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Speaker 1: How'd you like to listen to dot NetRocks with no ads? Easy?

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Become a patron for just five dollars a month. You

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shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month. We'll get

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you that and a special dot NetRocks patron mug. Sign

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up now at Patreon dot dot NetRocks dot com. Hey,

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welcome back to dot net rocks. I'm Carl Franklin at

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Amateur gam and this is Show nineteen hundred and twenty.

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There you go, and Chris Sells we can see him,

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you can't see him, but he just shook his head like,

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how did that happen? He was at episode ten. Well, anyway,

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nineteen twenty was a leap year starting on Thursday of

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the Gregorian calendar, and a leap year starting on Wednesday

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of the Julian calendar. The nineteen hundred and twentieth year

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of the Common era and Anno Dominie designations, the nine

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hundred and twentieth year of the second millennium, the twentieth

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year of the twentieth century, in the first year of

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the nineteen twenties decade, of course, don't you feel old?

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Speaker 2: Yes? It's also when the League of Nations got formed.

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Speaker 1: Ah, are there any other trivial details you want to

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say about nineteen twenty Richard.

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Speaker 2: Because women got the vote in the United States.

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Speaker 1: You're amazing. We didn't even practice this. No, he just

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looked up to the sky. Yeah, here's a factoid. Pretty

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sure it's nineteen twenty. Yeah, pretty sure? Wow, amazing. All right,

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As we said, Chris Sells is coming up here. I

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know you're interested and anxious to hear from him. But

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first we have this little thing called better No Framework.

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Speaker 2: Awesome, bopart man, what do you got?

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Speaker 1: Simon Cropps sent me this. It's not his but GitHub

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dot com. Slash Auto dark Mode h slash Windows Auto

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night Mode.

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Speaker 2: So night mode versus dark mode.

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Speaker 1: Well yeah, so the whole idea is that it goes

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to dark mode at night, right, and then and then

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you know, light mode in the daytime. Now, I work

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in a room with no windows, right, I am dark

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mode all the time, and I like it that way. Yeah,

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but I know there are people that you know, do

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work out in the daylight, such as you Richard.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I got natural light coming in.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you might you know, you get this feature

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in phones, right, it goes to dark mode automatically. Why not?

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Why not for Windows?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Why should it be in your PC?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely no, that's a good idea. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So if that's the kind of thing you like, there

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you go, know it, learn it. Love at nineteen twenty

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dot po dot me awesome. Who's talking to us today?

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Speaker 3: Richard gravity Komatova Show eighteen ninety eight, the one we

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did with our friend Sean Wildermouth earlier this year twenty

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twenty four on being a senior software developer, which I

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would argue kicked off the largest chains of conversation so

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far this year.

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Speaker 1: And isn't it interesting that he was like a little

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concerned that it might not go over well and.

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Speaker 2: It's like this is not an important show. It's like,

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I think you're wrong.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And he also didn't know that.

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Speaker 3: I had Aaron Erickson coming on the following week, which

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the aromatic developer, same age, a little.

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Speaker 2: Different career sto story.

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Speaker 3: So I thought it was a good comparison and just

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ability to tell that show anyway. I thought one of

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these comments would fit really nicely with where we're going

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to end up going, clearly being three old guys talking.

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Speaker 2: On a show.

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Speaker 3: This is from Smitty, who said, I am about to

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turn sixty and have been a professional developer for thirty

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eight years. I just discovered this website and podcast as

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a resolve the show that Richard does with Throt that'd

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be Windows Weekly. Anyway, I saw an interview with Sean,

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who I knew from Plural site, and I gave it

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a listen and I really enjoyed it. I've gone through

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this phase a couple of times. They sort of what

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am I doing with my career phase, which I think

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was where Sean was at at the time, and I'm

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in it again. For the last fifteen years, I've been

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working my way up through management and currently in upper management.

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The money is great and has mentioned in the episode.

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My value is the wisdom that I've accrued over the

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decades is useful in my department of forty plus developers

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and directors these days. My question is when do I

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retire five to seven years and what do I do

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after that. I just don't see myself sitting in a

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rocker on a front porch anytime soon. Yep, yeah, I know.

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Speaker 2: You know, if you stop, you're going to die, right

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We're sharks here. You need to keep moving.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, seriously, though, if you guys are different obviously

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maybe Chris isn't. But if I don't write code at least,

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you know, several hours a week, I feel like, why

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am I even on this planet?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? No, I know what you mean.

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Speaker 3: And what I realized is like, I don't know a

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project per se, but I'm always writing bits of code

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for things.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of it is home automation.

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Speaker 3: These days, but it's still you know, you're always trying

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to solve problems with code because you.

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Speaker 1: Can, because I can.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but let's face it, there's so many more things

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to do. I'm getting ready to build another machine, and

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the conversation with the local community spun into hey, would

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you build that machine at the high school?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 3: You know, do a session with every with everyone to

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show walk them through building machine. I'm like, yeah, absolutely,

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Like these are things you could do any point in

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your life, that's right. Yeah, and there's more time, yeah

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for sure.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So Smittie, thank you so much for your comment. And

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a copy of music Coby is on its way to you,

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and if you'd like a copy of music, go buy.

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I write a comment on the website at dot NetRocks

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dot com or on the facebooks. We publish every show there,

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and if you comment there and every reading on the show,

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we'll send your copy of music Cobi.

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Speaker 1: And Yeah, music to code By is still going strong.

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People are buying it and which is great. And I'm

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thinking about fixing fixing to come up with a new one.

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You're not just fixing to go fixing for uh in

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the right? Yeah for twenty two track number twenty two.

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Speaker 3: You were saying an earlier show that you were listening

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to it and it sort of triggered some things in

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your head.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, it's like, you know, this isn't quite half bad,

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And you know, I was only worried that I was

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listening to it as music and not a background stuff,

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but it still did the trick. Well, let's bring on

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Chris Sells. Chris is an advocate for developers, a Flutter fanatic,

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and a consultant and applied AI and developer tools and ecosystems,

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now retired. He enjoys long walks on the beach and

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has technologies and I do not think he is looking

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for another wife, right. I know that long walks on

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the beach thing kind of triggered that thought.

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Speaker 3: Ye also the guest on episode ten, which like the

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definitive description of garbage collection. Yes, in two thousand and two.

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Speaker 1: And episode one hundred and several episodes.

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Speaker 2: After that, but more than a dozen.

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Speaker 1: A lot of things have happened since episode ten.

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Speaker 2: I can't believe you're at episode nineteen twenty? Are you

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kidding me? Now? You're into like the twentieth century, right,

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these are like years, And of course that's what you did, right,

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You went, hey, you know what happened in nineteen twenty,

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and you forgot prohibition, which seems like a bad idea.

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The ACLU was formed, which is a good idea. And

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I didn't know this. I'm sure Richard, you did that.

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Ponzi's schemes were named after a man named Charles Ponzi. Ponzi,

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and he did it in nineteen twenty. Wow.

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Speaker 3: I think the biggest esthetic around nineteen twenty is you're

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coming out of World War One and the Spanish Flu,

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and so culturally there was this sense of what we

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now call existentialism. It's like everybody knew somebody who had died,

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and for random reasons, the first industrialized war, this disease,

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we didn't understand. You know, at this point, Pastor has

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figured out what brewers yeast is. But that's about it.

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We're still twenty years away from any any treatments for

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a lot of these things. You still had children that

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died from stepping on a nail, right, and so the

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fact that you had this insanity happen over the previous

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five eight years. This is where the.

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Speaker 2: Whole flapper movement comes from. Where a lot of this

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stuff comes from. Was like party today because the day

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is lie. Hey, save this for subsequent shows. Yeah, the

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Roaring twenties, this is it.

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Speaker 1: We have a lot of shows to get through.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So these yeah, these are the shows. These are

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your Roaring twenties, your shows.

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Speaker 3: Yes, we're going to do It's nineteen twenty and we're

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going to roar through them because they have.

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Speaker 2: So many good stories about this. I am happy to

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be your first flapper on your nineteen era of shows date.

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Speaker 1: All right, Uh so what have you been up to

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mister Cell's retirement, you said before the show.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's funny. I did the math in June, my birthday,

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and I have been a full time software engineer for

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about forty years at that point. And yes, if you

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do the math. I actually started with an Apple two

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plus my parents' basement when I was about fourteen, and

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they made me go to high school during the day,

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but all the rest of the time I was writing code,

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and I've been sixty five two assembler. It was not Oh,

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I did some of that right. I would indexed indirect

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addressing for anyone. I remember really entering these strings of

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sixty five h two just by as numbers as folks

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statements right from magazines. And so for Christmas one year,

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I asked my grandmother to buy me a speech synthesis

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card for my Apple two plus, which she had no

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idea what that was, but you know she I helped

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her track it down and I used it to read

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back to me the listings that I entered from the

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magazine to make sure that I got everything right, because

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you know, you drop one number instead of going eyes

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back and forth, you're literally hearing it say it, and

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you're reading against the magata. That's right. I love it.

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Yeah and yeah. So a Swedish farmer was reading me

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back my code listings to make sure that I entered

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them correctly.

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Speaker 1: You're not going to believe this, but I my first

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computer at home was a trsaight model. For I know,

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I'm like the young kid in the crowd right in

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terms of computers. But I also bought a speech synthesis

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card that you could attach to the back of it,

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and I used it to play games with my friends,

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where I taught my friend how to enter in an

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input statement for a particular person that we knew, and

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then it would spit out, you know, a time warp

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that what happened, like you, the game was you woke

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up in the future, and you have a computer here,

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and you want to ask it what happened to you?

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Put in a name, and then it read back a paragraph.

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And we would spend hours just writing up these crazy paragraphs,

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and the thing would speak it back to us. Just

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these are twenty rain stories.

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Speaker 2: We talk about, you know, our first computers at Richard.

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I hope you'll tell us what yours is in a minute.

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But Tira Sadi model one. There you go, the Trash eighty,

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the Appleitude plus, right, I mean a friend of mine

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who had a big twenty. I mean, I think anyone

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listening to the show is going to think we're born

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in the nineteen twenties.

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Speaker 3: No, yeah, I apparently the Tira Sad. I didn't learn

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this till years later when I got smitten with history,

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that the Tandy company did not think it was going

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to do well. So they only manufactured like two thousand

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of them and distributed one to each store, and that's

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all there was. And they just sort of sat in

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the corner. And I was the kid at ten, who

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is this nineteen seventies? So and I went in and

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I could make it work, and they didn't care, right

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that I could make it work, then we're doing anything

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with it. So I had to find time messed around

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with a whole four k a ram, right, But it

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also then became a sales tool, right, like when people

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did get interested in wanted to buy it. The fact

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that the ten year old was making it sing and

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dance so you can do this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they didn't realize you were just any ten year old, right,

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So yeah, it's still I guess it was nice for

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the store.

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Speaker 3: But I was in a radio shack in the first

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place because I was buying parts for making stuff go boom.

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I wanted to I wanted to rock a countdown timeer

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because saying three to two one is too much work

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for me, right, I want to push a button and

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it counts down for me.

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Speaker 1: For me. I did the same thing Richard Nixon. I've

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told the story before, except I was kind of a jokester.

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So I'd go into radio shack where they had the

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Tandies running, and I would press control C to break

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out of the basic program that was running, and I'd

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clear it and write my own basic program. And usually

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it ended up with swearing at the cost inevitably, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Ten print Carl rules twenty go to ten right, Yeah, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It was more like what's your name?

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Speaker 2: A dollar?

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Speaker 4: And then fu a Dallas, pretty simple man and just

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walk out as a jerk little kid.

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Speaker 3: Anyway, so we did you were at Microsoft. There was

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a long gap on I'm just thinking about shows. Then

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we did the Leak Show issue which was thirteen thirty seven,

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I mean literally leaps sure, which was the Google Cloud Show,

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which I thought was really awesome, right, talking about dot

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net on Google Cloud and all the goodness that still

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exists there. And then we certainly fld a lot of

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flutterlove by the edmen on the show. Since you left

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Google for Facebook, what was that about?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? What was what were you thinking? What was that

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about I'm pretty sure I phoned you at the time

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and go, dude, what are you doing.

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Speaker 1: Well?

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Speaker 2: And I am not and have never been a Facebook user, right,

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I was a I was not a Facebook user when

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not being a before being a Facebook user were cool, right,

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that's right, And so when I interviewed with them, actually

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was funny. I'm like, just to be clear, I'm not

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I don't use Facebook. I don't know if that's a

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deal break or not. And they were fine because at

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that point they had changed their name to Meta Meta.

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So that's how I think about it. I went to

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work for Meta, and I went to work for Meta

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so I could work with my dear dear friend Don

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Box okay fair, yeah, yeah, And he was in Reality Lab.

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He was a VP there driving various AR and VR

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kinds of things, and so I was there doing deb

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tools for AR and VR developers for their well, for

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their so this quest head set now, right, and then

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you know we were working on and still I'm sure

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they're still working on AR hardware, right, you know, more

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like glasses than goggles, right, yeah? Sure? Sure. Did you

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work on Horizon World? No? I did not. I was

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working on the other side. I was working on the

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platform side. That was one of the apps they were building.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so they were implementing the tooling you were building.

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Was what helped build the Horizon World, presumably.

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Speaker 2: You would, Yeah, I mean there was a platform of things,

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and we had actually a bunch of teams around Meta

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building various things. Obviously Horizon World was one of the

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big clients for that platform, but a lot of building

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a lot of first party apps. The idea being, you know,

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what was the thing that developers needed to build for

305
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to build compelling VR apps? Apps? Not games? Right? The

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games thing they had locked down and they still do, sure,

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but apps or or mixed reality apps or are augmented

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reality apps? Right, what do you really need?

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Speaker 1: And so I thought Unity was that thing. In fact,

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I think you told me as much.

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Speaker 2: Well, so Unity was the what they used to build

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games for sure, and absent experiences for uh, for virtual

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reality right where you own all the pixels. Unity is

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great for that and and Meta had a partnership. I'm

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sure it still does with Unity. And you know, one

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of the outputs from the Unity ide was, Hey, I

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want to target something for the quest. But when it

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comes to augmented reality, you know, the the hardware you

319
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get on a pair of glasses or the hardware they

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were projecting or you know, uh dreaming of right, was

321
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going to be a lot smaller. It's way too small

322
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to run something big like Unity, right, so wise, yeah,

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so we were we were looking for something, you know,

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much smaller that you could you know, get the performance

325
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and and still figure and still build the experiences at

326
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the same time inventing what those experiences would be. Right,

327
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what do people really want? What? What's the killer app

328
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if you were for for your glasses? Right?

329
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Speaker 1: So, really, what you're talking about is an app that

330
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you can run on the glasses or the goggles or

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whatever that lets you build the experience on them, not

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on a PC.

333
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Speaker 2: No no, no, no, no, no no, you build the

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experiences on a PC.

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Speaker 1: Oh you do, okay, that.

336
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Speaker 2: Target the app? Oh yeah, but you are trying to

337
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do the twolling. Yeah yeah, yeah.

338
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Speaker 3: But if you think you need to paint a vision

339
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before you know what to build a tool. So for me,

340
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the thing I've been struggling with with AR is what

341
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is the information workers app? You know, what is the

342
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word in Excel that needs a augmented reality?

343
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Speaker 2: Yeah? So, and of course that is that is a question.

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That's the killer app for me. The killer app I want.

345
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I want the terminator vision, right right. I want to

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walk around and just see all this extra metadata, have

347
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your reality augmented, that's right. I want you know, Oh,

348
00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:51,640
I'm great with faces, but terrible with names. Help me understand.

349
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As I approach this person, write what they're remind me

350
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of their name. And the last time we talked, they.

351
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Speaker 1: Had that in the seventies. It was called LSD.

352
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Speaker 2: That's great.

353
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Speaker 1: It wasn't necessarily accurate information, but.

354
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Speaker 3: If you made sure the person you're talking to was

355
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taking it too, they didn't care.

356
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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so you can think of LSD. I mean

357
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the other part the reason one of the things I

358
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cared about was I want useful information. I don't. I

359
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didn't want it to be just you know, this stream

360
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of ads shooting shouting it to you from all the

361
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places around me. Right, yep.

362
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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's there, and therein lies the challenge, right, So

363
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what's the business model? But I do think it's a

364
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very challenging space. Like every time I dig into industrial applications,

365
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like I've looked at some of the HoloLens applications where

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they're working on expensive machines and the fact that the

367
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software can exactly that augment these are the steps to

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do this maintenance, and then also keeps a detail video

369
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record of them doing it correctly, like when you're working

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on a fifty dollars million dollar machine doing a five

371
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million dollar maintenance. A five thousand dollar our headset isn't

372
00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:03,440
a big deal. Now it's not. But that's very much

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that vertical industry, that certain verticals that makes sense. It's

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not a consumer product.

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Speaker 2: Well it was interesting too because while I was there,

376
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we were definitely focused on the consumer space, but every

377
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one of our competitors had already transitioned to the enterprise space,

378
00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:27,119
right Hollo Lens was enterprise and government, and Google Glass

379
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was enterprise and and Magical Leap who knew what they

380
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were doing. And then you know, Meta was very focused

381
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on consumers, and of course, you know they always happen, right,

382
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I mean, that's just in the DNA of the company.

383
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Product's always been.

384
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Speaker 1: And they changed their name to Meta presumably to promote

385
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this idea of the metaverse where they thought that everything

386
00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:55,599
was going. Did they think they would be there by now?

387
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Speaker 2: Oh yes, for sure, And in fact, in many ways

388
00:20:00,039 --> 00:20:03,039
as they are. I mean they are easily the number

389
00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:06,440
one VR headsind right. They keep pumping out better and

390
00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:11,839
better quests, and the games are really great. They're a

391
00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:13,519
ton of fun, and they get they get better with

392
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their regeneration. But the thing that they kind of had

393
00:20:20,599 --> 00:20:24,000
a kind of unexpected hit in was the fitness apps.

394
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And I understand this myself, right, I mean, exercise has

395
00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:33,000
traditionally been something I do not enjoy, and so if

396
00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,720
because it's just boring, right, and so the nice thing

397
00:20:36,759 --> 00:20:39,599
about the Quest is, you know you can do all

398
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:43,319
kinds of amazing things that are actually good for you, right,

399
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:48,680
You have fun, you're you're mentally engaged, and and and

400
00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:53,279
and so they are easily the number one in that space.

401
00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:58,559
And then nobody's really done the ar thing yet. I mean,

402
00:21:00,039 --> 00:21:06,880
Apple's Apple what Apple Vision is, uh? What It's it's

403
00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:11,720
mixed reality, right, Essentially it's Google goggles, not Googles goggles,

404
00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:14,319
right where they own every pixel and then they use

405
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,400
cameras to bring it in so it looks like you're

406
00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:19,359
augmenting the world around you.

407
00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:20,599
Speaker 1: It's like Mad Quest too.

408
00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:24,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, and medical the Quest does that as well, right,

409
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:28,960
I mean, although you know the vastly different price point,

410
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:33,359
but nobody's gotten anything close to what you really want,

411
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,480
which is you know, os running on the glasses, right.

412
00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean you want it self contained, but

413
00:21:39,279 --> 00:21:43,359
there's always that debate of you know what, what's actually necessary.

414
00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:47,799
I remember seeing the early prototypes of the HoloLens. They

415
00:21:47,839 --> 00:21:51,759
called the gargoyle because which is straight William Gibson, you

416
00:21:51,759 --> 00:21:54,519
know the bridge quote, Because when you put that thing on,

417
00:21:54,559 --> 00:21:57,240
you look like a gargin painting, right, Like it's just

418
00:21:57,279 --> 00:21:59,400
a set of cables running down your back, like it

419
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:00,000
was a monster.

420
00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:02,519
Speaker 2: Well, and that was the That was one of the

421
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:07,400
tensions too, which is mr is a great kind of

422
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,319
you know, stepping stone to ar right, because it helps

423
00:22:12,319 --> 00:22:16,720
you build out the experiences, but you are by definition

424
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,559
limited to those people who are willing to walk around

425
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the world with those china And.

426
00:22:22,519 --> 00:22:24,839
Speaker 1: I guess that's that's what I was getting at when

427
00:22:25,039 --> 00:22:27,240
I asked if we were at the vision of the

428
00:22:27,279 --> 00:22:29,720
metaverse yet. I mean, yeah, you can put the goggles on,

429
00:22:29,759 --> 00:22:31,559
and you can exercise, and you can have fun and

430
00:22:31,559 --> 00:22:34,799
play games, but that's not where I live. I live

431
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,160
in front of my monitor on my desktop computer, you

432
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:41,200
know what I mean? Absolutely, I don't. I can't. I

433
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:42,880
can't wear that thing for more than an hour at

434
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:44,599
a time because it just hurts.

435
00:22:44,799 --> 00:22:47,039
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, yeah yeah, And of course that's because

436
00:22:47,079 --> 00:22:50,400
of the weight, and it's because, I mean, for a

437
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:53,759
lot of people, although this is less true over time

438
00:22:53,799 --> 00:22:55,359
as the graphics get faster.

439
00:22:55,559 --> 00:23:00,400
Speaker 2: Had trouble with sickness, right, and you know me, time

440
00:23:00,559 --> 00:23:03,279
I put it on, the first thing I did was

441
00:23:03,319 --> 00:23:08,000
reflexively looked for my hands right, were my hands right?

442
00:23:08,039 --> 00:23:10,319
And then of course after that I wanted my keyboard

443
00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:13,400
ring front of me, as you correctly point out, Carl, right,

444
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:17,319
I mean, but just to be clear, that stuff isn't

445
00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:21,359
for us, right, all of our reflexes that we've built

446
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:24,559
up over a lifetime. Hey, you know, Richards started in

447
00:23:24,599 --> 00:23:27,200
the back of a radio shack and has been building

448
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:31,319
on those same muscles ever since. This technology isn't for us, right,

449
00:23:32,079 --> 00:23:35,319
will die, and the next generation will take the new

450
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:39,000
technology and develop their own muscles around it, and they'll

451
00:23:39,039 --> 00:23:42,079
grow up with with whatever it is. Now. I would

452
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:47,440
argue that the VR stuff has not made it into

453
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:51,839
a place where it's useful for you know, a place

454
00:23:51,839 --> 00:23:53,519
where you live. As you put it, Carl, that's a

455
00:23:53,559 --> 00:23:55,960
really good way to say it. Right. It's not the

456
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:59,880
place where people live, and I don't think it ever

457
00:24:00,079 --> 00:24:03,359
will be. I just don't think that that kind of

458
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,359
bulk on your face is something that people want. If

459
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:10,599
I could, yeah, but if we actually when when we

460
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,680
get too smart glasses not if I believe it is

461
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,799
absolutely a win. I think people will live in those

462
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:17,880
for sure. Yeah.

463
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:21,359
Speaker 1: I use immersed with the quest you know about Immersed.

464
00:24:22,599 --> 00:24:24,920
So this is something that you connect either via USB

465
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,920
or Bluetooth to your computer and you get your computer

466
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,720
screen in a virtual world, and you can add multiple

467
00:24:32,759 --> 00:24:36,279
screens to windows and put them wherever you want. And

468
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:40,480
also you get to draw these portals, which are holes

469
00:24:40,519 --> 00:24:44,119
in the space time fabric. Right, try a little square

470
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,359
where your keyboard is. You can see your hands. And

471
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,079
so this is a really good thing. I love using

472
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,680
it with a laptop in a hotel room if I

473
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:56,920
really want to, you know, do some real work instead

474
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,640
of you know, being confined to the screen. It's got

475
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:03,759
its drawbacks, but I like it. Interesting cool program. Jeff

476
00:25:03,759 --> 00:25:04,759
Fritz told me about it.

477
00:25:04,799 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 2: I really like it. I like that idea where you

478
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,799
can you can like move your head over here and

479
00:25:09,839 --> 00:25:12,680
that's where the hotel TV is and you can you

480
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:16,200
can carve out a spot in your in your That's

481
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,000
a really clever way to do it, right.

482
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, the quality for watching TV or video is not there,

483
00:25:22,079 --> 00:25:24,599
especially in low light, but you know it's getting better.

484
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:26,640
It's a good idea, good enough for me to see

485
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:27,960
the keyboard and mouse.

486
00:25:27,759 --> 00:25:30,359
Speaker 2: Well, and that's the it's stuff like this. That's where

487
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,319
the reason I I thought, I the reason I was

488
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,920
excited about the technology is I uh, because you know,

489
00:25:38,079 --> 00:25:42,359
you look at you know, web, the web, and it's

490
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,599
pretty much done, right. We know how to do things

491
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:46,119
on the web, and there haven't been a lot of

492
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:48,759
innovations there. And before that, the desktop has been done

493
00:25:48,759 --> 00:25:50,720
for a long time. And and now you look at

494
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,240
mobile and it's done too, right, I mean, there's not

495
00:25:53,319 --> 00:25:56,480
a lot of innovations in terms of user experience and

496
00:25:56,799 --> 00:25:59,440
new ways of doing things. And so I looked at

497
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:06,359
AR specifically but VR two as kind of the next

498
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:11,039
generation of user experience for computers, right, I mean, a

499
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:14,680
new way of doing thing. Turns out I was completely wrong,

500
00:26:15,839 --> 00:26:18,079
and I think everyone was. It turns out that the

501
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:23,640
new way of interacting with computers is AI is generative

502
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:25,880
AI and LLMS. Yeah.

503
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,920
Speaker 1: Before we jump into that, though, I really need to

504
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,920
point out that Chris, for our listeners that don't know,

505
00:26:32,039 --> 00:26:36,079
was instrumental in the success of dot net rocks. And

506
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:40,319
he may not think so, but back when bandwidth was expensive,

507
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,519
I was asking my friends and Chris was one of them, Hey,

508
00:26:44,519 --> 00:26:46,480
is there anything that you can think of to help

509
00:26:46,559 --> 00:26:49,960
us alleviate this bandwidth bill? And Chris was working at

510
00:26:50,079 --> 00:26:53,839
MSTN in Microsoft, and I think you said, I literally

511
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:57,440
walked over to somebody whose name I can't remember and said, Hey,

512
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:00,319
can we help out Carl with maybe like a fee

513
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,079
on our website? And that's exactly what they did. There

514
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,759
was an alternate feed RSS feed for the podcast on

515
00:27:06,799 --> 00:27:10,240
the MSDN website for a while, so thank you for that.

516
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,799
Speaker 2: That was Sarah Williams, my boss at MSDN, and she

517
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:18,519
was always a big fan of the community and helping

518
00:27:18,559 --> 00:27:21,839
out the community, and she was one of the actual

519
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,240
before she took over MSDN, she was one of the

520
00:27:24,279 --> 00:27:29,920
original evangelists at Microsoft and kind of started up all

521
00:27:30,039 --> 00:27:33,880
the programs that we know and love in terms of

522
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,359
not just Microsoft, but how modern technology works, in terms

523
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,960
of developer relations and developer evangelism and that whole way

524
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,160
of doing things. Sarah Williams was one of the people

525
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,279
who invented all that for the Windows ecosystem. Yeah, back

526
00:27:47,319 --> 00:27:47,759
in the day.

527
00:27:47,839 --> 00:27:51,160
Speaker 1: There's another story about that feed, the MSDN feed. I

528
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,319
can't remember what year this was, must have been nineteen no, no, no,

529
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:59,279
two thousand and three, maybe two thousand and three. So

530
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,960
I did. I had an interview with the Guelda Kaza

531
00:28:03,279 --> 00:28:05,680
And this was back when you know, Linux was the

532
00:28:05,799 --> 00:28:09,759
enemy and all of this stuff. Microsoft had not yet

533
00:28:09,799 --> 00:28:11,680
embraced open source or Linux or any of.

534
00:28:11,599 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 2: That open sources of virus.

535
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:16,839
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it was. It was deeply embedded in the

536
00:28:16,839 --> 00:28:21,480
corporate culture and so they did not list that episode

537
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:22,160
in their feet.

538
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,400
Speaker 2: It seems so silly now, right. That was the first

539
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,799
time for us. It was like, hey, this show didn't appear.

540
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, sorry about that.

541
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 2: Oh it's funny too. Sarah was a shield for me

542
00:28:39,839 --> 00:28:44,440
when I joined because probably the most popular part of

543
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:49,599
my website was the Interview question section where Microsoft interview Questions,

544
00:28:49,599 --> 00:28:52,480
where I would just collect questions that people would ask,

545
00:28:52,519 --> 00:28:55,519
these silly questions. You know. It all started with wire

546
00:28:58,079 --> 00:29:00,680
and into madness after that, and as soon as I

547
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,880
joined Microsoft, somebody reached out to Stara and was like,

548
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:06,519
make him take all of that stuff down off of

549
00:29:06,559 --> 00:29:10,319
his website now he works for us, to have him

550
00:29:10,319 --> 00:29:13,559
take it down or fire his ass and She's like, nope, No,

551
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,680
that's his website, that's his personal stuff. Leave him alone,

552
00:29:16,799 --> 00:29:18,240
and that's not how we do things.

553
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 1: That's right, great, great memories.

554
00:29:20,599 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 2: All right, let's take a break.

555
00:29:21,759 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll be right back after these very important messages. Hey,

556
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:27,640
dot net six is going to reach the end of

557
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:30,839
support this November, and now is the time to upgrade.

558
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:35,039
Dot Net eight is well supported on AWS. Learn more

559
00:29:35,079 --> 00:29:42,240
at aws dot Amazon dot com, slash dot net and

560
00:29:42,279 --> 00:29:44,680
we're back. This is dot NetRocks. I'm Carl Franklin, that

561
00:29:44,799 --> 00:29:48,720
is Richard Campbell, and that is our friend Chris Sells.

562
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,440
And just before we jump back in, I got to

563
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:53,640
remind you that if you don't want to hear those ads,

564
00:29:54,319 --> 00:29:56,839
you can get an ad free feed by becoming a

565
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,880
five dollars month patron at Patreon dot dot net rocks

566
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:04,119
dot com. Chris, before I derailed the conversation, you were

567
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,200
talking about AI as sort of the next thing that

568
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,559
you were getting into. But you're retired now, so how

569
00:30:09,559 --> 00:30:14,079
does AI sort of fit in your post workday life.

570
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:20,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, like I say, I retired in June, and

571
00:30:20,599 --> 00:30:24,920
before that, I spent a year as head of product

572
00:30:25,319 --> 00:30:30,400
at a little at a little startup doing generative AI

573
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,039
and dev tools and it was, honestly, it was an

574
00:30:33,079 --> 00:30:39,319
opportunity I could not turn down. Steve vah of from

575
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:43,440
Amazon Cloud and Google Cloud kind of drug me into it.

576
00:30:43,559 --> 00:30:47,680
And the name of the company is source Graph and

577
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:51,079
they build uh search product, which they have been doing

578
00:30:51,119 --> 00:30:55,039
for eleven years, and it's amazing and scalable and you know,

579
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,799
millions of lines of code and hundreds of thousands of

580
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:03,279
super repositories, all instantly available at your fingertips. And what

581
00:31:03,319 --> 00:31:06,640
they did was they took all of that search ability

582
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:08,599
that because they get not only going to do like

583
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:12,839
literal search and regular expression search, but they do semantic search.

584
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,960
They really understand your code. You can configure it so

585
00:31:16,039 --> 00:31:20,039
it knows about your c sharp code and your Dark code,

586
00:31:20,039 --> 00:31:22,640
and your Java code and your Python. It knows. It

587
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,279
has semantic knowledge, right, it knows the types and the

588
00:31:25,359 --> 00:31:28,680
relationship between the types, and you can navigate in their product.

589
00:31:29,359 --> 00:31:32,039
And so it takes all of that semantic knowledge, and

590
00:31:32,079 --> 00:31:36,319
they what they did was they they built out a

591
00:31:36,359 --> 00:31:39,960
product called Cody and source graph Codey is an AI

592
00:31:40,079 --> 00:31:44,119
coding assistant that lives in your ID. It works in

593
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:46,680
all of the jet brain's IDEs. It works in visual

594
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,920
studio code, and it does chat and it does you

595
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:54,079
know commands, and it does you know autocompletions, and it

596
00:31:54,079 --> 00:31:56,759
does all the things you would expect, but it does

597
00:31:56,839 --> 00:32:02,559
it in an environment where for the enterprises, with all

598
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,400
of those hundreds of thousands of repositories and millions of

599
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,920
lines of code, it brings those and that understanding of

600
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:13,519
that into your into your chats, right into your use

601
00:32:13,599 --> 00:32:18,200
of the AI. And just I mean that's how I

602
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,039
spent uh, Like I say, I spent about that last

603
00:32:21,079 --> 00:32:24,920
year of my career. And then and then in June,

604
00:32:25,119 --> 00:32:29,000
I was I did the math and figured out how

605
00:32:29,039 --> 00:32:32,880
long I'd been in in this career, and I thought,

606
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,519
maybe it's time take a deep breath, right, step back,

607
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:41,559
do something else. And uh, uh, you know, I've been

608
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,400
super lucky. I've got gotten to do amazing things in

609
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,119
my career. And I looked back over my career and

610
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,759
I thought, you know, I don't want to jump back

611
00:32:51,799 --> 00:32:55,000
into some you know, executive role. I don't want to

612
00:32:55,079 --> 00:32:57,359
jump back into some high level PM role. I've done

613
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,119
that enough. I really miss Carl. You and I the

614
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,319
same page. I don't write enough code in a in

615
00:33:03,359 --> 00:33:06,400
a week, I start to get itchy. Right, And It's

616
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,160
been a long time where since I've had a job

617
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,200
where writing code was was part of it, right, And

618
00:33:12,279 --> 00:33:16,240
so so I I look back over my career and

619
00:33:16,279 --> 00:33:19,079
I thought, where was I having the most fun? Right, Well,

620
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:22,359
you know, maybe I can start doing that again, right,

621
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,319
And it was it was very much working on the

622
00:33:25,319 --> 00:33:28,480
Flutter team, but a bunch of the stuff that I

623
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,400
would do evenings and weekends right where I would you know,

624
00:33:31,839 --> 00:33:34,079
go and give talks or be on podcasts and talk

625
00:33:34,119 --> 00:33:36,920
about the technology, or where I would you know, build

626
00:33:37,119 --> 00:33:40,759
libraries and samples and kind of you know, help fix

627
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:46,759
developers uh lives, you know, more directly as opposed to, hey,

628
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:51,559
let me understand their requirements and motivate the the pms.

629
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:53,240
You know that worked for me to go and blah

630
00:33:53,279 --> 00:33:55,559
blah blah. Right, I mean it was more direct and

631
00:33:55,599 --> 00:34:01,000
in fact, I invented the routing package that that Flutter uses,

632
00:34:01,119 --> 00:34:04,759
and the Flutter team now owns and and is kind

633
00:34:04,759 --> 00:34:07,960
of their default experience, and that kind of stuff was

634
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,760
all evenings and weekends, and I thought, maybe if I

635
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:15,559
could do that again, And so I send some emails

636
00:34:15,599 --> 00:34:17,440
out to some of my friends on the Flutter team

637
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,760
and now I'm up to my eyeballs building AI related

638
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:26,480
things for the Flutter and Firebase team. You know, you'd

639
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,559
never know I was retired based on the amount of

640
00:34:29,559 --> 00:34:32,480
work I've been doing lately. But it's been all hands on.

641
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,440
Last week I was in New York giving a talk

642
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,440
on something called the Flutter AI Toolkit, which is something

643
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:45,239
I've been I've been building with Google, which is all about, Hey,

644
00:34:45,519 --> 00:34:48,320
you want to take you know, a Flutter widget, and

645
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:52,639
that is a whole AI chat, multimodal AI chat pluggable

646
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,559
ll M out of the box support for the Google LMS.

647
00:34:57,559 --> 00:34:59,800
You drop it into your app and then you hook

648
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:01,400
it up to the data in your app, and you

649
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,079
hook the output out so that you can consume it

650
00:35:04,119 --> 00:35:07,079
in your app, and suddenly, bang, you can take any

651
00:35:07,119 --> 00:35:11,239
app and just make it better by you know, this

652
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:15,480
interaction with AI. And what I've seen is and I

653
00:35:15,519 --> 00:35:19,639
started the I mean, I I wanted to build the

654
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:30,320
simplest possible demo for this talk. And so I wanted

655
00:35:30,559 --> 00:35:34,159
a recipe app, right, I started with It's just it's

656
00:35:34,199 --> 00:35:36,480
just a list of recipes, that's all it is. And

657
00:35:36,519 --> 00:35:38,239
you can add them and edit them. Right, it's a

658
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:40,320
crud interface over your recipes.

659
00:35:40,679 --> 00:35:43,760
Speaker 1: You can scale them, obviously, this is the best thing

660
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:44,800
about a recipe app.

661
00:35:45,079 --> 00:35:47,519
Speaker 2: You can search them whatever. Right, And so it's just

662
00:35:47,559 --> 00:35:51,719
the baarest minimum thing, so classic. But then you just

663
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:55,159
drop in the chat and you hook up the data

664
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:57,679
and you can start seeing things like, oh, these are

665
00:35:57,679 --> 00:36:00,199
my food prefences. Can you give me a verse of

666
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:03,960
that recipe substituting all the things or go and you know,

667
00:36:04,079 --> 00:36:08,199
give me a recipe from your training set that matches

668
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,599
my uh, you know, food preferences and you know the

669
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:13,880
I'll take a picture of what's in my fridge and

670
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,840
my cupboard, or I'll take a picture of you know,

671
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,719
a recipe card that my grandma gave me, and you know,

672
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,199
parselll that and give it to me in structured way

673
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:24,679
and show it as a flutter widget in line with

674
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,440
the conversation and press a button and boom, now it's

675
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:32,039
in your database and circle all of these features where

676
00:36:33,199 --> 00:36:35,519
you know that you get by just dropping in an

677
00:36:35,639 --> 00:36:39,400
ll M and having a normal conversation in a multimodal way,

678
00:36:40,119 --> 00:36:42,599
and just doing a little bit of input and output

679
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,280
between the data in your app and the data in

680
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:49,559
this chat, and suddenly you get an app is ten

681
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,960
times more powerful, right because it does the ll M

682
00:36:53,199 --> 00:36:56,760
is implementing all of these features. That's the amazing thing.

683
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,679
And I like, I like, I like it from it.

684
00:36:59,679 --> 00:37:03,079
Speaker 3: It's a feature extender, right, that's right, really a new

685
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,639
ux to the way that you build software. I think

686
00:37:06,639 --> 00:37:10,039
it's not an app unto itself. It's just this ability

687
00:37:10,119 --> 00:37:12,719
to make an app way more compelling. It really kind

688
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:15,960
of answer hard questions like what substitution is going to

689
00:37:16,039 --> 00:37:16,400
make here?

690
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 2: Or that's right? And it's got the because it's been

691
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,880
trained on the entire internet. Not only right, does it

692
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:26,639
have all of the stack overflow in it if I

693
00:37:26,679 --> 00:37:29,239
want to generate code, but it's got all of the

694
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:33,079
recipes from all of the recipe sites around the Internet

695
00:37:33,159 --> 00:37:34,840
in it, and so I can just say give me

696
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:36,800
a recipe with X, Y and Z, and it just

697
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:39,679
knows yeah, right, and then you can tell it oh

698
00:37:39,679 --> 00:37:42,280
and you know, behind the scenes, you can do some

699
00:37:44,079 --> 00:37:47,079
you know, prompt engineering, so that the recipes come out

700
00:37:47,119 --> 00:37:50,840
in a structured Jason format so your app can parse it,

701
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:52,840
and you can add a little button that says here,

702
00:37:53,199 --> 00:37:56,079
bring this over to my database. Or when you're doing

703
00:37:56,119 --> 00:37:59,320
the output, you do a little post processing on what

704
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:03,079
the user has entered to enable RAG right, right retrieval,

705
00:38:03,159 --> 00:38:06,880
augmented generation. Let me look up recipes from the current

706
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,960
database and plug those in as appropriate and send those

707
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:14,440
as input. I mean, it is so amazing how a

708
00:38:14,639 --> 00:38:18,480
little bit of glue with this fundamental building block and

709
00:38:18,559 --> 00:38:22,079
suddenly you get all of these features that now is

710
00:38:22,119 --> 00:38:25,480
a app dep I mean, just that one feature right

711
00:38:25,559 --> 00:38:30,920
before llms of let me scan a recipe card for

712
00:38:31,039 --> 00:38:35,039
my grandmother's you know, stack to recipe cards, right, that

713
00:38:35,079 --> 00:38:38,280
would have been I don't know, six engineers for a year.

714
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:41,639
Speaker 1: Well, using OCR, you could do it, but you have

715
00:38:41,679 --> 00:38:44,000
to do a lot of logic to figure out what's what.

716
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,199
Speaker 2: Well, except for my grandmother hand writes all of her

717
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:51,000
recipe cards, right, good luck with OCR and that whereas

718
00:38:51,039 --> 00:38:54,199
I can hand it to the LM and it just works.

719
00:38:54,199 --> 00:38:56,559
I don't have to do In fact, I don't even

720
00:38:56,599 --> 00:38:58,920
as an engineer building the app I don't have to

721
00:38:59,119 --> 00:39:02,199
do anything that's just a feature that comes along out

722
00:39:02,199 --> 00:39:04,599
of the box because we're using ll ms. And that's

723
00:39:04,639 --> 00:39:07,559
why I say, as you you know, I thought the

724
00:39:07,599 --> 00:39:10,119
next way that we were going to interact with computers

725
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:13,800
was going to be these you know, three D interfaces

726
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:19,320
user interfaces. It turns out that no, it's a textbox.

727
00:39:19,679 --> 00:39:21,320
It's a textbox, right.

728
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 3: I mean I would also argue they had the breakthrough, right, like,

729
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:26,440
we're still looking for the AR breakthrough.

730
00:39:26,639 --> 00:39:28,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. I think.

731
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,119
Speaker 3: Was the killer app. It was the breakthrough. That was

732
00:39:33,119 --> 00:39:35,199
a breakthrough, and and then I open the door to

733
00:39:35,199 --> 00:39:37,920
a bunch of other things. They're not mutually exclusive. I

734
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:43,559
think AR will benefit hugely by the context sensitivity, likely

735
00:39:43,679 --> 00:39:48,760
next behavior, probabilistic behaviors that all these language models have, like,

736
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:52,519
all of that will make that product experience better. Once

737
00:39:52,559 --> 00:39:54,519
we find the breakthrough that's going to make people care

738
00:39:54,559 --> 00:39:55,559
because we that's right.

739
00:39:56,159 --> 00:40:00,159
Speaker 2: And you know, environment generation, right, I mean, let the

740
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:04,000
LLM build up an environment around you. In fact, I

741
00:40:04,039 --> 00:40:07,159
don't know if you've seen this, they actually I think

742
00:40:07,159 --> 00:40:10,679
it was the DeepMind team at Google. They have got

743
00:40:10,679 --> 00:40:16,679
a trained a model that will generate as you move around,

744
00:40:18,599 --> 00:40:23,400
they will generate thirty frames a second of Doom, meaning

745
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:27,199
they've trained it on Doom. It's not using the game engine,

746
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:29,079
the game is not loaded or running.

747
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:31,840
Speaker 1: You just discovered a new use for all the old

748
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:33,719
shopping malls that are abandoned.

749
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 2: We can go play Doom in them.

750
00:40:37,639 --> 00:40:38,599
Speaker 1: It's so cool.

751
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:44,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the potential for generative AI. And that's

752
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:46,960
one of the points I covered in my talk, the

753
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,320
core difference. Because of course we've been doing AI for

754
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:52,599
long enough, decades, long enough. We've now had been through

755
00:40:52,679 --> 00:40:55,920
two AI winters, right is what the AI research community

756
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:57,679
calls them. We've been doing it for a long time.

757
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:02,639
We've benefited, right, But there's all kinds of amazing stuff

758
00:41:02,679 --> 00:41:06,480
we've got from AI. But genitive AI is the first

759
00:41:06,559 --> 00:41:09,480
AI that will give us new content. Right was before

760
00:41:09,519 --> 00:41:11,480
it was like here, let me give you some content.

761
00:41:11,559 --> 00:41:14,760
You analyze it, and you know, you tell me you

762
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:16,880
know as a cat or a dog, or you tell

763
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:21,599
me you know, the next number might be a six, whatever.

764
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:25,679
But this, this is the first time where you can

765
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:31,000
actually give it some parameters and have it generate anything.

766
00:41:31,119 --> 00:41:34,519
Language like, it doesn't have to be a human language.

767
00:41:34,519 --> 00:41:36,360
It can be code. It can be adjacent. It can

768
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,559
be music, it can be anything that is kind of

769
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:43,119
has a you know, a description that you can run

770
00:41:43,159 --> 00:41:46,519
through an ll M. It is amazing. And of course images, Carl,

771
00:41:46,519 --> 00:41:50,119
you bring that up right. Being able to generate you know,

772
00:41:50,159 --> 00:41:55,320
stable diffusion and generating images, it is a completely different

773
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:57,400
way to interact with the computer.

774
00:41:57,480 --> 00:41:59,760
Speaker 3: There's a challenging step for your recipe app tell me

775
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:01,679
what this will look like when it's cooked.

776
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:05,599
Speaker 2: Well, actually, that's that's part of it, right, being able

777
00:42:05,639 --> 00:42:08,639
to say, hey, and I'll give you a picture of

778
00:42:08,639 --> 00:42:09,480
what this recipe is.

779
00:42:09,679 --> 00:42:12,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, did I or you know, take a photo?

780
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:14,440
Did I make this ride like that?

781
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 2: Is that other thing? Being able to say no, maybe not,

782
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:19,599
that's not how it's supposed to look.

783
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:23,039
Speaker 1: I like the idea of taking the recipes from the internet,

784
00:42:23,079 --> 00:42:27,199
plus all the comments and saying, you know, which version

785
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:28,960
of this are people the most happy with?

786
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:32,760
Speaker 2: For example, yeah, well, one of the things the LM

787
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,280
can't do is taste it for you, unfortunately, right so,

788
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:35,559
but it.

789
00:42:35,559 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 1: Can read the comments in the rate.

790
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 2: It has definitely given me several recipes that I do

791
00:42:41,599 --> 00:42:44,599
not think any humans would actually like to eat.

792
00:42:44,679 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 1: Oh yeah.

793
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:55,320
Speaker 3: The testing backbone that sort of you know, generate evaluate cycle. Say,

794
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:57,880
is this going to actually come out right like that?

795
00:42:58,559 --> 00:43:01,239
I think we're still tweaking into that. At certainly the

796
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:04,519
latest Microsoft announcement for their Wave too, there's been a

797
00:43:04,599 --> 00:43:08,159
lot of this, how do we make the software iterate

798
00:43:08,199 --> 00:43:11,760
a few more times to tune itself per request?

799
00:43:12,119 --> 00:43:15,280
Speaker 2: Well, and that's the thing, right because right now we're

800
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:21,119
we're doing AI in a way that is very much interactive, right,

801
00:43:21,159 --> 00:43:23,679
which is I go to a chat engine and I

802
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:26,760
say blah, or I invoke a feature in my piece

803
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:30,079
of software and it composes, you know, a chat request

804
00:43:30,119 --> 00:43:34,400
and goes to the LM. We're uh, we're moving to

805
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,719
a place that is agent based, yeah, right, where you

806
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:42,119
can say, hey, I want to I want Cody, which

807
00:43:42,159 --> 00:43:45,840
is the name of you know, source graphs AI coding assistant.

808
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,800
I want Cody to be a member of my team.

809
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:51,519
I want to give it a badge right at my company.

810
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,440
And I wanted to look at all of the the

811
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:56,880
bugs that come in and I wanted to do that

812
00:43:56,920 --> 00:44:00,559
initial triage. Is this an actionable bug? Does it give

813
00:44:00,559 --> 00:44:03,239
me an error message? Does it tell me about expected behavior?

814
00:44:03,559 --> 00:44:07,840
Does it have a minimal repro can I reproduce the bug? Right?

815
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:11,840
And if not, you know, automatically kick it back and

816
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:17,760
ask for additional information, or if you can reproduce it,

817
00:44:18,199 --> 00:44:22,440
take all of that information and then start doing like, hey,

818
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:24,360
what might be causing the bug in the state of

819
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:27,519
this in my codebase, and what are some suggested fixes

820
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:31,679
and stick all that in it, and then even maybe

821
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:34,320
being able to say, and here's a pr right, and

822
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:36,119
now let me put that in the queue for the

823
00:44:36,159 --> 00:44:40,119
engineers to get to. That's like eighty percent of the

824
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:42,960
work and it's all drudgery. Sure, right, Why do we

825
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,840
have engineers do that, right when we can have you know,

826
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:48,320
a software agent do that for us.

827
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:50,039
Speaker 3: That could take a lot of that on that's right,

828
00:44:50,119 --> 00:44:53,119
certainly over on the right as side, I've been talking

829
00:44:53,119 --> 00:44:56,119
to folks who are doing this with tech support tickets,

830
00:44:56,639 --> 00:45:01,519
where the tool now is analyzing the submitted ticket and

831
00:45:02,079 --> 00:45:04,719
there's a bunch of if it falls in a category

832
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:07,559
of automated responses, like we'll push back the responses and

833
00:45:07,599 --> 00:45:10,039
potentially resolve a tick on its own, but when it

834
00:45:10,079 --> 00:45:14,400
can't actually then goes and does data gathering to further

835
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:16,639
the process so that by the time it actually lands

836
00:45:16,639 --> 00:45:20,880
on a person, right, it's been worked over like that's right, yeah,

837
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:23,599
and it's just so that they're working on more meaningful work,

838
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:25,760
less toil, more meaningful work.

839
00:45:26,039 --> 00:45:31,280
Speaker 2: Well, and it's interesting too because you know the term

840
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:35,960
prompt engineer, right, got a bunch of chuckles from from people, you.

841
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:39,119
Speaker 3: Know when it's prompt engineer and crypto bro were said

842
00:45:39,119 --> 00:45:42,039
in the same voice, right, like that's the problem.

843
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:45,760
Speaker 2: But here's the thing, right, if you I mean this

844
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:47,880
was clear. I don't know if you if you've seen

845
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:51,679
what Anthropic has been doing with Claude, and you know

846
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:54,960
that they have this cool feature where I think it's

847
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:59,000
called artifacts, where as it generates code, it pulls those

848
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:01,519
out of the stream and sticks them over into like

849
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:04,119
you know, the right hand side with the code thing,

850
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:06,119
and then when it gets all the code, it actually

851
00:46:06,159 --> 00:46:10,360
runs it for you. When you get a preview. Somebody

852
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:16,199
leaked the implementation of that, and it read like, you know,

853
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:20,119
a spec that a PM would put together and hand

854
00:46:20,159 --> 00:46:22,320
over to an engineer and say can you build this

855
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:25,599
for me? Right? The amount of detail that you get,

856
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:28,559
it's like how you would talk to a human and

857
00:46:30,119 --> 00:46:34,079
get them to do it. Essentially, people have switched from

858
00:46:34,119 --> 00:46:39,760
writing programs in code to they're switching to writing them

859
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,519
in English. Here's what I want, go and give me

860
00:46:42,599 --> 00:46:46,960
a thing. And the beauty of that is everyone speaks

861
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:50,840
their language, right. I means suddenly anyone that can write

862
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:55,639
a precise or reasonably precise description of what they want

863
00:46:56,079 --> 00:46:57,880
can get it and they don't need an engineer to

864
00:46:57,960 --> 00:46:58,239
do it.

865
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:01,519
Speaker 3: I like LMZ on both ends, where you just write

866
00:47:01,519 --> 00:47:03,360
a quick set of bullet points for what you want.

867
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:06,199
It turns it into fancy pros to asperson for it,

868
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:08,440
who then us an LLM to strip out the fancy

869
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:09,599
prose to get the bullet points.

870
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:13,840
Speaker 2: Of what you want. It's funny to say that. Yeah,

871
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:15,679
it's like, I don't want to read all this summarize

872
00:47:15,679 --> 00:47:19,400
it for me. There have definitely been instances where I'm like, hey,

873
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:24,079
I need a proposal, I need a a performance review,

874
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:27,880
I need a you know, a statement of work. I

875
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:31,840
need this long drawn out document right to fulfill a requirement.

876
00:47:32,559 --> 00:47:36,239
But you know, really I just have the data that

877
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:38,639
I care about in bulleted form. You know, let me

878
00:47:39,039 --> 00:47:41,960
let me let the LLM do that first past, yeah,

879
00:47:42,679 --> 00:47:44,920
to dress it up. Yeah yeah, yeah. And then of

880
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:47,559
course you know it's never good enough, right, you have

881
00:47:47,599 --> 00:47:49,760
to go through and edit it. But it's easier to

882
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:52,519
edit than create. So yeah, you know, well and that's

883
00:47:52,559 --> 00:47:56,920
the beauty, right. I mean, it's always easier to to

884
00:47:57,079 --> 00:48:00,280
subtract things out or edit as you say that, it

885
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:02,239
is to stare at a blank's piece of paper and

886
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:05,400
go Now, which how do I start this? Yeah, so

887
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:05,760
you can.

888
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:10,079
Speaker 1: As soon as you talked about Doom and AR and

889
00:48:10,159 --> 00:48:12,679
I made the joke that, you know, there's a good

890
00:48:12,679 --> 00:48:15,719
way to repurpose all these closed shopping malls. It was

891
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:18,719
a fun joke, but it just won't leave my brain.

892
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:23,960
Like you know, AR requires real space, you know, whereas

893
00:48:24,159 --> 00:48:27,440
VR you can. I can see us getting close to

894
00:48:27,559 --> 00:48:31,920
the Ready player one kind of circular walking, you know

895
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:34,639
pad that he was using in there.

896
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:37,159
Speaker 2: To Those are real things. I've been on one of those.

897
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:39,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, so, I mean I remember they were the real

898
00:48:39,639 --> 00:48:40,639
things years ago.

899
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:45,440
Speaker 3: But there was a game on the HoloLens where the

900
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:48,639
aliens were attacking. Would they come through your walls? Oh yeah,

901
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:51,880
so map your surfaces and you'd literally see a crack

902
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:53,920
up here on the wall and the alien would pop.

903
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:56,199
Speaker 1: Out of it. It quest has the same thing. Now, yeah,

904
00:48:56,239 --> 00:49:00,920
it's really cool, but AR requiring real space and VR

905
00:49:01,079 --> 00:49:04,559
not so, so what's the story there, do you think?

906
00:49:04,599 --> 00:49:07,039
I mean? Okay, so here's a good AR app, the

907
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:11,679
Pokemon Go app, right, hugely popular, requires real space.

908
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:15,920
Speaker 2: I would say that is that app is the only

909
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:18,039
successful AR app.

910
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:21,400
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, arguably because GPS anywhere, you can put these

911
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:25,280
things anywhere. Yeah, but what about you know, taking an

912
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:29,079
existing space and mapping AR around it.

913
00:49:29,119 --> 00:49:32,599
Speaker 2: Actually, one of the best VR experiences I ever had

914
00:49:33,519 --> 00:49:37,000
was I was in Vegas and they had taken a

915
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:41,960
two thousand square foot space, and they gave you a gun, right,

916
00:49:42,039 --> 00:49:44,039
a plastic gun, so you had something to pull the

917
00:49:44,039 --> 00:49:46,320
trigger on. They gave you the goggles, and they put

918
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:49,159
the computer in a backpack on your back, right, So

919
00:49:49,199 --> 00:49:51,800
you were now a soldier going into battle. And you

920
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:53,519
went with a bunch of other people and you could

921
00:49:53,559 --> 00:49:56,480
see them in this virtual world and they would march

922
00:49:56,519 --> 00:49:59,840
you around through the hallways and stairways and blah blah

923
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:03,239
bla in this virtual world. And the way they did it,

924
00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:07,719
it felt like a huge, vast space. But they were

925
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:10,480
just super clever about, you know, using the two thousand

926
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:16,159
square feet and reusing it. And definitely if you've got

927
00:50:16,159 --> 00:50:18,920
that kind of space, you can build some amazing things.

928
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:22,800
All that that said, I'm not sure I would be

929
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:26,920
super excited about going up and down the stairs in

930
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:29,920
an abandoned mall with goggles on my face.

931
00:50:30,079 --> 00:50:32,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, as long as you can see it. Yeah, let's

932
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:36,239
face it. Being in Vegas itself is augmented reality.

933
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:37,320
Speaker 2: Yes, very much so.

934
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:41,119
Speaker 3: Remember I used to play Own this World, yes, right

935
00:50:41,159 --> 00:50:43,159
before the game went away, and at one point I

936
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:44,760
actually owned the world.

937
00:50:45,159 --> 00:50:46,679
Speaker 2: He is making the world.

938
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:49,599
Speaker 3: Because I leveraged using the road trip to collect as

939
00:50:49,599 --> 00:50:51,559
many the whole world's cut up into squares.

940
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:54,840
Speaker 1: He was so so antisocial, sitting up in the passenger

941
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:57,159
seat the whole time, not talking to any of us,

942
00:50:57,199 --> 00:50:58,119
just playing on this World.

943
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:00,039
Speaker 2: The hell has owned this world. I don't know, I

944
00:51:00,079 --> 00:51:00,599
know what you're talking.

945
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:04,079
Speaker 3: It's long gone, long gone, but literally, but I was

946
00:51:04,119 --> 00:51:07,280
always frustated GPS type games, right, games where you're locale

947
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:09,559
mata Right. I did some geocaching and that kind of

948
00:51:09,599 --> 00:51:12,039
thing back in the early days, and On this World

949
00:51:12,079 --> 00:51:14,280
was an interim game. Was a game in a period

950
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:18,199
there that was fun. But you mentioned Pokemon Go, because

951
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:20,280
after On This World went away, I started looking for

952
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:22,719
a new game, and I found a game called Ingress,

953
00:51:23,159 --> 00:51:27,000
and Ingress is actually the precursor to Pokemon Go because

954
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:31,679
the big piece of data that made Pokemon work where

955
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:34,679
the Ingress location site. So this was a game about

956
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:39,199
again aliens invading sort of thing. But are they beneficial

957
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:41,199
or not? And so you picked a side, are you

958
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:43,880
working for them or against them? And what they were

959
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:47,000
mainly doing was using GPS to mark up significant locations

960
00:51:47,039 --> 00:51:53,280
in communities because those would become nodes in Ingress. Well,

961
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:56,280
when Pokemon Go appeared is from Niantic, the same team,

962
00:51:56,639 --> 00:51:58,719
and they basically use the data set from Ingress to

963
00:51:58,719 --> 00:51:59,880
create all the locations where.

964
00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:00,800
Speaker 2: The kemon here.

965
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:02,679
Speaker 1: Wow, so's it's.

966
00:52:02,519 --> 00:52:07,599
Speaker 3: Just suddenly had this valuable GPS data set of curated

967
00:52:07,679 --> 00:52:13,000
locations that they get carried to other games that I

968
00:52:13,039 --> 00:52:15,280
stopped playing all of those because who's got the time?

969
00:52:16,519 --> 00:52:18,840
Speaker 1: Patrick Hines plays Pokemon Go.

970
00:52:19,119 --> 00:52:22,519
Speaker 3: Pokemon It's one of those quiet be surprised. Lots of

971
00:52:22,519 --> 00:52:25,360
people play. It's a quiet little obsession, especially for travelers

972
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:28,000
because there are Pokemon that are specific geographies.

973
00:52:28,079 --> 00:52:32,760
Speaker 1: Well, there are lots of abandoned buildings now because of

974
00:52:33,039 --> 00:52:36,719
one of because of COVID, right office space is very

975
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:39,599
cheap right now. You can't give these buildings away in

976
00:52:39,639 --> 00:52:44,159
some cases, and certainly shopping malls aren't going anywhere, but

977
00:52:44,199 --> 00:52:47,519
they're at least in my neck of the woods, all

978
00:52:47,599 --> 00:52:51,239
but abandoned. And you know, everybody's trying to think of

979
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:52,880
something to do with the shopping mall. What do we

980
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:55,599
do with the shopping mall? And it just kind of

981
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:59,280
occurred to me that maybe some sort of AR future

982
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:01,719
thing I don't think work now, might work with a

983
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:06,360
hollow lens, but you know, I don't know, just sort

984
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:06,960
of occurred to me.

985
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:09,679
Speaker 3: It's an interesting idea to just have a safe build,

986
00:53:09,679 --> 00:53:11,840
a soft walled space, so people crash it and stuff,

987
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:15,320
they're not hurt, and you use AR to make it

988
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:17,079
into whatever game you want to play at the time.

989
00:53:17,519 --> 00:53:21,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, anyway, I think that's about it, Chris. You got

990
00:53:21,199 --> 00:53:22,920
anything else that's on your mind that you want to

991
00:53:23,199 --> 00:53:23,679
talk about?

992
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:26,239
Speaker 2: Well, the other thing that has been fun for me

993
00:53:28,039 --> 00:53:30,960
as I re engage with you know, the kind of

994
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:34,159
the most fun job I had in my life, but

995
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:36,679
from a you know, from a essentially I've been kind

996
00:53:36,679 --> 00:53:39,719
of doing DevRel related work, which you know, has always

997
00:53:39,719 --> 00:53:44,719
been my my heart and soul. Anyway, I have been

998
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:50,840
working with Rory Blake. He told me that, yeah, and

999
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:53,360
it has been a ton of fun. I mean, I

1000
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:56,480
have reconnected with the Flutter team, and you know, I

1001
00:53:56,559 --> 00:53:58,760
went to that conference last week and I couldn't walk

1002
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:00,679
five feet with that. Oh how you do it? And

1003
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:03,599
how you've been right? That is? That's been fantastic because

1004
00:54:03,639 --> 00:54:05,320
I have a lot of friends there in the community

1005
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:08,960
is wonderful and I just really love Flutter all around,

1006
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:12,960
not just the tech, but a nice community. That's right

1007
00:54:13,039 --> 00:54:17,920
for sure. But then I happened to be hanging out

1008
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:20,559
with Rory a little bit and I'm like, hey, you know,

1009
00:54:20,679 --> 00:54:22,880
you want to do some Flutter work with me, you know?

1010
00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:27,840
And he actually when I wanted to have like an

1011
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:31,400
existing app that I could drop chat into, because you know,

1012
00:54:31,639 --> 00:54:34,519
what's the point of helping people build whole new brand

1013
00:54:34,519 --> 00:54:38,280
news standalone chats? Right? Those exist there, you know, the

1014
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:42,239
vendors already have them. But being able to take your

1015
00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:45,039
existing app and drop in a chat, I think that

1016
00:54:45,159 --> 00:54:47,639
would be super useful and helpful. But I needed for

1017
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:51,360
my talk. I needed an app. I'm like, will you

1018
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:53,840
build this for me? And he did? I mean, it

1019
00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:56,280
was that was the app I used. He built that

1020
00:54:56,440 --> 00:55:00,280
initial recipes app for medoschool. He's been doing some he

1021
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:02,119
and I have been doing some fun work together and

1022
00:55:02,159 --> 00:55:04,760
it's just been it's just been really great to reconnect

1023
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:05,519
with Rory too.

1024
00:55:05,559 --> 00:55:07,440
Speaker 1: And I miss him. I keep in touch with him

1025
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:11,800
on texts and stuff. And apparently we were gonna he

1026
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:14,639
had another crazy idea to do something, and we almost

1027
00:55:14,639 --> 00:55:16,320
had a meeting about it, and then it kind of

1028
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:19,519
dropped by the wayside. I can't even remember what it

1029
00:55:19,559 --> 00:55:21,559
was right now, but he's he's just full of good ideas.

1030
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:27,199
Speaker 2: It was he was using llms to build. Actually, Rory

1031
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:32,599
has been using generative AI for like five or six years,

1032
00:55:33,039 --> 00:55:37,239
using kind of pre chat GTP oriented technology, and he's

1033
00:55:37,639 --> 00:55:41,599
he's found he is an amazing prompt engineer, right. He

1034
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:44,800
really best time to make an LLM sing and dance,

1035
00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:48,480
and so I've learned a ton of really cool tricks

1036
00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:52,280
from him. And it's all from using this technology prior

1037
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:56,039
where you had to be super specific. And he's built

1038
00:55:56,559 --> 00:56:00,440
whole command systems and and and he was using that

1039
00:56:00,559 --> 00:56:03,880
to build up the rules for in the world for

1040
00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:07,280
a tabletop RPG that he wanted to he wanted to

1041
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:09,400
run us through so fantastic.

1042
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:11,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what it was. It was a role playing game.

1043
00:56:11,199 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 2: Sounds like a show.

1044
00:56:12,519 --> 00:56:14,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, we could do a show with him. It be

1045
00:56:14,679 --> 00:56:15,400
fun to have him back.

1046
00:56:15,559 --> 00:56:16,679
Speaker 2: He totally should reach out to.

1047
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:22,400
Speaker 1: I miss him. I missed the blog too. I missed Neapoleon.

1048
00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:25,039
I understand why he had to shut it down because

1049
00:56:25,039 --> 00:56:27,320
people weren't taking him seriously as a developer, but man,

1050
00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:28,039
I miss him.

1051
00:56:28,119 --> 00:56:30,920
Speaker 2: It's so funny. Yeah, he's a great I mean, he

1052
00:56:31,039 --> 00:56:34,719
picked up Fluttering in like a week and he's been

1053
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:37,199
doing great stuff. So it's been really great to work

1054
00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:37,519
with him.

1055
00:56:37,599 --> 00:56:40,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, he is the one who coined using objectives. He

1056
00:56:40,239 --> 00:56:41,760
as Stockholm syndrome.

1057
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:49,320
Speaker 2: And he still loves it. He's still Yeah, he's okay

1058
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:51,079
with Stockholm syndrome apparently. Yeah, for sure.

1059
00:56:52,599 --> 00:56:55,440
Speaker 1: All right, Chris, it's been a gas and we'll we'll

1060
00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:57,320
have to keep in touch every so often.

1061
00:56:57,239 --> 00:57:00,639
Speaker 2: For sure. Happy to all right you guys. Later, Well,

1062
00:57:00,639 --> 00:57:02,920
we'll have to keep doing it. We'll have to. I mean,

1063
00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:06,719
we have to do this, right, I mean, eventually you'll

1064
00:57:06,719 --> 00:57:09,159
catch up with the present, right, You'll have Show twenty

1065
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:12,880
twenty four, and then you'll be podcasting from the future.

1066
00:57:13,079 --> 00:57:15,639
Speaker 1: That's where those are the we'll be making predictions.

1067
00:57:15,719 --> 00:57:18,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, that's where I want to make sure

1068
00:57:18,519 --> 00:57:20,280
I'm on those shows. All right. Cool?

1069
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:23,320
Speaker 1: Well, thanks again Chris, and for you, dear listener, We'll

1070
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:46,599
see you next time on dot net rocks. Dot net

1071
00:57:46,679 --> 00:57:49,599
Rocks is brought to you by Franklin's Net and produced

1072
00:57:49,599 --> 00:57:53,440
by Pop Studios, a full service audio, video and post

1073
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:57,599
production facility located physically in New London, Connecticut, and of

1074
00:57:57,639 --> 00:58:02,119
course in the cloud online it e w op dot com.

1075
00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:04,440
Visit our website at d O T N E t

1076
00:58:04,679 --> 00:58:08,719
R O c k S dot com for RSS feeds, downloads,

1077
00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:12,559
mobile apps, comments, and access to the full archives going

1078
00:58:12,599 --> 00:58:15,960
back to show number one, recorded in September two thousand

1079
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:18,639
and two. And make sure you check out our sponsors.

1080
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:21,840
They keep us in business. Now go write some code,

1081
00:58:22,159 --> 00:58:26,719
See you next time. You got jud Middle Vans doc