Speaker 1: This is a studio both and production.
Speaker 2: Day is July twelve, twenty twelve. Time is ten oh
five am. Case number three oh six A one five
six four two. This will be a meeting with Israel Keys.
Present will be myself and TFO Jeff Bell, just us
today my coffee.
Speaker 3: All right, Well, we have to go through all the
same we're going on.
Speaker 4: I want to make sure, obviously, I have to take
the court round that we didn't interrupt any lawyer meeting
or anything like that when.
Speaker 5: Came over picking this morning.
Speaker 4: No, okay, I'm Whenever you pred your rights, you have
the right to remain stile and understand that, yeah, anything
you say ken will be used against you in the
quarter of law.
Speaker 3: You understand that, yep.
Speaker 4: You have the right to talk to a lawyer and
have him present with you while you're being questioned.
Speaker 5: You understand that, yep.
Speaker 4: If you cannot afford to hire a lawyer, one will
be a point to represent you before and during any
question if you wish to understand that, Yeah, you can
decide at any time to exercise these rods and not
answer any questions or make any statements. You understand that, Yeah,
you understand each of those rights I've explained to you, Yes, Okay.
Also have to remind you that we're here to talk
about to other crimes. If we talk about anything and
nothing to do with Samantha Cone and we can't talk
about Samantha Cone, understand that.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 5: Okay.
Speaker 4: You also have a stand by council, believe Rich Kirdner
and possibly Japlin Walsh.
Speaker 5: Would you like either one of those attorneys present today? Okay?
Speaker 2: I think that's it you Primal Bart, do you forget anything?
You're probably no better than us. One thing I wanted
to do before we jump into anything is I messed
up the other day and I wouldn't well, I just
wasn't as thorough as I should have done. And I
want to add the bolt registration number on here or
I'm just gonna ask so it's clear what Bayliner we're
talking about.
Speaker 6: And then i'll just have you initial it. M. I'm
gonna put the plate number from the trailer.
Speaker 7: Two, today's the twelve, and then i'll just.
Speaker 8: Have your initial buy over there.
Speaker 5: Just that I made the addition.
Speaker 8: With the boat. One thing I wanted to we wanted
to show you was.
Speaker 2: A couple of pictures they had asked I know you
when we talked to you about it before, I wasn't
in here, but I think it was Jeff and Steve
that we're in here. You mentioned that there might be
where there might be something, some blood or something like.
Speaker 3: I didn't know how much at was left.
Speaker 8: I'd answer that question.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, I'd taken it apart.
Speaker 2: But if you can look at these and if you
can see just maybe looking at them, or refresh your
memory about where something might be or.
Speaker 8: You know what what they should look.
Speaker 5: For looking bad shape, does it.
Speaker 3: Considers it's going to be in that ending?
Speaker 2: Well?
Speaker 5: Yeah, where wh where is the top end of the motor.
Speaker 3: On this side?
Speaker 4: Here?
Speaker 3: Anywhere on this side? My guess if you find anything
that's gonna be along these trim pieces, like underneath them
or something, Okay, socause it got it, you know, I
got on the fiberglass. I cleaned it, but I don't
know if I Okay, where's the top end of the moment?
I it probably got junk. I remember, I took it
apart figure out what was wrong with the motor, and
I think by the time I had figured out what
was wrong with that, I decided the whole motor was
gonna be scraped, so I think, yeah.
Speaker 5: I think I just threw it away with all the
parts I took off.
Speaker 2: Anything in the boat, I don't They haven't looked in
any of the stuff yet. You even know what's in here,
what's in the tote or anything.
Speaker 5: Like that would be there.
Speaker 3: I d the tote. I don't remember exactly what's in
the toe. Underneath the toe, there's uh removed bull floor
panel where I used to keep concrete weights and stuff, Okay,
And I would say any ropes or anything that are
in the boat, I don't know one of them is
gonna be like a tow rope for skiing, but there
were I know I had quite a few other ropes
in there as well that I would use for anchor
ropes and tying the boat open stuff.
Speaker 2: So any tools in the boat that you remember that
would we should be looking for.
Speaker 9: Anything else of interest is going to be in either
those side pockets along the sides or in the glove
box that I remember. I think there's there's a lot
of storage compartments.
Speaker 3: All over the boat, so I don't remember what all
is that, but I know that there might be some
knives in the glove box. There might be you know,
miscellane stuff like that. I just kept with the boat
at all times.
Speaker 2: Okay, what we can do, also, if you're interested, is
once they go through it, we'll have pictures of everything
and we can show you that stuff too, if you
if that would be helpful.
Speaker 8: I'm sure it probably be helpful to trying to figure
out what's in all this stuff when you can't see it,
So we could do that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it doesn't look like anyone's been in there at
all since I.
Speaker 5: I was surprised how good the polstery seems like it's
in pretty good condition. Still.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well that was all brand new when I was it.
That whole boat was gutted before I rebuilt it, So.
Speaker 8: Why didn't you So you rebuilt it?
Speaker 5: Like?
Speaker 8: It doesn't look like a nineteen eighty two boat to me,
That's why I was.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, the interior was trashed and I got it,
so it's all new seats and upholstery and everything that
makes sense. And I think I had to replace some
glass and I don't.
Speaker 5: Know, it's the carpeting and all that stuff.
Speaker 3: I had to replaced the carpeting a couple of times,
at least on the back section.
Speaker 2: Is that brand new carpeting on the back section now
or is it doing something that should be looked at?
Speaker 3: Well, you might find stuff under the carpeting, but okay,
there was new carpet and then I got going on it,
so got it?
Speaker 8: Okay, all right, that will be helpful. So do you
want to copy of this? I actually the other day,
but now.
Speaker 2: All right, we had a couple of things, a few
things you wanted to talk to you about today. I
think Jeff mentioned kind of different than what the meetings,
you know, our meetings normally are just some of it's
kind of follow up stuff to what you have talked
about before, just making clarification kind of stuff and just
wrapping some of that stuff up, and then.
Speaker 8: Just a couple of new things. But Loki, nothing's.
Speaker 5: Start with the Eagle River.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you got more photos, just play some familiar.
Speaker 5: Yeah, the stuff was still there. There's more pictures down there.
Speaker 7: A few months.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm sure you saw that big ditch right next
to there.
Speaker 5: Did you dig that ditch or was that there?
Speaker 3: No, that was a burn and that was my plan
was to use that cause it was already dug.
Speaker 5: So I was gonna just have to fill it in.
Speaker 3: Right. There was a there was a big metal plate
down the road that I was gonna use to cover
it once I buried it.
Speaker 5: Keep it from getting dug like a sheet metal. Yeah.
Speaker 3: There was down by that other guy's driveway. There was
a big pile of trash in the woods. There was
a piece of metal that I was gonna use to throw.
Speaker 5: Over it and bury it. I tried to move that would.
Speaker 4: Well, it was thin piece of metal, but there was
lots of it was buried and yeah, ship on it
that like some countertops and stuff in therea and so this,
I mean it's still there, but it's that. That was
this time frame, if I remember right from our interview,
is this.
Speaker 5: Like the May twenty eleven time frame.
Speaker 4: Yeah, prior to just prior to the careers, right and
so and with this thing, I guess I misunderstood when
you were talking about it earlier.
Speaker 3: If you wouldn't mind explain it again, what was the
this was?
Speaker 4: This was this place open, like the gates were open continuously.
There's no snow when you put.
Speaker 5: This in at the park there, Yeah, because it's May.
Sometimes in early May it was open.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Was there snow on the ground, No, No, okay, and
you think it was.
Speaker 3: No, there wasn't much snow that year, but there wasn't
a lot of traffic there. I know I stay for
a couple of nights, but I think there was only
one or two cars that came by.
Speaker 4: Kay And when you staked it out, have you parked
your vehicle there or perfect somewhere else?
Speaker 8: No?
Speaker 3: I parked a vehicle down the road by the nature center,
and then I rode my bike back down. That's why
all that stuff was stashed there ahead of time, cause
I didn't wanna have my car in the area.
Speaker 5: How and how many days or nights or whatever did
you were?
Speaker 3: You guys up there for two or three nights. I
didn't stay all night, just til after.
Speaker 4: Dark, and just there wasn't but much traffic there, so
never an opportunity never arose.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there was only one. There was only one time
that I almost did it, but there was it was
two people, and it would have been a lot of work.
Speaker 5: I kind of changed my mind on that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was.
Speaker 4: And then during this time frame, this is also the
time frame you talked about, uh point warns off for
out in.
Speaker 5: That Harry, right, Yeah, right after you're about the silencer. Yeah,
that was.
Speaker 3: I think I went up Togo River after that incident because,
uh cause a lot of police started around ancor D after.
Speaker 4: Dark, so and the and the time out of the
point warns off. How late was that when that?
Speaker 5: I mean, how was it about eleven o'clock? Was about
eleven o'clock? Yeah? Okay? And you think that was mid help?
Speaker 4: How far before you left for you left on June
third to go to Vermont? How many days or weeks
was that before that?
Speaker 7: Uh?
Speaker 3: It would have been in May some probably mid May?
Speaker 5: And do you know for sure if it was an
APD officer or.
Speaker 3: Was it it was two of them?
Speaker 4: Definitely not airport police.
Speaker 3: No, I'm pretty sure I saw the car. I think
it said it had the big it may it may
have been an airport police if their cars.
Speaker 5: Looked the same, but I don't know. It looked like
an APN me. Do you remember what kind of car
was there other than the police car? What car would
you watch it?
Speaker 3: It was a super station wagon? I think what color?
Navy blue or darker?
Speaker 5: Maybe? Yeah? Are any more of these in Anchorage AIA?
Speaker 10: No?
Speaker 3: Okay?
Speaker 5: And maybe not specifically like this? Is there any underground
I know how sometimes you'd like to be about that.
Questions are not specificate. There's nothing exactly like that. Is
there a five gallon bucket? I might need those again
some day.
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Speaker 5: We just you know, I mean, I know, you don't.
I just don't want somebody else.
Speaker 10: I know.
Speaker 4: In one of our conversations, you made a comment about
how people like buried treasure and somebody somebody might find
one of those some day and think it's their lucky
day and they hit the motherlodes.
Speaker 5: It wouldn't be their lucky day. What's in it?
Speaker 3: Well, different things, but you know, thank money, it's not
it's nothing that will get them into trouble. So no
loaded guns.
Speaker 5: No, I don't. I don't bury him loaded. Thanks, I
don't even think. I usually bury him with the magazines loaded.
Speaker 3: I did that once and then the springs were all
screwed up after that.
Speaker 4: We like buried treasures also, we kind of had fun
with it. So you're looking for something I'll to do
with just kind of off to ask. I mean, it's
not giving up much, but it's something for us to do.
Speaker 8: If you told us that once before. Everybody likes a
barry treasure.
Speaker 3: Why I started burying stuff I was a kid.
Speaker 5: I always used to dream that I'd find buried treasuring.
Speaker 3: Fare Well, if I can't find it, I might as
well create it.
Speaker 8: What about outside of Anchorage?
Speaker 2: Do you have other juice stuff like this outside of
Anchorage anywhere else in Alaska?
Speaker 5: Oh, give us something to do. You guys have lots here.
This week is at more fun.
Speaker 4: Actually, you just want to get out with the in
the world. The weather's so nice up here. We'd like
to spend time outside. Yeah, it is, and you should
all take a field trip.
Speaker 11: Although the mesquitoes were kind of bad, and.
Speaker 4: I I.
Speaker 5: Stuff like that. I normally don't.
Speaker 3: I I only left that stuff there because I was
planning on using eventually. I just I normally don't like
to litter. I didn't really consider that littering, though, cause
I figured i'd be back to bring it.
Speaker 5: Up pretty soon.
Speaker 2: Did you go back to that spot at all after
you put it out there, like between after you left
for the couriers in June to when you got arrested,
Had you been back there to look at that stuff.
Speaker 5: Or to move it or A yeah, I've been back
up there to make sure it was still there or
to do more.
Speaker 3: Not well, was just looking out checking out the area.
I I could tell it was still there just by
driving by. Seems like I could see seems like a
schi Yeah, I remember I looked slowed down and looked
back in the lids and saw the lad a couple
of times. Oh, I didn't figure it would go anywhere
because it wasn't really close to the road, So.
Speaker 5: To stake it out any more times after that?
Speaker 10: Uh?
Speaker 3: Not not officially.
Speaker 9: I just uh would hang out up there for an
hour or.
Speaker 4: Two here and there, just to see what kind of
traffic there was, any any other places around here that
you did that kind of thing.
Speaker 5: I mean the steak out looking at trail heads or.
Speaker 4: Whatever, knocking out to having the equipment there.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, well there was. I used to go up
to a Glutna quite a man. Uh yeah, the high
heads up there. Yeah, the lake and stuff.
Speaker 7: I had.
Speaker 3: I was planning on doing a kayak trip up there eventually.
Speaker 5: Did you have kayaks? Yeah?
Speaker 3: I had a kayak.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Well, let's Kimberley's kayak.
Speaker 5: Uh.
Speaker 3: I would use it quite often. Best thing in the
lieu of a motor boat. Actually better than a motor boat,
cause that motor boat, that Bayliner, mind, it broke down
in the middle of the lake. That was a long
paddle to get it back to shore. Packs a lot faster, Yeah.
Speaker 4: Especially if it's windy or you have any type of
weather with that big of a boat.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: So, no other buried treasures you'd like to share with us, No,
not yet.
Speaker 3: That one wasn't bury treasure.
Speaker 5: I was just feeling bad about leaving it out there.
You just wanted to clean that.
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's an environmental thing.
Speaker 4: Yeah, cause that means you don't want to give up
the bucket in Texas.
Speaker 3: No, but if I get close to where it's at
which is there's not a.
Speaker 12: Tractioning device on it.
Speaker 10: You.
Speaker 3: Uh, No, I have a pretty good memory.
Speaker 5: I could play it pretty good.
Speaker 3: Cash places. I have a good memory when I need to.
Speaker 8: If we came close to where one was, would you
tell us.
Speaker 5: I don't.
Speaker 3: I don't know what you mean.
Speaker 2: Like if we were able to tell you in Airy
area that we're pretty sure there's one.
Speaker 5: In, would you tell us, well, I assume you know.
Speaker 3: I've been kind of all over the place when I
do go places. I don't know what you consider it close?
Speaker 5: Like state coun No, no, no, I mean just deducting
where things.
Speaker 4: Especially just in Texas, cause we have a little more
information on specifically where you were at in Texas through
cell phone towers and those kind of things. Like when
you left to Dallas to drive to Houston after the
bank in Azelle, you didn't drive forty five straight to Houston,
and you had to do something with that money from
Bazel because when you came back, yeah, had the money
with you, so you picked it up down there. M
didn't have it in your suitcase and get all moldy
and wet.
Speaker 3: Oh that's that was just the small bills.
Speaker 5: So the twenties are still in a bucket place.
Speaker 3: On that route.
Speaker 5: Small bills are a nuisance.
Speaker 3: People. Notice when you pull out a huge water small.
Speaker 4: Bills, and you didn't leave it in the Dallas area
cause you weren't playing and going back there.
Speaker 5: You knew your mom's gonna be going down to Wells.
Speaker 3: Well the money was moldy because it wasn't really I
didn't even know if I was gonna go back to
get it.
Speaker 5: I just I just buried it and figured it. I
know if I might get back to get it if
I don't. There was only a few hundred bucks, I think, so.
Speaker 4: So you've only you've only got a bury treasure of
a few hundred bucks that somebody might find there.
Speaker 3: What in Texas? No, I'm not. I'm saying the money
it was. It was buried right by the airport because
I didn't want to risk tsa final carry on asking questions.
I don't know it would overly paranoid maybe.
Speaker 4: But so then when you flew back down there, you
only took the small bills back out and left.
Speaker 5: The bigger bills. No, the bigger bills. I kept some
brooch from the small ones.
Speaker 3: The small one, Yeah, they were just they were just.
Speaker 5: Wrapped up in a bag. I didn't even really dig
a hole and just stomped the rest.
Speaker 3: Sup went behind a tree, kicked some dirt out of
the way, dropped the bag in it, kicked some dirt
over it, then.
Speaker 5: Left and it was still there.
Speaker 13: Yeah, nobody wants to pick up trash.
Speaker 2: One of the things that I wanted to go back
to was something we were talking about the other day
and just it's not anything specific, really, but you had mentioned.
Speaker 8: That, and if my timing at the dates are wrong
in this, let me know.
Speaker 2: But you had mentioned that when you were in the military,
when you were over in Tel Aviv Uh, you had
gone to a couple prostitutes there, and that was when
you were like in your twenties, probably right early twenties.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it was about twenty at the time.
Speaker 8: When did the whole prostitute think come into play for you?
Was that it?
Speaker 5: Or did Hell?
Speaker 3: Now Montreal?
Speaker 8: So Montreal was before the military?
Speaker 3: Yeah, well I I that's the first time I had
gone was before.
Speaker 8: I think, can't you've been to Montreal a couple more
than once then?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 11: So was.
Speaker 5: Jump ahead?
Speaker 8: Now Anchorage is is that it's a proces visiting prostitutes.
Speaker 2: Is that something that you've continue to do over the years,
including an anchorage?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I've I've done it over the Years'
do you usually it's something I do all the time?
Speaker 7: Okay?
Speaker 2: Is it something that when you Is it something that
you use the internet for? Is it something are you
doing out to the street. I know there's not a
lot of street walkers anymore, at least up here. There
are yep.
Speaker 8: Thanks Listing, back Page and a few others.
Speaker 2: But is internet the way that you would usually find
them or how would you? No?
Speaker 3: That was I mean, really, I've only used computers for
the last few years. I was always seems like every
time use computers that get busted so by.
Speaker 5: Somebody who wasn't supposed to see it. So it that
way you didn't figure out how to clear your history?
Speaker 3: Well I got better at it, but I was still
paranore about it because it seems like the damn thing
will always pop up an opportunity.
Speaker 5: Could Kimberly ever see that stuff?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 3: Yeah, she stuff. Yeah, we were together for a long time,
so she saw. I mean my shirt mistakes.
Speaker 8: Which websites did you use the most? You mentioned Craigslist,
it's the most popular, I think.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I would use.
Speaker 3: I would use the internet or phone books to get
lists of phone numbers, and I would rate the phone numbers,
and then I would just you know, when I got
to whatever area that I was going to do, and
then I'd just called down the list of numbers until
I got a hit on one.
Speaker 8: How would you rate it?
Speaker 5: What was the.
Speaker 3: I would rate it just based on the vibe I
got off of the ad or the description online. And
then you know, usually only about twenty five percent of
the numbers work.
Speaker 5: So right now you know a lot.
Speaker 3: Of different numbers.
Speaker 2: So would you actually call and talk to somebody and
see what they had to say and that would be
part of the rating too.
Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, yeah, so with.
Speaker 8: That in mind, the rating thing, tell.
Speaker 5: Me if that's what this say is, did you figured
it out? I look familiar? Yeah?
Speaker 8: Is that what that is? The one, two, three rating system?
Speaker 2: Cause we know that those are numbers and we know
what those are numbers too. But okay, that makes sense
what you're talking about with a rating system. Then did
you call any of these.
Speaker 5: No?
Speaker 8: I don't think so, cause this was from your trip.
Speaker 5: Well it was in the car.
Speaker 8: It was in the car, so it was on that
when you're when you were.
Speaker 5: That wasn't a.
Speaker 3: For sure thing. That was just one of those things.
Speaker 5: If I had had the opportunity to go up there,
I would have done.
Speaker 3: It's not like I was gonna go for sure. And yeah,
I honestly I probably wasn't going to go because the
whole you know, there was a lot of bullshit going
on with my family there at the time, so I
didn't want to. I just wanted to get out of there,
and it's kind of wasn't really thinking about any of
that stuff.
Speaker 4: So you have place Do you have cities or favorite
or places to go that are the prostitution stuff is
easier or better or more more of it.
Speaker 3: Vegas or anything like that. No, I don't actually like Vegas,
but oh I don't know, just tune Gas is very
predictable with more interesting people in other places.
Speaker 8: You don't seem like a big city person either.
Speaker 3: Only if I have to be in I can get around.
I Yeah, I prefer more discreet locations.
Speaker 5: But you would visited Montreal a lot when you were
in upstate New York?
Speaker 4: Is that just cause it was the closest big city
or yeah.
Speaker 5: I mean anything special attraction to Montreal or Canada or
oh I I I like Canada's it's predictable.
Speaker 3: And but no, I didn't have like a specific hotel
or area I would go to. I would just go
to check it out.
Speaker 8: Did you do in calls or outcalls with the girls
or with the prostitutes? Did you go to them? Did
they come to you?
Speaker 3: I wouldn't do it unless they were willing to come
to me.
Speaker 8: Kay, what would you look for in a person.
Speaker 5: Or what would you be re what would you request?
Speaker 3: It would changed all the time.
Speaker 8: Mkay, you didn't have a preference or.
Speaker 3: Uh, I always had a preference, but it would change
it every time.
Speaker 5: It was a different preference, something like I had what
was the preher I was in the mood for at
the time.
Speaker 2: I guess what was the preference? Cause you you talked
the other day too that you kind of.
Speaker 8: Have a preference.
Speaker 2: But then it doesn't nothing's really a deal breaker. But
if there was a preference or kind of an ideal,
what would it be, Well.
Speaker 5: It depends on the scenario.
Speaker 4: I don't know what you mean, the scenario that you're
thinking of at the time. Right then, those changed, it's
what you're saying.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'm not even talking about murders or that
kind of stuff. I'm I was the prostitutes is were
more of what I was getting at. I'm not getting
in that the other stuff that we're talking about the
other day.
Speaker 3: Well, I'm sure you guys found my corn collection. So
you know, I have a wide range of tastes and
it just varies.
Speaker 5: That's the way I am.
Speaker 3: When I go like a year obsessed with one thing
and then completely drop it, and then the next year
it's something else.
Speaker 2: And the prostitution thing played that same played along that
same thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, yeah, I never really took the prostitutes
that seriously, because.
Speaker 5: I mean I was never.
Speaker 3: I was. I mean I was only calling them because
they were prostitutes. I wasn't calling them because I was
thinking I was gonna kill one of them.
Speaker 8: Did you have any regulars?
Speaker 4: No, did the visiting the prostitute? Did that sometimes working
lieu of or delay or.
Speaker 5: Satisfy you at some point in time. So so yeah, that's.
Speaker 3: You know, it's a good outlet, but it's not the same.
It's anonymous, and depending on depending on the prostitute, you
can you know, do a lot of different things.
Speaker 5: So were you?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Were you into more S and M stuff type
with the prostitutes type stuff with the prostitutes? Sometimes not
not necessarily the part of it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that wasn't honest the agenda. It's just.
Speaker 2: Could you ever use ropes and that kind of stuff
with the prostitutes as well or practice any of that
stuff with them?
Speaker 5: Not?
Speaker 3: Nothing real crazy, but yeah, I mean nothing very elaborate though.
Speaker 2: So it wasn't like you had, you know, your rope
set up and you would practice on them to make
sure it worked the way you wanted it to work.
Speaker 8: Kind of thing. Not that elaborate.
Speaker 4: Okay, you freak a few of them out to sell
that you were talking. You were talking about one the
other day, I and tel Aviv or somewhere that was
mad at you for some Yeah, so.
Speaker 3: It was, Yeah, she was pretty mad.
Speaker 5: I don't think.
Speaker 3: I don't think she was scared.
Speaker 5: I think she was just mad at me kind of thing.
Speaker 8: Is she the one that kicked you?
Speaker 3: Yeah, took an extra liberties, but she didn't pay for
I think she was mostly worried about going over her
a lot of time or whatever.
Speaker 2: She was.
Speaker 5: She was a pretty small, little Russian girl, and she.
Speaker 3: And I had been drinking, so you know, I kind
of threw around a little that I hadn't heard her hit
her or anything, but she I wasn't gonna let her
run the show, I guess. And yeah, so she was
a little bit annoyed, and she didn't speaking so.
Speaker 8: H, I would make things a little more than you.
Speaker 14: Didn't speak Russian? So no, did you see?
Speaker 2: I don't know if I asked this before, and I
don't know if I got off topic or if you
just didn't answer. Do you to see any prostitutes in Anchorage? M?
Speaker 5: No, don't want to go there?
Speaker 15: Yeah, okay, think so okay, 'h go ahead, you.
Speaker 2: Work one of the things that was on your phone.
There's a cemetery in Texas. Did you go to a
cemetery in Texas? What was the cemetery about? One of Glenrose?
Does that sound right? Yeah?
Speaker 5: I went to a few different cemeteries.
Speaker 8: What could you go to the cemetery for?
Speaker 5: That's a picture?
Speaker 7: What was on your phone?
Speaker 5: That's hut?
Speaker 3: Is that on map quest or something that idea?
Speaker 10: Yeah?
Speaker 8: I think you took a picture of your computer.
Speaker 5: Is what it looks like? You get care of some
problem with technology depending on it.
Speaker 3: What do you think about it?
Speaker 5: Oh?
Speaker 3: No, I that was mostly I was just looking for
different places, convenient locations didn't. Yeah, I I went to
a lot of different places because none of them really
seemed like they worked out. People were very nosy in Texas,
so I wasn't there.
Speaker 16: I took me a while to find anywhere. Then I
felt comfortable. Did you find that place?
Speaker 3: Well, I found a few different I didn't. I didn't
take anybody on that trip. If that's what you're asking
I was.
Speaker 5: I was that what I was, That's.
Speaker 3: What the thought process was. I didn't do it.
Speaker 4: But why a cemetery a disposal site, cemetery or abduction.
Speaker 3: Site, not an abduction site. It's somewhere to take somebody, Okay.
Speaker 2: So you'd take the cemeteries out, kind of like you
talked about staking out some of these other places.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would go. And a lot of those cemeteries
have a maintenance sheds and stuff that are usually pretty easy.
Speaker 5: To get into, so and pretty remote.
Speaker 8: This one's in the middle of nowhere.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So is that similar to the thought where you were
saying you were thinking about doing some of this stuff
in churches, would it have be the same opposite maybe
doing it in the cemeterys or why just for the
remote subs are specifically because it's a cemetery.
Speaker 5: Well, it was more.
Speaker 3: I had more to do with the practicality than any
kind of preference on my part.
Speaker 2: So there was no significance to a cemetery like there
was to a church, like you had talked about before.
Speaker 5: Not really, I mean I like cemeteries. I don't know
beyond that, it's not really.
Speaker 2: No real The churches obviously had to do with the
whole religious peace, but that cemeteries, there was none of
that for you.
Speaker 8: It was just convenience, remoteness. You like 'em. You're that
kind of thing.
Speaker 5: Yeah, M like 'em. Why you like the cemeteries? Do
you think?
Speaker 10: Uh?
Speaker 3: I don't. I don't know.
Speaker 5: I just always have more abid fascination.
Speaker 3: Cemeteries a lot easier to explain your presence there too,
if someone happens to show.
Speaker 4: Up, so you'd find a stone of someone to pretend
like you were there to visit.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 3: Easier to explain than something.
Speaker 4: So you're always thinking of that, You're always thinking of
your what you would say if you were for ask
about your presence.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, it doesn't always work, so obviously you have
to have a backup plan. But at least you know,
like s like you say, cemetery, it's cemetery, campground, something
like that. Public places easier to explain than prior for property.
Speaker 5: Did you get questioned a lot?
Speaker 8: It kind of sounds like you were pretty good at
picking places that that wouldn't happen often.
Speaker 5: No, I got.
Speaker 3: I got questioned casually a few times, not and it
really felt like I was by Pete right, Yeah.
Speaker 4: So did you did you get ever get in a
position where you were start a conversation with someone that
you would had thought about doing something and then they
for whatever reason, you get a vibe from them that
it wouldn't be a good idea or whenever you are
you able.
Speaker 17: To make a decision as soon as you see it
to see the person. No, it always has to be
I don't know, as soon as someone talks to me
and its use.
Speaker 5: To me than that's kind of puts on.
Speaker 3: A different spectrum for me. You know, you have to
take somebody by surprise.
Speaker 5: I don't know why, I just it feels like it's
like when I start.
Speaker 3: Talking to people, and I go into a different mode,
like I want to be their friend or something. But
obviously if I I've already decided to take somebody, then
I'm not their friend.
Speaker 5: It's but you don't give them that chance either.
Speaker 4: It sound like they have a casual conversation and then
overtake him or something.
Speaker 5: Do you do that so that there isn't anything personal.
Speaker 3: Up proud, I don't know. I hadn't really thought about it.
It's just.
Speaker 5: I think we already talked about this.
Speaker 4: But even though you were never questioned by law enforcement
about why you were ever at any of these places
or anything.
Speaker 3: Well, like I said, casually by law enforcement, Yeah.
Speaker 4: Like they would see you at a trailhead and just
right small talk with you, right, Yeah, when you hear
to fish or you hear to eye, those kinds of things,
right when you see.
Speaker 5: Your fishing license, right, And I usually had everything.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I always said all that stuff. I honestly a
lot of times.
Speaker 5: That's what I wasn't like, Yeah, first.
Speaker 3: Far back, because.
Speaker 5: I can remember, you know, that's where.
Speaker 3: I get a lot of the ideas, either fishing or
out hunting and thinking of them, Yeah, stalk them through
the woods and see somebody in the woods they don't
see you can sit there and watch them for a while.
I can remember doing that sometimes I was like thirteen
or fourteen years old, thinking you could.
Speaker 4: Just or just the fact that you're able to watch
them and they don't know you're watching them.
Speaker 3: Right, and then yeah, I don't know, I just that's
always that was always the most comfortable scenario for me,
because it's win win situation. They're out hunting or fishing,
and if the opportunity comes up, then take it.
Speaker 5: If it doesn't, it's not like it's you're out anything.
Speaker 8: You've talked before about you read a lot, and that's
where you've gotten.
Speaker 2: You've read about a lot of other serial killers and
reading about other crimes and that kind of stuff.
Speaker 8: Might be a weird question. But who's your favorite?
Speaker 2: We've talked about it, so we're kind of curious, and
we're curious in who you're going who your favorite is?
Speaker 3: One of my favorite ones haven't been caught yet, so
I guess.
Speaker 2: That's actually that's actually a good response.
Speaker 8: Okay, of the ones who have been caught that you've
been able to read about, we'll see who who was right?
Who was closest for us.
Speaker 3: I don't know. I I favorite, I don't really feel like.
Speaker 5: I didn't.
Speaker 3: I don't if what I've read about him is accurate,
I don't feel that close to any of them. So
I guess I identify most or my favorite, if you
have to put it that way, would be the ones
that I identify most with.
Speaker 8: That's a fair way to say it.
Speaker 5: I don't know.
Speaker 3: Maybe just going off of what I've read Ted Bundy,
maybe I don't know because I don't I don't have
a lot of respect for someone because because of the
way they lived. I guess I don't know.
Speaker 4: Did you like reading about all of them? But yeah,
when you start reading about them, when did you realize?
I mean, did you start reading about them because you
were curious about you?
Speaker 5: Or did you was it a study guide to sort
of speak? I mean that might be a weird question too.
Did you learn things from to do not Do?
Speaker 4: Or was it just curiosity of do you have anything
in common with them?
Speaker 5: Is that you were looking for? If you think, well,
the first book I read was.
Speaker 3: I think it was called mind Hunter and it was
written by an FBI profilers, right, YEA? I read that
years and years ago, probably when I was fifteen or sixteen,
and I was, yes, somewhat disturbed by it, just because
I don't know, it's always been that way. It's always
felt like I was kind of reading about myself in
a lot of those books. Not that not that myself
that everybody knew. But you know, what did that?
Speaker 5: I mean, did that.
Speaker 3: Worry you? Concern you make you think it was? Well?
Speaker 5: At first, it was, like I said, at first, I
was pretty.
Speaker 3: Conflicted about it.
Speaker 5: And that was all just because of.
Speaker 3: The way I had been raised and stuff, you know,
and you know, I I grew up with good people.
I was never you know, everybody's always nice to each
other and everything's all sunshine and roses, and so that's
why it was disturbing to me, because it seemed like
for a long time I.
Speaker 10: Was the.
Speaker 3: I either thought everybody was everybody else was faking it
and everybody was like me, they just didn't act like it,
or I figured that I was demon child or whatever.
I don't know, but I mean, all that went away
when I was in my twenties. I didn't feel bad
about it anymore.
Speaker 5: I just you didn't feel bad that you were that
you've had those thoughts. I knew that most people didn't
think the way I did.
Speaker 3: By then, I just didn't feel bad about thinking differently at.
Speaker 8: That time, just kind of accepted that that's who you.
Speaker 5: Were, and that's yeah.
Speaker 3: I just.
Speaker 4: You know, so d So you said, Ted Bundy, you
kind of felt like maybe you had some things in
you know, or at least in common with or some
do you know stuff about him do you you study?
Speaker 3: I know that he had a lot of uh he
was very uh sexually motivated in the stuff that he did.
And I know that in the last few years he
had a really hard time controlling himself and separa separating
his two lives, if you wanna call it that, and
uh and I also identified with him because.
Speaker 12: It seemed like, uh, he could s he was able
to separate different.
Speaker 3: Two different aspects or whatever you want to call this personality.
I don't know.
Speaker 8: Anything specific about his crimes.
Speaker 18: No, honestly, I am all right, Like.
Speaker 3: I said, I never really from what I've read, you may,
I never felt that close to any of them, and
I just saw similarities in all of them.
Speaker 5: I've honestly, I've always kind of.
Speaker 3: Thought of myself as more like the bank robber type,
except for you know, every once in a while I
do it because I can get the same adrenaline rush
off of that kind of thing. Or not even a crobbery,
you know, anything even like burglary and artisen.
Speaker 10: To a certain extent, So safe to say probably then
you've done more of those kind of crimes.
Speaker 8: Well yeah, I mean, is that is that a safe
assumption because.
Speaker 3: A practical crimes too? So, because lots of people do
those are practical because it's pretty easy to make money
doing it.
Speaker 2: Did you ever get close to being caught doing any
of those any arsens or anything.
Speaker 8: Which was arsenal or bank robbery or bankrover.
Speaker 5: I think I got pretty close to them.
Speaker 3: It makes you think that actually it was. It was
that one that that you guys know about now, that
one in New York Temper Lake. Yeah, there was. I
was leaving and there was a car that passed me,
and I knew it was a detective or somebody because
they had a.
Speaker 5: They had a visor light.
Speaker 3: Or something on some kind of light. I knew it
was a cop of some kind anyway, and it wasn't
like a official patrol car. But I think I think
there were a couple of people in it, and it
was windy roads going through the mountains and stuff, and
kind of on a hunch I was I was thinking, well,
because this was quite a while after the robbery, I
was quite a waste from the scene.
Speaker 5: I was thinking, well, just just in case they.
Speaker 3: Cause they have a vehicle description or something, I better
pull off the road. And there was a campground, and
I pulled off really quick and kind of kind of
backed into some trees and just sat there for a
while and was counting money. And I think I saw
the same car go back the other way, like it
might have been looking for me. So I don't know
if they I don't even know if it was the
same car. It went by really fast, but it looked
like it could have been the.
Speaker 5: Same Cary fast like it was trying to catch up
to you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know for sure if they were, but
all the same, I think I sat there for quite
a while, sat there for several hours, and figured by
then everybody who was gonna be at the scene was
gonna be there, Like I remember reading about it a
few days later. They that one really freaked him out
cause it was such a small town and they like
locked all the schools and everything, SWAT teams patrolling the
such streets or whatever. But I, yeah, that was I
was thinking at the time. I was like, I'm just
gonna hang out with this campground count money and stuff.
And he stops files act like I'm fishing And could
you have fishing with full? I think I did on
that trip. I don't think I had a license though,
not for you did take that that though? Yeah?
Speaker 5: Probably?
Speaker 19: But what do you think you were able to and uh,
and talking about the practical crimes, why do you think
you were able to get away with so successfully that
it sounds like you did a lot of bank robberies
and burglaries.
Speaker 3: And those kind of things. Oh, my days were numbered.
It's too many freaking video cameras new nays so so
time's changed. Yeah, it was easy when all you had
to worry about was fingerprints and witnesses and DNA. That
stuff's an't pretty easy cause you also.
Speaker 4: Had depending on uh, what you take, Like if you
commit a burglary, you still have to if it's if
it's something, if it's not monitored, if it's not money, you.
Speaker 5: Have to sell it or get rid of it or those.
Speaker 4: Kind of things, because you what did you when you
were doing burglaries those kind of things?
Speaker 5: Did you take them houses? Well, besides people.
Speaker 3: For the most part, I am it's not like I
needed the money.
Speaker 2: So what was the motivation then for the burglaries if
it wasn't oh, just.
Speaker 3: For old time's sake?
Speaker 5: Well, you said you get the same thing.
Speaker 4: They s they seem so different, but you describe it
as kind of the same. The killings to robberies burglaries
arsens to some degree. I mean, they they s they
seem so different and far apart, but you seem to
get some.
Speaker 3: But that's because when I go in to do a burglary,
I don't go in to do it like most people do.
Speaker 5: I I go.
Speaker 3: In loaded for bear and so to speak, and hoping
there's gonna be people there. No, not necessarily, just just
knowing that if something happens, it's you know, it's like
if I ever got caught in the act doing anything,
it's I'm not gonna go meekly away in handcuffs or whatever.
Speaker 10: You know.
Speaker 3: I always went ready for whatever.
Speaker 5: I just.
Speaker 8: So, what would your motivation be going in, what would
you be looking for?
Speaker 5: What would you.
Speaker 20: Uh burglaries, I usually just jewelry and guns small guns,
smallish so.
Speaker 5: Some of that are some of the guns that you
still have in places? Those guns? Or did you always
get rid of those mm?
Speaker 3: No, I didn't get rid of them because I was
worried about them getting uh tracked.
Speaker 5: So so you keep them, but you don't keep them
with you so that you're not caught with them.
Speaker 3: So you right, haven't been cash somewhere, and then use
them when you got you to limitations like five or
seven years or.
Speaker 5: Something like that. I don't even know, so you wait,
I can't tell whether that's supposed to be a joke.
You can you get charged with that, or whether.
Speaker 4: So you hide them from the statue of limitations period
before you use that.
Speaker 3: Thinks it a lot less likely that they get tracked.
Speaker 8: Was part of the burglary? Similar to similar but different to.
Speaker 2: What you talked about with the wood where you're sitting
there and you can watch people and they don't know
you're watching them. Is it similar in the burglary because
when you're in somebody's house you're going through their stuff.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that same?
Speaker 4: So would it be would you would you try to
do it to where they would didn't even know what happened,
or make sure they knew it happened, like I mean
breaking windows and breaking doors to go in or get
out somehow.
Speaker 3: And no, it would depend. It would depend on situation.
I guess more often than not there was usually a
lot of destruction, but sometimes I wouldn't. Sometimes it would
just you know, sometimes I wouldn't take anything at all, necessarily,
maybe a few little things.
Speaker 4: So destruction like damage rather than destruction like looking for
So because a lot of burgins you go into, all
the doors are open, all those clothes are on the ground,
everything's been destroyed looking because I never did that, so
destroyed to destroy.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you'd like to watch people.
Speaker 2: Did you ever wait in a house to watch people
or wait and watch people come back to see what
the reaction would be.
Speaker 3: I would wait in the woods sometimes that was years.
Speaker 2: And years ago now, not wait in the house to
watch for him to come back.
Speaker 3: Not no, not burglaries, No, that's.
Speaker 8: Getting onto other crimes.
Speaker 2: I'm guessing by that reaction, that's yeah,