Speaker 1: Drama, Darling Drama, Darling Drama, Darling.
Speaker 2: Hi, Friends, and welcome to another Darling Bish Hour with
Speaker 2: our dear friend Amy Phillips. Hi, Amy, friend Melissa Reich, Hi, Hi,
Speaker 2: how are you well?
Speaker 3: I'm doing okay. I have to say this is not
Speaker 3: our normal Kiki time. Even though I know we take
Speaker 3: on some serious topics, this is one that certainly left
Speaker 3: me pretty scarred. I have to say about what we're
Speaker 3: going to discuss, So immediate trigger warning. Melissa will give
Speaker 3: you all those trigger warnings. Momentarily, we may not have
Speaker 3: as many laughs as we normally do.
Speaker 2: Maybe not, although you know I do love an inappropriate giggle.
Speaker 2: But you know, I'm going to try my best, especially
Speaker 2: with the mood that I'm in. My brain is just
Speaker 2: like not firing on all cylinders. But Amy is right.
Speaker 2: So today what we're covering is Maternal Instinct on Netflix,
Speaker 2: which is truly one of the darkest, most horrifying documentaries
Speaker 2: that probably I've ever seen. Me too, which puts it
Speaker 2: in perspective because you know, I'm a true crime girl
Speaker 2: and I watch a lot of true crime, but this
Speaker 2: Maternal Instinct. When I watched it, I felt a really
Speaker 2: important need to cover it, but also knew that it
Speaker 2: would be a challenge. Right, We're not talking we're not
Speaker 2: key keying, we're not talking about housewives and something stupid
Speaker 2: that Alicia said. We're talking about very serious psychological issues here.
Speaker 4: But there's a lot for us to talk about.
Speaker 2: So at the top, I'm going to give a trigger
Speaker 2: warning that we are going to be talking about, oh,
Speaker 2: a lot of things.
Speaker 4: We're going to be talking about murder.
Speaker 2: We're going to be talking about specifically death of an
Speaker 2: infant of a mother, and we're going very very violent,
Speaker 2: very disturbing details. We're going to be talking about personality disorders,
Speaker 2: and you know, I'm going to talk about the difference
Speaker 2: between cluster A, cluster B, cluster C things like that.
Speaker 2: I just encourage people to use their discretion because what
Speaker 2: we're about to cover it, it's no joke.
Speaker 4: This is there's tints.
Speaker 3: I think that any trigger warning that's ever put out there,
Speaker 3: I think that you should just assume that there's a
Speaker 3: trigger warning for this because it really does, you know,
Speaker 3: it covers pretty much everything out there, Yeah.
Speaker 2: From murder to deceit to just things that a regular
Speaker 2: human brain has trouble processing. All of this, which is
Speaker 2: why I feel called to cover it because so many
Speaker 2: people have asked, you know, why and what's going on,
Speaker 2: and so.
Speaker 3: Everybody's talking about everyone seeing it, and it really is,
Speaker 3: I think, like the number one documentary on Netflix right now,
Speaker 3: or at least this week. And I was shocked by
Speaker 3: the end of this because I did not know this story.
Speaker 3: I have to be completely honest with you, I felt
Speaker 3: so sick to my stomach I almost threw up, that's
Speaker 3: how bad. And truly have done very much of a
Speaker 3: deeper dive past this just to find out more answers
Speaker 3: to some of the questions that I had, because the
Speaker 3: documentary can only cover so much and they did a
Speaker 3: great job, so there were a lot of unanswered questions,
Speaker 3: you know, just details here and there. So I did
Speaker 3: do a little investigating with that, and in doing that,
Speaker 3: I know Melissa has covered so much of the clinical
Speaker 3: aspect of it, and I'm going to be posing questions
Speaker 3: to her just from you know, the viewer perspective, the
Speaker 3: pedestrian perspective as to what maybe you guys would be
Speaker 3: asking someone like Melissa, since she's got an amazing background
Speaker 3: and truly has her finger on the pulse of all this,
Speaker 3: so I'm very interested. I think that this was an
Speaker 3: awakening for me on many respects in terms of personality disorders. Yes,
Speaker 3: this was a huge awakening for me to understand what
Speaker 3: this is. And it also became a personal thing for
Speaker 3: me because I know someone who has personality disorders much
Speaker 3: like this, and I never understood how serious that can be,
Speaker 3: and now I feel like I am getting it. So
Speaker 3: for that, that's why I am grateful for these types
Speaker 3: of documentaries and covering these things.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Wow, you know.
Speaker 2: And the thing that I'll say is like everyone experiences
Speaker 2: personality disorders differently, and I look at everything clinically on
Speaker 2: a spectrum from not problematic on one side to pathological
Speaker 2: on the other. And for me, you know, who has
Speaker 2: worked with people in practice treating personality disorders and things
Speaker 2: like that, this case, to me is it's very intense
Speaker 2: and it's like nothing I've ever even watched or seen before.
Speaker 2: So yeah, let's get into it with I'm going to
Speaker 2: share a little bit.
Speaker 4: I'm going to share the synopsis, yes and synopsis yes.
Speaker 2: Also for people listening to this, if you haven't watched
Speaker 2: Maternal Instinct, please know we're about to tell you what happens.
Speaker 2: So there are I don't even to call them spoilers,
Speaker 2: because it's not like this is not like great entertainment,
Speaker 2: right you how to describe it?
Speaker 4: You know what I mean? You're gonna know what happened
Speaker 4: in this story by the end of it.
Speaker 2: I'm about to tell you what happened. So if you
Speaker 2: don't want to know, tune out watch Maternal Instinct and
Speaker 2: come back, okay you or don't watch it, or literally
Speaker 2: don't all yeah and just listen to this because I
Speaker 2: definitely know that there is some people, especially if you've
Speaker 2: struggled with infant loss or child loss, this can be
Speaker 2: very triggering to fox. Yes, yes, the synopsis Netflix. Maternal
Speaker 2: Instinct is a harrowing true crime documentary detailing the twenty
Speaker 2: twenty murder of twenty one year old Reagan Simmons Hancock
Speaker 2: in New Boston, Texas, which, by the way, New Boston,
Speaker 2: Texas is a very small town. I think it was
Speaker 2: like a population of fifteen hundred people. So it's worth
Speaker 2: noting because you know, things like this typically don't happen
Speaker 2: in very but dangerous people live among us, and I
Speaker 2: think that's the scary thing and also important to know
Speaker 2: So continuing with the synopsis, it chronicles the chilling links
Speaker 2: to which Taylor Parker went to maintain an elaborate fake pregnancy,
Speaker 2: which culminated in her brutally murdering Hancock and surgically removing
Speaker 2: her unborn baby.
Speaker 4: To pass off as her own.
Speaker 2: So I'll give you a little bit of the case
Speaker 2: background and then we can start talking a little bit
Speaker 2: about it. So the deception was this woman named Taylor Parker.
Speaker 2: She faked a pregnancy for months to deceive her boyfriend
Speaker 2: Wade Griffin. Her elaborate ruse included fake culture sounds, a
Speaker 2: maternity photoshoot, and a gender reveal party. The crime took
Speaker 2: place in October twenty twenty. Taylor Parker attacked her friend,
Speaker 2: twenty one year old expectant mother, Reagan Simmons Hancock, in
Speaker 2: her home. Taylor Parker murdered Hancock and cut her feetus
Speaker 2: from her womb while her child was in the next bedroom.
Speaker 2: Which I added that because there's another level of pathology
Speaker 2: and antisocial behavior that goes to that this woman killed,
Speaker 2: this woman, cut her baby out and took the baby
Speaker 2: and left the child there just disgusting. And then the
Speaker 2: aftermath was hours later, Parker was pulled over by Texas
Speaker 2: State Police hysterically claiming she had just given birth on
Speaker 2: the side of the road. When they got to the hospital,
Speaker 2: medical professionals quickly determined she had not been pregnant. And
Speaker 2: so with the overview of this documentary is that the
Speaker 2: film uses police bodycam and dash cam footage, hospital interactions,
Speaker 2: and interviews with investigators to piece together Parker's devastating web
Speaker 2: of lies and ensuing police investigation. And what I appreciated
Speaker 2: about this is that rather than sensationalizing Taylor the murderer,
Speaker 2: the documentary really focused in the second half on the victims,
Speaker 2: the victim's family. They interviewed Reagan's mom, her sister, her stepfather,
Speaker 2: and they talked about how they navigated this tragedy. And
Speaker 2: so before we start talking about it, I just wanted
Speaker 2: to say that a lot of true crime docs get
Speaker 2: it wrong. I believe this one really got it right
Speaker 2: in terms of doing right by the victim and you know,
Speaker 2: the family and everything like that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So where should we start, amy, I.
Speaker 3: Think one interesting part of the documentary was that there
Speaker 3: were interviews with all the people that you said, but
Speaker 3: also people that knew Taylor Parker when she was younger,
Speaker 3: and they were the ones who were aware of how dangerous,
Speaker 3: or maybe not so dangerous as they could have ever anticipated,
Speaker 3: but they were aware that she put on fake personalities.
Speaker 3: She would adapt to other people's stories and them her own.
Speaker 3: She was a pathological liar. She was constantly saying there
Speaker 3: was there were things that were wrong with her. She
Speaker 3: was saying that she had cancer, that she had a stroke,
Speaker 3: that she had ms. She had a multitude of problems
Speaker 3: and issues throughout her life. And so these are some
Speaker 3: of the earlier friends that she had, maybe in middle
Speaker 3: school through high school, that were speaking to that. So
Speaker 3: they knew her very well. They were not in touch anymore.
Speaker 3: So it's interesting to hear their testimonies about her because
Speaker 3: Facebook is a place where they're all watching some of
Speaker 3: this stuff happen, with the pregnancy photos and things like that.
Speaker 3: And the biggest aha was that Taylor Parker couldn't have
Speaker 3: kids anymore because she had a hysterectomy right right.
Speaker 4: And she had been married.
Speaker 2: What's so bizarre about this whole case is that as
Speaker 2: we unravel some of the details, it gets to the
Speaker 2: point where you're like, well, how on earth did she
Speaker 2: expect this to end. And so many people became aware
Speaker 2: of the grift because the friends that you mentioned, Mackenzie
Speaker 2: and Abby were the two friends that were interviewed, and
Speaker 2: to me, they gave the best insight into Taylor. Because
Speaker 2: personality disorders, they're present in childhood, but they really form
Speaker 2: and solidify in early adolescence and early adulthood. And so
Speaker 2: I find it fascinating when before the disorder presents, there's
Speaker 2: behaviors that we see. And the behaviors that Mackenzie and
Speaker 2: Abby talked about were what you mentioned that she had
Speaker 2: always said that one of them said she stayed sick.
Speaker 2: She was sick all the time. She said she had cancer.
Speaker 2: She said, you had MS and she had a hysterectomy.
Speaker 2: So the other people that participated in this Northeast Texas
Speaker 2: Women's House Center and they knew they saw the post,
Speaker 2: but they couldn't break hippo laws. So they were in
Speaker 2: a really tenuous situation right right.
Speaker 3: And the story kind of begins with this, well what
Speaker 3: Taylor always probably wanted, which was this love story of
Speaker 3: being with someone and having a baby. But this is
Speaker 3: Wade who she got with, and that's where the story
Speaker 3: really takes flight before that, and we know nothing much
Speaker 3: about this at all. But she was married twice and
Speaker 3: she has two kids, of which she does not have
Speaker 3: custody of. This takes place in Texas when she met
Speaker 3: this man, Wade. I think they met at a rodeo.
Speaker 3: She said she wanted to they vote for land because
Speaker 3: she claimed that she had oil money.
Speaker 4: Oh my god, yeah, she was an all Heirs, honey.
Speaker 2: Oh, according to her, she was an all Airs. But yeah,
Speaker 2: they met at the twenty nineteen rodeo and she was
Speaker 2: telling Wade and everybody her family was rich and she
Speaker 2: was an heerding well that her grandmother was a multimillionaire
Speaker 2: eight million dollars. And basically she approached Wade and was like,
Speaker 2: here's what I can give you. And then all of
Speaker 2: a sudden, she was buying cars, cattle, side by sides, tractors, which,
Speaker 2: by the way, I know not everyone is going to
Speaker 2: know what those things are, but those things are very
Speaker 2: large pieces of equipment. And one of the biggest early
Speaker 2: red flags was she Taylor bought Wade's mom a car
Speaker 2: and posted it on Facebook.
Speaker 4: Oh she posted that, Okay.
Speaker 2: Yeah, to me, Facebook is a really integral part of
Speaker 2: the story because it is there is a lane of
Speaker 2: Facebook that is like at tension seeking folks who are like,
Speaker 2: you know, something's wrong with me every five seconds, prayers,
Speaker 2: you know, bo fun of me.
Speaker 4: Is, et cetera.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like a grift or paradise on Facebook, if
Speaker 2: I'm being honest, and I think that, and then that
Speaker 2: car the way that she posted on Facebook ended up
Speaker 2: getting repossessed and so weeks.
Speaker 4: Yeah, right right.
Speaker 2: But to your point is that when she met Wade
Speaker 2: and she told him all this stuff and they got together,
Speaker 2: she really didn't see the kids a lot, Like, they
Speaker 2: didn't talk a lot about that.
Speaker 4: And I don't know if.
Speaker 2: Some of the info that you got Amy, some of
Speaker 2: the other background info tells us what happened.
Speaker 3: It doesn't, haven't. I haven't come across any of that.
Speaker 3: But it was very strange to the family that she
Speaker 3: didn't have custody and it was noticed. But only after
Speaker 3: one month of Wade and Taylor dating did she start saying,
Speaker 3: my mother, she's trying to take this money from me.
Speaker 3: She's trying to sabotage my life. She's trying to put
Speaker 3: a hit out on me, she's trying to kill me.
Speaker 3: We'd be safer if we lived with you, Wade. So
Speaker 3: she moved in with Wade. She sold all of her stuff.
Speaker 3: She didn't have a lot of stuff to sell, No,
Speaker 3: she sure didn't. Sure because Wade's mom noticed that Wade's mom.
Speaker 3: There were a couple other people interviewed in this one,
Speaker 3: the mother of Wade, some friends of Wade, a real
Speaker 3: estate agent, and one of Taylor's ex bosses.
Speaker 4: And Reagan's mom right.
Speaker 2: Yes, Reagan's mom, Jessica, her sister, Emily, her stepfather, and
Speaker 2: so they really got a great cross section amazing folks
Speaker 2: to tell the story. It wasn't just like one person's side,
Speaker 2: It was so many people's side.
Speaker 4: It was just so well done, so well done.
Speaker 3: So after she moved in with Wade, this is when
Speaker 3: things really started to escalate, and escalate quickly with the
Speaker 3: lies about all the money. I saw this later that
Speaker 3: she pretended that she had a miscarriage with Wade early on.
Speaker 3: I don't remember hearing that in the documentary. You know,
Speaker 3: I'm not exactly sure if that's true. But then she
Speaker 3: said that she was pregnant and.
Speaker 2: Literally she did not have a uterus or cervix. It
Speaker 2: was removed the doctors that removed it confirmed them. They
Speaker 2: were interviewed, and it was after that that she claimed
Speaker 2: she remembers she went to one of Wade's family members
Speaker 2: who was a chiropractor, and she said, I feel in
Speaker 2: my spirit that I'm pregnant. And I was like, well,
Speaker 2: that'd be the.
Speaker 4: Only place you could feel it, lady, because that's yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: that's nothing going on.
Speaker 3: And when she actually had the hysterectomy, apparently there was
Speaker 3: some trauma that happened where like she had an ectopic pregnancy, yes, yes,
Speaker 3: and she had her tubes tied, okay, right.
Speaker 2: And then she came back because she had pain, and
Speaker 2: they found it was like, despite having whatever surgery she had,
Speaker 2: she had an ectopic pregnancy, which would have been fatal
Speaker 2: if they didn't take care of it. And then she
Speaker 2: also had like a sister or something. It was some
Speaker 2: sort of a real medical thing, not one that she
Speaker 2: made up, because she did make up a lot of
Speaker 2: medical things, which, by the way, you are always going
Speaker 2: to see that in Grifters. There is some form of
Speaker 2: like a people used to call it Munchausen disorder, but
Speaker 2: that was just an inaccurate name. Munchausen interestingly enough, it
Speaker 2: was named after this guy Baron Munchausen who just told
Speaker 2: tall tales. But it's really called factitious disorder, either impost
Speaker 2: on self or impost on others. And it's essentially, you know,
Speaker 2: making things up, making yourself sick, or making up medical records,
Speaker 2: doctor shopping, doctor hopping to try to get the diagnoses
Speaker 2: that you want to have. And this particular characteristic the
Speaker 2: reason I'm pointing it out, it's present in a lot
Speaker 2: of scammers.
Speaker 3: Well, that's interesting, interesting, Okay, it's kind.
Speaker 4: Of a red fly.
Speaker 3: Wow, it just it kind of just go. It's just
Speaker 3: free with with purchase. It just is there with the kid,
Speaker 3: no matter what. That's really interesting.
Speaker 4: I didn't know that. Okay.
Speaker 3: Well, on top of that situation, when she did get
Speaker 3: that a topic pregnancy, she was married at that time,
Speaker 3: I'd believe her second husband, and for some reason maybe
Speaker 3: at the time, she had been under for surgery, but
Speaker 3: they made a decision without her to have a full hysterectomy.
Speaker 3: The husband made that decision for.
Speaker 4: Baby.
Speaker 2: You just okay, that's the last piece of the puzzle
Speaker 2: that I did not understand. Yeah, okay, so the husband
Speaker 2: decided for her. Yes, Oh, and I believe that's correct.
Speaker 3: Now I'm leaving, you know, a little bit of elbow
Speaker 3: room for me being wrong, but that's I know that
Speaker 3: she said that, and I know that that has been
Speaker 3: out there and stated in other publications and things like that.
Speaker 3: So that being said, she currently is using I don't
Speaker 3: know the name that she called it fetal abduction syndrome,
Speaker 3: something like that. I don't know, you might be able
Speaker 3: to tweak the words, but it's something that has to
Speaker 3: do with fetal and syndrome and when you try to
Speaker 3: take someone else's baby. That she is saying that that
Speaker 3: is what she had because of the trauma that she
Speaker 3: experienced with her hysterectomy. Well, of course she's going to say,
Speaker 3: saying in from prison, right of course. And she's also
Speaker 3: saying that being in prison it's like a whole new life.
Speaker 3: She's so glad this happened because now she can try
Speaker 3: and help people and bring awareness to this syndrome. Yeah, Amy,
Speaker 3: oh no, it's it's so messed up. But anyway, getting
Speaker 3: back to we're gonna call some.
Speaker 4: Bull sheet on that number one.
Speaker 2: Also, I'd like to say I survived O Varing cancer
Speaker 2: when I was seventeen and I also woke up to
Speaker 2: people telling me that my things were gone, and I
Speaker 2: was seventeen years old, and I've never tried to steal
Speaker 2: a baby.
Speaker 4: So I'm just saying, well, there you go, and.
Speaker 2: I'm joking and I'm laughing of course, but like I
Speaker 2: since you are understand.
Speaker 3: Person to be able to speak on that, So thank you, Melissa,
Speaker 3: and I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2: Professionally, it's like, I've never you know, gone and try
Speaker 2: to steal a baby or murder anyone. It's just like
Speaker 2: people like her, they'll come up with any excuse for
Speaker 2: why it's not their fault. And we're going to talk
Speaker 2: about this later in terms of like how personality disorder
Speaker 2: is different from mental illness because that is the response
Speaker 2: of someone who is committed to themselves.
Speaker 4: And that's about it. So yes, that's insane. Yeah yeah, okay.
Speaker 3: Well, one of the other things that I found out,
Speaker 3: not in this documentary but in other places is that
Speaker 3: her ex husband contacted Wade and told him that she
Speaker 3: has had a hysterectomy and she cannot have kids. He
Speaker 3: contacted him, and there is a current civil lawsuit for
Speaker 3: Reagan's family suing Wade for basically like willful ignorance because
Speaker 3: of these temps, which is really yeah.
Speaker 2: And so to be clear about what Amy's saying is
Speaker 2: that for people who feel bad for Wade Griffin, everyone
Speaker 2: told him. Mackenzie and Abby they ended up knowing like
Speaker 2: a friend of the family. They told Wade's mother, who
Speaker 2: told Wade that Taylor can't be pregnant, she has had
Speaker 2: a hysterectomy.
Speaker 4: She neglects the children that she.
Speaker 2: Does have, which, by the way, for someone with these problems,
Speaker 2: they don't want the child. They don't want to parent,
Speaker 2: they want like to present a child. But then like,
Speaker 2: parenting is the polar opposite of what they're usually looking for,
Speaker 2: because parenting is, you know, it's not glamorous. You know,
Speaker 2: you don't get attention for the day to day ins
Speaker 2: and outs of tough parenting. She wanted the attention, she
Speaker 2: wanted the spectacle, she wanted the gender reveal and the
Speaker 2: baby stuff, but she didn't actually want.
Speaker 4: To raise a child, right, right, right.
Speaker 2: But to go back to what I was saying, is
Speaker 2: that Mackenzie and Abbey told Wade. Wade's mother told Wade.
Speaker 2: Corey and Stephanie Ott, who were friends of Wade, told
Speaker 2: Wade they begged him, they pleaded with him, she is
Speaker 2: not pregnant. She is lying, she is making this up.
Speaker 2: And so to your point, there was a lot of
Speaker 2: wilful ignorance and listen.
Speaker 3: And she was wearing this big pregnancy belly and he
Speaker 3: never saw her belly. He never asked to see it,
Speaker 3: or if he did, her excuses were, I don't feel
Speaker 3: comfortable in my body, I'm insecure, and so for literally
Speaker 3: ten months ten ten never forced his way to see
Speaker 3: this actual belly.
Speaker 2: People were talking about that too, because there were photos
Speaker 2: of her that at times she would have this belly
Speaker 2: and at times she wouldn't. But do you want to
Speaker 2: know the one really interesting piece, Amy, while I'm thinking
Speaker 2: of it, if you notice something Taylor Parker in every
Speaker 2: picture that they show of her, she looks different.
Speaker 3: Did you know that, Alissa? I was going to say
Speaker 3: the same thing. I have been dying to talk to
Speaker 3: you about this. I can't figure out her face or
Speaker 3: what she looks like. And that to me is the
Speaker 3: most bizarre part, considering that she isn't the person you
Speaker 3: think she is. Every single photo, every mugs, everyone, every video.
Speaker 4: Everything, it's like not the same person.
Speaker 2: What is that I'm being very mindful of how I
Speaker 2: say things here because I want to be really clear
Speaker 2: about something before I move forward. Is that I am
Speaker 2: not diagnosing Taylor Parker. I am using her case and
Speaker 2: looking at symptomatology almost like a case study, to say,
Speaker 2: here's the disorders that could fit this. I am not
Speaker 2: diagnosing her with anything. I just want to be really clear.
Speaker 2: But what I attribute that to is the fact that
Speaker 2: she had such a distorted sense of self. She had
Speaker 2: no self esteem, no self awareness, no self cut It
Speaker 2: was just so distorted that I believe her disconnect with
Speaker 2: self was so severe that it came across in every
Speaker 2: single picture of her. And we're not joking. Every jail
Speaker 2: interview before she was arrested, after she was arrested, even
Speaker 2: her court appearances, every single time she looks different. And
Speaker 2: I believe that it is indicative of the disorders that
Speaker 2: we're talking about, these these personality problems that are lifelong,
Speaker 2: that are fixed, and you know, our bodies and our
Speaker 2: minds are one.
Speaker 4: And I've never seen this.
Speaker 2: Before real, but it was something I've never seen it
Speaker 2: in person. But it stands to reason that because she
Speaker 2: feasted on other people's lives, because she didn't have her own.
Speaker 2: It's like her friend's. Mackenzie and Abbey said it was
Speaker 2: like she feasted on other people's lives to get more
Speaker 2: information about her grift so she could, like she learned
Speaker 2: from her boss, like who had like a child loss,
Speaker 2: and then she learned from her friend who had a pregnancy,
Speaker 2: and and she just took pieces from these people's lives
Speaker 2: and pasted them together to form her own life, which
Speaker 2: is inherently indicative of personality disordered kind of characteristics. That's
Speaker 2: what I think that is all about.
Speaker 4: Yeah, wow, wow, wow.
Speaker 3: I am so glad you brought it up because I'm thinking,
Speaker 3: am I just the only one seeing this?
Speaker 4: Because this is crazy to me.
Speaker 2: It was so pronounced that I'm going to tell you
Speaker 2: my husband, who is not the most observant fella on
Speaker 2: the planet, you know, straight man, I'm.
Speaker 4: Going to be honest.
Speaker 2: Their perception, their observational skills are a little bit lacking
Speaker 2: no offense. I'm sure I don't know how many straight
Speaker 2: men listen to the show. Maybe there's one. If there's one,
Speaker 2: thank you for being here.
Speaker 4: But you are very perceptive.
Speaker 2: But my husband even said he goes to me. Why
Speaker 2: does she look different in every picture, and I was like, wow,
Speaker 2: even you noticed it, that's pretty good. Yeah, so it's
Speaker 2: pretty significantly Even he noticed it.
Speaker 3: Gosh, that's wild. Okay, well thanks for pointing that out.
Speaker 3: That's nuts.
Speaker 2: So should she did five thousand internet searches based on
Speaker 2: court evidence that they showed a.
Speaker 4: Few of them in the documentary.
Speaker 2: In the documentary, and I wrote some of them down
Speaker 2: because I felt that they were so fascinating, so she
Speaker 2: would go. So Wade was willfully ignorant and because of that,
Speaker 2: I believe these deaths happened, and I believe that they
Speaker 2: were preventable, but he just wasn't. I'm going to be honest.
Speaker 2: I feel like Wade was more interested in the money, yes,
Speaker 2: and trying to have a better life. And listen, I'm
Speaker 2: not judging Wade because there's a piece of it that
Speaker 2: it's like being whatever you want to call it, in
Speaker 2: a lower socioeconomic status, being a hard working, blue collar person.
Speaker 2: I understand that this promise it hooked him in, but
Speaker 2: she did that on purpose. Yes, so Wade is a
Speaker 2: victim too, but unfortunately he engaged in behaviors that it
Speaker 2: muddied those waters a little.
Speaker 3: Do you completely agree, and I think that she chose
Speaker 3: him for a reason. Clearly, he's very ignorant, very dim.
Speaker 3: His reaction not observant, not observant at all, and sent
Speaker 3: to a lot. For example, when he was told in
Speaker 3: the interrogation room by the investigator's police officer that there
Speaker 3: was a murder and that she took the baby, and
Speaker 3: so on and so forth, his reaction was, my parents,
Speaker 3: I should have listened to my family. And it wasn't
Speaker 3: at all like she killed somebody like. It was more
Speaker 3: about I should have listened to my parents. It was
Speaker 3: a very odd reaction, and I know that that's shock
Speaker 3: I would imagine, but even still, I haven't really seen
Speaker 3: a lot of his remorse towards the victim themselves. And
Speaker 3: that was weird, right, That.
Speaker 2: Was weird to me too, And I didn't love that.
Speaker 2: When he was interviewed, he was very a man of
Speaker 2: few words. He didn't show a lot of empathy towards
Speaker 2: the victims. Now that doesn't mean he doesn't feel it.
Speaker 2: He just seems like a man of few words and
Speaker 2: maybe not as expressive as one might expect.
Speaker 3: So it took you know, hold of him later and
Speaker 3: which where he did seem pretty overcome with emotion at
Speaker 3: the end. And he also said, I think it was
Speaker 3: like the last thing in the documentary, which was him saying,
Speaker 3: I think she wanted me to tell her I loved her,
Speaker 3: but I never did.
Speaker 2: Right, And so then you have to ask yourself the question, well,
Speaker 2: what was the endgame and why did she do all
Speaker 2: this for a man that she knew didn't love her.
Speaker 4: But that is the reason, because.
Speaker 2: A healthy individual, right, they wouldn't choose a person who
Speaker 2: wasn't into them. They would say, oh, this person's not
Speaker 2: into me, let me move on into a better relationship.
Speaker 2: But someone with her characteristics, she also has a lot
Speaker 2: of antisocial characteristics, meaning she you know, criminality, like at
Speaker 2: the end of the at the end of the episode,
Speaker 2: we learned that, you know, she had thirty aliases. She
Speaker 2: tried to buy twenty million dollars of real estate, making
Speaker 2: up people like lawyers, bankers and uncle things like that.
Speaker 3: And I just mentioned the Yeah, here's the little dark
Speaker 3: humor for you. So she said that you know she
Speaker 3: had oil money Shell right, So the letters that she
Speaker 3: wrote to the real estate agent on behalf of the
Speaker 3: Shell oil company or the representative who gives her the
Speaker 3: oil royalties.
Speaker 4: Her name was.
Speaker 3: Shelley Shelley, and her lawyer I think his last name
Speaker 3: was like Lawlesson or something lawless.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3: It reminded me of like Arrested Development when he's like,
Speaker 3: I'm bob blah blaw.
Speaker 4: You know, it's just you can't.
Speaker 3: That's how someone like her must keep things straight because
Speaker 3: she can remember her lies because she's making them so
Speaker 3: easy to remember the name. But yes, and you know,
Speaker 3: moving on to your point, she had apps that disguised
Speaker 3: her voice that I mean distorted her voice, that she
Speaker 3: could make these phone calls. She had burner phones, she
Speaker 3: had so many n She had a blocking app that
Speaker 3: where you could block your IP address. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 3: this is where it gets complex. And you think that
Speaker 3: she's just some you know Texan. I mean if you
Speaker 3: were to just you know, slap a you know, an
Speaker 3: empty label on her, you'd just be like, this is
Speaker 3: just some Texas crazy woman. It's like no, Actually, it's
Speaker 3: so layered to inplexities of her diabolical behavior and the
Speaker 3: work that she actually did to pull this all off.
Speaker 3: And Melissa, as we said, this town forty five hundred people.
Speaker 2: No, fifteen hundred, shut up fifteen hundred, fifteen hundred, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: New Boston, Texas fifteen hundred.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's very smoh it's waste fifteen I thought. Okay,
Speaker 3: so the doctors saw her Facebook post. Now that's gonna
Speaker 3: tell you how small this town is. Right if they
Speaker 3: saw her pregnancy photos, shoot you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 4: And they're like, hippa, we can't say anything.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but then people would call, like Wade's family would
Speaker 2: call and they would say, well, we can't give you information,
Speaker 2: but I would trust your gut.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2: That's what Wade's mom and his aunt and some friends like,
Speaker 2: they all got that information and they called every place
Speaker 2: that she claimed to go to, and they all had
Speaker 2: the same thing to say to her.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So it's like everybody knew, but the only person who
Speaker 2: could do anything about it Wade literally until the police
Speaker 2: told him she murdered someone and cut her baby out
Speaker 2: and claimed to be her own it. Literally, it's like
Speaker 2: the light bulb didn't go on, which is just like, oh.
Speaker 4: My gosh, that's insane, not at all.
Speaker 3: She's texting us like she's texting Wade as her mother
Speaker 3: saying oh horrible, faster her push her down the stairs
Speaker 3: so you can be free.
Speaker 4: She'll probably kill herself.
Speaker 2: Which by the way, she was, and I think that
Speaker 2: was her projection. So this is what I took a
Speaker 2: note on, is that when she was pretending to be
Speaker 2: her mom trying to tell Wade, like I wrote it here,
Speaker 2: she would say to herself like calling herself like a
Speaker 2: fat bitch, but like pretending it wasn't her that was
Speaker 2: saying it. And so my belief about that is she
Speaker 2: was projecting how bad she really fell into these texts.
Speaker 2: It was almost like another way for that personality component
Speaker 2: to come in, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3: It completely makes sense. She even like told on herself
Speaker 3: by saying like she's she'll kill herself like she's tried
Speaker 3: to she'll kind of kill herself like she's tried to
Speaker 3: do before, which we didn't we don't really know about
Speaker 3: and we don't really know if that's true.
Speaker 2: Well, people with these personality styles, let me put it
Speaker 2: this way, they care too much about themselves to usually
Speaker 2: do something like that. Like people who are highly narcissistic
Speaker 2: or have a lot of narcissistic traits and tendencies, they'll
Speaker 2: kill somebody before they ever take their own life usually
Speaker 2: for the most part. I mean, there's definitely exceptions to
Speaker 2: the rule, but again I think that was just that
Speaker 2: was her ploy for attention. And you know I need
Speaker 2: to be taken care of. Wade needs to take care
Speaker 2: of me.
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Speaker 2: Even though it's like it's weird because she was doing
Speaker 2: all the things. She was cooking dinner, she was mowing
Speaker 2: the yard, but it's like that's how she got him
Speaker 2: because the only thing that he cared about was that
Speaker 2: like the things that she did, like yes, coming home
Speaker 2: to a home cook meal and then she would bake
Speaker 2: a pie or whatever, and then he just wouldn't ask
Speaker 2: any questions. And you know, he was a simple man,
Speaker 2: and she knew use this simple but to spoon feed
Speaker 2: him to get him to participate in this.
Speaker 4: And she charmed his whole family.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, this whole family immediately where they were like,
Speaker 3: you know, marry this one.
Speaker 4: She's great. She came on with this great personality. Right,
Speaker 4: one is not sure? Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And listen, I'm not saying are you saying no,
Speaker 2: I just want to be clear. She multiple personality disorder
Speaker 2: is a so it's basically called dissociative identity disorder.
Speaker 4: I'm not saying she has that.
Speaker 2: I believe that she has various personality disorders, but not
Speaker 2: dissociative identity disorder. No, those people aren't aware. It's not purposeful.
Speaker 2: There's not ego, there's not narcissism. That's that's a whole
Speaker 2: other thing.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a whole other thing.
Speaker 3: And I get what you're saying, because it's like she
Speaker 3: is choosing to play this role. Yes, it's a choice
Speaker 3: to be this type of personality during this moment to
Speaker 3: get what she wants.
Speaker 4: Correct.
Speaker 2: Yes, very antisocial, very I'm gonna use crime and aliases
Speaker 2: and lies to get my needs met. And I don't
Speaker 2: care who I have to step over or step on
Speaker 2: or hurt or kill, because it's only about what she
Speaker 2: wants at the end of the day.
Speaker 3: Now, Melissa, Oh, one thing, by the way, this is
Speaker 3: happening during COVID, which is a g which is great
Speaker 3: for her because that's why Wade couldn't go to any
Speaker 3: of the doctor's appointments right for her pregnancy because she's like, Oh,
Speaker 3: you can't come, it's COVID, Okay. So I just want
Speaker 3: to put that out there. What I found extremely fascinating
Speaker 3: was there were no priors, She had no record. How
Speaker 3: is that possible at this point in her life.
Speaker 4: I'll tell you.
Speaker 2: Because women who have these personality issues are typically able
Speaker 2: to get off the hook, because this is where the
Speaker 2: patriarchy and misogyny actually helps women who are inherently problematic.
Speaker 2: Because she looked kind of like, I don't know, like
Speaker 2: cute girl, you know what I mean.
Speaker 4: Like she was just like a regular gal.
Speaker 2: She looked kind of cute and because she was able
Speaker 2: to be such a manipulator, people would know, Like her
Speaker 2: friends would talk about these weren't the first lies she told.
Speaker 2: Like she was a liar basically since birth. Her mother
Speaker 2: said that she's just like always lied. Her friends Mackenzie
Speaker 2: and Abby said she mimicked people. She would ask girls
Speaker 2: for nudes to catfish guys when she was like in
Speaker 2: high school. And so my point being is these behaviors
Speaker 2: were there, but women who are con artists tend to
Speaker 2: get away with it for a long time because they're
Speaker 2: viewed as the fairer sex. Or a woman couldn't possibly
Speaker 2: do this, or she doesn't look like she could do
Speaker 2: something like this, and that's how dangerous women maneuver all
Speaker 2: the time.
Speaker 3: And on that note, you know she was married two times,
Speaker 3: she didn't have custody of her kids, and we don't
Speaker 3: know what happened there, but clearly not fit when she
Speaker 3: gets with Wade, Why and how did things escalate so quickly,
Speaker 3: literally over eleven months, ten months maybe to where she
Speaker 3: became a photographer on the side to do like family photos.
Speaker 3: And that's how she met the victim, Reagan, who was
Speaker 3: getting married and she found Taylor, probably through Facebook. Friendly
Speaker 3: said this is a friendly and expensive this and not
Speaker 3: a professional photographer.
Speaker 2: What but Taylor's the photographer at Reagan's wedding, which is
Speaker 2: so gross.
Speaker 3: Or your engagement photos right, and befriends. She did this
Speaker 3: to Reagan, she sought her out to continue that friendship.
Speaker 3: To me, this was a long con Okay in my opinion, yes,
Speaker 3: but to your point, it happened so quickly because manipulated
Speaker 3: it to do that so that he didn't have time
Speaker 3: to think.
Speaker 4: So this is what I wrote down, like, how did
Speaker 4: this happen? Okay? So the first step was my mom's crazy.
Speaker 4: I need to move in with you for protection, okay, Okay.
Speaker 2: Then the second thing was I'll give you everything you want.
Speaker 2: Oh have dinner ready, I'll mow the lawn, I'll take
Speaker 2: care of the animals, I'll pull my weight. Number three,
Speaker 2: I have money and I will buy your love. And
Speaker 2: then number four rushing, It doesn't give you time to think.
Speaker 2: With intimate partner violence or domestic violent scenarios, you'll often
Speaker 2: find these very rush timelines because people a sometimes they're
Speaker 2: not capable of faking it for long enough, and they
Speaker 2: want to really get their grift in Wow, but b
Speaker 2: it's a mechanism to prevent people from thinking about the
Speaker 2: decisions that they're making.
Speaker 4: Wow, Wow rushing yep.
Speaker 2: So you know, and unfortunately Reagan. You know, Jessica mother
Speaker 2: really advocated for her in this documentary and she just
Speaker 2: said that Reagan was a beautiful soul, someone who loved
Speaker 2: other people and wanted to be there for people.
Speaker 4: Who didn't have others. And Taylor knew that.
Speaker 2: She picked her victim unfortunately, extremely well, which tells me
Speaker 2: she has skills that are again antisocial in nature of
Speaker 2: like predators. They can sniff out weaknesses and others. It's
Speaker 2: like nothing I've ever seen before. It's like a sixth sense.
Speaker 2: They're so scarily good at it. And I think that's
Speaker 2: something that Taylor understood. In fact, Taylor sought her out,
Speaker 2: I think the night before she killed her and they
Speaker 2: went out to dinner. They spent time together. And to me,
Speaker 2: again that's very indicative of like an antisocial lack of empathy,
Speaker 2: because how so she hung out with Reagan, knew what
Speaker 2: she was going to do the next day, went home
Speaker 2: and got a fitfull night of sleep, and then went
Speaker 2: took the baby and left her child that it's just
Speaker 2: so it's so predatory. I guess I just want to
Speaker 2: be really clear about that.
Speaker 3: That makes so much sense, and it is my understanding
Speaker 3: that she was stalking women and not just she was
Speaker 3: her so like, and I don't that those answers for
Speaker 3: me that I got when those were some statements that
Speaker 3: I discovered that didn't go any further than that. I'd
Speaker 3: like to learn know a little bit more about how
Speaker 3: many people was she currently stalking, how many people has
Speaker 3: she stalked in the past to potentially execute other grips
Speaker 3: as you say, right, And what a perfect position to
Speaker 3: put yourself in as a family photographer, because you will
Speaker 3: agatiate yourself to these people and you make them see
Speaker 3: it makes them seem like you're so great. And that's
Speaker 3: why Reagan liked her, because then she's saying, you know, oh,
Speaker 3: I've got these problems with my husband and I just
Speaker 3: came out of a divorce or whatever, and now there's
Speaker 3: a right I mean.
Speaker 2: And that's how she used her femininity to get away
Speaker 2: with murder too, because again, you're not going to suspect
Speaker 2: the female photographer from your wedding and your shower, you know,
Speaker 2: And she got people feeling bad for her because with
Speaker 2: her history of feasting on people's lives, she had these
Speaker 2: stories to tell that weren't hers. But she knew, she
Speaker 2: knew what she was doing when she took these stories
Speaker 2: from people and then fed them to other people, right,
Speaker 2: And I think that's just yeah, it's just really sad.
Speaker 4: It's unfortunate.
Speaker 3: How could this have been stopped? So many questions here
Speaker 3: because her mother. The understanding that I have is that
Speaker 3: her mother was living in somewhat a little bit of
Speaker 3: fear because she would take care of her daughter, Taylor's daughter,
Speaker 3: and she was afraid that Taylor would take the granddaughter
Speaker 3: away from her if she were to do something, you know,
Speaker 3: So she's just trying to keep her at bay. Although
Speaker 3: am I right that her her mother did say did
Speaker 3: tell somebody that she couldn't have kids?
Speaker 4: Isn't that correct? Didn't the mother?
Speaker 2: That is also correct? Yes, the mother spoke to people. Yeah,
Speaker 2: she just she wasn't on the documentary they showed a
Speaker 2: picture of her. But she did also try to help,
Speaker 2: Like when whoever called her, was it Connie Griffin, Waite's
Speaker 2: mom or one of Cory's friends. Someone called her and
Speaker 2: she said I've been waiting for this call.
Speaker 4: Thank you. Oh, I've been waiting for this call. She said,
Speaker 4: oh yeah, mother said that. Yes. The mother said that, yes.
Speaker 3: And so you know, you've got all these people that know,
Speaker 3: and they're kind of just waiting there, you know, the
Speaker 3: friends from the past, waiting there to see what she's
Speaker 3: going to do, because everyone's told Wade, what else can
Speaker 3: they possibly do? Because how could you anticipate something so gruesome?
Speaker 3: No one could have anticipated that, could they have? Because
Speaker 3: she's never displayed murderous traits before? How could they have
Speaker 3: expected this? Would the mother have?
Speaker 2: As I was watching it, I saw all the red
Speaker 2: flags in terms of like stalking, an obsession with another
Speaker 2: woman's child.
Speaker 4: So I wanted to get back to that.
Speaker 2: Her friend Mackenzie or Abby, I forget which one was pregnant.
Speaker 2: One of them was pregnant, like so, she and Taylor
Speaker 2: were friends. They bonded over not being able to have children.
Speaker 2: But then the one got pregnant, and then Taylor became
Speaker 2: obsessed with her pregnancy. She wanted to go on her
Speaker 2: tracking app. She wanted to go to her doctor's appointments.
Speaker 2: That's right, she wanted her tracking app log in. Yes,
Speaker 2: and it spooked. It spooked her so bad, which, by
Speaker 2: the way, this saved her life. I'm telling you right now,
Speaker 2: the only reason this woman was alive to tell this
Speaker 2: story is because she listened to her gut and said,
Speaker 2: I need you out of my life. I'm not talking
Speaker 2: to you anymore. And then Taylor had to look for
Speaker 2: a new mark. I fully believe, I will say this
Speaker 2: with my whole heart, that her friend would have been
Speaker 2: the victim if she had not cut her off Number one.
Speaker 2: Number two, when you see the flags of the pathological lying,
Speaker 2: the planning, the internet searches, how to fake an ultrasound order,
Speaker 2: cheap silicone belly, private infant adoption, new board adoptions, how
Speaker 2: to file birth certificate for home birth, how to find
Speaker 2: a birth mother, and then her last search was video
Speaker 2: of a sea section. She literally watched on YouTube a
Speaker 2: video of a sea section, knowing that what she was
Speaker 2: going to do to her friend that she just spent
Speaker 2: time with that night. And so the stalking, the obsession,
Speaker 2: the pathological lying, I could see that something really bad
Speaker 2: was coming. Unfortunately, an average person most likely is going
Speaker 2: to miss those red flags.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because they are not seeing this, They're not seeing
Speaker 3: the Internet searches. They're not seeing that she's stalking this
Speaker 3: person and laying the foundation. And you know, when things
Speaker 3: are to the end, you know, nine months she doesn't
Speaker 3: have the baby. She's telling everybody that she's going to
Speaker 3: do this appointment, that appointment, and now it's ten months
Speaker 3: and everyone's going like, what, what's going to happen? Yeah,
Speaker 3: she tells Wade that she's going to go to a
Speaker 3: different hospital, one that's like in Oklahoma or something, because
Speaker 3: she can't go to the ones in Texas because they
Speaker 3: all know she's full of shit, so she can't go there.
Speaker 3: So she says that she's set up like a c
Speaker 3: section or whatever, an appointment to get to have the baby.
Speaker 3: And that morning she sets fire to the fucking house.
Speaker 4: To Wade's house.
Speaker 2: He wakes up and he's like, the house is up
Speaker 2: far and he's like, I had no idea how happy
Speaker 2: it is.
Speaker 4: It's like, really, you don't, you know, to the enemy.
Speaker 2: And not only that, but she sent him to sell
Speaker 2: hogs like four hours away. Mm hmm, So she set
Speaker 2: his house on fire. She sent him four hours away
Speaker 2: to sell these hogs. She called in a bomb threat
Speaker 2: of Mount Pleasant Hospital using one of her like her
Speaker 2: voice hiding apps because it said it was a male subject,
Speaker 2: and we're like, you know that was Taylor.
Speaker 4: You know that was Taylor. I mean, come on.
Speaker 2: And then she told Wade to leave to go sell
Speaker 2: the hogs, and then she went killed her friend, took
Speaker 2: the baby and just drove down the road, thinking that
Speaker 2: people were going to be like, yep.
Speaker 4: You know what this tracks. Yeah, that is so wacky
Speaker 4: to me. That's so cy I mean it.
Speaker 3: Is like, so this whole plan that she had, which
Speaker 3: was to get this guy have a baby, and she's
Speaker 3: executing this situation and at the very end, she ends
Speaker 3: up having this baby, which by the way, does not
Speaker 3: survive obviously, and neither does Reagan rights which is rest
Speaker 3: and prestous peace.
Speaker 4: And I will never forget them ever.
Speaker 2: No, literally, I think about Reagan and that baby. I'm
Speaker 2: not kidding a lot. I don't even really believe in God,
Speaker 2: but I've said prayers. I'm just like, I hope they're
Speaker 2: at peace because the empathy and the grief that I
Speaker 2: feel not even knowing them, I'm like to do something
Speaker 2: like that. You have to really We'll get into this
Speaker 2: and I'll explain what I think is going on. But
Speaker 2: primarily you have to lack empathy inherently. You couldn't do
Speaker 2: something like that physically. They said in the at the end,
Speaker 2: there were one hundred and thirteen sharp force injuries to Reagan.
Speaker 2: One hundred and thirteen. That is one hundred and thirteen
Speaker 2: times that she made choice after choice after choice to
Speaker 2: continue with this, and that just shows complete lack of
Speaker 2: empathy none whatsoever.
Speaker 3: The doctor even said that he could not believe the
Speaker 3: way that she had done that because it I can't
Speaker 3: even discuss that. I just get you.
Speaker 2: Could look at you could watch the documentary. He talks
Speaker 2: about how she did it and how she did it incorrectly.
Speaker 2: But I agree, we can. People can watch that if
Speaker 2: you want to.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the doctor did say in the documentary that because
Speaker 3: they all knew that something was going to have to
Speaker 3: give with Taylor, because her dutate and was pasted, and
Speaker 3: what's she going to do? So the newborn unit what
Speaker 3: a out of pink, A code code pink, which basically meant, like,
Speaker 3: you know, she could come and steal a baby.
Speaker 4: So they were right.
Speaker 2: Because that's what they thought. She's going to try to
Speaker 2: steal a baby. No one ever thought that she would
Speaker 2: try to kill somebody to obtain a baby, correct, Which
Speaker 2: that's where I guess personally as a professional, I feel
Speaker 2: a lot of people failed Reagan and her child in
Speaker 2: the scenario.
Speaker 4: Yes, because I think.
Speaker 2: At this point, if you're doing that, there should have
Speaker 2: been other interventions that needed to happen, and I you know,
Speaker 2: I think there could have been more that could have
Speaker 2: been done.
Speaker 3: So, Hippa, you can't get past that, right, I mean, no,
Speaker 3: you cannot can't. It's so you know, I kept thinking like,
Speaker 3: isn't there anything?
Speaker 4: And no, they could.
Speaker 3: They did everything they could by saying, trust your gut,
Speaker 3: you're on the right track, follow the breath crumbs, like
Speaker 3: you know, they did what they could do you And
Speaker 3: I mean, that's that's true. Never could have anticipated what
Speaker 3: was going to happen. So when she's in the car
Speaker 3: and she has this baby, Melissa, after all of what
Speaker 3: she did to get to this point, where did she
Speaker 3: think it was going to end? And how does someone
Speaker 3: who's that specific in terms of planning this whole ruse
Speaker 3: fail with an ending?
Speaker 2: Because the ironic thing about people with whether it's antisocial
Speaker 2: personality disorder or different types of personality disorders, it's not logical,
Speaker 2: you know, it's like.
Speaker 4: It's just impulsive in the moment thinking.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of impulsiveness. And so we can start
Speaker 2: to talk about this if you want to. It's some
Speaker 2: of like the characteristics of some of these like cluster
Speaker 2: be personality disorders.
Speaker 3: Let's talk about the personality disorders. Thank you, okay, okay,
Speaker 3: let's talk about that a minute.
Speaker 2: So the first thing that I want to say, because
Speaker 2: Amy had asked this question and it was such a
Speaker 2: good point, what is the difference between personality disorder versus
Speaker 2: like a mental health disorder? Because when you hear the
Speaker 2: colloquial term, for example, crazy, this is not somebody who
Speaker 2: was delusional or not understanding what they were doing.
Speaker 4: She was not psychotic.
Speaker 2: She was in charge, aware and making active decisions. And
Speaker 2: so personality disorders are technically a type of mental health condition,
Speaker 2: but they differ from mental illness like depression and anxiety
Speaker 2: in their duration number one, how the person views their
Speaker 2: symptoms to and treatment number three. So let me explain
Speaker 2: mental health issues like major depressive disorder, for example, which
Speaker 2: I have. I have major depressive disorder and I have PTSD.
Speaker 2: They can occur at any age fluctuate and be episodic,
Speaker 2: but personality disorders the big differences. They are rigid, lifelong
Speaker 2: patterns that typically develop in late adolescents or early adulthood.
Speaker 2: As I had mentioned, now, this is the key thing
Speaker 2: people with mental health issues usually recognize is that their
Speaker 2: thoughts or feelings are causing distress. But individuals with personality
Speaker 2: disorders often see their behaviors as normal or a necessary
Speaker 2: part of who they are, attributing their problems to external sources.
Speaker 2: So when Taylor said that she has this like alien
Speaker 2: abduction syndrome or whatever she tried to say she has,
Speaker 2: she's trying to blame something that's clearly not her when
Speaker 2: this is all her. She ruined many families, generations. The
Speaker 2: ripple effect goes on, but she's in jail saying, well,
Speaker 2: this is why I have trauma and this is why
Speaker 2: this happened.
Speaker 4: And no, that's that's absolutely not so.
Speaker 2: The mental health conditions affect how you feel or act,
Speaker 2: but a personality disorder fundamentally distorts a person's sense of self,
Speaker 2: how they relate to others in the world. And I
Speaker 2: know that was a lot, but that does not make sense.
Speaker 4: That's the difference.
Speaker 3: It does yeah, I had no idea how serious personality
Speaker 3: disorders are. And well, to me, it almost seems like
Speaker 3: they're worse than mental illness because like, and I know
Speaker 3: that you're gonna say, no, that's not necessarily sure or whatever,
Speaker 3: but I'm just in my opinion right now, they seem
Speaker 3: worse because like, when I see the term or the
Speaker 3: title the category mental illness, that seems really intense, and
Speaker 3: then I see personality disorder that seems less intense. So
Speaker 3: that's why I was like, why aren't we putting that
Speaker 3: under mental illness? Because mental illness is, you know, it
Speaker 3: should be the umbrella that encapsulates all of the issues
Speaker 3: that we have going on because it's mental and if
Speaker 3: we're ill on some level, why wouldn't that be under
Speaker 3: that category. But I understand what you're saying that these
Speaker 3: are very separate, and I why aren't people talking about
Speaker 3: this more often? Because it's maybe you're like, actually, they
Speaker 3: do a lot in my life, and as a matter
Speaker 3: of fact, it's quite obvious.
Speaker 2: No, but no, I mean it's so common for people
Speaker 2: to not really this is something probably only a clinician
Speaker 2: would really know. These are not things that the average
Speaker 2: person is going to understand, Like, I went to school
Speaker 2: for years to understand to learn about this stuff. Then
Speaker 2: I worked on it in private practice in my career
Speaker 2: and all of that. So it's okay to not Like,
Speaker 2: when you look at a person, you know, a personality disorder,
Speaker 2: mental health issues, they're invisible A lot of times you
Speaker 2: can't see it on the outside, and so it does.
Speaker 2: It leads to confusion, it leads to misunderstanding. But the
Speaker 2: one thing about personality disorders is that they're less treatable,
Speaker 2: but only because when you're struggling with a personality disorder,
Speaker 2: there has to be two things present. I believe that
Speaker 2: anyone can change. I really truly believe it. I've seen
Speaker 2: people change, I've seen miraculous things happen. But you have
Speaker 2: to have two things, and one is awareness and the
Speaker 2: other is motivation, and those are the two things that
Speaker 2: people with personality disorders most often don't have. However, I
Speaker 2: don't want to paint all of the personality disorders with
Speaker 2: the same brush, because we're talking about so there's cluster A,
Speaker 2: there's cluster B, and there's cluster C. Now cluster A
Speaker 2: is otter eccentric, and under that falls paranoid. Schizoid and schizotypal.
Speaker 2: So those are personality disorders, which is differentiated from schizophrenia,
Speaker 2: which is a delusional disorder under mental.
Speaker 4: Illness Wow yeah wow.
Speaker 2: And they're yeah and they and they differ, which again
Speaker 2: I don't we don't have to.
Speaker 4: They do differ, but we don't have time to go
Speaker 4: into that.
Speaker 2: But cluster B is where a lot of the so
Speaker 2: cluster B is dramatic, emotional or erratic, and so under
Speaker 2: cluster B we have antisocial personality disorder, which is characterized
Speaker 2: by disregard for the rights of others, impulsivity, and a
Speaker 2: lack of remorse and so antisocial this is where if
Speaker 2: you hear the term sociopathy or psychopathy, this is kind
Speaker 2: of usually what those broad umbrella terms talk about is
Speaker 2: antisocial personality disorder. So as children, you're gonna see a
Speaker 2: blatant disregard of rules, maybe some conduct issues, getting in
Speaker 2: trouble with the law, you know, disregard for authority, and
Speaker 2: lack of remorse, things like that. And you also this
Speaker 2: is where you see the dark triad of traits in
Speaker 2: terms of like setting fires and like abusing animals and
Speaker 2: things like that that would fall under antisocial borderline personality
Speaker 2: disorder involves mood swings on stable relationships, if fear of abandonment,
Speaker 2: and identity disturbances. But people with borderline personality disorder generally
Speaker 2: are not aggressive. They may self harm. That happens a
Speaker 2: lot with borderline personality disorder, but that's not typical right
Speaker 2: for people in that category. Histrionic, it's defined by a
Speaker 2: constant need for attention, shallow emotions, and a highly suggestible
Speaker 2: or theatrical behavior. And then the last one is narcissistic,
Speaker 2: which involves grandiosity and excessive need for admiration and lack
Speaker 2: of empathy for others. Okay, I know that was a
Speaker 2: lot I believe she has. By the way, comorbidity is
Speaker 2: very common when you have one personality disorder, you can
Speaker 2: experience others within the same cluster or different clusters, And
Speaker 2: in my opinion, she meets a lot of the criteria
Speaker 2: for a couple of these. In my opinion, Now there's
Speaker 2: cluster C, which is anxious or fearful, and those are
Speaker 2: like obsessive compulsive personality disorder, which differs from an obsessive
Speaker 2: compulsive disorder, which is It's all a lot, and it
Speaker 2: is very confusing, but the point of what I'm saying,
Speaker 2: it's very common for people to exhibit traits from multiple
Speaker 2: disorders across multiple clusters.
Speaker 4: If that makes sense.
Speaker 3: It does does she span I mean, in your opinion,
Speaker 3: does she span ABC or is she just mostly in B.
Speaker 2: I think she falls in BE for the most part.
Speaker 2: But you know, there's a certain level of delusional thinking
Speaker 2: in terms of like reckless or impulsive in terms of
Speaker 2: what we talked about, where it's like, well, there was
Speaker 2: no plan there, Like you knew you weren't going to
Speaker 2: have a baby, so what were you like? I think
Speaker 2: she was just so used to lying and getting away
Speaker 2: with it that she wasn't accustomed to running into like
Speaker 2: a closed road for her, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: She wasn't accustomed to consequences or having truth get.
Speaker 4: In the way.
Speaker 2: And so for me, it was a lot of things
Speaker 2: that led to this, but a lot of very complex things.
Speaker 4: But yeah, that would have to be my thought.
Speaker 2: I think she really has some very antisocial, criminal, narcissistic
Speaker 2: attention seeking.
Speaker 3: All personality disorders be treated with medication, no.
Speaker 2: Not with medication, so they're hard to treat because they're
Speaker 2: deeply ingrained. How Ever, there are therapies like CBT cognitive
Speaker 2: behavioral therapy, and it's something called DBT dialectical behavior therapy
Speaker 2: that are proven to be effective for people with personality disorders. However,
Speaker 2: again you have to be aware and you have to
Speaker 2: want to change. And the cluster bees of all the clusters,
Speaker 2: with the exception of borderline personality disorder, I'm going to
Speaker 2: pluck that out for a minute. They're typically not interested
Speaker 2: in doing anything different. It's everybody else that's the problem,
Speaker 2: it's not them. But treatment can be highly effective. Now,
Speaker 2: there are some studies that suggest that people with like
Speaker 2: an antisocial personality disorder, that talk therapy only makes them
Speaker 2: more savvy. They learn how to manipulate, they learn what
Speaker 2: to say to manipulate, especially if they come across a
Speaker 2: practitioner who isn't savvy enough to identify what's going on.
Speaker 2: So the point is, yes, they can be treated. And
Speaker 2: I hope because I I know there's people listening to
Speaker 2: this that have personality disorders, and I want to be
Speaker 2: really really mindful of Like, people with personality disorders are
Speaker 2: not psychos, they're not psychopaths. Right, we have some individuals
Speaker 2: who happen to be those things, and also happen to
Speaker 2: have some of these personality disorders. But this is not common.
Speaker 2: I guess I just want everyone to hear the absolutely
Speaker 2: absolutely okay. I mean, and guys, we all have our stuff.
Speaker 2: I mean, come on, you know what I mean. I
Speaker 2: got my stuff.
Speaker 4: We all have. I got two hands of stuff, girl.
Speaker 3: I mean, I got a bushelves, I got a bushelp,
Speaker 3: I got a hog farm full of it. But I
Speaker 3: do want to just mention a couple of things. I
Speaker 3: know we'll probably have to wrap in a moment with
Speaker 3: some of the things that I discovered outside of the documentary. Yes, Tom,
Speaker 3: she's not paying child support. In the past, she was
Speaker 3: offering fifty thousand dollars to surrogates.
Speaker 2: Oh, which she doesn't have fifty dollars, So no, she
Speaker 2: sure doesn't.
Speaker 3: That's wildcrift in prison. This is an interesting thing. She
Speaker 3: before she was moved to death row. I believe she
Speaker 3: was like with you know, the general population. She caused
Speaker 3: so much trouble in a prison that they had to
Speaker 3: move her because she was causing so much. Do you
Speaker 3: know how hard it would be for a prisoner to
Speaker 3: cause so much trouble inside of a prison that they
Speaker 3: would actually have to move you. I mean, that's what's wild.
Speaker 3: So she was asking she had like an inmate, a cellmate,
Speaker 3: somebody who she was convincing them that they did what
Speaker 3: she did. She was having them write a confessional letter.
Speaker 3: She had other people try. She was trying to get
Speaker 3: other people to write a confessional letter that they did
Speaker 3: this crime that she did. Okay, I'm just gonna leave
Speaker 3: that there.
Speaker 4: God.
Speaker 3: She wrote a letter to the FBI saying like, I
Speaker 3: you know, I am really good about what I do.
Speaker 3: I can help you.
Speaker 2: And they were like, okay, so the narcissism and that
Speaker 2: I'm sure do we say what I'm talking about, the
Speaker 2: narcissism to believe that the FBI could learn from you, bitch?
Speaker 4: Oh oh that's interesting. How you okay?
Speaker 3: They were like no, thanks. And the diagnosis that during
Speaker 3: the court hearing they had like I want to say,
Speaker 3: three or four different diagnoses done on her defense, prosecution, whatever,
Speaker 3: And interestingly enough, they said that she wasn't mentally ill,
Speaker 3: she does have personality disorder.
Speaker 4: Oh good, I'm glad that I know what I'm there,
Speaker 4: you go, I know I want to know that. They
Speaker 4: said that, yes, I know, he didn't.
Speaker 3: And then they also had a neurologist look at her
Speaker 3: and they did like an MRI of her brain much
Speaker 3: to like what you said. They said that she has
Speaker 3: frontal lobe dysfunction, which.
Speaker 2: Is very common with people with antisocial personality disorder and
Speaker 2: things like that.
Speaker 4: That is very very common.
Speaker 3: Lastly, we didn't talk about how Wade's coworkers or like
Speaker 3: his boss boss and his wife were really invested in
Speaker 3: this couple and really believed him. And she had her
Speaker 3: fake pregnancy belly, she somehow was able to make it
Speaker 3: move to make it look like the baby was kicking.
Speaker 3: So that person was completely believing Taylor and was like
Speaker 3: very much in Wade's ear, saying like you got to
Speaker 3: take care of her. You go, that's your baby, you
Speaker 3: know all this stuff, So I just want to try
Speaker 3: that's her plan. By the way, did she get is
Speaker 3: that like some sort of electronic like movement thing or
Speaker 3: how did she even do that?
Speaker 4: I don't here. That's what I'm going to tell you.
Speaker 2: People with these issues, if they put that time and
Speaker 2: effort into something real, they could cure cancer. But instead
Speaker 2: they want to fool people, rob people, builk people, you know,
Speaker 2: whatever it is that they're looking to do. They will
Speaker 2: put all their time, resources, brain power and effort into
Speaker 2: that and they'll get it done because that they're motivated
Speaker 2: to do right.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 2: Yes, And if she had that level of motivation towards
Speaker 2: getting better, she could anything as possible. But she she doesn't,
Speaker 2: because that's ridiculous to think that you're having inmates write
Speaker 2: letters like girl, the jig is up, You're on death row.
Speaker 4: You've been found guilty. There's no one else that could have,
Speaker 4: would have or is so to me?
Speaker 2: It just displays again this like narcissism, ego and lack
Speaker 2: of understanding about herself others in the world.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 3: My last thing is that just so everybody knows she
Speaker 3: has exhausted all the appeals. Oh good, and so it
Speaker 3: will continue with the death sentence. There's no there's the.
Speaker 4: Thing, Amy, I'm gonna be honest.
Speaker 2: I am not usually a proponent of the death sentence
Speaker 2: for me.
Speaker 4: For me, I feel tricky.
Speaker 2: That's not her us to decide. However, this woman is
Speaker 2: a menace to society. It's proof in jail right that
Speaker 2: she's still doing the same old Shitah. And this is
Speaker 2: a very dangerous person that I am grateful she will
Speaker 2: not be able to hurt, well, anyone on the outside,
Speaker 2: I'd be concerned for people on the inside if I'm
Speaker 2: being honesty, if she thinks she can get something from them.
Speaker 2: But I think that this is a case where, you know,
Speaker 2: for Reagan and for that child.
Speaker 4: She needs to go away forever.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I hate to say that, but that's why
Speaker 2: this case is so icky, because it makes you feel
Speaker 2: it's just so bad.
Speaker 4: It's so bad, it's so ugly.
Speaker 2: But I really hope that through us talking about it today,
Speaker 2: people have gotten a better understanding of like, you know,
Speaker 2: because for me too, this is about right taking the
Speaker 2: stigma away from like mental health issues or you know,
Speaker 2: things like that.
Speaker 4: And you know, I love it.
Speaker 3: That's that's why I just I get so happy and
Speaker 3: so excited about your explanation about all this. And I'm
Speaker 3: the perfect person to talk to about it because I'm
Speaker 3: a narcissist, No, because I because I'm so it takes
Speaker 3: me a little while to understand things, and so I
Speaker 3: feel like I can ask the right questions over and
Speaker 3: over again in order to get a real understanding for myself.
Speaker 3: And then therefore, you know, those out there listening are
Speaker 3: probably like, yeah, Amy, we got it. The first time
Speaker 3: she explained it, we didn't need to say. But I
Speaker 3: feel like it just it helps, you know, you really,
Speaker 3: you can really put the layers down and explain it.
Speaker 3: I just this was we could talk about it for
Speaker 3: another hour, you know, we could, but listen and maybe
Speaker 3: we'll need to do and maybe and maybe we could
Speaker 3: do a separate, a whole separate podcast where you do
Speaker 3: talk about like the personality disorders in general and mental
Speaker 3: illness in general, just like a you know, psychology one
Speaker 3: oh one would be really interesting.
Speaker 4: But well, if y'all want to hear that, let me know.
Speaker 4: I'm happy to do whatever people want to hear.
Speaker 2: But Amy, I really appreciate your voice in this too,
Speaker 2: because you got all that other information and I just
Speaker 2: appreciate you very much, Number one, everything you brought to this.
Speaker 2: Number two, And you do represent the average American who
Speaker 2: like is a good person and doesn't see how someone
Speaker 2: who seemingly is a good person could do something like this, right,
Speaker 2: And so I think for me, it's just about like
Speaker 2: helping to give people answers, also helping people to understand
Speaker 2: red flags and keep themselves safe because there are other
Speaker 2: tailors out there, and I guess What I just want
Speaker 2: to say is to wrap this up, is if your
Speaker 2: gut is telling you something is wrong, please listen to it.
Speaker 4: You don't necessarily need to put your finger on it.
Speaker 2: You don't need to name it, you don't need to
Speaker 2: have like a litany of like backed up reason.
Speaker 4: It's just I believe your God.
Speaker 3: Always to ears way, go the other way, because if
Speaker 3: you're a very nice person and your receptive, predators will
Speaker 3: be looking for you because they want that person that
Speaker 3: they can and persuade little by little if you're ignoring
Speaker 3: their bad behaviors and you know, and you're letting them
Speaker 3: squeak in and you're letting this fall.
Speaker 4: By the way, oh, they didn't really mean that. They didn't.
Speaker 4: Surely they couldn't.
Speaker 3: Oh you know, I'm just gonna I'm a bright light
Speaker 3: to them.
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: And also, by the way, predators use something called habituation,
Speaker 2: which is like they step their toe over the line
Speaker 2: over and over to get you used to it, and
Speaker 2: then they step it over more. Get used to that,
Speaker 2: and then they step it over more and.
Speaker 4: You get used to that. Wow.
Speaker 2: See yeah, that's I'm just trying to let's keep ourselves safe, y'all.
Speaker 2: Say from the tailors of the world, Amy, thank you
Speaker 2: so much. This was actually, you know, it was tough content, but.
Speaker 3: I you know, I did I did my job, which
Speaker 3: is showing up and just you know, asking the questions.
Speaker 3: I'm so glad that we did this. And and thank you.
Speaker 3: Thanks for your insight and your intelligence and all the
Speaker 3: work that you've done in your life to get us
Speaker 3: to this point and understand this stuff so well.
Speaker 4: Thank you. Thanks to our listeners, yes.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for all the Darlingbishes who support
Speaker 2: us and love us. And so you know what I
Speaker 2: would say is, please check both of us out, check
Speaker 2: me out at your bish therapist, check me out on Patreon,
Speaker 2: patreon dot com, backslash your bish therapist, and please give
Speaker 2: Amy and I five star reviews if you'd be so inclined,
Speaker 2: and you haven't already. The world is harsh, and you
Speaker 2: know it really makes a difference. And thank you all
Speaker 2: for those that have already done that.
Speaker 3: Thanks you guys. You can find me anywhere listener to
Speaker 3: guest drama Darling and my patreon is patreon dot COM's
Speaker 3: last drama Darling. Okay, okay, all right, thank you all.
Speaker 3: Bye listen Bye, disclaimer. Posts are not intended to diagnose,
Speaker 3: treat or provide medical advice. Your bish Therapist is for
Speaker 3: entertainment and informational purposes only. The podcast, my opinions and
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