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Speaker 5: You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking
Speaker 5: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VCK. Every
Speaker 5: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 5: infamous killers in true crime history, True Murder, with your
Speaker 5: host journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Speaker 6: Good Evening. This is Dan Zupanski for the program True Murder,
Speaker 6: the most shocking killers in true crime history and the
Speaker 6: authors that have written about them. Laurie's show was as
Speaker 6: compassionate as she was hardworking. The outgoing high school junior
Speaker 6: work part time to pay for the home she and
Speaker 6: her divorce mother shared, yet she always had time to
Speaker 6: tutor friends struggling in school, and she befriended a dejected
Speaker 6: classmate after his traumatic breakup with his pregnant longtime girlfriend,
Speaker 6: Michelle Lambert. But soon things spiraled into jealous obsession, stalking,
Speaker 6: and a brutal attack that left Laurie murdered in her
Speaker 6: own bedroom, and once Michelle started telling one lie too many,
Speaker 6: the ensuing investigation shattered a peaceful community. Noted crime writer
Speaker 6: Lynn Riddle also brings you the latest updates on Michelle Lambert,
Speaker 6: her accomplishments, accomplices, and those involved this in this Unforgettable case.
Speaker 6: The book thisce Evening that we're featuring is Overkill with
Speaker 6: my special guest, journalist and author Lynn Riddle, welcome to
Speaker 6: the program, and thank you to agreeing to this interview.
Speaker 6: Lynn Riddle, Thank you Dan for having me. Thank you
Speaker 6: very much. This is one twisting and turning story, Sodey.
Speaker 6: You think you've got what's happening here, there's another twist
Speaker 6: in turn and lie, in deception and retrial. So it's
Speaker 6: very interesting. Now let's start off right off the bat, really,
Speaker 6: because we need to describe the community this Lancaster County.
Speaker 6: We need to talk about that this is first off,
Speaker 6: tell us what kind of religious community it is and
Speaker 6: as a result of that type of religion in reality,
Speaker 6: what kind of community are we talking about here where
Speaker 6: this tragedy occurred. So set the stage, give us kind
Speaker 6: of an idea of what this community is really like.
Speaker 6: And before we start getting into the story in any detail.
Speaker 7: Well, this is small town Pennsylvania, the Amish country. The
Speaker 7: people that were involved in this particular crime were not
Speaker 7: among the Amish community, but certainly influenced by this. It
Speaker 7: was a very peaceful community when this crime occurred. There
Speaker 7: had not been a murder in the community for more
Speaker 7: than a decade, so this was not you know, this
Speaker 7: was this is just that kind of you call it
Speaker 7: kind of beautiful rolling hills part of Pennsylvania where you know,
Speaker 7: you think that you're safe at night and and you
Speaker 7: know something is not going to happen to your teenage
Speaker 7: daughter in her bedroom.
Speaker 6: Right now, Laurie show. Tell us about, first off, where
Speaker 6: she lived and what age were we talking about this
Speaker 6: woman being We alluded to in the show synopsis. But
Speaker 6: tell us about what Laurie's show was at this age.
Speaker 6: What she was doing is she was a junior in
Speaker 6: high school. Tell her age, what she looked like, what
Speaker 6: was there life like? Tell us about her parents, tell
Speaker 6: us about her life a little bit.
Speaker 7: Well, Laurie's show was a lot like most teenagers. I
Speaker 7: mean this this crime occurred twenty years ago, and so
Speaker 7: you know that makes it even more shocking the you know,
Speaker 7: the time period that it took place. But Laurie was
Speaker 7: a girl who liked to have fun. She was you know,
Speaker 7: very close to her parents. Not to say that she
Speaker 7: was a perfect child by any means. I mean, she
Speaker 7: had gone through a wild period. And in fact, the
Speaker 7: time that she ended up with these people that caused
Speaker 7: her harm, you know that was not a pleasant moment
Speaker 7: for her family. Her parents had divorced and but yet
Speaker 7: she remained very close to her father, wonderful caring man
Speaker 7: who was very involved as that she is the only
Speaker 7: child in this family. She and her mother were living
Speaker 7: in an apartment that, as it turned out, was right
Speaker 7: across the street from one of the people who ended
Speaker 7: up being a detective on this case, one of the investigators,
Speaker 7: and they were friendly and the herr. Laurie worked a
Speaker 7: you know, work jobs so that she could basically help
Speaker 7: her mother afford this really nice apartment. Her mother was
Speaker 7: working as a nurse's aide at the time, her father
Speaker 7: worked for a delivery company, and you know, just hard working,
Speaker 7: regular folks.
Speaker 6: And what kind of relationship did did the three of them? Have?
Speaker 6: You said that she stay close with her with her
Speaker 6: father and with her mother, but in real terms, how
Speaker 6: close was that relationship, How intimate were they how close
Speaker 6: a family? And how well adjusted was Laurie at that time?
Speaker 8: What kind of person was she? Well?
Speaker 7: I think that Laurie was a very giving person. She
Speaker 7: was someone who you know, never was too busy to
Speaker 7: help somebody that needed help. She was a you know,
Speaker 7: pretty good student. She had the idea that she would
Speaker 7: one day go to Penn State. That was always her
Speaker 7: favorite school. She wore Penn States shirts all the time,
Speaker 7: and and she and her father had invect just the
Speaker 7: night before she was murdered, had been out to dinner together.
Speaker 7: She kept in really close close touch with her father,
Speaker 7: had the kind of relationship with her mother where I think,
Speaker 7: for a time, as is common with teenagers, I mean
Speaker 7: I think that they you know, had their moments of
Speaker 7: you know, her mother had moments of frustration with her, certainly,
Speaker 7: and she with her mother, but at this particular moment
Speaker 7: in time, they were very close. And Laurie confided a
Speaker 7: lot in her mother. And her mother is a very
Speaker 7: very kind woman, who very caring, and like I said,
Speaker 7: she was a nurse's age. She worked, She's always worked
Speaker 7: in jobs where you you know, where you had to
Speaker 7: be around people and where they she could interact with people,
Speaker 7: very personable, and Laurie was very much the same way.
Speaker 7: Laurie's very personable person A cute girl, you know, a tall,
Speaker 7: kind of statuesque girl, curly blonde hair, just a just
Speaker 7: a all round athletic, you know, young woman looking forward
Speaker 7: to her life, hoping to go to Penn State one day.
Speaker 6: Right now, let's before we get into anything else. Let's
Speaker 6: talk about a couple of the other characters. Uh, let's
Speaker 6: first talk about this Butch youngkin and and tell us
Speaker 6: a little bit about him. Tell Um tell Us tell
Speaker 6: our aunts a little bit about him and his family
Speaker 6: life and what what was he like in his aspirations.
Speaker 7: I'm not really certain that Butch had too many aspirations.
Speaker 7: You know, he wasn't a particularly good student. He had
Speaker 7: a very caring mother. I spent a good bit of
Speaker 7: a good a good bit of time with her, in fact,
Speaker 7: when I was working on this book, and she was
Speaker 7: very involved in his life. And his father left when
Speaker 7: he was a baby, and his mother remarried, and that man,
Speaker 7: his stepfather, adopted him and took him considered him his
Speaker 7: own child. I mean, there was no difference. They ended
Speaker 7: up having another child, and there was there was no
Speaker 7: difference between the way that he treated Butch in the
Speaker 7: way that he treated the the new baby. Just a
Speaker 7: you know, the working class family that you know tried
Speaker 7: to do the best they could. Butch was a you know,
Speaker 7: I think it's interesting because it's hard to it's it's
Speaker 7: one of those situations where it depends on who you believe,
Speaker 7: you know, whether Butch was this horrible, abusive, mean guy
Speaker 7: or he was you know that he had basically been
Speaker 7: hand picked and controlled by his girlfriend. That's that's how
Speaker 7: he would present himself and has his mother would tell
Speaker 7: the story. But there are many people who would say, no,
Speaker 7: I saw him hit Michelle, you know, Lisa Michelle Lambert,
Speaker 7: I saw him be angry. You know, certainly Hazel's show
Speaker 7: and John's show believe him to be a very mean spirited, difficult,
Speaker 7: angry young man.
Speaker 6: Yeah, but the allegations, even beyond you know, accomplice, the
Speaker 6: sexual the sexual charges are very very.
Speaker 8: Very severe too.
Speaker 7: So absolutely, but you know, he says he didn't do it,
Speaker 7: you know, and and he was never charged with with
Speaker 7: raping either person, you know either. You know, Laurie had
Speaker 7: made the allegations that he raped her, and so did
Speaker 7: Lisa Michelle, but that has never been proved. You know,
Speaker 7: it certainly has been testified to in court. But you know,
Speaker 7: he he knows he's you know, and Lisa Michelle certainly
Speaker 7: know the truth. But beyond that, I'm not certain that
Speaker 7: the rest of us do.
Speaker 6: The thing was interesting, and I'm not trying to.
Speaker 7: Make I'm not trying to make him seem like, you know,
Speaker 7: he was the next door neighbor and I wish I
Speaker 7: lived next door to him or anything like that. I'm
Speaker 7: not trying to do that either, but but you know,
Speaker 7: his family would would make him out to be a
Speaker 7: you know, okay guy. But you know, it is the
Speaker 7: courts have certainly considered that he, you know, wasn't accomplished
Speaker 7: to this murder. That he and Lisa Michelle would tell
Speaker 7: you that he actually was there and took part in
Speaker 7: the murder. So there's all sorts of pieces of this
Speaker 7: story that you know, everybody's telling a different tale and
Speaker 7: having to unravel that is a difficult proposition.
Speaker 6: What I just found interesting was, and it was just baffle,
Speaker 6: is that Butch that we don't really get a good idea,
Speaker 6: like you say, of who exactly is because there's so
Speaker 6: many there's so many different versions of what happened. But
Speaker 6: he allegedly had raped Laurie and then much later Michelle
Speaker 6: alleges that he had raped and it raped her.
Speaker 7: Now, I just think on their first dates, both two
Speaker 7: on their first dates, first date with Michelle.
Speaker 6: Why it just seemed that Michelle, because she seems to
Speaker 6: be when we're jumping ahead here, But at least there's many,
Speaker 6: very many versions of stories that happened at different at
Speaker 6: both trials. But we're also talking about that the allegation
Speaker 6: at least comes up much later, no matter the date
Speaker 6: that she said had happened, but it comes up much later.
Speaker 6: So that seems to be convenient. But in your research
Speaker 6: yourself in this book, don't you do not find any
Speaker 6: evidence that Butch is inclined to be a rapist?
Speaker 8: Do?
Speaker 7: Well? He's never been charged with that crime, and so
Speaker 7: you know, legally you can't say, oh, yeah, I think
Speaker 7: he did this. But you know, the Show family certainly
Speaker 7: believes their daughter in her allegations. You know, they they
Speaker 7: did not choose to file charges against him before Laurie
Speaker 7: was murdered, and you know that's you know, that kind
Speaker 7: of enters into the story because it would give you know,
Speaker 7: by saying that the possibility existed that he was going
Speaker 7: to be charged with rape, that that would give him
Speaker 7: reason to want to kill her and I and so
Speaker 7: I think that you know, that was something that that
Speaker 7: Lisa Michelle and her lawyers, you know, latched onto. I
Speaker 7: have reason to not believe the Show family. You know,
Speaker 7: they're wonderful people who I again, I spent a great
Speaker 7: deal of time with them, and you know, so I
Speaker 7: don't have any reason to not believe them, But all
Speaker 7: I can say is he's not been charged with that crime.
Speaker 6: At that time.
Speaker 8: Why did they decide not to pursue it.
Speaker 7: I think that that there was an a certain amount
Speaker 7: of embarrassment. You know, they wanted to protect their daughter.
Speaker 7: She was already being harassed by Butch and Lisa Michelle Lambert,
Speaker 7: and so I think that they were really afraid to
Speaker 7: pursue that, and Laurie really didn't want to do it,
Speaker 7: and so I think her family, you know, her parents
Speaker 7: just sort of deferred to her wishes, and you know,
Speaker 7: you know, again, I mean this was some time ago,
Speaker 7: and and you know, the idea of bringing a sixteen
Speaker 7: year old into court and having to undergo all that
Speaker 7: kind of scrutiny, I think the family just wanted to
Speaker 7: put it aside. You know, let's just you know, we're
Speaker 7: going to get our daughter the help that she needs,
Speaker 7: and we're gonna, we know, we're going to be with
Speaker 7: her and support her. But let's just leave that in
Speaker 7: the past and move on, and hopefully these people will
Speaker 7: leave us alone.
Speaker 6: But that information did come to their attention via their daughter.
Speaker 8: Am I correct?
Speaker 6: And that's that's why that there is That's why I
Speaker 6: wanted to raise that point about Butch having that information
Speaker 6: because that was part of later what he says there
Speaker 6: was a reason, and that's part.
Speaker 8: Of the motive or rationale for this.
Speaker 7: Right.
Speaker 6: Okay, Let well, were we jumped ahead just like we
Speaker 6: had mentioned that we would. But let's go back a
Speaker 6: little bit because obviously that there's a couple other characters
Speaker 6: involved here. But let's get to Michelle Lambert.
Speaker 8: Who is she? How old is she?
Speaker 6: Tell us everything about her and her background before we
Speaker 6: get too far into the story.
Speaker 7: Michelle is in her late teens, just a slight bit
Speaker 7: older than Laurie at the time, and she came from
Speaker 7: a very religious family, you know, very structured. You know.
Speaker 7: She in fact says that at one point that because
Speaker 7: because Butch raped her and that he was the first
Speaker 7: person that she had had sex with, that that meant
Speaker 7: he had to be the one that she would marry.
Speaker 7: That that was her upbringing. And at the she had
Speaker 7: some you know, good relationships with her family and then
Speaker 7: had you know, had been estranged at the time that
Speaker 7: this happened. Her parents were not speaking to her. They
Speaker 7: they had you know, they they were of all these families.
Speaker 7: I mean, they were more a little bit more well
Speaker 7: to do than the others, and had a really lovely
Speaker 7: house and had I think two sons, as I recall,
Speaker 7: and then had had several miscarriages. That that Lisa Michelle
Speaker 7: And I keep calling her Lisa Michelle because sometimes she
Speaker 7: was Michelle and sometimes she was Lisa, which you know,
Speaker 7: was all part of her psychosis, I think. But but
Speaker 7: she was you know, I mean, had a you know,
Speaker 7: pretty regular upbringing. But she did focus very much on
Speaker 7: the loss of these children. She considered the you know
Speaker 7: that they were members of the family. I mean, if
Speaker 7: anybody asked her, she would say, oh my, you know what,
Speaker 7: we have five in our family, you know, including the
Speaker 7: two miscarriages. So you know, I mean she had some
Speaker 7: some issues. She had some things going on in her head.
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Speaker 6: As a young young woman, and we're Michelle Lambert's parents.
Speaker 6: They were, you say, at this time, around this time,
Speaker 6: they were not supportive. They knew her, their daughter was pregnant.
Speaker 6: What were they most disappointed with? I mean, obviously they're
Speaker 6: very religious, so they're just appointed with that. Tell us
Speaker 6: that to the extent that they were disappointed and why.
Speaker 7: Well, they were disappointed in her relationship with Butch Youngkin,
Speaker 7: knowing that you know, that she had had sex with him,
Speaker 7: and that that and that, and that that he had
Speaker 7: been that he had been abusive toward her, that they
Speaker 7: say that they saw him hit her. And at that point,
Speaker 7: you know, it was that was it. They didn't, you know,
Speaker 7: they if she was not going to leave him, she
Speaker 7: was going to remain in a relationship like that, then
Speaker 7: they didn't you know, they didn't approve it, and they
Speaker 7: didn't want to have anything to do with her at
Speaker 7: the time right before this, you know, at the time
Speaker 7: when when she became estrange with her parents, she wasn't
Speaker 7: pregnant and they didn't know that. And it was only
Speaker 7: just a short, very short period of time before Laurie
Speaker 7: Show was murdered that mis I found out that she
Speaker 7: was pregnant. So I think, you know, and I mean,
Speaker 7: I'm jumping ahead again, but I mean, you know, once
Speaker 7: the family learned that there was a child and that
Speaker 7: there was this situation and that their daughter was in
Speaker 7: this you know, grave situation, they did rally around and
Speaker 7: they you know, they went to a trial and and
Speaker 7: and they raised her child.
Speaker 6: Right now, what what what we haven't really described what youngkin?
Speaker 6: What's his size? Is he imposing figure? Does he look
Speaker 6: like a mean nasty guy?
Speaker 8: What? What does he really look like?
Speaker 7: Well, he's a I think you know, if you looked
Speaker 7: at him, then you would think that he certainly was
Speaker 7: an imposing guy. And he was big, he was muscular,
Speaker 7: he was he he had he was attractive, you know,
Speaker 7: and and kind of I mean he had long string
Speaker 7: of hair, but I mean he had very chisel, you know,
Speaker 7: good looks, blonde. You know, he was somebody who if
Speaker 7: he walked into a room, you know, many women would
Speaker 7: turn around and look at him.
Speaker 8: Okay.
Speaker 7: And you know, similarly, Michelle, you know, was a very
Speaker 7: pretty pretty girl. I mean blonde, long blonde hair, and
Speaker 7: you know, not particularly petite, but not I mean, she
Speaker 7: wasn't overweight by any means. I mean, she was just
Speaker 7: kind of an average height. And you know, they made
Speaker 7: quite a nice, you know, nice looking couple, the two
Speaker 7: of them.
Speaker 6: And then we talked about the longtime girlfriend. So how
Speaker 6: long had they been going out with each other at
Speaker 6: this point we're talking the summer of we'll say, summer
Speaker 6: of nineteen ninety one.
Speaker 7: I am really not recalling, to be perfectly honest. I
Speaker 7: mean it had been sometime. It had been more than
Speaker 7: a year or so, I think, and and you know
Speaker 7: which in a teenage relationship, that's a long time.
Speaker 8: Oh yeah, certainly.
Speaker 7: But I mean Michelle considered him to be her the
Speaker 7: love of her life. I mean she thought he was it.
Speaker 7: And you know when they when they broke up, she
Speaker 7: was devastated. I mean there's no doubt about that that
Speaker 7: you know that he he want, you know, he was
Speaker 7: somebody that she wanted to have a relationship with for
Speaker 7: the rest of her life.
Speaker 6: Why did they break up in that spring summer.
Speaker 8: Nineteen ninety one? What was what was the reason?
Speaker 7: Well, they I think that they you know, they were
Speaker 7: not getting along. They were he Butch thought that she
Speaker 7: that she was cheating on him, and that he had
Speaker 7: got you know, he had met Laurie by that point,
Speaker 7: and I think he was interested in her. So I
Speaker 7: think that there were a lot of reasons. You know
Speaker 7: that that just you know, in that kind of emotional
Speaker 7: upheaval of you know, and I hate to say young love,
Speaker 7: because this was this was not your the kind of
Speaker 7: relationship that you would hope for your children. You know,
Speaker 7: this was a constant bickering, fighting, abusive, you know, people controlling,
Speaker 7: trying to control each other, Lisa, Michelle and Butch. You know,
Speaker 7: some of Butch's friends would say, well, you know Michelle
Speaker 7: is too controlling, she's she's trying, you know, Butch's hindpack now.
Speaker 7: And then you know, her friends would say, well, look
Speaker 7: at what he's done to her. And she infected. I mean,
Speaker 7: she changed her entire appearance for him. She dyed her hair,
Speaker 7: she got contact lenses to change her eye color. She
Speaker 7: wore lots and lots of makeup, which he liked, and
Speaker 7: skimpy clothes because he liked that. So, I mean, there
Speaker 7: was a you know, if you based on what people
Speaker 7: look like and how they're reacting to a relationship, you
Speaker 7: would have to say that Butch had more control over
Speaker 7: her than she did him, just because of the fact
Speaker 7: that she completely reinvented herself. And at that point, you know,
Speaker 7: she was Lisa Lambert to her family before that, and
Speaker 7: when he met her, he said, I don't like the
Speaker 7: name Lisa. What's your middle name? And she said Michelle
Speaker 7: And he said, well, you're Michelle now, and she was.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's controlling, for sure. And at this point, she's
Speaker 6: pregnant and this is the love of her life and
Speaker 6: he's a controlling figure. And he's a chiseled, handsome man
Speaker 6: and a real catch. So she's very emotional at this
Speaker 6: point obviously. And then what does Laurie know, Actually you
Speaker 6: said they had already met at that point, But does
Speaker 6: she know she's breaking up this relationship or does he
Speaker 6: tell her that the relationship is about what's the premise
Speaker 6: of them actually getting together in that summer?
Speaker 7: I think that he he tells her that, you know,
Speaker 7: this is not working out, that he is going to
Speaker 7: leave her. They don't know she's pregnant yet, and then
Speaker 7: they you know, he kind of praise on that sympathetic
Speaker 7: character that Laurie is, you know that let me tell
Speaker 7: you my problems, Okay, I'll listen. And and so, I
Speaker 7: you know, I think that was just one of those,
Speaker 7: you know, horribly difficult situations in somebody's life, you know,
Speaker 7: where you think, well, I want to befriend him, and
Speaker 7: poor guy, he's look at he's you know, he's lost this.
Speaker 7: He thinks this girl of longtime girlfriend is cheating on
Speaker 7: him and he's distressed and I want to help him.
Speaker 7: And then you know what her story is that you know,
Speaker 7: they go out on a date, he rapes her on
Speaker 7: the very first date. And why these women stay with
Speaker 7: these men is that's a you know, that's a question.
Speaker 7: You know that there would many people would love to
Speaker 7: have the answer to that, but and particularly with Laurie,
Speaker 7: that's something that's always puzzled me because I didn't have
Speaker 7: the idea that she was such a pushover. You I
Speaker 7: never had the idea that she was somebody who would
Speaker 7: just kind of hang on because she couldn't get anybody else.
Speaker 7: She had other boyfriends, you know, Michelle was that's a
Speaker 7: different story. You know, I think that you know, the
Speaker 7: psychological aspects of that are a little bit easier to understand.
Speaker 7: Why she would go back with him, why she would
Speaker 7: stay with him even though he hit her and you know,
Speaker 7: made her be something that she really wasn't. But you know,
Speaker 7: it only lasted with Lorie. And this is the most
Speaker 7: tragic part of the of you know, beyond the fact
Speaker 7: that this vibrant, interesting young woman is dead. This was
Speaker 7: a ten day relationship that she had with but chunkin
Speaker 7: ten days and when her parents learned that she that
Speaker 7: Lisa Michelle Lambert was pregnant. Her parents put it, you know,
Speaker 7: the shows, put an end to this and said, you
Speaker 7: go work this out with your ex girlfriend and leave
Speaker 7: Laurie alone.
Speaker 8: And what did he say?
Speaker 7: That's okay, yeah, okay, I will he did, and she
Speaker 7: took him back, and she took him back, and she
Speaker 7: convinced them as she wanted him back, and you know,
Speaker 7: she convinced him that these stories about her being involved
Speaker 7: with other men or another man, that they were untrue.
Speaker 7: He believed her. And then, you know, rather than just
Speaker 7: moving on with your life and having a baby and
Speaker 7: you know, getting a job and working and having this life,
Speaker 7: then they proceeded. Butch and Laurie proceeded, I mean not
Speaker 7: Butch and Lisa Michelle proceeded to make Laurie's life miserable
Speaker 7: and harassed her and stalked her and you know, just
Speaker 7: made her terrified about what was going to happen. Next.
Speaker 6: Now introduced the other character to this tragedy, and her
Speaker 6: name is Tabitha. Tell us about Tabitha and where she
Speaker 6: had just recently come from and how she got entwined
Speaker 6: with these people, and again on what premise did she
Speaker 6: get involved with these people?
Speaker 7: Well, Tabitha Buck was a young woman who had moved
Speaker 7: moved to Pennsylvania with her mother from the West coast there.
Speaker 7: Her family was originally from Oregon, and she had a
Speaker 7: very tough upbringing, I mean times where her family lived
Speaker 7: in tents. Her father was a war veteran and was
Speaker 7: you know, I I'm certain today they would call it,
Speaker 7: you know, PTSD that he had, and he you know,
Speaker 7: moved from job to job. They moved around a lot,
Speaker 7: and so she never really had a sense of home,
Speaker 7: you know, a sense of roots, one living in one place.
Speaker 7: And she and her mother, her mother had remarried and
Speaker 7: moved back to Pennsylvania where her where she had relatives,
Speaker 7: and so she'd only been there just a very short
Speaker 7: period of time, and you know, meets these these people
Speaker 7: and gets to be friends with them and and kind
Speaker 7: of takes up, uh, Lisa's Lisa, Michelle's honor almost, you know, like, well,
Speaker 7: she's my she's my friend. I'm going to I'm going
Speaker 7: to say mean things to you too, you know, in
Speaker 7: a in a childish way. So she's you know, so
Speaker 7: she's part of the taunting, part of the stalking of
Speaker 7: of Laurie show, and you know, just to kind of
Speaker 7: support her her friend. You know, why Lisa Michelle was
Speaker 7: so focused on Laurie and just this very brief time
Speaker 7: that her boyfriend was with another woman is you know,
Speaker 7: is a puzzle. She just couldn't let it go. And
Speaker 7: I think that, you know, from what I have been told,
Speaker 7: I think that Butch kind of fed that a little
Speaker 7: bit in that sort of mean way that people can be.
Speaker 7: You know, well, if you're not going to do what
Speaker 7: I say to do, well maybe I'll just go back
Speaker 7: to Laurie. You know, Laurie wouldn't act like that, and
Speaker 7: so I mean he did, you know, Giger a little bit,
Speaker 7: you know, to to kind of heighten this, and I
Speaker 7: think that that was that was appealing to him, you know,
Speaker 7: to know that somebody cared about him that much that
Speaker 7: she would get all riled up and worried and jealous
Speaker 7: about this this other woman who he had no intention
Speaker 7: of being with or that or that she had no
Speaker 7: intention of being with him, and her parents certainly wouldn't
Speaker 7: have let that happen. You know, they got to the
Speaker 7: place that that there was so much you know, phone calls,
Speaker 7: threatening phone calls, Butch and Lisa, Michelle going to Laurie's workplace.
Speaker 7: There was so much interaction that they never let her
Speaker 7: be alone. If she was out in public, she had
Speaker 7: to be with someone. She had to be either with
Speaker 7: her you know, and she did have a boyfriend at
Speaker 7: this point, and you know, or she had to be
Speaker 7: with her father or her mother or someone, you know,
Speaker 7: an uncle someone, because they were frightened about what would happen.
Speaker 6: Well, I think you're given too much credit to Butch here,
Speaker 6: because Butch is the big instigator here completely, because I
Speaker 6: could see Michelle, especially in an emotional state, and given
Speaker 6: everything to describe about her background, that she would she
Speaker 6: might react like this. Tabitha again, is you know, understandable
Speaker 6: to a certain extent. You know, you know, I was
Speaker 6: seventeen once. So the thing is though that Butch must
Speaker 6: have be able to get back in this relationship. He
Speaker 6: must have said some things that were outright lies about Laurie.
Speaker 6: Maybe he felt insulted about the parents telling him, you know, go,
Speaker 6: and then maybe there was something to her claiming that
Speaker 6: she had been raped by him, so that he he
Speaker 6: fed more into this. But he was he's the most
Speaker 6: responsible as far as I'm concerned, because he could have
Speaker 6: he must have fed her a certain amount of lives
Speaker 6: and went along with everything, including this. Like I say,
Speaker 6: this is far more than harassment when you've got death
Speaker 6: threats on the phone and everything that they did. How
Speaker 6: long were we talking about this taunting and humiliation and
Speaker 6: how far did it escalate before this the twenty first?
Speaker 8: At what point was it.
Speaker 7: Gaining about the go ahead?
Speaker 6: I'm sorry, I'm sorry, And I also wanted to say
Speaker 6: you said that Laurie always you know, Laurie was very
Speaker 6: close with her mother and confided. Was Laurie's parents knew
Speaker 6: about all of this all along?
Speaker 7: Yes, and you know they were they knew when ever,
Speaker 7: you know, Lisa or but showed up at her work.
Speaker 7: I mean they were the first person that she called,
Speaker 7: one of her parents. It went on for about six months,
Speaker 7: and they would, you know, like I said, they would call,
Speaker 7: they would show up at her work. And you know,
Speaker 7: there have been there was a time when Tabitha hit Lorie.
Speaker 7: They got into kind of a you know, a little
Speaker 7: scuffle in the middle of a mall, you know, so
Speaker 7: it it had escalated to the point that that the
Speaker 7: family was so concerned that you know that they made
Speaker 7: sure that she was never alone. And you know, unfortunately,
Speaker 7: the I think Michelle knew that. They knew that if
Speaker 7: she was going, you know, if she was ever going
Speaker 7: to do something, and Butch as well knew it. If
Speaker 7: they were ever going to do something to her, it
Speaker 7: wasn't going to be in a public place. And they
Speaker 7: had to do something to set this up.
Speaker 6: Yes, this is the incredibly evil part of this. This
Speaker 6: is what really garnered a lot of I think a
Speaker 6: lot of attention is this despicable act. But this very
Speaker 6: very ingenious plan that they had here about calling the
Speaker 6: mother at home, tell us about this route.
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Speaker 8: They used.
Speaker 6: The night before call a guidance counselor from the high school,
Speaker 6: cauling Hazel show come in and tell us about that.
Speaker 7: Incredible they Hazel was actually at work and a call
Speaker 7: came into the nurse's lounge which wasn't that wasn't a
Speaker 7: public number, so you know, when she was she was
Speaker 7: told there was this phone call for her, she thought, oh,
Speaker 7: you know, well something important, something bad has happened. She
Speaker 7: gets on the phone and the woman that identifies herself
Speaker 7: as missus Cooper, the guidance counselor at her daughter's at
Speaker 7: her daughter's school, and she really needs to see her
Speaker 7: the next morning. Can she come early before school starts?
Speaker 7: And you know, Hazel of course says yes, but what
Speaker 7: what's happening? What's going on? And the woman says, well,
Speaker 7: I can't, you know, I don't want to talk about
Speaker 7: it on the phone. It has something to do with
Speaker 7: a boy and something that's happened, and I just need
Speaker 7: to I need to see you. And so she said,
Speaker 7: of course, I'll be there seven fifteen, seven thirty seven
Speaker 7: fifteen in the morning, I think it was. And Hazel
Speaker 7: goes home to and talks to Laurie and what's going on.
Speaker 7: Laurie doesn't know. She's you know, she thinks everything's fine.
Speaker 7: She hasn't been in trouble in school. Nobody said anything
Speaker 7: to her. She doesn't know, but you know, Hazel nevertheless
Speaker 7: feels like, Okay, well I need to I need to
Speaker 7: go and and see. And so she goes to the
Speaker 7: school and she waits. Laurie is at home by herself,
Speaker 7: getting ready for school and doing her hair, you know,
Speaker 7: they're flat iron and you know, getting ready, and Hazel's
Speaker 7: at the school. She's waiting the teacher. Never guidance counselor
Speaker 7: doesn't show up, and she Hazel is a very patient person,
Speaker 7: very you know, kind of demure person that she would
Speaker 7: you know, she would say, well, you know, I'd wait
Speaker 7: thirty minutes for somebody. But there's something about this. It
Speaker 7: just doesn't feel right to her. You know. The secretary
Speaker 7: comes in and sits at her desk, and so Hazel
Speaker 7: just says, I gotta go, And so she leaves a
Speaker 7: note for the Gutts counselor and just says she couldn't
Speaker 7: wait any longer. And the whole way home and she's
Speaker 7: several miles away from home, and the whole way home,
Speaker 7: she's thinking, this is just not right, and she has
Speaker 7: this feeling that you know, i'm as she's scared that
Speaker 7: something has happened. And so it's one of those rare
Speaker 7: moments where she and she remembers this so well that
Speaker 7: she made every single light going there and got home,
Speaker 7: walked in, you know, thought Laurie had already left for school,
Speaker 7: looked around, you know, noticed that there was a light
Speaker 7: on or that's something that you know wouldn't have happened.
Speaker 7: And then she saw that that Laurie had left her
Speaker 7: curling iron on, which would be, you know, just a
Speaker 7: scary thing. Laurie's boyfriend was the firemen, and so you know,
Speaker 7: that would be something that they would never have let happened,
Speaker 7: and because he was supposed to pick her up and
Speaker 7: take her to school, and you know, as far as
Speaker 7: Hazel knew, and then she looked into Laurie's bedroom and
Speaker 7: there was her daughter lying on the floor in a
Speaker 7: pool of blood.
Speaker 8: And what did she immediately do.
Speaker 7: She saw that there was a rope that was tied
Speaker 7: around Laurie's neck, and so she thought that that because
Speaker 7: she could, you know, she could hear that Laurie was
Speaker 7: gasping for breath, and so she thought that that was
Speaker 7: what was wrong with her. And she ran in the
Speaker 7: kitchen and got a peary knife and cut the cut
Speaker 7: the rope off. And when she did that, Laurie's head
Speaker 7: fell backwards, and she saw that her throat had been slit,
Speaker 7: and in fact, it was so vicious an attack that
Speaker 7: her throat was slit all the way back to her
Speaker 7: spinal call wow. And Hazel you know, ran out to
Speaker 7: the you know, and said call nine one one, and
Speaker 7: you know, of course, and then went back into the
Speaker 7: room and and and held her daughter, you know, held
Speaker 7: her up like you know, with her back. Laurie's back
Speaker 7: would be against Hazel's chest because she wanted to keep
Speaker 7: her head down, you know. That was the only thing
Speaker 7: she could think about, was keep that wound together, you know.
Speaker 7: And she said and she you know, just spoke to
Speaker 7: her and said, you know, you're gonna be okay. You know,
Speaker 7: Dad and I are going to be okay. She wanted her,
Speaker 7: you know, you know, she I don't think consciously she
Speaker 7: realized that her daughter was actually dying, but she was
Speaker 7: trying to be positive and and and this is you know,
Speaker 7: like so many pieces of this story, there are so
Speaker 7: many points of contention, and this would be one that
Speaker 7: she that Laurie said to her, Michelle did it, and
Speaker 7: she held her, you know, Hazel held her daughter there
Speaker 7: until the paramedics arrived. And at first the paramedics you know, looked.
Speaker 7: I mean, this was just a gruesome scene. I mean
Speaker 7: there was blood everywhere. There was you know, stuff was
Speaker 7: knocked over, it was in you know, Laurie was lying
Speaker 7: on the floor in her bedroom and and at first
Speaker 7: they didn't, you know, they didn't know what had happened.
Speaker 7: They thought, did this woman do this to this girl?
Speaker 7: And and she said, I didn't do it. I didn't
Speaker 7: do it. And then they you know, moved in to
Speaker 7: try to to try to help her, and then you know,
Speaker 7: made Hazel leave and in fact made her leave the
Speaker 7: apartment and she went downstairs, and but there was no
Speaker 7: saving her.
Speaker 6: She died shortly after.
Speaker 7: She died, almost almost immediately, she bled to death there,
Speaker 7: you know, I mean, that's how much blood there was.
Speaker 6: Now, with the background that had happened, with the harassment
Speaker 6: and the they were trying to get a restraining order
Speaker 6: against Butcher and Michelle. So the police basically had some suspects,
Speaker 6: and obviously they would have spoken to the mother.
Speaker 8: So tell us how long.
Speaker 6: It was before the police rounded up the the the
Speaker 6: obviously the obvious suspects.
Speaker 7: Well, the actually and we kind of jumped over this.
Speaker 7: I'd forgotten this detail they had the show family had
Speaker 7: filed an assault charge against Lisa Michelle Lambert before this happened.
Speaker 7: So yes, the police, you know, the police knew they
Speaker 7: there had been many times where the family had called
Speaker 7: and said, you know, these people are harassing her, or
Speaker 7: police had gone to the you know, had gone and
Speaker 7: talked to them before about this. So so I don't
Speaker 7: think that it was It wasn't necessarily shocking that, you know,
Speaker 7: that the that they would be, that these people would
Speaker 7: be suspects. No one in the condominium development saw really anything,
Speaker 7: you know, Initially they thought the police thought that it
Speaker 7: was Butch and Lisa Michelle, but they did find a
Speaker 7: witness who said, no, they saw two women coming out,
Speaker 7: and so that was a puzzle to the police. But anyway,
Speaker 7: so they put the word out that they were looking
Speaker 7: for a certain car and went and talked with but
Speaker 7: Younkin's parents and the mother kind of blurted out, no,
Speaker 7: that wasn't the right car, so you know, she kind
Speaker 7: of gave them some information that they needed to to
Speaker 7: find them. Ultimately, they found them the next day in
Speaker 7: a bowling alley. They had, you know, basically gone about
Speaker 7: their lives after this had happened. They tab at the buck,
Speaker 7: went to school the next day, Lawrence and you know,
Speaker 7: Butch and Lisa Michelle took her to school. They went
Speaker 7: into the laundromat and washed their bloody clothes and then
Speaker 7: threw them out and then they went bowling, which is
Speaker 7: you know, really just an amazing detail, I think, And
Speaker 7: you know, just you can just you know, kill someone,
Speaker 7: and they and you know, they I think certainly knew
Speaker 7: that they had killed her. I think it was the
Speaker 7: next morning when they saw it on the news that
Speaker 7: they knew for sure. But based on what they did
Speaker 7: to her and what the scene look like and how
Speaker 7: she was, you know, gasping for breath when they left
Speaker 7: the room and just left her there, they certainly knew
Speaker 7: that they'd killed her. But they just went about their
Speaker 7: life and then started telling their stories.
Speaker 6: Right now, how did the police respond in terms of questioning,
Speaker 6: did the did the lawyer up, what was the questioning
Speaker 6: of the of the two suspects, How long before Tabitha
Speaker 6: is rounded up? And what is the result of questioning.
Speaker 7: Well, Tabitha was a juvenile at the time, so they
Speaker 7: couldn't really hold her and they couldn't question her without
Speaker 7: her parents being there, and so so they let her
Speaker 7: go on that first day that they brought them, you know,
Speaker 7: that they when they were arrested. But she did she
Speaker 7: did tell I mean, they had a story that they
Speaker 7: had been some where and gotten into an altercation with
Speaker 7: some other kids. And that's that would account for the
Speaker 7: scratch that Tabitha had on her face. And and it
Speaker 7: seems like that Michelle had some wounds of some sort,
Speaker 7: superficial wounds, and so you know, this this was the
Speaker 7: story that they all agreed on, and it was the
Speaker 7: story that they all told initially, and they they kept
Speaker 7: questioning Lisa, Michelle and Butch through the night and never
Speaker 7: they had they never asked for a lawyer. They worked,
Speaker 7: you know, get given their miranda rights. For the other
Speaker 7: charges that were outstanding, there was Butch had some minor
Speaker 7: I don't remember exactly what it was, but some minor
Speaker 7: charge that you know, like failure to appear for something
Speaker 7: or maybe a traffic ticket or something. But you know,
Speaker 7: Lisa Michelle had the charge pending the assault charge from Laurie,
Speaker 7: and so they charged them with that so that they
Speaker 7: could keep them and kept talking to them, talking to them,
Speaker 7: and finally Lisa Michelle said, well, you know, I didn't
Speaker 7: do it, but that the other two did it. She
Speaker 7: was the one that broke first. And then they used
Speaker 7: that information to get Butch to start talking as well.
Speaker 6: So in short order they had finally cracked Michelle and
Speaker 6: she had said that the Butch and Tabitha had participated.
Speaker 6: So what was that official? What was her first official
Speaker 6: story on what exactly had happened and why.
Speaker 7: She said that that Butch and Tabitha did it and
Speaker 7: she wasn't that she didn't do it at all, and
Speaker 7: you know that that her that her she just wanted
Speaker 7: to embarrass Laurie. She wanted to maybe cut her hair
Speaker 7: off or something, and so, but that she wasn't even
Speaker 7: in the room when she wasn't even in the apartment
Speaker 7: when it happened, and so you know, Butch immediately countered,
Speaker 7: you know, well, that's not true. I was the one
Speaker 7: who wasn't there. In fact, it was the two of
Speaker 7: you know, the two women who went in.
Speaker 6: What what did Michelle gives the reason why she wouldn't
Speaker 6: be in the She just wanted to humiliate the Lorie,
Speaker 6: but she wasn't there. But why would Tabitha want to
Speaker 6: kill her? Was there any explanation for that?
Speaker 7: I don't recall that there was an explanation for that,
Speaker 7: you know, other than the fact that, you know, Tabitha
Speaker 7: was just some kind of mean girl that was out
Speaker 7: there too.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 7: It seems like that she and Laurie had had some
Speaker 7: kind of altercate. Tabitha and Laurie had had some kind
Speaker 7: of altercation, and perhaps it was payback for that, you know,
Speaker 7: or that she perhaps she just wanted to be, you know,
Speaker 7: one of the friends, one of the you know, I'm
Speaker 7: with you guys, you're my best friends. Let's go. But
Speaker 7: you know, Tabitha is a that is one of those
Speaker 7: kind of stories that is really very sad because in
Speaker 7: the you know, in the way that things played out,
Speaker 7: and based on advice from her law you know, Tabitha's lawyer,
Speaker 7: they said, don't talk, don't talk, don't tell anything. And
Speaker 7: the police have told me many times that they would
Speaker 7: have much rather made a deal with Tabitha than to
Speaker 7: make a deal with Butch, which in fact they did.
Speaker 7: They did make the deal with Butch. And so I mean,
Speaker 7: I probably don't want to jump aad too far, but
Speaker 7: but you know, she really missed. She got some bad
Speaker 7: advice because based on my interview with Tabitha, and you know,
Speaker 7: the time that I spent with her actually in jail
Speaker 7: interviewing her, she never she did not strike me as
Speaker 7: this angry, mean person who would viciously go in and
Speaker 7: kill somebody. I don't really believe. And she claims that
Speaker 7: she didn't know what was going to happen, that she
Speaker 7: thought that they were just going in there to cut
Speaker 7: her hair, and that the next thing she knew, there
Speaker 7: was Laurie stabbing this girl and slitting her throat and
Speaker 7: Taba but Tabitha did, you know, hold her legs down.
Speaker 7: And Tabitha did not go to the police and did
Speaker 7: not try to get help for her. So you know,
Speaker 7: there's no doubt that she was an accomplice in this.
Speaker 7: But as far as the mastermind, uh, that was a
Speaker 7: that was a large uh you know, butcher Younkin and
Speaker 7: Lisa Michelle Lambert proposition.
Speaker 6: I think no, we just jumped a little bit of ahead.
Speaker 6: But I want to know as a result of the
Speaker 6: tale that Michelle Lambert told h the idea that Tabitha
Speaker 6: Buck would not be saying anything on advice from her lawyer,
Speaker 6: her attorney, and then Butcher Youngkin is given a deal. Now,
Speaker 6: what is the deal that they are giving him and
Speaker 6: what is the alternative in terms of what could he
Speaker 6: be faced with and what But what do prosecutors and
Speaker 6: police have is in terms of their motive and how
Speaker 6: are they going to what do they think or at
Speaker 6: least the prosecution is going to say in terms of
Speaker 6: what what happened and why?
Speaker 7: Well, I think that first of all, it was pretty
Speaker 7: clear to everybody that Lisa Michelle Lambert was the main killer.
Speaker 7: Sure there was, and that butch Chunkin was not in
Speaker 7: the apartment when this took place, but Tabitha was. And
Speaker 7: but he could have faced, you know, very serious charges
Speaker 7: as far as you know, being an accomplice before and
Speaker 7: after a murder, and he ultimately initially had agreed to
Speaker 7: a much lighter sentence than what he got, But he
Speaker 7: didn't tell the whole truth about you know, what had
Speaker 7: actually happened. And so because of that, they they increased
Speaker 7: his punishment. But still he served much you know, I mean,
Speaker 7: he's out of prison right now, it's been out for
Speaker 7: a while, and so I mean, he faced much more
Speaker 7: serious charges. And you know, the police have told me
Speaker 7: that they would have much rather had Tabitha as the
Speaker 7: as their key witness. I mean, you know, in effect,
Speaker 7: you know, butsch was the prime witness in the case
Speaker 7: against Lisa Michelle and and he he's the one who
Speaker 7: you know, gave them the testimony that they needed to
Speaker 7: get a guilty you know. And and that's another really
Speaker 7: unusual twist to this is the fact that if it
Speaker 7: was a that she didn't want a jury, She wanted
Speaker 7: to be tried solely by the judge, and the judge
Speaker 7: would decide whether she lived or died. This was a
Speaker 7: capital murder case. And so but the police absolutely said
Speaker 7: that they would have much rather had Tabitha. But her
Speaker 7: her lawyer said no, Yeah, it.
Speaker 6: Seems like people are getting not great legal advice here.
Speaker 6: It's unusual for people not to go to a jury
Speaker 6: with this kind of case rather than just a judge alone.
Speaker 6: So I don't know, that wasn't very good legal strategy, obviously.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and certainly not and certainly not to you know,
Speaker 7: to when you have the opportunity to make a deal,
Speaker 7: you know, make the deal in a case like this
Speaker 7: where it's pretty clear that you were in the room,
Speaker 7: you know that in all you know, I think I'm
Speaker 7: certain in most states I would you know, I would
Speaker 7: guess that, you know, like here in South Carolina where
Speaker 7: I live. The you know, the hand of one is
Speaker 7: the hand of all. If you're in the room, even
Speaker 7: if you didn't kill the person, you're still a murderer.
Speaker 7: Was and you know, so that's you know, so Tabitha
Speaker 7: was certainly guilty and certainly took part in this. So
Speaker 7: you know, she w instead of being in the women's
Speaker 7: prison in Pennsylvania right now, she would have been out
Speaker 7: if she had made the deal.
Speaker 6: Now, what was the sen you say that boy Lawrence
Speaker 6: uh he youngkin he got to ten to twenty years,
Speaker 6: ten to twenty you see. And so what was the
Speaker 6: sentence for Tabitha Buck and for Michelle Lambert in that
Speaker 6: first trial?
Speaker 7: Life without the possibility of parol, no possibility of parole.
Speaker 6: No possibility of parole, Okay, And as per usual everywhere
Speaker 6: everyone knows there's an appeal process in this case, did
Speaker 6: you think there was Having reviewed that trial, did you
Speaker 6: think there was any grounds for any kind of appeal?
Speaker 6: Do you think the judge at that time did anything incorrectly?
Speaker 6: Did you think that there was it was a fair trial,
Speaker 6: and what did you think about the appeal? And in
Speaker 6: terms of what happened what happened afterwards is after this
Speaker 6: trial here in terms of the appeal process.
Speaker 7: Well, this is the you know, this is absolutely the
Speaker 7: case that never dies apparently because this went on up
Speaker 7: until gosh, two thousand, I don't know, two thousand twenty,
Speaker 7: you know, two thousand and three, something like that, because
Speaker 7: you know, she ended up with a very aggressive and
Speaker 7: highly competent lawyer, Lisa Michelle is who I'm talking about,
Speaker 7: who basically took apart the case. And while they didn't
Speaker 7: find anything necessarily that the judge had done, they they
Speaker 7: found the prosecutor, you know, that the prosecutor had had
Speaker 7: had some misconduct, that was their opinion, and that the
Speaker 7: police had basically framed Lisa Michelle because and this was
Speaker 7: just one of those moments that this little town, you know,
Speaker 7: this little town that that never has any kind of
Speaker 7: you know, horrible murders that take place. First they have
Speaker 7: this murder, and then this person who was who is
Speaker 7: convicted of this murder, accuses three members of the police
Speaker 7: department of raping her in her apartment before this happened,
Speaker 7: you know, before the murder, and and that that they
Speaker 7: in turn framed her, that they kept and that the
Speaker 7: prosecutor had kept evidence that would you know, not you know,
Speaker 7: that would make her look better, you know, that they
Speaker 7: had not that they had not given her that that
Speaker 7: they basically I mean, there was something like one hundred
Speaker 7: places where this lawyer found that that that either the
Speaker 7: prosecutor or the police had misconduct. And so it went
Speaker 7: to another trial, uh, this time an appeals court, and
Speaker 7: that judge said found that she was innocent, completely innocent,
Speaker 7: and let her go.
Speaker 8: And did he also he prevented any further retrial, right.
Speaker 7: And he is he ruled that this could never be
Speaker 7: tried again. And it was just shocking, I mean, it
Speaker 7: was shocking to you know. And and as it turned out,
Speaker 7: you know that you know that for example, one of
Speaker 7: the police officers who Lisa Michelle accused of raping her
Speaker 7: that day was on his honeymoon in you know, Hawaii
Speaker 7: or something, and she had actual evidence that he was
Speaker 7: not even in the state. So I mean there was
Speaker 7: just point after point after point that you know that
Speaker 7: were that that this that the prosecutors and the police
Speaker 7: had to refute, and it turned into just you know,
Speaker 7: kind of a twisting this whole organization inside out. And ultimately,
Speaker 7: I mean they were vindicated that you know, the courts
Speaker 7: did find that they did not you know, that they
Speaker 7: did not do any of these things. They did not
Speaker 7: rape her. No charges were ever brought against any of
Speaker 7: these police officers. But nevertheless, it was just this wrenching,
Speaker 7: very difficult time that and particularly for the Show family,
Speaker 7: you know, because here's this family that thinks, you know,
Speaker 7: this this is over. We you know, the people that
Speaker 7: did this. Justice has been served. The people that did
Speaker 7: this are behind bars, behind bars for life. You know,
Speaker 7: they weren't real happy about but Chunkin having, you know,
Speaker 7: being the fact that he was going to be able
Speaker 7: to get out of prison sure relatively short period of time.
Speaker 7: But now they have to go back to court. You know,
Speaker 7: they are in I can't remember I spoke with Hazel Show.
Speaker 7: In fact, not too terribly long ago, and I can't
Speaker 7: remember what she told me about the number of times
Speaker 7: that they had to go to court over these years,
Speaker 7: and you know they have to you know, they the
Speaker 7: details of their daughter's death again. Hearing this again, hearing
Speaker 7: these allegations, you know that the you know that that
Speaker 7: these people that they had put their trust in the
Speaker 7: police and the prosecutors had you know, denied Lisa Michelle
Speaker 7: Lambert her constitutional rights, and you know it was a
Speaker 7: very very wrenching, wrenching time. But you know, it went
Speaker 7: back through the appeals process. A judge higher than the
Speaker 7: one that said that she was in effect innocent found
Speaker 7: actually that that wasn't her place to make a you know,
Speaker 7: to make a ruling over whether this person was innocent
Speaker 7: or not. That wasn't that wasn't the point. The point was,
Speaker 7: was their prosecutor prosecutorial misconduct And she said no, there
Speaker 7: was not. Every single point she denied in the appeal.
Speaker 7: And then the US Supreme Court refused to hear the case.
Speaker 7: So you know that this this horrible murder went on
Speaker 7: for you know, the the wheels of justice were very
Speaker 7: slow on this, on this particular case.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it must have been very hard for her too
Speaker 6: as well, because here the unsubstantiated claims that this apparently
Speaker 6: reputable law firm and then the judge, this judge that
Speaker 6: was you know, basically criticized and ridiculed in the media
Speaker 6: and probably within the legal community, especially for this major
Speaker 6: overturning of of the of the decision. So you have
Speaker 6: this very interesting dynamic of of you know, judges rarely
Speaker 6: overturn any other decision. That's why they do things so carefully,
Speaker 6: and that's the last thing that would probably want is
Speaker 6: to be considered humiliated or have done something inappropriate. So
Speaker 6: it's very interesting, well.
Speaker 7: And to do and to do it in such a
Speaker 7: blatant fashion, you know, I need to go so far
Speaker 7: overboard to say that she is in effect innocent and
Speaker 7: then to let her go, you know.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and Michelle really really does weave some fantasticals. We
Speaker 6: haven't got into it, but it's incredible the lies that
Speaker 6: are compounded over the years, and the fanciful tales. I mean,
Speaker 6: I can't believe anybody could accept some of them with
Speaker 6: a straight face. But she tried, that's certainly she's tried.
Speaker 7: She certainly has, and she is still she's still trying.
Speaker 7: My understanding is she's writing a book herself. Sure, but
Speaker 7: you know she she you know, she graduated from college
Speaker 7: while she was in prison, and she's you know, moved
Speaker 7: on with her life and she sees her daughter and
Speaker 7: that's a whole lot more than the show Family that
Speaker 7: gets to do exactly.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, it's it's amazing.
Speaker 8: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Well, I want to thank you very much h Lynn
Speaker 6: for this for this interview. I also want to let
Speaker 6: people know you have a you have a website, and
Speaker 6: you also have is this year how many two crime
Speaker 6: books do you have? I know you have four and
Speaker 6: have four.
Speaker 7: I have four and this was my second actually, yeah, and.
Speaker 6: Maybe you can just tell the names of those those
Speaker 6: books for for audience if they're interested.
Speaker 7: Absolutely, there's some Ashes to Ashes. Do you want me
Speaker 7: to tell you what they're about or just a name
Speaker 7: at Ashes to Ashes is a is a story about
Speaker 7: a family who literally the entire family is killed by
Speaker 7: one of the children, and it just, you know, one
Speaker 7: of those moments where the police could not even believe
Speaker 7: that anything horrible had happened to this family. You know,
Speaker 7: they always look into the background of the family. They
Speaker 7: could InFine anything about this family that was in any
Speaker 7: way unusual, but except for the fact that they had
Speaker 7: a murdering child. And then there's some Family Blood, which
Speaker 7: is a story is said in South Carolina about a
Speaker 7: young man who killed his family opposite of Ashes to Ashes,
Speaker 7: because this was a family that was in serious dysfunction.
Speaker 7: And then first We'll Kill My Husband is a story
Speaker 7: about a woman who had her boyfriend kill her husband.
Speaker 7: Very very unusual for a woman to be on death
Speaker 7: row and she in fact is the only person on
Speaker 7: death row in Georgia.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 8: Interesting.
Speaker 7: And then Overkill will be coming out in August.
Speaker 6: Yeah, great, well, good luck with that. I know, well,
Speaker 6: I mean if it's being re released and it did
Speaker 6: well the first time, and it'll probably do really good
Speaker 6: again because this is a fascinating story that's really hitting home.
Speaker 6: You're getting a lot more stories in the last couple
Speaker 6: of years that sort of have this sort of teens
Speaker 6: run wild and people are really well, obviously it hits
Speaker 6: home for everybody that has children and they're seeing some
Speaker 6: of these this psychopathic behavior. That's really the only thing
Speaker 6: you can explain that you cannot chuck it up to
Speaker 6: teen ags. It's much more than evil. And yeah, absolutely
Speaker 6: so well.
Speaker 7: And you know, and it's bizarre. Lisa Michelle Lambert did
Speaker 7: a television interview for a storier many years ago, and
Speaker 7: and you know, at the time she said something like
Speaker 7: one day we're just teenagers. And you know that's really
Speaker 7: very telling for you know, for her to come from
Speaker 7: her especially, and then she of course added, it's just
Speaker 7: a mess.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's it's certainly it is.
Speaker 7: It's a it's a it is an interesting story and
Speaker 7: it's a very very sad story. And you know, in
Speaker 7: talking with Hazel Show recently, she said, I can't even
Speaker 7: imagine what the kind of situation we would have been
Speaker 7: in in this day where we live, you know, in
Speaker 7: this time where we live now, with social media, Facebook,
Speaker 7: you know, all these ways that people have to bully
Speaker 7: other children, you know, other young people, and you know
Speaker 7: she said this, you know, this was a whole different time.
Speaker 7: And and they have had anti bullying, anti stocking laws
Speaker 7: passed in Pennsylvania at the you know, because of the
Speaker 7: work of the Show family and and Hazel Field's like,
Speaker 7: you know, at least something good has come from this
Speaker 7: really horrible situation.
Speaker 6: Yes, that's one thing we did skip over. There there
Speaker 6: were no anti stalking laws at that time.
Speaker 7: No, to be fair, there was really very little that
Speaker 7: they could do to you know, to keep these you know,
Speaker 7: butcher and leave the Michelle away from their daughter otherway.
Speaker 6: And it's a real cautionary tale too, because I think
Speaker 6: that a lot of people are I know, people that
Speaker 6: have children that are bullied to a certain degree or
Speaker 6: at least harassed. And as you mentioned, facebook's a big
Speaker 6: issue and a big part of this harassment as well
Speaker 6: when you start posting things on Facebook. And but anyway,
Speaker 6: you know.
Speaker 10: It is.
Speaker 7: So and something that happens all the time, all the time,
Speaker 7: you know. I mean I've did a story not too
Speaker 7: tired and long ago about these kids who had written
Speaker 7: a book for young, very young age children about bullying,
Speaker 7: and in doing this story, I asked, you know, well
Speaker 7: do you see this, And they say, every day. We
Speaker 7: see bullying in our high school every day and it
Speaker 7: is a big, big issue, just you know, something that
Speaker 7: and I think that we don't really understand quite you know,
Speaker 7: those of us who have been through school and out
Speaker 7: in the world, we don't really understand what a lot
Speaker 7: of these young people are going through.
Speaker 6: And it's just hard to believe it could get to
Speaker 6: that point. That's what I was mentioning with the cautionary tale.
Speaker 6: Nobody knew that it would escalate to this point, even
Speaker 6: like the mother. She was coming back from the supposed
Speaker 6: that up counselors meeting. But how could anyone have any
Speaker 6: idea these people really put in a plan to kill someone.
Speaker 6: It really wasn't any happenstance. It was a concerted effort
Speaker 6: to kill Incredible. How can you really guard against something
Speaker 6: like that? It's very, very very heartbreaking to read the
Speaker 6: ride back from the from the high school and with
Speaker 6: her and pending doom, and then for tragedy to strike
Speaker 6: and and her daughter to bleed to death in her arms.
Speaker 6: Incredible stories.
Speaker 7: Absolutely absolutely well.
Speaker 6: I want to thank you Lynn for a great interview
Speaker 6: and thank you very much. And again did you mention
Speaker 6: your website.
Speaker 7: Lynnriddle dot com.
Speaker 6: There we go, okay, thank you very much.
Speaker 7: Lynn, with one N L Y n RI I d
Speaker 7: d LI dot com and I thank you. This is
Speaker 7: I appreciate it very much.
Speaker 6: Well, thank you very much, and you have a great evening.
Speaker 7: Thank you, good night.