WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:07.200 Every neighbor got deaf flavor. Somebody saystye them kids, nine 2 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:10.320 three little words. It's dinner time. Head sets down for 3 00:00:10.359 --> 00:00:13.199 some highbrow it's the oil. G we all that smell. 4 00:00:13.800 --> 00:00:16.440 Have you seen ragging? I think he's made a new 5 00:00:16.559 --> 00:00:19.920 sign and tasting up and nine from the menu. 6 00:00:20.600 --> 00:00:23.839 Riv whoever you are, whatever your flavor. 7 00:00:23.839 --> 00:00:30.160 Every neighbor deaf flavor. If somebody said jasteve. 8 00:00:32.240 --> 00:00:35.439 Meaning a light man, it's like this man letting butterfly, 9 00:00:35.560 --> 00:00:36.320 flapping his wings. 10 00:00:36.359 --> 00:00:38.320 Dig down in the forest. Man, it gonna cause the 11 00:00:38.399 --> 00:00:45.600 tree fall, letting five thousand miles away. Man, nobody's seen nobody. 12 00:00:48.079 --> 00:00:50.359 You don't need no man. We don't like you. A 13 00:00:50.799 --> 00:00:53.479 little story and you got like you like that man, 14 00:00:53.679 --> 00:00:54.359 that's the wind. 15 00:00:54.479 --> 00:00:56.679 Man. Don't like you da on pane right. 16 00:00:56.600 --> 00:01:07.159 Now, gonna be letter man. Okay, all right, Andy Edwards, 17 00:01:07.159 --> 00:01:08.760 welcome back to the jay Burd and show how you doing. 18 00:01:08.799 --> 00:01:13.159 Man good. I'm so glad to be here. Thank you. Yeah. 19 00:01:13.200 --> 00:01:14.519 So this is going to be a little bit of 20 00:01:14.560 --> 00:01:18.200 a departure for you and I. The previous one was 21 00:01:18.239 --> 00:01:21.879 obviously talking about your book, and while I have finished 22 00:01:22.840 --> 00:01:24.760 The King of Dogs and we will be talking about 23 00:01:24.760 --> 00:01:27.200 it at least at some point in the future. Figured 24 00:01:27.239 --> 00:01:29.760 it might be fun to do some media analysis. Been 25 00:01:29.760 --> 00:01:32.120 on a little bit of a kick, you know, talking 26 00:01:32.159 --> 00:01:37.560 about different films, different books, franchises, even largely because politics 27 00:01:37.640 --> 00:01:40.200 is depressing and there's sort of a limited amount to say, 28 00:01:40.280 --> 00:01:42.840 and when you put out five shows a week, you know, 29 00:01:42.879 --> 00:01:45.560 it's nice to freshen things up. But when I reached 30 00:01:45.560 --> 00:01:48.120 out to you about this idea, you gave me a 31 00:01:48.159 --> 00:01:52.159 really excellent list of films, including one of my all 32 00:01:52.200 --> 00:01:56.400 time favorites, No Country for Old Men, obviously based on 33 00:01:56.719 --> 00:02:00.319 a book by Cormick McCarthy that is also very very good. 34 00:02:00.680 --> 00:02:02.359 I think it was the first thing I read by him, 35 00:02:02.359 --> 00:02:05.079 if I'm not mistaken, a very long time ago. So 36 00:02:05.120 --> 00:02:07.719 the book is worth your time. It's easy to read, 37 00:02:07.760 --> 00:02:12.240 but we will primarily be focusing on the movie. So 38 00:02:12.400 --> 00:02:14.719 I'll throw it to you Andy to sort of introduce 39 00:02:14.759 --> 00:02:16.120 the film and we can take it from there. 40 00:02:17.199 --> 00:02:22.039 Okay, Like you, I read the book many many years 41 00:02:22.039 --> 00:02:26.120 ago when it first came out, and by the time 42 00:02:26.360 --> 00:02:30.319 the film came out it wasn't that it was maybe 43 00:02:30.360 --> 00:02:34.479 a couple of years later. I remember being shocked at 44 00:02:34.639 --> 00:02:38.479 how because there was always at that point in time, 45 00:02:39.240 --> 00:02:45.360 the idea that some of McCarthy's work was unfilmable Blood 46 00:02:45.400 --> 00:02:49.639 Meridian in particular, the Crossing even you know, the middle 47 00:02:49.639 --> 00:02:52.439 book in the in the Border trilogy is kind of 48 00:02:52.479 --> 00:02:56.680 in that ensue tree. This idea that some of his 49 00:02:56.759 --> 00:03:01.719 stuff was unfilmable seemed to be rigid, kind of lodged 50 00:03:01.840 --> 00:03:06.520 in the consciousness. And I mean the book itself was 51 00:03:06.599 --> 00:03:09.599 kind of a shock. That was when he switched from 52 00:03:09.800 --> 00:03:14.280 his very ornate, you know, four to five hundred page 53 00:03:14.319 --> 00:03:18.080 book routine, and he just went for this slim down 54 00:03:19.639 --> 00:03:23.199 I think, you know, that's coming in three hundred pages, 55 00:03:23.280 --> 00:03:26.439 and then the road is right around there, and then 56 00:03:26.560 --> 00:03:30.639 you know, his final books are similarly sort of truncated. 57 00:03:32.199 --> 00:03:34.560 So the book itself was kind of a shock. I 58 00:03:34.599 --> 00:03:40.879 remember just thinking, wow, like what happened here? And then 59 00:03:40.919 --> 00:03:43.800 the movie came out and it was perfect. It's as 60 00:03:43.840 --> 00:03:47.120 we said earlier. I think for a lot of us, 61 00:03:47.719 --> 00:03:50.520 you know, this is like a top five, top three, 62 00:03:50.560 --> 00:03:55.680 maybe the best movie ever made. And the backstory, you know, 63 00:03:56.319 --> 00:04:00.879 how how does that all happen? How does agree literary 64 00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:07.599 work come into into the hands of you know, I 65 00:04:07.639 --> 00:04:10.800 think great directors. They made some other good movies. We 66 00:04:10.879 --> 00:04:14.919 both agree on this point as well, that No Country 67 00:04:14.919 --> 00:04:17.600 for Old Men is probably the Coen Brother's best movie, 68 00:04:18.319 --> 00:04:20.600 but other people would disagree with us. You know, they 69 00:04:20.639 --> 00:04:23.240 have a ton I mean even Big Lebowski, like it's 70 00:04:23.240 --> 00:04:25.319 a classic. I love it. I refer to it all 71 00:04:25.360 --> 00:04:25.800 the time. 72 00:04:26.879 --> 00:04:30.160 But oh, look like I'm a I'm a Hail Caesar enjoyer. 73 00:04:30.360 --> 00:04:33.680 So I wod bit my taste of the Coen Brothers 74 00:04:33.720 --> 00:04:37.120 is not exactly unimpeachable. Yeah, your point being right. Sorry 75 00:04:37.120 --> 00:04:40.680 not to interrupt, but no, they have produced a great 76 00:04:40.800 --> 00:04:43.920 number of films right which are considered classics. But sorry, 77 00:04:43.959 --> 00:04:45.040 I'll throw it back to you. 78 00:04:45.040 --> 00:04:47.000 No, that's a great point. I mean, it isn't like 79 00:04:47.040 --> 00:04:51.600 we're just talking about some fly by Night one hit 80 00:04:51.639 --> 00:04:55.399 wonder types. This is their greatest movie, and they're gonna 81 00:04:55.439 --> 00:04:59.439 go down as you know all timers. I mean, they 82 00:04:59.439 --> 00:05:04.759 wou and they probably deserve it. Maybe we keep We 83 00:05:04.800 --> 00:05:06.439 could touch on the Cones now if you want. I 84 00:05:06.480 --> 00:05:12.800 mean they have a number of sorry about the dog Riker, 85 00:05:14.199 --> 00:05:19.160 the they have a number of cult classics, sorts of 86 00:05:19.160 --> 00:05:24.920 of films. Miller's Crossing is when when that I remember 87 00:05:25.279 --> 00:05:29.639 seeing that with my dad. It was kind of controversial, 88 00:05:29.720 --> 00:05:32.319 but over time a lot of people will say that's 89 00:05:32.399 --> 00:05:34.480 their best movie, and I have come to love that 90 00:05:34.519 --> 00:05:38.439 one myself. Big Lebowski, we touched on. They had their 91 00:05:38.560 --> 00:05:43.560 very first one Blood Simple I believe it's called This 92 00:05:43.600 --> 00:05:47.680 is a this if you guys haven't seen this movie, 93 00:05:47.959 --> 00:05:50.480 this is how they made their their bones. And the 94 00:05:50.560 --> 00:05:55.079 interesting part is that it's sort of a gritty, new 95 00:05:55.199 --> 00:06:01.560 er Western set in Texas, which is striking because that's 96 00:06:01.560 --> 00:06:03.720 where they start and in many ways for me, I 97 00:06:04.600 --> 00:06:07.399 sort of checked out on the Cohens after No Country 98 00:06:07.480 --> 00:06:10.360 for Old Men. I haven't seen most of their later catalog, 99 00:06:12.000 --> 00:06:15.800 but they come back to Texas and this gritty, new 100 00:06:15.959 --> 00:06:20.920 er sort of feel, you know, at a level far 101 00:06:21.040 --> 00:06:26.240 surpassing their early stuff. So I guess what I'm saying 102 00:06:26.279 --> 00:06:31.560 is that the fact that this great work from McCarthy 103 00:06:31.600 --> 00:06:34.040 winds up in the hands of these guys really at 104 00:06:34.040 --> 00:06:37.720 the peak of their powers, and Hollywood too, was sort 105 00:06:37.720 --> 00:06:40.920 of about to make a like a turn for the worst. 106 00:06:40.959 --> 00:06:42.839 You know this was correct me if I'm wrong, But 107 00:06:42.920 --> 00:06:44.639 this is like two thousand and eight, two thousand and 108 00:06:44.720 --> 00:06:50.279 nine ish somewhere. Yeah, So you know, the proverbial shit 109 00:06:50.399 --> 00:06:54.240 is hitting the fan for American culture pretty hard about 110 00:06:54.240 --> 00:06:57.519 that point, and I think Hollywood power sort of begins 111 00:06:57.560 --> 00:07:04.160 to well, it's peaked, probably, so then you have these 112 00:07:04.199 --> 00:07:08.560 other weird, you know or maybe just serendipitous, sort of 113 00:07:09.360 --> 00:07:14.600 auspicious inclusions into the story, like the fact that Josh 114 00:07:14.600 --> 00:07:21.360 Brolin winds up being at McCarthy's deathbed, you know, fifteen 115 00:07:21.439 --> 00:07:24.120 or some years later. How does that happen? How does 116 00:07:24.160 --> 00:07:31.439 a guy like McCarthy who again kind of pre explosion 117 00:07:31.560 --> 00:07:35.079 into the consciousness of how good and important McCarthy is 118 00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:42.240 or was going back like late nineties. His reclusive nature 119 00:07:42.839 --> 00:07:46.519 was the legend of it, right, Maybe not the reality, 120 00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:50.839 but the legend was was beyond Pinchon or any of 121 00:07:50.839 --> 00:07:56.040 the other like American reclusive novelists. It was profound, like 122 00:07:56.120 --> 00:08:00.199 people even then were going to Elpaso to try to 123 00:08:00.240 --> 00:08:02.759 find him. They couldn't find him. And it turned out later, 124 00:08:02.839 --> 00:08:05.560 of course, none of this was really that true. He 125 00:08:05.560 --> 00:08:10.399 he just kind of avoided it, but he seemed to 126 00:08:10.519 --> 00:08:14.439 at that time sort of distance himself from things like 127 00:08:15.639 --> 00:08:19.720 big budgets, Hollywood, anything that's sort of smacked of the 128 00:08:19.759 --> 00:08:24.399 inauthentic or glamor or anything that would be tempting. And 129 00:08:24.439 --> 00:08:28.079 then you know, I think he changed his tune or 130 00:08:28.079 --> 00:08:32.720 we misinterpreted it early on, but then he comes around 131 00:08:32.759 --> 00:08:34.960 to have some sort of and I don't know the 132 00:08:35.039 --> 00:08:39.240 details necessarily, but clearly Josh Brolin, who is like Hollywood 133 00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:44.200 royalty of one sort or another, winds up being really 134 00:08:44.240 --> 00:08:48.240 important to Cormac McCarthy. And this is a bizarre, a 135 00:08:48.320 --> 00:08:51.919 bizarre turn of events to me. I noticed as well. 136 00:08:51.960 --> 00:08:53.240 This is just a side note. I want to throw 137 00:08:53.279 --> 00:08:56.120 it back to you as as I was watching the 138 00:08:57.960 --> 00:09:02.639 movie last week, the scene where they go to the 139 00:09:02.679 --> 00:09:06.720 hotel and they kind of, you know, he and Sugar, 140 00:09:07.159 --> 00:09:11.559 Moss and Sugar have this incredible shootout in the hotel. 141 00:09:13.600 --> 00:09:16.759 The way that it's uncanny. I mean, people should go 142 00:09:16.879 --> 00:09:20.320 back and maybe check this out. But as Brolin, the 143 00:09:20.360 --> 00:09:25.720 Brolin character is kind of taking cover as he's you know, 144 00:09:25.759 --> 00:09:30.799 being fired upon by this you know, the what's well say, 145 00:09:31.679 --> 00:09:34.200 you know, one of the most dangerous things on the planet. 146 00:09:34.840 --> 00:09:34.960 Uh. 147 00:09:35.759 --> 00:09:39.000 The way that the Kohen brothers have framed his face, 148 00:09:40.519 --> 00:09:43.759 it can't be a coincidence that this is the way 149 00:09:43.799 --> 00:09:47.360 his hair hangs. The mustache. There are pictures of McCarthy 150 00:09:47.480 --> 00:09:51.440 himself at an earlier, probably about that same age, forty ish. 151 00:09:51.840 --> 00:09:56.279 I'm not sure it looks exactly like McCarthy, which is 152 00:09:56.279 --> 00:09:58.720 odd because you know, if you stand these two guys together, 153 00:09:58.759 --> 00:10:03.360 they're very different, maybe not that different, But there are 154 00:10:03.399 --> 00:10:08.720 these internal echoes happening within this work in total that 155 00:10:09.559 --> 00:10:11.080 you know, what do you say about it? Is it 156 00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:14.720 real Hollywood magic? I tend to think maybe something like 157 00:10:14.759 --> 00:10:17.320 that is at play when when it all works out, 158 00:10:17.440 --> 00:10:20.039 you know, when we when we get a movie this good, 159 00:10:20.320 --> 00:10:24.000 when every almost everything else for the twenty years before 160 00:10:24.039 --> 00:10:26.759 that and the twenty years after it, you know, I'd 161 00:10:26.919 --> 00:10:29.000 kind of like take it or leave it in many ways. 162 00:10:29.240 --> 00:10:32.039 But anyway me rambling, let me throw it back to you. 163 00:10:34.120 --> 00:10:37.240 Yeah, So there are several things there, you know, the 164 00:10:37.279 --> 00:10:40.200 mythos around Cormack McCarthy. A lot of this came out 165 00:10:40.440 --> 00:10:42.759 after he died fairly recently. You know, there were a 166 00:10:42.799 --> 00:10:46.399 lot of people remembering him and to your point about 167 00:10:46.399 --> 00:10:50.279 his his sort of tendency to shun the spotlight. He 168 00:10:50.360 --> 00:10:52.799 went through a couple of different marriages, and I can't 169 00:10:52.840 --> 00:10:56.440 remember which wife it was was remembering him and basically 170 00:10:56.519 --> 00:11:00.519 said like he would get letters from universities forering him 171 00:11:00.519 --> 00:11:04.000 ten fifteen thousand dollars to appear to speak, just to 172 00:11:04.039 --> 00:11:06.600 be present, and he wouldn't even read them, and just 173 00:11:06.639 --> 00:11:09.200 tear them up and throw them out. And he lived 174 00:11:09.320 --> 00:11:11.480 at least for a large portion of his life in 175 00:11:11.559 --> 00:11:15.840 a unheated shack in the middle of nowhere without running water, 176 00:11:16.679 --> 00:11:20.440 infamously eight you know, rice and beans almost constantly, which, 177 00:11:20.480 --> 00:11:22.799 as you can imagine, it was sort of hard on 178 00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:26.759 marriages to put it mildly and see, it is very 179 00:11:26.879 --> 00:11:31.720 much unexpected. You know that he went from this kind 180 00:11:31.720 --> 00:11:35.480 of famous recluse to a major Hollywood production with you know, 181 00:11:35.519 --> 00:11:38.600 a great number of famous actors in it. It's not 182 00:11:38.600 --> 00:11:41.519 necessarily a superstar studded cast. It's not like you know 183 00:11:42.399 --> 00:11:44.879 the Rock or you know, Brad pitt is in this movie. 184 00:11:44.879 --> 00:11:47.600 But still like these are famous actors you've seen before. 185 00:11:49.240 --> 00:11:53.000 And additionally, going back to this film, I hadn't watched 186 00:11:53.000 --> 00:11:54.759 it in a couple of years. I was struck by 187 00:11:54.759 --> 00:11:57.440 how oddly it's paced. And when I say odd, I 188 00:11:57.440 --> 00:12:00.919 don't mean bad. But you can very very much imagine, 189 00:12:01.080 --> 00:12:03.159 you know, some producer saying, no, this is all wrong. 190 00:12:03.559 --> 00:12:07.279 You know the the you know, the big climactic shootout 191 00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:10.080 with you know, Llewellyn at the end where he dies 192 00:12:10.120 --> 00:12:14.720 spoiler alert sorry is off screen, it's not shown. We 193 00:12:14.840 --> 00:12:18.960 see that through in the eyes of the eyes of 194 00:12:19.480 --> 00:12:23.799 Sheriff Wells right as he you know, walks in or sorry, 195 00:12:23.799 --> 00:12:27.480 not Sheriff Wells. Well Well, what's the name of Sheriff Bell? 196 00:12:27.519 --> 00:12:33.240 Excuse me? H? And our main character up to this 197 00:12:33.279 --> 00:12:36.080 point is just dead on the ground, you know. It's 198 00:12:36.080 --> 00:12:39.559 a very And the film continues for a good bit 199 00:12:39.679 --> 00:12:42.840 after that, right, this climactic event, and you could see 200 00:12:42.840 --> 00:12:44.840 over and over again there are moments where, you know, 201 00:12:44.879 --> 00:12:47.360 this imaginary producer would say, don't do it like that. 202 00:12:47.799 --> 00:12:49.600 You know, that's not how you make, you know, a 203 00:12:49.600 --> 00:12:53.799 blockbuster film. And that's true, right, this isn't really, you know, 204 00:12:53.840 --> 00:12:57.600 like a blockbuster crime film, but it's it's incredibly unique. 205 00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:00.519 There's nothing else I've seen like it for any number 206 00:13:00.600 --> 00:13:03.960 of reasons. So zooming out a little bit just for 207 00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:05.919 those who haven't read the book or seen the movie 208 00:13:06.279 --> 00:13:08.960 one you should. It's not hard to find. But the 209 00:13:09.720 --> 00:13:13.080 broad beat to this plot is that Llewellyn, who's sort 210 00:13:13.080 --> 00:13:18.200 of a welder, is out poaching antelope basically and shoots 211 00:13:18.200 --> 00:13:21.480 an antelope and it, you know, runs off, and when 212 00:13:21.480 --> 00:13:24.639 he finds the blood trail, he realizes there's two blood 213 00:13:24.639 --> 00:13:27.639 trails crossed, which is a great shot. And so he 214 00:13:27.679 --> 00:13:30.679 looks to one side and sees the antelope running off, 215 00:13:30.720 --> 00:13:34.200 and on the other he sees a pit bull, you know, 216 00:13:34.320 --> 00:13:38.240 kind of hobbling off wounded into the desert. He follows 217 00:13:38.279 --> 00:13:42.960 the blood trail the other direction and finds a cartel shootout, right, 218 00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:45.840 a deal gone wrong, a number of dead men, one 219 00:13:46.480 --> 00:13:50.559 clinging onto life, dogs all shot with you know, a 220 00:13:50.600 --> 00:13:55.120 truck bed full of I think heroin, and a little 221 00:13:55.159 --> 00:13:59.320 bit further down the line he finds satchel full of money. Right, 222 00:13:59.360 --> 00:14:03.559 this becomes sort of inciting motivation to the plot. Now, 223 00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:06.080 what's interesting, and I'll kick this back to you Andy, 224 00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:09.799 is when he's first there, he sees, you know, one 225 00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:13.519 of the cartel men, I am still alive, asked for water. 226 00:14:13.799 --> 00:14:17.360 He doesn't have water, and he just leaps takes the money, 227 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:21.039 takes a few guns, goes back to his trailer, hides 228 00:14:21.080 --> 00:14:24.120 them both. But we see, you know, he has this 229 00:14:24.159 --> 00:14:26.679 interaction with his wife which is kind of funny, and 230 00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:30.360 then he's kept up at night. He can't stand to 231 00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:33.720 see to leave this guy out in the desert dying 232 00:14:33.879 --> 00:14:36.600 without water. So in the middle of the night he 233 00:14:36.639 --> 00:14:40.159 goes back. When he goes there, this man has been 234 00:14:40.399 --> 00:14:44.799 blown away, right, his head is basically missing, and there 235 00:14:44.840 --> 00:14:50.039 are cartel members on their trail, assumingly looking for their money. 236 00:14:51.320 --> 00:14:54.120 He's forced to flee, and this is what sort of 237 00:14:54.159 --> 00:14:58.080 incites the plot, right, there are different people looking for 238 00:14:59.039 --> 00:15:03.120 Llewellyn character. He has the money. So I'm curious, what 239 00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:07.120 do you make of the fact that sort of this 240 00:15:07.120 --> 00:15:09.720 this inciting incident when they get on his trail they 241 00:15:09.799 --> 00:15:12.159 find out his identity because of his car. 242 00:15:12.240 --> 00:15:14.320 Is there sort of. 243 00:15:14.240 --> 00:15:18.840 Being the result of him doing a good deed because 244 00:15:18.879 --> 00:15:22.039 oftentimes when people talk about this, they reference the fact 245 00:15:22.120 --> 00:15:26.399 that in this world, kindness is not repaid, and the 246 00:15:26.519 --> 00:15:29.960 kindness of in going back to this man is ultimately 247 00:15:30.360 --> 00:15:32.600 what dooms him. Obviously, you know, there is a we 248 00:15:32.639 --> 00:15:35.039 find out later there is a tracking device in this money. 249 00:15:35.399 --> 00:15:38.039 But still the fact that they know who he is, 250 00:15:38.159 --> 00:15:40.720 his name, his identity, which later you know leads to 251 00:15:40.720 --> 00:15:43.039 the action of the film, is directly due to the 252 00:15:43.039 --> 00:15:46.799 fact that he went back for this man, this narco, 253 00:15:46.960 --> 00:15:49.639 And you know, in an act of mercy and is 254 00:15:49.879 --> 00:15:51.240 punished for it. So what do you make of that? 255 00:15:51.279 --> 00:15:56.799 Andy? Yeah, this is this is a ponderable thing. And 256 00:15:56.840 --> 00:16:02.759 I've sat, like, I guess us in awe or envy 257 00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:09.440 of the simplicity of the setup here. I like I 258 00:16:09.480 --> 00:16:15.879 would sit around and ask myself what similar ideas could 259 00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:19.039 I come up with as a writer or you know, 260 00:16:19.720 --> 00:16:24.759 a screenwriter that are this just clean where you have 261 00:16:24.840 --> 00:16:33.720 this moral conundrum built in and it just so seamlessly 262 00:16:33.799 --> 00:16:39.080 perfectly fits with all these resulting plot elements. Because you're right, 263 00:16:39.279 --> 00:16:43.879 if Moss doesn't make this choice, if he isn't driven, 264 00:16:44.240 --> 00:16:46.960 literally he's kept up at night. He leaves his wife, 265 00:16:47.039 --> 00:16:50.559 he tells her, you know. She asks, where you're going. 266 00:16:50.600 --> 00:16:53.840 I'm going to do something dumber in hell, I think, 267 00:16:53.879 --> 00:16:58.039 he says. But I'm going to do it anyway, And 268 00:16:58.080 --> 00:17:02.000 he mentions his mom. Know, he says to his wife 269 00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:04.000 as he leaves. If I don't come back, tell mom 270 00:17:04.039 --> 00:17:09.000 my lover, llewell, and your mama's dead. Okay, I'll tell 271 00:17:09.039 --> 00:17:12.559 her myself then. And I think that what he's doing 272 00:17:12.880 --> 00:17:19.880 is amazing, but it's in its simplicity, like he's McCarthy 273 00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:23.599 I'm talking about here. But obviously the Cohens are getting 274 00:17:23.599 --> 00:17:26.640 this as well. He's taking Moraley and just yoking it 275 00:17:26.720 --> 00:17:31.640 right to this generally. Can you know it's considered like 276 00:17:31.839 --> 00:17:35.680 our mothers are the first conscience that we have, and 277 00:17:35.759 --> 00:17:39.559 this is kind of what is emplaced into the child 278 00:17:39.640 --> 00:17:43.359 as right or wrong. And from here, you know, McCarthy 279 00:17:43.519 --> 00:17:46.480 uses this to bring up all these questions about things 280 00:17:46.519 --> 00:17:54.200 like predetermination, free will, fate. Because he then uses our 281 00:17:54.279 --> 00:17:59.240 foil character of Anton shagor who himself is, we find 282 00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:01.960 out we should talk about this too, of course, is 283 00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:06.880 he is running on some sort of a code where 284 00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:12.000 choices are incredibly simple, they're not debate. He doesn't debate them. 285 00:18:12.759 --> 00:18:15.000 It's the people that he has to deal with who 286 00:18:15.039 --> 00:18:18.400 want to debate about right and wrong. He and we 287 00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:20.680 call this the course of sociopath or what have you. 288 00:18:21.880 --> 00:18:25.279 And and that spins off into that next layer that's 289 00:18:25.319 --> 00:18:30.759 so stunning and like perfect about this book is the 290 00:18:30.920 --> 00:18:38.200 law element. You know in Sheriff Bell, he's later asking himself, 291 00:18:39.200 --> 00:18:42.200 can I even handle this? What is this thing that 292 00:18:42.359 --> 00:18:46.920 operates on some other code? And I'll add one more 293 00:18:47.000 --> 00:18:49.960 thing that because you know, a book like this, it's 294 00:18:50.039 --> 00:18:53.279 deceptive in its simplicity and that's why I said earlier, 295 00:18:53.319 --> 00:18:56.599 I still find myself sitting around like a guy. Is 296 00:18:56.640 --> 00:19:01.279 an idea this full of Jews that's just so simple 297 00:19:01.319 --> 00:19:04.160 ever going to like drop into my mind and I 298 00:19:04.200 --> 00:19:08.319 you know, I'll keep looking, but it's it's exquisite and 299 00:19:08.359 --> 00:19:14.720 it's super rare. And so this last element you have 300 00:19:16.880 --> 00:19:23.319 Bell again asking himself, what is what is this entity 301 00:19:23.519 --> 00:19:27.160 or this type of the mentality that I and he decides, 302 00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:30.200 of course, like he's not sufficient to the task, and 303 00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:33.160 he has this incredible conversation with his uncle that takes 304 00:19:33.200 --> 00:19:36.279 it back into history. And so now McCarthy has like 305 00:19:36.440 --> 00:19:41.079 tied this book to the Border trilogy and he's sort 306 00:19:41.079 --> 00:19:44.559 of made this cultural commentary that guys such as yourself 307 00:19:44.599 --> 00:19:49.480 and I in this particular space are are asking right now, 308 00:19:50.000 --> 00:19:53.880 what is Western civilization or whatever, you know, whatever you 309 00:19:53.880 --> 00:19:59.400 want to call it? Law order? Is this is this 310 00:19:59.559 --> 00:20:02.160 like an I identity issue? And it you know, we 311 00:20:02.240 --> 00:20:04.319 know the answer like it kind of is. We've tried 312 00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:06.480 to work this out in many different ways, whether it's 313 00:20:08.880 --> 00:20:14.400 we just slaughter everybody, we do colonialism, we do you know, liberalism, 314 00:20:14.480 --> 00:20:18.640 or what have you. And you know, McCarthy's not going 315 00:20:18.680 --> 00:20:21.759 to give us an answer, and nine out of ten 316 00:20:21.799 --> 00:20:24.200 people who watch this movie aren't going to ask that 317 00:20:24.359 --> 00:20:27.319 question or even see that McCarthy's posing it in that way. 318 00:20:28.160 --> 00:20:33.640 But to my lights anyway, establishing the story at the border, 319 00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:38.160 you know, this line that is somewhat imaginary, that does 320 00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:43.400 kind of require adherence to, if you will, a sort 321 00:20:43.400 --> 00:20:48.000 of advanced code, you know, something that may require more time, 322 00:20:48.119 --> 00:20:53.000 more intelligence, a different type of creature entirely. You know, 323 00:20:53.079 --> 00:20:57.119 this is debated all the time, but it's so beautiful 324 00:20:57.160 --> 00:21:03.920 that McCarthy never seem to really. Maybe one of the 325 00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:08.160 benefits actually, you know, of him taking this reclusive posture 326 00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:13.920 in his life was that he he didn't get that 327 00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:19.279 that full dose of sort of implicit brainwashing that, let's 328 00:21:19.319 --> 00:21:24.119 face it, almost every other novelist, almost every movie has 329 00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:28.519 had to incorporate in some sense. And all I'm trying 330 00:21:28.519 --> 00:21:30.079 to say before I throw it back, it is just 331 00:21:30.119 --> 00:21:40.319 that there's there's like an elegant brilliance that that by 332 00:21:40.400 --> 00:21:42.319 virtue of the fact that he was able to insert 333 00:21:42.359 --> 00:21:46.079 these questions and almost nobody even knew because these are 334 00:21:46.519 --> 00:21:50.720 very like hotly debated, very difficult, divisive questions that are 335 00:21:50.759 --> 00:21:54.359 going to determine probably, you know, the outcomes of our 336 00:21:54.839 --> 00:21:57.559 our civilization. Do we decide to put up borders, do 337 00:21:57.640 --> 00:22:01.400 we decide to do mass migration? Can we have some 338 00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:06.279 sort of identity? Or is this thing, this massive entity 339 00:22:06.359 --> 00:22:10.960 out here going to overwhelm us? And I'll leave it 340 00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:12.960 right there, because you know, we could keep going into 341 00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:16.359 Christ and all sorts of other things, and I believe 342 00:22:16.400 --> 00:22:19.799 once again it's all there in this incredibly dense kernel 343 00:22:20.279 --> 00:22:23.599 of the moral question where we started out with, you know, 344 00:22:25.319 --> 00:22:25.920 on the track. 345 00:22:28.160 --> 00:22:34.960 Yeah, so again talking about the non standard structure of 346 00:22:35.000 --> 00:22:39.400 this novel. Most of the action follows or a guess 347 00:22:39.400 --> 00:22:41.640 movie we're talking about the movie, but they're so similar, right, 348 00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:43.039 you feel like you want to pull them in at 349 00:22:43.079 --> 00:22:47.960 the same time. But most of the action follows Llewellyn, 350 00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:51.720 but in a way. The dad that makes this film 351 00:22:51.759 --> 00:22:58.720 so interesting is Sugor and the sheriff Tom Bell. The 352 00:22:58.759 --> 00:23:02.640 sheriff is a very interesting and character. He is the 353 00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:06.200 old man, he's sort of late in his career, comes 354 00:23:06.240 --> 00:23:11.079 from a line of other sheriffs, and we get these 355 00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:15.839 continual interactions where he is talking to his subordinates, to 356 00:23:15.880 --> 00:23:19.480 other sheriffs, to people involved in this case. About the 357 00:23:19.880 --> 00:23:26.200 way from his perspective that things are changing, and ultimately 358 00:23:26.920 --> 00:23:30.960 he retires, he gives up because he feels as if 359 00:23:31.720 --> 00:23:34.079 the world has sort of changed and let him buy. 360 00:23:34.880 --> 00:23:37.519 And what's particularly interesting, and the reason I'm bringing us 361 00:23:37.599 --> 00:23:43.079 up is to contrast it to the determination of the 362 00:23:43.160 --> 00:23:47.119 terminism rather of Anton Sugar, is this fascinating interaction he 363 00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:52.759 has at a diner with Llewellyn's wife and let me 364 00:23:52.759 --> 00:23:55.000 get her name exactly, Sorry, I have way too many 365 00:23:55.000 --> 00:24:00.160 taps over yeah, Carla Gene. And at this point in 366 00:24:00.200 --> 00:24:03.759 the action, Llewellyn has sent his wife away to stay 367 00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:08.200 with her mother to sort of protect her from, you know, 368 00:24:08.240 --> 00:24:12.960 this man hunt, and hasn't told her almost anything. And 369 00:24:13.039 --> 00:24:15.920 he's given her explicit instructions, you know, don't talk to 370 00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:19.519 law enforcement. But Carla Jean is she's young, she's a teenager. 371 00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:24.200 I think she's nineteen, understandably very nervous about this whole thing. 372 00:24:24.680 --> 00:24:28.759 And you know, Sheriff Bells has promised her, you know, 373 00:24:28.799 --> 00:24:31.440 I won't hurt your husband, I'll protect him. So she 374 00:24:31.559 --> 00:24:36.279 goes in for a conversation and to start off this interaction, 375 00:24:37.079 --> 00:24:40.839 the sheriff tells her a really interesting story about a 376 00:24:40.839 --> 00:24:44.839 friend of his, and this friend is someone who was 377 00:24:45.079 --> 00:24:47.559 you know, he was a rancher. He would slaughter cows. 378 00:24:48.359 --> 00:24:51.720 And this is also relevant because if you know almost 379 00:24:51.720 --> 00:24:53.720 anything about this movie, you're familiar with the fact that 380 00:24:53.720 --> 00:24:57.440 Anton Sugar kills quite a lot of people with you know, 381 00:24:57.440 --> 00:25:01.240 a pneumatic device designed for killing cow. Right, you put 382 00:25:01.240 --> 00:25:03.680 it up to their head and if rod goes into 383 00:25:03.680 --> 00:25:06.079 their brain. It's very dramatically shown in one of the 384 00:25:06.079 --> 00:25:09.640 opening scenes of this movie, and he talks about how 385 00:25:09.880 --> 00:25:13.519 in the past things weren't done like this. You would 386 00:25:13.599 --> 00:25:15.880 you hit him on the head with a hammer, slit 387 00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:20.000 their throat, and he describes an incident where this man 388 00:25:20.079 --> 00:25:24.319 is butchering a cow, goes through this process, but when 389 00:25:24.319 --> 00:25:27.920 he's strung up right about to slit its throat, the 390 00:25:27.960 --> 00:25:31.680 cow wakes back up starts thrashing around. So in the panic, 391 00:25:31.880 --> 00:25:36.079 he pulls out a gun and shoots the cow, but 392 00:25:36.799 --> 00:25:40.880 it is a glancing blow, bounces off and hits him 393 00:25:40.880 --> 00:25:43.920 in the arm. Right, the farmers is crippled, and he 394 00:25:44.039 --> 00:25:46.440 brings it up to say, look, even in a conquest, 395 00:25:46.519 --> 00:25:49.960 in a contest between a man and a steer, the 396 00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:53.359 outcome isn't determined right, there's an element of random chance. 397 00:25:54.039 --> 00:25:56.160 I thought that was very interesting because you compare that 398 00:25:56.200 --> 00:25:59.759 to Shagor, who believes in this sort of strict determinism 399 00:26:00.200 --> 00:26:03.640 in his own actions. Right, he promises Llewellyn, if you 400 00:26:03.720 --> 00:26:06.200 don't do this, I will kill your wife. And in 401 00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:10.680