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Speaker 1: Every neighbor got deaf flavor. Somebody saystye them kids, nine

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three little words. It's dinner time. Head sets down for

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some highbrow it's the oil. G we all that smell.

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Have you seen ragging? I think he's made a new

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sign and tasting up and nine from the menu.

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Speaker 2: Riv whoever you are, whatever your flavor.

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Speaker 1: Every neighbor deaf flavor. If somebody said jasteve.

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Speaker 3: Meaning a light man, it's like this man letting butterfly,

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flapping his wings.

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Speaker 2: Dig down in the forest. Man, it gonna cause the

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tree fall, letting five thousand miles away. Man, nobody's seen nobody.

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Speaker 1: You don't need no man. We don't like you. A

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little story and you got like you like that man,

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that's the wind.

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Speaker 2: Man. Don't like you da on pane right.

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Speaker 3: Now, gonna be letter man. Okay, all right, Andy Edwards,

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welcome back to the jay Burd and show how you doing.

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Speaker 2: Man good. I'm so glad to be here. Thank you. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So this is going to be a little bit of

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a departure for you and I. The previous one was

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obviously talking about your book, and while I have finished

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The King of Dogs and we will be talking about

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it at least at some point in the future. Figured

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it might be fun to do some media analysis. Been

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on a little bit of a kick, you know, talking

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about different films, different books, franchises, even largely because politics

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is depressing and there's sort of a limited amount to say,

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and when you put out five shows a week, you know,

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it's nice to freshen things up. But when I reached

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out to you about this idea, you gave me a

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really excellent list of films, including one of my all

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time favorites, No Country for Old Men, obviously based on

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a book by Cormick McCarthy that is also very very good.

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I think it was the first thing I read by him,

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if I'm not mistaken, a very long time ago. So

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the book is worth your time. It's easy to read,

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but we will primarily be focusing on the movie. So

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I'll throw it to you Andy to sort of introduce

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the film and we can take it from there.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Like you, I read the book many many years

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ago when it first came out, and by the time

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the film came out it wasn't that it was maybe

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a couple of years later. I remember being shocked at

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how because there was always at that point in time,

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the idea that some of McCarthy's work was unfilmable Blood

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Meridian in particular, the Crossing even you know, the middle

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book in the in the Border trilogy is kind of

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in that ensue tree. This idea that some of his

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stuff was unfilmable seemed to be rigid, kind of lodged

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in the consciousness. And I mean the book itself was

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kind of a shock. That was when he switched from

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his very ornate, you know, four to five hundred page

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book routine, and he just went for this slim down

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I think, you know, that's coming in three hundred pages,

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and then the road is right around there, and then

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you know, his final books are similarly sort of truncated.

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So the book itself was kind of a shock. I

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remember just thinking, wow, like what happened here? And then

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the movie came out and it was perfect. It's as

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we said earlier. I think for a lot of us,

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you know, this is like a top five, top three,

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maybe the best movie ever made. And the backstory, you know,

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how how does that all happen? How does agree literary

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work come into into the hands of you know, I

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think great directors. They made some other good movies. We

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both agree on this point as well, that No Country

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for Old Men is probably the Coen Brother's best movie,

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but other people would disagree with us. You know, they

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have a ton I mean even Big Lebowski, like it's

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a classic. I love it. I refer to it all

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the time.

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Speaker 3: But oh, look like I'm a I'm a Hail Caesar enjoyer.

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So I wod bit my taste of the Coen Brothers

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is not exactly unimpeachable. Yeah, your point being right. Sorry

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not to interrupt, but no, they have produced a great

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number of films right which are considered classics. But sorry,

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I'll throw it back to you.

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Speaker 2: No, that's a great point. I mean, it isn't like

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we're just talking about some fly by Night one hit

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wonder types. This is their greatest movie, and they're gonna

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go down as you know all timers. I mean, they

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wou and they probably deserve it. Maybe we keep We

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could touch on the Cones now if you want. I

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mean they have a number of sorry about the dog Riker,

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the they have a number of cult classics, sorts of

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of films. Miller's Crossing is when when that I remember

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seeing that with my dad. It was kind of controversial,

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but over time a lot of people will say that's

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their best movie, and I have come to love that

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one myself. Big Lebowski, we touched on. They had their

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very first one Blood Simple I believe it's called This

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is a this if you guys haven't seen this movie,

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this is how they made their their bones. And the

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interesting part is that it's sort of a gritty, new

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er Western set in Texas, which is striking because that's

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where they start and in many ways for me, I

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sort of checked out on the Cohens after No Country

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for Old Men. I haven't seen most of their later catalog,

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but they come back to Texas and this gritty, new

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er sort of feel, you know, at a level far

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surpassing their early stuff. So I guess what I'm saying

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is that the fact that this great work from McCarthy

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winds up in the hands of these guys really at

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the peak of their powers, and Hollywood too, was sort

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of about to make a like a turn for the worst.

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You know this was correct me if I'm wrong, But

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this is like two thousand and eight, two thousand and

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nine ish somewhere. Yeah, So you know, the proverbial shit

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is hitting the fan for American culture pretty hard about

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that point, and I think Hollywood power sort of begins

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to well, it's peaked, probably, so then you have these

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other weird, you know or maybe just serendipitous, sort of

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auspicious inclusions into the story, like the fact that Josh

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Brolin winds up being at McCarthy's deathbed, you know, fifteen

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or some years later. How does that happen? How does

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a guy like McCarthy who again kind of pre explosion

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into the consciousness of how good and important McCarthy is

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or was going back like late nineties. His reclusive nature

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was the legend of it, right, Maybe not the reality,

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but the legend was was beyond Pinchon or any of

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the other like American reclusive novelists. It was profound, like

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people even then were going to Elpaso to try to

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find him. They couldn't find him. And it turned out later,

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of course, none of this was really that true. He

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he just kind of avoided it, but he seemed to

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at that time sort of distance himself from things like

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big budgets, Hollywood, anything that's sort of smacked of the

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inauthentic or glamor or anything that would be tempting. And

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then you know, I think he changed his tune or

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we misinterpreted it early on, but then he comes around

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to have some sort of and I don't know the

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details necessarily, but clearly Josh Brolin, who is like Hollywood

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royalty of one sort or another, winds up being really

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important to Cormac McCarthy. And this is a bizarre, a

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bizarre turn of events to me. I noticed as well.

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This is just a side note. I want to throw

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it back to you as as I was watching the

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movie last week, the scene where they go to the

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hotel and they kind of, you know, he and Sugar,

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Moss and Sugar have this incredible shootout in the hotel.

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The way that it's uncanny. I mean, people should go

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back and maybe check this out. But as Brolin, the

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Brolin character is kind of taking cover as he's you know,

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being fired upon by this you know, the what's well say,

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you know, one of the most dangerous things on the planet.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 2: The way that the Kohen brothers have framed his face,

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it can't be a coincidence that this is the way

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his hair hangs. The mustache. There are pictures of McCarthy

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himself at an earlier, probably about that same age, forty ish.

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I'm not sure it looks exactly like McCarthy, which is

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odd because you know, if you stand these two guys together,

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they're very different, maybe not that different, But there are

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these internal echoes happening within this work in total that

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you know, what do you say about it? Is it

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real Hollywood magic? I tend to think maybe something like

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that is at play when when it all works out,

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you know, when we when we get a movie this good,

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when every almost everything else for the twenty years before

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that and the twenty years after it, you know, I'd

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kind of like take it or leave it in many ways.

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But anyway me rambling, let me throw it back to you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So there are several things there, you know, the

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mythos around Cormack McCarthy. A lot of this came out

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after he died fairly recently. You know, there were a

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lot of people remembering him and to your point about

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his his sort of tendency to shun the spotlight. He

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went through a couple of different marriages, and I can't

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remember which wife it was was remembering him and basically

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said like he would get letters from universities forering him

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ten fifteen thousand dollars to appear to speak, just to

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be present, and he wouldn't even read them, and just

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tear them up and throw them out. And he lived

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at least for a large portion of his life in

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a unheated shack in the middle of nowhere without running water,

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infamously eight you know, rice and beans almost constantly, which,

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as you can imagine, it was sort of hard on

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marriages to put it mildly and see, it is very

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much unexpected. You know that he went from this kind

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of famous recluse to a major Hollywood production with you know,

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a great number of famous actors in it. It's not

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necessarily a superstar studded cast. It's not like you know

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the Rock or you know, Brad pitt is in this movie.

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But still like these are famous actors you've seen before.

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And additionally, going back to this film, I hadn't watched

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it in a couple of years. I was struck by

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how oddly it's paced. And when I say odd, I

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don't mean bad. But you can very very much imagine,

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you know, some producer saying, no, this is all wrong.

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You know the the you know, the big climactic shootout

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with you know, Llewellyn at the end where he dies

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spoiler alert sorry is off screen, it's not shown. We

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see that through in the eyes of the eyes of

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Sheriff Wells right as he you know, walks in or sorry,

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not Sheriff Wells. Well Well, what's the name of Sheriff Bell?

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Excuse me? H? And our main character up to this

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point is just dead on the ground, you know. It's

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a very And the film continues for a good bit

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after that, right, this climactic event, and you could see

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over and over again there are moments where, you know,

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this imaginary producer would say, don't do it like that.

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You know, that's not how you make, you know, a

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blockbuster film. And that's true, right, this isn't really, you know,

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like a blockbuster crime film, but it's it's incredibly unique.

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There's nothing else I've seen like it for any number

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of reasons. So zooming out a little bit just for

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those who haven't read the book or seen the movie

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one you should. It's not hard to find. But the

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broad beat to this plot is that Llewellyn, who's sort

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of a welder, is out poaching antelope basically and shoots

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an antelope and it, you know, runs off, and when

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he finds the blood trail, he realizes there's two blood

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trails crossed, which is a great shot. And so he

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looks to one side and sees the antelope running off,

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and on the other he sees a pit bull, you know,

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kind of hobbling off wounded into the desert. He follows

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the blood trail the other direction and finds a cartel shootout, right,

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a deal gone wrong, a number of dead men, one

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clinging onto life, dogs all shot with you know, a

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truck bed full of I think heroin, and a little

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bit further down the line he finds satchel full of money. Right,

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this becomes sort of inciting motivation to the plot. Now,

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what's interesting, and I'll kick this back to you Andy,

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is when he's first there, he sees, you know, one

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of the cartel men, I am still alive, asked for water.

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He doesn't have water, and he just leaps takes the money,

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takes a few guns, goes back to his trailer, hides

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them both. But we see, you know, he has this

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interaction with his wife which is kind of funny, and

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then he's kept up at night. He can't stand to

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see to leave this guy out in the desert dying

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without water. So in the middle of the night he

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goes back. When he goes there, this man has been

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blown away, right, his head is basically missing, and there

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are cartel members on their trail, assumingly looking for their money.

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He's forced to flee, and this is what sort of

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incites the plot, right, there are different people looking for

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Llewellyn character. He has the money. So I'm curious, what

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do you make of the fact that sort of this

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this inciting incident when they get on his trail they

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find out his identity because of his car.

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Speaker 2: Is there sort of.

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Speaker 3: Being the result of him doing a good deed because

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oftentimes when people talk about this, they reference the fact

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that in this world, kindness is not repaid, and the

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kindness of in going back to this man is ultimately

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what dooms him. Obviously, you know, there is a we

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find out later there is a tracking device in this money.

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But still the fact that they know who he is,

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his name, his identity, which later you know leads to

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the action of the film, is directly due to the

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fact that he went back for this man, this narco,

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And you know, in an act of mercy and is

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punished for it. So what do you make of that?

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Speaker 2: Andy? Yeah, this is this is a ponderable thing. And

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I've sat, like, I guess us in awe or envy

257
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of the simplicity of the setup here. I like I

258
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would sit around and ask myself what similar ideas could

259
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I come up with as a writer or you know,

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a screenwriter that are this just clean where you have

261
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this moral conundrum built in and it just so seamlessly

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perfectly fits with all these resulting plot elements. Because you're right,

263
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if Moss doesn't make this choice, if he isn't driven,

264
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literally he's kept up at night. He leaves his wife,

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he tells her, you know. She asks, where you're going.

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I'm going to do something dumber in hell, I think,

267
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he says. But I'm going to do it anyway, And

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he mentions his mom. Know, he says to his wife

269
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as he leaves. If I don't come back, tell mom

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my lover, llewell, and your mama's dead. Okay, I'll tell

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her myself then. And I think that what he's doing

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is amazing, but it's in its simplicity, like he's McCarthy

273
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I'm talking about here. But obviously the Cohens are getting

274
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this as well. He's taking Moraley and just yoking it

275
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right to this generally. Can you know it's considered like

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our mothers are the first conscience that we have, and

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this is kind of what is emplaced into the child

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as right or wrong. And from here, you know, McCarthy

279
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uses this to bring up all these questions about things

280
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like predetermination, free will, fate. Because he then uses our

281
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foil character of Anton shagor who himself is, we find

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out we should talk about this too, of course, is

283
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he is running on some sort of a code where

284
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choices are incredibly simple, they're not debate. He doesn't debate them.

285
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It's the people that he has to deal with who

286
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want to debate about right and wrong. He and we

287
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call this the course of sociopath or what have you.

288
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And and that spins off into that next layer that's

289
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so stunning and like perfect about this book is the

290
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law element. You know in Sheriff Bell, he's later asking himself,

291
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can I even handle this? What is this thing that

292
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operates on some other code? And I'll add one more

293
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thing that because you know, a book like this, it's

294
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deceptive in its simplicity and that's why I said earlier,

295
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I still find myself sitting around like a guy. Is

296
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an idea this full of Jews that's just so simple

297
00:19:01,319 --> 00:19:04,160
ever going to like drop into my mind and I

298
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you know, I'll keep looking, but it's it's exquisite and

299
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it's super rare. And so this last element you have

300
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Bell again asking himself, what is what is this entity

301
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or this type of the mentality that I and he decides,

302
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,200
of course, like he's not sufficient to the task, and

303
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he has this incredible conversation with his uncle that takes

304
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it back into history. And so now McCarthy has like

305
00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:41,079
tied this book to the Border trilogy and he's sort

306
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of made this cultural commentary that guys such as yourself

307
00:19:44,599 --> 00:19:49,480
and I in this particular space are are asking right now,

308
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,880
what is Western civilization or whatever, you know, whatever you

309
00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:59,400
want to call it? Law order? Is this is this

310
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like an I identity issue? And it you know, we

311
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,319
know the answer like it kind of is. We've tried

312
00:20:04,319 --> 00:20:06,480
to work this out in many different ways, whether it's

313
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:14,400
we just slaughter everybody, we do colonialism, we do you know, liberalism,

314
00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:18,640
or what have you. And you know, McCarthy's not going

315
00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,759
to give us an answer, and nine out of ten

316
00:20:21,799 --> 00:20:24,200
people who watch this movie aren't going to ask that

317
00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:27,319
question or even see that McCarthy's posing it in that way.

318
00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:33,640
But to my lights anyway, establishing the story at the border,

319
00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:38,160
you know, this line that is somewhat imaginary, that does

320
00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:43,400
kind of require adherence to, if you will, a sort

321
00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:48,000
of advanced code, you know, something that may require more time,

322
00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:53,000
more intelligence, a different type of creature entirely. You know,

323
00:20:53,079 --> 00:20:57,119
this is debated all the time, but it's so beautiful

324
00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:03,920
that McCarthy never seem to really. Maybe one of the

325
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:08,160
benefits actually, you know, of him taking this reclusive posture

326
00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:13,920
in his life was that he he didn't get that

327
00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:19,279
that full dose of sort of implicit brainwashing that, let's

328
00:21:19,319 --> 00:21:24,119
face it, almost every other novelist, almost every movie has

329
00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:28,519
had to incorporate in some sense. And all I'm trying

330
00:21:28,519 --> 00:21:30,079
to say before I throw it back, it is just

331
00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:40,319
that there's there's like an elegant brilliance that that by

332
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:42,319
virtue of the fact that he was able to insert

333
00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:46,079
these questions and almost nobody even knew because these are

334
00:21:46,519 --> 00:21:50,720
very like hotly debated, very difficult, divisive questions that are

335
00:21:50,759 --> 00:21:54,359
going to determine probably, you know, the outcomes of our

336
00:21:54,839 --> 00:21:57,559
our civilization. Do we decide to put up borders, do

337
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we decide to do mass migration? Can we have some

338
00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:06,279
sort of identity? Or is this thing, this massive entity

339
00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:10,960
out here going to overwhelm us? And I'll leave it

340
00:22:11,039 --> 00:22:12,960
right there, because you know, we could keep going into

341
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:16,359
Christ and all sorts of other things, and I believe

342
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,799
once again it's all there in this incredibly dense kernel

343
00:22:20,279 --> 00:22:23,599
of the moral question where we started out with, you know,

344
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on the track.

345
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:34,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, so again talking about the non standard structure of

346
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:39,400
this novel. Most of the action follows or a guess

347
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:41,640
movie we're talking about the movie, but they're so similar, right,

348
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:43,039
you feel like you want to pull them in at

349
00:22:43,079 --> 00:22:47,960
the same time. But most of the action follows Llewellyn,

350
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:51,720
but in a way. The dad that makes this film

351
00:22:51,759 --> 00:22:58,720
so interesting is Sugor and the sheriff Tom Bell. The

352
00:22:58,759 --> 00:23:02,640
sheriff is a very interesting and character. He is the

353
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,200
old man, he's sort of late in his career, comes

354
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from a line of other sheriffs, and we get these

355
00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:15,839
continual interactions where he is talking to his subordinates, to

356
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,480
other sheriffs, to people involved in this case. About the

357
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:26,200
way from his perspective that things are changing, and ultimately

358
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:30,960
he retires, he gives up because he feels as if

359
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,079
the world has sort of changed and let him buy.

360
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And what's particularly interesting, and the reason I'm bringing us

361
00:23:37,599 --> 00:23:43,079
up is to contrast it to the determination of the

362
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:47,119
terminism rather of Anton Sugar, is this fascinating interaction he

363
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:52,759
has at a diner with Llewellyn's wife and let me

364
00:23:52,759 --> 00:23:55,000
get her name exactly, Sorry, I have way too many

365
00:23:55,000 --> 00:24:00,160
taps over yeah, Carla Gene. And at this point in

366
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,759
the action, Llewellyn has sent his wife away to stay

367
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:08,200
with her mother to sort of protect her from, you know,

368
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:12,960
this man hunt, and hasn't told her almost anything. And

369
00:24:13,039 --> 00:24:15,920
he's given her explicit instructions, you know, don't talk to

370
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:19,519
law enforcement. But Carla Jean is she's young, she's a teenager.

371
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:24,200
I think she's nineteen, understandably very nervous about this whole thing.

372
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,759
And you know, Sheriff Bells has promised her, you know,

373
00:24:28,799 --> 00:24:31,440
I won't hurt your husband, I'll protect him. So she

374
00:24:31,559 --> 00:24:36,279
goes in for a conversation and to start off this interaction,

375
00:24:37,079 --> 00:24:40,839
the sheriff tells her a really interesting story about a

376
00:24:40,839 --> 00:24:44,839
friend of his, and this friend is someone who was

377
00:24:45,079 --> 00:24:47,559
you know, he was a rancher. He would slaughter cows.

378
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,720
And this is also relevant because if you know almost

379
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:53,720
anything about this movie, you're familiar with the fact that

380
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:57,440
Anton Sugar kills quite a lot of people with you know,

381
00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,240
a pneumatic device designed for killing cow. Right, you put

382
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,680
it up to their head and if rod goes into

383
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,079
their brain. It's very dramatically shown in one of the

384
00:25:06,079 --> 00:25:09,640
opening scenes of this movie, and he talks about how

385
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,519
in the past things weren't done like this. You would

386
00:25:13,599 --> 00:25:15,880
you hit him on the head with a hammer, slit

387
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:20,000
their throat, and he describes an incident where this man

388
00:25:20,079 --> 00:25:24,319
is butchering a cow, goes through this process, but when

389
00:25:24,319 --> 00:25:27,920
he's strung up right about to slit its throat, the

390
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,680
cow wakes back up starts thrashing around. So in the panic,

391
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:36,079
he pulls out a gun and shoots the cow, but

392
00:25:36,799 --> 00:25:40,880
it is a glancing blow, bounces off and hits him

393
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,920
in the arm. Right, the farmers is crippled, and he

394
00:25:44,039 --> 00:25:46,440
brings it up to say, look, even in a conquest,

395
00:25:46,519 --> 00:25:49,960
in a contest between a man and a steer, the

396
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,359
outcome isn't determined right, there's an element of random chance.

397
00:25:54,039 --> 00:25:56,160
I thought that was very interesting because you compare that

398
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,759
to Shagor, who believes in this sort of strict determinism

399
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,640
in his own actions. Right, he promises Llewellyn, if you

400
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,200
don't do this, I will kill your wife. And in

401
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:10,680
the closing scene, months after the action is subsided, he's

402
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:14,319
reclaimed the money. He goes to make good on that right.

403
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:16,920
He makes it clear that this is for him ironclad.

404
00:26:17,799 --> 00:26:22,720
But the one small speck of randomness Sigor will allow

405
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:27,240
is the famous flipping of the coin. See he asks

406
00:26:27,279 --> 00:26:29,680
this gas station attendant, you know, the famous line, what's

407
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,359
the most you've ever lost on a coin toss? Making

408
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,279
him pick heads or tails to play for his life.

409
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,440
And I think that's such an interesting comparison between the

410
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,640
two men. You know that this man, the sheriff, who

411
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,680
does believe and an aspect of randomness at the very least,

412
00:26:45,079 --> 00:26:48,680
versus Shigor, who has a very very tight, deterministic worldview

413
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:53,960
with one small element of freedom in it, which even

414
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,599
then he's not truly free. He is bound by the

415
00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:01,039
decision of that coin. Couple other things that I think

416
00:27:01,079 --> 00:27:03,240
are interesting. I don't know if you caught this, Andy,

417
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,680
But there's a fascinating scene close to the end where

418
00:27:07,759 --> 00:27:12,039
Carla Jean calls the sheriff and asks him almost off

419
00:27:12,079 --> 00:27:14,359
the rip. Do you remember that story about that farmer

420
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,960
and Tommy Lee Jones, who plays the sheriff, he goes

421
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:22,279
who and then when she clarifies other farmers? Oh, yes, yes,

422
00:27:22,319 --> 00:27:25,200
of course, kind of at least implying he might have

423
00:27:25,279 --> 00:27:28,240
made that story up. Sort of an interesting moment there.

424
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,319
But I'm curious, Andy, what do you make of that

425
00:27:31,519 --> 00:27:34,359
contrast between the two men there they are different views

426
00:27:34,519 --> 00:27:38,440
of I guess the capacity of human action in the world.

427
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:46,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean this is so where I'm at with it.

428
00:27:46,279 --> 00:27:52,400
I can't I think it's I'm not at like decided

429
00:27:52,519 --> 00:27:59,000
on entirely what what the truth is, you know, independent

430
00:27:59,039 --> 00:28:02,559
of McCarthy's position or what. I'm still sort of stewing

431
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:09,599
on the relationship between the coin in the sense that

432
00:28:10,599 --> 00:28:15,839
the sugar uses it and other coins. In McCarthy's work.

433
00:28:17,519 --> 00:28:22,839
There's two parts or two little bits in Blood Meridian

434
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:35,480
where this coin figures very importantly, and you know, it's

435
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:39,720
maybe a little bit out of the scope of our conversation.

436
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,079
But for those readers who have read it. You know,

437
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:47,880
we're talking about the moment where Judge Holden is sort

438
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:54,119
of testifying before the fire and he's doing these magic

439
00:28:54,160 --> 00:29:01,000
tricks with this coin. And then there's a later bit

440
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,480
which is actually told in sort of like semi dream state,

441
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:12,160
where the judge once again is dealing with coins as

442
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:16,440
he looks over the forgers that is, like a cold forger,

443
00:29:16,519 --> 00:29:20,000
somebody who stamps metal coins. He is looking over his

444
00:29:20,079 --> 00:29:24,880
shoulder to determine the image on the coin. Now, when

445
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,720
I first read that twenty some years ago, that was

446
00:29:28,759 --> 00:29:33,640
about the most esoteric thing that I had encountered, like anywhere,

447
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:37,839
I mean in I just sort of sat stunned, and

448
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:41,680
you know, here I am twenty years later. I have

449
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:47,519
a lot of theories, and many people do because this

450
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:54,519
is one of these Like I think that at that point,

451
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:56,519
you know, you have to look at somebody like this

452
00:29:57,039 --> 00:30:02,759
who's stretched this theme or these questions of in these

453
00:30:02,839 --> 00:30:05,759
this imagery over I don't know, I guess that was

454
00:30:06,039 --> 00:30:12,160
forty years or something in McCarthy's career to explore certain

455
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:18,720
questions for himself. And then once again he he has

456
00:30:18,759 --> 00:30:24,279
boiled it back down whatever you know, issues or philosophical

457
00:30:24,359 --> 00:30:27,799
questions what have you are surrounding this image of the coin,

458
00:30:28,039 --> 00:30:30,160
and there are many and again we could we could

459
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,920
do a week's series of speculation and we're never gonna

460
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,599
maybe be entirely sure. But that's you know, that's one

461
00:30:36,599 --> 00:30:40,200
of the best things about literature in my opinion. But

462
00:30:40,279 --> 00:30:46,920
McCarthy then boils it down to this incredibly dense, very clear,

463
00:30:47,119 --> 00:30:52,599
as you rightly point out here, kind of distinction between

464
00:30:52,599 --> 00:30:55,079
and it's and it's a it's a triad kind of

465
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:04,200
between these three characters where and I actually hadn't. I

466
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,599
didn't actually in the last viewing. I'm glad you brought

467
00:31:07,599 --> 00:31:09,640
this up because I didn't really think about Oh yeah,

468
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:15,480
you're right. Bell is concerned with the same issue of

469
00:31:16,119 --> 00:31:20,920
randomness or chance, but he views it in a different way.

470
00:31:21,279 --> 00:31:23,240
He does not view it in the He kind of

471
00:31:23,279 --> 00:31:27,200
acknowledges that, you know, it could go left, could go right,

472
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:31,240
could be heads, could be tails, it's uncertain. But he

473
00:31:31,279 --> 00:31:36,000
has a very different relationship with it than as you say, Shigre,

474
00:31:36,119 --> 00:31:39,440
who is just kind of cold and the margin is

475
00:31:39,559 --> 00:31:44,119
much much slimmer. So I guess what I make of

476
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:48,519
it is that I just stand in awe frankly that

477
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:55,039
the writer here, you know, the storyteller is able to

478
00:31:55,119 --> 00:31:59,079
carry these ideas forward through his career and actually in

479
00:31:59,119 --> 00:32:03,359
some ways improved. One is presentation such that people can

480
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:07,759
watch No Country for Old Men take away. I've said

481
00:32:07,799 --> 00:32:11,400
this before. I almost feel like No Country for Old Men,

482
00:32:11,559 --> 00:32:14,319
if we combine both book and movie as sort of

483
00:32:14,319 --> 00:32:19,920
a thing, contain more power than Blood Meridian. I'm not

484
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,599
saying it's a better novel. And we'll see, you know

485
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:27,319
what happens with John Hillcoate's movie version of Blood Meridian.

486
00:32:27,599 --> 00:32:30,799
I think it could be really good, but who knows,

487
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:38,720
could be really bad. Nonetheless, to me, this, uh, it's striking.

488
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:43,279
You know that a book as it's like uniformly anybody

489
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,359
who's serious and says, well, what's the greatest novel? If

490
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,119
you are not dealing with Blood Meridian? You know, I'm

491
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,480
not interested in your opinion. Frankly, I mean this is

492
00:32:51,519 --> 00:32:55,720
a This is a level of work, way over way

493
00:32:55,839 --> 00:33:00,640
beyond anything that almost anybody in all of history, my opinion,

494
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:05,359
has has come to deliver. But then somehow he concentrated

495
00:33:05,359 --> 00:33:08,559
that in such a way that No Country for Old

496
00:33:08,599 --> 00:33:12,200
Men as a movie or or you know, a story.

497
00:33:12,279 --> 00:33:18,200
Let's say contains, you know, arguably even more power than

498
00:33:18,279 --> 00:33:21,119
Blood Meridian, and you kind of talked about, you know,

499
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,920
the pacing and one one other thing I wanted to

500
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:28,920
add to that as like a really important and striking

501
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:32,720
piece of the movie is did I was? I was

502
00:33:32,759 --> 00:33:35,079
trying to pay attention, but did you detect even a

503
00:33:35,119 --> 00:33:40,240
single note of music soundtrack? I don't think there's even

504
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:41,920
a ton there is?

505
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 1: Is?

506
00:33:42,039 --> 00:33:47,559
Speaker 3: There is one? And it's when Josh Brolin has made

507
00:33:47,559 --> 00:33:51,400
it into Mexico. So he is, you know, running away

508
00:33:51,599 --> 00:33:54,799
from this kind of dramatic shootout we mentioned earlier Always

509
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,759
crossed the Border. Yeah, he's able to, you know, buy

510
00:33:58,799 --> 00:34:01,720
a coat off of some drunk high school students coming

511
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:06,279
back from Mexico, sneak across the border and then he's

512
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:10,519
shot up, right, he's bleeding out and he falls asleep

513
00:34:10,559 --> 00:34:12,920
on the ground. And when he wakes up, there's a

514
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:17,079
mariachi band playing to him, and it seems like they're

515
00:34:17,159 --> 00:34:18,920
kind of in on the joke, like, oh, he got drunk.

516
00:34:19,519 --> 00:34:22,239
And then he kind of turns over, his coat falls

517
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,760
open and you see he's gut shot and he holds

518
00:34:26,039 --> 00:34:29,559
a bloody one hundred dollars bill up and just you know, says,

519
00:34:29,599 --> 00:34:32,079
you know, take me to the hospital. And that moment,

520
00:34:32,159 --> 00:34:34,840
which starts off as this like jolly mariachi music and

521
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,440
then as soon as he turns over, very abruptly dies

522
00:34:37,519 --> 00:34:40,679
and then just dead, silent kind of city Center is

523
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,440
as far as I am aware, the one moment of

524
00:34:43,519 --> 00:34:45,039
music in that entire movie.

525
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,760
Speaker 2: I think you're right. I think that's exactly right. When again,

526
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:51,679
like I guess maybe we could hand it to the

527
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,960
Cohens at that point, because you're right, it's just it's

528
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,400
how can you not laugh? But also just kind of

529
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,960
cry at the whole the whole setne a business. You know,

530
00:35:01,079 --> 00:35:05,280
Here's here's my dirty, you know, disgusting, blood soaked money.

531
00:35:05,519 --> 00:35:09,559
Here's these guys just you know, kind of kind of

532
00:35:10,639 --> 00:35:14,039
it's silly, and they seem kind of dumb, like can

533
00:35:14,079 --> 00:35:18,440
they not see that this dude is not prepared for

534
00:35:18,519 --> 00:35:21,199
like some you know, some the morning entertainment. Right now,

535
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:26,599
this guy is dying, and you're right, and the pacing

536
00:35:27,039 --> 00:35:33,559
you know that you mentioned earlier. This goes back to

537
00:35:34,559 --> 00:35:37,559
this one little bit I wanted to bring in as

538
00:35:37,559 --> 00:35:42,119
far as you know, lore or background, and I don't

539
00:35:42,119 --> 00:35:46,960
know how I've never been to the McCarthy the Witlift Papers.

540
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:49,800
It's called It's where all his you know, his early

541
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:54,119
manuscripts and correspondence. I have friends that have gone and

542
00:35:54,159 --> 00:35:58,039
I've read a few things about it, and that's the

543
00:35:58,079 --> 00:36:02,719
extent of it for me. But one bit of this lore,

544
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:06,719
and I think this is pretty true, is that McCarthy

545
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:11,280
turned his first draft of No Country for Old Men

546
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,639
into his agent, who is a woman I believe she's

547
00:36:14,679 --> 00:36:22,639
still alive named Binkie binky Something's. She's one of the

548
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:28,199
like two or three real major literary agents you know still,

549
00:36:29,199 --> 00:36:31,440
I guess, applying her trade in New York right now.

550
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,599
And she worked with McCarthy for I think maybe the

551
00:36:34,679 --> 00:36:39,440
last half of his career. Adams Binkie anyway, Binkie's Something.

552
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:45,320
So Binkie takes this manuscript and it's I think it

553
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,239
was six hundred but it might have been eight hundred

554
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:52,880
pages and reduces it essentially on her own to the

555
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:56,159
three hundred roughly pages we have in the in the

556
00:36:56,159 --> 00:37:01,480
final edition. What my understanding is that most of what

557
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:08,599
was excised was Sheriff Bell and more of the generational

558
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,960
sort of histories that are alluded to in the movie,

559
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:16,960
and of course the book to some to some extent anyway,

560
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,599
and this is this is I think pertinent to the

561
00:37:21,639 --> 00:37:24,840
pacing idea where and this struck me similar when I

562
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:29,679
went to watch this last week, maybe like you feel

563
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,840
like you're like five minutes in or ten minutes or something,

564
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:36,480
but I realized, like, damn, the movie is half over.

565
00:37:36,679 --> 00:37:40,760
I mean, it's just screaming pasted you and stuff is

566
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:46,239
happening so quickly. Do you do you remember what the

567
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,159
like to what the movie clocks in at total, it's

568
00:37:49,199 --> 00:37:51,400
something like ninety minutes just at two hours.

569
00:37:51,559 --> 00:37:53,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not a very long film.

570
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it And.

571
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,039
Speaker 3: The reason I remember that is because I had a

572
00:37:58,159 --> 00:38:04,239
very similar experience where my memory of this movie is like,

573
00:38:04,559 --> 00:38:06,880
and this happens often where you know, if I asked

574
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,480
you to, you know, give me the plot of a

575
00:38:09,519 --> 00:38:12,760
movie that you saw, you know, ten years ago, you'd

576
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,960
get the beats there, but it would be proportioned differently.

577
00:38:16,039 --> 00:38:19,440
You know, you'd overemphasize some things and minimize others. And

578
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:24,400
to your point, the Llewellyn storyline, which is the majority

579
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:28,840
of the film, moves very very quickly. You were going

580
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:31,519
through a lot in a not a lot of time.

581
00:38:31,519 --> 00:38:34,719
There's not a whole lot of downtime, per se. And

582
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,400
not to say that this section with Sheriff Bell afterwards

583
00:38:38,519 --> 00:38:41,679
is long, but it is much slower paced, is much

584
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:46,840
more relaxed. And yeah, that's it's a fascinating dynamic there.

585
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:49,719
But your point is correct because I had the exact

586
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:51,960
same experience last night with my brother in law where

587
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:54,039
I was going through it and you know, someone came

588
00:38:54,079 --> 00:38:56,119
into the room, so we paused it for you know,

589
00:38:56,159 --> 00:38:57,920
all of thirty seconds, and so I saw the progress

590
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:00,599
bar at the bottom. It's like, wait, what, We're eighty

591
00:39:00,599 --> 00:39:02,840
percent done with this movie. It feels like we're at that,

592
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,119
you know again, the halfway point, just because you know,

593
00:39:06,159 --> 00:39:11,119
it is not very long. Ah teer. And by the way,

594
00:39:11,159 --> 00:39:17,960
her name is Amanda Binkie. Urban is a nickname urban uh.

595
00:39:19,639 --> 00:39:21,440
But the point is several things I want to get

596
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:23,920
to there. And I think that's an interesting point because

597
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:29,840
Chriff Bell is the main character, but he's not in

598
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:33,000
the majority of the film right the obviously the title

599
00:39:33,119 --> 00:39:35,519
no Country for Old Men, he is an old man

600
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:37,920
in this country. It sounds stupid when you say that,

601
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:39,559
but that is, you know, sort of what we're getting

602
00:39:39,599 --> 00:39:42,840
at and are there are a series of really fascinating

603
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:48,239
interactions with with Sheriff bell Uh kind of continually he

604
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:55,119
is sort of marveling and despairing at what his county

605
00:39:55,199 --> 00:39:59,000
has become. You know, he talks about how at the beginning,

606
00:39:59,039 --> 00:40:01,599
it's the opening, many of his colleagues, a great many

607
00:40:01,679 --> 00:40:04,400
of his father and others never wore a gun. They

608
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,199
didn't feel the need to. And we get these kind

609
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:11,039
of flashes from his previous life. Like he has one

610
00:40:11,079 --> 00:40:13,639
example where he talks about, you know, a guy I

611
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:16,360
sent to the electric chair. You know, a guy who

612
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:19,840
you know, had killed a fourteen year old and he

613
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,519
was talking about in the media, they portrayed this as

614
00:40:22,559 --> 00:40:25,000
a crime of passion. You know, he had this obsession

615
00:40:25,039 --> 00:40:28,800
with this girl. But he remembers interacting with him, you know,

616
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:32,880
fifteen minutes before this man's final moments. And the guy said, no,

617
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:36,480
it was random chance. It was I was born wanting

618
00:40:36,519 --> 00:40:38,920
to kill and my whole life was just waiting for

619
00:40:39,039 --> 00:40:42,559
that right moment. And I think we see two things there,

620
00:40:42,599 --> 00:40:47,519
one that same element of randomness. Are we ascribing motivation

621
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:50,719
to random actors, which is a very interesting theme in

622
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:55,199
this Are we building a narrative around random events and

623
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:58,159
then also right this idea that things in the past

624
00:40:58,199 --> 00:41:02,639
were better, men were more virtue this because there's a

625
00:41:02,679 --> 00:41:07,920
really interesting one of the closing scenes of this movie

626
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:12,280
where he after Llewellyn has died, after the action has subsided,

627
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:15,440
he goes to visit one of his friends, I can't

628
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:16,760
remember his name off the top of my head, who

629
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:19,440
is an eighty year old sheriff's deputy, even older than

630
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:23,039
he is, and we find out that he has been crippled.

631
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,519
The sheriff's deputy. He was shot in the line of

632
00:41:25,599 --> 00:41:28,199
duty and he lives in farm in the middle of

633
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:30,119
nowhere with a whole bunch of cats in a wheelchair.

634
00:41:31,119 --> 00:41:34,880
And there are several interesting things about that because we

635
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:40,119
hear one that this former sheriff's deputy when you know

636
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:42,280
the sheriff asks him, well, you know, what would you

637
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:45,599
do if your murder or if you're you know, assailant

638
00:41:45,639 --> 00:41:47,960
had gotten out, you know, if he had been let free,

639
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:51,840
And he gives him really interesting answer. He says nothing,

640
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:56,400
and it's this great line where he says, you realize,

641
00:41:56,559 --> 00:42:00,239
when you're so desperate at trying to get back something

642
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:02,400
that you've lost, you realize your life is running out

643
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:05,760
the front door, right, you're losing that, which is a

644
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:09,159
great line and a powerful scene. But what's particularly interesting

645
00:42:09,199 --> 00:42:13,079
is there the two of them start talking about I

646
00:42:13,079 --> 00:42:15,960
think it's someone's uncle. I actually think this sheriff deputy

647
00:42:16,079 --> 00:42:19,159
is his wife's uncle or something like that. There's some

648
00:42:19,199 --> 00:42:22,760
sort of distant relation there. And they're talking about this

649
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:27,039
incident from nineteen oh nine, right well before the events

650
00:42:27,039 --> 00:42:29,880
of this film, talking about you know, one of their

651
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,599
relations who was you know, gunned down on his front porch,

652
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:36,280
you know, a law man shot at home by a

653
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:39,639
group of Indians. He bled out over the you know,

654
00:42:39,679 --> 00:42:42,760
over that night, and he uses that as a foil

655
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:44,960
because he says, after this men was shot, you know,

656
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:47,639
his wife has gathered around him, the Indians have left.

657
00:42:48,079 --> 00:42:50,519
He's still trying to grab the shotgun to go after

658
00:42:50,559 --> 00:42:53,239
these men. Yeah, and there are two interesting things. They're

659
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:56,159
one that that theme that we've mentioned before, right of

660
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:59,320
trying to hold on to something, as we saw with

661
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:03,039
this money, it sort of motivates this plot forward. Also,

662
00:43:04,079 --> 00:43:07,440
we see again this idea that things in the past

663
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:09,880
were equally violent and hard, you know, that there was

664
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:13,000
this sort of random violence that I don't remember what

665
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,360
the inciting incident is with the Indians. But it's not

666
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:17,880
some great thing. It's just sort of an argument that

667
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:23,119
goes bad. And additionally, we also see a comparison in

668
00:43:23,199 --> 00:43:27,760
contrast to what happens with Llewellyn and his wife, because

669
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:29,800
there's a moment and I know I'm throwing a ton

670
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:31,639
at you, Andy, so I'll give you a chance to respond.

671
00:43:31,679 --> 00:43:36,440
In a moment when Schigor, who has killed another bounty

672
00:43:36,519 --> 00:43:40,079
hunter on the trail of this money, gets on the

673
00:43:40,119 --> 00:43:45,599
phone with Llewellyn, the second bounty hunter played by Woody

674
00:43:45,639 --> 00:43:49,440
Harrelson in a very good performance from him, tracks him

675
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:52,199
down to this hospital and says, hey, look, you know

676
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:55,280
you got to give this up. Give me the money.

677
00:43:55,559 --> 00:43:57,880
We'll make sure you're protected, and when you want to

678
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:01,559
do it, call me at this hotel. The meantime, Shagor

679
00:44:01,639 --> 00:44:03,679
is on the same trail, kills this bounty hunter in

680
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:07,960
a very great scene and literally over his dead body,

681
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:12,039
picks up the phone when Llewellyn calls and says, you

682
00:44:12,079 --> 00:44:14,280
know there's only one way this is going to go.

683
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:18,079
If you bring me the money, I won't kill your wife.

684
00:44:18,159 --> 00:44:21,719
If you don't, she's dead again. This is what happens

685
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:24,000
in the end of the film. But I think that

686
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:27,599
that anecdote there with the older sheriff's deputy is really

687
00:44:27,639 --> 00:44:30,320
interesting because, as you said, a lot of these family

688
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:33,079
histories were pulled out of the final version, but that

689
00:44:33,079 --> 00:44:35,519
one's almost perfect. We see it lining up with so

690
00:44:35,599 --> 00:44:38,840
many other things in the film, and you know, next

691
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:43,039
to the very closing of the movie with him and

692
00:44:43,039 --> 00:44:45,920
his wife, you know, him recounting this dream after he's retired.

693
00:44:46,639 --> 00:44:49,400
I think it's perhaps one of the most interesting, you know,

694
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:51,239
moments in the film. But I've been going on for

695
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:52,519
a while, Andy, I'll throw it back to you.

696
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:59,239
Speaker 2: Okay, that was well done, Jay, I didn't I didn't.

697
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:02,280
I don't think that I made that particular set of

698
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:07,400
connections between that little story that he the guy's name

699
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:09,960
is Ellis. I believe that he's the guy with the

700
00:45:10,039 --> 00:45:15,840
cats who has been shot and he's he's there, you know,

701
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:22,360
the recounting this family showdown. That does have instant parallels

702
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:29,000
with an obvious parallels with with Moss and uh, what's

703
00:45:29,039 --> 00:45:33,239
her name again, Carla Jean. The way that kind of

704
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:37,920
winds out, I don't know. Something that occurred to me

705
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:41,320
as you were saying this and this may this may

706
00:45:43,559 --> 00:45:49,880
help flesh out some of the bigger, I believe implications.

707
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:56,039
You know this again with this density that's sort of implicit,

708
00:45:56,199 --> 00:45:59,559
and McCarthy seems to feel like he doesn't want to

709
00:45:59,639 --> 00:46:02,559
or knee or the audience can't manage or you know again,

710
00:46:03,679 --> 00:46:07,920
miss Binky Urban doesn't believe the readers want and honestly

711
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:12,039
she made the right calls. That's another thing about that

712
00:46:12,079 --> 00:46:16,039
little literary agent story. It made me think, like, damn,

713
00:46:16,079 --> 00:46:20,000
maybe these people aren't entirely parasitical, and they do serve

714
00:46:20,039 --> 00:46:23,880
occasionally as some function. But so as you're talking about this,

715
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:29,519
I thought back a bit that is in the book

716
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:32,679
and it's not in the movie, and I forget now

717
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:36,960
who's talking about this, but it does stem from this

718
00:46:37,199 --> 00:46:42,079
material that seems to have been mostly excised again from

719
00:46:42,079 --> 00:46:46,599
the early manuscript, and then is is incredibly well, you know,

720
00:46:46,679 --> 00:46:53,840
compressed into the movie. There's a point where one of

721
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:57,039
these I again, I'm I'm failing to remember who it's

722
00:46:57,079 --> 00:46:59,440
been a while since I read the book who is

723
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:05,119
delivering this little diatribe, But I think it's it's bell

724
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:09,320
or or or the uncle or they're recalling a story

725
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:13,840
together something like this, and they're talking about someone who

726
00:47:16,159 --> 00:47:22,480
carved a water trough, a stone water trough in in

727
00:47:22,599 --> 00:47:25,639
like their backyard. And as time went on and I

728
00:47:25,679 --> 00:47:28,360
thought about this, and I would see the picture of Heidiger.

729
00:47:30,119 --> 00:47:32,599
There's a famous picture of Heideger in his backyard and

730
00:47:32,639 --> 00:47:36,719
he's at like a stone water trough getting some water,

731
00:47:37,119 --> 00:47:41,159
you know, in Bavaria or wherever the hell he was from.

732
00:47:43,199 --> 00:47:45,880
And it's it's massive, you know, it must weigh ten

733
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:49,199
thousand pounds, and it's carved of stone, and it's it's

734
00:47:49,679 --> 00:47:55,039
it's very simple. It's provincial, you know, it's like old

735
00:47:55,079 --> 00:47:57,760
school Europe there. They're probably long gone up by now.

736
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:01,079
And the question that's raised in the book is why

737
00:48:01,679 --> 00:48:06,880
would a man, after laboring all day come home and

738
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:10,800
with chisel and hammer work to make a very simple

739
00:48:11,039 --> 00:48:16,360
but very functional water trough for his house and family

740
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:19,920
that and I remember this very clearly, that would last

741
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:23,280
ten thousand years. This is the line in the book.

742
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:27,360
And I think the reason this came back to me

743
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:33,280
as we talk about this issue of random violence, you know,

744
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:35,519
and the ways that this is managed, and how does

745
00:48:35,519 --> 00:48:40,360
somebody confront this. It's striking that this is kind of

746
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:43,079
a choice, like, you don't really have to do that.

747
00:48:43,119 --> 00:48:46,360
You don't really have to build civilization, you don't really

748
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:49,760
have to pass down tradition. You can. It is an

749
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:52,559
option for us that we can just reduce this to

750
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:57,840
virtually some sort of state of nature and just kind

751
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:01,320
of chop each other's heads off and randomly, you know,

752
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:05,119
proceed to eat fruit or whatever until time runs out.

753
00:49:05,519 --> 00:49:08,760
And I believe that it's it's this. It's kind of

754
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:11,960
the heart of the whole issue is why would we

755
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:15,480
do this if it's random, or if there's even just

756
00:49:15,599 --> 00:49:18,639
this slight margin. And I think what McCarthy is telling

757
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:24,280
us is that that margin is pure magic, that's you know, God,

758
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:29,159
that's our divinity, that's the soul, that's our choice to do.

759
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:32,119
We want to sit down and take the ten thousand

760
00:49:32,199 --> 00:49:35,119
year option, Like after I labor, I'm going to come

761
00:49:35,159 --> 00:49:37,559
home and do this thing for my family so that

762
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:40,119
my son doesn't have to spend his time doing it.

763
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:43,599
He's going to spend his time doing something else. And

764
00:49:43,679 --> 00:49:47,039
so in this way, no country for old men is

765
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:52,000
freighted with many many you know, bits of commentary on

766
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:58,239
our situation, but in particular, maybe we can look at

767
00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:06,039
that example and see that he's making a comment ultimately

768
00:50:06,119 --> 00:50:10,440
about that choice. You know, well, you have to have faith,

769
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:14,639
I think, and this is an element that you know,

770
00:50:14,679 --> 00:50:18,480
in theological terms or what have you, is you know,

771
00:50:18,559 --> 00:50:22,599
you have determinism, you have randomness, you have chance, you

772
00:50:22,599 --> 00:50:26,239
have evil. Well the next and these are obviously very

773
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:28,400
valid questions that as you become a man and you

774
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:30,280
grow up, you're like, fuck, I got to deal with these.

775
00:50:30,519 --> 00:50:37,159
Pardon my French. But the faith bit is is almost

776
00:50:37,199 --> 00:50:39,440
like a ghost in the room or something in the

777
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:43,440
whole book. It's it's the only answer. Uh, there is

778
00:50:43,519 --> 00:50:47,280
really no right now great answer for why this guy

779
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:51,079
would sit down to do this, this labor of love.

780
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:54,480
And again I would invite people to read that book

781
00:50:54,519 --> 00:50:58,480
again for bits like that, because it it's one of

782
00:50:58,519 --> 00:51:02,880
these cases with the movie be where there's this beautiful

783
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:05,960
harmony between the book and the film and is one

784
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:08,519
better than the other. I don't think it matters much.

785
00:51:09,079 --> 00:51:14,840
I think they're both genius, brilliant, almost near perfect. And

786
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:17,000
I feel Jay, I feel like I left your question

787
00:51:17,039 --> 00:51:22,880
on the sideline. But if I did, please drag me back. Well.

788
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:27,599
Speaker 3: And this this connects to the final scene of the

789
00:51:27,639 --> 00:51:32,679
movie where now retired Sheriff Bell is talking to his wife.

790
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:37,559
She asked him, how did you sleep, and he says,

791
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:40,480
you know, I had a I dreamt all last night

792
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:43,760
and she said, well, you know what, you're retired, you

793
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:46,440
can tell me about it now. And he recounts this

794
00:51:46,519 --> 00:51:50,119
dream in the past right in a I think he

795
00:51:50,159 --> 00:51:52,320
describes it like an olden days or something like that.

796
00:51:53,039 --> 00:51:57,280
And it's this dream where he's struggling through this blizzard

797
00:51:58,119 --> 00:52:05,079
and alongside him appears another figure with fire carried in

798
00:52:05,119 --> 00:52:08,000
a horn, which apparently is how they used to carry

799
00:52:08,039 --> 00:52:11,440
fire over long distances. He can see the heat of

800
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:14,920
the fire glowing out of this horn, and he says,

801
00:52:15,159 --> 00:52:18,239
you know, I he went past me, and I knew

802
00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:22,360
that he would keep going ahead of me, and whenever

803
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:25,760
he stopped, I would be able to arrive there and

804
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:28,280
there would be a fire out in the cold and

805
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:31,360
out in the dark, in the middle of this nighttime blizzard.

806
00:52:31,519 --> 00:52:34,440
And I think that that is exactly what you're talking about, right,

807
00:52:34,519 --> 00:52:40,440
The idea of carrying literally like the flame of civilization

808
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:46,480
forward through this dark and chaotic world on behalf of others.

809
00:52:46,559 --> 00:52:49,440
This is something we see again in Blood Meridian, right

810
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:51,599
in the very start, you know, talking about this dark

811
00:52:51,639 --> 00:52:54,880
world with a spark in it, and that spark even

812
00:52:54,960 --> 00:53:01,480
amidst dark chaos, right, this intractable blizzard in the dark.

813
00:53:01,519 --> 00:53:03,920
That is you know how McCarthy chooses to end this,

814
00:53:05,119 --> 00:53:07,960
you know that, And we see again this idea that

815
00:53:08,159 --> 00:53:10,880
you know, this sort of like random violence is not new.

816
00:53:11,079 --> 00:53:13,840
This is the state of humans, This is the state

817
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:20,519
of man. But you can carry forward sort of light,

818
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:24,559
you know, a civilization of faith, so to speak. And

819
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:28,159
I think that is right, This like a beautiful way

820
00:53:28,199 --> 00:53:31,440
to end it, because, as you've said, you use this term,

821
00:53:31,559 --> 00:53:34,719
you know, the ghost in the room, because you know,

822
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:37,519
people look at McCarthy's writings and they call they call

823
00:53:37,599 --> 00:53:39,719
him a nihilist. Do they call him a gnostic? You know,

824
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:42,360
they love to throw these kind of terms around, and

825
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:49,519
it's like, well, not really. He is describing the state

826
00:53:49,559 --> 00:53:53,039
of of fallen man. He is describing a sinful world.

827
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:55,719
But how do you escape from that? Right, how do

828
00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:59,320
you escape from this kind of animalistic violence, this kind

829
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:03,719
of you know, random slaughter. Well, he gives you a

830
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:09,000
way out, both in this and in Blood Meridian.

831
00:54:10,639 --> 00:54:12,159
Speaker 2: There's Jesu.

832
00:54:12,159 --> 00:54:13,920
Speaker 3: We're running out of time and there's so much to cover.

833
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:17,760
But there's an interesting reading of this that I've seen

834
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:21,760
multiple places, and I'm not sure how much I buy it,

835
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:25,039
but I have heard some suggest that because it's very

836
00:54:25,079 --> 00:54:30,480
notable that Sheriff Bell and Anton Sugar never interact, there's

837
00:54:30,519 --> 00:54:34,599
never an explicit meeting between the two, and so one

838
00:54:34,639 --> 00:54:38,679
reading I've I've seen is that, you know, Anton Sugar

839
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:44,440
is not real. He is Sheriff Bell trying to narrativize this,

840
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:47,840
this violence, trying to make it a person instead of

841
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:52,039
just kind of the you know, the result of human nature.

842
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:54,760
I don't know if I buy that. It's probably an

843
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:57,440
easier argument to make in the book than in the movie.

844
00:54:58,039 --> 00:55:01,960
But nonetheless, there's a really fascinating being seen. Uh you know,

845
00:55:02,559 --> 00:55:05,119
after you know, the shooting where Llewell and his gun down,

846
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:09,920
where he returns to the scene of the crime before

847
00:55:10,199 --> 00:55:12,719
you know, after after you know the scene has been

848
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:14,920
kind of shut down, he goes out to dinner with

849
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:18,119
another local sheriff and they're talking back and forth, you know,

850
00:55:18,639 --> 00:55:21,199
you know, signs and wonders. He says, you know these

851
00:55:21,679 --> 00:55:24,119
you know, the times are a changing. You know, you

852
00:55:24,119 --> 00:55:26,679
have kids in South Texas with green hair and you know,

853
00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:28,719
as he says, bones in their noses, which I found

854
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:31,960
kind of funny. But they're talking about the fact that

855
00:55:32,039 --> 00:55:34,239
this guy, you know, it's crazy psycho.

856
00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:35,000
Speaker 2: What do you do to.

857
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:37,760
Speaker 3: Defend against someone like this, the other sheriff says. But

858
00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:39,800
they talk about the fact that he always returns to

859
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:43,199
the scene of the crime. And when Sheriff Bell returns,

860
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:47,320
he sees, well, the lock is shot out. This is

861
00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:50,039
sort of Sugar's calling card. He uses this you know,

862
00:55:50,079 --> 00:55:54,400
euthanation device to very dramatically blow the lock out of

863
00:55:54,440 --> 00:55:57,960
the door, and we see this shot of Sugar standing

864
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:01,039
in the room with his kind of a silent shotgun

865
00:56:01,119 --> 00:56:04,039
right waiting behind the door. But when the sheriff opens

866
00:56:04,039 --> 00:56:08,280
the door, there's no one there. So I'm curious. I

867
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:10,920
realized that is a reading, and not even necessarily one

868
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:13,280
I agree with, but I thought it was worth mentioning Andy,

869
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:14,159
do you see anything there?

870
00:56:15,079 --> 00:56:18,719
Speaker 2: Absolutely? Yeah, I don't believe that reading. I don't think

871
00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:22,280
I agree with it either. It's cool because it sort

872
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:28,239
of draws these you know, into like relief, the fact

873
00:56:28,239 --> 00:56:32,519
that there is this attempt to grapple, like via a

874
00:56:32,599 --> 00:56:39,559
narrative or finding an individual like to embody something like

875
00:56:39,599 --> 00:56:44,800
an eagergre or a spiritual fact. But in terms of

876
00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:49,039
the you know, how it really goes. I always took

877
00:56:49,079 --> 00:56:53,280
that that scene and maybe I'm just reading into it myself,

878
00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:57,360
but I took it to mean that Sheriff Bell returns

879
00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:02,599
Sugar is in the space. Whether he's in the under

880
00:57:02,639 --> 00:57:06,199
the bed or in the bathroom of the hotel room

881
00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:09,119
or what have you, or if he's you know, behind

882
00:57:09,119 --> 00:57:13,559
some other door, he's there. And I and I took

883
00:57:13,599 --> 00:57:16,719
it to mean that Bell knows he's in there and

884
00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:23,360
just simply by entering that space, like we we see

885
00:57:23,559 --> 00:57:26,199
the limit. You know, it's it. He's an old man.

886
00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:29,000
Another way to interpret that title, by the way, you know,

887
00:57:29,199 --> 00:57:34,000
is young men. This is a world for young men. Yeah,

888
00:57:34,039 --> 00:57:36,679
old men are done. Like if that's what it's going

889
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:39,679
to be, where we're going to turn the reins over.

890
00:57:39,719 --> 00:57:41,760
And we talk about this all the time, right, like

891
00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:47,679
I mean the octagenarian congress that we have and I

892
00:57:47,719 --> 00:57:53,840
have gen X. I can't name a single person in arts,

893
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:56,119
politics or anything we've just.

894
00:57:56,000 --> 00:58:02,480
Speaker 3: Been Oh you have Dan Crenshaw, right, thank you, well

895
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:04,000
you've got a couple.

896
00:58:04,599 --> 00:58:10,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, my god. So uh, I always took that to

897
00:58:10,159 --> 00:58:14,440
mean that it's kind of this confirmation for us that like,

898
00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:19,039
on the one hand, like, you know, good job, old timer.

899
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:21,480
I mean, he probably shouldn't be in this position. He

900
00:58:21,519 --> 00:58:25,039
should have you know, a swat team with him and

901
00:58:25,039 --> 00:58:28,199
and younger dudes at his side, and he makes it's

902
00:58:28,239 --> 00:58:31,239
it's almost like an old dog or something like, just

903
00:58:31,239 --> 00:58:34,880
just let him retire. He did the best he could.

904
00:58:36,880 --> 00:58:38,880
That's how I took that scene. But again I might

905
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:42,079
be uh, just reading into it what I want to see.

906
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:45,079
And as far as far as you know, the very

907
00:58:45,199 --> 00:58:50,320
last bit where the sheriff is having this conversation about

908
00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:56,079
his dream, I think you're exactly right, like you Bullseye

909
00:58:56,119 --> 00:58:59,840
on that one where there's the father, he's having this

910
00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:04,039
of the father. The part that the line that adds

911
00:59:04,119 --> 00:59:08,119
so much tension ambiguity, I guess is where he says

912
00:59:08,159 --> 00:59:11,840
I woke up. Well. To me, that's that's just yet

913
00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:14,880
again confirmation of everything else that we sort of said

914
00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:20,159
with respect to faith that maybe it's that generation, maybe

915
00:59:20,199 --> 00:59:25,400
it's something about the Texas sheriff line, maybe it's something

916
00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:28,400
about Texans in general. I don't know, or maybe it's

917
00:59:29,360 --> 00:59:31,480
you know, neither here nor there, but the fact that

918
00:59:31,639 --> 00:59:34,280
this man chooses at this point in his life. You know,

919
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:37,159
there's I don't recall in the book if there's mention

920
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:41,159
of children that Sheriff Bell has children, there's none at

921
00:59:41,199 --> 00:59:43,639
the table, and there's none mentioned in the movie. And

922
00:59:43,719 --> 00:59:50,239
so that's kind of striking in that maybe maybe what

923
00:59:50,239 --> 00:59:54,320
we're getting here is the completion, like of this man's

924
00:59:54,440 --> 01:00:00,320
arc where he didn't fully live out, you know, everything

925
01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:02,039
that was tasked to him, and he does have to

926
01:00:02,079 --> 01:00:04,719
go away and with a little bit of shame because

927
01:00:06,679 --> 01:00:08,159
I'll say this, then shut up, because I know we're

928
01:00:08,199 --> 01:00:11,559
running out of time. This idea of the fire being

929
01:00:11,559 --> 01:00:16,559
carried in a horn into time, into the darkness. You know,

930
01:00:16,599 --> 01:00:19,920
we pick right back up with this exact same imagery

931
01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:24,440
with The Road, where we have the father literally carrying

932
01:00:24,760 --> 01:00:27,639
the fire. I mean they repeat this line over and

933
01:00:27,719 --> 01:00:31,440
over in the book The Road. And I think that

934
01:00:31,679 --> 01:00:34,159
in some ways this is McCarthy just saying, look, I

935
01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:37,880
cannot compress this inner vision that I have down to

936
01:00:37,960 --> 01:00:40,920
a simpler thing. And I don't think he's being condescending.

937
01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:42,920
I don't think he's playing for the crowd or trying

938
01:00:42,960 --> 01:00:46,519
to make money. I think that he wound out in

939
01:00:46,639 --> 01:00:51,719
his genius as this is what I get to offer you, Jay,

940
01:00:52,119 --> 01:00:55,880
you Andy. And that's why I think what we love

941
01:00:56,039 --> 01:00:59,400
McCarthy so much is he's the real thing. This is

942
01:00:59,440 --> 01:01:04,119
an earnest Mom. Why did they call it Scottish cheese?

943
01:01:04,199 --> 01:01:05,480
This cottage cheese, Honey?

944
01:01:05,599 --> 01:01:06,920
Speaker 1: And I'm not sure.

945
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:10,119
Speaker 3: Did dogs in other countries speak different languages?

946
01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:10,719
Speaker 2: Yeah?

947
01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:11,440
Speaker 4: I think so.

948
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:13,840
Speaker 2: When when we get there, well, we've got to fix

949
01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:16,119
the car first. But there's someone coming to help us.

950
01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:20,840
Is it the man from Geneva? Not Geneva, he's from Aviva.

951
01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:22,079
Oh there's a van now.

952
01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:25,400
Speaker 4: For car insurance with breakdown rescue, it takes a Viva

953
01:01:25,719 --> 01:01:29,159
visit a Viva Dota eat to say fifteen percent acceptance criteria,

954
01:01:29,239 --> 01:01:31,599
terms and conditions apply. Minimum premium of three hundred and

955
01:01:31,599 --> 01:01:34,000
ten year old. Fifteen percent discant applies to new policies

956
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:37,440
BottomLine see Aviva Dotta ev details. Car insurance is underwritten

957
01:01:37,440 --> 01:01:40,119
by a Viva Insurance Ireland DAK. Aviva Direct Arland Limited

958
01:01:40,239 --> 01:01:42,000
is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland.

959
01:01:42,679 --> 01:01:47,679
Speaker 2: It communicate to us, this isn't irony, This isn't playing

960
01:01:47,719 --> 01:01:50,000
to the crowd and for the money, like this is

961
01:01:50,039 --> 01:01:53,480
the real thing, and that's how I take it. And

962
01:01:53,519 --> 01:01:55,840
so that's why these you know, his work in these

963
01:01:55,880 --> 01:01:59,280
movies are are so moving and important to me.

964
01:02:01,199 --> 01:02:05,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, So two things there. I think there is one

965
01:02:05,559 --> 01:02:08,920
very explicit mention of children, which is that scene we

966
01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:13,719
mentioned earlier with Anton Sugar flipping the coin for the

967
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:17,480
life of the gas station attendant, right, because he yess him,

968
01:02:17,559 --> 01:02:19,480
you know, do you have any children? You're married? And

969
01:02:19,519 --> 01:02:22,039
he does, right, he's the wrong life and he's sort

970
01:02:22,039 --> 01:02:25,639
of retired. Interesting note there one more point on the

971
01:02:25,719 --> 01:02:29,440
element of randomness. Actually, and I think the only on

972
01:02:29,519 --> 01:02:33,559
screen appearance of children in this entire entire book or

973
01:02:33,639 --> 01:02:38,000
movie rather is the way Anton Sugar leaves this movie.

974
01:02:38,719 --> 01:02:43,239
So he is he has killed Llewellyn's wife well after

975
01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:45,239
the fact to sort of, you know, make do on

976
01:02:45,320 --> 01:02:48,280
this promise that he made to a man he would

977
01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:51,519
end up killing, I guess indirectly or directly, it's not

978
01:02:51,519 --> 01:02:59,039
explicitly said. But when he when he leaves, he just

979
01:02:59,239 --> 01:03:02,079
gets into her car and drives away. Something you see repeated.

980
01:03:02,159 --> 01:03:08,199
He's constantly murdering people for their vehicles, but he's driving

981
01:03:08,239 --> 01:03:11,119
through the suburban neighborhood and you know there are kids

982
01:03:11,119 --> 01:03:13,960
behind him on a bike and he goes through one

983
01:03:14,239 --> 01:03:17,239
stoplight and then he looks in his rearview mirror and

984
01:03:17,559 --> 01:03:23,199
out of nowhere a car just t bones him, completely random.

985
01:03:23,400 --> 01:03:25,239
This is not a person coming to get him, as

986
01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:29,400
just a simple traffic accident, and he is on He

987
01:03:29,440 --> 01:03:32,880
gets out on the side of the road. His arm

988
01:03:33,000 --> 01:03:35,679
is poking through this or is you know, the bone

989
01:03:35,679 --> 01:03:38,039
in his arm is poking through the skin. These two

990
01:03:38,119 --> 01:03:42,079
kids right up and in sort of an interesting parallel

991
01:03:42,320 --> 01:03:46,519
to the scene with llewell And in Mexico, he hands

992
01:03:46,559 --> 01:03:49,800
them a bloody one hundred dollars bill or his shirt

993
01:03:50,039 --> 01:03:52,519
something again you saw llewel and do earlier. Kind of

994
01:03:52,519 --> 01:03:58,239
a lighting two moments there and he just walks off.

995
01:03:58,599 --> 01:04:02,239
He gets up and leaps. This is also the most

996
01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:06,079
injured we have seen him. He Llewelyn shot him, certainly,

997
01:04:06,480 --> 01:04:09,119
but he was able to patch himself up. He goes

998
01:04:09,159 --> 01:04:12,079
into a pharmacy, you know, raids it for supplies. Another

999
01:04:12,119 --> 01:04:15,599
great scene, but I think it's interesting again that element

1000
01:04:15,639 --> 01:04:19,320
of a randomness. You know, this this man who is

1001
01:04:19,360 --> 01:04:21,920
a determinist, right, who believes that everything has sort of

1002
01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:24,559
set out. The most he is injured is by pure

1003
01:04:24,639 --> 01:04:27,519
random chance. I think that's sort of an interesting element

1004
01:04:27,559 --> 01:04:28,360
to the film as well.

1005
01:04:28,840 --> 01:04:32,599
Speaker 2: Absolutely great point. I yeah, and with the children too,

1006
01:04:34,119 --> 01:04:37,960
they're I mean, I don't really hold this against those children,

1007
01:04:38,360 --> 01:04:40,039
but they do seem to kind of go along with

1008
01:04:40,079 --> 01:04:43,000
the program, right, Like the kids are kind of already corrupt.

1009
01:04:43,480 --> 01:04:45,719
They give this guy the shirt, they cover up for

1010
01:04:45,800 --> 01:04:48,800
him apparently. I think in the book he leaves his gun,

1011
01:04:49,400 --> 01:04:51,679
Sugar leaves his gun maybe in the car, or the

1012
01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:54,519
kid winds up with the gun or something like that.

1013
01:04:55,199 --> 01:04:58,280
So Sheriff Bell comes around, pardon me, and it winds

1014
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:00,960
up speaking to one of those kids who is pretty

1015
01:05:01,000 --> 01:05:05,679
much mute on the topic. And yeah, great point because

1016
01:05:05,719 --> 01:05:09,880
that scene, once again, it's like this incredible compression and

1017
01:05:10,039 --> 01:05:15,639
layering throughout the movie that must function in some way

1018
01:05:15,719 --> 01:05:22,679
to like amplify these these bigger issues, because you're right,

1019
01:05:22,760 --> 01:05:27,440
I mean randomness. In the end, his choice to go

1020
01:05:27,639 --> 01:05:31,360
to believe in this is what probably takes him out,

1021
01:05:32,079 --> 01:05:36,840
or at least takes him down a notch. Anyway, So Andy,

1022
01:05:37,159 --> 01:05:37,880
we're over time.

1023
01:05:38,079 --> 01:05:41,360
Speaker 3: This has been great. Before we you know, wrap this up.

1024
01:05:41,360 --> 01:05:42,960
I just want to say, watch this movie. It's like

1025
01:05:43,000 --> 01:05:45,519
two hours long. It's not hard to watch. The book

1026
01:05:45,559 --> 01:05:48,360
is not long either. Both of them are are well

1027
01:05:48,400 --> 01:05:52,719
worth your time. But that said, man, where can people

1028
01:05:52,760 --> 01:05:54,159
find you and where can they find your work?

1029
01:05:55,840 --> 01:06:01,159
Speaker 2: You know at X it's Golden Goat gild and that's

1030
01:06:01,199 --> 01:06:05,679
the main place right now. Yeah, check it out, check

1031
01:06:05,679 --> 01:06:08,480
out the books. And thanks for having me. This was

1032
01:06:08,519 --> 01:06:09,079
a lot of fun.

1033
01:06:09,960 --> 01:06:11,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, sure thing, man, we'll have to do this again.

1034
01:06:12,920 --> 01:06:18,480
I enjoy watching and talking about movies, and there's so

1035
01:06:18,559 --> 01:06:21,639
much to pull from. I've told you before we went live.

1036
01:06:21,679 --> 01:06:26,320
I mentioned it on air. My hatred for modern cinema

1037
01:06:26,519 --> 01:06:29,960
really cannot be understated. Every time I go to the

1038
01:06:29,960 --> 01:06:33,079
movie theater, I end up leaving in a rage for

1039
01:06:33,119 --> 01:06:35,440
any number of reasons. And so to go back and

1040
01:06:35,480 --> 01:06:37,280
find a film like this, which you know, like I said,

1041
01:06:37,320 --> 01:06:40,119
I've saw before, but there's so much depth to it,

1042
01:06:40,119 --> 01:06:43,639
it's really well worth it. We'll maybe get into some

1043
01:06:43,719 --> 01:06:46,800
parallels when we talk about your book King of Dogs,

1044
01:06:46,960 --> 01:06:50,400
but there are interesting parallels between No Country for Old

1045
01:06:50,440 --> 01:06:53,679
Men and your first novel. In fact, there's actually a

1046
01:06:54,039 --> 01:06:56,880
scene in the movie that reminded me very much of

1047
01:06:57,159 --> 01:07:00,559
you know. Well, actually i'll just say it when well

1048
01:07:00,639 --> 01:07:04,119
it is running away from this attack Dog. There's a

1049
01:07:04,159 --> 01:07:06,880
similar scene in your book. I won't spoil it, but

1050
01:07:07,000 --> 01:07:09,960
check that out. Both At and Crowbar are quite good.

1051
01:07:10,280 --> 01:07:11,039
I've enjoyed them.

1052
01:07:11,079 --> 01:07:11,360
Speaker 2: Both.

1053
01:07:12,119 --> 01:07:14,480
Speaker 3: Thomas seven to seven seven, who you recorded some with,

1054
01:07:14,599 --> 01:07:17,599
recently enjoyed them as well. Check those out and Andy

1055
01:07:17,679 --> 01:07:20,599
will have to have you back on soon. As far

1056
01:07:20,639 --> 01:07:23,639
as my stuff, Jay Burton Show, Apple, Spotify, YouTube, this

1057
01:07:23,679 --> 01:07:26,559
podcast is viewer supported. I couldn't do it without you, guys,

1058
01:07:26,920 --> 01:07:28,519
and the best way to support the show is to

1059
01:07:28,639 --> 01:07:31,679
give me money in exchange for giving me money on substack,

1060
01:07:31,760 --> 01:07:34,760
Patreon or gum Road. Get the episodes early in ad free.

1061
01:07:34,800 --> 01:07:36,880
I know the ads are irritating, but they pay my

1062
01:07:36,960 --> 01:07:39,639
mortgage and I do need to live somewhere, so I

1063
01:07:39,719 --> 01:07:42,880
appreciate that. Guys. You can also check out our sponsor,

1064
01:07:42,960 --> 01:07:46,239
Axios Remote Fitness Coaching. I was actually just chatting with

1065
01:07:46,360 --> 01:07:49,960
JD because this is my favorite flannel and I can't

1066
01:07:49,960 --> 01:07:52,800
fit my arms in it anymore, which is an inconvenient

1067
01:07:52,840 --> 01:07:55,039
problem to have, but sort of a testimonial for what

1068
01:07:55,119 --> 01:07:59,360
JD does. Again, any man, this was so much fun, dude. Likewise,

1069
01:08:00,639 --> 01:08:03,320
everyone know, keep your head up. I can't last forever.

1070
01:08:03,519 --> 01:08:35,039
Speaker 4: Good night, h.