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Every 24 00:01:25.799 --> 00:01:29.480 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 25 00:01:29.599 --> 00:01:33.760 infamous killers in true crime history, True Murder, with your 26 00:01:33.799 --> 00:01:37.000 host journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 27 00:01:46.840 --> 00:01:50.120 Good Evening. This is Dan Zupanski for the program True Murder, 28 00:01:50.439 --> 00:01:53.120 the most shocking killers in true crime history and the 29 00:01:53.159 --> 00:01:56.879 authors that have written about them. Laurie's show was as 30 00:01:56.920 --> 00:02:00.640 compassionate as she was hardworking. The outgoing high school junior 31 00:02:00.680 --> 00:02:02.760 work part time to pay for the home she and 32 00:02:02.799 --> 00:02:05.920 her divorce mother shared, yet she always had time to 33 00:02:05.959 --> 00:02:10.280 tutor friends struggling in school, and she befriended a dejected 34 00:02:10.439 --> 00:02:14.319 classmate after his traumatic breakup with his pregnant longtime girlfriend, 35 00:02:14.319 --> 00:02:20.280 Michelle Lambert. But soon things spiraled into jealous obsession, stalking, 36 00:02:20.360 --> 00:02:23.039 and a brutal attack that left Laurie murdered in her 37 00:02:23.080 --> 00:02:26.960 own bedroom, and once Michelle started telling one lie too many, 38 00:02:27.479 --> 00:02:31.840 the ensuing investigation shattered a peaceful community. Noted crime writer 39 00:02:31.919 --> 00:02:35.000 Lynn Riddle also brings you the latest updates on Michelle Lambert, 40 00:02:35.080 --> 00:02:40.000 her accomplishments, accomplices, and those involved this in this Unforgettable case. 41 00:02:40.479 --> 00:02:43.960 The book thisce Evening that we're featuring is Overkill with 42 00:02:44.039 --> 00:02:47.840 my special guest, journalist and author Lynn Riddle, welcome to 43 00:02:47.879 --> 00:02:50.360 the program, and thank you to agreeing to this interview. 44 00:02:50.719 --> 00:02:54.520 Lynn Riddle, Thank you Dan for having me. Thank you 45 00:02:54.639 --> 00:02:58.280 very much. This is one twisting and turning story, Sodey. 46 00:02:58.360 --> 00:03:01.199 You think you've got what's happening here, there's another twist 47 00:03:01.240 --> 00:03:05.840 in turn and lie, in deception and retrial. So it's 48 00:03:06.240 --> 00:03:11.599 very interesting. Now let's start off right off the bat, really, 49 00:03:11.680 --> 00:03:18.479 because we need to describe the community this Lancaster County. 50 00:03:18.639 --> 00:03:22.240 We need to talk about that this is first off, 51 00:03:23.120 --> 00:03:26.120 tell us what kind of religious community it is and 52 00:03:26.199 --> 00:03:29.879 as a result of that type of religion in reality, 53 00:03:30.120 --> 00:03:34.280 what kind of community are we talking about here where 54 00:03:34.319 --> 00:03:38.240 this tragedy occurred. So set the stage, give us kind 55 00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:40.280 of an idea of what this community is really like. 56 00:03:40.960 --> 00:03:45.120 And before we start getting into the story in any detail. 57 00:03:46.280 --> 00:03:51.360 Well, this is small town Pennsylvania, the Amish country. The 58 00:03:51.400 --> 00:03:54.000 people that were involved in this particular crime were not 59 00:03:54.680 --> 00:03:58.479 among the Amish community, but certainly influenced by this. It 60 00:03:58.520 --> 00:04:01.759 was a very peaceful community when this crime occurred. There 61 00:04:01.800 --> 00:04:05.120 had not been a murder in the community for more 62 00:04:05.159 --> 00:04:08.520 than a decade, so this was not you know, this 63 00:04:08.680 --> 00:04:11.159 was this is just that kind of you call it 64 00:04:11.280 --> 00:04:16.639 kind of beautiful rolling hills part of Pennsylvania where you know, 65 00:04:16.720 --> 00:04:20.600 you think that you're safe at night and and you 66 00:04:20.639 --> 00:04:23.319 know something is not going to happen to your teenage 67 00:04:23.399 --> 00:04:24.959 daughter in her bedroom. 68 00:04:26.319 --> 00:04:31.399 Right now, Laurie show. Tell us about, first off, where 69 00:04:31.439 --> 00:04:34.759 she lived and what age were we talking about this 70 00:04:34.839 --> 00:04:39.279 woman being We alluded to in the show synopsis. But 71 00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:42.839 tell us about what Laurie's show was at this age. 72 00:04:43.000 --> 00:04:44.560 What she was doing is she was a junior in 73 00:04:44.600 --> 00:04:48.120 high school. Tell her age, what she looked like, what 74 00:04:48.240 --> 00:04:50.839 was there life like? Tell us about her parents, tell 75 00:04:50.920 --> 00:04:52.079 us about her life a little bit. 76 00:04:53.360 --> 00:04:57.839 Well, Laurie's show was a lot like most teenagers. I 77 00:04:57.839 --> 00:05:01.879 mean this this crime occurred twenty years ago, and so 78 00:05:02.240 --> 00:05:06.240 you know that makes it even more shocking the you know, 79 00:05:06.319 --> 00:05:10.040 the time period that it took place. But Laurie was 80 00:05:10.120 --> 00:05:14.120 a girl who liked to have fun. She was you know, 81 00:05:14.319 --> 00:05:18.240 very close to her parents. Not to say that she 82 00:05:18.319 --> 00:05:20.439 was a perfect child by any means. I mean, she 83 00:05:20.480 --> 00:05:23.160 had gone through a wild period. And in fact, the 84 00:05:23.279 --> 00:05:26.199 time that she ended up with these people that caused 85 00:05:26.199 --> 00:05:29.160 her harm, you know that was not a pleasant moment 86 00:05:29.240 --> 00:05:32.839 for her family. Her parents had divorced and but yet 87 00:05:32.879 --> 00:05:36.920 she remained very close to her father, wonderful caring man 88 00:05:37.000 --> 00:05:39.720 who was very involved as that she is the only 89 00:05:39.800 --> 00:05:44.040 child in this family. She and her mother were living 90 00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:47.560 in an apartment that, as it turned out, was right 91 00:05:47.600 --> 00:05:51.079 across the street from one of the people who ended 92 00:05:51.160 --> 00:05:54.040 up being a detective on this case, one of the investigators, 93 00:05:54.759 --> 00:06:01.480 and they were friendly and the herr. Laurie worked a 94 00:06:01.519 --> 00:06:03.800 you know, work jobs so that she could basically help 95 00:06:03.839 --> 00:06:08.839 her mother afford this really nice apartment. Her mother was 96 00:06:08.879 --> 00:06:12.160 working as a nurse's aide at the time, her father 97 00:06:12.399 --> 00:06:17.399 worked for a delivery company, and you know, just hard working, 98 00:06:18.199 --> 00:06:20.319 regular folks. 99 00:06:21.160 --> 00:06:24.519 And what kind of relationship did did the three of them? Have? 100 00:06:24.600 --> 00:06:27.000 You said that she stay close with her with her 101 00:06:27.040 --> 00:06:29.920 father and with her mother, but in real terms, how 102 00:06:29.959 --> 00:06:33.680 close was that relationship, How intimate were they how close 103 00:06:33.680 --> 00:06:38.079 a family? And how well adjusted was Laurie at that time? 104 00:06:38.120 --> 00:06:41.360 What kind of person was she? Well? 105 00:06:41.399 --> 00:06:43.839 I think that Laurie was a very giving person. She 106 00:06:44.079 --> 00:06:49.199 was someone who you know, never was too busy to 107 00:06:49.240 --> 00:06:51.560 help somebody that needed help. She was a you know, 108 00:06:52.000 --> 00:06:55.480 pretty good student. She had the idea that she would 109 00:06:55.519 --> 00:06:57.600 one day go to Penn State. That was always her 110 00:06:57.600 --> 00:07:00.959 favorite school. She wore Penn States shirts all the time, 111 00:07:01.000 --> 00:07:06.199 and and she and her father had invect just the 112 00:07:06.279 --> 00:07:08.959 night before she was murdered, had been out to dinner together. 113 00:07:09.519 --> 00:07:12.519 She kept in really close close touch with her father, 114 00:07:14.079 --> 00:07:17.399 had the kind of relationship with her mother where I think, 115 00:07:17.439 --> 00:07:21.160 for a time, as is common with teenagers, I mean 116 00:07:21.199 --> 00:07:23.720 I think that they you know, had their moments of 117 00:07:24.360 --> 00:07:27.399 you know, her mother had moments of frustration with her, certainly, 118 00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:31.399 and she with her mother, but at this particular moment 119 00:07:31.439 --> 00:07:37.240 in time, they were very close. And Laurie confided a 120 00:07:37.319 --> 00:07:42.040 lot in her mother. And her mother is a very 121 00:07:42.160 --> 00:07:46.600 very kind woman, who very caring, and like I said, 122 00:07:46.639 --> 00:07:49.199 she was a nurse's age. She worked, She's always worked 123 00:07:49.199 --> 00:07:52.199 in jobs where you you know, where you had to 124 00:07:52.199 --> 00:07:56.439 be around people and where they she could interact with people, 125 00:07:56.600 --> 00:07:59.560 very personable, and Laurie was very much the same way. 126 00:07:59.639 --> 00:08:05.720 Laurie's very personable person A cute girl, you know, a tall, 127 00:08:05.879 --> 00:08:11.800 kind of statuesque girl, curly blonde hair, just a just 128 00:08:11.879 --> 00:08:18.160 a all round athletic, you know, young woman looking forward 129 00:08:18.199 --> 00:08:20.480 to her life, hoping to go to Penn State one day. 130 00:08:22.120 --> 00:08:26.160 Right now, let's before we get into anything else. Let's 131 00:08:26.279 --> 00:08:29.639 talk about a couple of the other characters. Uh, let's 132 00:08:29.639 --> 00:08:34.720 first talk about this Butch youngkin and and tell us 133 00:08:34.759 --> 00:08:37.679 a little bit about him. Tell Um tell Us tell 134 00:08:37.720 --> 00:08:39.679 our aunts a little bit about him and his family 135 00:08:39.679 --> 00:08:42.840 life and what what was he like in his aspirations. 136 00:08:44.320 --> 00:08:47.519 I'm not really certain that Butch had too many aspirations. 137 00:08:48.080 --> 00:08:50.879 You know, he wasn't a particularly good student. He had 138 00:08:50.919 --> 00:08:54.840 a very caring mother. I spent a good bit of 139 00:08:54.840 --> 00:08:56.799 a good a good bit of time with her, in fact, 140 00:08:56.799 --> 00:09:00.120 when I was working on this book, and she was 141 00:09:00.200 --> 00:09:05.960 very involved in his life. And his father left when 142 00:09:05.960 --> 00:09:09.919 he was a baby, and his mother remarried, and that man, 143 00:09:11.000 --> 00:09:14.679 his stepfather, adopted him and took him considered him his 144 00:09:14.720 --> 00:09:17.639 own child. I mean, there was no difference. They ended 145 00:09:17.720 --> 00:09:21.679 up having another child, and there was there was no 146 00:09:21.720 --> 00:09:24.399 difference between the way that he treated Butch in the 147 00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:27.759 way that he treated the the new baby. Just a 148 00:09:29.120 --> 00:09:33.679 you know, the working class family that you know tried 149 00:09:33.679 --> 00:09:36.679 to do the best they could. Butch was a you know, 150 00:09:36.759 --> 00:09:40.480 I think it's interesting because it's hard to it's it's 151 00:09:40.480 --> 00:09:42.600 one of those situations where it depends on who you believe, 152 00:09:43.039 --> 00:09:48.320 you know, whether Butch was this horrible, abusive, mean guy 153 00:09:49.279 --> 00:09:53.000 or he was you know that he had basically been 154 00:09:53.080 --> 00:09:59.120 hand picked and controlled by his girlfriend. That's that's how 155 00:09:59.200 --> 00:10:01.600 he would present himself and has his mother would tell 156 00:10:01.639 --> 00:10:04.519 the story. But there are many people who would say, no, 157 00:10:04.919 --> 00:10:09.240 I saw him hit Michelle, you know, Lisa Michelle Lambert, 158 00:10:09.320 --> 00:10:13.559 I saw him be angry. You know, certainly Hazel's show 159 00:10:14.200 --> 00:10:20.799 and John's show believe him to be a very mean spirited, difficult, 160 00:10:20.879 --> 00:10:21.879 angry young man. 161 00:10:23.799 --> 00:10:29.399 Yeah, but the allegations, even beyond you know, accomplice, the 162 00:10:29.440 --> 00:10:33.519 sexual the sexual charges are very very. 163 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:36.399 Very severe too. 164 00:10:36.679 --> 00:10:39.600 So absolutely, but you know, he says he didn't do it, 165 00:10:40.360 --> 00:10:43.159 you know, and and he was never charged with with 166 00:10:43.360 --> 00:10:47.720 raping either person, you know either. You know, Laurie had 167 00:10:47.759 --> 00:10:50.639 made the allegations that he raped her, and so did 168 00:10:50.679 --> 00:10:56.399 Lisa Michelle, but that has never been proved. You know, 169 00:10:56.440 --> 00:11:01.440 it certainly has been testified to in court. But you know, 170 00:11:02.200 --> 00:11:06.039 he he knows he's you know, and Lisa Michelle certainly 171 00:11:06.039 --> 00:11:08.600 know the truth. But beyond that, I'm not certain that 172 00:11:08.639 --> 00:11:09.279 the rest of us do. 173 00:11:10.840 --> 00:11:12.440 The thing was interesting, and I'm not trying to. 174 00:11:12.399 --> 00:11:14.679 Make I'm not trying to make him seem like, you know, 175 00:11:14.759 --> 00:11:16.840 he was the next door neighbor and I wish I 176 00:11:16.879 --> 00:11:18.919 lived next door to him or anything like that. I'm 177 00:11:18.919 --> 00:11:23.000 not trying to do that either, but but you know, 178 00:11:23.519 --> 00:11:27.240 his family would would make him out to be a 179 00:11:27.639 --> 00:11:31.840 you know, okay guy. But you know, it is the 180 00:11:32.279 --> 00:11:36.720 courts have certainly considered that he, you know, wasn't accomplished 181 00:11:36.759 --> 00:11:40.120 to this murder. That he and Lisa Michelle would tell 182 00:11:40.159 --> 00:11:42.679 you that he actually was there and took part in 183 00:11:42.720 --> 00:11:46.600 the murder. So there's all sorts of pieces of this 184 00:11:47.159 --> 00:11:52.039 story that you know, everybody's telling a different tale and 185 00:11:52.120 --> 00:11:55.639 having to unravel that is a difficult proposition. 186 00:11:56.639 --> 00:11:59.960 What I just found interesting was, and it was just baffle, 187 00:12:00.360 --> 00:12:04.639 is that Butch that we don't really get a good idea, 188 00:12:04.799 --> 00:12:07.159 like you say, of who exactly is because there's so 189 00:12:07.159 --> 00:12:10.159 many there's so many different versions of what happened. But 190 00:12:10.799 --> 00:12:15.080 he allegedly had raped Laurie and then much later Michelle 191 00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:18.240 alleges that he had raped and it raped her. 192 00:12:18.440 --> 00:12:21.600 Now, I just think on their first dates, both two 193 00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:26.120 on their first dates, first date with Michelle. 194 00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:30.159 Why it just seemed that Michelle, because she seems to 195 00:12:30.200 --> 00:12:33.000 be when we're jumping ahead here, But at least there's many, 196 00:12:33.080 --> 00:12:35.799 very many versions of stories that happened at different at 197 00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:40.960 both trials. But we're also talking about that the allegation 198 00:12:41.480 --> 00:12:44.559 at least comes up much later, no matter the date 199 00:12:45.240 --> 00:12:47.480 that she said had happened, but it comes up much later. 200 00:12:47.519 --> 00:12:51.000 So that seems to be convenient. But in your research 201 00:12:51.039 --> 00:12:54.759 yourself in this book, don't you do not find any 202 00:12:54.919 --> 00:12:59.360 evidence that Butch is inclined to be a rapist? 203 00:13:00.399 --> 00:13:00.480 Do? 204 00:13:01.039 --> 00:13:05.720 Well? He's never been charged with that crime, and so 205 00:13:06.000 --> 00:13:08.559 you know, legally you can't say, oh, yeah, I think 206 00:13:08.600 --> 00:13:13.759 he did this. But you know, the Show family certainly 207 00:13:13.799 --> 00:13:18.159 believes their daughter in her allegations. You know, they they 208 00:13:18.200 --> 00:13:23.399 did not choose to file charges against him before Laurie 209 00:13:23.440 --> 00:13:28.320 was murdered, and you know that's you know, that kind 210 00:13:28.320 --> 00:13:31.480 of enters into the story because it would give you know, 211 00:13:32.000 --> 00:13:37.639 by saying that the possibility existed that he was going 212 00:13:37.679 --> 00:13:39.600 to be charged with rape, that that would give him 213 00:13:39.639 --> 00:13:42.080 reason to want to kill her and I and so 214 00:13:42.159 --> 00:13:44.480 I think that you know, that was something that that 215 00:13:44.559 --> 00:13:51.200 Lisa Michelle and her lawyers, you know, latched onto. I 216 00:13:51.240 --> 00:13:54.279 have reason to not believe the Show family. You know, 217 00:13:54.679 --> 00:13:58.000 they're wonderful people who I again, I spent a great 218 00:13:58.039 --> 00:14:01.399 deal of time with them, and you know, so I 219 00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:04.159 don't have any reason to not believe them, But all 220 00:14:04.200 --> 00:14:06.759 I can say is he's not been charged with that crime. 221 00:14:07.840 --> 00:14:08.480 At that time. 222 00:14:08.519 --> 00:14:10.720 Why did they decide not to pursue it. 223 00:14:11.960 --> 00:14:14.840 I think that that there was an a certain amount 224 00:14:14.840 --> 00:14:17.799 of embarrassment. You know, they wanted to protect their daughter. 225 00:14:18.919 --> 00:14:26.039 She was already being harassed by Butch and Lisa Michelle Lambert, 226 00:14:26.200 --> 00:14:29.360 and so I think that they were really afraid to 227 00:14:29.399 --> 00:14:32.600 pursue that, and Laurie really didn't want to do it, 228 00:14:33.240 --> 00:14:35.159 and so I think her family, you know, her parents 229 00:14:35.159 --> 00:14:38.440 just sort of deferred to her wishes, and you know, 230 00:14:40.200 --> 00:14:42.080 you know, again, I mean this was some time ago, 231 00:14:42.200 --> 00:14:47.440 and and you know, the idea of bringing a sixteen 232 00:14:47.480 --> 00:14:49.840 year old into court and having to undergo all that 233 00:14:49.919 --> 00:14:52.759 kind of scrutiny, I think the family just wanted to 234 00:14:53.320 --> 00:14:57.200 put it aside. You know, let's just you know, we're 235 00:14:57.200 --> 00:14:59.120 going to get our daughter the help that she needs, 236 00:14:59.240 --> 00:15:01.200 and we're gonna, we know, we're going to be with 237 00:15:01.240 --> 00:15:04.159 her and support her. But let's just leave that in 238 00:15:04.200 --> 00:15:07.000 the past and move on, and hopefully these people will 239 00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:07.960 leave us alone. 240 00:15:09.159 --> 00:15:12.720 But that information did come to their attention via their daughter. 241 00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:13.879 Am I correct? 242 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:16.519 And that's that's why that there is That's why I 243 00:15:16.519 --> 00:15:21.039 wanted to raise that point about Butch having that information 244 00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:24.759 because that was part of later what he says there 245 00:15:24.799 --> 00:15:26.159 was a reason, and that's part. 246 00:15:26.039 --> 00:15:28.399 Of the motive or rationale for this. 247 00:15:29.360 --> 00:15:29.559 Right. 248 00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:34.799 Okay, Let well, were we jumped ahead just like we 249 00:15:34.879 --> 00:15:38.039 had mentioned that we would. But let's go back a 250 00:15:38.080 --> 00:15:43.399 little bit because obviously that there's a couple other characters 251 00:15:43.399 --> 00:15:45.919 involved here. But let's get to Michelle Lambert. 252 00:15:45.960 --> 00:15:47.720 Who is she? How old is she? 253 00:15:49.240 --> 00:15:52.159 Tell us everything about her and her background before we 254 00:15:52.200 --> 00:15:53.600 get too far into the story. 255 00:15:55.639 --> 00:15:58.679 Michelle is in her late teens, just a slight bit 256 00:15:58.759 --> 00:16:04.000 older than Laurie at the time, and she came from 257 00:16:04.039 --> 00:16:09.519 a very religious family, you know, very structured. You know. 258 00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:14.559 She in fact says that at one point that because 259 00:16:15.240 --> 00:16:18.480 because Butch raped her and that he was the first 260 00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:20.360 person that she had had sex with, that that meant 261 00:16:20.360 --> 00:16:21.879 he had to be the one that she would marry. 262 00:16:22.360 --> 00:16:27.759 That that was her upbringing. And at the she had 263 00:16:28.919 --> 00:16:32.720 some you know, good relationships with her family and then 264 00:16:33.159 --> 00:16:35.679 had you know, had been estranged at the time that 265 00:16:35.759 --> 00:16:40.480 this happened. Her parents were not speaking to her. They 266 00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:46.279 they had you know, they they were of all these families. 267 00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:48.000 I mean, they were more a little bit more well 268 00:16:48.039 --> 00:16:51.799 to do than the others, and had a really lovely 269 00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:56.600 house and had I think two sons, as I recall, 270 00:16:56.679 --> 00:17:02.200 and then had had several miscarriages. That that Lisa Michelle 271 00:17:02.200 --> 00:17:04.400 And I keep calling her Lisa Michelle because sometimes she 272 00:17:04.519 --> 00:17:08.759 was Michelle and sometimes she was Lisa, which you know, 273 00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:13.160 was all part of her psychosis, I think. But but 274 00:17:13.319 --> 00:17:18.200 she was you know, I mean, had a you know, 275 00:17:18.279 --> 00:17:21.400 pretty regular upbringing. But she did focus very much on 276 00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:25.799 the loss of these children. She considered the you know 277 00:17:25.839 --> 00:17:27.799 that they were members of the family. I mean, if 278 00:17:27.839 --> 00:17:29.920 anybody asked her, she would say, oh my, you know what, 279 00:17:29.960 --> 00:17:32.599 we have five in our family, you know, including the 280 00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:36.200 two miscarriages. So you know, I mean she had some 281 00:17:36.200 --> 00:17:38.519 some issues. She had some things going on in her head. 282 00:17:38.920 --> 00:17:42.759 Wait, the lucky landslides. You can get lucky just about anywhere. 283 00:17:43.559 --> 00:17:46.359 This is your captain speaking. We've got clear runway and 284 00:17:46.400 --> 00:17:48.319 the weather's five. But we're just gonna circle up here 285 00:17:48.319 --> 00:17:51.440 a while and get lucky. 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Tell us 309 00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:07.240 that to the extent that they were disappointed and why. 310 00:19:08.160 --> 00:19:12.240 Well, they were disappointed in her relationship with Butch Youngkin, 311 00:19:12.519 --> 00:19:14.640 knowing that you know, that she had had sex with him, 312 00:19:15.319 --> 00:19:18.599 and that that and that, and that that he had 313 00:19:18.640 --> 00:19:23.200 been that he had been abusive toward her, that they 314 00:19:23.279 --> 00:19:27.480 say that they saw him hit her. And at that point, 315 00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:30.519 you know, it was that was it. They didn't, you know, 316 00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:33.119 they if she was not going to leave him, she 317 00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:36.400 was going to remain in a relationship like that, then 318 00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:38.640 they didn't you know, they didn't approve it, and they 319 00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:41.440 didn't want to have anything to do with her at 320 00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:45.839 the time right before this, you know, at the time 321 00:19:45.880 --> 00:19:48.960 when when she became estrange with her parents, she wasn't 322 00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:53.039 pregnant and they didn't know that. And it was only 323 00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:58.519 just a short, very short period of time before Laurie 324 00:19:58.599 --> 00:20:00.839 Show was murdered that mis I found out that she 325 00:20:01.039 --> 00:20:05.079 was pregnant. So I think, you know, and I mean, 326 00:20:05.519 --> 00:20:07.680 I'm jumping ahead again, but I mean, you know, once 327 00:20:07.799 --> 00:20:10.960 the family learned that there was a child and that 328 00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:13.599 there was this situation and that their daughter was in 329 00:20:13.640 --> 00:20:18.319 this you know, grave situation, they did rally around and 330 00:20:18.359 --> 00:20:20.559 they you know, they went to a trial and and 331 00:20:20.559 --> 00:20:21.880 and they raised her child. 332 00:20:23.240 --> 00:20:28.079 Right now, what what what we haven't really described what youngkin? 333 00:20:28.599 --> 00:20:31.559 What's his size? Is he imposing figure? Does he look 334 00:20:31.640 --> 00:20:33.960 like a mean nasty guy? 335 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:35.359 What? What does he really look like? 336 00:20:36.200 --> 00:20:42.000 Well, he's a I think you know, if you looked 337 00:20:42.039 --> 00:20:46.319 at him, then you would think that he certainly was 338 00:20:46.359 --> 00:20:49.039 an imposing guy. And he was big, he was muscular, 339 00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:53.960 he was he he had he was attractive, you know, 340 00:20:54.119 --> 00:20:57.480 and and kind of I mean he had long string 341 00:20:57.519 --> 00:21:00.480 of hair, but I mean he had very chisel, you know, 342 00:21:00.799 --> 00:21:06.519 good looks, blonde. You know, he was somebody who if 343 00:21:06.720 --> 00:21:09.160 he walked into a room, you know, many women would 344 00:21:09.160 --> 00:21:10.160 turn around and look at him. 345 00:21:11.319 --> 00:21:11.680 Okay. 346 00:21:11.720 --> 00:21:17.440 And you know, similarly, Michelle, you know, was a very 347 00:21:17.480 --> 00:21:21.079 pretty pretty girl. I mean blonde, long blonde hair, and 348 00:21:22.680 --> 00:21:27.240 you know, not particularly petite, but not I mean, she 349 00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:29.319 wasn't overweight by any means. I mean, she was just 350 00:21:29.400 --> 00:21:33.319 kind of an average height. And you know, they made 351 00:21:33.480 --> 00:21:36.480 quite a nice, you know, nice looking couple, the two 352 00:21:36.480 --> 00:21:36.839 of them. 353 00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:42.079 And then we talked about the longtime girlfriend. So how 354 00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:45.720 long had they been going out with each other at 355 00:21:45.759 --> 00:21:49.359 this point we're talking the summer of we'll say, summer 356 00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:53.000 of nineteen ninety one. 357 00:21:53.079 --> 00:21:56.599 I am really not recalling, to be perfectly honest. I 358 00:21:56.640 --> 00:21:58.519 mean it had been sometime. It had been more than 359 00:21:58.680 --> 00:22:03.119 a year or so, I think, and and you know 360 00:22:03.160 --> 00:22:05.920 which in a teenage relationship, that's a long time. 361 00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:08.559 Oh yeah, certainly. 362 00:22:09.359 --> 00:22:13.640 But I mean Michelle considered him to be her the 363 00:22:13.720 --> 00:22:17.839 love of her life. I mean she thought he was it. 364 00:22:18.519 --> 00:22:23.240 And you know when they when they broke up, she 365 00:22:23.480 --> 00:22:26.519 was devastated. I mean there's no doubt about that that 366 00:22:28.079 --> 00:22:31.400 you know that he he want, you know, he was 367 00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:33.880 somebody that she wanted to have a relationship with for 368 00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:35.559 the rest of her life. 369 00:22:35.880 --> 00:22:39.240 Why did they break up in that spring summer. 370 00:22:39.160 --> 00:22:41.279 Nineteen ninety one? What was what was the reason? 371 00:22:42.920 --> 00:22:45.119 Well, they I think that they you know, they were 372 00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:49.680 not getting along. They were he Butch thought that she 373 00:22:49.799 --> 00:22:55.079 that she was cheating on him, and that he had 374 00:22:55.519 --> 00:22:57.920 got you know, he had met Laurie by that point, 375 00:22:58.039 --> 00:23:00.680 and I think he was interested in her. So I 376 00:23:00.680 --> 00:23:03.000 think that there were a lot of reasons. You know 377 00:23:03.119 --> 00:23:07.279 that that just you know, in that kind of emotional 378 00:23:08.759 --> 00:23:12.960 upheaval of you know, and I hate to say young love, 379 00:23:13.079 --> 00:23:16.319 because this was this was not your the kind of 380 00:23:16.359 --> 00:23:18.640 relationship that you would hope for your children. You know, 381 00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:27.599 this was a constant bickering, fighting, abusive, you know, people controlling, 382 00:23:28.039 --> 00:23:32.799 trying to control each other, Lisa, Michelle and Butch. You know, 383 00:23:32.960 --> 00:23:36.920 some of Butch's friends would say, well, you know Michelle 384 00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:41.079 is too controlling, she's she's trying, you know, Butch's hindpack now. 385 00:23:41.720 --> 00:23:44.000 And then you know, her friends would say, well, look 386 00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:46.799 at what he's done to her. And she infected. I mean, 387 00:23:46.839 --> 00:23:50.160 she changed her entire appearance for him. She dyed her hair, 388 00:23:50.440 --> 00:23:55.480 she got contact lenses to change her eye color. She 389 00:23:57.279 --> 00:24:01.519 wore lots and lots of makeup, which he liked, and 390 00:24:02.279 --> 00:24:06.240 skimpy clothes because he liked that. So, I mean, there 391 00:24:06.319 --> 00:24:09.400 was a you know, if you based on what people 392 00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:12.079 look like and how they're reacting to a relationship, you 393 00:24:12.119 --> 00:24:15.279 would have to say that Butch had more control over 394 00:24:15.319 --> 00:24:18.160 her than she did him, just because of the fact 395 00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:22.119 that she completely reinvented herself. And at that point, you know, 396 00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:25.799 she was Lisa Lambert to her family before that, and 397 00:24:25.880 --> 00:24:28.119 when he met her, he said, I don't like the 398 00:24:28.200 --> 00:24:31.400 name Lisa. What's your middle name? And she said Michelle 399 00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:34.319 And he said, well, you're Michelle now, and she was. 400 00:24:35.079 --> 00:24:39.000 Yeah, it's controlling, for sure. And at this point, she's 401 00:24:39.079 --> 00:24:42.680