WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.360 --> 00:00:06.320 It's Nightside with Dan Ray on WBSY Boston's new video. 2 00:00:07.799 --> 00:00:10.759 All right, welcome back everyone. My name is Dan Ray, 3 00:00:10.800 --> 00:00:14.039 and we are now entering the nine o'clock hour on Nightside, 4 00:00:14.119 --> 00:00:16.800 and this is the hour when we get into some 5 00:00:16.839 --> 00:00:20.280 of the issues and topics of the day. And yesterday 6 00:00:20.760 --> 00:00:24.079 I noticed an article at the State House News Service 7 00:00:24.120 --> 00:00:28.920 written by Sam Drysdale, and it's about an effort in 8 00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:34.719 Massachusetts to eliminate life sentences without the possibility of parole. 9 00:00:35.880 --> 00:00:37.320 I think most of you who know me. 10 00:00:37.359 --> 00:00:40.880 Know that I am very critical of something like that. 11 00:00:41.119 --> 00:00:44.520 But I said to my producer today, there's a fellow 12 00:00:44.600 --> 00:00:48.320 named Dan Delaney of the Delaney Policy Group or Daniel Delaney, 13 00:00:48.399 --> 00:00:51.000 I should say, who is lobbying for the bill? I said, 14 00:00:51.000 --> 00:00:52.640 why don't we invite him on and we can talk 15 00:00:52.679 --> 00:00:56.320 about it. Whatever his point of view is, he supports 16 00:00:56.359 --> 00:01:00.719 this points of view always welcome here. So first of all, 17 00:01:00.759 --> 00:01:04.879 let me welcome Daniel Delaney of the Delaney Policy Group 18 00:01:05.319 --> 00:01:08.239 to Nightside. Daniel Delaney, you prefer Daniel or Dan? 19 00:01:09.239 --> 00:01:12.319 Dan is perfect? Okay, Well I'm in trouble when I 20 00:01:12.319 --> 00:01:12.879 hear Daniel. 21 00:01:12.920 --> 00:01:15.920 So that's pretty much the way I grew up too, 22 00:01:15.959 --> 00:01:18.319 by the way, so I can identify with what you're saying. 23 00:01:19.120 --> 00:01:23.480 So your group is Delaney Policy Group, and you are 24 00:01:24.159 --> 00:01:27.959 a lobbying group, so your lobbying for this bill. Have 25 00:01:28.079 --> 00:01:29.680 you been up at the state House a long time? 26 00:01:29.879 --> 00:01:31.480 It looks as if you've been there for a while. 27 00:01:32.519 --> 00:01:32.879 I have. 28 00:01:33.159 --> 00:01:36.519 I first got to the state House as a legislative 29 00:01:36.519 --> 00:01:41.719 aid back in two thousand, worked in the state House 30 00:01:41.719 --> 00:01:45.920 for a while, worked for some nonprofits, worked for five 31 00:01:46.000 --> 00:01:50.359 years of the Department of Public Health as their legislative liaison, 32 00:01:50.760 --> 00:01:53.760 and then back in twenty twelve, hung my own shingle 33 00:01:53.840 --> 00:01:55.959 and started the Delanney Policy Group. 34 00:01:56.480 --> 00:01:57.359 Okay, good for you. 35 00:01:57.719 --> 00:02:01.719 So just for garification, because they never want to make 36 00:02:01.760 --> 00:02:05.000 an assumption here, we'll get into the substance of this 37 00:02:05.120 --> 00:02:08.719 piece of legislation. But this is not you're not a 38 00:02:08.840 --> 00:02:11.400 hired gun here. It looks to me from what I read, 39 00:02:11.599 --> 00:02:15.000 is that you believe in this. You may you're you're 40 00:02:15.120 --> 00:02:18.439 hired as a lobbyist, but it's not that you say, hey, 41 00:02:18.560 --> 00:02:20.759 I don't care what side of the issue. It sounds 42 00:02:20.759 --> 00:02:23.199 to me like you support this piece of legislation. 43 00:02:23.680 --> 00:02:28.400 Absolutely absolutely support this legislation and happy to talk about it. 44 00:02:28.800 --> 00:02:32.639 Sure, perfect, Okay, So so you know that I'm on 45 00:02:32.719 --> 00:02:34.240 the other side of the issue, but I want to 46 00:02:34.240 --> 00:02:39.400 give you every opportunity to explain it. What what is 47 00:02:39.439 --> 00:02:43.960 the benefit of this legislation. I can understand the benefit 48 00:02:44.039 --> 00:02:48.759 to people who find themselves facing a life without parole sentence, 49 00:02:48.840 --> 00:02:51.280 feel free to talk about that. But what is the 50 00:02:51.319 --> 00:02:55.199 benefit to the to the survivors? And often these are 51 00:02:55.400 --> 00:02:59.000 murder cases in Massachusetts. As I'm sure you know, what 52 00:02:59.400 --> 00:03:03.039 is the benefit to the surviving family members of the 53 00:03:03.120 --> 00:03:07.960 victims and also to the con Wealth of Massachusetts. You know, again, 54 00:03:08.000 --> 00:03:10.120 you don't have to give me a long presentation, but 55 00:03:10.159 --> 00:03:12.199 I'm sure you can hit some of the high points, 56 00:03:12.240 --> 00:03:14.639 just as the advocate of this tell us, tell us 57 00:03:14.680 --> 00:03:17.439 why you supported well, I. 58 00:03:17.360 --> 00:03:21.400 Mean, I support it because I think that that it's 59 00:03:21.439 --> 00:03:26.120 important for the common Wealth to make sure to on 60 00:03:26.159 --> 00:03:30.840 a regular basis sort of revisit old assumptions and old 61 00:03:30.879 --> 00:03:34.639 policy positions. You know, when I think about the reasons 62 00:03:34.680 --> 00:03:37.759 people go to jail, they typically roll out, you know, 63 00:03:37.960 --> 00:03:40.879 three different kinds of criteria. You know, one is the terrence, 64 00:03:41.919 --> 00:03:45.280 one is for punishment, and one is to enhance public safety. 65 00:03:46.159 --> 00:03:49.759 And so when I think of folks who've been in 66 00:03:49.840 --> 00:03:55.120 jail for twenty five or more years. We know because 67 00:03:55.120 --> 00:03:59.560 the data shows that at the public safety risk it's 68 00:03:59.759 --> 00:04:04.560 greatly reduced. I think, and you may not agree, but 69 00:04:04.599 --> 00:04:09.719 I think, you know, the the deterrent effect sort of 70 00:04:09.800 --> 00:04:14.520 at the margins, I don't think is is that impactful. 71 00:04:15.280 --> 00:04:18.680 But I think the you know, the benefit for for 72 00:04:18.759 --> 00:04:26.480 the commonwealth is saving commonwealth funds and expenses that are that, 73 00:04:27.160 --> 00:04:30.600 particularly when you have elderly or sick inmates, that can 74 00:04:30.639 --> 00:04:36.920 be exorbitant. We have over seventeen or we have nearly 75 00:04:36.959 --> 00:04:40.680 a thousand men and women serving life without parole, and 76 00:04:41.240 --> 00:04:43.240 you know, it costs one hundred and twenty seven thousand 77 00:04:43.279 --> 00:04:47.480 dollars a year per inmate just to house them, and 78 00:04:47.560 --> 00:04:49.879 if they're if they're sick, that can easily triple. 79 00:04:50.199 --> 00:04:50.720 So there's a. 80 00:04:50.680 --> 00:04:54.680 Cost savings on that side. On the side of sort 81 00:04:54.720 --> 00:04:59.879 of the survivors and the and the families, every every 82 00:05:00.120 --> 00:05:04.279 family who has been struck by the tragedy of homicide 83 00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:10.519 feels it differently and processes it differently. But but I 84 00:05:10.560 --> 00:05:12.439 know from sort of the people that I've worked with, 85 00:05:12.879 --> 00:05:17.199 there are a large number of folks who, after a 86 00:05:17.199 --> 00:05:22.720 certain period of time feel that feel better having interacted 87 00:05:22.800 --> 00:05:26.759 with with the person who had caused harm for their 88 00:05:26.800 --> 00:05:29.199 family and being able to sort of process it and 89 00:05:29.240 --> 00:05:31.079 put it and put it aside and move on with 90 00:05:31.120 --> 00:05:35.360 their life. That's definitely not the case for everyone. And 91 00:05:35.399 --> 00:05:43.800 that's but every every surviving family or every surviving you know, friend, acquaintance, 92 00:05:43.879 --> 00:05:46.759 loved one has their own individuality in the way that 93 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:51.079 they interact with it. And what this bill does is 94 00:05:52.519 --> 00:05:56.480 offer the opportunity for the parole board to assess after 95 00:05:56.519 --> 00:05:59.319 twenty five years, what's in the best interest of the commonwealth. 96 00:06:00.199 --> 00:06:02.680 Is it in the best interest for you know, this 97 00:06:02.720 --> 00:06:05.720 person to remain incarcerated, or is it in the best 98 00:06:05.720 --> 00:06:08.360 interests for the Kamwalt for this person to go out, 99 00:06:08.680 --> 00:06:10.959 not be a burden on the commwalth at the expense 100 00:06:11.079 --> 00:06:14.240 level that you would be being in concert incarcerated, and 101 00:06:14.279 --> 00:06:17.839 try to re enter society in a productive way. 102 00:06:18.800 --> 00:06:22.319 Okay, well, a couple of things real quickly, you use 103 00:06:22.399 --> 00:06:25.240 what I would consider to be a bit of a euphemism, Dan, 104 00:06:25.319 --> 00:06:28.120 and that as you refer to someone who caused harm 105 00:06:28.160 --> 00:06:33.439 to their family. There's a lot of people who get harmed, 106 00:06:33.759 --> 00:06:37.360 you know, by crime. You know, someone breaks into their home, 107 00:06:37.839 --> 00:06:41.920 they they steal some money, or they're they're the victims 108 00:06:41.920 --> 00:06:45.399 of a robbery or their car stolen. That's causing harm 109 00:06:45.439 --> 00:06:47.759 to the family. But in order to get a life 110 00:06:47.759 --> 00:06:50.680 sentence without parole in Massachusetts, you have to have done 111 00:06:50.800 --> 00:06:53.279 a lot of harm and probably taken the life of 112 00:06:53.319 --> 00:06:57.240 a loved one. So I think again, I view that 113 00:06:57.680 --> 00:07:02.040 the phrase caused harm to the family. That strongly understates 114 00:07:03.000 --> 00:07:07.720 what people receive life sentences without parole here in Massachusetts. 115 00:07:07.720 --> 00:07:09.519 For what I want to do is I want to 116 00:07:09.560 --> 00:07:11.720 take a quick break. I just wanted to mention that 117 00:07:11.759 --> 00:07:14.439 to you because I understand you made a really nice 118 00:07:14.480 --> 00:07:19.839 presentation deterrens punishment, public safety. I get all of that, 119 00:07:19.879 --> 00:07:22.600 and I want to address the points you made, and 120 00:07:22.639 --> 00:07:24.920 I want to give you an opportunity to respond. And 121 00:07:25.199 --> 00:07:26.959 I got to take a quick break here. So let 122 00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:31.079 me reintroduce you Daniel Delaney of the Leny Policy Group. 123 00:07:31.160 --> 00:07:34.480 Dan Delaney is lobbying on behalf of a bill that 124 00:07:34.600 --> 00:07:40.800 would eliminate the life sentences without the possibility of parole 125 00:07:40.800 --> 00:07:44.279 here in Massachusetts. I disagree with him, and I want 126 00:07:44.319 --> 00:07:47.680 to get this up on people's radars. If you want 127 00:07:47.680 --> 00:07:50.600 to ask Dan a question or make a comment. I'm 128 00:07:50.639 --> 00:07:53.680 going to open up phone lines six one, seven, two, five, four, 129 00:07:53.800 --> 00:07:56.519 ten thirty six one, seven, nine, three, one ten thirty. 130 00:07:56.560 --> 00:07:58.959 I will again, you know, advise you as with any 131 00:07:59.000 --> 00:08:01.839 guest on my program, they're the equivalent of a guest 132 00:08:01.839 --> 00:08:05.079 in my home. And you can ask, however, tough questions 133 00:08:05.120 --> 00:08:07.360 you want, make whatever statement you want, but I would 134 00:08:07.399 --> 00:08:11.800 ask you again keep it, keep it professional, and be respectful. 135 00:08:11.839 --> 00:08:14.240 That's the only rule we have here on Nightside. As 136 00:08:14.319 --> 00:08:16.800 Dan and I will probably I hope be able to 137 00:08:16.839 --> 00:08:19.720 do the same. So we'll be back with Dan Delaney 138 00:08:19.759 --> 00:08:24.399 a question about whether or not Massachusetts should eliminate life 139 00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:27.439 in prison sentences without the possibility of parole. My name 140 00:08:27.480 --> 00:08:29.480 is Dan Ray. This is Nightside. Will be right back. 141 00:08:30.439 --> 00:08:35.360 You're on Nightside with Dan Ray ONBZ Boston's news radio. 142 00:08:36.120 --> 00:08:40.279 My guess is Dan Delaney. He is a lobbyist. He 143 00:08:40.639 --> 00:08:44.120 runs a group called the Delaney Policy Group on Beacon 144 00:08:44.200 --> 00:08:47.840 Hill and he is lobbying on behalf of a piece 145 00:08:47.879 --> 00:08:51.080 of legislation that if an actor, would eliminate life without 146 00:08:51.159 --> 00:08:52.480 parole in Massachusetts. 147 00:08:52.639 --> 00:08:53.759 Dan, just a quick. 148 00:08:53.559 --> 00:08:57.759 Response for me to your very articulate presentation just before 149 00:08:58.240 --> 00:09:02.399 the commercial break, and that is I disagree. I remember 150 00:09:02.440 --> 00:09:07.679 when the death penalty was eliminated here in Massachusetts by 151 00:09:07.720 --> 00:09:11.559 a single vote of the legislature back earlier this century, 152 00:09:12.039 --> 00:09:14.399 and one of the arguments that is always used to 153 00:09:14.480 --> 00:09:17.919 eliminate the death penalty. And by the way, I'm someone 154 00:09:17.960 --> 00:09:20.600 who has had some experience in the criminal justice system 155 00:09:20.639 --> 00:09:24.200 working on behalf and getting out people who have been 156 00:09:24.279 --> 00:09:27.799 intentionally and wrongfully convicted for a murder that they never 157 00:09:28.080 --> 00:09:31.559 were involved with in any way, shape or form. So 158 00:09:31.799 --> 00:09:35.879 I understand that their mistakes are made sometimes. And on 159 00:09:35.919 --> 00:09:39.840 the death penalty, my view is very specific that I 160 00:09:39.919 --> 00:09:43.759 support it when it is applied to someone for whom 161 00:09:43.799 --> 00:09:46.600 there is no scintilla of doubt about their guilt, and 162 00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:50.080 I think about the Boston bombers as an example, and 163 00:09:50.480 --> 00:09:55.000 when there are serious, aggravating circumstances. So I would apply 164 00:09:55.080 --> 00:09:57.519 the death penalty a very limited fashion. But those who 165 00:09:57.600 --> 00:10:01.240 oppose the death penalty always say, oh no, it's better 166 00:10:01.320 --> 00:10:03.480 to put someone away for the rest of their life 167 00:10:03.519 --> 00:10:06.759 without the possibility of parole. The death penalty is an 168 00:10:06.840 --> 00:10:11.399 easy way out, So that argument was used in Massachusetts. 169 00:10:11.480 --> 00:10:14.519 Put them away, block up the key that's the toughest 170 00:10:14.519 --> 00:10:17.320 penalty we can give them. That's what they deserve to 171 00:10:17.360 --> 00:10:20.480 eliminate the death penalty. Now, the same folks, and I'm 172 00:10:20.519 --> 00:10:22.320 not saying you, but the same folks who are on 173 00:10:22.360 --> 00:10:24.080 that side of the issue is saying, let's get rid 174 00:10:24.120 --> 00:10:29.000 of life without parole. So my question is, what's next. 175 00:10:29.360 --> 00:10:31.879 We get rid of any imprisonment, we just you know, 176 00:10:31.960 --> 00:10:36.279 give them timeouts. I mean, these there's a lot of 177 00:10:36.279 --> 00:10:40.440 people who do not belong to be amongst you know, 178 00:10:40.759 --> 00:10:42.679 there are a lot of bad people in this world, 179 00:10:42.759 --> 00:10:46.200 and I just don't understand the mindset that would say 180 00:10:46.320 --> 00:10:50.000 on some you know, I can cite ten twenty fifty 181 00:10:50.039 --> 00:10:51.639 one hundred horrible crimes than. 182 00:10:51.559 --> 00:10:52.440 You could as well. 183 00:10:53.360 --> 00:10:55.360 I want to put people away and lock them up 184 00:10:55.399 --> 00:10:58.879 because they need they do what they need to understand that, yeah, 185 00:10:58.919 --> 00:11:01.440 there's deterrence here. You're never going to kill anyone else. 186 00:11:01.480 --> 00:11:03.039 The only other person you could kill would be a 187 00:11:03.080 --> 00:11:06.080 prison guard. And you're going to be punished because the 188 00:11:06.120 --> 00:11:10.919 act was so horrific, and that public safety will be 189 00:11:10.919 --> 00:11:14.000 better with having these people away. And I don't really care, 190 00:11:14.200 --> 00:11:17.879 you know that, you know what age they are, obviously 191 00:11:18.120 --> 00:11:20.639 people who are seventy are less likely to engage in 192 00:11:20.759 --> 00:11:23.879 violent crime from a testosterone point of view than people 193 00:11:23.919 --> 00:11:24.600 in their twenties. 194 00:11:24.639 --> 00:11:26.159 I think I would agree with you on that. 195 00:11:26.320 --> 00:11:30.159 So it just seems to me that the push from 196 00:11:30.200 --> 00:11:33.320 the political left is always to be better and kinder 197 00:11:33.399 --> 00:11:38.440 and gentler with criminals, even the worst criminals, with less 198 00:11:38.440 --> 00:11:40.799 concern about victims. I'll give you a quick chance to 199 00:11:40.840 --> 00:11:42.840 respond to that. Then I want to go to phone calls. 200 00:11:43.559 --> 00:11:46.120 Sure, I'm sure, and I appreciate, I appreciate the question. 201 00:11:46.200 --> 00:11:48.759 I appreciate the work that you've done on behalf of 202 00:11:48.799 --> 00:11:50.360 folks who've been wrongfully convicted. 203 00:11:50.399 --> 00:11:51.840 But I'll cut. 204 00:11:53.200 --> 00:11:53.960 Right to the point. 205 00:11:54.039 --> 00:11:58.440 I think that if you look at who's on the 206 00:11:58.519 --> 00:12:02.639 proll board and who's going to be evaluing evaluating these cases. 207 00:12:02.960 --> 00:12:06.159 If I have my way and this law, this bill 208 00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:07.919 saales soon, and it's bading it to a law exactly 209 00:12:07.960 --> 00:12:12.679 as it's written, you still have a group of well trained, 210 00:12:13.799 --> 00:12:18.320 expert people who've spent decades working with prisoners on parole 211 00:12:18.399 --> 00:12:22.879 or probation to evaluate whether or not he, you know 212 00:12:23.039 --> 00:12:27.039 he or she, even though they've murdered someone, it should 213 00:12:27.039 --> 00:12:29.559 be released on parole and all all that this Bill 214 00:12:29.639 --> 00:12:33.120 is asking for, is that option for the evaluation. So 215 00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:36.759 we're not saying twenty six years is too long, everyone 216 00:12:36.799 --> 00:12:38.840 needs to get out of jail after twenty five years. 217 00:12:38.919 --> 00:12:43.600 We're saying that at twenty five. At twenty five years, 218 00:12:44.279 --> 00:12:49.360 it's worth seeing whether the person is changed, whether they're 219 00:12:49.519 --> 00:12:54.159 the understanding of the crime has changed, and whether they 220 00:12:54.840 --> 00:12:59.360 whether this evaluation can take place and be freed. I 221 00:12:59.360 --> 00:13:02.360 don't I don't imagine that if there was a parole 222 00:13:02.399 --> 00:13:07.559 review board that the marathoner bombers would get out because 223 00:13:08.559 --> 00:13:11.679 you know, their crime wasn't horrible enough. So I think 224 00:13:12.159 --> 00:13:16.320 I think that to me, that's a bit of a 225 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:19.080 red herring to say we're going to let everybody out now. 226 00:13:19.120 --> 00:13:20.440 If what you want to say is, oh. 227 00:13:20.360 --> 00:13:23.200 I'm not saying and I understand, I'm not saying they're 228 00:13:23.200 --> 00:13:25.720 going to let everybody out. I'm simply saying, there are 229 00:13:25.759 --> 00:13:29.759 certain crimes that are so horrific that when a sentence 230 00:13:29.840 --> 00:13:32.919 of life in prison without parole, it should it should remain. 231 00:13:34.120 --> 00:13:36.799 The death penalty was removed in large part in this 232 00:13:36.840 --> 00:13:40.519 Commonwealth because people said, make them serve their life in 233 00:13:40.559 --> 00:13:43.399 prison without parole. That was the argument. Now the same 234 00:13:43.480 --> 00:13:47.840 folks progressive people who fought against the death penalty give 235 00:13:47.879 --> 00:13:52.320 them credit for their efforts. Are basically abandoning that argument 236 00:13:52.360 --> 00:13:54.679 and saying, well, now, let's give them a chance. Let's 237 00:13:54.679 --> 00:13:57.399 at least give them a chance after twenty five years. 238 00:13:57.399 --> 00:14:00.360 And I think that that there are certain crime tis 239 00:14:00.919 --> 00:14:06.080 that there are crimes for which they should be imprisonment 240 00:14:06.120 --> 00:14:08.799 for life without PAROLEA Are you familiar with the Phillips case, 241 00:14:08.879 --> 00:14:12.440 the doctor Phillips case in Connecticut? 242 00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:13.919 No? 243 00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:15.600 No, okay, well that's the case real quickly. 244 00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:21.080 It was a doctor and a wife and two children. 245 00:14:20.440 --> 00:14:24.679 The family was a home invasion. These two career criminals 246 00:14:25.360 --> 00:14:28.159 tied the husband up, kept him in the cellar so 247 00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:32.159 he could not help his family, raped the wife, raped 248 00:14:32.240 --> 00:14:35.159 the daughters, tied the daughters to their bed, took the 249 00:14:35.159 --> 00:14:37.919 wife to the hospital to make a financial withdrawal from 250 00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:41.080 a bank. One of them stayed at the house. One 251 00:14:41.080 --> 00:14:43.279 accompanied her to the bank. Somehow, some way, she was 252 00:14:43.279 --> 00:14:46.039 able to communicate with the teller that she needed help. 253 00:14:46.120 --> 00:14:49.320 The tell her, you know, called police after she they 254 00:14:49.320 --> 00:14:52.799 had left the bank. By time they got home and 255 00:14:52.840 --> 00:14:55.679 were in the house, police arrived. And these two guys 256 00:14:55.720 --> 00:14:58.720 knew that they were trapped inside the house. So their 257 00:14:58.759 --> 00:15:02.000 response was the doubts the beds of the little girls 258 00:15:02.039 --> 00:15:07.799 with gasoline, light them on fire, killing them and killing the. 259 00:15:07.759 --> 00:15:09.879 Wife so there would be no witnesses. 260 00:15:10.159 --> 00:15:13.559 They apparently forgot about doctor Phillips in the basement, and 261 00:15:13.639 --> 00:15:16.159 they fled from the house and were caught red handed. 262 00:15:18.279 --> 00:15:20.919 I mean, I don't want some people who did something 263 00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:23.799 like that even to have a scintilla of hope that 264 00:15:23.799 --> 00:15:26.440 they could ever get out of prison. I would put 265 00:15:26.440 --> 00:15:29.240 them in solitary confinement for the rest of their lives. 266 00:15:29.360 --> 00:15:32.440 That wasn't an eighth Amendment, Dan, there are people in 267 00:15:32.480 --> 00:15:35.720 our society who do not deserve that sort of consideration. 268 00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:38.440 I know you're speaking with a kind and a good heart, 269 00:15:39.679 --> 00:15:42.559 but I'm speaking on what I think is the reality 270 00:15:42.639 --> 00:15:46.679 that there are some crimes. You know, you would disagree 271 00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:48.960 with me that I would have put those guys in 272 00:15:49.039 --> 00:15:52.519 the electric chair because of what they did, no scintilla 273 00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:57.679 of doubt about the crime, right and certainly horrific aggravating circumstances. 274 00:15:57.720 --> 00:16:00.600 They didn't have to kill those two little girls to death, 275 00:16:00.840 --> 00:16:04.080 tied in their bed to start a house fire. So 276 00:16:04.480 --> 00:16:06.559 let's get someone, Let's get some phone calls and see 277 00:16:06.600 --> 00:16:08.360 what you and I are not going to agree. 278 00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:12.320 I'm not gonna commence, no. 279 00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:12.519 No, no no. 280 00:16:12.879 --> 00:16:14.759 I think we'd have to spend a long time for 281 00:16:15.559 --> 00:16:18.000 and for me to move you or to But this 282 00:16:18.080 --> 00:16:21.360 is a serious topic because it does talk about, you know, 283 00:16:21.559 --> 00:16:24.200 the place in which we live. I got a minute 284 00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:26.840 left if you want to respond to that, to to 285 00:16:26.919 --> 00:16:30.919 those to the examples that I just mentioned, these phymes 286 00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:36.000 with is no doubt, no doubt of of of the guilt, 287 00:16:36.320 --> 00:16:38.480 not a scintilla of doubt of the guilt that's not 288 00:16:38.519 --> 00:16:41.120 beyond a reasonable doubt, not a scintilla. And there are 289 00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:43.879 aggravating circumstances. Then there are cases I can cite for 290 00:16:43.960 --> 00:16:47.360 you here in Massachusetts, uh and around the country that 291 00:16:47.399 --> 00:16:50.480 are like this, go ahead, Well. 292 00:16:50.559 --> 00:16:52.879 I would say, I would say too quick thing to 293 00:16:53.000 --> 00:16:57.000 that one, I would I would say that the kind 294 00:16:57.120 --> 00:16:59.279 the very the people that you are speaking of will 295 00:16:59.320 --> 00:17:02.639 commit those kind of heinous crimes are unlikely to be 296 00:17:02.759 --> 00:17:05.799 deterred by the fact that I'm going to get out 297 00:17:05.839 --> 00:17:09.880 in twenty five years instead of staying in for forty years. 298 00:17:09.920 --> 00:17:14.400 Like I think for that kind of person who has 299 00:17:14.480 --> 00:17:19.240 no moral compass, I don't think the deterrent effect is 300 00:17:19.400 --> 00:17:21.680 it's reasonable to expect someone who could do something so 301 00:17:21.799 --> 00:17:24.359 heinous is going to be staying up to date on 302 00:17:24.400 --> 00:17:27.559 what the current sentencing statutes are and the marginal gains 303 00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:29.039 whether you get a parole review or not. 304 00:17:29.839 --> 00:17:32.039 And the other one that family going to a parole 305 00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:34.680 review twenty five years from now under any circumstances. 306 00:17:35.000 --> 00:17:35.599 The victims. 307 00:17:35.640 --> 00:17:38.519 I'm speaking of the victims now, because you know that 308 00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:41.200 after twenty five years, they're going to want that parole review, 309 00:17:41.400 --> 00:17:44.079 even if they know they have no hope of getting parole. 310 00:17:46.960 --> 00:17:48.880 No, that's that. 311 00:17:49.000 --> 00:17:55.279 I mean the role of the victims of surviving family members. 312 00:17:55.319 --> 00:17:59.440 I mean that absolutely has to be taken seriously. I've 313 00:18:00.519 --> 00:18:03.799 I don't every family is unique. 314 00:18:03.039 --> 00:18:05.799 I don't know. 315 00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:12.960 How they're you know, I feel like their pain is 316 00:18:13.480 --> 00:18:17.799 beyond something I could imagine. And I don't see. 317 00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:20.680 The moving the needle. 318 00:18:20.480 --> 00:18:23.200 Much one way and the other. But but every family has. 319 00:18:23.240 --> 00:18:24.720 That family's going to have to go. 320 00:18:25.000 --> 00:18:27.079 Now, if let us say in the family that I described, 321 00:18:27.160 --> 00:18:29.440 let's say that there were some younger children who were 322 00:18:29.440 --> 00:18:32.200 four or five who were staying, who are still survived, 323 00:18:32.200 --> 00:18:33.680 who somehow survived. 324 00:18:33.240 --> 00:18:36.000 Who were at home when this this horrific event occurred. 325 00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:40.799 These type of animals are going to want their parole 326 00:18:40.839 --> 00:18:43.359 review because they're going to want to what's going to 327 00:18:43.400 --> 00:18:44.799 give them a few days, are going to give them 328 00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:47.039 a ride out of the prisons of the parole board 329 00:18:47.119 --> 00:18:49.640 or whatever. Uh, And the family's going to want to 330 00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:51.960 go there and have to confront them twenty five years later. 331 00:18:52.119 --> 00:18:55.680 Let's do this, Dan, I gotta I think our positions 332 00:18:55.720 --> 00:18:57.799 are pretty clear. I got phone calls. I want to 333 00:18:57.839 --> 00:18:59.599 get to people. The only line that I have open. 334 00:18:59.640 --> 00:19:01.920 We got a bunch of phone calls. Everyone's going to 335 00:19:01.960 --> 00:19:04.880 be polite to you. Don't worry about it. You're you're you're. 336 00:19:04.680 --> 00:19:08.359 Amongst friends here, even though we think you're crazy on this. 337 00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:12.000 Okay, don't worry about it. It will take phone calls 338 00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:17.720 sixty Again, I emphasized the people maintained the night the 339 00:19:17.839 --> 00:19:23.160 night Side standard of civility six one, seven, nine. Those 340 00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:25.720 are the only two lines available right now. We got Liz, 341 00:19:25.880 --> 00:19:28.559 Jim and William and Baltimore coming up right after the break. 342 00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:35.920 It's Night Side with Boston's news Radio. 343 00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:42.400 All right, my guess is Dan Delaney. Dan is a lobbyist, uh, 344 00:19:42.440 --> 00:19:46.079 and he is lobbying on behalf of a piece of 345 00:19:46.160 --> 00:19:50.559 legislation which would eliminate UH in Massachusetts, the penalty of 346 00:19:50.599 --> 00:19:53.079 life in prison without parole, which is by the way, 347 00:19:53.839 --> 00:19:57.200 given primarily to people who have convicted who are being 348 00:19:57.279 --> 00:19:59.480 have been convicted of murder in the first degree. It's 349 00:19:59.480 --> 00:20:03.519 an obligate, gatory sentence that judges are required to hand down. 350 00:20:04.440 --> 00:20:07.079 And Dan's kind enough to spend some time with us tonight, 351 00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:09.279 so you can direct your questions to him. Your comments. Again, 352 00:20:09.359 --> 00:20:11.640 we asked you be polite. Let's start it off with 353 00:20:12.519 --> 00:20:15.880 gonna go first off to Liz in Walpole. Liz, you 354 00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:17.880 are first tonight on Nightsig go right ahead, Rome with 355 00:20:17.960 --> 00:20:18.599 Dan Delaney. 356 00:20:20.920 --> 00:20:23.960 Thank you, Dan, I appreciate you thanking my call. And 357 00:20:24.119 --> 00:20:29.960 that's two comments for Dan de Lady. Number one, I 358 00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:35.559 think in your presentation, by coming up with the justifications 359 00:20:35.599 --> 00:20:39.920 for the consideration of pardon after twenty five years, with 360 00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:45.359 the economic cost of keeping somebody incarcerated, it can be 361 00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:48.039 twisted very quickly to a really. 362 00:20:47.799 --> 00:20:51.000 Telling argument in favor of the death penalty. So I 363 00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:52.720 think that's not the reason to. 364 00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:59.240 Approach the finance as the supporting argument. The other thing 365 00:20:59.319 --> 00:21:04.279 is a question of forgiveness and as Fan has pointed out, 366 00:21:04.440 --> 00:21:10.240 having the family members surviving after a horrific murder twenty 367 00:21:10.279 --> 00:21:14.720 five years previously is I would think cruel and unusual punishment. 368 00:21:15.559 --> 00:21:17.680 So therefore, perhaps. 369 00:21:18.279 --> 00:21:21.279 The solution is to keep the law the way it. 370 00:21:21.279 --> 00:21:26.359 Is, and that the individual perpetrator, having been converted converted 371 00:21:26.599 --> 00:21:31.000 death predicted, first see if he can find a moral 372 00:21:31.119 --> 00:21:36.599 solution through prayer to the deities of his choice. 373 00:21:38.359 --> 00:21:42.640 Daniel response, Well, I mean I think that. 374 00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:51.799 Certainly FORGIVENESSES is an important component if any of these, 375 00:21:52.119 --> 00:21:57.359 if any any of these reform measures are liable to occur, 376 00:21:58.519 --> 00:22:03.519 And I do think that, I mean, I take heart 377 00:22:03.599 --> 00:22:10.000 the importance of the convicted murderer needing to reflect and 378 00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:16.160 whatever their spiritual tradition is on the harm that they've done. 379 00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:19.960 I just don't find that that's incompatible with giving them 380 00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:24.920 the option to have their sentence reviewed after twenty five years. 381 00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:28.680 All Right, Dan, I appreciate you responding similar option to 382 00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:29.720 your victim. 383 00:22:31.599 --> 00:22:35.359 They de not their victim a twenty five year. 384 00:22:37.720 --> 00:22:37.920 Yeah. 385 00:22:38.119 --> 00:22:40.400 What you're saying is that in the case of yeah, 386 00:22:40.400 --> 00:22:44.480 what Liz is saying, it's yeah, Liz is saying in 387 00:22:44.519 --> 00:22:46.599 a sense of murder, and most of the life in 388 00:22:46.599 --> 00:22:51.680 prison without parole cases in Massachusetts are first degree murder cases. 389 00:22:51.880 --> 00:22:57.400 They did not offer that opportunity for any sort of 390 00:22:58.039 --> 00:23:01.720 judicial review or otherwise after a certain period of time. 391 00:23:01.880 --> 00:23:04.839 Wells appreciate your call. I do, thank you very much, well. 392 00:23:04.720 --> 00:23:07.640 Said, thank you, breaking all. I appreciate it. 393 00:23:07.920 --> 00:23:09.640 All right, thank you, have a great night. Let me 394 00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:12.799 go to William in Baltimore, Maryland. William, you were next 395 00:23:12.839 --> 00:23:13.319 on nice side. 396 00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:13.480 Dan. 397 00:23:13.519 --> 00:23:15.319 We've heard all over the country, by the way, so 398 00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:18.160 don't be surprised with people call from different parts of 399 00:23:18.160 --> 00:23:21.200 the country. William is a regular caller. William, welcome back. 400 00:23:21.200 --> 00:23:21.839 How are you, sir? 401 00:23:23.000 --> 00:23:23.519