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Speaker 1: And now you get back to drinking. It's it's evening

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for me over here.

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Speaker 2: And I wasn't gonna drink, but I did anyway, So

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I'm half in the bag.

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Speaker 1: I'm not really half in the bag.

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Speaker 3: But you should definitely always drink.

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Speaker 4: Yes, ask not what your country can do for you,

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Ask what you can do for your country.

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Speaker 1: Mister Gorbachhaw tear down this wall.

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Speaker 5: It's the Ricochet Podcast with Charles C. W. Cook and

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Stephen Hayward. I'm James Lills. Today we're going to talk

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to urbanism with Joel Kotkin lets a podcast.

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Speaker 6: I probably took a bullet to the head because of

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the things that they say about me. They talk about democracy.

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I'm a threat to democracy. They're the threat to democracy.

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Rather fake Russia Russia Russia investigation.

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Speaker 1: That went nowhere. We have a lot to get to Lindsay.

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Speaker 5: Welcome everybody. It's the Ricchet Podcast, number seven hundred and eight.

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And if you add seven and eight you get fifteen.

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If you divided fifty by the number of hosts here,

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you well know, if you take fifteen and you add

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the numbers to get six, you divide that by the

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number of hosts.

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Speaker 1: Three come up with.

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Speaker 5: Two who were the number of people who were on

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the stage and the debate which we're going to talk

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about with Charles E. W.

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Speaker 1: Cook and Stephen Hayward And I'm James Lalyx. I met it.

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Speaker 5: I'm sitting at a long conference table here and downtown Minneapolis.

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Speaker 1: Steven's on a ship.

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Speaker 5: Charles is Florida, which has not been yet sawed off

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by bugs Bunny left to float into the Caribbean. And Stephen,

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you're in. You're taking the Norway cruise. Have you been

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to Stoppinger yet and seeing the Herring Museum.

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Speaker 1: No, I haven't been there.

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Speaker 2: I've been to Bergen and had a ton of salmon,

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and right now I have no idea what fjord I'm

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sailing along, but I'm keeping my eyes open for Michael

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Paluin's Norwegian blue parrot and having lots of aquafat. So I'm,

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you know, and happy that the debate because it was

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at three am local time, I did not watch, although

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it everything I've read went exactly.

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Speaker 1: As I predicted it would. Unfortunately, Charles, well.

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Speaker 3: I'm not near any fields, although I could be given up.

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How much rain we've had in the last ten days.

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Is now I live in a place apparently that just

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rains constantly all the time, one hundred percent of the time,

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all day, all night, whatever the time is, whatever the

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moment it rains. So I am sort of surrounded by

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honorary feuds like waterlged lawns and cracks and crevices that

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are full of water. You meant the debate, didn't you?

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Speaker 7: You weren't. We're looking for a water update.

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Speaker 1: Well, no, an aquavied and then a debate update.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Well, I mean I think that everything in the

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debate proceeded as people imagine that it would, in that

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Trump's behavior was in keeping with his previous behavior, and

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he responded to every single provocation that Harris threw at him,

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as she had telegraphed she was going to for three weeks.

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She said nothing of consequence, because she never does. She's

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flatly incapable of taking a position, thinking through a position,

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expressing a position, and the media is a national disgrace

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which should not again be trusted to mediate any sort

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of important conversation about the future of the United States.

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So what happened was precisely what I had imagined would happen,

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and I don't think it's going to have an enormous

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effect as the result.

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Speaker 1: No, I don't think so either.

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Speaker 5: I think the people who a lot of the people

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are going to be voting for Trump not because of

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what they think he will do, but because what they

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assume he won't, and that is the whole panoply of

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expansion of the state that they would expect to happen

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under either Harris the New or Harris the Old. She's

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of the party, she's of the blob, she's of the state.

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Air four don't want to vote for her. So they

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vote for Trump because they know he will not increase immigration,

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he will not raise your taxes, he will not enable

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the regulatory state, et cetera, et cetera. So it doesn't

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matter what he gets up there and says. It is

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just what people are just assume. I know what he's

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not gonna do. But there are those who are convinced

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that he will bring about, in his second opportunity, authoritarianism galore.

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And to that point, well, from the Hitler playbook, of course,

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you have to find another to demonize. You have to

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have some sort of xenophobic rant, and that's what we got.

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I guess two of the takeaways seem to be first

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they're eating cats and dogs. Now I have a take

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on this in that no, they're not.

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Speaker 1: They're not.

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Speaker 5: The Ohio woman who ate a cat was probably mentally ill,

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and she was not from Springfield. And the dog thing

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may or may not be apocryphal, but it doesn't matter

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because that's become sort of a stand in for the

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issues that suddenly have been thrust the foe by the

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Springfield Haitian situation. So I'd like you guys take on this.

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Do you think that everybody on the right is absolutely

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fulminating and fizzing and going effervescently crazy over something that

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is not happening and is not a problem and if

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it was, it'd be fine, or is you know, Stephen,

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what do you think from your distance?

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Speaker 1: What do you think? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Well, so, first of all, the real headline here is

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I think what the real grabber is. Wait a minute,

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This little town of what sixty five thousand people took

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in or had imposed on a twenty thousand Haitian immigrants

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in a short period of time that nobody knew this,

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I think, right?

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Speaker 1: And you know, I am tempted to go with jokes

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because I like to.

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Speaker 2: I kept thinking, well, there has to be a Simpsons

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episode that predicted this for Springfield, because the Simpsons always

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seem to be ahead of what was happening in the future.

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And a few people sent me suggestions, I want to

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make jokes about voodoo economics, you know, I always thought

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was the problem with Haiti right in their economy. Then

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we didn't. We're supposed to be against that, right. But finally,

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and you know, a gat more halfway serious, I think

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you're right that this is at the very least has

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to be greatly exaggerated. On the other hand, the explosion

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of the memes tells us something I think we know

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here and in Europe that and you see the neglection

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results that there's huge resentment by a broadcross section of Americans,

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of Europeans, of the open immigration that's been pushed upon

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US diversities, our strength and all the ideology that goes

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with us and the media and our political class, and

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for large part in both parties have simply ignored it,

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repressed it, won't acknowledge it's happening, won't acknowledge any reasonable

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concerns about it. And so it doesn't surprise me that

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you have a explosion of memes, and you know, they're

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just it's unbelievable how this is all spun out this week,

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And that's very postmodern in a certain way. Right the

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postmodernists say, truth in quotation marks is what's created by

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our images and all the rest of that. So in

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a certain way, this is the right wing's own postmodernist

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revenge on the left.

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Speaker 1: Exactly. The specifics don't matter.

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Speaker 5: The picture of a cat Ai generated kitty with an

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AK forty seven stands in for a series of legitimate

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arguments and conversations about immigrants.

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Speaker 1: It just does it.

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Speaker 5: Just that's how the brain wires. So even when he

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says they're eating cats and dogs. You may not believe it,

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you may not know what, it may not be true.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't matter.

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Speaker 5: It connects something to an argument that I don't know

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if we're gonna have that conversation.

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Speaker 1: We'll see.

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Speaker 5: But Charles, what did you think of the.

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Speaker 3: I think that unfortunately, what you've just described works the

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other way around, which is why, among many other reasons,

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I'm not a postmodernist. That is to say that directionally,

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the right in the United States and the Republican Party

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and Donald Trump are correct about immigration. They're correct about

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the problem at the border. They're correct about what all

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of these illegal immigrants due to communities that are not

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willing or able to absorb them. And if rather than

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make that case, which is I think irrefutable, you promulgate

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myths or at least unproven claims, you give the people

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on the other side of the aisle this unfortunate opportunity

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to say that's not true. And because it's not true,

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it's a stand in for all the other stuff that

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you're saying. You are a peddler of myths and all

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your politics are based on lies, which is not true.

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So I think that while I have been wildly amused

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as well by the memes, and while I agree entirely

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with Steve that the fact that they exist does tell

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you something that people are frustrated, I think it was

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a mistake for the candidate Donald Trump to say that

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on stage, because now every headline has been Trump promulgated

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a falsehood, and of course that the un lying message

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that he's conveying here is correct, and it's one that

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is shared by close to a supermajority in the United States.

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I mean, we talked about this last week. We now

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have this is astonishing given where we were in twenty fifteen,

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A majority of Americans sixty percent, who want mass deportations.

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That is how fed up they are with the Biden

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Harris administration's abdication of responsibility. So I would not, if

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I were Donald Trump, have given them any opening whatsoever.

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I would have listed things that are far, far worse

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than eating cats and dogs, like children being murdered by

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people who haven't been vetted, like social services being overrun.

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And the bottom line of it is three million people

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violating the laws that our Congress passed. I think it

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was a mistake, much as I do agree that it

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does tell us something about latent feelings toward the border.

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Speaker 1: I agree with you.

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Speaker 5: The thing is is that if Trump, I believe he

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had enumerated all of those things in a precise, logical

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and empirical manner, then the conversation would have shifted to

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a it's not a problem and be its xenophobic, because

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we know that there's actually no legitimate reason for these

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people to believe. Yes, it all comes from a deep

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place of xenophobia. I don't think that if Trump had

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put it better, we'd be having the conversation. I think

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that Trump saying something like that would automatically delegitimize it,

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even though we want to have that conversation.

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Speaker 7: I don't agree.

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Speaker 1: I don't agree.

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Speaker 3: I think that if you say that people who are

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angry about illegal immigration and xenophobes, then they say, fine,

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I'm a xenophobe. I mean, if I could say something

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moderately Boordy here, I have been told not personally, but

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as part of the political movement to which I belong,

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that if I, as a straight man, I'm not willing

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to have sex with a trans person, i'm transphobic. Could

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you know what my response to that is, James, Then

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I'm transphobic.

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Speaker 7: Yes, I'm not going to go do it.

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Speaker 3: You're not going to bully me into doing something that

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I don't want to do. And I think I think

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the same is true increasingly of immigration. Is they say, well,

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look at all these racists who are upset about illegal immigration,

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and those people say, well, if that makes me a racist,

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then I'm a racist. The problem with this is that

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no one wants to say I'm a liar, and so

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Trump has shifted the ground from something which is quite useful,

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which is actually, no, I'm not to Okay, that isn't true, Butt,

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and I just I just think it was a mistake

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for him to say it.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, part of the problem, I will give you all.

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Let's Ephen get into your sing. I just want to

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say I was talking with somebody who's a little bit

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liberal on these issues about the wisdom of importing large

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amounts of people from a drastically different culture into the

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middle of America, and the response was about, Haiti, Well,

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they just had an earthquake, which is to say that

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because disaster had struck this country, therefore the sensible and

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humane thing was, of course to gather.

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Speaker 1: Them up and drop them in the middle of the country.

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Speaker 5: That it would be cruel not to do so. And

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there's no getting around that. I don't think Steven, you're

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gonna say.

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Speaker 1: Well, I was.

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Speaker 2: I think we're pretty much in agreement here. But then

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there's a couple of fault lines that are interesting. First

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of all, just for the record, Charles, although I don't

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think any of to tell you this, I'm very anti postmodern.

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I just used that illustration because, okay, but I think

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I'm a little closer to shames on this for this reason.

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And then I think can draw out to a general

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evaluation of the debate.

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Speaker 1: It's look, let me put it this way.

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Speaker 2: If Trump were the candidate who mastered facts and figures

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and weaved in better arguments and did things more conventionally,

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he wouldn't be Donald Trump. He'd be Ronda Santis and

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much if I might prefer Ron de Santa, says the candidate,

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and for his ability to debate and make policy walk

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arguments that we think are strong. I'm not sure that

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you know, even if the cats and dogs be eaten

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is completely ridiculous, which it probably is. I think it

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reaches people who say, I don't know if it's true

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or not, but there's something really badly wrong, and that

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makes the point more powerfully then a list.

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Speaker 1: Of facts and figures.

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Speaker 2: Although you're right, I think you should use the real

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cases of people who are killed who shouldn't have been

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and all the other things. He could do that, but

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he's Donald Trump. He's not ever gonna do it. I

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keep I get frustrated with all the articles I see

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every day saying Trump must do this. He's not gonna

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do anything we suggest, Right, He's Trump, That's just the

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way he is. And I think, as we said of

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Ronald Reagan. We just have to let Trump be Trump,

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and he's gonna win or loses Donald Trump.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, just loses. Donald Trump. Is one of the problems that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah says, Yeah, I don't understood.

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Speaker 5: Just don't do the thing for the next debate, and

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there won't be one where you do the drinking right

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because the drinking game where every time Trump says this,

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you take a shotter every time here it says this,

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you take a shot, you end up actually corecked the

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next day, unless unless, unless.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you don't want to do drinking games at all. Huh,

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but let's say you do.

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Speaker 5: How can you make sure that you feel fresh after

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Speaker 1: It was invented by.

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Speaker 5: PhD scientists to tackle those rough mornings after drinking. Here's

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wonder what was actually like, and I tried.

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Speaker 1: It a long time ago. It's why I happily do

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these spots.

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Speaker 5: I believe the hype and with their GMO technology, they

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we thank zebiotics for sponsoring this The Ricochet Podcast. Joel

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James Lollx. Here in Minneapolis, I live in a dense city.

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My neighborhood is not It was laid out as a suburb.

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At the end of the previous the beginning of the

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previous century. It's a very walkable neighborhood. You might even

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call it a fifteen minute city. And I have pushedback

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sometimes with a lot of my friends who are who

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are very concerned about the idea, and I understand why.

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Speaker 1: But a I like the idea of a fifteen.

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Speaker 5: Minute city where everything that I can find is walkable

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and it's nice, and it's got trees and coffee shops

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and cafes.

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Speaker 1: But it really does stand in for something else.

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Speaker 5: In the minds of the people who are pushing this

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as a future model, doesn't it. There's a lot more

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control and observation there walk us through because this is

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one of the new urban models that the urbanists are

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telling us about. Tell us about the perils and pitfalls

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and perhaps advantages of the dreaded fifteen minute city.

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Speaker 8: Well, there's nothing wrong with the idea of per se

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and actually there's some relevance in the sense there's more

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people working at home. It's a fifteen minute city because

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you don't have to commute at all. I mean, in

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many of the neighborhoods I've lived in in particularly when

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I lived in Hollywood for many years, almost everybody worked

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at home the same thing. Where I live in Orange County.

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I think there's one person on the cul de Sac

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who actually commutes. So I do live in a fifteen

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minute city. The university is an eight minute drive, a

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twenty minute bike ride. I mean, there are lots of

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ways of doing it. I think what the problem is

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that the people who are pushing it are the same

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people who push density above everything, want to go into

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single family neighborhoods which actually might be reasonably walkable, and

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impose a model which the vast majority of people don't want.

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I mean, if you take a look at the at

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the data, people are moving from high density to low

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density by enormous amounts. That's been the case basically for

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the better part of at least fifty years, but it's

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accelerated in the last five. So the question is what

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comes with it? And the question we also have to

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ask ourselves is these are the same people who told us, well,

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if we build transit in Los Angeles, so we spent

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the hunting on it, you know, everybody would be commuting around.

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And of course, you know there are now fewer people

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writing transit in LA than there was in nineteen eighty

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so you know, so I think the it's really the

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agenda of the fifteen minute city. Let's face it, the

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new urban iss have gotten, you know, a bitter blow

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with the growth of online work. The whole thesis is

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how do you get into the downtown or the central district.

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But now the central district is much less important than

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it was five years ago, and infinitely important than it

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was twenty years ago.

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Speaker 5: There are two elements of this fifty minute city that

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I think give people the hebes and or the jeebs.

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One of them is the density thing that you met

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that you mentioned along transit corridors, long busy streets. It

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makes absolute perfect sense to build apartment buildings. They're already dense,

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and the energy that you get from these corridors, you know,

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compounds and you have interesting places. But when you say

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it is necessary to put a four place into a

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residential neighborhood, what you're saying is we don't like this

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paradigm of individuality that the single family home represents. All

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of the hatred that they bring to sprawl, they bring

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to your neighborhood and say you can't have that, you

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shouldn't have it. It's two resources and intense, it's not

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communal enough.

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Speaker 1: We don't like it.

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Speaker 5: So part of the fifteen minute city is to break

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up the individual homes. And the second part is, well,

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if you don't need to be outside of your fifteen

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minute city, you shouldn't be.

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Speaker 1: Therefore congestion pricing. Therefore little cameras that will charge you

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if you actually leave during certain amounts of hours.

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Speaker 5: That's the sort of status, top down control that a

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lot of people say no, no, thank you.

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Speaker 8: Right well, and that's that's precisely what they want. I mean,

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and I've seen it because I spend a lot of

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time in other countries. If you go, for instance, in Sydney,

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neighborhoods that were beautiful, single family neighborhoods, easily accessible into

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the downtown, walkable, they now they now build, you know,

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for you know, four story apartment complexes, completely destroys the

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nature of the neighborhood. Terrible for the bird life and

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and and the other animals that live in these areas.

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It's terrible for the climate because concrete actually makes things hotter.

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There's something that has been essentially air brushed out of

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the climate debate, which is the heat Island, which many

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people my particularly my colleague Ali Maderis, has worked on,

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which is basically you end up with much hotter conditions

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because it's all concrete. Somehow, I don't understand where where

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green goes with concrete from one end to the other.

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Speaker 4: No.

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Speaker 8: The other thing that's absurd is this idea that you

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have to go break down the last middle class and

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working class stable neighborhoods and cities. When we have empty

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office buildings and empty shopping malls and empty factories which

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could be converted. And as you mentioned earlier, you've got

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the transit corridor, you have the roads, you have the electricity.

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Why would you have to go into people's neighborhood? And

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I agree there is a certainly a element in the

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new urban is thinking, which is basically, you know, we

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don't like this way of life, you know. And of course,

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very often these are people who are quite wealthy. They

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may live, let's say in Manhattan or in an apartment

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of San Francisco, and they almost always have country houses

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or at least one extra house. I mean, I love

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getting you know. I've gotten lectures on proper lifestyle from

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British aristocrats and I asked them, well, how do you live,

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and you know it's it's it's basically an attack on

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sort of middle class home ownership. Now I'm not necessarily

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a conservative per se, but I'm more in the sense

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of it being a, if you will, a kind of

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social democrat. I think the more people are able to

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buy a house and have an asset and be independent,

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that's what I think a good social democratic regime would

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want to do. But I would go back to Truman

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in some ways in this area, this idea that we're

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going to move into a society where everybody's a renter

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for life. We even rent our furniture. It's it's this

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weird sort of symbiosis, if you will, between the investment

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class at Wall Street basically and and the green urbanists.

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They actually have a very common agenda, which is basically,

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screw the middle class.

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Speaker 2: So, Joel, it's Steve Hayward over in Europe this week, actually,

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and you know, it strikes me, to build on what

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you've just said, it strikes me that one of the

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sleeper issues in this campaign that neither campaign is talking

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about is high housing costs and rent. It's being swept

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up in an inflation story, which is fine, but I

431
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have a synoptic or potted history.

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Speaker 1: I can state briefly, and I want to see what

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you make of it.

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Speaker 2: I think, as you know, and you lived in LA

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for a long time, I always like to say that

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the sort of no growth or growth control or highly

437
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:33,200
regulatory framemank for housing began on the coasts fifty years ago,

438
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start in California, starting the East coast, and it has

439
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over the decades spread inland and now infects Indianapolis, Saint Louis, everywhere.

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Speaker 1: And there's some empirical data for this.

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Speaker 2: I think about the increasing costs of the regulatory process

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to build housing, and I think that's a huge driver.

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Speaker 1: Of the housing costs problem in the country. Am I

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generally right about that?

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Speaker 2: Or what would you add or modify if I don't

446
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have the story quite in focus?

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Speaker 8: Well, As my colleague Wendel Cox says, the housing crisis

448
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is not universal in the United States. I mean, yes,

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you have you know, some of these same regulations to

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some extent being enforced. But you know, housing prices in

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the if you want to live in the outer rings

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of Houston are still very very reasonable. Much of the

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Midwest is still relatively affordable where it's really hit hard

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is in the northeast and on the west coast, and

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in those areas everything from there are some cases where

456
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just the fees alone could be two hundred and fifty

457
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thousand dollars. If you talk to anybody in the in

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the development business, the amount of time that you spend,

459
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you know, going through the regulatory process, it's that all

460
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gets baked into the housing. Of course, the problem we

461
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have with this election, because I do think it's an

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important issue and I'm actually about to write an article

463
00:24:01,519 --> 00:24:06,440
about it, the real problem is is that that you've

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got one candidate, Kamala Harris. For her to talk about

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housing affordability is such a joke, given the fact that

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as Attorney General in California, she enforced laws that made

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it very difficult to develop a suburban housing she uh,

468
00:24:22,759 --> 00:24:24,559
you know, talk to anybody who is an official in

469
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Sam Bernardino, the whole bunch of other places. So the

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idea that California, which has about the lowest affordability, lowest

471
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home ownership, highest prices, that's the model. Give me a break.

472
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The problem that the the Republicans have is that their

473
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candidate is basically either an ignoramus or or losing his

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marbles because right, he has no he has no way

475
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,160
of He should be able to talk about these things,

476
00:24:58,240 --> 00:24:59,880
but he doesn't know how to put together a co

477
00:25:00,079 --> 00:25:04,440
here in sentence, you know, I mean it's it's just

478
00:25:04,839 --> 00:25:07,359
one person is a complete phony and the other one

479
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:08,680
is in articulate.

480
00:25:09,279 --> 00:25:09,519
Speaker 1: Yeah.

481
00:25:09,559 --> 00:25:11,640
Speaker 2: Well, I mean I remembered Trump from years ago wanting

482
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:13,839
to use the power of eminent domain to you know,

483
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,000
kick out old ladies out of their houses in Atlantic

484
00:25:16,039 --> 00:25:16,720
City and so forth.

485
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:18,119
Speaker 1: And he lost me there back then.

486
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,680
Speaker 2: But a second question, and then I'll kick it over

487
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:22,400
to Charles Cook to see if he wants to defend

488
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:27,440
British aristocrats or not from your observation a moment ago. So, Joel,

489
00:25:28,039 --> 00:25:30,440
you know I've known you on and often seen you

490
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,720
many times over the years, and I always describe you

491
00:25:33,759 --> 00:25:38,400
to people as a small py common sense progressive, small

492
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:43,720
p progressive, a common sense progressivism, right, And I took

493
00:25:43,759 --> 00:25:45,880
the heart of criticism. You made this more than twenty

494
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:47,759
years ago at a conference and you may not remember it,

495
00:25:47,759 --> 00:25:50,319
but you were criticizing conservatives like me, and I think

496
00:25:50,519 --> 00:25:52,440
rightly so saying, you know, you go a little too

497
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:56,279
far trying to make an idiology out of progressivism, you

498
00:25:56,279 --> 00:25:58,559
know too much Woodrow, Wilson and Hagel and all this

499
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:00,680
sort of you know, stuff that I do think people

500
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:02,319
take too far. I took that very much to heart,

501
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:04,640
and I think you were right about that. But then

502
00:26:04,839 --> 00:26:06,599
I saw your article here from a month or two go.

503
00:26:06,839 --> 00:26:10,440
What happened to my party? What happened to common sense progressivism?

504
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:14,680
Was it overcome by you know, the ideologically hardcore? Or

505
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:16,359
where do you land? You just said in a moment,

506
00:26:16,519 --> 00:26:18,759
you're still a social democrat, which I think that's a

507
00:26:18,759 --> 00:26:20,440
great thing for us to have.

508
00:26:20,839 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 1: But there don't see me very many of you.

509
00:26:22,599 --> 00:26:27,759
Speaker 8: Left where where we're we're moving towards extinction? I suppose, yeah,

510
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,119
although I think that actually the large part of the

511
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,759
public is there they you know. For instance, one of

512
00:26:34,839 --> 00:26:39,279
my arguments to conservatives is some you know, particularly you know,

513
00:26:39,319 --> 00:26:42,240
some of the libertarians will say, well, the market is efficient,

514
00:26:42,319 --> 00:26:44,720
let's get rid of all zoning. So what they do

515
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,359
is they go along with wiping out single families owning

516
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:53,079
and then don't say anything when when construction on the

517
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:57,880
sub in the suburban periphery is blocked. And I always

518
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:02,200
ask conservatives what kind of conservatism is going to survive

519
00:27:02,519 --> 00:27:05,480
if the if we become a country where only twenty

520
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,480
five percent of the people own their own home, you

521
00:27:08,599 --> 00:27:12,319
have no chance. Everything will be Ultimately, of course, the

522
00:27:13,079 --> 00:27:15,920
ultimate thing will be people will be renters. They're going

523
00:27:16,039 --> 00:27:18,599
to want rent control. And why not if I can

524
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,119
never This is what I would say to younger people.

525
00:27:21,279 --> 00:27:23,559
If I have no chance of owning a home, no

526
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,759
chance of starting a business, no chance of really ever

527
00:27:26,839 --> 00:27:30,359
being independent, I'm going to vote for Bernie Sanders.

528
00:27:30,519 --> 00:27:32,400
Speaker 1: Why not? Yeah?

529
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 3: Can I ask, yeah, I won't be defending British aristocrats.

530
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,720
I have jud British aristocracy when I became a citizen

531
00:27:39,759 --> 00:27:44,559
in twenty eighteen, can ask a very basic, from the

532
00:27:44,599 --> 00:27:46,279
ground up question here.

533
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 7: I'm originally from England.

534
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 3: As you can presumably here, and in England, in Britain,

535
00:27:52,519 --> 00:27:55,160
i think about nine percent of the land is built on.

536
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:58,359
Speaker 7: And in america's two right.

537
00:27:58,559 --> 00:28:01,319
Speaker 8: Right, In Australia is even yeah, right.

538
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:06,039
Speaker 3: So when I'm here in the United States, as I

539
00:28:06,079 --> 00:28:09,400
have been for the last thirteen years, space doesn't really

540
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,400
figure in my imagination because it's almost a limitless.

541
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:13,559
Speaker 7: Amount of it.

542
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,440
Speaker 3: Everything you've described, and I know you've written a bunch

543
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:21,359
of US at National Review, where I write it is fascinating.

544
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:23,240
But what I can never understand, perhaps you can explain

545
00:28:23,279 --> 00:28:26,799
to me, is why why are there people who are

546
00:28:26,839 --> 00:28:29,880
desperate to stop building on.

547
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 7: Land to avoid sprawl?

548
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:34,079
Speaker 1: Why?

549
00:28:34,519 --> 00:28:37,799
Speaker 7: It's just what does it come from? What's the origin

550
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:39,119
of that there's so much space?

551
00:28:39,559 --> 00:28:43,119
Speaker 8: Well, first of all, the origins of the argument against

552
00:28:43,119 --> 00:28:47,119
it really started in the UK. The UK is really

553
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:55,839
the found of idiotic planning ideas, although elegantly presented, but

554
00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:01,240
the reality is the first it started off, it was

555
00:29:01,319 --> 00:29:03,480
kind of an aesthetic thing. If you read let's say

556
00:29:03,559 --> 00:29:07,880
Mumford for instance, or Caro, A lot of it is

557
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:13,359
clearly like these cookie cutter houses with you know, with

558
00:29:13,359 --> 00:29:16,519
with young families with tricycles in front. They just were

559
00:29:16,599 --> 00:29:20,480
offensive to the intelligentsia. I mean that sort of where

560
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:24,400
it started. Then as the environmental movement got started, they

561
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,079
started saying, well, those people, you know, they drive more,

562
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:32,279
they eat up more energy, you know, they're gobbling up

563
00:29:32,319 --> 00:29:35,200
the farmland. Now, obviously, the United States, as you suggest,

564
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,160
has no shortage of farmland. Actually we retire much more

565
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:43,799
farmland from being redundant than we do taking it over

566
00:29:43,839 --> 00:29:47,039
to build houses. So but but you know, logic doesn't matter.

567
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,240
And then the other thing is that you have a

568
00:29:50,279 --> 00:29:53,839
lot of people who have decided that the way to

569
00:29:54,359 --> 00:29:57,920
save the planet is to force everybody to live like crap.

570
00:29:58,799 --> 00:30:02,079
I mean that's you know, because you know, people say, oh, well,

571
00:30:02,119 --> 00:30:03,079
you could live in the city.

572
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 1: Yeah.

573
00:30:03,799 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 8: You know what if I could go to New York

574
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,799
City and buy one of those you know, four bedroom

575
00:30:09,839 --> 00:30:13,440
apartments on Central Park West or in Vienna in the Ringstrasa,

576
00:30:14,359 --> 00:30:17,119
I'd be okay with living in an urban area, but

577
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,480
I couldn't afford it. And I have a nice house

578
00:30:19,559 --> 00:30:22,920
in a very expensive area, and if I did that

579
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,480
and converted it into anything in New York City, I'd

580
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,519
be lucky to get one bedroom. So you know, the

581
00:30:28,519 --> 00:30:32,279
reality is they don't understand that there's a class element,

582
00:30:32,319 --> 00:30:36,200
which is people who are not super rich cannot afford

583
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:40,720
to live decently in urban areas. The other issue, which

584
00:30:40,799 --> 00:30:43,920
of course is affects this is even if you live

585
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,680
in a nice neighborhood in the city, as I did

586
00:30:46,839 --> 00:30:49,799
Los Angeles, you can't send your kids to public school,

587
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,759
so you end up having to pay not only high

588
00:30:53,799 --> 00:30:56,599
taxes and all every kind of fee that you could

589
00:30:56,599 --> 00:31:00,720
possibly have and with the threat of densification. But you're

590
00:31:00,799 --> 00:31:05,440
also in a situation where you know, you're basically forced

591
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,240
to pay forty fifty thousand dollars a year to educate

592
00:31:08,279 --> 00:31:11,920
your kids. By the way, the reason why I'm talking

593
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,319
to you not from my long term home in Los Angeles,

594
00:31:15,359 --> 00:31:17,640
where I lived for forty years, but in Orange County

595
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,640
because when my youngest daughter was going at the sixth grade,

596
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:23,240
we took a look and we said, you know what,

597
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:25,559
if we moved to Orange County, she can still go

598
00:31:25,599 --> 00:31:28,920
to public school. And she did and it worked out great.

599
00:31:29,319 --> 00:31:33,599
It saved us about well somewhere around three hundred thousand dollars.

600
00:31:34,519 --> 00:31:36,440
Most people can't afford this, so that one of the

601
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,079
reasons that people moved to the suburbs. It's not just

602
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,279
because they want more space, which is part of it,

603
00:31:42,359 --> 00:31:44,039
is they want to be in the place where they

604
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,960
could afford to live and send their kids to decent schools.

605
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:52,319
You know, I if I moved from Los Angeles to Dallas,

606
00:31:52,599 --> 00:31:55,799
I could live in the district with great schools. I

607
00:31:55,839 --> 00:31:59,799
couldn't do that in LA Once you went into places

608
00:31:59,799 --> 00:32:05,720
like which I have good schools, the price is double. Yeah,

609
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,799
the same thing with Calabasas outside of you know, I

610
00:32:08,839 --> 00:32:13,440
mean basically, the urban America has a reverse Midas touch,

611
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:18,480
and it drives middle class people out, particularly if they

612
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,559
want to buy something, and particularly if they're married, and

613
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:24,240
even more so if they have children.

614
00:32:24,519 --> 00:32:29,119
Speaker 3: My second question is your criticism of Donald Trump was

615
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:35,720
effectively that he's ineloquent, which is of course, But suppose

616
00:32:35,799 --> 00:32:38,799
that I managed to put a chip into his brain

617
00:32:39,039 --> 00:32:44,880
and he suddenly became Demosthenes. Would he have the right ideas?

618
00:32:45,119 --> 00:32:48,079
And is the problem with the Republican Party that it

619
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,960
is headed up by somebody who can't convey or doesn't

620
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,119
think about this, or is it as well wrong?

621
00:32:56,559 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 8: I would say this, and you know, I was talking

622
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,680
to my wife about it the other day. On almost

623
00:33:02,759 --> 00:33:07,920
every issue but abortion, the Republicans are ahead. Even if

624
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,319
you take a look in California, if you take a

625
00:33:10,319 --> 00:33:13,319
look at the positions that are taken by Republicans, they

626
00:33:13,359 --> 00:33:17,240
actually are fairly popular. Even in the place like California,

627
00:33:17,279 --> 00:33:21,559
particularly in the suburban areas. They seem to sometimes have

628
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,960
a problem articulating this. Now, part of it is there

629
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:29,119
is a wing of the Republican Party that's libertarian, you know,

630
00:33:29,319 --> 00:33:34,519
uber Alis and you know, they they would never even

631
00:33:34,599 --> 00:33:38,279
engage this kind of issue. And actually, I mean I've

632
00:33:38,319 --> 00:33:45,079
had let's say, very fierce arguments with you know, libertarians

633
00:33:45,079 --> 00:33:47,160
on this issue. Even though I'm sympathetic to a lot

634
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:51,799
of libertarian positions. I think that the problem is the

635
00:33:51,799 --> 00:33:55,039
Republican Party doesn't know how to how to make its case.

636
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:59,319
I mean, but on issues like crime, issues like the border,

637
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:05,119
they're they're clearly energy, they're clearly ahead of the game.

638
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,840
The problem is they don't really know how to talk

639
00:34:09,119 --> 00:34:11,119
to regular people. And then of course part of the

640
00:34:11,119 --> 00:34:14,719
problem is also this this problem with the primaries where

641
00:34:15,119 --> 00:34:19,000
you know, the you know, the most unreconstructed twenty five

642
00:34:19,119 --> 00:34:23,360
thirty percent of the population is going to vote for

643
00:34:23,599 --> 00:34:26,920
Trump even though most people don't want them. So what

644
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:29,320
we end up with, and I'm already starting to work

645
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:32,000
on what is it going to be, you know, living

646
00:34:32,079 --> 00:34:35,119
on the Kamala Harrison of course, being a long time

647
00:34:35,159 --> 00:34:36,840
California and I think I have an idea of what

648
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:37,639
it's going to look like.

649
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 5: Joe, you had said before something was exactly correct, that

650
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,039
the objection to sprawl in the suburbs began as sort

651
00:34:45,039 --> 00:34:48,440
of a culturally aesthetic revulsion, and then onto it was

652
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,800
grafted environmentalism and other things, and it was fueled by

653
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,519
the ungrateful baby boomers who grew up in Levittown and

654
00:34:55,679 --> 00:34:58,039
thought that it was just full of ticky TACKI boxes

655
00:34:58,079 --> 00:35:00,719
and romanticized all the cold water walk up Flos, New York.

656
00:35:01,159 --> 00:35:03,159
As soon as we're done with that generation, which is mine,

657
00:35:03,679 --> 00:35:07,719
the better, But in a sense, some of what the

658
00:35:08,519 --> 00:35:14,000
new urbanists want is correct. It made me realize that

659
00:35:14,079 --> 00:35:17,920
perhaps the last urbanist movement of which I approved was

660
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:19,920
the city Beautiful movement that came out of the eighteen

661
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:24,360
ninety three Columbia acquisition, and that itself was just trying

662
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,840
to graft onto America the houseman Parisian, you know, the

663
00:35:28,519 --> 00:35:30,960
leveling of old Paris and the reconstituting it into the

664
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,599
houseman's vision, which again I like, but I don't think

665
00:35:33,639 --> 00:35:36,119
they've gotten anything right. Since I think Moses was wrong.

666
00:35:36,599 --> 00:35:40,760
I think that the people who wanted to tear down

667
00:35:41,039 --> 00:35:43,360
blight in the sixties made the mistake of going too

668
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:45,719
far instead of rehabilitating places, and we ended up with

669
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,960
these empty plausas and these wind swept places that nobody likes.

670
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:51,360
And now we have new urbanism, which has elements of

671
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:55,480
it again that I like, but also elements that seem

672
00:35:55,519 --> 00:35:57,880
a little too controlling, a little too vengeful and petty,

673
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,440
and the rest of it was the last what was

674
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:05,400
the last new urban urban movement that actually you think

675
00:36:06,639 --> 00:36:08,119
is the one that we should be looking to, that

676
00:36:08,199 --> 00:36:10,960
has the best ideas for everybody, Because you quote Frank

677
00:36:11,039 --> 00:36:12,960
Lloyd to writing your book that people are going to

678
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:14,960
go where I'm paraphrasing, people are going to go.

679
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:16,599
Speaker 1: The city goes where the people go.

680
00:36:17,199 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 5: And one of the things that people hate about the

681
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,440
suburbs is that they seem to be an expression of

682
00:36:21,519 --> 00:36:22,519
individual desire.

683
00:36:22,599 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 1: People left the city after the Wars, not because all

684
00:36:25,039 --> 00:36:26,599
of a sudden, Oh there's a highway in a car,

685
00:36:26,639 --> 00:36:28,320
I have to move. No, they wanted to go there.

686
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:29,280
It was a better place to go.

687
00:36:29,519 --> 00:36:33,800
Speaker 8: I can my own family. My mother grew up in Brownsville,

688
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:38,119
which hopefully I won't offend your audience by this as

689
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:40,599
but I have to quote her accurately. It was a

690
00:36:40,639 --> 00:36:44,760
shitty neighborhood then in the shitty neighborhood now. When she

691
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:47,679
got a chance to move to Long Island and have

692
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:50,199
a little backyard and be in the place where she

693
00:36:50,199 --> 00:36:53,039
didn't worry about crime, and where the public schools were good.

694
00:36:53,639 --> 00:36:56,119
She went nobody took a gun to her head.

695
00:36:56,559 --> 00:36:59,559
Speaker 5: No, no, So I guess I'm not asking a question

696
00:36:59,599 --> 00:37:01,599
so much as giving a speech and a sermon myself.

697
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:06,360
But yes, I mean, so shouldn't we Perhaps we should

698
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:08,760
pick and choose from all of these various strains of

699
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:11,280
urban thought that have gone through the culture in the

700
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:13,519
last hundred years or so. There is something to be

701
00:37:13,559 --> 00:37:16,159
said for beautiful dens cities, There is something to be

702
00:37:16,159 --> 00:37:18,239
said for preservation. There is something to be said for

703
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,400
building something new that contrasts and compares and the rest

704
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:25,320
of it. But it just seems as if has it

705
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:27,960
ever been non ideological? I'll ask you that urban design,

706
00:37:28,119 --> 00:37:30,800
urban theory in the last hundred years, has it always been.

707
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:33,199
Speaker 8: Well, there's been an element of it. But you know

708
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,719
what's really interesting is there are some very good models.

709
00:37:38,039 --> 00:37:40,920
You know, my friend Aaron Wren wrote a piece about

710
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:45,960
where he lives now in Carmel, Indiana. Republican administration in

711
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:51,559
some senses, some new urbanist ideas, but still single family

712
00:37:51,639 --> 00:37:55,320
homes that's doing well. You want to see some of

713
00:37:55,400 --> 00:38:01,400
the most amazing evolutions, I'll give you two very different cases.

714
00:38:01,559 --> 00:38:07,039
One what I see in eparticularly outside of Houston, because

715
00:38:07,039 --> 00:38:12,079
I've spent so much time there. These new towns Woodlands,

716
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,119
Sinco Ranch that they have. You know, the case of

717
00:38:16,119 --> 00:38:18,639
the Woodlands, they have a nice downtown, there are lots

718
00:38:18,639 --> 00:38:22,920
of jobs there. They have you know, they have water

719
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,039
features going all through. You could take a boat around.

720
00:38:26,159 --> 00:38:29,559
There's great bike paths. In a lot of ways. They've

721
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:34,960
achieved the good part of the new urbaness regime for

722
00:38:35,079 --> 00:38:37,440
reasons of they know that people like it, and they

723
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,679
make money if they provide what people want. So that's one.

724
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,039
The other alternative, which is what I'm working on right now.

725
00:38:44,639 --> 00:38:48,000
One of the projects I'm on is some of the

726
00:38:48,039 --> 00:38:51,360
old cities in Los Angeles we call the Southeast LA.

727
00:38:52,119 --> 00:38:52,800
Speaker 1: Places that you've.

728
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:56,679
Speaker 8: Probably never heard of, like down E, Paramount, Well Lakewood

729
00:38:56,679 --> 00:39:00,639
you've heard of. I was just there with a friend

730
00:39:00,639 --> 00:39:03,400
who is a former head of the computer science department

731
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:06,320
at Chapman, and he said, it looks better than it

732
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,079
ever did. So you go into these small towns which

733
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:12,480
tend to have their own school districts, their own police forces.

734
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:17,559
These towns are ninety percent Hispanic. We went there, no vacancies,

735
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:23,679
no graffiti, no homeless people. You realize that you know

736
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,639
a local area can do it too. I think a

737
00:39:26,679 --> 00:39:29,440
lot of the problems is a we have to get

738
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,880
away from the idea that once one size fits all,

739
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:36,679
people have different things. The other thing is the more

740
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:39,719
you have is a town where the people have a

741
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:43,039
stake in it, and that's what's happening in places like

742
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:46,079
parts of south of East LA, whereas in the city

743
00:39:46,079 --> 00:39:48,480
of Los Angeles you can't affect anything. I lived in

744
00:39:48,599 --> 00:39:51,519
LA when we ever had a problem, you couldn't get

745
00:39:51,559 --> 00:39:54,400
the city to do anything because you know, I didn't

746
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:56,880
have I wasn't a source of campaign contributions, and I

747
00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:00,960
didn't work for a government union. So you know nothing

748
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:02,639
that we said in our neighborhood matter.

749
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:05,760
Speaker 1: Well, Joe, I've got the build on that.

750
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:08,719
Speaker 2: I've got one last California question because I haven't been

751
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:10,639
to Lakewood and Downey. I know those places are, but

752
00:40:10,679 --> 00:40:13,639
I haven't been in a long time. It's your adopt

753
00:40:13,639 --> 00:40:15,960
at home state. I know you moved from Brooklyn decades ago,

754
00:40:16,079 --> 00:40:19,599
and I'm a native Californian and every time I see

755
00:40:19,599 --> 00:40:21,880
a story like the one two weeks ago that Chevron

756
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:25,360
a company that grew in California in the eighth nineteenth

757
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:29,559
century is leaving entirely for Houston, following how many companies

758
00:40:29,639 --> 00:40:31,639
are now major companies that have left the state. And

759
00:40:31,679 --> 00:40:35,400
as you know, we are one tech procession away from

760
00:40:35,639 --> 00:40:38,280
California's fiscal situation going off a.

761
00:40:38,199 --> 00:40:40,360
Speaker 1: Cliff that will so deep it'll never come back.

762
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:43,159
Speaker 2: I keep thinking, never mind, Republicans, we can meet in

763
00:40:43,159 --> 00:40:45,719
a phone booth now in California. I keep thinking that

764
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:49,719
at some point, isn't this going to wake up Democrats?

765
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:52,480
Isn't Gavin Newsome going to is the privately? Doesn't he

766
00:40:52,559 --> 00:40:55,639
have to be privately saying something's wrong when all these

767
00:40:55,679 --> 00:40:57,199
businesses are leaving the state?

768
00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:59,840
Speaker 1: That might be too optimistic. There is a just hopeless.

769
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:02,880
Speaker 2: So what are we going to say by Lakewood and

770
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:06,559
Hispanic politicians who say enough is enough?

771
00:41:07,119 --> 00:41:10,400
Speaker 8: Well, the report we just did at Chapman called the

772
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:14,639
El Fertudo s Latino. We go into all that stuff,

773
00:41:14,639 --> 00:41:20,000
and basically the only hope for California is Latinos and

774
00:41:20,119 --> 00:41:23,840
Asians beginning to move to the center. If that happens,

775
00:41:24,199 --> 00:41:26,559
then we've got a chance. Because these are people who

776
00:41:26,639 --> 00:41:30,880
want to buy houses. They tend to have kids. They

777
00:41:31,119 --> 00:41:34,679
should be a constituency that the party should fight for.

778
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,159
And one of the things that I've been talking a

779
00:41:37,199 --> 00:41:40,320
lot with Latinos about is you got to you got

780
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:43,320
to make people work for your vote. You know, I mean,

781
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:45,920
what the what what's happened to the African Americans. They've

782
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:51,079
become They've become so predictably Democrats that the Democrats really

783
00:41:51,079 --> 00:41:53,000
don't have to do anything for them. All they got

784
00:41:53,039 --> 00:41:56,719
to do is say a few words and pander a bit. Meanwhile,

785
00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:00,559
the condition of Black America continues to deteriorate, particularly relative

786
00:42:00,599 --> 00:42:04,679
to other groups. So, you know, the the the problem

787
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:10,199
we have in California is that we have a very

788
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,599
powerful group of people. And this is where why I

789
00:42:13,639 --> 00:42:16,840
think Newsom doesn't get it. He lives in this Silicon

790
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:17,559
Valley bubble.

791
00:42:18,039 --> 00:42:18,199
Speaker 5: This.

792
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 8: You know, Gavin Newsom and Kamala Harris are the same person. Essentially,

793
00:42:24,679 --> 00:42:27,599
their backers are the same, their views are the same,

794
00:42:28,079 --> 00:42:30,480
and what they'll do is they will back up when

795
00:42:30,519 --> 00:42:35,320
things get bad. So, for instance, Newsom's been vetoing some

796
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:39,039
of the more absurd laws that are being pushed because

797
00:42:39,079 --> 00:42:41,960
he knows that there's a problem. But what's interesting to

798
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,000
me is when companies leave. And to me, the most

799
00:42:44,039 --> 00:42:48,360
important loss by far is X because Space was I

800
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:53,320
think our ticket in California. Big written a lot about Space,

801
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:58,440
including for a national review. When you lose these companies,

802
00:43:00,119 --> 00:43:03,719
you know, it's it's very, very difficult. But the problem

803
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:06,119
is that you've got this group of companies who don't

804
00:43:06,159 --> 00:43:10,199
manufacture anything, who are what my friend Mike Lincoles told

805
00:43:10,199 --> 00:43:16,320
booth companies you know, like Apple, like Microsoft, you know

806
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,320
where they make money no matter what, they're just being there.

807
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:24,519
They make money. There's no incentive from them, and they're

808
00:43:24,559 --> 00:43:28,679
the big backers of the Democrats. There's no incentive to

809
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:33,000
address the loss of these these jobs. I mean, you know,

810
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:36,880
he made many mistakes, but when Pete Wilson was governor,

811
00:43:38,639 --> 00:43:40,800
I have to give him credit. Every time there was

812
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:42,960
a company that was talking about leaving, they put a

813
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,400
team out there. Sometimes they talked them out of it,

814
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:48,920
sometimes they didn't. Doesn't seem to be any attempt. I

815
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:54,079
was meeting with a bunch of executives at Toyota. They

816
00:43:54,119 --> 00:43:56,199
have a few things left here in southern California. You

817
00:43:56,239 --> 00:44:00,960
talk about a company that should be here, and they said,

818
00:44:01,039 --> 00:44:05,159
you know what, nobody cared we left. I think the

819
00:44:05,159 --> 00:44:08,000
mayor of Florence was upset. I think that's about it.

820
00:44:09,199 --> 00:44:09,400
Speaker 1: Yeah.

821
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:14,519
Speaker 8: Have you heard word one about SpaceX leaving SpaceX, which

822
00:44:14,559 --> 00:44:16,840
I think may be the most important company in the

823
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:22,519
country in the long term. Not a word, not a word.

824
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:27,039
Speaker 5: Well, that's another podcast and we'll have that too, because

825
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:33,000
California matters, and it absolutely is a lesson, once a

826
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:36,480
shining beacon of hope and opportunity and orange juice and

827
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:38,880
all the rest of it's and now a dire lesson.

828
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:41,760
Joel Cotkin, the author of The Human City, Urbanism for

829
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:44,400
the Rest of Us and Becoming of Neo Feudalism Awarding

830
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:45,800
for the Global middle Class.

831
00:44:46,159 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 1: Thanks for coming on.

832
00:44:47,079 --> 00:44:49,400
Speaker 5: I could have talked about urbanism for another hour or so,

833
00:44:49,519 --> 00:44:53,039
but got to run and have a great weekend you.

834
00:44:53,079 --> 00:44:57,599
Speaker 8: Too, and look forward to seeing the podcast, and feel

835
00:44:57,599 --> 00:45:00,280
free to contact me in the future. I do have

836
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:03,719
a piece, by the way, coming out that Andrew Stutterford

837
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:08,440
is editing on immigration, which might be of some issul.

838
00:45:08,199 --> 00:45:10,079
Speaker 1: Well, there we go. Look for that in National Review,

839
00:45:10,079 --> 00:45:10,920
I assume.

840
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:11,760
Speaker 8: In National Review.

841
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:16,800
Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, good, all right, Joe, thank you, thank you.

842
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:20,079
You know, talking about California and what it used to represent.

843
00:45:20,119 --> 00:45:24,000
I can't think of a style, a mood, a vibe

844
00:45:24,039 --> 00:45:25,760
that's come out of California in a long time. What

845
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:29,360
most people think of is a long dead, fifty sixty

846
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:33,639
seven year old paradigm of Googi architecture, of Neon, of

847
00:45:33,679 --> 00:45:35,920
all the car culture things that sort of erupted in

848
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:37,719
the mid century. That's what people think of when they

849
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:42,880
think of California. California urban culture not anymore. The other alternative,

850
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:47,239
of course, is to go to We mentioned Frankloyd right before.

851
00:45:47,559 --> 00:45:49,480
I'm working on a piece now for the newspaper where

852
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:52,880
I have been reduced to being the urbanist writer there.

853
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:56,639
Frankloyd Wright did a gas station in a small town

854
00:45:56,639 --> 00:45:59,960
of Minnesota in nineteen fifty seven, you don't know how

855
00:46:00,119 --> 00:46:02,960
for the guy who you know, had some gas stations

856
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:04,320
and he said, hey, you know what, why don't you

857
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:06,880
build me a station? And Frank Lloyd Wright usted up

858
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:09,519
some plans from nineteen twenty seven for a broad acre

859
00:46:09,559 --> 00:46:12,559
city and put in this city, this little small town,

860
00:46:12,639 --> 00:46:15,719
this absurd futuristic building that was already thirty years old

861
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:17,320
when he put it up, and was pointing to a

862
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:20,039
future that never actually happened. And when people look at

863
00:46:20,079 --> 00:46:23,280
it and say, why didn't we build more things like that? Well,

864
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:26,960
because it was weird. It's a weird looking thing. It

865
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:30,639
doesn't fit. People weren't crazy about it. It's a novelty.

866
00:46:31,079 --> 00:46:32,880
Speaker 1: It's not a way we wanted to go.

867
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:35,119
Speaker 5: And as much as I love some of the particulars

868
00:46:35,119 --> 00:46:38,239
of Frank Lloyd Wright's architecture, building an entire city run

869
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:42,079
those ideas and styles I think was bad. And that's

870
00:46:42,079 --> 00:46:43,559
one of the objections I have to all of these

871
00:46:43,599 --> 00:46:46,800
new Orbinist ideas is they tend to impose a paradigm

872
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:51,000
as opposed to letting things grow organically and jostle for competition.

873
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 1: That's all I have to say about that. Well, I'll

874
00:46:57,039 --> 00:46:58,920
just say here here. I mean, you know, I thought

875
00:46:59,199 --> 00:47:00,639
I think maybe you said James Is.

876
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:03,320
Speaker 2: The new urbanists had a lot of good ideas, but

877
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:06,599
they wanted to impose it on everyone by fiat right.

878
00:47:06,679 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 1: I used to say, look, if you want a fifteen.

879
00:47:08,599 --> 00:47:12,119
Speaker 2: Minute city, you want new urbanism or whatever, just allow

880
00:47:12,119 --> 00:47:12,679
it to happen.

881
00:47:13,079 --> 00:47:14,039
Speaker 1: Let's scale back.

882
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:17,280
Speaker 2: The zoning regulations that prohibit these kinds of forms of

883
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:20,360
neighborhoods and cities from being built and let a thousand

884
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:22,920
flowers bloom. But that's not good enough for Really, this

885
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:25,360
is another species of utopianism. I think you know, you

886
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:28,719
mentioned transit and so forth, and you and I could go.

887
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:32,280
Speaker 1: On all day about this, James and tear his hair out.

888
00:47:32,559 --> 00:47:35,000
Speaker 5: There is an element of utopianism that is underneath all

889
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:36,320
of these urban place It really is.

890
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:38,599
Speaker 1: No matter what you look for for the garden.

891
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:42,639
Speaker 5: City models, for the Robert Moses imposed grids, with with

892
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:49,559
the awful, dreadful concrete pretty you know, the word doesn't

893
00:47:49,679 --> 00:47:51,840
prove igno, that's it. The standing in the middle of

894
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:55,159
wincept empty pauses, all those things have an element of utopianism,

895
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:57,840
utopianism to it, and that's why I say it's managing

896
00:47:57,880 --> 00:47:59,400
to hell with it all? Right, before we go, a

897
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:02,440
couple of things. One meetups coming up Saint Louis October

898
00:48:02,559 --> 00:48:04,960
third through the sixth. That's right, people at Ricochet get

899
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:07,880
together in person and drink and eat and have fun.

900
00:48:08,159 --> 00:48:10,599
And you'd be surprised a little politics they actually talk about.

901
00:48:11,159 --> 00:48:15,679
Panama City, Florida, December sixth through the eighth. I don't

902
00:48:15,679 --> 00:48:18,559
know the geography of but Charlie is Panama City close

903
00:48:18,599 --> 00:48:20,280
to where you happen to be or are you just

904
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:22,559
going to be you know, mister undisclosed location and.

905
00:48:22,599 --> 00:48:25,199
Speaker 7: Leave us No, I live in Jacksonville.

906
00:48:25,639 --> 00:48:29,639
Speaker 3: Oh okay, it's three and a half hours, four hours

907
00:48:29,679 --> 00:48:31,960
away from me, Florida's big state. Not so much a

908
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:34,880
cross although that isn't a cross journey, but down. Yeah,

909
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:38,159
it takes it takes you as long to get from

910
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:42,960
the Keys to Tallahassee as from Tallahassee to Washington, d C.

911
00:48:43,559 --> 00:48:46,639
Speaker 5: I'm not surprised I wouldn't use the keys as you're

912
00:48:46,639 --> 00:48:48,880
starting a ending point, because that does really seem to

913
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:52,079
be tacking it on just a bit, and you could

914
00:48:52,079 --> 00:48:54,159
never get me across that bridge in a million years.

915
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:55,199
Speaker 7: I shove it down.

916
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:56,239
Speaker 1: I met well.

917
00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:58,440
Speaker 5: I like the keys, I just not the bridge. I

918
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:01,639
prefer to come to it from a watery angle. So

919
00:49:01,679 --> 00:49:03,119
I go to ricochet dot com, check.

920
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:05,280
Speaker 1: Out the meetups page and you will see you know.

921
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:07,639
Speaker 5: And if you're not a member, well was Rob Long

922
00:49:08,199 --> 00:49:11,960
whoever wherever he's been likes to say join and then

923
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:13,920
just put out the call and wherever you are, there's

924
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:16,880
a fighting chance at Ricochet people will come to you.

925
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:20,039
In the flash, last thing we had another nine to

926
00:49:20,039 --> 00:49:24,280
eleven anniversary. Every year, it fades a bit more every year,

927
00:49:24,599 --> 00:49:29,719
the the tributes are a bit more muted. The anguish

928
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:33,760
still seems for some to be particularly raw. But it's

929
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:36,480
been a long time. And what are your thoughts on

930
00:49:36,519 --> 00:49:41,039
this day? Did you? I usually think the day before, oh,

931
00:49:41,079 --> 00:49:45,320
tomorrow is that day. And this may be one of

932
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:48,639
the years in which I didn't think that I knew

933
00:49:48,639 --> 00:49:50,760
it as soon as I woke up, because the just

934
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:52,039
you know, you look at your watch, you look at

935
00:49:52,039 --> 00:49:56,360
the date. It's just it's it's stamped, it's But I

936
00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:58,519
didn't think about it the day before. What did you

937
00:49:58,519 --> 00:49:58,920
get to do?

938
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:00,840
Speaker 7: I always do.

939
00:50:01,639 --> 00:50:05,400
Speaker 3: Also, I was flying on both September tenth and September eleventh,

940
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:08,039
so perhaps that focus in my mind. I think that

941
00:50:08,159 --> 00:50:11,760
quite inadvertently, I mean not completely intervertently. I did book

942
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:14,760
the flights, but not because I wanted to, but because

943
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:17,400
I had agreed to do an event somewhere. I have

944
00:50:17,599 --> 00:50:24,760
flown on about six of the last thirteen September eleventh

945
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:27,159
since I lived in the United States. That is a

946
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:31,679
strange feeling. It's just odd looking at your plane ticket

947
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:34,800
and it says September eleventh on it, it will never

948
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:35,840
not be strange.

949
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:38,559
Speaker 5: Well, when you do that again and the ticket actually

950
00:50:38,559 --> 00:50:40,559
has a power ball at the end of the flight.

951
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:43,960
Speaker 1: Number, that's when I would be a little oh boy.

952
00:50:44,159 --> 00:50:44,960
Speaker 7: Yeah, I was.

953
00:50:45,079 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 2: Well, I was in Washington that morning, staying at the

954
00:50:48,559 --> 00:50:50,480
University Club, just a few locked from the White House.

955
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:52,239
So I'm watching it on TV. But then hearing the

956
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:55,320
sirens start running a lot of them, and I thought, well,

957
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:58,440
something must be happening here. And as before the news

958
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:00,719
of the plane hitting the Pentagon and the White House

959
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:03,320
being evacuated, I was kind of close to an awful

960
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:06,800
lot of the noise anyway. E factually friends of mine saying,

961
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:09,119
oh my goodness, this is the first year, maybe a

962
00:51:09,199 --> 00:51:12,360
second year, that I have students coming into college who.

963
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:15,599
Speaker 1: Were born after nine to eleven. So I don't know.

964
00:51:15,679 --> 00:51:17,079
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, I grew up with World War

965
00:51:17,119 --> 00:51:20,360
Two parents and always talked about Pearl Harbor, right, that

966
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:24,960
was something that lasted forever, And you know, I sort

967
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:26,719
of was rmbed with that myself and still think of

968
00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:28,000
Pearl Harbor day when it comes.

969
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:30,639
Speaker 1: But I don't know.

970
00:51:31,159 --> 00:51:34,119
Speaker 2: I got to think the current generation who was probably

971
00:51:34,159 --> 00:51:35,559
doesn't think much about Pearl harbor.

972
00:51:35,599 --> 00:51:37,199
Speaker 1: I think it's going to be even.

973
00:51:37,039 --> 00:51:40,639
Speaker 2: Worse another generation from now, James, sadly, because it shouldn't be.

974
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:44,480
Speaker 1: I think you're right. As far as the planes go.

975
00:51:44,639 --> 00:51:47,679
Speaker 5: I live under the approach to the airport in Minneapolis,

976
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:50,719
and on nine to eleven there was a great calamity

977
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:53,679
as they brought all the planes down. They emptied the

978
00:51:53,719 --> 00:51:57,280
skies right, and then for a very unusual afternoon and evening,

979
00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:00,880
there was no noise above except for those the high

980
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:04,480
whine of a jet way overhead making circles figure eights

981
00:52:05,039 --> 00:52:08,119
and so on. On a normal seven nine to eleven

982
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:12,840
like we had this week, I hear the tremendous roar

983
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:15,280
of the engines overhead. Is one plane after the other

984
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:18,480
makes it's leisurely descent, and I'm glad that it's normal,

985
00:52:18,519 --> 00:52:21,440
and I remember the day that it wasn't. I won't forget,

986
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:23,320
but you're right, there are those coming up. I mean,

987
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:26,119
my daughter, it doesn't have a particular meaning to me,

988
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:29,360
even though for me one of the things I will

989
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:34,199
never forget is standing there watching all this happen on

990
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:38,000
the television while my daughter, toddler is playing on the floor,

991
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:41,280
and she picked up a small, little Fisher Price phone

992
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:43,800
that said hello Hello, and she's holding.

993
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:44,000
Speaker 1: It out to me.

994
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:46,840
Speaker 5: She has this delightful smile on her face as the

995
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:51,159
phone says hello Hello, like it's the future calling. I

996
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:54,960
will ever forget that anyway. There, we thank everyone for

997
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:57,559
listening to the podcast today. We advise you to do

998
00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:01,519
yourself a favor and by all means tries biotics and

999
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:03,800
go to rigaghet dot com sign up. If you haven't,

1000
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:06,599
you'll enjoy the member feed. Do not whatever, do not

1001
00:53:07,079 --> 00:53:10,280
do not go to Apple Podcasts and give us five stars.

1002
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:11,760
Speaker 1: That would be a horrible thing to do.

1003
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:15,760
Speaker 5: I'll be using that old reverse psychologically there stuff, you know.

1004
00:53:16,679 --> 00:53:18,440
Speaker 1: Thanks Charlie, thank you, Steven. Enjoy that.

1005
00:53:18,519 --> 00:53:20,280
Speaker 5: I give my regards to Norway, of course, in my

1006
00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:25,159
regards to swampy Damp Florida. And we'll see everybody in

1007
00:53:25,159 --> 00:53:26,159
the comments.

1008
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:29,440
Speaker 1: At Rigachet four point zero. Well next week. Ag