WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:02.520 Before we dive in, here's another show you can enjoy 2 00:00:02.520 --> 00:00:05.120 in the True Story FM Family of Entertainment podcasts. 3 00:00:06.400 --> 00:00:08.800 Ever wondered what happens when a Zoomer who grew up 4 00:00:08.800 --> 00:00:09.560 on the Clone. 5 00:00:09.279 --> 00:00:11.800 Wars, millennial, Anakin Defender. 6 00:00:11.599 --> 00:00:13.880 And a grumpy old gen Xer walking to a canteen 7 00:00:13.919 --> 00:00:14.960 and at talk Star Wars. 8 00:00:15.279 --> 00:00:16.679 Then we've got the podcast for you. 9 00:00:16.920 --> 00:00:19.399 Star Wars Generations is a place for fans of all 10 00:00:19.440 --> 00:00:22.440 backgrounds to come together talk about what we love the franchise 11 00:00:22.600 --> 00:00:24.039 and what we can learn from each other. 12 00:00:24.559 --> 00:00:26.839 With so much new Star Wars content coming out, we 13 00:00:26.879 --> 00:00:28.960 take a deep dive into all of it. We talk 14 00:00:29.079 --> 00:00:31.359 stories and characters, what we learned about the Force and 15 00:00:31.359 --> 00:00:34.759 the Empire, Republics old and new, and how each story 16 00:00:34.759 --> 00:00:36.359 adds to the larger picture. 17 00:00:37.200 --> 00:00:40.359 Besides episode by episode coverage of the new shows, we've 18 00:00:40.399 --> 00:00:41.159 been going. 19 00:00:40.920 --> 00:00:42.759 Back to watch the movies and release order. 20 00:00:43.399 --> 00:00:46.479 We talk about Star Wars novels and video games, along 21 00:00:46.479 --> 00:00:48.079 with fam content and cosplay. 22 00:00:49.039 --> 00:00:51.640 And with each episode, we're just starting the conversation and 23 00:00:51.679 --> 00:00:54.399 we hope you jump in. We'll read your feedback, answer 24 00:00:54.439 --> 00:00:57.640 your questions. We've had full episodes dedicated to questions and 25 00:00:57.840 --> 00:00:59.119 raised by listeners. 26 00:00:58.759 --> 00:01:02.039 Like you find us under Star Wars Generations on your 27 00:01:02.079 --> 00:01:04.719 favorite podcast app or by going to the Ethical Pana 28 00:01:04.799 --> 00:01:08.200 dot com. May the Force be with you Now, this 29 00:01:09.239 --> 00:01:10.159 is podcasting. 30 00:01:12.040 --> 00:01:14.200 Hey, there are true believers. Andy Nelson here from the 31 00:01:14.200 --> 00:01:16.359 Marvel Movie Minute Podcast with the rest of the team 32 00:01:16.480 --> 00:01:20.760 mate right, Kyle Wilson, Rob Cobosco, and Matthew Fox. This 33 00:01:20.840 --> 00:01:23.799 is the podcast where we dissect the Marvel cinematic universe, 34 00:01:23.840 --> 00:01:26.760 one minute at a time, exploring every detail of this 35 00:01:26.840 --> 00:01:28.359 epic superhero franchise. 36 00:01:28.680 --> 00:01:31.319 In our season, looking at Ironman three, we're gonna mix 37 00:01:31.359 --> 00:01:31.920 things up a bit. 38 00:01:32.239 --> 00:01:32.640 That's right. 39 00:01:32.719 --> 00:01:34.439 Rob and I are your guide, but instead of our 40 00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:37.400 usual minute by minute format, we dive into five minutes 41 00:01:37.439 --> 00:01:39.439 of the film in each weekly episode. 42 00:01:39.519 --> 00:01:42.239 It's a totally new approach, but one that still allows 43 00:01:42.319 --> 00:01:45.280 us to explore all the depth and detail that makes 44 00:01:45.319 --> 00:01:49.040 these movies so special, even if Ironman three isn't all 45 00:01:49.400 --> 00:01:55.359 that's special. Hold on, that's where you're wrong, extremists. Shane Black, Yeah, 46 00:01:55.719 --> 00:01:58.000 would you like to look at the Mandarin and Maya Hanson? 47 00:01:58.959 --> 00:02:02.359 So, whether you're a die hard Marvel fan or just 48 00:02:02.760 --> 00:02:06.760 love deep dives into movies, there's something for everyone on 49 00:02:06.840 --> 00:02:07.959 Marvel Movie Minute. 50 00:02:08.039 --> 00:02:10.479 Suit up and join us on this epic audio adventure. 51 00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:13.280 You can find us a true story dot FM or 52 00:02:13.280 --> 00:02:16.000 by searching Marvelmovie Minute on your favorite podcatcher. 53 00:02:16.159 --> 00:02:19.400 Because in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, every minute is packed 54 00:02:19.400 --> 00:02:20.080 with excitement. 55 00:02:20.479 --> 00:02:37.439 Enough said, Hello and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. 56 00:02:37.840 --> 00:02:40.280 Today, we're kicking off something we've been talking about doing 57 00:02:40.319 --> 00:02:44.199 for far too long, our special members only series on 58 00:02:44.439 --> 00:02:47.919 the fundamental ethical questions that come up all the time 59 00:02:47.960 --> 00:02:51.199 in Superhero Ethics. Now, if you're listening to this and 60 00:02:51.199 --> 00:02:53.159 you're not a member, you're probably thinking what's going on. 61 00:02:53.719 --> 00:02:56.039 Because this is the first one of these episodes we're doing, 62 00:02:56.280 --> 00:02:58.639 we wanted to make it available for everyone to give 63 00:02:58.639 --> 00:03:00.360 you a taste of the kind of content that our 64 00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:02.560 members is going to get going forward. We're going to 65 00:03:02.639 --> 00:03:04.919 keep doing all of our awesome week to week episodes, 66 00:03:05.400 --> 00:03:07.319 but once a month, we're going to take a special 67 00:03:07.360 --> 00:03:11.240 time to step back from talking about one specific movie 68 00:03:11.400 --> 00:03:14.719 or TV show or thing, or even one specific, like 69 00:03:14.840 --> 00:03:17.719 very specific question and look at what are the kind 70 00:03:17.759 --> 00:03:21.360 of general questions that come up again and again and 71 00:03:21.439 --> 00:03:25.000 again as we look at superhero media along with all 72 00:03:25.039 --> 00:03:28.240 the other kind of genre media that have we've expanded 73 00:03:28.240 --> 00:03:32.400 that to include such as sci fi, fantasy, chess and kids, 74 00:03:32.479 --> 00:03:36.960 karate and all the like. And because on these topics, 75 00:03:37.400 --> 00:03:39.319 Because on these topics, we are going to be talking 76 00:03:39.360 --> 00:03:40.960 about all the things that we love to talk about. 77 00:03:41.000 --> 00:03:43.360 Here on Superhero Ethics, we are going to be talking 78 00:03:43.400 --> 00:03:46.479 specifically about superheroes quite a lot. To really help kick 79 00:03:46.520 --> 00:03:50.360 us off, I've brought back comic book expert Extraordinaire Jessica Plumber. Jessica, 80 00:03:50.360 --> 00:03:51.080 how are you doing today? 81 00:03:51.680 --> 00:03:52.360 I'm doing good. 82 00:03:52.400 --> 00:03:54.719 How are you good? I'm good? So really, thank you 83 00:03:54.800 --> 00:03:56.879 so much. You've been giving so much your time to 84 00:03:56.960 --> 00:04:00.479 the show. I've not figured out exactly how much of 85 00:04:00.800 --> 00:04:03.319 Jessica's time and going to dragoon once the Daredevil show 86 00:04:03.360 --> 00:04:05.520 comes out, but we will definitely be having Jessica on 87 00:04:05.560 --> 00:04:08.000 for a couple episodes around that time, so I really 88 00:04:08.000 --> 00:04:10.479 looking forward to that. Today, we're talking about one that 89 00:04:10.520 --> 00:04:12.240 I think goes to the heart of so many of 90 00:04:12.280 --> 00:04:14.599 the things we've talked about, which is the idea of 91 00:04:14.680 --> 00:04:19.560 vengeance and the role that vengeance plays in our superhero 92 00:04:19.680 --> 00:04:22.160 and science fiction media like that. And we're talking about 93 00:04:22.240 --> 00:04:26.480 vengeance as a motivation for a hero, for a motivation 94 00:04:26.560 --> 00:04:29.759 for a villain or an anti hero, the role, how 95 00:04:29.800 --> 00:04:33.120 we think about it, and things like that, and in 96 00:04:33.199 --> 00:04:35.639 further framing the discussion we're about to have and why 97 00:04:35.639 --> 00:04:39.240 we chose vengeance for this particular month, I think it's 98 00:04:39.279 --> 00:04:41.120 important that I kind of take a step back and 99 00:04:41.160 --> 00:04:43.920 talk about like why we like doing especially I like 100 00:04:44.040 --> 00:04:48.240 doing this question this topic of superhero ethics, And part 101 00:04:48.240 --> 00:04:50.639 of it's because for me, like these are kind of 102 00:04:50.639 --> 00:04:53.759 fun trolley problems talking about you know, like, well, you know, 103 00:04:53.839 --> 00:04:56.079 what do you do with a superpowered person and the 104 00:04:56.160 --> 00:04:58.759 jail system or you know, kind of person with telepathy 105 00:04:58.800 --> 00:05:01.959 play poker? Like I mean, there are fun intellectual exercises. 106 00:05:02.920 --> 00:05:06.319 But as I've said many times, what I love most 107 00:05:06.319 --> 00:05:09.519 about superheroes, about science fiction, about any of this kind 108 00:05:09.519 --> 00:05:11.959 of media is when it holds up a mirror to 109 00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:15.360 our own world, When it takes an issue from our 110 00:05:15.399 --> 00:05:18.680 own world and says, okay, well let's use the context 111 00:05:18.720 --> 00:05:22.680 of superheroes or something like that and change things, but still, 112 00:05:22.759 --> 00:05:24.600 you know, give you a chance to think about something 113 00:05:24.639 --> 00:05:26.920 in a new way. For example, the way you know, 114 00:05:27.279 --> 00:05:30.160 the X Men comics have at times been a metaphor 115 00:05:30.199 --> 00:05:33.319 for racism or a metaphor for LGBT issues or things 116 00:05:33.399 --> 00:05:35.279 like that, depending on the different times it was used. 117 00:05:35.879 --> 00:05:39.040 So before we start talking about vengeance specifically, just kind 118 00:05:39.040 --> 00:05:41.399 of this general idea of these fundamental questions, what are 119 00:05:41.439 --> 00:05:43.439 other kind of questions that are of interest to you 120 00:05:43.480 --> 00:05:45.720 all or that you see coming up again and again 121 00:05:45.759 --> 00:05:47.639 in the media we talk about. 122 00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:52.079 This is sort of related to today's topic. But one 123 00:05:52.079 --> 00:05:54.160 thing that I think about a lot is. 124 00:05:56.480 --> 00:06:00.480 Who going to say? 125 00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:04.600 Who gives superheroes permission to do what they do? That 126 00:06:04.680 --> 00:06:06.959 might not be the best way of framing it, but 127 00:06:07.120 --> 00:06:12.360 like what authority do they have? And is it okay 128 00:06:12.399 --> 00:06:15.079 that they're taking that authority on themselves? I think Civil 129 00:06:15.120 --> 00:06:21.160 War is a huge example of how that gets really messy. 130 00:06:21.240 --> 00:06:21.680 But like. 131 00:06:23.279 --> 00:06:28.160 There are plenty of stories where characters are going into 132 00:06:28.480 --> 00:06:32.480 countries that they are not citizens of and involving themselves 133 00:06:32.480 --> 00:06:36.240 in the politics and governance of those countries. Like do 134 00:06:36.279 --> 00:06:39.199 they have a right to do that? Do they have 135 00:06:39.240 --> 00:06:41.040 an obligation to do that? If there are human. 136 00:06:40.920 --> 00:06:42.240 Rights violations at play? 137 00:06:42.279 --> 00:06:45.319 Like there's these are big questions and there's a lot 138 00:06:45.480 --> 00:06:47.360 that we can talk about there. 139 00:06:47.720 --> 00:06:50.560 For sure, For sure. Yeah. 140 00:06:50.680 --> 00:06:53.800 I mean when we're talking about these things, there's a 141 00:06:53.879 --> 00:06:59.399 question of law, like whose laws, And even if we're 142 00:06:59.439 --> 00:07:03.279 just talking about human law, there are different countries. There 143 00:07:03.319 --> 00:07:07.279 are international organizations that are kind of conglomerates, like the 144 00:07:07.360 --> 00:07:12.040 United Nations, that decree things to be against the law, 145 00:07:12.519 --> 00:07:16.879 and yet you know, some people defy that, or some 146 00:07:17.920 --> 00:07:21.160 countries maybe are so powerful that no one can enforce 147 00:07:22.040 --> 00:07:25.000 the laws is they are written right. And I think 148 00:07:25.040 --> 00:07:29.519 a similar thing comes up in especially in superhero media, 149 00:07:29.600 --> 00:07:34.319 because these beings are often so powerful that the humans 150 00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:38.120 are powerless against them, and it's like, well, you're doing 151 00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:41.000 stuff that is against the law, but we can't actually 152 00:07:41.000 --> 00:07:43.759 stop you. So I think it brings up a question 153 00:07:43.800 --> 00:07:48.560 of does the law matter? Like power makes right is 154 00:07:48.560 --> 00:07:50.639 a thing that comes up a lot in these situations. 155 00:07:51.120 --> 00:07:53.720 And that's why like Superman, right, when there are evil 156 00:07:53.839 --> 00:07:58.600 versions of Superman, like an Injustice, He's like, I'm just 157 00:07:58.680 --> 00:08:01.000 going to make my own law, and people are like, well, 158 00:08:01.360 --> 00:08:06.560 guess that's it. We're for living in a dictatorship now, right. 159 00:08:06.639 --> 00:08:08.560 Yeah. No, I think I think those are all great ones, 160 00:08:08.600 --> 00:08:10.480 and I think a lot of the you know, the 161 00:08:10.560 --> 00:08:14.399 questions of do we see superheroes as metaphor for law enforcements. 162 00:08:14.439 --> 00:08:16.399 Do we see them as metaphor for soldiers? Do we 163 00:08:16.399 --> 00:08:19.959 see them in something totally different? Ties into all that, Rikiana, 164 00:08:20.040 --> 00:08:23.319 you often talk about the idea of whether killing should 165 00:08:23.319 --> 00:08:26.040 be a part of superhero media or whether the importance 166 00:08:26.040 --> 00:08:28.759 of not non lethal violence being used, and I of 167 00:08:28.839 --> 00:08:31.480 course have questions about the viability of that. 168 00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:35.679 Yeah, well for me, like it really comes down to 169 00:08:37.320 --> 00:08:40.159 the media neess of it. And this is like an anime. 170 00:08:40.440 --> 00:08:44.240 Why I love it so much is that Japanese anime 171 00:08:44.960 --> 00:08:48.240 is you know, is enjoyed by older people, but it's 172 00:08:48.279 --> 00:08:51.960 still always like with a mind towards the younger audience 173 00:08:52.879 --> 00:08:56.480 and trying to teach certain fundamental lessons. So I really 174 00:08:56.600 --> 00:09:01.440 enjoy that an anime most well, I'll just say most 175 00:09:01.759 --> 00:09:04.399 of the protagonists don't kill, and that's like a very 176 00:09:04.519 --> 00:09:08.519 clear demarcation line between you know, the hero and the 177 00:09:08.600 --> 00:09:12.000 villain and the story, and I think it's an important 178 00:09:12.080 --> 00:09:16.399 lesson to draw from that media and to impart upon 179 00:09:16.600 --> 00:09:17.200 the audience. 180 00:09:18.440 --> 00:09:22.919 Right well, and still thought of like ohole, Like I 181 00:09:22.960 --> 00:09:25.279 got really excited about this, but I'm just going to 182 00:09:25.360 --> 00:09:28.159 throw out the ethics of time travel which is not 183 00:09:28.200 --> 00:09:31.039 really relevant to us, but like, should you go back 184 00:09:31.080 --> 00:09:34.919 and change things or should you not go back and 185 00:09:35.000 --> 00:09:37.200 change things even if it means that a woman you 186 00:09:37.240 --> 00:09:39.399 love has to die, which. 187 00:09:39.440 --> 00:09:41.559 Kind of seems like how that plot line always goes. 188 00:09:41.960 --> 00:09:45.279 Number two when the villain goes, we're not so different 189 00:09:45.360 --> 00:09:49.159 you and I, which they always do. And number three 190 00:09:49.360 --> 00:09:52.840 does a superhero create super villains? And please have me 191 00:09:52.919 --> 00:09:55.759 on if you do that one, because so mad. 192 00:09:56.480 --> 00:09:57.720 I think it's a really good one. You know, the 193 00:09:57.799 --> 00:10:00.360 vision line from Civil War of you know, do vite 194 00:10:00.360 --> 00:10:04.120 conflict and stuff like that, which is a really good one. 195 00:10:04.159 --> 00:10:06.840 And to me that those also tie into. 196 00:10:07.120 --> 00:10:10.159 I mean, Matthew knows the time travel is Mike, Yeah, 197 00:10:10.200 --> 00:10:12.679 so I'll always I'll always talk about that time. 198 00:10:12.759 --> 00:10:12.960 Yeah. 199 00:10:12.960 --> 00:10:15.159 Well, I think it does create lots of questions, especially 200 00:10:15.159 --> 00:10:18.000 with the ideas of you know, when you have timelines, 201 00:10:18.200 --> 00:10:21.480 is like erasing a timeline? Are you killing the people 202 00:10:21.480 --> 00:10:22.960 in that? You know? And I think that comes up 203 00:10:22.960 --> 00:10:26.720 a lot with also things like AI you know, Ages 204 00:10:26.720 --> 00:10:28.759 of Shield, the great plot line. So yeah, all these 205 00:10:28.840 --> 00:10:32.000 kind of great questions and I think, and like you. 206 00:10:31.960 --> 00:10:34.399 Were saying, very relevant to the real world. 207 00:10:34.240 --> 00:10:37.840 Exactly the exactly one exactly so, you know, and and 208 00:10:38.519 --> 00:10:40.279 it's with that relevance to the real world is why 209 00:10:40.360 --> 00:10:43.879 I think we're talking about vengeance today. And I think 210 00:10:43.919 --> 00:10:46.720 for many people it's probably not a far grasp to find, 211 00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:49.679 but just kind of spell it out. I think late 212 00:10:49.759 --> 00:10:52.480 last year, we had the killing of a healthcare CEO 213 00:10:53.600 --> 00:10:55.039 that brought up a lot of feelings for a lot 214 00:10:55.080 --> 00:10:57.200 of people about you know, how do we feel about 215 00:10:57.240 --> 00:10:58.960 you know, the healthcare industry, and a lot of people 216 00:10:59.039 --> 00:11:01.600 not really feeling too bad about this because of those 217 00:11:01.639 --> 00:11:05.120 feelings or praising the person who did that. And I think, 218 00:11:05.200 --> 00:11:06.480 you know, to be clear, we're not going to go 219 00:11:06.519 --> 00:11:10.639 into a deep analysis of all that. I think I'm 220 00:11:10.679 --> 00:11:12.480 pretty confident in saying all of us say that, you know, 221 00:11:12.559 --> 00:11:15.519 murder is wrong, killing is wrong, but we also understand 222 00:11:15.600 --> 00:11:18.519 kind of the wealth of emotions that this has brought 223 00:11:18.600 --> 00:11:21.080 up for people. And I think for me, the reason 224 00:11:21.120 --> 00:11:23.679 why that's interesting for us today is that what we 225 00:11:23.720 --> 00:11:25.639 saw was an act of vigilanteism in the real world. 226 00:11:26.039 --> 00:11:28.480 We saw an act of a punisher type of a 227 00:11:28.519 --> 00:11:31.320 person who has said, you know, for whatever reasons, like 228 00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:34.080 this is someone I decided was bad and I'm going 229 00:11:34.120 --> 00:11:35.759 to act on that kind of just go to what 230 00:11:35.759 --> 00:11:38.879 you were saying, like one person creating that own authority. 231 00:11:39.480 --> 00:11:43.679 And to me, my goal today isn't for us to 232 00:11:43.679 --> 00:11:47.279 decide the ethics of that. It's that I want us 233 00:11:47.279 --> 00:11:49.679 to discuss how those ethical questions play out in the 234 00:11:49.720 --> 00:11:53.080 media we discussed, because I think that helps shape how 235 00:11:53.120 --> 00:11:56.039 we think about these things and how we Because for me, 236 00:11:56.039 --> 00:11:58.440 at least, I've always been kind of fascinated that there's 237 00:11:58.440 --> 00:12:02.080 a lot of revenge fantasy vengeance fantasy type things that 238 00:12:02.159 --> 00:12:04.879 I can find really enjoyable, even though sometimes I'd be 239 00:12:04.919 --> 00:12:07.639 goot horrified of it happening in our own world. And 240 00:12:08.240 --> 00:12:10.600 so there's just so much there to play in. And 241 00:12:10.600 --> 00:12:13.480 there's got three fundamental questions I wanted us to get 242 00:12:13.480 --> 00:12:15.600 into today, and I was just gonna spell them out 243 00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:17.159 and go through them one by one, and the first 244 00:12:17.200 --> 00:12:19.919 being like, you know, how is vengeance a motivator for 245 00:12:19.960 --> 00:12:22.600 some of the characters we love? Why do we enjoy 246 00:12:22.679 --> 00:12:24.600 vengeance stories if we do, which I don't want to 247 00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:26.159 speak for all of us, I will admit that I 248 00:12:26.200 --> 00:12:28.519 do at times, and sometimes I'm troubled by that, sometimes 249 00:12:28.519 --> 00:12:31.399 I'm not. And then lastly, like, what are the differences 250 00:12:31.399 --> 00:12:33.159 between what we can enjoy on screen and what we're 251 00:12:33.200 --> 00:12:34.639 okay with in real life, and how do those things 252 00:12:34.639 --> 00:12:37.519 blend into each other. So let me first just kind 253 00:12:37.519 --> 00:12:39.039 of start by it. Let's kind of just throw them 254 00:12:39.159 --> 00:12:42.000 things out. What are examples you see? And we can 255 00:12:42.080 --> 00:12:46.399 focus mostly on superhero comic book media specifically where vengeance 256 00:12:46.519 --> 00:12:49.080 is an important part of the story for a hero 257 00:12:49.200 --> 00:12:51.360 of villain and anti hero anyone like that, and I'll 258 00:12:51.399 --> 00:12:53.120 throw out the Punisher. To me, the Punisher is a 259 00:12:53.120 --> 00:12:57.600 great example of there's often this kind of veneer of 260 00:12:58.080 --> 00:12:59.759 I'm doing this to make the world a better place, 261 00:13:00.039 --> 00:13:03.600 doing this to prevent these people from harming others. But 262 00:13:03.720 --> 00:13:06.720 also like Frank Cassel, you know, had his family killed 263 00:13:06.879 --> 00:13:09.639 and he was portrayed and he wants vengeance. What are 264 00:13:09.639 --> 00:13:11.600 other kind of examples do you guys see a lot 265 00:13:12.159 --> 00:13:13.000 or do you that think interesting? 266 00:13:15.600 --> 00:13:20.759 Well, you and I just did Full Metal Alchemist slash Brotherhood, 267 00:13:21.279 --> 00:13:24.679 and the character of Scar who was the survivor of 268 00:13:24.759 --> 00:13:30.720 a massacre slash genocide coming to the nation that institute 269 00:13:30.720 --> 00:13:36.720 at that tragedy and taking vengeance upon people soldiers from 270 00:13:36.759 --> 00:13:40.200 that nation for that I think was one of the 271 00:13:40.240 --> 00:13:42.840 most interesting parts of that show, and he was a 272 00:13:42.919 --> 00:13:44.000 very fascinating character. 273 00:13:48.600 --> 00:13:50.440 Yeah, I mean the Punisher is a big one for me. 274 00:13:51.200 --> 00:13:54.600 I feel like, if you scratch any superhero, you can 275 00:13:54.639 --> 00:13:57.679 find a story about vengeance, and it works for some 276 00:13:57.759 --> 00:14:00.279 of them better than others. And I have I have 277 00:14:00.320 --> 00:14:05.279 a lot of thoughts about vengeance as a structural tool 278 00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:06.759 and how. 279 00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:08.960 Like the difficulties that it causes. 280 00:14:09.720 --> 00:14:11.879 But the other thing that immediately came to mind was 281 00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:13.600 I don't know if either of you ever watched the 282 00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:18.240 TV show Revenge with Emily Van Camp from like fifteen 283 00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:19.080 years ago. 284 00:14:20.919 --> 00:14:21.759 It was great. 285 00:14:22.360 --> 00:14:25.440 My friends and I used to call it a revenge procedural. 286 00:14:25.720 --> 00:14:28.480 It's like very very loosely based on the Count of 287 00:14:28.480 --> 00:14:31.879 Money Cristo, but not really, and it's Emily Van Camp 288 00:14:31.919 --> 00:14:34.440 plays It's like what if the Count of Money Cristo 289 00:14:34.519 --> 00:14:34.919 was set in. 290 00:14:34.840 --> 00:14:37.080 The Hampton's Fair And. 291 00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:40.080 Emily Van Camp plays this woman who, like as a child, 292 00:14:40.159 --> 00:14:43.720 her father was framed for funding terrorists by these rich 293 00:14:43.759 --> 00:14:46.720 Hampton's people, and so she's come back to the Hamptons 294 00:14:46.759 --> 00:14:51.039 under a false name to destroy their lives systematically. And 295 00:14:51.919 --> 00:14:55.720 it was so over the top ridiculous and so much fun. 296 00:14:56.360 --> 00:14:58.159 Well, and that point you just made I think actually 297 00:14:58.200 --> 00:14:59.919 ties into something you were saying a little bit ago 298 00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:02.639 wreaky about anime, and something I think we're gonna talk 299 00:15:02.679 --> 00:15:05.399 about a lot is that. I think, for me, at least, 300 00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:08.480 my feeling about how I view vengeance, particularly from a 301 00:15:08.519 --> 00:15:11.360 hero type, has a lot to do with how seriously 302 00:15:11.399 --> 00:15:13.000 I'm being asked to take it. And then sometimes I 303 00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:15.320 feel like the more ridiculous it is, the more over 304 00:15:15.360 --> 00:15:18.200 the top it is. I've often talked about the movie Desperado, 305 00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:22.879 which I absolutely love, which is one a brutal murder 306 00:15:22.879 --> 00:15:26.519 spree for vengeance, but it's played so much for humor. 307 00:15:27.080 --> 00:15:32.320 You know, the the a guy gets shot and a 308 00:15:32.919 --> 00:15:38.200 criminal baddie gets killed because they shoot the ceiling fan 309 00:15:38.320 --> 00:15:41.360 that's above him and it hits him. And you see this, 310 00:15:41.360 --> 00:15:44.200 this shot of the fan continuing to go because the 311 00:15:44.279 --> 00:15:46.679 motor hasn't stopped, hitting this dead guy in the face. 312 00:15:47.240 --> 00:15:49.679 I say that it sounds horrific. If you want, you 313 00:15:49.720 --> 00:15:53.360 could shoot that as a horrific scene. But in Desperado 314 00:15:53.840 --> 00:15:57.240 it's done purely for comedy, and there are times when 315 00:15:57.240 --> 00:15:58.639 I'm like, why in the world I'm not laughing at this? 316 00:15:58.840 --> 00:16:01.039 Oh wait, there's Antonio ben Eras in Black Leather. I'm 317 00:16:01.039 --> 00:16:03.639 not thinking anymore. You know, that's the whole point of 318 00:16:03.639 --> 00:16:04.320 that movie. 319 00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:08.519 I mean, kill Bill. It's not a comedy, but it is. 320 00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:11.840 It also steers very hard into being as over the 321 00:16:11.879 --> 00:16:15.279 top as possible, so you stop taking the violence seriously. 322 00:16:15.600 --> 00:16:17.159 I think those are all great examples. I think one 323 00:16:17.159 --> 00:16:19.159 of the one that I see a lot in particularly 324 00:16:19.240 --> 00:16:21.480 in Batman, but I think I've also seen this with Arrow, 325 00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:25.080 A Bunch and others, is when you have a character 326 00:16:25.120 --> 00:16:28.639 who is a vigilante, who is their claim is that 327 00:16:28.679 --> 00:16:31.559 they're doing for justice. It does seem like a lot 328 00:16:31.559 --> 00:16:35.240 of times the writers will introduce another character who is 329 00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:38.000 more on the vengeance side as kind of a foil 330 00:16:38.039 --> 00:16:41.639 to our hero. And Batman Mask of the Phantasm is 331 00:16:41.679 --> 00:16:43.799 one of my favorite examples of this, but I think 332 00:16:43.840 --> 00:16:47.039 you also see it in Birds of Prey with the 333 00:16:47.559 --> 00:16:50.639 Huntress character kind of shifting from a vengeance and then 334 00:16:50.679 --> 00:16:52.559 having her kind of redemption as she moves more into 335 00:16:52.600 --> 00:16:56.279 a justice mindset. Talk about that in terms of how 336 00:16:56.320 --> 00:16:58.000 you guys feel about this kind of examples of where 337 00:16:58.440 --> 00:17:03.559 vengeance is used as the our hero could fall into that. 338 00:17:03.679 --> 00:17:05.279 So we're gonna show the an example of someone who 339 00:17:05.279 --> 00:17:06.680 does that to keep them away from it. 340 00:17:08.599 --> 00:17:13.599 Well, this kind of encapsulates what I've been thinking about 341 00:17:13.640 --> 00:17:17.119 on this topic, which is the question of when does 342 00:17:17.240 --> 00:17:21.480 vengeance end? Because you all mentioned the Punisher. I believe 343 00:17:21.519 --> 00:17:24.440 his family was killed by some crime boss, and so 344 00:17:25.079 --> 00:17:27.759 like in the Punisher movie, we see him go after 345 00:17:27.799 --> 00:17:31.440 the crime boss, gain vengeance by killing him and his minions, 346 00:17:31.880 --> 00:17:35.160 and then the movie ends. But like for comic books 347 00:17:35.319 --> 00:17:39.680 that the story keeps going. He keeps doing stuff no 348 00:17:39.720 --> 00:17:44.359 longer against the people who personally harmed him and his family. 349 00:17:44.920 --> 00:17:48.039 So is his vengeance over and what is he doing 350 00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:48.480 after that? 351 00:17:48.640 --> 00:17:48.799 Right? 352 00:17:48.960 --> 00:17:53.599 Like, that's kind of my question about vengeance and justice 353 00:17:53.799 --> 00:17:56.559 because after that, I think we can argue that Frank 354 00:17:56.599 --> 00:18:00.680 Castle is pursuing justice in a kind of way to 355 00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:04.559 prevent other similar tragedies from happening. I guess, like a 356 00:18:04.599 --> 00:18:08.400 preventative justice or vengeance on behalf of other people who 357 00:18:08.480 --> 00:18:12.759 have been wrong perhaps, But it is that still vengeance 358 00:18:12.799 --> 00:18:13.359 at that point. 359 00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:16.519 And I think the Punisher is a really interesting character 360 00:18:16.599 --> 00:18:19.960 to bring up in that context of like is he 361 00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:23.480 a cautionary tale for other heroes Because the answer to 362 00:18:23.559 --> 00:18:26.000 that depends entirely on whose name. 363 00:18:25.839 --> 00:18:28.200 Is on the cover of the comic book. Yeah, so 364 00:18:28.759 --> 00:18:29.559 if he's showing up. 365 00:18:29.480 --> 00:18:32.720 In a Spider Man or Daredevil comic, then he's absolutely 366 00:18:32.759 --> 00:18:34.799 in the wrong and he's a cautionary tale and they 367 00:18:34.799 --> 00:18:38.680 can't cross that line. There's literally a Daredevil story where 368 00:18:39.079 --> 00:18:42.720 Daredevil goes to jail and the Punisher gets himself arrested 369 00:18:42.759 --> 00:18:44.839 and sent to jail so he can be like, don't 370 00:18:44.839 --> 00:18:48.079 be like me. It's very funny. But if it's a 371 00:18:48.079 --> 00:18:52.279 Punisher story, then all of a sudden, Matt Murdocher Peter 372 00:18:52.359 --> 00:18:57.880 Parker is ridiculous and naive and they're completely wrong about everything, 373 00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:00.200 and the Punisher is going to kick their ass. So 374 00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:03.640 it really is very much about framing. 375 00:19:05.720 --> 00:19:08.720 Well. And it's funny that you say whose name is 376 00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:10.720 on the comic book because what I felt you were 377 00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:12.640 going to say was whose name is on the Netflix 378 00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:16.920 MCU show, because I think that perhaps my favorite scene 379 00:19:16.960 --> 00:19:20.000 in all of the Netflix MCU and not my favorite, 380 00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:22.799 definitely in the top five. He is the Punisher in 381 00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:27.160 the Daredevil TV show where he's pushing Daredevil on. You know, 382 00:19:27.680 --> 00:19:30.000 you arrest people and then they go to jail and 383 00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:33.319 they get out when I kill them and they never 384 00:19:33.359 --> 00:19:36.559 get back up. I'm butchering the line, but something like that, 385 00:19:36.599 --> 00:19:41.200 and it's this wonderful moment yea, yeah, yeah, exactly, and 386 00:19:41.240 --> 00:19:44.200 where we you know, And he's, uh, why can't remember 387 00:19:44.200 --> 00:19:48.640 the name of the actor who plays Frank Castle phenomenal 388 00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:52.000 at that and I I disagree with him, but he's 389 00:19:52.119 --> 00:19:53.960 so close to convincing me, and I get that he's 390 00:19:53.960 --> 00:19:56.599 so close convincing man. And then we had the Punisher 391 00:19:56.640 --> 00:20:00.400 TV show, which I liked, but frankly, by the end, 392 00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:02.720 I couldn't believe him as a hero anymore because I 393 00:20:02.759 --> 00:20:05.119 thought he was too far into vengeance. And we had 394 00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:07.839 some great discussions about that, and I think you're right. Yeah, 395 00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:11.400 it's that when he's there for Daredevil, he's the foil 396 00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:15.960 for Daredevil, but when he has his own show. And 397 00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:17.359 this is kind of a related question I want to 398 00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:19.880 talk about, which is like, is is Vengeon something that 399 00:20:19.880 --> 00:20:21.839 should be for heroes, for anti heroes, for villains or 400 00:20:21.880 --> 00:20:24.279 all three? Because for me, at least with a Punisher, 401 00:20:25.119 --> 00:20:27.799