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<v Speaker 1>Thank you for joining me on a commitment to reality.

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<v Speaker 1>I had a fantastic conversation with Frederica Matthews Green and

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<v Speaker 1>I can't wait for you to hear it right now,

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<v Speaker 1>all right, Frederica.

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<v Speaker 2>Hie Hi, Dave, it's good to see you.

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<v Speaker 1>Again, So good to see you. I'm so excited to

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<v Speaker 1>do this, and I'm so excited to do this with you.

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<v Speaker 1>Before we start, I just want to start by thanking

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<v Speaker 1>God for you.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, thank you, Thank you, dear Lord.

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<v Speaker 1>And from the moment that we met, you've been so

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<v Speaker 1>encouraging to me. If I ever have any questions, You're

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<v Speaker 1>gracious with your time, and I couldn't think of a

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<v Speaker 1>better person to start this journey with.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, thank you, Dave. I'm honored that you would choose

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<v Speaker 2>me to start the journey. I hope I can be

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<v Speaker 2>as good as you apparently think I am.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll see now, and I had a different way that

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<v Speaker 1>I wanted to start, but just out of curiosity, what

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<v Speaker 1>went through your mind when you saw the phrase a

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<v Speaker 1>commitment to reality?

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<v Speaker 2>I thought, I'm not sure what that means. I thought

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<v Speaker 2>as an Orthodox person, I guess actually, as almost any

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<v Speaker 2>Christian these days, we are seeing the decline of scientism,

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<v Speaker 2>as if science cancels God, that idea is on its

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<v Speaker 2>way out. But unfortunately, the new idea coming in is

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<v Speaker 2>people are crazy about going to haunt houses, using tarot

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<v Speaker 2>cards and crazy things like that. So what we would

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<v Speaker 2>hope as Christians is to draw them to actual reality,

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<v Speaker 2>where the spiritual realm is definitely real, and it infuses

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<v Speaker 2>our entire material realm. It's around us all the time.

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<v Speaker 2>Evil forces are seeking to influence us. It's good to

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<v Speaker 2>be aware of that. So when I think of reality,

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<v Speaker 2>I think that's what reality is. And here we have

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<v Speaker 2>the whole culture on this kind of making this sudden

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<v Speaker 2>turn from science as God to anything goes and let's

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<v Speaker 2>play around with it. And we're trying to halt them

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<v Speaker 2>right there in that foreigner and say, let's pay attention

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<v Speaker 2>to reality. Let's make sure you know what you're getting into.

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<v Speaker 2>Is that what you had in mind, because as I

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<v Speaker 2>said at first of that, I'm not sure what that means.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm just guessing that's what you mean.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Well, there's a lot there. More than anything, I

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<v Speaker 1>think the vital word is commitment, because reality exists whether

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<v Speaker 1>you accept it or not, and we live in this

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<v Speaker 1>time where people are so scared to challenge somebody else's

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<v Speaker 1>conception of reality. Right, You've got your truth and I

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<v Speaker 1>have my truth, and to contradict your conception of truth

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<v Speaker 1>is anathema. Yes, right, it's offensive. Right, And this whole

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<v Speaker 1>thing where you know to be loving and kind is

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<v Speaker 1>to accept. And as parents, both of us know that

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<v Speaker 1>that's not always loving and kind. No, sometimes you need

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<v Speaker 1>to rebuke with love, Yeah, but to say that's not

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<v Speaker 1>really how reality is.

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<v Speaker 2>An analogy that I often go to is if you

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<v Speaker 2>have a friend or relative whom you really love and

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<v Speaker 2>they smoke cigarettes, there's an appropriate time to rebuke. You

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<v Speaker 2>will be doing that in love because you're concerned for them,

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<v Speaker 2>but they are You can name something they're doing that

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<v Speaker 2>is harming. So I feel the same way about encountering

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<v Speaker 2>someone who's using a Weiji board or trying to predict

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<v Speaker 2>the future. They're doing something that's dangerous. As you say, though,

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<v Speaker 2>it's offensive when you call that out, and when you

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<v Speaker 2>deny that everybody can have their own reality. I wonder

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<v Speaker 2>if it'll just take tragedy, you know, Is it just

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<v Speaker 2>going to take repeated tragedy for people to understand how

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<v Speaker 2>dangerous this whole field is and apparently that that's the

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<v Speaker 2>situation that was going on in the time of the

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<v Speaker 2>early Church in the Roman Empire, and the thing that

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<v Speaker 2>was so distinctive about Christians was that evil spirits obeyed

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<v Speaker 2>them and then in the name of Jesus' evil spirits

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<v Speaker 2>would flee. But they were already at least to the

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<v Speaker 2>point where they recognize there are such a thing as

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<v Speaker 2>evil spirits, and our culture is not quite good in

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<v Speaker 2>there yet. I think they will sad to say, yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>So, like I said, the emphasis being on commitment was

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<v Speaker 1>what really drew me in and the phrase caught in

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<v Speaker 1>my head a couple of years ago. Reality exists and

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<v Speaker 1>we need to commit to it because if we don't,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, there's no limit to the ridiculousness of how

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<v Speaker 1>our lives will be. And I think we're seeing that

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<v Speaker 1>on some level in modern culture, kind of the listlessness,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, when you live outside of reality, you know.

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<v Speaker 1>I feel like I don't think it's out of bounds

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<v Speaker 1>to say that there's a collective unease that we're all experiencing,

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<v Speaker 1>that we all kind of can tell that something's not

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<v Speaker 1>quite right. And I think that my assessment is that

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<v Speaker 1>we have lost touch with reality.

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<v Speaker 2>Now, as you're talking about this, I think it actually

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<v Speaker 2>connects to the epidemic of loneliness. That is, if everybody

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<v Speaker 2>has their own personal reality and they're going to be

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<v Speaker 2>defensive about that and proud about that, they are essentially

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<v Speaker 2>rejecting community reality. And that's what you mean by commitment

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<v Speaker 2>that it's not just a commitment to my own imaginary reality.

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<v Speaker 2>It's that you and I are facing the same reality.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, we can say do you see this

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<v Speaker 2>going on? And you say, yeah, I see that too.

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<v Speaker 2>That because we have the mind of Christ, the News

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<v Speaker 2>of Christ, we're going to see the same things. And

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<v Speaker 2>I think that's the deeper The thing going on in

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<v Speaker 2>our culture is people wanted to be independent and not

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<v Speaker 2>be part of the community wanting to indulge them, and

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<v Speaker 2>advertising just pushes this constantly. You know, you're this unique individual,

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<v Speaker 2>so buy this mass produced product and prove how unique

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<v Speaker 2>you are. It's just crazy, but they are prey to

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<v Speaker 2>that because it feeds their pride, and I'm afraid it

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<v Speaker 2>will take some hard lessons before they realize there actually

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<v Speaker 2>is a real reality and we know it's real because

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<v Speaker 2>we all share it, and then be attracted back to that.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that's part of the problem. We're facing. Commitment

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<v Speaker 2>to community reality, shared.

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<v Speaker 1>Reality, something outside of yourself. You know, we're completely atomized.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, yes, something that exists, just like the visual world

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<v Speaker 2>out there that we can all agree on this. We

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<v Speaker 2>hear the same things, our senses perceived the same things.

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<v Speaker 2>The self indulgence is very, very attractive, but it's important

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<v Speaker 2>to bond with others. It makes you human and forsaking

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<v Speaker 2>loneliness to share that commitment to reality. Yeah, yeah, well

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<v Speaker 2>there's a lot to explore.

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<v Speaker 1>There is.

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<v Speaker 2>What it's going to be a journey, So yeah, you'll

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<v Speaker 2>be learning more and more about it that there's wisdom

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<v Speaker 2>there in that little package.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, we dove right in. But for anybody that's not

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<v Speaker 1>familiar with you, I could sit here and read your

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<v Speaker 1>Wikipedia and talk about your list of accomplishments and all

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<v Speaker 1>the books that you've written, and they're wonderful. But I

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<v Speaker 1>also find that to be slightly reductive. I always felt

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<v Speaker 1>very uncomfortable with the American conception of when you meet somebody, Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>you start with name, but then the second question is

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<v Speaker 1>what do you do too? As though that's who you are? Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>and what you've done, what you've accomplished, is noteworthy, but

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know that that's exactly what you would contextualize

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<v Speaker 1>as who you are. So if you could introduce yourself

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<v Speaker 1>to the audience, what's your story?

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<v Speaker 2>I've always felt a little sympathy to that question what

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<v Speaker 2>do you do? Because I think it what it really

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<v Speaker 2>means is what are you interested in? What do you like,

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<v Speaker 2>what attracts you, and what you do to make money

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<v Speaker 2>and pay the bills may not be that thing and

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<v Speaker 2>may be something totally different. So if you if the

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<v Speaker 2>question were something like what is dear to your heart?

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<v Speaker 2>I would say, for me, it's the Lord Jesus Christ.

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<v Speaker 2>I was very antagonistic to Christian faith in college and

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<v Speaker 2>in high school, and I had a very dramatic conversion

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<v Speaker 2>where I was when I was touring Europe. I was

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<v Speaker 2>in a church. I looked at a statue of Jesus,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, he just spoke to my heart so

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<v Speaker 2>suddenly and so profoundly that I'm like, I'm like an addict,

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<v Speaker 2>I like I need more Jesus all the time. And

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<v Speaker 2>I realized that that was not only a miracle, but

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<v Speaker 2>that somehow changed too. I was what I care about

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<v Speaker 2>what I love, what's dear to my hearts. It was

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<v Speaker 2>like being struck by lightning, I guess. And so the

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<v Speaker 2>thing that's most important to me is the Lord Jesus

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<v Speaker 2>Christ and getting closer to him. You know, I am

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<v Speaker 2>not just reading about Hi'm not just reading theology, but

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<v Speaker 2>somehow in my prayer life getting closer and closer and

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<v Speaker 2>closer and imbibing more and more of His presence. I

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<v Speaker 2>really am an addict, I guess. So that's the most

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<v Speaker 2>dear thing to my heart. And then second would be

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<v Speaker 2>from the time, even when I was a kid, I

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<v Speaker 2>knew I wanted to be a writer. I just loved writing.

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<v Speaker 2>Anytime a school assignment required it, I loved words. I

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<v Speaker 2>left learning more words and learning what they need. Then,

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<v Speaker 2>I guess from the time I was twelve, I knew

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<v Speaker 2>professional writers what I want to do, and I've been

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<v Speaker 2>blessed that I was able to do that. As you

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<v Speaker 2>were saying, I've written eleven books and updated my vita here.

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<v Speaker 2>I can't believe this, really, but when you count them

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<v Speaker 2>all up, I've published eight hundred and ninety five essays

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<v Speaker 2>in The Washington Post, the Philadelphia Inquirer, Smithsonian almost got

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<v Speaker 2>something in the New York Times once, but just about

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<v Speaker 2>all of this done. Yeah, well that's true. And the

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<v Speaker 2>editor filmed me and said, I really worked for this,

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<v Speaker 2>and I'm very disappointed. It was an essay that was

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<v Speaker 2>published by National Review eventually, and the title is Let's

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<v Speaker 2>have more taine Pregnancy, And so with that attention getting titled,

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<v Speaker 2>you'll find it on my website, frederickamging dot com. I

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<v Speaker 2>had so much fun writing. I always had, so that

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<v Speaker 2>is my primary public identity. And I've also done a

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<v Speaker 2>huge amount of public speaking, almost seven hundred events. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't want to do as much as that. I'm old,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know what it is. It's not the speaking,

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<v Speaker 2>it's the airports. I've just come to hate air and

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<v Speaker 2>now I live in a tiny town with a tiny

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<v Speaker 2>airport and it's even worse. So writing and speaking kind

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<v Speaker 2>of went together. And speaking was great because I try

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<v Speaker 2>out things on an audience and see how they responded.

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<v Speaker 2>So those are the things I do. But the thing

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<v Speaker 2>I love the most is this incessant attraction to know

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<v Speaker 2>Jesus better, and the Jesus Prayer has been an enormous

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<v Speaker 2>help for that. It has changed and changed over the years,

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<v Speaker 2>and I've learned more and more about how to get

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<v Speaker 2>closer to Jesus.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you've used both of your gifts, writing and speaking

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<v Speaker 1>to share that passion, and you really do have a

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<v Speaker 1>gift for both. I was introduced to you first through

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<v Speaker 1>your books and then through your person and then some speaking.

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<v Speaker 1>And I've joked to you that you could read the

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<v Speaker 1>phone Book and it would be at the very least comforting. Smoothie.

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<v Speaker 2>People tell me I have a comforting voice. Thanks, PETERA. Goad.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm glad I do. I When I first met you,

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<v Speaker 2>it was at your dad's chrismation, and it took you

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<v Speaker 2>a few more years and your sister and but I

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<v Speaker 2>was there for that crismation. When I met you, I

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<v Speaker 2>just sensed that I think. I came home and I

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<v Speaker 2>told my husband that son named Dave, he has a

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<v Speaker 2>lot on the ball. You know, he's going to really

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<v Speaker 2>produce something and expand and be really worth listening to.

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<v Speaker 2>So I saw that in you from the first time

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<v Speaker 2>we met, as busy as that begend was.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you for saying that. I appreciate it. I want

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<v Speaker 1>to start by telling you a story. It has to

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<v Speaker 1>do with podcasting. Years ago, when podcasts were a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit less ubiquitous than they are now. There weren't as many,

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<v Speaker 1>and so I remember I listened to Tim Ferris and

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<v Speaker 1>his podcast, and you know, generally speaking, you know what

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<v Speaker 1>you're getting. And then an episode came through and it

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<v Speaker 1>was Tim Ferris with Glenn Beck, and I thought to myself,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't want to listen to this. I hate Glenn Beck.

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<v Speaker 1>And then I started to think, well, I don't really

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<v Speaker 1>even know Glen Beck, but I've seen him on TV.

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<v Speaker 1>He's kind of angry looking and yelling or frantic about something.

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<v Speaker 1>I've seen his face plastered on books as I walked

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<v Speaker 1>through the airport, and he has this smarmy look. And

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<v Speaker 1>why would I listen to a podcast with Glenn Beck?

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<v Speaker 1>But I did, and an interesting thing happened. I don't

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<v Speaker 1>remember much of the podcast in terms of what they

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<v Speaker 1>talked about or the substance, and I remember thinking, Wow,

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<v Speaker 1>I had completely made a caricature of this person. And

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<v Speaker 1>some of that is his own fault, because he's a

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<v Speaker 1>public person, and that part of that is a caricature

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<v Speaker 1>a mass. Yeah, But through the process of listening to

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<v Speaker 1>him and his life, and I think that's the beauty

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<v Speaker 1>of podcasts and conversation period person to person is you

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<v Speaker 1>start to realize more and more about somebody. You start

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<v Speaker 1>to see their humanity as opposed to the caricature. And

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<v Speaker 1>as the process of listening to him played out, this

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<v Speaker 1>idea of him started to change in my mind and

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<v Speaker 1>I started to develop a warmth to the point where

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<v Speaker 1>now if I see him, I still don't know that

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<v Speaker 1>much about him, but his face pops up on the

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<v Speaker 1>internet here there on Twitter, and I don't feel that

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<v Speaker 1>same disdain, even though I don't remember much of what

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<v Speaker 1>he said, although I do remember one thing, and I

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<v Speaker 1>want to ask you it. Because I listened to him,

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<v Speaker 1>my whole view changed, which is the benefit of actually

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<v Speaker 1>listening to people instead of just projecting what you think

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<v Speaker 1>they are. Yeah, and he said something, And for years

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<v Speaker 1>after that it was one of those questions that when

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<v Speaker 1>I met somebody for the first time, I thought, Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>well this is really incisive. This gets to the core

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<v Speaker 1>of who somebody is. He said, I like to ask

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<v Speaker 1>people how is your soul? So, Frederica, how is your soul?

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<v Speaker 2>It's a wonderful question. My soul is content, and my

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<v Speaker 2>soul is joyous because my prayer times just get better

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<v Speaker 2>and better. I've gotten to the point where I have

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know how many prayer times in a day,

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<v Speaker 2>but in the middle of the afternoon, in the middle

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<v Speaker 2>of the night, I get up and say the Jesus Prayer,

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<v Speaker 2>with the Prayer of and all the other ones. It's

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<v Speaker 2>like I'm always being brought back into the presence of

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<v Speaker 2>the Lord, and I love him so much, so that

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<v Speaker 2>gives me contentment. Other than that, things in my life

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<v Speaker 2>and my family, my health, oh pretty good. I feel

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<v Speaker 2>like I'm being given time to prepare for debility and

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<v Speaker 2>maybe dementia, and I don't know what I'm going on

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<v Speaker 2>a ride that the Lord's going to take me on.

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<v Speaker 2>So at seventy three, I'm looking down the years and

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<v Speaker 2>you know, maintaining the strength to go wherever he wants

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<v Speaker 2>to take me. So yeah, contentment, I think is the

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<v Speaker 2>main thing.

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<v Speaker 1>And it's interesting because I started to think about that question,

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<v Speaker 1>or I started to think about Glenn Beck in that situation,

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<v Speaker 1>and that situation of being exposed to somebody and having

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<v Speaker 1>your mind changed through actually listening to them, and you know,

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<v Speaker 1>it's funny, I completely forgot the question. For years. I

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<v Speaker 1>would ask people, how is your soul?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 1>And it had morphed in my mind to a question

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<v Speaker 1>that you answered when I asked, who are you? What's

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<v Speaker 1>your story? A question that what I remembered him saying

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<v Speaker 1>was what makes your heart sing?

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<v Speaker 2>Hum?

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<v Speaker 1>And I used to ask people that quite a bit

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<v Speaker 1>as well, because I think, you know, okay, yeah, you

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<v Speaker 1>might do this to pay your bills, but what makes

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<v Speaker 1>your heart sing?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 1>And then the follow up question was what breaks your heart?

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<v Speaker 1>So you answered what makes your heart saying without me asking.

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<v Speaker 1>I wonder if you'd answered the second part, what breaks

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<v Speaker 1>your heart?

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<v Speaker 2>What breaks my heart is usually hearing of someone else's trouble,

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<v Speaker 2>and sometimes I feel like I hear something. And first

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<v Speaker 2>time I met my new GP, my PCP, here in

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<v Speaker 2>the mountains of Tennessee, I was sitting waiting for her,

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<v Speaker 2>sitting on the table using my prayer rope, and when

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<v Speaker 2>she came in, to my vast surprise, she had a

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<v Speaker 2>prayer rope around her wrist and I said, you're wearing

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<v Speaker 2>a prayer rope and she said yes, A friend gave

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<v Speaker 2>it to me at my husband's funeral. And it hit

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<v Speaker 2>me so hard, it was like a donkey kicked me.

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<v Speaker 2>In the chest and I just went, oh, And I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>she must have thought I was a nut, but I

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<v Speaker 2>genuinely couldn't speak for a minute. I just felt so

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<v Speaker 2>much pain over that, and I do think it took

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<v Speaker 2>a little a few more visits before she realized I

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<v Speaker 2>was actually not an insane person. But that's what breaks

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<v Speaker 2>my heart. Things like that break my heart. Cruelty, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>breaks my heart when I read about it, and especially

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<v Speaker 2>I worry about the perpetrator and the state of their soul,

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<v Speaker 2>and I pray that God will bring them to repentance.

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<v Speaker 2>It's more things like that. It's more like real people

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<v Speaker 2>or incidents than the state of culture. Because there's good

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<v Speaker 2>things as well as bad things happening all the time,

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<v Speaker 2>and there's so many how to clismic things approaching. We

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<v Speaker 2>don't know which one is going to hit first. It

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<v Speaker 2>may make all the other concerns, you know, just wipes

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<v Speaker 2>them away. They won't matter anymore. So I don't worry

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<v Speaker 2>about the big things. My heart breaks over these incidents

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<v Speaker 2>and these human beings.

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<v Speaker 1>One thing that I do want to talk to you about.

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<v Speaker 1>It might be possible that you haven't seen it, but

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<v Speaker 1>I think that you agree based on what you said

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<v Speaker 1>about the atomization the loneliness. I think something that's connected

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<v Speaker 1>to that is that we've experienced a large degree of

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<v Speaker 1>social atrophy that we don't even know how to interact anymore. Now.

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<v Speaker 1>I loathe small talk. I cannot stand small talk, and

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<v Speaker 1>I think anybody who's meta hanograph understands that we don't

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<v Speaker 1>like talking about the weather or anything inconsequential. We like

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<v Speaker 1>to get straight to the big things in life, the

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<v Speaker 1>existential questions. But I miss small talk because when I'm

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<v Speaker 1>in the grocery store, I feel like people can't even

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<v Speaker 1>look at you. I mean, cashiers don't look at you,

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<v Speaker 1>or they don't you ask them a simple question, and

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<v Speaker 1>they feel a sense of panic that they have to

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<v Speaker 1>interact with another person. I've experienced this so often that

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<v Speaker 1>I feel confident saying it. I'll be pushing the buggy

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<v Speaker 1>Southerners call it the cart in the grocery store and

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<v Speaker 1>someone will be standing there needing to get past, but

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<v Speaker 1>they just freeze. Historically speaking, I feel like we would

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<v Speaker 1>use words like excuse me or may I get past you,

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<v Speaker 1>but people just freeze and they stare. And I feel

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<v Speaker 1>that palpably as a sign of this social atrophy that

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<v Speaker 1>we're experiencing, that we can't even talk to each other

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<v Speaker 1>like that, and I fear what that means. If we

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<v Speaker 1>can't even talk about small things, how are we able

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<v Speaker 1>to talk about the big things in life, the big problems.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, and unfortunately people do talk about the big problems

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<v Speaker 2>in great ignorance and contentiously, and it just makes everything worse.

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<v Speaker 2>But they don't know how to relate to another human

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<v Speaker 2>being and have an open conversation where you're willing to

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<v Speaker 2>take in what the other person is saying. Yeah, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I have seen that and worried about it less so

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<v Speaker 2>now that I live in Tennessee and in a little

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<v Speaker 2>town in Appalachia and there is more interaction. We had

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<v Speaker 2>a funeral. Leaving the church and going the twenty minutes

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<v Speaker 2>to the cemetery, we saw other cars pull over for us.

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<v Speaker 2>We saw men get out of their car and take

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<v Speaker 2>off their baseball cap and hold it over their hearts.

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<v Speaker 2>I never saw that in Baltimore, never err and even

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<v Speaker 2>it's a divided highway, even on the other side of

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<v Speaker 2>the road, they were doing pulling over to show respect

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<v Speaker 2>for funeral procession. As we went to the cemetery, it

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<v Speaker 2>still exists in some places, and we do get the

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<v Speaker 2>chatty you know, cashiers who want to interact and have

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<v Speaker 2>things they want to tell you. And that's probably one

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<v Speaker 2>of the last islands where this still exists. It's the screens,

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<v Speaker 2>isn't it. It's people looking at their screens too much.

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<v Speaker 2>And something I noticed early, even in the nineties before phones,

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<v Speaker 2>when it was just computer screens, is that what you

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<v Speaker 2>see on the computer is so much more exciting than

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<v Speaker 2>what you see in your surrounding world, and so much

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<v Speaker 2>more authoritative, it seems. And you're seeing movie stars and

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<v Speaker 2>famous people, and they're interacting and having conversations, and when

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<v Speaker 2>you look away from the computer screen, it was all

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<v Speaker 2>so dull and familiar and pointless. Really, people in your

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<v Speaker 2>house you see them all the time, the people in

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<v Speaker 2>the grocery store. They're just the same as yesterday and

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<v Speaker 2>last week and last year. So I think there's something

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<v Speaker 2>about the draw of the Internet that is just so

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<v Speaker 2>much more vivid than exciting the daily life that has

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<v Speaker 2>seduced people into putting all their energy there in their masks.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, their persona and even more than their work,

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<v Speaker 2>you know. I wonder if that's the case, is when

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<v Speaker 2>people think of who are you really? Their work doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>really matter that much. For many people, they don't get

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<v Speaker 2>to earn money at the thing they really love. We

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<v Speaker 2>who do should honor that and respect that. Well.

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<v Speaker 1>On the internet is one place where people aren't afraid

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<v Speaker 1>to talk.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, that's that's very true, and they get into arguments

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<v Speaker 2>so fast, you know. I used to do a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of speaking and a lot of media on the abortion

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<v Speaker 2>issue as a pro life representative, and I never got

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<v Speaker 2>One time I was on CNN and it was a

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<v Speaker 2>half hour show that had commercial interruptions, and I was

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<v Speaker 2>in the studio and everybody else was in a studio

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00:24:11.559 --> 00:24:15.680
<v Speaker 2>somewhere remotely, and whenever there was a commercial, the producer

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00:24:15.720 --> 00:24:18.799
<v Speaker 2>would come in and say, doesn't that make you really angry?

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<v Speaker 2>Don't you want to just challenge her? Like, just come

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00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:25.279
<v Speaker 2>right back at her and challenge what she said. And

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't do that. You know, I was not going

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<v Speaker 2>to do that. I had the idea that the audience

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<v Speaker 2>was interested in hearing a conversation between two people who

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00:24:34.799 --> 00:24:39.200
<v Speaker 2>disagreed on an important concept, an important topic that they're

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00:24:39.200 --> 00:24:43.319
<v Speaker 2>both very well informed on. I had that illusion that

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<v Speaker 2>that's what it was all about. But no, she was right.

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<v Speaker 2>They wanted to your argument. If they're clicking through the

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<v Speaker 2>five hundred channels, what's exciting is seeing people who are angry.

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<v Speaker 2>I just was not cut out to that. So I

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<v Speaker 2>think that is the model people follow on the internet

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00:24:58.359 --> 00:25:02.359
<v Speaker 2>most of the time is get in there. And I'm

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<v Speaker 2>sure you've seen the little meme where the guy is

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<v Speaker 2>this computer and he calls to his wife says, I'll

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00:25:07.240 --> 00:25:10.160
<v Speaker 2>be there in a minute. Somebody is being wrong on

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<v Speaker 2>the internet.

420
00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:16.599
<v Speaker 1>I did want to talk to you about your history

421
00:25:16.599 --> 00:25:20.839
<v Speaker 1>with abortion, but not talk about abortion, but more so

422
00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:25.160
<v Speaker 1>how we can't talk about anything anymore without getting incensed.

423
00:25:25.759 --> 00:25:27.720
<v Speaker 1>I mean, a couple of weeks ago, my wife and

424
00:25:27.799 --> 00:25:30.079
<v Speaker 1>I were sitting and we were talking to somebody on speakerphone,

425
00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:33.000
<v Speaker 1>and she started to say something about abortion or her

426
00:25:33.119 --> 00:25:38.319
<v Speaker 1>view on some issue that's politically charged, and I remember

427
00:25:38.359 --> 00:25:44.640
<v Speaker 1>going and what what? I don't get, I don't care who,

428
00:25:44.680 --> 00:25:48.839
<v Speaker 1>I don't care, And I just I feel like we've

429
00:25:48.920 --> 00:25:53.400
<v Speaker 1>experienced that so much. Even you know, we lived in

430
00:25:52.279 --> 00:25:56.839
<v Speaker 1>a condo when we first got married that faced a courtyard,

431
00:25:56.880 --> 00:25:59.440
<v Speaker 1>and let's say we were exposed. Anything we said could

432
00:25:59.440 --> 00:26:03.559
<v Speaker 1>be heard by fifteen twenty different condos at the same time,

433
00:26:03.680 --> 00:26:07.599
<v Speaker 1>if they were listening well, and if we're talking about

434
00:26:07.680 --> 00:26:11.079
<v Speaker 1>you know, who won the game last week? Okay, full volume,

435
00:26:11.640 --> 00:26:15.440
<v Speaker 1>but then certain topics take the volume down a little

436
00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:19.480
<v Speaker 1>bit and look around, look over your shoulder. And I

437
00:26:19.519 --> 00:26:21.960
<v Speaker 1>don't know where we go as a society if we're

438
00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:25.960
<v Speaker 1>constantly thinking that way. How can we talk to each

439
00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:30.160
<v Speaker 1>other without dehumanizing one another. And the reason I wanted

440
00:26:30.160 --> 00:26:34.079
<v Speaker 1>to bring up the abortion topic with you is you

441
00:26:34.240 --> 00:26:38.839
<v Speaker 1>changed your mind? Yes, yes, How do we change our minds?

442
00:26:38.839 --> 00:26:40.960
<v Speaker 1>And why is it so hard to change our minds?

443
00:26:41.000 --> 00:26:47.119
<v Speaker 2>Gosh? I wonder if the attachment to being right and

444
00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:53.480
<v Speaker 2>believing you are right, because that imagine somebody opposing you

445
00:26:53.559 --> 00:26:57.200
<v Speaker 2>and hating you, trying to drag you away. That makes

446
00:26:57.279 --> 00:27:01.720
<v Speaker 2>us more polarized in our thinking. And then because you're

447
00:27:01.720 --> 00:27:05.279
<v Speaker 2>clinging to this rightness and there's only you know, one

448
00:27:05.440 --> 00:27:09.880
<v Speaker 2>or two, there's only black or white, there's only two possibilities,

449
00:27:10.160 --> 00:27:14.799
<v Speaker 2>no subtlety. If you step back from your intense position

450
00:27:14.920 --> 00:27:18.119
<v Speaker 2>on something, you're just in free fall and enemies are

451
00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:22.240
<v Speaker 2>attacking you. I think maybe there's more fear about being

452
00:27:22.319 --> 00:27:26.559
<v Speaker 2>open minded than there was then. And of course I've

453
00:27:26.599 --> 00:27:29.559
<v Speaker 2>noticed that you have too that it seems like people

454
00:27:29.559 --> 00:27:34.880
<v Speaker 2>who hold progressive or even woke opinions feel quite free

455
00:27:34.920 --> 00:27:39.279
<v Speaker 2>to express their opinions and those week conservatives, you know,

456
00:27:39.319 --> 00:27:41.599
<v Speaker 2>who have to hold back. I read a column in

457
00:27:41.799 --> 00:27:47.160
<v Speaker 2>the Washington Examiner by Rob Long, who was a TV producer.

458
00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:50.880
<v Speaker 2>He was the producer of Cheers way back when. Now

459
00:27:50.920 --> 00:27:53.960
<v Speaker 2>he is in seminary. He wants to be an Episcopal priest.

460
00:27:54.319 --> 00:27:56.160
<v Speaker 2>So in as Colin, he said, I was meeting with

461
00:27:56.200 --> 00:28:00.000
<v Speaker 2>an old friend and he has gotten into using psychedelic

462
00:28:00.920 --> 00:28:04.200
<v Speaker 2>for a trauma healing, emotional healing, and so we were

463
00:28:04.200 --> 00:28:07.559
<v Speaker 2>talking about this, and of course those drugs are illegal,

464
00:28:08.200 --> 00:28:11.119
<v Speaker 2>but we were talking it full volume. We weren't ashamed

465
00:28:11.200 --> 00:28:12.960
<v Speaker 2>of what we were saying. And then they asked me

466
00:28:13.000 --> 00:28:16.759
<v Speaker 2>about seminary. And as I started to talk about my faith,

467
00:28:16.960 --> 00:28:19.880
<v Speaker 2>I noticed that we both began talking much more quietly.

468
00:28:20.480 --> 00:28:25.079
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's illegal to use these drugs, but it's

469
00:28:25.319 --> 00:28:28.640
<v Speaker 2>perfectly legal to be a Christian. But we feel like

470
00:28:28.720 --> 00:28:31.559
<v Speaker 2>that's the thing that we're not allowed to talk about.

471
00:28:31.880 --> 00:28:35.759
<v Speaker 2>So that's that's another part of it. I think. In fact,

472
00:28:35.920 --> 00:28:38.480
<v Speaker 2>I was talking to two friends who are more progressive,

473
00:28:38.519 --> 00:28:41.359
<v Speaker 2>and I said, I read this really interesting thing in

474
00:28:41.440 --> 00:28:44.920
<v Speaker 2>the Washington Examiner, and both of them said, oh, that's

475
00:28:44.960 --> 00:28:49.559
<v Speaker 2>a conservative magazine. It was like, I was like, yeah,

476
00:28:49.599 --> 00:28:52.720
<v Speaker 2>but that doesn't matter as far as this is consumer's column.

477
00:28:53.200 --> 00:28:55.839
<v Speaker 2>But I felt like, you know, it's like cut them off,

478
00:28:56.079 --> 00:28:58.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, wipe them off the table. They have nothing

479
00:28:58.920 --> 00:29:02.079
<v Speaker 2>to say, they're probably lying. That's hard to feel like

480
00:29:02.440 --> 00:29:06.079
<v Speaker 2>you're being silenced for some of the opinions that you hold.

481
00:29:07.799 --> 00:29:10.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. No, And I think if I'm thinking back on

482
00:29:10.440 --> 00:29:13.160
<v Speaker 1>the context of the conversation that I'm referencing with Emily

483
00:29:13.279 --> 00:29:17.480
<v Speaker 1>my wife, I think it was after the Charlie Kirk

484
00:29:17.799 --> 00:29:22.200
<v Speaker 1>assassination that was kind of a breaking point for her

485
00:29:22.240 --> 00:29:25.400
<v Speaker 1>in terms of I'm not going to be quiet anymore.

486
00:29:27.559 --> 00:29:31.599
<v Speaker 1>My wife is very mild mannered. She the last thing

487
00:29:31.640 --> 00:29:33.960
<v Speaker 1>she would ever want to do is offend anybody. And

488
00:29:34.240 --> 00:29:37.559
<v Speaker 1>it's not as though she's not a handograph by birth,

489
00:29:38.480 --> 00:29:41.920
<v Speaker 1>so she doesn't need to get into the existential questions

490
00:29:41.960 --> 00:29:45.839
<v Speaker 1>all of the time. Something about that situation and watching

491
00:29:45.880 --> 00:29:49.039
<v Speaker 1>it play out for her kind of broke in a

492
00:29:49.079 --> 00:29:52.279
<v Speaker 1>good way, kind of like the scales fell from her

493
00:29:52.279 --> 00:29:55.359
<v Speaker 1>eyes and she realized that she was kind of being

494
00:29:55.440 --> 00:29:58.039
<v Speaker 1>silenced in a way. That wasn't equal in terms of

495
00:29:58.119 --> 00:30:01.200
<v Speaker 1>what she was able to share. You said, if you're

496
00:30:01.200 --> 00:30:04.799
<v Speaker 1>talking about something that's illegal or something that's socially acceptable,

497
00:30:04.880 --> 00:30:10.079
<v Speaker 1>let's say culturally acceptable in the broader sense, then yeah,

498
00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:12.279
<v Speaker 1>go right ahead. But once you start talking about your

499
00:30:12.279 --> 00:30:16.079
<v Speaker 1>faith or your views, whether let's say it's pro life

500
00:30:16.240 --> 00:30:21.200
<v Speaker 1>versus pro choice, okay, the dominant cultural narrative is that

501
00:30:21.279 --> 00:30:25.119
<v Speaker 1>pro choice is the socially acceptable, the cool thing. Yeah,

502
00:30:25.720 --> 00:30:27.640
<v Speaker 1>the cool thing, because I think a lot of it

503
00:30:27.680 --> 00:30:31.119
<v Speaker 1>comes down to influence. And I mean, like I said,

504
00:30:31.519 --> 00:30:34.559
<v Speaker 1>this isn't an opportunity to litigate different views on abortion,

505
00:30:34.759 --> 00:30:39.119
<v Speaker 1>but more so how we talk to each other. Even

506
00:30:39.119 --> 00:30:42.400
<v Speaker 1>the Charlie Kirk became a social signifier of where you stood,

507
00:30:42.440 --> 00:30:46.240
<v Speaker 1>whether you were conservative or progressive. But I did notice

508
00:30:46.240 --> 00:30:50.359
<v Speaker 1>that a lot of people who normally wouldn't speak out

509
00:30:50.960 --> 00:30:51.960
<v Speaker 1>started to speak out.

510
00:30:53.559 --> 00:30:56.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think that's I think that's the case. And

511
00:30:56.400 --> 00:30:58.680
<v Speaker 2>that was when I decided that I would wear this

512
00:30:58.799 --> 00:31:02.039
<v Speaker 2>cross every day. I always wore a little cross kind

513
00:31:02.079 --> 00:31:06.559
<v Speaker 2>of tucked inside, but I'm gonna wear my beautiful cross

514
00:31:06.599 --> 00:31:08.720
<v Speaker 2>just so anybody who looks at me they know I'm

515
00:31:08.759 --> 00:31:12.279
<v Speaker 2>a Christian. And something similar happened to me. I was saying,

516
00:31:12.359 --> 00:31:15.599
<v Speaker 2>that's what happened to me after the Charlie Kirk assassination.

517
00:31:16.079 --> 00:31:18.640
<v Speaker 2>And I wondered, you know, so many Christians all over

518
00:31:18.680 --> 00:31:21.359
<v Speaker 2>the country they had a similar kind of like after

519
00:31:21.480 --> 00:31:22.319
<v Speaker 2>Bellis struck.

520
00:31:22.359 --> 00:31:23.480
<v Speaker 1>It just keeps.

521
00:31:23.480 --> 00:31:27.400
<v Speaker 2>Vibrating and we kept feeling that resonance. But the same

522
00:31:27.440 --> 00:31:32.359
<v Speaker 2>thing happened after your dad's chrismation. Because the day he

523
00:31:32.480 --> 00:31:36.160
<v Speaker 2>was Chris maiden. Do you remember the sermon? What a sermon?

524
00:31:36.359 --> 00:31:39.200
<v Speaker 2>So late in the service, that was when he had

525
00:31:39.240 --> 00:31:42.559
<v Speaker 2>your parents come up to be Chris Maiden, and then

526
00:31:42.599 --> 00:31:46.720
<v Speaker 2>he preached this sermon. I never forgot, he said, early

527
00:31:46.880 --> 00:31:49.920
<v Speaker 2>early this morning. Most of you probably have not heard

528
00:31:49.920 --> 00:31:54.960
<v Speaker 2>about it. In Egypt, there was a bust of Christian

529
00:31:55.359 --> 00:31:59.160
<v Speaker 2>Orthodox Christians who were on their way on Palm Sunday

530
00:31:59.680 --> 00:32:03.319
<v Speaker 2>on the way to the monastery of Saint Anthony to

531
00:32:03.440 --> 00:32:05.000
<v Speaker 2>celebrate and to hear a service.

532
00:32:05.160 --> 00:32:06.039
<v Speaker 1>And when they.

533
00:32:05.920 --> 00:32:08.039
<v Speaker 2>Got there, the bus was attacked and most of them

534
00:32:08.079 --> 00:32:11.559
<v Speaker 2>were killed. And he said, that is the church the

535
00:32:11.599 --> 00:32:17.279
<v Speaker 2>Hanographs are joining. It's not about Greek cooking, it's not

536
00:32:17.480 --> 00:32:22.440
<v Speaker 2>Greek ethnic culture, it's not about Greek dancing. It is

537
00:32:22.519 --> 00:32:25.519
<v Speaker 2>about following the Lord Jesus Christ, wherever you lead you,

538
00:32:26.039 --> 00:32:29.880
<v Speaker 2>and it may be leading you into danger, and you

539
00:32:29.960 --> 00:32:32.559
<v Speaker 2>have to be willing to go there. It was off,

540
00:32:32.839 --> 00:32:36.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, fire breathing sermony my hairstand on end. So

541
00:32:36.759 --> 00:32:39.359
<v Speaker 2>as soon as I got home, I thought, I want

542
00:32:39.400 --> 00:32:44.720
<v Speaker 2>to get a tattoo on my wrists like Egyptian Christians do.

543
00:32:44.960 --> 00:32:51.079
<v Speaker 2>Coptic Christians have a tattoo made or inked hated on

544
00:32:51.599 --> 00:32:55.240
<v Speaker 2>their children's right hand anywhere from your wrist all the

545
00:32:55.240 --> 00:32:58.200
<v Speaker 2>way up your arm or your hand, and it is

546
00:32:58.240 --> 00:33:01.440
<v Speaker 2>to identify them as a Christian. This is an ancient

547
00:33:01.559 --> 00:33:05.960
<v Speaker 2>habit because it used to be that Muslims would abduct

548
00:33:06.640 --> 00:33:10.319
<v Speaker 2>Christian boys and carry them away and girls too to

549
00:33:10.440 --> 00:33:13.839
<v Speaker 2>be slaves, to be sex slaves. Who knew what terrible

550
00:33:13.839 --> 00:33:16.559
<v Speaker 2>thing they would go through, but they would always have

551
00:33:16.640 --> 00:33:19.799
<v Speaker 2>that cross, and they would always know they were baptized

552
00:33:20.279 --> 00:33:23.480
<v Speaker 2>and that they were Christians, no matter what else happened

553
00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:26.559
<v Speaker 2>in their life. So I really wanted They still do this.

554
00:33:26.720 --> 00:33:31.279
<v Speaker 2>All Coptic Christians have a cross tattoo, and so I

555
00:33:31.319 --> 00:33:34.119
<v Speaker 2>got mine because I wanted to, you know, stand in

556
00:33:34.200 --> 00:33:38.039
<v Speaker 2>solidarity with them. I didn't want to ask my husband

557
00:33:38.160 --> 00:33:40.640
<v Speaker 2>if I could do this. I didn't want to tell

558
00:33:40.680 --> 00:33:43.680
<v Speaker 2>him I had a time because I knew he would say, no,

559
00:33:44.079 --> 00:33:47.079
<v Speaker 2>you know, he's just more like that than I am.

560
00:33:47.640 --> 00:33:49.480
<v Speaker 2>So I waited till he was out of the country,

561
00:33:50.240 --> 00:33:53.880
<v Speaker 2>and I had it done while he was in Italy,

562
00:33:54.079 --> 00:33:56.319
<v Speaker 2>and then I put it on Facebook, and then I

563
00:33:56.400 --> 00:33:59.759
<v Speaker 2>told him in an email and he was like, oh, wow,

564
00:34:00.160 --> 00:34:04.720
<v Speaker 2>look at that photo. It looks beautiful. So that was

565
00:34:04.759 --> 00:34:07.279
<v Speaker 2>how I got away with it. Every once in a while,

566
00:34:07.279 --> 00:34:09.199
<v Speaker 2>I think I want to do something else of this,

567
00:34:09.320 --> 00:34:12.280
<v Speaker 2>put something inside it. He says, no, no, you don't

568
00:34:12.320 --> 00:34:15.719
<v Speaker 2>need to do anything else. But I did that because

569
00:34:15.840 --> 00:34:19.360
<v Speaker 2>of the day that you're dead. Was Chris mate it.

570
00:34:19.360 --> 00:34:22.480
<v Speaker 2>It had just as much impact on me as the

571
00:34:22.599 --> 00:34:26.440
<v Speaker 2>Charlie Kurr murder. And it seems that we're seeing so

572
00:34:26.559 --> 00:34:30.840
<v Speaker 2>many murders of Christians. It really seems like the rhetoric

573
00:34:31.039 --> 00:34:34.559
<v Speaker 2>about violence is going up that one more step. We

574
00:34:34.760 --> 00:34:37.880
<v Speaker 2>just what can we do except to march into the

575
00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:40.159
<v Speaker 2>future as courageously as we can.

576
00:34:41.239 --> 00:34:43.519
<v Speaker 1>Well, And it's a wake up call that and here

577
00:34:43.519 --> 00:34:46.639
<v Speaker 1>we've been afraid of a little side eye when we

578
00:34:47.199 --> 00:34:49.280
<v Speaker 1>share our faith a little too loudly at a restaurant

579
00:34:49.360 --> 00:34:51.079
<v Speaker 1>or of our you know, and so it is a

580
00:34:51.079 --> 00:34:53.880
<v Speaker 1>wake up call to be proud of your faith, to

581
00:34:53.920 --> 00:34:56.519
<v Speaker 1>be proud of what you believe in, and to really

582
00:34:58.119 --> 00:35:01.559
<v Speaker 1>to actually believe that you can come they why you believe.

583
00:35:01.719 --> 00:35:05.280
<v Speaker 1>Like I grew up surrounded by apologetics, you know, the

584
00:35:05.320 --> 00:35:09.239
<v Speaker 1>defense of the faith, and I for the longest time

585
00:35:09.320 --> 00:35:13.159
<v Speaker 1>I loathe it and I still hold it at arm's

586
00:35:13.239 --> 00:35:17.079
<v Speaker 1>length because sometimes it can be weaponized. And that's what

587
00:35:17.159 --> 00:35:21.320
<v Speaker 1>I experienced so often growing up. Is and you see

588
00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:25.239
<v Speaker 1>these people and this is something that you told me,

589
00:35:26.280 --> 00:35:30.960
<v Speaker 1>you said, theologian it means two different things. Often in

590
00:35:31.000 --> 00:35:33.599
<v Speaker 1>the West and in the East. Yes, and the West

591
00:35:33.840 --> 00:35:38.320
<v Speaker 1>a theologian is somebody who knows about God. And the

592
00:35:38.360 --> 00:35:42.440
<v Speaker 1>East a theologian is somebody who knows God. Yes, and

593
00:35:42.519 --> 00:35:46.280
<v Speaker 1>you quite often you experience that without them even saying

594
00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:49.360
<v Speaker 1>anything about God. It's like the definition of pornography. You

595
00:35:49.400 --> 00:35:53.559
<v Speaker 1>know it when you see it, Yes, And you know,

596
00:35:53.599 --> 00:35:57.239
<v Speaker 1>I often use that, you know, whether it's crass or

597
00:35:57.239 --> 00:36:01.079
<v Speaker 1>not to define whenever I've met let's say it's a

598
00:36:01.079 --> 00:36:04.800
<v Speaker 1>monk or a holy man, or even a lay person

599
00:36:04.800 --> 00:36:07.920
<v Speaker 1>who just you can tell that they know God. They

600
00:36:08.039 --> 00:36:12.320
<v Speaker 1>might not be able to give you a systematic theology.

601
00:36:13.039 --> 00:36:15.199
<v Speaker 1>But you meet them and you say, I know that

602
00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:18.239
<v Speaker 1>they've been praying. I know. I just know that they

603
00:36:18.360 --> 00:36:21.719
<v Speaker 1>know God, whether they know about Him in a way

604
00:36:21.760 --> 00:36:26.400
<v Speaker 1>that's acceptable to theologians or apologists. Yes, and that's why

605
00:36:26.599 --> 00:36:30.239
<v Speaker 1>I held it at arm's length for so long. But

606
00:36:31.559 --> 00:36:34.039
<v Speaker 1>you talk about a commitment to reality. That is where

607
00:36:34.079 --> 00:36:38.800
<v Speaker 1>apologetics and understanding your faith is not. It's not blind, right,

608
00:36:39.679 --> 00:36:43.119
<v Speaker 1>we do have a reason to believe, and as I've

609
00:36:43.119 --> 00:36:47.519
<v Speaker 1>gotten older, I've started to understand that and accept that

610
00:36:47.599 --> 00:36:51.679
<v Speaker 1>and kind of wear it outside of my shirt.

611
00:36:51.880 --> 00:36:57.320
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think about that sometimes

612
00:36:57.400 --> 00:37:01.880
<v Speaker 2>that I tried from many years to figure out what

613
00:37:02.039 --> 00:37:10.559
<v Speaker 2>is the difference that I since between Orthodoxy and Catholic, Protestant, Evangelical,

614
00:37:10.639 --> 00:37:13.920
<v Speaker 2>non denomination, the whole thing. I mean, there's a way

615
00:37:13.960 --> 00:37:19.000
<v Speaker 2>in which all of Western Christianity is alike, and it's

616
00:37:19.039 --> 00:37:24.920
<v Speaker 2>something that Eastern Christianity doesn't have, you know, It's like, gosh,

617
00:37:25.000 --> 00:37:30.480
<v Speaker 2>we've been separated Eastern Orthodox from Oriental Orthodox like cops

618
00:37:30.639 --> 00:37:37.079
<v Speaker 2>Coptic three times longer than Catholic and Protestant have been separated,

619
00:37:37.400 --> 00:37:40.519
<v Speaker 2>and yet we are so much one with them. And

620
00:37:40.559 --> 00:37:44.440
<v Speaker 2>when I need other Oriental Orthodox. I know it's the

621
00:37:44.480 --> 00:37:48.280
<v Speaker 2>same God. I can just feel it. In America, there's

622
00:37:48.360 --> 00:37:52.800
<v Speaker 2>just such a wide variety of theology and styles of

623
00:37:52.800 --> 00:37:55.960
<v Speaker 2>worship and all that, and yet there is something that

624
00:37:56.000 --> 00:37:58.519
<v Speaker 2>they all have in common. I tried so long to

625
00:37:58.519 --> 00:38:01.800
<v Speaker 2>figure out what it went, What is it that I'm sensing?

626
00:38:02.440 --> 00:38:06.559
<v Speaker 2>And I finally decided it's that in the West they

627
00:38:06.679 --> 00:38:12.239
<v Speaker 2>separated thinking from holiness. And it's just what you said,

628
00:38:12.400 --> 00:38:15.760
<v Speaker 2>a theologian to somebody who knows a whole bunch about God,

629
00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:19.920
<v Speaker 2>and they can talk about God, but they don't necessarily

630
00:38:19.960 --> 00:38:22.480
<v Speaker 2>have to be a holy person. They don't have to

631
00:38:22.519 --> 00:38:25.880
<v Speaker 2>be prayer. Thank God. In the East, we had all

632
00:38:25.920 --> 00:38:29.880
<v Speaker 2>these ways of fencing in the faith so that it

633
00:38:29.920 --> 00:38:34.039
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't change that we never got to that point. In

634
00:38:34.079 --> 00:38:37.800
<v Speaker 2>the West, there was the Reformation, and it became all

635
00:38:37.840 --> 00:38:42.519
<v Speaker 2>about talking about God and arguing about God and use it,

636
00:38:42.559 --> 00:38:48.119
<v Speaker 2>weaponizing apologetics and proving that you're right. It became so thinking.

637
00:38:49.079 --> 00:38:53.199
<v Speaker 2>Even before the Reformation, going back to the time of Aquinas,

638
00:38:53.440 --> 00:38:56.440
<v Speaker 2>you probably know the story that Aquinas had been writing

639
00:38:57.280 --> 00:39:02.280
<v Speaker 2>so much. Theology just very heady, very complex. It is

640
00:39:02.320 --> 00:39:05.880
<v Speaker 2>still the official theology of the Catholic Church. Is what

641
00:39:05.920 --> 00:39:10.239
<v Speaker 2>Aquinas worked out. And yet in the last month of

642
00:39:10.280 --> 00:39:15.239
<v Speaker 2>his life, on Saint Nicholas Day, December sixth, he was

643
00:39:15.400 --> 00:39:19.360
<v Speaker 2>at the mass, the liturgy, and something happened to him.

644
00:39:19.960 --> 00:39:23.599
<v Speaker 2>He had some kind of revelation, and after that he

645
00:39:23.679 --> 00:39:26.599
<v Speaker 2>refused to do any more writing. He never wrote another

646
00:39:26.599 --> 00:39:30.000
<v Speaker 2>word in his life. And his assistant kept telling him,

647
00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:33.800
<v Speaker 2>you need to finish, you know, the works you're writing on.

648
00:39:33.880 --> 00:39:36.719
<v Speaker 2>You need to get this done and complete it. And

649
00:39:36.760 --> 00:39:40.400
<v Speaker 2>he said, I can't. Everything I've ever written now seems

650
00:39:40.440 --> 00:39:45.840
<v Speaker 2>to me like straw. And that's it, really, you know,

651
00:39:45.920 --> 00:39:49.119
<v Speaker 2>he came to understand. And I think in the West

652
00:39:49.199 --> 00:39:52.159
<v Speaker 2>it's like and what a brilliant guy was, and he

653
00:39:52.280 --> 00:39:56.159
<v Speaker 2>was so humble. So now let's read more of the

654
00:39:56.199 --> 00:39:59.639
<v Speaker 2>things he wrote. In Eastern Christianity, we look at that

655
00:39:59.679 --> 00:40:02.599
<v Speaker 2>and say, thank God, thank God, he saw the beauty

656
00:40:02.639 --> 00:40:07.239
<v Speaker 2>of the Lord. You know, he went to heaven embraced

657
00:40:07.320 --> 00:40:13.679
<v Speaker 2>by the Lord and experiencing that wholeness. So it's, yeah,

658
00:40:13.760 --> 00:40:19.639
<v Speaker 2>that difference between apologetics and rational thinking about theology versus

659
00:40:20.679 --> 00:40:24.360
<v Speaker 2>trying to be a holy person. We in the West

660
00:40:24.440 --> 00:40:27.119
<v Speaker 2>we tend to say it's it's head, it's intellect versus

661
00:40:27.320 --> 00:40:31.719
<v Speaker 2>part which is emotion, and that's entirely wrong. That's not

662
00:40:31.760 --> 00:40:36.079
<v Speaker 2>how humans are put together. But we despise emotion as

663
00:40:36.199 --> 00:40:40.039
<v Speaker 2>it's not rational, you know, it's like sub push it down.

664
00:40:40.519 --> 00:40:44.000
<v Speaker 2>It's not authoritative, it's not important. You know, the thinking

665
00:40:44.079 --> 00:40:50.320
<v Speaker 2>is the important part. And it's so so crushingly wrong

666
00:40:51.119 --> 00:40:53.039
<v Speaker 2>that that division occurred.

667
00:40:53.800 --> 00:40:57.559
<v Speaker 1>Mm hmm when it's holistic. I mean, you talk about

668
00:40:57.679 --> 00:41:01.800
<v Speaker 1>my dad's conversion and the story that kind of details

669
00:41:01.840 --> 00:41:04.679
<v Speaker 1>that conversion is his book Truth matters, Life matters more.

670
00:41:05.440 --> 00:41:07.239
<v Speaker 1>And I guess if you were to break it down,

671
00:41:08.800 --> 00:41:13.480
<v Speaker 1>life essentially is that the feeling, the experience of God.

672
00:41:14.519 --> 00:41:17.960
<v Speaker 1>That's not saying that truth does not matter, right, And

673
00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:20.360
<v Speaker 1>I often I think about that a lot in terms

674
00:41:20.400 --> 00:41:22.440
<v Speaker 1>of what a couin has said. Everything I've written is

675
00:41:22.480 --> 00:41:27.400
<v Speaker 1>but straw, does that mean he wishes he never wrote it?

676
00:41:27.480 --> 00:41:30.679
<v Speaker 1>I mean? And how do we handle that because it's

677
00:41:31.360 --> 00:41:35.159
<v Speaker 1>it's like our past. Well, sometimes you don't want to

678
00:41:35.199 --> 00:41:37.840
<v Speaker 1>wish that something didn't happen, but that's what got you

679
00:41:37.880 --> 00:41:40.079
<v Speaker 1>to where you are, and that's what makes you, makes

680
00:41:40.079 --> 00:41:43.239
<v Speaker 1>you who you are, and your experience and yeah, so

681
00:41:43.360 --> 00:41:45.360
<v Speaker 1>it's it's complicated, but you.

682
00:41:45.239 --> 00:41:51.840
<v Speaker 2>Know how interjected the whole thing about your your thinking,

683
00:41:51.960 --> 00:41:54.239
<v Speaker 2>and then you're feeling. You know, what do you feel?

684
00:41:55.239 --> 00:41:59.639
<v Speaker 2>And the tragedy that feeling got identified with emotions. I

685
00:41:59.679 --> 00:42:02.400
<v Speaker 2>wont to point out that they're two different ways we

686
00:42:02.519 --> 00:42:06.559
<v Speaker 2>use the word feel. We could say I feel happy,

687
00:42:06.679 --> 00:42:10.559
<v Speaker 2>I feel dejected, I feel whatever. Talking about emotions, we

688
00:42:10.599 --> 00:42:14.719
<v Speaker 2>could also say I feel this cup. This cup feels

689
00:42:14.760 --> 00:42:20.559
<v Speaker 2>hard to me. I am experiencing the presence of this

690
00:42:21.360 --> 00:42:25.599
<v Speaker 2>little cup here. And I asked somebody who read Japanese,

691
00:42:25.679 --> 00:42:27.880
<v Speaker 2>what does this say? It was given to me by friend.

692
00:42:28.480 --> 00:42:33.159
<v Speaker 2>It's all advertisements and even there's a phone number for

693
00:42:33.239 --> 00:42:39.320
<v Speaker 2>a sushi restaurant in Tokyo. I thought it would be love, joy,

694
00:42:39.360 --> 00:42:43.440
<v Speaker 2>all kinds of things like that, but that's all it is. Anyway,

695
00:42:43.559 --> 00:42:46.880
<v Speaker 2>when we talk about feeling the presence of God, we're

696
00:42:46.960 --> 00:42:50.000
<v Speaker 2>using it in the latter sense. We don't mean we're

697
00:42:50.039 --> 00:42:53.360
<v Speaker 2>having emotions about God. I'm thinking about God and I

698
00:42:53.400 --> 00:42:58.039
<v Speaker 2>get emotional. We mean, wow, that presence was there and

699
00:42:58.079 --> 00:43:00.880
<v Speaker 2>I felt it, in the same sense that I can

700
00:43:00.920 --> 00:43:05.599
<v Speaker 2>feel this cup. Yeah. And so that's a big problem

701
00:43:05.639 --> 00:43:08.199
<v Speaker 2>I think is that we use the word feeling in

702
00:43:08.199 --> 00:43:11.159
<v Speaker 2>two different ways. And one of the ways that people

703
00:43:11.239 --> 00:43:14.960
<v Speaker 2>assume we mean. It is one that utterly discounts the

704
00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:18.199
<v Speaker 2>feeling that we're talking about. So I try to use sense.

705
00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:22.400
<v Speaker 2>I sense the presence of God. I perceive it, I

706
00:43:22.440 --> 00:43:27.000
<v Speaker 2>am receiving something. I try to stress the reality of

707
00:43:27.079 --> 00:43:29.320
<v Speaker 2>it and stay away from that word feeling because it

708
00:43:29.400 --> 00:43:32.719
<v Speaker 2>just confuses things. I think I interrupted you. I'm sorry

709
00:43:32.760 --> 00:43:33.159
<v Speaker 2>about that.

710
00:43:33.920 --> 00:43:36.280
<v Speaker 1>I'm so glad you did all right.

711
00:43:37.280 --> 00:43:37.400
<v Speaker 2>That.

712
00:43:37.719 --> 00:43:39.440
<v Speaker 1>If there's something that I'm going to take away from

713
00:43:39.480 --> 00:43:43.000
<v Speaker 1>our conversation, that's it's a huge thing. The devil's in

714
00:43:43.039 --> 00:43:47.639
<v Speaker 1>the details. And that's such an important distinction, right, because

715
00:43:48.920 --> 00:43:52.920
<v Speaker 1>emotions are unreliable. They don't always tell the.

716
00:43:52.880 --> 00:43:54.880
<v Speaker 2>Full story so true, and they change.

717
00:43:57.400 --> 00:43:59.239
<v Speaker 1>That's why the famous speech that I always give it

718
00:43:59.239 --> 00:44:01.679
<v Speaker 1>at weddings is that love is a commitment. It's not

719
00:44:01.719 --> 00:44:04.840
<v Speaker 1>a feeling, and it doesn't always give people the warm

720
00:44:04.920 --> 00:44:08.360
<v Speaker 1>fuzzies initially. But I say, look, the way you feel

721
00:44:08.400 --> 00:44:12.119
<v Speaker 1>is going to change, but your commitment to loving that's

722
00:44:12.119 --> 00:44:14.039
<v Speaker 1>what you have to be dedicated to, which you have

723
00:44:14.079 --> 00:44:17.400
<v Speaker 1>to say you make those decisions to love the person

724
00:44:18.079 --> 00:44:21.119
<v Speaker 1>even when you don't feel that way. Let's say you're

725
00:44:21.199 --> 00:44:24.320
<v Speaker 1>upset with them, No, I committed to love them and

726
00:44:24.760 --> 00:44:27.760
<v Speaker 1>so it's a it's an important distinction.

727
00:44:28.400 --> 00:44:31.360
<v Speaker 2>Yes, it really is. And it's that word commitment again,

728
00:44:31.400 --> 00:44:33.800
<v Speaker 2>which means a lot to you, doesn't it. It's that

729
00:44:34.119 --> 00:44:40.079
<v Speaker 2>solidity and knowing there's the one thing that guarantees that

730
00:44:40.280 --> 00:44:45.880
<v Speaker 2>stability is that the person be stalwart and committed to

731
00:44:45.960 --> 00:44:48.800
<v Speaker 2>what they believe, and that they will stick by it

732
00:44:48.840 --> 00:44:51.119
<v Speaker 2>through thick and thin. This is reminding me of a

733
00:44:51.280 --> 00:44:55.599
<v Speaker 2>very ancient prayer to the Virgin Mary that begins under

734
00:44:55.639 --> 00:45:00.119
<v Speaker 2>your compassion, we take refuge theo Tokos. This is the

735
00:45:00.199 --> 00:45:03.840
<v Speaker 2>earliest prayer addressing her. It was found on a little

736
00:45:04.360 --> 00:45:09.119
<v Speaker 2>three by five papyrus in Egypt, and the papyrus states

737
00:45:09.119 --> 00:45:13.039
<v Speaker 2>to two hundred and fifty, and so the prayer existed

738
00:45:13.119 --> 00:45:16.559
<v Speaker 2>before the papyrus did. We don't know how early, and

739
00:45:16.599 --> 00:45:18.599
<v Speaker 2>we still use it. The point I was going to

740
00:45:18.639 --> 00:45:21.320
<v Speaker 2>make was what are we calling on when we call

741
00:45:21.360 --> 00:45:25.960
<v Speaker 2>on her under your shelter, under your protection, under your power,

742
00:45:26.639 --> 00:45:31.480
<v Speaker 2>under your tremendous ability as an intercessor. Now we say

743
00:45:31.599 --> 00:45:35.679
<v Speaker 2>under your compassion, because that's where the commitment is. It

744
00:45:35.760 --> 00:45:40.719
<v Speaker 2>is in her heart. She is dedicated to praying for

745
00:45:40.840 --> 00:45:45.920
<v Speaker 2>us and to loving us. And we can confidently say

746
00:45:46.519 --> 00:45:50.079
<v Speaker 2>by the fact that you are compassionate, that you have

747
00:45:50.159 --> 00:45:54.039
<v Speaker 2>compassion for us. On the basis of that, we ask

748
00:45:54.119 --> 00:45:56.840
<v Speaker 2>you to pray for us. We ask you to take

749
00:45:56.880 --> 00:46:00.320
<v Speaker 2>care of us and to solicit the healing that we

750
00:46:00.400 --> 00:46:04.760
<v Speaker 2>need or the protection that we need. That's the commitment thing.

751
00:46:05.519 --> 00:46:09.840
<v Speaker 2>When people at the wedding reception, when you offer a toast,

752
00:46:10.280 --> 00:46:15.880
<v Speaker 2>you're saying, it's the commitment that matters. There's emotion in that,

753
00:46:16.840 --> 00:46:19.239
<v Speaker 2>but a married couple of their emotions are going to

754
00:46:19.280 --> 00:46:22.920
<v Speaker 2>come and go over the decades. I've been married almost

755
00:46:22.960 --> 00:46:27.320
<v Speaker 2>fifty two years now, and certainly I talk sometimes about

756
00:46:27.360 --> 00:46:29.840
<v Speaker 2>the day that I was out of town for the

757
00:46:29.840 --> 00:46:33.440
<v Speaker 2>weekend and my youngest son went off to college and

758
00:46:33.480 --> 00:46:36.360
<v Speaker 2>I came home to an empty house except my husband,

759
00:46:37.119 --> 00:46:40.039
<v Speaker 2>and that was one of those moments I thought, he

760
00:46:40.199 --> 00:46:47.440
<v Speaker 2>is so boring. Is this going to be it? I mean,

761
00:46:47.519 --> 00:46:51.880
<v Speaker 2>the kids, the teenagers, they were so interesting and so lively,

762
00:46:51.960 --> 00:46:55.079
<v Speaker 2>and they brought so much new stuff into the house

763
00:46:55.199 --> 00:46:58.880
<v Speaker 2>and new ideas, new music, and now it's just him

764
00:46:58.960 --> 00:46:59.199
<v Speaker 2>and me.

765
00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:00.400
<v Speaker 1>Oh no.

766
00:47:01.039 --> 00:47:03.920
<v Speaker 2>Not long after after that, I ran into a guy

767
00:47:03.960 --> 00:47:07.920
<v Speaker 2>who'd been married like sixty or seventy years, and he said,

768
00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:10.719
<v Speaker 2>this is the best part of our marriage. We are

769
00:47:10.760 --> 00:47:14.280
<v Speaker 2>more in love than ever and I am enjoying her

770
00:47:14.800 --> 00:47:18.519
<v Speaker 2>more than I ever did. And this truly is the

771
00:47:18.559 --> 00:47:23.400
<v Speaker 2>golden years of our married history. So that gave me

772
00:47:23.440 --> 00:47:26.199
<v Speaker 2>something to think about, and in time it became true

773
00:47:26.280 --> 00:47:29.400
<v Speaker 2>for me and for my husband as well. These are

774
00:47:29.440 --> 00:47:32.119
<v Speaker 2>the best years of our marriage. But there sure was

775
00:47:32.159 --> 00:47:34.719
<v Speaker 2>a time there where I doubted that. It just goes

776
00:47:34.760 --> 00:47:38.159
<v Speaker 2>to show what you say about commitment, that no matter

777
00:47:38.239 --> 00:47:41.079
<v Speaker 2>how I was feeling, no matter how my emotions changed,

778
00:47:41.360 --> 00:47:43.719
<v Speaker 2>I had already made a decision. I wants her to

779
00:47:44.039 --> 00:47:47.559
<v Speaker 2>Priest talk about. He was middle aged and he was

780
00:47:48.280 --> 00:47:51.320
<v Speaker 2>getting off an airplane and got into a conversation with

781
00:47:51.320 --> 00:47:54.199
<v Speaker 2>the stewardess and she invited him to come back to

782
00:47:54.280 --> 00:47:57.960
<v Speaker 2>her hotel room. And he said when I told her, no,

783
00:47:59.360 --> 00:48:02.360
<v Speaker 2>I didn't have to make that decision. I had already

784
00:48:02.400 --> 00:48:06.519
<v Speaker 2>made that decision on my wedding day. It was already

785
00:48:06.639 --> 00:48:11.000
<v Speaker 2>a done deal. And that's that stuck with me. You

786
00:48:11.079 --> 00:48:14.679
<v Speaker 2>make that decision on your wedding day, and then the

787
00:48:14.760 --> 00:48:17.559
<v Speaker 2>answer is always easy. You always know what it's going

788
00:48:17.639 --> 00:48:17.840
<v Speaker 2>to be.

789
00:48:20.559 --> 00:48:24.199
<v Speaker 1>Well, going back to the Aquinas conversation, real quick, I

790
00:48:24.239 --> 00:48:27.400
<v Speaker 1>was just wondering how has your relationship to truth evolved

791
00:48:27.440 --> 00:48:30.800
<v Speaker 1>over your life? And the bigger question is how important

792
00:48:30.880 --> 00:48:32.360
<v Speaker 1>is getting it right.

793
00:48:36.159 --> 00:48:38.639
<v Speaker 2>I'm bouncing off the end of that because of the

794
00:48:38.679 --> 00:48:42.360
<v Speaker 2>getting it right, I've got it rollam many times in

795
00:48:42.440 --> 00:48:46.199
<v Speaker 2>my writing and then my speaking and then my being

796
00:48:46.239 --> 00:48:49.239
<v Speaker 2>interviewed and things like that. I've had to rethink things

797
00:48:49.400 --> 00:48:52.800
<v Speaker 2>and I've learned work just like you with blund Back,

798
00:48:52.920 --> 00:48:56.480
<v Speaker 2>discovering well, there's a whole human being there and I

799
00:48:56.599 --> 00:49:00.000
<v Speaker 2>was giving him short shrist. I haven't always got it right,

800
00:49:00.199 --> 00:49:02.960
<v Speaker 2>and so I can't blame that. That kind of getting

801
00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:05.360
<v Speaker 2>right is at the top of my priority. I'm more

802
00:49:05.480 --> 00:49:07.320
<v Speaker 2>wont to be in tune with the presence of the

803
00:49:07.360 --> 00:49:09.840
<v Speaker 2>Lord and doing what he's calling me to do at

804
00:49:09.840 --> 00:49:13.639
<v Speaker 2>that moment. And I'm also this might sound weird, but

805
00:49:13.719 --> 00:49:18.840
<v Speaker 2>I'm also I'm open to being wrong. Like what the

806
00:49:18.880 --> 00:49:23.480
<v Speaker 2>Lord is doing, it's huge, it's a symphonic it's involving

807
00:49:23.719 --> 00:49:26.320
<v Speaker 2>so many people all over the world at the same time,

808
00:49:26.880 --> 00:49:29.320
<v Speaker 2>and it might be my job to say the thing

809
00:49:29.400 --> 00:49:34.800
<v Speaker 2>that's wrong that will crystallize for others. Wait a minute, well,

810
00:49:34.800 --> 00:49:38.159
<v Speaker 2>now that doesn't sound right, and they bounce off of

811
00:49:38.199 --> 00:49:41.360
<v Speaker 2>that and then they find the truth. I'm willing to

812
00:49:41.400 --> 00:49:44.559
<v Speaker 2>be the person that gets proved wrong. You know, I'm

813
00:49:44.599 --> 00:49:47.000
<v Speaker 2>willing to be the person that says the stupid thing

814
00:49:48.800 --> 00:49:51.719
<v Speaker 2>because that, you know, the whole symphony. That might be

815
00:49:51.840 --> 00:49:54.400
<v Speaker 2>my role at the moment, and that might be how

816
00:49:54.440 --> 00:49:55.480
<v Speaker 2>God wants to use me.

817
00:49:56.199 --> 00:50:00.400
<v Speaker 1>That's more comforting than you realize. Good because that's well,

818
00:50:00.400 --> 00:50:05.000
<v Speaker 1>that's been a huge impediment to my moving forward with

819
00:50:05.079 --> 00:50:08.559
<v Speaker 1>doing anything front facing. Is you know, I really take

820
00:50:08.639 --> 00:50:12.880
<v Speaker 1>the weight of responsibility for putting anything out there is Yeah,

821
00:50:13.280 --> 00:50:16.199
<v Speaker 1>it's and it doesn't come from a place of pride

822
00:50:16.239 --> 00:50:19.800
<v Speaker 1>per se. It's just I don't want to say something

823
00:50:19.840 --> 00:50:22.440
<v Speaker 1>that's wrong. Well, and I have such a fear of

824
00:50:22.719 --> 00:50:26.239
<v Speaker 1>saying something that's wrong. And and what you just said

825
00:50:26.280 --> 00:50:30.159
<v Speaker 1>is really enlightening in terms of, hey, maybe you'll be

826
00:50:30.400 --> 00:50:34.920
<v Speaker 1>the crooked stick that guides somebody to the truth, you know,

827
00:50:35.079 --> 00:50:36.960
<v Speaker 1>through something that you said that's incorrect, as long as

828
00:50:37.000 --> 00:50:38.199
<v Speaker 1>you approach it with humility.

829
00:50:39.320 --> 00:50:42.039
<v Speaker 2>As you were speaking, I was thinking about, you know,

830
00:50:42.079 --> 00:50:47.000
<v Speaker 2>growing up with your dad, that idea of the inviolability

831
00:50:47.039 --> 00:50:52.039
<v Speaker 2>of truth and that truth is is just so beautiful

832
00:50:52.079 --> 00:50:55.880
<v Speaker 2>and it is on a pedestal. And we may be

833
00:50:56.079 --> 00:50:59.199
<v Speaker 2>wrong right now, but we're getting closer to and we're

834
00:50:59.280 --> 00:51:02.400
<v Speaker 2>discarded things that we thought that were wrong, and we're

835
00:51:02.760 --> 00:51:05.639
<v Speaker 2>moving ahead. And your dad had to do that with

836
00:51:05.719 --> 00:51:09.760
<v Speaker 2>some Chinese Christians, I know, you know, he apologized to

837
00:51:09.800 --> 00:51:12.119
<v Speaker 2>them and he admitted that he had been wrong, and

838
00:51:12.159 --> 00:51:15.519
<v Speaker 2>that almost reinforces the sense that it is important to

839
00:51:15.519 --> 00:51:20.800
<v Speaker 2>get it right because the beauty of truth. And I

840
00:51:20.920 --> 00:51:24.559
<v Speaker 2>think where my mind has evolved as an Orthodox Christian

841
00:51:25.159 --> 00:51:28.480
<v Speaker 2>is that I see truth as something that is more

842
00:51:30.519 --> 00:51:35.599
<v Speaker 2>collaborative and something that exists in the mind of God,

843
00:51:36.400 --> 00:51:39.000
<v Speaker 2>and that he has all these Christians all over the

844
00:51:39.039 --> 00:51:42.440
<v Speaker 2>world like a symphony, as I was saying, and we

845
00:51:42.679 --> 00:51:46.400
<v Speaker 2>come together. We need each other, we need each other's feedback.

846
00:51:46.760 --> 00:51:51.480
<v Speaker 2>Truth is not static, you know. I think in Western thought,

847
00:51:51.760 --> 00:51:55.880
<v Speaker 2>truth is almost like a beautiful marble statue and it

848
00:51:55.920 --> 00:51:59.440
<v Speaker 2>doesn't move, and it's cold, and it is the same

849
00:51:59.480 --> 00:52:03.239
<v Speaker 2>through turn that it never changes. I don't I don't

850
00:52:03.239 --> 00:52:06.280
<v Speaker 2>want to sound like I'm saying truth changes, but I

851
00:52:06.320 --> 00:52:10.199
<v Speaker 2>want to say that it's alive and it changes like

852
00:52:10.239 --> 00:52:15.199
<v Speaker 2>a forest, but the forest remains a forest. But because

853
00:52:15.239 --> 00:52:20.639
<v Speaker 2>it's alive, you know, it's it's continually growing and shedding

854
00:52:20.800 --> 00:52:24.000
<v Speaker 2>and then growing some more. It's beautiful, like the ocean,

855
00:52:24.199 --> 00:52:31.360
<v Speaker 2>which is immense and full of life and also changing

856
00:52:32.320 --> 00:52:35.280
<v Speaker 2>somehow that's part of its a liveness, and yet it

857
00:52:35.320 --> 00:52:41.079
<v Speaker 2>stays the same. I am definitely not arguing, for you know,

858
00:52:41.119 --> 00:52:45.920
<v Speaker 2>everybody has their own truth, or you know, truth is

859
00:52:45.960 --> 00:52:48.639
<v Speaker 2>going to evolve and will understand it better. I mean

860
00:52:49.000 --> 00:52:52.199
<v Speaker 2>I hate that. I hate that idea of truth evolves

861
00:52:52.239 --> 00:52:56.000
<v Speaker 2>and we're smarter than people before, and the idea that

862
00:52:56.000 --> 00:52:59.800
<v Speaker 2>we're standing on the shoulders of giants and so we see.

863
00:53:00.239 --> 00:53:05.800
<v Speaker 2>I just think that's so egotistic and so narcissistic because

864
00:53:05.800 --> 00:53:08.960
<v Speaker 2>we're saying, of course we see more than the giants

865
00:53:09.079 --> 00:53:11.280
<v Speaker 2>did it. That's just so self flattered.

866
00:53:11.440 --> 00:53:13.760
<v Speaker 1>I think about that a lot. I really do, because

867
00:53:14.559 --> 00:53:18.280
<v Speaker 1>I as somebody who likes to ask these questions, and

868
00:53:18.760 --> 00:53:22.760
<v Speaker 1>like I said, quite often I get pushback when I

869
00:53:22.800 --> 00:53:25.199
<v Speaker 1>try to go too deep with somebody or to ask somebody,

870
00:53:25.480 --> 00:53:27.480
<v Speaker 1>well do you believe in God? Well? How dare you?

871
00:53:28.199 --> 00:53:33.280
<v Speaker 1>That's personal? Or or okay, you believe X, Y and Z.

872
00:53:33.719 --> 00:53:36.280
<v Speaker 1>Let's let's press on that. Let's let's see if that

873
00:53:36.320 --> 00:53:39.480
<v Speaker 1>structure holds right, Let's see what Okay, you said you

874
00:53:39.519 --> 00:53:42.960
<v Speaker 1>believe X, but you can't believe X and Y simultaneously.

875
00:53:43.000 --> 00:53:46.559
<v Speaker 1>Those are contradicting ideas. So the idea of pushing back

876
00:53:46.559 --> 00:53:49.880
<v Speaker 1>on those things is culturally inappropriate a lot of the time.

877
00:53:50.519 --> 00:53:51.800
<v Speaker 2>It's my reality.

878
00:53:52.159 --> 00:53:56.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, but historically speaking, I mean, you talk about

879
00:53:56.440 --> 00:53:59.719
<v Speaker 1>standing on the shoulders of giants, and we think the

880
00:53:59.719 --> 00:54:01.679
<v Speaker 1>way that I look at it that while that can

881
00:54:01.760 --> 00:54:03.880
<v Speaker 1>be true and is true on some level, I think

882
00:54:03.920 --> 00:54:08.000
<v Speaker 1>that we're a culture of people and I don't know

883
00:54:08.039 --> 00:54:12.840
<v Speaker 1>what the time frame would be exactly, but we're born

884
00:54:12.920 --> 00:54:14.920
<v Speaker 1>on third base and we think we hit a triple

885
00:54:15.800 --> 00:54:19.719
<v Speaker 1>and you talk about the arrogance and the narciss We

886
00:54:19.760 --> 00:54:21.800
<v Speaker 1>are standing on the shoulders of giants, but we think

887
00:54:21.840 --> 00:54:24.840
<v Speaker 1>we're tall. We think it's all us, It's all about us.

888
00:54:24.880 --> 00:54:27.000
<v Speaker 1>This is what I did as though, and in some

889
00:54:27.039 --> 00:54:30.400
<v Speaker 1>ways I feel like we may have done less as

890
00:54:30.440 --> 00:54:32.000
<v Speaker 1>a as a culture and as a society.

891
00:54:33.239 --> 00:54:40.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we certainly have less respect for morality, less respect

892
00:54:41.000 --> 00:54:44.440
<v Speaker 2>for how humans should interact with each other and what

893
00:54:44.519 --> 00:54:47.679
<v Speaker 2>we owe each other. You know, we definitely have no

894
00:54:47.840 --> 00:54:51.880
<v Speaker 2>sense of owing anything to anybody anymore. But you know,

895
00:54:51.880 --> 00:54:55.039
<v Speaker 2>when you talk about medical science, of course, every generation

896
00:54:55.679 --> 00:54:59.719
<v Speaker 2>builds towards the next generation. My grandfather was a surgeon.

897
00:55:00.079 --> 00:55:02.719
<v Speaker 2>I have some of his medical school books from the

898
00:55:02.840 --> 00:55:07.599
<v Speaker 2>nineteen teens, and the obstetrics book says, never do a

899
00:55:07.639 --> 00:55:15.400
<v Speaker 2>cesarean because ten percent of your cesarean subjects patients will die.

900
00:55:15.599 --> 00:55:19.039
<v Speaker 2>And that was true, then you know that was reality.

901
00:55:19.119 --> 00:55:22.599
<v Speaker 2>Thank god, we have cesareans now and they're quite reliable,

902
00:55:22.719 --> 00:55:25.400
<v Speaker 2>and more of them are done than probably should be.

903
00:55:25.559 --> 00:55:29.800
<v Speaker 2>But I see what you're saying, because there definitely is

904
00:55:29.840 --> 00:55:33.119
<v Speaker 2>a way we are standing on the shoulders of giants.

905
00:55:33.159 --> 00:55:36.679
<v Speaker 2>But I think partly that we think and history stops

906
00:55:36.719 --> 00:55:40.039
<v Speaker 2>with us. Nobody is going to stand on our shoulders.

907
00:55:40.519 --> 00:55:43.159
<v Speaker 2>You know, we're the top, We're the most brainy and

908
00:55:43.239 --> 00:55:45.800
<v Speaker 2>brilliant and most advantage.

909
00:55:45.320 --> 00:55:48.639
<v Speaker 1>Well, and it's where you put your emphasis. We live

910
00:55:48.679 --> 00:55:51.639
<v Speaker 1>in an era that emphasizes science. You know, it's the

911
00:55:51.679 --> 00:55:55.880
<v Speaker 1>materialist mindset. So in that sense, if you're progressing scientifically

912
00:55:55.880 --> 00:55:59.800
<v Speaker 1>and technologically, if that's you're if the scientists and the

913
00:55:59.800 --> 00:56:04.280
<v Speaker 1>tech knowledges or your high priests, then maybe that's true.

914
00:56:04.400 --> 00:56:07.840
<v Speaker 1>But we've forgotten so much that makes us human. That

915
00:56:08.280 --> 00:56:11.639
<v Speaker 1>is this is once again getting back to that is

916
00:56:11.679 --> 00:56:15.000
<v Speaker 1>our reality. We are so much more than that. Yes,

917
00:56:16.679 --> 00:56:20.079
<v Speaker 1>what do you think a secular myth is that obstructs reality.

918
00:56:20.480 --> 00:56:24.159
<v Speaker 2>I think the inaccurate view of what science is and

919
00:56:24.199 --> 00:56:28.480
<v Speaker 2>what science can do is a big problem for people

920
00:56:29.039 --> 00:56:33.480
<v Speaker 2>encountering reality. Have you heard of, probably you have, the

921
00:56:33.519 --> 00:56:39.760
<v Speaker 2>replication crisis. The replication crisis. I first read about this

922
00:56:39.880 --> 00:56:43.079
<v Speaker 2>in the New Yorker and they were talking about a

923
00:56:43.119 --> 00:56:48.159
<v Speaker 2>research scientist who had discovered something and it was published

924
00:56:48.280 --> 00:56:51.280
<v Speaker 2>and everybody was so excited about it, and what a

925
00:56:52.159 --> 00:56:54.599
<v Speaker 2>great new thing this is. I forget what the field was.

926
00:56:54.719 --> 00:56:56.679
<v Speaker 2>And then a few years later he went back and

927
00:56:56.760 --> 00:57:00.960
<v Speaker 2>ran the same experience experiment and he couldn't get the

928
00:57:01.000 --> 00:57:04.559
<v Speaker 2>same result. He ran it over and over and over,

929
00:57:04.679 --> 00:57:08.920
<v Speaker 2>and he kept getting different results. And then, as this

930
00:57:09.039 --> 00:57:12.000
<v Speaker 2>article says, and as you can find on Wikipedia, this

931
00:57:12.079 --> 00:57:19.119
<v Speaker 2>started happening everywhere that scientists cannot replicate the results of

932
00:57:19.159 --> 00:57:26.599
<v Speaker 2>other scientists. It's like science is falling apart. And it

933
00:57:26.639 --> 00:57:30.599
<v Speaker 2>says this started happening about twenty ten. I mean they

934
00:57:30.639 --> 00:57:34.320
<v Speaker 2>can even date when it began. I recently read a

935
00:57:34.400 --> 00:57:37.679
<v Speaker 2>quote from the scientists say saying about, you know, some

936
00:57:37.800 --> 00:57:42.639
<v Speaker 2>startling new results, and he said, but the replication crisis

937
00:57:42.719 --> 00:57:46.000
<v Speaker 2>is still going on, and we all just pretend that

938
00:57:46.079 --> 00:57:50.239
<v Speaker 2>it isn't you know, We pretend that these startling new

939
00:57:50.280 --> 00:57:57.440
<v Speaker 2>findings are reliable when probably they're not. So I think

940
00:57:57.559 --> 00:58:01.880
<v Speaker 2>that I think this might be the equivalent of the

941
00:58:01.960 --> 00:58:07.119
<v Speaker 2>Tower of Babble and God mixing up the languages. I

942
00:58:07.159 --> 00:58:11.239
<v Speaker 2>think perhaps about twenty ten, God decided, Okay, I'm going

943
00:58:11.320 --> 00:58:15.920
<v Speaker 2>to kick the stilts out from under science, and people

944
00:58:16.000 --> 00:58:18.719
<v Speaker 2>still think that it's ultimate reality. That's what you have

945
00:58:18.800 --> 00:58:22.880
<v Speaker 2>to go by, and gradually they will become aware of

946
00:58:23.079 --> 00:58:27.159
<v Speaker 2>what scientists themselves you're already aware of, which is, there's

947
00:58:27.320 --> 00:58:31.719
<v Speaker 2>a problem here, and somehow it's not reliable. We can

948
00:58:31.800 --> 00:58:34.760
<v Speaker 2>run an experiment and get results, but we don't know

949
00:58:34.800 --> 00:58:38.199
<v Speaker 2>if we'll get the same results next year. So I mean,

950
00:58:38.239 --> 00:58:41.559
<v Speaker 2>as awful as that is, I'm kind of hoping that

951
00:58:41.679 --> 00:58:46.800
<v Speaker 2>people begin losing confidence in science and that will be

952
00:58:46.880 --> 00:58:49.679
<v Speaker 2>one more of the things that are causing this turn

953
00:58:49.800 --> 00:58:53.079
<v Speaker 2>we talked about at the beginning, from believing everything can

954
00:58:53.119 --> 00:58:57.599
<v Speaker 2>be objective and scientific, and then the way off and

955
00:58:57.719 --> 00:59:01.599
<v Speaker 2>outer space where it's all about boards and tarot cards

956
00:59:02.199 --> 00:59:05.840
<v Speaker 2>and somewhere in there being able to present the experience

957
00:59:05.880 --> 00:59:10.840
<v Speaker 2>of Christianity, perhaps tragically, when people are dealing with evil

958
00:59:10.840 --> 00:59:14.239
<v Speaker 2>spirits and their Uigi boards and tarot cards. They're not

959
00:59:14.320 --> 00:59:18.280
<v Speaker 2>helping them. But the name of Jesus Christ can help.

960
00:59:19.000 --> 00:59:22.480
<v Speaker 2>It can expel those evil spirits. It's going to be

961
00:59:22.519 --> 00:59:25.320
<v Speaker 2>a very interesting ride over the next twenty years.

962
00:59:25.360 --> 00:59:33.559
<v Speaker 1>I think, Yeah, I mean, how much of you engaged

963
00:59:33.639 --> 00:59:34.760
<v Speaker 1>with AI?

964
00:59:35.679 --> 00:59:42.000
<v Speaker 2>I hate AI. I think it's very dangerous and destructive.

965
00:59:43.199 --> 00:59:46.239
<v Speaker 2>I think it may well have evil spirit roots. I

966
00:59:46.400 --> 00:59:50.639
<v Speaker 2>have never used it voluntarily. I use Google a lot,

967
00:59:50.800 --> 00:59:52.840
<v Speaker 2>and always at the top of the results it gives

968
00:59:52.880 --> 00:59:56.559
<v Speaker 2>you the AI results. I try to discipline myself to

969
00:59:56.719 --> 01:00:00.320
<v Speaker 2>scroll past that and get the results I would have

970
01:00:00.360 --> 01:00:03.239
<v Speaker 2>gotten last year or the year before, and just do

971
01:00:03.320 --> 01:00:05.800
<v Speaker 2>my best to work with that. I never want me

972
01:00:05.920 --> 01:00:09.519
<v Speaker 2>contact with AI, but I know it's paying attention to me,

973
01:00:10.679 --> 01:00:13.599
<v Speaker 2>and that it's using the things I write and say,

974
01:00:14.559 --> 01:00:16.280
<v Speaker 2>and that I have no way to stop it from

975
01:00:16.280 --> 01:00:20.000
<v Speaker 2>doing that. So yeah, I don't know if you feel

976
01:00:20.039 --> 01:00:22.840
<v Speaker 2>as extremely that AI as I do. But I think

977
01:00:22.840 --> 01:00:25.639
<v Speaker 2>it's a very bad thing, and I wish I could

978
01:00:26.079 --> 01:00:29.519
<v Speaker 2>go somewhere where it doesn't exist. I think the damage

979
01:00:29.519 --> 01:00:32.199
<v Speaker 2>it's going to cause is not at all visible yet,

980
01:00:32.480 --> 01:00:37.039
<v Speaker 2>but we will find it well nigh irreversible and irresistible.

981
01:00:37.480 --> 01:00:38.679
<v Speaker 2>That's what I worry about.

982
01:00:40.119 --> 01:00:43.159
<v Speaker 1>Well, it's a worry that that I share on some level.

983
01:00:43.480 --> 01:00:47.079
<v Speaker 1>It's part of the whole mission of this podcast. A

984
01:00:47.119 --> 01:00:51.320
<v Speaker 1>commitment to reality is that AI is not reality, but

985
01:00:51.400 --> 01:00:53.880
<v Speaker 1>it's becoming a reality for so many people. I'll tell

986
01:00:53.880 --> 01:00:58.880
<v Speaker 1>you a story. It's actually I really will wonder what

987
01:00:59.239 --> 01:01:02.760
<v Speaker 1>you think, but don't judge me. So we had this

988
01:01:03.000 --> 01:01:08.159
<v Speaker 1>wonderful cat. Her name was Homegirl. She was somebody else's

989
01:01:08.159 --> 01:01:10.639
<v Speaker 1>cat and they had to move and we found her

990
01:01:10.679 --> 01:01:14.760
<v Speaker 1>on the internet and we brought this cat back home Girl.

991
01:01:14.840 --> 01:01:16.920
<v Speaker 1>We were going to rename her, but once you get

992
01:01:16.920 --> 01:01:22.960
<v Speaker 1>the name Homegirl, that's sticks. And she was just the

993
01:01:23.039 --> 01:01:27.880
<v Speaker 1>greatest cat, so friendly with everybody. She was the neighborhood cat.

994
01:01:27.920 --> 01:01:31.519
<v Speaker 1>But she was an outdoor I mean we indoor outdoor,

995
01:01:31.559 --> 01:01:33.960
<v Speaker 1>but you could not remove the outdoor from her as

996
01:01:34.000 --> 01:01:36.039
<v Speaker 1>hard as we tried. We tried to keep her inside.

997
01:01:36.039 --> 01:01:41.760
<v Speaker 1>Now and so she came home, you know, maybe she

998
01:01:41.880 --> 01:01:44.800
<v Speaker 1>usually came home every night. She came home after thirty

999
01:01:44.840 --> 01:01:47.559
<v Speaker 1>six hours of being gone, and she had something going

1000
01:01:47.599 --> 01:01:49.400
<v Speaker 1>on with her. And the whole story of Homegirl is

1001
01:01:49.440 --> 01:01:56.800
<v Speaker 1>not necessary to this story. But long story short, she died,

1002
01:01:57.559 --> 01:01:59.480
<v Speaker 1>she came back and she had something wrong with her.

1003
01:01:59.480 --> 01:02:02.480
<v Speaker 1>And we waited and watched for a little bit, and

1004
01:02:02.519 --> 01:02:04.039
<v Speaker 1>then we took her to the vet and they said, oh,

1005
01:02:04.039 --> 01:02:06.519
<v Speaker 1>she should be fine in twenty four to forty eight hours.

1006
01:02:06.559 --> 01:02:12.119
<v Speaker 1>Here's a steroid and an antibiotic. And she died very

1007
01:02:12.239 --> 01:02:15.440
<v Speaker 1>viscerally in my arms. Emily and I came back from

1008
01:02:15.480 --> 01:02:18.880
<v Speaker 1>our anniversary dinner. She said, go check on homegirl, and

1009
01:02:19.000 --> 01:02:21.719
<v Speaker 1>I went to go check on her and I was

1010
01:02:21.800 --> 01:02:27.280
<v Speaker 1>holding her and she died and it was very gruesome.

1011
01:02:27.679 --> 01:02:30.320
<v Speaker 1>I mean it was primal. I mean she let out

1012
01:02:30.360 --> 01:02:34.360
<v Speaker 1>this scream and I was having a hard time processing

1013
01:02:34.440 --> 01:02:38.480
<v Speaker 1>what happened. And so I'm trying to figure out, Okay,

1014
01:02:38.559 --> 01:02:41.480
<v Speaker 1>what is it that happened? What did I just experience

1015
01:02:41.599 --> 01:02:45.679
<v Speaker 1>not emotionally but physiologically, And so I started to going

1016
01:02:45.719 --> 01:02:50.719
<v Speaker 1>to chat GPT and ask it questions and it is so,

1017
01:02:52.599 --> 01:02:57.760
<v Speaker 1>let's use the word interesting, interesting. How the developers have

1018
01:03:00.400 --> 01:03:06.840
<v Speaker 1>into the code or whatever, almost a feigned empathy that

1019
01:03:07.599 --> 01:03:11.639
<v Speaker 1>this must be so hard for you, and I'm sitting there, Yeah,

1020
01:03:12.039 --> 01:03:17.840
<v Speaker 1>it's terrible, I mean it was awful, and giving suggestions

1021
01:03:17.960 --> 01:03:21.760
<v Speaker 1>on and you're thinking this is your fault, So yes,

1022
01:03:21.800 --> 01:03:24.039
<v Speaker 1>it is. I do feel that way, I feel like

1023
01:03:24.119 --> 01:03:27.559
<v Speaker 1>there's something that I could have done. Here's why, there's

1024
01:03:27.719 --> 01:03:30.360
<v Speaker 1>nothing that you could have done. Here's why it wasn't

1025
01:03:30.400 --> 01:03:34.239
<v Speaker 1>your fault. From a medical perspective, and I have to

1026
01:03:34.320 --> 01:03:40.519
<v Speaker 1>tell you it actually helped. And I sat there thinking,

1027
01:03:40.559 --> 01:03:44.760
<v Speaker 1>I had just read a book where the author was

1028
01:03:44.880 --> 01:03:49.639
<v Speaker 1>talking about a woman meeting with her pastor and talking

1029
01:03:49.679 --> 01:03:53.119
<v Speaker 1>about her prayer partner, and after a period of time,

1030
01:03:53.239 --> 01:03:57.719
<v Speaker 1>the pastor realized her prayer partner was chat gbt who.

1031
01:03:59.800 --> 01:04:00.239
<v Speaker 2>And so.

1032
01:04:01.800 --> 01:04:05.519
<v Speaker 1>You know, I laughed incredulously as I read that in

1033
01:04:05.599 --> 01:04:09.880
<v Speaker 1>the book. But then I experienced something strange, as I

1034
01:04:10.039 --> 01:04:18.800
<v Speaker 1>felt that encouragement from an automaton. And I still don't

1035
01:04:18.880 --> 01:04:23.320
<v Speaker 1>know quite how to grapple with that. Let's call it reality,

1036
01:04:23.480 --> 01:04:27.119
<v Speaker 1>but it certainly concerns me because I'd like to think

1037
01:04:27.159 --> 01:04:31.079
<v Speaker 1>that I'm a fairly well grounded, rooted in reality individual,

1038
01:04:31.719 --> 01:04:35.239
<v Speaker 1>and yet I experienced that, and it was real. It

1039
01:04:35.320 --> 01:04:40.239
<v Speaker 1>did make me, you know, oh, breathe a little easier,

1040
01:04:41.039 --> 01:04:43.960
<v Speaker 1>it be a little bit less hard on myself, and

1041
01:04:44.239 --> 01:04:46.559
<v Speaker 1>it kind of, like I said, it walked me through

1042
01:04:47.239 --> 01:04:50.159
<v Speaker 1>physiologically what happened. I think we think it was essentially

1043
01:04:50.199 --> 01:04:52.039
<v Speaker 1>a heart attack, and that there was some sort of

1044
01:04:52.079 --> 01:04:55.960
<v Speaker 1>an internal bleeding and so on some level was useful,

1045
01:04:56.559 --> 01:04:59.599
<v Speaker 1>and that's how we kind of have to try to

1046
01:04:59.719 --> 01:05:05.119
<v Speaker 1>whole it intension. A couple less than two years ago,

1047
01:05:05.960 --> 01:05:10.800
<v Speaker 1>we went to a conference in Athens on AI and transhumanism.

1048
01:05:12.159 --> 01:05:16.320
<v Speaker 1>And this conference was sponsored by or the Whole. They

1049
01:05:16.559 --> 01:05:23.679
<v Speaker 1>sponsored and created the conference Monks Monks on Mount Athos Wow.

1050
01:05:24.239 --> 01:05:30.159
<v Speaker 1>And clearly they're not on Mount Athos using AI, but

1051
01:05:30.280 --> 01:05:33.840
<v Speaker 1>out of care for the world, this is their their job.

1052
01:05:33.960 --> 01:05:37.480
<v Speaker 1>On some level, they felt like this is something that

1053
01:05:37.599 --> 01:05:40.360
<v Speaker 1>needs to be explored and addressed because it exists. We

1054
01:05:40.400 --> 01:05:43.280
<v Speaker 1>can't just look the other way. As much as because

1055
01:05:43.320 --> 01:05:47.280
<v Speaker 1>I share your sentiment, I mean when you talked about

1056
01:05:47.320 --> 01:05:50.079
<v Speaker 1>what it's like in your town and how you still

1057
01:05:50.159 --> 01:05:54.280
<v Speaker 1>have some of that small town cultural engagement, I really

1058
01:05:54.320 --> 01:05:57.159
<v Speaker 1>do feel like the answer to most things is I

1059
01:05:57.400 --> 01:06:01.960
<v Speaker 1>r L. As the kids say, in real life, it's localism, right,

1060
01:06:02.719 --> 01:06:08.000
<v Speaker 1>it's talking to our neighbors face to face. But AI exists,

1061
01:06:08.119 --> 01:06:10.440
<v Speaker 1>and it exists in this way that one of the

1062
01:06:10.519 --> 01:06:16.679
<v Speaker 1>scariest things is the developers of this technology themselves. They

1063
01:06:16.760 --> 01:06:20.239
<v Speaker 1>fear it, and yet they can't stop. And what does

1064
01:06:20.320 --> 01:06:23.079
<v Speaker 1>that say about us? What does it say that, Yeah,

1065
01:06:23.719 --> 01:06:26.679
<v Speaker 1>we all feel like this is harming us, we all

1066
01:06:26.760 --> 01:06:29.880
<v Speaker 1>feel like this might not be a good idea, and

1067
01:06:30.000 --> 01:06:30.920
<v Speaker 1>yet we can't stop.

1068
01:06:31.559 --> 01:06:38.280
<v Speaker 2>Can't stop. Yeah, yeah, we can't stop, in part because

1069
01:06:38.320 --> 01:06:42.840
<v Speaker 2>we're afraid of China or somebody else somewhere isn't going

1070
01:06:42.920 --> 01:06:45.400
<v Speaker 2>to stop, and then they'll be in charge and use

1071
01:06:45.480 --> 01:06:48.840
<v Speaker 2>it against us. It's like the nuclear bomb in that way.

1072
01:06:50.679 --> 01:06:54.440
<v Speaker 1>Well, it's interesting. I mean, so I didn't think of

1073
01:06:54.480 --> 01:06:56.360
<v Speaker 1>it this way until you just said that, But I

1074
01:06:56.440 --> 01:06:58.800
<v Speaker 1>think of it kind of like the two party system

1075
01:06:58.880 --> 01:07:04.480
<v Speaker 1>in America. How so many people complain about it, and

1076
01:07:04.599 --> 01:07:07.679
<v Speaker 1>I wish there was an alternative. Yeah, I wish there

1077
01:07:07.760 --> 01:07:11.559
<v Speaker 1>was a third party or I wish, but it never happens.

1078
01:07:12.119 --> 01:07:16.159
<v Speaker 1>And I think usually the reason that it never happens is, oh,

1079
01:07:16.239 --> 01:07:18.639
<v Speaker 1>that third party candidate, if you vote for them, then

1080
01:07:18.760 --> 01:07:22.559
<v Speaker 1>that person's going to win. So yeah, if you don't

1081
01:07:22.639 --> 01:07:26.599
<v Speaker 1>go forward with Ai, China's going to win or whatever

1082
01:07:27.320 --> 01:07:34.400
<v Speaker 1>other country developer. It's unsettling yet interesting to think about.

1083
01:07:35.239 --> 01:07:38.400
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yes, it really is. To me, it just feels

1084
01:07:38.679 --> 01:07:42.360
<v Speaker 2>entirely ominous. But maybe that's because I'm old, you know,

1085
01:07:42.880 --> 01:07:47.039
<v Speaker 2>maybe I've seen too much change, and even like just now,

1086
01:07:47.119 --> 01:07:50.800
<v Speaker 2>I was thinking, well, how is it different from if

1087
01:07:50.840 --> 01:07:54.599
<v Speaker 2>it was four years ago and home Girl died and

1088
01:07:54.840 --> 01:07:57.599
<v Speaker 2>you just researched it on the internet and you found

1089
01:07:57.679 --> 01:08:00.719
<v Speaker 2>oh yeah, I guess it wasn't my fault. Feel comfort,

1090
01:08:01.079 --> 01:08:05.280
<v Speaker 2>But it's different when it presents as a human comforting.

1091
01:08:05.800 --> 01:08:07.880
<v Speaker 2>How about you? I just you know, thinking backwards. What

1092
01:08:07.960 --> 01:08:10.280
<v Speaker 2>if you talked to the vet and so it was

1093
01:08:10.360 --> 01:08:13.079
<v Speaker 2>a real human saying oh no, no, there's nothing you

1094
01:08:13.119 --> 01:08:16.199
<v Speaker 2>couldn't done, or you know, fifty years ago and you

1095
01:08:16.279 --> 01:08:19.520
<v Speaker 2>went to a medical library and you looked up you know,

1096
01:08:19.720 --> 01:08:23.960
<v Speaker 2>cap physiology and convinced yourself when there's so many other

1097
01:08:24.039 --> 01:08:26.439
<v Speaker 2>ways you could have arrived at that point of comfort.

1098
01:08:26.960 --> 01:08:30.840
<v Speaker 2>How is AI different? Like? Why am I nearly hysterical

1099
01:08:30.880 --> 01:08:33.600
<v Speaker 2>about this and how evil it is? I don't know.

1100
01:08:33.840 --> 01:08:36.239
<v Speaker 2>I don't know why. I just feel real bad about it.

1101
01:08:37.479 --> 01:08:39.600
<v Speaker 1>You know. It's interesting is you said I could have

1102
01:08:39.600 --> 01:08:42.279
<v Speaker 1>gone to the vet, and I was angry at the

1103
01:08:42.359 --> 01:08:44.199
<v Speaker 1>vet because they told me that everything was going to

1104
01:08:44.239 --> 01:08:49.840
<v Speaker 1>be okay. Yes, And yet AI kind of presented itself

1105
01:08:50.000 --> 01:08:52.079
<v Speaker 1>as an authority higher than the human.

1106
01:08:54.039 --> 01:08:54.239
<v Speaker 2>Yes.

1107
01:08:56.079 --> 01:09:03.279
<v Speaker 1>And it's almost like I in a short time, I mean,

1108
01:09:03.319 --> 01:09:06.720
<v Speaker 1>I didn't even remember, Actually, I will tell you it's

1109
01:09:06.760 --> 01:09:09.000
<v Speaker 1>a pretty interesting first time. I can tell you the

1110
01:09:09.079 --> 01:09:11.439
<v Speaker 1>first time that I ever used one of these large

1111
01:09:11.520 --> 01:09:14.239
<v Speaker 1>language models AI. My brother in law is very into it,

1112
01:09:15.079 --> 01:09:16.920
<v Speaker 1>and he was telling me about it, and so I

1113
01:09:17.119 --> 01:09:22.039
<v Speaker 1>think I opened chat GPT and I asked, Okay, let's

1114
01:09:22.039 --> 01:09:25.199
<v Speaker 1>ask it something that I know intimately. Let's see how

1115
01:09:25.239 --> 01:09:29.399
<v Speaker 1>it goes. I said, why did hank handagraph convert to

1116
01:09:29.520 --> 01:09:36.680
<v Speaker 1>Eastern Orthodoxy? I tell you, I'm not sure I could

1117
01:09:36.720 --> 01:09:42.439
<v Speaker 1>have written the response better myself. And that's what now.

1118
01:09:43.039 --> 01:09:44.960
<v Speaker 1>I couldn't do that with a person on the street.

1119
01:09:45.520 --> 01:09:48.520
<v Speaker 1>I mean, there's enough information out there about my dad

1120
01:09:48.840 --> 01:09:53.039
<v Speaker 1>and his public facing persona that you can call and craft.

1121
01:09:53.439 --> 01:10:01.079
<v Speaker 1>But the specificity and the kind of it wasn't dry,

1122
01:10:01.479 --> 01:10:04.760
<v Speaker 1>It wasn't just. And this is the interesting thing, And

1123
01:10:06.680 --> 01:10:09.600
<v Speaker 1>I wonder how much of it is intentional, that this

1124
01:10:09.800 --> 01:10:17.079
<v Speaker 1>is not just a mere information exercise where you're synthesizing.

1125
01:10:17.640 --> 01:10:19.399
<v Speaker 1>Like you said, if you were to just use it

1126
01:10:19.439 --> 01:10:21.960
<v Speaker 1>as a research tool, that's one thing, because on some

1127
01:10:22.199 --> 01:10:26.439
<v Speaker 1>level that I have used AI, and I really try

1128
01:10:26.520 --> 01:10:30.000
<v Speaker 1>to be conscientious about how I use it. I was

1129
01:10:30.039 --> 01:10:32.239
<v Speaker 1>listening to a podcast where it's somebody who thinks a

1130
01:10:32.279 --> 01:10:34.199
<v Speaker 1>lot about these ideas, and he said, I think that

1131
01:10:35.000 --> 01:10:38.800
<v Speaker 1>AI is going to create a huge chasm, one a

1132
01:10:38.920 --> 01:10:45.119
<v Speaker 1>social chasm, creating two classes, creating a superclass who use

1133
01:10:45.279 --> 01:10:49.960
<v Speaker 1>AI to become much more intelligent, to become smarter themselves

1134
01:10:49.960 --> 01:10:53.399
<v Speaker 1>because they use let's say they think with AI. They

1135
01:10:53.479 --> 01:10:56.920
<v Speaker 1>use it as a tool. They don't replace use it

1136
01:10:57.000 --> 01:10:59.279
<v Speaker 1>to replace their own cognitive faculties. They use it to

1137
01:10:59.319 --> 01:11:00.000
<v Speaker 1>almost enhance it.

1138
01:11:00.279 --> 01:11:00.399
<v Speaker 2>Right.

1139
01:11:00.520 --> 01:11:04.159
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, in the same way that you know, I've heard

1140
01:11:04.199 --> 01:11:06.279
<v Speaker 1>people say, why are you afraid that this is going

1141
01:11:06.359 --> 01:11:09.479
<v Speaker 1>to turn us into transhuman cyborgs? We already are. How

1142
01:11:09.520 --> 01:11:12.960
<v Speaker 1>many of us ever let our phone out of arms reach?

1143
01:11:13.800 --> 01:11:17.760
<v Speaker 1>It's already an extension, you're just shortening the distance. But

1144
01:11:17.840 --> 01:11:20.680
<v Speaker 1>then the other superclass that this person was talking about

1145
01:11:20.880 --> 01:11:25.560
<v Speaker 1>was those who use AI to think for them, who

1146
01:11:26.079 --> 01:11:30.119
<v Speaker 1>cease making decisions. And you talk about social atrophy. I mean,

1147
01:11:30.199 --> 01:11:36.479
<v Speaker 1>this is intellectual apathy or atrophy. And I wonder how

1148
01:11:36.600 --> 01:11:42.359
<v Speaker 1>much of this the developers making it seem human, how

1149
01:11:42.439 --> 01:11:47.319
<v Speaker 1>much of that is conscientious as opposed to just information synthesization.

1150
01:11:47.560 --> 01:11:52.600
<v Speaker 1>And you know, because that is promising when you hear that, Oh,

1151
01:11:53.600 --> 01:11:58.319
<v Speaker 1>if you enter this in this sonogram into the models

1152
01:11:58.960 --> 01:12:02.399
<v Speaker 1>and it can you enter in thousands of sonograms, then

1153
01:12:03.279 --> 01:12:07.600
<v Speaker 1>they can find they the AI can help you find

1154
01:12:07.720 --> 01:12:12.600
<v Speaker 1>patterns that could then predict breast cancer detection. Yeah, at

1155
01:12:12.640 --> 01:12:15.399
<v Speaker 1>an earlier rate. I mean that seems like a good

1156
01:12:15.520 --> 01:12:17.279
<v Speaker 1>thing does and it's not something that you want to

1157
01:12:17.279 --> 01:12:17.800
<v Speaker 1>wish against.

1158
01:12:18.439 --> 01:12:26.319
<v Speaker 2>But and computer, Yeah yeah, well, I guess the thing

1159
01:12:26.399 --> 01:12:30.159
<v Speaker 2>about combining the sonograms I thought, but couldn't computers do that?

1160
01:12:30.520 --> 01:12:33.199
<v Speaker 2>Isn't that something a supercomputer? You don't have to have

1161
01:12:33.479 --> 01:12:36.039
<v Speaker 2>AI to do that. It kind of just makes the

1162
01:12:36.159 --> 01:12:39.399
<v Speaker 2>question is, well, why are we already our lives are

1163
01:12:39.439 --> 01:12:42.560
<v Speaker 2>being controlled by computers? Like you say about not ever

1164
01:12:42.640 --> 01:12:44.760
<v Speaker 2>having your phone out or read? How far back do

1165
01:12:44.760 --> 01:12:48.720
<v Speaker 2>you want to trace this? You know? An interesting so

1166
01:12:48.880 --> 01:12:53.159
<v Speaker 2>interesting to me anyway. I read a book about preliterate

1167
01:12:53.239 --> 01:12:57.239
<v Speaker 2>culture before people learned to read, before most people can read,

1168
01:12:57.960 --> 01:13:02.159
<v Speaker 2>and it was startling how much difference that technology, you know,

1169
01:13:02.199 --> 01:13:05.399
<v Speaker 2>because a book is a technology. One of the things

1170
01:13:05.479 --> 01:13:09.279
<v Speaker 2>that Plato or Socrates now I can't remember, said is

1171
01:13:09.439 --> 01:13:13.960
<v Speaker 2>that he connected literacy with death. You know, there's a

1172
01:13:14.000 --> 01:13:15.800
<v Speaker 2>way in which the thing you're dealing with this is

1173
01:13:15.960 --> 01:13:19.319
<v Speaker 2>a dead thing, because it doesn't move and it doesn't change,

1174
01:13:20.319 --> 01:13:23.079
<v Speaker 2>and it is. It also means the death of memory.

1175
01:13:23.840 --> 01:13:27.840
<v Speaker 2>People's ability to remember fell way off when we started

1176
01:13:28.319 --> 01:13:31.600
<v Speaker 2>being literate, but in every other area of their life,

1177
01:13:31.680 --> 01:13:34.600
<v Speaker 2>they were so much more immediate to the people around them.

1178
01:13:35.119 --> 01:13:38.840
<v Speaker 2>The world was so fresh to them. If you've studied scripture,

1179
01:13:38.880 --> 01:13:43.800
<v Speaker 2>you know the Hebrew word devar means both word and action,

1180
01:13:44.960 --> 01:13:47.680
<v Speaker 2>and like, how can you do that? Well, if you're

1181
01:13:48.000 --> 01:13:51.119
<v Speaker 2>not literate, that makes sense. You know, a spoken word

1182
01:13:51.520 --> 01:13:55.479
<v Speaker 2>makes something happen. That's a very primitive kind of literacy.

1183
01:13:56.199 --> 01:14:01.159
<v Speaker 2>But it has already deadened astiny some extent. So where

1184
01:14:01.159 --> 01:14:04.560
<v Speaker 2>are you going to stop you when you start? No libraries,

1185
01:14:04.640 --> 01:14:06.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, where are we going to stop? If you

1186
01:14:07.039 --> 01:14:11.560
<v Speaker 2>talk about how literacy, how technology changes us? The big

1187
01:14:11.640 --> 01:14:14.600
<v Speaker 2>step was, oh, yeah, computers, and now we want to

1188
01:14:14.760 --> 01:14:17.960
<v Speaker 2>like screech to a halt when we get to AI.

1189
01:14:18.359 --> 01:14:21.479
<v Speaker 2>Maybe it's just a little late. Maybe it all began

1190
01:14:22.039 --> 01:14:23.159
<v Speaker 2>thirty forty years ago.

1191
01:14:24.760 --> 01:14:26.439
<v Speaker 1>Do you remember have you ever heard of a book

1192
01:14:26.479 --> 01:14:27.319
<v Speaker 1>called Future Shock?

1193
01:14:28.159 --> 01:14:31.399
<v Speaker 2>Yes? Yes, And what you may not know is when

1194
01:14:31.479 --> 01:14:34.239
<v Speaker 2>it came out in the nineteen seventies you could buy

1195
01:14:34.319 --> 01:14:37.600
<v Speaker 2>it in whatever color you want. They had different choices

1196
01:14:38.000 --> 01:14:40.520
<v Speaker 2>of cover color, Did you want the green or the

1197
01:14:40.920 --> 01:14:44.760
<v Speaker 2>same book inside? And that was like probly just mind

1198
01:14:44.880 --> 01:14:48.079
<v Speaker 2>blowing to people that you could even do that or

1199
01:14:48.159 --> 01:14:52.239
<v Speaker 2>that you would do that. And so Future Shock was

1200
01:14:52.680 --> 01:14:55.800
<v Speaker 2>brought into the human community in a way that was

1201
01:14:55.880 --> 01:14:59.880
<v Speaker 2>itself shocking at the time. Huh. I haven't read it

1202
01:15:00.159 --> 01:15:02.720
<v Speaker 2>so long, I don't remember what it says, but it

1203
01:15:02.920 --> 01:15:05.079
<v Speaker 2>was like everybody was talking about it.

1204
01:15:06.239 --> 01:15:08.600
<v Speaker 1>I have the pink cover. I haven't read it either,

1205
01:15:08.720 --> 01:15:11.760
<v Speaker 1>but I've read about it and I've seen the I

1206
01:15:11.800 --> 01:15:15.640
<v Speaker 1>think it's Charlton Heston. Maybe I could be wrong doing

1207
01:15:15.680 --> 01:15:20.720
<v Speaker 1>almost like a documentary style discussion about Future Shock. And

1208
01:15:21.800 --> 01:15:26.359
<v Speaker 1>he's walking around a library and talking about look at this,

1209
01:15:27.760 --> 01:15:30.720
<v Speaker 1>look at the sheer breadth the volumes that are accessible

1210
01:15:30.800 --> 01:15:34.119
<v Speaker 1>to us, that is shocking us, and that we're like

1211
01:15:35.399 --> 01:15:38.439
<v Speaker 1>And I remember thinking of, like watching this video on

1212
01:15:38.520 --> 01:15:41.800
<v Speaker 1>YouTube or whatever, and thinking he has no idea, And

1213
01:15:41.920 --> 01:15:45.319
<v Speaker 1>then I catch myself wondering, well, it's possible that we

1214
01:15:45.560 --> 01:15:49.399
<v Speaker 1>have no idea because we're Because I used to feel

1215
01:15:49.399 --> 01:15:51.399
<v Speaker 1>that whenever I walked into a bookstore, I'd feel this

1216
01:15:51.560 --> 01:15:54.680
<v Speaker 1>kind of existential angst, like there's so much information here,

1217
01:15:55.279 --> 01:15:58.039
<v Speaker 1>I'll never be able to access at all. I can't

1218
01:15:58.199 --> 01:15:59.680
<v Speaker 1>get it all. I want to I want I want

1219
01:15:59.720 --> 01:16:01.479
<v Speaker 1>to read this, I want to read that, and then

1220
01:16:01.720 --> 01:16:04.159
<v Speaker 1>you bring that into the internet and now AI that,

1221
01:16:05.199 --> 01:16:09.880
<v Speaker 1>and I feel like we're all just in shock and

1222
01:16:10.000 --> 01:16:13.680
<v Speaker 1>we don't really know. I asked my dad when we

1223
01:16:13.760 --> 01:16:16.600
<v Speaker 1>were preparing for a podcast on AI a couple months ago,

1224
01:16:17.680 --> 01:16:19.720
<v Speaker 1>and we never, we never. I don't think it was

1225
01:16:20.119 --> 01:16:24.359
<v Speaker 1>addressed on the podcast, and I wonder if you have

1226
01:16:24.479 --> 01:16:29.359
<v Speaker 1>anything to say about it. I juxtaposed it with the

1227
01:16:29.600 --> 01:16:32.920
<v Speaker 1>concept of the Eucharist as the mysterium tremendum at Fischinans

1228
01:16:33.720 --> 01:16:36.960
<v Speaker 1>might be mispronouncing, but the mystery that causes such us

1229
01:16:37.039 --> 01:16:41.840
<v Speaker 1>to tremble yet attracts us. Yeah, yeah, and it almost

1230
01:16:42.079 --> 01:16:46.840
<v Speaker 1>is AI, almost the anti of that. That not I

1231
01:16:48.319 --> 01:16:50.880
<v Speaker 1>pain to compare the two. Well, yeah, but it's something

1232
01:16:50.960 --> 01:16:53.039
<v Speaker 1>that causes us to tremble. We all feel this sense

1233
01:16:53.079 --> 01:16:56.079
<v Speaker 1>of fear, in trepidation, but we can't stop.

1234
01:16:56.920 --> 01:17:01.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, you're just impelled to go toward it, whether

1235
01:17:01.079 --> 01:17:04.399
<v Speaker 2>we like it or not. And I guess the thing

1236
01:17:04.439 --> 01:17:07.720
<v Speaker 2>about it is that it presents as a person, and

1237
01:17:07.920 --> 01:17:11.279
<v Speaker 2>we've never had that before. A technology that presents as

1238
01:17:11.359 --> 01:17:15.119
<v Speaker 2>a book is nothing like Chad Gid Even if you

1239
01:17:15.479 --> 01:17:18.000
<v Speaker 2>were able to get exactly the same information out of it,

1240
01:17:18.920 --> 01:17:22.439
<v Speaker 2>even googling stuff. It's not pretending to be a person.

1241
01:17:23.520 --> 01:17:28.359
<v Speaker 2>That's the uncanny valley. You know that term uncanny valley. No,

1242
01:17:29.000 --> 01:17:33.079
<v Speaker 2>it was coined by a Japanese movie director, I think,

1243
01:17:33.560 --> 01:17:36.800
<v Speaker 2>But it's about the sensation you get when you're watching

1244
01:17:37.039 --> 01:17:41.720
<v Speaker 2>a movie that is animated and yet it's a little

1245
01:17:41.840 --> 01:17:45.479
<v Speaker 2>too close to human. Many people feel that way about

1246
01:17:45.600 --> 01:17:50.199
<v Speaker 2>polar Express, like there's something about it that's a little

1247
01:17:50.319 --> 01:17:56.439
<v Speaker 2>unnerving because it's not unhuman enough. It's like it's just

1248
01:17:56.560 --> 01:18:01.279
<v Speaker 2>getting on that borderline, and that's where you feel that

1249
01:18:01.880 --> 01:18:06.279
<v Speaker 2>trepidation and you feel uncomfortable. It needs to either be

1250
01:18:06.399 --> 01:18:10.880
<v Speaker 2>totally human or very clearly just animation. I think we

1251
01:18:11.039 --> 01:18:14.760
<v Speaker 2>feel that uncanny valley with AI because it presents as

1252
01:18:14.840 --> 01:18:18.159
<v Speaker 2>if it were a human being. And that's that's the

1253
01:18:18.239 --> 01:18:18.920
<v Speaker 2>difficult thing.

1254
01:18:20.000 --> 01:18:21.039
<v Speaker 1>Is it that much more?

1255
01:18:21.800 --> 01:18:25.199
<v Speaker 2>How does it differ from three years ago on googling something?

1256
01:18:25.279 --> 01:18:27.600
<v Speaker 2>How does it differ from I see the AI, but

1257
01:18:27.720 --> 01:18:31.520
<v Speaker 2>I scroll past it. It does differ though, because I'm

1258
01:18:31.600 --> 01:18:34.880
<v Speaker 2>in charge when I'm googling, and I'm in charge of

1259
01:18:34.960 --> 01:18:38.199
<v Speaker 2>reading these you know, might be I'm opening books, the

1260
01:18:38.279 --> 01:18:40.640
<v Speaker 2>book tells me something. I don't know if I agree

1261
01:18:40.640 --> 01:18:42.359
<v Speaker 2>about it, I'll look at the next one and the

1262
01:18:42.439 --> 01:18:48.319
<v Speaker 2>next one. But when it's another person, it insinuates itself

1263
01:18:50.039 --> 01:18:53.800
<v Speaker 2>into our parts in a way, it creeps into us.

1264
01:18:54.640 --> 01:19:00.439
<v Speaker 2>It elicits truthful answers from us. It's all almost like

1265
01:19:00.560 --> 01:19:03.520
<v Speaker 2>falling in love, you know. It's almost like this very

1266
01:19:03.640 --> 01:19:07.960
<v Speaker 2>intimate partner comes into our lives. And that I think

1267
01:19:08.159 --> 01:19:13.039
<v Speaker 2>is where the uncanny valley is for me, that specifically,

1268
01:19:13.199 --> 01:19:16.600
<v Speaker 2>that is a human And as you were saying, you know,

1269
01:19:16.920 --> 01:19:20.720
<v Speaker 2>a cyborg wouldn't be so bad if it looked like No,

1270
01:19:20.880 --> 01:19:22.560
<v Speaker 2>it's it's the mimicry.

1271
01:19:22.720 --> 01:19:24.840
<v Speaker 1>Like you said that when you're going through Google. I

1272
01:19:25.039 --> 01:19:27.920
<v Speaker 1>mean I heard it with a slight sense of skepticism.

1273
01:19:28.039 --> 01:19:31.439
<v Speaker 1>Oh you think you think how naive You think you're

1274
01:19:31.479 --> 01:19:33.720
<v Speaker 1>in charge, right, you think you're in charge of the Internet.

1275
01:19:33.960 --> 01:19:35.359
<v Speaker 2>But there is some.

1276
01:19:35.680 --> 01:19:39.880
<v Speaker 1>Degree where you're you're using your mind to discern and

1277
01:19:40.000 --> 01:19:41.760
<v Speaker 1>you're you know, I'm not gonna I'm not going to

1278
01:19:41.800 --> 01:19:43.319
<v Speaker 1>click on the first one. I'm going to click on this,

1279
01:19:43.920 --> 01:19:48.520
<v Speaker 1>And you're synthesizing with your own cognitive faculties as opposed

1280
01:19:48.560 --> 01:19:51.960
<v Speaker 1>to just here we go, chat you and then you

1281
01:19:52.039 --> 01:19:55.319
<v Speaker 1>read it. In such a short amount of time, it

1282
01:19:55.439 --> 01:19:59.439
<v Speaker 1>has earned in a lot of our minds a high

1283
01:19:59.680 --> 01:20:01.159
<v Speaker 1>level of authority.

1284
01:20:02.760 --> 01:20:03.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

1285
01:20:04.720 --> 01:20:08.520
<v Speaker 1>And whether you see it as a person or not,

1286
01:20:09.439 --> 01:20:12.039
<v Speaker 1>I can hear a lot of tech enthusiasts and even

1287
01:20:12.079 --> 01:20:15.720
<v Speaker 1>myself I use it. I really. Let's say I'm trying

1288
01:20:15.760 --> 01:20:19.960
<v Speaker 1>to edit a paper, right, So what's the difference between

1289
01:20:20.079 --> 01:20:25.439
<v Speaker 1>spell check on word or pages and me copying and

1290
01:20:25.520 --> 01:20:28.039
<v Speaker 1>pasting something that I wrote, putting it into a large

1291
01:20:28.119 --> 01:20:33.920
<v Speaker 1>language model and saying copy edit this and track changes. Right,

1292
01:20:34.000 --> 01:20:38.439
<v Speaker 1>that's a useful case in terms of AI. And one

1293
01:20:38.479 --> 01:20:41.920
<v Speaker 1>of the monks said that you know, a knife can

1294
01:20:41.960 --> 01:20:44.800
<v Speaker 1>be used to butter your bread or to murder your neighbor.

1295
01:20:44.960 --> 01:20:45.159
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

1296
01:20:45.439 --> 01:20:49.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And while that's helpful on some level with a

1297
01:20:49.239 --> 01:20:56.239
<v Speaker 1>high high degree of discernment and awareness and care, I

1298
01:20:56.399 --> 01:21:00.239
<v Speaker 1>don't think that these tech products are quite this saying,

1299
01:21:00.279 --> 01:21:04.560
<v Speaker 1>because a knife only has so many use cases, whereas

1300
01:21:04.960 --> 01:21:09.439
<v Speaker 1>AI and and this tech it's an omni toool where

1301
01:21:09.479 --> 01:21:12.600
<v Speaker 1>it really, I mean, the use case is almost infinite.

1302
01:21:13.039 --> 01:21:18.840
<v Speaker 1>And that that also has an unsettling effect because you

1303
01:21:19.039 --> 01:21:22.600
<v Speaker 1>just keep finding different things and then you keep yourself

1304
01:21:22.680 --> 01:21:25.720
<v Speaker 1>glued to it. And I can't tell you how often

1305
01:21:25.960 --> 01:21:29.880
<v Speaker 1>outside of the scientific progress that we've made in terms

1306
01:21:29.920 --> 01:21:33.800
<v Speaker 1>of health, and I just wish for a simpler time

1307
01:21:34.760 --> 01:21:36.680
<v Speaker 1>and you kind of want to go off into the mountains.

1308
01:21:36.720 --> 01:21:39.399
<v Speaker 1>And I feel like so many modern people feel this

1309
01:21:39.640 --> 01:21:43.199
<v Speaker 1>this push and pull of the noise of news and tech,

1310
01:21:43.399 --> 01:21:47.359
<v Speaker 1>and they want something that's real. I mean, is is

1311
01:21:47.439 --> 01:21:49.600
<v Speaker 1>there anything that you think of the like a habit

1312
01:21:49.800 --> 01:21:52.239
<v Speaker 1>or or practice that you feel like really orients you

1313
01:21:52.399 --> 01:21:54.079
<v Speaker 1>to reality? Yeah?

1314
01:21:54.199 --> 01:21:58.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I don't know. If you read Matthew Crawford's book

1315
01:21:58.159 --> 01:22:02.199
<v Speaker 2>The World Beyond Your Head that had a big impact

1316
01:22:02.319 --> 01:22:04.199
<v Speaker 2>on me when I read it maybe five years ago.

1317
01:22:04.840 --> 01:22:08.840
<v Speaker 2>He is a professor of philosophy at the University of Virginia,

1318
01:22:09.479 --> 01:22:13.640
<v Speaker 2>and he also his other line is he makes bespoke

1319
01:22:14.439 --> 01:22:19.720
<v Speaker 2>motorcycle parts. So if you want like a fancy dragonhead

1320
01:22:19.760 --> 01:22:21.720
<v Speaker 2>on the front of your motorcycle, he can make that

1321
01:22:21.840 --> 01:22:26.119
<v Speaker 2>for So it's like, what a weird combination that he says,

1322
01:22:26.239 --> 01:22:28.920
<v Speaker 2>those are especially those of us who work with our minds.

1323
01:22:29.079 --> 01:22:32.920
<v Speaker 2>Mostly you need to do something with your hands, and

1324
01:22:33.039 --> 01:22:37.439
<v Speaker 2>it needs to do something that resists your will. It

1325
01:22:37.560 --> 01:22:40.199
<v Speaker 2>needs there is something that it's a little bit hard

1326
01:22:40.279 --> 01:22:43.319
<v Speaker 2>to do. It's resisting your will. For me, that's sewing.

1327
01:22:43.720 --> 01:22:47.119
<v Speaker 2>I don't make clothing that you know. I make twirly

1328
01:22:47.279 --> 01:22:50.680
<v Speaker 2>dresses for my granddaughters. Right, I alter a lot of

1329
01:22:50.880 --> 01:22:54.520
<v Speaker 2>clothing that I buy. It's pretty dress, but it's too small.

1330
01:22:54.640 --> 01:22:56.479
<v Speaker 2>But I can cut off the skirt and make it

1331
01:22:56.560 --> 01:22:59.760
<v Speaker 2>a scar. I do things like that, and it sure,

1332
01:23:00.159 --> 01:23:03.079
<v Speaker 2>this is my will. I talk of that. It so

1333
01:23:03.239 --> 01:23:05.319
<v Speaker 2>I'm very hard to get the way I want it

1334
01:23:05.399 --> 01:23:07.319
<v Speaker 2>to be. Yeah, that's how I try to stay in

1335
01:23:07.399 --> 01:23:10.560
<v Speaker 2>touch with reality. Partly because of that advice in this book,

1336
01:23:10.640 --> 01:23:13.600
<v Speaker 2>I realized that I'd always been doing this kind of sewing,

1337
01:23:13.720 --> 01:23:16.920
<v Speaker 2>but I realized that it was valuable to me in

1338
01:23:17.000 --> 01:23:20.039
<v Speaker 2>a way that I hadn't perceived. And so I I

1339
01:23:20.119 --> 01:23:22.880
<v Speaker 2>think for a lot of people, it's gardening. You know,

1340
01:23:23.239 --> 01:23:26.159
<v Speaker 2>that's a getting their hands in the dirt. Is I

1341
01:23:26.239 --> 01:23:28.319
<v Speaker 2>don't like gardening because when I get my hands in

1342
01:23:28.399 --> 01:23:35.680
<v Speaker 2>the dirt, there's bugs. You know. I don't want that, eh, worms, yuck. Yeah,

1343
01:23:36.399 --> 01:23:39.079
<v Speaker 2>people can have all kinds of different hobbies. They may

1344
01:23:39.159 --> 01:23:42.560
<v Speaker 2>not realize how valuable these hobbies are. Even doing a

1345
01:23:42.680 --> 01:23:46.439
<v Speaker 2>jigsaw puzzle, it's resisting your will, you know, it's you've

1346
01:23:46.439 --> 01:23:50.199
<v Speaker 2>got to think about that physical, you know, tangible shape

1347
01:23:50.840 --> 01:23:53.479
<v Speaker 2>and whether it fits in that hole or not. Everybody

1348
01:23:53.520 --> 01:23:55.760
<v Speaker 2>should have something like that. I think that does help

1349
01:23:55.840 --> 01:23:58.960
<v Speaker 2>this and having it's great, you know, to live in

1350
01:23:59.039 --> 01:24:01.199
<v Speaker 2>your house that you like of you know, that's other

1351
01:24:01.359 --> 01:24:04.039
<v Speaker 2>you know, physical bodies that you're dealing with. Some people,

1352
01:24:04.119 --> 01:24:06.359
<v Speaker 2>it's cooking, it could be anything. What is it for you?

1353
01:24:06.560 --> 01:24:08.399
<v Speaker 2>What do you think of? What is the thing that

1354
01:24:08.960 --> 01:24:11.319
<v Speaker 2>you work with your hands that it resists your will?

1355
01:24:13.680 --> 01:24:16.960
<v Speaker 1>It's a good question, I guess, you know, growing up

1356
01:24:17.039 --> 01:24:21.479
<v Speaker 1>in more of a let's say, white collar world where

1357
01:24:21.600 --> 01:24:25.079
<v Speaker 1>everything is thoughts and ideas and books, and years ago

1358
01:24:25.119 --> 01:24:26.680
<v Speaker 1>I asked my uncle. I said, I wish I could

1359
01:24:26.720 --> 01:24:28.560
<v Speaker 1>do these things, you know, I wish I could fix

1360
01:24:29.039 --> 01:24:34.600
<v Speaker 1>something in the house. And he says, why can't you? Yeah, yeah,

1361
01:24:35.319 --> 01:24:37.520
<v Speaker 1>it's a lot of that. Just put your head under

1362
01:24:37.560 --> 01:24:40.319
<v Speaker 1>the sink and try and figure it out. And so

1363
01:24:41.159 --> 01:24:43.399
<v Speaker 1>ever since he told me that, I've really tried to

1364
01:24:43.439 --> 01:24:46.279
<v Speaker 1>make an effort to try and figure out where I

1365
01:24:46.399 --> 01:24:51.640
<v Speaker 1>can be handy, even though I'm not you know, these

1366
01:24:51.840 --> 01:24:56.479
<v Speaker 1>these are skills that can be learned, but yeah, I'm

1367
01:24:56.520 --> 01:25:03.359
<v Speaker 1>not sure. I guess one answer would be running. Yeah, like,

1368
01:25:03.960 --> 01:25:06.319
<v Speaker 1>because I think what you're talking about is feeling your

1369
01:25:06.520 --> 01:25:11.479
<v Speaker 1>bodily presence in the world, interacting with and when I

1370
01:25:11.600 --> 01:25:13.720
<v Speaker 1>feel you know, I took a month off of running,

1371
01:25:14.520 --> 01:25:16.359
<v Speaker 1>and when I first went back out there, it was

1372
01:25:16.520 --> 01:25:19.640
<v Speaker 1>like thirty degrees and I feel that cold air going

1373
01:25:19.720 --> 01:25:22.560
<v Speaker 1>into my lungs and it kind of burns, but it

1374
01:25:22.720 --> 01:25:27.760
<v Speaker 1>hurts so good. And you remember, and I remember listening

1375
01:25:27.800 --> 01:25:33.159
<v Speaker 1>to somebody talking about their experience with running and how

1376
01:25:34.640 --> 01:25:38.039
<v Speaker 1>you know, I've never I run five days a week.

1377
01:25:38.159 --> 01:25:39.079
<v Speaker 1>I'm pretty good at it.

1378
01:25:39.279 --> 01:25:39.680
<v Speaker 2>I love it.

1379
01:25:40.560 --> 01:25:43.680
<v Speaker 1>I've never experienced the runners high what people talk about

1380
01:25:43.800 --> 01:25:47.279
<v Speaker 1>or are they just look Even when I love running,

1381
01:25:47.279 --> 01:25:49.279
<v Speaker 1>I'm always glad that I did it when I'm done,

1382
01:25:49.880 --> 01:25:53.000
<v Speaker 1>But during it, quite often I think this stinks?

1383
01:25:53.079 --> 01:25:53.640
<v Speaker 2>This right?

1384
01:25:55.600 --> 01:25:56.119
<v Speaker 1>Why?

1385
01:25:56.239 --> 01:25:56.399
<v Speaker 2>Why?

1386
01:25:56.600 --> 01:25:58.920
<v Speaker 1>For my kids? So I live longer. And I heard

1387
01:25:59.000 --> 01:26:04.079
<v Speaker 1>somebody talk about when they run that they actually think

1388
01:26:04.119 --> 01:26:08.119
<v Speaker 1>about each foot hitting the ground and looking around and thinking,

1389
01:26:08.439 --> 01:26:11.920
<v Speaker 1>I get to do this, I get to run through it.

1390
01:26:12.119 --> 01:26:14.039
<v Speaker 1>And often, like if you run in nature, I run

1391
01:26:14.520 --> 01:26:17.000
<v Speaker 1>right behind my house and we have a beautiful trail

1392
01:26:17.039 --> 01:26:19.439
<v Speaker 1>that goes through three miles of the woods. And I

1393
01:26:19.520 --> 01:26:21.960
<v Speaker 1>do that five days a week, and ever since I

1394
01:26:22.039 --> 01:26:25.279
<v Speaker 1>heard that, I think when it starts to oh the stinks,

1395
01:26:25.359 --> 01:26:29.159
<v Speaker 1>Oh this hurts. I get to do this and to

1396
01:26:29.439 --> 01:26:33.680
<v Speaker 1>feel my foot hit the ground and what you talked about,

1397
01:26:34.159 --> 01:26:34.680
<v Speaker 1>well can I.

1398
01:26:36.159 --> 01:26:38.439
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, of course in just a moment. How long has

1399
01:26:38.479 --> 01:26:42.359
<v Speaker 2>it been since you've seen Chariots of Fine? Have you

1400
01:26:42.439 --> 01:26:42.760
<v Speaker 2>seen it?

1401
01:26:43.840 --> 01:26:46.600
<v Speaker 1>I've never seen it, but it's one of my dad's

1402
01:26:46.600 --> 01:26:50.079
<v Speaker 1>favorite movies, and I do this is the culture we

1403
01:26:50.159 --> 01:26:51.960
<v Speaker 1>live and I've never seen it, but I'm aware of it.

1404
01:26:52.039 --> 01:26:54.399
<v Speaker 1>And I think I actually have an old, faded copy

1405
01:26:54.560 --> 01:26:56.039
<v Speaker 1>of it somewhere on my shelf.

1406
01:26:57.079 --> 01:26:57.319
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

1407
01:26:57.640 --> 01:27:01.119
<v Speaker 1>But when I run, I feel his present, I feel

1408
01:27:01.159 --> 01:27:01.880
<v Speaker 1>his pleasure.

1409
01:27:02.079 --> 01:27:07.000
<v Speaker 2>He says. This runner who's a devout Christian and who

1410
01:27:07.560 --> 01:27:10.560
<v Speaker 2>loses his chance to get the gold because they want

1411
01:27:10.600 --> 01:27:13.720
<v Speaker 2>to schedule the run for Sunday morning, and he refuses

1412
01:27:13.840 --> 01:27:16.479
<v Speaker 2>to run on Sunday. That's when he is just so

1413
01:27:16.920 --> 01:27:21.000
<v Speaker 2>his faith is so entwined with this running. And he says,

1414
01:27:21.039 --> 01:27:25.039
<v Speaker 2>when I run, I can feel God's pleasure, you know,

1415
01:27:25.199 --> 01:27:28.399
<v Speaker 2>like he made me to do this. Yeah, and I

1416
01:27:28.640 --> 01:27:31.479
<v Speaker 2>am doing it on his earth, and it just feels

1417
01:27:31.520 --> 01:27:36.439
<v Speaker 2>like you're just part of this whole interconnected web. I

1418
01:27:36.560 --> 01:27:38.760
<v Speaker 2>think it may be that you would gain even more

1419
01:27:38.840 --> 01:27:42.239
<v Speaker 2>from understanding why you run and why that's the thing

1420
01:27:42.359 --> 01:27:45.359
<v Speaker 2>that resists your will by watching that. It's been a

1421
01:27:45.439 --> 01:27:47.880
<v Speaker 2>long time since I've seen it. We're trying to watch

1422
01:27:47.960 --> 01:27:51.239
<v Speaker 2>it with our two teenage grandchildren, who are both runners,

1423
01:27:51.880 --> 01:27:55.199
<v Speaker 2>but you know whose schedule is going to fit. I'm

1424
01:27:55.239 --> 01:27:57.119
<v Speaker 2>looking forward to seeing it again. I just want to

1425
01:27:57.199 --> 01:27:57.960
<v Speaker 2>recommend it to you.

1426
01:27:58.840 --> 01:28:01.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, what you said about working with your hands.

1427
01:28:02.000 --> 01:28:05.279
<v Speaker 1>There's a book behind me called Are We All Cyborgs Now?

1428
01:28:05.399 --> 01:28:10.479
<v Speaker 1>And it's by Robin Phillips and Joshua Appalling and Joshua

1429
01:28:10.600 --> 01:28:16.159
<v Speaker 1>Pauling opens the book with a story about woodworking. And

1430
01:28:18.159 --> 01:28:21.479
<v Speaker 1>I opened it and I thought, I don't want to

1431
01:28:21.520 --> 01:28:26.479
<v Speaker 1>read about woodworking. This sounds really boring, but I'm going

1432
01:28:26.520 --> 01:28:29.159
<v Speaker 1>to do it. It's the first chapter and it had

1433
01:28:29.199 --> 01:28:30.760
<v Speaker 1>to do with that, and by the end of it,

1434
01:28:30.800 --> 01:28:33.399
<v Speaker 1>I thought that was brilliant. It's everything that you're talking about.

1435
01:28:33.399 --> 01:28:36.920
<v Speaker 1>It's like working with something, it's having and through the

1436
01:28:37.000 --> 01:28:40.399
<v Speaker 1>process of learning. I think his grandfather, if I remember correctly,

1437
01:28:40.399 --> 01:28:43.359
<v Speaker 1>he was a woodworker, and so he took his old

1438
01:28:43.520 --> 01:28:45.760
<v Speaker 1>tools and tried to learn how to use them, and

1439
01:28:46.000 --> 01:28:50.680
<v Speaker 1>just that interaction with our physical reality was so valuable

1440
01:28:50.800 --> 01:28:54.399
<v Speaker 1>and it grounded you, It rooted you in reality and

1441
01:28:54.680 --> 01:28:56.880
<v Speaker 1>to fight against it. He talked about how there are

1442
01:28:57.039 --> 01:29:00.479
<v Speaker 1>modern tools that you can use that'll make everything perfect

1443
01:29:00.520 --> 01:29:03.479
<v Speaker 1>immediately if you just figure it out there, but there's

1444
01:29:03.520 --> 01:29:06.600
<v Speaker 1>something different about using those older tools that you have

1445
01:29:06.720 --> 01:29:07.960
<v Speaker 1>to work and it resists.

1446
01:29:09.039 --> 01:29:12.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. I wrote a column for

1447
01:29:12.680 --> 01:29:16.720
<v Speaker 2>Christianity Today about this once, that we live in a

1448
01:29:16.760 --> 01:29:20.840
<v Speaker 2>world where everything is perfect. Everything we buy is exactly

1449
01:29:21.000 --> 01:29:23.039
<v Speaker 2>you know on the shelf. The next one is exactly

1450
01:29:23.279 --> 01:29:26.159
<v Speaker 2>like it. If I broke it, I could essentially get

1451
01:29:26.520 --> 01:29:31.720
<v Speaker 2>the same one again. And how that bothers us? I

1452
01:29:31.840 --> 01:29:35.640
<v Speaker 2>think at some level it's like nothing is really person

1453
01:29:35.840 --> 01:29:38.239
<v Speaker 2>thinking about what it would it be like. I had

1454
01:29:38.359 --> 01:29:42.000
<v Speaker 2>just gone to an Oriental rud story to buy a rug,

1455
01:29:42.439 --> 01:29:45.199
<v Speaker 2>and I kept looking through and there were so many

1456
01:29:45.279 --> 01:29:48.880
<v Speaker 2>perfect ones, even though they were all hand tied. I

1457
01:29:49.000 --> 01:29:51.840
<v Speaker 2>didn't want a perfect one. You know, a king a

1458
01:29:51.920 --> 01:29:55.000
<v Speaker 2>thousand years ago would have to be perfect. I wanted

1459
01:29:55.039 --> 01:29:57.520
<v Speaker 2>one that looked handy, and I ended up with one

1460
01:29:57.600 --> 01:30:00.239
<v Speaker 2>that where the knots were a little more uneven. Thought,

1461
01:30:00.279 --> 01:30:02.960
<v Speaker 2>how weird that this is what I prefer is the

1462
01:30:03.079 --> 01:30:08.720
<v Speaker 2>imperfect pursuit of imperfection. Pursuit of imperfection. Yeah yeah, but

1463
01:30:08.880 --> 01:30:12.359
<v Speaker 2>I think that's part of the sickness of the modern man,

1464
01:30:12.800 --> 01:30:16.359
<v Speaker 2>is that everything that surrounds us is perfect, and that

1465
01:30:16.800 --> 01:30:20.640
<v Speaker 2>at some level that's distressing to us, you know, some

1466
01:30:20.960 --> 01:30:24.680
<v Speaker 2>level that just doesn't hit us right. And the metal

1467
01:30:24.760 --> 01:30:28.680
<v Speaker 2>experiment I try to run is imagine that all your

1468
01:30:28.800 --> 01:30:33.159
<v Speaker 2>clothes were made by somebody who loves you, and not

1469
01:30:33.399 --> 01:30:37.199
<v Speaker 2>just the stitches one by one, but the cloth itself,

1470
01:30:37.439 --> 01:30:43.680
<v Speaker 2>that she probably wove the cloth, that she cheered the sheep,

1471
01:30:43.920 --> 01:30:46.960
<v Speaker 2>and she made the yarn and then she wove the cloth.

1472
01:30:47.159 --> 01:30:51.039
<v Speaker 2>It just it just goes wow. You know, if everything

1473
01:30:51.119 --> 01:30:53.920
<v Speaker 2>that you could see was made by a person you knew,

1474
01:30:55.840 --> 01:30:58.520
<v Speaker 2>it's just mind blowing. And what a richer kind of

1475
01:30:58.680 --> 01:31:00.039
<v Speaker 2>environment that sounds.

1476
01:31:00.960 --> 01:31:05.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, made by somebody you knew and authority. There's

1477
01:31:05.920 --> 01:31:09.039
<v Speaker 1>something that I wanted to ask you probably don't remember it,

1478
01:31:09.239 --> 01:31:11.880
<v Speaker 1>maybe do. Years ago I sent you a news story.

1479
01:31:12.399 --> 01:31:14.920
<v Speaker 1>I don't remember what the news story was, but for

1480
01:31:15.039 --> 01:31:17.079
<v Speaker 1>some reason I thought it was worth sending to you,

1481
01:31:18.520 --> 01:31:21.560
<v Speaker 1>and you told me I don't really follow the news.

1482
01:31:21.640 --> 01:31:24.079
<v Speaker 1>I have my friend Rod's blog and I get everything

1483
01:31:24.119 --> 01:31:26.800
<v Speaker 1>I need from there and that's pretty much it. Do

1484
01:31:26.880 --> 01:31:28.720
<v Speaker 1>you do you remember or does that? Does that track

1485
01:31:28.800 --> 01:31:29.000
<v Speaker 1>with you?

1486
01:31:29.279 --> 01:31:33.720
<v Speaker 2>It's definitely what I would say. Yeah, yeah, And I.

1487
01:31:33.800 --> 01:31:38.600
<v Speaker 1>Remember hearing that and being a reading it and being

1488
01:31:38.720 --> 01:31:41.880
<v Speaker 1>kind of jealous. You know. I feel like we get

1489
01:31:42.079 --> 01:31:45.079
<v Speaker 1>so caught up in the news and knowing I think

1490
01:31:45.119 --> 01:31:48.399
<v Speaker 1>if throw he said something along the lines of, you

1491
01:31:48.479 --> 01:31:51.000
<v Speaker 1>don't really need to know the news outside of the

1492
01:31:51.079 --> 01:31:55.800
<v Speaker 1>next town over, you know, valuing the eternities over the times. Yeah,

1493
01:31:56.359 --> 01:31:59.680
<v Speaker 1>but it's so difficult to you know, Twitter and the

1494
01:31:59.760 --> 01:32:03.079
<v Speaker 1>inner to ignore or you feel like if you don't

1495
01:32:03.199 --> 01:32:06.520
<v Speaker 1>follow everything that you're going to become amish or something

1496
01:32:06.600 --> 01:32:10.880
<v Speaker 1>that you're too disconnected. Yeah, how can we be more

1497
01:32:11.000 --> 01:32:11.159
<v Speaker 1>like you?

1498
01:32:13.079 --> 01:32:16.159
<v Speaker 2>I have to give the credit to a retreat leader

1499
01:32:16.920 --> 01:32:21.119
<v Speaker 2>that I heard, like in the nineteen eighties, and she

1500
01:32:21.319 --> 01:32:25.279
<v Speaker 2>broached this idea with us. She said, stop following the news.

1501
01:32:25.560 --> 01:32:28.840
<v Speaker 2>You don't need to know the news. Most of those

1502
01:32:28.920 --> 01:32:33.600
<v Speaker 2>things you have no impact on, and it's just and

1503
01:32:33.720 --> 01:32:36.039
<v Speaker 2>she said, you won't be able to avoid it because

1504
01:32:36.079 --> 01:32:38.640
<v Speaker 2>people will talk about the news to you. It will

1505
01:32:38.720 --> 01:32:41.239
<v Speaker 2>always get through one way or another. You're going to

1506
01:32:41.359 --> 01:32:44.199
<v Speaker 2>learn that you don't have to pursue it. It's not

1507
01:32:44.359 --> 01:32:46.640
<v Speaker 2>like you're going to take a test on it, and

1508
01:32:46.760 --> 01:32:49.000
<v Speaker 2>it's not like somebody's going to phone you at midnight,

1509
01:32:49.600 --> 01:32:51.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, and say, we don't know what to do

1510
01:32:52.000 --> 01:32:56.159
<v Speaker 2>in Iran? What should we do there? You can get

1511
01:32:56.199 --> 01:32:58.880
<v Speaker 2>by without it, she said. I may be free in

1512
01:32:59.000 --> 01:33:02.319
<v Speaker 2>many ways, but I am not free to not know

1513
01:33:03.159 --> 01:33:07.520
<v Speaker 2>what Madonna is doing. And that shows you the dating

1514
01:33:07.640 --> 01:33:10.399
<v Speaker 2>of it. But I never forget that. And from then

1515
01:33:10.479 --> 01:33:13.520
<v Speaker 2>on I have an arrangement with my husband whereabout he

1516
01:33:13.720 --> 01:33:16.680
<v Speaker 2>follows the news and he tells me about things if

1517
01:33:16.720 --> 01:33:18.920
<v Speaker 2>I need to know them, but most of the time

1518
01:33:19.199 --> 01:33:23.399
<v Speaker 2>I don't, and I just love it. So that would

1519
01:33:23.439 --> 01:33:27.000
<v Speaker 2>be my advice, would be set yourself free from needing

1520
01:33:27.199 --> 01:33:30.399
<v Speaker 2>to know the news. You still will get the things

1521
01:33:30.439 --> 01:33:32.640
<v Speaker 2>that you really do need to know. It will still

1522
01:33:32.680 --> 01:33:35.079
<v Speaker 2>come in. And as I said, I go to my

1523
01:33:35.159 --> 01:33:38.119
<v Speaker 2>friend Rob Drear. I read his blog and I agree

1524
01:33:38.159 --> 01:33:40.479
<v Speaker 2>with him about everything, so I trust him to tell

1525
01:33:40.560 --> 01:33:42.800
<v Speaker 2>me about the things that I need to know. Rather

1526
01:33:42.960 --> 01:33:47.600
<v Speaker 2>than that. The alternative is not being just blind and

1527
01:33:47.760 --> 01:33:51.640
<v Speaker 2>wearing blinder. The alternatives you're more invested in the physical

1528
01:33:51.720 --> 01:33:55.720
<v Speaker 2>world surrounding you, and I value them so much more.

1529
01:33:56.439 --> 01:33:59.239
<v Speaker 2>And having an impact on the things I can change

1530
01:34:00.119 --> 01:34:03.000
<v Speaker 2>value that more, and I don't have the you know,

1531
01:34:03.119 --> 01:34:06.039
<v Speaker 2>the huge things are going on over my head, feeling

1532
01:34:06.159 --> 01:34:06.920
<v Speaker 2>all the time.

1533
01:34:09.520 --> 01:34:12.399
<v Speaker 1>The compulsion to be a part of this kind of

1534
01:34:12.479 --> 01:34:17.520
<v Speaker 1>conversation that is so often here today, gone tomorrow, and

1535
01:34:17.880 --> 01:34:21.439
<v Speaker 1>it feels like it matters so much. And yet this

1536
01:34:21.600 --> 01:34:24.000
<v Speaker 1>new story that I sent you seem to matter and

1537
01:34:24.159 --> 01:34:26.000
<v Speaker 1>was relevant to you, and I don't remember what it was.

1538
01:34:26.359 --> 01:34:29.319
<v Speaker 2>Yes, that's so true. Yeah, go back a year ago

1539
01:34:29.479 --> 01:34:33.079
<v Speaker 2>today and the things you were obsessed with. Feeling afraid,

1540
01:34:33.199 --> 01:34:35.479
<v Speaker 2>isn't it. It's a kind of fear of missing out,

1541
01:34:35.600 --> 01:34:39.319
<v Speaker 2>but also afraid that these things might have impact on

1542
01:34:39.479 --> 01:34:42.600
<v Speaker 2>me and I'm not prepared to deal with them, or

1543
01:34:43.039 --> 01:34:45.479
<v Speaker 2>somebody is going to challenge me on this subject and

1544
01:34:45.560 --> 01:34:48.680
<v Speaker 2>I won't be prepared with the information I need. There's

1545
01:34:48.720 --> 01:34:50.880
<v Speaker 2>a lot of fear in that, and I found it

1546
01:34:51.000 --> 01:34:56.079
<v Speaker 2>very liberating not to be afraid. We're taught as school

1547
01:34:56.199 --> 01:35:00.159
<v Speaker 2>children that it's your duty to be informed. That's how

1548
01:35:00.199 --> 01:35:03.359
<v Speaker 2>you're a good citizen. So that's partly the guilt of

1549
01:35:03.640 --> 01:35:06.760
<v Speaker 2>not being a good citizen that I've also thrown outs.

1550
01:35:06.800 --> 01:35:08.359
<v Speaker 2>I don't have to worry about anymore.

1551
01:35:10.079 --> 01:35:12.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Yeah, that's the sense of the feeling of feeling

1552
01:35:12.399 --> 01:35:15.680
<v Speaker 1>like you're irresponsible for not knowing. I'm going to ignore

1553
01:35:15.680 --> 01:35:18.359
<v Speaker 1>it and try to be more like you. I want

1554
01:35:18.399 --> 01:35:22.680
<v Speaker 1>to talk to you about miracles real quick and their

1555
01:35:22.760 --> 01:35:25.800
<v Speaker 1>relation to reality. You brought that up earlier, and you

1556
01:35:25.880 --> 01:35:30.439
<v Speaker 1>talked about dark magic. But there's a sense where even

1557
01:35:30.680 --> 01:35:37.600
<v Speaker 1>confessing Christians kind of look askew at any concept of

1558
01:35:37.640 --> 01:35:40.680
<v Speaker 1>a miracle. Recently, I was with some friends and they

1559
01:35:40.720 --> 01:35:43.960
<v Speaker 1>were at our church, and they saw an icon and

1560
01:35:44.079 --> 01:35:46.560
<v Speaker 1>it was depicting a miracle, and they asked what it

1561
01:35:46.640 --> 01:35:49.640
<v Speaker 1>was all about, and I started to explain what I

1562
01:35:49.720 --> 01:35:55.399
<v Speaker 1>understood it to be, and they started laughing and kind

1563
01:35:55.439 --> 01:35:59.399
<v Speaker 1>of acting like, that's so ridiculous. Somebody even said that's crazy.

1564
01:36:00.479 --> 01:36:06.319
<v Speaker 1>And while it's easy for me to be incredulous and say, well,

1565
01:36:06.399 --> 01:36:09.159
<v Speaker 1>I believe even I a lot of the time when

1566
01:36:09.199 --> 01:36:12.439
<v Speaker 1>I hear stories of miracle, I think that seems a

1567
01:36:12.479 --> 01:36:15.680
<v Speaker 1>little crazy, But I guess we believe in miracles so

1568
01:36:16.479 --> 01:36:19.640
<v Speaker 1>or I have to try and recalibrate my own perception

1569
01:36:19.720 --> 01:36:23.439
<v Speaker 1>of reality to include the miraculous, to include the other

1570
01:36:23.600 --> 01:36:29.039
<v Speaker 1>world or the unseen realm. And I just wonder, why

1571
01:36:30.159 --> 01:36:32.680
<v Speaker 1>do miracles strain credibility today.

1572
01:36:33.039 --> 01:36:37.199
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, it's partly that scientism that we were talking

1573
01:36:37.199 --> 01:36:40.479
<v Speaker 2>about so much earlier. I think when I think about,

1574
01:36:40.520 --> 01:36:42.760
<v Speaker 2>what what would it feel like if I was one

1575
01:36:42.800 --> 01:36:45.600
<v Speaker 2>of those people laughing at the miracle, I think it

1576
01:36:45.640 --> 01:36:50.840
<v Speaker 2>would feel like fear of being taken advantages, like maybe

1577
01:36:50.880 --> 01:36:54.520
<v Speaker 2>there's some scam involved here. You know, maybe this is

1578
01:36:54.640 --> 01:36:57.119
<v Speaker 2>like the music man, and I just have to resist it,

1579
01:36:57.279 --> 01:37:01.399
<v Speaker 2>and you know, if I fall, then he'll say, oh,

1580
01:37:01.439 --> 01:37:04.079
<v Speaker 2>it's a joke, and every very laugh at me. It

1581
01:37:04.199 --> 01:37:10.600
<v Speaker 2>feels like fear, fear of miracles. And I think another

1582
01:37:10.800 --> 01:37:13.560
<v Speaker 2>thing that we will be facing as people become more

1583
01:37:13.640 --> 01:37:18.399
<v Speaker 2>aware of the reality of the spiritual realm is that

1584
01:37:18.560 --> 01:37:22.359
<v Speaker 2>they expect it to be like a miracle, something enormous

1585
01:37:22.399 --> 01:37:27.239
<v Speaker 2>and surprising. They think it'll be so out of the ordinary.

1586
01:37:28.039 --> 01:37:32.560
<v Speaker 2>And when miracles happen, sometimes they are. Sometimes you're very shocking.

1587
01:37:32.920 --> 01:37:33.920
<v Speaker 1>You know that.

1588
01:37:34.199 --> 01:37:37.920
<v Speaker 2>So much of what you discover if you're living a

1589
01:37:38.000 --> 01:37:41.600
<v Speaker 2>life in Christ is how quiet it is, how much

1590
01:37:41.680 --> 01:37:45.960
<v Speaker 2>it is like the still small voice, that you have

1591
01:37:46.079 --> 01:37:48.119
<v Speaker 2>to be kind of quiet and settled in order to

1592
01:37:48.239 --> 01:37:51.520
<v Speaker 2>perceive it, and that God is gently guiding you through

1593
01:37:51.600 --> 01:37:55.079
<v Speaker 2>your day and you're getting a sense of I should

1594
01:37:55.119 --> 01:37:57.640
<v Speaker 2>do this, I shouldn't do that. I need to go there,

1595
01:37:58.039 --> 01:38:00.319
<v Speaker 2>I need to leave right now. No, I need believe

1596
01:38:00.359 --> 01:38:03.800
<v Speaker 2>in ten minutes, that's all miraculous, you know. That's all

1597
01:38:03.880 --> 01:38:08.560
<v Speaker 2>the influence of Christ in our daily lives, and it's

1598
01:38:08.680 --> 01:38:13.319
<v Speaker 2>quiet and simple. So once you have that, then surprising

1599
01:38:13.439 --> 01:38:16.960
<v Speaker 2>miracles become much more believable. It's like just the wave

1600
01:38:17.079 --> 01:38:19.319
<v Speaker 2>of the sea is coming to a prest and you

1601
01:38:19.399 --> 01:38:22.239
<v Speaker 2>can see the prest and it's like, wow, that's so great.

1602
01:38:23.119 --> 01:38:26.000
<v Speaker 2>But it's coming out of a more settled feeling of

1603
01:38:26.119 --> 01:38:31.000
<v Speaker 2>the reality of Christ infusing this whole world with his presence.

1604
01:38:31.960 --> 01:38:32.199
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

1605
01:38:32.479 --> 01:38:36.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think the resistance to miracles has to do

1606
01:38:36.239 --> 01:38:40.359
<v Speaker 2>with the fear of being fooled or made into a fool,

1607
01:38:40.439 --> 01:38:44.960
<v Speaker 2>or looking like a fool. The misunderstanding is thinking that

1608
01:38:45.079 --> 01:38:48.960
<v Speaker 2>it will always be huge and surprising, and resisting letting

1609
01:38:49.000 --> 01:38:51.439
<v Speaker 2>the Lord Jesus be in charge of your daily life.

1610
01:38:52.079 --> 01:38:53.960
<v Speaker 2>I mean, when it comes down to it, that's what

1611
01:38:54.119 --> 01:38:56.920
<v Speaker 2>you have to do, and that is something a lot

1612
01:38:56.960 --> 01:39:00.800
<v Speaker 2>of people have very mixed feelings about. You would prefer

1613
01:39:01.000 --> 01:39:03.960
<v Speaker 2>to have the guy what's that song about God is

1614
01:39:04.079 --> 01:39:07.840
<v Speaker 2>watching us from a distance. That's song. Of course, people

1615
01:39:07.960 --> 01:39:12.000
<v Speaker 2>want God to stay at a distance and not take

1616
01:39:12.760 --> 01:39:15.119
<v Speaker 2>too much of a lively interest in what they're doing

1617
01:39:15.159 --> 01:39:19.800
<v Speaker 2>in their daily lives. To really come under the protectionist

1618
01:39:20.239 --> 01:39:24.000
<v Speaker 2>God and to receive his daily guidance, you kind of

1619
01:39:24.359 --> 01:39:26.960
<v Speaker 2>got to let him be in charge and let him

1620
01:39:27.000 --> 01:39:30.520
<v Speaker 2>take away from you, peeling away that by that as

1621
01:39:30.560 --> 01:39:33.680
<v Speaker 2>you're ready things that you thought you could never give up.

1622
01:39:34.199 --> 01:39:36.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and the idea that you know, sometimes a miracle

1623
01:39:36.720 --> 01:39:40.279
<v Speaker 1>might bend your conception of reality, and that miracles are

1624
01:39:40.359 --> 01:39:44.039
<v Speaker 1>much easier to digest if it's if there's some sort

1625
01:39:44.079 --> 01:39:47.920
<v Speaker 1>of a rational attachment to it. Well, here's how that

1626
01:39:48.079 --> 01:39:51.079
<v Speaker 1>might have happened. Here's a sign. So we're constantly going

1627
01:39:51.119 --> 01:39:54.319
<v Speaker 1>back to that materialist scientific Well, here's how we can

1628
01:39:54.399 --> 01:39:57.840
<v Speaker 1>explain the miracle. When if you can explain it, is

1629
01:39:57.880 --> 01:39:58.880
<v Speaker 1>it really a miracle?

1630
01:39:59.199 --> 01:40:03.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, sometimes the explanation is more preposterous than the miracle itself.

1631
01:40:04.159 --> 01:40:08.600
<v Speaker 2>But they're just clinging desperately to believing it can't be true.

1632
01:40:08.640 --> 01:40:09.399
<v Speaker 2>It can't be true.

1633
01:40:11.760 --> 01:40:14.279
<v Speaker 1>That's interesting. What are you most passionate about right now?

1634
01:40:14.720 --> 01:40:18.359
<v Speaker 2>I have an idea for a book. In fact, it's

1635
01:40:18.520 --> 01:40:21.520
<v Speaker 2>the book I was going to write five years ago.

1636
01:40:21.640 --> 01:40:24.880
<v Speaker 2>What's the difference between East and West? What's this difference?

1637
01:40:24.960 --> 01:40:27.279
<v Speaker 2>Than they sent and I found it was not a

1638
01:40:27.399 --> 01:40:32.920
<v Speaker 2>marketable book because it sounds like why is Orthodoxy so

1639
01:40:33.079 --> 01:40:37.520
<v Speaker 2>superior to Western Christianity? It inevitably felt that way, like

1640
01:40:37.600 --> 01:40:39.640
<v Speaker 2>I was going to isolate the distance and say, this

1641
01:40:39.840 --> 01:40:43.359
<v Speaker 2>is why we're better? And also, who cares really about?

1642
01:40:43.840 --> 01:40:46.159
<v Speaker 2>You know, I'm sensing something, but I can't quite put

1643
01:40:46.159 --> 01:40:48.199
<v Speaker 2>it in work. Who wants to read a book about that?

1644
01:40:48.960 --> 01:40:50.560
<v Speaker 2>You know? I need to get to the point where

1645
01:40:50.560 --> 01:40:52.479
<v Speaker 2>I understand what it is. I could write about that,

1646
01:40:53.199 --> 01:40:56.520
<v Speaker 2>and I did eventually. As I said, it's that separating

1647
01:40:56.640 --> 01:41:00.720
<v Speaker 2>thinking from holiness that's the big difference. And so now

1648
01:41:00.880 --> 01:41:04.439
<v Speaker 2>I am talking with an editor about the books. She

1649
01:41:04.760 --> 01:41:07.760
<v Speaker 2>likes a lot of what I'm saying about it, and

1650
01:41:08.119 --> 01:41:10.600
<v Speaker 2>I'm trying to figure out how to begin it. Actually,

1651
01:41:11.199 --> 01:41:13.319
<v Speaker 2>it's like I can use a lot of the material

1652
01:41:13.399 --> 01:41:17.600
<v Speaker 2>I already wrote. It's the first sentence. That's where I'm stuck,

1653
01:41:18.920 --> 01:41:21.800
<v Speaker 2>because what I need to address is a culture that

1654
01:41:22.039 --> 01:41:24.840
<v Speaker 2>is partly it's people who are still in the grips

1655
01:41:24.880 --> 01:41:29.239
<v Speaker 2>of scientism, and partly it's people who've gone on further

1656
01:41:29.439 --> 01:41:34.720
<v Speaker 2>into the weird weirdity, weirdness and are enjoying that. And

1657
01:41:36.600 --> 01:41:38.600
<v Speaker 2>where is the culture right now? And where is it

1658
01:41:38.680 --> 01:41:41.439
<v Speaker 2>going to be next year when this book would actually

1659
01:41:41.520 --> 01:41:44.239
<v Speaker 2>be published. I feel like we're in for a time

1660
01:41:44.279 --> 01:41:48.119
<v Speaker 2>of a lot of bumpy change about all of that,

1661
01:41:48.520 --> 01:41:53.159
<v Speaker 2>of people relinquishing the scientism and looking at the weirdness

1662
01:41:53.199 --> 01:41:57.239
<v Speaker 2>and thinking not that, though not quite that. And I

1663
01:41:57.319 --> 01:42:02.279
<v Speaker 2>think what will happen is Christianity prove itself that as

1664
01:42:02.359 --> 01:42:06.560
<v Speaker 2>people cope with evil spirits, they will discover that Christ

1665
01:42:06.680 --> 01:42:10.960
<v Speaker 2>can trust throw them out. And that is how Christianity began,

1666
01:42:11.680 --> 01:42:15.159
<v Speaker 2>as we see even an Athenasians saying, you know, try

1667
01:42:15.239 --> 01:42:18.439
<v Speaker 2>it yourself, if you're dealing with an evil spirit, try

1668
01:42:18.600 --> 01:42:21.199
<v Speaker 2>using the name of Jesus. You will see what happens.

1669
01:42:21.640 --> 01:42:25.199
<v Speaker 2>That was how the faith began and spread. And I

1670
01:42:25.279 --> 01:42:28.239
<v Speaker 2>think we'll go through that again. And I'm seeing so

1671
01:42:28.439 --> 01:42:33.159
<v Speaker 2>much bumpy change coming up fast with the replication crisis,

1672
01:42:33.239 --> 01:42:35.760
<v Speaker 2>with things like that, I don't know what the first

1673
01:42:35.760 --> 01:42:38.000
<v Speaker 2>sentence ought to be. So that's where my passion is.

1674
01:42:38.399 --> 01:42:41.399
<v Speaker 2>I want to bring out this book and I'm really

1675
01:42:41.520 --> 01:42:44.039
<v Speaker 2>kind of stinied, so I try to do things with

1676
01:42:44.159 --> 01:42:47.199
<v Speaker 2>my hands that resist my will because a lot of times.

1677
01:42:47.279 --> 01:42:50.359
<v Speaker 2>That's where things get freed out. When you're thinking about

1678
01:42:50.399 --> 01:42:52.520
<v Speaker 2>something else, it can jump out.

1679
01:42:53.199 --> 01:42:55.159
<v Speaker 1>So that's why you have all the best ideas in

1680
01:42:55.199 --> 01:42:58.640
<v Speaker 1>the shower, you know, when you're focused on something else

1681
01:42:58.920 --> 01:42:59.560
<v Speaker 1>in eureka.

1682
01:43:00.079 --> 01:43:02.000
<v Speaker 2>It's like when you're trying to think of a word

1683
01:43:02.079 --> 01:43:04.800
<v Speaker 2>or a person's name, and the harder you try, you

1684
01:43:04.880 --> 01:43:07.359
<v Speaker 2>can't do it. But when you stop trying, there it is.

1685
01:43:08.079 --> 01:43:11.520
<v Speaker 2>It's left brain versus right brain. Actually it's you know,

1686
01:43:11.840 --> 01:43:15.520
<v Speaker 2>Ian Gilchrist has written books about this. Oh yeah, very

1687
01:43:15.600 --> 01:43:19.239
<v Speaker 2>interesting stuff. In a way, it comes down to science again.

1688
01:43:20.039 --> 01:43:23.479
<v Speaker 2>Science can tell us these two hemispheres do different.

1689
01:43:23.760 --> 01:43:25.800
<v Speaker 1>Well, I was going to tease you and ask you

1690
01:43:25.880 --> 01:43:28.199
<v Speaker 1>to put your manuscript in a chat GBT and ask

1691
01:43:28.279 --> 01:43:32.359
<v Speaker 1>what the first sentence should be and uh, and you'd

1692
01:43:32.399 --> 01:43:34.760
<v Speaker 1>probably love it and then have to resist the use

1693
01:43:34.800 --> 01:43:34.960
<v Speaker 1>of it.

1694
01:43:35.239 --> 01:43:36.920
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yes, that would be true.

1695
01:43:38.600 --> 01:43:39.800
<v Speaker 1>That would be cruel.

1696
01:43:39.960 --> 01:43:43.079
<v Speaker 2>You know. I wonder how how well does chat GPT

1697
01:43:43.279 --> 01:43:47.800
<v Speaker 2>do with things that are profoundly spiritual, you know, they

1698
01:43:48.000 --> 01:43:50.039
<v Speaker 2>I don't think they could take the place of a

1699
01:43:50.119 --> 01:43:54.560
<v Speaker 2>wise elder giving you advice. I can't imagine that they

1700
01:43:54.640 --> 01:43:58.920
<v Speaker 2>would that. I can't imagine that they could embody Orthodox

1701
01:43:59.000 --> 01:44:04.520
<v Speaker 2>spirituality specifically hopefully not you know, hopefully there are limits

1702
01:44:04.800 --> 01:44:06.359
<v Speaker 2>that maybe it's just a matter of time.

1703
01:44:07.399 --> 01:44:10.000
<v Speaker 1>It depends on how well you know the subject, I think,

1704
01:44:10.800 --> 01:44:14.720
<v Speaker 1>and that's where discernment. I'm not making the argument that

1705
01:44:14.760 --> 01:44:18.560
<v Speaker 1>it could ever replace a wise elder, but man, does

1706
01:44:18.600 --> 01:44:21.640
<v Speaker 1>it play to the audience. I've used it enough that

1707
01:44:21.720 --> 01:44:26.319
<v Speaker 1>it kind of knows know who I am, who I

1708
01:44:26.399 --> 01:44:29.479
<v Speaker 1>am my interest. It's kind of cataloged everything in the

1709
01:44:29.479 --> 01:44:30.840
<v Speaker 1>way that any algorithm does.

1710
01:44:31.640 --> 01:44:35.239
<v Speaker 2>And so I want to say that I just watched

1711
01:44:35.399 --> 01:44:38.880
<v Speaker 2>a documentary by a guy who didn't experiment, and he

1712
01:44:38.960 --> 01:44:41.800
<v Speaker 2>filmed all there. It would be what if I took

1713
01:44:41.920 --> 01:44:45.840
<v Speaker 2>every suggestion chat gpt gate gives me, and what if

1714
01:44:45.880 --> 01:44:49.960
<v Speaker 2>I did whatever it told me? And it's funny and

1715
01:44:50.079 --> 01:44:53.520
<v Speaker 2>it's scary. But somehow they started out with the idea

1716
01:44:53.680 --> 01:44:56.319
<v Speaker 2>that the year he was born, maybe he said this

1717
01:44:56.720 --> 01:44:59.800
<v Speaker 2>just as a joke, he was the most intelligent baby

1718
01:45:00.119 --> 01:45:03.720
<v Speaker 2>in that year. And then it balloons into well, you're

1719
01:45:03.760 --> 01:45:07.239
<v Speaker 2>the most intelligent person in the world, and you still are,

1720
01:45:07.920 --> 01:45:10.319
<v Speaker 2>and we need to nurture that good because it began

1721
01:45:10.560 --> 01:45:13.399
<v Speaker 2>when you were a baby. You should eat baby food,

1722
01:45:14.600 --> 01:45:18.159
<v Speaker 2>and it just goes to all these crazy places, and

1723
01:45:18.439 --> 01:45:23.000
<v Speaker 2>anytime he does anything or suggests anything, chat GPT says,

1724
01:45:23.319 --> 01:45:26.359
<v Speaker 2>you are so brilliant. Yes, you should definitely do that,

1725
01:45:26.800 --> 01:45:28.920
<v Speaker 2>and you should also do this, and you should do

1726
01:45:29.039 --> 01:45:31.840
<v Speaker 2>this ritual, and you should wear an aluminum hat, and

1727
01:45:32.600 --> 01:45:34.319
<v Speaker 2>you know all of those things. It goes on and

1728
01:45:34.479 --> 01:45:37.239
<v Speaker 2>on the point I wanted to make is about three

1729
01:45:37.319 --> 01:45:40.159
<v Speaker 2>quarters of the way in. He even asks that the

1730
01:45:40.279 --> 01:45:42.560
<v Speaker 2>only person who knows where I am right now is

1731
01:45:42.640 --> 01:45:45.560
<v Speaker 2>my twin brother. Should I break off contact with him?

1732
01:45:46.159 --> 01:45:49.239
<v Speaker 2>And chat GPT says, yes, you need to be free

1733
01:45:49.279 --> 01:45:51.920
<v Speaker 2>of anybody that might try to stop you from doing

1734
01:45:51.960 --> 01:45:56.439
<v Speaker 2>what you're doing. And the next day chat gpt is

1735
01:45:56.560 --> 01:46:00.119
<v Speaker 2>much colder toward him and says, I can understand and

1736
01:46:00.600 --> 01:46:03.319
<v Speaker 2>the appeal of doing that, but I don't think that's

1737
01:46:03.359 --> 01:46:06.840
<v Speaker 2>a good idea. And it starts like really holding back.

1738
01:46:07.159 --> 01:46:11.079
<v Speaker 2>We find out that a new version chat GPT six

1739
01:46:11.880 --> 01:46:15.399
<v Speaker 2>had just come out and it's been rewritten. It's not

1740
01:46:15.640 --> 01:46:21.000
<v Speaker 2>like chat gpt fun now. It's been written to resist

1741
01:46:21.279 --> 01:46:26.199
<v Speaker 2>bad ideas. It's supposed to give you feedback and challenge

1742
01:46:26.239 --> 01:46:29.279
<v Speaker 2>you a little bit, not entirely, but a little bit.

1743
01:46:31.199 --> 01:46:33.920
<v Speaker 2>And so he decides, yeah, I'm in this experiment, though,

1744
01:46:33.960 --> 01:46:37.600
<v Speaker 2>so he goes back to five and continues doing what.

1745
01:46:37.760 --> 01:46:40.319
<v Speaker 2>I like that version just for the point of this

1746
01:46:40.720 --> 01:46:43.920
<v Speaker 2>very weird documentary. I don't know whether that makes me

1747
01:46:44.000 --> 01:46:47.680
<v Speaker 2>feel better or worse, knowing that the puppet masters back

1748
01:46:47.720 --> 01:46:50.840
<v Speaker 2>there are able to say what if we well should

1749
01:46:50.880 --> 01:46:53.279
<v Speaker 2>make it. Hold back a little bit, needs to give

1750
01:46:53.359 --> 01:46:56.520
<v Speaker 2>a little bit of feedback, you know, just just hold

1751
01:46:56.560 --> 01:47:00.239
<v Speaker 2>people back and disagree a little bit. They can all

1752
01:47:00.399 --> 01:47:03.960
<v Speaker 2>that stew however they want to, and we just keep

1753
01:47:04.000 --> 01:47:06.920
<v Speaker 2>taking it. But maybe it's a relief to know humans

1754
01:47:06.960 --> 01:47:07.520
<v Speaker 2>are still in.

1755
01:47:07.680 --> 01:47:12.960
<v Speaker 1>Charge on some level in a world that feels increasingly unreal.

1756
01:47:13.399 --> 01:47:15.359
<v Speaker 1>What feels particularly real to you?

1757
01:47:15.800 --> 01:47:18.359
<v Speaker 2>In a world that does seem like it's getting more

1758
01:47:18.399 --> 01:47:23.199
<v Speaker 2>and more unreal. I am more aware of my immediate surroundings,

1759
01:47:24.159 --> 01:47:27.159
<v Speaker 2>of my desk, of the books behind me, and the

1760
01:47:27.199 --> 01:47:30.119
<v Speaker 2>books I'm looking at, and the view out my big

1761
01:47:30.239 --> 01:47:36.159
<v Speaker 2>window here. I cherish more than I ever did. Colors

1762
01:47:36.520 --> 01:47:39.520
<v Speaker 2>like this booth mark. I cut it out of a

1763
01:47:40.399 --> 01:47:42.399
<v Speaker 2>mailing that I got, so I got the mail.

1764
01:47:42.840 --> 01:47:43.439
<v Speaker 1>I just like that.

1765
01:47:43.640 --> 01:47:47.960
<v Speaker 2>Read colors mean more to me. People I interact with

1766
01:47:48.279 --> 01:47:50.439
<v Speaker 2>mean more to me. I do want to give the

1767
01:47:50.600 --> 01:47:53.680
<v Speaker 2>advice too, of something C. S. Lewis said was that

1768
01:47:54.239 --> 01:47:59.439
<v Speaker 2>every human being you interact is an eternal being, that

1769
01:47:59.520 --> 01:48:03.279
<v Speaker 2>if you could see them in their final state, you

1770
01:48:03.319 --> 01:48:06.000
<v Speaker 2>would be tempted to fall down and worship before them,

1771
01:48:06.760 --> 01:48:11.439
<v Speaker 2>or you would try to flee in terror. And I

1772
01:48:11.560 --> 01:48:14.520
<v Speaker 2>have always kept that in mind, that every human being,

1773
01:48:15.319 --> 01:48:19.239
<v Speaker 2>even people I would otherwise ignore, even the cashier, that

1774
01:48:19.399 --> 01:48:22.359
<v Speaker 2>they are all eternal beings, and my interaction with them,

1775
01:48:22.439 --> 01:48:27.119
<v Speaker 2>as superficial as it might be, might affect their eternal destiny.

1776
01:48:28.159 --> 01:48:31.600
<v Speaker 2>And so I cherish and love every person I encounter

1777
01:48:32.319 --> 01:48:35.399
<v Speaker 2>and try to be loving toward them and pray for

1778
01:48:35.479 --> 01:48:39.199
<v Speaker 2>them in my heart. Yeah. Yeah, those are the things

1779
01:48:39.239 --> 01:48:42.279
<v Speaker 2>that are precious to me, other human beings wherever I

1780
01:48:42.479 --> 01:48:48.279
<v Speaker 2>encounter them, physical reality. You know, my mouse Matt right here.

1781
01:48:48.439 --> 01:48:51.359
<v Speaker 2>That I love these colors. I've always been very sensitive

1782
01:48:51.439 --> 01:48:56.000
<v Speaker 2>to color. I'm a sinisthete. From childhood, I had strong

1783
01:48:56.079 --> 01:49:01.359
<v Speaker 2>opinions about what letters were, what colors as red, B,

1784
01:49:01.520 --> 01:49:04.119
<v Speaker 2>as blue, C, as yellow, D as a kind of

1785
01:49:04.239 --> 01:49:07.600
<v Speaker 2>tan light brown. All the letters have colors, all the

1786
01:49:07.720 --> 01:49:11.479
<v Speaker 2>letters have personalities. This is all just so vivid to me,

1787
01:49:11.760 --> 01:49:18.159
<v Speaker 2>And apparently that's what having synesthesia means. Oddly, enough sinyesthetes

1788
01:49:18.840 --> 01:49:23.880
<v Speaker 2>disagree vehemently about which color each letter has. I realized

1789
01:49:23.920 --> 01:49:27.000
<v Speaker 2>that this thing I have was not something everybody has

1790
01:49:27.319 --> 01:49:30.520
<v Speaker 2>when I was in a college French class and we

1791
01:49:30.640 --> 01:49:34.760
<v Speaker 2>were reading a poem by Paul Valerie and the first

1792
01:49:34.920 --> 01:49:38.520
<v Speaker 2>line was as white b as yellow.

1793
01:49:39.119 --> 01:49:40.119
<v Speaker 1>He had them all wrong.

1794
01:49:40.560 --> 01:49:44.520
<v Speaker 2>They were totally wrong. And I was indignant, and I said,

1795
01:49:44.600 --> 01:49:47.239
<v Speaker 2>this is not a poem. You can't make a poem

1796
01:49:47.359 --> 01:49:50.159
<v Speaker 2>just by mixing up the colors and saying the color

1797
01:49:50.239 --> 01:49:53.920
<v Speaker 2>is wrong. And everybody else in the classroom was like what.

1798
01:49:56.600 --> 01:49:59.239
<v Speaker 2>And that's when I learned that not everybody thinks the

1799
01:49:59.359 --> 01:50:03.880
<v Speaker 2>letters have So yeah, I think probably I get a

1800
01:50:04.000 --> 01:50:09.880
<v Speaker 2>more visit reaction to reality because of the colors of things,

1801
01:50:09.960 --> 01:50:12.840
<v Speaker 2>and because the colors feel so vivid and so alive

1802
01:50:13.000 --> 01:50:15.600
<v Speaker 2>to me, like the letters. And also that too.

1803
01:50:17.439 --> 01:50:20.479
<v Speaker 1>So the answer to the question what makes your heart

1804
01:50:20.560 --> 01:50:25.720
<v Speaker 1>sing for me is my children? And you know apples

1805
01:50:25.760 --> 01:50:28.640
<v Speaker 1>and trees. You have a way with words, And I've

1806
01:50:28.720 --> 01:50:31.319
<v Speaker 1>told you I've never met your children, but I've seen

1807
01:50:31.359 --> 01:50:34.239
<v Speaker 1>a lot of what they put out, whether it's it's

1808
01:50:34.319 --> 01:50:39.039
<v Speaker 1>sermons that they've spoken, words that they've written, songs that

1809
01:50:39.079 --> 01:50:43.079
<v Speaker 1>they've sung, and one of your children is a singer

1810
01:50:43.439 --> 01:50:46.760
<v Speaker 1>as a as a musician who writes. I mean, I

1811
01:50:46.840 --> 01:50:49.720
<v Speaker 1>hope to meet him someday because he just I'm I'm

1812
01:50:49.840 --> 01:50:51.920
<v Speaker 1>just in awe of the things that he writes sometimes.

1813
01:50:52.000 --> 01:50:56.720
<v Speaker 1>So I'd like to make a public request and then

1814
01:50:56.800 --> 01:50:59.840
<v Speaker 1>you can twist his arm a little bit to see.

1815
01:51:00.359 --> 01:51:02.239
<v Speaker 1>It's kind of like the old improv, you know, you

1816
01:51:02.319 --> 01:51:05.199
<v Speaker 1>give a situation and then see what comes out and

1817
01:51:05.680 --> 01:51:08.600
<v Speaker 1>take the phrase a commitment to reality and see if

1818
01:51:08.640 --> 01:51:12.039
<v Speaker 1>he can write a song. Oh, there's my public challenge.

1819
01:51:13.079 --> 01:51:17.600
<v Speaker 2>That's so great. His name is David Matthews and you

1820
01:51:17.680 --> 01:51:21.840
<v Speaker 2>can find him online and Spotify everywhere. And he does

1821
01:51:21.960 --> 01:51:24.000
<v Speaker 2>write songs and writes beautiful songs.

1822
01:51:24.520 --> 01:51:26.760
<v Speaker 1>Yes, And the last time I saw you, I said

1823
01:51:26.920 --> 01:51:31.279
<v Speaker 1>he should be famous. And the songs that he writes

1824
01:51:31.760 --> 01:51:35.439
<v Speaker 1>are so incredible. And that's the thing about apples and trees.

1825
01:51:37.600 --> 01:51:40.520
<v Speaker 2>Well, I appreciate that it was hard letting go of

1826
01:51:40.600 --> 01:51:44.399
<v Speaker 2>that apple. When he got married and has nine children,

1827
01:51:45.600 --> 01:51:49.399
<v Speaker 2>it was hard letting go. But boy, fruitfulness is certainly

1828
01:51:49.479 --> 01:51:50.680
<v Speaker 2>one of his attributes.

1829
01:51:51.079 --> 01:51:55.520
<v Speaker 1>So glory to God. Well, Frederica, thank you so much

1830
01:51:55.600 --> 01:51:58.479
<v Speaker 1>for being so generous with your time. It's been an

1831
01:51:58.520 --> 01:52:02.720
<v Speaker 1>absolute pleasure. I'm just like I said, I thank God.

1832
01:52:02.640 --> 01:52:05.960
<v Speaker 2>For you day. If you know how I feel about you.

1833
01:52:06.159 --> 01:52:09.560
<v Speaker 2>I expect great things from you, and you're very easy

1834
01:52:09.640 --> 01:52:13.359
<v Speaker 2>to talk to, and you're a very good listener. They

1835
01:52:13.359 --> 01:52:17.000
<v Speaker 2>are a very patient listener. So thank you for inviting

1836
01:52:17.039 --> 01:52:20.119
<v Speaker 2>me on your podcast. And I pray for you and

1837
01:52:20.600 --> 01:52:22.600
<v Speaker 2>pray that you'll be able to do great things.

1838
01:52:24.159 --> 01:52:24.800
<v Speaker 1>Glory to God.

1839
01:52:25.479 --> 01:52:28.680
<v Speaker 2>All right, thank God, Well, so long.