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Speaker 1: Welcome to Popcorn Psychology, the podcast where we watch blockbuster

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movies and psychoanalyze them.

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Speaker 2: My name is Brittany.

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Speaker 1: Brownfield and I'm a child therapist and I'm joined by.

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Speaker 3: Ben Stover, individual therapist, Hannah Espinozo, marriage and family therapists.

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Speaker 1: We're all licensed clinical professional counselors also known as therapists,

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who practice out of Chicago. Even though we are licensed

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mental health professionals, this podcast is purely for entertainment purposes

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and to fulfill our love of dissecting pop culture and

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all forms.

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Speaker 4: Please remember that, even though we are all licensed therapists,

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we aren't your therapist.

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Speaker 3: If you are struggling with mental health symptoms, please find

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a local mental health provider.

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Speaker 1: Hello everybody, we are finally getting onto our luck dragons

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and going into the clouds to talk about the never

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ending Storyay big surprise for anyone who's watched this movie.

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We're gonna be talking about grief. Specifically, We're gonna be

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touching upon how it presents his depression, how it can

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result in identity problems both within an individual but also

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within a family structure. We're also gonna be touching upon

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the stages of grief and also experiential and expressive and

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expressive therapies, therapies think even, and as always we're talking

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about treatment and final thoughts. So The Never Ending Story

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is about a ten year old named Bastion who has

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recently lost his mother. The movie is vague about how

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when I looked it up on the internet it said

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car accident, because I was curious if it was a

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sudden or not sudden thing. And so we're watching this

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little boy go through this post mom's death experience where

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he basically feels really lonely, really ignored, and he finds

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a book in a bookstore after he's been bullied, and

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that is the you know, the rest of the movie

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is this kid reading a book and then slowly realizing

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that he is a part of this book.

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Speaker 2: The never Ending Story.

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Speaker 3: The first thing that we wanted to talk about was depression,

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the experience of just not feeling just not really feeling

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like yourself and feeling more sad and feeling kind of

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like they're the things that you found joy in before

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you don't find joy in anymore. That's kind of what

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I feel like people experience when I talk to them

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about grief in terms of the depression.

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Speaker 4: Symptoms, loss of hope.

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Speaker 2: Loss of loss of hope is definitely important. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I think anytime I think of grief, I think of

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Teddy Roosevelt's journal as probably the best simple expression I've

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ever seen. You've guys seen that? Whoa you guys no

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know this?

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Speaker 2: I don't know what are you talking about?

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Speaker 1: His actual journal or a movie that's called Teddy Roosevelt's Journal.

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Speaker 4: That's a fair question. That's a very fair question. I

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appreciate that. We're welcome new band name I call it, Yeah,

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but after I explain, it's gonna get sucked up. So

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Teddy Roosevelt lost his mother and his wife, oh damn,

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on the same day, dark dark, in the same hospital.

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He had to go upstairs for the death of each.

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His wife died from I think some complication of a childbirth,

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and his mom died of TB if I'm remembering. But

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in his journal, there's just like a big X, this

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is the light has gone out of my life.

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Speaker 2: Damn.

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Speaker 4: And that's it. Damn Right.

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Speaker 1: Yes, Well, I think in this situation, we are seeing

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a little boy who seems to have lost like his mom,

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seems like she was the joy in his life, not

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just as his mom obviously, but also as we see

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with the family dynamic that gets set up in the

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very beginning of the movie, his dad is just given nothing, which,

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to be fair, his dad's going through his own grief,

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for sure, and that is just a blip in the movie.

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But it does strike me that the mom might have

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been the person that was bringing a lot of joy

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and caregiving into this kid's life, and now he's being

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taken care of by this dad who was never supposed

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to be the primary caregiver for this kid.

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Speaker 4: Which seems accurate for the time period. Yeah, this dad

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is clearly lost. He's not used to being the primary caregiver.

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He's used to making his stuff and being in a routine,

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not caring for a child. I imagine he would be

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doing camping trips on the weekends and he's used to

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that kind of stuff. But come work with tools with

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me in the shed, but not primary caregiving. The dad

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seems clearly kind of vapid and lost.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was telling Hannah it kind of reminds me

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of if Ted Wheeler the dad and Stranger things.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I had to become the primary caregiver.

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Speaker 1: You're right, it's very of the time where there's more

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of an understanding that the mom is the primary caregiver

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and the dad is secondary.

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Speaker 4: Which is very different to now where it's pretty balanced.

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And it's weird to watch and watching that scene where

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the dad and the kid are talking about, well, it's

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time to kind of buck up and keep moving on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so we watched this sad kid in this sad

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house with a probably sad leftover parent who is dealing

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maybe with their sadness and trying to be a parent

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the same way that maybe he runs his business, like

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trying to parent the way that he would supervise a colleague.

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Speaker 2: I mean, he ends that.

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Speaker 1: He's so flat the whole time he hands the conversation

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with this was a good talk.

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Speaker 2: We should do this more. I'm like, who the fuck

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are you talking to?

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Speaker 1: You're talking to your super sad ten year old kid

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and giving no emotionality there.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, your kid who's having dreams about his mom who died. Yeah,

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and he wants to talk about it and process that,

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and Dad's just like.

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Speaker 1: Well.

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Speaker 4: We talked about that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: It gives you the ick. It's so different. It's exactly

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the way we would have been raised, or there would

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have been someone in our life just like that would

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have been raised like that.

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Speaker 1: It's definitely the style of the older generation. Very pick

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yourself up, dust yourself off, keep it moving, is what

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the dad's basically telling this kid.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's you know, your.

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Speaker 1: Mom can't be used as an excuse anymore to not

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consider in school, which is wild thing to say, and

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you know, reiterating you can have to have your feet

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on the ground. There's like no room for anything that's

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not pragmatic, and you.

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Speaker 4: Have to get back into doing things. I'm hearing you didn't.

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I'm disappointed. I'm disappointed you didn't even try out for

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the swim team.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the dad's not taking into context the grief and

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the sadness at all, Like he's like, why did try

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for the swim team? It's like, why do you think

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he didn't try out for the swim team?

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Speaker 2: It even makes me.

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Speaker 1: Wonder are there aspects of having to trial for the

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swim team that maybe his mom would have handled, like scheduling,

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permission slip.

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Speaker 2: You know, Like he's making it seem.

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Speaker 1: Like this kid is is going to be now like

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the project manager of his life, when that was probably

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a role that mom played keeping that stuff together.

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Speaker 4: Should have been the one probably going to swim lessons,

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should have been the one encouraging him, pep talking him,

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talking it up. And also, like we started right at

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the top, depression steals your joy and even doing things

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doesn't feel good anymore. That's why sometimes you need antidepressants

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because they start boosting your serotonin levels. Again, the thing

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that works about those is because your brain is no

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longer producing enough serotonin, which is your feel good chemical.

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So you're not getting a brain cookie for doing something,

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and it takes a lot more effort to get that

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brain cookie, if at all. And by basic behaviorism, if

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something doesn't feel good, do we keep doing it? Nope,

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So it extinguishes behaviors really quick because it doesn't feel

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good and then compounds with wow, even things that I

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like make me feel nothing or bad.

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Speaker 3: And I feel like I've Also whenever with people who

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are experiencing grief or and they're in the depression aspect

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of it, I also talk with them about coping skills

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because a lot of times the coping skills don't work

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anymore either, like they're because they don't have the same

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they're not able to focus on it. In the same

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way that they were to before, and they have to

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pull themselves out of it first in order to use

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the coping skills. So a lot of times I really

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really talk about coping skills and shifting them or changing them,

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trying to be flexible about what things are.

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Speaker 2: Helpful because it feels so different than it used.

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Speaker 4: To everything.

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Speaker 2: Cute.

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Speaker 4: Your old toolkit might not work or it might not

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work as well, and not letting that stack up on

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you is huge.

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Speaker 1: And I could also see where Dad is maybe doing

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that thing that definitely people did I assume in that

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time period, which is we just got to start getting

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back into the things that used to like, and that'll

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get you out of this funk, you know, like get

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into swim again, get it, like start getting That's basically

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what he says in the beginning, like you just have to.

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Speaker 2: Get back on track.

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Speaker 1: And this idea that if you go and if you

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go through the motions of regular life, it'll snap you

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out of it, which is not realistic because what you

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guys are saying too, like bereavement related depression is so

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big it can pack such like a punch because it's

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based in something truly real that's happened to you, that's

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changing your life forever. It's more trauma based almost depression.

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Something horrible has happened, and you can't just like do

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the same things you might be able to do with depression,

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where you can kind of like do thought challenging and

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things like that to kind of like come out of it,

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like there's something truly real that's happened, that's changed the

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circumstances of your life potentially. And with a kid like this,

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your whole your life is exploded, falling apart.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and Breadman is not a time period where you

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should be trying to do a whole lot of treatment

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for people. People need space, people need time. Supportive methods

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only really are appropriate there. If they want to come

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in and talk, it should probably don't. But when they

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do come in and talk, you're not trying to reframe

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their thoughts, You're not trying to correct their things. You're

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just trying to be there and listen and witness their

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pain and let them express. That's it.

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Speaker 1: And bless this kid because he's trying to do that

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with his dad. He sure is, and his dad is

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not interested, which, like I said, could be because the

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dad might be in his own grief. He's also going

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through a crazy experience where now he has to take

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care of a kid in a way he's never had

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to before. But yeah, like it just it is heartbreaking

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in the beginning of this movie because you just feel

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this kid's insane loneliness on top of losing his mom,

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which is going to be lonely anyway. Maybe he's late

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to school because he's fucking depressed, and maybe because he

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used to make his own lunches now and stuff like

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just this, like as we're going to talk about later

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with like the stages of grief, Like is this denial

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like this almost like stubborn denial that Dad is in

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that they kind of allude to in the scene that

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they set in the beginning of what's going on with

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this kid and not being curious about the reasons why

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this kid might be acting differently than he used to,

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because that's also what Dad's not tracking. Why is he

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late to school? Why is he joining the swim team?

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Instead of being curious, he's being accusational.

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Speaker 4: Yeah he is, because he probably is just as lost.

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Dad doesn't begin to know. No set of parents ever

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knows fully what the other one does, and the roles

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that they fell until they're not feeling it anymore, and

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it's heartbreaking to lose that and no one can replace

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the mom. So this whole family unit is is completely devastated.

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And you're right, no one's looking out for this kid.

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They make it quite clear he's kind of invisible except

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to the bullies because it's the eighties.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they are ruthless.

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Speaker 1: And it made me think, like the Bullies and Stranger Things,

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if they were modeled after these bullies, Like even in

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the way they dressed felt very similar to the bullies

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in the first season of Stranger Things.

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Speaker 4: I'm sure there was a reference. And it's also just

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kind of how they were eighties and nineties. There's enough

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references to them everywhere.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was a time of bullies. Oh it was

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in movies at that time. I mean it was a

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time of bullies in the real world. In the real

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world also going to that too, there's no one thinking

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about like, is this kid late to school every day

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because he's getting bullied fucking every day he's going to school,

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And is he's not late to school maybe because he's

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not leaving for school on time. And I'm having to

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like dodge and weave and maybe get stuck in trash cans.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I feel like it's also but again, you know,

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this was the eighties, so it makes sense. But even

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like the school coming at him for that and not

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asking dad like, hey, it's really weird he's been late

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to school.

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Speaker 2: Something else might be going on.

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Speaker 3: Have you talked to him, like even like just just

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as like just noticing that this kid's.

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Speaker 2: Behavior pattern is.

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Speaker 3: Changing after his mom died, Like that fucking makes sense.

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Speaker 4: Of course it does. And also so to just moving slowly.

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One of the symptoms of depression is moving so slay.

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Speaker 2: That's such a good point.

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Speaker 4: Right m HM. Formally known as psychomotor retardation or psychomotor agitation,

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because sometimes people can't sit still and they can't deal

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with anything and they don't stop moving, or other times

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they're so glum and grim and down that they just

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look like they're walking through molasses and mud, just trudging.

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And now I hear Chaucer saying trudging to trudge from

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a Night's Tale.

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Speaker 2: That sounds right.

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Speaker 3: I was thinking about how I've had different people describe

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the way that depression feels as walking on the bottom

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of the ocean. Every step and not only are you

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under the water, but every.

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Speaker 2: Step is.

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Speaker 3: It's such a barrier to being able to complete it

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in any kind of quick manner of any kind. Yeah,

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and then with that too, we see the kid be

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late to school fashion because of the bully thing and

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the bookstore thing, and we see what then can happen

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with this situation where as soon as he realizes he's

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really late to school, he just gives up and goes

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hides in the attic all day by himself, which is

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that's what ends up happening.

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Speaker 2: Is kids are always picking up.

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Speaker 1: On what the adults are telling them is important and

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then getting stuck on that in his mind. And it

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really bummed me the fuck out, going back to like

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the invisibility of him in which his dad's like fleeing

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out the door when he says that, and he goes,

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but yesterday I was it and reply to lady school

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like this kid just wants to be recognized. And how

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a kid like that in this situation when we also

296
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think about what depression feeling like hopeless and feeling helpless

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and feeling bad about yourself potentially that also then you

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have this dad that's only pointing out the ways that

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this kid is not doing well, but not in like

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a curious empathetic way, but more in like a picking

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at him kind of way, and not noticing when the

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kid is doing things Okay, like you made school yesterday,

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Let's try you know, let's try that again.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: How is that kid not going to internalize that, especially

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when they're in such a vulnerable place of like, maybe

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I'm just suck and like and he doesn't have a

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mom anymore to like break through.

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Speaker 4: That or any trusted adult. He's just getting rub dirt

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on it. Talk and do better, which he can't. He

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can't depending on how long ago that the death of

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00:17:26,519 --> 00:17:29,599
his mom was, we don't know what period he's in.

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Bereavement last thirty days, right, bereamant ends at thirty days.

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That's the period where you're wrecked. Everyone is destroyed, distraught, crying,

315
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shut down because you're adjusting to your world ending as

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you knew it. After that phase, I feel like is

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where we're picking up this story. It seems like we're

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somewhere two months out three months, that's my guess. Yeah,

319
00:17:57,799 --> 00:17:59,359
I don't know if that's a base on anybody. He's

320
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not to your point and crying and wrecked. It seems

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00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:07,759
like the expectation is that, buddy, we're we got to

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start moving on now, which I don't think even that

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era of dad figure would have said yeah, unless it's

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bland before time.

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Speaker 2: Oh geez, do.

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Speaker 4: You guys watch that as adults?

327
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Speaker 3: Yes?

328
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Speaker 2: I watched it not so long ago.

329
00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:30,680
Speaker 4: Actually as soon as his mom dies. That one like

330
00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:35,799
Stegosaurus with small spikes, was like, h, kid, life's tough.

331
00:18:36,799 --> 00:18:42,279
I just watched his mom get eaten. Yeh sucks sometimes

332
00:18:42,319 --> 00:18:44,960
to be in be in the world. Good luck.

333
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Speaker 2: What is one?

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Speaker 1: Also just how sometimes just adults can have such a

335
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lack of patience with kids and their feelings and wanting.

336
00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:03,559
There is a lot of situations I've been in as

337
00:19:03,599 --> 00:19:07,440
a family therapist where you can tell the parent, for

338
00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:10,119
whatever reason, could be a very inner, simple reason, just

339
00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:13,119
wants the kid to kind of get over it, and

340
00:19:14,079 --> 00:19:16,480
for maybe because they're got their own suff gone. Because

341
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like I see with this dad him wanting to just

342
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be over it, so he needs the kid to be

343
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over it.

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Speaker 2: And how deeply.

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Speaker 1: Unfair that is, especially like a kid that's this. I

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mean I tell people this all the time, Like when

347
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you're a kid, your parents are your gods.

348
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Speaker 2: They are gods to you, for better or for worse.

349
00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:39,680
And so I've been watching The Crow, have we? Oh

350
00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:40,839
that is from that movie?

351
00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:44,160
Speaker 1: Yes it is, and it is true, right, and so

352
00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:46,319
like you have to treat it with that level of

353
00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,920
gravitas when something that involves a kid and their parents occurs.

354
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Speaker 4: Mother is the name for God on the lips and

355
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hearts of all children.

356
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Speaker 2: You can't help yourself, No I can't.

357
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Speaker 1: And yeah, like there aren't any adults looking out for him,

358
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which is why it's so refreshing and interesting in the

359
00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,440
movie when he does run into the bookstore and they

360
00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:15,039
introduced the bookseller as kind of this like crimogeny ominous figure.

361
00:20:16,039 --> 00:20:17,839
But he does do something that I wrote down on

362
00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:21,200
my notes was as Bashian's kind of like running his

363
00:20:21,279 --> 00:20:24,039
mouth like talking to mole a minute about stuff. He

364
00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:27,440
does something that is really good and very therapist y,

365
00:20:28,039 --> 00:20:31,440
which is he grabs onto the important part and he says,

366
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who are you running away from? And I was like,

367
00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:38,519
that guy knows how to talk to kids because he

368
00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,880
was able to disperse away from all the gobbledegook and

369
00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:45,839
like find the thing, the right question, and be curious

370
00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:49,400
about this kid. Instead of getting caught up in judging

371
00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:52,279
him or like just like the way that adults can

372
00:20:52,319 --> 00:20:55,079
really just shoot kids down and dismiss them.

373
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Speaker 4: It's such a different take on it, but I do agree.

374
00:21:01,319 --> 00:21:04,799
But what I agree fundamentally I hated his affect.

375
00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:07,559
Speaker 1: Oh for sure, he definitely, But I feel like that's

376
00:21:07,559 --> 00:21:09,200
the movie trying to do a bait and switch situation,

377
00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:11,799
like they're trying to trick us into thinking this guy sucks,

378
00:21:11,799 --> 00:21:14,359
and he does have a gruff vibe. But I will

379
00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:16,079
say when he asked that question, I think you see

380
00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:19,839
kind of his veneer drop a little bit. And then

381
00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:23,640
obviously when he has the like knowing look at the

382
00:21:23,799 --> 00:21:27,240
end where he is like a fairy godmother figure in

383
00:21:27,319 --> 00:21:27,839
the story.

384
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:29,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean he's definitely. He's the wise old man,

385
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:33,599
the fairy godmother, et cetera, the guardian angel. He's all

386
00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,160
those things, and he was and he was doing it.

387
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:42,119
But it's such the eighties boomer even greatest, it's the

388
00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:42,839
greatest generation.

389
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:44,960
Speaker 1: Way, Well, it's like, does everyone have to be shitty

390
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:46,240
to this kid? For fuck's sake?

391
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:46,680
Speaker 4: Right?

392
00:21:46,839 --> 00:21:49,319
Speaker 1: Can someone please throw a fucking smile on their face

393
00:21:49,759 --> 00:21:51,240
and some caring looking eyes.

394
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:56,799
Speaker 4: Right, instead of the grumpy old crimudge what are you

395
00:21:56,839 --> 00:21:59,319
doing here? And the kid clearly warmed up to him,

396
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:01,599
was trying to prove himself like no, I read there's

397
00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:05,200
all the books I reading. It was obvious he impressed

398
00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:08,720
the bookseller and that he saw himself and the kid,

399
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:13,160
but he the lack of warming up bothered me, Oh

400
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:13,599
for sure.

401
00:22:13,759 --> 00:22:15,240
Speaker 2: Oh that does bother me as well.

402
00:22:16,759 --> 00:22:18,880
Speaker 4: He kept the kid engaged so like, I get it,

403
00:22:19,079 --> 00:22:23,079
and it again the generational differences the way I'm looking

404
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:27,759
at that now, then that would have been a that's

405
00:22:27,799 --> 00:22:28,920
the way grandpa acted.

406
00:22:29,319 --> 00:22:30,920
Speaker 1: Well, I think now it would probably be someone with

407
00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:33,240
a more of like a Mishney approach, Like if they

408
00:22:33,279 --> 00:22:35,880
made this movie now, it'd be someone who's like but

409
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:37,480
I think they still did a little game with him

410
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:40,640
of like ooh that book you can't handle reverse psychology

411
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:42,799
to get him to take it. But yeah, I think

412
00:22:42,839 --> 00:22:46,480
if they made this movie nowadays, it would be a

413
00:22:46,599 --> 00:22:53,000
sweeter probably like Jessica Day type or like a grandmotherly

414
00:22:53,079 --> 00:22:54,160
type character.

415
00:22:55,799 --> 00:22:57,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think so. I think it would be a

416
00:22:57,799 --> 00:23:00,599
gentler warm up. There might still be the game, and

417
00:23:01,319 --> 00:23:03,519
little boy might have needed the game, particularly an eighties

418
00:23:03,519 --> 00:23:04,000
little boy.

419
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:05,039
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.

420
00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:10,759
Speaker 4: As he would have needed it, But I hated the

421
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:12,119
lack of warm up.

422
00:23:12,599 --> 00:23:14,480
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, because the way this kid's introduced with his

423
00:23:14,599 --> 00:23:17,839
dad is so fucking brutal that like, from like minute one,

424
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:21,079
you're like desperate for this kid to have somebody in

425
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:24,240
his fucking life who seems to give a shit about him,

426
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,759
and it's gonna be fucking next to him, and you

427
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:29,559
just and a and then with the bully too, Like

428
00:23:29,599 --> 00:23:31,039
I think by that point in the movie, it's only

429
00:23:31,039 --> 00:23:32,519
like five minutes into the movie and you're already like,

430
00:23:32,519 --> 00:23:34,279
can someone please save this kid?

431
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:38,240
Speaker 4: Well, all the other adults were watching him be terrorized

432
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:42,079
on the street as he's just running through Vancouver or

433
00:23:42,079 --> 00:23:47,079
wherever it was, just trucking, it runs into the other adults.

434
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:51,400
There's clearly being pursued by three kids looking to do

435
00:23:51,559 --> 00:23:57,000
something not good in every other adult just goes on

436
00:23:57,079 --> 00:24:02,160
about their business, does nothing. Established his a loneness really

437
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,480
well cinematically.

438
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, And then also that he's a kid that obviously

439
00:24:07,759 --> 00:24:09,519
spending a lot of time by himself because he knows

440
00:24:09,559 --> 00:24:12,720
exactly where the key to the addict is, how to

441
00:24:12,759 --> 00:24:15,319
get it, how to go up there, Like that isn't

442
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:17,519
the first time or maybe even like the tenth time

443
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:20,880
he's hid in that attic space.

444
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:28,599
Speaker 4: No, no, he's been up there a lot. You know.

445
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,880
Speaker 3: What else I was thinking is that there aren't any

446
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:36,079
other Oh, I guess there is the old Lady to

447
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,119
the Little Old Man. I was trying to think if

448
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:42,640
there were any other women in the story at all

449
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,720
who are loving or warm, because most of the people

450
00:24:46,759 --> 00:24:48,680
that were most of the people that he interacts with

451
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,319
in the real world are men, And just how that's

452
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:57,359
kind of interesting that there isn't any Like, there's the Empress, right,

453
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:02,000
and she's really kind and sweet and warm, right, but

454
00:25:02,079 --> 00:25:04,319
there really isn't But there really isn't anyone else.

455
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,799
Speaker 2: I was just that just made me. It just jumped

456
00:25:07,799 --> 00:25:08,400
into my mind.

457
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,920
Speaker 3: So I was just curious if does that feel like

458
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,319
a thing or But then I remember the little Old Lady,

459
00:25:14,319 --> 00:25:16,079
So I don't know if that if that works, I.

460
00:25:16,039 --> 00:25:18,079
Speaker 4: Wouldn't have called her warm though.

461
00:25:18,599 --> 00:25:22,039
Speaker 3: Also true, also true, Yeah, she definitely wasn't warm.

462
00:25:22,079 --> 00:25:25,519
Speaker 2: She definitely was a gruffin. But I think it could

463
00:25:25,519 --> 00:25:25,920
have been.

464
00:25:26,279 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 1: I think it could have definitely been like a cinematic choice,

465
00:25:29,279 --> 00:25:34,759
for there didn't be no like feminine warmth in the

466
00:25:34,799 --> 00:25:36,720
movie because it was missing in his life.

467
00:25:37,079 --> 00:25:42,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, because the thing he needs to sort and find

468
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:47,279
connection with again is his mom. That's what's missing, that's

469
00:25:47,319 --> 00:25:49,720
what he wants, that's what he's looking for in his story,

470
00:25:49,799 --> 00:25:54,640
is a connection to her. So it wouldn't narratively make

471
00:25:54,680 --> 00:26:00,519
sense for there to be that energy from anybody else. Yeah,

472
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,279
it felt like the giant Stoneman was probably more on

473
00:26:04,319 --> 00:26:05,079
the long lines of.

474
00:26:05,079 --> 00:26:11,880
Speaker 1: His dead mm, like these big strong hands. Yep, that's yeah,

475
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:13,240
that's a good point.

476
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,279
Speaker 4: I'm just going to sit here and.

477
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,680
Speaker 1: Oh, oh god, that's the line from this movie that

478
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:25,960
makes me cry or almost makes you cry every time,

479
00:26:26,079 --> 00:26:31,319
that scene with the big rock guy looking at his hands. Yeah,

480
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:35,039
that is such like a brutal line. And I think

481
00:26:35,079 --> 00:26:40,440
that is the best summation It's like succinct summation of

482
00:26:40,519 --> 00:26:43,039
like what we're talking about with depression and like the

483
00:26:43,079 --> 00:26:45,519
hopelessness and kind of going into like the loss of

484
00:26:45,559 --> 00:26:49,359
identity part two of how when you go through something

485
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:54,319
like this like grief, not only does it shift your

486
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:59,680
identity from this from the sense of like I who

487
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:01,839
am I now that I don't have a mom, or

488
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,319
like what is our family now that there's this missing person?

489
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:06,920
In it, and like we're talking about with a dad,

490
00:27:07,039 --> 00:27:11,039
like the change in his identity from the secondary breadwinner,

491
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:15,000
you know, caregiver to now like having to be everything

492
00:27:15,039 --> 00:27:18,400
for this kid. But then also how it can fuck

493
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:23,200
with our identity as a strong person, a capable person,

494
00:27:23,319 --> 00:27:25,839
a person that can control their life.

495
00:27:26,519 --> 00:27:27,519
Speaker 2: Because I think that's a big.

496
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:31,839
Speaker 1: Part with the rock guy is I'm supposed to be

497
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,160
this big shronk thing that holds onto things and keeps

498
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:40,079
things safe. And I couldn't do that, So what's the point.

499
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,000
And how grief and like big life changes like this

500
00:27:44,039 --> 00:27:46,960
can really fuck with people's sense of self.

501
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:52,160
Speaker 4: And when they lose that, they let go, which sounds

502
00:27:52,200 --> 00:28:06,640
familiar yet again telling breath there, Hannah, Hannah's giving me

503
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:15,039
a big sight because that loss of identity piece, you

504
00:28:15,079 --> 00:28:17,440
could change loss of identity to loss of purpose.

505
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, really mean.

506
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 4: Loss of meaning. And yet again we're back to Victor Frankel,

507
00:28:26,279 --> 00:28:29,799
and that's exactly what he was talking about in man

508
00:28:29,799 --> 00:28:33,079
Starch for meaning. Is that stone guy I forgot what

509
00:28:33,079 --> 00:28:36,599
his name is, but him sitting there going but look

510
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,559
at these hands, they look like such boogs, strong hands.

511
00:28:41,759 --> 00:28:44,000
I couldn't hold on to people. So now I'll let

512
00:28:44,079 --> 00:28:45,079
the nothing take me.

513
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:46,319
Speaker 2: Yeah.

514
00:28:46,359 --> 00:28:50,279
Speaker 4: But that's what people go through when they're facing that

515
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:54,759
is I'm just ready to go.

516
00:28:55,519 --> 00:28:57,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, they give up, they do.

517
00:28:58,279 --> 00:29:03,359
Speaker 1: I think we see that in Avengers Endgame with Clint

518
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:08,400
or Divinity War, the last one with Clint Barton, because

519
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,519
he loses his whole family and then he just goes

520
00:29:11,519 --> 00:29:12,319
fucking rogue.

521
00:29:12,599 --> 00:29:15,039
Speaker 4: But when he turns to Ronan, yeah, yep.

522
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,279
Speaker 1: Like that's a classic example of I'm gonna throw my

523
00:29:18,279 --> 00:29:21,759
whole life away because it's gone anyway.

524
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:21,519
Speaker 2: And who cares.

525
00:29:22,119 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 1: I think it was a very active version of giving up,

526
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:25,119
but it's still giving up.

527
00:29:26,079 --> 00:29:28,119
Speaker 4: Well then when even when he gets him back, he's

528
00:29:28,359 --> 00:29:31,039
ready to throw himself because he can't face who he became.

529
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's a big part of like that existential

530
00:29:36,039 --> 00:29:38,640
lots of identity stuff like also what we sometimes will do,

531
00:29:39,079 --> 00:29:40,920
which could be what's going on with fashion as well.

532
00:29:41,319 --> 00:29:43,279
Like we talked about the acting out of character when

533
00:29:43,319 --> 00:29:47,640
you're caught up in these moments, and then are we

534
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:52,319
gonna keep being hard on ourselves and judge ourselves based

535
00:29:52,359 --> 00:29:56,319
on this like wild time in our life that is

536
00:29:58,039 --> 00:30:00,440
extraordinary in this abnormal.

537
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:05,519
Speaker 4: Are you asking a question?

538
00:30:05,839 --> 00:30:07,599
Speaker 2: I'm just done with my thought.

539
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 4: Okay, they felt like there was a question coming, and

540
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:11,400
then you looked at me.

541
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 2: I'm like, you know.

542
00:30:14,279 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 3: Something that I talk to clients about a lot when

543
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,880
I talk about their identity because we all know here

544
00:30:20,119 --> 00:30:22,920
that it's such a big aspect of grief, and I

545
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,279
just straight up tell them you are never going to

546
00:30:25,279 --> 00:30:28,039
be the same person that you were when they were alive.

547
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:31,880
Your life is different now, and that's just the truth.

548
00:30:34,599 --> 00:30:38,880
And I don't do that like right after they lose someone, clearly.

549
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:39,759
Speaker 2: But like it.

550
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 3: But it is something that once their symptoms have decreased

551
00:30:44,519 --> 00:30:49,000
a little bit, we can kind of talk about who

552
00:30:49,039 --> 00:30:54,160
you are now and what do you and what's important

553
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:54,440
to you.

554
00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:02,279
Speaker 4: It's really important to face that because I don't know

555
00:31:02,279 --> 00:31:05,680
if I've said that in the podcast before, but I

556
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:10,039
have been dealing with physical pain a lot with a

557
00:31:10,079 --> 00:31:13,400
pain disorder I live with. And it's something I learned

558
00:31:13,559 --> 00:31:17,720
NPT that once we get an injury and we start

559
00:31:17,759 --> 00:31:23,880
compensating for it, we learn new neural pathways to compensate

560
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:29,279
for that injury. There is no going back to the

561
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:33,599
old neural pathways. You can't sprain your ankle and run

562
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,640
the same way you did before you got hurt. And

563
00:31:37,759 --> 00:31:43,079
that sounds awful familiar to what Hannah just said, but

564
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,799
we never ever, ever have heard it that way before.

565
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's I don't know if it's because of my

566
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,599
own grief experience and that's a part of what really

567
00:31:52,599 --> 00:31:55,680
informed that piece of it for me. But I remember

568
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:59,640
when I was when I had lost I think my grandparents.

569
00:32:00,079 --> 00:32:02,079
When I lost my grandparents, I.

570
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 4: Was so.

571
00:32:04,079 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 2: I was I lost, just like we see bashing and

572
00:32:07,039 --> 00:32:08,640
the dad. I was completely lost.

573
00:32:09,279 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 3: And something that my therapist really helped was like, what

574
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,359
identity are we working on now?

575
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 2: And what is this going to look like?

576
00:32:18,759 --> 00:32:21,359
Speaker 3: And something else that I tell people when we're talking

577
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:25,799
about the loss of identity, I also talk to them about,

578
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:27,720
here are some things that you shouldn't do in the

579
00:32:27,799 --> 00:32:31,039
next six months. We're not going to make any big changes.

580
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,440
We're not going to do anything that's going to We're

581
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,440
not going to move, we're not going to change jobs.

582
00:32:36,839 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 2: I'm not going to do any of those things.

583
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 3: Nope, We're going to try and keep everything as much

584
00:32:41,519 --> 00:32:43,920
the same so you can go through the process that

585
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,519
you need to go through in order to get to

586
00:32:46,559 --> 00:32:47,480
the other side.

587
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 4: Of this correct As PI, many people want to just

588
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,640
up and move and up and run away or wait

589
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:58,000
it out, just like when you sprain your ankle. I'm

590
00:32:58,039 --> 00:32:59,759
just going to wait it out. Then I'm gonna be

591
00:32:59,759 --> 00:33:04,720
away again. And no, sir, no you're not. You have

592
00:33:04,799 --> 00:33:10,599
to retrain your body to be something different post injury,

593
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:17,960
because your body never unlearns an adaptation to pain, whether

594
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:21,119
it's physical or mental. So once you sprain that ankle,

595
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:26,440
your body remembers that ankle got sprained forever and what

596
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,200
to do to compensate for it. You never unlearn that neuropathway,

597
00:33:30,359 --> 00:33:33,359
but you can train a new one. So when we

598
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:39,240
face grief and loss, Hannah's statement is one thousand percent accurate.

599
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:44,160
We will never be the same again. We have to

600
00:33:44,359 --> 00:33:49,240
close that chapter and build a new version. That's all

601
00:33:49,279 --> 00:33:54,680
there is. That's what recovery from grief is. And really

602
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,680
I don't even like the word recovery. It's there is

603
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:04,400
no recovery. There's recovery from bereavement, but grieving I saw.

604
00:34:05,039 --> 00:34:08,639
I can't remember whether it was Elizabeth Cooper Ross who

605
00:34:08,639 --> 00:34:10,599
wrote the Five Stages of Grief. I think it was

606
00:34:10,639 --> 00:34:14,320
her who someone had asked her, So, doctor, when is

607
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:18,119
it that I get to be done grieving, and she

608
00:34:18,159 --> 00:34:21,480
wrote in her book. My response was, when do you

609
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:29,760
plan on not living? Damn well end something like that.

610
00:34:30,119 --> 00:34:33,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think what we see with him reading

611
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:35,440
the book, which we haven't really even really talked that

612
00:34:35,519 --> 00:34:39,239
much about the actual story, that he reads a fantasy

613
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:43,679
part of this movie. I think what we do see,

614
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:45,559
building on what you're saying, Ben, is I think what

615
00:34:45,599 --> 00:34:48,079
we do see as he's reading this book is he

616
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:52,920
is through the book figuring out how to be this

617
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:58,639
different version of himself, the post my mom has gone

618
00:34:58,719 --> 00:34:59,840
version of himself.

619
00:35:00,079 --> 00:35:01,039
Speaker 2: We dive into that though.

620
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,760
Speaker 1: Let's take a break here, and as always, if you

621
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:06,559
are a listener at su part of the podcast, you

622
00:35:06,559 --> 00:35:08,320
can leave us a rating and review wherever you listen

623
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:09,039
to podcasts.

624
00:35:09,519 --> 00:35:10,519
Speaker 2: We really appreciate it.

625
00:35:10,559 --> 00:35:12,039
Speaker 1: We read all of them and it's the best way

626
00:35:12,039 --> 00:35:15,360
for new people to find us. You can also support

627
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:17,679
us via Patreon. If you're a Patreon member, you can

628
00:35:17,679 --> 00:35:20,719
get early United access to some of our episodes. If

629
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:22,760
you are fifty dollars or more patron you can actually

630
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:24,719
pick the topic of an episode itself.

631
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 2: All right, So, yeah, we.

632
00:35:28,639 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 4: Didn't we barely.

633
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:29,880
Speaker 2: It's crazy.

634
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,119
Speaker 1: We've barely touched upon the actual fantasy element of this

635
00:35:32,159 --> 00:35:34,280
book of this movie, which is that he reads a

636
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:40,000
book about a kingdom named Fantasia where the world of

637
00:35:40,039 --> 00:35:42,280
Fantasia is being taken over by the Nothing, which is

638
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:43,280
a metaphor.

639
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 4: For depression of grief, Yes, and grief.

640
00:35:46,679 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 1: And it's being taken over more than nothing. And how

641
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:53,960
they're trying to save this world is they get a

642
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,320
young warrior and Nay betray you, who's also a ten

643
00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:59,480
year old boy ish the same age it seems to

644
00:35:59,519 --> 00:36:03,079
be around the same age as Bastionian to go on

645
00:36:03,159 --> 00:36:08,639
this quest to find information, I think, figure out how

646
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,280
to cure cure for the Empress, which is why I

647
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,079
also thought did his mom have cancer Bastion because it

648
00:36:15,119 --> 00:36:16,679
felt like I was like, is there one to one?

649
00:36:17,039 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 4: Seemed like that would have made sense.

650
00:36:19,039 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 2: I think that would make more sense in a car accident.

651
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:22,159
This idea that.

652
00:36:23,559 --> 00:36:28,840
Speaker 1: This female figure is dying and that this young boy

653
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:34,880
wants to figure out a way to save her and

654
00:36:35,079 --> 00:36:37,920
keep the bad thing, keep the nothing from taking over.

655
00:36:38,679 --> 00:36:42,480
Like it's a very obvious metaphor in a way that's

656
00:36:42,559 --> 00:36:46,039
good for kids, like kids watching this metaphor for kids. Yeah,

657
00:36:46,599 --> 00:36:48,079
it's not trying to overcomplicate it.

658
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:54,880
Speaker 4: Even at the beginning, EVA clock this movie cute. She's

659
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:59,679
so smart and scary, but sometimes she's a shit. But

660
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,480
she's even right when she's being a shit. Is we

661
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:04,239
were watching this and she's like, where's the mom?

662
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 1: Mom's dead kid watching a Disney movie that was made?

663
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:10,199
I don't know any I was going to say before

664
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:13,079
the two thousand but not even dead parents are rife

665
00:37:13,199 --> 00:37:14,000
in Disney movies.

666
00:37:14,199 --> 00:37:20,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, yes they are. Sorry I was we have been

667
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:27,519
operating under an incorrect assumption. In the book, she dies

668
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:32,679
from an unspecified illness. Oh okay, while in the hospital

669
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:33,639
during surgery.

670
00:37:34,079 --> 00:37:35,039
Speaker 2: That makes more sense.

671
00:37:35,199 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 4: In the two thousand and one TV series Tales from

672
00:37:39,039 --> 00:37:42,119
the Never Ending Story, what I no idea.

673
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:45,079
Speaker 2: Well, I'm going to read this book.

674
00:37:45,079 --> 00:37:49,599
Speaker 4: I've decided she is critically injured in a car accident.

675
00:37:49,679 --> 00:37:52,119
Speaker 1: Oh that must be what why? That's what I found

676
00:37:52,119 --> 00:37:56,320
on the internet Cuz it does feel like it's more

677
00:37:57,119 --> 00:38:00,159
the position that he would also feel as a boy,

678
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:05,760
as a kid, which is that I should be able

679
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,679
to figure out a way to save my mom. Yeah,

680
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,599
and that that is the most important mission. I mean,

681
00:38:11,599 --> 00:38:14,039
it's a direct metaphor, like if we can't figure out

682
00:38:14,039 --> 00:38:20,000
how to save this female, this queen, the most wonderful,

683
00:38:20,199 --> 00:38:24,400
powerful female in the world, then the world will be destroyed.

684
00:38:24,559 --> 00:38:28,960
Sadness will overtake it, and everything will be ruined, which

685
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,239
is exactly what happens to this kid. Yeah, is his

686
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:36,679
queen of his life dies, he can't save her, which

687
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,239
also at his age, though he's old enough that I

688
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:41,760
think he'd understand. I also don't really know how much

689
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:45,760
kids what cancer was talked about, how I was thought

690
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,440
about in the eighties. If that's what it is, you

691
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:50,559
know what I mean, our mysterious illness, But also if

692
00:38:50,559 --> 00:38:53,719
he is a dad, that's this fucking shut down.

693
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,400
Speaker 4: Well, if it's mysterious illness, I would assume it would

694
00:38:56,440 --> 00:39:04,760
be something fast like mrsa Oh, or I mean maybe cancer,

695
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:08,320
but she went in for surgery and then gone, So yeah,

696
00:39:08,519 --> 00:39:10,400
cancer is feasible. Why are you having surgery?

697
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,039
Speaker 1: But then yeah, but I guess the long on the

698
00:39:13,039 --> 00:39:15,039
short of his See, I could also see where this

699
00:39:15,199 --> 00:39:22,559
dad maybe uh biffed it in terms of explaining what

700
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:26,360
happened or what was happening to the mom and where

701
00:39:26,519 --> 00:39:28,119
then a kid's mind can go.

702
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:30,199
Speaker 2: But also, like in the movie A.

703
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 1: Monster Calls, which is also very excellent, but only watch

704
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,639
it if you want to like hysterically sob for real,

705
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:38,159
like hyperventilated sob like Hannah.

706
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,960
Speaker 2: And Rittine did when we saw it together, or were

707
00:39:41,039 --> 00:39:46,920
wet with our tears because it was so it's so beautiful,

708
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:50,000
but it's really intense. It's really intense.

709
00:39:50,679 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 1: I sobbed so hysterically, and the only thing keeping me

710
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:54,960
in check was that it was just the two of us,

711
00:39:55,079 --> 00:39:58,239
me and Hannah and then a mom and daughter and

712
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:01,159
the kid was probably like ten and under, and I

713
00:40:01,199 --> 00:40:04,480
was like, I can't scare this child's but like fully

714
00:40:04,559 --> 00:40:09,000
whale bobbing in this movie theater. Still it goes only

715
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:11,480
think giving me together, but I think also the way

716
00:40:11,519 --> 00:40:17,760
that like kids can take on so much perceived responsibility

717
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:20,320
for their worlds.

718
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:27,159
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's certainly possible. Society as a whole totally

719
00:40:27,159 --> 00:40:32,079
biffed it. It happens, we see it. The movie If

720
00:40:32,159 --> 00:40:35,599
is literally a pretty much about that same thing. If

721
00:40:35,639 --> 00:40:39,280
you guys didn't see that, they don't really explain what's

722
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:44,119
going on with Dad is played by John Krasinsky in

723
00:40:44,159 --> 00:40:48,920
that one. I mean it's still bearded John Krasinsky, So

724
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:53,280
I'm sure, that's right in your wheelhouse. So, but the

725
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:57,960
whole adventure of the Ifs is finding lost imaginary friends,

726
00:40:58,519 --> 00:41:03,280
which is very very similar to this movie, except they're

727
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:08,320
connecting people adults usually who've lost connection to their imaginary friend.

728
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:12,280
It's actually a beautiful film and it's very very much

729
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:18,840
a retelling of this just different. Yeah, it's it's absolutely

730
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:20,440
the same film, and I didn't realize it till right

731
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:26,880
this second. There's only so many stories. Yeah, well, let's

732
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:29,320
go on an adventure and a stranger comes to town, and

733
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:30,639
this one's a stranger comes to town.

734
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:32,360
Speaker 2: Yeah.

735
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 1: And I will also say with this part we're talking

736
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,599
about and I don't want to steal this insight from you, Hannah,

737
00:41:38,679 --> 00:41:41,360
so you can take it from here. Is how Also

738
00:41:41,679 --> 00:41:47,639
this smacks of the bargaining phase of grief, like maybe

739
00:41:47,679 --> 00:41:49,800
I could it in something different, Maybe there was a

740
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,239
world in which I could have found a cure this

741
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:55,159
idea that the story is telling of, like there is

742
00:41:55,199 --> 00:41:59,039
a way to save what's happening. And then when we

743
00:41:59,079 --> 00:42:01,360
realize by the end of the story that there was

744
00:42:01,519 --> 00:42:05,119
never going to be a way to say Fantasia, like

745
00:42:05,159 --> 00:42:09,039
this is a story that's told in a cycle and

746
00:42:09,679 --> 00:42:11,239
that it was always going to end the way that

747
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:11,719
it ended.

748
00:42:13,119 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so in terms of so, as I was

749
00:42:16,519 --> 00:42:20,920
watching the film, I started to notice that it seems

750
00:42:21,119 --> 00:42:30,000
like Bastian his name is so stupid, do you that's annoying.

751
00:42:30,039 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 2: It's just a Bastian, like your favorite guy.

752
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:44,639
Speaker 3: But his name isn't just Bastin Bashi Anyway, it doesn't matter, wish.

753
00:42:44,679 --> 00:42:45,239
Speaker 4: That's fair.

754
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:48,079
Speaker 2: That's very fucking true, very true. I would have hated that.

755
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:52,199
Don't bring that up.

756
00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:01,360
Speaker 3: So anyway, what I was noticing when I was watching

757
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:05,960
the film is that it really seemed like Bashtin is

758
00:43:06,039 --> 00:43:09,800
going through the stages of grief in terms of reading

759
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:12,440
the story, and we kind of see all of the

760
00:43:12,519 --> 00:43:15,119
different pieces and really, I would say more of just

761
00:43:15,159 --> 00:43:17,239
like the five stages. I know now I think there's

762
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:19,519
seven or nine stages of grief or something.

763
00:43:19,639 --> 00:43:22,360
Speaker 4: There's formally six, but people love to add on.

764
00:43:23,079 --> 00:43:23,519
Speaker 2: Yeah.

765
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:25,320
Speaker 3: I looked it up a couple times and looked at

766
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:26,880
it because I was talking to a client about the

767
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:30,559
stages of grief. So kind of what we see in

768
00:43:30,599 --> 00:43:33,440
the film in terms of stages of grief, we see

769
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:37,440
denial with his dad, we see him, we see the

770
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:41,800
depression experience that he has we watch him again. Brittany

771
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:44,599
pointed out the bargaining that happens, and then at the

772
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:49,519
end some acceptance of just this is this is what

773
00:43:49,559 --> 00:43:52,280
your life is going to be like now, and what

774
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:53,360
do you want to do with it?

775
00:43:53,679 --> 00:43:54,800
Speaker 2: And how do you want to live it?

776
00:43:55,320 --> 00:44:02,159
Speaker 4: And you can still find a little bit of luck. Yeah,

777
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:04,840
but you still see and you see the anger.

778
00:44:05,119 --> 00:44:07,159
Speaker 2: Oh in anger. Yeah, I did forget anger.

779
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:12,039
Speaker 4: But you don't see anger until he encounters to trait you.

780
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:13,360
Speaker 2: Yeah.

781
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 4: Anger comes across in two different metaphors. Which is one

782
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:20,840
of the other female energies we see in the show

783
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:21,440
is the turtle.

784
00:44:22,159 --> 00:44:27,519
Speaker 1: Oh, morla, goddamn that turtle. That's some depression as well.

785
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:28,360
Speaker 2: Wow.

786
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:30,519
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's full on don't give a fuck.

787
00:44:31,119 --> 00:44:33,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, it doesn't matter. Is that what she kept saying? Yeah,

788
00:44:33,639 --> 00:44:38,800
it doesn't matter. It's nihilism, It doesn't Yeah. Is that

789
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:39,400
what she says?

790
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:41,800
Speaker 1: Not that she goes sayings, not that it matters, not

791
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:45,360
that it matters. After every sentence she says.

792
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:47,280
Speaker 4: Do you know where to find the cure? I do,

793
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:54,480
Not that it matters? Yeah, go away. Clearly that's a

794
00:44:54,559 --> 00:45:00,880
voice inside of him mm hmmm, and maybe a grandparent. Yeah,

795
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:05,199
that gave him the similar message to dad, I'm just

796
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:09,840
go ahead and guess or a teacher mmmmm, but some

797
00:45:10,079 --> 00:45:13,960
other adult represented that voice that he internalized in that

798
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,760
book and well.

799
00:45:16,639 --> 00:45:20,719
Speaker 1: And also that Morla is also the loneliness too, like

800
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:23,119
she talks about I've been I've been here for so

801
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:27,599
long by myself that I use the Royal Wi to

802
00:45:27,639 --> 00:45:28,440
feel less alone.

803
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:31,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, because that's how alone it can get.

804
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then.

805
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:37,239
Speaker 4: We see the anger from betray You at the horse.

806
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:42,119
Speaker 2: Yes, he does get mad at the horse.

807
00:45:43,119 --> 00:45:47,360
Speaker 4: Which I found myself wondering if our text was dead.

808
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:53,639
Speaker 1: Oh, like you're just giving up, like can't you fight?

809
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:55,559
And not just can't you fight?

810
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:58,760
Speaker 3: But I had to fight so I can save you.

811
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 2: You have to try, you have to. I love you.

812
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:05,199
Oh funny, so brutal. That kid is so good.

813
00:46:05,079 --> 00:46:08,800
Speaker 1: In that scene. He is crying sobbing at that horse.

814
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:11,280
It's like, I know, that's the famous scene that everyone's

815
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:13,079
probably waiting for us to talk about with this movie

816
00:46:13,679 --> 00:46:20,400
because it ripped everyone's hearts out. Everyone's first trauma was

817
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:21,559
this movie as kids.

818
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:24,639
Speaker 2: But yeah, I think you're right.

819
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:28,519
Speaker 1: Is having someone that you're supposed to depend on you

820
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:31,559
that you need that's supposed to be more powerful than

821
00:46:31,599 --> 00:46:34,800
you and get you from one place to another literally

822
00:46:35,039 --> 00:46:36,480
and metaphorically.

823
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:37,800
Speaker 4: Carry you on its back.

824
00:46:38,079 --> 00:46:41,239
Speaker 2: Reliable. Yeah, yeah, I.

825
00:46:41,119 --> 00:46:43,159
Speaker 4: Didn't realize it until we were talking about this movie.

826
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:46,079
I thought of it a few minutes ago, Like, I

827
00:46:46,119 --> 00:46:49,440
bet our text is dead and that Dad used to

828
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:53,960
be a stable source of energy, because I feel like

829
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:57,320
we're sitting on dead probably unfairly because only see him

830
00:46:57,320 --> 00:46:59,119
for thirty seconds in one interaction.

831
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:01,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, he just makes such bad impression.

832
00:47:01,559 --> 00:47:03,760
Speaker 4: I mean did as well.

833
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:06,199
Speaker 2: But yeah, but he's probably grieving and.

834
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:09,159
Speaker 4: He's not I mean probably probably you've been like a

835
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:12,920
signing this, like maybe to him, like maybe dad just sucks.

836
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:16,199
Speaker 2: No, I'd be like, yeah, he's grieving too.

837
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:17,119
Speaker 4: He's destroyed.

838
00:47:17,199 --> 00:47:20,239
Speaker 1: He's trying to drink his you know, egg orange juice

839
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:21,960
and it's not going to be enough.

840
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:27,719
Speaker 4: Not enough eggs in the world. But the image of

841
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:32,719
losing that and just watching it sink into sadness slowly

842
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:37,320
and there being nothing children do that. When I'm sad

843
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:39,960
and my kid wants to play, it looks like that,

844
00:47:40,119 --> 00:47:42,559
I mean, not not ever that sad.

845
00:47:43,119 --> 00:47:44,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know what you mean.

846
00:47:44,559 --> 00:47:47,199
Speaker 4: When I'm not okay, and she wants to play. She's like, Daddy,

847
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:50,039
why aren't you playing with me? They try to pull

848
00:47:50,079 --> 00:47:50,840
you out of it.

849
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:51,440
Speaker 2: Yeah.

850
00:47:51,559 --> 00:47:55,119
Speaker 1: Kids are vibe sensitive, of course they are. That's they

851
00:47:55,159 --> 00:47:57,360
have to be to survive.

852
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:02,880
Speaker 4: They depend on us, yeah, to carry them into the

853
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:05,280
adventure in the universe. And it's not until some point

854
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:09,119
life consumes us and we expire that they have to

855
00:48:09,159 --> 00:48:12,760
find their own way or they're old enough and ready. Yeah,

856
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:18,039
but that wasn't Bastian's story. No, he wasn't ready for that,

857
00:48:19,119 --> 00:48:26,119
and somebody already left and then Artech short after just succumbed.

858
00:48:26,679 --> 00:48:30,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, it happens very early in a trey U's journey.

859
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:33,159
I think I forget how early, which also tracks with

860
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:35,039
the one to one we're comparing.

861
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:40,360
Speaker 4: Right, He's okay, we're gonna be okay, we're gonna go

862
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:41,519
on this journey. I don't know what to do. I

863
00:48:41,559 --> 00:48:43,440
don't know where to go. We're getting a little lost here.

864
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:45,960
And then the person he's going on that journey with

865
00:48:46,079 --> 00:48:52,039
relying on to carry him, it's gone.

866
00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 1: During like the first real trial, which sounds about right.

867
00:48:57,039 --> 00:48:59,719
And then he's trying to find like another quote unquote

868
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:03,000
like adult with this giant turtle that's supposed to be

869
00:49:03,079 --> 00:49:05,440
all knowing, which I think also could be a good

870
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:12,480
metaphor for how kids do need adults to be stable too.

871
00:49:12,559 --> 00:49:14,360
You know, like this person supposed to have all the

872
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:17,840
answers and there's supposed to be a source of comfort

873
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:23,320
and information and reassurance, and instead mor La just like

874
00:49:25,199 --> 00:49:28,239
just pulls this kid into what's going on with her.

875
00:49:29,639 --> 00:49:33,599
It's like pulling this kid into their nihilism.

876
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:34,920
Speaker 4: While also rejecting him.

877
00:49:35,119 --> 00:49:37,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, and sneezing on him.

878
00:49:38,639 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a rejection, double rejection. Yeah, I hate that part.

879
00:49:45,119 --> 00:49:47,320
I hate that in like Jurassic Park, I hate any

880
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:49,960
movie from that time period where a kid is getting

881
00:49:50,079 --> 00:49:52,280
sneezed on and gettings not all over them.

882
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:57,719
Speaker 4: I mean, it's pretty gross and visceral. But this was

883
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:04,199
so different. Sounds a little funny. This not so much.

884
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:06,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, And the way this kid has to keep betray you,

885
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:11,679
has to keep getting himself up, brushing himself off, climbing

886
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:15,719
back up the tree. Like he's such a resilient kid,

887
00:50:16,599 --> 00:50:21,440
and he's such a determined kid, and he's a kid

888
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:27,920
that really really kind of radically believes in himself and

889
00:50:28,039 --> 00:50:32,400
believes in the journey he's on and yeah, just keeps

890
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:34,079
working and working and working at it.

891
00:50:35,519 --> 00:50:39,519
Speaker 4: Which realizing the brilliance of this movie is hitting me

892
00:50:39,639 --> 00:50:42,800
now in ways it didn't before. I think the bookstore

893
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:44,840
guy is the luck Dragon.

894
00:50:46,039 --> 00:50:52,880
Speaker 3: Oh sure, yeah, I didn't mean that to sound shitty.

895
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:54,960
Speaker 4: No, I get it.

896
00:50:55,079 --> 00:51:01,079
Speaker 3: Like when we were talking about luck Dragon, we were

897
00:51:01,119 --> 00:51:04,679
talking about how it's like the optimism. Yep, it's like

898
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:07,559
all the optimism in the world that this and this

899
00:51:08,199 --> 00:51:12,079
dragon is just it's a lucky dragon, so lucky things happen.

900
00:51:12,199 --> 00:51:17,480
Speaker 2: Like it's just so kind of almost yes, idealistic.

901
00:51:17,639 --> 00:51:19,639
Speaker 1: Well, the belief like when he says, like, do you

902
00:51:19,679 --> 00:51:21,519
know where we're going or something like that, and he

903
00:51:21,599 --> 00:51:25,320
says it'll work out, Like just this belief that the

904
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:28,360
luck dragon has that which a tray you does need

905
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:30,360
at this point, because so much shit has happened to

906
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:32,639
him and he's just come across all these.

907
00:51:34,039 --> 00:51:36,599
Speaker 2: Authority figures that can't do anything.

908
00:51:36,679 --> 00:51:39,440
Speaker 1: They keep letting him down, keep bumming him out, keep

909
00:51:39,679 --> 00:51:43,920
trying to pull him into this adult level nihilism and

910
00:51:44,119 --> 00:51:49,559
sadness and just giving up, you know, and so he

911
00:51:49,599 --> 00:51:52,960
really needed to find well, two things happen, right. He

912
00:51:53,039 --> 00:51:56,920
finds a luck dragon, which is idealism, the belief that

913
00:51:56,960 --> 00:52:00,000
things can work out, that good things can happen to you.

914
00:52:00,159 --> 00:52:03,320
And then also yeah, and then also he runs into

915
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:08,400
this the scientist couple who take care of him. So

916
00:52:08,559 --> 00:52:13,159
these two things happen at once that he needs and

917
00:52:13,199 --> 00:52:18,360
that Sebastian needs. Sebastian needs Ambassian needs, which is hope

918
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:23,480
and people and TLC. Yeah, to be taken care of,

919
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:29,320
to have his wounds dressed, and to be fed, and

920
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:34,360
to sleep and to rest and to feel safe and

921
00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:37,400
that that that is what carries a tray you to

922
00:52:37,519 --> 00:52:39,639
like the next stage of his journey. So I do

923
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:45,199
like that, and it doesn't sell this unrealistic idea that

924
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:48,239
a tray you had to just like keep standing out.

925
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:51,880
I was on two feet all by himself the entire time.

926
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:55,039
Like there is this moment in around the middle of

927
00:52:55,079 --> 00:52:59,760
the journey where he does need help and he actually

928
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:04,920
gets help from others, from other authority figures, which is

929
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:07,280
what we want Bashen to have, right, He needs someone

930
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:10,159
to come into his life, which I guess this bookseller

931
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:14,119
is to create a different story.

932
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:20,599
Speaker 4: Yep. Yeah, And before we start talking about that any further,

933
00:53:20,679 --> 00:53:22,480
hannahs there anything more we want to cover on the

934
00:53:22,519 --> 00:53:23,480
stages of grief.

935
00:53:25,079 --> 00:53:25,719
Speaker 2: I don't think so.

936
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 3: I feel like I feel like it was just really

937
00:53:29,079 --> 00:53:32,639
interesting to view the film that way. So maybe, as

938
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:35,039
you know, our listeners, if you watch the film, really

939
00:53:35,079 --> 00:53:37,480
think about the different stages of grief and see if

940
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:40,159
you can kind of pick it out, because it's pretty clear,

941
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:42,960
Like it's pretty like we've talked about, it's a pretty

942
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:45,639
simple story in a lot of different ways, and so

943
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:48,719
and just knowing that you know. Something else I'd just

944
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:50,519
like to let people know about stages of grief is

945
00:53:50,559 --> 00:53:52,599
that it does not go in order, babe.

946
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:54,039
Speaker 4: It goes.

947
00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:59,480
Speaker 3: You go back and forth between all the different stages

948
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:03,400
at different times. It does not go one, two, three, four, five, six.

949
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:04,880
That is not how it is.

950
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:10,280
Speaker 4: Literally says that in the first chapter of that book,

951
00:54:10,559 --> 00:54:14,599
this was not meant to represent a linear process. It

952
00:54:14,679 --> 00:54:15,039
is not.

953
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:15,679
Speaker 3: Yeah.

954
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:18,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, our like western way of thinking has made it

955
00:54:18,119 --> 00:54:19,239
into a linear process.

956
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:25,920
Speaker 4: Yes, right, But Elizabeth Coogler Ross right in the beginning

957
00:54:26,239 --> 00:54:30,559
of her book says what Hannah just said, not linear. Yeah,

958
00:54:30,639 --> 00:54:34,039
it is not meant to illustrate that you go from

959
00:54:34,079 --> 00:54:36,719
one to the next. You will move in and out

960
00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:40,000
of them. And one of the things that I've particularly

961
00:54:40,079 --> 00:54:43,400
seen with it is that through my frame of reference

962
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:47,440
looking at it at the adaptive information processing from AMDR,

963
00:54:47,599 --> 00:54:53,000
is that each time you encounter a familiar stimuli, something

964
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:55,079
that should be simular, I look at it is each

965
00:54:55,159 --> 00:54:58,000
time you dig up a new box yeah, full of

966
00:54:58,039 --> 00:55:02,360
information affecting the database you have in your head to

967
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:07,800
still match, and it doesn't. So you have to reprocess it,

968
00:55:08,519 --> 00:55:10,599
and you're going to have the feelings. And you might

969
00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:16,039
work through all the stages again really quick, or move

970
00:55:16,119 --> 00:55:18,199
through any particularly on You might have been fine and

971
00:55:18,239 --> 00:55:21,320
then you hear a song that reminds you that somebody died,

972
00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:24,199
and now you're mad as hell because you were supposed

973
00:55:24,199 --> 00:55:30,679
to be fine today. Fuck or you get wrecked, just tears.

974
00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:34,440
Speaker 3: I burst into tears at a grocery store because the

975
00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:40,559
old woman behind the the cashier person was just really

976
00:55:40,559 --> 00:55:43,360
sweet to me, and she kind of looked like my grandma,

977
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:45,519
and she kind of reminded me of her a little bit,

978
00:55:45,519 --> 00:55:47,519
and I just burst into tears in the grocery line,

979
00:55:47,679 --> 00:55:51,039
like it was just it just happened, right, you know,

980
00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:55,320
it doesn't again, it doesn't. There's not a flag that

981
00:55:55,360 --> 00:55:57,000
goes up or a signal that goes off. That's like

982
00:55:57,039 --> 00:55:59,679
you are now and this stage of grief. That is

983
00:55:59,719 --> 00:56:01,280
not how it works.

984
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:06,440
Speaker 4: Nope. You perceive all information you've ever taken in with

985
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:09,599
your senses, and then you encode it for relevance with

986
00:56:09,639 --> 00:56:13,800
your emotions, whatever ones you need to feel. That's what's

987
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:18,000
going to happen, and that might come with tears because

988
00:56:18,679 --> 00:56:21,639
Grandma's energy is represented by this clerk and you realize

989
00:56:22,199 --> 00:56:24,440
I didn't realize I missed that until right now, and

990
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:27,760
I hadn't thought about that particular aspect of it, but

991
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:32,320
now I have to because I felt it. And yep,

992
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:33,719
I'd say.

993
00:56:33,719 --> 00:56:36,079
Speaker 1: The one last thing I want to say about the

994
00:56:36,119 --> 00:56:39,559
stages of grief is I do really applaud how this

995
00:56:39,639 --> 00:56:45,840
movie demonstrates what acceptance actually feels like. It's not this

996
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:50,920
shiny version of acceptance. It's not like acceptance is like, okay,

997
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:53,960
now we're fine. It's more, I think how the show

998
00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:55,400
in the movie is more when we think of things

999
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:59,639
like radical acceptance, which is I have to accept what

1000
00:56:59,679 --> 00:57:03,079
can longer be changed and try to figure out what

1001
00:57:03,119 --> 00:57:05,719
I do have control over still so and that's how

1002
00:57:05,719 --> 00:57:07,119
they show at the beginning of this movie, like she

1003
00:57:07,199 --> 00:57:10,800
says to him, Fantasia is gone, you know, like we're

1004
00:57:10,800 --> 00:57:14,800
not going back to that way of it is, but

1005
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:20,639
you can start to create a new form of your life,

1006
00:57:21,559 --> 00:57:23,360
kind of what you were saying before Ben about like

1007
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:25,920
you have to let go of like your body operating

1008
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:28,800
this way it did before. I think with this is

1009
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:30,599
I think when I was a kid, I didn't appreciate.

1010
00:57:30,639 --> 00:57:33,199
I think the ending used to kind of I don't

1011
00:57:33,199 --> 00:57:34,480
know if it used to like kind of confuse me

1012
00:57:34,519 --> 00:57:37,519
as a kid because it doesn't have like the happy ending.

1013
00:57:37,719 --> 00:57:39,719
I mean, like the him flying out luck dragon kind of.

1014
00:57:39,639 --> 00:57:41,480
Speaker 4: Does and he's running the bullies do.

1015
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:44,840
Speaker 1: But I do think when I was a kid though,

1016
00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:47,880
watching it, the ending did kind of make my brain

1017
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:51,800
sort of like like does not compute because that's not how.

1018
00:57:51,679 --> 00:57:53,400
Speaker 2: The story's supposed to be, right.

1019
00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:55,239
Speaker 1: He's supposed to figure out the cure in the nick

1020
00:57:55,280 --> 00:58:00,199
of time and then Fintasia lives again or everything goes

1021
00:58:00,199 --> 00:58:00,760
back to normal.

1022
00:58:01,039 --> 00:58:01,199
Speaker 4: Yep.

1023
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:03,800
Speaker 1: So I really do appreciate how this is more of

1024
00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:07,920
what acceptance does look like, and that life can still

1025
00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:11,199
be good. It will have to be a different kind

1026
00:58:11,199 --> 00:58:13,840
of good, though, and it won't be the same as

1027
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:17,039
it was before Yeah, yep, And we can't create this

1028
00:58:17,079 --> 00:58:18,719
new life until we let go of the old one.

1029
00:58:20,079 --> 00:58:23,519
And so it is a really cool message that does

1030
00:58:24,119 --> 00:58:28,840
require a level of like sophistication that it's I don't know,

1031
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:31,320
I really respect when kids' movies don't try to dumb

1032
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:35,679
down these more sophisticated ideas.

1033
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:39,000
Speaker 4: I agree, because they do sit with it.

1034
00:58:39,559 --> 00:58:42,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, and she doesn't let him like run from it either.

1035
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:46,320
Like that whole ending scene is so kind of like slow, yeah,

1036
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:53,199
and quiet and not like exciting or you know, or

1037
00:58:53,239 --> 00:58:57,320
flashy or like hella climactic even it's just he's sitting

1038
00:58:57,320 --> 00:59:01,480
with her in the dark pretty much and they're just

1039
00:59:01,599 --> 00:59:08,239
talking like this very aarsmr voice, and it's very poignant

1040
00:59:08,239 --> 00:59:12,199
and quiet and very different than kids' movies typically are.

1041
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:19,079
Speaker 4: It certainly does, all right, So let's take a break here.

1042
00:59:19,599 --> 00:59:22,320
So back from break here, our last section we're gonna

1043
00:59:22,320 --> 00:59:24,239
talk about before we talk about treatment and final thoughts

1044
00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:29,360
is looking at experiential and expressive healing that needs to

1045
00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:32,679
happen for grief. And Brittany were just talking about how

1046
00:59:33,480 --> 00:59:38,159
much you love when kid movies don't shy away from

1047
00:59:38,199 --> 00:59:39,960
the adult topics and kind of let there be an

1048
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:43,559
actual lesson and meaning from the story, which how German

1049
00:59:43,639 --> 00:59:46,519
of this story.

1050
00:59:46,559 --> 00:59:50,800
Speaker 2: It's very German. Kids. You want to feel death. One day,

1051
00:59:50,880 --> 00:59:52,519
it will come at your door.

1052
00:59:52,880 --> 01:00:00,000
Speaker 4: And you must deal with it. I have German heritage,

1053
01:00:00,159 --> 01:00:01,599
so I'll forgive you.

1054
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:03,880
Speaker 1: Like me when I do a French accent, and I'm like,

1055
01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:05,519
I could do it because I'm French.

1056
01:00:05,519 --> 01:00:09,760
Speaker 4: Right, never mind, I'm sure Germans would disagree with us.

1057
01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:12,840
Is where America? See? Are Americans? Okay?

1058
01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:14,639
Speaker 2: Accent?

1059
01:00:19,079 --> 01:00:24,360
Speaker 4: Donald say hello? As many as accents as I want.

1060
01:00:24,559 --> 01:00:26,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're all terrible, that's clear.

1061
01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:30,920
Speaker 4: Yes, But I mean somebody did tell me they didn't

1062
01:00:30,920 --> 01:00:33,000
want me to talk about Batman anymore. So what they

1063
01:00:33,079 --> 01:00:35,480
forgot to include was the monkey's pad that it could

1064
01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:37,800
become accents. If I don't talk about Batman.

1065
01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:42,039
Speaker 3: And talk about Batman, then do weird accents.

1066
01:00:44,079 --> 01:00:54,239
Speaker 4: I'm sure my kid yells at me every time, Daddy,

1067
01:00:54,440 --> 01:00:56,679
use your normal voice, because I'll put accents on for books,

1068
01:00:56,719 --> 01:01:01,559
and he's like daddy.

1069
01:01:00,079 --> 01:01:07,280
Speaker 3: Bit more when your kid doesn't like it, But.

1070
01:01:07,559 --> 01:01:10,480
Speaker 4: She's also like her mohamma and like will troll anything

1071
01:01:10,519 --> 01:01:11,000
that I do.

1072
01:01:11,480 --> 01:01:14,559
Speaker 2: You know, just this is my life.

1073
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:18,440
Speaker 4: I need it. It's okay, I can take it, but

1074
01:01:19,159 --> 01:01:24,840
AnyWho brain adventure aside. Something I also like is when

1075
01:01:25,079 --> 01:01:30,039
you see adult movies do the inverse or shows. And

1076
01:01:30,239 --> 01:01:32,280
one of the best examples I ever found to kind

1077
01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:34,199
of provide a mirror to what Brittany was talking about

1078
01:01:34,320 --> 01:01:38,920
was Scrubs. There's a really powerful episode of Scrubs where

1079
01:01:39,599 --> 01:01:44,559
doctor Cox, who's a giant asshole all the time except

1080
01:01:44,559 --> 01:01:47,199
to his kid, and this sweet little boy is looking

1081
01:01:47,199 --> 01:01:49,360
at him and Daddy, what'd you do today? Tell me

1082
01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:54,440
a bedtime story? And so you see doctor Cox, this

1083
01:01:54,679 --> 01:01:58,519
gruff but also very very talented carrying doctor just keeps

1084
01:01:58,559 --> 01:02:01,000
a gruff, shitty exterior, is kind of a bully but

1085
01:02:01,639 --> 01:02:04,719
does it hilariously, which makes it okay in the nineties

1086
01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:10,480
right or early two thousands. But what he tells is

1087
01:02:10,920 --> 01:02:15,079
a night story, kind of like a fantasy story of

1088
01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:20,079
how they were racing to fight against a dragon. And

1089
01:02:20,159 --> 01:02:22,920
all throughout the episode there's this parallel of a patient

1090
01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:28,920
who's dying and they can't really figure out why, and

1091
01:02:29,920 --> 01:02:32,719
all throughout the episode you see these students sitting in

1092
01:02:32,760 --> 01:02:35,360
the breakroom studying for their medical exams, and they're looking

1093
01:02:35,440 --> 01:02:39,599
at weird diseases that doctor Cox in particularly usually quizzes

1094
01:02:39,639 --> 01:02:43,000
them on because sometimes they come through the hospital and

1095
01:02:43,079 --> 01:02:46,480
he's telling his kid the story about this golden ring,

1096
01:02:46,559 --> 01:02:50,280
because what turns out to be the disease Q is

1097
01:02:50,320 --> 01:02:53,119
that this patient has like a brass ring around her iris.

1098
01:02:54,199 --> 01:02:56,400
And as he's telling the story to his kid, he's

1099
01:02:56,440 --> 01:02:59,320
like working through this and you realize at the end

1100
01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:02,960
of this story that she didn't make it. They didn't

1101
01:03:02,960 --> 01:03:05,239
figure it out in time. And the kid asked in

1102
01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:08,519
the story, Daddy, did they save the dragon or they

1103
01:03:08,519 --> 01:03:11,039
save the princess from the dragon, And you see doctor

1104
01:03:11,039 --> 01:03:13,840
Cox like swallow and get sad, and just like we'll

1105
01:03:13,840 --> 01:03:16,880
say yes in this story, you see him working through it.

1106
01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:20,199
And they don't let you off the hook, but they

1107
01:03:20,360 --> 01:03:24,679
see him working through it and realizing there's another story

1108
01:03:24,760 --> 01:03:29,840
to tell next time by learning that this time, next time,

1109
01:03:29,840 --> 01:03:33,880
I can save that patient. And sometimes when we have

1110
01:03:34,079 --> 01:03:38,199
this grief, these losses, one of the things we need

1111
01:03:38,320 --> 01:03:42,679
is to work through that sadness, to feel that hurt

1112
01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:46,280
and assign the meaning to it. And it sucks so

1113
01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:50,400
bad and you want nothing more than to avoid it

1114
01:03:50,760 --> 01:03:53,000
and get that happy ending where you win every time,

1115
01:03:53,039 --> 01:03:59,039
But that is not life. We do not stop death ever,

1116
01:03:59,840 --> 01:04:03,679
So sometimes we can delay it, but you'll never stop it.

1117
01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:09,400
They tell us in grad school one thing that everybody

1118
01:04:09,679 --> 01:04:13,079
floor drops out from under you. Right, What's that thing?

1119
01:04:13,480 --> 01:04:16,039
Every therapist hears it day one of grad school.

1120
01:04:16,079 --> 01:04:18,239
Speaker 2: What they tell you, guys, one of your clients is

1121
01:04:18,239 --> 01:04:19,400
going to die by suicide.

1122
01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:23,079
Speaker 4: One of your clients is gonna die by suicide. It's

1123
01:04:23,280 --> 01:04:27,880
going to happen. You will not see it coming. You

1124
01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:32,039
will not know, or you'll make a mistake. And ironically enough,

1125
01:04:32,559 --> 01:04:36,519
it's doctor Cox and Scrubs that tells the doctors. And

1126
01:04:36,559 --> 01:04:39,480
I think in that episode, you will kill a patient.

1127
01:04:40,599 --> 01:04:43,079
Every single one of you will kill a patient. It

1128
01:04:43,079 --> 01:04:46,119
will be your fault. And in this time it was him.

1129
01:04:46,599 --> 01:04:49,320
He didn't catch it. The answer had been in front

1130
01:04:49,360 --> 01:04:52,239
of him the whole episode, and it didn't click in

1131
01:04:52,280 --> 01:04:55,719
his head until he was playing that back. But when

1132
01:04:55,719 --> 01:04:58,159
he told his kid the story, he signed a different

1133
01:04:58,239 --> 01:05:02,920
ending to it. Being able to process the meaning of

1134
01:05:02,960 --> 01:05:07,280
our grief and our loss is huge because the lessons

1135
01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:12,159
we take from it allow us to keep going with

1136
01:05:12,320 --> 01:05:16,079
that pain without trying to change it by assigning some

1137
01:05:16,360 --> 01:05:21,199
meaning to it to go forward with it. Today, I

1138
01:05:21,320 --> 01:05:24,559
was talking to someone who lost a family member to suicide,

1139
01:05:25,920 --> 01:05:30,519
and talking to that person was reminding that remember, Mother's

1140
01:05:30,559 --> 01:05:35,480
against Drunk Driving really powerful lobby. Why does it exist?

1141
01:05:35,960 --> 01:05:39,559
Eyes got wirde of like, oh shit. This person was

1142
01:05:40,440 --> 01:05:44,559
had been working on songs, music, writing their own music

1143
01:05:44,840 --> 01:05:48,280
to deal with their grief. This client of mine that

1144
01:05:48,320 --> 01:05:51,280
I saw today, britt, he's looking at me like not following.

1145
01:05:51,320 --> 01:05:58,199
It's okay, right, But Mother's against Drunk Driving exists because

1146
01:05:58,239 --> 01:05:59,960
somebody lost their child to a junk driver.

1147
01:06:00,280 --> 01:06:00,440
Speaker 2: Right.

1148
01:06:03,719 --> 01:06:07,719
Speaker 4: This person's writing songs to express their grief. They couldn't

1149
01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:11,679
do it in other ways, but songs to work through

1150
01:06:11,679 --> 01:06:15,440
it has been extraordinarily helpful. One of the things we

1151
01:06:15,519 --> 01:06:20,000
have to realize with these experiential expressive moments and experiences

1152
01:06:20,119 --> 01:06:25,039
like Bashian having to name the Empress. That's the only

1153
01:06:25,079 --> 01:06:28,559
thing that can save Fantasia. That's the only thing that

1154
01:06:28,599 --> 01:06:33,280
can rebuild the world when the nothing destroys it. Nothing

1155
01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:39,760
can stop the nothing except embracing it and rebuilding and

1156
01:06:39,800 --> 01:06:44,760
not letting it take the last spark. That's the thing,

1157
01:06:44,840 --> 01:06:50,159
that's the only thing. And by expressing, sitting in the grief,

1158
01:06:50,559 --> 01:06:55,440
experiencing it, and then expressing the feelings that need to

1159
01:06:55,440 --> 01:07:00,320
be expressed. Facing the hardest part, the worst thing. It

1160
01:07:00,400 --> 01:07:04,320
take you, but not all of you. That is where

1161
01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:06,239
recovery begins.

1162
01:07:07,079 --> 01:07:10,320
Speaker 1: And I also think with Fashion and how I see

1163
01:07:10,360 --> 01:07:18,760
in this movie too, is having to find again what like,

1164
01:07:19,000 --> 01:07:22,360
like you're saying, the spark of his own imagination and

1165
01:07:22,400 --> 01:07:30,000
creativity and like his fantasia his world internally, and how

1166
01:07:30,400 --> 01:07:32,199
like he says at the end when he's really resistant

1167
01:07:32,199 --> 01:07:34,400
to that idea, I have to keep my feet on

1168
01:07:34,440 --> 01:07:36,760
the ground, which is him repeating what his dad literally

1169
01:07:36,840 --> 01:07:41,159
said in the beginning of the movie, And how these

1170
01:07:41,320 --> 01:07:45,599
more creative ways to express and work through your grief

1171
01:07:45,639 --> 01:07:50,119
can also help you connect to yourself again, like connecting

1172
01:07:50,159 --> 01:07:53,760
to the things that we find pleasurable and joyful, like music,

1173
01:07:54,079 --> 01:07:58,639
like books, like drawing, writing, that it's also a way

1174
01:07:58,840 --> 01:08:03,840
to to find that spark again and to accept yourself

1175
01:08:03,880 --> 01:08:06,079
to like. Part of what I think is beautiful about

1176
01:08:06,360 --> 01:08:09,400
what we see in the movie is that it's giving

1177
01:08:10,000 --> 01:08:16,520
It's not just giving Fashion permission to be his more

1178
01:08:16,560 --> 01:08:21,840
authentic self, it's it's actively like encouraging him, like you

1179
01:08:22,039 --> 01:08:27,880
have to go deeper into your authentic self and realize

1180
01:08:27,920 --> 01:08:31,479
that's good enough. That is better than good enough to

1181
01:08:33,039 --> 01:08:38,199
really feel this and get to not get to the

1182
01:08:38,199 --> 01:08:40,359
other side of it, but to start, you know, like

1183
01:08:40,399 --> 01:08:42,439
we're like, I know, we're trying to stay with the

1184
01:08:42,479 --> 01:08:46,239
word recovery, but to start like growing and moving with

1185
01:08:46,399 --> 01:08:51,560
this and yeah, and I just think that part is

1186
01:08:51,640 --> 01:08:55,359
really beautiful. And it also can help too when like

1187
01:08:55,399 --> 01:08:58,960
people have a hard time feeling their feelings, you using

1188
01:08:59,079 --> 01:09:03,199
something more expressed and creative can be a way to

1189
01:09:03,319 --> 01:09:05,760
connect to your feelings where you don't have to like

1190
01:09:06,079 --> 01:09:09,800
talk about them necessarily, which I think can also be

1191
01:09:09,840 --> 01:09:14,279
really helpful for well fully helpful for kids, but anyone

1192
01:09:14,279 --> 01:09:15,920
of any ages. I used to work with teenagers where

1193
01:09:15,960 --> 01:09:19,359
we used to have them bring in songs that they loved,

1194
01:09:19,760 --> 01:09:23,800
like lyrics that they felt really spoke to them about

1195
01:09:23,880 --> 01:09:30,159
their emotions and experiences. And it's amazing how vulnerable those

1196
01:09:30,199 --> 01:09:33,880
exercises can be, especially with like when I used to

1197
01:09:33,920 --> 01:09:36,000
work with a lot of like teenagers that have gone

1198
01:09:36,039 --> 01:09:38,199
through a lot of trauma and they're pretty like have

1199
01:09:38,279 --> 01:09:40,720
a lot of guardedness around them. It was always so

1200
01:09:40,800 --> 01:09:45,119
interesting how vulnerable the songs would be that those kids

1201
01:09:45,119 --> 01:09:48,359
would bring into the program I worked at, and they

1202
01:09:48,359 --> 01:09:52,880
could communicate through those endeavors, but they couldn't find like

1203
01:09:52,960 --> 01:09:58,760
the words themselves. And yet it helps you reconnect with

1204
01:09:58,920 --> 01:10:02,920
like the vulnerable parts of you yourself and reframe those

1205
01:10:02,960 --> 01:10:07,079
vulnerable pieces as a strength, because that's what once again,

1206
01:10:07,359 --> 01:10:09,560
just like talking about the versus the scene of the movie,

1207
01:10:10,199 --> 01:10:13,600
that's also what's hard is that these parts of Sebastian

1208
01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:17,079
I keep saying about him, these parts of Bastian are

1209
01:10:17,159 --> 01:10:20,760
being talked about by his dad, but a lot of

1210
01:10:20,760 --> 01:10:23,279
grown ups, especially in the eighties and these older movies,

1211
01:10:23,279 --> 01:10:26,720
to talk like this, that that kind of like whimsical

1212
01:10:26,880 --> 01:10:33,079
childlike vulnerable, emotional, creative part of him is immature, silly,

1213
01:10:33,680 --> 01:10:36,000
not gonna be helpful in these moments, like trying to

1214
01:10:36,039 --> 01:10:38,760
like squish it in that very way that like adults

1215
01:10:38,760 --> 01:10:42,279
can be. And I think in all our cult our

1216
01:10:42,359 --> 01:10:46,479
culture can be like hyper pragmatic. This very like pragmatism

1217
01:10:46,520 --> 01:10:50,319
is king kind of mentality we can have, and how

1218
01:10:50,319 --> 01:10:52,720
it's reflected in this movie and how the actual message

1219
01:10:52,720 --> 01:10:54,479
of this movie is like and which I try to

1220
01:10:54,520 --> 01:10:56,399
tell clients all the time. I feel like I'm constantly

1221
01:10:56,920 --> 01:11:02,199
trying to help people unlearn learn that idea that like

1222
01:11:02,199 --> 01:11:05,600
it's better to be logical and rational, and emotions are

1223
01:11:05,720 --> 01:11:09,520
for silly, immature gooses, you know, and people who are

1224
01:11:09,560 --> 01:11:12,680
out of control. And so I like that this movie

1225
01:11:12,840 --> 01:11:14,520
is a way to show that, like you, who have

1226
01:11:14,640 --> 01:11:19,920
to go into your emotions and being so pragmatic is

1227
01:11:20,000 --> 01:11:21,680
actually like going in the wrong direction.

1228
01:11:23,239 --> 01:11:30,119
Speaker 4: It's immensely the wrong direction, and we see it over

1229
01:11:30,159 --> 01:11:34,680
and over again in clients and people. It's not until

1230
01:11:34,720 --> 01:11:39,319
they find something that connects them to both sides. They

1231
01:11:39,399 --> 01:11:44,000
must both deal with the gomork and embrace the luck dragon.

1232
01:11:45,039 --> 01:11:50,960
Because the thing that is pursuing you relentlessly is assisting

1233
01:11:51,520 --> 01:11:59,399
the nothing. That's all it does. It's only purpose is

1234
01:11:59,439 --> 01:12:04,159
to pursue you and draw you deeper into the nothing

1235
01:12:05,000 --> 01:12:09,439
to assist it in destroying everything. And it's trying to

1236
01:12:09,479 --> 01:12:14,600
destroy you. That's what the depression does. That self hate

1237
01:12:15,239 --> 01:12:19,399
of your failure tries to pull you into your own darkness,

1238
01:12:20,159 --> 01:12:27,359
so you destroy everything and give up, but expressing it, embracing,

1239
01:12:28,960 --> 01:12:32,800
letting it out instead of letting it pursue you and

1240
01:12:32,920 --> 01:12:35,640
keeping it inside so you can be logical and smart

1241
01:12:35,680 --> 01:12:41,039
and just just do the normal things. It's illogical to

1242
01:12:41,119 --> 01:12:43,520
be sad and to be whimsical and to imagine. But

1243
01:12:45,079 --> 01:12:47,479
when's the last time you put on a logical song

1244
01:12:47,520 --> 01:12:48,239
when you were sad?

1245
01:12:48,600 --> 01:12:52,119
Speaker 2: I know that's right, I know that's fucking right. Yeah.

1246
01:12:52,159 --> 01:12:54,800
Speaker 1: The reasons why so many people and old generations get

1247
01:12:54,800 --> 01:12:57,359
shitfaced and then finally talk about their feelings is because

1248
01:12:57,399 --> 01:13:01,680
they need to talk about their feelings, and that's the

1249
01:13:01,720 --> 01:13:05,920
only way we have been allowed to talk about our feelings.

1250
01:13:06,279 --> 01:13:09,119
Speaker 2: Yeah. But anyway, Hannah author it to you.

1251
01:13:10,600 --> 01:13:13,800
Speaker 3: So as I'm listening to both of you talk about

1252
01:13:13,840 --> 01:13:16,279
the different ways that you do this with clients, I

1253
01:13:16,399 --> 01:13:19,439
was thinking about how when I work with people and

1254
01:13:19,479 --> 01:13:22,680
we talk about grief, I talk about rituals, which I

1255
01:13:22,680 --> 01:13:25,840
feel like is very similar to this in terms of

1256
01:13:26,399 --> 01:13:31,079
having a ritual like on the anniversary, or like just

1257
01:13:31,119 --> 01:13:34,399
having a ritual for yourself on any day, in terms

1258
01:13:34,439 --> 01:13:41,199
of allowing space for the grief, doing something that honors

1259
01:13:41,239 --> 01:13:45,000
that grief, and then doing something that helps you feel

1260
01:13:45,039 --> 01:13:48,439
a little bit more like yourself. And that's a big

1261
01:13:48,520 --> 01:13:53,199
part of when I'm thinking about how I do it.

1262
01:13:53,239 --> 01:13:55,560
That's kind of what I'm doing. I would say, it's

1263
01:13:55,640 --> 01:13:59,680
like I'm using rituals and helping people figure out a

1264
01:13:59,680 --> 01:14:03,560
different way to kind of honor, to honor their grief

1265
01:14:04,039 --> 01:14:06,800
and the love that they felt for this person and

1266
01:14:06,840 --> 01:14:09,319
for them to be able to really feel that and

1267
01:14:09,399 --> 01:14:12,600
really and you do really have to feel it, Like

1268
01:14:12,680 --> 01:14:15,279
I know it's really hard and it's kind of awful,

1269
01:14:15,680 --> 01:14:17,399
but we really do have to feel it.

1270
01:14:17,479 --> 01:14:20,199
Speaker 2: The only way is through is through.

1271
01:14:20,560 --> 01:14:22,479
Speaker 1: And I and I really love what you said about

1272
01:14:22,520 --> 01:14:26,720
the honoring part too, because like so much of the grief,

1273
01:14:26,840 --> 01:14:29,960
so much of grief is love, right yeah, WandaVision, What

1274
01:14:30,079 --> 01:14:33,479
is grief if not love persevering or whatever enduring enduring,

1275
01:14:34,239 --> 01:14:37,880
which is also what we see in this which is

1276
01:14:39,199 --> 01:14:44,520
him honoring his mom by recognizing her name, like by

1277
01:14:44,640 --> 01:14:47,279
just by going into it, and how much resistance we

1278
01:14:47,319 --> 01:14:50,479
see to him just even well because of what we've

1279
01:14:50,439 --> 01:14:52,279
seen in the very game movie, like that he is

1280
01:14:52,840 --> 01:14:56,119
now being taken care of by one person who is

1281
01:14:56,159 --> 01:14:59,119
trying to just like head down, get back to business,

1282
01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:05,760
almost like your mom never existed kind of, And what

1283
01:15:05,800 --> 01:15:09,399
he's been asked to do in this story is that

1284
01:15:09,800 --> 01:15:12,960
you know, your mom was like a beautiful, important person,

1285
01:15:13,000 --> 01:15:14,439
Like when he says, I'm like, I kind of want

1286
01:15:14,439 --> 01:15:17,600
to cry so like when he says, like she had

1287
01:15:17,640 --> 01:15:20,079
such a wonderful name. Like it's him like finally having

1288
01:15:20,079 --> 01:15:23,680
a space to really think about his mom and to

1289
01:15:23,760 --> 01:15:26,760
honor how like precious she was to him, and that

1290
01:15:26,880 --> 01:15:27,920
how much he loved her.

1291
01:15:28,119 --> 01:15:30,239
Speaker 2: And I am crying right now as les we.

1292
01:15:30,800 --> 01:15:34,560
Speaker 1: And yeah, that it allows, like you're saying, it allows

1293
01:15:34,600 --> 01:15:39,439
space to feel not necessarily grief, but feel love. Like

1294
01:15:39,479 --> 01:15:42,560
I think even Andrew Garfield that the actor was on

1295
01:15:42,840 --> 01:15:45,760
he lost his mom not too long ago, and he

1296
01:15:45,880 --> 01:15:48,239
was on the Stephen Colbert Show, the Late Show, and

1297
01:15:48,239 --> 01:15:51,960
he loves to talk about Colbert, and he talks about

1298
01:15:51,960 --> 01:15:53,720
how I just think about my grief is like the

1299
01:15:53,760 --> 01:15:56,079
love I have left over then I'll never get to

1300
01:15:56,119 --> 01:15:58,760
show her, And like that is what this is too.

1301
01:15:58,840 --> 01:16:01,960
Speaker 2: It's like we don't the way that we view, as we've.

1302
01:16:01,800 --> 01:16:04,520
Speaker 1: Talked about before in this podcast, especially in the Midwest,

1303
01:16:04,560 --> 01:16:07,359
as like any unpleasant feelings or bad feelings we shouldn't

1304
01:16:07,359 --> 01:16:08,840
be having and we should try with all of our

1305
01:16:08,920 --> 01:16:11,439
might to ignore them or shut them down or put

1306
01:16:11,439 --> 01:16:14,399
them in a box. And how like what it does

1307
01:16:14,520 --> 01:16:16,680
is such a disservice to moments like this where grief

1308
01:16:16,840 --> 01:16:20,520
is love. Because what I tell clients is if you

1309
01:16:20,560 --> 01:16:23,920
didn't grief for them. That means they weren't that important

1310
01:16:23,920 --> 01:16:26,520
to you. And so this grief that you feel is

1311
01:16:26,560 --> 01:16:31,119
like the cost of admission for loving someone, for someone

1312
01:16:31,199 --> 01:16:32,920
being important to you, Like I talked to a client

1313
01:16:32,920 --> 01:16:36,880
about that earlier today, and so like I think that's

1314
01:16:36,880 --> 01:16:40,720
what's beautiful, Like this story allows him to express not

1315
01:16:40,840 --> 01:16:43,479
just talking about his mom, but also how fucking important

1316
01:16:43,520 --> 01:16:46,159
she is and was to him that like she is

1317
01:16:46,399 --> 01:16:48,920
the lunchpin of this story.

1318
01:16:49,039 --> 01:16:50,960
Speaker 2: Infantation needs her name to survive.

1319
01:16:53,960 --> 01:16:57,399
Speaker 4: Corecked managed to wreck each one of us has managed

1320
01:16:57,439 --> 01:17:01,920
to wreck ourselves today. Good means we're on the right

1321
01:17:01,960 --> 01:17:05,960
path because we're doing the thing we're saying you have

1322
01:17:06,039 --> 01:17:09,880
to do. You have to embrace. It's the things that

1323
01:17:10,039 --> 01:17:15,399
mean the most to you, the things that give you meaning.

1324
01:17:17,079 --> 01:17:20,640
You got to keep those, even that last grain.

1325
01:17:22,479 --> 01:17:25,239
Speaker 1: And I will also say something I wanted to highlight

1326
01:17:25,279 --> 01:17:30,159
in thinking of this story as a way for him

1327
01:17:30,199 --> 01:17:35,159
to work through this stuff, is those also the point

1328
01:17:35,199 --> 01:17:37,800
in the story with a tray you and going through

1329
01:17:37,840 --> 01:17:40,960
the oracle where he has to feel his own worth.

1330
01:17:41,039 --> 01:17:45,399
And I wrote down the line where that scientistic guy says,

1331
01:17:45,680 --> 01:17:48,439
like fancy armor won't help, which I do think is

1332
01:17:49,680 --> 01:17:52,880
a commentary on what we've been talking about with like

1333
01:17:52,920 --> 01:17:56,640
the hyper pragmatism and stuff of like this idea of

1334
01:17:56,720 --> 01:18:00,520
just being like big and tough and I'm feeling doesn't

1335
01:18:00,560 --> 01:18:03,520
save you. What does save you is being your authentic

1336
01:18:03,640 --> 01:18:07,199
self and trusting that you're good enough and that you

1337
01:18:08,680 --> 01:18:13,000
aren't wrong for having your instincts and your emotions.

1338
01:18:13,279 --> 01:18:16,840
Speaker 2: And that's really what a tray you helps bash and

1339
01:18:16,880 --> 01:18:17,319
figure out.

1340
01:18:17,399 --> 01:18:19,560
Speaker 1: Like that's really where his end of the story is too,

1341
01:18:19,600 --> 01:18:24,439
is he has to trust himself and that it is

1342
01:18:24,840 --> 01:18:28,279
that he is right to feel his feelings and that

1343
01:18:28,640 --> 01:18:31,960
his dad isn't necessarily right nope to tell him to

1344
01:18:31,960 --> 01:18:34,640
put his feet on the ground, and like that is

1345
01:18:34,680 --> 01:18:37,359
his trial as well as I have to believe in myself.

1346
01:18:38,199 --> 01:18:40,479
And going back to like the identity part that we

1347
01:18:40,479 --> 01:18:43,560
talked about earlier in the episode, Like that's so important

1348
01:18:44,119 --> 01:18:46,760
for any kid's growth. But I think a kid like

1349
01:18:46,800 --> 01:18:51,159
this whose world gets destroyed as they know it by

1350
01:18:51,159 --> 01:18:55,600
the loss of a parent is finding your feet under

1351
01:18:55,640 --> 01:19:02,039
you too, But not in this like stoic, toxic way, No,

1352
01:19:02,479 --> 01:19:06,279
in this more like I I can embrace I can

1353
01:19:06,319 --> 01:19:10,359
trust myself, and I can trust that my instincts are good,

1354
01:19:11,319 --> 01:19:14,239
and that my feelings are good, and that they come

1355
01:19:14,279 --> 01:19:20,680
from a understandable and reliable place within me.

1356
01:19:21,520 --> 01:19:25,439
Speaker 4: Which is said brilliantly right there. The last thing I

1357
01:19:25,439 --> 01:19:28,039
want to tag onto that is the very end of that.

1358
01:19:29,600 --> 01:19:33,000
Each moment in this story builds upon itself. It's brilliant

1359
01:19:34,439 --> 01:19:37,920
that moment of dealing with the Oracle. The Oracle can

1360
01:19:37,960 --> 01:19:41,239
only hold itself together for so long, but it's crumbling,

1361
01:19:42,800 --> 01:19:46,520
but it's defenses are still active. But once he gots

1362
01:19:46,520 --> 01:19:51,640
through them. The last thing that a tray you has

1363
01:19:51,720 --> 01:19:56,760
to get to happen is that that part Bashian created

1364
01:19:56,800 --> 01:19:58,640
to be a tray you. He creates a tray you

1365
01:19:58,760 --> 01:20:00,520
in the image of something it means some to him.

1366
01:20:00,520 --> 01:20:05,520
That Native American warrior on his book, his book bag Yeah,

1367
01:20:05,920 --> 01:20:09,159
is how he forms betray You's look.

1368
01:20:09,520 --> 01:20:10,600
Speaker 2: Which is so eighties.

1369
01:20:11,000 --> 01:20:13,760
Speaker 1: So eighties, that's what Hannah said, we're watching it. She

1370
01:20:13,840 --> 01:20:16,479
was like the fact that we just had like these

1371
01:20:16,520 --> 01:20:21,319
stereotype imagery of like indigenous people on all of our

1372
01:20:21,359 --> 01:20:25,039
regular stuff. Right, yeah, it's giving Indian in the cupboard.

1373
01:20:25,239 --> 01:20:27,319
Speaker 4: Well it's thirty year cycles, so that would have been

1374
01:20:27,319 --> 01:20:31,680
the fifties, so it makes sense. But where it all

1375
01:20:31,680 --> 01:20:36,359
ties together. From your point, right, is the thing that

1376
01:20:36,479 --> 01:20:40,239
has to happen is that Bastian has to admit that

1377
01:20:40,359 --> 01:20:45,640
he's in the story, the stories about him. He's not

1378
01:20:46,479 --> 01:20:50,720
a passive observer to all the emotional activation that's happening.

1379
01:20:51,079 --> 01:20:55,640
He fed himself with sandwiches his dad maiden.

1380
01:20:56,199 --> 01:20:58,680
Speaker 1: I think he made those because they were like that

1381
01:20:58,720 --> 01:21:00,439
loaf of bread was next to him on the table.

1382
01:21:00,439 --> 01:21:01,000
Speaker 2: I clocked that.

1383
01:21:01,279 --> 01:21:06,239
Speaker 4: Maybe maybe right, okay, but his dad bought for him.

1384
01:21:06,600 --> 01:21:07,279
Speaker 2: Sure, wonderful.

1385
01:21:07,319 --> 01:21:10,239
Speaker 4: And then he made himself Yeah wonder Bretter from the

1386
01:21:10,279 --> 01:21:13,640
eighties with Gooper Gray. But he had to admit he's

1387
01:21:13,640 --> 01:21:17,800
in the story. He is the story. That expressive connection

1388
01:21:19,000 --> 01:21:23,520
to the media can't happen until you realize all stories

1389
01:21:23,560 --> 01:21:27,520
are about me, and I'm just connecting to something without

1390
01:21:27,600 --> 01:21:30,479
my armor in the way. And I won't get the

1391
01:21:30,520 --> 01:21:33,239
meaning of the story until I lower my armor, feel

1392
01:21:33,239 --> 01:21:37,520
my own worth and realize I and what this story

1393
01:21:37,600 --> 01:21:42,640
is about. It's my story told a different way. That's

1394
01:21:42,680 --> 01:21:45,359
why it matters. That's why I have to name the

1395
01:21:45,399 --> 01:21:49,960
Empress a tray. You can't do it for Bastian. Bastian

1396
01:21:50,119 --> 01:21:51,199
has to do it for a tray.

1397
01:21:51,279 --> 01:21:53,239
Speaker 1: You Yeah, kind of like in therapy where at a

1398
01:21:53,279 --> 01:21:58,319
certain point the client has to start answering and ask

1399
01:21:58,520 --> 01:22:03,800
asking and answering the questions instead of us supplying answers.

1400
01:22:05,319 --> 01:22:05,560
Speaker 4: Yep.

1401
01:22:07,479 --> 01:22:09,199
Speaker 1: And it's like how And I know this has happened

1402
01:22:09,199 --> 01:22:11,800
to me today because believe it or not, I kind

1403
01:22:11,840 --> 01:22:15,000
of have like a smart ass version of being a therapist.

1404
01:22:15,000 --> 01:22:16,439
And I had this client that was like, I fucking

1405
01:22:16,479 --> 01:22:18,920
know what you're gonna say. I know what you're gonna

1406
01:22:18,920 --> 01:22:20,600
say to one of us, start now. And then I said, well,

1407
01:22:20,640 --> 01:22:22,720
what do you think I'm going to say? And then

1408
01:22:22,720 --> 01:22:26,439
they have to say it themselves, which is harder than

1409
01:22:27,079 --> 01:22:29,159
you know, hearing me say it and then being like, oh,

1410
01:22:29,159 --> 01:22:35,239
well you know, and yeah, sidebar, do you think that

1411
01:22:35,359 --> 01:22:38,920
Ryan Johnson stole that scene for Star Wars Last SHEDI

1412
01:22:39,960 --> 01:22:43,399
where she is to look into her Ray has to

1413
01:22:43,439 --> 01:22:46,600
look at herself in that sort of mirrory thing in

1414
01:22:46,680 --> 01:22:52,000
the cave ish thing that whole on the island. I

1415
01:22:52,039 --> 01:22:53,600
always think of that when I saw that scene, the

1416
01:22:53,640 --> 01:22:56,479
first one was like, this is like not running.

1417
01:22:56,239 --> 01:22:58,760
Speaker 4: Story and it's like Harry Potter and it's like eight

1418
01:22:58,760 --> 01:23:00,000
thousand other things that's true.

1419
01:23:00,119 --> 01:23:01,920
Speaker 2: Looking in a mirror also true.

1420
01:23:01,880 --> 01:23:05,920
Speaker 4: So did he steal it? Or is it a common trope?

1421
01:23:07,079 --> 01:23:12,600
Speaker 2: True? Fair right here and will be right back.

1422
01:23:13,760 --> 01:23:15,560
Speaker 1: So I think the only thing treatment wise I would

1423
01:23:15,560 --> 01:23:17,800
add to the idea if you're actually going to do

1424
01:23:17,840 --> 01:23:20,279
this with a client other than the examples we gave, Like,

1425
01:23:20,359 --> 01:23:25,359
bibliotherapy is the name for this type of therapy where

1426
01:23:25,399 --> 01:23:30,199
you have someone read something that is similar to their

1427
01:23:30,279 --> 01:23:34,159
story and when you're doing like that version of it.

1428
01:23:34,760 --> 01:23:37,479
The way we see in the movie is it allows

1429
01:23:38,439 --> 01:23:42,399
for the person reading it to have a bit of

1430
01:23:42,479 --> 01:23:45,640
removal kind of like what we were just talking about

1431
01:23:46,079 --> 01:23:49,000
that if it's too hard to talk about the grief

1432
01:23:49,119 --> 01:23:54,279
specifically head on, then reading a story of it allows you.

1433
01:23:55,399 --> 01:23:58,960
It just allows like an arm's length of removal from it.

1434
01:23:59,800 --> 01:24:03,840
And the way that like I'm sure you guys do

1435
01:24:03,920 --> 01:24:05,560
this too, and I'm sure people do this in their

1436
01:24:05,560 --> 01:24:07,479
personal life as well, Like what would you tell a

1437
01:24:07,479 --> 01:24:09,920
friend if they told you that story?

1438
01:24:10,079 --> 01:24:13,399
Speaker 2: You know that when we have removal from something too

1439
01:24:13,439 --> 01:24:13,840
long ago.

1440
01:24:13,960 --> 01:24:17,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, when we have removal from something, it allows us

1441
01:24:17,239 --> 01:24:20,479
to have like a clear perspective, but also to feel

1442
01:24:20,600 --> 01:24:27,239
less intimidated and less resistant to the messaging that some

1443
01:24:27,359 --> 01:24:29,479
part of our brain is like I can't handle that yet.

1444
01:24:30,279 --> 01:24:33,600
And so a lot of times, especially with kids, you

1445
01:24:33,640 --> 01:24:37,079
can ease them into an idea with something like reading

1446
01:24:37,079 --> 01:24:39,239
a book. But even adults too, like a lot of

1447
01:24:39,279 --> 01:24:42,359
adults that read, like that's the power of stories is

1448
01:24:42,359 --> 01:24:45,600
that we see ourselves in them, and then that gives

1449
01:24:45,680 --> 01:24:47,560
us inspiration. And so I think what I love about

1450
01:24:47,560 --> 01:24:49,920
this version of bibliotherapy is it's like, if you think

1451
01:24:49,960 --> 01:24:54,600
about with this book, is that it allows a narrative

1452
01:24:55,520 --> 01:24:57,800
that is touching upon all the feelings and giving them

1453
01:24:57,880 --> 01:25:00,840
names and ideas. And this is something where if I

1454
01:25:00,880 --> 01:25:02,960
was doing, if I was working with bashion and we

1455
01:25:02,960 --> 01:25:04,960
were looking at this, we were reading this book together,

1456
01:25:06,000 --> 01:25:08,640
maybe we would talk about the nothing. Maybe that's the

1457
01:25:08,680 --> 01:25:10,800
way that we would talk about the sadness and depression.

1458
01:25:10,800 --> 01:25:13,520
Those words might be a little too especially in the eighties,

1459
01:25:14,159 --> 01:25:17,039
a little too flibberty gibber you know what I mean,

1460
01:25:17,079 --> 01:25:22,159
Like like they don't like we're still yeah, we're still

1461
01:25:22,159 --> 01:25:25,239
in the very early stages of like mental health being

1462
01:25:25,920 --> 01:25:30,239
mental health being something that's talked about in like layman conversations.

1463
01:25:31,000 --> 01:25:33,920
And so I think then, but even with kids in general, though,

1464
01:25:34,279 --> 01:25:36,560
using these terms that they understand so like the nothing

1465
01:25:36,640 --> 01:25:39,279
is such like a visceral idea that I think a

1466
01:25:39,359 --> 01:25:42,880
kid could wrap their head around versus talking about depression

1467
01:25:43,279 --> 01:25:45,000
existential is of grief.

1468
01:25:45,119 --> 01:25:46,680
Speaker 2: Like all these high.

1469
01:25:46,479 --> 01:25:49,680
Speaker 1: Falutin ideas right, too much for kids abstract, and so

1470
01:25:49,720 --> 01:25:53,239
the nothing and these ideas make it more specific and

1471
01:25:53,319 --> 01:25:57,640
concrete and visceral. A kid can grab onto these ideas

1472
01:25:58,199 --> 01:26:00,840
and so it can get give you a language like

1473
01:26:00,880 --> 01:26:02,880
doing something to bibilio with therapy can also give you

1474
01:26:03,000 --> 01:26:08,000
a language with your client that can feel less confrontational

1475
01:26:08,159 --> 01:26:14,800
or less clinical than using the more psychological terms.

1476
01:26:15,119 --> 01:26:19,760
Speaker 4: Right, you can walk them through, yeah, archetypes and existentialism,

1477
01:26:19,840 --> 01:26:23,039
But if their armor isn't ready to be in the

1478
01:26:23,159 --> 01:26:26,760
experience yet, it's our job as therapists to get them

1479
01:26:26,880 --> 01:26:32,079
through their journey, to lower their defenses enough to realize

1480
01:26:32,079 --> 01:26:37,880
that the speech with Joker in the dark Knight comes true.

1481
01:26:38,159 --> 01:26:41,840
Nothing to do with all that string.

1482
01:26:42,760 --> 01:26:47,399
Speaker 2: Or your clients. Eight. Like when I used to up

1483
01:26:47,439 --> 01:26:48,319
a little little kid.

1484
01:26:48,319 --> 01:26:51,399
Speaker 1: Like Bruce Wayne, I fucking wish and then I would

1485
01:26:51,399 --> 01:26:53,319
stop as Batman shit before it ever started.

1486
01:26:53,359 --> 01:26:54,000
Speaker 2: I know that's right?

1487
01:26:54,640 --> 01:26:56,640
Speaker 4: Like, are you saying this is the never ending story.

1488
01:26:56,399 --> 01:26:59,640
Speaker 1: We're dressing up, like that's babe, what's happening here? He

1489
01:26:59,680 --> 01:27:04,800
needs like motherfucker, but all I see his bats. But

1490
01:27:06,119 --> 01:27:08,000
with something when you work with kids, though, like so

1491
01:27:08,079 --> 01:27:09,840
much of that too is you're trying to find a

1492
01:27:09,880 --> 01:27:14,039
shared language that they understand, and so using things like

1493
01:27:14,119 --> 01:27:18,000
stories with little kids is such a great way to

1494
01:27:18,399 --> 01:27:22,479
almost create like a glossary of words for things. Because

1495
01:27:22,520 --> 01:27:24,399
I've like when you work with little kids, like I

1496
01:27:24,439 --> 01:27:26,399
remember I had this little girl I worked with Instead

1497
01:27:26,399 --> 01:27:28,760
of saying eye contact, she would say looking contact, Like

1498
01:27:28,800 --> 01:27:31,800
you really have to learn how to speak their language,

1499
01:27:32,039 --> 01:27:35,199
and things like stories and books can be such a

1500
01:27:35,199 --> 01:27:38,199
great way to speak their language and also to help

1501
01:27:38,279 --> 01:27:41,000
like teach these ideas and teach like empathy and like

1502
01:27:41,159 --> 01:27:44,000
open kids' minds to ideas because the world is still

1503
01:27:44,079 --> 01:27:47,239
so new to them and so with so with Bashan

1504
01:27:47,319 --> 01:27:49,560
even like reading this book, maybe it's the first time

1505
01:27:49,640 --> 01:27:54,319
he's seen something like his experience anywhere else, And so

1506
01:27:54,359 --> 01:27:57,880
it can also give you that universality component that like

1507
01:27:57,920 --> 01:28:00,560
group therapy can give or peer therapy he can give.

1508
01:28:00,800 --> 01:28:01,039
Speaker 4: Mm h.

1509
01:28:01,600 --> 01:28:05,520
Speaker 1: And yeah, so I think that it's something that we

1510
01:28:05,600 --> 01:28:08,760
can definitely always use more of, and we don't need

1511
01:28:08,840 --> 01:28:10,720
to shy away from, Like when I talk about movies

1512
01:28:10,720 --> 01:28:14,800
with clients and talk about TV shows, like the amount

1513
01:28:14,840 --> 01:28:16,960
of times like that stuff comes up. And if you're

1514
01:28:17,000 --> 01:28:19,119
watching us talk, you might think we're just like shooting

1515
01:28:19,119 --> 01:28:23,760
the shit, but really you can really use those things

1516
01:28:23,960 --> 01:28:29,000
as an intervention to talk about some really intense stuff.

1517
01:28:29,000 --> 01:28:30,560
And more often than not, when a client brings up

1518
01:28:30,560 --> 01:28:32,479
a TV show or a movie to me, even if

1519
01:28:32,479 --> 01:28:35,479
they're just trying to like chitchat about it, more often

1520
01:28:35,520 --> 01:28:38,399
than not there's something in that, Oh yeah, that does

1521
01:28:38,479 --> 01:28:40,760
connect with what we're talking about, And I'd be like, interesting,

1522
01:28:40,840 --> 01:28:42,119
have you ever thought to da da da? And then

1523
01:28:42,119 --> 01:28:43,840
we're a Sometimes they get annoyed with that. They're like, oh,

1524
01:28:43,920 --> 01:28:45,359
can I just talk about a movie with you? Why

1525
01:28:45,359 --> 01:28:47,600
does it have to turn into this? And I'm like, Sonny,

1526
01:28:48,800 --> 01:28:51,119
but no, I think like this is just a really

1527
01:28:51,159 --> 01:28:55,520
great example of how you can apply this idea to therapy,

1528
01:28:56,039 --> 01:28:57,560
especially if you're working with kids.

1529
01:28:57,600 --> 01:29:00,319
Speaker 2: But like we were saying, it can be of any age.

1530
01:29:02,199 --> 01:29:05,880
Speaker 4: It can and adding out to Britney's ideas here, like

1531
01:29:06,840 --> 01:29:10,079
looking at how we can help kids tell a different

1532
01:29:10,119 --> 01:29:13,319
story after you embrace the one you don't want to,

1533
01:29:13,399 --> 01:29:16,760
or that you've been avoiding. You create this distance to

1534
01:29:17,359 --> 01:29:20,279
connect to the realness. And it's even better to let

1535
01:29:20,439 --> 01:29:23,760
kids tell you the stuff they're attaching to. I literally

1536
01:29:23,800 --> 01:29:27,279
had this supervision session with my current match of baby therapists,

1537
01:29:28,439 --> 01:29:30,600
and they have some kids who they're struggling with, and

1538
01:29:30,720 --> 01:29:34,079
like I was very encouraged by their development and hearing

1539
01:29:34,079 --> 01:29:37,880
them say, you know, like, yeah, I've been going home

1540
01:29:37,880 --> 01:29:40,920
and listening to the things that this difficult client is

1541
01:29:40,960 --> 01:29:43,680
telling me. To listen to the artists that they like,

1542
01:29:44,159 --> 01:29:49,000
the superheroes and characters that they like, because it's helping

1543
01:29:49,119 --> 01:29:51,560
me see how they see themselves.

1544
01:29:52,199 --> 01:29:55,199
Speaker 1: Now, if there's one thing that I guess took from

1545
01:29:55,199 --> 01:29:58,640
grad school by my advisor, who was one of the

1546
01:29:58,640 --> 01:30:02,960
og play therapists, doctor Fry, is if you're gonna work

1547
01:30:02,960 --> 01:30:07,359
with kids, you have to give a shit about shouldn't

1548
01:30:07,399 --> 01:30:09,680
say like that, but you have to get invested in

1549
01:30:09,760 --> 01:30:13,800
what they're watching listening to that is their world, Like

1550
01:30:13,960 --> 01:30:18,199
that is the way that they communicate. And you have

1551
01:30:18,279 --> 01:30:20,239
to treat tickets seriously too.

1552
01:30:20,640 --> 01:30:26,000
Speaker 4: And kids learn through play, and they learn through vicarious learning,

1553
01:30:26,079 --> 01:30:31,319
and someone else, once removed, can tell them their story

1554
01:30:32,119 --> 01:30:34,800
before they can tell it to themselves, and they need

1555
01:30:34,840 --> 01:30:37,359
to see it and believe it. And it can't be

1556
01:30:37,439 --> 01:30:41,720
the parent. It needs to be the hero, the infallible

1557
01:30:41,800 --> 01:30:46,840
hero who fails, who loses everything. That's why Disney kills

1558
01:30:46,880 --> 01:30:51,079
the parents every time. So the kid creates empathy for

1559
01:30:51,119 --> 01:30:55,199
the story. And then where we can build on that

1560
01:30:55,319 --> 01:30:58,239
is through narrative therapy, whereas is where you have them

1561
01:30:58,359 --> 01:31:01,800
write their own story, and that can be done in

1562
01:31:01,840 --> 01:31:05,920
a great many ways, where you can have them literally

1563
01:31:06,000 --> 01:31:09,920
rewrite what actually happened, or with kids, you might need

1564
01:31:09,920 --> 01:31:12,239
to have them write their own hero story where you

1565
01:31:12,279 --> 01:31:15,640
don't even directly say it, or you don't directly do it.

1566
01:31:15,640 --> 01:31:19,640
It's what separates some of the other expressive therapies from

1567
01:31:19,680 --> 01:31:24,119
each other. A psychodrama is probably best for adults, where

1568
01:31:24,119 --> 01:31:27,479
you're having people really play out the actual story and

1569
01:31:27,520 --> 01:31:31,199
then swap parts. You're in a group therapy setting and

1570
01:31:31,239 --> 01:31:35,439
you pick out the person. Okay, your energy most reminds

1571
01:31:35,479 --> 01:31:37,640
me of my dad, who's the antagonist of this scene.

1572
01:31:37,880 --> 01:31:39,720
So I need you to play my dad, and this

1573
01:31:39,760 --> 01:31:41,880
is what you say. I'm going to swap places with

1574
01:31:41,960 --> 01:31:44,039
you and show you what my dad did. Then I

1575
01:31:44,079 --> 01:31:46,079
want you to carry that energy and be my dad

1576
01:31:46,399 --> 01:31:49,359
and then I'm gonna say something different to him, and

1577
01:31:49,399 --> 01:31:51,920
you play that out and you release it, and you

1578
01:31:52,039 --> 01:31:54,560
let go of that warrior that to tray you inside

1579
01:31:54,600 --> 01:31:57,079
of you. You formed to deal with that and at

1580
01:31:57,119 --> 01:32:01,560
the same time simultaneously realize that warrior is you. Fucking

1581
01:32:01,720 --> 01:32:06,479
brilliant therapy, but hard, hard, hard, hard to get people

1582
01:32:06,520 --> 01:32:10,119
to comply with it because it's raw. But sometimes you

1583
01:32:10,119 --> 01:32:14,239
can do that same exercise with pen and paper.

1584
01:32:15,359 --> 01:32:16,000
Speaker 2: Well, I'm with kids.

1585
01:32:16,039 --> 01:32:19,359
Speaker 1: It could also be like the stereotype of a dollhouse

1586
01:32:20,920 --> 01:32:24,079
and having you know, playing with toys with a kid

1587
01:32:24,920 --> 01:32:28,279
being in the sand tray, if you will, like exploring

1588
01:32:28,600 --> 01:32:31,319
and letting a kid like tell you stories through like

1589
01:32:31,359 --> 01:32:33,079
animals and stuff like that.

1590
01:32:33,520 --> 01:32:40,039
Speaker 4: Right, how did the fox get away from the hawk? Oh?

1591
01:32:40,199 --> 01:32:42,319
How did the fox deal with this? What did the

1592
01:32:42,319 --> 01:32:44,560
fox do all? Whatever it is?

1593
01:32:45,920 --> 01:32:47,600
Speaker 2: Or even just like show me a family.

1594
01:32:47,960 --> 01:32:48,159
Speaker 4: Right.

1595
01:32:48,920 --> 01:32:50,439
Speaker 1: I used to work with a kid who went through

1596
01:32:50,479 --> 01:32:53,439
like insane kind of like the worst case scenarios with

1597
01:32:53,520 --> 01:32:57,199
abuse before I worked with her, and she used to

1598
01:32:57,239 --> 01:32:59,119
like play out this whole thing with like these little

1599
01:32:59,359 --> 01:33:02,760
plastic pigs we had, where like the mama pig was

1600
01:33:02,760 --> 01:33:06,079
always like beating up on the mayby pigs, and so

1601
01:33:06,119 --> 01:33:07,920
we would do a lot of like, okay, what happened?

1602
01:33:07,960 --> 01:33:08,560
Speaker 2: What could have happened?

1603
01:33:08,560 --> 01:33:10,840
Speaker 1: Differently, we have like how can we take care of

1604
01:33:10,920 --> 01:33:14,720
the pigs and stuff? And so, yeah, it's really and

1605
01:33:15,239 --> 01:33:19,800
kids can like access that. Kids are always kids are

1606
01:33:19,840 --> 01:33:22,720
like play, like mister Rogers says, play is very serious

1607
01:33:22,800 --> 01:33:30,680
to children's serious business and kids are always processing to

1608
01:33:30,680 --> 01:33:32,640
a certain extent through play.

1609
01:33:33,880 --> 01:33:42,520
Speaker 4: Always. Should we take our last break there, then well

1610
01:33:42,560 --> 01:33:44,560
we'll start with final thoughts here, and I guess we'll

1611
01:33:44,600 --> 01:33:46,600
start with Hannah.

1612
01:33:46,840 --> 01:33:51,640
Speaker 3: Okay, I probably haven't seen this movie in thirty years

1613
01:33:52,760 --> 01:33:58,319
and barely remembered any of it, to be completely honest,

1614
01:33:58,399 --> 01:33:59,960
Like I was like, oh, I don't remember this part.

1615
01:34:00,000 --> 01:34:01,119
Speaker 2: I don't remember this part.

1616
01:34:01,960 --> 01:34:06,520
Speaker 3: And it still felt the same way in my body

1617
01:34:07,039 --> 01:34:09,640
watching it as I did when I was a girl.

1618
01:34:09,960 --> 01:34:21,520
Speaker 2: Interesting and the and like the softness of the empress. Yeah,

1619
01:34:21,680 --> 01:34:24,279
and it like is so.

1620
01:34:25,960 --> 01:34:27,560
Speaker 3: I don't know if it was all the makeup they

1621
01:34:27,560 --> 01:34:30,640
put on that little girl which was so much makeup

1622
01:34:31,760 --> 01:34:33,760
or what it was, but like there was a or

1623
01:34:33,800 --> 01:34:36,359
if just she's just a good little actress, like in

1624
01:34:36,439 --> 01:34:39,600
terms of being able to really feel the warmth of

1625
01:34:39,640 --> 01:34:44,159
her and the warmth that we know that now Bashan

1626
01:34:44,279 --> 01:34:45,359
can have access to.

1627
01:34:46,680 --> 01:34:49,319
Speaker 2: And so I really love this movie.

1628
01:34:49,560 --> 01:34:51,520
Speaker 3: I think talking about it today made me love it

1629
01:34:51,560 --> 01:34:56,800
even more and I will definitely I probably will actually

1630
01:34:56,880 --> 01:34:59,199
watch this movie again, even though I hadn't seen it

1631
01:34:59,239 --> 01:35:06,319
in thirty years, because I feel like there's so much

1632
01:35:06,359 --> 01:35:10,039
goodness in there. There's so many different beautiful things that

1633
01:35:10,039 --> 01:35:13,800
we just don't see portrayed that way, especially when we're

1634
01:35:13,800 --> 01:35:17,359
talking about children. So I really appreciate this film. I'm

1635
01:35:17,359 --> 01:35:22,159
really glad that this film exists. And yeah, and I'm

1636
01:35:22,800 --> 01:35:25,439
I will definitely watch it again and really let myself

1637
01:35:25,479 --> 01:35:28,239
cry this time because I was really focused in on

1638
01:35:28,279 --> 01:35:29,920
what to talk about for the podcast.

1639
01:35:31,119 --> 01:35:34,800
Speaker 4: Yep, the Stages of Grief was one hand idea, and

1640
01:35:34,840 --> 01:35:36,720
I don't think either me or Brittany saw it that

1641
01:35:36,760 --> 01:35:40,479
way until Hannah said it. So the kudos of brilliance

1642
01:35:40,520 --> 01:35:46,119
on that belongs to Hannah. Thank you, Brittany, you want

1643
01:35:46,159 --> 01:35:46,760
to go next.

1644
01:35:47,039 --> 01:35:48,039
Speaker 2: I love this movie.

1645
01:35:48,159 --> 01:35:50,199
Speaker 1: I appreciate it more and more the older I get

1646
01:35:50,479 --> 01:35:54,920
and the more I get into my therapist career. It's,

1647
01:35:55,159 --> 01:35:58,680
like I said, it takes kids so seriously, which I

1648
01:35:58,720 --> 01:36:03,000
always respect I also just freaking love the practical effects.

1649
01:36:03,520 --> 01:36:07,840
Let's get into practical effects again. Put Lee's I'm sick

1650
01:36:07,880 --> 01:36:11,119
of CGI. I'm sick of seeing it. And because there's

1651
01:36:11,159 --> 01:36:16,359
something so grounded about this movie. When you can tell

1652
01:36:16,399 --> 01:36:22,000
that it's like practical effects, practical puppets, it makes it

1653
01:36:22,039 --> 01:36:26,760
so that it ages decently and it feels just realer,

1654
01:36:27,000 --> 01:36:29,359
like you can tell that you can reach out and

1655
01:36:29,399 --> 01:36:34,239
touch all of these characters, no matter how like whimsical

1656
01:36:34,279 --> 01:36:37,359
and out there they look. And yeah, so I really

1657
01:36:37,439 --> 01:36:39,920
appreciate it now it's talking about it. I think what's

1658
01:36:39,960 --> 01:36:41,920
interesting about talking about it is we didn't really touch

1659
01:36:42,000 --> 01:36:44,319
upon the things we talked about, very different things that

1660
01:36:44,359 --> 01:36:46,720
I thought we would talk about when I wanted to

1661
01:36:46,840 --> 01:36:49,039
put this movie on our list, And that was really

1662
01:36:49,079 --> 01:36:52,279
cool and really makes me respect how.

1663
01:36:53,680 --> 01:36:55,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, how deep this movie is.

1664
01:36:55,319 --> 01:36:57,000
Speaker 1: And I really do want to read the book now

1665
01:36:57,439 --> 01:36:59,920
and see what the book is like, especially because the

1666
01:37:00,000 --> 01:37:03,000
this movie only covers the first half of the book,

1667
01:37:04,079 --> 01:37:05,840
so I'm really curious what the.

1668
01:37:05,760 --> 01:37:06,840
Speaker 2: Whole story is like.

1669
01:37:08,680 --> 01:37:11,079
Speaker 1: But yeah, and I think the Empress was supposed to

1670
01:37:11,159 --> 01:37:15,640
be like, uh, she's supposed to be like a thousands

1671
01:37:15,680 --> 01:37:17,199
of years old, so I think it's what they were

1672
01:37:17,199 --> 01:37:19,359
trying to do is like create that gravitas, like you

1673
01:37:19,399 --> 01:37:22,359
were saying, which is amazing that that kid pulled that off.

1674
01:37:23,640 --> 01:37:25,920
Speaker 2: But yeah, I love this movie. I'll watch this movie again.

1675
01:37:26,640 --> 01:37:29,000
Speaker 1: I'll try to figure out hold my nieces and nephews

1676
01:37:29,039 --> 01:37:31,560
need to be before I put this movie onto them,

1677
01:37:32,000 --> 01:37:33,880
just because it can be so intense. But also I

1678
01:37:33,880 --> 01:37:36,600
think this movie does a good job of it's not

1679
01:37:36,720 --> 01:37:41,039
so heavy handed with like the mom grief stuff that

1680
01:37:41,720 --> 01:37:43,479
I think at each age you watch it, you just

1681
01:37:43,479 --> 01:37:48,800
pick up different things, and so it doesn't necessarily feel

1682
01:37:48,840 --> 01:37:51,159
like you can be like too young to watch it necessarily.

1683
01:37:51,399 --> 01:37:52,600
Speaker 4: Five is the recommendation.

1684
01:37:52,920 --> 01:37:57,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can see that for sure, as I looked it.

1685
01:37:56,960 --> 01:37:58,880
Speaker 4: Up before I exposed my seven year old to it.

1686
01:37:59,720 --> 01:38:01,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, but like I said, this movie doesn't get so

1687
01:38:02,199 --> 01:38:05,960
aggressive with like dead mom, dead mom, even though that's.

1688
01:38:05,880 --> 01:38:08,199
Speaker 2: What it's about. Like I could very younger.

1689
01:38:08,239 --> 01:38:11,000
Speaker 1: You're probably just picking up on like the silly, whimsical

1690
01:38:11,039 --> 01:38:14,319
aspects of it. I guess the dead horse thing is

1691
01:38:14,359 --> 01:38:15,920
kind of crazy. You do want to have your kids

1692
01:38:15,920 --> 01:38:17,560
be old enough to watch that dead horse scene.

1693
01:38:17,800 --> 01:38:19,560
Speaker 4: Wolf take a shit out of me as a kid.

1694
01:38:19,840 --> 01:38:28,239
Oh yeah, your comments are brilliant. So I love this movie.

1695
01:38:28,359 --> 01:38:32,119
I've always loved this movie. I feel like, thinking back,

1696
01:38:32,199 --> 01:38:34,319
kind of my memories of this movie is this movie

1697
01:38:35,359 --> 01:38:39,560
always found me on the days you needed it most.

1698
01:38:40,520 --> 01:38:45,600
It never you'd watch the same series of cartoons on

1699
01:38:45,680 --> 01:38:49,119
Saturday morning and then to be a rainy day and

1700
01:38:49,159 --> 01:38:51,439
what's up at the one o'clock slot after all the

1701
01:38:51,439 --> 01:38:54,960
Saturday morning cartoons are done and there's nowhere to go,

1702
01:38:55,680 --> 01:38:59,640
nobody to play with, nothing to do, never any stories on.

1703
01:39:00,319 --> 01:39:02,159
Speaker 1: I do like the idea that there's like a TV

1704
01:39:02,279 --> 01:39:05,760
network programmer somewhere in that time that was like, there's

1705
01:39:05,760 --> 01:39:08,119
a kid that's going to need this tomorrow, put it

1706
01:39:08,159 --> 01:39:08,640
on the slot.

1707
01:39:10,159 --> 01:39:13,680
Speaker 4: And the cable channel would have been local at that time,

1708
01:39:15,119 --> 01:39:21,880
so that's plausible and it would make sense. But it

1709
01:39:21,920 --> 01:39:25,079
always felt like kind of magical to be on that

1710
01:39:25,239 --> 01:39:28,000
day that it sucks, and there's always one I always

1711
01:39:28,039 --> 01:39:31,159
sat and watched every time, through all the commercials and everything,

1712
01:39:31,159 --> 01:39:33,159
I've always watched this. I'd always love this movie. I've

1713
01:39:33,199 --> 01:39:36,479
always appreciated, but I feel like after sitting and really

1714
01:39:36,920 --> 01:39:39,399
breaking it apart and think about it, I appreciated a

1715
01:39:39,520 --> 01:39:43,239
thousand times more and It's one that I thought would

1716
01:39:43,279 --> 01:39:48,199
fade to time, but it should never fade to time.

1717
01:39:49,319 --> 01:39:54,600
This is brilliant. This film is brilliant. And even though

1718
01:39:54,640 --> 01:39:56,439
my kid was a bit of a turd when I

1719
01:39:56,520 --> 01:40:00,399
was asking her how she felt about it today, because

1720
01:40:00,439 --> 01:40:02,520
that's how she is, because I wanted the answer, so

1721
01:40:02,560 --> 01:40:04,640
she wasn't going to give it to me because just

1722
01:40:04,640 --> 01:40:08,960
just her humor. But I could see in her eyes

1723
01:40:09,039 --> 01:40:12,319
and her behavior when she's into something. She sits and

1724
01:40:12,399 --> 01:40:14,920
asks me a thousand questions. It's adorable and I love it.

1725
01:40:15,279 --> 01:40:17,000
She like snuggles up to me and watches it with

1726
01:40:17,039 --> 01:40:19,279
me and asks me like questions about every single scene.

1727
01:40:19,720 --> 01:40:21,840
What's going to happen, Who's happening to this, what's happening here?

1728
01:40:21,840 --> 01:40:26,079
Who's that She loved it. She loved it, and I

1729
01:40:26,119 --> 01:40:29,000
loved it, and I think it really resonates. And I

1730
01:40:29,039 --> 01:40:31,880
want to share something that I was messaging my buddy

1731
01:40:32,479 --> 01:40:34,680
because he's messaging me about something else, and I responded

1732
01:40:34,680 --> 01:40:36,399
to him here even once we're recording, and I told

1733
01:40:36,479 --> 01:40:40,640
him about the the realization about our tacks being dad.

1734
01:40:41,720 --> 01:40:43,680
And I'm going to read this quote that he sent

1735
01:40:43,760 --> 01:40:47,760
me because it made me laugh really hard. And told

1736
01:40:47,760 --> 01:40:50,720
me we're exactly on the right track. I said, bro,

1737
01:40:50,880 --> 01:40:53,079
the horses is dead. Chew on that for a bit

1738
01:40:53,279 --> 01:40:57,640
and I got back, fuck you, Nope, not thinking about

1739
01:40:57,640 --> 01:40:59,920
that tonight. I'm going to bed. Fuck you, you say,

1740
01:41:00,000 --> 01:41:03,479
piatric bitch and stop laughing? Bitch?

1741
01:41:04,720 --> 01:41:07,199
Speaker 2: Hey, what did you mean when you message Bastian?

1742
01:41:07,359 --> 01:41:13,920
Speaker 4: Is me what I mean when I said, Brittany, yes, First,

1743
01:41:13,960 --> 01:41:15,239
I'm gonna ask Hannah, am I wrong?

1744
01:41:17,520 --> 01:41:19,760
Speaker 2: Don't put me into this. I't had nothing to do

1745
01:41:19,800 --> 01:41:20,760
with this. This is now.

1746
01:41:20,800 --> 01:41:22,920
Speaker 1: When Hannah and I were watching it, did I repeatedly

1747
01:41:22,960 --> 01:41:24,479
say wow, I'm just like this kid?

1748
01:41:24,880 --> 01:41:27,239
Speaker 4: Yes? How she did? Dare you though, Brittany?

1749
01:41:27,439 --> 01:41:27,720
Speaker 2: Yes?

1750
01:41:29,399 --> 01:41:30,760
Speaker 4: Because how are you just like that?

1751
01:41:31,000 --> 01:41:34,239
Speaker 2: I scream at books I'm reading while I'm reading them.

1752
01:41:36,560 --> 01:41:37,279
I was telling.

1753
01:41:37,079 --> 01:41:38,880
Speaker 1: Hannah, this is what I looked like when I was

1754
01:41:38,920 --> 01:41:41,119
reading the end of the A Guitar books, just like,

1755
01:41:41,159 --> 01:41:41,720
what the fuck?

1756
01:41:43,279 --> 01:41:45,680
Speaker 2: Getting up, sweating, wogging around.

1757
01:41:46,279 --> 01:41:50,319
Speaker 4: So I'm curious, why is it that you need my

1758
01:41:50,399 --> 01:41:51,600
answer when you already know that.

1759
01:41:52,000 --> 01:41:55,560
Speaker 2: Okay, I already have a therapist. I already a therapist.

1760
01:41:56,439 --> 01:41:59,600
I was just curious if that's what you saw, you know,

1761
01:42:00,600 --> 01:42:01,039
because you.

1762
01:42:03,960 --> 01:42:08,239
Speaker 4: Already knew, Yes, what's her name, Brittany.

1763
01:42:08,520 --> 01:42:13,880
Speaker 1: Moonchild Moonchild, which as a kid, I never figured that out.

1764
01:42:14,920 --> 01:42:17,319
Speaker 4: Same, Yeah, we would have forgotten this. She'd have been

1765
01:42:17,319 --> 01:42:18,720
a childhood like the sixties.

1766
01:42:18,920 --> 01:42:22,199
Speaker 1: Well, no, I think I remember thinking that I didn't

1767
01:42:22,600 --> 01:42:24,279
that you don't hear what he says?

1768
01:42:24,640 --> 01:42:27,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh yeah, I couldn't make sense of it.

1769
01:42:27,600 --> 01:42:27,840
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1770
01:42:27,880 --> 01:42:30,840
Speaker 4: I just literally saw a meme today or maybe two

1771
01:42:30,880 --> 01:42:34,159
days ago. I was like, oh, thank you subtitles for existing,

1772
01:42:35,079 --> 01:42:37,479
because I never knew what he said.

1773
01:42:37,800 --> 01:42:40,159
Speaker 1: Well, I read a piece of trivia that actually what

1774
01:42:40,239 --> 01:42:43,920
he mouths is the German equivalent, which is like moon

1775
01:42:44,199 --> 01:42:47,199
she something like that, but it has three syllables. And

1776
01:42:47,279 --> 01:42:50,159
so what also doesn't help is that so that they

1777
01:42:50,199 --> 01:42:55,079
could do it could work for German and American, is

1778
01:42:55,119 --> 01:42:57,840
they actually have him mouth like the actual like three

1779
01:42:57,880 --> 01:42:59,760
syllable thing, and then they try to use the lightning

1780
01:43:00,640 --> 01:43:03,239
strike to kind of camouflage it, to make it kind

1781
01:43:03,239 --> 01:43:08,039
of ambiguous. What is mouse doing so it purposely confuses us?

1782
01:43:08,960 --> 01:43:12,920
So yeah, that's an assolved mystery, now right.

1783
01:43:12,840 --> 01:43:19,039
Speaker 4: I guess. So, So with that, watch this movie a

1784
01:43:19,079 --> 01:43:23,319
thousand times. It's brilliant. Let your children see it, let

1785
01:43:23,399 --> 01:43:26,520
them take from it what they will but never ever

1786
01:43:26,560 --> 01:43:29,720
lose this one to time. It's the never ending story.

1787
01:43:30,399 --> 01:43:35,920
Speaker 2: Never ending story. That's all I know of the words.

1788
01:43:36,960 --> 01:43:41,880
Speaker 1: AnyWho you can find us to be part of our

1789
01:43:41,920 --> 01:43:44,760
never ending story. You can find us at any social

1790
01:43:44,840 --> 01:43:49,560
media platform except for X at Popcorn Psychology. You can

1791
01:43:49,560 --> 01:43:53,119
find his TikTok, Facebook, Instagram at that handle. You can

1792
01:43:53,159 --> 01:43:55,319
also email us if you would like to tell us

1793
01:43:55,600 --> 01:43:58,279
what movie has traumatized you as a child at popcorn

1794
01:43:58,319 --> 01:44:01,239
Psychology at gmail dot com. As I said up front,

1795
01:44:01,319 --> 01:44:03,960
if you want to show your appreciation, you can do

1796
01:44:04,119 --> 01:44:06,159
so by leaving us a rating interview wherever you listen

1797
01:44:06,199 --> 01:44:10,159
to podcasts, or you can support us monetarily through Patreon

1798
01:44:10,359 --> 01:44:11,880
or to public where you can find merch.

1799
01:44:12,079 --> 01:44:13,000
Speaker 2: But yeah, I hope that you

1800
01:44:13,039 --> 01:44:15,279
Speaker 1: Guys enjoy this episode, and I hope that you can

1801
01:44:15,319 --> 01:44:18,439
hold the whimsy in your heart to help you move

1802
01:44:18,479 --> 01:44:19,359
through your feelings.