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<v Speaker 1>Hello, everyone, Welcome back to the nonprofits.

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<v Speaker 2>You know many of us have regrets, but do any

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<v Speaker 2>of your regrets include sending your child to gay conversion therapy?

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<v Speaker 2>Steven has that story. Steven, please take it the gay away.

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<v Speaker 3>Thank you, Helen. There have never been, and there never

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<v Speaker 3>will be, perfect parents, not even you, Mary. Connie Hoying

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<v Speaker 3>is no exception. The difference is most parents don't bring

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<v Speaker 3>their sons to conversion therapy, to a conversion therapy session

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<v Speaker 3>and then write a book about it. Connie's son, Scott Hoying,

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<v Speaker 3>is a singer in the a cappella group The Pentatonics,

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<v Speaker 3>and her new memoir recounts Scott's coming out, the day

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<v Speaker 3>that she brought her to an XAA counselor, and the

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<v Speaker 3>regret that they both experienced afterwards. The story is from

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<v Speaker 3>LGBTQ Nation by Connie Hoying on May fifth, twenty twenty five.

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<v Speaker 1>So being me, I'm going to shake things up. So Cindy.

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<v Speaker 2>As reading your notes, and you spoke very powerfully about

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<v Speaker 2>like outdated and context, the dependence of gender issues and roles.

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<v Speaker 2>So given that, why do you think in religious like

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<v Speaker 2>communities cling like so freaking tight to like gender norms

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<v Speaker 2>and sexual behaviors that have to fit a sort of

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<v Speaker 2>like cis straight mold even though like the evidence shows otherwise,

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<v Speaker 2>Like what's your Also that also causes.

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<v Speaker 4>Harm, like what is your kind of like feelings about that?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, my feelings are.

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<v Speaker 5>I don't know that they're very strong. But the depth

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<v Speaker 5>of the religious people's hypocrisy, it's always extremely staring to me.

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<v Speaker 5>I just can't get over it. How they shift homosexuality

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<v Speaker 5>as being a lifestyle as they say it, allowing them

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<v Speaker 5>to criticize it as much as possible. That just drives

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<v Speaker 5>me crazy because it shows how outdated their warview is,

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<v Speaker 5>and that on two fronts. First, there's the idea that

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<v Speaker 5>your sexual orientation is defined while your fitus, and that

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<v Speaker 5>doesn't change. You're either capable of feigning in love with men, women,

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<v Speaker 5>or anything in between, or you're not. Then there's sexual behavior,

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<v Speaker 5>which is usually aligned to your orientation, but can be

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<v Speaker 5>different depending on your environment, like living in a country

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<v Speaker 5>where asexuality is panished by death, for example, like it's

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<v Speaker 5>the case in sixty four countries today. That's one of

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<v Speaker 5>the case that would make you differ from your orientation.

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<v Speaker 5>And then the second view is that there's an almost

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<v Speaker 5>worship of general roles in Christianity and also in Islam

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<v Speaker 5>so strong, I would say, uh. And Christians believe it

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<v Speaker 5>to be timeless and universal, which is nonsense because two

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<v Speaker 5>hundred years ago men used to work to wear weeks

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<v Speaker 5>and high heels. For centuries long, hair was a sign

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<v Speaker 5>of strength and power in men. Its general rules have

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<v Speaker 5>been evolving for for as long as we've been humans.

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<v Speaker 5>And the fact that the the the region, the region,

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<v Speaker 5>and the communities around Christianity just don't want to to

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<v Speaker 5>understand this or even admit it. It's like I said,

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<v Speaker 5>it draws me crazy.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And that's kind of you know, goes back to

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<v Speaker 2>the article that we were talking about earlier this week

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<v Speaker 2>about like how self regulating structures kind of you know,

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<v Speaker 2>end up being perpetrators of abuse. And this kind of

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<v Speaker 2>feeds into that, where this idea that if your child

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<v Speaker 2>is queer, that they we just send them to this

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<v Speaker 2>camp or the social stubic therapy and it's like, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>the behavior made stuff, but you didn't stop your child

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<v Speaker 2>from like being queer. You just made their life much

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<v Speaker 2>much harder. So good for you parents. Yay so eja

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<v Speaker 2>uh person of.

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<v Speaker 4>Many many different lights and colors.

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<v Speaker 2>So you described conversion therapy accurately as torture.

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<v Speaker 1>So if we accept that, why.

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<v Speaker 2>Isn't it being uh treated us as such like Australia

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<v Speaker 2>has completely for example, has completely banded, is considered abuse.

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<v Speaker 1>They will not allow it.

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<v Speaker 2>You can't even do it like as part of like

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<v Speaker 2>your church, like you cannot do this form of therapy.

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<v Speaker 2>So that being said, recognizing that, you know, calling a

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<v Speaker 2>spade a spade, why do you think that it is

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<v Speaker 2>still being perpetuated and perpetrated and why are we kind

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<v Speaker 2>of a lot of people just like kind of letting

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<v Speaker 2>you continue to happen.

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<v Speaker 6>So I feel one of the big reasons that it

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<v Speaker 6>is not prosecuted as torture, which I usually go with

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<v Speaker 6>the definition that's an article one of the Unions conventioning

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<v Speaker 6>as torture and other cool inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

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<v Speaker 6>The reason that a lot of people I feel don't

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<v Speaker 6>prosecute it is the people who did it are still alive.

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<v Speaker 6>Like this is not a thing that is vehemently in

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<v Speaker 6>the past. There are people who I grew up with

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<v Speaker 6>who went through it. There are people who I know

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<v Speaker 6>who have went through it. The people are very much

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<v Speaker 6>still alive.

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<v Speaker 3>So the fact that.

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<v Speaker 6>If you were to prosecute this as torture, there would

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<v Speaker 6>be a big push to retroactively, to retroactively prosecute. And

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<v Speaker 6>given that this would be a crime that wouldn't have

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<v Speaker 6>a very short statute of limitations, it would be it

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<v Speaker 6>would mean a lot of people who would, you know,

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<v Speaker 6>perhaps say that they they're against it, but they really

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<v Speaker 6>weren't back in the day. It would mean they're going

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<v Speaker 6>away for considerable time, which is i'd say justified. But

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<v Speaker 6>there would have to be a lot of reform so

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<v Speaker 6>that to go in place.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean kind of pick you off with that.

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<v Speaker 2>The leader of the Exodus movement, which was a gay

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<v Speaker 2>conversion program that was done in the eighties and nineties

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<v Speaker 2>up into the two thousands in the United States, he

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<v Speaker 2>later came out as gay and he was a perpetrator

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<v Speaker 2>conversion of therapy.

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<v Speaker 1>And he's now and like.

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<v Speaker 2>She was credited, he is now you know, walking his walk,

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<v Speaker 2>and he is he is he's actively fighting his conversion therapy.

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<v Speaker 2>He knows the harm that he did because of religious indoctrination,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, and the self hatred that he kind of

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<v Speaker 2>projected outwards.

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<v Speaker 1>So you know, good on him for that.

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<v Speaker 2>But that being said, like Stephen, you pointed out that

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<v Speaker 2>you know a lot of these kids and families are

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<v Speaker 2>being cohersed and to doing these you know, conversion therapies.

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<v Speaker 1>So how how do you make like.

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<v Speaker 2>A lawmaker and go, hey, maybe maybe don't do this thing.

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<v Speaker 2>How do you get them to kind of understand that

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<v Speaker 2>you can have a spiritual faith but also that has

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<v Speaker 2>to stop when we're looking at abuse.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, exactly, Like coersion is the right word. Like

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<v Speaker 3>I remember, like the when I was m seeing our

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<v Speaker 3>local pride event and I called out our local federal

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<v Speaker 3>member of Parliament because he was one of the few

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<v Speaker 3>a handful of MPs who would not back a bill

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<v Speaker 3>that would ban conversion therapy. And I called him out

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<v Speaker 3>for that and that harmful stance that he was taken.

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<v Speaker 3>And he wasn't there obviously, of course, but he responded

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<v Speaker 3>in our local newspapers saying, well, no one is being

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<v Speaker 3>forced to take coercion therapy. Nobody has a gun to

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<v Speaker 3>their head, which is just the just such an absurd

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<v Speaker 3>stance to take, because yeah, it's all about the coercion

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<v Speaker 3>and the fact that and especially like let me tell you,

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<v Speaker 3>this material is like right in my wheelhouse, Like there

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<v Speaker 3>isn't Like almost every week I'm talking about the intersect

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<v Speaker 3>of queer and faith over on my channel. So I'm

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<v Speaker 3>constantly constantly dealing with these people who think that X

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<v Speaker 3>gay ministries are something that are beneficial because it's like

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<v Speaker 3>especially it is especially insidious for and like I can

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<v Speaker 3>only speak to this experience as a gay man right

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<v Speaker 3>who had put himself through his own conversion. Growing up

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<v Speaker 3>queer in the in a heteronormative world is so difficult

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<v Speaker 3>because you see everyone around you and you want to

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<v Speaker 3>be the same as everyone around you, and you can't

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<v Speaker 3>be the same as everyone around you, so it is

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<v Speaker 3>really challenging to That's why validation is so incredibly important.

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<v Speaker 3>You're seeking validation in spite of being different from this

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<v Speaker 3>hetero normative world. So when a young Christian is seeking

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<v Speaker 3>out that validation and the straight men in his church say, yes,

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<v Speaker 3>of course, of course you can have validation. So long

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<v Speaker 3>as you do this, so long as you're straight enough, yes,

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<v Speaker 3>then we will validate you. And you're abusing the trust

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<v Speaker 3>of that child, of that miner, of that teenager. And

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<v Speaker 3>when you abuse the trust of a child, you abuse

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<v Speaker 3>the child. And so that's how they get coerced into

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<v Speaker 3>these situations because this carot is being dangled in front

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<v Speaker 3>of them, and they'll if there are anything like me,

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<v Speaker 3>like so many people who have survived this xcay conversion therapy,

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<v Speaker 3>then they'll do whatever it takes to try to line

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<v Speaker 3>up with what the heteronormative patriarchal church wants it to be.

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<v Speaker 3>How do we get lawmakers to appreciate that? Well, I

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<v Speaker 3>don't know if we can make them. Either you have

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<v Speaker 3>the decency to see that for yourselves, or you have

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<v Speaker 3>the or you prefer to you see things through your

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<v Speaker 3>your patriarchal view and ignore the fact that not that

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<v Speaker 3>this is harmful, Like, how do we do it other

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<v Speaker 3>than through our votes? Right?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, seeing that I live in the bad I live

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<v Speaker 2>in the bad place. That's not happening anytime soon because

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<v Speaker 2>they keep you know, rolling back queer rights so great

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<v Speaker 2>for us.

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<v Speaker 4>I love living under LA fascists and it's fantastic anyway.

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<v Speaker 2>That being said, Uh, that's my opinion. You don't you

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<v Speaker 2>have to take it. Just my opinion. But that being said,

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<v Speaker 2>as one of three queer people on this panel, I

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<v Speaker 2>can definitely tell that not only as someone that had

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<v Speaker 2>to untangle their own internal bigotry and their own internal

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<v Speaker 2>sexism against the messaging you get from religion, you're still

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<v Speaker 2>experiencing in the culture.

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<v Speaker 1>So, Sidney, you're.

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<v Speaker 2>A queer person, how do you personally navigate like conversations

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<v Speaker 2>with people when they kind of weaponize that bakertry when

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<v Speaker 2>you're you have like facts on your side over here

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<v Speaker 2>and historical information, and then over here you got a

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<v Speaker 2>person that is, like, you know, like everybody should be

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<v Speaker 2>sitting straight just deal with it because God said so.

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<v Speaker 2>So how do you how do you think people should

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<v Speaker 2>be navigating those conversations?

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<v Speaker 5>Well, you can't deal with the conversion therapy discussion before

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<v Speaker 5>you deal with the uh the false ideas behind almost sexuality,

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<v Speaker 5>because the first one is derived from the latter. You

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<v Speaker 5>can't have conversion therapy unless you have a religious belief

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<v Speaker 5>that homosexuality is wrong. So you need to fight this first.

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<v Speaker 5>You need to show evidence that that homossexuality is innate

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<v Speaker 5>and not learned. And so there are also many so

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<v Speaker 5>many ways to show it, like uh, I don't know,

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<v Speaker 5>ask ask a person or ask a uh heterosexual person

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<v Speaker 5>if they would be able to feel in love, to

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<v Speaker 5>fall in love with someone of their gender and see

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<v Speaker 5>them squirm, and and and how do you think it's

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<v Speaker 5>it's working for me? If if you can't and I can,

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<v Speaker 5>then there's fundamentally something different between you and me. And

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<v Speaker 5>and that's that's the first that comes to my mind.

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<v Speaker 5>But again, until we we remove all the the advantages

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<v Speaker 5>and benefits that religion has in society, we will not

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<v Speaker 5>get rid of this. Luckily, some countries have started to

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<v Speaker 5>to ban and forbid conventional therapy like uh, Stevens said.

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<v Speaker 3>Uh.

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<v Speaker 5>Several countries in in Europe, like including Portugal, Cyprus, UH, Iceland, Friends, Uh, Greece.

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<v Speaker 3>Uh.

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<v Speaker 5>All those countries have legislated on this. So it can

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<v Speaker 5>happen by peer pressure, I mean in terms of countries,

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<v Speaker 5>but it will take time.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>And and unfortunately, for some reason, we keep trying to

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<v Speaker 2>take things back over and over again.

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<v Speaker 1>I do want to apologize, e J.

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<v Speaker 2>I did not realize you were also queer your I know,

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<v Speaker 2>Stephen and sending a little bit better.

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<v Speaker 1>So I am sorry. So everybody is queer.

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<v Speaker 5>I don't blame you.

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<v Speaker 6>I look I look very straight.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm sorry. That was I shouldn't have assumed like

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<v Speaker 2>I said, I did. I did a stereotype, so Joze.

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<v Speaker 1>So now that I'm talking to you, it's right.

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<v Speaker 2>So so in your notes you kind of made like

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<v Speaker 2>the really great point of putting queer people together. We

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<v Speaker 2>won't putting queer periods. You'll fix them. It often makes

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<v Speaker 2>them stronger, which is true. Like you get about your

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<v Speaker 2>queer people together, You're not going to make it straight.

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<v Speaker 1>It's not going to happen.

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<v Speaker 2>So, so that being said, I've never been through conversion therapy.

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<v Speaker 1>I have no freaking clue what it's like.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm I have to imagine from the stories I've heard

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<v Speaker 2>of people then through conversion therapy, it is very very Steve, it's.

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<v Speaker 1>Not and Wieland's ryebrows at me.

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<v Speaker 2>So I'll go to you minute, Stephen, So I wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to get your why do you think it's so aggressive?

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<v Speaker 2>And then we can talk to Stephen about his experience

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<v Speaker 2>going through conversion therapy.

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<v Speaker 1>I bet it was so much fun, so it stuck.

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<v Speaker 6>So I've not been to any conversion therapy because it's

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<v Speaker 6>illegal here, but I have been to a lovely little

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<v Speaker 6>work around, which is you know, the Bible says be straight.

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<v Speaker 6>This isn't conversion therapy, but go on and it's horrible.

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<v Speaker 6>Although what tends to happen, at least from my experience,

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<v Speaker 6>isn't that you get a bunch of people who want

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<v Speaker 6>to be straight. It's that you get a bunch of

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<v Speaker 6>people who are you know, everyone is queer, and after

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<v Speaker 6>a couple of days you kind of go, huh, if

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<v Speaker 6>we're all ourselves, this feels actually quite nice.

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<v Speaker 1>You know what this is?

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<v Speaker 6>Maybe we should just always do this And it tends

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<v Speaker 6>to backfire horribly, which I don't know how the camps

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<v Speaker 6>don't see coming because most of the people who run

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<v Speaker 6>them are either very repressive or so far in the

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<v Speaker 6>closet they're having tea with Aslan, so you think they

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<v Speaker 6>would see it coming, but they don't.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah you would, and like kind of if you guys

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<v Speaker 2>have ever seen the movie but I'm a cheerleader, where

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<v Speaker 2>you put a bunch of queer kids together, relationships are

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<v Speaker 2>going to start to form. If you put a bunch

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<v Speaker 2>of queer kids in a camp and they're left to

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<v Speaker 2>their own devices. Teenagers be teenagers exactly. So Steven, you

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<v Speaker 2>were raising your eyebrows, please sure.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, like it is it is, like, yeah, again, like

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<v Speaker 3>I was reading the books and I was certainly seeing

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<v Speaker 3>the counselors who are trying to help me be straight,

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<v Speaker 3>just like God says that he wants. And it's just

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<v Speaker 3>it's it's so yeah, okay, yeah, I guess it's kind

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<v Speaker 3>of traumatizing, isn't it to yeah, to to be told

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<v Speaker 3>that you are not right and to believe them that

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<v Speaker 3>you are not right, and to pour everything you can

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<v Speaker 3>into being right. It's it is. It is why I

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<v Speaker 3>am doing what I'm doing online now so that if

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<v Speaker 3>there is any a younger version of me out there

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<v Speaker 3>who needs to hear that he she They don't need

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<v Speaker 3>to change. They are fine just the way they are.

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<v Speaker 3>And it's interesting that in this book that Connie here

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<v Speaker 3>has written about her son, it's not that he went

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<v Speaker 3>to conversion therapy and then they realized that it was wrong.

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<v Speaker 3>It was that The story is they were on a

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<v Speaker 3>long drive and he came out to her, and then

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<v Speaker 3>she was like, oh, well, I love you just as

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<v Speaker 3>you are, but maybe don't come out while you're still

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<v Speaker 3>like a senior in Texas. Maybe wait till you go

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<v Speaker 3>to university in California and then come out. It might

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<v Speaker 3>be better for you, and he's like, okay, And then

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<v Speaker 3>he found out about a counselor who was gay but

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<v Speaker 3>wasn't gay anymore, and so his mom booked him an

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<v Speaker 3>appointment for that, and then like as they drew closer,

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<v Speaker 3>he got cold feet, and she's like, oh, well, let's

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<v Speaker 3>at least hear him out. Maybe he has something useful.

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<v Speaker 3>Because this was the early two thousand, so ex gay

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<v Speaker 3>ministry didn't have the reputation that it does now in

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<v Speaker 3>many circles. So then she kind of coerced him into

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<v Speaker 3>attending the session and that's where she learned what conversion

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<v Speaker 3>therapy was all about. And Scott, he wasn't having any

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<v Speaker 3>of it. He stood up for himself and he said, hey,

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<v Speaker 3>if God made me this way, then I don't need

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<v Speaker 3>to reject it. And then that was that was it

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<v Speaker 3>for their time. They left and they were sad and

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<v Speaker 3>they were shaken, but he wasn't. He wasn't impacted by

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<v Speaker 3>it the same way that so many of us are

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<v Speaker 3>when we are so desperate for that validation. And I

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<v Speaker 3>just I'm so curious, like who was this book written for?

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<v Speaker 3>Like this is a memoir of Scott's entire life. I

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<v Speaker 3>guess he's in his twenties thirties now, I guess so,

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<v Speaker 3>and is written by his mom, but the foreword by him.

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<v Speaker 3>But like it is it written for? Is it a

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<v Speaker 3>cautionary tale for moms who don't have the wherewithal to

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<v Speaker 3>know what conversion therapy is? Or is it written for

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<v Speaker 3>other you know, cis gay white boys who were more

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<v Speaker 3>traumatized by conversion therapy? Or is it written for gay

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<v Speaker 3>men who didn't know that Scott has recently launched his

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<v Speaker 3>solo career and maybe they would like to know a

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<v Speaker 3>little bit more about him and maybe by his album.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know who this book is for, but if you,

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<v Speaker 3>if you want to, if you, if anybody, if anybody,

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<v Speaker 3>if anybody, needs to have a better understanding of what

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<v Speaker 3>exactly is involved in conversion therapy and hear that first

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<v Speaker 3>hand account an amazing book slash movie called Boy Erased. Well,

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<v Speaker 3>it's besides the documentary Prey Away Boy Race was written

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<v Speaker 3>by someone who went through it firsthand and struggled with

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<v Speaker 3>trying to live up to his minister father's footsteps and

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<v Speaker 3>his struggle and the torture that he endured at the

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<v Speaker 3>hands of these of these straight men who are just

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<v Speaker 3>trying to reconcile their faith with these gay boys in

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<v Speaker 3>front of them the best way they know how, and

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<v Speaker 3>they still get a failing grade on it.

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<v Speaker 1>So Sinny found words.

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<v Speaker 5>But then just to forbid them and making those two

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<v Speaker 5>forbid them. It's it's it's a barbaric uh to practice.

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<v Speaker 5>It's like, what's the name the trepanation, the thing that

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<v Speaker 5>was made to uh two people like five hundred years ago.

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<v Speaker 5>It's it's yeah, it's it's barbaric, it's stupid, it doesn't work,

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<v Speaker 5>and it hurts people. Just get rid of it. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 5>it's simple.

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<v Speaker 6>Ideas, just that I'm in complete agreement. The sooner that

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<v Speaker 6>we finally get this practice off the planet for not

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<v Speaker 6>only just gay, bisexual, but also trans individuals, especially youth,

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<v Speaker 6>it will be so much better for the world because

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<v Speaker 6>then we can finally start tackling issues that we should

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<v Speaker 6>really be focusing on, because we shouldn't have to tell

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<v Speaker 6>people the torturing kids is.

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<v Speaker 2>Wrong theme on this show that were constantly talking about,

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<v Speaker 2>don't torture children. If you want to learn more about

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<v Speaker 2>non torturing children and why it's bad, please click on

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<v Speaker 2>a video. I also like subscribe and real people we'll

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<v Speaker 2>see you next time.