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Speaker 1: Have you stopped by Ero dot net yet? A r

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r oe dot net. It is a podcast network, twenty

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different podcasts to choose from. Like The Daily Mess, we

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ask a question, then search for the answer and ninety

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nine point nine percent of the time you're going to

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be shocked by what's really out there and how we

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kind of bend the truth on what's really going on

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The Daily Mess on ero dot net a r r

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oe dot net. Enjoy your exploration. What is it like

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for you to be so open in the way that

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you're giving a lot of your energy to your listeners,

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But what fills you back up? Because I mean I

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can feel your emotion, your pitch, your volume, your tone,

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and right away as a podcaster and as a broadcaster,

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I go, okay, how is he filling back up? Because

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obviously you are helping people, But now what about helping lee?

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I've got lots of pursuits I do. I

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play a lot of pickleball with a lot of friends

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and play with my wife, so we enjoy getting out

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on the quart a good bit.

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Speaker 3: And then I also paddleboard and walk my dog every day, do.

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Speaker 2: A lot of things just to make sure that I'm

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taking care of myself.

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Speaker 1: The podcast is called Save the Marriage. I'm impressed with

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the fact that you keep it right there under thirty minutes,

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because to me, that's what a listener has right now

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driving to work or maybe being at work or wherever

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they are. They've got that, and you bring in so much.

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Speaker 3: Oh thank you. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: It's designed to be able to be something that someone

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can do in a short walk or short workout, or

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in a commute. I think that anything longer than that

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ends up being background noise for people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, those sleepless moments that so many people have in

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the way of having to make a choice, because we'll

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turn that thing into the world coming to it in

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a simple small choice, or a computer that cracks down

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and you're sitting there going the world's over.

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Speaker 3: The world's over.

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Speaker 1: But yet you give us some peace.

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Speaker 2: Well, that is the fact that our brain is built

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to catastrophize. I mean, that's just kind of a nature

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of what we've inherited from our ancestors, and so we

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go on alert mode and that happens pretty quickly because

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that's what kept our ancestors safe. But when we recognize that,

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then we have a choice on whether we're going to

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react to that or whether we're going to respond to it,

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and take a big deep breath and ask the question,

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you know, what's really going on? I always do a

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best case worst case. You know, what is the worst

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case for this? What is the worst thing that could happen?

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And then I asked my second question is what's the

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best thing that could happen?

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Speaker 3: From that? And generally reality somewhere in the middle.

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Speaker 1: See I call that defragging. Asking yourself the questions, then

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questioning the answers. To me, that's how you get to

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the core of a situation.

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Speaker 3: It does help you get there.

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Speaker 2: I mean, obviously, we're still going to have our own

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slant on things, and if you get three people together

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doing that same thing, they're going to still have different perspectives.

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But one of the things I think is helpful is

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to just slow down that immediate reaction that we're having

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and moved to something that is a little bit more sustainable.

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Speaker 1: You put a lot of focus on self driven growths

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as well as communication. And right away, while I was

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doing the show prep, I go, aren't they one and

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the same or are they opposites? Self driven growth as

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well as communication.

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Speaker 3: They're not opposites, but they're not the same.

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Speaker 2: I think what you're communicating is so I think of communication.

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Speaker 3: Is just a way of delivering information. That's it.

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Speaker 2: So if you haven't done the work on yourself, If

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you haven't, if you're not regulating yourself, what you are

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transmitting may not be so healthy.

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Speaker 3: So we've got to make sure that you know your self.

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Speaker 2: Regulating that you're also and this is a big piece

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of that, saying you know, where am I responsible for this?

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Not I am all responsible for this, but also I

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am not at all responsible for this.

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Speaker 3: There is a place in there to say, you know,

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what is my role in this?

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Speaker 2: And then that can change how you're communicating, especially with

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somebody who's close to you, because that's the communication that matters.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's the interaction that you bring to this with

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with your listeners, because I mean even the interaction will

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take you to a website because you've got different programs

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that you've designed. I mean, you're no joke on this.

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This is the real deal and this is what it's

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all about.

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Speaker 3: Well, and that's part of my having been in this

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for so long.

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Speaker 2: My website went up in nineteen ninety nine and I've

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only continued to create things since then, so over time,

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it's just accumulative and some of the things that I've

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committed to do come out on a regular basis. So

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I do have articles that come out on my substack

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twice a week. I have a podcast that comes out

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once a week, and then I have the books and

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the programs that have really been designed to augment that.

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Speaker 1: So now, how are you only doing one a week

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when you know that the world of marriage is constantly evolving.

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There's change, change, change, change, change. You know, Lee, we

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would be sitting there saying, Lee, I need to talk

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to you every day, dude, come on, bring it.

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Speaker 3: Well. First of all, it's what's possible.

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Speaker 2: I have lots of other things called my name, But

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the fact is that human relating. I mean, we have

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different models of how we think about marriage, but human

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relating isn't new. And you know, here's the thing that

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I realized. Since I do that once a week, now

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we're at five hundred.

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Speaker 3: And eighty three episodes.

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Speaker 2: So you know, somebody starts to listen to me once

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a day, we're talking what ten years of listening before

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they catch up to the end or twelve years I guess.

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Speaker 1: I totally get that. One of the focuses that you

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do is on transforming marriages. Now in this day and age,

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My god, there's so much coming at us from every direction.

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I can't imagine what what you know you're building on

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and how people can take from that to learn how

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to peacefully transform their marriages.

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Speaker 2: And so a part of my material is hoping that

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people find kind of where they are in the crisis.

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Speaker 3: There are different lives levels of that. There are some people.

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Speaker 2: Who really are on the verge of divorce, and that's

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that's why I created to Save the Marriage System to

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help address that. There are also people that just realize

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they're kind of chronically limping along, and so that's why

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I've created some of the other materials, like my new

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on Pause app that's designed to help people navigate that

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and change their systems. I'm a big believer that we

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have to put systems in place to get where we

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want to get to. If you want to get in shape,

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you better have some systems in place on how you're

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going to get yourself to exercise instead of just going, well,

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you know it'll happen, because it won't.

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Speaker 3: And the same is true with what's important to us.

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Speaker 2: So if we get out of the habit of relating

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and in marriage, I call that hitting the pause button. Right,

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we think we've got to get back to life and

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get back to or get to parenting, and get to

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career success and get to all these other things. And

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when that happens, we pause the connection and the relationship.

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We create new systems or new habits of relating. And

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so part of what I try to do is help

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people say, you know the system that I've created, And

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many times people will say, well, I don't have a system.

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And my response is that that's a system. It's just

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not a good one. It's not a functional one. It

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is a system.

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Speaker 3: But if you work on replacing that back.

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Speaker 2: To the ways of connecting, then you recreate the systems.

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And so, for instance, that's the framework for the Unpaused

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app to help people create new systems in place for

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unpausing their marriage and getting back to the relationship.

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Speaker 1: So, now is this something that I can go to

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the place store and pick up on this app and

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then get started immediately.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So the easiest way to get there, because it's housed

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in another app, is to go to Unpauseyormarriage Dot com

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and then that puts your right to the app.

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Speaker 3: So, because I mean, I really think that's the problem.

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Speaker 2: People have paused their relationship, and so unpause your marriage

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is kind of the thing I'm trying to get people

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to do. Unpause yourmarriage dot com and that puts them

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right to where they can check out the help.

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Speaker 1: How many people, though, take that pause and they realize

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it's going too long, so they create a little bit

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of rough areas just to get the conversation started somewhere else.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's part So somewhere else depends on what you

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mean by that. But I do think that people are

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in need of connection.

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Speaker 3: They're going to find it somewhere. It's whether it's going.

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Speaker 2: To be helpful or harmful to the relationship, to the marriage.

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Speaker 3: We're just wired that way. Humans are in desperate need

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of connection and there's no way around it. So we'll

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find a place for it.

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Speaker 2: Whether it's in our kids being overly dependent on them

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for connection, and a job being overly dependent on the

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job to give you feedback, or coworkers, or an affair.

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Speaker 3: It's going to find its way into our lives somehow.

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Speaker 2: So the question we have to ask is where am

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I put that energy, right, How am I shifting.

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Speaker 3: That energy away from the relationship? Now?

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Speaker 2: There are people who, so to your thing of stirring

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things up. There are plenty of people who find themselves

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subconsciously stirring things up in the relationship, trying to bring

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life to it. They just don't do it in particularly

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healthy ways. They generally use arguments as a way of connecting.

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They confuse that argument with energy.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting that you bring that up, and

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right away my mind is going now because this is

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not just for young adults, this is not for middle

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aged people. But I can see that nowadays the silver

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haired people are divorcing quicker than I've ever seen in

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my life. Is it because they've held off until the

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kids go away? Or is it we're going Look man,

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I've been growing old with you for a while. I

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gotta go, or we got to fix this situation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it is, and some of both. I think those

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are interrelated. When people hit the pall's button, they often

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think they will get back to us when they retire,

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and by that time they are two different people on

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two very different paths, and they don't know they can't

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find a way back. There's just too much image done,

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too much disconnection done, and so we have the Great

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divorce is the kind of what they're referring to now.

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But you know, I think the space of that is

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because we've got an aging population. I'm not sure the

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statistics on who's getting divorced is changing as much as

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there are more people who.

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Speaker 3: Are gray haired to meet that.

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Speaker 2: It certainly is true, though, that we live in a

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time when people are more willing to say this isn't

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working for me.

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Speaker 3: I'm just going to bail.

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Speaker 1: Please do not move. There's more with Lee Bocam right

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around the corner. He's got an app, he's got blogs,

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he's got a podcast. He is Lee Bocam. Well, I'm

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the freak that doesn't want to go back to my

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wife back in nineteen ninety two. I like her the

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way she is today, the way that we've grown together,

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and so like when I see photographs or we talk

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about things that happened in the in the nineties or

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even the new millennium, it's like, you know, we're so

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beyond that. There is that a healthy way to look

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at your marriage or is it just one of those

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things where it's like you're doing whatever you can to

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keep this monkey growing.

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Speaker 2: I want to kind of note that you said you

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like who she's become, right, you like Sillar and you've

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grown together and that so one of the mistakes that

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people make is believing that they get to some endpoint,

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that they have finally arrived. That's a fallacy that we

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carry around, that we're supposed to have arrived at some point.

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Speaker 3: I don't believe that at all.

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Speaker 2: I think that we are constantly growing, whether we admit

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to it or not, we're constantly growing and changing our perspectives.

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And if we're not doing that in conjunction or and

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not not necessarily together with our spouse, but in conversation

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with a spouse, we lose track of where they are

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and where we are. We tend to think that we

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haven't changed. I had a person came to me years

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ago and he said, my wife keeps saying out change,

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and I need you to tell her I haven't changed.

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And my response is, if you haven't changed, what a loss.

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That's the normal way we go about things, and so

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if you haven't, you've missed the opportunity. So acknowledge the changes,

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but see that as a conversation point of it.

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Speaker 3: The way you do grow together and work together as

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a team.

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Speaker 1: Man, I would love to see the numbers of how

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many relationships are injured because these apps will sit there

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and say this is where your husband is or your

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wife is right now in the car, and it's like,

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that's a little bit too close.

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Speaker 3: Man.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I do think that there are plenty

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of people who feel like they want their spouse to

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know where they are. Then there are people who feel

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like that's an invasion, and that is a conversation point.

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If couples are both good with that, that's okay. I

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certainly would. My wife can find me on the find

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mine and me for her. But I don't you know,

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it's not like I'm going, oh, let me micromanage where

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you are. It's a safety piece if one of us

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were not around, especially for her, for me, since I'm

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often paddleboarding somewhere in the middle of somewhere else, or

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I'm on a long walk, and she's just like, man,

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I hope he's okay.

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Speaker 3: She could call me, or she could just take a

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glance and go, okay, he's fine.

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Speaker 1: You've got five critical resets that you talk about. I

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think this is amazing because is it through the power

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of choice that we have five critical resets? Or is

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it one of those things where Okay, let's get past

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A first, then we're gonna jump up to B. But

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we got to get through A and understand it first.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And so whenever we're faced with a reset, it's

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usually because we've gotten stuck, and the stuck places are

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pointing to places where we have stopped the growing, we've stagnated,

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and or at least half the team is stagnated. Sometimes

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the other person is moving and we don't always go

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forward at the same path. A lot of times one

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person will go, hey, wait, this isn't feeling right, and

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the other person's, oh, it's just a phase.

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Speaker 3: It's just a stage.

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Speaker 2: But the disconnection continues to feed on itself unless it's addressed.

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So you do a reset in order to get past

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that stuck point.

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Speaker 1: So do you bump into people though and cover subjects

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when it comes to the dos and don'ts. And I'm

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often wondering if there's a lot of don'ts that are

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taking place that basically create that place where you can

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you got to bump in the middle of the path,

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is what you've got.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I mean, you got to have both, right

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that you need to know what to avoid, but you

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also need to know what to move towards. That I

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think if a lot of times we're left with one

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or the other and information, it's like somebody says, don't

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do this, and the person's response is, well, so then

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what do I do?

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Speaker 3: You know, I don't have that anymore, so what do

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I do?

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Speaker 2: And conversely, a lot of times were said, we're told

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you focus on this, but they don't know where they're

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stepping in trouble along the way, And so you need

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to kind of have both of those what is the

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mirror of each other and choosing the better direction?

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Speaker 1: What are you personally learning from each one of these stories,

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because I mean, I mean, you're more than a messenger.

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You've either lived it or you're gonna sit there and

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say I'm going to prevent it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: That was one of my ways of struggling through this

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whole therapy training thing at the beginning of my career,

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when I realized how ineffective marital therapy really was and

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the only way I could find a way forward is

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to well, one, research what other experts were saying and

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finding in research, but also to ask the question what

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am I seeing in front of me?

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Speaker 3: You know, where are the stock points? Constantly and then to.

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Speaker 2: Basically have an experiment if we do this, what's the effect?

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If we do this, what's the effect? And to track that.

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So I spent a lot of time doing that tracking

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over the years, and part of what that does is

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that it tuned you to hearing the stories for what's

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behind it. You're trying to break down what's behind all

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of that so you can find a new path forward.

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We're pretty clear that some of the paths that therapy

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has well trodden didn't really make the difference. Communication theory

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didn't make a difference, So let's find some other ways forward.

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Speaker 1: Do you believe in the practice marriage? My first marriage

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went twelve and a half years. I'm currently at thirty

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three years. I always tell people it's because I had

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some practice.

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Speaker 2: So some people decide that there first and only marriage

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is their practice marriage.

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Speaker 3: You learn all the way.

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Speaker 2: Other people find that they have done the damage the

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first time. And here's the bigger problem I see is

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people never learn the lesson to escape that, so they

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get stuck. And we have a just resource shows that

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people have a tendency that if an issue came up

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in a marriage and they did not resolve it, it

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will repeat itself. You'll find it again. So practice doesn't

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ever make perfect right. Perfect practice like refining your practice

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and saying what do I need.

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Speaker 3: To learn from here? And you can do that, you

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know a lot of.

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Speaker 2: Times in the first go and just say, okay, we

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made some mistakes.

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Speaker 3: My family has always used this little thing.

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Speaker 2: We called it a rejo, and that's when you back

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yourself into a corner and you can either ask or

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be offered a redo.

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Speaker 3: We did it with our kids when they were growing up.

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You know, they would start.

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Speaker 2: Down a path where they got in locked into a

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power struggle and I would simply say, hey, do you

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want to do a rejo? And they would often do

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that because they knew they had hited down a one

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way alley to the end. And my wife and I

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do with each other, and the rules of that are

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that you go back to before you headed.

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Speaker 3: Down that alley.

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Speaker 2: You're not sticking with that alley walk. You're you're going

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back and saying, let's let's start there. This is where

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we were doing good. Let's start there. And if you

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do that, you have something to learn from, right, there

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is something that you go, hey, did how did that happen?

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How did I walk myself down the alley? How did

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we do that? And how can we do it differently?

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Speaker 1: Do you believe that marriages should be treated like businesses?

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Speaker 2: There are some ways that I think that that's an

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interesting metaphor so a business in most places I know

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in the world see it as an entity. It's a

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separate entity that exists, right, And so that entity. The

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more it is treated as a really a place, like

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you give it a home, you give it a business location,

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and you do advertising and you talk about that the company,

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the more real it becomes. It's still just a fictional

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entity that we make up. And the same is true

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in a marriage where you sign a license kind of

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like you do an incorporation, and you now have an entity, right,

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So you have an entity there, and.

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Speaker 3: The more you treat it real, the more real it becomes.

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Speaker 2: There are some other pieces, like a company how it

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deals with its finances, that our finances as a company

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is true for a relationship to a marriage, can say

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our in fact. Any other way of seeing it is

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what the psychologists in the money world.

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Speaker 3: Called mental accounting.

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Speaker 2: They're making divisions where there aren't actually divisions. So what

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happens when a company starts playing around with their money

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usually they get into trouble. What happens when a couple

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doesn't see it as our resource? They start fighting about

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what's yours and what's mine, and they get into trouble.

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So there are some definite parallels there. The problem is

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businesses are transactional by nature, and marriages are not transactional.

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Speaker 3: They're about connections.

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Speaker 2: So I used to do a lot of consulting with

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family businesses and I would go in and I would say,

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you know, you've got a hybrid here, and you've got

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to differentiate. The hybrid is the business. The family is

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about relationships.

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Speaker 3: The business is.

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Speaker 2: About profit, and profit is created by transactions. Relationships are

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created by connection. So when you forget that, you cross

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over and make it transactional. I have certainly met couple

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that run their business their their marriage like a business.

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It's very transactional. It's lacking in connection. They play a role,

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and some of them have said that's just the way

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it is. We like it this way. If that's their choice, yes,

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But the difference between business and marriage is the difference

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between the transaction and connection.

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Speaker 1: My god, I got to get people to your website

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to find out more about your blogs, the podcast, the app.

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00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:27,319
I mean, you're so actively involved. Where can they go

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to get this journey started and then send you emails

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and say, my god, it works. Dude, Lee, You're like

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the miracle worker.

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Speaker 2: So the easiest place to define a couple of resources

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to go to save themarriage dot com slash podcast. Save

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the marriage dot com slash podcast, because here we are,

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you know, kind of in the podcast world, and that

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gives access to the system for people who really find

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themselves at a crisis.

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Speaker 3: It also gives a connection to that on pause app.

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Speaker 2: But there is another piece, and that is to help

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people figure out where they are. It's an assessment, have

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00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,559
a GPS assessment, and they can figure out if they're at.

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Speaker 3: Green light, yellow light, or red light.

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Speaker 2: And red light just means you might need to pause

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here and figure out what damage there is and what

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can happen. The yellow light just means there are some

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issues here you need to be aware of. Green light

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is let's get you out of the pause mode and

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onto being happily married. But a lot of people can't

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figure that out, so they take the assessment and that

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walks them through it.

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Speaker 1: Wow, you have got to come back to this show

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more than just this one time.

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Speaker 3: Dude.

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Speaker 1: I love where your heart is and that is so

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important to me too, that I truly trust your heart.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, I appreciate that. I love to come back.

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Speaker 1: Excellent. Well man, you have a brilliant day today, Okay, sir,

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thank you too,