Speaker 1: What is up, fellow, Siko's I am Dan Pavalley coming
at you with the one the only you know him
from the NBA podcast, fame of Yahoo Sports, fame of
HBO Max fame.
Speaker 2: And of course where you're most likely to.
Speaker 1: Recognize him from only fans, celebrity, mister mort Jensen.
Speaker 2: Let's go to the Utah Jazz.
Speaker 1: Do they need another big They have Jackson Hayes and
use of Nurkic.
Speaker 2: Kyle Philipowski is still there too.
Speaker 1: In the end that the Walker Kessler deal grant and
I don't know where if you want to talk about
that more to trade. I really wanted to see Walker
Kessler play next to Jared Jackson Junior and Larry market In.
But I do think the amount the Lakers gave up
from a Jazz's perspective, given how unhappy Walker Kesler seemed
with not getting an extension, I don't know that that's
a trade Utah could have reasonably turned.
Speaker 3: Down, right, No, No, they got so much and look
Nurkics you stare. Jackson Hayes is there like they're trying
to cobble together a solid center rotation. All of that,
I get it. Kessler would have been, you know, the
diamond to this current iteration of the jazz, like that's
just the way it is. And defensively speaking, of course,
but like when you're offered that, and they were also
balking at the financial numbers, I think it's entirely fair
to just take it because like, how many picks does
team have right now?
Speaker 1: Are they? Are they not loaded? There?
Speaker 2: Flushing again?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean they gave up some of the Jaron
Jackson Junior train and then made it back tenfold from
the Walker Kessler sign and train.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, which means in many ways you got Jaron
Jackson Junior for free. I mean, I mean you can,
you can choose to look at it that way, but you.
Speaker 1: Still lost Walker Kessler as part of all that you
have d I was very much kidding to be pick
neutral basically after the fact though impressive, right right.
Speaker 3: I just so if you want another big man, do
you want that to be a center or like an
ad child four?
Speaker 1: Well, that's that's what I was gonna ask you, because
I think you could make the case and say just
paper over the center. Minutes you have Nurkic and Jackson
Hayes and then your closing lineup might have always been
we want Jaron Jackson Junior at the five. The Memphis
Grizzlies had been about league average or worse defensively with
him at the five since twenty twenty twenty twenty three.
They've also seldom been healthy. I will say, though, I
think putting Jackson at the five too often takes him
out of the role he's best suited to play. And
I also think that it's probably riskier unless you think
you have enough on ball defensive juice in front of him,
which as of right now, I mean I like Cody Williams,
like his defense has probably ticked up. I think Case
Bailey's gonna be a good defender. Darren Peterson should be fine,
But as a right now, I don't know that you
have enough there.
Speaker 2: So that's why I'm.
Speaker 1: Wondering if it behooved them to try and get someone
who is better than it doesn't need to be someone
you invest a ton of equity in. But it's oh
better than Jackson Hayes, even like better than use of Nurkic.
You're oh, so they should just sign you? Right?
Speaker 2: Sign me?
Speaker 3: Is being better than jack Jackson. I think Jackson Hayes
is full of empty calories. I don't like him as
a player.
Speaker 1: That was a joke. I was kidding. That's he seems
like he's got some questionable off court stuff too.
Speaker 2: So oh yeah, I think that's too right. That doesn't
help there, That doesn't He so a name that I
had thought of.
Speaker 1: I don't know what it cost to get them, but
we're actually this is a segue from the team we
just talked about. In the Hornets. They have Steinbach, they
have calk Brenner, they have nase Red. Two of those
guys are probably best suited at the four and read
in Steinbach. But if they're taking the longer view, most
the Diabathe is gonna be a free agent next summer. Hmmm.
Him on the Jazz and now they would have to
worry about his free agency. But he's not gonna cost
anywhere near Walker Kessler. I think he would make a
lot of sense on a lot of teams, but in
TA specifically, it's the salary structure. I think, even after
this year, not the best, like it's just not on
the level of Walker Kessler defensively, but he's probably you
trust him in space more. And then I think if
Jaron Jackson Junior is in front of him, and you
have bigger You're always gonna also have either Lowry Market
or Ace Bailey.
Speaker 2: Around him just that size.
Speaker 1: I think that would be the type of move I
would like to see them go out and make to
feel better because I was ready.
Speaker 2: I made this joke on Blue Sky.
Speaker 1: I was ready to pencil in the Jazz for fifty
plus victories before the Walker Kessler trade. Then I was
watching Darren Peterson's Summer League debut and I said, I'm
still excited to pencil in the Jazz more than said,
I'm not actually sure if I'm there yet.
Speaker 2: I haven't sat down and done it, but I want
to see.
Speaker 1: I'd like to see a better five on the who's
not triple J on this roster, and they clearly have
the assets to go get them. I guess my question
to you was, is there an incentive to doing that
now or is this more.
Speaker 2: Of a well, let's just wait and see.
Speaker 1: Yeah, wait that happens really Yeah, But I mean, look,
I will say your idea of Abase, yeah, Look, look
Chandler sv threat scene.
Speaker 3: He would be right to do so because he's awesome.
Diabase is awesome. I love him.
Speaker 2: That does mean needs to leave the Hornets though.
Speaker 1: Right, No, no, no, no no. Wasn't he like best friends
with LaMelo too? Maybe they isolated Musa Diabaate. Maybe I'm
imagining that, but maybe they ended up just isolating isolating
Musa Diabate with that trade.
Speaker 3: All I know is that Mussat Diabase locked Wemp the
f up over the in the regular season for one game,
like completely annihilated him. You don't do that if you
are not extremely potent of a defensive player.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, he but that that would be the
type of move. I mean, I had Kita on the list,
but he just got his extension, so he'd be off it.
If you were waiting until mid season, this probably cost
you a ton of pick equity. But let's just say
the Hawk season goes off the rails and Yuko Congo's
available marketing triple Jared Jackson Junior and on Yukko Congu.
Speaker 2: That's not you don't have the biggest five man.
Speaker 1: Like the six ten center. Yeah, Jared Jackson Junior, same
thing that would work? Yeah, yeah, I don't think you should.
That's not to be fair though, That's probably not where
you should be allocating your your trade assets.
Speaker 2: I would be.
Speaker 1: Fun as hell to watch, but it was on that
it was a even. Look, if Charlotte wants to get
rid of Ryan Kalkbrenner, I think he's probably better than
Jackson Hayes at.
Speaker 2: This point already.
Speaker 1: Yeah, as a standstill rim protector. He's just he's just
gonna be bigger. And that's why I think ultimately nourk
is just gonna play it Son, because you're you're gonna
need the rebounding. I mean with Kessler out like you
were always on my ass for saying, oh the rebounding
and the rebounding like with Jackson ju and your marketing
with no Kessler in there to rebound the shit that
The thing I take exception too is I don't know
why you think Larry Markinen is a terrible rebounder.
Speaker 3: No, no, no, I'm saying he's not, Like he's not
an elite rebounder nor and Jackson hay or sorry not
Jackson Jaron. Jackson Junior is out right bad. So like
the combination of that frontline is just worrisome, right, Like
you need to have someone in there who just goes
get you a board like Marketnen as well has had
issues on the glass before, Like, we can't.
Speaker 1: He's not your he's not the most physical, but he's
with the exceptional last season when Walker Kessler didn't play,
So that's per fair. But he's rated as eighty six
percentile on defensive rebounding, ninety fourth, ninetieth the past two
seasons in Utah. I've not been banner rebounding seasons for
him on the defensive glass though. You are right right,
So I'm just saying, like that's the thing, but yet,
could they use another big man? Absolutely? Like, but I like,
are there minutes? Because if they're gonna play Nurkic, which
they will because they just paid him twenty one million,
and they're gonna play Jaron Jackson Junior, they're gonna play
Lauri Markton, I assume they're gonna play Kyle Philbehowski as well. Like,
where are the minutes gonna come from? Well, again, my
thought was, I'm playing Diabate over someone like him. I'm
playing him over all the bigs, not Jared Jackson, you,
but all the standard options that they have right now.
Speaker 2: So that wasn't that's to me.
Speaker 1: The minutes will be Oh when is Jackson Hayes gonna play,
It would be the question that I'd be asking d Yeah,
that makes sense, makes sense. I do you understand your
point of why not? Just that at this point they
do seem like they're and wait and see mode. But
I I was so stuck on seeing Walker Kesla, Larry
Market and Jared Jackson Junior play together that I want
someone else at the five other than Usuf Nurkic or Jackson.
Speaker 2: Ray's just I feel like I'm oded, you know what
I mean?
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I hear you, I hear you.
Speaker 2: Where do you want to go next?
Speaker 1: So I only have one more thing on the list,
and that is what even are the Washington Wizards? What
are they at this point? Like Davis is in there.
Speaker 3: They traded for DeAndre Aiden, They signed Tree Young to
a contract that it was just way too rich for
my blood, way to Richie and I were talking about
like thirty five forty million a year. Then he signed
for what fifty three?
Speaker 2: He also got a trade kicker at a player option. Right.
Speaker 3: I I just don't know what this team is. And
that's that's not necessarily a bad thing because they haven't
pivot away from the young guys, right like du Bonsa
is there and like Sars, Therelabali, Trey Johnson, I mean obviously.
Speaker 2: Cam Wiche, George will Riley.
Speaker 3: Or yeah, Tristan Vuovich justin Champagne, like they they have
guys there and and by the way, Julian Reese and
of the deceason on a high note, like they have
good talent, they have good players. But I mean at
the end of the day, I just don't see the
cohesion here, like what are they trying to win?
Speaker 1: Now? Are they trying to be competitive? Like as of
twenty twenty six, twenty twenty seven, are they looking ahead?
Like what are we? What are we doing here? I
think there's one lottery reform, so that comes without I
think that needs we can can that go without saying
from now on? Or do I constantly need to qualify that?
But there clearly was I think when we saw the
Trey Young and Anthony Davis trades, as opportunistic as I
thought they were at the time, there was clearly a
mandate there from the good we need to get better.
I don't know how good they can they can be.
I think that the center rotation, if it's the big
man rotation with Saar Davis and Ayton that's actually in
a pretty good space, even Tristian Vuksovich being there. But
I also have questions still about this team's floor spacing.
And then just with Trey Young, he's a good player,
the three point efficiency has been for him in the
gutter for a couple of years now, and I think
we've still yet to see can he play different styles
in a larger ecosystem where he isn't the sole focus.
And I think that's I think it's important because of
the other guys on this roster in general, whether it's Keisan,
George Trey Johnson, but I think it's most important because
now Aj Debants is here and he has never ranked
more for his career.
Speaker 2: He has never ranked lower than fourth in the league.
Speaker 1: In the percentage of his offensive time spent on the ball,
and the only time he didn't rank in the top
four was last year when he ranked seventh, And so
we just haven't seen it. That's my big question, which
is why I was just flabbergasted by that contract. You
just acquired him in a salary dump. Ye, they have,
So I'll say this, I think it's more likely if
both teams are equally healthy. I think it's more likely
the Wizards are in the top six next year than Charlotte.
I think Charlotte may have the more coherent long term
plan in place, But the Wizards are just teaming with
so much individual talent and it's not even ill fitting talent.
They're like a real deep team. I think it's just
you need a couple things to pop in this of
who's going to become the better shooter? And can Trey
Young play different? The health stuff with ad that's obvious,
But can Alex Sar We've seen him hit a higher
clip of his threes. Can he do that for an
entire season? What does can blow Kulabali hit more of
his threes? Right? Does Keishaw George look like? Is more
of a secondary option when when he's healthy? What does
agent de BoNT to look like right out of the gate?
What type of license is he going to have? What
type of agency is he going to have on the offense? YEP,
I don't know what the Wizards are. I'm intrigued, confused,
but intrigued exactly. And that's where I am too, Like
I want to be optimistic about this. I'm going to
be optimistic about this because again, it seems like they
have the one foot in the wind. Now they have
the one the other foot in in like like, let's
straight try to win later or develop guys or whatever
you want to frame it. Ass Like we've seen it before.
Boston tried to do the same thing, didn't quite work.
Like but at least this makes a little bit more
sense because you still don't have of like the elite
floor like floor leading, general court vision, ish guard outside
of Trey Young within the Young frame or within the
Young core framework. So like, perhaps this just works, Like
I'm I'm not ruling that out, but I I have questions.
Is pretty much where I'm landing on this. What do
you think you're running you're coaching the Wizards. Well that's
the other thing here, that's I don't know if it's confusing,
but I'm just clocking it. So you elevate David Vanderpool
to the front office, and he was on the front
office track previously in twenty thirteen, so that's but now
you have Patrick Ewing and Steve Clifford there as assistants,
and you do have a new lead not a new
lead assistant to be promoted from.
Speaker 2: Within on the lead assistant I'm just just.
Speaker 1: Watching, like a lot of people of Brian Keith as
the coach that's going to be the next to go.
I don't know if the Wizards are so urgent, it'd
be a move made mid season. But that's another thing
that's going on with this team. What is it but
your coach, you're bro Keith? What's your best without seeing
it in action? What is your default five man lineup?
My default? All? Right? Trey? Do I go? Keishean over
Trey Johnston? I think I do? Yeah, Yeah, I do.
I agree? And and Trey on the court together is
gonna would be a defensive catastrophe. You're right.
Speaker 3: And it's a little bit small too, and and Keishawan
is just so much bigger. Yeah, Trey Keishawan. And then
at the three, and could just Debonsa, It's Debonsa. And
then it then we have the whole conundrum who's the
four because both Sar and Davis wants to be four
men instead of centers.
Speaker 2: But I got I haven't seen really was.
Speaker 1: Part of like the pre draft process as well, like
he wanted to play the four. I don't know what
it is with these tell them you know what, don't
tell the tell Anthony Davis that he's the Forum and
playing next to Starr and tell Sar that he's the
Forum playing right, and just all the difference just right. Yeah.
So I think that is my my preferred closing lineup,
which is wild because then you actually have a pretty
good bench, like you have a bench of Bill and
like Trey Johnson. That's not bad.
Speaker 2: DeAndre Aiden can whitmore, justin him, Benny.
Speaker 1: Can wit more. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I don't necessarily hate this team. I
just try to figure out what the hell they are.
Speaker 1: I can already feel it. I'm probably smashing there over.
This is nothing to come back to my I can
already feel it in my bones.
Speaker 2: All right. So I have a couple of things.
Speaker 1: Let me pick one to do before we get into
just the Jaylen Brown stuff. Okay, let's do this one
MORET is a Denver Nuggets salary dump coming. We saw
the report from the steinline that they're not necessarily they're
they're willing to match Peyton Watson if he gets an
offer sheet without making a salary dump of any kind.
Paint me every shade of skeptical on that. As of
right now, I think they have about two million dollars
in room beneath the second apron, and that's assuming they
just wave. You want to salentchu nois, I don't even
have his full salary pencils in there. This team is
up against the repeater tax I don't I'm gonna be
pretty shocked. That's the word I've used a lot during
this particular episode. There's no way they're going into the
second apron, right, they just got bounced in the first round.
If they wouldn't do it previously, why are you doing
it now? They won't And it's a shame because I
think about this. You have prime Nikola Jokic one of
the best players, do you that's my other question? But
carry on, No, well, that is far more interesting. I
don't want to talk about the goddamn salary cap if
you have a bigger question about Jokic. Do you believe
Nikola Jokic's extension stance where the latest is that he
wants he prefers to just wait and sign a five
year Oh no, no, no, I don't believe that. All right, no, no,
no's But I was just saying, he's like in this
prime and that's why they.
Speaker 2: Should You said The question is for how much longer?
Speaker 1: How much longer did they have That's a fair question. No,
because I think he's I think he's looking at this
and going I have questions he should And by the way,
I thought, I actually hope he's lying with his explanation.
Speaker 2: He's so smart.
Speaker 1: I have to believe he is, because you know what,
if you were so concerned about actually maximizing your your payday,
you probably would have extended last year and then extended
again in three years when you were eligible to do it,
rather than waiting for like, so I can get the
extra year of guarantee money locked in now.
Speaker 2: So I'm hoping that this is his way.
Speaker 1: I applauded it when I saw the report that he
was gonna wait on the extension.
Speaker 2: Initially, good, put some press.
Speaker 1: They've You've been the one of the lowest maintenance superstars
in the league, like right up there with Steph, and
it's time to like, let's apply some pressure to this
front office. I'm not buying the explanation that we're seeing
from him. Now. Financially, you can game it out to where, yeah,
locking in the extra year in the for him could
make sense. I'm just not buying it because if you
were that concerned about it, you would have extended already
and then you would have extended again in three years.
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, you're you're right. So the question is where
where does his eyes linger? Because his best friend just
had a lot of help in Los Angeles and they've
been locked up, like, I don't know if there are
any streight chips there that makes sense in terms.
Speaker 4: Of they have.
Speaker 1: They have zero chance of getting him now, no cap
space next summer, no draft picks to trade. That's kind
of what I'm That's that was exactly what I was saying, Dan, Yea, Yeah.
Speaker 2: Boston, why why why why would Boston want Nicola?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 3: No, no, why why would any team want Nicola Jokic?
I'm asking why would the co want Boston.
Speaker 2: To play with Jason Tatum and Derek White.
Speaker 3: You think that's like the needle mover, you think those
guys are like I'm question, I'm not I'm not like
trying to be sassy. I'm genuinely asking you think you
think that that is like enough for Jokic or you
want does he realize.
Speaker 1: That next year he's gonna be like thirty two? Right?
For well one, I think he wants to stay in Denver.
I think that much is clear. I'm rooting for it.
But Boston, I mean Boston with Tatum and Derek White
and okay, Nikola Jokic is costing you your pick out lay.
But it's an organization that's shown they can mind value
on the margins. Look at where they drafted YOUO Gonzales,
who is the deal breaker in Giannis talks. As ridiculous
as that might sound, Jordan Walsh, the Kada extension like
that was a good like they found Caden where they
got kid in the door in the first place, and
then that extension I think ends up aging fairly well.
It's under the mid level exception. That would be like,
are you, as Nikola Jokic, if you're looking at this objectively,
are you more intrigued right now as you and I
are talking by Boston's trajectory if you're on it, or
Denver's trajectory if you're on the team.
Speaker 3: I mean, look, it's a good question because I'm not
exactly loving where Boston is going considered ever since winning
the title. So I think that is also like what
am I baking in here? Am I baking in that?
Jokichen his team just has like this analytical view of
where the team is going, or do you think they're
looking at things from a straight on perspective, because that's
that's also important, Like players don't necessarily gauge situations the
same way you and I do.
Speaker 2: Well do you have? That wasn't even my favorite test.
Speaker 1: I was just going through the list of team, but
what is the team you're I was more so throwing
this out, do you I wasn't gonna get into is
he gonna leave? I was more so thinking do you
buy his extension stance, which I think that both of
us do not that he is no send a message
to the front office, absolutely, and he's usually not the
one to do that in the same way like he
he'll do that, like like he said multiple times, he
will go to ownership or at least leadership and just
let them know.
Speaker 3: This feels like something else. This seems like he's a
little bit fed up with the situation or not not
in terms of that he wants out, but it seems like,
you know, you have to be serious, But in terms
of like the team, I don't think he's eyeing any
teams at this stage yet, right.
Speaker 2: Like, I wouldn't think he would.
Speaker 1: I think he's so committed to Denver that I would
guess he hasn't even thought I was. More so, what
are the teams that would make sense? Is than Nikolio
like coming in and also as the Nuggets if Nicole.
Let's say nicoliok isn't going to sign an extension, because
he can sign at any point this year. But let's
say he's already ruled it out. He's saying I'm not
signing it. You have to at least think about trading him, right,
You can't afford to lose him for nothing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's why I brought up the Lakers, because again
I assume that if he at any point once out,
he's going to tell the Nuggets I want to play
with Luca. I. That just seems to me to be
a thing like obviously, okay, what what you're You're.
Speaker 2: How are they get are you? So it's Walker Kessler
reeves no pick.
Speaker 3: Again, I'm talking from the side of Jokic. Again, a
player doesn't have to go in and make all these
calculations and and make all these analysis that you and
I have to make. But I wouldn't be surprised if
that's what he gets into that he goes to ownership
or leadership and just says I want to play with Duka,
and then the onus is on them, like do they
trade him to the Lakers or whatever poopo platter they
can get compared to what it's worth, or are they
going to try to sell the farm even though they
don't have it to get Luca and Denver? Like I
just think that is ultimately what he's gonna want to do.
It feels like those two are somehow, some way trying
to get there.
Speaker 1: I that would be something I don't envy that team's
resulting defense when they end up with those two, and
I don't I can't see it happening. Just based off
what happened with the Lakers. It would have to be
Denver trades for Luca. Maybe does the Lakers see go
so belly up that Luca requests out after this year?
Speaker 2: I guess maybe.
Speaker 3: That's also a long shut right about. I'm just saying
from the side of Jokich that if he wants out eventually,
I'm pretty sure that Luca is going to be a
name that's going to be brought up. Like, I don't
think the European ankle is something to be disregarded.
Speaker 1: Sorry, I think he could be disregarded in the sense
of I just don't understand how it works.
Speaker 2: Is he taking less? No, that's scare at the Lakers.
Speaker 1: Again, I'm saying from his perspective, goddamn it. So who
what happened like salary dumping with them? What's gonna happen here?
I'm assuming they're gonna bring Peyton Watson back, right. They're
open to sign and trades apparently if they lose him.
I don't know what message that's necessarily sending to Jokic.
I've floated because Memphis, I don't know if there's enough
Memphis has the Jaron Jackson junior traded player exception, Does
Christian Brown cam Johnson and a swap for KCP get
that Dell done? You're getting off and then you can
resign off? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, because again you have to
look at it also as you were getting Peyton Watson back, right,
Like that's an addition. It's a bad it's a bad
deal for the Nuggets. Like I just I'm not a
fan of Christian Brown's contract anymore. I was looking his
two point percentage dropped by thirty three points when Jokich
was off the floor last year. That is insane, right,
and and look, you're you're you have to like make
some sacrifices here.
Speaker 3: It's a shame. I actually loved what they did last year,
just with the whole Camp Johnson situation, but he just
didn't materialize in the way that they thought he would.
I think you and I even had them as one
of the biggest winners last year in the offseason, and
and I.
Speaker 1: Actually had them as a loser. I wasn't a fan
of the the Johnson deal Johnson, actually really I didn't.
I didn't like the value. I came at it from
the perspective of you have Nicole Jokich in your prime
and you used your best tra.
Speaker 3: Then I'm misremembering then then it might have been Brian
and I who did that? My mistake, all right, I
know that's bye. By the way, that's horrible that I
got you confused with Brian sapporik that that's.
Speaker 1: Just there are worst people you can He's super tall,
So I'll take it. I don't and by that deal,
I don't even know where I land on it today.
I still think that was a misuse of an asset,
But like I think Cam Johnson is was fod like
and he was their most reliable player by the end
of the playhoffs last year.
Speaker 2: So I just don't I'm.
Speaker 1: Looking at it if you, especially for a team that
doesn't have a ton of shooting as it is, if
you need to dump Cam Johnson because you don't want
to go into the second apron or is this a
team that's I don't know how they do it, but like,
are they just gonna be because they're a repeater?
Speaker 2: Are they gonna be looking at duck the tax entirely?
I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know how they get there, because what are
they into the taxes right now?
Speaker 3: They're fifteen almost eleven million over? Oh that's before Marvin
Backley and Tyas Jones.
Speaker 1: I think you're at fifteen if you wave way boundness. Yeah,
So I mean that would be do you just dump
Cam Johnson then you trade Peyton Watson and let it roll?
Speaker 2: That would be.
Speaker 1: If I'm Jokis, that's alarm Bell City. So I'm I
guess my question is how does and I don't know
the answer. That's what this whole exercise is for. I
don't know how this whole rigamarole ends. Is it they
trade one player resigned Peyton Watson? Is if they just
let Peyton Watson walk? Is it they trade two players
bring back Peyton Watson? Are they just getting rid of
two players to duckt the tax? I think there are
a lot of different scenarios in play here, and most
of them make me feel uncomfortable.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, absolutely, And I think that is fair. When
you're paying Jamal Murray and Nicola Jokic this amount of
money and Aaron Gordon and the Ferdy plus million area,
he would.
Speaker 1: Be another name where it's where they like. We've seen
Murray and Aaron Gordon kind of in trade rumors. I
don't think you could deal either one of those guys
and get better. If I had to pick who's more
likely to go, I feel as if it would be
Aaron Gordon. I just think breaking up the Jokic Murray synergy, right,
is like a cardinal sin.
Speaker 3: I not I agree, but I mean you could also
add Gordon to that. I don't even think it's just
Jokic Murray. I think it's Jokic Murray Gordon.
Speaker 1: Oh, I think it's I'm in agreement with you. I
think if they moved one, though, it'd be more likely
to be Gordon.
Speaker 3: Yeah, same, same, just also because he's easy to move, frankly,
like it's easy to move thirty one million than fifty.
Speaker 1: So let's break this down step by step. Will the
Nuggets be a second Apron team next year? Yes?
Speaker 2: Or no?
Speaker 1: No? No?
Speaker 2: Will will the Nuggets be a luxury tax team next year?
Speaker 1: Yes? Yeah? I think so.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I honestly don't know. I got bad, I got
bad vibes.
Speaker 1: Maybe I should be happy, I should feel more confident
because they haven't done anything nuclear to this point. I
don't feel great about that. Is Peyton Watson on the
Denver Nuggets next year? Inconclusive?
Speaker 2: Here's a better one.
Speaker 1: Are both Peyton Watson and Cam Johnson on the Nuggets
next No? I don't think so. No. I think I
think that's probably the right answer, which is just awful. Yeah,
you sir have not given We had other questions, but
we'll cover other teams later this week. You sir, have
not talked about on a podcast yet the Jallen Brown trade. Right? Uh?
Not in English? No? All right? I was actually hoping
to bring you on for the Danis version. So never
mind then, But we do have Brad Stevens. I don't
know if you saw his comments on it, gave an
explanation behind the Jallen Brown trade, did the whole we
lost sleep and he essentially we've talked about this before,
you and I, me and Grant, I think just others
about how for all this talk of the three max
model being dead, we might be approaching a point where
the two veteran max model is too heavy to bear.
Speaker 2: Teams you it is too have to bear.
Speaker 1: Brad Stevens kind of essentially confirmed that even though you
didn't save a ton of money with Paul George, you
did increase your optionality by getting draft picks.
Speaker 2: And his deal is done one year sooner.
Speaker 1: Knowing what Brad Stevens said, knowing the talk around Jaalen Brown,
the on off splits all that, where have you landed
on this, Tren? I'm very curious to know what you think.
So I wasn't as low on what Boston got in
return as everyone else, even though obviously like Brown was
the best piece going out, like Philly got him, that's
a win right there. But I do think Paul George
just fits into the makeup of the Celtics right now
under Joe Massula. The major question for me is health,
Like if Paul George is only going to play forty
to fifty games, that's probably an issue. But when you
think about his playing style, and if you think about
like the perimeter orient three point volume that they are
sporting in Boston, Paul George fits right in, like six',
ten takes a shit ton of, threes makes them at
a decent, clip like if he gets even more, Up
he's the type of guy who can actually maintain that
level of, efficiency which is pretty. INSANE i think he's
severely underrated historically as a, shooter like we all took
just too many we all made too MANY pg jokes
or you, know playoff p, Jokes like there's something there
in terms of the shooting. Department is he still The
Paul george of? Old absolutely. Not that's also why you
have to just realize that in terms of like the
raw volume or, sorry the raw return in terms of trade,
value The celtics didn't get a better package in return
than what they gave. Up BUT i do think we
sold we were a little too harsh On Paul george
and his fit In. Boston to be, honest.
Speaker 2: That is probably.
Speaker 1: FAIR i JUST i GUESS i didn't see a lot
of people coming at it From Paul george is trash
and a terrible fit In. Boston it was just the
value proposition of Trading Jalen brown on off splits and
all was why.
Speaker 2: Did you make this move?
Speaker 1: Now would you have been better off just letting this
ride out until the end of his contract or the
final year of his?
Speaker 2: Contract that would lead me to BELIEVE i do give this.
OUT i said. This people did not.
Speaker 1: React well to our reaction to THE i didn't realize
how Many celtics, fans by the, way just think That
Jalen brown is eminently detrimental to the. TEAM i honestly
had no. Idea that was just like a thing floating around. There.
Wow but my point was IS i would rather if
we were talking about title equity and it was over
the next two to three, years would you rather have
what The celtics just, Did Paul george end those picks
Or Jalen.
Speaker 2: BROWN i would rather Have Jalen. Brown.
Speaker 1: Yeah same if the goal is the title, Immediately, yes
it's a different discussion if you view it theynamic was
so untenable behind the scenes because he was dangled in
trade talks for g, honest and because he wanted an,
extension which the extension. Stuff i'm all for players getting,
paid AND i think it kind of it, sucks but
this was also collectively, bargained so it's on them as.
Well the fact that we're getting into a point, where's,
oh Donva mitchell just signed an extension that is gonna
be one of the worst deals in the, league if
not right, now like because it's five years and three
hundred and twenty three million. Total he's but now the
way that we're talking about these players and it's like
they get to a certain number and it's, just, oh
they're not worth. IT i understand it from both sides
to where, yeah you can't really build a team having
two guys worth more than thirty five percent of the
cap when one of them is not a top ten.
PLAYER i JUST i still would have either weighted with
the hope that a better market materializes by next summer
or just to increase my title. Odds, again unless this
was my point THAT i trailed off. On things were
so intenable behind the scenes because he wanted an extension
and for some reason that's you have three guarantees years
left on your, Contract why is it you don't need
an extension as soon as your extension, Eligible which is
WHERE i would push back if The celtics, need like
felt as if they needed to trade. Him that's still
Where i'm sort of at on the. Trade IT'S i
think The celtics are still going to be really. GOOD
i Just i'm wondering if they've leaned too far as
of right now Into missoula, ball BECAUSE i think Having
Jalen brown and again the on off splits are not
always going to support This having someone Like Jalen brown
the stuff he can do on the, ball and deviate from,
That Jason tatum can do much of the. SAME i
Think Jalen brown's on ball rim pressure is just going
to be better at this. POINT i think that's the
WHERE i. LAND i think that has more value than
What Paul george is just better off as a compliment right.
Now and the other thing THAT i think might be
being missed he closed the season really strong last year
after getting a twenty five game for sabbatical, suspension and
so what happens if he finally does play in more, games,
which by.
Speaker 2: The, way he historically.
Speaker 1: Hasn't Don the last time he played in seventy games
or shortened season equivalent was twenty. Eighteen that's a long time,
ago and he's played in eighty six games combined over
the past two.
Speaker 2: Seasons SO i THINK i.
Speaker 1: Probably understand it a little bit more when you start
to think about the cap dynamics of it. All But
i'm looking At Paul george's number anyway and, wondering still
wondering whether this needed to be done, now and the
fact that they felt it did still leads me to
believe that we just haven't even heard close to the
full story of what was happening behind. This, yeah we
were waiting For Ramona shelbourn on that, one AND i
don't even, know but, yeah The athletic published like a
good look behind the, curtain and it JUST i came
away from it, saying all, right there was clearly tension, there.
Speaker 2: BUT i don't know if, Like i'm not seeing anything
that should have.
Speaker 1: Been we need to get rid Of Jaln brown, Now
and by the, WAY i think what's also risky here
Is Jason. Tatum if you're picking between the two. Players
it's not a. CONTEST i think there's also a SUBSET
i didn't know this either of fans that Believe Jalen
brown is better Than Jason. Tatum Jason tatum finished last
year injured after coming off The achilles and so it's
a risk to trade what's been one of the most
durable guys in the, league especially who's been able to
handle a pretty heavy defensive. Workload that's also Like Paul George,
durability that type of defensive workload isn't his bag. Anymore
SO i was Looking Jalen brown are the last half.
Decade four times in the last half decade has played
over fifteen hundred minutes while ranking in the seventy fifth
percentile or better of self created shot making efficiency and defensive.
Speaker 2: Workload the only other.
Speaker 1: Players who have done the same while playing one thousand
minutes or more four times in the past half decade
Was Michale bridges Dearon fox AND i can't even remember
who the other name. WAS i already forgot, it but
it was like a it wasn't og Why I'M i
already forgetting what the name, was but he had value
to them even despite what the on off splits are,
saying And i'm just curious as to how, they maybe
some of the younger guys are able to paper over.
IT i did not come away From Brad stevens's press, conference,
though thinking that another move was around the. CORNER i
think a lot of people have been waiting for something
to happen this, offseason AND i don't know THAT i see.
Speaker 3: IT i agree with that that was thought the IMPRESSION
i got either from reading what he.
Speaker 1: Said, no, finally just thoughts On Donovan mitchell got the full.
BOAT i was wondering if he was going to take
less than the than the especially because did you see
the report that The celtics were trying to negotiate With
Giannis they didn't want to give him the full thirty
five percent max and an extension and that's why the deal.
Speaker 2: FELT i don't know if that's, true but that was the.
Speaker 1: Report so you see things like, that and we're having
all these circular conversations about the importance of balancing out your.
Books can't have too many expensive. Stars So i'm just
waiting for who's the guy who's the bigger name that's
going to get, squeezed and they just Dearon. Fox No Brainer,
Max Jaron Jackson, Junior No Brainer, max renegotiate and Extend Donovan,
mitchell no Brainer. Max which his total COMMITMENT i threw
out three hundred and twenty three million dollars. BEFORE i
don't even know if that's. Right his total commitment now
is five years and three hundred and twenty three point
six million.
Speaker 2: Dollars, yeah remaining on his deal.
Speaker 1: Almost three hundred Mili oh more, yeah more and more, more. Yeah.
Yeah the extension is for for two seventy seven, plus
but including this, year he's now up to five and
three twenty three plus a lot of.
Speaker 2: Money.
Speaker 3: Yes so my thoughts on that, are we need to
talk about cap percentages and we need to make sure
that people are aligned on just what a NEW nba contract,
is because he's going to have a player option of forty,
no seventy five, million and that seems, preposterous but that
is where the cap is. Now like we are approaching
AN nba where, players the superstars are getting approximately one
hundred million dollars a, year and we still have fans who, say,
oh fifteen million a year for a starting small forward
is too. Expensive, Nope, nope so we need to like
re educate people on the salary cap and and basically
what contracts are nowadays because people ARE i saw the
reactions to this, was, WELL.
Speaker 1: Nba, contracts it's gotten out of. Hand they. Haven't they haven't.
Changed it's it's the same.
Speaker 3: Percentage it's it's just that the cap increased and so
the volume of the, Contract, yeah.
Speaker 1: It, is and it isn't the same percentage because of
like the way that the if you're looking at how
the contracts, are Like Donovan, mitchell's like the average percentage
of the cap based off, projection he's gonna be worth
thirty five point one four percent over the next five
years and that's including this year when he's not on
the thirty five percent.
Speaker 2: Max so there is there.
Speaker 1: Is something to that where the cap, growth like the
raises on these contracts are now outpacing the salary cap, growth,
Right and so this deal For mitchell is, ACTUALLY i,
know it's only a couple percentage. Points we're talking about
millions of dollars a year at that, Point so it's
like his salary is gonna end up on his player option, year,
yeah which is like that's a huge for someone going
into his age thirty four. Season who's a small. Guard
he has the three point shot making going for. Him
i'm Just i've had this conversation With. Grant i'm not
advocating for, it although again this is collectively.
Speaker 2: BARGAINED i DON'T i don't know.
Speaker 1: THAT i think we're going to reach a point where
these players are going to have to make the binary
choice of, well DO i want to be on a
contender deeper into my career or DO i want these max?
Deals BECAUSE i think part of the issue with even
if you say you can only give out one or
TWO max, deals the most expensive players also tend to
be the oldest when we're talking about, stars and so
they're at a point where their production is like underpacing
what they're being.
Speaker 3: Paid brian AND i had that conversation for almost ten,
years and it's such a. PROBLEM i still think the
thirty five percent max should be after year seven and
up till to year, ten and then the year ten
max should be thirty. PERCENT i just flib.
Speaker 1: It there's ALL i, mean there's also been the there's the,
pitch AND i Think Bobby marx has been one of
the biggest advocates of this is that you still give
out like the thirty five percent max can still be given,
out but it would only apply as thirty percent of
the salary. Cap and he likened it to do you
know how right, Now let's say if you sign a
veteran minimum, contract but you have ten plus years of,
experience your minimum salary is what in twenty twenty, six
twenty twenty, seven that is three point nine, million but
you're only going to count against the books for two
point four to five, million and so it was a
Similar it was like an analog for, that but you're
just dealing with higher dollar. AMOUNTS i don't THINK i
THINK i like, that especially if you're couching it with
the player needed to have been drafted by the team
or traded on his rookie. Scale that just wanted to
apply To Donovan, mitchell then it won't apply To giannis With,
miami and that's the would Have it might have kept
The celtics together though it would be an instance where
it would.
Speaker 3: Apply, yeah, yeah it. Might so how. Old i'm just
trying to figure Out mitchell, here like he's he's in
his age thirty, season right or is he Entering.
Speaker 2: Yeah this contract goes through his age thirty four.
Speaker 4: Season, yeah it's, look he kind of signed the guys
to keep your competitive, window because it makes sense if
you win a, chip right, like and you in order
to win.
Speaker 3: A, chip you have to have your best guys. There,
like is that deal going to age probably horrendously later? On, yeah,
yeah when he picks up a seventy five million dollar
player option at the age of what forty, four that's
going to be. Problematic, Absolutely but you just you don't
have a. Choice, Uh i'd be.
Speaker 1: Curious i'd be curious if there was any negotiation or
if they just came to him with, this, right this
is this is gonna be like how it goes With wemby.
Speaker 3: Too it's just gonna be like knock, Knock yeah it's,
Time oh all, Right i'll sign.
Speaker 1: It, okay, Cool it's gonna be.
Speaker 2: That he's also so much Like.
Speaker 1: Donovan mitchell is the perfect example because he's probably at
the point in his career where now it becomes a
discussion as to when how much more can how much
longer can.
Speaker 2: He provide live up to the value of that.
Speaker 1: CONTRACT i think he's probably IF i had to, GUESS i,
mean he's been entrenched in the ALL nba discussion every single,
year and so if he stays that course for the
next two to three, years then you're only looking at, all,
right the final two years of this deal or what's?
Speaker 3: Underwater, yeah and that's not. BAD i, mean that's that's
just how it. Is that's the price of doing. Business
like there are other CONTRACTS i would point to as more. Worrisome,
yep that was the GUY i had in. Mind, Yes,
uh would you rather? Have so their commitments are.
Speaker 1: Different But Devin booker four years and two hundred and
fifty point six million Or Donovan mitchell owed five, years
three hundred and twenty three, Million give me that. Again
Devin booker's got Four i'll round it down four years
and two fifty For Devin, booker five years and three
twenty three For Donovan.
Speaker 2: Mitchell who would you rather?
Speaker 1: HAVE i Like Mitchell, moore So i'm gonna Go. MITCHELL
i believe the right answer is Probably, mitchell BUT I
i feel LIKE i might Pick Devin. Booker i'm, like
just such A Devin booker stand that it's probably.
Speaker 2: Disgusting my value is.
Speaker 1: Playmaking would you take both of those guys Over Diaron
fox's four for two twenty.
Speaker 2: One, yeah all, right there you. Go that's that's good
damning with fame.
Speaker 1: PRAISE i, mean, OH i Like, fox but like that
that deal was it was a forty Percent. Max just
it's it's interesting BECAUSE i THINK i said this in
this first, section it's less problematic For San antonio than
basically any other team in the. League, yeah which is
why it's. Interesting, uh unless you have anything. Else the
actual final addendum here we did not get the news though.
More BUT i have to ask you where Is Lebron james?
Going and people have asked me Why i've called this
four point. Zero it's because it's the fourth time that
he'll be changing teams in free, agency So i'm calling
It Lebron watch four Point oh that's very. Creative it's not.
Creative i'm just some people want why is it Like
lebron Watched part one and forty? Seven so, okay are
you asking me WHERE i think he'll go or WHERE
i want him to?
Speaker 2: Go let's do. Both where do you want him to?
Speaker 1: Go? Spurs they're not even on or they're not even
on The they're on the, whiteboard but they're not on
the final.
Speaker 2: LIST i don't.
Speaker 1: Care that's WHERE i want him to go because that
makes sense to play with The Martin rosen got it
with the mar.
Speaker 3: And harry b who's. RETURNING i just wanted an old man. Crowd,
NO i think HE'LL i think he'll Be. Cleveland he'll
sign some Major netflix deal and then just it's the final,
year it's going to be a For well.
Speaker 1: Show it's going to Be. Cleveland, yeah it does seem
like it's pointing To. CLEVELAND i Predicted Golden. State grant
talked me into it because The Golden state's been big
on the meaningful basketball. Terminology and then there was the
quote that was released that Said lebron wants to play meaningful.
BASKETBALL i thought it was a tie, in But i'd
rather see him just go somewhere else other Than. Cleveland
there's just a lot of been, There done that for.
ME i know it's there's the poeticism of, it but been,
there done, That AND i flip. FLOPPED i, SAID i
Predicted Golden. STATE i was on A cleveland radio station
the other day and, said it feels like it's just
going to Be cleveland at this.
Speaker 2: Juncture and if that's what it. Is i'm not just.
BORING i get. It good for, him it's his.
Speaker 1: Choice but if if you were to try and make
the case where we're going to try and win a
title do the most for his, legacy.
Speaker 2: What's the? Team is it still The? Spurs, no.
Speaker 1: Genuinely, asking because if you win a title with a fourth,
team that's. Insane oh, Sure but like he wouldn't be
like the main, guy you, KNOW i mean he would be.
Speaker 2: What what team are we talking? About you Said? Spurs, well,
men where would? You where would be the if you
were trying to boost your?
Speaker 1: Legacy IF i want a title, HERE i think the
most people the answer has Been. Minnesota imagine going To
minnesota and winning. Title, yeah that's a good, one, NO
I i but, LIKE i don't know If lebron has
grown like above that now with the title stuff and
like you just want the story now and stuff the.
Titles but like if he were to finish out his
career with the, title that would be pretty. Epic where
the hell is? That?
Speaker 2: Though we're Not?
Speaker 1: Denver then if he goes To, denver everything is safe
from what we talked about. Earlier what is oh what,
yo kitch isn't going. Anywhere is that what you're talking.
ABOUT i, mean it's just like it's just like then
we're talking They're gonnada or they're gonna Trade Christian brown
and they're gonna. Salary it's, like all, right it's, fine
just go, ahead you're Getting, Lebron it's. Okay. YEAH i,
mean if you Keep Peyton, watson bring In, lebron and
you don't have to Trade gordon Or Jamal, murray you
can do whatever you. WANT i THINK i Prefer Cam
johnson still be, there but still, Right detroit would be
enough if he was looking to really like, that that
would be another good one of the teams that are
still being, mentioned though it's Probably minnesota Because i've only Seen, Denver,
Minnesota cleveland Or Golden state as the or My miami's
just that's been, there done that for, me and they're
not gonna win with him there too thin same Got
lebron And. LaMelo, okay, yep oh, Man, yeah he would
definitely institute of BEDTIME tv after dinner on game.
Speaker 2: Nights, RIGHT i love. IT i love.
Speaker 1: It and as soon as he sees That hummer drive
out of the drive out of the, arena he's gonna
call him, like don't you do that shit?
Speaker 2: Again, well he's gonna be one to call the cops
out on the, pan, RIGHT i.
Speaker 1: DO i did find it funny that part of The
wolves's pitch was, hey come play With it was just
like so. Uninspiring it was just them listing their. Roster,
basically they're trying to Pitch Lebron i'm playing With Rudy
LaMelo ball And Anthony Edwards and it's, like, yes those
are and d the players were on.
Speaker 2: The team that you would be selling him, on as
opposed to, like what are what are other teams pitching him?
On players they don't? HAVE i GUESS i. DON'T i
don't know.
Speaker 1: Right right or market value, like but but here In
minnesota we're, cold but we Have Anthony, edwards which you already.
Know here's our. Pitch it's. Great was there anything else
happening this offseason and free agency That Jalen durren thoughts
what's going on with him and The?
Speaker 3: Pistons just, BRIEFLY i think his market has just right,
up AND i think the postseason ruined.
Speaker 1: HIM i, LIKE i think he was really feel, yeah
oh like he was just so. Bad he was so.
Bad in the.
Speaker 3: POSTSEASON i think so many teams that were in on
him before the start of the playoffs were, like uh oh,
OH i, no we can't justify this at, all and well,
rightfully so we'll see what. Happens he's probably looking for
a sign and trade situation right now to get his,
money BUT i would just really like to know where
he'll try to find that.
Speaker 1: Market do you.
Speaker 2: Think there's any chance he signs his qualifying? Offer?
Speaker 1: YEAH i. Do that would BE i, mean it happened
a few times last, year but An ALL nba player
sign when's? Less have An ALL nba player signed a qualifying?
Offer has that ever? Happened greg went out didn't Make ALL,
nba BUT i remember he was one of the bigger
names that did. IT i don't think. So, No Jonathan
kaminga Made ALL nba in his, mind SO i guess,
mate does that count he didn't sign his qualifying?
Speaker 2: Offer never?
Speaker 1: Mind, NO i THINK i think he's he's going to
be in for a rough. TIME i don't even. Know
The kings had been floated as the sign and trade.
DESTINATION i don't even know the problem with that is
who do they have That The pistons are gonna be, like,
yeah well we'll negotiate a sign and trade because they
can't just Take duran into. Anything they're in the tax
right now or after waving To, rosen they should be.
Fine BUT i don't even know what's going out in that.
Deal they're trying to sell you on you get into
base your compensation. Issues so it's not even Zach lavine
wouldn't even. WORK i. KNOW i think it's going to
be a tough.
Speaker 3: One someone did, THIS i think On Blue sky just
basically outlined how difficult that deal would.
Speaker 2: Be To sacramento. Specifically, yeah.
Speaker 1: It's a good.
Speaker 3: QUESTION i don't know what's gonna happen. Here and like
teams are drying up with cap space, too like there
is a lot out. There it just seems to me
like this this just reeks of a qualifying offer and
then let's go back to the well next.
Speaker 1: Year so you think you think he's gonna sign his
qualifying like you actually think that's what's going to.
Speaker 3: Happen interesting unless they just have it comes To jesus
moment both sides and, say, okay, look you Know kate
is pushing us to really sign you and you guys
do have a, great you, know great chemistry on the,
Court like we expect you to get. Better we're hoping
that the playoffs last year was just you, know you
having an. ANEURYSM i mean that was. Me but like
he just played so, Poorly Jesus. Christ that was just
one of the worst Performances i'd seen from an OLD nba.
Guy so like there might be, that but as of right,
NOW i think he's probably inclined to take the C.
Speaker 2: Qo do you think what do you think the?
Speaker 1: Op BUT i guess if You're, detroit what is your
what are you maxing? Him what is your max value on?
Him would you give him The so the max another
team could have given him was four, years one hundred
and seventy seven point three. Million do you think that's
the number there we'll.
Speaker 2: Want to get.
Speaker 1: To do you Think Walker castler getting four for one
thirty help or hurt? Him hurt him in the sense
because The lakers are. Out but.
Speaker 3: So let's, see what is twenty percent of the salary?
Cap that is like forty three, million, right forty two
forty three?
Speaker 2: Million that sounds about.
Speaker 1: Right Walker kesser's on the books for thirty point two
and is eighteen point three percent of the.
Speaker 3: Cap, Okay so If I'm, detroit that's What i'm. Offering
i'm offering a flat rate of twenty, percent so basically
twenty percent year, one and then that number flat throughout
the remainder of the.
Speaker 2: Contract so it would it de escalates in percentage of the.
Speaker 1: Cap, yeah but like the number stays the same as
something Like Jalen johnson's. Contract. Wow, YEAH i think if
that's their, OFFER i would understand it from their, perspective
and it's their Perspective i've been approaching it. From, yes
if that's the offer, though then, YEAH i would think
That jalen durn ends up signing his qualifying. Offer.
Speaker 2: Right their off season's been, Well i'll talk about them another.
Time their off season has been. INTERESTING i think people
were expecting more fireworks than. This. More you have anything else.
Speaker 4: You want to talk?
Speaker 1: About or can you tell our fine audience where they
could find you and all the fantastic work that you.
Speaker 3: Do?
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 3: Absolutely you can find me over at THE nba podcast
over At Yahoo, sports and if you Understand, danish you
can listen To Buster beater or catch from calling games
ON hbo mec
Speaker 1: Until next, time and as, ALWAYS i leave you all
with the shout out to the, one the, only the,
indelible the one who could really bring The hornets to
glory after they Traded LaMelo, ball Mister Frank Yila keina