WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:00.760 Hello everyone. 2 00:00:00.880 --> 00:00:02.839 My name is Frieda Baizel and I'm in New York City, 3 00:00:02.879 --> 00:00:07.759 Brooklyn based Jewish YouTuber with an interest in Jewish life, religion, subcultures, 4 00:00:07.799 --> 00:00:12.199 and human stories. Today, I'm speaking with Rabbi David Baschefkin, 5 00:00:12.519 --> 00:00:15.560 one of the most prominent Jewish podcasters and intellectual voices 6 00:00:15.560 --> 00:00:18.359 in the modern Orthodox community, and the host of the 7 00:00:18.399 --> 00:00:22.800 eighteen forty podcast. Rabbi Baschefkin or David is known for 8 00:00:22.879 --> 00:00:26.640 asking hard questions about faith, doubt, Israel, and communal life, 9 00:00:26.800 --> 00:00:30.160 but he asks them from within Orthodoxy, as someone deeply 10 00:00:30.239 --> 00:00:33.719 embedded in the world he's examining. I often ask similar 11 00:00:33.840 --> 00:00:37.119 questions from the outside. His audience tends to be inside 12 00:00:37.159 --> 00:00:39.920 the community. I think mine often stands at the margin 13 00:00:40.039 --> 00:00:44.359 or outside. There's a lot of overlap and also meaningful difference. 14 00:00:44.840 --> 00:00:47.359 I'm interested in learning about him, and I'm especially interested 15 00:00:47.399 --> 00:00:50.759 in what he's seeing and experiencing right now, the challenges, 16 00:00:50.799 --> 00:00:53.320 the tensions, the insights of the moment from the very 17 00:00:53.320 --> 00:00:56.759 particular bird's eye view he occupies within the Jewish world, 18 00:00:56.960 --> 00:01:00.679 and so I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Before 19 00:01:00.719 --> 00:01:02.439 we begin, I want to thank those of you who 20 00:01:02.439 --> 00:01:05.319 are channel members and help make this work possible. I 21 00:01:05.359 --> 00:01:09.040 published videos early for channel members, but all my videos 22 00:01:09.159 --> 00:01:13.840 later get published to everyone. I appreciate all of you members, subscribers, viewers, 23 00:01:13.840 --> 00:01:17.719 and commenters for helping make this work possible. Thank you, 24 00:01:18.239 --> 00:01:20.879 and thank you David so much for being here. 25 00:01:21.280 --> 00:01:23.079 Thank you so much for having me. For you to 26 00:01:23.120 --> 00:01:24.439 this is such a treat. 27 00:01:25.000 --> 00:01:28.239 You know, when I prepared for this interview, I thought, 28 00:01:28.400 --> 00:01:31.640 it's I think you're the only Orthodox podcast that had me. 29 00:01:31.680 --> 00:01:36.319 On, which is bizarre to me. I mean, I've been 30 00:01:36.359 --> 00:01:41.239 following your work for some time. I think liminal personalities, 31 00:01:41.280 --> 00:01:44.680 you know, people who have lived with multiple identities, embedded 32 00:01:44.719 --> 00:01:49.359 in multiple communities have an insight into each community that 33 00:01:49.400 --> 00:01:51.840 they have a pinky toe in or a you know, 34 00:01:51.879 --> 00:01:55.280 a little bit of a part of themselves in. And 35 00:01:55.359 --> 00:01:58.920 I just find that the very fact. And we spoke 36 00:01:58.959 --> 00:02:01.560 about this when I entered viewed you like the work 37 00:02:01.599 --> 00:02:03.319 that you do. I think you're the one who you 38 00:02:03.519 --> 00:02:08.080 use the term cultural translation is so important now and 39 00:02:08.120 --> 00:02:12.199 we have this gift called the Internet which allows us 40 00:02:12.199 --> 00:02:17.240 to communicate and shed windows and collapse geographic distances, so 41 00:02:17.360 --> 00:02:20.680 to be sharing stories with the Jewish world, with the 42 00:02:21.280 --> 00:02:23.680 global world, not just the Jewish world, with the non 43 00:02:23.719 --> 00:02:26.199 Jewish world and giving them an insight of what authentic 44 00:02:26.319 --> 00:02:29.840 Jewish life is about. I think it's extraordinarily holy work. 45 00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:32.520 I was so excited when you came onto mind. I mean, 46 00:02:32.560 --> 00:02:36.719 you're you're really really a role model in this world 47 00:02:36.800 --> 00:02:43.000 of helping present an authentic view of internal religious life, 48 00:02:43.159 --> 00:02:44.639 like insider religious life. 49 00:02:44.719 --> 00:02:47.759 Yeah, I really appreciate it. Thank you, Devid. 50 00:02:47.800 --> 00:02:51.199 And also I feel like it reflects your particular unique 51 00:02:51.319 --> 00:02:55.800 role as a Jewish voice that you were willing to 52 00:02:55.919 --> 00:02:59.800 platform me. You do, I'm sure understand why other places 53 00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:04.360 it'd be uncomfortable platforming me. So I wonder if you 54 00:03:04.400 --> 00:03:07.439 can just describe to me and to the people who 55 00:03:08.120 --> 00:03:13.159 watch my videos what your work is about and where 56 00:03:13.199 --> 00:03:13.960 it comes from. 57 00:03:14.319 --> 00:03:15.599 Is that a very difficult ask? 58 00:03:15.919 --> 00:03:19.719 No, it's it's great. It's a question that I constantly 59 00:03:19.800 --> 00:03:23.159 am asking myself because the only way to keep stamina 60 00:03:23.599 --> 00:03:27.400 of producing content online, even the word content makes me 61 00:03:27.479 --> 00:03:30.759 a little bit exhausted and tired. The only way to 62 00:03:30.759 --> 00:03:32.879 do this is to be mission oriented, is to really 63 00:03:32.919 --> 00:03:36.879 have a purpose beyond clicks. You're really trying to share 64 00:03:36.919 --> 00:03:42.319 something unique. And we started eighteen forty which is a 65 00:03:42.439 --> 00:03:44.759 very strange name for a podcast. It would have been 66 00:03:44.840 --> 00:03:47.560 much easier to just do I don't know, d Bash 67 00:03:47.719 --> 00:03:49.919 or David Bechefkin or whatever it is. 68 00:03:50.159 --> 00:03:51.319 Why eighteen forty? 69 00:03:51.599 --> 00:03:55.319 Yeah, why eighteen forty? And that's really what our mission was. 70 00:03:55.800 --> 00:04:00.759 Eighteen forty has significance in both the particular Jewish world 71 00:04:01.159 --> 00:04:03.639 as well as the broader world. We'll start in the 72 00:04:03.639 --> 00:04:08.039 broader world. Eighteen forty is really a turning point culturally 73 00:04:08.439 --> 00:04:15.840 where we see industrialization, globalization, celebrity culture, the individuation of 74 00:04:15.879 --> 00:04:19.160 the modern world is really starting to emerge beginning in 75 00:04:19.199 --> 00:04:22.519 eighteen forty. And in the Jewish world this took on 76 00:04:22.839 --> 00:04:26.800 a life of its own because in the Zohar, which 77 00:04:26.839 --> 00:04:31.279 is one of the most famous central canonized mystical texts 78 00:04:31.639 --> 00:04:38.639 that Jews study, the eighteen forty corresponds to the sixth millennia, 79 00:04:38.800 --> 00:04:41.600 the sixth century of the sixth millennia, That is eighteen 80 00:04:41.639 --> 00:04:44.439 forty on the Jewish calendar, right in the Jewish year. 81 00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:47.120 We're not in the year twenty twenty six. We have 82 00:04:47.199 --> 00:04:50.600 our own count, our own calendar, and on the Jewish calendar, 83 00:04:50.720 --> 00:04:54.079 eighteen forty is the sixth century of the sixth millennia, 84 00:04:54.160 --> 00:04:57.199 which the Zohar says there's going to be a bottom 85 00:04:57.360 --> 00:05:01.560 up rising of a th first for knowledge, a thirst 86 00:05:01.600 --> 00:05:07.000 for a personalized religious engagement where it's not so institutional, 87 00:05:07.079 --> 00:05:11.040 it's much more personal, it's much more accessible. And the 88 00:05:11.079 --> 00:05:14.639 world that I was seeing around me when I started 89 00:05:14.639 --> 00:05:17.560 in twenty twenty, it felt in many ways like we 90 00:05:17.560 --> 00:05:22.279 were repeating this eighteen forty moment that there, you know, 91 00:05:22.519 --> 00:05:26.000 COVID was happening then, so I remembered this feeling of 92 00:05:26.160 --> 00:05:29.639 like me and the Tonight Show have basically been reduced 93 00:05:29.879 --> 00:05:33.519 to the same quality of technology and broadcasting, like we 94 00:05:33.560 --> 00:05:36.000 all have our own talk shows. Now we all have 95 00:05:36.120 --> 00:05:39.839 this ability to formulate and articulate what is our approach 96 00:05:39.879 --> 00:05:42.240 to life, how do we see others, how do we 97 00:05:42.279 --> 00:05:46.240 bring others in conversation, share our values? And what eighteen 98 00:05:46.319 --> 00:05:51.879 forty to me was trying to do was discuss issues 99 00:05:51.920 --> 00:05:56.480 in an honest and authentic way related to Jewish life. 100 00:05:57.000 --> 00:05:59.959 That was really the main thing. And as we started 101 00:06:00.959 --> 00:06:05.199 developing more and more, I think my articulation of what 102 00:06:05.199 --> 00:06:07.680 we were trying to accomplish became more and more precise, 103 00:06:08.199 --> 00:06:11.240 where the way I describe it now is what we're 104 00:06:11.240 --> 00:06:14.439 really trying to be is like a base medrish, a 105 00:06:14.519 --> 00:06:18.319 study hole that is the Hebrew term, the Yiddish term 106 00:06:18.439 --> 00:06:21.959 for a house of study where people normally sit in 107 00:06:22.000 --> 00:06:24.480 front of texts, in front of Talmud's and to be 108 00:06:24.600 --> 00:06:28.240 a study hole not for text, but for Jewish life itself, 109 00:06:28.680 --> 00:06:31.720 to be a base Measriish for the Jewish people, for 110 00:06:31.839 --> 00:06:35.040 where Jews can learn about one another's struggles in a 111 00:06:35.199 --> 00:06:39.600 very real way, in an authentic way. What are you 112 00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:43.319 grappling with? Because I believe, and I believe this to 113 00:06:43.399 --> 00:06:46.920 my core, that the same way that you develop an 114 00:06:47.000 --> 00:06:52.879 understanding of Judaism through classical texts, through the Bible, through codes, 115 00:06:53.079 --> 00:06:56.160 through all of these things, there is an equal amount 116 00:06:56.279 --> 00:06:59.800 to learn about Jewish life and divinity by just talking 117 00:06:59.800 --> 00:07:02.839 to other Jews. And that's really what it's become. To 118 00:07:03.560 --> 00:07:08.639 really try to understand and develop a vision that can, 119 00:07:09.560 --> 00:07:14.000 even in potential, reach the entirety of the Jewish people, 120 00:07:14.120 --> 00:07:16.879 a vision of Yiddish kaid, a vision of Jewish life 121 00:07:16.920 --> 00:07:19.240 that can reach beyond those who have had the gift 122 00:07:19.319 --> 00:07:22.959 of a Jewish education and articulate a vision of what 123 00:07:23.079 --> 00:07:25.879 Jewish life can and should be for the broader world. 124 00:07:26.079 --> 00:07:28.879 Is eighteen forty your biggest project right now? 125 00:07:29.680 --> 00:07:32.879 Yeah, it occupies a great deal of my time, the 126 00:07:32.920 --> 00:07:36.000 struggles of it. Yeah. I also teach a Yahiv University. 127 00:07:36.879 --> 00:07:40.040 I'm a Rebbie. I'm an educator. At my core, I'm 128 00:07:40.040 --> 00:07:43.079 an educator. I started, you know, writing. I used to 129 00:07:43.120 --> 00:07:46.519 write a humor column for mishbacha magazine, which is one 130 00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:50.240 of the kind of the insider Jewish weekly is probably 131 00:07:50.279 --> 00:07:53.800 the most popular, high quality magazine that comes out every week. 132 00:07:54.759 --> 00:07:57.079 And I've written a few books. I was interested in 133 00:07:57.160 --> 00:08:00.480 academia a little bit, but really the bulk of my 134 00:08:00.639 --> 00:08:04.319 time is split between teaching and Shiva University and really 135 00:08:04.360 --> 00:08:08.639 building the groundwork of eighteen forty, which has multiple spokes. 136 00:08:08.639 --> 00:08:11.720 We have a podcast. We do something called I Read 137 00:08:11.759 --> 00:08:15.920 This over Shabists, where we encourage Shabist reading people post. 138 00:08:16.360 --> 00:08:18.959 We have a lot about book culture to try to 139 00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:23.560 to try to remind people where to find ideas that 140 00:08:23.639 --> 00:08:27.439 are richly presented, not just thirty second reels, which I've 141 00:08:27.639 --> 00:08:30.160 become as excess that's done. I like advertising the beauty 142 00:08:30.160 --> 00:08:32.519 of shabist to our listeners. Yeah. 143 00:08:32.720 --> 00:08:34.720 I think you first came on my radar through the 144 00:08:34.919 --> 00:08:38.480 I read this over Shabbas Twitter situation, which is really 145 00:08:38.480 --> 00:08:40.000 fun where people share what. 146 00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:41.360 They had spend shabis reading. 147 00:08:41.600 --> 00:08:46.000 Yeah, I have to say I find shabis really really difficult. 148 00:08:46.159 --> 00:08:49.879 I'm not showing for shabist myself, which I feel uncomfortable saying, 149 00:08:49.919 --> 00:08:52.200 and I hope it's not offensive, but that's the truth. 150 00:08:52.720 --> 00:08:56.440 And I've often asked myself, how can I trick myself 151 00:08:56.440 --> 00:09:00.200 into keeping shabas, because I really would like to, Like 152 00:09:00.240 --> 00:09:03.120 it's something that would be nice to do, and especially 153 00:09:03.200 --> 00:09:05.960 it would help me participate with things that I that 154 00:09:06.039 --> 00:09:07.720 I want to Like. My mother was sick and it 155 00:09:07.759 --> 00:09:11.120 was like I wasn't able to take on any help 156 00:09:11.159 --> 00:09:13.120 on Shabist because I felt like I can't. I just 157 00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:16.200 can't do all of these shabbiest things. But anyway, I 158 00:09:16.240 --> 00:09:19.639 keep telling myself, if I do Shabbis, I'll read books, 159 00:09:20.240 --> 00:09:21.159 and that's like a sell. 160 00:09:21.759 --> 00:09:25.559 I think that's one of our distinctions is that you 161 00:09:25.559 --> 00:09:28.320 you shine a window. You kind of lived and set 162 00:09:28.399 --> 00:09:32.759 up camp from outside of your community, your childhood community. 163 00:09:33.240 --> 00:09:36.519 I still live very much within the community. We're both 164 00:09:36.559 --> 00:09:39.919 creating windows, but the question is I feel like I'm 165 00:09:39.960 --> 00:09:42.879 inside the community creating a window. Both for insiders and 166 00:09:42.919 --> 00:09:46.120 outsiders to see one another, and you're on the outside 167 00:09:46.200 --> 00:09:49.440 helping outsiders kind of look into insiders, and in very 168 00:09:49.519 --> 00:09:53.080 much you're also helping insiders see the outside world, how 169 00:09:53.080 --> 00:09:56.279 they are seen and how they're understood. My thing with 170 00:09:56.360 --> 00:09:59.159 shab is the struggle with shop. I struggle with shabi 171 00:09:59.200 --> 00:10:03.159 is also particularly in my twenties. It's a team sport. 172 00:10:03.240 --> 00:10:07.639 It's the only commandment in the Torah that is prefaced 173 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:11.480 with the verb in Hebrew vayakel, which means to gather. 174 00:10:11.559 --> 00:10:15.559 It's the same term meaning kihila, which is community. It 175 00:10:15.679 --> 00:10:20.600 is really hard. It's a litmus test of one's communal alignment. 176 00:10:21.480 --> 00:10:24.559 Shabis can be very difficult and challenging if you don't 177 00:10:24.600 --> 00:10:27.639 have a community to practice it with, if you don't 178 00:10:27.679 --> 00:10:32.080 feel embedded within community. I think so in my twenties, 179 00:10:32.120 --> 00:10:35.200 when I was single and lost, I struggled a great 180 00:10:35.240 --> 00:10:37.559 deal with shabas. Shabis was not the joy that has 181 00:10:37.600 --> 00:10:40.120 become for me now, and I haven't forget that. I 182 00:10:40.120 --> 00:10:43.679 haven't forgotten that period, which is why I as much 183 00:10:43.720 --> 00:10:47.000 as I love talking about schabis, it comes from an 184 00:10:47.000 --> 00:10:50.039 appreciation both of its beauty but also of its struggles. 185 00:10:50.080 --> 00:10:52.360 Like I grew up with shabis. I grew up with 186 00:10:52.399 --> 00:10:55.279 a stressed out father who would you know, zoom in 187 00:10:55.559 --> 00:10:58.399 right before Shaba's beginning, and you couldn't talk to him, 188 00:10:58.399 --> 00:11:00.759 and it was really like fright thing as a kid. 189 00:11:01.080 --> 00:11:05.039 Those moments of words are so hectic, so chaotic. I 190 00:11:05.200 --> 00:11:09.480 understand why for many people it becomes a struggle. And 191 00:11:09.519 --> 00:11:13.039 you know that's something. This is where I feel the 192 00:11:13.039 --> 00:11:16.480 there's work internally as a community that we need to 193 00:11:16.559 --> 00:11:20.200 do to help people who are either on the margins, 194 00:11:20.279 --> 00:11:23.399 right in between, or even all the way outside to 195 00:11:23.519 --> 00:11:26.279 kind of even see a spot or a future for 196 00:11:26.360 --> 00:11:28.960 themselves within the Jewish community. 197 00:11:29.600 --> 00:11:33.120 Yeah. I appreciate what you're saying because I interview Danielle Jacobs, 198 00:11:33.159 --> 00:11:40.519 who calls herself from Or. She's Shomashabas and she's divorced. Wonderful, 199 00:11:40.559 --> 00:11:42.919 wonderful person. I don't know if you know you Heel Jacobs, 200 00:11:42.960 --> 00:11:43.600 the comedian. 201 00:11:44.200 --> 00:11:46.600 Okay, so he's very. 202 00:11:46.480 --> 00:11:50.279 Sebastian man of Scalco imitation. That's spot on. It's fantastic. 203 00:11:50.840 --> 00:11:56.120 Really, I only know his imitation of oh God, the lemur, 204 00:11:56.320 --> 00:11:59.639 you know, the lead. He's very funny. 205 00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:01.879 You fail, Let's bring enjoy to the world. 206 00:12:02.320 --> 00:12:03.200 Yeah, exactly. 207 00:12:03.279 --> 00:12:07.679 So his mom is also very talented singer, dance, or actress, everything. 208 00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:10.440 And I interviewed her in her story Story Moving, and 209 00:12:10.519 --> 00:12:12.919 she talked about how difficult it is she finds to 210 00:12:13.000 --> 00:12:18.000 keep shabas as someone who keeps shabast but is not married. 211 00:12:18.159 --> 00:12:21.240 And I got a lot of responses from Orthodox people 212 00:12:21.240 --> 00:12:23.039 are like, how can I reach her? I want to 213 00:12:23.080 --> 00:12:25.279 invite her for Shabbist, which I don't think is the point. 214 00:12:25.360 --> 00:12:29.200 I don't think people she's looking for invites. She's looking 215 00:12:29.240 --> 00:12:30.879 for a structural. 216 00:12:30.480 --> 00:12:35.679 Coalation exactly exactly. And I think in many ways, you know, 217 00:12:36.360 --> 00:12:41.159 shabis is a prototypical from the eighteen forty lens is 218 00:12:41.240 --> 00:12:44.679 we're able to discuss both its beauty. It's I think 219 00:12:44.679 --> 00:12:48.399 it's urgency. In this moment in time, with the over 220 00:12:48.559 --> 00:12:53.240 encroachment of technology, people feel the urgency of shabists more 221 00:12:53.279 --> 00:12:56.639 than ever. But they also feel as it becomes more urgent, 222 00:12:56.720 --> 00:12:59.080 in many ways, it becomes more difficult. They go hand 223 00:12:59.159 --> 00:13:01.799 in hand. It's very interesting. You know, shabas in the 224 00:13:01.919 --> 00:13:06.159 nineteen eighties and the nineteen seventies was felt very very different. 225 00:13:06.159 --> 00:13:08.559 There was much less you had to turn off. There's 226 00:13:08.600 --> 00:13:11.759 much less you have to disconnect from, so the transition 227 00:13:11.919 --> 00:13:16.919 was probably more doable. Now it's so much more obvious 228 00:13:17.000 --> 00:13:22.200 to me the sense of shabas and how difficult it 229 00:13:22.279 --> 00:13:25.840 is to create a Shabis environment, but also how urgent 230 00:13:25.960 --> 00:13:29.320 I think it is for society to figure out we 231 00:13:29.360 --> 00:13:32.080 need to develop a relationship for shabas, certainly starting within 232 00:13:32.120 --> 00:13:34.759 the Jewish community, just to figure it out. How do 233 00:13:34.799 --> 00:13:37.919 we create a doorway? You know, some of the language 234 00:13:37.919 --> 00:13:40.399 that we use on eighteen forty is when you go 235 00:13:40.480 --> 00:13:46.000 into any room, you always see neon exit signs, you know, exit, exit, exit, 236 00:13:46.559 --> 00:13:49.799 And sometimes when you grow up within the community, that's 237 00:13:49.840 --> 00:13:52.480 all you see religiously, you see a lot of exit signs. 238 00:13:53.240 --> 00:13:56.519 For me, my first memory is on the online in 239 00:13:56.600 --> 00:14:00.399 the supermarket, that's always where they keep the non kosher gum, 240 00:14:00.840 --> 00:14:04.360 which most people know as gum, regular gum, you know, 241 00:14:04.440 --> 00:14:07.399 like the double bubble. I forgot what what they're called, 242 00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:11.440 like the Wrigley's juicy fruit. And I remember as a 243 00:14:11.440 --> 00:14:13.440 young kid, my mother would tell me none of this 244 00:14:13.519 --> 00:14:15.879 is kosher, you can't buy any of it. And I 245 00:14:15.919 --> 00:14:17.639 remember as a kid, I would lift it up to 246 00:14:17.679 --> 00:14:20.039 my nose. You could smell it through the packaging I 247 00:14:20.080 --> 00:14:23.639 go if only, if only, and it could be a 248 00:14:23.679 --> 00:14:26.679 ne On exit sign for people, Ah, you don't have 249 00:14:26.759 --> 00:14:30.480 to live with this. And to me, this moment is 250 00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:36.120 really about articulating a vision of Judaism that is self justifying, 251 00:14:36.200 --> 00:14:40.519 where the experience itself is the motivation. Why why do 252 00:14:40.600 --> 00:14:43.480 I keep Shabists so I can have Shabbists? That's why 253 00:14:43.519 --> 00:14:49.240 I keep it, meaning my connection to my personal Judaism. 254 00:14:49.960 --> 00:14:54.679 The motivation is not theological or even philosophical as much 255 00:14:54.759 --> 00:14:58.320 as is I need the experience of yiddishkite in my life. 256 00:14:58.360 --> 00:15:00.360 I need I need Judaism in my life. The only 257 00:15:00.399 --> 00:15:02.840 way to have it is to kind of build it, 258 00:15:02.879 --> 00:15:05.320 and you have to. There are rules and there's ways 259 00:15:05.320 --> 00:15:07.679 that you do it. But I think what people need 260 00:15:07.759 --> 00:15:10.639 now and this is a problem that began with the Enlightenment. 261 00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:14.600 When it used to Judaism, all religion was coerced. It 262 00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:17.039 was something that you had to do, and there was 263 00:15:17.159 --> 00:15:22.080 real you know, your taxation, your professional life, everything hinged 264 00:15:22.360 --> 00:15:25.279 on how you were registered. And as we go deeper 265 00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:29.759 deeper into modernity, we have to learn other language and 266 00:15:29.799 --> 00:15:34.600 other methodology for how to motivate people's religious affiliation and 267 00:15:34.639 --> 00:15:37.320 in my mind, I think the ultimate motivation is the 268 00:15:37.399 --> 00:15:40.600 experience itself, and I think that's where we're actually headed 269 00:15:40.679 --> 00:15:44.399 as a community, where the reason why people want to 270 00:15:44.440 --> 00:15:47.519 do it is because it is so. It's to have 271 00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:51.720 the experience, it's to have the life itself is the reward, 272 00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:52.799 so to speak. 273 00:15:52.919 --> 00:15:58.399 It's interesting you're not giving a theological reason for or 274 00:15:58.559 --> 00:16:03.480 justification you want to be outside, almost like it's not 275 00:16:03.519 --> 00:16:05.559 you're not saying you're doing it for God. You're not 276 00:16:05.600 --> 00:16:08.120 saying you're doing it because you have to. 277 00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:12.039 I am. But you know, once we start using language 278 00:16:12.080 --> 00:16:17.519 of God, I feel like it gets so hyper individualistic 279 00:16:17.720 --> 00:16:19.919 of what that means. You know, a lot of people 280 00:16:20.240 --> 00:16:23.320 when they invoke God, they're really thinking about their tenth 281 00:16:23.320 --> 00:16:26.960 grade teacher yelling at them and telling them what God 282 00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:29.360 wants from you. I think God is something that is 283 00:16:29.399 --> 00:16:32.919 so deeply personal. I actually don't even feel comfortable like 284 00:16:33.559 --> 00:16:38.639 articulating and talking about that. It's deeply godly, it's divine. 285 00:16:38.759 --> 00:16:42.279 I mean, what I'm after is I want to sanctify 286 00:16:42.440 --> 00:16:46.000 my existence. I want to sanctify life itself. That's what 287 00:16:46.039 --> 00:16:49.200 I'm looking for. A life is so ephemeral, it is 288 00:16:49.240 --> 00:16:52.720 so confusing. It is so hard to find your way 289 00:16:52.759 --> 00:16:57.000 and build a meaningful life. To me, my Yiddish kite 290 00:16:57.039 --> 00:17:00.679 is the vehicle with which I sanctify my existence, my 291 00:17:01.360 --> 00:17:03.480 time on this earth, my own consciousness. 292 00:17:04.119 --> 00:17:08.160 It's interesting, you know, you mentioned the gum story, which 293 00:17:08.200 --> 00:17:11.279 I find really interesting because I have spoken extensively about 294 00:17:11.319 --> 00:17:14.599 my obsession with gum that was kosher. We weren't allowed 295 00:17:14.640 --> 00:17:18.000 to eat any gum. In Kiri's Joel, where I grew up. 296 00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:21.039 They sold the gum under the counter like you might 297 00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:25.680 sell cigarettes contraband, and if you came from a more 298 00:17:25.759 --> 00:17:28.759 from family, the ladies at the grocery store knew that 299 00:17:28.799 --> 00:17:32.759 you weren't allowed to contraband, so you couldn't just buy it. 300 00:17:32.920 --> 00:17:35.119 You couldn't like say, oh, I'm going to get a 301 00:17:35.119 --> 00:17:35.720 bubble gum. 302 00:17:35.759 --> 00:17:36.599 You just couldn't get it. 303 00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:40.200 So of course I resonate with holding it up because 304 00:17:40.920 --> 00:17:43.920 I have this very almost traumatic memory of going to 305 00:17:43.960 --> 00:17:46.680 a wedding in Williamsburg, slipping out of the wedding, buying 306 00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:48.480 a box of gum which I was going to sell 307 00:17:48.480 --> 00:17:51.039 in school, and falling asleep in the car home and 308 00:17:51.079 --> 00:17:55.480 forgetting it. And I was so scared of that incident 309 00:17:55.759 --> 00:18:01.000 that gum now looms very large in my my personal 310 00:18:01.039 --> 00:18:01.480 life life. 311 00:18:02.160 --> 00:18:05.519 That's really really interesting. I absolutely love that. I love 312 00:18:05.599 --> 00:18:08.000 that your plan was to sell it like on the 313 00:18:08.079 --> 00:18:13.480 black market. That is deeply Jewish. I mean, every school 314 00:18:13.640 --> 00:18:18.680 has their black market contraband, whether it was basketball cards 315 00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:21.920 or whatever it was that they're that they're chasing. I mean, 316 00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:24.359 we had a whole economy. Every school has its own 317 00:18:24.400 --> 00:18:28.880 economy of underground contraband, so that you know better guman 318 00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:31.640 than other things that are sold illegally in school. So 319 00:18:31.720 --> 00:18:33.720 that's very good, that's true. 320 00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:33.960 You know. 321 00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:36.319 They they say you put one gate in another in 322 00:18:36.440 --> 00:18:39.160 order to protect you from worse things, and to some 323 00:18:39.200 --> 00:18:39.920 degree it does. 324 00:18:40.359 --> 00:18:41.039 It does work. 325 00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:44.519 It starts with gum, It starts with gut. Oh that way. 326 00:18:44.599 --> 00:18:45.400 Yeah. 327 00:18:45.640 --> 00:18:48.559 I don't know if you're comfortable answering this question, but 328 00:18:48.680 --> 00:18:51.119 it's something that I want to bring up, and we 329 00:18:51.200 --> 00:18:55.839 cannot deal with it however you feel comfortable. But you know, 330 00:18:55.920 --> 00:18:59.119 I have a lot of what you say resonates with 331 00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:05.640 me about seeking, making meaning and exploring that, which is like. 332 00:19:06.079 --> 00:19:09.200 Why do we do things? What makes you feel? 333 00:19:09.559 --> 00:19:14.319 You ended up finding a place and meaning in Yiddish kite, 334 00:19:14.720 --> 00:19:17.400 in Orthodox Judaism whereas I couldn't. 335 00:19:17.640 --> 00:19:19.880 It's a really really great question. And when I think 336 00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:25.880 about a lot first and foremost, I mean, we were 337 00:19:25.880 --> 00:19:29.839 both raised in an Orthodox community, and both of us 338 00:19:29.880 --> 00:19:33.640 had periods in our life where we questioned whether or 339 00:19:33.720 --> 00:19:37.160 not we had a future in this community. I had 340 00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:41.359 my questioning for really most of my twenties. I was 341 00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:45.319 thinking about leaving. That's not a secret I've spoken about that. 342 00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:47.960 I was carrying a lot of pain I was. In 343 00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:53.160 the dating world. I'm sure it still remains can be 344 00:19:53.319 --> 00:19:57.480 very isolating. There was something about the process of dating 345 00:19:58.759 --> 00:20:02.039 that felt like the eyes of the community were constantly 346 00:20:02.079 --> 00:20:06.880 evaluating you. You were constantly being judged and rejudged, and 347 00:20:07.640 --> 00:20:12.079 I so desperately just wanted to be loved without complication. 348 00:20:12.400 --> 00:20:16.480 I so desperately. I think it's the most internal human 349 00:20:16.640 --> 00:20:23.599 need of just learning how to find that unchosen familial love. 350 00:20:24.079 --> 00:20:26.839 And I think it's specifically love that is unchosen, love 351 00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:30.559 that cannot be lost, which is a unique familial love. 352 00:20:31.319 --> 00:20:35.200 And I think when people grow up in religious communities, 353 00:20:35.279 --> 00:20:39.839 it's very hard because the unchosen love of parents and 354 00:20:39.880 --> 00:20:43.039 what you want from siblings and communities is always kind 355 00:20:43.039 --> 00:20:48.799 of filtered through language of earning the love, of being 356 00:20:48.839 --> 00:20:53.599 a mensch, of following halaha, of doing the right thing, 357 00:20:54.200 --> 00:20:57.599 and that makes you worthy of love, which is not 358 00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:00.400 This is not the real Jewish approach. The Jewish approach, 359 00:21:00.519 --> 00:21:05.440 Jewish identity is not contingent on any specific behavior. We 360 00:21:05.519 --> 00:21:09.519 believe in commandedness. But if somebody you know as well 361 00:21:09.559 --> 00:21:13.799 as anyone that there's nobody in Karias Joel who would 362 00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:17.279 question whether or not you are Jewish just because you 363 00:21:17.319 --> 00:21:21.200 are not currently schomer Shabis. They know that your Jewish 364 00:21:21.240 --> 00:21:25.759 identity retains and remains even if you are not performing. 365 00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:28.559 I think for a lot of people and my guests, 366 00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:32.119 and I'm speculating now, you ask the question, so I 367 00:21:32.119 --> 00:21:35.799 feel comfortable and correct me. It's so sensitive to speculate 368 00:21:35.799 --> 00:21:41.559 about other people's religious journeys, but I suspect that for 369 00:21:41.640 --> 00:21:46.240 a lot of people, the contingent love of religious community, 370 00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:50.559 of religious expectations, if it is too prominent and you've 371 00:21:50.960 --> 00:21:56.079 had certain experiences, it can drown out your ability to 372 00:21:56.279 --> 00:22:01.720 access the unchosen familial love, which is actually what Jewish 373 00:22:01.759 --> 00:22:05.119 identity is based upon. And I think some people go 374 00:22:05.240 --> 00:22:09.599 through so much a traumatic break in with familial issues 375 00:22:09.599 --> 00:22:14.920 of feeling deeply misaligned communally, that they can no longer 376 00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:20.359 kind of access their inner and irrevocable goodness and being 377 00:22:21.119 --> 00:22:24.559 deserving of love, and and being a recipient of love 378 00:22:25.000 --> 00:22:29.359 where they sit, they say, and sometimes rightfully. So the 379 00:22:29.440 --> 00:22:32.720 only way I can find this is by leaving. And 380 00:22:33.240 --> 00:22:37.039 we have a concept called a chosen family. I think 381 00:22:37.039 --> 00:22:42.319 that's a contradiction in terms meaning family inherently is unchosen. 382 00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:48.000 It's unchosen love. A mother and a father begin loving 383 00:22:48.039 --> 00:22:51.440 their child before the before they make the honorall before 384 00:22:51.480 --> 00:22:55.640 the first report card. It's a certain familial connection that 385 00:22:55.880 --> 00:23:00.519 grounds you in this world. Our our deepest expl ruriences 386 00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:04.440 and sense of identity is forged through the through the 387 00:23:04.640 --> 00:23:09.559 crucible of how we relate to our unchosen identity. So 388 00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:11.960 I think for many, especially if you grow up in 389 00:23:11.960 --> 00:23:16.599 a community with very you know, very high religious expectations, 390 00:23:16.799 --> 00:23:20.119 which exists throughout the Orthodox world, but it's I think 391 00:23:20.200 --> 00:23:24.880 even higher and even more tightly governed in a Hasidic community. 392 00:23:25.400 --> 00:23:27.799 It works for many if they're able to kind of 393 00:23:27.880 --> 00:23:31.319 find their grounding and their stability within the home and 394 00:23:31.359 --> 00:23:33.880 within the community. And then you know, and they bend, 395 00:23:34.160 --> 00:23:37.680 you know, they bend the rules where necessary, or maybe 396 00:23:37.720 --> 00:23:40.039 you know, even when they mess up, they know that 397 00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:44.200 they're they always have a place here. But when religious 398 00:23:44.240 --> 00:23:49.240 expectations kind of obscure one's ability to have a sense 399 00:23:49.599 --> 00:23:53.000 of groundedness in their own life, where they always feel 400 00:23:53.079 --> 00:23:56.119 like if I don't do this correctly, people are not 401 00:23:56.160 --> 00:23:58.079