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That's Chumbuck 21 00:00:57.159 --> 00:00:58.039 Casino dot com. 22 00:00:58.079 --> 00:01:01.000 Nope, we're not necessary, daid, everyboy lows your regative eating lab. 23 00:01:11.640 --> 00:01:15.079 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 24 00:01:15.159 --> 00:01:18.200 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 25 00:01:18.239 --> 00:01:25.560 written about them, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 26 00:01:25.599 --> 00:01:29.280 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 27 00:01:29.359 --> 00:01:33.879 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 28 00:01:34.280 --> 00:01:50.840 journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. In this revised, updated, 29 00:01:50.959 --> 00:01:55.480 and expanded edition, the author explores the life of Theodore Bundy, 30 00:01:56.079 --> 00:02:00.000 one of the more infamous and flamboyant American serial killers 31 00:02:00.239 --> 00:02:06.519 on record. Bundy's story is a complex mix of psychopathology, 32 00:02:06.879 --> 00:02:12.120 criminal investigation, and the US legal system. This in depth 33 00:02:12.240 --> 00:02:15.560 examination of Bundy's life and his killing spree that total 34 00:02:15.639 --> 00:02:20.319 dozens of victims is drawn from legal transcripts, correspondence, and 35 00:02:20.439 --> 00:02:26.360 interviews with detectives and prosecutors. Using these sources, new information 36 00:02:26.439 --> 00:02:31.479 about several murders is unveiled. The biography follows Bundy from 37 00:02:31.479 --> 00:02:35.520 his broken family background to his execution in the electric chair. 38 00:02:37.000 --> 00:02:39.759 The book they were featuring this evening is The Bundy Murders, 39 00:02:40.319 --> 00:02:44.840 A Comprehensive History, second edition and Part two of my 40 00:02:44.960 --> 00:02:48.199 interview Kevin Sullivan. Welcome back to the program, and thank 41 00:02:48.199 --> 00:02:52.199 you very much for this interview Part two. Kevin Sullivan. 42 00:02:54.080 --> 00:02:56.680 Well, Hi, Dan, I appreciate you having me back. We're 43 00:02:57.680 --> 00:03:02.080 a great time last week talking about Bundy and his 44 00:03:02.840 --> 00:03:06.400 start of murder in his travels through Washington State, and 45 00:03:06.840 --> 00:03:09.080 it's good to be back to finish the story. 46 00:03:10.280 --> 00:03:12.280 Thank you very much. When we last left off, we 47 00:03:12.280 --> 00:03:15.919 were talking about Bundy now being officially on this list 48 00:03:15.960 --> 00:03:19.479 of one hundred suspects, and he was coming just to 49 00:03:19.560 --> 00:03:22.520 the top of that list, and Bundy was saying goodbye 50 00:03:22.599 --> 00:03:27.360 to Liz and daughter Tina and heading to Utah. And 51 00:03:27.439 --> 00:03:32.080 as you right, he left Seattle September third. However, there 52 00:03:32.080 --> 00:03:36.240 are gas receipts that show that Bundy began his journey 53 00:03:36.280 --> 00:03:41.599 September second. Tell us about his journey September second, and 54 00:03:42.479 --> 00:03:45.599 who he encountered near Boise, Idaho. 55 00:03:47.240 --> 00:03:50.599 Well, yes, and actually I was the first one to 56 00:03:50.680 --> 00:03:57.240 discover on the second right, who is Kendall says in 57 00:03:57.280 --> 00:04:00.599 her books that he left on the third th Writers 58 00:04:00.599 --> 00:04:04.639 have said that he left on in early September, but 59 00:04:04.919 --> 00:04:07.080 I was able to discover when I was doing the 60 00:04:07.120 --> 00:04:10.520 research for the Bundy murders from the gas receipt that 61 00:04:10.560 --> 00:04:14.800 he actually left Seattle on September second, which was Labor 62 00:04:14.879 --> 00:04:21.319 Day that year, And now he would arrive in the 63 00:04:21.399 --> 00:04:25.959 early morning hours, probably around four or five am on 64 00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:30.240 September third. When I was doing the ABC doc, I 65 00:04:30.279 --> 00:04:33.240 actually said that he left on September third. I meant 66 00:04:33.240 --> 00:04:37.160 to say September second, rived on September third, but I 67 00:04:37.199 --> 00:04:39.800 had a glitch there or something. But my book was 68 00:04:39.800 --> 00:04:41.439 the first to come out that he left on the 69 00:04:41.480 --> 00:04:46.160 second and what he did was and since my book 70 00:04:46.199 --> 00:04:48.360 came out and I put this in the second edition, 71 00:04:49.120 --> 00:04:51.680 but there is a really interesting picture. The picture is 72 00:04:51.680 --> 00:04:54.480 not in my book, but there was a picture that 73 00:04:57.759 --> 00:05:02.600 Mary Lynchino took a Bundy on the morning that he left. 74 00:05:02.920 --> 00:05:05.079 And what happened that morning, and I write about this 75 00:05:05.199 --> 00:05:09.199 aspect in the book. Liz called her Angie friend, but 76 00:05:09.240 --> 00:05:15.000 it's really Mary Lynn Chino or Chino, and they had 77 00:05:15.040 --> 00:05:19.600 breakfast or kind of like a brunch on her boat 78 00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:24.519 in Seattle, and Bundy was already packed and ready to go, 79 00:05:25.399 --> 00:05:28.879 and he stood there at his car and she snapped 80 00:05:28.879 --> 00:05:31.120 a picture of him. And it doesn't include Liz or anyone, 81 00:05:31.199 --> 00:05:34.360 it's just Bundy. And what's interesting about the photograph is 82 00:05:34.399 --> 00:05:39.079 that Bundy is dressed in white shorts and white socks 83 00:05:38.360 --> 00:05:42.279 and the tennis shoes and like a polo shirt, and 84 00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:46.360 he looked almost identical to how he had dressed on 85 00:05:47.639 --> 00:05:51.839 the morning of July fourteenth of nineteen seventy four when 86 00:05:51.879 --> 00:05:55.600 he went to like some amish where he successfully abduct 87 00:05:55.639 --> 00:05:58.000 the two woman, one in the morning and one at night. 88 00:05:58.639 --> 00:06:01.720 And that picture has purpose in the last couple of years. 89 00:06:02.199 --> 00:06:05.079 And so I didn't get to include the picture because 90 00:06:05.160 --> 00:06:09.240 of course it's copywriter with with with her and I 91 00:06:10.480 --> 00:06:13.079 but I but actually wrote about it and I added 92 00:06:13.079 --> 00:06:16.439 that to the book. And it's a really you want 93 00:06:16.480 --> 00:06:19.839 to call it a molmost like an iconic photograph. But 94 00:06:19.959 --> 00:06:22.439 then about twelve hours of that picture being taken, he 95 00:06:22.600 --> 00:06:24.959 was murdered of the Idaho hitchhiker. And what happened is 96 00:06:25.920 --> 00:06:31.439 he had one at the end. Bundy said, first of all, 97 00:06:31.439 --> 00:06:37.519 he called Liz from Nampa, Idaho, and Nampa is a 98 00:06:37.560 --> 00:06:41.439 place that they had stopped at before, and so it 99 00:06:41.519 --> 00:06:43.480 might have sparked some fun, you know, memories on them. 100 00:06:43.480 --> 00:06:46.279 And he called he called lives from there and spoke 101 00:06:46.360 --> 00:06:49.959 to her. Within thirty minutes. He was on maybe twenty 102 00:06:49.959 --> 00:06:52.560 two twenty five minutes. He was on the outskirts of 103 00:06:53.680 --> 00:06:57.800 Boise and he noticed the girl hitch hiking. She was 104 00:06:57.839 --> 00:07:01.959 on the on ramp and of the freeway and he 105 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:04.560 had already gotten into a place where there were a 106 00:07:04.600 --> 00:07:07.519 lot of you know, houses in view, and so he 107 00:07:07.560 --> 00:07:13.839 picked her up. He stopped for gas in Boise. I 108 00:07:13.879 --> 00:07:15.639 got to tell you this too. This a guy on 109 00:07:15.720 --> 00:07:19.360 social media. He contacted me. It's this craziest thing in 110 00:07:19.360 --> 00:07:21.680 the world. I don't know what happened to this guy, 111 00:07:21.720 --> 00:07:24.160 but he had no one countered with Ted Buddy. He 112 00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:28.439 told two different completely stories about him seeing Ted Bundy 113 00:07:28.480 --> 00:07:31.680 and Boise and how he's saw Ted Bundy attack the woman. 114 00:07:31.720 --> 00:07:33.399 And then he stood there and had a ten minute 115 00:07:33.399 --> 00:07:37.560 conversation with Buddy. Absolute madness. If anybody hears that out there, 116 00:07:38.240 --> 00:07:40.839 this guy is just it's not true. I just wanted 117 00:07:40.839 --> 00:07:42.639 to say that because he's trying to make a name 118 00:07:42.639 --> 00:07:46.680 for himself now. In any event, he picked her up, 119 00:07:47.439 --> 00:07:49.759 he went to Boise, got gas, and as he was 120 00:07:49.800 --> 00:07:54.879 traveling on in a southeasterly direction throughout the nighttime hours 121 00:07:54.879 --> 00:07:59.959 on I eighty four, he kept her. I guess about 122 00:08:00.079 --> 00:08:02.920 maybe three or four hours and they talked, but he 123 00:08:03.040 --> 00:08:07.600 kept looking and spotting the river like off to his left, 124 00:08:07.639 --> 00:08:12.160 I guess it was. And and he pulled off on 125 00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:15.759 these and I've driven you know, this route from I 126 00:08:15.920 --> 00:08:18.959 eighty four'ts just nothing but freeway now, but back in 127 00:08:19.040 --> 00:08:21.639 bun these days it was partially freeway, and then it 128 00:08:21.680 --> 00:08:24.199 would be the old highway, and then it would get 129 00:08:24.199 --> 00:08:25.959 back on and then it was starting to get as 130 00:08:25.959 --> 00:08:30.079 the freeway. And so he pulled off there, you know, 131 00:08:30.199 --> 00:08:32.480 And and at some point he whacked her in the 132 00:08:32.519 --> 00:08:35.919 head and he dragged her body to where he had parked. 133 00:08:35.919 --> 00:08:39.639 He identifies it as being near again. I think there 134 00:08:39.720 --> 00:08:42.679 was a real world trestle by there, but he probably 135 00:08:42.799 --> 00:08:44.720 was able to pull up really close to the river, 136 00:08:45.639 --> 00:08:49.559 and he, uh, he murdered her. You know, I had 137 00:08:50.679 --> 00:08:53.480 had to have you know, necrophilia with the corpse and 138 00:08:53.519 --> 00:08:56.879 maybe sections he was strangling her, but anybody killed her. 139 00:08:57.039 --> 00:09:00.399 He dumped her naked body in the river, rid of 140 00:09:00.399 --> 00:09:05.679 her clothes, and so you know, that's just that's basically 141 00:09:05.759 --> 00:09:08.799 what he did. Now, he would take he wouldn't get 142 00:09:08.840 --> 00:09:13.200 to Utah into his apartment at bout six five Fir Avenue, 143 00:09:13.519 --> 00:09:17.240 which by the way Liz had found for him, but 144 00:09:17.279 --> 00:09:21.600 he wouldn't get there, probably between maybe four and five am. 145 00:09:22.399 --> 00:09:26.480 And I say in the book that while the rest 146 00:09:26.559 --> 00:09:30.919 of the city was sleeping, that the malignancy was setting 147 00:09:31.000 --> 00:09:33.840 up shop. And of course that's basically what it was, 148 00:09:33.919 --> 00:09:37.000 because as Bundy got into Salt Lake, he was there 149 00:09:37.039 --> 00:09:42.360 to just tell the audience to start law school, and 150 00:09:42.480 --> 00:09:46.720 it was early September and he should have started immediately, 151 00:09:46.799 --> 00:09:49.559 And instead of that, he would spend the next semester 152 00:09:50.559 --> 00:09:53.919 probably only attending about three times, and he spent the 153 00:09:53.960 --> 00:09:58.120 rest of the time hunting and murdering women. So he 154 00:09:58.200 --> 00:10:00.799 had to go to Utah because the he had made 155 00:10:02.000 --> 00:10:06.120 Washington State too much of a hotbed of investigating activity, 156 00:10:06.399 --> 00:10:08.919 and he knew if he was going to continue to 157 00:10:09.000 --> 00:10:11.279 kill women, he would look he would have to look 158 00:10:11.480 --> 00:10:14.600 for a new place. By this time, there was absolutely 159 00:10:14.679 --> 00:10:18.399 no sense in Monday that he was going to complete 160 00:10:18.480 --> 00:10:22.240 law school. It was merely a cover for what he 161 00:10:22.279 --> 00:10:28.000 was doing. So anyway, and he would knuckle down until 162 00:10:28.080 --> 00:10:32.960 after January and spend more time in law school, but 163 00:10:33.000 --> 00:10:37.159 he wouldn't stop his killing even then. But so it 164 00:10:37.200 --> 00:10:40.679 was a progression. The murders began in Workington State, and 165 00:10:40.720 --> 00:10:46.440 they transferred to Utah. And so in September of nineteen 166 00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:50.080 seventy four he arrived there. He would come back to Utah. 167 00:10:50.440 --> 00:10:54.279 He could only move so many things, he would journey 168 00:10:54.320 --> 00:10:59.200 back to Utah. Yeah, I guess he flew back because 169 00:11:00.080 --> 00:11:03.559 he went home to pick up his truck that he 170 00:11:03.679 --> 00:11:06.399 had there. And he had he had purchased this truck 171 00:11:06.440 --> 00:11:10.360 apparently from a friend of his name Alon Boortman, who 172 00:11:10.399 --> 00:11:16.519 was an attorney in Seattle. And he got his brother 173 00:11:16.679 --> 00:11:20.879 Glynn to help him load this truck, and Glynn and 174 00:11:20.960 --> 00:11:25.720 he drove back to Utah and unloaded it, and then 175 00:11:25.720 --> 00:11:28.720 that truck stayed there, even though he had a VW 176 00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:34.080 that truck stayed there, and then Glenn flew back. So 177 00:11:34.879 --> 00:11:39.480 I think he got back September eighteenth. I believe to 178 00:11:39.600 --> 00:11:43.200 check my book to do this loading. I mean, he 179 00:11:43.200 --> 00:11:44.960 may have been there a day or two, and then 180 00:11:45.000 --> 00:11:48.120 he came back to Utah. And I say in the 181 00:11:48.159 --> 00:11:52.840 book that although Buddy was a real planner of murder, 182 00:11:53.519 --> 00:11:56.320 and he would watch women. He would pick who he 183 00:11:56.360 --> 00:11:59.159 wanted to abduct or the area he was one of abduct. 184 00:11:59.200 --> 00:12:03.159 He's watched the patterns of women's movements and things like that, 185 00:12:04.120 --> 00:12:07.159 where the best parked your car so it wouldn't be 186 00:12:07.240 --> 00:12:09.720 seen how far you'd have to walk with the woman 187 00:12:10.600 --> 00:12:13.519 as she walked to the car. It's the best way 188 00:12:13.559 --> 00:12:16.480 to do it so that less people might notice you. 189 00:12:16.960 --> 00:12:18.639 So he was a planner of murder, but at the 190 00:12:18.679 --> 00:12:22.679 same time he was also opportunistic and he would pick 191 00:12:22.759 --> 00:12:25.879 up and go hitchhikers. So I say in the book 192 00:12:25.919 --> 00:12:28.120 that it must have been back then there was a 193 00:12:28.159 --> 00:12:31.360 lot of young girls and you know, young women hitchhiking. 194 00:12:31.399 --> 00:12:35.360 It was just big all over the country and not 195 00:12:35.399 --> 00:12:37.440 so much today, but it was all he just you 196 00:12:37.480 --> 00:12:40.440 would see it all the time back then anyway, So 197 00:12:40.480 --> 00:12:42.440 I say the book that it must have really bothered 198 00:12:42.519 --> 00:12:48.440 him as they passed women who would whiggle their delicate thumbs, 199 00:12:48.480 --> 00:12:51.480 I think, I said, and you know, they just had 200 00:12:51.480 --> 00:12:53.919 to go by them. But if Buddy were alone, he 201 00:12:54.080 --> 00:12:56.679 was taken the opportunity, even in the midst of a 202 00:12:56.759 --> 00:13:00.840 move to commit murder. But he was stricter because of 203 00:13:00.879 --> 00:13:01.720 Gwynn's presence. 204 00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:09.120 You right though that in that September as well, September eighth, 205 00:13:09.399 --> 00:13:13.320 the bodies of Denise Nasalen and Janis Ott were discovered 206 00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:17.759 lying on a hillside near Issaqui, less than ten minutes 207 00:13:17.799 --> 00:13:22.519 southeast of Lake Sammamish State Park, and a third set 208 00:13:22.559 --> 00:13:27.159 of bones was found there with the two bodies. Tell 209 00:13:27.240 --> 00:13:30.879 us a little bit about what Robert Keppel thought about 210 00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:34.840 the Issaquai crime scene and what it yielded and what 211 00:13:34.879 --> 00:13:38.799 they could learn from that crime scene itself. Meanwhile, like 212 00:13:38.919 --> 00:13:42.000 you say, Bundy was on the trip moving back and forth, 213 00:13:42.639 --> 00:13:48.159 and then September twelfth and November he started his killing 214 00:13:48.200 --> 00:13:52.879 spree there. Yeah, so let's talk about what they found 215 00:13:52.879 --> 00:13:54.480 at this crime scene here. 216 00:13:55.799 --> 00:14:00.879 Well, there were a couple of grouse hunters and Elsa E. 217 00:14:01.039 --> 00:14:04.679 Rankin was one and then a fella with him. And 218 00:14:04.759 --> 00:14:08.039 these guys were older. Man. I think Elsa Rankin was 219 00:14:08.080 --> 00:14:10.080 born in like nineteen oh four, and so this was 220 00:14:10.120 --> 00:14:13.159 seventy four, So it was seventy two. They had hunted 221 00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:15.120 there the previous year before. And this is up in 222 00:14:15.159 --> 00:14:22.559 the Assequais Hills now where Bundy had dumped the remains 223 00:14:23.519 --> 00:14:27.679 of Denise Naslin and janis odd. If you look on 224 00:14:27.720 --> 00:14:31.159 a map, there is a it's a perfect area to 225 00:14:32.240 --> 00:14:36.080 dump bodies, but there is a freeway and then there's 226 00:14:36.120 --> 00:14:38.840 a you can take an exit and get on what 227 00:14:39.080 --> 00:14:42.519 is known as the Old Sunset Highway, and that'll lead 228 00:14:42.559 --> 00:14:44.919 you up and then from that direction you can go 229 00:14:45.039 --> 00:14:49.279 up to where you can start rising on the hillside 230 00:14:50.200 --> 00:14:53.559 on what was a logging road. And Bundy knew these 231 00:14:53.600 --> 00:14:57.360 areas so extremely well, and so what he did was 232 00:14:58.120 --> 00:15:02.000 and now we don't know whether he this is where 233 00:15:02.039 --> 00:15:05.600 he kept them, because he told Haymar later that ef 234 00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:07.559 he got Janis out in the morning, he kept her 235 00:15:07.600 --> 00:15:12.799 alive and then did whatever he does with his victims, 236 00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:17.000 and that later the afternoon, in the afternoon he got 237 00:15:17.600 --> 00:15:22.279 Denise Nanslin around four twenty Janis was and then murdered 238 00:15:22.279 --> 00:15:24.919 one in front of the other. And that was all 239 00:15:25.039 --> 00:15:30.480 for psychological torture. Now they were found. They know where 240 00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:33.159 these women were found, along with a third set of 241 00:15:34.240 --> 00:15:38.919 remains that turned out to be george An Hawkins. But 242 00:15:38.960 --> 00:15:43.360 there was no skull found of Janis hot and there 243 00:15:43.399 --> 00:15:49.919 was no skull of George Ahna Hawkins found. But authorities 244 00:15:49.919 --> 00:15:52.720 aren't sure. He might have had them right there in 245 00:15:52.759 --> 00:15:55.559 the same area and killed them, or that could be 246 00:15:55.679 --> 00:15:59.960 where he dumped them. In any event, these grouse hunters 247 00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:05.240 happened to find some human remains, and they went back 248 00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:12.440 to their car, and they they also ran into some kid, 249 00:16:13.559 --> 00:16:16.200 a couple of young fellas I think when was nineteen, 250 00:16:16.559 --> 00:16:19.840 Jeffrey Hartsfield, I believe it was his name, and they 251 00:16:19.879 --> 00:16:23.600 were just doing some you know, shooting, just some plinking. 252 00:16:23.639 --> 00:16:26.480 They weren't hunting or anything. And they got in a 253 00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:31.120 conversation and the one fella, and I think it was 254 00:16:31.159 --> 00:16:34.480 Elsa Rankin, said, you know, there's human remains up there, 255 00:16:34.519 --> 00:16:36.919 and the boys didn't think so at all, and they 256 00:16:36.919 --> 00:16:41.240 were kind of making a joke about it. So but 257 00:16:41.679 --> 00:16:44.159 these hunters knew they had spotted remains, they knew they 258 00:16:44.200 --> 00:16:48.720 had spotted bones. But as they were walking back up, 259 00:16:48.759 --> 00:16:52.039 they spotted something that they had missed, and it was 260 00:16:52.120 --> 00:16:56.879 the detached air of Denise Nathlon and her hair was 261 00:16:57.120 --> 00:17:03.120 jet black and shiny. So here it is a crime scene. 262 00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:06.160 And of course nobody was laughing anymore after this, after 263 00:17:06.200 --> 00:17:09.319 this spot of the hair, and in fact, near near 264 00:17:09.480 --> 00:17:13.400 the hair, not too far away, was what was her 265 00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:19.640 skull anyway, So yeah, it was a stark discovery and 266 00:17:19.759 --> 00:17:24.119 where a lot of remained there, uh so, but still 267 00:17:24.119 --> 00:17:27.440 they couldn't find the head of janis odd, that's what 268 00:17:27.480 --> 00:17:31.720 the official record says. That's also what Keppel has said. 269 00:17:31.960 --> 00:17:37.200 I think Keppel called it's a veritable cash of human remains. 270 00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:41.720 But in any event, they wouldn't know for quite some 271 00:17:41.920 --> 00:17:47.160 time exactly who the third set of of of of 272 00:17:47.240 --> 00:17:49.200 remains were. And of course that turned out to be 273 00:17:49.519 --> 00:17:53.640 Georgianna Hawkins and and and Bundy told him told told 274 00:17:53.680 --> 00:17:56.319 Keple that at the end, and they went back. This 275 00:17:56.480 --> 00:18:00.000 was fifteen years later when when Keppel's getting this connect 276 00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:02.960 so he goes back and he tries to I mean, 277 00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:05.640 Bundy gave it. You know, you can hear Bundy on 278 00:18:05.680 --> 00:18:10.279 the tape. He's trying to honestly try to give directions 279 00:18:10.279 --> 00:18:14.599 of where he buried her skull. He said, on the hillside, 280 00:18:14.680 --> 00:18:20.319 and it wasn't too far from where the main remains 281 00:18:20.319 --> 00:18:24.599 were found. But Keppel said that the the geography of 282 00:18:24.640 --> 00:18:27.559 the land as it were, kind of changed, you know, 283 00:18:27.640 --> 00:18:30.200 maybe erosion and things like that, and they were never 284 00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:35.000 able to locate it. Some people believe that maybe Bundy 285 00:18:35.039 --> 00:18:40.079 lied about that. I don't. He was being exceedingly exceedingly 286 00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:44.359 honest at his end of life confessions. And you know, 287 00:18:44.440 --> 00:18:47.960 even and if Bundy did encounter something, he didn't want 288 00:18:47.960 --> 00:18:51.640 to talk about graphelia or whatever. He you know, he 289 00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:54.359 wouldn't lie about anything, but he would say, well, you 290 00:18:54.400 --> 00:18:56.599 know what, that's a little hard for me to talk 291 00:18:56.599 --> 00:18:59.079 about now, or I'll have to get back with you 292 00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:02.480 about that if it's possible, and that's what he would do. 293 00:19:02.839 --> 00:19:06.119 But he was being exceedingly honest. So I think Bundy 294 00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:10.359 gave acturate directions as to where they could find a skull, 295 00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:13.559 but for some reason they have not been able to 296 00:19:13.559 --> 00:19:16.359 find it. And so, as I say in the book, 297 00:19:16.759 --> 00:19:20.680 that the skull of Georgia Ane Hawkins remains part of 298 00:19:20.720 --> 00:19:23.160 the it's called crime scene to this day. 299 00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:29.480 Let's talk about this acceleration. As you write September twentieth 300 00:19:29.559 --> 00:19:32.640 to November eighth, he abducted and murdered at least four 301 00:19:32.680 --> 00:19:37.359 young women in a six week period. Nancy Willcox is 302 00:19:37.400 --> 00:19:42.519 sixteen years old on October second, from Holiday, Utah. And 303 00:19:42.680 --> 00:19:46.799 Melissa Smith seventeen, who's a daughter. And this is another 304 00:19:47.960 --> 00:19:51.160 even more horrifying aspect of this. A couple of the 305 00:19:51.200 --> 00:19:56.359 people people he targets are police detectives, daughters, and even 306 00:19:56.359 --> 00:19:59.119 a judge she dates. So just add to the horror 307 00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:04.519 of this guy Melissa Smith seventeen and her father's Louise 308 00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:11.119 her father's Louise Smith. Let's talk about Melissa's body is 309 00:20:11.160 --> 00:20:17.119 found in October. Yes, and so tell us what police 310 00:20:17.480 --> 00:20:22.359 find and discover at that in terms of her being held. 311 00:20:23.319 --> 00:20:29.359 Yes, sure, Uh sometimes buddy had a habit of dumping 312 00:20:30.160 --> 00:20:36.319 bodies close to either trails or roads, like Denise and Chancellor, 313 00:20:36.440 --> 00:20:39.880 they were very close that logging road. But but Melissa 314 00:20:39.920 --> 00:20:45.039 Smith's body was found adjacent to the Timberline Subdivision, not 315 00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:49.960 not not far at all from from from houses. And 316 00:20:50.319 --> 00:20:54.319 that's in Summit County, Utah. So when a hunter, I 317 00:20:54.359 --> 00:20:56.400 can't remember the fellow's name, but he's in my book, 318 00:20:58.039 --> 00:21:05.359 found found her. He called Summit County Sheriff Ron Robinson's 319 00:21:05.400 --> 00:21:11.160 office and, uh, you know, reported that there's a young female, white, 320 00:21:11.559 --> 00:21:16.480 young female dead in this in this area, right next 321 00:21:16.519 --> 00:21:23.119 to Timberline Subdivision. Anyway, Uh. Being short on manpower, Uh, 322 00:21:23.160 --> 00:21:26.000 he calls in the help of the Salt Lake County 323 00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:31.279 Sheriff's office and it turns out that Ben Forbes, which 324 00:21:31.319 --> 00:21:35.200 is Jerry Thompson's partner, came out to the scene. I 325 00:21:35.240 --> 00:21:39.400 think the girl, I think Melissa was discovered. I don't 326 00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:41.759 know if it was around two o'clock in the afternoon, 327 00:21:41.759 --> 00:21:46.640 but about four p m. Ben Forbes, Defective Forest was 328 00:21:46.680 --> 00:21:50.400 headed to the scene that the captain of the Homicide 329 00:21:50.440 --> 00:21:54.359 Division there, which is Pete Hayward. He also came out there, 330 00:21:54.519 --> 00:21:57.480 and there was a patrol officer I can't remember his name, 331 00:21:57.880 --> 00:22:01.880 but Forbes I had the report. Forbes, you know, he 332 00:22:01.920 --> 00:22:03.880 did the report, and I say in the book that 333 00:22:03.960 --> 00:22:07.279 they had no idea at that moment who was lying 334 00:22:07.319 --> 00:22:10.599 before them or what a terrible problem they had breathing 335 00:22:10.680 --> 00:22:14.440 down their necks. And at this point you got to 336 00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:16.559 remember that the first one to disappear that we know 337 00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:21.039 of was Nancy Wilcox sixteen, but there was right. But 338 00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:24.599 she's still considered a runaway. I mean, they just don't 339 00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:26.359 know what happened to her. But now here they have 340 00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:32.759 a body and Melissa Smith. When Forbes started keeting at her, 341 00:22:33.799 --> 00:22:36.200 and he said he squatted down and looked at her, 342 00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:39.880 he thought he saw a bullet wound of contact in 343 00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:43.599 her skull, but it was not. She was not shot 344 00:22:43.640 --> 00:22:47.799 in the head. That was the extreme damage done by 345 00:22:48.279 --> 00:22:53.640 Bundy's crovar. He also made a determination because she disappeared 346 00:22:53.680 --> 00:23:00.119 on October eighteenth, and was not discovered on the hillside 347 00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:06.880 in Summit County until October twenty eighth, which you can see, 348 00:23:07.319 --> 00:23:12.720 that's you know, ten days. Yeah, so I'm sorry October 349 00:23:12.759 --> 00:23:18.720 twenty seventh, of nine days. And he said he estimated 350 00:23:18.759 --> 00:23:22.599 the time of death between thirty and thirty six hours. 351 00:23:23.799 --> 00:23:25.440 And I see in the book even if you double 352 00:23:25.519 --> 00:23:30.480 that time, Melissa had to be had to have been 353 00:23:30.559 --> 00:23:37.200 kept somewhere alive, but probably in a comatose state some 354 00:23:37.359 --> 00:23:41.039 time now later at the end, Bundy admitted taking will 355 00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:46.559 Cox to his apartment. Debbie kent to his apartment, he said, 356 00:23:46.599 --> 00:23:50.599 the only other there one day. And I talked to 357 00:23:50.680 --> 00:23:53.319 Mike Fisher about this, and he also believed that Melissa 358 00:23:53.319 --> 00:23:57.720 Smith lived there as well as Laura and Amy again 359 00:23:57.799 --> 00:24:00.319 Laura Amy, and I was going to just we'll talk 360 00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:03.200 about her later, but I'll throw this out. She disappeared 361 00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:07.400 on Halloween night fill with thirty first crossover to no 362 00:24:07.480 --> 00:24:09.960 November first, in the middle of the night, and she 363 00:24:10.119 --> 00:24:12.440 wasn't discovered until Thanksgiving, which I believe was on the 364 00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:15.480 twenty seventh of November that year. She too, had not 365 00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:17.279 been dead that long. And I've seen the crime scene 366 00:24:17.319 --> 00:24:20.640 photos of her, and most people have never seen these, 367 00:24:21.319 --> 00:24:24.480 but I have seen them, and it wasn't that cold, 368 00:24:25.079 --> 00:24:26.960 so where I thought that she was supposing in saus 369 00:24:26.960 --> 00:24:30.079 By anything like that, and she was very pristine looking. 370 00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:34.720 But in any event, so you know, here's Forbes, he's 371 00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:38.680 squatted down, he's he's looking at her. Pete Hayward's standing there, 372 00:24:38.759 --> 00:24:42.400 the officers standing there, and they're they're gathering as much 373 00:24:42.440 --> 00:24:46.960 information he does. Forbes does an excellent job describing the 374 00:24:47.000 --> 00:24:50.319 body and how it's you know, it was laying there, 375 00:24:50.359 --> 00:24:53.000 and of course later they found out, of course it 376 00:24:53.119 --> 00:24:56.480 was you know, Melissa Smith, and we talked about in 377 00:24:56.519 --> 00:24:59.920 the last section. Now she disappeared after leaving the Pepperloni 378 00:25:00.039 --> 00:25:04.720 pizza place, and how Bundy had been drinking at the 379 00:25:04.720 --> 00:25:07.640 same time that she's there, or just a little bit 380 00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:11.519 earlier than that. And Bundy ran into Luis Cannon, who 381 00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:13.759 I interviewed from my book The Bundy Secrets, and she 382 00:25:13.839 --> 00:25:17.039 knew Ted and he was really, you know, he was 383 00:25:17.519 --> 00:25:20.279 not very talkative. It was unlike him and because he 384 00:25:20.359 --> 00:25:24.279 was jump starting himself with alcohol, he said at the 385 00:25:24.279 --> 00:25:28.480 bar drinking and he was reserved, subdued because he was 386 00:25:28.519 --> 00:25:32.599 transforming into that altered state to go hunting for women. 387 00:25:32.839 --> 00:25:35.599 And it was soon after he left the bar. Louise 388 00:25:35.680 --> 00:25:37.799 was there to meet several friends. They went to a table. 389 00:25:37.839 --> 00:25:40.559 Next time she looked over, ted was gone. And so 390 00:25:40.680 --> 00:25:43.279 from there he must have made his way a very 391 00:25:43.319 --> 00:25:48.680 short distance from the bar, which was called William McCoy's, 392 00:25:49.240 --> 00:25:52.319 and that was there's another one there today in Utah 393 00:25:52.799 --> 00:25:54.920 in Salt Lake City, but this is but this was 394 00:25:54.920 --> 00:25:57.160 at the other localcation. It's not too far from the 395 00:25:57.640 --> 00:25:59.319 pizza place. So he made his way over there and 396 00:25:59.359 --> 00:26:02.839 in some former fashion was able to abduct Melissa Smith. 397 00:26:02.960 --> 00:26:07.440 So anyway, so, uh, it's going to be expected. And 398 00:26:07.480 --> 00:26:10.640 of course Jerry Thompson, the investigator, the lead investigator for 399 00:26:11.640 --> 00:26:14.960 most of these cases in Utah, uh, he said that, 400 00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:17.799 you know, he was good friends with Ellis Smith. And 401 00:26:19.359 --> 00:26:24.079