WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.080 --> 00:00:04.839 How'd you like to listen to dot NetRocks with no ads? Easy? 2 00:00:05.360 --> 00:00:08.560 Become a patron for just five dollars a month. You 3 00:00:08.599 --> 00:00:11.320 get access to a private RSS feed where all the 4 00:00:11.359 --> 00:00:14.560 shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month. We'll get 5 00:00:14.599 --> 00:00:18.440 you that and a special dot NetRocks patron mug. Sign 6 00:00:18.519 --> 00:00:35.000 up now at Patreon dot dot NetRocks dot com. Hey, 7 00:00:35.240 --> 00:00:38.439 welcome back to dot net rocks. I'm Carl Franklin at 8 00:00:38.439 --> 00:00:43.039 Amateur gam and this is Show nineteen hundred and twenty. 9 00:00:43.399 --> 00:00:46.880 There you go, and Chris Sells we can see him, 10 00:00:46.960 --> 00:00:49.039 you can't see him, but he just shook his head like, 11 00:00:49.079 --> 00:00:53.119 how did that happen? He was at episode ten. Well, anyway, 12 00:00:53.240 --> 00:00:56.000 nineteen twenty was a leap year starting on Thursday of 13 00:00:56.159 --> 00:00:59.200 the Gregorian calendar, and a leap year starting on Wednesday 14 00:00:59.240 --> 00:01:03.399 of the Julian calendar. The nineteen hundred and twentieth year 15 00:01:03.399 --> 00:01:07.959 of the Common era and Anno Dominie designations, the nine 16 00:01:08.079 --> 00:01:10.959 hundred and twentieth year of the second millennium, the twentieth 17 00:01:11.000 --> 00:01:13.400 year of the twentieth century, in the first year of 18 00:01:13.439 --> 00:01:16.359 the nineteen twenties decade, of course, don't you feel old? 19 00:01:16.480 --> 00:01:18.920 Yes? It's also when the League of Nations got formed. 20 00:01:18.959 --> 00:01:22.000 Ah, are there any other trivial details you want to 21 00:01:22.000 --> 00:01:23.719 say about nineteen twenty Richard. 22 00:01:23.439 --> 00:01:25.920 Because women got the vote in the United States. 23 00:01:26.159 --> 00:01:29.519 You're amazing. We didn't even practice this. No, he just 24 00:01:29.599 --> 00:01:33.239 looked up to the sky. Yeah, here's a factoid. Pretty 25 00:01:33.239 --> 00:01:37.280 sure it's nineteen twenty. Yeah, pretty sure? Wow, amazing. All right, 26 00:01:37.319 --> 00:01:40.280 As we said, Chris Sells is coming up here. I 27 00:01:40.319 --> 00:01:42.840 know you're interested and anxious to hear from him. But 28 00:01:42.920 --> 00:01:45.280 first we have this little thing called better No Framework. 29 00:01:45.400 --> 00:01:54.439 Awesome, bopart man, what do you got? 30 00:01:54.439 --> 00:01:58.239 Simon Cropps sent me this. It's not his but GitHub 31 00:01:58.280 --> 00:02:03.239 dot com. Slash Auto dark Mode h slash Windows Auto 32 00:02:03.680 --> 00:02:04.760 night Mode. 33 00:02:05.040 --> 00:02:07.200 So night mode versus dark mode. 34 00:02:07.280 --> 00:02:09.520 Well yeah, so the whole idea is that it goes 35 00:02:09.560 --> 00:02:12.479 to dark mode at night, right, and then and then 36 00:02:13.800 --> 00:02:16.879 you know, light mode in the daytime. Now, I work 37 00:02:17.080 --> 00:02:21.479 in a room with no windows, right, I am dark 38 00:02:21.520 --> 00:02:24.759 mode all the time, and I like it that way. Yeah, 39 00:02:24.879 --> 00:02:27.719 but I know there are people that you know, do 40 00:02:27.879 --> 00:02:30.439 work out in the daylight, such as you Richard. 41 00:02:30.520 --> 00:02:31.919 Yeah, I got natural light coming in. 42 00:02:32.240 --> 00:02:34.719 Yeah, and you might you know, you get this feature 43 00:02:34.719 --> 00:02:39.919 in phones, right, it goes to dark mode automatically. Why not? 44 00:02:40.400 --> 00:02:41.960 Why not for Windows? 45 00:02:42.039 --> 00:02:43.400 Yeah? Why should it be in your PC? 46 00:02:43.759 --> 00:02:44.039 Yeah? 47 00:02:44.039 --> 00:02:45.479 Absolutely no, that's a good idea. Yeah. 48 00:02:45.479 --> 00:02:47.599 So if that's the kind of thing you like, there 49 00:02:47.639 --> 00:02:49.439 you go, know it, learn it. Love at nineteen twenty 50 00:02:49.479 --> 00:02:52.000 dot po dot me awesome. Who's talking to us today? 51 00:02:52.080 --> 00:02:55.000 Richard gravity Komatova Show eighteen ninety eight, the one we 52 00:02:55.039 --> 00:02:58.479 did with our friend Sean Wildermouth earlier this year twenty 53 00:02:58.520 --> 00:03:01.879 twenty four on being a senior software developer, which I 54 00:03:01.879 --> 00:03:06.000 would argue kicked off the largest chains of conversation so 55 00:03:06.120 --> 00:03:06.800 far this year. 56 00:03:06.960 --> 00:03:09.439 And isn't it interesting that he was like a little 57 00:03:09.439 --> 00:03:11.439 concerned that it might not go over well and. 58 00:03:11.560 --> 00:03:13.599 It's like this is not an important show. It's like, 59 00:03:14.360 --> 00:03:15.080 I think you're wrong. 60 00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:15.759 Yeah. 61 00:03:16.039 --> 00:03:17.159 And he also didn't know that. 62 00:03:17.080 --> 00:03:21.319 I had Aaron Erickson coming on the following week, which 63 00:03:21.400 --> 00:03:24.439 the aromatic developer, same age, a little. 64 00:03:24.199 --> 00:03:25.599 Different career sto story. 65 00:03:25.759 --> 00:03:27.960 So I thought it was a good comparison and just 66 00:03:28.000 --> 00:03:30.560 ability to tell that show anyway. I thought one of 67 00:03:30.560 --> 00:03:32.680 these comments would fit really nicely with where we're going 68 00:03:32.719 --> 00:03:35.280 to end up going, clearly being three old guys talking. 69 00:03:35.080 --> 00:03:35.560 On a show. 70 00:03:36.159 --> 00:03:38.199 This is from Smitty, who said, I am about to 71 00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:40.560 turn sixty and have been a professional developer for thirty 72 00:03:40.599 --> 00:03:43.319 eight years. I just discovered this website and podcast as 73 00:03:43.360 --> 00:03:46.240 a resolve the show that Richard does with Throt that'd 74 00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:48.759 be Windows Weekly. Anyway, I saw an interview with Sean, 75 00:03:48.800 --> 00:03:50.280 who I knew from Plural site, and I gave it 76 00:03:50.319 --> 00:03:52.680 a listen and I really enjoyed it. I've gone through 77 00:03:52.719 --> 00:03:55.159 this phase a couple of times. They sort of what 78 00:03:55.199 --> 00:03:57.039 am I doing with my career phase, which I think 79 00:03:57.080 --> 00:03:59.080 was where Sean was at at the time, and I'm 80 00:03:59.120 --> 00:04:01.639 in it again. For the last fifteen years, I've been 81 00:04:01.639 --> 00:04:04.639 working my way up through management and currently in upper management. 82 00:04:04.719 --> 00:04:07.000 The money is great and has mentioned in the episode. 83 00:04:07.039 --> 00:04:09.240 My value is the wisdom that I've accrued over the 84 00:04:09.280 --> 00:04:12.520 decades is useful in my department of forty plus developers 85 00:04:12.520 --> 00:04:15.319 and directors these days. My question is when do I 86 00:04:15.360 --> 00:04:18.519 retire five to seven years and what do I do 87 00:04:18.560 --> 00:04:20.839 after that. I just don't see myself sitting in a 88 00:04:20.920 --> 00:04:24.079 rocker on a front porch anytime soon. Yep, yeah, I know. 89 00:04:24.360 --> 00:04:26.199 You know, if you stop, you're going to die, right 90 00:04:26.279 --> 00:04:28.199 We're sharks here. You need to keep moving. 91 00:04:28.360 --> 00:04:32.720 But yeah, seriously, though, if you guys are different obviously 92 00:04:32.920 --> 00:04:37.160 maybe Chris isn't. But if I don't write code at least, 93 00:04:37.240 --> 00:04:40.519 you know, several hours a week, I feel like, why 94 00:04:40.560 --> 00:04:41.879 am I even on this planet? 95 00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:43.079 Yeah? No, I know what you mean. 96 00:04:43.199 --> 00:04:45.079 And what I realized is like, I don't know a 97 00:04:45.160 --> 00:04:47.759 project per se, but I'm always writing bits of code 98 00:04:47.759 --> 00:04:48.319 for things. 99 00:04:48.639 --> 00:04:50.639 Yeah, a lot of it is home automation. 100 00:04:50.360 --> 00:04:53.279 These days, but it's still you know, you're always trying 101 00:04:53.319 --> 00:04:55.160 to solve problems with code because you. 102 00:04:55.199 --> 00:04:56.439 Can, because I can. 103 00:04:56.560 --> 00:04:59.680 Yeah, but let's face it, there's so many more things 104 00:04:59.680 --> 00:05:02.360 to do. I'm getting ready to build another machine, and 105 00:05:02.399 --> 00:05:05.480 the conversation with the local community spun into hey, would 106 00:05:05.519 --> 00:05:07.720 you build that machine at the high school? 107 00:05:07.920 --> 00:05:08.079 Right? 108 00:05:08.279 --> 00:05:10.600 You know, do a session with every with everyone to 109 00:05:10.639 --> 00:05:13.519 show walk them through building machine. I'm like, yeah, absolutely, 110 00:05:13.560 --> 00:05:15.439 Like these are things you could do any point in 111 00:05:15.480 --> 00:05:19.240 your life, that's right. Yeah, and there's more time, yeah 112 00:05:19.279 --> 00:05:19.639 for sure. 113 00:05:19.759 --> 00:05:20.120 Yeah. 114 00:05:20.160 --> 00:05:22.000 So Smittie, thank you so much for your comment. And 115 00:05:22.040 --> 00:05:23.759 a copy of music Coby is on its way to you, 116 00:05:23.800 --> 00:05:25.399 and if you'd like a copy of music, go buy. 117 00:05:25.399 --> 00:05:27.319 I write a comment on the website at dot NetRocks 118 00:05:27.360 --> 00:05:29.560 dot com or on the facebooks. We publish every show there, 119 00:05:29.720 --> 00:05:31.199 and if you comment there and every reading on the show, 120 00:05:31.199 --> 00:05:32.600 we'll send your copy of music Cobi. 121 00:05:32.839 --> 00:05:35.279 And Yeah, music to code By is still going strong. 122 00:05:35.399 --> 00:05:37.920 People are buying it and which is great. And I'm 123 00:05:37.920 --> 00:05:41.480 thinking about fixing fixing to come up with a new one. 124 00:05:41.600 --> 00:05:44.879 You're not just fixing to go fixing for uh in 125 00:05:44.920 --> 00:05:48.920 the right? Yeah for twenty two track number twenty two. 126 00:05:49.000 --> 00:05:51.360 You were saying an earlier show that you were listening 127 00:05:51.399 --> 00:05:53.720 to it and it sort of triggered some things in 128 00:05:53.759 --> 00:05:54.079 your head. 129 00:05:54.160 --> 00:05:56.879 Right, Yeah, it's like, you know, this isn't quite half bad, 130 00:05:57.000 --> 00:05:59.519 And you know, I was only worried that I was 131 00:05:59.519 --> 00:06:02.600 listening to it as music and not a background stuff, 132 00:06:02.639 --> 00:06:06.199 but it still did the trick. Well, let's bring on 133 00:06:07.120 --> 00:06:12.839 Chris Sells. Chris is an advocate for developers, a Flutter fanatic, 134 00:06:13.399 --> 00:06:17.120 and a consultant and applied AI and developer tools and ecosystems, 135 00:06:18.439 --> 00:06:22.199 now retired. He enjoys long walks on the beach and 136 00:06:24.319 --> 00:06:27.279 has technologies and I do not think he is looking 137 00:06:27.319 --> 00:06:31.519 for another wife, right. I know that long walks on 138 00:06:31.560 --> 00:06:33.240 the beach thing kind of triggered that thought. 139 00:06:33.319 --> 00:06:39.319 Ye also the guest on episode ten, which like the 140 00:06:39.439 --> 00:06:45.120 definitive description of garbage collection. Yes, in two thousand and two. 141 00:06:44.759 --> 00:06:48.040 And episode one hundred and several episodes. 142 00:06:47.680 --> 00:06:49.519 After that, but more than a dozen. 143 00:06:49.759 --> 00:06:53.120 A lot of things have happened since episode ten. 144 00:06:56.439 --> 00:07:00.399 I can't believe you're at episode nineteen twenty? Are you 145 00:07:00.560 --> 00:07:04.720 kidding me? Now? You're into like the twentieth century, right, 146 00:07:05.240 --> 00:07:07.800 these are like years, And of course that's what you did, right, 147 00:07:07.839 --> 00:07:11.120 You went, hey, you know what happened in nineteen twenty, 148 00:07:11.160 --> 00:07:15.680 and you forgot prohibition, which seems like a bad idea. 149 00:07:16.160 --> 00:07:18.920 The ACLU was formed, which is a good idea. And 150 00:07:20.519 --> 00:07:23.360 I didn't know this. I'm sure Richard, you did that. 151 00:07:23.600 --> 00:07:27.839 Ponzi's schemes were named after a man named Charles Ponzi. Ponzi, 152 00:07:27.879 --> 00:07:30.839 and he did it in nineteen twenty. Wow. 153 00:07:31.240 --> 00:07:34.279 I think the biggest esthetic around nineteen twenty is you're 154 00:07:34.279 --> 00:07:37.000 coming out of World War One and the Spanish Flu, 155 00:07:37.600 --> 00:07:40.000 and so culturally there was this sense of what we 156 00:07:40.079 --> 00:07:44.600 now call existentialism. It's like everybody knew somebody who had died, 157 00:07:45.079 --> 00:07:49.360 and for random reasons, the first industrialized war, this disease, 158 00:07:49.399 --> 00:07:52.360 we didn't understand. You know, at this point, Pastor has 159 00:07:52.360 --> 00:07:55.079 figured out what brewers yeast is. But that's about it. 160 00:07:55.279 --> 00:08:01.120 We're still twenty years away from any any treatments for 161 00:08:01.160 --> 00:08:03.439 a lot of these things. You still had children that 162 00:08:03.639 --> 00:08:07.759 died from stepping on a nail, right, and so the 163 00:08:07.759 --> 00:08:10.920 fact that you had this insanity happen over the previous 164 00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:13.279 five eight years. This is where the. 165 00:08:13.199 --> 00:08:15.879 Whole flapper movement comes from. Where a lot of this 166 00:08:15.879 --> 00:08:18.639 stuff comes from. Was like party today because the day 167 00:08:18.720 --> 00:08:22.879 is lie. Hey, save this for subsequent shows. Yeah, the 168 00:08:23.000 --> 00:08:24.439 Roaring twenties, this is it. 169 00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:26.040 We have a lot of shows to get through. 170 00:08:26.279 --> 00:08:29.279 Yeah. So these yeah, these are the shows. These are 171 00:08:29.319 --> 00:08:31.399 your Roaring twenties, your shows. 172 00:08:31.639 --> 00:08:33.759 Yes, we're going to do It's nineteen twenty and we're 173 00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:35.320 going to roar through them because they have. 174 00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:38.000 So many good stories about this. I am happy to 175 00:08:38.080 --> 00:08:46.159 be your first flapper on your nineteen era of shows date. 176 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:50.200 All right, Uh so what have you been up to 177 00:08:50.519 --> 00:08:54.039 mister Cell's retirement, you said before the show. 178 00:08:54.320 --> 00:08:59.919 Well, it's funny. I did the math in June, my birthday, 179 00:09:00.919 --> 00:09:06.120 and I have been a full time software engineer for 180 00:09:06.200 --> 00:09:09.799 about forty years at that point. And yes, if you 181 00:09:09.840 --> 00:09:12.399 do the math. I actually started with an Apple two 182 00:09:12.399 --> 00:09:15.440 plus my parents' basement when I was about fourteen, and 183 00:09:15.480 --> 00:09:17.120 they made me go to high school during the day, 184 00:09:17.159 --> 00:09:19.759 but all the rest of the time I was writing code, 185 00:09:20.679 --> 00:09:23.879 and I've been sixty five two assembler. It was not Oh, 186 00:09:23.919 --> 00:09:27.440 I did some of that right. I would indexed indirect 187 00:09:27.480 --> 00:09:33.240 addressing for anyone. I remember really entering these strings of 188 00:09:33.360 --> 00:09:36.360 sixty five h two just by as numbers as folks 189 00:09:36.399 --> 00:09:41.399 statements right from magazines. And so for Christmas one year, 190 00:09:41.480 --> 00:09:45.120 I asked my grandmother to buy me a speech synthesis 191 00:09:45.159 --> 00:09:47.879 card for my Apple two plus, which she had no 192 00:09:47.919 --> 00:09:51.120 idea what that was, but you know she I helped 193 00:09:51.120 --> 00:09:55.960 her track it down and I used it to read 194 00:09:56.039 --> 00:09:59.360 back to me the listings that I entered from the 195 00:09:59.440 --> 00:10:03.159 magazine to make sure that I got everything right, because 196 00:10:03.200 --> 00:10:06.120 you know, you drop one number instead of going eyes 197 00:10:06.159 --> 00:10:08.639 back and forth, you're literally hearing it say it, and 198 00:10:08.639 --> 00:10:10.639 you're reading against the magata. That's right. I love it. 199 00:10:10.840 --> 00:10:14.120 Yeah and yeah. So a Swedish farmer was reading me 200 00:10:14.240 --> 00:10:17.679 back my code listings to make sure that I entered 201 00:10:17.720 --> 00:10:18.399 them correctly. 202 00:10:18.799 --> 00:10:21.799 You're not going to believe this, but I my first 203 00:10:21.799 --> 00:10:25.000 computer at home was a trsaight model. For I know, 204 00:10:25.159 --> 00:10:27.720 I'm like the young kid in the crowd right in 205 00:10:27.799 --> 00:10:32.399 terms of computers. But I also bought a speech synthesis 206 00:10:32.440 --> 00:10:34.480 card that you could attach to the back of it, 207 00:10:34.759 --> 00:10:37.480 and I used it to play games with my friends, 208 00:10:37.519 --> 00:10:40.720 where I taught my friend how to enter in an 209 00:10:40.720 --> 00:10:44.960 input statement for a particular person that we knew, and 210 00:10:45.000 --> 00:10:47.960 then it would spit out, you know, a time warp 211 00:10:48.360 --> 00:10:50.960 that what happened, like you, the game was you woke 212 00:10:51.039 --> 00:10:53.120 up in the future, and you have a computer here, 213 00:10:53.159 --> 00:10:55.519 and you want to ask it what happened to you? 214 00:10:55.519 --> 00:10:58.000 Put in a name, and then it read back a paragraph. 215 00:10:58.320 --> 00:11:01.919 And we would spend hours just writing up these crazy paragraphs, 216 00:11:01.919 --> 00:11:04.960 and the thing would speak it back to us. Just 217 00:11:05.000 --> 00:11:07.399 these are twenty rain stories. 218 00:11:07.200 --> 00:11:11.159 We talk about, you know, our first computers at Richard. 219 00:11:11.200 --> 00:11:13.360 I hope you'll tell us what yours is in a minute. 220 00:11:13.399 --> 00:11:16.799 But Tira Sadi model one. There you go, the Trash eighty, 221 00:11:16.879 --> 00:11:21.279 the Appleitude plus, right, I mean a friend of mine 222 00:11:21.320 --> 00:11:24.679 who had a big twenty. I mean, I think anyone 223 00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:26.480 listening to the show is going to think we're born 224 00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:27.519 in the nineteen twenties. 225 00:11:27.720 --> 00:11:33.799 No, yeah, I apparently the Tira Sad. I didn't learn 226 00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:36.200 this till years later when I got smitten with history, 227 00:11:36.840 --> 00:11:39.039 that the Tandy company did not think it was going 228 00:11:39.080 --> 00:11:41.879 to do well. So they only manufactured like two thousand 229 00:11:41.960 --> 00:11:45.600 of them and distributed one to each store, and that's 230 00:11:45.639 --> 00:11:48.840 all there was. And they just sort of sat in 231 00:11:48.840 --> 00:11:52.080 the corner. And I was the kid at ten, who 232 00:11:52.360 --> 00:11:55.120 is this nineteen seventies? So and I went in and 233 00:11:55.240 --> 00:11:58.279 I could make it work, and they didn't care, right 234 00:11:58.320 --> 00:12:00.279 that I could make it work, then we're doing anything 235 00:12:00.279 --> 00:12:02.559 with it. So I had to find time messed around 236 00:12:02.559 --> 00:12:05.799 with a whole four k a ram, right, But it 237 00:12:05.840 --> 00:12:08.279 also then became a sales tool, right, like when people 238 00:12:08.320 --> 00:12:10.000 did get interested in wanted to buy it. The fact 239 00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:11.600 that the ten year old was making it sing and 240 00:12:11.720 --> 00:12:13.600 dance so you can do this. 241 00:12:13.720 --> 00:12:17.360 Yeah, they didn't realize you were just any ten year old, right, 242 00:12:17.759 --> 00:12:20.320 So yeah, it's still I guess it was nice for 243 00:12:20.360 --> 00:12:20.759 the store. 244 00:12:20.799 --> 00:12:22.200 But I was in a radio shack in the first 245 00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:24.919 place because I was buying parts for making stuff go boom. 246 00:12:25.240 --> 00:12:27.120 I wanted to I wanted to rock a countdown timeer 247 00:12:27.120 --> 00:12:28.879 because saying three to two one is too much work 248 00:12:28.919 --> 00:12:30.440 for me, right, I want to push a button and 249 00:12:30.480 --> 00:12:31.320 it counts down for me. 250 00:12:31.720 --> 00:12:33.919 For me. I did the same thing Richard Nixon. I've 251 00:12:33.960 --> 00:12:36.120 told the story before, except I was kind of a jokester. 252 00:12:36.720 --> 00:12:38.600 So I'd go into radio shack where they had the 253 00:12:38.639 --> 00:12:41.919 Tandies running, and I would press control C to break 254 00:12:41.960 --> 00:12:44.080 out of the basic program that was running, and I'd 255 00:12:44.120 --> 00:12:47.759 clear it and write my own basic program. And usually 256 00:12:47.799 --> 00:12:51.919 it ended up with swearing at the cost inevitably, Yeah. 257 00:12:52.120 --> 00:12:57.600 Ten print Carl rules twenty go to ten right, Yeah, Yeah. 258 00:12:57.679 --> 00:12:59.080 It was more like what's your name? 259 00:12:59.240 --> 00:12:59.720 A dollar? 260 00:13:00.360 --> 00:13:08.240 And then fu a Dallas, pretty simple man and just 261 00:13:08.320 --> 00:13:10.879 walk out as a jerk little kid. 262 00:13:12.000 --> 00:13:15.519 Anyway, so we did you were at Microsoft. There was 263 00:13:15.519 --> 00:13:18.799 a long gap on I'm just thinking about shows. Then 264 00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:21.399 we did the Leak Show issue which was thirteen thirty seven, 265 00:13:21.519 --> 00:13:25.440 I mean literally leaps sure, which was the Google Cloud Show, 266 00:13:25.440 --> 00:13:29.080 which I thought was really awesome, right, talking about dot 267 00:13:29.080 --> 00:13:31.080 net on Google Cloud and all the goodness that still 268 00:13:31.120 --> 00:13:34.440 exists there. And then we certainly fld a lot of 269 00:13:34.480 --> 00:13:37.279 flutterlove by the edmen on the show. Since you left 270 00:13:37.320 --> 00:13:39.360 Google for Facebook, what was that about? 271 00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:41.799 Yeah? What was what were you thinking? What was that 272 00:13:41.840 --> 00:13:43.879 about I'm pretty sure I phoned you at the time 273 00:13:43.919 --> 00:13:45.120 and go, dude, what are you doing. 274 00:13:47.840 --> 00:13:48.120 Well? 275 00:13:48.200 --> 00:13:55.039 And I am not and have never been a Facebook user, right, 276 00:13:55.399 --> 00:13:57.960 I was a I was not a Facebook user when 277 00:13:58.480 --> 00:14:02.320 not being a before being a Facebook user were cool, right, 278 00:14:02.480 --> 00:14:06.840 that's right, And so when I interviewed with them, actually 279 00:14:06.919 --> 00:14:08.759 was funny. I'm like, just to be clear, I'm not 280 00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:11.120 I don't use Facebook. I don't know if that's a 281 00:14:11.159 --> 00:14:13.519 deal break or not. And they were fine because at 282 00:14:13.879 --> 00:14:16.840 that point they had changed their name to Meta Meta. 283 00:14:17.120 --> 00:14:19.159 So that's how I think about it. I went to 284 00:14:19.200 --> 00:14:21.000 work for Meta, and I went to work for Meta 285 00:14:22.440 --> 00:14:24.799 so I could work with my dear dear friend Don 286 00:14:24.840 --> 00:14:29.279 Box okay fair, yeah, yeah, And he was in Reality Lab. 287 00:14:29.320 --> 00:14:33.799 He was a VP there driving various AR and VR 288 00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:37.559 kinds of things, and so I was there doing deb 289 00:14:37.639 --> 00:14:42.960 tools for AR and VR developers for their well, for 290 00:14:43.080 --> 00:14:47.120 their so this quest head set now, right, and then 291 00:14:47.320 --> 00:14:49.720 you know we were working on and still I'm sure 292 00:14:49.759 --> 00:14:53.799 they're still working on AR hardware, right, you know, more 293 00:14:53.879 --> 00:14:56.919 like glasses than goggles, right, yeah? Sure? Sure. Did you 294 00:14:56.919 --> 00:14:59.840 work on Horizon World? No? I did not. I was 295 00:15:00.039 --> 00:15:01.639 working on the other side. I was working on the 296 00:15:01.679 --> 00:15:04.360 platform side. That was one of the apps they were building. 297 00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:07.000 Yeah, so they were implementing the tooling you were building. 298 00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:09.519 Was what helped build the Horizon World, presumably. 299 00:15:09.399 --> 00:15:13.679 You would, Yeah, I mean there was a platform of things, 300 00:15:13.720 --> 00:15:16.159 and we had actually a bunch of teams around Meta 301 00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:19.519 building various things. Obviously Horizon World was one of the 302 00:15:20.159 --> 00:15:24.440 big clients for that platform, but a lot of building 303 00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:28.679 a lot of first party apps. The idea being, you know, 304 00:15:29.399 --> 00:15:32.200 what was the thing that developers needed to build for 305 00:15:32.720 --> 00:15:38.759 to build compelling VR apps? Apps? Not games? Right? The 306 00:15:38.759 --> 00:15:41.120 games thing they had locked down and they still do, sure, 307 00:15:41.159 --> 00:15:47.120 but apps or or mixed reality apps or are augmented 308 00:15:47.159 --> 00:15:49.559 reality apps? Right, what do you really need? 309 00:15:49.600 --> 00:15:52.200 And so I thought Unity was that thing. In fact, 310 00:15:52.200 --> 00:15:53.440 I think you told me as much. 311 00:15:53.679 --> 00:15:57.480 Well, so Unity was the what they used to build 312 00:15:59.000 --> 00:16:05.240 games for sure, and absent experiences for uh, for virtual 313 00:16:05.320 --> 00:16:08.399 reality right where you own all the pixels. Unity is 314 00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:11.519 great for that and and Meta had a partnership. I'm 315 00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:14.159 sure it still does with Unity. And you know, one 316 00:16:14.159 --> 00:16:16.639 of the outputs from the Unity ide was, Hey, I 317 00:16:16.720 --> 00:16:19.519 want to target something for the quest. But when it 318 00:16:19.600 --> 00:16:24.799 comes to augmented reality, you know, the the hardware you 319 00:16:24.879 --> 00:16:27.879 get on a pair of glasses or the hardware they 320 00:16:27.919 --> 00:16:32.519 were projecting or you know, uh dreaming of right, was 321 00:16:32.559 --> 00:16:35.039 going to be a lot smaller. It's way too small 322 00:16:35.080 --> 00:16:39.480 to run something big like Unity, right, so wise, yeah, 323 00:16:39.519 --> 00:16:42.240 so we were we were looking for something, you know, 324 00:16:42.559 --> 00:16:46.639 much smaller that you could you know, get the performance 325 00:16:46.759 --> 00:16:50.240 and and still figure and still build the experiences at 326 00:16:50.240 --> 00:16:54.240 the same time inventing what those experiences would be. Right, 327 00:16:54.279 --> 00:16:57.159 what do people really want? What? What's the killer app 328 00:16:57.200 --> 00:16:59.759 if you were for for your glasses? Right? 329 00:16:59.840 --> 00:17:02.200 So, really, what you're talking about is an app that 330 00:17:02.279 --> 00:17:05.160 you can run on the glasses or the goggles or 331 00:17:05.200 --> 00:17:09.880 whatever that lets you build the experience on them, not 332 00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:10.640 on a PC. 333 00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:13.240 No no, no, no, no, no no, you build the 334 00:17:13.279 --> 00:17:14.319 experiences on a PC. 335 00:17:14.640 --> 00:17:16.039 Oh you do, okay, that. 336 00:17:16.119 --> 00:17:17.839 Target the app? Oh yeah, but you are trying to 337 00:17:17.839 --> 00:17:18.920 do the twolling. Yeah yeah, yeah. 338 00:17:18.960 --> 00:17:20.400 But if you think you need to paint a vision 339 00:17:20.440 --> 00:17:22.119 before you know what to build a tool. So for me, 340 00:17:22.200 --> 00:17:24.920 the thing I've been struggling with with AR is what 341 00:17:25.039 --> 00:17:28.240 is the information workers app? You know, what is the 342 00:17:28.279 --> 00:17:32.359 word in Excel that needs a augmented reality? 343 00:17:32.599 --> 00:17:35.279 Yeah? So, and of course that is that is a question. 344 00:17:35.319 --> 00:17:38.079 That's the killer app for me. The killer app I want. 345 00:17:38.119 --> 00:17:40.759 I want the terminator vision, right right. I want to 346 00:17:40.799 --> 00:17:44.200 walk around and just see all this extra metadata, have 347 00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:47.720 your reality augmented, that's right. I want you know, Oh, 348 00:17:47.240 --> 00:17:51.640 I'm great with faces, but terrible with names. Help me understand. 349 00:17:51.680 --> 00:17:54.640 As I approach this person, write what they're remind me 350 00:17:54.680 --> 00:17:56.839 of their name. And the last time we talked, they. 351 00:17:56.680 --> 00:17:58.839 Had that in the seventies. It was called LSD. 352 00:18:01.359 --> 00:18:01.880 That's great. 353 00:18:02.839 --> 00:18:05.079 It wasn't necessarily accurate information, but. 354 00:18:05.440 --> 00:18:07.119 If you made sure the person you're talking to was 355 00:18:07.160 --> 00:18:08.480 taking it too, they didn't care. 356 00:18:09.720 --> 00:18:12.960 Yeah, yeah, so you can think of LSD. I mean 357 00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:16.319 the other part the reason one of the things I 358 00:18:16.359 --> 00:18:19.720 cared about was I want useful information. I don't. I 359 00:18:19.720 --> 00:18:21.920 didn't want it to be just you know, this stream 360 00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:25.599 of ads shooting shouting it to you from all the 361 00:18:25.640 --> 00:18:27.400 places around me. Right, yep. 362 00:18:27.519 --> 00:18:30.160 Yeah, that's there, and therein lies the challenge, right, So 363 00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:32.119 what's the business model? But I do think it's a 364 00:18:32.200 --> 00:18:37.319 very challenging space. Like every time I dig into industrial applications, 365 00:18:37.319 --> 00:18:39.640 like I've looked at some of the HoloLens applications where 366 00:18:39.640 --> 00:18:44.200 they're working on expensive machines and the fact that the 367 00:18:44.240 --> 00:18:47.920 software can exactly that augment these are the steps to 368 00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:51.400 do this maintenance, and then also keeps a detail video 369 00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:54.799 record of them doing it correctly, like when you're working 370 00:18:54.799 --> 00:18:57.599 on a fifty dollars million dollar machine doing a five 371 00:18:57.640 --> 00:19:00.720 million dollar maintenance. A five thousand dollar our headset isn't 372 00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:03.440 a big deal. Now it's not. But that's very much 373 00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:08.440 that vertical industry, that certain verticals that makes sense. It's 374 00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:09.599 not a consumer product. 375 00:19:09.599 --> 00:19:13.279 Well it was interesting too because while I was there, 376 00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:18.000 we were definitely focused on the consumer space, but every 377 00:19:18.039 --> 00:19:22.640 one of our competitors had already transitioned to the enterprise space, 378 00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:27.119 right Hollo Lens was enterprise and government, and Google Glass 379 00:19:27.240 --> 00:19:32.279 was enterprise and and Magical Leap who knew what they 380 00:19:32.319 --> 00:19:37.559 were doing. And then you know, Meta was very focused 381 00:19:37.640 --> 00:19:41.079 on consumers, and of course, you know they always happen, right, 382 00:19:41.119 --> 00:19:43.440 I mean, that's just in the DNA of the company. 383 00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:44.480 Product's always been. 384 00:19:44.799 --> 00:19:48.319 And they changed their name to Meta presumably to promote 385 00:19:48.359 --> 00:19:51.480 this idea of the metaverse where they thought that everything 386 00:19:51.680 --> 00:19:55.599 was going. Did they think they would be there by now? 387 00:19:56.519 --> 00:20:00.000 Oh yes, for sure, And in fact, in many ways 388 00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:03.039 as they are. I mean they are easily the number 389 00:20:03.119 --> 00:20:06.440 one VR headsind right. They keep pumping out better and 390 00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:11.839 better quests, and the games are really great. They're a 391 00:20:11.880 --> 00:20:13.519 ton of fun, and they get they get better with 392 00:20:13.559 --> 00:20:20.559 their regeneration. But the thing that they kind of had 393 00:20:20.599 --> 00:20:24.000 a kind of unexpected hit in was the fitness apps. 394 00:20:25.160 --> 00:20:28.839 And I understand this myself, right, I mean, exercise has 395 00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:33.000 traditionally been something I do not enjoy, and so if 396 00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:36.720 because it's just boring, right, and so the nice thing 397 00:20:36.759 --> 00:20:39.599 about the Quest is, you know you can do all 398 00:20:39.720 --> 00:20:43.319 kinds of amazing things that are actually good for you, right, 399 00:20:43.440 --> 00:20:48.680 You have fun, you're you're mentally engaged, and and and 400 00:20:48.680 --> 00:20:53.279 and so they are easily the number one in that space. 401 00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:58.559