Speaker 1: Wait, the Lucky land Slots. You can get lucky just
Speaker 1: about anywhere.
Speaker 2: It's your captain speaking. We've got clear runway and the
Speaker 2: weather's fine, but we're just gonna circle up here a
Speaker 2: while and get lucky. No, no, nothing like that. It's
Speaker 2: just these cash prizes add up quick, So I suggest
Speaker 2: you sit back, keep your trade table up right, and
Speaker 2: start getting lucky.
Speaker 1: Play for free at Lucky Landslots dot com. Are you
Speaker 1: feeling lucky? No purchase necessary void. We're prohibited by Law
Speaker 1: eighteen plus. Terms and conditions apply. See website for details.
Speaker 3: Hello, it is Ryan, and we could all use an
Speaker 3: extra bright spot in our day, couldn't we just to
Speaker 3: make up for things like sitting in traffic, doing the dishes,
Speaker 3: counting or steps, you know, all the mundane stuff. That
Speaker 3: is why I'm such a big fan of Chumba Casino.
Speaker 3: Chumbuck Casino has all your favorite social casino style games
Speaker 3: you can play for free, anytime anywhere with daily bonuses.
Speaker 3: That's your brighten your day, Lowe actually a lot, so
Speaker 3: sign up now at Chumbuck Casino dot com. That's Chumbuck
Speaker 3: Casino dot com.
Speaker 4: Nope, we're not necessary, daid, everyboy lows your regative eating lab.
Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 5: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every
Speaker 5: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 5: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 5: journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. In this revised, updated,
Speaker 5: and expanded edition, the author explores the life of Theodore Bundy,
Speaker 5: one of the more infamous and flamboyant American serial killers
Speaker 5: on record. Bundy's story is a complex mix of psychopathology,
Speaker 5: criminal investigation, and the US legal system. This in depth
Speaker 5: examination of Bundy's life and his killing spree that total
Speaker 5: dozens of victims is drawn from legal transcripts, correspondence, and
Speaker 5: interviews with detectives and prosecutors. Using these sources, new information
Speaker 5: about several murders is unveiled. The biography follows Bundy from
Speaker 5: his broken family background to his execution in the electric chair.
Speaker 5: The book they were featuring this evening is The Bundy Murders,
Speaker 5: A Comprehensive History, second edition and Part two of my
Speaker 5: interview Kevin Sullivan. Welcome back to the program, and thank
Speaker 5: you very much for this interview Part two. Kevin Sullivan.
Speaker 6: Well, Hi, Dan, I appreciate you having me back. We're
Speaker 6: a great time last week talking about Bundy and his
Speaker 6: start of murder in his travels through Washington State, and
Speaker 6: it's good to be back to finish the story.
Speaker 7: Thank you very much. When we last left off, we
Speaker 7: were talking about Bundy now being officially on this list
Speaker 7: of one hundred suspects, and he was coming just to
Speaker 7: the top of that list, and Bundy was saying goodbye
Speaker 7: to Liz and daughter Tina and heading to Utah. And
Speaker 7: as you right, he left Seattle September third. However, there
Speaker 7: are gas receipts that show that Bundy began his journey
Speaker 7: September second. Tell us about his journey September second, and
Speaker 7: who he encountered near Boise, Idaho.
Speaker 6: Well, yes, and actually I was the first one to
Speaker 6: discover on the second right, who is Kendall says in
Speaker 6: her books that he left on the third th Writers
Speaker 6: have said that he left on in early September, but
Speaker 6: I was able to discover when I was doing the
Speaker 6: research for the Bundy murders from the gas receipt that
Speaker 6: he actually left Seattle on September second, which was Labor
Speaker 6: Day that year, And now he would arrive in the
Speaker 6: early morning hours, probably around four or five am on
Speaker 6: September third. When I was doing the ABC doc, I
Speaker 6: actually said that he left on September third. I meant
Speaker 6: to say September second, rived on September third, but I
Speaker 6: had a glitch there or something. But my book was
Speaker 6: the first to come out that he left on the
Speaker 6: second and what he did was and since my book
Speaker 6: came out and I put this in the second edition,
Speaker 6: but there is a really interesting picture. The picture is
Speaker 6: not in my book, but there was a picture that
Speaker 6: Mary Lynchino took a Bundy on the morning that he left.
Speaker 6: And what happened that morning, and I write about this
Speaker 6: aspect in the book. Liz called her Angie friend, but
Speaker 6: it's really Mary Lynn Chino or Chino, and they had
Speaker 6: breakfast or kind of like a brunch on her boat
Speaker 6: in Seattle, and Bundy was already packed and ready to go,
Speaker 6: and he stood there at his car and she snapped
Speaker 6: a picture of him. And it doesn't include Liz or anyone,
Speaker 6: it's just Bundy. And what's interesting about the photograph is
Speaker 6: that Bundy is dressed in white shorts and white socks
Speaker 6: and the tennis shoes and like a polo shirt, and
Speaker 6: he looked almost identical to how he had dressed on
Speaker 6: the morning of July fourteenth of nineteen seventy four when
Speaker 6: he went to like some amish where he successfully abduct
Speaker 6: the two woman, one in the morning and one at night.
Speaker 6: And that picture has purpose in the last couple of years.
Speaker 6: And so I didn't get to include the picture because
Speaker 6: of course it's copywriter with with with her and I
Speaker 6: but I but actually wrote about it and I added
Speaker 6: that to the book. And it's a really you want
Speaker 6: to call it a molmost like an iconic photograph. But
Speaker 6: then about twelve hours of that picture being taken, he
Speaker 6: was murdered of the Idaho hitchhiker. And what happened is
Speaker 6: he had one at the end. Bundy said, first of all,
Speaker 6: he called Liz from Nampa, Idaho, and Nampa is a
Speaker 6: place that they had stopped at before, and so it
Speaker 6: might have sparked some fun, you know, memories on them.
Speaker 6: And he called he called lives from there and spoke
Speaker 6: to her. Within thirty minutes. He was on maybe twenty
Speaker 6: two twenty five minutes. He was on the outskirts of
Speaker 6: Boise and he noticed the girl hitch hiking. She was
Speaker 6: on the on ramp and of the freeway and he
Speaker 6: had already gotten into a place where there were a
Speaker 6: lot of you know, houses in view, and so he
Speaker 6: picked her up. He stopped for gas in Boise. I
Speaker 6: got to tell you this too. This a guy on
Speaker 6: social media. He contacted me. It's this craziest thing in
Speaker 6: the world. I don't know what happened to this guy,
Speaker 6: but he had no one countered with Ted Buddy. He
Speaker 6: told two different completely stories about him seeing Ted Bundy
Speaker 6: and Boise and how he's saw Ted Bundy attack the woman.
Speaker 6: And then he stood there and had a ten minute
Speaker 6: conversation with Buddy. Absolute madness. If anybody hears that out there,
Speaker 6: this guy is just it's not true. I just wanted
Speaker 6: to say that because he's trying to make a name
Speaker 6: for himself now. In any event, he picked her up,
Speaker 6: he went to Boise, got gas, and as he was
Speaker 6: traveling on in a southeasterly direction throughout the nighttime hours
Speaker 6: on I eighty four, he kept her. I guess about
Speaker 6: maybe three or four hours and they talked, but he
Speaker 6: kept looking and spotting the river like off to his left,
Speaker 6: I guess it was. And and he pulled off on
Speaker 6: these and I've driven you know, this route from I
Speaker 6: eighty four'ts just nothing but freeway now, but back in
Speaker 6: bun these days it was partially freeway, and then it
Speaker 6: would be the old highway, and then it would get
Speaker 6: back on and then it was starting to get as
Speaker 6: the freeway. And so he pulled off there, you know,
Speaker 6: And and at some point he whacked her in the
Speaker 6: head and he dragged her body to where he had parked.
Speaker 6: He identifies it as being near again. I think there
Speaker 6: was a real world trestle by there, but he probably
Speaker 6: was able to pull up really close to the river,
Speaker 6: and he, uh, he murdered her. You know, I had
Speaker 6: had to have you know, necrophilia with the corpse and
Speaker 6: maybe sections he was strangling her, but anybody killed her.
Speaker 6: He dumped her naked body in the river, rid of
Speaker 6: her clothes, and so you know, that's just that's basically
Speaker 6: what he did. Now, he would take he wouldn't get
Speaker 6: to Utah into his apartment at bout six five Fir Avenue,
Speaker 6: which by the way Liz had found for him, but
Speaker 6: he wouldn't get there, probably between maybe four and five am.
Speaker 6: And I say in the book that while the rest
Speaker 6: of the city was sleeping, that the malignancy was setting
Speaker 6: up shop. And of course that's basically what it was,
Speaker 6: because as Bundy got into Salt Lake, he was there
Speaker 6: to just tell the audience to start law school, and
Speaker 6: it was early September and he should have started immediately,
Speaker 6: And instead of that, he would spend the next semester
Speaker 6: probably only attending about three times, and he spent the
Speaker 6: rest of the time hunting and murdering women. So he
Speaker 6: had to go to Utah because the he had made
Speaker 6: Washington State too much of a hotbed of investigating activity,
Speaker 6: and he knew if he was going to continue to
Speaker 6: kill women, he would look he would have to look
Speaker 6: for a new place. By this time, there was absolutely
Speaker 6: no sense in Monday that he was going to complete
Speaker 6: law school. It was merely a cover for what he
Speaker 6: was doing. So anyway, and he would knuckle down until
Speaker 6: after January and spend more time in law school, but
Speaker 6: he wouldn't stop his killing even then. But so it
Speaker 6: was a progression. The murders began in Workington State, and
Speaker 6: they transferred to Utah. And so in September of nineteen
Speaker 6: seventy four he arrived there. He would come back to Utah.
Speaker 6: He could only move so many things, he would journey
Speaker 6: back to Utah. Yeah, I guess he flew back because
Speaker 6: he went home to pick up his truck that he
Speaker 6: had there. And he had he had purchased this truck
Speaker 6: apparently from a friend of his name Alon Boortman, who
Speaker 6: was an attorney in Seattle. And he got his brother
Speaker 6: Glynn to help him load this truck, and Glynn and
Speaker 6: he drove back to Utah and unloaded it, and then
Speaker 6: that truck stayed there, even though he had a VW
Speaker 6: that truck stayed there, and then Glenn flew back. So
Speaker 6: I think he got back September eighteenth. I believe to
Speaker 6: check my book to do this loading. I mean, he
Speaker 6: may have been there a day or two, and then
Speaker 6: he came back to Utah. And I say in the
Speaker 6: book that although Buddy was a real planner of murder,
Speaker 6: and he would watch women. He would pick who he
Speaker 6: wanted to abduct or the area he was one of abduct.
Speaker 6: He's watched the patterns of women's movements and things like that,
Speaker 6: where the best parked your car so it wouldn't be
Speaker 6: seen how far you'd have to walk with the woman
Speaker 6: as she walked to the car. It's the best way
Speaker 6: to do it so that less people might notice you.
Speaker 6: So he was a planner of murder, but at the
Speaker 6: same time he was also opportunistic and he would pick
Speaker 6: up and go hitchhikers. So I say in the book
Speaker 6: that it must have been back then there was a
Speaker 6: lot of young girls and you know, young women hitchhiking.
Speaker 6: It was just big all over the country and not
Speaker 6: so much today, but it was all he just you
Speaker 6: would see it all the time back then anyway, So
Speaker 6: I say the book that it must have really bothered
Speaker 6: him as they passed women who would whiggle their delicate thumbs,
Speaker 6: I think, I said, and you know, they just had
Speaker 6: to go by them. But if Buddy were alone, he
Speaker 6: was taken the opportunity, even in the midst of a
Speaker 6: move to commit murder. But he was stricter because of
Speaker 6: Gwynn's presence.
Speaker 7: You right though that in that September as well, September eighth,
Speaker 7: the bodies of Denise Nasalen and Janis Ott were discovered
Speaker 7: lying on a hillside near Issaqui, less than ten minutes
Speaker 7: southeast of Lake Sammamish State Park, and a third set
Speaker 7: of bones was found there with the two bodies. Tell
Speaker 7: us a little bit about what Robert Keppel thought about
Speaker 7: the Issaquai crime scene and what it yielded and what
Speaker 7: they could learn from that crime scene itself. Meanwhile, like
Speaker 7: you say, Bundy was on the trip moving back and forth,
Speaker 7: and then September twelfth and November he started his killing
Speaker 7: spree there. Yeah, so let's talk about what they found
Speaker 7: at this crime scene here.
Speaker 6: Well, there were a couple of grouse hunters and Elsa E.
Speaker 6: Rankin was one and then a fella with him. And
Speaker 6: these guys were older. Man. I think Elsa Rankin was
Speaker 6: born in like nineteen oh four, and so this was
Speaker 6: seventy four, So it was seventy two. They had hunted
Speaker 6: there the previous year before. And this is up in
Speaker 6: the Assequais Hills now where Bundy had dumped the remains
Speaker 6: of Denise Naslin and janis odd. If you look on
Speaker 6: a map, there is a it's a perfect area to
Speaker 6: dump bodies, but there is a freeway and then there's
Speaker 6: a you can take an exit and get on what
Speaker 6: is known as the Old Sunset Highway, and that'll lead
Speaker 6: you up and then from that direction you can go
Speaker 6: up to where you can start rising on the hillside
Speaker 6: on what was a logging road. And Bundy knew these
Speaker 6: areas so extremely well, and so what he did was
Speaker 6: and now we don't know whether he this is where
Speaker 6: he kept them, because he told Haymar later that ef
Speaker 6: he got Janis out in the morning, he kept her
Speaker 6: alive and then did whatever he does with his victims,
Speaker 6: and that later the afternoon, in the afternoon he got
Speaker 6: Denise Nanslin around four twenty Janis was and then murdered
Speaker 6: one in front of the other. And that was all
Speaker 6: for psychological torture. Now they were found. They know where
Speaker 6: these women were found, along with a third set of
Speaker 6: remains that turned out to be george An Hawkins. But
Speaker 6: there was no skull found of Janis hot and there
Speaker 6: was no skull of George Ahna Hawkins found. But authorities
Speaker 6: aren't sure. He might have had them right there in
Speaker 6: the same area and killed them, or that could be
Speaker 6: where he dumped them. In any event, these grouse hunters
Speaker 6: happened to find some human remains, and they went back
Speaker 6: to their car, and they they also ran into some kid,
Speaker 6: a couple of young fellas I think when was nineteen,
Speaker 6: Jeffrey Hartsfield, I believe it was his name, and they
Speaker 6: were just doing some you know, shooting, just some plinking.
Speaker 6: They weren't hunting or anything. And they got in a
Speaker 6: conversation and the one fella, and I think it was
Speaker 6: Elsa Rankin, said, you know, there's human remains up there,
Speaker 6: and the boys didn't think so at all, and they
Speaker 6: were kind of making a joke about it. So but
Speaker 6: these hunters knew they had spotted remains, they knew they
Speaker 6: had spotted bones. But as they were walking back up,
Speaker 6: they spotted something that they had missed, and it was
Speaker 6: the detached air of Denise Nathlon and her hair was
Speaker 6: jet black and shiny. So here it is a crime scene.
Speaker 6: And of course nobody was laughing anymore after this, after
Speaker 6: this spot of the hair, and in fact, near near
Speaker 6: the hair, not too far away, was what was her
Speaker 6: skull anyway, So yeah, it was a stark discovery and
Speaker 6: where a lot of remained there, uh so, but still
Speaker 6: they couldn't find the head of janis odd, that's what
Speaker 6: the official record says. That's also what Keppel has said.
Speaker 6: I think Keppel called it's a veritable cash of human remains.
Speaker 6: But in any event, they wouldn't know for quite some
Speaker 6: time exactly who the third set of of of of
Speaker 6: remains were. And of course that turned out to be
Speaker 6: Georgianna Hawkins and and and Bundy told him told told
Speaker 6: Keple that at the end, and they went back. This
Speaker 6: was fifteen years later when when Keppel's getting this connect
Speaker 6: so he goes back and he tries to I mean,
Speaker 6: Bundy gave it. You know, you can hear Bundy on
Speaker 6: the tape. He's trying to honestly try to give directions
Speaker 6: of where he buried her skull. He said, on the hillside,
Speaker 6: and it wasn't too far from where the main remains
Speaker 6: were found. But Keppel said that the the geography of
Speaker 6: the land as it were, kind of changed, you know,
Speaker 6: maybe erosion and things like that, and they were never
Speaker 6: able to locate it. Some people believe that maybe Bundy
Speaker 6: lied about that. I don't. He was being exceedingly exceedingly
Speaker 6: honest at his end of life confessions. And you know,
Speaker 6: even and if Bundy did encounter something, he didn't want
Speaker 6: to talk about graphelia or whatever. He you know, he
Speaker 6: wouldn't lie about anything, but he would say, well, you
Speaker 6: know what, that's a little hard for me to talk
Speaker 6: about now, or I'll have to get back with you
Speaker 6: about that if it's possible, and that's what he would do.
Speaker 6: But he was being exceedingly honest. So I think Bundy
Speaker 6: gave acturate directions as to where they could find a skull,
Speaker 6: but for some reason they have not been able to
Speaker 6: find it. And so, as I say in the book,
Speaker 6: that the skull of Georgia Ane Hawkins remains part of
Speaker 6: the it's called crime scene to this day.
Speaker 7: Let's talk about this acceleration. As you write September twentieth
Speaker 7: to November eighth, he abducted and murdered at least four
Speaker 7: young women in a six week period. Nancy Willcox is
Speaker 7: sixteen years old on October second, from Holiday, Utah. And
Speaker 7: Melissa Smith seventeen, who's a daughter. And this is another
Speaker 7: even more horrifying aspect of this. A couple of the
Speaker 7: people people he targets are police detectives, daughters, and even
Speaker 7: a judge she dates. So just add to the horror
Speaker 7: of this guy Melissa Smith seventeen and her father's Louise
Speaker 7: her father's Louise Smith. Let's talk about Melissa's body is
Speaker 7: found in October. Yes, and so tell us what police
Speaker 7: find and discover at that in terms of her being held.
Speaker 6: Yes, sure, Uh sometimes buddy had a habit of dumping
Speaker 6: bodies close to either trails or roads, like Denise and Chancellor,
Speaker 6: they were very close that logging road. But but Melissa
Speaker 6: Smith's body was found adjacent to the Timberline Subdivision, not
Speaker 6: not not far at all from from from houses. And
Speaker 6: that's in Summit County, Utah. So when a hunter, I
Speaker 6: can't remember the fellow's name, but he's in my book,
Speaker 6: found found her. He called Summit County Sheriff Ron Robinson's
Speaker 6: office and, uh, you know, reported that there's a young female, white,
Speaker 6: young female dead in this in this area, right next
Speaker 6: to Timberline Subdivision. Anyway, Uh. Being short on manpower, Uh,
Speaker 6: he calls in the help of the Salt Lake County
Speaker 6: Sheriff's office and it turns out that Ben Forbes, which
Speaker 6: is Jerry Thompson's partner, came out to the scene. I
Speaker 6: think the girl, I think Melissa was discovered. I don't
Speaker 6: know if it was around two o'clock in the afternoon,
Speaker 6: but about four p m. Ben Forbes, Defective Forest was
Speaker 6: headed to the scene that the captain of the Homicide
Speaker 6: Division there, which is Pete Hayward. He also came out there,
Speaker 6: and there was a patrol officer I can't remember his name,
Speaker 6: but Forbes I had the report. Forbes, you know, he
Speaker 6: did the report, and I say in the book that
Speaker 6: they had no idea at that moment who was lying
Speaker 6: before them or what a terrible problem they had breathing
Speaker 6: down their necks. And at this point you got to
Speaker 6: remember that the first one to disappear that we know
Speaker 6: of was Nancy Wilcox sixteen, but there was right. But
Speaker 6: she's still considered a runaway. I mean, they just don't
Speaker 6: know what happened to her. But now here they have
Speaker 6: a body and Melissa Smith. When Forbes started keeting at her,
Speaker 6: and he said he squatted down and looked at her,
Speaker 6: he thought he saw a bullet wound of contact in
Speaker 6: her skull, but it was not. She was not shot
Speaker 6: in the head. That was the extreme damage done by
Speaker 6: Bundy's crovar. He also made a determination because she disappeared
Speaker 6: on October eighteenth, and was not discovered on the hillside
Speaker 6: in Summit County until October twenty eighth, which you can see,
Speaker 6: that's you know, ten days. Yeah, so I'm sorry October
Speaker 6: twenty seventh, of nine days. And he said he estimated
Speaker 6: the time of death between thirty and thirty six hours.
Speaker 6: And I see in the book even if you double
Speaker 6: that time, Melissa had to be had to have been
Speaker 6: kept somewhere alive, but probably in a comatose state some
Speaker 6: time now later at the end, Bundy admitted taking will
Speaker 6: Cox to his apartment. Debbie kent to his apartment, he said,
Speaker 6: the only other there one day. And I talked to
Speaker 6: Mike Fisher about this, and he also believed that Melissa
Speaker 6: Smith lived there as well as Laura and Amy again
Speaker 6: Laura Amy, and I was going to just we'll talk
Speaker 6: about her later, but I'll throw this out. She disappeared
Speaker 6: on Halloween night fill with thirty first crossover to no
Speaker 6: November first, in the middle of the night, and she
Speaker 6: wasn't discovered until Thanksgiving, which I believe was on the
Speaker 6: twenty seventh of November that year. She too, had not
Speaker 6: been dead that long. And I've seen the crime scene
Speaker 6: photos of her, and most people have never seen these,
Speaker 6: but I have seen them, and it wasn't that cold,
Speaker 6: so where I thought that she was supposing in saus
Speaker 6: By anything like that, and she was very pristine looking.
Speaker 6: But in any event, so you know, here's Forbes, he's
Speaker 6: squatted down, he's he's looking at her. Pete Hayward's standing there,
Speaker 6: the officers standing there, and they're they're gathering as much
Speaker 6: information he does. Forbes does an excellent job describing the
Speaker 6: body and how it's you know, it was laying there,
Speaker 6: and of course later they found out, of course it
Speaker 6: was you know, Melissa Smith, and we talked about in
Speaker 6: the last section. Now she disappeared after leaving the Pepperloni
Speaker 6: pizza place, and how Bundy had been drinking at the
Speaker 6: same time that she's there, or just a little bit
Speaker 6: earlier than that. And Bundy ran into Luis Cannon, who
Speaker 6: I interviewed from my book The Bundy Secrets, and she
Speaker 6: knew Ted and he was really, you know, he was
Speaker 6: not very talkative. It was unlike him and because he
Speaker 6: was jump starting himself with alcohol, he said at the
Speaker 6: bar drinking and he was reserved, subdued because he was
Speaker 6: transforming into that altered state to go hunting for women.
Speaker 6: And it was soon after he left the bar. Louise
Speaker 6: was there to meet several friends. They went to a table.
Speaker 6: Next time she looked over, ted was gone. And so
Speaker 6: from there he must have made his way a very
Speaker 6: short distance from the bar, which was called William McCoy's,
Speaker 6: and that was there's another one there today in Utah
Speaker 6: in Salt Lake City, but this is but this was
Speaker 6: at the other localcation. It's not too far from the
Speaker 6: pizza place. So he made his way over there and
Speaker 6: in some former fashion was able to abduct Melissa Smith.
Speaker 6: So anyway, so, uh, it's going to be expected. And
Speaker 6: of course Jerry Thompson, the investigator, the lead investigator for
Speaker 6: most of these cases in Utah, uh, he said that,
Speaker 6: you know, he was good friends with Ellis Smith. And
Speaker 6: when when it became known by the general public women
Speaker 6: were starting to disappear and that somebody had he might say,
Speaker 6: the audacity to have murdered the you know, Midvale Police
Speaker 6: Chief Willis Smith's daughter, a lot of people began to
Speaker 6: realize that really no one was saying, I mean, if
Speaker 6: you have a female in your family, you're gonna have
Speaker 6: to watch her and some people. I even quote a
Speaker 6: fellow in there named Dino Anderson. He was a police
Speaker 6: chief of Balfour, Utah, and he said after the Kent
Speaker 6: abduction on November, he said, I used to think Daubtful
Speaker 6: was a safe place. But you know, he said, I
Speaker 6: can't say that anymore. But but I say in the
Speaker 6: book that police officers, above all people know that any village, town,
Speaker 6: or hamlet, wherever you go, as the possibility to have
Speaker 6: any pure evil raise its head and strike. And so
Speaker 6: most copts would go, yeah, this is a nice community
Speaker 6: and chancel's all. That won't happen again. Like that. Even
Speaker 6: in the book, I put a picture of Email High
Speaker 6: School up and I say, you know, very deep within
Speaker 6: the neighborhood, it was an unlikely place for abduction. And
Speaker 6: that's true, but unlikely doesn't mean it can't happen.
Speaker 3: I think Isaida is Ryan. I'm not sure if you
Speaker 3: know this about me, but I'm a bit of a
Speaker 3: fun fanatic when I can. I like to work, but
Speaker 3: I like fun too.
Speaker 5: It's a thing.
Speaker 3: And now the truth is out there, I can tell
Speaker 3: you about my favorite place to have fun, Chumba Casino.
Speaker 3: They have hundreds of social casino style games to choose from,
Speaker 3: with new games really LEAs each week. You can play
Speaker 3: for free anytime anywhere, and each day brings a new
Speaker 3: chance to collect daily bonuses. So join me and the fun.
Speaker 3: Sign up now at Chumba Casino dot com.
Speaker 4: You'll burginsesses every loss e terms and conditions eight plus.
Speaker 3: Hello, it is Ryan and we could all use an
Speaker 3: extra bright spot in our day, couldn't we just to
Speaker 3: make up for things like sitting in traffic, doing the dishes,
Speaker 3: counting or steps, you know, all the mundane stuff. That
Speaker 3: is why I'm such a big fan of Chumba Casino.
Speaker 3: Chumbuck Casino has all your favorite social casino style games
Speaker 3: you can play for free anytime anywhere with daily bonuses.
Speaker 3: That's your bright new day, Lowe actually a lot, so
Speaker 3: sign up now at Chumbuck Casino dot com. That's Chumbuck
Speaker 3: Casino dot com.
Speaker 4: Bill brigsesses every wherever by loss Ey terms conditions eighting plus.
Speaker 6: So in any event, it really affected people with the
Speaker 6: Melissa Smith murder, and of course that's just that's just
Speaker 6: a second. And he still had he still had and
Speaker 6: amy to snatch down in like South of Salt Lake City.
Speaker 6: And again, as I say, he would grab her. She
Speaker 6: was hitch hiking. Actor Actually, the police believed that she
Speaker 6: was hitch hiking on a darker portion of Highway eighty
Speaker 6: nine and Highway eighty nine runs in and becomes State Street,
Speaker 6: and State Street is a main drag going out of
Speaker 6: Salt Lake City, both north and south. Well, she was
Speaker 6: south down there orum and again she wouldn't be found. Now,
Speaker 6: I believe we can't prove this, but I believe that
Speaker 6: all these women at different times were kept at Bundy's apartment. Now,
Speaker 6: I've always believed that he had them in the apartment
Speaker 6: at least for a time or since they have found
Speaker 6: a cellar now, which I when I wrote the Bundy Murders,
Speaker 6: I was not aware that there was a seller Ashtt
Speaker 6: sixty five First Avenue, because it's to the if you're
Speaker 6: looking at the front of the house, it's in the
Speaker 6: rear but on the side, and it's got a door
Speaker 6: that shuts and locks. Well, people have said that they
Speaker 6: have heard that lived there, had heard that Bundy had
Speaker 6: that was going down there all hours of the night. Now,
Speaker 6: the reason why he could do that and feel like
Speaker 6: he was safe to do that is because that door
Speaker 6: that shuts on top locks, and because he was like
Speaker 6: the maintenance man. He was kind of like the property manager.
Speaker 6: He would show room sometimes and he would cut the grass.
Speaker 6: He had that. But I don't believe he just used
Speaker 6: the cellar. I believe he went up to his room
Speaker 6: cell especially if he was going to keep somebody as
Speaker 6: long as maybe Melissa Smith or Laura an Amy. And
Speaker 6: I've always felt that I felt it would be the
Speaker 6: kind of crime that Bundy would do. And I've told
Speaker 6: people think of the Linda Ann Healy abduction reverse where
Speaker 6: he carried her out of the university district in the
Speaker 6: middle of a university area in the middle of the night.
Speaker 6: He could do the same thing taking women up there. Well,
Speaker 6: here's the thing. He basically comes out and confirms it.
Speaker 6: He confirms it with Michelle Stephen Michau during a taped interview,
Speaker 6: and Michelle's talking about that. He talks about carrying people
Speaker 6: in and out of apartments and basically people could look
Speaker 6: it up. In fact, I've got the quotes from these
Speaker 6: books in my sixth and final Bundy book that's coming
Speaker 6: up that will be released in My publisher told me
Speaker 6: late in November and it talks about this, and so
Speaker 6: Bundy says he just felt basically, he said, I felt
Speaker 6: like I was invincible, but no I could I could
Speaker 6: walk through the walls. So my feeling is this. I
Speaker 6: don't think he'd have kept them in this dank cellar
Speaker 6: for four or five days when he could have the
Speaker 6: comfort of being upstairs. And if he was like he
Speaker 6: said to Michaud, that he could feel like he could
Speaker 6: do anything. It's a in the middle of the night.
Speaker 6: I've been to that place five sixty five First Avenue twice.
Speaker 6: You can walk from the back, or he can park
Speaker 6: the scar on the driveway, carry somebody up the steps
Speaker 6: up to it would take him less than a minute.
Speaker 6: A minute. And we're normal, you know, we're normal people.
Speaker 6: Oh my god. We would never do that, but Bundee would.
Speaker 6: So I believe he kept them both in his room
Speaker 6: as well as the seller. For example, he said about
Speaker 6: the Debbieken abduction, he said only at it one day,
Speaker 6: and in fact, for the sixth book transcribed the end
Speaker 6: of life confession and it's a long one to Dennis Couch.
Speaker 6: So you told them defective And he talks about having
Speaker 6: her up there for one day, so she was probably
Speaker 6: in the cellar idell if he took her up to
Speaker 6: his room. In any event, this is what Buddy said.
Speaker 6: She was at the apartment someplace, and so it means
Speaker 6: that they were there. And so, you know, you got
Speaker 6: to keep in mind in Washington State, he was he
Speaker 6: had a lot that was his territory, and he knew
Speaker 6: what he liked. He knew the forest areas, and he
Speaker 6: could make these kill sites and dumb sites, and that's
Speaker 6: what he would do. He did not know the area
Speaker 6: and nearly as well in Salt Lake City, Utah and
Speaker 6: the surrounding county. That's one of the reasons why he
Speaker 6: spent most of the time in that semester strolling and
Speaker 6: getting used to it. He had been there before because
Speaker 6: Liz and her parents lived not in Salt Lake but
Speaker 6: I think in Ogden, Utah. But they had been in
Speaker 6: Salt Lake. But he got to know the area, you know,
Speaker 6: really well. At the same time, he was not dumping
Speaker 6: bodies in Utah in what they call dump sites, and
Speaker 6: he had at least two in Washington State, the Issacua
Speaker 6: dump site and the Taylor Mountain dump site. So and
Speaker 6: Taylor Mountain would not be discovered until March of nineteen
Speaker 6: seventy five, but they found the Issaqual crime scene in
Speaker 6: September eighth, what we talked about of seventy four. March
Speaker 6: first of nineteen seventy five, they make the discovery of
Speaker 6: Taylor Mountain, which really was the place was to be
Speaker 6: given that later. But where he sequested the heads, he
Speaker 6: probably buried the remainder of the bodies for the Tailor
Speaker 6: dump site there. Some bones were unearthed at Taylor Mountain
Speaker 6: that were later identified to these women, but there weren't
Speaker 6: a lot of them, and so that denotes burial, and
Speaker 6: so maybe some large predators dug parts of them up
Speaker 6: over a period. And but that's at the Tailor Mountain side.
Speaker 6: So in Utah, it's my estimation again that he kept
Speaker 6: them at his apartment and he was bold enough to
Speaker 6: do that. And so then again you have the abduction
Speaker 6: of Laura and Amy and she wasn't found until Thanksgiving.
Speaker 6: I hope I'll announced this right there is that my
Speaker 6: Tippecanos Welcome center off of the Fleaway there and it
Speaker 6: also had trails that you could walk, and she was
Speaker 6: discovered on the morning Thanksgiving morning by two hikers all
Speaker 6: these students there and it turns out that they were
Speaker 6: I guess they looked to the left and they spotted
Speaker 6: what they thought was a female body. They were convinced
Speaker 6: of it, and from then they went back. They made
Speaker 6: some calls. The welcome center may have been shut down
Speaker 6: for people being thanksgi A. You could probably walk in
Speaker 6: and walk out, you know, ease the restaurant or whatever,
Speaker 6: but they probably have to go to a phone and call.
Speaker 6: And that's when they brought And again I've seen the
Speaker 6: crime scene photos. I'll tell you that something the most
Speaker 6: stark photo. You know, Bundy had done what he always
Speaker 6: almost always did. He would strangle them from behind while
Speaker 6: he's having sex with them. And the picture of Amy
Speaker 6: when you look at that picture of the main picture,
Speaker 6: an up close shot of her where her tongue is
Speaker 6: protruding from her mouth because of the strangulation. When you
Speaker 6: look at the autops reports, I mean the people doing
Speaker 6: autops report, they're very thorough, like you know, you know
Speaker 6: the doctor is doing that or just like the detective.
Speaker 6: They haven't described these crime scene they just don't leave
Speaker 6: anything out. And when I read the autopsy reports, because
Speaker 6: I don't have the picture, they were shown to me
Speaker 6: by Jim man See, who had gotten them from Wrong Holmes.
Speaker 6: And uh, if I knew I was going to be
Speaker 6: writing about Bundy one day, this is what I did.
Speaker 6: I would have made copies of not just those pictures.
Speaker 6: But but I've read all the letters that Bundy had
Speaker 6: sent to Ron Holmes and all the homes at home.
Speaker 6: All the letters at home sent to Bundy are now
Speaker 6: with Bob Keppel and his stuff. Okay, but nobody really
Speaker 6: has read these other letters. And I was able to
Speaker 6: read them one night because of Jim Massey, And yeah,
Speaker 6: they were interesting. But if I don't know I was
Speaker 6: going to write a book on Bundy, I was a
Speaker 6: copy of them arow. But in any event, the pictures
Speaker 6: of Law are stark. But he said, close shots it
Speaker 6: shows a woman. I'm talking about all this to let
Speaker 6: you know she hasn't been dead very long at all.
Speaker 6: And uh, of course that's why investigators think that she
Speaker 6: was kept alive somewhere, and they used to look for
Speaker 6: I remember when I was doing research for one of
Speaker 6: the books, I think it was The Bundy Secrets, somebody
Speaker 6: was on a tangent that I knew, looking for cabins
Speaker 6: where he might have Bundy might have kept victims in
Speaker 6: Utahim said, listen to stop because he's already. Have you
Speaker 6: not heard the Dennis Couch confession that said, no, I
Speaker 6: said there it is. He said, I took debrahat back
Speaker 6: to my apartment. You know what he meant at the
Speaker 6: top sixty five first even it and Couch confirmed that.
Speaker 6: So so you know, until you know, you don't know.
Speaker 6: But in that case, I was able to help this
Speaker 6: one of those saying you're really going down the wrong
Speaker 6: line there because you're not going to find the cabin.
Speaker 6: He took them home, and so it's interesting. We can't
Speaker 6: prove that he had them in the apartment. We can't
Speaker 6: even prove he had them in the cellar, but we
Speaker 6: know he did and from what Bundy told Michell, he
Speaker 6: absolutely took them up to his apartment. You know. Anyway,
Speaker 6: it's an interesting, interesting thing. I mean, this is the
Speaker 6: guy Bundy that would do things that nobody believed were
Speaker 6: possible or would be possible. I mean, when we think
Speaker 6: we're normal people, and when a normal person thinks about
Speaker 6: abduction and murder, they automatically start thinking in terms of
Speaker 6: how they would do it. But they're handicapped by their
Speaker 6: own normalness as it were, they're thinking in terms of
Speaker 6: normal and how they would do it. Bundy was anything
Speaker 6: but normal. And Bundy would get a great rush of
Speaker 6: doing things practically, sometimes right out in front of people.
Speaker 6: And so you know what he told, you know, Michelle,
Speaker 6: about how he did this and how he thought about
Speaker 6: himself as he was doing it explains why people like
Speaker 6: that cycle paths can do these things. When a normal
Speaker 6: person would think about doing it, they'd go, oh my gosh,
Speaker 6: I would never do that. I would do it another way.
Speaker 6: And of course the other abduction, of course, was a
Speaker 6: Deborah Kent and of course that happened on November eight,
Speaker 6: and that is the same night Carol d Ranch that
Speaker 6: he had to have spotted coming onto the Fashion Place
Speaker 6: mall in Marie, Utah the property driving her. I think
Speaker 6: it was a yellow Camaro. I even read I think
Speaker 6: it was yellow. I'm not sure. I can't remember, but
Speaker 6: it was a Camaro. And then he went up to
Speaker 6: her and did his officer rolls one thing, and you know,
Speaker 6: somebody tried to break it. And you have a Camaro
Speaker 6: and somebody tried to break in the car. Can you
Speaker 6: follow me? And so she did out of the car.
Speaker 6: Interesting thing happened there too, because the car was locked.
Speaker 6: She knew she locked it. He said, is there anything
Speaker 6: looking missing? He said no, and then he goes, you know,
Speaker 6: could you unlock the car and get in? And that's
Speaker 6: an interesting thing because she refused. And it's a good
Speaker 6: thing she did, because I have a sneaking suspicion Bundy
Speaker 6: was going to waylay her in her own car in
Speaker 6: some way, do something to her and then maybe take
Speaker 6: off in her car. We don't know, but it was
Speaker 6: odd that he said, could you get in? This is
Speaker 6: her car. She didn't do it, and she was one
Speaker 6: that always wanted to obey authority, but she would disobey
Speaker 6: authority on this night and twice and this was the
Speaker 6: first time. So then he goes back into the mall.
Speaker 6: He said, well, my partner's holding a suspect, so we'll
Speaker 6: go back into the mall. He said, oh, he's not here.
Speaker 6: They must have walked across the street. Of course, I've
Speaker 6: walked this. And then you go out on the other
Speaker 6: side of the doors, and he crossed the side of
Speaker 6: the parking lot. State Street is on your left. As
Speaker 6: you do this, and then you go across the little
Speaker 6: side street and right in front of there it's a
Speaker 6: cleaners and longer mat but they have a side door
Speaker 6: and that side door is marked one thirty nine. Well,
Speaker 6: I can tell you now that Bundy had all of
Speaker 6: this stuff already going in his head on what he
Speaker 6: was going to do, and he had to have pre
Speaker 6: checked that that door would be locked. So he walks
Speaker 6: up to the door and his Volkswagon. She doesn't he
Speaker 6: didn't even tell her this yet, that his Volkswagging is
Speaker 6: sitting off to the right on that little road that
Speaker 6: they just crossed, down about maybe twenty thirty feet maybe
Speaker 6: twenty feet, probably not more than twenty. And so he
Speaker 6: goes up and he tried the door one thirty nine
Speaker 6: on the side of the build, and I've got a
Speaker 6: picture of it in the book, and it's locked. Of
Speaker 6: course he knows it's locked. He said, well, listen, I've
Speaker 6: got I'd like you to fall. I'd like you to
Speaker 6: come with me to go to the MURRAYPD which she
Speaker 6: knew was going to be. You got to go straight
Speaker 6: and hit State Street and then State Street and then
Speaker 6: follow it. She said, okay, she said, you have a
Speaker 6: badge or something that I could see just in case,
Speaker 6: and she's already talked about she would tell her how
Speaker 6: Anthony was, how well addressed he was. He kind of condescended.
Speaker 6: We kind of laughed at her for asking for a badge,
Speaker 6: which no real cop would do. It's absolutely in fact,
Speaker 6: he'd presented the badge immediately. So he presented his badge,
Speaker 6: but he didn't really let her look at it long.
Speaker 6: So he gets into the volks Volkswagen. He puts her
Speaker 6: in a pastor seat and he asked.
Speaker 4: Her to.
Speaker 6: I think he asked her to buckle up and she
Speaker 6: said no, so I guess he locked the door. And
Speaker 6: then instead of going straight to State Street, he starts
Speaker 6: to call puts it in area had a shift. He
Speaker 6: turns the wheel all the way to the left, and
Speaker 6: he does a U turn right there in this side street.
Speaker 6: He heads down about half a block, comes to the
Speaker 6: stop sign. I don't know what it was called, Ben,
Speaker 6: but when I was there in twenty two thousand and
Speaker 6: six to do my research on the Bundy Mirras, it
Speaker 6: was Fashion Boulevard. That might have been the name of then,
Speaker 6: but it may not have been. In any event, he
Speaker 6: takes a left of Fashion boulevard and he goes down
Speaker 6: not more than a block block and a half and
Speaker 6: he pulls alongside. And they got to remember this is
Speaker 6: around oh, seven point thirty. It got dark there about
Speaker 6: five fifteen five thirty, so it's nighttime. It's slightly drizzling,
Speaker 6: and he pulls up in front of the bus area
Speaker 6: where the buses would pull up to the McMillan Elementary School,
Speaker 6: and he would uh, and he stopped the vehicle. Uh.
Speaker 6: Carrol later said that he ran his car up on
Speaker 6: the wheels, the right wheels accidentally up on the like
Speaker 6: the curve there, and came back down and he immediately
Speaker 6: attacks her. Okay, she thinks he has a gun, she's
Speaker 6: the prosecutor later told me that he never used weapons
Speaker 6: like that, so we're not sure about it. Plus, she
Speaker 6: could never identify whether it was a revolver or an automatic.
Speaker 6: And you know, unless it was a flint lock, that's
Speaker 6: all there is, automatics or which is really a semi automatic.
Speaker 6: It's either that or it's or it's it's a revolver.
Speaker 6: So but so the prosecutor is a little skeptical that
Speaker 6: Bundy had a gun, but she started fighting with him,
Speaker 6: and he went to get her the handcuffs on the
Speaker 6: right wrist, and he got one on and then in
Speaker 6: the fight he made a mistake and got them on
Speaker 6: the second. Now Carol didn't even remember this. Cheryl thinks
Speaker 6: he left one of them dangling. He did not. That's
Speaker 6: what she said on the Netflix stock That is incorrect.
Speaker 6: So I published her report at the Murray PD. And
Speaker 6: she got there. She was once she got away from body,
Speaker 6: and she knew he was trying to knock the heck
Speaker 6: out of her with a clow bar. She splotting hard.
Speaker 6: That's the only reason why she survived. And she jumped
Speaker 6: out of the car and it was car lights coming
Speaker 6: down the road and there was an old couple, Wilbur
Speaker 6: and Mary Walsh, and they picked her up and took
Speaker 6: her to the Murray PD. Well, they walked her into
Speaker 6: the PD. First thing they did they set her down,
Speaker 6: and they saw and made the report that both tuffs
Speaker 6: were attached to the right wrist, and they even named
Speaker 6: the detective who removed them. So she just can't remember,
Speaker 6: you know, just and that happens with a It's been
Speaker 6: forty years, you know. So anyway, so she gets in there,
Speaker 6: she tells what she knows, and of course Bundy, he's
Speaker 6: half in and half out of this altered state of murder.
Speaker 6: So what does he do? He goes jumps in the car.
Speaker 6: He remembers the brochure that he had picked up a
Speaker 6: couple of weeks earlier in Bountiful, Utah, from where he
Speaker 6: also got gas, and he had been at the recreation
Speaker 6: center and there was a there was a grochure there
Speaker 6: and talked about to play the Redhead that would be
Speaker 6: showing on that Friday night of November eight. So he,
Speaker 6: you know, he's he's not going to go home without
Speaker 6: a victim. He's halfway in and out of this altered
Speaker 6: state of murder. So he heads to the neighborhood. He
Speaker 6: eventually jumps on I fifteen going north. He makes it
Speaker 6: the Bountiful there's a girl in the parking lot. He tries.
Speaker 6: Most of the people are inside. It's an auditorium that
Speaker 6: holds like fifteen hundred people, but there's a couple of
Speaker 6: people knowing about it. And let me try to get
Speaker 6: a girl to follow him from there. She said no,
Speaker 6: and then that was it. So Bundy goes inside. He
Speaker 6: exposes himself that he's fifteen hundred people, and he uh
Speaker 6: a lot of people out in the main area because
Speaker 6: you go on the front doors and then you got
Speaker 6: a big hallway and then you've got the on the
Speaker 6: toorium is on the you know, past a little hallway
Speaker 6: right there. It's right there, and you could all the
Speaker 6: doors were open, so he could see the huge crowd there,
Speaker 6: but there was also lots of people in like the
Speaker 6: foyer area, and so he makes an impression there, but
Speaker 6: he doesn't seem to be bothered by it. And of
Speaker 6: course the play runs late. Call these little circumstances that happens.
Speaker 6: The playe runs late. And one family at the play
Speaker 6: were the Kents, and Debbie was a you know there
Speaker 6: she was she she had seen the plane, but she
Speaker 6: wanted but she wanted to see it again. The parents
Speaker 6: were wanting to see it. Her father, Dean Kent, had
Speaker 6: just recovered from a heart in the process of recovering
Speaker 6: from an art attack, you can imagine that, and that's
Speaker 6: his first night out. They're city on the left side
Speaker 6: of the auditorium, about maybe eight or ten seats down
Speaker 6: from the back of the auditorium. Running along the back
Speaker 6: of the auditorium is a brick half wall, and then
Speaker 6: you have your main area for foot traffic, and then
Speaker 6: there is a you know, large wall that that in
Speaker 6: cases the auditorium, and then you get out through your
Speaker 6: little exits from that into the foyer, or you can
Speaker 6: exit the building on the east or west exits on
Speaker 6: both sides. Okay, so Bundy is doing he's acting weird
Speaker 6: that people. He's trying to get different women to go
Speaker 6: with him. He can't. He ends up being on that
Speaker 6: western portion or that left portion of the auditorium, and
Speaker 6: people later identified Buddy as being leaning on the half wall.
Speaker 6: He kind of split his time from leaning on that
Speaker 6: half wall and the back wall. And because the play
Speaker 6: ran late, Debbie decided to leave so that the parents
Speaker 6: would miss the play and pick the family car and
Speaker 6: pick up one of her brothers at a roller rink.
Speaker 6: They said they'd be there like around ten o'clock and
Speaker 6: the place should have been over, but it late getting started.
Speaker 6: So the last thing that Belvicant, the mom said was
Speaker 6: be careful, deb and hurry back. And what happens is
Speaker 6: she goes out the western side of the doors. Ivid
Speaker 6: did a I mean I was in there in two
Speaker 6: thousand and six, took photographs of all these areas, but
Speaker 6: I went back to do additional research for the Trail
Speaker 6: of Dead Body. The school was closed. I couldn't go inside,
Speaker 6: but I did a video outside of the school explaining
Speaker 6: all this so people can see that that's online. But
Speaker 6: she came out in the side doors.
Speaker 7: Yes, we're gonna have to stop for a second to
Speaker 7: talk about a sponsor, which is Ritual. We deserve to
Speaker 7: know what we're putting in our bodies and why. That's
Speaker 7: why Ritual's founder is on a mission to reinvent the
Speaker 7: vitamin industry. Ritual has left out mystery additives, synthetic fillers,
Speaker 7: and shady extras that can be found in some traditional multivitamins,
Speaker 7: and they're committed to showing you their nutrients, where it
Speaker 7: came from, and why they chose it. They call it traceability.
Speaker 7: My wife Lisa the side to try Ritual about five
Speaker 7: months ago because of their claims to be a much
Speaker 7: better multivitamin for women. Lisa read all of the information
Speaker 7: about Ritual Essential for Women and was confident from that
Speaker 7: point that Ritual was a much different and better multivitamin.
Speaker 7: She continues to feel confident in what Ritual Essentials for
Speaker 7: Women is doing to contribute to her overall health every day.
Speaker 7: For obsessive label readers, Ritual uses vegan certified, non GMO,
Speaker 7: gluten free, and allergen free ingredients, and their sources are
Speaker 7: out there for the whole world to see because they
Speaker 7: believe you deserve to know what you're putting in your
Speaker 7: body and why forty percent of women cannot properly utilize
Speaker 7: the synthetic form of folate fullic acid, which can be
Speaker 7: found in many multivitamins. This is why Ritual uses folate
Speaker 7: in its absorbable form to help cover women's needs. Daily
Speaker 7: changes can lead to big results, So star small Today,
Speaker 7: Ritual is offering my listeners ten percent off your first
Speaker 7: three months try it out, satisfaction guaranteed. Go to ritual
Speaker 7: dot com slash murder to start your ritual today. That's
Speaker 7: ten percent off during your first three months at ritual
Speaker 7: dot com slash murder. So sorry to interrupt you, Kevin.
Speaker 7: We were we problem right in the middle. We were
Speaker 7: right in the middle of this abduction of Deborah Kent
Speaker 7: with her parents at this play in this little high school.
Speaker 7: Continue with what Bundy is able to do even though
Speaker 7: he's seen by many people it at this auditorium that night.
Speaker 7: What does he what does he end up doing? What
Speaker 7: happens with Debora Kent?
Speaker 6: So I was saying. Deborah Kent, she want to spare
Speaker 6: her parents from missing the place, so she decides to
Speaker 6: go pick up one of her brothers at a local
Speaker 6: roller rank. So she goes out the doors of the auditorium,
Speaker 6: which leads straight out. Instead of going out the front door,
Speaker 6: she goes out the doors on which were on the
Speaker 6: left of the auditorium, and that led her out into
Speaker 6: the western parking lot. Bundy sees this. Now Bundy could
Speaker 6: have absolutely gone the same way. He could have absolutely
Speaker 6: gone and gotten to her quicker going that way. Instead
Speaker 6: of that, he hurries back in the opposite direction, goes
Speaker 6: out the front exit, then goes through the main doors,
Speaker 6: and then he's really trying to pick up some speed
Speaker 6: while he goes down the sidewalk area. He doesn't realize it,
Speaker 6: but in doing so, he must have been going for
Speaker 6: his keys or something, because he dropped the handcuff key
Speaker 6: and that would be found by Iran Fields people the
Speaker 6: next day. So he catches up with her and now, yeah,
Speaker 6: you remember it's dark, it's close to ten o'clock probably
Speaker 6: isn't raining anymore. There's no people out in the parking
Speaker 6: lot because the play is not over. There are apartments
Speaker 6: across the street from the school and some houses next
Speaker 6: to the school, and a number of people came forward
Speaker 6: later later and said they heard a hot pitched scream
Speaker 6: coming from the parking lot, and one person said followed
Speaker 6: but maybe I think somebody said maybe there was like
Speaker 6: a second scream, but we know there was at least
Speaker 6: one scream. And what happened is but Bundy, what he
Speaker 6: most likely did was and he didn't have to have
Speaker 6: to get in this car, for he probably all replaced
Speaker 6: his crowbar behind underneath his car, and he must have
Speaker 6: just as Debby was trying to get into a car,
Speaker 6: he was able to attack her, strike her and overwhelm her.
Speaker 6: And he must have hit her quite hard, and he
Speaker 6: knew that she would be out for some time. What
Speaker 6: he didn't do was throw her into the car and
Speaker 6: leave immediately. He put her in the car, you know,
Speaker 6: and he he just probably threw a blanket over her
Speaker 6: and he went back inside. Now, until this occurred, anybody
Speaker 6: who had seen Monday prior to this, like the drama teacher,
Speaker 6: Raylan Shepherd, who tried to get you know, rail In
Speaker 6: to go out with him to quote identify a car
Speaker 6: in the parking lot unquote, so you know, he was
Speaker 6: acting like a police officer again and she wouldn't do it.
Speaker 6: She saw him the last time after this had happened
Speaker 6: to Debbie, but she didn't know it, and instead of
Speaker 6: being like well dressed and and his normal self as
Speaker 6: she had been before, she and some other people said
Speaker 6: that he was winded. His shirttail, one of the shirttails
Speaker 6: was hanging out. It just looked like a kind of
Speaker 6: like a mess. Well, nobody really talked about that before,
Speaker 6: but my theory was this, after he abducted her, you
Speaker 6: know it, you know, he had to whack her, he
Speaker 6: had to struggle with her, he had to knock her out,
Speaker 6: and then he had to lift her body into his car,
Speaker 6: which left him winded, which left him with his one
Speaker 6: of the shirttails hanging out. And I think the reason
Speaker 6: why he did that is to at least present somewhat
Speaker 6: of an alibi that people had seen him there before
Speaker 6: Kent left and after Kent left. And because that's the
Speaker 6: only thing that we can think why he did that
Speaker 6: for there would be no reason to go back in there. Also,
Speaker 6: somebody reported not at the time of the screen, but
Speaker 6: at a time factor that would be later than around
Speaker 6: when the scream will have occurred. Uh a, but still
Speaker 6: with nobody else really out in the parking lot, a
Speaker 6: Volkswagen take off a rather high speed, and of course
Speaker 6: that would be Bundy getting out of there. In fact, Bundy,
Speaker 6: when people noticed him looking winded in the shirt tail out,
Speaker 6: he actually tried to instead of along the half wall,
Speaker 6: leaning on the half way the back, he actually sat
Speaker 6: in an empty seat. And when Bundy saw Raylan Shepherd
Speaker 6: staring at him and pointing out to her husband this guy,
Speaker 6: that unnerved him. And so that's when he got up
Speaker 6: and left. And I also talk about there's an odd
Speaker 6: coincidence that happened that without knowing it, Bundley had rubbed
Speaker 6: shoulders with a future victim because in that conference or
Speaker 6: I'm sorry, in that play the Redhead on if you
Speaker 6: want to high school on November.
Speaker 3: Hey, guys, it is a Ryan. I'm not sure if
Speaker 3: you know this about me, but I'm a bit of
Speaker 3: a fun fanatic when I can. I like to work,
Speaker 3: but I like fun too. It's a thing, and now
Speaker 3: the truth is out there, I can tell you about
Speaker 3: my favorite place to have fun, Chumba Casino. They have
Speaker 3: hundreds of social casino style games to choose from, with
Speaker 3: new games released each week. You can play for free anytime, anywhere,
Speaker 3: and each day brings a new chance to collect daily bonuses.
Speaker 3: So join me and the fun. Sign up now at
Speaker 3: Chumba Casino dot com.
Speaker 4: No, we're just necessary where I lost the Terms Conditions
Speaker 4: eighteen plus.
Speaker 1: With the Lucky Lands Suns, you can get lucky just
Speaker 1: about anywhere.
Speaker 2: It's your captain speaking. We've got clear runway and the
Speaker 2: weather's fine, but we're just gonna circle up here a
Speaker 2: while and get lucky. No, no, nothing like that. It's
Speaker 2: just these cash prizes add up quick. So I suggest
Speaker 2: you sit back, keep your trade table up right, and
Speaker 2: start getting lucky.
Speaker 1: Pay for free at Lucky Landslides dot com. Are you
Speaker 1: feeling lucky? No purchase necessary void. We're prohibited by Law
Speaker 1: eighteen plus terms and conditions applying. See website for details.
Speaker 6: Break of nineteen seventy four It was a girl called
Speaker 6: named Susan Curtis, and she would be Bundy's future victim.
Speaker 6: That he would get later. She went to a balliful
Speaker 6: youth conference, yes, at Brigham Young University, and this was
Speaker 6: for like high school kids. They had a youth conference
Speaker 6: there and that was you know, and that's located down
Speaker 6: in Ogden, Utah. In fact, Susan had ridden with her
Speaker 6: friends on a two day bike ride from up and
Speaker 6: Balifful down to Ogden and she had enjoyed it very much.
Speaker 6: But in any event, yeah, I mean, it's real creepy
Speaker 6: when you think about these oddities, these these circumstances that occur.
Speaker 6: But the thing people need to remember about Bundy is
Speaker 6: when you look at these kind of abductions from lakes
Speaker 6: to Manage, to coming in and exposing themselves to fifteen
Speaker 6: hundred people at DeMont High School and in bound for Utah,
Speaker 6: and just some of the other wild things that he did,
Speaker 6: the Lindy and Healy abduction, this is a guy that
Speaker 6: would do practically anything. And again, most normal people they
Speaker 6: don't think in terms of this, and they think, well,
Speaker 6: there surely wouldn't be anybody that would do this, or
Speaker 6: yes there are not everybody would have the savvy to
Speaker 6: carry out the kind of murders that Bundy did. Even
Speaker 6: if they're cycle passed and to get away with it
Speaker 6: so long. But again, Bundy was a very skilled planner
Speaker 6: of murder, and it's odd, it's just odd he would
Speaker 6: just get away with one murder act another.
Speaker 7: Let's talk about one that is particularly brazy, we'll say
Speaker 7: for a great for lack of a better term, and
Speaker 7: this is in Colorado. You call this chapter a lethal
Speaker 7: Colorado Winter. In nineteen seventy five, he left Utah for
Speaker 7: Colorado and people know this story, but it's definitely worth
Speaker 7: exploring again. The wild Wood End with Karen Campbell. Yes, yes, blatant,
Speaker 7: how brazen an attack was this Colorado is about.
Speaker 6: Yeah, this Karen Campbell, Yes, that's an interesting case. And
Speaker 6: I just have to I'm just I'm always going to
Speaker 6: be eternally grateful for all the investigators that work these cases,
Speaker 6: that worked with me. In the writing of my book
Speaker 6: The Bundy Bars, Mike Fisher and I got really close.
Speaker 6: He just he just really opened up to me, and
Speaker 6: he told me things that he was not comfortable telling
Speaker 6: to the general public back then. And but you know,
Speaker 6: this is twenty years later, after one of these executions,
Speaker 6: I'm contacted him and we really became friends and he
Speaker 6: and he wrote out a lot of stuff for me
Speaker 6: an email, and we talked a lot on the phones.
Speaker 6: But he talks about uh things, and he you know,
Speaker 6: he was really give him a lot of praise in
Speaker 6: my book. He was just a stute law man. Well,
Speaker 6: the wild Wood in was a strange abduction. And what
Speaker 6: happened was is that there was a medical conference uh
Speaker 6: in in in AskMen uh in at snow Mass, which
Speaker 6: is like AskMen snow Mass. It's all right there. You
Speaker 6: know the lodges you got asked in the bottle, and
Speaker 6: they got all these lodges up up on the hill
Speaker 6: and and and and uh the snow Mass Lodge, the
Speaker 6: wild Wood in its way up there. And attending the
Speaker 6: medical conference was doctor Raymond Godowski, uh from Michigan, his
Speaker 6: girlfriend who was a nurse, Karen Campbell, their mutual friend,
Speaker 6: and also a former boyfriend doctor Rosenthal. Now I don't
Speaker 6: I only use three pseudonyms in my book the Bundy
Speaker 6: Murders for Guyant Edwards, for doctor Rosenthal, I call him
Speaker 6: doctor Brinkman. And for Karence Sparks, I used Terry Caldwell.
Speaker 6: Truth be told, I thought Sparks was not a was
Speaker 6: not a real name, so but I might use the
Speaker 6: pseudonym anyway. Everybody else name was in there, but I
Speaker 6: purposely didn't do it for Rosenthal or for Edwards. I
Speaker 6: just thought it would be more appropriate. But they came
Speaker 6: from Michigan, and you know, they weren't there twenty four
Speaker 6: hours until this terrible thing happened. And what happened is
Speaker 6: and here's the thing. This is really interesting because I
Speaker 6: wrote about this in depth in the in the Bundy Murders.
Speaker 6: I remember Fisher telling me, he said, you know the
Speaker 6: wild Wood In And at the time he's telling me this,
Speaker 6: I'm doing a lot of research. I had never been there.
Speaker 6: But he said, the wild wood In is kind of
Speaker 6: like a horseshoe shaped building and a variety of buildings,
Speaker 6: but there is an out a very popular outdoor heated pool.
Speaker 6: And he said that pool in these deep cold of
Speaker 6: a Colorado winter, will constantly in the steam. He said,
Speaker 6: it can get so heavy that you know, you can
Speaker 6: see people and then they disappear, they kind of come
Speaker 6: into focus, they go away.
Speaker 2: And so.
Speaker 6: Bundy's not stupid, and he could see that, and he
Speaker 6: knew that such a factor would aid in what he
Speaker 6: wanted to do, and so Mike Fisher gave me a
Speaker 6: lot of information. We talked about a lot of things
Speaker 6: and so on. That evening, Karen Campbell wasn't feeling well
Speaker 6: and they went to some lass village. There's a place
Speaker 6: that's right there called the stupot In and it's still there,
Speaker 6: and she had she didn't want to eat a whole lot,
Speaker 6: but she got a bullet of stew and she got
Speaker 6: a glass of milk and she didn't finish either of them.
Speaker 6: And they went back to the And also, I just
Speaker 6: I'm just gonna throw this out. It's not usually wise
Speaker 6: to have your wife around somebody that she used to
Speaker 6: sleep with. I mean, I know that they were all friends,
Speaker 6: but the dynamics of the sexual relationships among people, when
Speaker 6: you know that that has gone on, it can sometimes
Speaker 6: create issues with people. And I didn't go into this
Speaker 6: in great detail then, but I knew it was that
Speaker 6: was probably there. There were some issues going on, all
Speaker 6: the record says. And what Mike and I talked about
Speaker 6: was is that when they when when doctor Rosenthal and
Speaker 6: and and doctor Gadowski and the two kids and Karen
Speaker 6: Campbell went back from having dinner at the stupat the end,
Speaker 6: he flopped in the chair doctor doctor Gadowski in the
Speaker 6: sunken bar area where the fireplace. I've been there, it's
Speaker 6: really nice. And she they had stopped off at a
Speaker 6: at a little drug store for at the sup potty,
Speaker 6: and it's right there, and they were pruising the magazines.
Speaker 6: And doctor Rosenthal, I think he had a Pantastas. I
Speaker 6: think it's a Hustler, and Karen had a Viva. Now,
Speaker 6: Viva was kind of like a somewhat erotic magazine for
Speaker 6: females back then, and I know in the encyclopedia I
Speaker 6: put the dates of when the magazine started and when
Speaker 6: it ended, but it was nothing like a hustler, but
Speaker 6: it was still one of those kind of like a
Speaker 6: writ things. So they were laughing about it, and they
Speaker 6: decided to exchange magazines. So Karen had said to doctor Godowski,
Speaker 6: you know, Raymond Gadowski, could you go get my magazine?
Speaker 6: They had a room in to ten. He said no,
Speaker 6: he refused to do it. And you get the sense
Speaker 6: when you read the record that he must have been
Speaker 6: irritated about something. And I kind of think I know
Speaker 6: what that is, but I don't write about it. But
Speaker 6: so Rosenthal goes off to get his magazine. She goes
Speaker 6: off to get hurt. Now here's again circumstances. How circumstances
Speaker 6: determine whether you're going to get abducted or or not.
Speaker 6: The kids, Kadawski's kids wanted to go with Karen to
Speaker 6: her room. She allowed them to walk to the elevator
Speaker 6: where she was going to take it, but then she
Speaker 6: sent them back to their dad. Had she taken the
Speaker 6: kid with her, there isn't any way that she would
Speaker 6: have been abducted. GV alive and breathing right now, unless
Speaker 6: he was killing a car wreck or something. So she
Speaker 6: goes up. Now at the time, Mike's telling me all this,
Speaker 6: We covered so much stuff, and I reproduce a lot
Speaker 6: of his emails and information forbade him for the next
Speaker 6: Bundy book after the Bunny Verse, the Trilla Dead Bunny.
Speaker 6: But I didn't know that Mike knew exactly how he
Speaker 6: got her, and he did a fantastic job Mike did
Speaker 6: of interviewing people in the middle of the night. They're
Speaker 6: getting names. It took him a long time to track
Speaker 6: Bundy down with this. But she goes up the elevator.
Speaker 6: I see in the first edition of the Bundy Merse
Speaker 6: that he must have been standing back out of the
Speaker 6: shadows on the second floor, near like a like a
Speaker 6: closet area for that they had there the walkways, uh,
Speaker 6: you know, the steam's not going on. You can see
Speaker 6: everything from all angles. First floor or second floor, it
Speaker 6: doesn't matter.
Speaker 7: And I was.
Speaker 6: Assuming that because there was a woman named Elizabeth Harder
Speaker 6: that saw Bundy by the elevator. I think everybody assumed
Speaker 6: that was on the second floor, so she got out.
Speaker 6: He must have said something to her. Then turns up.
Speaker 6: It turns out that Bundy gave up. I mean, Mike
Speaker 6: Fisher gave a news conference afterwards, and I remember Mike
Speaker 6: telling me, and I saw this in the article that
Speaker 6: before Bundy had gone up to the wild Wood End,
Speaker 6: he spent time in in in Aspen, like driving around
Speaker 6: and hunting for victims down there, and then he went up,
Speaker 6: as Bundy said, amongst the lodges, and he ended up
Speaker 6: at this thing. It turns out that Mike had mentioned
Speaker 6: how she was abducted in an article to the Aspen
Speaker 6: Times after he returned from the execution of Bundy in
Speaker 6: January of nineteen eighty nine, and here's what he said.
Speaker 6: And so I've added this to the second edition. And
Speaker 6: I wasn't aware of this, He wasn't keeping it from me.
Speaker 6: I've just talked about so many many, many, many many things.
Speaker 6: We just never hit on this. What he did was
Speaker 6: Harder did see him, and he was by the elevator,
Speaker 6: the elevator most likely on the first floor, and Bundy
Speaker 6: admitted to Fisher that there was a particular woman that
Speaker 6: as colvid as it was, he was trying to get
Speaker 6: her to go with him, was to help him like
Speaker 6: he was on crutches, but Harder saw him. He it
Speaker 6: must have laid the crutches down and was just standing
Speaker 6: there because she didn't see any crutches. And he had
Speaker 6: also step but he had laid those down too, and
Speaker 6: she didn't see those. But according to what Mike said
Speaker 6: that she saw that after Harter saw him, Karen, who
Speaker 6: had taken the elevator up, was walking across the outdoor
Speaker 6: balcony and as must have been as the steam parted
Speaker 6: for a second, he saw she saw Bundy on crushes
Speaker 6: and so she's a nurse. She asked him if he
Speaker 6: needed help. Well, Bundy wanted this other woman. He wanted
Speaker 6: to get this other one. But when she offered that,
Speaker 6: he said yes. And what Bundy said what he did
Speaker 6: was that she helped him. She may have come down
Speaker 6: to the first floor, he may have gone up the
Speaker 6: second boy, and then they went down the steps from
Speaker 6: the outside. They had parked in the They have a
Speaker 6: big parking lot on the left. She could park some
Speaker 6: of in a couple of areas, but their main parking
Speaker 6: lot is on the left of the building. So I
Speaker 6: got a picture that I took of the stairs leading
Speaker 6: down from the pool areas and outside stairs. That's probably
Speaker 6: what they came down and then turned the left wand
Speaker 6: into the parking lot. But Bundy said when they got
Speaker 6: to the car, and no doubt, and he probably didn't
Speaker 6: have the crowbar out this time, or he would have
Speaker 6: used it, as she was apparently put in the crutches
Speaker 6: in his car, he took the ski boots and hit
Speaker 6: her in the head and knocked her out. Now he
Speaker 6: would tell Mike Fisher, he would tell, of course, after
Speaker 6: he did that. He probably struck her one time with
Speaker 6: the crowbar, because that's what he told Fisher, you know,
Speaker 6: he said, it looks like all the others I hit
Speaker 6: her just once played with a crowbar, didn't kill her,
Speaker 6: knocked her out. He took her two point eight miles away.
Speaker 6: There's a road called the Outcreak Road that leads right
Speaker 6: out of that village once you get down even go
Speaker 6: on Outcreak Road, went two point eight miles away. And
Speaker 6: he told Fisher, I did not thing right there in
Speaker 6: the car. And that's in the first ambition. And so
Speaker 6: but I've added this extra stuff. Here's this wild abduction,
Speaker 6: wild abduction. And he gets away with it. And then
Speaker 6: he said he left. Some people think he stayed around,
Speaker 6: maybe came back to me, and let no, he says
Speaker 6: real clearly in the record, he said he he he
Speaker 6: got away from there on what he termed it slicked
Speaker 6: back roads. And so it's a fantastic, uh an odd abduction.
Speaker 6: Of course, doctor Goodawski had to call the police. That's
Speaker 6: when Mike first, you know, uh you got a call
Speaker 6: from share Bill Baldridge, and so they end up going
Speaker 6: to the uh wild wood in and interviewing him, and
Speaker 6: they stayed the rest of the time at the medical
Speaker 6: conference and uh you know, went back. But you know,
Speaker 6: Michael wasn't thinking he was involved, but he did. He
Speaker 6: did polygraph him, uh, while he was there. It was uh,
Speaker 6: it wasn't. It didn't. It didn't exonerate him and certainly
Speaker 6: didn't make him guilty. It was I don't know what
Speaker 6: the word that he was. I can't think of it.
Speaker 6: The same word they used the book, but it was
Speaker 6: not He wasn't showing any times of deception at all.
Speaker 6: And then he would take a later one with Mike
Speaker 6: when Mike visited Michigan and he passed the playing college.
Speaker 6: Of course the children were there and they backed up
Speaker 6: the bad story. So Mike didn't really think they were suspects,
Speaker 6: but as a good defective he had to completely ruled
Speaker 6: them out, and they had to rule out. We're in
Speaker 6: Kodowski and also doctor Rosenthal and so you know, and
Speaker 6: so one last thing led to another, and a year later,
Speaker 6: when he was back there, he talked to this Elizabeth
Speaker 6: Harter and she identified Bundy as being the one. And
Speaker 6: of course when that happened, he knew that he was
Speaker 6: on the hunt for the right you know, the right guy.
Speaker 6: He later determined that because Jerry Thompson, He and Jerry
Speaker 6: Thompson had been working together, because both of them had
Speaker 6: Missigan and murdered women in the state in Colorado and
Speaker 6: Utah back up to each other, and so they shared
Speaker 6: their information freely, and Jerry had gotten Bundy's gas receipts
Speaker 6: and then that that was a great thing because then
Speaker 6: it showed Bundy being in the areas where these women
Speaker 6: disappeared at the time they disappeared, and and he's using
Speaker 6: his gas cards, so they knew they had the right guy.
Speaker 6: A terrible, terrible thing. An though Elizabeth Hard ended up
Speaker 6: identifying somebody else during his trial, uh and which and
Speaker 6: Fisher always believed that it could have been something like
Speaker 6: and she's dead now I can't say this, but I
Speaker 6: don't think he's a looted anymore. But he always felt
Speaker 6: like it was perhaps because she was maybe against the
Speaker 6: death penalty and this was a death comnoty case. But
Speaker 6: he wasn't sure. But she just misidentified. And now later
Speaker 6: I had a fellow tell me that she might it
Speaker 6: might have been an honest mistake because there was a
Speaker 6: fellow there that kind of looked like Bundy, but but
Speaker 6: was not so anyway, very interesting case you have.
Speaker 7: At the same time, around the same time or after this,
Speaker 7: A friend talks to Liz Kendall and says, look at
Speaker 7: these things are happening in Utah. So she urges her
Speaker 7: to call police, and she talks to somebody named Captain Hayward.
Speaker 7: Captain Hayward says to her, look at we've checked him out.
Speaker 7: He's just a law student. It's okay. Now he continues
Speaker 7: his killing spree. But we get to August fifteenth, nineteen
Speaker 7: seventy five, and there is a sergeant Bob Hayward of
Speaker 7: Utah Highlight Patrol on a part of me. It's not
Speaker 7: August fifteenth, part of me, it's August sixth, you say,
Speaker 7: around two thirty.
Speaker 6: Tell us about it.
Speaker 7: No, actually incredible, okay, tell us about the encounter and
Speaker 7: maybe correct me on the date.
Speaker 6: Then yeah, that's okay. Yeah, it is August August sixteenth,
Speaker 6: Actually August. He wasn't booked until the sixteenth. It was
Speaker 6: in the early morning hours, so this would be I
Speaker 6: guess on the fifteenth.
Speaker 7: But okay, he was.
Speaker 6: Yeah. The highway patrol fella is Bob haywarth He's the
Speaker 6: brother of the homicide captain in Salt Lake City at
Speaker 6: the Sheriff's Department, Pete Hayward, And so they were brothers
Speaker 6: and in fact, Bob Hayward somebody told me when I
Speaker 6: was researching the book, somebody had mentioned that he was dead,
Speaker 6: and I knew Pete was dead, but I had this report,
Speaker 6: I had everything. I didn't need to talk to him,
Speaker 6: but it would have been nice. I would I'd like
Speaker 6: to have said alone. But in any event, he didn't
Speaker 6: die until I think about a year year and a
Speaker 6: half ago, really old fellow when he died, but he
Speaker 6: had Bundy. Bundy was such a liar when he was
Speaker 6: arrested that night and it came out to who he was.
Speaker 6: You know, he even tell people that even Unton that night.
Speaker 6: That's what that's a lot. He had removed the passenger
Speaker 6: seat and that was lying in the backseat, and he
Speaker 6: had his murder kit to get this. The murder kit
Speaker 6: was not just sitting inside the car. It was unzipped
Speaker 6: and the peg was unzipped and some of the stuff
Speaker 6: was like stolen out of it. Well, around two o'clock
Speaker 6: in Granger, Utah, a small suburb, he's sitting there, he's
Speaker 6: smoking a joint and he's got a map out. He's
Speaker 6: trying to figure out his way back to to you know,
Speaker 6: his home and Bob Hayward is just getting off work
Speaker 6: and he sees Bundy and he observes him for a
Speaker 6: little bit. That when but when Hayward turns his lights
Speaker 6: on again and starts coming at him, Uh, it freaks
Speaker 6: Bundy out. He starts the car, he takes off, the
Speaker 6: dumbest thing he could have done. And Uh, the reason
Speaker 6: why Hayward was paying special attention to him fairly, his
Speaker 6: neighborhood had suffered just a normal neighborhood, it's certainly with
Speaker 6: a bad area. It had suffered a ration of burglaries lately.
Speaker 6: He thought, well, maybe this guy who's why would there
Speaker 6: be a guy sitting at two o'clock in the morning,
Speaker 6: So obviously it was a suspicious deal. So Bunny tries
Speaker 6: to flee. He's not going to be able to flee.
Speaker 6: He's never going to outrun that cop car. He goes.
Speaker 6: He starts off with his lights off and he ends
Speaker 6: up turning them on. He runs through a couple of
Speaker 6: stop signs. Then he gets out on more of a
Speaker 6: main road. I think it's thirty five, but I can't remember,
Speaker 6: turns left. He's not going to get away from him,
Speaker 6: and so what he ends up doing is pulling into
Speaker 6: a place where a gas station needs to be. I
Speaker 6: believe it was out of business, and of course that
Speaker 6: is how that happened. And of course a Ward Bundy
Speaker 6: gets out of the car. He's going to schmooze the cop,
Speaker 6: no doubt. And I have added this to that to
Speaker 6: the new edition. But instead of carrying a simple thirty
Speaker 6: eight revolver like most police officers did, Bob carried a
Speaker 6: three fifty seven magnum. You can also fire thirty hls
Speaker 6: through that, but he carried the actual magnum, which is
Speaker 6: not normally a standard issue for a patrolman, usually back
Speaker 6: in that time of the nineteen seventies. But there may
Speaker 6: have been with his department. I don't highway patrol it,
Speaker 6: I guess maybe it was, but for local police departments
Speaker 6: it's usually it's usually a thirty eight special back then.
Speaker 6: So he opens his door crack and he sticks the
Speaker 6: magnum out between his door, tells Bundy to stop, of course,
Speaker 6: Then you know, he goes up and he looks at
Speaker 6: the car. Bundy gives him permission to no look at
Speaker 6: it and go inside of it. What Hayward does? He
Speaker 6: looks in there and he sees immediately the passenger seat
Speaker 6: is gone, and then he sees this bag. So he
Speaker 6: called the Salty County sheriff and he gets a couple
Speaker 6: of patrol officers out there, and they also send detective
Speaker 6: Daryl Andrac out there, right, and Andrac comes out there,
Speaker 6: and of course, Andrac takes a look at this stuff,
Speaker 6: and you know, hey, we already said looking at some money,
Speaker 6: I'm you know, I'm going to arrest you the night
Speaker 6: for evading a police officer and also being in possession
Speaker 6: of burglary tools. But the Saltway County Sheriff's office, if
Speaker 6: they had a deal like that, they would often charge
Speaker 6: somebody with burglary tools just to get them in jail,
Speaker 6: and then if they had amend that to something else,
Speaker 6: they would do so later. But when Andrac saw that stuff,
Speaker 6: he thought, no, this is you know, this is more
Speaker 6: than just he's carrying stuff that burglars don't carry. He's carrying,
Speaker 6: you know, rope, he's carrying sheets, bed sheets that have
Speaker 6: been tied that have been torn in strips, like the
Speaker 6: binding hands or feet. So you know, detectives they look
Speaker 6: at it, they go, this isn't normal burglars. Somebody like
Speaker 6: trying to abduct somebody. It's just it's different, but charge
Speaker 6: of burnery and and he goes, well, from that moment on,
Speaker 6: it was Bundy the hunter has now become Bundy the hunted.
Speaker 6: And from that moment on he would never kill again
Speaker 6: until Flora. But you know, he just so it was
Speaker 6: a very pivotal moment for everybody. And uh, you know,
Speaker 6: it's almost like an epiphany happened that once this unveiling occurred,
Speaker 6: it's like the scales from everybody's eyes that fell off,
Speaker 6: and everybody knew that this man who had been killing
Speaker 6: in the Pacific Northwest and in Utah and in Oregon
Speaker 6: there was killed, abducted parks from there and then and
Speaker 6: then Colorado and then Idaho and then you know, we
Speaker 6: haven't even covered the abduction of like, you know, the
Speaker 6: twelve year old girl you know, with a cover from
Speaker 6: from Polka Tello, Idaho. But you know it's him. Everybody
Speaker 6: knew it's him, and there was no denying it and
Speaker 6: there was no doubts. I remember Thompson said to me once,
Speaker 6: and I quoted him of the book. He said, when
Speaker 6: I got the gas receipts, he tried to keep it
Speaker 6: open mind before then. But he said, when I got
Speaker 6: the gas receipts and I saw that Bundy was in
Speaker 6: these areas at the same time that these young women
Speaker 6: were disappearing, he said, I knew there wasn't any way,
Speaker 6: it wasn't him. And so the scale spell from everybody's
Speaker 6: eyes at one time. And then from that moment on
Speaker 6: it was it was, you know, Bundy was in survival mode.
Speaker 6: And I say that he probably didn't know where it
Speaker 6: was all going to go when he walked home back
Speaker 6: night vand pounded in his car of August sixteenth, nineteen
Speaker 6: seventy five. But he would soon find out. And of course,
Speaker 6: you know, within a few months, because of the investigation
Speaker 6: into this guy Bundy, he would be charged in October
Speaker 6: of seventy five with the abduction of Carol Larache and
Speaker 6: uh they and they also wont to charge him with
Speaker 6: the attempted to murder, but they had been amendment to
Speaker 6: just because there was no proof that he was going
Speaker 6: to murder. They knew he would have and so you know,
Speaker 6: from from that moment and then it's an interesting thing.
Speaker 6: You know, after he gets out of jail with that
Speaker 6: on bail and he's hired an attorney. He's allowed to
Speaker 6: go back to his home in Seattle, and he uh,
Speaker 6: you know, for like late in the fall, late in November,
Speaker 6: I think he arrived in I think he arrived there
Speaker 6: in like December one, and he would not have to
Speaker 6: return to Salt Lake City until around I think around
Speaker 6: mid February, and uh, you know, so when when he
Speaker 6: was really based on jail. Thompson called Kepple's people and
Speaker 6: I want to give your heads up that he's been
Speaker 6: released and there's no restrictions on travel and he's going
Speaker 6: to come there. And they already they already anticipated go there.
Speaker 6: And because Seattle authorities, couple people were working with a
Speaker 6: couple psychiatrists, psychiatrists and psychologists on what kind of person
Speaker 6: they're dealing with with the murdering of these women, and
Speaker 6: now they know it's Bundy. They said, listen. The psychiatric
Speaker 6: people said, you're going to have to keep him under surveillance,
Speaker 6: and he's going to have to know he's under surveillance,
Speaker 6: because it's only him knowing he's under surveillance that will
Speaker 6: cause him not to commit another act. And he said,
Speaker 6: even if you can't keep your eyes on him. Twenty
Speaker 6: four to seven, although you know you need to try
Speaker 6: to do that. He's got to feel that pressure of
Speaker 6: being under surveillance, and so I call it like a
Speaker 6: thing of the predator under glass, and Bundy has a
Speaker 6: hard time with it. She had a hard time with
Speaker 6: it in Utah as well. And for this last one November,
Speaker 6: I republished all of those surveillance things that happened with
Speaker 6: him in Utah, but in the Monday Murders I only
Speaker 6: added the very interesting ones of of what happened in Seattle,
Speaker 6: the Seattle area. And then in one of the books,
Speaker 6: I think maybe the Bundy's Secrets, I published all the
Speaker 6: surveillance things for people to see later. So it's interesting.
Speaker 6: And so again Bunny would never murder again, of course.
Speaker 6: You know. Here's what happened, and I'm just gonna say it.
Speaker 6: He gets one to fifteen years in Utah State Prison.
Speaker 6: That nickname pointed them mount in prison for the abduction
Speaker 6: of care at the Lodge. Mike Fisher gets a warrant
Speaker 6: place to get him for the Colorado murder of Pary Campbell.
Speaker 6: They transferred to the jail there and Fisher took him
Speaker 6: there with two other people personally, he and Fisher and
Speaker 6: Thompson one than one of them. You gotta watch this guy.
Speaker 6: He escapes once, is recaptured, and then escapes a second time.
Speaker 6: I mean he's a Keystone cops who were running these jails.
Speaker 6: I'm telling you, that's what the paper called them. Yeh.
Speaker 6: And then of course he gets to Florida, comes through Louisville,
Speaker 6: doesn't murder anybody, gets to Florida and sets up shot
Speaker 6: down there and ends up committing two murders kind Omega murders,
Speaker 6: and in his last murder, just like when that Culver
Speaker 6: was twelve, he ends up murdering Kimberly Leech on February ninth,
Speaker 6: nineteen seventy eight, and he's he is then, you know, arrested.
Speaker 6: Nobody knows who is that he's arrested as he tries
Speaker 6: to flee the state in Pensacola on I think the
Speaker 6: fifteenth of February, and so then after that that's the
Speaker 6: end of the road and it's just a slow journey
Speaker 6: to the execution chamber.
Speaker 7: Yes, you add so much incredible detail in this the
Speaker 7: Bundy murders, and it's such an exciting story of all
Speaker 7: the twists and turns, the escapes. And it's interesting too
Speaker 7: when you talk about Thompson and Fish are pleading with
Speaker 7: these authorities, that this is the kind of a guy
Speaker 7: that wants to escape and remarkably escapes and then is
Speaker 7: allowed to are allowed, but allowed somehow to escape again
Speaker 7: and his carnage continue. This story should have ended right here,
Speaker 7: because it was enough missteps. He had eluded all authorities
Speaker 7: in six states and murdered almost at will, this guy.
Speaker 7: And yet and yet at the same time he was
Speaker 7: allowed to continue this And and as you write, he
Speaker 7: was a much different person when he was killing in Florida.
Speaker 7: Once he got down there, he was a much much
Speaker 7: different person and a much different killer, wasn't he?
Speaker 6: Oh? He was, he was. He was actually spiraling downward
Speaker 6: and people would notice some sometimes unkempt and dirty, and
Speaker 6: just he wasn't and he And this is interesting. He
Speaker 6: had lost his ability in Florida to draw women to him,
Speaker 6: as he had in Washington State and even in Utah.
Speaker 6: He had lost that ability. But it wasn't just that
Speaker 6: women were kind of repulsed by him. I remember the
Speaker 6: women at on the Kyomega the night he attacked Kyomega.
Speaker 6: The women at share it which was a disco right
Speaker 6: next to a Kyomega said, I don't want this guy
Speaker 6: asked me to dance, and they said he was putting
Speaker 6: off these weird vibes, just like the one. Lady said,
Speaker 6: I think they just call a black. She said, It's
Speaker 6: like he had this almost like a smirk on his face,
Speaker 6: like I know something that you don't know. And so
Speaker 6: he was not the swall killer of nineteen seventy four.
Speaker 6: Those days were over.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I want to thank you very much. I want
Speaker 7: to thank you very much Kevin Sullivan for coming on
Speaker 7: and talking about the Bundye Murders, A comprehensive history. This
Speaker 7: is a second edition and we've been just listeners have
Speaker 7: been listening to part two of our interview. I continue
Speaker 7: from last week.
Speaker 6: Uh.
Speaker 7: For those that might want to take a look at this,
Speaker 7: is there a Facebook page? Tell us how they might
Speaker 7: find out more information about this book, Bundy book and
Speaker 7: all of your other Bundy books.
Speaker 6: Yes, well you can all there's there's actually two ways there.
Speaker 6: You can go through my author page on Amazon and
Speaker 6: it lists all my books and they still sell the
Speaker 6: Bundy Murders first edition it sells well. And there's now
Speaker 6: the second edition sells well and it makesically wanted to
Speaker 6: do the people but on the first and all those
Speaker 6: the seconds out there. But but but they're both on
Speaker 6: Amazon and all the other books. Or you can go
Speaker 6: to Wild Blue Press. I'm an author there. I published
Speaker 6: mostly through Wild Blue Press now, but I've got a
Speaker 6: number of publishers, and of course with Bundy Murders, with
Speaker 6: you know McFarlane, so eat a spot and of course
Speaker 6: if people want to contact me and connect with me
Speaker 6: on Facebook, i am there as well.
Speaker 7: That's been great, Thank you very much. It's always an
Speaker 7: absolute pleasure to speak to the absolute authority on all
Speaker 7: things Ted Bundy. Thank you very much Kevin Sullivan for
Speaker 7: talking about the Bundy murders. A comprehensive history certainly is
Speaker 7: Thank you very much, Kevin, and have a.
Speaker 6: Great Thank you Dan, and we'll see you next time.
Speaker 6: Thank you, bye bye