:29.199 --> 00:37:31.840
<v Speaker 2>So please do well.

598
00:37:31.840 --> 00:37:33.239
<v Speaker 3>Thank you very much for your time, Tim, and I

599
00:37:33.280 --> 00:37:35.519
<v Speaker 3>really really appreciate it lovely.

600
00:37:35.719 --> 00:37:36.960
<v Speaker 2>Thanks nice to make you.

601
00:37:38.920 --> 00:37:42.719
<v Speaker 4>The Sociology Show podcast now offers online tutoring. Whether you

602
00:37:42.760 --> 00:37:45.360
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603
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604
00:37:48.400 --> 00:37:50.519
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605
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606
00:37:55.880 --> 00:38:00.639
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607
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608
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