Speaker 1: This is a studio both and production.
Speaker 2: Day is July twelve, twenty twelve. Time is ten oh
Speaker 2: five am. Case number three oh six A one five
Speaker 2: six four two. This will be a meeting with Israel Keys.
Speaker 2: Present will be myself and TFO Jeff Bell, just us
Speaker 2: today my coffee.
Speaker 3: All right, Well, we have to go through all the
Speaker 3: same we're going on.
Speaker 4: I want to make sure, obviously, I have to take
Speaker 4: the court round that we didn't interrupt any lawyer meeting
Speaker 4: or anything like that when.
Speaker 5: Came over picking this morning.
Speaker 4: No, okay, I'm Whenever you pred your rights, you have
Speaker 4: the right to remain stile and understand that, yeah, anything
Speaker 4: you say ken will be used against you in the
Speaker 4: quarter of law.
Speaker 3: You understand that, yep.
Speaker 4: You have the right to talk to a lawyer and
Speaker 4: have him present with you while you're being questioned.
Speaker 5: You understand that, yep.
Speaker 4: If you cannot afford to hire a lawyer, one will
Speaker 4: be a point to represent you before and during any
Speaker 4: question if you wish to understand that, Yeah, you can
Speaker 4: decide at any time to exercise these rods and not
Speaker 4: answer any questions or make any statements. You understand that, Yeah,
Speaker 4: you understand each of those rights I've explained to you, Yes, Okay.
Speaker 4: Also have to remind you that we're here to talk
Speaker 4: about to other crimes. If we talk about anything and
Speaker 4: nothing to do with Samantha Cone and we can't talk
Speaker 4: about Samantha Cone, understand that.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 5: Okay.
Speaker 4: You also have a stand by council, believe Rich Kirdner
Speaker 4: and possibly Japlin Walsh.
Speaker 5: Would you like either one of those attorneys present today? Okay?
Speaker 2: I think that's it you Primal Bart, do you forget anything?
Speaker 2: You're probably no better than us. One thing I wanted
Speaker 2: to do before we jump into anything is I messed
Speaker 2: up the other day and I wouldn't well, I just
Speaker 2: wasn't as thorough as I should have done. And I
Speaker 2: want to add the bolt registration number on here or
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna ask so it's clear what Bayliner we're
Speaker 2: talking about.
Speaker 6: And then i'll just have you initial it. M. I'm
Speaker 6: gonna put the plate number from the trailer.
Speaker 7: Two, today's the twelve, and then i'll just.
Speaker 8: Have your initial buy over there.
Speaker 5: Just that I made the addition.
Speaker 8: With the boat. One thing I wanted to we wanted
Speaker 8: to show you was.
Speaker 2: A couple of pictures they had asked I know you
Speaker 2: when we talked to you about it before, I wasn't
Speaker 2: in here, but I think it was Jeff and Steve
Speaker 2: that we're in here. You mentioned that there might be
Speaker 2: where there might be something, some blood or something like.
Speaker 3: I didn't know how much at was left.
Speaker 8: I'd answer that question.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, I'd taken it apart.
Speaker 2: But if you can look at these and if you
Speaker 2: can see just maybe looking at them, or refresh your
Speaker 2: memory about where something might be or.
Speaker 8: You know what what they should look.
Speaker 5: For looking bad shape, does it.
Speaker 3: Considers it's going to be in that ending?
Speaker 2: Well?
Speaker 5: Yeah, where wh where is the top end of the motor.
Speaker 3: On this side?
Speaker 4: Here?
Speaker 3: Anywhere on this side? My guess if you find anything
Speaker 3: that's gonna be along these trim pieces, like underneath them
Speaker 3: or something, Okay, socause it got it, you know, I
Speaker 3: got on the fiberglass. I cleaned it, but I don't
Speaker 3: know if I Okay, where's the top end of the moment?
Speaker 3: I it probably got junk. I remember, I took it
Speaker 3: apart figure out what was wrong with the motor, and
Speaker 3: I think by the time I had figured out what
Speaker 3: was wrong with that, I decided the whole motor was
Speaker 3: gonna be scraped, so I think, yeah.
Speaker 5: I think I just threw it away with all the
Speaker 5: parts I took off.
Speaker 2: Anything in the boat, I don't They haven't looked in
Speaker 2: any of the stuff yet. You even know what's in here,
Speaker 2: what's in the tote or anything.
Speaker 5: Like that would be there.
Speaker 3: I d the tote. I don't remember exactly what's in
Speaker 3: the toe. Underneath the toe, there's uh removed bull floor
Speaker 3: panel where I used to keep concrete weights and stuff, Okay,
Speaker 3: And I would say any ropes or anything that are
Speaker 3: in the boat, I don't know one of them is
Speaker 3: gonna be like a tow rope for skiing, but there
Speaker 3: were I know I had quite a few other ropes
Speaker 3: in there as well that I would use for anchor
Speaker 3: ropes and tying the boat open stuff.
Speaker 2: So any tools in the boat that you remember that
Speaker 2: would we should be looking for.
Speaker 9: Anything else of interest is going to be in either
Speaker 9: those side pockets along the sides or in the glove
Speaker 9: box that I remember. I think there's there's a lot
Speaker 9: of storage compartments.
Speaker 3: All over the boat, so I don't remember what all
Speaker 3: is that, but I know that there might be some
Speaker 3: knives in the glove box. There might be you know,
Speaker 3: miscellane stuff like that. I just kept with the boat
Speaker 3: at all times.
Speaker 2: Okay, what we can do, also, if you're interested, is
Speaker 2: once they go through it, we'll have pictures of everything
Speaker 2: and we can show you that stuff too, if you
Speaker 2: if that would be helpful.
Speaker 8: I'm sure it probably be helpful to trying to figure
Speaker 8: out what's in all this stuff when you can't see it,
Speaker 8: So we could do that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it doesn't look like anyone's been in there at
Speaker 3: all since I.
Speaker 5: I was surprised how good the polstery seems like it's
Speaker 5: in pretty good condition. Still.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well that was all brand new when I was it.
Speaker 3: That whole boat was gutted before I rebuilt it, So.
Speaker 8: Why didn't you So you rebuilt it?
Speaker 5: Like?
Speaker 8: It doesn't look like a nineteen eighty two boat to me,
Speaker 8: That's why I was.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, the interior was trashed and I got it,
Speaker 3: so it's all new seats and upholstery and everything that
Speaker 3: makes sense. And I think I had to replace some
Speaker 3: glass and I don't.
Speaker 5: Know, it's the carpeting and all that stuff.
Speaker 3: I had to replaced the carpeting a couple of times,
Speaker 3: at least on the back section.
Speaker 2: Is that brand new carpeting on the back section now
Speaker 2: or is it doing something that should be looked at?
Speaker 3: Well, you might find stuff under the carpeting, but okay,
Speaker 3: there was new carpet and then I got going on it,
Speaker 3: so got it?
Speaker 8: Okay, all right, that will be helpful. So do you
Speaker 8: want to copy of this? I actually the other day,
Speaker 8: but now.
Speaker 2: All right, we had a couple of things, a few
Speaker 2: things you wanted to talk to you about today. I
Speaker 2: think Jeff mentioned kind of different than what the meetings,
Speaker 2: you know, our meetings normally are just some of it's
Speaker 2: kind of follow up stuff to what you have talked
Speaker 2: about before, just making clarification kind of stuff and just
Speaker 2: wrapping some of that stuff up, and then.
Speaker 8: Just a couple of new things. But Loki, nothing's.
Speaker 5: Start with the Eagle River.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you got more photos, just play some familiar.
Speaker 5: Yeah, the stuff was still there. There's more pictures down there.
Speaker 7: A few months.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm sure you saw that big ditch right next
Speaker 3: to there.
Speaker 5: Did you dig that ditch or was that there?
Speaker 3: No, that was a burn and that was my plan
Speaker 3: was to use that cause it was already dug.
Speaker 5: So I was gonna just have to fill it in.
Speaker 3: Right. There was a there was a big metal plate
Speaker 3: down the road that I was gonna use to cover
Speaker 3: it once I buried it.
Speaker 5: Keep it from getting dug like a sheet metal. Yeah.
Speaker 3: There was down by that other guy's driveway. There was
Speaker 3: a big pile of trash in the woods. There was
Speaker 3: a piece of metal that I was gonna use to throw.
Speaker 5: Over it and bury it. I tried to move that would.
Speaker 4: Well, it was thin piece of metal, but there was
Speaker 4: lots of it was buried and yeah, ship on it
Speaker 4: that like some countertops and stuff in therea and so this,
Speaker 4: I mean it's still there, but it's that. That was
Speaker 4: this time frame, if I remember right from our interview,
Speaker 4: is this.
Speaker 5: Like the May twenty eleven time frame.
Speaker 4: Yeah, prior to just prior to the careers, right and
Speaker 4: so and with this thing, I guess I misunderstood when
Speaker 4: you were talking about it earlier.
Speaker 3: If you wouldn't mind explain it again, what was the
Speaker 3: this was?
Speaker 4: This was this place open, like the gates were open continuously.
Speaker 4: There's no snow when you put.
Speaker 5: This in at the park there, Yeah, because it's May.
Speaker 5: Sometimes in early May it was open.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Was there snow on the ground, No, No, okay, and
Speaker 5: you think it was.
Speaker 3: No, there wasn't much snow that year, but there wasn't
Speaker 3: a lot of traffic there. I know I stay for
Speaker 3: a couple of nights, but I think there was only
Speaker 3: one or two cars that came by.
Speaker 4: Kay And when you staked it out, have you parked
Speaker 4: your vehicle there or perfect somewhere else?
Speaker 8: No?
Speaker 3: I parked a vehicle down the road by the nature center,
Speaker 3: and then I rode my bike back down. That's why
Speaker 3: all that stuff was stashed there ahead of time, cause
Speaker 3: I didn't wanna have my car in the area.
Speaker 5: How and how many days or nights or whatever did
Speaker 5: you were?
Speaker 3: You guys up there for two or three nights. I
Speaker 3: didn't stay all night, just til after.
Speaker 4: Dark, and just there wasn't but much traffic there, so
Speaker 4: never an opportunity never arose.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there was only one. There was only one time
Speaker 3: that I almost did it, but there was it was
Speaker 3: two people, and it would have been a lot of work.
Speaker 5: I kind of changed my mind on that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was.
Speaker 4: And then during this time frame, this is also the
Speaker 4: time frame you talked about, uh point warns off for
Speaker 4: out in.
Speaker 5: That Harry, right, Yeah, right after you're about the silencer. Yeah,
Speaker 5: that was.
Speaker 3: I think I went up Togo River after that incident because,
Speaker 3: uh cause a lot of police started around ancor D after.
Speaker 4: Dark, so and the and the time out of the
Speaker 4: point warns off. How late was that when that?
Speaker 5: I mean, how was it about eleven o'clock? Was about
Speaker 5: eleven o'clock? Yeah? Okay? And you think that was mid help?
Speaker 4: How far before you left for you left on June
Speaker 4: third to go to Vermont? How many days or weeks
Speaker 4: was that before that?
Speaker 7: Uh?
Speaker 3: It would have been in May some probably mid May?
Speaker 5: And do you know for sure if it was an
Speaker 5: APD officer or.
Speaker 3: Was it it was two of them?
Speaker 4: Definitely not airport police.
Speaker 3: No, I'm pretty sure I saw the car. I think
Speaker 3: it said it had the big it may it may
Speaker 3: have been an airport police if their cars.
Speaker 5: Looked the same, but I don't know. It looked like
Speaker 5: an APN me. Do you remember what kind of car
Speaker 5: was there other than the police car? What car would
Speaker 5: you watch it?
Speaker 3: It was a super station wagon? I think what color?
Speaker 3: Navy blue or darker?
Speaker 5: Maybe? Yeah? Are any more of these in Anchorage AIA?
Speaker 10: No?
Speaker 3: Okay?
Speaker 5: And maybe not specifically like this? Is there any underground
Speaker 5: I know how sometimes you'd like to be about that.
Speaker 5: Questions are not specificate. There's nothing exactly like that. Is
Speaker 5: there a five gallon bucket? I might need those again
Speaker 5: some day.
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Speaker 5: We just you know, I mean, I know, you don't.
Speaker 5: I just don't want somebody else.
Speaker 10: I know.
Speaker 4: In one of our conversations, you made a comment about
Speaker 4: how people like buried treasure and somebody somebody might find
Speaker 4: one of those some day and think it's their lucky
Speaker 4: day and they hit the motherlodes.
Speaker 5: It wouldn't be their lucky day. What's in it?
Speaker 3: Well, different things, but you know, thank money, it's not
Speaker 3: it's nothing that will get them into trouble. So no
Speaker 3: loaded guns.
Speaker 5: No, I don't. I don't bury him loaded. Thanks, I
Speaker 5: don't even think. I usually bury him with the magazines loaded.
Speaker 3: I did that once and then the springs were all
Speaker 3: screwed up after that.
Speaker 4: We like buried treasures also, we kind of had fun
Speaker 4: with it. So you're looking for something I'll to do
Speaker 4: with just kind of off to ask. I mean, it's
Speaker 4: not giving up much, but it's something for us to do.
Speaker 8: If you told us that once before. Everybody likes a
Speaker 8: barry treasure.
Speaker 3: Why I started burying stuff I was a kid.
Speaker 5: I always used to dream that I'd find buried treasuring.
Speaker 3: Fare Well, if I can't find it, I might as
Speaker 3: well create it.
Speaker 8: What about outside of Anchorage?
Speaker 2: Do you have other juice stuff like this outside of
Speaker 2: Anchorage anywhere else in Alaska?
Speaker 5: Oh, give us something to do. You guys have lots here.
Speaker 5: This week is at more fun.
Speaker 4: Actually, you just want to get out with the in
Speaker 4: the world. The weather's so nice up here. We'd like
Speaker 4: to spend time outside. Yeah, it is, and you should
Speaker 4: all take a field trip.
Speaker 11: Although the mesquitoes were kind of bad, and.
Speaker 4: I I.
Speaker 5: Stuff like that. I normally don't.
Speaker 3: I I only left that stuff there because I was
Speaker 3: planning on using eventually. I just I normally don't like
Speaker 3: to litter. I didn't really consider that littering, though, cause
Speaker 3: I figured i'd be back to bring it.
Speaker 5: Up pretty soon.
Speaker 2: Did you go back to that spot at all after
Speaker 2: you put it out there, like between after you left
Speaker 2: for the couriers in June to when you got arrested,
Speaker 2: Had you been back there to look at that stuff.
Speaker 5: Or to move it or A yeah, I've been back
Speaker 5: up there to make sure it was still there or
Speaker 5: to do more.
Speaker 3: Not well, was just looking out checking out the area.
Speaker 3: I I could tell it was still there just by
Speaker 3: driving by. Seems like I could see seems like a
Speaker 3: schi Yeah, I remember I looked slowed down and looked
Speaker 3: back in the lids and saw the lad a couple
Speaker 3: of times. Oh, I didn't figure it would go anywhere
Speaker 3: because it wasn't really close to the road, So.
Speaker 5: To stake it out any more times after that?
Speaker 10: Uh?
Speaker 3: Not not officially.
Speaker 9: I just uh would hang out up there for an
Speaker 9: hour or.
Speaker 4: Two here and there, just to see what kind of
Speaker 4: traffic there was, any any other places around here that
Speaker 4: you did that kind of thing.
Speaker 5: I mean the steak out looking at trail heads or.
Speaker 4: Whatever, knocking out to having the equipment there.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, well there was. I used to go up
Speaker 3: to a Glutna quite a man. Uh yeah, the high
Speaker 3: heads up there. Yeah, the lake and stuff.
Speaker 7: I had.
Speaker 3: I was planning on doing a kayak trip up there eventually.
Speaker 5: Did you have kayaks? Yeah?
Speaker 3: I had a kayak.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Well, let's Kimberley's kayak.
Speaker 5: Uh.
Speaker 3: I would use it quite often. Best thing in the
Speaker 3: lieu of a motor boat. Actually better than a motor boat,
Speaker 3: cause that motor boat, that Bayliner, mind, it broke down
Speaker 3: in the middle of the lake. That was a long
Speaker 3: paddle to get it back to shore. Packs a lot faster, Yeah.
Speaker 4: Especially if it's windy or you have any type of
Speaker 4: weather with that big of a boat.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: So, no other buried treasures you'd like to share with us, No,
Speaker 5: not yet.
Speaker 3: That one wasn't bury treasure.
Speaker 5: I was just feeling bad about leaving it out there.
Speaker 5: You just wanted to clean that.
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's an environmental thing.
Speaker 4: Yeah, cause that means you don't want to give up
Speaker 4: the bucket in Texas.
Speaker 3: No, but if I get close to where it's at
Speaker 3: which is there's not a.
Speaker 12: Tractioning device on it.
Speaker 10: You.
Speaker 3: Uh, No, I have a pretty good memory.
Speaker 5: I could play it pretty good.
Speaker 3: Cash places. I have a good memory when I need to.
Speaker 8: If we came close to where one was, would you
Speaker 8: tell us.
Speaker 5: I don't.
Speaker 3: I don't know what you mean.
Speaker 2: Like if we were able to tell you in Airy
Speaker 2: area that we're pretty sure there's one.
Speaker 5: In, would you tell us, well, I assume you know.
Speaker 3: I've been kind of all over the place when I
Speaker 3: do go places. I don't know what you consider it close?
Speaker 5: Like state coun No, no, no, I mean just deducting
Speaker 5: where things.
Speaker 4: Especially just in Texas, cause we have a little more
Speaker 4: information on specifically where you were at in Texas through
Speaker 4: cell phone towers and those kind of things. Like when
Speaker 4: you left to Dallas to drive to Houston after the
Speaker 4: bank in Azelle, you didn't drive forty five straight to Houston,
Speaker 4: and you had to do something with that money from
Speaker 4: Bazel because when you came back, yeah, had the money
Speaker 4: with you, so you picked it up down there. M
Speaker 4: didn't have it in your suitcase and get all moldy
Speaker 4: and wet.
Speaker 3: Oh that's that was just the small bills.
Speaker 5: So the twenties are still in a bucket place.
Speaker 3: On that route.
Speaker 5: Small bills are a nuisance.
Speaker 3: People. Notice when you pull out a huge water small.
Speaker 4: Bills, and you didn't leave it in the Dallas area
Speaker 4: cause you weren't playing and going back there.
Speaker 5: You knew your mom's gonna be going down to Wells.
Speaker 3: Well the money was moldy because it wasn't really I
Speaker 3: didn't even know if I was gonna go back to
Speaker 3: get it.
Speaker 5: I just I just buried it and figured it. I
Speaker 5: know if I might get back to get it if
Speaker 5: I don't. There was only a few hundred bucks, I think, so.
Speaker 4: So you've only you've only got a bury treasure of
Speaker 4: a few hundred bucks that somebody might find there.
Speaker 3: What in Texas? No, I'm not. I'm saying the money
Speaker 3: it was. It was buried right by the airport because
Speaker 3: I didn't want to risk tsa final carry on asking questions.
Speaker 3: I don't know it would overly paranoid maybe.
Speaker 4: But so then when you flew back down there, you
Speaker 4: only took the small bills back out and left.
Speaker 5: The bigger bills. No, the bigger bills. I kept some
Speaker 5: brooch from the small ones.
Speaker 3: The small one, Yeah, they were just they were just.
Speaker 5: Wrapped up in a bag. I didn't even really dig
Speaker 5: a hole and just stomped the rest.
Speaker 3: Sup went behind a tree, kicked some dirt out of
Speaker 3: the way, dropped the bag in it, kicked some dirt
Speaker 3: over it, then.
Speaker 5: Left and it was still there.
Speaker 13: Yeah, nobody wants to pick up trash.
Speaker 2: One of the things that I wanted to go back
Speaker 2: to was something we were talking about the other day
Speaker 2: and just it's not anything specific, really, but you had mentioned.
Speaker 8: That, and if my timing at the dates are wrong
Speaker 8: in this, let me know.
Speaker 2: But you had mentioned that when you were in the military,
Speaker 2: when you were over in Tel Aviv Uh, you had
Speaker 2: gone to a couple prostitutes there, and that was when
Speaker 2: you were like in your twenties, probably right early twenties.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it was about twenty at the time.
Speaker 8: When did the whole prostitute think come into play for you?
Speaker 8: Was that it?
Speaker 5: Or did Hell?
Speaker 3: Now Montreal?
Speaker 8: So Montreal was before the military?
Speaker 3: Yeah, well I I that's the first time I had
Speaker 3: gone was before.
Speaker 8: I think, can't you've been to Montreal a couple more
Speaker 8: than once then?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 11: So was.
Speaker 5: Jump ahead?
Speaker 8: Now Anchorage is is that it's a proces visiting prostitutes.
Speaker 2: Is that something that you've continue to do over the years,
Speaker 2: including an anchorage?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I've I've done it over the Years'
Speaker 3: do you usually it's something I do all the time?
Speaker 7: Okay?
Speaker 2: Is it something that when you Is it something that
Speaker 2: you use the internet for? Is it something are you
Speaker 2: doing out to the street. I know there's not a
Speaker 2: lot of street walkers anymore, at least up here. There
Speaker 2: are yep.
Speaker 8: Thanks Listing, back Page and a few others.
Speaker 2: But is internet the way that you would usually find
Speaker 2: them or how would you? No?
Speaker 3: That was I mean, really, I've only used computers for
Speaker 3: the last few years. I was always seems like every
Speaker 3: time use computers that get busted so by.
Speaker 5: Somebody who wasn't supposed to see it. So it that
Speaker 5: way you didn't figure out how to clear your history?
Speaker 3: Well I got better at it, but I was still
Speaker 3: paranore about it because it seems like the damn thing
Speaker 3: will always pop up an opportunity.
Speaker 5: Could Kimberly ever see that stuff?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 3: Yeah, she stuff. Yeah, we were together for a long time,
Speaker 3: so she saw. I mean my shirt mistakes.
Speaker 8: Which websites did you use the most? You mentioned Craigslist,
Speaker 8: it's the most popular, I think.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I would use.
Speaker 3: I would use the internet or phone books to get
Speaker 3: lists of phone numbers, and I would rate the phone numbers,
Speaker 3: and then I would just you know, when I got
Speaker 3: to whatever area that I was going to do, and
Speaker 3: then I'd just called down the list of numbers until
Speaker 3: I got a hit on one.
Speaker 8: How would you rate it?
Speaker 5: What was the.
Speaker 3: I would rate it just based on the vibe I
Speaker 3: got off of the ad or the description online. And
Speaker 3: then you know, usually only about twenty five percent of
Speaker 3: the numbers work.
Speaker 5: So right now you know a lot.
Speaker 3: Of different numbers.
Speaker 2: So would you actually call and talk to somebody and
Speaker 2: see what they had to say and that would be
Speaker 2: part of the rating too.
Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, yeah, so with.
Speaker 8: That in mind, the rating thing, tell.
Speaker 5: Me if that's what this say is, did you figured
Speaker 5: it out? I look familiar? Yeah?
Speaker 8: Is that what that is? The one, two, three rating system?
Speaker 2: Cause we know that those are numbers and we know
Speaker 2: what those are numbers too. But okay, that makes sense
Speaker 2: what you're talking about with a rating system. Then did
Speaker 2: you call any of these.
Speaker 5: No?
Speaker 8: I don't think so, cause this was from your trip.
Speaker 5: Well it was in the car.
Speaker 8: It was in the car, so it was on that
Speaker 8: when you're when you were.
Speaker 5: That wasn't a.
Speaker 3: For sure thing. That was just one of those things.
Speaker 5: If I had had the opportunity to go up there,
Speaker 5: I would have done.
Speaker 3: It's not like I was gonna go for sure. And yeah,
Speaker 3: I honestly I probably wasn't going to go because the
Speaker 3: whole you know, there was a lot of bullshit going
Speaker 3: on with my family there at the time, so I
Speaker 3: didn't want to. I just wanted to get out of there,
Speaker 3: and it's kind of wasn't really thinking about any of
Speaker 3: that stuff.
Speaker 4: So you have place Do you have cities or favorite
Speaker 4: or places to go that are the prostitution stuff is
Speaker 4: easier or better or more more of it.
Speaker 3: Vegas or anything like that. No, I don't actually like Vegas,
Speaker 3: but oh I don't know, just tune Gas is very
Speaker 3: predictable with more interesting people in other places.
Speaker 8: You don't seem like a big city person either.
Speaker 3: Only if I have to be in I can get around.
Speaker 3: I Yeah, I prefer more discreet locations.
Speaker 5: But you would visited Montreal a lot when you were
Speaker 5: in upstate New York?
Speaker 4: Is that just cause it was the closest big city
Speaker 4: or yeah.
Speaker 5: I mean anything special attraction to Montreal or Canada or
Speaker 5: oh I I I like Canada's it's predictable.
Speaker 3: And but no, I didn't have like a specific hotel
Speaker 3: or area I would go to. I would just go
Speaker 3: to check it out.
Speaker 8: Did you do in calls or outcalls with the girls
Speaker 8: or with the prostitutes? Did you go to them? Did
Speaker 8: they come to you?
Speaker 3: I wouldn't do it unless they were willing to come
Speaker 3: to me.
Speaker 8: Kay, what would you look for in a person.
Speaker 5: Or what would you be re what would you request?
Speaker 3: It would changed all the time.
Speaker 8: Mkay, you didn't have a preference or.
Speaker 3: Uh, I always had a preference, but it would change
Speaker 3: it every time.
Speaker 5: It was a different preference, something like I had what
Speaker 5: was the preher I was in the mood for at
Speaker 5: the time.
Speaker 2: I guess what was the preference? Cause you you talked
Speaker 2: the other day too that you kind of.
Speaker 8: Have a preference.
Speaker 2: But then it doesn't nothing's really a deal breaker. But
Speaker 2: if there was a preference or kind of an ideal,
Speaker 2: what would it be, Well.
Speaker 5: It depends on the scenario.
Speaker 4: I don't know what you mean, the scenario that you're
Speaker 4: thinking of at the time. Right then, those changed, it's
Speaker 4: what you're saying.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'm not even talking about murders or that
Speaker 2: kind of stuff. I'm I was the prostitutes is were
Speaker 2: more of what I was getting at. I'm not getting
Speaker 2: in that the other stuff that we're talking about the
Speaker 2: other day.
Speaker 3: Well, I'm sure you guys found my corn collection. So
Speaker 3: you know, I have a wide range of tastes and
Speaker 3: it just varies.
Speaker 5: That's the way I am.
Speaker 3: When I go like a year obsessed with one thing
Speaker 3: and then completely drop it, and then the next year
Speaker 3: it's something else.
Speaker 2: And the prostitution thing played that same played along that
Speaker 2: same thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, yeah, I never really took the prostitutes
Speaker 3: that seriously, because.
Speaker 5: I mean I was never.
Speaker 3: I was. I mean I was only calling them because
Speaker 3: they were prostitutes. I wasn't calling them because I was
Speaker 3: thinking I was gonna kill one of them.
Speaker 8: Did you have any regulars?
Speaker 4: No, did the visiting the prostitute? Did that sometimes working
Speaker 4: lieu of or delay or.
Speaker 5: Satisfy you at some point in time. So so yeah, that's.
Speaker 3: You know, it's a good outlet, but it's not the same.
Speaker 3: It's anonymous, and depending on depending on the prostitute, you
Speaker 3: can you know, do a lot of different things.
Speaker 5: So were you?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Were you into more S and M stuff type
Speaker 2: with the prostitutes type stuff with the prostitutes? Sometimes not
Speaker 2: not necessarily the part of it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that wasn't honest the agenda. It's just.
Speaker 2: Could you ever use ropes and that kind of stuff
Speaker 2: with the prostitutes as well or practice any of that
Speaker 2: stuff with them?
Speaker 5: Not?
Speaker 3: Nothing real crazy, but yeah, I mean nothing very elaborate though.
Speaker 2: So it wasn't like you had, you know, your rope
Speaker 2: set up and you would practice on them to make
Speaker 2: sure it worked the way you wanted it to work.
Speaker 8: Kind of thing. Not that elaborate.
Speaker 4: Okay, you freak a few of them out to sell
Speaker 4: that you were talking. You were talking about one the
Speaker 4: other day, I and tel Aviv or somewhere that was
Speaker 4: mad at you for some Yeah, so.
Speaker 3: It was, Yeah, she was pretty mad.
Speaker 5: I don't think.
Speaker 3: I don't think she was scared.
Speaker 5: I think she was just mad at me kind of thing.
Speaker 8: Is she the one that kicked you?
Speaker 3: Yeah, took an extra liberties, but she didn't pay for
Speaker 3: I think she was mostly worried about going over her
Speaker 3: a lot of time or whatever.
Speaker 2: She was.
Speaker 5: She was a pretty small, little Russian girl, and she.
Speaker 3: And I had been drinking, so you know, I kind
Speaker 3: of threw around a little that I hadn't heard her hit
Speaker 3: her or anything, but she I wasn't gonna let her
Speaker 3: run the show, I guess. And yeah, so she was
Speaker 3: a little bit annoyed, and she didn't speaking so.
Speaker 8: H, I would make things a little more than you.
Speaker 14: Didn't speak Russian? So no, did you see?
Speaker 2: I don't know if I asked this before, and I
Speaker 2: don't know if I got off topic or if you
Speaker 2: just didn't answer. Do you to see any prostitutes in Anchorage? M?
Speaker 5: No, don't want to go there?
Speaker 15: Yeah, okay, think so okay, 'h go ahead, you.
Speaker 2: Work one of the things that was on your phone.
Speaker 2: There's a cemetery in Texas. Did you go to a
Speaker 2: cemetery in Texas? What was the cemetery about? One of Glenrose?
Speaker 2: Does that sound right? Yeah?
Speaker 5: I went to a few different cemeteries.
Speaker 8: What could you go to the cemetery for?
Speaker 5: That's a picture?
Speaker 7: What was on your phone?
Speaker 5: That's hut?
Speaker 3: Is that on map quest or something that idea?
Speaker 10: Yeah?
Speaker 8: I think you took a picture of your computer.
Speaker 5: Is what it looks like? You get care of some
Speaker 5: problem with technology depending on it.
Speaker 3: What do you think about it?
Speaker 5: Oh?
Speaker 3: No, I that was mostly I was just looking for
Speaker 3: different places, convenient locations didn't. Yeah, I I went to
Speaker 3: a lot of different places because none of them really
Speaker 3: seemed like they worked out. People were very nosy in Texas,
Speaker 3: so I wasn't there.
Speaker 16: I took me a while to find anywhere. Then I
Speaker 16: felt comfortable. Did you find that place?
Speaker 3: Well, I found a few different I didn't. I didn't
Speaker 3: take anybody on that trip. If that's what you're asking
Speaker 3: I was.
Speaker 5: I was that what I was, That's.
Speaker 3: What the thought process was. I didn't do it.
Speaker 4: But why a cemetery a disposal site, cemetery or abduction.
Speaker 3: Site, not an abduction site. It's somewhere to take somebody, Okay.
Speaker 2: So you'd take the cemeteries out, kind of like you
Speaker 2: talked about staking out some of these other places.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would go. And a lot of those cemeteries
Speaker 3: have a maintenance sheds and stuff that are usually pretty easy.
Speaker 5: To get into, so and pretty remote.
Speaker 8: This one's in the middle of nowhere.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So is that similar to the thought where you were
Speaker 4: saying you were thinking about doing some of this stuff
Speaker 4: in churches, would it have be the same opposite maybe
Speaker 4: doing it in the cemeterys or why just for the
Speaker 4: remote subs are specifically because it's a cemetery.
Speaker 5: Well, it was more.
Speaker 3: I had more to do with the practicality than any
Speaker 3: kind of preference on my part.
Speaker 2: So there was no significance to a cemetery like there
Speaker 2: was to a church, like you had talked about before.
Speaker 5: Not really, I mean I like cemeteries. I don't know
Speaker 5: beyond that, it's not really.
Speaker 2: No real The churches obviously had to do with the
Speaker 2: whole religious peace, but that cemeteries, there was none of
Speaker 2: that for you.
Speaker 8: It was just convenience, remoteness. You like 'em. You're that
Speaker 8: kind of thing.
Speaker 5: Yeah, M like 'em. Why you like the cemeteries? Do
Speaker 5: you think?
Speaker 10: Uh?
Speaker 3: I don't. I don't know.
Speaker 5: I just always have more abid fascination.
Speaker 3: Cemeteries a lot easier to explain your presence there too,
Speaker 3: if someone happens to show.
Speaker 4: Up, so you'd find a stone of someone to pretend
Speaker 4: like you were there to visit.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 3: Easier to explain than something.
Speaker 4: So you're always thinking of that, You're always thinking of
Speaker 4: your what you would say if you were for ask
Speaker 4: about your presence.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, it doesn't always work, so obviously you have
Speaker 3: to have a backup plan. But at least you know,
Speaker 3: like s like you say, cemetery, it's cemetery, campground, something
Speaker 3: like that. Public places easier to explain than prior for property.
Speaker 5: Did you get questioned a lot?
Speaker 8: It kind of sounds like you were pretty good at
Speaker 8: picking places that that wouldn't happen often.
Speaker 5: No, I got.
Speaker 3: I got questioned casually a few times, not and it
Speaker 3: really felt like I was by Pete right, Yeah.
Speaker 4: So did you did you get ever get in a
Speaker 4: position where you were start a conversation with someone that
Speaker 4: you would had thought about doing something and then they
Speaker 4: for whatever reason, you get a vibe from them that
Speaker 4: it wouldn't be a good idea or whenever you are
Speaker 4: you able.
Speaker 17: To make a decision as soon as you see it
Speaker 17: to see the person. No, it always has to be
Speaker 17: I don't know, as soon as someone talks to me
Speaker 17: and its use.
Speaker 5: To me than that's kind of puts on.
Speaker 3: A different spectrum for me. You know, you have to
Speaker 3: take somebody by surprise.
Speaker 5: I don't know why, I just it feels like it's
Speaker 5: like when I start.
Speaker 3: Talking to people, and I go into a different mode,
Speaker 3: like I want to be their friend or something. But
Speaker 3: obviously if I I've already decided to take somebody, then
Speaker 3: I'm not their friend.
Speaker 5: It's but you don't give them that chance either.
Speaker 4: It sound like they have a casual conversation and then
Speaker 4: overtake him or something.
Speaker 5: Do you do that so that there isn't anything personal.
Speaker 3: Up proud, I don't know. I hadn't really thought about it.
Speaker 3: It's just.
Speaker 5: I think we already talked about this.
Speaker 4: But even though you were never questioned by law enforcement
Speaker 4: about why you were ever at any of these places
Speaker 4: or anything.
Speaker 3: Well, like I said, casually by law enforcement, Yeah.
Speaker 4: Like they would see you at a trailhead and just
Speaker 4: right small talk with you, right, Yeah, when you hear
Speaker 4: to fish or you hear to eye, those kinds of things,
Speaker 4: right when you see.
Speaker 5: Your fishing license, right, And I usually had everything.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I always said all that stuff. I honestly a
Speaker 3: lot of times.
Speaker 5: That's what I wasn't like, Yeah, first.
Speaker 3: Far back, because.
Speaker 5: I can remember, you know, that's where.
Speaker 3: I get a lot of the ideas, either fishing or
Speaker 3: out hunting and thinking of them, Yeah, stalk them through
Speaker 3: the woods and see somebody in the woods they don't
Speaker 3: see you can sit there and watch them for a while.
Speaker 3: I can remember doing that sometimes I was like thirteen
Speaker 3: or fourteen years old, thinking you could.
Speaker 4: Just or just the fact that you're able to watch
Speaker 4: them and they don't know you're watching them.
Speaker 3: Right, and then yeah, I don't know, I just that's
Speaker 3: always that was always the most comfortable scenario for me,
Speaker 3: because it's win win situation. They're out hunting or fishing,
Speaker 3: and if the opportunity comes up, then take it.
Speaker 5: If it doesn't, it's not like it's you're out anything.
Speaker 8: You've talked before about you read a lot, and that's
Speaker 8: where you've gotten.
Speaker 2: You've read about a lot of other serial killers and
Speaker 2: reading about other crimes and that kind of stuff.
Speaker 8: Might be a weird question. But who's your favorite?
Speaker 2: We've talked about it, so we're kind of curious, and
Speaker 2: we're curious in who you're going who your favorite is?
Speaker 3: One of my favorite ones haven't been caught yet, so
Speaker 3: I guess.
Speaker 2: That's actually that's actually a good response.
Speaker 8: Okay, of the ones who have been caught that you've
Speaker 8: been able to read about, we'll see who who was right?
Speaker 8: Who was closest for us.
Speaker 3: I don't know. I I favorite, I don't really feel like.
Speaker 5: I didn't.
Speaker 3: I don't if what I've read about him is accurate,
Speaker 3: I don't feel that close to any of them. So
Speaker 3: I guess I identify most or my favorite, if you
Speaker 3: have to put it that way, would be the ones
Speaker 3: that I identify most with.
Speaker 8: That's a fair way to say it.
Speaker 5: I don't know.
Speaker 3: Maybe just going off of what I've read Ted Bundy,
Speaker 3: maybe I don't know because I don't I don't have
Speaker 3: a lot of respect for someone because because of the
Speaker 3: way they lived. I guess I don't know.
Speaker 4: Did you like reading about all of them? But yeah,
Speaker 4: when you start reading about them, when did you realize?
Speaker 4: I mean, did you start reading about them because you
Speaker 4: were curious about you?
Speaker 5: Or did you was it a study guide to sort
Speaker 5: of speak? I mean that might be a weird question too.
Speaker 5: Did you learn things from to do not Do?
Speaker 4: Or was it just curiosity of do you have anything
Speaker 4: in common with them?
Speaker 5: Is that you were looking for? If you think, well,
Speaker 5: the first book I read was.
Speaker 3: I think it was called mind Hunter and it was
Speaker 3: written by an FBI profilers, right, YEA? I read that
Speaker 3: years and years ago, probably when I was fifteen or sixteen,
Speaker 3: and I was, yes, somewhat disturbed by it, just because
Speaker 3: I don't know, it's always been that way. It's always
Speaker 3: felt like I was kind of reading about myself in
Speaker 3: a lot of those books. Not that not that myself
Speaker 3: that everybody knew. But you know, what did that?
Speaker 5: I mean, did that.
Speaker 3: Worry you? Concern you make you think it was? Well?
Speaker 5: At first, it was, like I said, at first, I
Speaker 5: was pretty.
Speaker 3: Conflicted about it.
Speaker 5: And that was all just because of.
Speaker 3: The way I had been raised and stuff, you know,
Speaker 3: and you know, I I grew up with good people.
Speaker 3: I was never you know, everybody's always nice to each
Speaker 3: other and everything's all sunshine and roses, and so that's
Speaker 3: why it was disturbing to me, because it seemed like
Speaker 3: for a long time I.
Speaker 10: Was the.
Speaker 3: I either thought everybody was everybody else was faking it
Speaker 3: and everybody was like me, they just didn't act like it,
Speaker 3: or I figured that I was demon child or whatever.
Speaker 3: I don't know, but I mean, all that went away
Speaker 3: when I was in my twenties. I didn't feel bad
Speaker 3: about it anymore.
Speaker 5: I just you didn't feel bad that you were that
Speaker 5: you've had those thoughts. I knew that most people didn't
Speaker 5: think the way I did.
Speaker 3: By then, I just didn't feel bad about thinking differently at.
Speaker 8: That time, just kind of accepted that that's who you.
Speaker 5: Were, and that's yeah.
Speaker 3: I just.
Speaker 4: You know, so d So you said, Ted Bundy, you
Speaker 4: kind of felt like maybe you had some things in
Speaker 4: you know, or at least in common with or some
Speaker 4: do you know stuff about him do you you study?
Speaker 3: I know that he had a lot of uh he
Speaker 3: was very uh sexually motivated in the stuff that he did.
Speaker 3: And I know that in the last few years he
Speaker 3: had a really hard time controlling himself and separa separating
Speaker 3: his two lives, if you wanna call it that, and
Speaker 3: uh and I also identified with him because.
Speaker 12: It seemed like, uh, he could s he was able
Speaker 12: to separate different.
Speaker 3: Two different aspects or whatever you want to call this personality.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 8: Anything specific about his crimes.
Speaker 18: No, honestly, I am all right, Like.
Speaker 3: I said, I never really from what I've read, you may,
Speaker 3: I never felt that close to any of them, and
Speaker 3: I just saw similarities in all of them.
Speaker 5: I've honestly, I've always kind of.
Speaker 3: Thought of myself as more like the bank robber type,
Speaker 3: except for you know, every once in a while I
Speaker 3: do it because I can get the same adrenaline rush
Speaker 3: off of that kind of thing. Or not even a crobbery,
Speaker 3: you know, anything even like burglary and artisen.
Speaker 10: To a certain extent, So safe to say probably then
Speaker 10: you've done more of those kind of crimes.
Speaker 8: Well yeah, I mean, is that is that a safe
Speaker 8: assumption because.
Speaker 3: A practical crimes too? So, because lots of people do
Speaker 3: those are practical because it's pretty easy to make money
Speaker 3: doing it.
Speaker 2: Did you ever get close to being caught doing any
Speaker 2: of those any arsens or anything.
Speaker 8: Which was arsenal or bank robbery or bankrover.
Speaker 5: I think I got pretty close to them.
Speaker 3: It makes you think that actually it was. It was
Speaker 3: that one that that you guys know about now, that
Speaker 3: one in New York Temper Lake. Yeah, there was. I
Speaker 3: was leaving and there was a car that passed me,
Speaker 3: and I knew it was a detective or somebody because
Speaker 3: they had a.
Speaker 5: They had a visor light.
Speaker 3: Or something on some kind of light. I knew it
Speaker 3: was a cop of some kind anyway, and it wasn't
Speaker 3: like a official patrol car. But I think I think
Speaker 3: there were a couple of people in it, and it
Speaker 3: was windy roads going through the mountains and stuff, and
Speaker 3: kind of on a hunch I was I was thinking, well,
Speaker 3: because this was quite a while after the robbery, I
Speaker 3: was quite a waste from the scene.
Speaker 5: I was thinking, well, just just in case they.
Speaker 3: Cause they have a vehicle description or something, I better
Speaker 3: pull off the road. And there was a campground, and
Speaker 3: I pulled off really quick and kind of kind of
Speaker 3: backed into some trees and just sat there for a
Speaker 3: while and was counting money. And I think I saw
Speaker 3: the same car go back the other way, like it
Speaker 3: might have been looking for me. So I don't know
Speaker 3: if they I don't even know if it was the
Speaker 3: same car. It went by really fast, but it looked
Speaker 3: like it could have been the.
Speaker 5: Same Cary fast like it was trying to catch up
Speaker 5: to you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know for sure if they were, but
Speaker 3: all the same, I think I sat there for quite
Speaker 3: a while, sat there for several hours, and figured by
Speaker 3: then everybody who was gonna be at the scene was
Speaker 3: gonna be there, Like I remember reading about it a
Speaker 3: few days later. They that one really freaked him out
Speaker 3: cause it was such a small town and they like
Speaker 3: locked all the schools and everything, SWAT teams patrolling the
Speaker 3: such streets or whatever. But I, yeah, that was I
Speaker 3: was thinking at the time. I was like, I'm just
Speaker 3: gonna hang out with this campground count money and stuff.
Speaker 3: And he stops files act like I'm fishing And could
Speaker 3: you have fishing with full? I think I did on
Speaker 3: that trip. I don't think I had a license though,
Speaker 3: not for you did take that that though? Yeah?
Speaker 5: Probably?
Speaker 19: But what do you think you were able to and uh,
Speaker 19: and talking about the practical crimes, why do you think
Speaker 19: you were able to get away with so successfully that
Speaker 19: it sounds like you did a lot of bank robberies
Speaker 19: and burglaries.
Speaker 3: And those kind of things. Oh, my days were numbered.
Speaker 3: It's too many freaking video cameras new nays so so
Speaker 3: time's changed. Yeah, it was easy when all you had
Speaker 3: to worry about was fingerprints and witnesses and DNA. That
Speaker 3: stuff's an't pretty easy cause you also.
Speaker 4: Had depending on uh, what you take, Like if you
Speaker 4: commit a burglary, you still have to if it's if
Speaker 4: it's something, if it's not monitored, if it's not money, you.
Speaker 5: Have to sell it or get rid of it or those.
Speaker 4: Kind of things, because you what did you when you
Speaker 4: were doing burglaries those kind of things?
Speaker 5: Did you take them houses? Well, besides people.
Speaker 3: For the most part, I am it's not like I
Speaker 3: needed the money.
Speaker 2: So what was the motivation then for the burglaries if
Speaker 2: it wasn't oh, just.
Speaker 3: For old time's sake?
Speaker 5: Well, you said you get the same thing.
Speaker 4: They s they seem so different, but you describe it
Speaker 4: as kind of the same. The killings to robberies burglaries
Speaker 4: arsens to some degree. I mean, they they s they
Speaker 4: seem so different and far apart, but you seem to
Speaker 4: get some.
Speaker 3: But that's because when I go in to do a burglary,
Speaker 3: I don't go in to do it like most people do.
Speaker 5: I I go.
Speaker 3: In loaded for bear and so to speak, and hoping
Speaker 3: there's gonna be people there. No, not necessarily, just just
Speaker 3: knowing that if something happens, it's you know, it's like
Speaker 3: if I ever got caught in the act doing anything,
Speaker 3: it's I'm not gonna go meekly away in handcuffs or whatever.
Speaker 10: You know.
Speaker 3: I always went ready for whatever.
Speaker 5: I just.
Speaker 8: So, what would your motivation be going in, what would
Speaker 8: you be looking for?
Speaker 5: What would you.
Speaker 20: Uh burglaries, I usually just jewelry and guns small guns,
Speaker 20: smallish so.
Speaker 5: Some of that are some of the guns that you
Speaker 5: still have in places? Those guns? Or did you always
Speaker 5: get rid of those mm?
Speaker 3: No, I didn't get rid of them because I was
Speaker 3: worried about them getting uh tracked.
Speaker 5: So so you keep them, but you don't keep them
Speaker 5: with you so that you're not caught with them.
Speaker 3: So you right, haven't been cash somewhere, and then use
Speaker 3: them when you got you to limitations like five or
Speaker 3: seven years or.
Speaker 5: Something like that. I don't even know, so you wait,
Speaker 5: I can't tell whether that's supposed to be a joke.
Speaker 5: You can you get charged with that, or whether.
Speaker 4: So you hide them from the statue of limitations period
Speaker 4: before you use that.
Speaker 3: Thinks it a lot less likely that they get tracked.
Speaker 8: Was part of the burglary? Similar to similar but different to.
Speaker 2: What you talked about with the wood where you're sitting
Speaker 2: there and you can watch people and they don't know
Speaker 2: you're watching them. Is it similar in the burglary because
Speaker 2: when you're in somebody's house you're going through their stuff.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that same?
Speaker 4: So would it be would you would you try to
Speaker 4: do it to where they would didn't even know what happened,
Speaker 4: or make sure they knew it happened, like I mean
Speaker 4: breaking windows and breaking doors to go in or get
Speaker 4: out somehow.
Speaker 3: And no, it would depend. It would depend on situation.
Speaker 3: I guess more often than not there was usually a
Speaker 3: lot of destruction, but sometimes I wouldn't. Sometimes it would
Speaker 3: just you know, sometimes I wouldn't take anything at all, necessarily,
Speaker 3: maybe a few little things.
Speaker 4: So destruction like damage rather than destruction like looking for
Speaker 4: So because a lot of burgins you go into, all
Speaker 4: the doors are open, all those clothes are on the ground,
Speaker 4: everything's been destroyed looking because I never did that, so
Speaker 4: destroyed to destroy.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you'd like to watch people.
Speaker 2: Did you ever wait in a house to watch people
Speaker 2: or wait and watch people come back to see what
Speaker 2: the reaction would be.
Speaker 3: I would wait in the woods sometimes that was years.
Speaker 2: And years ago now, not wait in the house to
Speaker 2: watch for him to come back.
Speaker 3: Not no, not burglaries, No, that's.
Speaker 8: Getting onto other crimes.
Speaker 2: I'm guessing by that reaction, that's yeah,