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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to Why we do what we do. Welcome

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<v Speaker 1>to Why we do what we do Mini. I'm your

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<v Speaker 1>host Abraham, and I'm your O Shane. We are a

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<v Speaker 1>psychology podcast. We talk about the things that humans and

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<v Speaker 1>non human animals do, and in many episodes that we

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<v Speaker 1>release on Mondays, we do that quickly in a short

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<v Speaker 1>format that's only like fifteen minutes or less. Our full

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<v Speaker 1>length episodes come out on Wednesdays, so you can check

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<v Speaker 1>out those for more in depth conversations, multiparters and all

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<v Speaker 1>that good stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>But let's go ahead and dive into this.

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<v Speaker 1>If you'd like to support us, you can leave us

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<v Speaker 1>a rating and a review, like a subscribe, tell a friend,

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<v Speaker 1>join us on Patreon. I'll talk more about those at

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<v Speaker 1>the end of our discussion today. If you are joining

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<v Speaker 1>us for the first time and welcome, I hope that

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<v Speaker 1>you enjoy what we describe in this discussion and that

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<v Speaker 1>appeals to you and then you're like, man, I feel

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<v Speaker 1>so well informed that I'm just happy, and that's what

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<v Speaker 1>we're trying to do. If you're a return to person,

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<v Speaker 1>then welcome back. You already had that blissful euphoria and

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<v Speaker 1>you're here for more and I applaud you being here.

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<v Speaker 1>But either way, this is a mini so we got

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<v Speaker 1>to get in there. Is there anything you'd like to

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<v Speaker 1>add or that I forgot before we dive into our

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<v Speaker 1>topic today?

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<v Speaker 3>Nope, not today.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, let's start big around the world and throughout human history.

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<v Speaker 2>Is that big enough?

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<v Speaker 3>I think that's plenty big.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, okay, perfect In that amount of time, students have

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<v Speaker 1>been required to take work home with them from school

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<v Speaker 1>for centuries. I mean, we haven't obviously had an education

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<v Speaker 1>system for as long as there have been humans, But

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<v Speaker 1>since we've had an education system, or at least for

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<v Speaker 1>a good chunk of it, students have been required to

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<v Speaker 1>take work home with them after their education in some capacity. However,

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<v Speaker 1>the emphasis on this practice has also been the subject

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<v Speaker 1>of debate for nearly as long and has ebbed and

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<v Speaker 1>flowed in the extent to which there are requirements for

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<v Speaker 1>things like homework.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and so a new or we should really say

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<v Speaker 3>in the currentside, guys, because we've had this conversation before,

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<v Speaker 3>a new quote unquote discussion argues for less or no

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<v Speaker 3>homework in school, at least in elementary schools.

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<v Speaker 1>And while this does kind of sound like the makings

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<v Speaker 1>of a debate. There's actual science here, so we'll just

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<v Speaker 1>explore the arguments for and against homework and find out

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<v Speaker 1>what is suggested by science and the data that are

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<v Speaker 1>out there.

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<v Speaker 2>Are you ready, yes, let's do this.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's start by defining our terms. Homework is additional academically

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<v Speaker 1>oriented tasks assigned to students to complete outside of the

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<v Speaker 1>time spent in the classroom. I made up that definition

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<v Speaker 1>and look it up. But that seems like that captured

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<v Speaker 1>it for the most part. So if you disagree with me,

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<v Speaker 1>go ahead and let us know. But anyway, the point

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<v Speaker 1>is that you might have, for example, a student that

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<v Speaker 1>solves additional math problems after having practiced similar math problems

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<v Speaker 1>in class during the day, and they take those home

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<v Speaker 1>and there's like a worksheet and they have to complete

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<v Speaker 1>that worksheet, and the teachers who assign these things will

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<v Speaker 1>enforce their policy of assigning additional work by including the

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<v Speaker 1>completion and usually the accuracy of these assignments as a

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<v Speaker 1>part of the students overall grade for the class. So

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<v Speaker 1>like if they were just assign homework and the student

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<v Speaker 1>didn't do it and there was no consequences for not

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<v Speaker 1>doing it, then they would never do it, but because

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<v Speaker 1>they can lump these things in with the grade for

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<v Speaker 1>the class, they get to sort of hold the students

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<v Speaker 1>accountable to that expectation by leveraging those contingencies.

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<v Speaker 3>Right. However, many have pointed out that there's some problems

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<v Speaker 3>with this. There are there are plenty of problems with us,

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<v Speaker 3>specifically this emphasis on homework and why it's a problem.

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<v Speaker 3>One of the things is it's stressful. Surveys and studies

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<v Speaker 3>have found repeatedly that students and families of students that

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<v Speaker 3>they cite homework, particularly large amounts of homework exceeding about

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<v Speaker 3>an hour to be significant source of stress and fights

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<v Speaker 3>at home. Actually it causes quite a few problems there.

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<v Speaker 2>Did you have issues with homework with your kids?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean part of it was the

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<v Speaker 3>stress of getting it done. Part of it was trying

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<v Speaker 3>to teach when my kids didn't want to be taught.

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<v Speaker 3>Part of it was that we were working full time

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<v Speaker 3>and so it was an additional thing that we had

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<v Speaker 3>to do inside of our full time schedule that was

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<v Speaker 3>already pretty packed. So yeah, it was. It had been

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<v Speaker 3>a historically stressful thing for us, for sure.

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<v Speaker 1>Depending on how you slice said this, is like the

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<v Speaker 1>number one stressor cited by a lot of students in

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of places. So there's a legitimate argument to

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<v Speaker 1>be made here that there is undue stress caused by

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<v Speaker 1>the burden of homework, particularly as I said, as you said,

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<v Speaker 1>at large amounts of homework, And relatedly, there are correlations

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<v Speaker 1>between the amount of homework students complete and other adverse

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<v Speaker 1>health outcomes, including things like, as you might imagine, sleep

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<v Speaker 1>deprivation if they're staying up late to work on work,

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<v Speaker 1>or they're getting up early, weight loss, stomach problems, headaches.

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<v Speaker 1>In high school, some students reported that they would use

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<v Speaker 1>drugs or alcohol to cope with the stress and just

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<v Speaker 1>feeling like they have an excessive amount of work that

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<v Speaker 1>they're trying to keep up with. They might be doing

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<v Speaker 1>those things for other reasons and claiming homeworks for the reason,

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<v Speaker 1>but like they also there are people who have legitimately

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<v Speaker 1>used drugs or alcohol in high school, at least sometimes

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<v Speaker 1>because of homework.

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<v Speaker 3>It's also isolating a lot of time spent in homework

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<v Speaker 3>means less time spent with friends and family, and the

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<v Speaker 3>social isolation can have significant adverse impacts on students. I mean,

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<v Speaker 3>I was in ap classes and the amount of homework

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<v Speaker 3>that we would often have. Like I played baseball and

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<v Speaker 3>I was in AP classes, and I almost never saw

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<v Speaker 3>my friends during the week after school because I was

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<v Speaker 3>so busy with those activities. I mean, baseball was not isolating,

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<v Speaker 3>but coming home and then doing homework and then maybe

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<v Speaker 3>even working was not great. So the homework was really

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<v Speaker 3>a big slice of that pie.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, very much.

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<v Speaker 1>And this is actually really pointed out powerfully how significant

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<v Speaker 1>of an impact it can have that students are just

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<v Speaker 1>not getting like meaningful time with other relationships in their lives.

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<v Speaker 1>Particularly as you said, like AP students are like really

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<v Speaker 1>at the most risk for this.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Another thing that happens is when there's a lot of homework,

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<v Speaker 1>students are more likely to cheat. Several teachers have reported

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<v Speaker 1>discovering that when there are a lot of and lengthiest signs,

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<v Speaker 1>students are more likely to plagiarize, copy from each other,

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<v Speaker 1>try and find hacks for how they might solve their

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<v Speaker 1>like get through the homework or find other ways to

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<v Speaker 1>cheat to complete their homework and do so efficiently. And

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<v Speaker 1>if they've got more homework than they've got hour, like

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<v Speaker 1>more hours of homework than they have time between when

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<v Speaker 1>that was assigned and when it was due, then like

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<v Speaker 1>they're increasingly prone to find other ways to solve it.

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<v Speaker 1>And that's part of where AI I think has become

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<v Speaker 1>such a problem is because it's so fast at solving

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<v Speaker 1>some of these things. So it's understandable that if there's

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of homework that students are more likely to

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<v Speaker 1>turn to those systems so that they have more time

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<v Speaker 1>that is not spent doing homework.

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<v Speaker 3>Right, And it's even worse when there's ads to the

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<v Speaker 3>middle of the homework.

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<v Speaker 2>So bad.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, so we're back and we're talking about some of

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<v Speaker 3>the problems that come up with homework. One of the

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<v Speaker 3>things that comes up is that students are less likely

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<v Speaker 3>to do the homework at all. Besides the fact that

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<v Speaker 3>it's stressful, besides that it's isolating, besides that they're likely

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<v Speaker 3>to cheat, they're just not likely to do it. So

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<v Speaker 3>if they're defeated by spending hours doing homework, they may

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<v Speaker 3>not even get a very good grade for having done

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<v Speaker 3>their work. So not only did they spend allless time

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<v Speaker 3>extra time doing it, they may not even get a

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<v Speaker 3>good grade for it, And then they're less likely to

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<v Speaker 3>engage at all. And small, manageable assignments that are well

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<v Speaker 3>designed and don't feel like busy work are more likely

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<v Speaker 3>to be completed and be helpful than these larger assignments

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<v Speaker 3>that they may not do well on.

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<v Speaker 1>There's also this issue that we mentioned a couple of times, now,

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<v Speaker 1>is just this amount of work that this more is

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<v Speaker 1>not always better. Teachers have argued that students are already

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<v Speaker 1>spending six to eight hours per day in school doing

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<v Speaker 1>academic work, and they pointed out that if you look

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<v Speaker 1>at other expert performers, they tend to peak and show

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<v Speaker 1>diminishing or even reverse gains after about four hours of work.

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<v Speaker 1>These are professionals, experts who are very proficient at what

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<v Speaker 1>they do, and after four hours we're starting to see

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<v Speaker 1>their performance plateau or even decline, and we're expecting kids

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<v Speaker 1>to do double that in some of this some of

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<v Speaker 1>these cases, they argue that after six hours of a

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<v Speaker 1>school day, there's a little benefit they're likely to gain

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<v Speaker 1>from doing even more work afterward.

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<v Speaker 3>And then you've also got disparities in inequalities. So many

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<v Speaker 3>students from lower income families may have to go straight

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<v Speaker 3>to work after school, or go home to take care

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<v Speaker 3>of siblings or other family members or do chores. They're

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<v Speaker 3>less likely to have time and space to do homework

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<v Speaker 3>and less likely to have parents who can help or

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<v Speaker 3>who are around or available to help, whereas more affluent

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<v Speaker 3>students may have dedicated spaces, plenty of time for help,

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<v Speaker 3>and more highly educated parents, or even have dedicated tutors

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<v Speaker 3>available to support homework. So I was in ap classes,

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<v Speaker 3>I would come home from school, get dressed for work,

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<v Speaker 3>ride my bike to work because I didn't have a car. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>bring my backpack so that when I was on my

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<v Speaker 3>break at work, I was doing homework, and then would

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<v Speaker 3>come home and finish whatever homework I didn't finish after

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<v Speaker 3>working a five hour shift after school and then staying

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<v Speaker 3>up all night and then doing it all again the

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<v Speaker 3>next day. And that was my work routine. If I

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<v Speaker 3>wasn't if I wasn't working my midnight shifts at the

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<v Speaker 3>time too, and my parents were around, right, my parents

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<v Speaker 3>were around and super supportive and helpful, and I still

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<v Speaker 3>had to do that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And like there are people with wayless, way less

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<v Speaker 1>supportive situation than you had, Like maybe they have to

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<v Speaker 1>like do chores and take care of their siblings and

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<v Speaker 1>babysit and then they have to go to a job

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<v Speaker 1>and they're supposed to do homework. I'm like, it really

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<v Speaker 1>does have a disparate impact on people depending on the

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<v Speaker 1>resources and the situation they have at home. Right, So

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<v Speaker 1>that's some of the arguments there. There's also just like

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<v Speaker 1>there's some general sort of research and science to unpack here,

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<v Speaker 1>and this first one is not actually science, but there

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<v Speaker 1>are some recommendations from professionals. So the National Education Association

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<v Speaker 1>and the Natural Parent Teacher Association both recommend a rubric

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<v Speaker 1>for thinking about homework that is ten minutes of homework

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<v Speaker 1>per day per grade, which means if you're in first grade,

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<v Speaker 1>you get ten minutes of homework per day, twenty minutes

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<v Speaker 1>per day if you're in second grade, thirty minutes per

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<v Speaker 1>day if you're in third grade, and so on. Like

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<v Speaker 1>you can see how that scales up up to you

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<v Speaker 1>would imagine that about two hours per day if you're

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<v Speaker 1>a senior in high school. And while this isn't explicitly

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<v Speaker 1>supported by science, the science that does exist that sort

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<v Speaker 1>of is looking at what available or what homework guidelines

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<v Speaker 1>might be.

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<v Speaker 2>It is kind of close to that.

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<v Speaker 1>So specifically, what they found is homework and elementary school

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<v Speaker 1>has negligible benefits on students understanding of the material and

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<v Speaker 1>subsequent performance on academic testing. So ten minutes a day

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<v Speaker 1>might even be ten minutes more than is really worth

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<v Speaker 1>putting anything into that in elementary school there is just

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<v Speaker 1>not particularly those early early grades. There seems to be

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<v Speaker 1>very very few, if any, gains to be made by

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<v Speaker 1>assigning homework to those grade levels.

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<v Speaker 3>Right, but small amounts of homework can have parents more

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<v Speaker 3>well informed about what students are doing in school and

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<v Speaker 3>provide some opportunities for support that can be valuable.

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<v Speaker 1>And like it can be a meaningful bonding experience to

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<v Speaker 1>like the parents who work with the kids and that

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<v Speaker 1>sort of thing.

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<v Speaker 2>So like, there's not not.

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<v Speaker 1>Nothing there, right, the quality of the homework is sort

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<v Speaker 1>of paramount. They found in research homework that feels like

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<v Speaker 1>busy work does not produce meaningful gains in learning, and

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<v Speaker 1>researchers actually show that homework should be designed to extend

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<v Speaker 1>students thinking about a given subject, rather than simply repeating

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<v Speaker 1>the same exercise again that they did while they were

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<v Speaker 1>in school. So the architecture behind building these assignments is

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<v Speaker 1>going to be one of the really important factors in

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<v Speaker 1>determining how effective any assigned homework is going to be

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<v Speaker 1>and accomplishing some particular goal.

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<v Speaker 3>Sure, Now, even past elementary school, the amount of time

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<v Speaker 3>spent has a sweet spot for impact on the students.

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<v Speaker 3>So some studies show that by high school, after two

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<v Speaker 3>hours of homework there's a minimal impact on performance, and

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<v Speaker 3>after three hours of homework, performance metrics actually began to decrease,

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<v Speaker 3>although one study found no systematically clear data signal regarding

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<v Speaker 3>how much time spent on homework is appropriate at various grades,

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<v Speaker 3>So like, the jury's a little bit out on that,

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<v Speaker 3>still just a little bit.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So it's like they tend to find that, like

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<v Speaker 1>for really high performing students with really high expectations, up

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<v Speaker 1>to two hours you might see some benefits. And there

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<v Speaker 1>was like some thing specifically showing that if you spent

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<v Speaker 1>up to around an hour on like math, for example,

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<v Speaker 1>then they reliably retained that better and better on academic tests.

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<v Speaker 1>But again, you do reach a point of diminishing returns.

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<v Speaker 1>By the time you're passing two hours, it's starting to

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<v Speaker 1>plateau and maybe even decrease the likelihood that they'll show

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<v Speaker 1>high levels of performance subsequently to the time spent on homework.

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<v Speaker 1>So and even then, like the quality of the homework

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<v Speaker 1>is so important that it's more about how what are

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<v Speaker 1>they actually getting out of this assignment, not how much

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<v Speaker 1>time did they spend on it, although spending too much

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<v Speaker 1>time is pretty much always going to have adverse impact

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<v Speaker 1>is what the science shows, right, So what do we

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<v Speaker 1>think is the verdict here on this whole idea of

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<v Speaker 1>homework or no homework?

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, it sounds like a little bit might be

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<v Speaker 3>fine too much as a problem. It should be well designed.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean it sounds like if you account for all

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<v Speaker 3>those things and it's very intentional. I think if it's

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<v Speaker 3>well designed and it's like and it makes sense for

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<v Speaker 3>the student, then I think it should be considered. I

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<v Speaker 3>don't think it should be part of a grade because

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<v Speaker 3>I think that's unfair for those students to have those disparities.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, that's the way that I would look at it,

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<v Speaker 3>just to kind of like balance that playing field a

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<v Speaker 3>little bit.

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<v Speaker 2>That's totally fair.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think, you know, if you consider what is

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<v Speaker 1>the point of homework, I think there are parents and

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<v Speaker 1>administrators who think that the point of homework is to

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<v Speaker 1>do busy work.

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<v Speaker 2>They just want these kids to be busy all the time.

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<v Speaker 1>But I think that if you think about the point

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<v Speaker 1>of homework is to ensure that they get there was

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<v Speaker 1>insufficient practice that was done in the classroom and that

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<v Speaker 1>to be able to move at the pace that they

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<v Speaker 1>need to move, that that requires a little bit of

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<v Speaker 1>extra work, and therefore the work that they're given is

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<v Speaker 1>designed to bridge that gap.

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<v Speaker 2>Then it probably makes sense.

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<v Speaker 1>But again it's like, can we also need to create

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<v Speaker 1>the system so that everyone has an equal opportunity to

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<v Speaker 1>have participated in this meaningfully right? And there might have

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<v Speaker 1>to be either considerations around like some people just don't

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<v Speaker 1>have the situation where they can do homework, or else

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<v Speaker 1>we just create dedicated time in school. It is like,

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<v Speaker 1>there's extra practice time now because we know that that

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<v Speaker 1>way everybody has a relatively even access to this, and

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<v Speaker 1>there should be enough extra time to bridge whatever gap

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<v Speaker 1>we couldn't do in the time that we had, right,

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<v Speaker 1>So that would be my thought on that.

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<v Speaker 2>So, yeah, it's not that.

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<v Speaker 1>No homework is necessarily like the gospel, we need to

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<v Speaker 1>go that direction. But I do think that we should

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<v Speaker 1>be mindful and intentional around the homework and consider to

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<v Speaker 1>spare that might exist in those systems agreed, perfect, all right.

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<v Speaker 1>If you have thoughts on homework you would like to

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<v Speaker 1>tell us, you can email us directly, write us an

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<v Speaker 1>info at wwdwwdpodcast dot com, or we just on the

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<v Speaker 1>social media platforms and we do look forward to hearing

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<v Speaker 1>from you. If you would like to support us, you

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<v Speaker 1>can leave us a rating and a review, like subscribe

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<v Speaker 1>or join us on Patreon, and if you do that

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<v Speaker 1>then you get bonus content, add free episodes, early episodes,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'll read your name in the list of names

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<v Speaker 1>of people who support us at the end of our

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<v Speaker 1>full length discussions which come out on Wednesdays. Thank you

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<v Speaker 1>so much for recording with me today, Shane.

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<v Speaker 3>Hey, thanks for having me.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you to my team of people.

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<v Speaker 1>Is there anything else that I missed or that you'd

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<v Speaker 1>like to add before we sayah goodbyes. Nope, I think

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<v Speaker 1>I did not also say thank you all for listening,

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<v Speaker 1>So thank you all for listening. But otherwise, this is

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<v Speaker 1>Abraham and this is Shane. Why we do what we

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<v Speaker 1>do Mini is out.

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<v Speaker 3>Bye.

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<v Speaker 2>You've been listening to Why We Do what We Do.

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<v Speaker 3>You can learn more about this and other episodes by

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<v Speaker 3>going to wwdwwdpodcast dot com thanks for listening, and we

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<v Speaker 3>hope you have an awesome day.