WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:03.439 Imagine the place where you can escape for a day, 2 00:00:04.280 --> 00:00:08.800 get immerged in a world of rooms, inspiration and expertise, 3 00:00:09.359 --> 00:00:14.480 where you can lay in luxury, accommodation and kids cam 4 00:00:14.560 --> 00:00:20.320 fees from ninety five sets. Tickets are free to everyone 5 00:00:20.559 --> 00:00:25.559 and include all the attractions you've just imagined a day 6 00:00:25.719 --> 00:00:28.879 out at Ikia Ikia the Wonderful. 7 00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:31.960 Every day, your flat out and your to do list 8 00:00:32.000 --> 00:00:35.719 is grown by the minute, but unfortunately so is your headache, 9 00:00:35.759 --> 00:00:41.000 and now you've gone from flat out to flattened. Luckily, 10 00:00:41.159 --> 00:00:44.880 Panodal extra film coated tablets are boosted by caffeine and 11 00:00:44.920 --> 00:00:47.159 they get to work in as little as ten minutes 12 00:00:47.960 --> 00:00:51.560 for powerful relief. That's more than just paracetamol. That's one 13 00:00:51.640 --> 00:00:56.240 for panadal speed based on absorption data contains paracetamol. Always 14 00:00:56.240 --> 00:00:57.320 read the label or leaflet. 15 00:01:00.399 --> 00:01:02.759 Oh hey, it's your stepsister's weird friend who comes over 16 00:01:02.799 --> 00:01:05.640 and eats all your good cereal. Alleyboard back with another 17 00:01:05.680 --> 00:01:08.760 episode of Ologies. Also, a mini episode went up today 18 00:01:08.760 --> 00:01:12.280 about some New Year's changes and they're very exciting and 19 00:01:12.359 --> 00:01:14.680 they're very near and dear to my heart. So please 20 00:01:14.680 --> 00:01:16.480 take a few minutes to catch up on that news. 21 00:01:16.840 --> 00:01:19.599 Should you desire. It's a lot of really good stuff 22 00:01:19.680 --> 00:01:22.319 and I'm excited. Okay, so I have been waiting to 23 00:01:22.359 --> 00:01:26.799 cover this particular ology for months. Hot damn. Whether you 24 00:01:26.920 --> 00:01:32.079 are currently smothered in a live cats or are adamantly 25 00:01:32.280 --> 00:01:35.760 a dog or a turtle person, this episode is going 26 00:01:35.799 --> 00:01:40.879 to inform you and endear you to our bewhiskered companions. 27 00:01:40.920 --> 00:01:45.239 So hardcore because cats, you guys, they're not all dicks. 28 00:01:45.879 --> 00:01:48.799 We get into it, okay, but first let's just wild 29 00:01:48.840 --> 00:01:51.760 out little business in which I think the patrons at 30 00:01:51.799 --> 00:01:54.840 patreon dot com slash Ologies. You guys make the show possible. 31 00:01:55.200 --> 00:01:58.879 You're such good friends to the show. Thank you also 32 00:01:58.920 --> 00:02:02.359 to everyone wearing Ologies shirts and such from ologiesmerch dot 33 00:02:02.400 --> 00:02:06.560 com ps we now have black shirts available science goths. 34 00:02:07.159 --> 00:02:09.840 And thank you to everyone who subscribes and rates and 35 00:02:09.879 --> 00:02:12.800 leaves a review which you know I read, Yeah I 36 00:02:12.800 --> 00:02:15.960 read them, Yeah, I'm a creep. And this week's fresh 37 00:02:16.000 --> 00:02:20.639 review is from number one Kuthu Stan, who says this 38 00:02:20.800 --> 00:02:24.000 is the science podcast my soul has craped since birth. 39 00:02:24.080 --> 00:02:27.400 They say it's an intoxicating blend of funny and mind 40 00:02:27.479 --> 00:02:30.159 bendingly strange. Ten out of ten would recommend to any 41 00:02:30.199 --> 00:02:34.840 person eldritche being mythological creature, gaping void of existential horror, 42 00:02:35.360 --> 00:02:38.840 all of the above right here. Okay. Felinology it comes 43 00:02:38.879 --> 00:02:41.919 from the Latin for cat felis, and I started to 44 00:02:41.960 --> 00:02:45.960 go down this whole rabbit hole, whole catacomb. I'm sorry 45 00:02:46.479 --> 00:02:51.159 whether or not felicity, like felis and happiness and feline 46 00:02:51.280 --> 00:02:54.719 shared an etymology, and from what I found, they don't 47 00:02:55.080 --> 00:02:57.719 at all. But I did have a galaxied brain moment 48 00:02:57.840 --> 00:03:00.479 realizing that felix a cat is because of feel like 49 00:03:00.520 --> 00:03:03.800 a duh. I never got that. Also pocket knowledge for 50 00:03:03.840 --> 00:03:06.879 your next bar trivia slaughter. A group of cats can 51 00:03:06.919 --> 00:03:09.919 be referred to as a clouder or better yet, a 52 00:03:09.960 --> 00:03:13.280 glaring So I hope that helps you somewhere in your life. 53 00:03:13.439 --> 00:03:16.520 But it's taken me seventy episodes to cover feelinology because 54 00:03:16.560 --> 00:03:21.199 I just wanted to get the best person for the job. Boy, 55 00:03:21.280 --> 00:03:24.439 howdy did I? She is a postdoctoral fellow in Animal 56 00:03:24.479 --> 00:03:27.280 behavior in the School of Veterinary Medicine in the University 57 00:03:27.319 --> 00:03:33.439 of California Davis, studying kittens neonatal tiny kittens, and she 58 00:03:33.520 --> 00:03:35.520 got her bachelor's in psychology and then she got a 59 00:03:35.520 --> 00:03:39.520 PhD at cal Berkeley in animal cognition, and she's co 60 00:03:39.560 --> 00:03:43.639 authored various papers, for example, cat Play, a review of 61 00:03:43.639 --> 00:03:48.840 its development functions and future research considerations, and Beyond Bossy 62 00:03:49.280 --> 00:03:53.840 Feline Status Aggression. So she's also the co author, alongside 63 00:03:53.960 --> 00:03:57.400 Animal Planets by Cat from Hell host Jackson Galaxy, of 64 00:03:57.439 --> 00:04:01.039 the book Total Cat Mojo, The Ultimate Guide to Life 65 00:04:01.039 --> 00:04:04.439 with Your Cat. Woman wrote the book on cats, and 66 00:04:04.479 --> 00:04:07.800 if you deconstruct her last name phonetically, it sounds like 67 00:04:07.960 --> 00:04:11.599 oh the cat in Spanish, I mean, come on, okay. 68 00:04:11.639 --> 00:04:13.919 So I went to her home outside of Davis, California, 69 00:04:14.000 --> 00:04:17.120 over the holidays. I petitor cat first off, and then 70 00:04:17.240 --> 00:04:21.839 we chatted about catitudes, litter boxes, how to keep your 71 00:04:21.839 --> 00:04:25.000 bff from sitting on your face at three in the morning, 72 00:04:25.560 --> 00:04:30.800 cats on toilets, loll videos, cat training, feral friends, optimal 73 00:04:30.879 --> 00:04:34.399 cat habitats, who will eat your corpse if you die alone? 74 00:04:34.800 --> 00:04:38.639 Kiddies and their domestication history, and cats are they dicks 75 00:04:38.720 --> 00:04:41.279 or what? So stretch out on a patch of sun 76 00:04:41.399 --> 00:04:45.480 and learn what's happening in their minds with author, scholar 77 00:04:45.959 --> 00:05:06.600 and philinologist doctor Michael Delgado. 78 00:05:07.560 --> 00:05:10.319 It's very common. People think it's Michael, So, yeah. 79 00:05:10.279 --> 00:05:13.839 Right, that's what I wasn't sure and doctor, of course, 80 00:05:13.959 --> 00:05:19.120 doctor yes, and so how long have you been studying cats? 81 00:05:19.279 --> 00:05:21.560 So coming up on twenty years. I got my start 82 00:05:21.600 --> 00:05:25.000 in an animal shelter in the behavior program there, and 83 00:05:25.399 --> 00:05:28.240 got a PhD in animal behavior at UC Berkeley, where 84 00:05:28.279 --> 00:05:31.480 I primarily studied squirrels, but I also looked at the 85 00:05:31.480 --> 00:05:33.800 cat human relationship while I was at Berkeley, and I 86 00:05:33.879 --> 00:05:36.759 knew when I finished my PhD that I wanted to 87 00:05:37.800 --> 00:05:40.680 finally have the opportunity to do research with cats. And 88 00:05:40.720 --> 00:05:42.759 so that's one of the reasons that I was really 89 00:05:42.800 --> 00:05:45.360 excited to do my post doc at UC Davis, where 90 00:05:45.360 --> 00:05:48.600 there's a veterinary school and there's also an animal behavior program, 91 00:05:48.680 --> 00:05:50.600 so it's kind of the perfect place to be studying 92 00:05:50.600 --> 00:05:52.839 animal behavior and the perfect place to study cats. 93 00:05:53.560 --> 00:05:56.319 Are cats and squirrels alike in terms of behavior at all? 94 00:05:57.439 --> 00:06:00.560 There's certain I mean, I guess if you think of 95 00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:06.879 them as naughty, I think they both evoke strong emotions 96 00:06:06.920 --> 00:06:08.839 than people, like people either really love them or really 97 00:06:08.879 --> 00:06:14.120 hate them. But they are kind of territorial. Their social 98 00:06:14.199 --> 00:06:16.600 lives are different, but neither of them lives in like 99 00:06:16.639 --> 00:06:19.879 a pack they're not animals that kind of naturally have 100 00:06:20.199 --> 00:06:23.560 strong relationships that make sense to us, because we're very 101 00:06:23.639 --> 00:06:27.399 used to kind of a group kind of structure where 102 00:06:27.439 --> 00:06:29.879 there's a clear hierarchy, and I would say neither cats 103 00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:32.480 nor squirrels have that kind of relationship. 104 00:06:32.920 --> 00:06:36.120 So we're cats more of a lone wolf than wolves. 105 00:06:36.720 --> 00:06:39.519 So I think cats kind of have this reputation for 106 00:06:39.639 --> 00:06:43.759 being solitary, and what they are is they're solitary hunters, 107 00:06:44.160 --> 00:06:47.240 so they don't need other animals to survive, right. They 108 00:06:47.360 --> 00:06:49.439 hunt very small prey that they can catch on their 109 00:06:49.439 --> 00:06:51.920 own and they don't share it, which is different from 110 00:06:52.240 --> 00:06:55.839 larger animals that hunt and capture large animals. And so 111 00:06:55.920 --> 00:06:58.199 I think because of that, cat's got this reputation for 112 00:06:58.319 --> 00:07:01.879 being asocial where they don't need anybody, and we know 113 00:07:01.959 --> 00:07:04.360 that their social lives are definitely more complicated than that. 114 00:07:04.600 --> 00:07:06.680 So it's like when you go out to a nice 115 00:07:06.800 --> 00:07:09.360 Chinese restaurant and you say, hey, should we all get 116 00:07:09.720 --> 00:07:12.639 a bunch of dishes? Do family style? Cats are the 117 00:07:12.680 --> 00:07:14.920 friends who are like, Nah, I'm just gonna get my 118 00:07:14.920 --> 00:07:18.399 own noodles. I don't do it. Solitary hunters, got it. 119 00:07:18.480 --> 00:07:22.040 I can respect that now this next tidbit, it's amazing, 120 00:07:22.279 --> 00:07:26.079 it's relatable, and dare I say it's a little catty. 121 00:07:26.240 --> 00:07:29.959 Cats will form what we call preferred associates where they 122 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:32.759 have certain cats that they like to hang out with, 123 00:07:32.839 --> 00:07:36.439 and some signs of them being friends would be they 124 00:07:36.480 --> 00:07:40.439 groom each other, they sleep together, like touching, or what 125 00:07:40.480 --> 00:07:42.759 we call pillowing where they're actually using another cat as 126 00:07:42.800 --> 00:07:46.839 a pillow. You might see playful behavior. And in general, 127 00:07:46.920 --> 00:07:48.519 you know that you don't see a lot of science 128 00:07:48.560 --> 00:07:51.160 of antagonism, although I'd say, just like you know, we 129 00:07:51.160 --> 00:07:53.000 don't get along with our siblings one hundred percent of 130 00:07:53.040 --> 00:07:55.920 the time, you might see the occasional tip. So they 131 00:07:55.959 --> 00:07:58.360 have clicks they do, and you'll see if you have 132 00:07:58.720 --> 00:08:00.519 a group of cats that you you know, say if 133 00:08:00.560 --> 00:08:02.439 you live with five cats, you might have two cats 134 00:08:02.480 --> 00:08:04.879 that get along with each other and not with anyone else, 135 00:08:04.879 --> 00:08:08.480 and the other three cats could be composed of, you know, 136 00:08:08.519 --> 00:08:10.839 one cat who doesn't get along with anybody and another 137 00:08:10.839 --> 00:08:13.079 pair who get along, or maybe there's one cat who 138 00:08:13.079 --> 00:08:15.560 gets along with everybody, but the rest of the cats 139 00:08:15.600 --> 00:08:17.839 don't really like each other. So it can be very complicated. 140 00:08:17.959 --> 00:08:19.959 So that's skins of the rules, and you can't sit 141 00:08:20.040 --> 00:08:20.439 with us. 142 00:08:20.680 --> 00:08:23.199 Okay, here it is. This is a secret. What makes 143 00:08:23.199 --> 00:08:24.959 a cat an asshole or not? 144 00:08:25.279 --> 00:08:27.399 What we do see is that cat groups are most 145 00:08:27.399 --> 00:08:30.319 successful when they have enough resources. So you'll see feral 146 00:08:30.399 --> 00:08:35.360 colonies that exist because there's either plenty of prey around 147 00:08:35.559 --> 00:08:37.720 or there's human supplied food. So there has to be 148 00:08:37.879 --> 00:08:40.440 enough to go around basically for them to tolerate each 149 00:08:40.440 --> 00:08:43.919 other and then have the opportunity to become friends. But yeah, 150 00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:47.279 if you don't have enough resources, either in your home 151 00:08:47.399 --> 00:08:50.840 or outside, or there's too much competition they have to 152 00:08:50.879 --> 00:08:53.639 do too much sharing of those resources, then they tend 153 00:08:53.679 --> 00:08:57.480 to either have antagonistic interactions or they'll just avoid each other. 154 00:08:57.799 --> 00:09:01.240 So they get bitchy when there's scarce exactly like. 155 00:09:01.200 --> 00:09:03.320 All of us, right, if there's not enough cookies to 156 00:09:03.360 --> 00:09:04.159 go around. 157 00:09:04.279 --> 00:09:06.440 There's gonna be I'll cut someone. 158 00:09:06.519 --> 00:09:08.519 Yeah exactly. You don't have to be that person that 159 00:09:08.600 --> 00:09:10.720 leaves the last cookie. You know, everyone's kind of staring 160 00:09:10.759 --> 00:09:12.559 at the last one, like who's gonna eat it? And 161 00:09:12.720 --> 00:09:14.000 you can just grab it. 162 00:09:14.080 --> 00:09:15.559 I'll throw hands for it. Yeah. 163 00:09:15.840 --> 00:09:16.200 Yeah. 164 00:09:16.240 --> 00:09:18.480 And so you know, getting back to your history, so 165 00:09:18.919 --> 00:09:22.000 you have been involved with cats for twenty years now, 166 00:09:22.679 --> 00:09:24.840 Can you take me back to when you first kind 167 00:09:24.879 --> 00:09:27.200 of realize that you are maybe more of a cat person, 168 00:09:27.919 --> 00:09:29.879 or when you really started connecting with them. 169 00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:33.039 Yeah. I mean I've always been obsessed with cats since 170 00:09:33.039 --> 00:09:34.600 I was a little kid. I think, you know, my 171 00:09:34.679 --> 00:09:37.039 mom probably got sick of me begging for a cat, 172 00:09:37.080 --> 00:09:39.960 and finally, when I was a teenager, she relented, but 173 00:09:40.440 --> 00:09:43.639 even though she was allergic. I don't know, I've always 174 00:09:43.639 --> 00:09:45.759 just thought cats were amazing, and I loved all animals. 175 00:09:46.600 --> 00:09:50.360 But I definitely, like, I feel awkward with dogs, which 176 00:09:50.399 --> 00:09:51.799 is funny because a lot of people say they find 177 00:09:51.840 --> 00:09:54.200 cats hard to read, but I actually find the opposite. Histry, 178 00:09:54.279 --> 00:09:57.919 like I can't understand dogs, like they don't purr. Yeah, 179 00:09:59.279 --> 00:10:01.399 I don't know, I feel awkward. I feel they're awkward, 180 00:10:01.919 --> 00:10:04.759 whereas with cats, I just have always felt in tune 181 00:10:04.759 --> 00:10:07.000 with them and like they're kind of easy to read 182 00:10:07.039 --> 00:10:10.279 for me. But you know, I definitely was not that 183 00:10:10.440 --> 00:10:11.799 kid who was like, oh, I'm going to be a 184 00:10:11.799 --> 00:10:14.919 scientist when I grow up. I really didn't have like 185 00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:18.360 a plan or a clue. I dropped out of college 186 00:10:18.480 --> 00:10:20.720 when I was twenty one because I really didn't know 187 00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:22.360 what I wanted to do. Well, what I wanted to 188 00:10:22.360 --> 00:10:26.399 do was move to California and be in a rock band. Oh, 189 00:10:26.440 --> 00:10:29.159 which is exactly what I did. I grew up in Maine, 190 00:10:29.200 --> 00:10:31.840 and I basically was like, I'm moving to California, and 191 00:10:31.840 --> 00:10:34.879 so I moved to San Francisco and did not have 192 00:10:35.240 --> 00:10:37.840 any kind of plan that I was going to work 193 00:10:37.879 --> 00:10:39.320 with cats, even though I loved cats. 194 00:10:40.000 --> 00:10:40.159 You know. 195 00:10:40.200 --> 00:10:43.879 I worked at a health food cooperative, played in bands. 196 00:10:44.039 --> 00:10:46.639 I volunteered at a punk rock record store. So my 197 00:10:46.679 --> 00:10:49.120 life was very much revolving around like kind of this 198 00:10:49.159 --> 00:10:54.120 punk scene and collective work environments. And it wasn't until 199 00:10:54.679 --> 00:10:56.519 that cat that I had begged my mom to get 200 00:10:56.559 --> 00:11:00.320 me when I was a teenager. He died in two 201 00:11:00.360 --> 00:11:05.919 thousand and I decided to start volunteering at the local 202 00:11:05.960 --> 00:11:09.159 animal shelter, which was the San Francisco SPCA, just because 203 00:11:09.159 --> 00:11:10.759 I wanted more cat time. I had not a cat 204 00:11:10.759 --> 00:11:13.200 at home, but I knew that I just wanted to. 205 00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:15.600 I mean maybe I was on the market for a 206 00:11:15.639 --> 00:11:19.000 new cat. Yeah, you know, which is if you work 207 00:11:19.000 --> 00:11:20.840 in a shelter, you know, you see them all, you 208 00:11:20.879 --> 00:11:24.360 get first DIBs. But oh nice, but you know it 209 00:11:24.480 --> 00:11:27.200 was also just kind of missing that connection I had, 210 00:11:27.279 --> 00:11:28.960 And it was actually a friend of mine, Casey, who 211 00:11:29.080 --> 00:11:30.799 was like, oh, you should come volunteer at the SPCA, 212 00:11:30.840 --> 00:11:35.159 because he was volunteering there, And basically that just changed 213 00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:38.480 everything for me and I realized that first of all, like, oh, 214 00:11:38.519 --> 00:11:41.200 you can like do this for a job, like you 215 00:11:41.240 --> 00:11:48.919 can work with animals like cool. And at the time, 216 00:11:49.000 --> 00:11:52.639 the SPCA had a pretty involved behavior program, and so 217 00:11:52.720 --> 00:11:56.559 they had a whole program for cats that was first 218 00:11:56.559 --> 00:11:59.080 of all rehabilitating and working with cats in the shelter 219 00:11:59.159 --> 00:12:00.960 that were having difficult these coping. 220 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:05.080 So Michael worked at the SBCA helping these seemingly imperfect 221 00:12:05.159 --> 00:12:08.519 giddies who were having a hard time getting accepted into 222 00:12:08.600 --> 00:12:11.720 loving homes. But speaking of that, let's take a quick 223 00:12:11.759 --> 00:12:16.519 detour down an old cobblestone alley into the past. So 224 00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:20.559 when did cats go from African wildcats and like European 225 00:12:21.080 --> 00:12:24.279 forest animals to the little buddies who watch us peace 226 00:12:24.279 --> 00:12:26.799 sometimes in who we love more than our blood relatives. 227 00:12:27.200 --> 00:12:29.320 Let's discuss domesticity. 228 00:12:29.679 --> 00:12:33.039 Okay, so the domestication story for cats is a little 229 00:12:33.039 --> 00:12:36.360 bit complicated, and depending on which person you talk to, 230 00:12:36.919 --> 00:12:40.240 the question is are they truly fully domesticated, because they 231 00:12:40.279 --> 00:12:43.080 don't really meet some of the criteria for domestication, and 232 00:12:43.080 --> 00:12:45.600 their path to domestication was not a traditional one where 233 00:12:45.639 --> 00:12:48.919 we didn't take them and modify them for human use. 234 00:12:50.159 --> 00:12:53.559 It was instead what they call commensalism, where the cats 235 00:12:53.600 --> 00:12:56.759 benefited from human settlements. So that is really when cats 236 00:12:56.759 --> 00:13:01.720 started becoming domesticated, when humans became you know, agrarians and 237 00:13:01.879 --> 00:13:06.440 started settling and had large stores of grains which attracted rodents. 238 00:13:07.480 --> 00:13:09.120 So I think a lot of people think, oh, the 239 00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:11.919 cats are doing humans a favor by catching rodents, but 240 00:13:12.039 --> 00:13:14.919 it turns out that humans actually had other animals that 241 00:13:14.960 --> 00:13:18.320 did that just fine, like terriers and some of the 242 00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:21.799 weasel type animals that are good ratters, So we didn't 243 00:13:21.799 --> 00:13:24.759 necessarily need cats to do that for us. So cats 244 00:13:24.759 --> 00:13:27.960 actually benefited more from the relationship than humans did. And 245 00:13:28.039 --> 00:13:30.360 so what we believe is that cats that were taking 246 00:13:30.399 --> 00:13:35.000 advantage of this human resource, which was basically indirectly leading 247 00:13:35.039 --> 00:13:38.480 to lots of mice and rats gathering around humans. So 248 00:13:38.519 --> 00:13:40.879 cats who could take advantage of that and were friendlier 249 00:13:41.000 --> 00:13:43.879 were more likely to be maybe tossed to scrap meat 250 00:13:43.879 --> 00:13:47.720 from a human or given shelter by humans. So probably 251 00:13:47.799 --> 00:13:50.840 over time we helped cats become more tolerant of people 252 00:13:51.399 --> 00:13:56.399 and of each other. And so you know the question 253 00:13:56.440 --> 00:13:58.960 of whether or not cats are truly domestic, there's lots 254 00:13:59.000 --> 00:14:01.600 of reasons to think that they're not as domesticated. And 255 00:14:01.639 --> 00:14:03.519 you know what is that they can survive pretty well 256 00:14:03.559 --> 00:14:08.759 without human support. Last estimate I read was ninety seven 257 00:14:08.799 --> 00:14:12.240 percent of cats choose their own mates, so domestication is 258 00:14:12.279 --> 00:14:15.600 usually under much more controlled breeding. So in that respect, 259 00:14:16.279 --> 00:14:19.799 it's more like they've become more tolerant of people and 260 00:14:19.879 --> 00:14:24.279 other cats over time, and we've become more interested in 261 00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:28.759 them over time, and it's only in the last say 262 00:14:29.480 --> 00:14:33.279 fifty years that we've kind of imposed this new lifestyle 263 00:14:33.320 --> 00:14:36.159 on them where we're keeping them indoors exclusively, and so 264 00:14:36.240 --> 00:14:39.919 it's a pretty rapid change, given that their domestication is 265 00:14:40.039 --> 00:14:43.279 estimated over the past like eight ten thousand years is 266 00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:45.399 kind of the range where you start seeing evidence of 267 00:14:45.440 --> 00:14:48.519 them being kept as pets and you see fossils that 268 00:14:48.600 --> 00:14:50.639 you know where they were buried with people in the 269 00:14:50.679 --> 00:14:53.240 middle least, but really only last fifty years that we've 270 00:14:53.600 --> 00:14:56.320 kind of asked them to stay inside all the time. 271 00:14:56.519 --> 00:14:58.720 Oh, because they were really more like barn cats and 272 00:14:58.759 --> 00:15:02.399 outdoor cats before that. So the last fifty years that's nothing. 273 00:15:02.440 --> 00:15:05.039 Yeah, And so that was really sped up by the 274 00:15:05.039 --> 00:15:06.919 invention of kitty litter PI. 275 00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:09.679 I am had low since I invented cat box filler 276 00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:12.639 in nineteen forty seven, I've been improving it ever since. 277 00:15:12.879 --> 00:15:15.799 You might wonder what motivates a man like me. Simple, 278 00:15:16.279 --> 00:15:17.559 I love cats. 279 00:15:17.759 --> 00:15:24.240 And then recommendations by various like veterinary and humanitarian groups 280 00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:27.159 that cats should be kept exclusively indoors to prevent injury, 281 00:15:27.320 --> 00:15:32.279 prevent you know, predation of other animals. So yeah, I 282 00:15:32.279 --> 00:15:35.360 think part of why we see the struggle a lot 283 00:15:35.399 --> 00:15:37.759 of the times is that we've asked them to change 284 00:15:37.759 --> 00:15:40.759 their lifestyle very rapidly, and yet the person doesn't even 285 00:15:40.799 --> 00:15:42.519 want to give them a litter box or cat tree. 286 00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:46.120 Yeah, so you have to meet cats halfway more than 287 00:15:46.159 --> 00:15:46.759 you would a dog. 288 00:15:47.080 --> 00:15:47.320 Yeah. 289 00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:49.480 I mean, you know, I think there's been a lot 290 00:15:49.519 --> 00:15:54.120 more selection with dogs for things even that might seem 291 00:15:55.039 --> 00:15:59.519 really minute, but like facial expressions, right, So like dogs 292 00:15:59.559 --> 00:16:03.279 have a lot more facial muscles, and we probably selected 293 00:16:03.320 --> 00:16:05.879 them for that because we like the reflection back of 294 00:16:05.919 --> 00:16:07.879 human expressions like smiling. 295 00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:09.960 And their eyes having whites so that we can see 296 00:16:09.960 --> 00:16:12.159 where they're looking. Like, that's so crazy. 297 00:16:12.279 --> 00:16:13.799 Yeah, So what's. 298 00:16:13.559 --> 00:16:16.600 More important to cats their owner or their living space? 299 00:16:16.600 --> 00:16:18.080 I mean, if a cat had to get a full 300 00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:21.200 belly tattoo of one of those things, surely it would 301 00:16:21.240 --> 00:16:23.639 be a portrait of their owner with the inked inscription 302 00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:26.840 snug life, not a tattoo of like the couch. Right, 303 00:16:27.039 --> 00:16:27.519 So we know. 304 00:16:27.480 --> 00:16:31.720 That cats are really territorial, and so what's more important 305 00:16:31.720 --> 00:16:34.240 to them than anything is the familiarity of where they live. 306 00:16:34.879 --> 00:16:37.519 So even before they'll form attachments with people, they need 307 00:16:37.559 --> 00:16:40.039 to feel comfortable in their space. And it's almost like 308 00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:42.639 we're part of the territory, especially because most cats live 309 00:16:42.679 --> 00:16:45.000 inside and so this is where they live, right, and 310 00:16:45.080 --> 00:16:48.360 so we're just part of their space. So it's not 311 00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:50.720 like we're separate from it. We're part of it. And 312 00:16:50.759 --> 00:16:53.639 that's what their primary attachment is as to their territory. 313 00:16:54.039 --> 00:16:54.600 Smiles. 314 00:16:55.320 --> 00:16:57.559 So if you rip a cat out of their home 315 00:16:58.240 --> 00:17:01.600 and away from their people into a strange environment with 316 00:17:01.759 --> 00:17:04.319 a bunch of other animals that are freaking out, they're 317 00:17:04.359 --> 00:17:06.240 going to be really stressed. And so some cats just 318 00:17:06.319 --> 00:17:08.240 had a lot of difficulty coping with that change, so 319 00:17:08.279 --> 00:17:11.400 they'd be very fearful, they'd be hiding, some of them 320 00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:13.599 would maybe be biting and scratching if you tried to 321 00:17:13.640 --> 00:17:16.640 pet them, which is not great for getting adopted, right 322 00:17:16.799 --> 00:17:19.119 Like people who come into a shelter, they want to 323 00:17:19.160 --> 00:17:20.839 be hands on. They want the cat that's going to 324 00:17:20.839 --> 00:17:23.640 come right up to them and you know, interact and 325 00:17:23.839 --> 00:17:26.880 you know, per and be friendly, not draw blood. Not 326 00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:31.519 draw blood. Drawing blood is bad for getting adopted. Although 327 00:17:31.559 --> 00:17:34.480 those cats eventually will get adopted, but usually just because 328 00:17:34.480 --> 00:17:38.000 they start adapting to the environment. So part of our 329 00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:40.000 goal was to just help them adjust. 330 00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:42.640 So Michael really had a passion to make sure all 331 00:17:42.640 --> 00:17:45.680 these little kiddies found homes, and she found that a 332 00:17:45.799 --> 00:17:49.240 clutch part of the strategy was just educating the public 333 00:17:49.400 --> 00:17:51.839 to be fluent in kitty She loved it. 334 00:17:52.079 --> 00:17:54.519 So we had classes for the public on cat behavior 335 00:17:54.720 --> 00:17:59.200 and how to keep your cat happy, and then we 336 00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:02.119 also had a behavior hotline where people who were having 337 00:18:02.119 --> 00:18:04.359 problems with their cats could call and we would get 338 00:18:04.359 --> 00:18:05.440 over one hundred calls a month. 339 00:18:05.960 --> 00:18:06.160 Cool. 340 00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:07.920 Yeah, I mean there's a lot of people out there 341 00:18:07.920 --> 00:18:10.440 with cat questions and cat problems, or they just don't 342 00:18:10.519 --> 00:18:13.559 understand their cat's natural behavior and why their cat's doing 343 00:18:13.599 --> 00:18:14.960 some of the things they would do. But one of 344 00:18:14.960 --> 00:18:17.960 the things I learned during that experience was like, I 345 00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:20.720 really wanted to see the home environment, like what's going 346 00:18:20.799 --> 00:18:22.519 on in the home, or be able to talk to 347 00:18:22.519 --> 00:18:25.359 everyone in the household at the same time. And so 348 00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:28.160 in two thousand and eight, one of my coworkers and 349 00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:31.519 I left the shelter and started our business, Feline Minds, 350 00:18:31.720 --> 00:18:35.119 and so we offered consultations, typically in home, although I 351 00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:38.200 do a lot of Skype and phone consultations nowadays as well, 352 00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:42.319 where we go to people's houses, you know, check out 353 00:18:42.319 --> 00:18:45.440 the scene, meet their cat if the cat's open to it, 354 00:18:45.640 --> 00:18:49.079 and then give them a modification plan to help them 355 00:18:49.119 --> 00:18:50.640 solve a behavior problem. 356 00:18:50.759 --> 00:18:53.960 So ah, so you realize from being the shelter that 357 00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:55.440 you could make a job out of this. 358 00:18:56.720 --> 00:19:00.319 Yeah, it's it's a semi living but yeah, I mean 359 00:19:00.359 --> 00:19:02.160 I remember the day I came home from the shelter 360 00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:04.720 and said to my boyfriend, like, I want to be 361 00:19:04.720 --> 00:19:08.279 a cat behaviorist, and he was like, cool, let's you know, 362 00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:12.240 make it happen. So yeah, I really just sunk myself 363 00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:14.720 into the field of behavior. And it was around the 364 00:19:14.720 --> 00:19:16.680 same time that I started the business that I realized 365 00:19:16.680 --> 00:19:18.519 that I wanted to go back to school. So, you know, 366 00:19:18.519 --> 00:19:21.039 I dropped out of college when I was twenty one, 367 00:19:21.359 --> 00:19:24.200 and here I was and realizing that even though I'd 368 00:19:24.240 --> 00:19:27.480 learned a lot about cats and behavior working at the shelter, 369 00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:30.119 that there was also this other world of kind of 370 00:19:30.359 --> 00:19:35.519 formal behavior theory and perhaps to do some of the 371 00:19:35.519 --> 00:19:38.960 things I wanted, that I needed that college degree that 372 00:19:39.039 --> 00:19:41.680 i'd blown off when I was twenty to play rock music. 373 00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:43.519 And so now I was like, Okay, if I'm going 374 00:19:43.599 --> 00:19:47.319 to really like be serious about being an adult and 375 00:19:47.359 --> 00:19:49.319 having a real job, like, maybe I should go back 376 00:19:49.359 --> 00:19:53.359 to school. And so I just went to finish my 377 00:19:53.480 --> 00:19:57.319 bachelor's degree in psychology with an emphasis on animal behavior, 378 00:19:58.319 --> 00:20:02.200 and then was like, wow, being in school is awesome, 379 00:20:02.480 --> 00:20:05.720 Like I want to do this forever, and so decide 380 00:20:05.720 --> 00:20:08.319 I wanted to get a PhD, which takes forever, so 381 00:20:08.880 --> 00:20:11.880 I able to stay in school forever, and throughout grad 382 00:20:11.960 --> 00:20:15.200 school did the consulting business, which is still going so, 383 00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:19.960 you know, still helping people with their myriad behavior problems 384 00:20:19.960 --> 00:20:20.319 with their. 385 00:20:20.279 --> 00:20:24.880 Cats, and now doing postdoc. You mentioned that you work 386 00:20:24.920 --> 00:20:26.279 with neonatal kittens. 387 00:20:26.680 --> 00:20:32.200 Yeah, so you are. Yeah, it's gotten even cuter. So yeah, 388 00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:34.400 when I was doing my PhD working with squirrels, I 389 00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:36.680 didn't know if it could get cuter. But then now 390 00:20:36.680 --> 00:20:39.599 I'm doing a postdoc with kittens, so it did get cuter. 391 00:20:40.720 --> 00:20:43.319 And so what is your job typically involved. 392 00:20:43.519 --> 00:20:46.200 It really varies. So in the summer, when we were 393 00:20:46.279 --> 00:20:50.359 collecting data with the neonatal kittens, I might literally get 394 00:20:50.359 --> 00:20:52.359 a call from a rescue group that was like, we 395 00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:55.440 just got some orphaned kittens in we need a foster 396 00:20:55.519 --> 00:20:58.079 home now. So then it's like coordinating with one of 397 00:20:58.079 --> 00:21:01.039 the other rescue groups to find a coster parent for 398 00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:05.599 these kittens and coordinating a lot of things. We were 399 00:21:05.599 --> 00:21:07.799 taking blood samples on these kittens because one of the 400 00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:10.400 things we're interested in is whether or not being separated 401 00:21:10.440 --> 00:21:13.880