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Speaker 1: How'd you like to listen to dot net rocks with

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no ads? Easy? Become a patron for just five dollars

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a month. You get access to a private RSS feed

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where all the shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month,

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we'll get you that and a special dot net Rocks

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patron mug. Sign up now at Patreon dot dot NetRocks

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dot com. Hey, and welcome back to dot net Rocks.

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I'm Carl Franklin and I'm Richard Campbell. You know, Richard,

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we've been doing this show for so long that we're

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up almost up to episode two thousand. Yeah, and there's

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something that's pretty special is going to happen on episode

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two thousand.

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Speaker 2: I think we sort of sorted this out now because

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as soon as I thought about episode two thousand, I

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thought I got to talk about Y two K. Yeah,

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and then I realized all of the work for Y

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two K happened in nineteen ninety nine, so we should

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really do show nineteen ninety nine about Y two K.

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So yeah, putting that together. But two thousand, two thousand

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is a party.

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Speaker 1: Two thousand is literally a party. We're going to record

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it live at the party with Palermo in Seattle. Yeah,

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at Bellevue at the MVP summit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Jeryl, are you going to be there?

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Speaker 3: I'm not I'm undecided. I want to be there, but

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I have not been at an MVP summit as a

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Microsoft fe so as an employee, which I've been there

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a couple of times as an MVP, So I would

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love to be there from the other side, from at

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least ones in my Microsoft review. But so far it

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hasn't happened yet. But who knows. Maybe this is the year.

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This sounds like a great reason sound Yeah, I hope.

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Speaker 1: So it would be good to have you there, because

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what we're going to do is we're asking people right

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now to go to dot net rocks dot com and

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at the top menu, there's this vox pop section now

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in a spot page, and we want you to use

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that page to leave us a voice message. And we're

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going to gather up these short messages for the two

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thousandth episode, things like how long have you been listening

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to dot net rocks And by the way, we're gonna

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do nineteen ninety nine on Y two K. So if

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you worked on the Y two K problem in the

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late nineties, describe your experience, and you know, things like

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how has dot net rocks affected your career or anything

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that you want to say to us, we'd be happy

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to do that. So remember, go to the voxpop page

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at dot NetRocks dot com and leave a message. Okay, yeah,

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I'm sorry.

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Speaker 3: I was around fourteen, so I didn't really work on

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the Y two K thing. I'm sorry. I do remember.

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I do remember. I do remember being at the computer

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because I was a nerd. Of course, aren't we all

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like we grow up nerves right like we started early off.

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I remember on the night being behind my.

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Speaker 1: PC and be like three two one, Nothing happened.

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Speaker 3: Nothing happened, The clock just went over, nothing happened, and

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that was it.

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Speaker 1: Well, we're going to find out why nothing happened when

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we hear.

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Speaker 2: When we do that, it's only because a whole bunch

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of people worked really, really hard and pulled it off.

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Speaker 1: Yeah all right, Well let's roll the crazy music for

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better no framework.

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Speaker 2: Awesome?

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Speaker 1: Well, I have a new open source tool by guess who,

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Simon Krop How did you guess?

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Speaker 2: You know? Thattman needs a hobby? Oh wait, I think

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he has one.

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Speaker 1: He needs to spend more time with his family, it's

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what he needs.

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Speaker 3: What do we got?

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Speaker 1: This is called entity framework dot order by Okay, So

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basically it does default ordering for all entity framework queries

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based on fluent configuration, so you get automatic ordering. You

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don't have to do an explicit order by. It has

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support for include some nested collections are automatically ordered. You

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have multi column ordering, automatic indexes, and validation mode. Basically,

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you enable the interceptor and you can figure it with

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the with the default order buys right, and then you

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query without explicitly saying order by. You just you know, contacts,

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dot employees, dot two list, dasync or whatever. And Bob's

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your uncle, so he's basically just taking more, uh, taking

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more work away from you. You don't have to do this,

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and and let's face it, I mean order by is

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something that we always do. Yeah, why would you want

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just overhead? Why would you want a collection of things

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just randomly sorted?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, good, that's a good one. Thanks Sank Simon.

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Appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you Simon. It's amazing.

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Speaker 3: Talk with your family.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. Please dude, Well, Richard, who's talking to

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us today?

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Speaker 2: Hey? I grabbed a comment off of show nineteen eighty four,

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which is what we did with Sam and Jerome talking

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about Uno and dot net tennel. Well, we talked about

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Maui on that show as well. Yeah, of course, nothing

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but do but the only the comment we've I went

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through a bunch of Maui comments, including the ones on

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Gerald show. It's and you know, we've had a bunch,

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but we've also read them all. This comments is not

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actually about Maui, but it is relevant to the section

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of the show because this comments from John, who says

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plus one for incorporating the guests into the intro section. Yep, yeah, yeah,

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we're listening. We're doing it. So thanks for the feedback.

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Speaker 3: I'm a guinea pig, I'm a social experiment, so I

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hope ye this opens the door for other guests. It's fine,

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it's fine.

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Speaker 1: Well, the thing is, we've done it on occasion, but yeah,

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only you know, kind of when it's relevant to what

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we're talking about. But I think it's good. I think

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it's great too, and we're going to do that about then.

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Speaker 2: So John, thank you so much for your comment. A

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copy of music CODEY is on its way to you,

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and if you'd like, I can copy of music O buy.

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I write a comment on the website at dot NetRocks

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dot com or on the facebooks to publish every show there.

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And if you comment there and I read on the show,

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we'll send you copy of music O Bay.

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Speaker 1: And what Richard's talking about is music to Code Buy.

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This is a collection of twenty five minute musical pieces

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that I wrote specifically for instrumentals and for focus, and

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people have been using it successfully to help them stay

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in a state of flow while they're coding. We have

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twenty two tracks now and you can get the whole

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collection at music too Coode by dot net in MP

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three wave or flak formats.

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Speaker 2: Very nice.

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Speaker 1: All right, Since this is episode nineteen eighty six, we

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want to talk about this kind of sad year.

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Speaker 2: It was a tough year, two ways about it.

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Speaker 1: This was the year of explosions Chernobyl nuclear disaster. On

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April twenty six, a Chernobyl reactor exploded. Significant radioactivity material

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got spread across Europe, and it resulted from a flawed

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reactor design and operator errors leading to media in long

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term health impacts.

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Speaker 2: The RBMK reactor design it needs careful control and they

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were racing to do a test to qualify this reactor

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for the power. Demands of the Soviet unit time were

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so high that they couldn't do it during the day

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because they needed the power. And so instead of taking

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the A team who was supposed to do the test,

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it was run at night with the C team, and

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they didn't set up the conditions properly. Like the series

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of mistakes is so dramatic, combined with the issues of

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the RBMK to actually create a steam explosion so violent

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that the fifty ton core of the reactor was blown

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across the countryside. Yeah, it's really very remarkably bad.

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Speaker 1: Hands across America happened on May twenty fifth, millions participated

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in a fundraising event aimed at raising awareness for hunger

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and homelessness by forming a human chain across the United States.

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In sports Super Bowl twenty on January twenty sixth, Chicago

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Bears beat the New England Patriots forty six to ten.

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That was a whoopin'. The NBA Dunk Contest happened on

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February eight Spud Web at five seven when the NBA

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Slam Dunk Contest, showcasing his incredible athleticism. You know, it's

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not very often that a five foot seven basketball player

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can do any slam dunks at all, let alone. You know,

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when a slam dunk contest, usually it's the six seven

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foot people that could just drop it in the net.

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So that was pretty good. The rest I'm gonna leave

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to you, except for movies, go ahead.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I know I just was going that I was

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totally prepared for, like your research, which is so good.

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Nineteen eighty six is a year I was born. So

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September tenth on a Wednesday. I still remember very vividly.

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No I don't. But I was like, you're leading into

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leading up to introducing me here, but absolutely not. So

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this lines up perfectly.

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Speaker 1: This is good. Well, you know, we didn't say it

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was the year of explosions.

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Speaker 2: There you go. I don't know how vigorous that birth was.

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Speaker 3: Well, so the nuclear thing, of course that I remember

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my mother telling me. Of course she was pregnant with

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me at the time, so she was like they were worried, right,

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Like they had measures like in the Netherlands of like

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stuff floating in the air, so they were like worried

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of like what's that going to do and what effects

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is that going to have? So yeah, just a little

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side tengine here.

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Speaker 1: Well that explains a lot.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, well there you go.

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Speaker 1: All right. Before I hand it over to Richard, I

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want to go down the top ten movies of nineteen

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eighty six. Top Gun by far outgrossed the second most

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popular movie by about sixty million dollars. Crocodile Dundee, No boy,

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that's a knife. That's the best scene in the world.

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The Karate Kid Part two Back to School one of

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my favorites. Great performance by Sam Kinnison and History Class

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Aliens follow up to Alien. I don't know, just came

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to them. I guess The Color Purple. Very very good movie.

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Historic Star Trek four, The Voyage Home one of my

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favorite Star Trek movies of all time. Ferris Bueller's Day Off,

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of course excellent. Ruthless People. Do you know that that

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was a Walt Disney Studios movie. Ruthless People, No kidding? Yeah?

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And Out of Africa.

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Speaker 2: That's grateful.

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Speaker 1: My mother couldn't stop talking about meryls. Street. Some other

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notable films, Platoons, stand by Me, Color of Money. There

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was a lot of good movies, but those are the tops.

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Speaker 2: Stun It another stunning ear. I mean ye. Movie wise,

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what can I say?

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Speaker 3: It was a good year.

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Speaker 1: Thanks JERRYL. All right, Richard, talk to us about space

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and tech.

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Speaker 2: So there were two space shuttle launches in nineteen eighty six.

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The first was a January eighteenth, and it was the

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Columbia who did a normal mission STS sixty one sat

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C deploying some satellites doing experimentation. But of course the

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only one we remember is on January twenty eighth STS

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fifty one L when Challenger, after the seventy three seconds

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of flight, disintegrated, killing all seven astronauts on board. It

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was only Challenger's tenth flight, it was the most active shuttle.

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There was a number of reasons for the incident, the

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main one being the O ring system on the solid

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rocker boosters. Yeah, a shuttle won't fly again for another

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thirty two months. The out of they'll build an additional

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shuttle out of the spare parts to create a shuttle

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called Endeavor. It's also when the Air Force largely exits

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the program and Van der Berg will never get used,

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and the testing and evaluation of shuttles to make them

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safe for flight will get so long that they'll never

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apply more than five missions or six missions a year.

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Speaker 1: That was one of those moments where you remember exactly

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where you were when you heard it. Yeah, I was

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driving my father's Toyota Ursell to college in the morning

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and I heard it on the radio and I just

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couldn't believe it. And then of course all the TV

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coverage and the family is just a horrible sure no.

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Speaker 2: And it was the teacher in space, Krista McAuliffe, right, like,

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this was the civilian capable vehicle, and it just wasn't true.

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Flight in space is dangerous now, of course, it's an

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overwhelming story in space. But this is also the year

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that the mir space station is launched the initial module

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called the functional Cargo Block. It'll eventually be assembled to

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a much larger spacecraft that the Shuttle will visit. This

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is the year that Voyager two flies by Uranus. And

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this is also the year that Haley's comment is approaching

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the Sun, and so a fleet of spacecrafts, five of

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them in eighty six, Vega one to two, SUSA, SECA, Gata,

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and Giato all do flybys of Haley to get a

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good look and teach us more about comments.

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Speaker 1: I remember seeing those pictures in National geographic magazine Amazing.

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Speaker 2: On the computer side of things, is the year of

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the Compact Desk Pro three eighty six, first you know

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all thirty two bit machines. Also the year that ib

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ever releases the AT one oh one keyboard, which we

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all basically still use. I think it's everybody's derived from

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that keyboard more or less. The Scuzzy one standard is set. Also,

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the i E t F the Internet Engineering Task Force

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is formed, so they're getting series about you know what

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with a public internet looked like, although we're still years

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away from that.

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Speaker 1: It's also the first Maybe that's why Scuzzy had so

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many versions.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, everybody wants to do their own thing. This

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is the first time the term vaporware is written down.

259
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A writer in Time magazine, Philip Elmer DeWitt, talks about

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products that never are announced but never actually ships. And

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here's a computer you've never ever heard of, the Connection

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Machine CM one. So this was a computer designed to

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do neural network It was an artificial intelligence computer. It

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had sixty five and thirty six one bit processor wow,

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built in an array to do high scale or compute.

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They only made a couple of them. It didn't work.

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All that well, and it was very, very expensive, so

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so much for that, but just you know, it was

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the first time that we were we had waves of

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AI technology and we're going through that again. This also

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the year that Microsoft is listed on the New York

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Stock Exchange and Bill Gates becomes a billionaire. And to

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go along with that, they ship MS DOOFS three point

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two and the first ms dos virus is found in

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the wild. It's called Brain and it propagates floppy to floppy.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: And finally, this is the year that development on Postcress starts.

278
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Postcrists sequel group of ex Oracle guys want to make

279
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their own open source database and they go about it

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that way and the Erlang and Oberon languages specifications are released.

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Speaker 1: Awesome. Yeah, that's what I got, all right, So it's

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time to bring back on the show our guest Gerald Varslos.

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He's a software engineer at Microsoft, where he works on

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the dot Net team. With well over a decade of experience,

285
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he's built software solutions across industries, specializing in mobile and

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cross platform development with dot Net, Maui, Slash, Zamarin, asp Net, Azure,

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Get and these days of course AI, which we'll probably

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creep into this show somewhere because it always does.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I was gonna say, like, I hope we can

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make it without AI, but then you know, Maui is

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fifty percent AI, always has been. So there you have.

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Speaker 2: It's only four letters, two of them are there. You go.

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Speaker 1: It's a good one.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So what is new in the world of Maui? My friend?

296
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Speaker 3: What is new in the world of Maui? What isn't?

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What isn't? Yeah? Of course, like you know, we're recording

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this in the new year. This is going to be

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released in a new year. But in November of last year,

300
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of course, we had dot at ten, right, so that's

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of course our big point as well. We're part of

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the dot net ecosystem, the dot net product, so dont

303
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Maui also had a big release with dot at ten

304
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as well, and you know, we're all about kind of

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like quality performance, just like I guess the overall dot

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net product. But that's really been our focus as well,

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because it's been no secret that you know, we had

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a bit of a rocky start around don at five

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done at six, Yeah, but you know, things have gotten better.

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We're talking to customers all the time and they've been

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saying to us, like you're on the right path. We

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feel as of kind of like done at seven, done

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at a time frame. We feel confident that we can

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migrate our apps now to this version of don at Maui,

315
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and lots and lots of people have not just migrations

316
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but also new apps, and now I think we've done.

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At ten. We for the first time in a long

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time since the transition from examine forms. If you know

319
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a little bit about all the history here, we had

320
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some room to not just focus on quality like super important.

321
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No one is this debating that, right, but us as

322
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developers on it. I imagine that most of your listeners

323
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are developers, right, You like to also do some new stuff, right,

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not just bock fixing. We did it because we had to,

325
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because it's important, but for the first time in a

326
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long time, we now also had a little bit of

327
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room to add some new stuff, make some major improvements

328
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that some people have been waiting for for a long time.

329
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So that was really fun for us as well.

330
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Speaker 2: Now I'm the historian around here, and so I'm gonna

331
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you weren't with Microsoft when this all went down, but

332
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I do know the story of what happened in two

333
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thousand and six because or with dot net six in

334
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the original version, because you guys they were the team

335
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was put in a possible situation. Dot Net six was

336
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a very important version of dot net. It was, you know,

337
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big shifts happening there. That's the pull off of the

338
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of the the ux APIs like really are restructuring. It's

339
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also vs. Twenty two, which is the only thing that

340
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we'll work on dot Net six and you guys are

341
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trying to make an API between a moving version of

342
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the framework and a moving version of the studio and

343
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there are no alternative tools, like there is no way

344
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you could have made that product at that time.

345
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Speaker 3: That's yes, we were I think the kind of like

346
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the term in English is like we were we were

347
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building the bus while we were driving something along those lines.

348
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That's that's exactly what we were doing. Like and the

349
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other thing that you didn't even mention that people generally

350
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didn't receive very well because it was full of in

351
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development is the whole workloads the distribution of how dot

352
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at Bowie was distributed. That was a concept, but you know,

353
00:19:20,039 --> 00:19:23,039
there was still a lot to be built there. So yeah,

354
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we didn't really have an ide. We didn't really have

355
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a way to distribute. We didn't there was nothing for

356
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us to work with. I don't know how we did

357
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it back then. So yeah, it was it was crazy times.

358
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Speaker 2: I I that's why David Norton now looks like that,

359
00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,359
like he's permanently but.

360
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Speaker 3: He looks great. He looks great. I can tell he's recovering.

361
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Speaker 2: I had a lot of drinks with him back in

362
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the day and we just talked about that pain, and

363
00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,759
I'm like, what a situation to be in. And it

364
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was predictable, like they they could have known. Yeah, it's

365
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pretty obvious this is the situation you could be in.

366
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But within the within six months you kind of got

367
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to the release you meant to do. Yeah, but I'm

368
00:20:07,279 --> 00:20:10,000
with you. You've caught up since then, Yeah.

369
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Speaker 3: Exactly exactly. Like you know, people have been investing in

370
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:18,119
Examine because Examine has been around for like I don't know,

371
00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,039
a decade, right, all things counted and even before Nail

372
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kind of like yeah, so there's a lot of history

373
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there and everything worked also there. Just it's the nature

374
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of this framework, right, Like people will be like, oh,

375
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I'm so frustrated things break left and right, like, yeah,

376
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we're building tools on top of xcode, Android tooling that

377
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is constantly moving. We're not enemies, but we're also not

378
00:20:43,279 --> 00:20:45,720
necessarily friends, right, Like, they don't give us a heads

379
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up of like, hey, this is going to be a

380
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,599
breaking change, especially Apple in point releases, they'll just break

381
00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,319
the hell out of us and it's going to be like, Okay,

382
00:20:53,319 --> 00:20:56,039
what happened? Right, So we're building on top of tools

383
00:20:56,039 --> 00:20:59,599
that are not necessarily meant to be combined to be

384
00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,000
worked on, and they're not going to stop us, right

385
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:04,599
because at the end of the day, we're gonna have

386
00:21:04,759 --> 00:21:07,160
them more apps in the app stores and you're going

387
00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:09,640
to get revenue from that. So they're happy whatever the

388
00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:15,039
app is. But you know, it's it's it's a thing that, yeah,

389
00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:18,559
it has a lot of different sides to it, which

390
00:21:18,599 --> 00:21:21,200
makes it interesting. Let's say that way to.

391
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Speaker 1: Work with There's one thing that I have been telling people.

392
00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:28,160
I've been teaching the Zamora and zamar inforums MAUI for

393
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:31,400
a long time, and the thing that people really need

394
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:34,640
to understand is that if you think of the cross

395
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:38,359
platform nature of a web browser, right and how it

396
00:21:38,519 --> 00:21:42,599
just works so well on every platform on every browser, like,

397
00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:46,039
there there the differences and the experience between the browsers

398
00:21:46,079 --> 00:21:49,640
is really shrunk. And the reason for that is because

399
00:21:49,839 --> 00:21:54,759
all of these interested parties get together and create standards

400
00:21:54,799 --> 00:21:57,880
and then they implement those standards and all that stuff.

401
00:21:58,319 --> 00:22:03,079
Whereas you guys, for cross platform MAUI in particular, you've

402
00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:06,839
got Android to deal with, and you've got Apple to

403
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,759
deal with, and you've got Windows to deal with, and

404
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,200
you know, Linux and Mac and all those other things

405
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:16,720
in places that it goes in. You one company basically

406
00:22:16,799 --> 00:22:19,559
has to do what an industry did for the browser,

407
00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:21,960
and you have to keep on top of that and

408
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,799
make sure that everything works uniformly across all those platforms.

409
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:27,960
And that's a big bite, isn't it.

410
00:22:28,039 --> 00:22:30,119
Speaker 3: And exactly, and it's not just a framework, right, it's

411
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:32,359
not just us saying like, hey, this is you define

412
00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:35,359
a button and then we translate that for you. But

413
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,079
it's all the tooling around it. Again, especially iOS like

414
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,799
they make sure that all their software runs on their hardware,

415
00:22:41,839 --> 00:22:43,759
so you need that hardware. Right. There's no way for

416
00:22:43,839 --> 00:22:46,839
us to get around that because it's simply in their licensing,

417
00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,680
so they're even legally, we just cannot work around that,

418
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:53,640
so we cannot do anything to improve that tooling or

419
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,039
provide you with the tooling. We have to work with

420
00:22:56,079 --> 00:22:58,880
what they put out there, and again it's not made accessible.

421
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:03,640
It's made for their needs for their ecosystem, so it's

422
00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,240
it's everything in there, and that makes a lot of

423
00:23:07,079 --> 00:23:09,880
different ingredients and that also makes it sometimes interesting to

424
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:13,440
work with. So yeah, all things considered, like, you know,

425
00:23:13,519 --> 00:23:15,279
I think we're we're doing a great job, if I

426
00:23:15,279 --> 00:23:18,599
may say so myself, but it's hard to sometimes explain

427
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,000
that to customers because and I understand it from their

428
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,640
perspective too, because before I joined Microsoft, I was a

429
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,440
customer and I would be frustrated too with like what

430
00:23:26,519 --> 00:23:27,559
the heck they did break now?

431
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:27,799
Speaker 2: Right?

432
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:31,039
Speaker 3: Like what did they do now? But it's sometimes out

433
00:23:31,039 --> 00:23:33,119
of our control, and I think all things considered, like

434
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:38,400
it's still you still get more gains than hopefully frustration.

435
00:23:38,599 --> 00:23:40,640
So it's it's a great framework.

436
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:43,079
Speaker 1: Let's talk about recent updates like.

437
00:23:43,559 --> 00:23:51,119
Speaker 3: Ten yep, so, like I said, mostly focused on quality, performance, simplicity,

438
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:54,240
but also modern right, so whatever already said, like iOS

439
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,960
and Android, they progress. I think Android picked up to

440
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,720
pace pretty much as well. So they're really saying at

441
00:24:00,839 --> 00:24:04,319
least yearly for iOS. It's pretty predictable by now we

442
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,799
know the pace WWDC and then in September the actual

443
00:24:07,839 --> 00:24:11,359
release Android I think you know. They put out versions

444
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,480
as well, and we had a couple of legacy things.

445
00:24:14,519 --> 00:24:16,799
One of them that I worked on, notably was like

446
00:24:16,839 --> 00:24:19,480
the media picker. Because it's twenty twenty six now all

447
00:24:19,519 --> 00:24:22,039
apps need to have some form of capturing a video

448
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,839
or a picture, right, and we had the media Picker API,

449
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,599
which was too simple. There's a whole history there. I

450
00:24:27,599 --> 00:24:29,400
won't bore you with that unless you really want you.

451
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,000
But that had to do with the transition actually from

452
00:24:32,079 --> 00:24:35,559
Zambering to Maui, and we started implementing all the bits,

453
00:24:35,759 --> 00:24:37,920
but then Maui came along and we only had time

454
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,640
to do the really basics, so we stuck with that,

455
00:24:40,799 --> 00:24:42,680
and then we had to do all the buck fixing right,

456
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,319
so we never had the time to add new things

457
00:24:45,319 --> 00:24:47,920
that people kept asking for, like why don't you do this?

458
00:24:48,039 --> 00:24:48,279
Speaker 2: Why?

459
00:24:48,319 --> 00:24:48,519
Speaker 3: Why?

460
00:24:48,519 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 2: Why?

461
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:53,160
Speaker 3: Why? We finally found the time, so we use the modern,

462
00:24:53,279 --> 00:24:56,920
more modern APIs on the underline platforms right before they

463
00:24:57,279 --> 00:25:00,000
really get deprecated and get removed and we're really in trouble.

464
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,400
Then we really have to. Ideally you want to be

465
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,680
in front of that. So media picker, your APIs to

466
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,160
get a picture, to get a video, and then you

467
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:12,680
can use that for further processing maybe with AI. I'm

468
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:17,799
obligated to mention that every obligatory. Yeah, so you know

469
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:20,839
that's super helpful. But it's it's an all thing considered,

470
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:24,720
it's a minor thing. What are all based Because Carl

471
00:25:24,759 --> 00:25:26,920
you mentioned it. You've been teaching Examine, You've been working

472
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,400
with examin since forever. What are all the Examine, all

473
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:34,559
the MAUI apps made of? It's example, right, Examle is everywhere,

474
00:25:34,559 --> 00:25:37,920
example everything, not just Examine and Maui, but also in

475
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,519
all the other products. So it was about time that

476
00:25:40,559 --> 00:25:43,240
we did something there because if you know a little

477
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:46,839
bit about exammle historically like that gets inflated at run time,

478
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:48,640
So whenever you make a typo or do a thing,

479
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,839
it will blow up at runtime. If you don't catch

480
00:25:51,839 --> 00:25:54,000
it during your testing, it will happen to your customer.

481
00:25:54,599 --> 00:25:57,240
Your app gets one star ratings, you will lose your job,

482
00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,559
you'll lose your house, your wife leaves you, your kids,

483
00:25:59,599 --> 00:25:59,839
don't what.

484
00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:00,920
Speaker 1: It dog runs.

485
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:02,480
Speaker 3: You don't want that to happen.

486
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:03,319
Speaker 1: It's going to be a.

487
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:09,799
Speaker 3: Exactly, So we needed to make some investments there. We

488
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:12,039
already made it better at some point for examiner informs

489
00:26:12,079 --> 00:26:14,880
that also of course went into dotted. Now we added

490
00:26:15,319 --> 00:26:21,240
example compilation, so that already compiled your examle to intermediate language. Right,

491
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:23,880
so the language that gets you know, she sharp gets

492
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,319
compiled to before it actually runs on the diet run time.

493
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,599
And that was already better. But not a lot of people.

494
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,160
I know, like two people that can read IL, let

495
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,720
alone write it. So one of them is on our team.

496
00:26:34,799 --> 00:26:37,039
Speaker 2: They're not normal people. Those are odd folks.

497
00:26:37,079 --> 00:26:39,880
Speaker 3: They're not normal people. Thank you, Stefan. Sorry Stefan, you're

498
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:41,599
on our team. He's not normal.

499
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:43,359
Speaker 1: He will he assignments on that list.

500
00:26:44,279 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 3: Okay, three people. So we needed to make that better

501
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:53,240
and at that time that was the best that we

502
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:55,079
could do. Right, We could do it to IL and

503
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:56,799
that would give you a little bit more information, but

504
00:26:56,839 --> 00:27:00,680
it's still not great. Nowadays we have like and source

505
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:02,839
generators and all that kind of crazy stuff, right, so

506
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:05,599
what we can do now is take your examle and

507
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,480
generate that to actual C sharp code, so it will

508
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,039
always be C sharp code. It's not the prettiest to

509
00:27:11,039 --> 00:27:13,960
look at, right, because it's source generated. You need to

510
00:27:14,319 --> 00:27:18,839
have like fully the full name spaces everything written now

511
00:27:19,599 --> 00:27:21,759
so that there's no clashes and whatever. So it's a

512
00:27:21,799 --> 00:27:23,680
little bit hard to parse, but it's still c sharp.

513
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,960
Code doesn't really matter because if we do our job correctly,

514
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,359
you never have to look at that code. But everything

515
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,000
you write, example, will now be generated in code, and

516
00:27:33,079 --> 00:27:36,000
that means much better performance because it doesn't need to

517
00:27:36,039 --> 00:27:38,480
be parsed, it doesn't need to be inflated. It's code already.

518
00:27:38,759 --> 00:27:42,119
It gets compiled even before bill time or generated.

519
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 1: I should say, and you have try catch.

520
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,640
Speaker 3: It's there, you have try catch. We can point you to, hey,

521
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:49,920
there is what's happening. You can debug through it. You

522
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:51,440
can set break points right.

523
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,160
Speaker 1: Not so easy to do, examle.

524
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 3: Not so easy to do example. Maybe even more important

525
00:27:56,839 --> 00:27:59,680
this is I think this is just like I'm throwing

526
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,359
it out, not based on any real data. I think

527
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,400
this is our number one complaint. The debug version of

528
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:06,480
your app is different than.

529
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 2: The release version.

530
00:28:07,839 --> 00:28:10,559
Speaker 3: Your debug app will work great, then people will release

531
00:28:10,599 --> 00:28:13,759
it and it will crash immediately. That all happens because

532
00:28:13,799 --> 00:28:17,319
of like AOT and trimming related stuff because we want

533
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,920
to deliver the best app and for iOS that's always

534
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,559
been super aggressive, like they need it ahead of time compiled,

535
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,119
so we will trim off paths of code that you're

536
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:32,880
not using. Exammle does not necessarily have a strong referencing code.

537
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,319
So what will happen is that in your release build

538
00:28:35,559 --> 00:28:38,319
some things that are only defined exammle, because the compiler

539
00:28:38,359 --> 00:28:41,279
cannot see a path between your code and example, will

540
00:28:41,319 --> 00:28:44,599
get trimmed off, and suddenly things in your binary are

541
00:28:44,599 --> 00:28:49,279
missing and it will start crashing on release builds. Now

542
00:28:49,359 --> 00:28:52,079
that doesn't happen anymore because it's also sharp code. There

543
00:28:52,119 --> 00:28:54,480
is clear paths for the compiler to follow with like hey,

544
00:28:54,519 --> 00:28:56,240
this code needs to be an ear. It does not

545
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,240
need to be trimmed away. So this is like a

546
00:28:59,319 --> 00:28:59,720
huge thing.

547
00:29:00,079 --> 00:29:03,519
Speaker 1: At some point be testing your release mode code.

548
00:29:04,279 --> 00:29:06,279
Speaker 3: For sure, for sure, But you know people call you

549
00:29:06,319 --> 00:29:08,880
know people, I know me, I know me.

550
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 1: It's very easy. You just flip it from debug to

551
00:29:12,519 --> 00:29:15,079
release and run. Very true.

552
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, software gets tested on the customer.

553
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 3: So yeah, there you got test in production, testing production.

554
00:29:23,799 --> 00:29:26,559
So that's that's like the big thing, right, Like one

555
00:29:26,559 --> 00:29:29,279
of the bigger things that we've been working on together

556
00:29:29,319 --> 00:29:32,960
with that, we've we've introduced some other example optimizations there,

557
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,799
like example can be very forbose. Right, so we have

558
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:41,400
some simplification, some implicit namespacing, so you can really trim

559
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,240
down your example by a lot. It's a little bit

560
00:29:44,279 --> 00:29:46,440
hard to explain by just talking about it is really

561
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:48,640
something that you have to see, so go look that up.

562
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,160
But you can really trim down your example in your

563
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:52,759
files right now. So that's that's one of.

564
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:57,079
Speaker 1: The so is the UH is the way to code

565
00:29:57,359 --> 00:30:02,920
now in twenty twenty six, get code pilot, start, start

566
00:30:03,039 --> 00:30:05,720
having it write pages for you, having them connect them,

567
00:30:05,799 --> 00:30:08,400
put them together, and then when it all works, you

568
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:12,480
generate the c sharp and put in your try catches

569
00:30:13,119 --> 00:30:17,079
and hit build on release and test it before you

570
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:17,640
release it.

571
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 3: Well, this is of course like the other big investment,

572
00:30:20,039 --> 00:30:22,000
right and I think this is even like beyond a

573
00:30:22,079 --> 00:30:24,519
ten and it's kind of like it doesn't follow like

574
00:30:24,559 --> 00:30:27,960
our release trends because it goes outside of the MAUISDK.

575
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,440
But of course what we were really thinking about is

576
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,279
like how can we make our customers more successful building

577
00:30:33,319 --> 00:30:36,079
MAUI apps through copilot? Right, So there's this is like

578
00:30:36,119 --> 00:30:38,759
a whole new world, and you've probably talked about that

579
00:30:38,839 --> 00:30:41,759
in all kinds of episodes from all kinds of angles.

580
00:30:41,799 --> 00:30:44,880
But we as a team really need to reinvent ourselves

581
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,079
too with like, yes, we need to have all the

582
00:30:48,079 --> 00:30:51,720
documentation in order suddenly. Oh no, no one loves documentation,

583
00:30:52,039 --> 00:30:54,480
but this is important because that will be context for

584
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,839
co pilots, for agents to look at on how to

585
00:30:57,839 --> 00:31:00,640
build MAOIAPP. So we need to make sure we're doubling

586
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,440
down on like, hey, the things that we were like, eh, documentation,

587
00:31:03,559 --> 00:31:05,839
we'll do that when we get there. We need to

588
00:31:05,839 --> 00:31:08,119
have it now, right, So have that out there, have

589
00:31:08,279 --> 00:31:10,559
all the instructions out there, the custom agent. So that's

590
00:31:10,599 --> 00:31:12,079
what we have with the investing as well.

591
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,119
Speaker 2: I would bet that getting rid of the old documentation

592
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:16,480
that's incorrect, Like.

593
00:31:16,839 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 3: That's been interesting too.

594
00:31:18,079 --> 00:31:18,279
Speaker 1: Yep.

595
00:31:18,319 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 2: A lot of the conversations I have with people getting

596
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,400
their data in order is about archiving. Yeah.

597
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 1: Well, fortunately the documentation at Microsoft Learn now is keyed

598
00:31:28,759 --> 00:31:34,240
by version of dot net, right, so even even copilot

599
00:31:34,359 --> 00:31:36,680
knows that, well that was an old version.

600
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 3: Yeah. So two things. That's that I think the whole

601
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:42,440
going from Examine to MAUI of course we didn't know

602
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:44,720
that at the time, because that's now four or five

603
00:31:44,799 --> 00:31:47,640
years ago. Is now a good thing because at least

604
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,039
we kind of like got rid of the whole examine. Like, sure,

605
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,519
a model will probably pick up on some of the

606
00:31:52,559 --> 00:31:54,759
history and find things that are similar, but at least

607
00:31:54,759 --> 00:31:56,680
it will search for MAUI and not examine anymore, right,

608
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:58,559
because then it will find all that history there too.

609
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:01,880
So that's the And yes, the Microsoft learned they also

610
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,920
have a hosted MCP server, which really helps. I noticed

611
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:07,519
because those models are trained up to a certain point.

612
00:32:07,559 --> 00:32:11,279
So if they're trained up till September twenty twenty five,

613
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:13,960
it doesn't know much about the dot ne ten release.

614
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,279
Actually working with MAUI is always funny because I will

615
00:32:17,279 --> 00:32:20,839
go and say to it, like because we're obviously using

616
00:32:20,839 --> 00:32:23,400
it to develop MAUI now as well, and I'll say like, oh,

617
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,799
this looks like something iOS twenty six specific. And if

618
00:32:26,839 --> 00:32:28,960
you know a little bit about iOS, they jumped from

619
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,920
iOS eighteen to twenty six, right, And I'll be like, oh,

620
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,000
this is iOS twenty six, and we need to see

621
00:32:34,039 --> 00:32:36,240
if something changed here, and it will be like you said,

622
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,599
iOS twenty six, But that doesn't exist. You probably mean

623
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:42,400
iOS eighteen. So I'll just look up the iOS eighteen. No, no, no,

624
00:32:42,599 --> 00:32:45,400
this exists. Go to your online sources, look it up.

625
00:32:46,319 --> 00:32:47,640
So and then with having.

626
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 1: That's just as bad as somebody who's been sleeping for

627
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,400
the last ten years and then obstinate enough to tell

628
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:54,200
you you're wrong.

629
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, right, yep, yeah exactly. So then Microsoft learned

630
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:02,799
MCP really helps to connect and feed a model with

631
00:33:02,839 --> 00:33:05,079
the context of like, oh, these are all the new APIs,

632
00:33:05,079 --> 00:33:06,759
all the new stuff that I can actually work with

633
00:33:06,759 --> 00:33:09,160
without having the model actually have to be updated. So

634
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:10,519
that really helps.

635
00:33:10,799 --> 00:33:12,559
Speaker 1: I think this is a good place to take a break.

636
00:33:13,279 --> 00:33:15,200
So let's do that and we'll be right back with

637
00:33:15,279 --> 00:33:18,160
more with Gerald and Maui and all that happy stuff

638
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:24,640
after these very important messages. All right, and we're back.

639
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:25,759
It's Nott at Rocks.

640
00:33:26,039 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 2: I'm Carl Richard, and I'm sale Gerald and he's Gerald.

641
00:33:31,279 --> 00:33:35,799
Speaker 1: Talk to Maui and I didn't mean to blow your

642
00:33:35,799 --> 00:33:39,160
stack there, So if you can clid back, we'll continue

643
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:39,920
where we left off.

644
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, So what else? Okay, let me mention one

645
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,519
other thing. What we've been investing in is like the

646
00:33:48,559 --> 00:33:51,839
safe areas, right, So that's our term in the mobile

647
00:33:51,839 --> 00:33:55,480
space behind the notches and the dynamic islands, because basically

648
00:33:55,559 --> 00:33:58,039
all the phones and I think we're gonna go to

649
00:33:58,079 --> 00:34:01,920
the next hurdle now, which is foldable phones, if I

650
00:34:02,079 --> 00:34:04,559
have to believe the rumors, But right now we're still

651
00:34:04,559 --> 00:34:06,920
struggling with all the camera holes and all that kind

652
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,320
of things, and you can lay out things behind them

653
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,239
or not right. So again there we had a little

654
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:18,039
bit of legacy code still lying around, which was like, hey,

655
00:34:18,199 --> 00:34:20,480
we had something to work with the APIs, but it

656
00:34:20,519 --> 00:34:24,760
was not super intuitive. So again there we made big

657
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,000
investments to make that much much easier to work with.

658
00:34:27,079 --> 00:34:29,840
So especially I'm an iOS user, right so I think

659
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:32,440
Android at some point started doing this as well. But

660
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,599
especially on iOS, what you would have you would have

661
00:34:35,679 --> 00:34:37,719
to swipe up right, you will have a little bar

662
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,559
down there or the dynamic island there at the top,

663
00:34:41,159 --> 00:34:44,559
and then whatever you stayed between these things, then it's

664
00:34:44,639 --> 00:34:46,679
that's kind of like your safe areas are the top

665
00:34:46,679 --> 00:34:49,519
and the bottom lines. So if you stay between them,

666
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:51,679
then at the top you will have some white space

667
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,320
and then at the bottom two your designer does not

668
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:56,320
like that. The designer on your team is like no, no,

669
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,480
I want to scroll behind that little part right there.

670
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,039
So now we've made that easier to do that with

671
00:35:01,199 --> 00:35:04,360
mawips as well, which you know, one of those things,

672
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:06,719
and with example too, like if we do our job right,

673
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,679
you should not notice with the safe areas, you will

674
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:11,840
like to have control. So that's what we did. Now.

675
00:35:12,119 --> 00:35:15,480
It's one of those things that are seemingly very small

676
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:17,880
features like oh yeah, sure, I just flipped the switch

677
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,440
and I draw behind it, but super hard to get

678
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:21,719
it right for all the platforms.

679
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:21,920
Speaker 2: You know.

680
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:24,760
Speaker 1: I was just talking with Dan Roth on Blazer Train

681
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,719
about the Blazer in dot net ten and he talked

682
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,239
about these things, is being quality of life updates?

683
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:33,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, there you go, now.

684
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, staggering. They're just just little quality of life things

685
00:35:39,599 --> 00:35:41,000
improve things ever so much.

686
00:35:41,079 --> 00:35:43,599
Speaker 3: It took years of my life, but it's written away

687
00:35:43,639 --> 00:35:46,199
as quality of life like that should just be there, right,

688
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:50,199
And that's that's how it goes. Yeah, and then one

689
00:35:50,199 --> 00:35:53,079
other big thing, the other thing that we love that

690
00:35:53,159 --> 00:35:55,159
also starts with an A in the dot net world

691
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,000
is as part Yeah, and outside of the dot net world,

692
00:35:58,000 --> 00:35:59,679
Oh no, they're going to kill me if I say

693
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:01,840
dot in contacts with Aspire. No, no, we can use it

694
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,920
everywhere with JavaScript and Python because we went through the

695
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:08,880
whole rebranding. Right, it's for everything, but now it's also

696
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:10,840
for dot at Mawi. You can use it with dot

697
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:12,480
at Mawi. So that's really cool stuff as well.

698
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,400
Speaker 1: If you ask saw your back end services, you're cashing

699
00:36:15,639 --> 00:36:20,320
all that stuff, your telemetry yep, all comes in for free.

700
00:36:20,599 --> 00:36:26,199
Speaker 3: Yep, exactly exactly. So this was I'm definitely not as

701
00:36:26,199 --> 00:36:28,760
good with all the years and numbers as Richard is,

702
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,280
but I want to say we're now to I think

703
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:34,239
it's the end of twenty twenty four or something. The

704
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,679
beginning of twenty twenty five, I was on the road

705
00:36:37,079 --> 00:36:40,679
with Sweatdug and sweeting a conference with Jeffritz who was

706
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,320
also there. We went to visit a customer. We went

707
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,559
to visit a user group as sweatgg session, and he

708
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:48,880
had sessions about aspires. So he would go on and

709
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:52,280
on and on, and I was like, I want this

710
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,719
for AWI. This looks amazing. I didn't know much about

711
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:56,719
it back then, and I was like, okay, this is great.

712
00:36:57,199 --> 00:36:59,760
I was just there in the room and I watched

713
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:01,800
him do his thing, and I was like, Okay, this

714
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,039
looks great, and I'm so bummed out that we do

715
00:37:04,159 --> 00:37:06,920
not have dot at Mauie this story. So when I

716
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,119
got back home, I was like, we need to fix this,

717
00:37:09,679 --> 00:37:12,000
and a couple of people on our team did some

718
00:37:12,119 --> 00:37:14,639
experiments around it, so there was one piece there, one

719
00:37:14,639 --> 00:37:16,719
piece there. I sat down and I just made it

720
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:21,000
work end to end, and everyone started picking it up.

721
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:22,679
Speaker 1: I bet Maddie was the first one you called.

722
00:37:23,079 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 3: Maddie was definitely the first one I called.

723
00:37:25,039 --> 00:37:30,119
Speaker 1: Actually, m she's like Aspire Maui. She knows she walks

724
00:37:30,119 --> 00:37:31,199
the line, right, Yeah.

725
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:34,559
Speaker 3: Well yeah, well then she definitely definitely absolutely helped because

726
00:37:34,599 --> 00:37:36,679
of course, like she came from the Dotted Maui team

727
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,480
now on the Inspire team, so she was the number

728
00:37:39,519 --> 00:37:42,480
one fan, right and that definitely opened doors with being

729
00:37:42,519 --> 00:37:44,599
like hey, on the Aspire team, like you need to

730
00:37:44,639 --> 00:37:47,880
look at this pr because we want to make this happen, right,

731
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,280
So that definitely helped. But yeah, along the light, I

732
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:53,639
think this is also something that not a lot of

733
00:37:53,679 --> 00:37:55,880
people saw the value in until we kind of like

734
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:59,000
put it under their nose because this was like, oh,

735
00:37:59,079 --> 00:38:01,800
this is for district muted, it for micro services, for

736
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,760
web based kind of like solutions. Right, But if you

737
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:09,800
go look at kind of like the Maui documentation, you

738
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:11,480
don't have to anymore because we have a copol it

739
00:38:11,559 --> 00:38:13,440
to do that for you. Now see there's my AI point.

740
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:15,880
But if you would go like a caveman to a

741
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:20,039
documentation page, there's a full documentation page on how to

742
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:23,480
make your dot at Maui app communicate with a local

743
00:38:23,599 --> 00:38:27,480
back end service on your machine. Because what you're doing

744
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,840
typically if you have a regular dotet project, you will

745
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,480
say local host blah blah, it knows where to find it.

746
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 1: It doesn't happen if you're calling from a phone.

747
00:38:35,679 --> 00:38:37,840
Speaker 3: Thank you, It doesn't happen. If you're calling from a phone,

748
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,159
then local host is your phone. The server's not running

749
00:38:40,159 --> 00:38:42,079
on there. If you're running from an emulator on the

750
00:38:42,119 --> 00:38:44,679
same machine, guess what local host is not local host.

751
00:38:45,079 --> 00:38:48,159
If you're running the iOS remote simulator, which is actually

752
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:50,920
running on your Mac hardware, but you have hooked it

753
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,920
up to your Windows Visual Studio, local host is actually

754
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,320
your Mac machine. So all kinds of paths and then

755
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:01,880
I didn't even get started on like the invalid HDPS

756
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:05,039
certificates and whatever, right that you need to trust on

757
00:39:05,079 --> 00:39:07,440
your device on your iOS device, blah blah blah. So

758
00:39:08,079 --> 00:39:10,199
just explaining that to people over and over and over

759
00:39:10,199 --> 00:39:12,000
again was enough reason to kind of like get this

760
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:14,239
as fire thing done because now it will just have

761
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:16,559
service discovery, it will know where the end point is.

762
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,559
It will we are using defth tunnels in between, so

763
00:39:19,639 --> 00:39:21,519
that if you don't know about death tunnels, that's kind

764
00:39:21,519 --> 00:39:24,840
of like your public endpoint to connect to your local machine.

765
00:39:25,559 --> 00:39:28,559
So we go that route, We circumvent the whole HTPS

766
00:39:28,559 --> 00:39:32,400
certificates blah blah blah local host stuff right there, and

767
00:39:32,519 --> 00:39:34,719
it all works. It all lights up, You get all

768
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:37,679
the telemetry, you get all the logging, and that's when

769
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,800
people were really like, yeah, this, I see the value

770
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:40,960
of this.

771
00:39:41,119 --> 00:39:44,719
Speaker 1: So that was great, fantastic. Yeah. I don't have anything

772
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:46,440
to say except thank you.

773
00:39:48,599 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 3: Well it's a little bit rough. It's out in preview

774
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,679
right now, so I'm definitely interested in all of your feedback,

775
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,800
of course, to your listeners if you're going to use this.

776
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:00,199
I definitely need to polish up a couple of more things.

777
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,559
The getting started experience is documented. You can definitely do it,

778
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:06,480
but there's some things to work out. But this was

779
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:08,760
definitely something like, I want to put the first version

780
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:10,920
out there because there is so many ways that we

781
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:12,719
can kind of like go with this, but first I

782
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,519
want to of course verify, like, hey, is this actually

783
00:40:15,519 --> 00:40:19,000
something that people want to use right here? And what

784
00:40:19,119 --> 00:40:20,800
is the next step that we are going to look at?

785
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:23,760
Because yeah, like I said, thinking about this, talking this

786
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:26,280
through with the Aspire team as well, you can you

787
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:29,280
can go a lot of ways, So lots of possibilities there.

788
00:40:29,559 --> 00:40:32,559
Speaker 2: Awesome. So to me, the strength of Maui is always

789
00:40:32,599 --> 00:40:36,800
the Android iOS story, one code base both devices, lots

790
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,559
of respect. Are you getting more love into the Windows

791
00:40:40,599 --> 00:40:44,280
and mac space as well, because this seems like every

792
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,400
stack is good at some but not all.

793
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:53,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, great question. Our supported platforms definitely include mac

794
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:57,719
os and Windows since we went to don ed Maui.

795
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:00,760
So if we're being honest to ourselves back in examine days,

796
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:05,039
the primary candidates were absolutely iOS and Android and then

797
00:41:05,679 --> 00:41:06,519
huge Yeah.

798
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:08,679
Speaker 2: That's which is huge, right, like that to have one

799
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:11,599
code base for both devices is a big deal. Like, y,

800
00:41:11,679 --> 00:41:12,320
thanks for that.

801
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 3: App exactly, and I this is very much my personal opinion.

802
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:18,719
So because a lot of people also ask us like, hey,

803
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:20,760
when are we going to be able to target the

804
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:22,760
web right so right now it's just like kind of

805
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:25,480
like the running on on the actual platforms. When are

806
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:27,599
you going to go to the web. My personal opinion

807
00:41:27,679 --> 00:41:29,840
is it's never going to happen, like unless we decide

808
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:31,159
as a team we're going to do it. I'm going

809
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:32,920
to do it. It's fine. Then I'll love it and

810
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:36,280
I'll be it'll be amazing. But my personal opinion is

811
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:38,760
like we shouldn't do it because already like mobile and

812
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:41,840
desktop that are our supported platforms, and we make sure

813
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,440
that we have the best experience across all of them.

814
00:41:44,639 --> 00:41:48,360
But having a great experience, I have seen little apps

815
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:51,639
that work both, that have a shared code base, that

816
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,639
run both on mobile and on desktop, because you're going

817
00:41:54,679 --> 00:41:58,280
to spend a lot of time. If you just polish

818
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:01,480
the mobile app, run that on the desktop, that will work,

819
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:05,199
but the UI will look horrible because it's all stretched out.

820
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:07,280
You will have so much space that you're not using.

821
00:42:08,199 --> 00:42:10,800
So yes, functionally it works, but it doesn't look great.

822
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,559
So then you're going to spend time polishing that. You

823
00:42:13,599 --> 00:42:15,960
can absolutely do that. The easiest way to do it

824
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:18,480
is say like, hey, of course we have APIs to

825
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:20,599
detect if you're running on Windows, or if you're running

826
00:42:20,599 --> 00:42:22,480
on a desktop, or however you want to go with that,

827
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:24,400
and then you can say you can just swap out

828
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:25,920
full views if that's what you want to do, right,

829
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:27,840
so you can make a design that works for a desktop.

830
00:42:28,039 --> 00:42:30,159
Whenever you run a desktop, say I'm good to serve

831
00:42:30,199 --> 00:42:32,880
that entire view. If you want to find grain that

832
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:34,400
a little bit more, then you're going to work on

833
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,679
the layout level. So we've got all that, but what

834
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:39,760
I typically see is that people will focus or on

835
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:43,840
mobile or on desktop. Now I'm not sure if you

836
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:46,719
were going this way, but I'm definitely are because this

837
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:49,760
is a non technical thing that is definitely a major

838
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:54,920
improvement release, whatever you want to call it. Already a

839
00:42:55,039 --> 00:42:58,760
year ago or a little bit more, we went to

840
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,400
a close partnership with Sinfusion. You probably all know that

841
00:43:02,519 --> 00:43:05,320
because you know they're out there since forever making controls

842
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:08,719
for wind forms and all the crazy stuff Blazer as well,

843
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:11,440
and all kinds of cool things. So they've been out

844
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:14,239
there and they're doing a lot more. But we have

845
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:16,960
found in them a partner that has been helping us

846
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:20,159
out maintaining dot net bowry itself. So they have been

847
00:43:20,199 --> 00:43:23,000
a great help with like hey contributing sixty percent of

848
00:43:23,039 --> 00:43:25,639
the community contributions I think between dot net nine and

849
00:43:25,679 --> 00:43:28,639
dot ten have been by Sinfusion, so that's really really great.

850
00:43:29,519 --> 00:43:29,920
Speaker 2: Wow.

851
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,559
Speaker 3: And they have released like their own open source toolkit

852
00:43:32,639 --> 00:43:34,760
with like I think there are now thirty controls in there.

853
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:37,920
So historically, you know, they're sweetest paid because they're a company.

854
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,079
That's what they pay the bills with, so that's fine.

855
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:43,119
But now they also have like an open source toolkit

856
00:43:43,119 --> 00:43:45,440
that's completely free that you can use with dot net

857
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:48,360
BOWI controls, and they've been super helpful. On top of that,

858
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:51,679
we've also now partnerships with You're gonna be a little

859
00:43:51,679 --> 00:43:54,079
bit surprised if you didn't know about this UNO and Avlonia,

860
00:43:54,519 --> 00:43:56,920
and you're gonna be like, but your competitors, how does

861
00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:01,320
that happen? That would be like a logical question, right.

862
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:04,760
We get this response multiple times, but it's still all

863
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:08,559
dot net, right, and they just have a slightly different focus.

864
00:44:08,639 --> 00:44:10,880
Speaker 2: We just had the you know guys on they love

865
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:14,199
you know, it's all love here, right exactly, We're all exactly.

866
00:44:14,199 --> 00:44:16,000
So I'd been trying to get an Avolonia show for

867
00:44:16,039 --> 00:44:19,280
a while because it's time to recap those guys there.

868
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:21,440
Speaker 3: You go, I know who to talk to. We're where, yeah,

869
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,480
where we'll make it happen. Yeah. So we actually had

870
00:44:24,559 --> 00:44:26,239
a at the top of record, we had just had

871
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:28,559
a community stand up which we do live on YouTube

872
00:44:28,559 --> 00:44:31,639
with the Avolonia people with the progress there. So go

873
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:34,199
check that out if you're interested in that. But yeah,

874
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:37,159
they're all on dot net right, and to some extent

875
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:40,519
they are using our stuff, the examine stuff, the historically

876
00:44:40,519 --> 00:44:43,679
examine stuff, the bindings for like running on Android, for

877
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:46,199
running on iOS. But what they are doing extra like

878
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:50,280
Avolonia has a very different angle, very different view on

879
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:52,159
how to do these things. They follow kind of like

880
00:44:52,199 --> 00:44:55,119
more the Flutter model where they draw everything, right, So

881
00:44:55,199 --> 00:44:58,239
Mawi maps everything to the native control as it should

882
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:03,199
look at feel on iOS, but Avolonia draws everything. So

883
00:45:03,199 --> 00:45:05,920
an entry is not really entry. It's just a border

884
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:07,880
that's drawn that you can put a cursor in, and

885
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:10,400
they build all the functionality of an entry to mimic

886
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:13,079
an entry. But it's just a drawn thing, right, which

887
00:45:13,119 --> 00:45:16,239
is great because it's super performance. It looks pixel perfect,

888
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:18,639
the same across all platforms, but it's just a very

889
00:45:18,679 --> 00:45:21,079
different idea of what MAUI has.

890
00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:23,599
Speaker 1: I want to go back really quick to what you

891
00:45:23,679 --> 00:45:27,280
talked about with web applications and how you're really focusing

892
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:30,639
on desktop and mobile. But at that point, if a

893
00:45:30,679 --> 00:45:32,760
customer comes to me and says, we want these mobile

894
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:34,480
apps and blah blah blah, and we also want it

895
00:45:34,519 --> 00:45:36,800
to be a web application, the first thing that comes

896
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:41,199
to mind is a hybrid application. Yes, and so that's

897
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:44,400
where most of my Maui development is these days, because

898
00:45:44,639 --> 00:45:48,039
that's what my customers are asking for. But I noticed

899
00:45:48,159 --> 00:45:52,760
in the what's New documentation that the hybrid WebView now

900
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:55,880
has a new way to invoke JavaScript, right.

901
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:58,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely so. Lots of investments there as well, So

902
00:45:59,199 --> 00:46:01,400
I just took the high now, right, because all over

903
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:04,079
we have all kinds of improvements on all kinds of areas.

904
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:05,840
This is definitely one of them. I should have mentioned

905
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,559
them earlier. So just to wrap up the little partner story,

906
00:46:08,679 --> 00:46:10,480
this is where this comes in as well, because Uno

907
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:14,000
and I think Avlonia as well, they both have targets

908
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,719
for the web, right, So you can take your investments,

909
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:18,800
you can still share code, it can still be done

910
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:20,280
at and you can also take it to the web

911
00:46:20,559 --> 00:46:23,079
and the big thing with Avlonia is like a the

912
00:46:23,159 --> 00:46:25,679
drawn things and b they can also run on Linux.

913
00:46:26,039 --> 00:46:28,679
So what they're doing over at Avlonia right now is

914
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:32,280
making sure that you can take your MAUI app, make

915
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:35,679
little to note changes, run it on the Avlonia back end,

916
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:37,480
and now suddenly you can also take it to Linux.

917
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:40,199
And we're in close touch with them, like this is

918
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:44,559
like a partnership everything, So we're working together with them

919
00:46:44,679 --> 00:46:47,119
so that they have what they need, we have what

920
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:49,400
we need from them, and we can go all the

921
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:52,280
ways and everyone can be successful. Right, So that's one

922
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:54,840
way to still take it to the web. And the

923
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:57,639
other thing is like yes, absolutely, we have two solutions

924
00:46:57,639 --> 00:47:00,000
for that right now, which is the Blazer Hybrid web

925
00:47:00,119 --> 00:47:03,039
you sorry, the Blazer WebView, I should say, and the

926
00:47:03,119 --> 00:47:06,920
Hybrid WebView. And the Blazer WebView obviously is a specialized

927
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:11,320
WebView for Blazer applications, right Blazer that that you will

928
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:13,760
probably know and love. So you can just plug in

929
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:16,360
your Blazer application and put that in your Maui app.

930
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:19,000
You still have a mobile application, but now you can

931
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:21,360
do it in Razor and then webuis and all that stuff,

932
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:24,639
but still leverage push notifications, the camera that's on there,

933
00:47:24,639 --> 00:47:27,920
the geolocation, all the power of the device. Same thing

934
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:30,320
for the hybrid WebView. But there you can you can

935
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:32,519
go outside of the Donat ecosystem if you want. You

936
00:47:32,559 --> 00:47:35,199
can go and take your React app, your view app,

937
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:37,719
your I don't know what the latest JavaScript framework is.

938
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:39,920
It's just a WebView, so it should be able to

939
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:42,320
run anything that's out there on the web, plug that

940
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:45,320
into a Maui app. And yes, we have like invested

941
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:50,079
in making it easier to communicate between javascripts, so you

942
00:47:50,119 --> 00:47:53,400
can easily more easily make the bridge the connection between

943
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:56,679
that JavaScript application and then going to the c sharp

944
00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:59,440
world to actually do like you know, access the sensors,

945
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:01,880
the camera, c that I all just mentioned through the

946
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:06,400
Maui APIs and that go back to your React application

947
00:48:06,519 --> 00:48:09,119
and then do the JavaScript things there and exchange all

948
00:48:09,159 --> 00:48:12,320
the data and APIs there, so big investments there as well.

949
00:48:12,679 --> 00:48:17,599
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. That's great, all right. So I invariably get

950
00:48:17,639 --> 00:48:22,920
frustrated with Apple. Mostly Android is great and I can

951
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:25,199
do everything I want on an Android in an Android

952
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:29,519
Maui app, But Apple sometimes has these crazy requirements for

953
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:32,800
you know, in limitations for services. If you want to

954
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:36,599
do like notification services just for one that's always been

955
00:48:36,639 --> 00:48:39,519
a thorn in my side. Has it gotten any easier?

956
00:48:39,639 --> 00:48:43,719
And do you have any other issues that you wish

957
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:46,519
Apple would enable or features that you wish they would

958
00:48:46,519 --> 00:48:48,800
make easier for Maui developers?

959
00:48:49,639 --> 00:48:52,679
Speaker 3: Oh my goodness, where should I start? If anything?

960
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:52,960
Speaker 2: There?

961
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:54,599
Speaker 1: They're just yeah, the list is long.

962
00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:58,000
Speaker 3: They're just making it harder. And I'm looking at Android

963
00:48:58,039 --> 00:49:01,199
for this one. So I was building what our team

964
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:04,800
I think does really well go teama is. We build

965
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:07,480
a lot of apps ourselves. Like our manager has like

966
00:49:07,559 --> 00:49:10,480
this whole thing going on where he manages He has

967
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:14,039
a pool and there it goes in like things to

968
00:49:14,119 --> 00:49:17,239
keep it clean and temperatures and whatnot. He has that

969
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:20,519
app forever it has been examined. It's now Maui. And

970
00:49:20,599 --> 00:49:22,960
that's a great example because this is a production app

971
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:25,639
and you know he's trying all the latest feature and

972
00:49:25,679 --> 00:49:27,679
see how it actually behaves in an app that's actually

973
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:31,039
running without too much risk. Right. So I was building

974
00:49:31,039 --> 00:49:32,639
an app for myself and we have a couple of

975
00:49:32,639 --> 00:49:34,360
those of other team members doing that too. And I

976
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:37,599
was building an app myself and I wanted to track

977
00:49:37,639 --> 00:49:40,480
the location this was something you we were going to

978
00:49:40,559 --> 00:49:44,239
walk around the village here and people could sign up,

979
00:49:44,519 --> 00:49:47,199
and we wanted to know to generate kind of a

980
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:50,800
heat map of where people were walking. Very innocent, we

981
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:54,400
didn't have any ill intent with that. So we implemented

982
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:58,159
that with background location on Android. Android nowadays is like,

983
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:00,480
what are you going to do with that back location?

984
00:50:00,639 --> 00:50:04,159
You can send us a thirty second video explaining why

985
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:08,280
you need that, what it's doing, and they decided like,

986
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:11,639
this is not crucial to your app, so gonna you're

987
00:50:11,639 --> 00:50:14,840
gonna have to take it out. I was like, what, okay,

988
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:20,039
So that was really interesting. They're really cracking it for

989
00:50:20,079 --> 00:50:24,039
security reasons, I think so. And it's interesting because the

990
00:50:24,079 --> 00:50:26,800
way we implemented it now, of course we couldn't do

991
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:28,559
it in the background, right. I think that's the big

992
00:50:28,559 --> 00:50:30,840
thing here. If you would do it, you would swipe

993
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:32,840
your app away. You could still do it in the background.

994
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:36,840
So what we did now is like, hey, implement some

995
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:39,239
kind of like signal R or whatever solution, which of

996
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:41,760
course only works whenever your app is into foreground, right. So,

997
00:50:42,159 --> 00:50:45,239
but now doing it that way, it doesn't require us

998
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:47,840
to give us any permissions or whatever, right, So if

999
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:50,800
we would do it like the legal way that Android once,

1000
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:53,519
it would give you all kinds of notices of like hey,

1001
00:50:53,519 --> 00:50:55,880
your background is being tracked, blah blah, So the user

1002
00:50:56,159 --> 00:50:58,960
would be much more aware than how we did it now,

1003
00:50:59,039 --> 00:51:01,800
which was much more cod But anyway, little side ten.

1004
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:06,199
Speaker 1: Android also has a foreground service right, which works like

1005
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:07,199
a background service.

1006
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:08,760
Speaker 3: But I was just gonna say, ye, it's actually a

1007
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:13,800
bit lot more cu but yeah, those things is for

1008
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:17,199
some reason. And also, like you you mentioned notifications here

1009
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:19,960
as an example. One thing that I think and everyone

1010
00:51:20,039 --> 00:51:22,719
with me would want Apple to fix is like the

1011
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:28,480
whole releasing an app certificate proficioning profiles. That whole thing

1012
00:51:28,599 --> 00:51:30,400
is such a mess. No one understands.

1013
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:32,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it changes all the time.

1014
00:51:32,679 --> 00:51:35,679
Speaker 3: It changes all the time, at least into portal. Because

1015
00:51:35,679 --> 00:51:39,039
we had some documentation. We had a great Docks writer

1016
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:41,960
who did a great job documenting all that on the

1017
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:44,800
Microsoft side, and we had people saying like the Microsoft

1018
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:48,159
docs who are releasing native apps, like the Microsoft docs

1019
00:51:48,199 --> 00:51:51,360
are better than the Apple ones. Yeah in explaining what

1020
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:53,480
it does, but yeah, then it will change the portal

1021
00:51:53,519 --> 00:51:55,119
and you have to update it all. So it's very

1022
00:51:55,239 --> 00:51:56,519
very ted is very not fine.

1023
00:51:56,559 --> 00:51:59,000
Speaker 1: I did a series on the dot Net Show where

1024
00:51:59,039 --> 00:52:03,000
we built a dot net Rocks app and deployed it

1025
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:08,360
to Android and to iOS, and it's probably completely wrong now,

1026
00:52:08,639 --> 00:52:12,599
Like you know, the documentation has changed so much, and

1027
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:14,639
you know, I guess you could only use it for

1028
00:52:15,079 --> 00:52:19,639
contextual you know, information, but you have to translate it.

1029
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:22,400
Speaker 3: I will say for that app that I build, Uh,

1030
00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:25,280
this is not It starts to sound like marketing. I

1031
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:28,199
used Copilot and said how do I do this? It

1032
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:30,559
gave me a step by step plan and it worked.

1033
00:52:31,079 --> 00:52:33,639
It gave me a c I script that just worked.

1034
00:52:33,679 --> 00:52:36,000
I just needed to plug in like my apikes and whatever.

1035
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:39,000
I could release it without any issue. So that's your

1036
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:39,840
approachive right there.

1037
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, the new normal.

1038
00:52:41,519 --> 00:52:43,880
Speaker 3: But yeah, that's that's one thing, the new normal, The

1039
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:45,760
new normal, absolutely.

1040
00:52:46,199 --> 00:52:48,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, anything else that you want to talk about. I

1041
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:51,480
see that there's a lot of quality of life updates

1042
00:52:51,519 --> 00:52:54,199
and things like that, things that got renamed and stuff

1043
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:56,800
like that. But I but I think have we covered

1044
00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:57,719
all the major.

1045
00:52:58,199 --> 00:53:00,719
Speaker 3: I think we've covered all the interestings absolutely.

1046
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:01,639
Speaker 2: Well.

1047
00:53:01,639 --> 00:53:03,760
Speaker 1: What's next for you? Man? What are you doing next?

1048
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:04,760
What's in your inbox?

1049
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:08,519
Speaker 3: What's in my inbox? Well, I've got a number of

1050
00:53:09,039 --> 00:53:11,559
events planned, one of which, if we're sticking to the

1051
00:53:11,599 --> 00:53:14,960
Maui topics, is the Maui Day, which is going to

1052
00:53:15,039 --> 00:53:19,599
happen in London on February sixth, and I will tease

1053
00:53:19,639 --> 00:53:21,960
here a little bit that there might be more coming

1054
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:24,719
this year. So that's always a fun thing.

1055
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:26,840
Speaker 2: Maui Days, Maui Days.

1056
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:29,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, So we've been doing that for a long time

1057
00:53:29,079 --> 00:53:33,920
with xamin as well. Way back when was Examon still

1058
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:35,960
a separate company. Maybe I don't know, you had the

1059
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:38,519
Examine Deaf Days. I think they were just acquired by Microsoft.

1060
00:53:38,639 --> 00:53:39,960
That was kind of like an event out of the

1061
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:44,599
box basically, even the agenda was specified for you. You

1062
00:53:44,679 --> 00:53:46,559
didn't have to stick for it to it, but you

1063
00:53:46,599 --> 00:53:48,719
know you could. And we were like, no, no, no,

1064
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:51,360
this is this is too simple, this is too entry level.

1065
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:55,559
There is a need for expert content. So we went

1066
00:53:55,639 --> 00:53:58,760
with and I remember being in touch with Jamie single

1067
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:00,679
than at that time and she's like, no, you cannot

1068
00:54:00,679 --> 00:54:02,800
have examinated in front right, that will be legal issues.

1069
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:06,360
So we went with Expert Day for Examine horrible name,

1070
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:09,119
Horrible name. Later that got kind of like abbreviated to

1071
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:12,239
Exam Expert Day. Still not great, but it's on it.

1072
00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:15,559
And we had it started with like a small meet

1073
00:54:15,639 --> 00:54:19,199
up twenty people, but with deep tive content and that

1074
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:23,559
was with Laurent Bon. He was the first one and

1075
00:54:23,599 --> 00:54:25,519
we did it for a number of years here in

1076
00:54:25,519 --> 00:54:28,199
the Cologne office which is super close to my Cologe Germany,

1077
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:31,239
and we did it there and he was close to there,

1078
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:34,159
so he was there and did kind of like the

1079
00:54:34,239 --> 00:54:36,360
keynote and we had a couple of other people from Examine,

1080
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:38,360
which was really great. We did that for a couple

1081
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:42,480
and each year it grew and these are the the audience,

1082
00:54:42,639 --> 00:54:47,840
the speakers, they are so passionate. It's amazing people because

1083
00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:50,000
it it We always ran it as a free event.

1084
00:54:50,599 --> 00:54:53,400
There was one sponsor which was actually coincidentally sink Fusion,

1085
00:54:53,519 --> 00:54:58,280
so Kudos and they would sponsor lunch and that was it.

1086
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:01,280
The vendue was free. The volunteer were volunteers. They were

1087
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:04,599
not getting paid. But the atentities were coming from Spain,

1088
00:55:05,159 --> 00:55:08,519
UK all the places. Hopefully their boss is paid. But

1089
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:10,880
there was some speakers that were they flew in from

1090
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:14,599
Bosnia at some point North Macedonia like all these exotic

1091
00:55:14,599 --> 00:55:18,199
places almost and some of them just paid on their

1092
00:55:18,199 --> 00:55:21,079
own dime and came there. So that's really amazing. That

1093
00:55:21,119 --> 00:55:24,199
really speaks to I think the great community that examined

1094
00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:26,760
and now also done at Maui has so of course

1095
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:29,599
Examine went away. It all went don at Maui. So

1096
00:55:29,679 --> 00:55:32,679
now we have the Maui Days going on. We did

1097
00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:35,360
in Cologne last year twenty twenty five, we did the

1098
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:38,079
first one in London, which was a big hit as

1099
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:40,920
people love coming to London apparently because we sold out

1100
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:44,039
like in one day and we tried to keep it small, right,

1101
00:55:44,079 --> 00:55:46,599
We don't live stream. That also gives us the opportunity.

1102
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:49,159
David ort now is usually there. I'm there because I hosted,

1103
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:51,480
and that gives us the opportunity to also be a

1104
00:55:51,559 --> 00:55:56,000
little bit more candid, honest, have great conversations with customers

1105
00:55:56,079 --> 00:55:58,639
with like what goes well, what doesn't go well? How

1106
00:55:58,679 --> 00:55:59,960
did this historically happen?

1107
00:56:00,079 --> 00:56:00,199
Speaker 1: Right?

1108
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:02,199
Speaker 3: We can be a little bit more honest because it's

1109
00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:05,360
not recorded. We were all friends there and what happens

1110
00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:08,719
to you stays there, right, So those are always super fun.

1111
00:56:08,559 --> 00:56:08,920
Speaker 1: Very good.

1112
00:56:09,159 --> 00:56:11,559
Speaker 2: Oh we're gonna be at NDC London together. Friend. This

1113
00:56:11,639 --> 00:56:14,280
show covers up just before London. Yeah, there you go.

1114
00:56:14,679 --> 00:56:17,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, Gal, thank you very much. It's been

1115
00:56:17,559 --> 00:56:19,880
a great honor and privilege to have you on the

1116
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:22,000
show and talk about Maui. What's new?

1117
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:25,679
Speaker 2: Yeah? Good to do this more often, my friend, Yeah, absolutely,

1118
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:26,440
I'm always here.

1119
00:56:26,559 --> 00:56:27,079
Speaker 3: Invite me.

1120
00:56:27,559 --> 00:56:30,320
Speaker 1: Okay, we'll do that and we'll talk to you next

1121
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:53,360
week on dot net rocks. Dot net Rocks is brought

1122
00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:56,800
to you by Franklin's Net and produced by Pop Studios,

1123
00:56:57,159 --> 00:57:00,440
a full service audio, video and post production for facility

1124
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:04,000
located physically in New London, Connecticut, and of course in

1125
00:57:04,079 --> 00:57:08,079
the cloud online at pwop dot com.

1126
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:10,440
Speaker 4: Visit our website at d O T N E, t

1127
00:57:10,639 --> 00:57:14,679
R O c k S dot com for RSS feeds, downloads,

1128
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:18,519
mobile apps, comments, and access to the full archives going

1129
00:57:18,559 --> 00:57:21,960
back to show number one, recorded in September two thousand

1130
00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:22,239
and two.

1131
00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:25,199
Speaker 1: And make sure you check out our sponsors. They keep

1132
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:28,440
us in business. Now, go write some code, See you

1133
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:28,920
next time.

1134
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:38,400
Speaker 3: You got jas, middle Vans and