Speaker 1: Hello, this is Michael Foley. I am the author of
Speaker 1: Why We Kiss Under the Mistletoe Christmas Traditions Explained, and
Speaker 1: you are listening to The Doctor Sky Experience on WABC Radio.
Speaker 2: Welcome, ladies and gentlemen to the iconic radio show The
Speaker 2: Doctor Sky Experience, heard on America's iconic radio station, Talk
Speaker 2: Radio seventy seven WABC out of New York City and
Speaker 2: around the world, the crown Jewel of Talk great guest
Speaker 2: on The Doctor Sky Experience. And as we move into
Speaker 2: the Holidays twenty twenty two, who better than a gentleman
Speaker 2: named Michael P. Foley to talk about his brand new book,
Speaker 2: Why We Kiss under the Missiletoe Christmas Traditions Explain. But
Speaker 2: first a little background on our very special guest, and
Speaker 2: then a little segue into some of the things that
Speaker 2: you probably knew and probably don't know about these great
Speaker 2: Christmas traditions. Doctor Michael P. Foley is a Professor of
Speaker 2: Patristics in the Great Texts Program at Baylor University, a
Speaker 2: professor of theology at the Aquinas Institute, and the author
Speaker 2: over four hundred articles and fourteen books, including Drinking with
Speaker 2: the Saints, Drinking with Saint Nick Drinking with Your Patron Saints,
Speaker 2: and the Politically Incorrect Guide to Christianity. Mike and his
Speaker 2: wife Alexandra live in their adopted hometown of Waco, Texas,
Speaker 2: where they enjoy spending the Christmas Holidays with their six children,
Speaker 2: twelve chickens, two turtles, one dog, and twelve thousand bees.
Speaker 2: The name of the book here on the Not to
Speaker 2: Sky Experience is Why We Kiss Under the Missiletoe And
Speaker 2: a little backstory on the book before we talk with
Speaker 2: our special guest. Everyone is Christmas traditions that make the
Speaker 2: season so special, but people rarely stop to think about
Speaker 2: why they hold these traditions so near and dear to
Speaker 2: their hearts. Author of the best selling Drinking with the Saints,
Speaker 2: Michael pe Poly delves into the history behind the season's
Speaker 2: favorite traditions in Why We Kiss under the Missiletoe, Christmas
Speaker 2: traditions explain without a hearty welcome to Michael p. Foly. Michael,
Speaker 2: good afternoon and Merry Christmas to you and your family.
Speaker 2: How are you?
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Good afternoon and Merry Christmas to
Speaker 1: you as well.
Speaker 2: Wow, this is the one that knocks it out of
Speaker 2: the park. Michael, I know you are really outstanding, and
Speaker 2: I know we're looking for the same thing, and I
Speaker 2: guarantee it'll happen here because of what's contained in the
Speaker 2: books that you write. Drinking with the Saints was awesome,
Speaker 2: and so many of my friends that even those that
Speaker 2: didn't like adult beverages, they certainly appreciate all the backstory
Speaker 2: on these the drinks any correlation to many of the
Speaker 2: great science. But we begin this interview, I wanted to
Speaker 2: talk about something that I've been talking about, and we've
Speaker 2: gotten some scholars who also have talked about some of
Speaker 2: the theories. I've been going around the country on our shows,
Speaker 2: you know, via radio and technology, talking about what we
Speaker 2: believe to be the origins of the Great Star of Bethlehem.
Speaker 2: But let's start off, as the book does, with the
Speaker 2: origin of Christmas, and let's say the Christmas Star the
Speaker 2: wise Men give us a little inspiration as we move
Speaker 2: into the season exactly or on insight into this particular
Speaker 2: story of how this whole Christmas season got started, at
Speaker 2: least from the Bible. As one who studies this deeply, Oh.
Speaker 1: My gosh, where to begin. The history of Christmas is
Speaker 1: so wonderfully tangled and controversial, but it does make for
Speaker 1: a fascinating history. So we do have the infancy narratives,
Speaker 1: and there are critics who say the details don't all
Speaker 1: add up, the defendants who say, no, you're reading it wrong.
Speaker 1: They do add up if you just look at this.
Speaker 1: Rather than that, we're still not exactly certain when Jesus
Speaker 1: Christ was born. Was it December twenty fifth, was it
Speaker 1: some other time? Was it March? I guess the thing
Speaker 1: that I learned from doing all the research is, even
Speaker 1: if we can't prove a lot of these early Christian beliefs,
Speaker 1: nor can we disprove them, maybe it is unlikely that
Speaker 1: December twenty fifth was the birthday of Jesus, but it's
Speaker 1: not impossible, especially if you read the gospel according to
Speaker 1: Luke in a certain way, the chronology could very easily
Speaker 1: line up. So we shouldn't naively believe that Jesus was
Speaker 1: born on December twenty fifth, but we should just as naively,
Speaker 1: just as naively believe that this is just you know,
Speaker 1: a myth or a fabricated date.
Speaker 2: Interesting a little backstory from you on the three wise Men.
Speaker 2: I mean, I've tried the research this as best as
Speaker 2: I can, and what I get out of it from
Speaker 2: other scholars like yourself, three wise men possibly coming from
Speaker 2: say areas like what today is presently Iraq, maybe northern Iran,
Speaker 2: and maybe some even say farther out to the east.
Speaker 2: What say you as we move forward to talk about
Speaker 2: these great Christmas traditions.
Speaker 1: I have no idea, you know. Our best guess is
Speaker 1: that magi were Zoroastrian priests and scholars, like you said,
Speaker 1: from present day Iran. In Iraq. We don't know the number.
Speaker 1: In the It just says magi came to visit the
Speaker 1: infant Jesus. It doesn't say how many. So in the
Speaker 1: Greek Orthodox Church, I believe they hold that twelve magi came.
Speaker 1: The West, of course, has this tradition of three magi
Speaker 1: who represents the three quote races of the Earth or
Speaker 1: the three descent of Noah. And so you have Gasper, Melchior,
Speaker 1: and Baltazar coming from different.
Speaker 2: Parts of the world exactly. You know. I hope every
Speaker 2: talk show host says, I asked you this question, and
Speaker 2: believe me, I'm going to ask it to find patristics
Speaker 2: to us because I have never and I'm always honest
Speaker 2: with the audience and honest with you I've never heard
Speaker 2: the term before, but you are the scholar of this
Speaker 2: and to fine it so that everybody can understand it.
Speaker 1: It is not a well known term, but it's a
Speaker 1: pretty simple idea. Patristics is the study of the early
Speaker 1: church fathers, and the early church fathers were the great
Speaker 1: Christian luminaries from the end of the composition of the Bible.
Speaker 1: It's about one hundred AD to maybe seven hundred ADS,
Speaker 1: so the first six hundred years of Christianity amazing.
Speaker 2: Let's talk a little bit more about Advent. I mean,
Speaker 2: I was brought up as a Catholic and follow up
Speaker 2: any of the rituals. You know, this isn't about me,
Speaker 2: but as an altar boy, I was old enough to
Speaker 2: have to in the time period. Back in my time,
Speaker 2: the Lamas in Latin was something that I tried very
Speaker 2: hard to know and had to recite. But Advent is
Speaker 2: so important to the Christian community. Talk about it and
Speaker 2: some of the early things like Advent calendars and Advent wraiths.
Speaker 2: As we move toward the Christmas.
Speaker 1: Season, Advent is a wonderful time. It's a very brackish season,
Speaker 1: if you will. It's this strange mix of penance and
Speaker 1: jubilation penance because we're getting ready for the Lord and
Speaker 1: is coming. Jubilation because the Lord is coming, so we're
Speaker 1: both excited and trepidacious. And our Advent customs sort of
Speaker 1: reflect that our liturgies have violet vestments, purple vestments, the
Speaker 1: gloria is suppressed. There are other sort of signs of sorrow.
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, the text themselves and the
Speaker 1: customs of Advent are joyful and almost sort of giddy.
Speaker 1: Though you mentioned two big customs, the Advent calendar we're
Speaker 1: literally counting down the days to when Jesus comes, and
Speaker 1: the Advent reef, which is now a very popular symbol
Speaker 1: started by Lutherans in Germany and I think the nineteenth century,
Speaker 1: but has very quickly spread to Christians of all stripes.
Speaker 2: So much to talk abob and so little time to
Speaker 2: do it. If you're just joining us, ladies and gentlemen,
Speaker 2: we're Janana to have Michael p. Fole, the author of
Speaker 2: many books, author of a book that we had him
Speaker 2: on and knocked it out of the park as always,
Speaker 2: the author of that book Drinking with the Saints. He's
Speaker 2: here today to talk with us throughout a brand new
Speaker 2: regnary history book that's available wherever good books are sold,
Speaker 2: entitledment of the book, or the book entitled I should
Speaker 2: say Why we Kiss under the mizzletone Christmas Traditions explained.
Speaker 2: We're here to talk about these amazing traditions, many of
Speaker 2: which as I read the book, I'm just so amazed by.
Speaker 2: As we get in to celebrate the birth of the
Speaker 2: Christ Child, here with our very special guests, and you're
Speaker 2: listening to the Doctor Sky Experience on America's iconic radio station,
Speaker 2: that is Talk Radio seventy seven WABC at New York
Speaker 2: City and around the world at WABC radio dot Com,
Speaker 2: the crown jewel of Talk radio. Michael, thank you for
Speaker 2: spending some time in this pre Christmas edition. As we
Speaker 2: move forward to a new year of twenty twenty three.
Speaker 2: You know, you describe things like the Jesse tree. Never
Speaker 2: heard of it before, describe it. It's something fascinating that people.
Speaker 2: It opens up our minds.
Speaker 1: The Jesse tree is a relatively recent custom. The idea
Speaker 1: behind it is not The idea behind it is the
Speaker 1: family tree of Jesus.
Speaker 2: What is it?
Speaker 1: And of course we get genealogies in the Gospels about
Speaker 1: the ancestry of Jesus, but it is a tree or
Speaker 1: a bush with different symbols of Jesus's ancestors who is
Speaker 1: described ancestors are described as coming from the root of Jesse.
Speaker 1: Jesse was King David's father, and so there like the
Speaker 1: week before Christmas, you'll start to put these ancestors on
Speaker 1: the tree, the Jesse tree, that is, as a way
Speaker 1: of building up to the birth of the Messiah.
Speaker 2: It's interesting, you know, one of the most powerful chapters
Speaker 2: that I get of the book, and all of them
Speaker 2: are outstanding, but the story of something that many people
Speaker 2: may not recognize, and the predecessor or maybe Santa Claus.
Speaker 2: And there's so many iterations, but give us a little
Speaker 2: more detailed explanation. And as you described the book in
Speaker 2: the book, the real Saint Nicholas of Myra. This is fascinating.
Speaker 2: I'm all ears on this one. Michael's Blue Please Well.
Speaker 1: I really fell in love with Saint Nicholas of Myra
Speaker 1: as a result of researching this book. There are two
Speaker 1: chapters on him, one who he is and then two
Speaker 1: the legends about him that eventually morphed into anaclause. But
Speaker 1: he really was a great man. He was a Catholic bishop,
Speaker 1: in present day Turkey in the fourth century, and he
Speaker 1: was basically known as the people's champion. This was the
Speaker 1: guy who had your back. He protected you from unjust
Speaker 1: rulers who imposed heavy taxes from people falsely accusing you
Speaker 1: of murder. He's most famously associated with saving three daughters
Speaker 1: of a poor man from prostitution by giving them money
Speaker 1: to have a dowery for a proper marriage. So he
Speaker 1: was this great patron of the little guy. And then
Speaker 1: over time his legends only grew and grew and grew,
Speaker 1: and there heard some really colorful legends about him from
Speaker 1: the Middle Ages. And then the huge shift happened in
Speaker 1: the early nineteenth century when within almost ten years he
Speaker 1: suddenly morphed into Santa Claus.
Speaker 2: Amazing. So it's kind of and I'm being serious, not
Speaker 2: to be funny. It's almost like having a court appointed
Speaker 2: attorney on your side if you couldn't afford it for
Speaker 2: the poor, who would want defend you against the blasphemy
Speaker 2: and all kinds of things that were lies, innuendos and
Speaker 2: what have you. In other words, a man who cared
Speaker 2: about people beyond what most people would ever imagine.
Speaker 1: Correct, that is exactly right, and there's a lot of confusion.
Speaker 1: You mentioned your Catholic background, doctors. There's a lot of confusion,
Speaker 1: at least among non Catholics about the nature of a
Speaker 1: patron saint because you kind of look at it from
Speaker 1: the outside. You think, well, this is some kind of
Speaker 1: arrangement for recovering polytheists, right that you used to pray
Speaker 1: to the Goddess Diana for a good harvest, but you
Speaker 1: can't do that anymore, so I or just prayed to
Speaker 1: Saint Agatha or whatever. But the real impetus behind it
Speaker 1: is the patron client relationship of the Roman Empire. A patron,
Speaker 1: just like you were saying, is a big shot. He's
Speaker 1: an influencer in the town, and you are his client,
Speaker 1: which means you are protected by him. You pay him homage,
Speaker 1: and in turn he has your back. Well, by the
Speaker 1: time you get to the late Roman Empire, the place
Speaker 1: is falling apart, and people are cynical about government officials,
Speaker 1: holy Catholic bishops and kind of step in and take
Speaker 1: the role of a patron. You know, the Roman officials
Speaker 1: can't dismiss a bishop. They know he's important, and so
Speaker 1: he will step in to protect you when you are
Speaker 1: being attacked by you know, the big government or whatever.
Speaker 2: Well, this is amazing. I mean many of the things
Speaker 2: that happen. In other words, history repeats itself, and the
Speaker 2: story that we're talking about here with Saint Nick, but
Speaker 2: in a respectful way, but also in a way to
Speaker 2: bring people's minds to the attention of maybe more or music.
Speaker 2: We're gonna hear a rendition of the Beach Boys as
Speaker 2: they sing a very interesting song in the beauty of
Speaker 2: the holiday season, the song of Little Saint Nick. And
Speaker 2: this is performed of course by the Beach Boys. Very
Speaker 2: apropos time to hear, to celebrate in the joyous festivities
Speaker 2: of Christmas. But ladies and gentlemen more important, our very
Speaker 2: special guest, Michael P. Foley a book not only the
Speaker 2: color I just love, very Victorian, as we have the
Speaker 2: title Why We Kiss under the Missiletoe. Christmas Traditions explain.
Speaker 3: Christmas, Christmas come this time.
Speaker 4: Well way up Norsworthy ergis, there's a tale about Christmas
Speaker 4: that you love in and Thames dressed up and written
Speaker 4: eighty sense of all year working out it is then it's.
Speaker 3: The It's the little same, the same, just as the
Speaker 3: little Bob slip you go a little same dick, but
Speaker 3: you walk into the.
Speaker 4: Fgon do the first mist you Candy apple Man with
Speaker 4: the steep world wheel and the sad against the gas man.
Speaker 3: Just watching review. It's the good the same nig same,
Speaker 3: It's the little same nick same a run rid rain,
Speaker 3: the run right rain.
Speaker 4: Rain.
Speaker 2: You don't miss no one.
Speaker 4: I'm holling through the snow at a right to speed
Speaker 4: with the half a dozen year with the rain lea.
Speaker 4: He's gottaware with goggles cos the snow really flies.
Speaker 3: And he's goosing everywhere with the little sprid. It's the
Speaker 3: little same the same. It's the little same day, the
Speaker 3: same Christmas.
Speaker 2: J Michael, this is amazing and it's a short read,
Speaker 2: and I gather you know, I have to ask you
Speaker 2: the question. It's very simple. I mean, obviously you are
Speaker 2: the scholar and the patristics, but why this book about Christmas?
Speaker 2: I mean it comes through in your voice that there's
Speaker 2: this great passion so this compilation, I mean, can you
Speaker 2: describe it. You were sitting, let's say, with your family,
Speaker 2: or you're out somewhere fishing or doing something. One day
Speaker 2: it just hits you and said, hey, I got to
Speaker 2: do a book about this. Describe that whole chain of thought.
Speaker 1: Well, I don't know if it was a single moment,
Speaker 1: but you're absolutely right. And of course I'm not unique.
Speaker 1: As a kid, I loved Christmas and I was always
Speaker 1: fascinated by the Christmas symbols. What other time in the
Speaker 1: American year do you have a season so chock full
Speaker 1: of symbols? And so I wondered about them as a kid.
Speaker 1: You know, why do we deck the halls with hours
Speaker 1: of holly and not boxwood? You know, what's the deal
Speaker 1: about the Christmas tree? And why do we kiss under
Speaker 1: the missiletoe? So as an adult, you know, becoming a
Speaker 1: college professor, I developed, you know, skills of research, and
Speaker 1: I was able to dig deep and get some answers
Speaker 1: to my questions.
Speaker 2: Amazing. Yes, it's a great read and a little I
Speaker 2: don't want to call it a pocket book. How would
Speaker 2: you describe it. It's in between that as a hardcover.
Speaker 2: It's just simply something that you can't put down. And
Speaker 2: everybody within the sound of this particular interview, they definitely
Speaker 2: should get a copy of this coming to us from
Speaker 2: the great Regnary people. But it's Regnary history, and they
Speaker 2: can find this wherever good books are sold, but also
Speaker 2: at regnoryhistory dot com. Let's talk about the other things.
Speaker 2: This really opened my eyes as we talk to Michael
Speaker 2: that you have a chapter here at chapter five, the Good,
Speaker 2: the Bad, and the Ugly Stanta's Helper. I once heard
Speaker 2: that there was some dark images of the anti Santa,
Speaker 2: and you describe some of these. I almost found it
Speaker 2: hard to believe that. As raised as a Catholic, I
Speaker 2: never heard this. And you could describe to us something
Speaker 2: called Sert and also a being I guess called Crampus,
Speaker 2: I mean, and it goes on and on. Who were
Speaker 2: these entities? And I hope they're not real. Oh.
Speaker 1: One of the biggest surprises in researching this book was
Speaker 1: the dark side of Christmas. Yes, you know there are
Speaker 1: stories of witches and goblins and elves which were scary
Speaker 1: creatures before they were tamed to make toys for Santa.
Speaker 1: You know, when Dickens has Ebenezer Scrooge visited by three
Speaker 1: ghosts on Christmas Eve, he's not pulling that out of
Speaker 1: a hat. He's drawing from a very long and frightening
Speaker 1: tradition of ghost stories. So you've got that in the background.
Speaker 1: But then specifically, when Saint Nicholas visited children on the
Speaker 1: vigil of his feast to give gifts, which would be
Speaker 1: December fifth, he was often accompanied by a very spooky sidekick,
Speaker 1: and often it was a demon. In Austria and Germany
Speaker 1: it's Crampus. In the Czech Republic it's a demon named Church,
Speaker 1: which is actually just the check word for demon or devil.
Speaker 1: And they would often be chained. Sometimes an angel would
Speaker 1: be the one holding the chains. And it seems very strange,
Speaker 1: and you're thinking this is good for children, but it
Speaker 1: actually does show children how Saint Nicholas, as your patron,
Speaker 1: has your back, that God has blessed him with an
Speaker 1: ability to subdue evil.
Speaker 2: Amazing. Yeah, this is so amazing. It's so mind boggling
Speaker 2: because as a Catholic, and again I keep repeating that,
Speaker 2: because it was very much a kind of a blind
Speaker 2: folder when you're little, I mean everything. There wasn't any
Speaker 2: talk of the dark side. Of course, it was always
Speaker 2: the good, which I guess as a child helped me
Speaker 2: get through, you know, without hearing any of those dark
Speaker 2: side stories. But one thing you mentioned, you corrected me.
Speaker 2: I said, sirt and you say shirt. But the interesting
Speaker 2: thing is I was wondering because I'll never touch a
Speaker 2: cert mint again for bad breaths something. But on a
Speaker 2: lighter I hear you. Now this is quite fascinating and
Speaker 2: on the other side of the coin you describe this
Speaker 2: is amazing. Saint Lucy, I never knew that she is
Speaker 2: the patron saint of eyes and vision? Is this also
Speaker 2: a connection to the to the Christmas story too? There's
Speaker 2: a connection with her involving want this holiday and the
Speaker 2: spirit of Christmas.
Speaker 1: So her feast day is on December thirteenth, and especially
Speaker 1: in Scandinavian countries, but also almost the other side of
Speaker 1: the globe. For her native Syracuse, Italy, she is held
Speaker 1: in very high regard. I think the reason why she
Speaker 1: is loved in Scandinavian countries is that before the reform
Speaker 1: of the Gregorian calendar, the reform of the Julian calendar
Speaker 1: in the what was it seventeen hundreds, fifteen hundreds. In
Speaker 1: the old Julian calendar, December thirteenth was the winter solstice,
Speaker 1: so there was an association with light. We're getting longer days,
Speaker 1: and then Lucy's name means light in Latin, so you've
Speaker 1: got this happy coincidence, all kinds of light customs going on,
Speaker 1: and then she is the patron of light, which is,
Speaker 1: you know, the sort of patron of the eyes rather,
Speaker 1: which is sort of the window into the mind or
Speaker 1: the body. So all these things sort of tied together
Speaker 1: and made her feast stay a very.
Speaker 2: Festive one, beautiful. You know. I'm going to take deliverty
Speaker 2: Michael of injecting a poem that I had read from
Speaker 2: one of the shows that we were doing and still
Speaker 2: proudly do on Coast to Coast. I am, of course
Speaker 2: the nation, and they asked us to do this CD
Speaker 2: for Christmas many many years ago. So I'm somewhere in
Speaker 2: between one of the guys from one of the rock
Speaker 2: bands and Pat Boone, I guess, and we're somewhat in there.
Speaker 2: But I wanted to inject this, and it's apropos right now.
Speaker 2: It's a Christmas poem that I read about children being
Speaker 2: naughty and nice, And what better time to implant this
Speaker 2: in here, because you're talking about things that I never
Speaker 2: knew about about not just about the story of Saint
Speaker 2: Nicholas and then Santa Claus, but also some of these
Speaker 2: other darker forces out there. But it's an interesting rate.
Speaker 5: Nonetheless, it is said long ago that children from around
Speaker 5: the world would wake up on Christmas Day and find
Speaker 5: to their delight the gift of toys, the generosity from
Speaker 5: a man named Claus. But Claus thought that none of
Speaker 5: the children would ever know where the toys came from,
Speaker 5: and that being okay with him. But his kindly deeds
Speaker 5: that made so many children happy would carry to far
Speaker 5: lands and not go unrecognized. So for miles and miles
Speaker 5: in every direction, people were talking of Claws and his
Speaker 5: wonderful gifts to children. The sweet kindness of his work
Speaker 5: would remind folks of their respect for a man so
Speaker 5: gentle natured that he loved to devote his life to
Speaker 5: pleasing the helpless little ones. Therefore, the inhabitants of every
Speaker 5: city and village had been eagerly watching for the coming
Speaker 5: of Claus. Stories of beautiful playthings were told to the
Speaker 5: children to keep them patient and contented. When, on the
Speaker 5: morning following the trip of Claws with his deer, the
Speaker 5: little ones came running to their parents with the pretty
Speaker 5: toys they had found. And as from whence they came,
Speaker 5: there was put one reply to the question. The good
Speaker 5: Clause must have been here my darlings, for his are
Speaker 5: the only toys in all the world. But how did
Speaker 5: he get in, asked the children. At this The fathers
Speaker 5: shook their heads, being themselves unable to understand how claws
Speaker 5: had gained admittance to their homes. But the mothers, watching
Speaker 5: the glad faces of their dear ones, whispered that the
Speaker 5: good Claw was no mortal man, but assuredly a saint,
Speaker 5: and they blessed his name for the happiness he had
Speaker 5: bestowed upon the children. A saint, said, one with bowed
Speaker 5: head has no need to unlock doors if it pleases
Speaker 5: him to enter our homes. And from then on, when
Speaker 5: a child was naughty or disobedient, its mother would say,
Speaker 5: you must pray to the good Santa Claus for forgiveness,
Speaker 5: for naughty children will receive no more pretty toys. But
Speaker 5: Santa Claus himself would not have approved this speech. You see,
Speaker 5: he brought toys to the children because they were little
Speaker 5: and helpless, and because he loved them. He knew that
Speaker 5: the best of children were sometimes naughty, and that the
Speaker 5: naughty ones were often good. It's the way with children
Speaker 5: the world over, and that is how our Clause became
Speaker 5: Santa Claus and enshrined himself as a saint in the
Speaker 5: hearts of the people.
Speaker 2: But I gotta ask you about this. Describe to us
Speaker 2: this is going to be a missing this from the interview,
Speaker 2: and I wanted to hear it. Describe the transgression of
Speaker 2: how Saint Nicholas then moves on to become Santa Claus.
Speaker 2: I think everybody's interested to hear that story.
Speaker 1: That is such a bizarre transformation. I mean, think about it.
Speaker 1: You have a celibate bishop living in the Mediterranean and
Speaker 1: he somehow becomes married, living in the North Pole, elves
Speaker 1: are at his beck and call to make toys. He's
Speaker 1: driving a reindeer with sleigh or vice versa. It's just bizarre.
Speaker 1: So we from what we can tell, we owe a
Speaker 1: series of American authors from the early eighteen hundreds for
Speaker 1: all of this, So authors like Washington Irving and Clement
Speaker 1: Clark Moore. We're living in New York City and the
Speaker 1: Dutch had given the city Santa Claus and kept that
Speaker 1: custom alive when it was New Amsterdam. So they took
Speaker 1: these customs from the Dutch about Saint Nicholas. And then
Speaker 1: from what we can tell they may have taken elements
Speaker 1: from Norse mythology about Thor and Woden. Thor, for example,
Speaker 1: after whom our Thursday is named, was the god of fire,
Speaker 1: and so he bore red. He was associated with the chimney.
Speaker 1: He drove a chariot in the sky, pulled by two goats,
Speaker 1: and when the goats stepped on the clouds, it made thunder.
Speaker 1: And so they took these Norse elements. They took the
Speaker 1: legends of Saint Nicholas. They put them in a blender
Speaker 1: and they flipped on the switch, and that's how we
Speaker 1: got Santa Claus.
Speaker 2: That's amazing, and the timeline in which you described it
Speaker 2: very quickly. This also happened because we don't know as
Speaker 2: a celibate person, Saint Nicholas. He transforms himself into one
Speaker 2: a jolly, happy family man with astead of reindeer and
Speaker 2: a sleigh, and he's what mimicking as you're describing to
Speaker 2: us what the story of Thor. I guess this is
Speaker 2: also like the modern day version of what Thor would be.
Speaker 2: As we get into Santa Claus with his chariot and
Speaker 2: reindeer in the whole nine yards. That's interesting that really is. Oh,
Speaker 2: it's quite a stretch, kind of fascinating book here, you know,
Speaker 2: in the time allotted today, I'm bouncing all over the
Speaker 2: place on purpose here. But I think it's so important.
Speaker 2: The Christmas tree. Something is that iconic symbol. Story is
Speaker 2: about that, I mean, the origin of it. I would
Speaker 2: imagine people just go and in the old days, we
Speaker 2: went out to the forest, we chopped the tree down,
Speaker 2: and we planted it where in our house outside. But
Speaker 2: you've got some fascinating theories of the origin of the
Speaker 2: Christmas tree and the connection to Christmas.
Speaker 1: Well, that was a big surprise for me. I didn't
Speaker 1: realize that there were myths about Christmas myths and I
Speaker 1: grew up being told that the Christmas tree was a
Speaker 1: pagan yule Tide holdover. And indeed there are some pagan
Speaker 1: yule tied holdovers, mistletoe is one of them, having evergreens
Speaker 1: in your houses another. But it turns out that the
Speaker 1: Christmas tree is a quintessentially Christian invention.
Speaker 2: Interesting. Wow, that's an amazing story. But you described in
Speaker 2: the book, and I don't want to give everything away
Speaker 2: because I want people to read this and especially what
Speaker 2: they should do is get a copy of this as
Speaker 2: they're sitting around the fireplace or just sitting with family.
Speaker 2: And this is interesting. Except for certain chapters I probably
Speaker 2: wouldn't read to the children, but the beauty of the
Speaker 2: Christmas Tree and the story of Mistletoe, and many many
Speaker 2: other chapters could be read aloud. But I'm reading this
Speaker 2: that the symbology of red may come from a connection
Speaker 2: between Adam and Eve and that sacred apple that was
Speaker 2: Eden that's also in your book, right.
Speaker 1: Well, it is interesting that red and green have been
Speaker 1: come the colors of Christmas, But in terms of the
Speaker 1: worship of the Church, it's a very strange thing because
Speaker 1: the colors during December, like we were talking about a
Speaker 1: moment ago, are violet or purple. The color that the
Speaker 1: priest wears during the Christmas season is white. So where
Speaker 1: does the red and the green come from. One theory
Speaker 1: is that it's holly. It could be the Christmas tree
Speaker 1: with its greenness and its red balls, but it could
Speaker 1: also be holly. And the reason why holly was chosen
Speaker 1: as a Christmas decoration is that it reminded Christians of
Speaker 1: the Crucifixion. The prickly leaves recalled the crown of thorns,
Speaker 1: and the red berries recalled the drops of blood that
Speaker 1: our Lord would shed for humanity. And so the irony
Speaker 1: of Christmas having red and green as its colors is
Speaker 1: that it was inspired by a plant that reminded Christians
Speaker 1: of the Crucifixion, not the Nativity.
Speaker 2: Wow, there's so many I mean, if you were to
Speaker 2: PLoP this like on a big blackboard in a classroom,
Speaker 2: there's so many sidelines in this whole story that is
Speaker 2: so amazing. And because of your research. I mean, I
Speaker 2: always thought pretty much everything was linear. You know, you
Speaker 2: go from the Star of Bethlehem, the Birth of Jesus,
Speaker 2: and you go along this linear line. But you've got
Speaker 2: all these side fascinating stories from Saint Nicholas, how he
Speaker 2: became Santa, how all these different saints, some necessarily as
Speaker 2: we talk about these goblins and other dark Santa's coming
Speaker 2: to the picture. But here's one and I don't like
Speaker 2: reading from someone's book here you wrote it, but the chrysanthemum.
Speaker 2: And I'll quote here and I say this, When the
Speaker 2: Magi reached Bethlehem, they got lost in the dark until
Speaker 2: Miltshord discovered a chrysanthemum and picked it up. Immediately, the
Speaker 2: doors of a nearby stable flew open, revealing the Holy
Speaker 2: Family the significance of this flower in Christmas. I think
Speaker 2: I've said some of it, but what you write is
Speaker 2: I think, can please please tell us more?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I figured as a fan of the Magi
Speaker 1: that you would be drawn to the chrysanthemum.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, absolutely, It's amazing. It just keeps going on
Speaker 2: and on and on.
Speaker 1: There are a lot of wonderful legends about the Magi.
Speaker 1: By the way, there are different gift givers throughout the world,
Speaker 1: and in Italy the gift giver is an old woman
Speaker 1: named the Fauna, and she has a connection to the Magi.
Speaker 1: When they were on their way to Bethlehem, they stayed
Speaker 1: in her house. I guess she had an ancient airbnb.
Speaker 1: And they were amazed at what a great housekeeper she was,
Speaker 1: and indeed she was. She was extremely fastidious. So they
Speaker 1: were so impressed with her hospitality, they said, you should
Speaker 1: come join us, and so she said, great, I would
Speaker 1: love to meet the Messiah, but I just need to
Speaker 1: clean up first. And so they took off and she
Speaker 1: cleaned in the hopes of catching up with them. She
Speaker 1: spent too long cleaning up, and when she went out
Speaker 1: to find them, she couldn't and so she has spent
Speaker 1: the rest of history looking for the Christ Child.
Speaker 2: Wow, what a story. See that's totally amazing. And this
Speaker 2: is Michael P. Foldy research ladies and gentlemen that talks
Speaker 2: about in so much more detail than we have time
Speaker 2: for here, why we kiss under the missiletow Christmas traditions explain.
Speaker 2: But I want to just ask you a few more
Speaker 2: questions here and may really not questions, they're just observations
Speaker 2: that I find fascinating. I want to get to the
Speaker 2: main part of this interview, and it's the title of
Speaker 2: the book. Tell us as much as you want to
Speaker 2: about missiletoe and why we kiss under the missiletoe. This folks,
Speaker 2: I think, just really knocks it out of their part.
Speaker 1: Well, the short answer is the druids. The Druids thought
Speaker 1: missletoe was an amazing plant. It was green in the
Speaker 1: dead of winter, It grew without ever touching the soil.
Speaker 1: It had berries in the dead of winter, and not
Speaker 1: only berries, but white bear, which is relatively rare. And
Speaker 1: so they treated the missiletoe with great reverence. When they
Speaker 1: harvested it. They went through this elaborate ritual that can
Speaker 1: never touch the ground, and they often made peace under
Speaker 1: the missiletoe. So Christians, when Christianity came to those lands,
Speaker 1: they added their signature greeting, which is of course the kiss.
Speaker 1: The kiss of peace is a very biblical way of
Speaker 1: exchanging Christian peace.
Speaker 2: Wow. So the Christmas season doesn't just end. I mean
Speaker 2: many people think it ends obviously the day after Christmas,
Speaker 2: and maybe in my mind and many others, it's become
Speaker 2: too commercialized. But the true spirit of Christmas, as we
Speaker 2: read in your book, has much to do and not
Speaker 2: much to do about buying something. It's more about adoration, love,
Speaker 2: sharing kindness and doing things like that. But what happens,
Speaker 2: it goes on all the way as you describe book Epiphany,
Speaker 2: and then we talk about even a connection beyond that
Speaker 2: into the month of February. Short answer on.
Speaker 1: That, that's correct, and that's one of the downsides of
Speaker 1: the modern Christmas is that we keep starting the Christmas
Speaker 1: season earlier and earlier. This year, I saw jack O
Speaker 1: lanyards and Christmas trees side by side for sale in
Speaker 1: the store. We don't even wait for the day after Thanksgiving.
Speaker 2: It absolutely, absolutely and one of.
Speaker 1: The downsides of that is the more you stretch that out,
Speaker 1: by the time you get to December twenty fifth, you're
Speaker 1: practically sick of Christmas, which is unfortunate. So I do
Speaker 1: think the older model was better, which was, hey, let's
Speaker 1: still have joy. There is joy in advent, but let's
Speaker 1: focus on restraint and preparation. Then when Christmas Day comes,
Speaker 1: we pull out all the stops and we observe the
Speaker 1: twelve days of Christmas, this period of unbroken merriment between
Speaker 1: December twenty fifth and the Feast of the Epiphany on
Speaker 1: January sixth, And like you said, in some cases they
Speaker 1: found ways of extending the party even beyond January sixth.
Speaker 1: I think that's a better way to do it.
Speaker 2: My final question, and I'd like to do this again
Speaker 2: with you, and I'll ask you again about a new
Speaker 2: book maybe coming down the pike, but simply from your
Speaker 2: own words from the heart, what can Christians do to
Speaker 2: recapture the true spirit of Christmas?
Speaker 1: Well, actually, I would just what I said. I think
Speaker 1: obviously we keep the religious meaning in mind first and foremost,
Speaker 1: but also observing the season in a way in which
Speaker 1: there is a long period of restraint and joy, but
Speaker 1: then to really focus on the jubilants of Christmas and
Speaker 1: meditate on the mysteries of a nativity for those twelve days.
Speaker 2: Michael Foley, You're awesome guests and look forward to having
Speaker 2: you again. Any indication of something a sneak preview on
Speaker 2: this show, a little news breaking thing here that might
Speaker 2: be coming down As far as the next book.
Speaker 1: Title, absolutely, I've got a couple things in the pipeline.
Speaker 1: One is a cookbook. I have teamed up with Father
Speaker 1: Leo Patalinghug who is a very renowned chef. He has
Speaker 1: his own show on cable TV. We are doing Dining
Speaker 1: with the Saints, so we will be providing wonderful recipes
Speaker 1: for the feast days of the church here and he
Speaker 1: and I are also hosting a riverboat pilgrimage cruise in
Speaker 1: April of next year where we will go through We
Speaker 1: will cruise down the Dual River through Portugal and Spain
Speaker 1: and it's going to be great fun and we invite
Speaker 1: everyone to join us.
Speaker 2: Is there a website that people can go to Michael
Speaker 2: that you suggest?
Speaker 1: Absolutely, so, go to Drinking withthe Saints dot com that
Speaker 1: will give you information about the cruise and You can
Speaker 1: also like and follow us on Facebook. We have a
Speaker 1: Drinking with the Saints page and Instagram which is Drinking Saints.
Speaker 2: Thank you. Michael Foley, stay on the line with us
Speaker 2: as we go to that hardbot. Yes, ladies and gentlemen,
Speaker 2: we wish each and every one of you, as I'm
Speaker 2: sure Michael and his family do, are most merry, joyous
Speaker 2: and healthy. Merry Christmas and a great, healthy and happy
Speaker 2: twenty twenty three. You're listening to me Steve Kates the
Speaker 2: Doctor Sky Experience here on America's iconic radio station again,
Speaker 2: Talk Radio seventy seven WABC out of New York City
Speaker 2: and around the world on WABC radio dot Com, the
Speaker 2: crown jewel of talk radio, with great guests from the realms,
Speaker 2: normally of astronomy, space, aviation, and weather, celebrity guests in
Speaker 2: the mix, and very many guests from American exceptionalism. Thanks
Speaker 2: to our special guests Michael p. Foleing. We'll see you
Speaker 2: next week, ladies and gentlemen, with more adventures. As Doctor
Speaker 2: Sky always reminds everybody, always remember to keep your eyes
Speaker 2: to the skies, as I'm simply your navigator on the highway.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Michael thank you,