Speaker 1: What is up, fellows, Stickles, I am Dan Valley coming
at you with another twenty twenty four twenty twenty five
NBA look Ahead. We are on to the Detroit Pistons,
and as loyal listeners of the podcast know, that means
we get to talk to Laz Jackson. He's an editor
for Detroit Bad Boys. Go follow him on Twitter. The
link is in the podcast and YouTube description at Las Chance.
That's at laz Cha and Ce. We get into everything Pistons.
He's just one of the smartest minds out there. I
always appreciate these annual conversations with him, and he does
mention at the end that he might be doing at
some point this year, especially because he's back in the
Detroit market, some more writing, maybe some more podcasting. He is,
as anyone who's listening to this podcast knows, I've shout
him out previously when he would do his podcast and
some of his solo stuff like was just some of
the best I ever heard, especially from that solo host perspective.
So go follow him if you haven't already excited to
maybe get some more content from him that's not just
behind the scenes this coming year. That's all I got
for you, though, if you're new around here, consider subscribing,
Get on YouTube, get in the comments like help you Algorithm,
love us back, Spotify, Apple, the whole nine rock with
us throughout the entire regular season. Grant, I have a
ton of fun covering every single team. We think we
do it quite well around these parts. So let's get
to talking some Detroit Pistons with Laz Jackson. Laz, welcome
back to the Hardwine Knocks Podcast. I think we were
talking you might be in the double digits in terms
of appearances at this point. Well, this is your sixth
or seventh year of doing the look Aheads with me,
because you did a Central Division one back when we
broke it up that way, and I've had you on
independent of look Ahead, so this could be like your
tenth or something. But you've crossed the half decade threshold
on coming on this show.
Speaker 2: Yeah, now I feel old, old than I already felt before,
I suppose, But as always, it's great to be here.
I appreciate being experienced enough that you reach out to
me a year after year. It's like I'm very much
in my old man game in the content game right now.
So it's good to still know that I have the fastball.
Speaker 1: Though, I I'm happy you answer because of how much
of a mess to like all, like a lot of
our regulars, like no one's on I'm not on Twitter
as much like I promote the show. Sometimes I fire
off jokes and I leave just because of what it's become.
And so sometimes like I'm I have to wait a
certain amount because there were people that I love having
imp like they won't answer me for like one or
two weeks because they're just not on Twitter, and where
I'm just systatic that you still answer me, like these
past two years at Dicey where it's, oh, we're gonna
get answers from you know, they still on Twitter now.
Speaker 2: I mean I wish I could quit Twitter. That would
probably be better for me, honestly, but I can't. So
it's fine.
Speaker 1: It'd probably be better for us all, wouldn't. Yeah, I
would think the Detroit Pistons though, how we how we
feeling about just the the taudy of the offseason and
like every what they did with their cap space, They
fire Monty, they hire JB. How do you feel about it?
What does it say? Do you think about their overarching direction?
I'm see I'm saying it's about every team, but like,
this is really fascinating stuff from them, fascinating pivot, I
would call it.
Speaker 2: So I feel like the direction has to be up
right after you win fourteen games, there's nowhere to go
but up. After you fire all the decision makers involved
with the fourteen game season and hire new people, like
you feel like things have to go up right. But
I think the real answer to your question is, like
how I feel overall, is that the new President Basketball Operations,
Trajan Langdon, has done what you and I have been
asking the Pistons to do for the last couple of
years and finally started shifting the talent on the roster
more towards the skill set of Cad Cunningham. There's no
more double big line up because Troy Weaver really likes sinners.
There's more spacing from the guards and the wings who
you would think actually will play minutes with Kate. This season,
they hired a coach with experience staggering two ball dominant
guards who can't play together but are probably better a part.
And you know they also paid Kate two hundred and
twenty four million dollars, which the old regime would have done.
But that's very much like, hey, we're new, we value you,
We're sorry about the last couple of years. Here's two
hundred and twenty four.
Speaker 1: We're sorry about the last couple of years. I did
find it. I always assumed it was a given, but
in theory it could have been the Kate extension, which
was not something I planned to talk to about because
I just would have given it to him. That was
my reaction to it. I don't think there was I
know some people were with him and mobile they're twisting
themselves into pretzels and like, I subscribe to what Brian
Windhorst says. This is the fun Max, this is what
the no brainer offer? Is it? Like concerned with more?
Speaker 2: Like after the last three years, would he take it right?
He'd be the first guy who's like, no, I don't
want two hundred million dollars. I want my freedom. And
so getting getting that out of the way is like okay,
like he's gonna be here for the long term, Like,
let's make this thing happen. Let's build the team around him.
Speaker 1: It probably helped them in that regard that he's had,
like the lower body issues, wh let me just lock
down this quarter of a million bucks basically, and then
and then we could move on.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So yeah, what did you make though of the JB.
Bicker staff higher specifically, because I think in the Piston
situation or how we view I know they're shifting towards
Kid's skill set more. I think they would have been
a team that after firing Manty, especially that they might
have been a team that people pegged, oh, did they
go off the beaten path and hire someone who doesn't
have head coaching experience, but they go with this veteran
in JB. So one had like, do you think that
says anything specific like going that direction with the Higher?
And two do you have any sort of sensor insight
into what you think they're gutting principles, whether it's you know, stylistically, culturally,
whatever are going to be like under him?
Speaker 2: So I do know that there was there was reports
that after hiring a first time like team manager at
Trajan Langdon has been like a GM but under David
Griffin in New Orleans, and so he's running a team
solely for the first time, they did not want to
hire a coach who would be running, who would be
a head coach for the first time, and so that
eliminated some potential candidates Mike and Norri Shawn Sweeney, both
guys with Detroit experience.
Speaker 1: Mind you, I will say just interject, I just want
Mike and nor to have a head coaching job ever
since that John Krasinsky piece at the Athletic mapping out
how he just works in random turns of phrase and
words into his his interviews basically off of dares from
his fellow assistant coaches or like players that are on
the team. So Mike Andy is going to be a
head coaching legend and any team that didn't hire him
missed out. That is my official stance.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And they were two assistants under Dwayne Casey, like
the year the Pistons made the playoffs with Blake and
so like there's there's a little bit of warm and
fuzzies around around those two guys in particular. And then
obviously there was the connection of James Barrego being hired
as the lead offensive guy in New Orleans and Trajan
playing a part in that, and obviously none of that
came fruition, and they went with JB. I felt fine
with JB as the higher even all the names I
just listed. None of those guys like really like made
me feel like, oh, like this is going to be
the guy that's really going to turn this team around.
And the guy I would have preferred in. Kenny Atkinson
would also like fall under that same umbrella of like
kind of a retread coach. But the thing I think
that JB brings is boring competence, And after you win
fourteen games, boring competence is a massive leap in the
right direction, Right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a fair way to frame it.
And actually I had this discussion with I've had a
a bunch of times with people in DMS. What we
talked about on the show where my biggest criticism of
Jbi Bickerstaff is that sometimes it felt like in Cleveland
he specifically he'd play it too safe, and I think
some of the injuries forced him to kind of get
out of that a little bit, and we saw it
towards the end of the season. I think when you
look at the way Mobley was deployed, when you look
at some of the lineup, they would run and crunch
time even when they were healthy, and so I'm like wondering,
does he now, I mean like, experience matters, and we've
seen it with think about Mike Brown and Sacramento what
he was viewed as until he went to the Golden
State Wars, and it's kind of like, did the experience
with Cleveland, Like could we see more flexibility, experimentation, just
some more creativity from JB. Bickers staff to where it's
not just about the boring competence. It's like, oh, this
is someone who brings a level of innovation.
Speaker 2: Now, yeah, I think that was needed for that Cleveland
team last season, especially after the way that they lost
to Your Knicks in the playoffs two years ago. It's like,
we need to show something, we need to show more versatility.
But for this Pistons team and for all the young
guys at this Pistons scene that are on this Pistons team,
I think it's gonna be really important to get the
basics down and the thing I'm looking forward to seeing
from the coaching staff is development. That was one thing
that was I think the biggest hit you could give
many Williams was that none of the young guys besides
Cade seemed to be better than they were in their
previous seasons under him. It's like, yes, maybe they were
like the rotations were weird. I liked some of the
stuff Moni did offensively. I think there are some fair
he obviously like the Jade and Ivy situation was the
most like high high profile thing. But like I had
been warned by people I would talk to about money,
like he would play favorites, and like we saw that
in Phoenix, we saw that in Detroit. But honestly, like
I think, if if any of the young guys had
looked better, there's a chance, like Minnie Williams would still
be here. But yeah, no, I think so. I think
that development and improvement year over year, guys looking more
confident and more experienced in March and April versus how
they look in November, I think is the main thing
that I'm going to be looking for JB in that staff.
Speaker 1: We don't have to get in every into every move individually.
I will say, though, shame on the rest of the
NBA for letting Simoni Fontechio resigned Detroit for just like
highway robbery of a deal. But do you think they
got enough traction out of their cap space? Do you
even not care about framing it in that way? Is
it's just like okay, like we got kid in actual
spacing now.
Speaker 2: So it's interesting, right, Like I think they did enough.
Like would I have liked to be the team that
got three second round picks to take Reggie Jackson on,
Like yeah, I would have liked that. Would I like
to have not put Quinton Grimes in the Tim Hardaway
junior trade? Like yeah, that would have been nice? But
there was some rumblings about Grimes being unhappy about his
potential role and a lack of potential extension and so
like maybe that might be a thing where they just
like it's not worth the headache.
Speaker 1: There were some of that in New York too, where
he would complain about like not not complain might be
too strong a ward, but like not having the ball more.
And it's like, well you're on a team, Jalen Brunson,
Like what do you what? Right?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So but in getting vets that a I think
will play and be again like fit around Cade Cunningham.
I think they did pretty well using their cap space.
The other thing is that these deals are here for
a good time, not a long time. Right, Tobias Harris
is here for two years and that's it. Milik Beasley's
on a one year deal. THHJ is an expiring deal.
Like I'm I'm not the biggest Tim Hardway junior fan
in the world, but like he can play more than
Joe Harris can, right, And like that was what we
were talking about last offseason, was like the Joe Joe
Harris is like was going to impact this team, and
so it's what they did was fine. It was between
this and it's like do they go after a zach
Lavine do they go after a braindon Ingram? And I
think while those avenues like would have been interesting to explore,
I think that what we're seeing from the rest of
the NBA regarding like those two guys in particular, is like, Okay,
like maybe like this was the right call, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean you mentioned it too. They're so
the contracts are so short term that you can quibble,
but there's nothing wholesale that it looks like you need
to worry about here. And this offseason was I would
also say all teams were like most of them, except
with the exception of the Sixers, who pulled off a
you know, cap space master class. They're all kind of
going through it and figuring out what was going Like
I never would have guessed that Fontechia was so cheap.
I never would have guessed that Obias Harris got so
much guaranteed money in two years. I do think Kitln
Cooper calls it a soul tax, where like a situation
becomes so toxic that a player's value just veers so
far from his reality. And I think with Tobias Harris,
it's fair to think that he'll just be better in
Detroit than he was in Philly. But like even though
he Beasley only getting one guaranteed year at six million,
what happened with Gary Tran Junior and Tias Jones. Yeah,
I don't know to they can spin it how they
want that. It was like kind of up to them, like, well,
you only do this if you don't have like the
other options. So I also wonder how much of that
kind of just played into did they act a little
too early? Also not and even if you want to
not want to say too early, but they're coming at
it from the perspective of, well, we need like a
guy like to buystis to want to come to Detroit,
or we don't want to miss out on like cap
like getting these like this deal for Tim Hardaway. I
wouldn't have done the deal for Tim Hardaway Junior or
at least try not to include Quentin Grimes. But like
it does seem like I don't even want to call
it a misread, but it seems like maybe they were
trying to figure like, well, how soon do we act
or let this cap space sit before we use it?
And I really the only move that I would look
at and be like, oh is the Tim Hardaway one.
And it's just on the level of just like who cares?
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, well, I think about like Utah, like I listened,
I listened to you guys, and so I've listened to
you and grant to apologies. What is what is UTAH
doing right? And as it turns out, like they give
Lauria the extension and they're forced, not forced, but like
they're given, like Kyle Philipowski, like an extra like three
and a half million dollars to like eat up their
cap space because of the new CBA where you need
to hit the floor before the season starts. And so
it's like, uh, could there have been some better options
out there? Like maybe like could they have waited and
gotten the leak Beasley like on the Gary Trent Junior
where it's like just a minimum, like maybe they do
kind of still need a backup point guard. And so
but tyas Jones very much, I think thinks of himself
as a starter and with kid like that's that's not
going to be in the cards. And so there there
are there were options out there, Like would I have
liked to be involved somehow in the DeMar Derosen like
sign and trade, Like yeah, maybe, like that would have
been nice, but there wasn't enough. I don't think there
were enough avenues for the Pistons to like get in
on and taking advantage of other teams like trying to
duck the second apron and things. So it is what
it is, and the the team is better, right, I
think the team is more functional, and that's really what
they were focused on this off season.
Speaker 1: So looking at this actual team and what may play
out on the court and this forthcoming season, what is
just the biggest storyline that you personally are going to
be monitoring throughout the year.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so this one's pretty obvious. It's Kaid. How How
good does Kaid look with the roster more suited to
his talents? Right? Because we again, we've complained about it,
and even through all the complaining, he was a lot
better last year. He was a twenty four to five
and seven and a half guy. He shot forty thirty
nine like and a half percent from three after the
All Star break, Like those.
Speaker 1: Are extra fawn, you love to see it.
Speaker 2: Those were very good numbers. And they coincided with just
like adding Simone Fantechio and not much else and like
getting rid of the Killian Hayeses and Isaiah Livers's of
the team who were just like not real NBA players, right,
And so with less of a phone booth, with better
talent around him, with other guys who might be able
to make some shots around him, could he be like
a twenty six five and nine guy like that, that's
kind of an All Star, Like Tyrese Maxey was an
All Star last year and he was a twenty six,
four and six guy, right, And so's like, you know,
if kid can get to that level of production and
the team can find some level of success on the court,
some amount of wins, not lose twenty five plus games
in a row, it's like you have a narrative around
like the team building something kid being a large part
of that, and him being acknowledged kind of in the media,
in the national media, and like by his peers as
like a guy who's like Willing, who's been able to
do like the things for them.
Speaker 1: Why do you think I didn't you just said something
made me think of it. Why do you think that
there seems to be so much division over him? Is
it because Okay, so we have this track record of injuries,
and then last year everyone kind of latched on to
the turnover issue, which got better. And but like, if
you weren't watching, and I guess this amounts to me
being condescending if you weren't I hate playing if you
weren't watching the Pistons car But it seems like even
with players who are more established, something might happen in
the first like ten to fifteen games quarter of the season,
and like that's the storyline that defines the rest of
their year, almost regardless of what is actually happening. What
do you think makes him such a divisive figure in
the I guess it's the would you build around this
player discourse?
Speaker 2: Basically, Yeah, I think it's the fact that nothing about
him is really like he doesn't stand out in any
like one area of the game, right, He's not. He's
a really good passer, He's he made he's made himself
more of a shooter over the last season, but before
that he was really inefficient and he turned the bowl
over a lot, didn't really get to the rim, never
shot any free throws, and so again, like if you
were only turning the pistons on, like during the twenty
eight game losing streak, which I think was still like
before Christmas, it's like, okay, like this team's going nowhere.
This guy's like not able to elevate them, and so
it's like we can kind of write them off. But
I think the team was so bad last year. There
were just so many non functional NBA players around him,
and the skill set that he has was just like
not because he's not a guy who's going to go
out and score forty, it's like because he's a guy
who wants to kind of play slower and kind of
dissect defenses. I think that like he just he wasn't
able to leave the team to wins, and people just
kind of took that in a poor way as a
poor reflection of himself. Like you look at like Paul
Benchero was like equally as inefficient but like slightly more productive,
but his team was winning and he got a lot
of credit for that. He gets a lot of kudos
for that. I don't and I think team's success will
lead to people viewing kid in a more favorable light,
if that makes sense.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. What does the next front tier for
him look?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: You mentioned sort of the rim stuff and I'd mentioned
in the notes, And sometimes feel like he might have
that extra gear, like let's flip the dial and get
a little bit faster rather than you know, relying on
I don't know. Hesitations are like bailing out too early
on his drives and he does still maybe the lower
body injuries have impacted it, but like you've seen him
turn corner sometimes and like get by people, And if
he did that more consistently, is that a spacing thing?
Maybe now it'll be better around him, you could get
there or is it just something else entirely that you're
looking at for his development?
Speaker 2: Now I'm looking at rim finishing, but I'm looking at
him adding strength. Right. The thing that really stood out
to me last season was as he as he got
stronger and as he got better using his making, using
his body to carve out space. You could really see that.
There were times where you were reminded, like, oh, yeah,
he's six six and like he can extension finish around
biggs or if he if he gets into the paint
with with with no help, like he can finish over
and around guys. It's still below the rim, right, but
he can still do that. Like stylistically, he does still
love those mid range jumpers and he's he's very good
at them. But you do wish some of those were
like paint touches and kickouts. I wish some of those
were like ten foot floaters instead of fifteen foot like pump,
fake pump, fake pump, fake shot. But I do think
that he will always kind of be who he is.
He'll always be a change of pace operator. That's how
he wants to play. But like Dan, you watch Jalen Brunson, right,
Like Jalen Brunson would just like pick people apart from
like inside twelve feet and like as long as you
get into the paint and uh pressure the defense, like
you can figure stuff out from there. I think kid
like absolutely has the potential to do that, and that
will be the thing I'm looking for him to do
this season.
Speaker 1: Imagine someone his size and Jalen Brunson's like footwork, that's
a nasty basketball player.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well the other thing is too, like as the
roster gets better, Like we talk about the spacing being
something good for him obviously, but with the spacing being
better and with his teammates being able to hit more shots,
he'll he'll be able to distribute a lot more. And
I think his distribution is something that doesn't get enough
play because his teammates like don't hit enough shots.
Speaker 1: Right, he's a guy, He's a really really good passer,
and maybe some of it's like like he just the
ability to see things, and so I am very anxious
to see not anxious excited to see what he could
do with what I assume will be better spacing. But
that does kind of lead me into what I guess
my biggest question for this team would be how challenging
is it to integrate even whether it's like like together
or separately, just the primary kids on this roster. Where
the two things that stand out to me is even
if you don't think there are a ton of redundancies,
the Jade and Ivy a Sarr Thompson, Ron Holland Jayle
and Duran for like they don't feel particularly complimentary. And
the other thing that I haven't seen it get a
ton of run. But like one of these fives, my
kid is there. So one of these four guys is
this front office is guy and like the other three
kind of aren't. And so like how could that impact
like the priorities or how these players are used? How
challenging do you see like just the integration of all
four of them together set like what whatever?
Speaker 2: So I think like not not all of the kids
are gonna make it, and not all the kids are
gonna make it in Detroit, Like I just probability wise,
like that's that's going to happen. So the thing I'm
looking at especially for this season is Jalen, Duran and
Jade and Ivy And that's because they're going to be
extension eligible this offseason and so you need to figure
out what you have in these guys, so A you
can figure out if you're gonna pay them or not,
and B if you are going to pay them, you
need to figure out how much. Right, I think it's
fair to say Jade and Ivy and Jalen Duran, like
aren't going to get the two hundred million dollars that
we saw Kaide get, but like, could they get smaller extensions? Right?
Could they get the like I think think of it
as the Norm Powell, it's not the Norm powal anymore,
but like the post rookie extension that's not a max, right,
And so that's really important. And before the kids as
a whole, it's really about who can play with Cad,
right then Answering that question I think is going to
be paramount. Right now, I think it's really clear that
Duran is the most clear pairing with kid. We'll talk
about during a little bit later. The idealized versions of
Ron Holland and Tasar Thompson can absolutely like play off Kaid.
Both of those guys are like under twenty two, and
it's going to take a while to get to those
idealized versions, and so we'll see if those happens. But
also importantly, you don't have to pay either one of
those guys for like two three years, right, and so
that means Jade and Ivy's the big major question mark
about a like can you play with Cad and be
like if he can't, what do you do with him?
And if he can, what do you do with a
guy like that? Right?
Speaker 1: What is the key to him playing? Like? The biggest
key to Ivy playing with Cad and even just your
overall sentiments on him at this point, because there are
elements of his game where it feels like they all
make sense next to Caid, where if he's gonna hit
set threes and he has that you know, catching attack
mode or even just that fast twitch attack mode, they
complement each other really well. But there's like all this
other stuff he doesn't do, and everything he does well
feels like it's inconsistent. So one, where are you at
with j and Ivy and who? Like what's the biggest key? Like,
if he's gonna work aside from Cad X needs to
happen next season.
Speaker 2: Yeah, if he's going to work alongside Cad, I think
the major thing would have to be he would need
to be a more consistent shooter. He was by percentages,
he was like an OK shooter, but there were some
huge like peaks and valleys there. There's two games against
Sacramento and Portland on back to back nights where he
shot like thirteen of fourteen from three and they won
both of those games, and it was like, oh, like
like yeah, if he's gonna do that, then like, yes,
this can absolutely work. And then I think for there
were whole months where he shot like sub thirty percent
from three, and it's just it's a really it's really
hard to figure out. It's really hard to evaluate what
he's gonna be next o kaye if he can't be
that type of consistent player, but like what his long
term future is for this team. I'm ultimately like really torn.
I'm very guilty of focusing like on the things he
doesn't do well. He doesn't defend very well at all.
He turns the ball over way too often, and not
only that, he turns the ball over in ways that
are like guaranteed to piss the coach off, like live
ball turnovers that instantly turn into layups, where like even
he's kind of like doing the surrender cobra like on
the court, like oh, I can't believe I just did that,
And they there were a lot of times where like
I understand, like I talked a little bit about the
scenario with money and like not having a lot of
confidence and having a lot of faith in Jayden. I
got it at times, like I understood why, like you
can't operate like that, but I totally understood like why
he was doing that. Also, like sneakily, Jayden doesn't really
have an in between game. It's like threes or the
rim or nothing. And like that's that is like morey ball,
that's how you like idealize, like want to play. But
when teams know you like won't operate from the mid
range or you can't, it makes you very easy to defend.
And so like that's one that's one area I think
he needs to show some improvement in.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I think you could make for some players too,
Like Mari ball makes a ton more sense for someone
who's being deployed as an accessory, not someone necessarily who's
running your offers. You want them to have more layers
and levels to where they're scoring from. So was he
this You know, we'll get into the rotation a little
bit more later, but like it is, do you view
him as like they're going to start him next to
Kaid to begin the year?
Speaker 2: I think you have to. The roster is also kind
of weird where I've lost faith in Marcus Sassar and
so without a true backup point guard, it does feel
like Jade and Ivy is just going to be your
backup point guard. Again. J B. Baker staff has a
lot of experience doing the hard stagger where one of
those guys is always on the floor. But in the
long term, I think where I'm at is it's it's
going to be best for both sides if there's a
change of scenery. And that's not because I don't think
Jayden isn't a talented player, because I absolutely do. I
just think he's going to be best with this is
like we've talked about this for years, like literal years.
Dan like he's going to be best with the ball
in his hands, and it's going to be really tough
to do that when at his best, he's probably not
going to be as good as Kate Cunningham is with
the ball in his hands. And like, with that in mind,
I even think there's like a really great destination out
there for him, Like Brooklyn. Brooklyn absolutely needs a guy
who can make stuff happen with the ball in their
hands and is prepared to be bad enough to let
him figure out like how to do that at an
elite at a at a high level for like an
entire season and have him like be the quote unquote
guy like Ivy and camp Thomas. That's not a good team.
That's a very fun team. I'll watch that team.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it was am Johnson to Detroit Rumors too.
By throwing this into the by throwing this into the ether,
uh you know, uh DFS would be a nice addition
on the wing too.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I think like it's tough because like this
is all's going to kind of happen, right, Like I
talked about this. He was drafted, so he's going to
be best with the ball in his hands. And they
have kid, and so I do think a change of
scenery is going to would be best for both sides.
Will it actually happen, like no? And do I do?
I hope they trade him, like I don't, And I
honestly don't know. If he figures some stuff out his
back a point guard, cuts down on the turnovers, shows
more consistent shooting, like that's absolutely a very very valuable
player and that's something as somebody I think like JB
could take advantage of offensively. But will it happen, Like
I don't know, I don't know is there.
Speaker 1: And the other thing too, So I was gonna ask
if the hard stagger maybe increases the likelihood that it
would pan out. But then you have difficult decisions to
make with your most important lineups to where J and
Ivy probably still isn't in them, and just what does
that look like long term? And the other thing is,
if you're going to hard stagger them, my assumption would
be then he in turn is spending a lot of
time next to Asar Thompson and or Ron Holland, and
that's going to create a whole bunch of space and
concerns unless Jay n Ivy just turns into not just
a great set shooter but like this off the dribble
shooter And so there is a complex nature there. But
I also do J n Ivy's one of those guys
where when he like when he's on like, it's just
tantalizing as hell.
Speaker 2: Mm hmmm. And because of that, you hope that, like
the I think if they are going to separate or
if the decision is made, you you would want Jayden
to really thrive in that like staggered bench roll up
until like January and then have like a giddy situation
where some team looks at him, it's like, yeah, we
would like that guy to have a bigger role. We'd
like that guy to come in and like run things
for us. We think he could be successful doing it,
and you could get something of value back for him,
because it would really be crushing to trade a number
five overall pick for like very little in return, simply
because like he was the wrong selection, right, not that,
not like not for nothing, but I know that he
was not the preferred selection of the Pistons, like in
that draft it was Keegan Murray, but like obviously Keegan
went before five, so you it kind of just like
it was what it was. But yeah, is it? The
whole j n Ivy thing is really complicated and really complex,
and I hope he figures it out, whether that's in
Detroit or someplace else. Like you said, like when he's on,
he's a tantalizing player to watch.
Speaker 1: I am in love with the Sartnobson, the defense, and
I was wrong about we were on this podcast last
year because I went back and looked at my notes.
I talked about how I believed in the jumper.
Speaker 2: We all do.
Speaker 1: I won't say that I'm a disbeliever now, but I'm
feeling less confident about it than I did. But the
passing stood out to me as well. And like there
were smart stuff from the stand, stuff when he was
getting going downhill, and there's something I was working on
months ago, Like his assist percentage on drives was just
absolutely bonkers, Like relative to the rest of the league
at large, let's start with a positive. What impressed you
or stood out or surprised you the most about him?
Speaker 2: Yeah, the definitely the way in which he was able
to attack advantage situations. Right. There was a lot of
kind of tinkering to figure out, like what the best
role for Usar was. You saw them kind of stick
him in the corner a little bit and just kind
of tell him to figure it out. And he made
hay with like baseline cuts. And in transition, as the
season kind of went on, they started involving him more
in actions kind of they had him slip a bunch
of screens. You'd throw him a pocket pass at sixteen feet,
he would make a dribble and then like he would
either finish or like make a good decision with the ball.
And that's something I think that we'll keep, Like that's
a that's a skill in an area I think in
which he will continue to make improvements and continue to
be able to contribute this season. And like weirdly he
was he was a good He had a really good jumper,
Like inside the arc. There were times where he'd get
like cut off on a drive and he'd do this
turnaround where he would just jump like twelve feet in
the air, shoot like this little ten foot turnaround, and it
felt like it would go in at like an eighty
percent rate. And it's just like translating whatever confidence he's
got in that shot to the three pointer I think
would be paramount for him and for what it's worth,
like he shot like an eye bleeding fifteen percent from
three prior to the All Star break. After the All
Star break, and he like he had some injuries. He
got whacked in the face, I think prior to the
All Star break.
Speaker 1: So after the situation too, that was, uh, yeah, that sucked.
I hope he's fine, by the way, I haven't heard
anything about that.
Speaker 2: All reports are that he's going to be fine for
training camp. He was in Chicago for the draft lottery,
and like obviously you can't fly with the blood clots
and so like him being not in Michigan tells you
that he's probably able to fly and they're probably like
not worried about it long term, So like, yeah, that
that is a good situation, obviously.
Speaker 1: I have a fob question about that. Do you think
that these players want to go to the lottery or
is it like a form of punishment, like, hey, you
shot below twenty five percent from three, You're gonna have
to go represent us at this at the slattery. I
just I never know if the active players want to
be there. Most of them aren't like, oh am I
here because they're drafting my replacement, But like, I just
it's just like do they want to be at these things?
Speaker 2: Like I think he was like he was just chilling,
and I think I think a Tradan represented them in
the lottery, so I think he was just there like
oh okay, yeah not but uh but yeah. It is
a very weird moment when you have like the guy
who was just drafted being like, yeah, I'm excited to
be here, but also like am I am I getting
another guy that's going to be in competition with me?
I don't know how they.
Speaker 1: Did Yeah, yeah, what is the jumper? The swing skill
for him. Is there anything else that's just kind of
like stand that's low hanging fruit, but it's like it's
a big deal.
Speaker 2: The jumper in the handle his handles really weird. H
He dribbles, He dribbles and shoots very methodically, very regimented,
very much like someone who's been coached to dribble and
shoot in a certain way. And then after the All
Star break the shot didn't. It went in at twenty
seven percent, which is still bad, but.
Speaker 1: Like twenty eight percent on threes, so hey.
Speaker 2: But he looked a lot more confident and fluid taking them.
But previously, like for for the YouTube audience, in the
first half of the season, you see him like catch
elbow up like over, and you could see like him
like walking through the motions of like.
Speaker 1: How the string Internet is what it looked like.
Speaker 2: Very much so, And as the season went on, like
that process got quicker and smoother, and then and the results, uh,
there were there were better results. Still not good results,
but better results. Obviously both the Thompson twins up like
legendary work ethic and I bet he's in the gym
like shooting like right now, and so I feel confident.
I feel confident that he'll get to a baseline level
of confidency with the jumper. It's just going to be
a longer process than we initially thought.
Speaker 1: Someone the smart as yourself saying that in tern just
makes me feel so much better about how I felt
about him a year ago, and now I will that
those feelings are undergoing a renaissance.
Speaker 2: Is there, well, no, and the other things like like
JB has experienced, like leveraging off ball shooters in offense right,
like Isaacacorro playing two bigs with Evan Mobley and Jared
Allen win like the two years ago, and elbe like
wouldn't shoot any threes right. So I feel also confident
in that in a bench role, they'll be able to
figure out ways to get him involved offensively to the
point where, yes, the jumper is still be an issue,
but he'll still be able to contribute on that end.
Speaker 1: That's aund just about to ask too, is they're sort
of like the They definitely have the time, but do
they sort of have the bandwidth to explore more? Asar
Thompson on the ball, just because I know his's handle
can be a little erratic, but he is such a
good passer and as you mentioned, there is kind of
a vacuum at yeah, okay Stagger j and Iby and
k Cunningham, but there is still kind of a vacuum
for secondary playmaking. And if he's gonna come off the bench,
it feels like a natural point to be like, oh,
you know, maybe we trust Ron Hollins's handle more, but
like I think a sar Thompson is the better passer,
So like, is there do they have the bet? Would
you expect them to explore that or no?
Speaker 2: Not really, that's definitely a like later in the season
thing I would I would definitely explore that studio space
with the first part of the season being like, hey,
how competitive are we? Like again, like what are we
gonna do with Jade and Ivy? You know, can we
can we win some in season tournament games? Like can
we not? Can we not? Can we portray ourselves as
more confident than we've been in the past, And then
the second half of the season that's the Will Hardy
Special everybody gets to experiment, well, explore some studio space.
That would be I think be a good time for
a SORR to get some more on ball reps, reps
in which I think he would probably do fine. Right,
you can slither underscreens if if he gets even like
a little bit of advantage. He's not like Jade and
Ivy fast, but like guys can't stay in front of him.
And so I absolutely think there's potential there.
Speaker 1: And you think there's even and I think you might
have mentioned this before, is there even more potential? Like, Okay, well,
then we'll use him at the beginning or the meat
and potatoes of the season. However they real it we're
gonna use him as a screener more. Then, do you
think that's something they're really gonna focus on this year?
Speaker 2: I think that's the best way to leverage like we've
seen him with like Draymond, right, Like that's the best
way to get guys involved who can't shoot, is to
just have them like screen and create space for your
other shooters on the floor. And again, like we talked
about his ability to pass off drives, like Asar is
a very high IQ player, and so if he's leveraged
in that way, like, I have no doubt he'll be
able to like make hay out of it.
Speaker 1: So Jalen Duran confused the hell on me last year
and I'm almost giggled out loud because I forgot where
we were and the like the outlines that I'm bouncing
around and your first response to what I said with that,
are we gonna see like less? I phrase it is,
is he gonna get a shorter leash, a more streamlined
role on the offensive end? Like what is going what
is gonna happen with Jalen Duran this season?
Speaker 2: So the way you inside baseball, the way you put
it in the outline was like, was he given too
much agency to try shit on offense? And what I
respect was that it wasn't given to him. He took
it though, was like and from his perspective, I completely
understand it because like at the beginning of the season,
it was very much like he was playing his role
and then like as the losing streak kind of went on,
you could see him being like, well, shit, like nobody
else can do anything like let me, let me have
a go at it. And it was very frustrating to
watch because it was just like head scratching decision wise,
But I understood it from a mentality perspective, like I'm
gonna you can spin it as like what is he
doing or you can spend it as like he's trying
to do anything he can to win basketball games, and
for the sake of argument, I'm gonna spin it as
like he was trying to do everything he could to
win basketball games. And the other thing is he very
clearly likes cares about his offensive game. You see the
level of refinement in his post moves. He's hit. He
hit like the Wizards, and he hits some bonus with
like just some insane footwork down low. He had some
really nice finishes overture at Holgren in a twenty twenty
game at twenty twenty game in which he told the media,
don't forget my six assists as well, it was just
like shows you what kind of prioritization he places on
his on his offense. And so like, he's a very
very talented player. He also like made real strides as
a free throw shooter. Last year. He went from sixty
one percent his rookie year to seventy nine percent in
the sophomore year. That's a big jump and it was
a meaningful jump too. He looked a lot more comfortable
at the line. There were there were late game scenarios
in which you're like oh, like I feel okay with
like him taking these free throws, which was a far
cry from where he was his rookie year, and so
I do think he's very offensively talented, very offensively gifted.
I mentioned the partnership with Caid. We saw some of that,
like the USA Select Team scrimmages, right, they have a
lot of chemistry and pick and rolls. He's got like
between the legs handoffs to Kaid to get in kind
of like a stampede cut, and so like they have
a lot of chemistry and that's really cool ing with
Jaalen durn Is, though he was so bad on defense,
so bad on defense last season, and the generous interpretation
of that is after the ankle injury, which I believe
was his like third ankle injury in two years, he
like basically stopped trying to block shots because he was
worried about landing. He kept landing on people, and it
was like that that kept messing up his ankle. I like,
one of the beat guys talked about this, and I
couldn't remember if it was in like a report or
a podcast, And so I was combing through podcasts like
try and get this nugget for you, damn, but I
couldn't find it. But like, this is definitely it was
definitely a thing where like after he came back from
the ankle injury, he like stopped trying to block shots.
I believe like Asar had more blocks than him on
this season, which is like, yeah, Asar, but like also
like like that's.
Speaker 1: Not given the time that Asar. Honestly, if Asar never
misses all that time, I'm probably like it's a Sar
That's okay, but yeah, given the games played, thing, yeah,
that's bizarre.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And like it didn't help him that they were
playing a lot of drop, they were playing a lot
of no middle, and like nobody could really keep the
ball in front, and so like he's constantly having to
react and overreact and he's twenty and he's still figuring
stuff out. But he also very much like the level
of detail you see in his offensive game you don't
see in his defensive game. And that's something that's that's
definitely like concerning for me. But he was willing to
play a more defined and refined offensive role at the
beginning of the season, and so I think if there's
team success, if the team can win without him, doing
like fake keeper ded dribblehandoffs and attacking the rim if
the team can win without him, you know, trying to
take rebounds coast to coast like he did, which was cool,
but like when it didn't work, is like what what
are you doing? And it's like I think he can
succeed in that role and have that role being like
clearly defined for him, and like the team really needs him, right,
like Stu back up big right now? Like unless you
really like Paul Reid, Like I like what I've seen
from Paul Reid, but like, do I think Paul Reid
is gonna start for this team? Like not really? And
so like he's Jalen Durn's is the de facto like
big for this team. And again we talked about as
we talked about the extensions, like if he's going to
be that guy, if he's going to be the big
man on this team, Like how much is that guy worth?
Especially if he doesn't make strides defensively? Right? Like how much?
How much is an offense is a mainly offense only
like big man like worth in today's NBA? Right?
Speaker 1: And do you think that I think we've seen at
least the potential of him on defense, but you mentioned
the struggle of playing with people who really can't keep
the ball in front. Simoni Fontechio might be a little
underrated there. But the two players on this roster who
are best equipped to do that, I would say Ron
Holland and ASR. Thompson, and he can't really play with
both of them. So is this team built to optimize
because I do think like in terms of if he's
able to rotate over to the rim and like those
sort of basic reads like he can get and has
I think I've seen games at least where it's like, oh,
he's doing that really well. But is this team built
to I don't want to use the word insulate to
imply that he's always going to be a weakness, but
are they built to optimize him defensively yet?
Speaker 2: I think the answer to that is no, especially if
like one of like Jade and Ivy or Milik Beasley
or Timartowa Junior is in the starting lineup. But I
think they're better equipped than they were last season. It's interesting,
right because like defensively, his best pairing was with Isaiah Stewart,
and Stu was a guy who could keep the ball
in front and like he could just like collect rebounds,
and I think that was that was a priority for
him obviously, Like he's not gonna be playing with a
sar and he's not gonna be playing a lot with Stu.
I think that's a look that they'll give. But he's
probably not gonna be doing it a lot, And so
will the will like your Simone Fantecio's and your Tobias
Harris's like be able to contribute defensively in a way
that matters for him. And I think the answer is yes,
just because they're vets who like know where they're supposed
to be positionally, and so it won't be a matter
of it will be a matter of ability and not knowledge. Right,
you won't have guys being like, like where am I
supposed to be? And that's why they're not in front
of the ball versus like in the regular season, you're
not playing, Uh, you're not. Everyone you face in the
regular season is an NBA player, But you won't always
be facing like Philly or right Like, there will be
times in which like Tobias Harris and Samni fan Techio,
other wings are like perfectly adequate, perfectly cromulent defense for
what the business needs.
Speaker 1: What did you think of the Ron Holland pick, and
what are kind of your early impressions of his game?
Has fit the whole line there?
Speaker 2: Oh, man, I love Ron Holland. I love Ron Holland.
Speaker 1: Yet I'm not sure if you were familiar. I don't
who you know who Jonathan Wasserman is, But he did
have Ron Holland as the number one prospect his big board.
If that imbused you with any sort of even more
hopefulness than you already have.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I was confused that more people didn't have
him higher. Right. My thing was always when I watched
Holland and I watched the Ignite like this is a
very young, very disorganized team, and he was still he
still managed to be productive but inefficient, but he was eighteen, right,
Like having that level of production I think was outstanding
for a young guy. And the like the but like
the elevator pitch of like the Jalen Brown starter kit
like yeah, like like I love that art type of player,
like sign me up. Anyway, Holland had a really good
summer League in my opinion, again, he was productive but inefficient.
There were there were bad aspects he did kind of
put his head down and drive into three people and
get stripped a lot, and that wasn't great. But the
way he was able to play and transition, I think
the decision making improved as Summer League went along, which
was good to see. And then he was he was
very impressive on defense, not in a like al He's
like got a bunch of blocks and steals, or like
he's a Sar like eracing Grady Dick's existence in some
rearly like two years ago. He's just really really solid
and really really huge for a wing. Right he's six
's eight, and you can see guy like figure like,
oh wait, this guy's way too big for me to
like drive into. And so the Holland can do a
little bit of everything right now. You can score, he
can defend. He's a better shooter than the Sar. He
looked confident in the shot. I think the shot will improve.
He had a very He had a couple like really
nice like mid range jumpers that is like, oh like
once he builds a base, like the jumper will be better.
But I think key for Ron this season is that
unlike Asar Thompson and Jay n Ivey and Jay and Duran.
They don't need Ron to play right away. It'd be
nice if he does, but he can focus a little
bit more on development, or he can focus a little
bit more on the things that will get him on
the floor, like in his rookie year, which will be
like defense and not like ball handling and in creativity right,
And so I think limiting not we talked a little
bit about this a little bit with Durren, but like
having him play more of a role early in his
career I think will be beneficial for Ron, and it'll
enable the coaching staff can tell him, like, hey, if
you do these things, you'll earn minutes as opposed to
just be given as opposed to the minutes just being
like given to him. That also is like a little
bit of a double edged sword. I don't think there's
any value in like sending him down to the Cruise
if he's not going to play, for example, because again, like, yeah,
the situation might be a little bit more organized, but
like he proved he's a twenty point per game guy
the G League, and is like, will he be best
served by just like being a twenty point game, twenty
point per game guy for the Cruise like probably not,
and so it's probably better for him to just like
stay with the big the big team and focus on
the things he needs to improve on to actually play
NBA basketball. But like in year three, like this guy
is gonna pop, Like I can just see it already,
And so I'm super high on Rod Holland where.
Speaker 1: Are you at with if you watched enough of his uh, Like,
there are a lot of people that seem to be
commid that his jumper is going to be fine. It's
so where do you kind of land on that end
of the spectrum he's got.
Speaker 2: He's got a very obvious mechanical tweak that I think
will be made. Of course, oh we have didn't even
mention Fred Vinson, the legendary shooting coach, brought into Detroit
huge aspect of what I think the Pistons are looking
to do with Asaar and Ron in particular, and so
I think, like, yes, I think he will be a
perfectly fine NBA spot shooter. He looked, he looks really fluid.
He looks already and Asar is not like a good baseline.
But it's just like I got so used to looking
so uncomfortable like taking jumpers. Ron looks way more comfortable.
The jumpers just don't don't go in.
Speaker 1: In a big departure from where the pistons are at.
They currently have fewer than one trillion bigs on their
depth chart, are they It seems like just my zoomed
out view, I mean, did see the points last year
that they are going to lean into more of the
space here looks overall? And so does that mean even
more as AA steward at the five? Is there a
chance we even see Bobby Clintman gets some minutes? Does
Paul read up his three point gone and he dabbled
in a little bit with Philly? Is that like the
look it feels like they're going to try and go for,
especially if look, if you want Thompson and Holland to
have these roles, and even Jade and Ivy when you
have so many even if you don't want to call
them liabilities because that's too strong of a word, let's
say question marks when it comes to you know, perimeter
shooting and spacing. Is that a look that you expect
them to lean into even more, let's say, independent of
the jail and Duram minutes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I definitely think the way the bigs are set
up on the roster right now. Duran's gonna be the starter,
Stuart's going to be the backup, and Paul Reid is
there for part injury insurance. Quietly, both Duran and Stu
have like played like fifty to sixty ish games per year.
But I am intrigued by both Stu and Reid's ability
to stretch the floor as quote unquote like small fives.
Now they're one of those guys is like tiny, but
they're both like not like seven feet either, And so
I do think that playing a quote unquote stretch five
like allows you to get away with playing in the
Star or Ron or both in like bench lineups in
a way that like playing Duran and Ron or like
wouldn't let you like get away with as much. I
do think. I think it would be really funny to
see like Paul Reid and Stu on the floor at
the same time. It was like two like two stretch
bigs kind of sort of. Reid is a really funky player,
and all of my exposure to him has been like
only when he plays well, So I'm very curious to
see how he plays on a very consistent basis. And
then Bobbie Clintman, Bobbie Clinton's Bobe.
Speaker 1: I'd like keep I kept too many people calling him Bobby,
including myself. Apparently Boby's cooler, so I favor it.
Speaker 2: Boby is cooler. He's probably going to play with the
cruise that's upsetting I. He was fun in Summer League.
He also shot like nine for nineteen inside the arc,
and so if like the only thing he's going to
contribute is floor spacing, there are better options for the
team than that. But he's he's a very interesting player,
and I hope he gets the chance to work out
some of those when he gets stronger and a little
bit better with the ball in his hands, Like he's
that's going to be a really interesting player and he'll
get the chance to do that at the G league level.
Speaker 1: Marcus Sasser may have produced me last year just by
being someone who could hit threes.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: And it seems like you think I might have been
over seduced by him relative to their situation, because I
look at the the way the rotation is set up,
and unless you think you're gonna give more ball handling
or playmaking responsibilities to a Nasar Thompson or want to
try out run. How hand, in that capacity, it looked
like it might have been set up for him to
have a little bit of an expanded role. But you
you seem to disagree on that front.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I yeah, I'm kind of out on Sassar from
what we saw last season and in summer league. He
is not a point guard. He's just point guard sized,
and so like as an off ball guy, he can
like we can run a secondary pick and roll and
like make some open shots. Like I think he has value,
but he's no longer a guy who's development I would
really be trying to prioritize, especially given like the regime
that drafted him is no longer in place and he's
already twenty four years old, right, Jade, I need to
figure out what I have in Jade and Ivy and
in order to do that, like Marcus Asser like kind
of superfluous but interesting, but superfluous.
Speaker 1: So is that like does that become sort of a
if he's not that guy? Okay, you have Ja and
Ivy and Kid Cunningham, but like what's the theory of
like who's the third playmaker then on this team? Is
it just like the third best passer after them is
Asar Thompson, Right, who am I missing?
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, it's it'd be a sar. It'd be a
star in my mind, and that would be a guy
who'd like run some bench lineups. Or what I think
is more likely is they probably bring in some outside
help down because.
Speaker 1: The theory of why they had Monty Morris at one
point like it made I know, the injuries and stuff
like that made sense to me in terms of I've
become over the past years a big believer in I
don't know if the word is optimizing or streamlining development
for everyone where it's okay, it's cool to see SR.
Thompson as a example and all these on ball reps,
but if like the half court ecosystem isn't set up
for him to succeed, or you're asking him to do
too much in a less than an ideal environment, I
don't know how much service you're doing him. And you
point this out also with the G League stuff is
also if you put players in roles in different situations
that they're not gonna have when the minutes matter or
the most important lineups, how much of a benefit is
that to you or them anyway? And so I'm like,
now I look at this team and you don't think that,
which I think is perfectly fair. By the way, like
I said, I think I was over reduced by Oh,
Marcus Asser shot like almost league average from three. Basically,
like on this business team, it feels like there might
be value and like, well, is there're just a veteran
that can soak up some minutes. It's not We're giving
up a ton of assets to get them, but it
makes the job easier on everyone else and also fills
what seems like it is clearly avoid on this roster.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they do have an open roster spot, and they
have two big voids in like backup veteran organizer. I
think in terms of like organization right, like getting guys
where they need to be and making sure that you're
like running your half court offense in a way that
like actually makes sense. And I've talked a little bit
about the bigs Reid and Stewart are undersized, and we
talked about Jyllan Duran's defensive deficiencies so that I would
like another rim protector. So either filling that roster spot
with like either one of those archetypes is I think
gonna be what they need to do to flesh out
the roster. But yeah, I agree with you that like
if Sas, there's not if SAS's not in there for
the long term. And he's also like not really an
organizer or a streamliner. They need that arc type absolutely.
Speaker 1: So are you ready to enter the cookie cutter portion
of the podcast, mister, let's do it, mister lajja accent. Okay,
So what does the top ten rotation look like for
this team?
Speaker 2: So what what I would do is I would probably
start Millik Beasley, a guy we haven't talked about that much,
but a guy who was by.
Speaker 1: The way, I don't know, maybe I was watching the
wrong Bucks games. He catches a lot of shit. They
were asking him to do too much defensively. He's a
lot better defensively when he was switching on specifically like
bigger players. I think Detroit Piston stands other being pleasantly
surprised with how he does there that or I only
watched the games, which we all know I don't watch games.
I don't watch them, but I must have only seen
the games in which he was doing good things or
not terrible things on that end. So I've just seen
him catch a lot where it's like, oh, like easily
sucks on defense. It's like, well, it's not his fault,
Like the Bucks wanted him to be like that type
of advantage creator defender a lot of the time last year.
Speaker 2: It's like he was guarding Tyree s Maaxy a lot
of the time. Like what do you want from him? Man?
Speaker 1: Like here one game against the Bulls where he just
gave like Nikola Vucevich the business on three consecutive possessions defensively,
and it was like, not that that was the trend,
but it was like he was holding up fairly well
in those situations in the game that I saw. So
I don't know how much he's gonna find himself in
those scenarios with Detroit, but just just to the league
easily love, especially because he cost fucking nothing one year
and six million is just bonkers to me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I would put him in the starting lineup.
I would saw'd start Kaid Beasley, Small and Fount techy O,
Tobias Harris and Jalen Dern, and then I would have
Jade and ivy Asar Thompson, Tim Hardaway Junior, and Isaiah
Stewart be your like nine man rotation and my rule,
like after Monti Williams like, no more ten man rotations,
no more full bench lineups, We're done with that. My
rule would be like one of Cayden Ivy is always
on the floor and one of Tobias and Simone is
always on the floor. Hard staggers for both of those guys,
Tobias and Simone's skill sets open up. I think like
we talked a lot about like what like the shooting
and the spacing that they need. It is like if
you play one of those guys at the three or
the four, that enables you to play like an Asar obviously,
and then you can obviously play them together because they
both can can space the floor.
Speaker 1: Obviously, this will be matchup dependent. But what would your
crunch time lineup crutch be. Is it just the starting
unit that you outlaid.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it would just be the starting lineup unless
like Jade and Ivy is having a really amazing game offensively,
or Asar Thompson is just like completely cut off somebody's
water like that. The starting lineup is the direction that
would headen and against bigger opponents, against like against like
a Cleveland or a or even like a even like
a like a Lakers. I would maybe you'd see a
crunch time lineup where Stu and durn do play together,
just because again, like that was one of their best
defensive pairings like early in the season, and I think
that that that's a pairing that works.
Speaker 1: Is there any offbeat, funky lineups that you would like
to see them roll out at any point next season?
Speaker 2: The starting lineup with Stewart instead of durn I think
would be like it's kind of five out if you
squint a little bit, I think that would be really interesting.
And then there's a defense in chaos lineup. I've got
where's Jade and Ivy, Asar Thompson, Ron Hollow and Paul
Reid and Isaiah Stuart's just like shooting, Like who cares
about shooting? We're just gonna make shit happen.
Speaker 1: Uh wow. I don't know what the offense. I feel
like my eyes were already bleeding thinking about what the
offense with.
Speaker 2: We're getting turnovers. We're turning people over and getting out
in transition. That's the plan with that line up.
Speaker 1: I do like the idea of just seeing what it
looks like defensively, of having Ron Holland and Asar Thompson
just on the floor together and seeing what type of
chaos they can interject.
Speaker 2: That's that's in my mind, that's the long term vision,
and so like, yeah, you would want to get some
looks at like how that looks sometime during the season.
Speaker 1: I want to see caid Fontecio Asar Ron Holland and
let's put Bobi in the middle. I remain I know
I couldn't pronounce his name correctly, but the idea of
kind of stretching the floor and like some of the
stuff he can do in the open floor. I don't
know what that team or lineup looks like defensively, but
it's like and I can talk myself into it because like, oh,
there's like enough youth and like Simoni fun Techio is
the only one that's over the age of twenty five
in that Unit's like doesn't, like, why don't I just
roll it out just to try it? Maybe that's something
we could see like post trade that vide.
Speaker 2: I mean, uh, I doubt we'll see something that little,
but like you've always tended towards the like ultra small
lineups when we do the fucking lineup, So I'm totally
not surprised that that's where your mind is at.
Speaker 1: I think Asar had enough stocks last year that discounts
as small ball with with like with some like gritty
size to it. He plays like a player who's a
lot bigger. But you are right, I'm glad my brand
stay strong after all these years of leaning into the
although by my standards, this might be a pretty big
lineup if you really think about it. I'm not making
to play Marcus Asser at the five.
Speaker 2: You definitely had like you definitely had like an Isaiah
Livers at four lineup, like like a couple of years ago,
where I was like, oh, like we're tiny.
Speaker 1: You were gutted when we didn't talk about Isaiah Livers
until the end of the podcast last year.
Speaker 2: Asaiah Livers was so disappointing last year. He just could
not make a shot. And then we found out that
like you had like rotator cuff or you're like a
shoulder issue, which is probably the reason why he couldn't
make a shot. And then Troy Weaver promptly rescued him
and he's in Washington right now.
Speaker 1: So their current win total is said at twenty five
and a half. Would you take the over the under
and how many wins do you actually see them potentially
getting next year.
Speaker 2: So I'm not sponsored by BETMGM. This podcast is not
sponsored by BETMGM, but that is my sportsbook app of choice,
and I have a wager on the Pistons at over
twenty four and a half, I would go to twenty
five and a half. I would go over on that
wager as well. Twenty seven and a half is where
I started to get like squirrelly, because then you're kind
of you're I think this team will be better, right.
I think it's pretty clear that the rosters better, the
situation around Kate Cunningham is better, the coaching will probably
be I think a little bit more streamlined and better.
But to double your win total, even from a season
from hell, I think it's like a hard expectation to
set on any team. And so I think like twenty
eight twenty nine wins is where I'd be like, ooh, like,
I don't think. I don't think this team has got
that in them. So twenty six twenty seven wins is
about I think where I put this team, which would
be like again, like a thirteen win improvement is not nothing, right, No,
but uh, it's but when you start from such a
low baseline like that, that kind of gets you in trouble,
does it.
Speaker 1: It has to make it maybe the words not enjoyable,
but there has to be more hopefulness involved here, because yeah,
you're working off a low baseline, but there's like that
has to be last year's rock bottom from like that
experience perspective where it's even if they only win, let's
say they hit the under on this, but it's like, oh,
they still won like twenty three games twenty four years,
Like that's ten more. It's eleven more than last year.
Like that that just makes experience a little bit more enjoyable,
I would think. The other I guess it's a twofold
thing is in the East, what would bend fit them
winning more games is like the Nets and the Wizards
are coming out the gate. They don't give a fuck,
like you just you know, like that's going to happen.
And I think that's the right move for them. I
want to be clear. And then there's like some other
teams where Charlotte's always injured. I think they're better if
they're healthy, But will they be healthy in Toronto and
Chicago and Atlanta a kind of caught. It's like one
of those teams the floor is gonna be ripped out
from underneath them, and at Chicago, Uh so we don't
even really need to talk about the other two. So
I think that benefits them where the bottom of the East,
there's gonna be more wins available. But I would ask you, like,
is that something this team is interested in in making
progress in the form of winning games? I think when
you see so many veterans that they signed, my guess
would be yes. But like, is there also a chance like, oh,
it's the trade deadline, it's you know, we're still clearly
not in playing territory, Like do they will call it
morean like late season shenanigans? Like are those potentially in
play if this roster's healthy. I want to make it clear,
not if injuries kind of force their hand.
Speaker 2: No. I definitely think you'll see some like April shenanigans
with this roster. I think this team is better suited
to win games early in the season. I also think, like,
like the Malik Beasley signing, that's definitely like a hey
like contender. Would you like some Malik Beasley at the
trade deadline for for like an early second round pick.
I bet you would right like that. There's there's a
setup for that. So what I'll I'd rather.
Speaker 1: Have Malik Beasley than an early second round pick. If
I'm the Pistons, I'm just like Pearl clutching all the
shooting for this roster on the line.
Speaker 2: I like Malik Beasley. I think you will contribute. I
also think that, like you could find a different Milik Beasley,
like not super difficulty.
Speaker 1: Apparently shooting shooters don't get paid anymore, so you'll find
them next year in the open market.
Speaker 2: I guess fewer people got paid, just like in general,
teams are terrified of the second apron. But the thing
I'll say is that, as a young team who needs
things to look forward to early in the season, before
the squirreliness begins to happen, what I would want to
see from the Pistons is to be to treat the
what is it now, it's the NBA Cup, I was
going to say n Season tournament. It's not the n
season tournament anymore, But to treat the NBA Cup games
like very serious games that you need to win, making
making like I don't expect them to make it to
like the second level of the bracket or whatever. But
they just got like absolutely destroyed in all their n
season tournament games because teams were like, oh, like we
need to kind of get up for this one. And
having that not be the case, being competitive like in
those games in particular, and aiming at those games as
something like, hey, like we know that they want this,
like we should want this too, and having that something
you'd be, having that be something you worked towards early
in the season is something I would like to see
them prioritize.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I really I also want a team like the Piston.
I know the Pacers were kind of like they burst
on a national scene, but we knew the Pacers weren't
going to suck last year. I want a team that's
like very early on or like going through this more
gradual process like to go off. It's like, give me
the Wizards of the Pistons winning me. And can we
call it something else like the NBA Goblet or Chalie,
Like we need to come up with a better name
for what the mid season tournament like title is called.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the the NBA Cup is now sponsored by Immirates,
And when I first saw that, I was like wait,
they're playing in Dubai in like November, Like why, Like,
oh no, just just sponsored, but that's that's definitely coming.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I didn't even think of it like that.
You're probably right, though, Uh okay, So is there anything
anyone that I didn't ask you about related to this
team you think we need discuss to discuss before I
let you skiddattle.
Speaker 2: We we didn't really discuss the vets in only as
far as to say that, like, hey, we think they
will make Kate and the rest of the team better
and introduce a baseline confidence. But like Tobia serious doesn't
suck man, Like he's sucked in his role, and he
sucked in like high profile, high leverage situations. There won't
be any of that in Detroit. Like he'll just be good.
He'll just be like a fine like nineteen and six,
And like the Pistons honestly really could use another like
nineteen and six that like didn't take fifty million shots
to like get to that point. So I think Tobias
has a chance to like re establish some goodwill for
himself in the larger NBA community this season, and I
want to see that happen for him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think he was also even when he was
playing well, Like there was a point in Philly where
it was like he was just quite like a perfect
three and D weapon for them, like he was really
defending his butt off. But I also think that even
during that stretch, everybody looked at his contract number, and
like we're so often guilty of we make players whose
contracts we don't necessarily like or think of positive value,
Like we just assume that player sucks, and it's like
it becomes tough to separate. We do it with young
players too. I mean, I hope I don't do it
specifically too much, but like think about all the players
who were super intriguing, Like remember Tyler Hero before he
signs his extension, and it's like, oh no, whoa Tyler
Hero is awful? And so it's like there's that tendency
like once these players start to make more, if they're
if you're paying the third option what some people believe
to be too much money, Chris Middleton's kind of going
through it right now in Milwaukee. I think, so I
would agree with you. I'm curiously how good he is.
But like I said, to reference Kaitlyn Cooper again, like
the Philly feels like Tobias Harrison Philly feels like a
perfect soul tax situation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and on on your point about uh, like guys
becoming their contract, I'll be really curious to see how
like if Isaiah Hartenstein like doesn't fix okay, sees like
rebounding thing. It's like we're paying thirty million dollars for
this guy and he's like not doing the only thing
we need him to do. It's like I can see
that situation like turning ugly, like very quickly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I see like and sometimes I free even so
I look at the Hartenstein situation specifically, I'm like, I
feel like they paid a we're not going to play
you as much whause you want tax on this, whereas
like you're probably not gonna close because they view Chet
Holmgren as a center in most cases. And like I
don't think he's gonna start I haven't really dug into this,
like what's gonna happen with the Thunder next season yet,
but you're absolutely right, Like I'm sure people are already
doing it. It's like why Isaiah hart and start getting
all this money? And it was also I think he
might have contributed to and even seeing what happened if
you want to found Tunis. After that hit job on
Jared Allen and the Athletic by anonymous sources related to
the Cavaliers, I was shocked he's on an extension, but
I think he also kind of looked at it and
was like, all right, people will still get caught. Like
Jared down at thirty million a year feels like a lot.
It's not in relation to the cap. And to be honest,
like he probably thought like maybe he would get more
in two years. But you're looking kind of the lay
of the land for non superstars right now, It's like, no,
I better take this money right now.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, especially uh, non offensive like Creators Centers. It's
like take whatever money you can get poor like like
Mitchell Robinson and like Robert Williams the third Like I
have no idea what like those next those guys is
like next contracts are going to look like right.
Speaker 1: I would pay if he was healthy. I'd probably pay
Rober Williams a third and one god the amount of money,
which is good that I'm not running an NBA team. Then, last,
this was so great. As always, I always appreciate your time.
I appreciate your insight even more. Are you able just
to tell our listeners where they can find you and
all the fantastic stuff that you are. You want me
to say xing about no, don't don't. I don't want
to say it either.
Speaker 2: Well then Dan, I always I will say, I always
appreciate you having me on. I feel very valued by
your continued apprisal of my expertise. That makes me feel good.
People can follow me on Twitter, not x on Twitter
at last chance that's at la z c h A
n ce uh now that I might like, I just
did a move, so I'm back in Michigan now, and
so I'm hopeful, like I'll buy a house eventually and
then I'll be really settled in and then I'll start
writing it to Troy Bad Boys again. But I will
say the podcast due of Blake Silverman and West Davenport
have done a really great job with their podcast The
pin Down for Us over Detroit bad Boys. So check
out that podcast. And then yeah, I did the UH.
I was like guest host for like a month on
James Edwards the Third's UH Patreon podcast, The Detroit Players
podcast that's like three bucks a month. Check that out
as well. You get great insight. But yeah, you'll you'll
see me a little bit of everywhere during the season,
and that's the way I like it.
Speaker 1: I love it, Love your tweets, miss your the pin
down is very good. I'll second that that's the most
Like frequent Pistons podcast I listened to, I miss your
podcasting and I've actually shouted you out a bunch of
times as when I'm doing solo episodes, which I hate doing.
Our audience doesn't seem to mind them, though, which is
I mean, that's a good thing.
Speaker 2: You've done a good job with them. Again, like I
listened like, you've done a good job with them.
Speaker 1: I just buse them. You when you were doing your
Pistons podcast, and a lot of it was solo, You
and Keith Parrish like two of the best solo podcasters
I've ever listened to, where his case watched and so
kudos to you for being able to do that. I
miss hearing your your voice on podcast though, so hopefully
that that can be remedied at some point in the
in the near future. Thank you so much. Once again,
take care, I'll talk to you soon. Last