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<v Speaker 1>Father, Stephen Freeman, thank you for joining me on a

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<v Speaker 1>commitment to reality.

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<v Speaker 2>It's good to be here. Let's get real.

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<v Speaker 1>Before we start. Can you just tell everybody who's listening

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit about yourself. Who are you?

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<v Speaker 2>I am a native born South Carolinian who actually, after

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<v Speaker 2>being away for a lot of years, has returned home

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<v Speaker 2>to Greenville, South Carolina, where I grew up. I was

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<v Speaker 2>raised in a very nominal Baptist home, went to a

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<v Speaker 2>little Southern Baptist church down the railroad tracks about a

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<v Speaker 2>mile down from my house. My brother and I used

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<v Speaker 2>to walk down the tracks to church. I think mom

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<v Speaker 2>and dad were glad to get us out of the

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<v Speaker 2>house for Sunday morning, but they didn't go much. Baptized

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<v Speaker 2>when I was seven years old, I was kind of

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<v Speaker 2>moved by him the old Gospel, him calling old sinner

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<v Speaker 2>come home, and I just remember feeling homesick. I don't

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<v Speaker 2>know what for, but I walked the aisle and the

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<v Speaker 2>next week the feature came to the house, sat with

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<v Speaker 2>me in the living room. And have no memory of

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<v Speaker 2>this but talk with him other than sitting in there

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<v Speaker 2>and being kind of awestruck. Afterwards, he says to my Mam,

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<v Speaker 2>he's only seven years old, but he's saved, and so

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<v Speaker 2>I got baptized the next Sunday evening. I was I

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<v Speaker 2>was so short, I had to tread water, so I

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<v Speaker 2>kind of say, I was sort of just bobbed instead

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<v Speaker 2>of don't you know, just touch me and I would sing.

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<v Speaker 2>Left the Baptist church at thirteen, became long story that,

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<v Speaker 2>but became an episco payan at age fifteen through the

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<v Speaker 2>influence of my older brother. It was actually an introduction

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<v Speaker 2>to beauty from a very plain, kind of white painted

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<v Speaker 2>Baptist church to a church full of color, wonder sacrament.

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<v Speaker 2>This is pretty much the old Episcopal church with the

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<v Speaker 2>old prayer book and stuff. When I joined, and it

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<v Speaker 2>was wonderful, and if you had asked me, then I

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<v Speaker 2>thought I was joining the ancient church. So that's kind

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<v Speaker 2>of how I approached that. It's been a couple of years.

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<v Speaker 2>Got involved in the Jesus movement for a couple of

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<v Speaker 2>three years. Was involved in a charismatic, non denominational house church.

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<v Speaker 2>Lived in Commune a couple of years between high school

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<v Speaker 2>and college. Went to college at Furman University in Greenville.

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<v Speaker 2>Met my wife, actually we met in that house church.

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<v Speaker 2>We both. I returned to the Episcopal Church and took

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<v Speaker 2>her with me. We were married while I was a

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<v Speaker 2>junior in college. I went to seminary an Episcopal seminary

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<v Speaker 2>in Chicago, and then served churches in South Carolina. Was

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<v Speaker 2>in the doctoral program at Duke after seven or eight

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<v Speaker 2>years in Parish to work on I did systematic theology

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<v Speaker 2>under Jeffrey Wainwright and Stanley howerd wass howerd wass is

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<v Speaker 2>still I think of as one of the most refreshing

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<v Speaker 2>reads of an American theologians you can possibly pick up.

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<v Speaker 2>Interesting guy. But my final Episcopal church, I was serving

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<v Speaker 2>in East Tennessee outside of Knoxville, oak Ridge, and served

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<v Speaker 2>there for nine years. Aut of this. During that whole time,

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<v Speaker 2>starting in college, I started reading Orthodox writings, primarily Russian.

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<v Speaker 2>There wasn't a lot in English at the time. It

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<v Speaker 2>was in the seventies. I kind of bought everything theological

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<v Speaker 2>that Saint Vladimir's published, and it wouldn't fill half a shelf,

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<v Speaker 2>you know. And there wasn't YouTube, there wasn't Internet. It

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<v Speaker 2>was sort of doing it in a vacuum. So there

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<v Speaker 2>was a long journey, a lot of which I was Orthodox.

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<v Speaker 2>He had become sort of a touchstone of what is true.

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<v Speaker 2>And so you know, even when I was an Anglican,

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<v Speaker 2>is like is that correct? Well, I'd want to know

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<v Speaker 2>what the Orthodox thought about it, and you know, but

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<v Speaker 2>eventually at Duke I did my thesis on the theology

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<v Speaker 2>of icons, and so I was already beginning to be toast.

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<v Speaker 2>The morning after my defense, I woke up, knelt by

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<v Speaker 2>my bed in Durham and prayed, Oh God, make me Orthodox.

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<v Speaker 2>And I meant two things by that. One I want

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<v Speaker 2>to be Orthodox, and two you'll have to make me.

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<v Speaker 2>And so there's there's sort of heal marts dragged me

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<v Speaker 2>from there to seven years later when I was received

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<v Speaker 2>into the Church. And the course of that seven years

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of things happened. One of the most important

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<v Speaker 2>things that happened for me was meeting Archbishop Dmitri of

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<v Speaker 2>Dallas of Blessed Memory. It was a great missionary and

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<v Speaker 2>through him getting to know the Orthodox Church in America,

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<v Speaker 2>which was all English, I mean in terms of language

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, sort of Russian flavor in its customs

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<v Speaker 2>and its history, but decidedly rooted in America. All I

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<v Speaker 2>had ever met prior to that was a very ethnic Orthodoxison.

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<v Speaker 2>It was easy for me to use that as an

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<v Speaker 2>excuse to not do that. So anyway, in nineteen ninety eight,

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<v Speaker 2>five years old, actually forty four at the time, was

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<v Speaker 2>received into the church and immediately immediately asked by the

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<v Speaker 2>archbishop and appointed as a layman because I was having

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<v Speaker 2>to do a retread before I could be ordained Orthodox

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<v Speaker 2>to start a mission in the Knoxville area, which I did,

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<v Speaker 2>and so I had a hand in starting five different

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<v Speaker 2>Oca churches over the course of those years. Started writing.

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<v Speaker 2>I waited eight years after I was Orthodoxed. I wrote

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<v Speaker 2>a lot as an Anglican, but I waited eight years

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<v Speaker 2>after I converted before I wrote again. And in two

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<v Speaker 2>thousand and six I started a blog, Glory to God

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<v Speaker 2>for All Things, and began writing there and picked up,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, fairly good readership. Eventually, you know, published the

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<v Speaker 2>Little Book Everywhere Present Christianity in a one story universe.

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<v Speaker 2>It largely grew out of my finding ways to try

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<v Speaker 2>to communicate and Orthodox understanding of God and the world,

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<v Speaker 2>particularly the converts were coming. You know, that was my

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<v Speaker 2>bread and butter, and these missions that we were doing.

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<v Speaker 2>The Little Book is the one that probably people know

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<v Speaker 2>the most and so I retire.

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<v Speaker 1>People need to know it.

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<v Speaker 2>I retired in twenty twenty, having reached an age, and finally,

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<v Speaker 2>after a few years hanging around in Tennessee, we received

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<v Speaker 2>an invitation to come down to Greenville and are down here.

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<v Speaker 2>My parents became my nominal Baptist parents later became Episcopalians,

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<v Speaker 2>but became Orthodox at age seventy nine, and they were

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<v Speaker 2>members at the parish where I'm now attached as a

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<v Speaker 2>retired priest. And so I really feel like I've been

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<v Speaker 2>called home and that I'm slowly being gathered to my

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<v Speaker 2>father's which is a little scary.

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<v Speaker 1>Hope, slowly, slowly. We need you. That's so who I am.

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<v Speaker 1>I write, I talk, you're write and you talk well.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, I joke that we did a podcast. Before

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<v Speaker 1>the podcast we got the online and couldn't stop talking.

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<v Speaker 1>I told you that I love you, and I mean

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<v Speaker 1>thank you. And one thing that really I am intrigued.

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<v Speaker 1>Enchantment is all the rage right now everywhere. This book

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<v Speaker 1>is over ten years old. How did you get so

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<v Speaker 1>far ahead of the curve?

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<v Speaker 2>Interesting question? You know, I write a lot about the

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<v Speaker 2>topic of modernity on my blog and secularism, which is

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<v Speaker 2>you know, enchantment, it's just the latest buzzword to talk

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<v Speaker 2>about those things. A concept of the world, that there

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<v Speaker 2>can be such a thing as the world existing apart

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<v Speaker 2>from God. That mean, secularism is the myth that God

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<v Speaker 2>has his fear and we have ours. Alexander Schmemann, writing

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<v Speaker 2>talks in the sixties that are encapsulated in his Little

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<v Speaker 2>Book for the Life of the World, it says that

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<v Speaker 2>secularism is the heresy of our time. I mean, there's

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<v Speaker 2>always I'm saying nothing new in that. GK. Chesterton, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>Anglican who became Catholic, writing in the early nineteen hundreds,

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<v Speaker 2>takes all of this to task. There are British writers

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<v Speaker 2>in the eighteenth century, the eighteen hundreds who identified certain

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<v Speaker 2>that had already come to the foe, and they're beginning

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<v Speaker 2>to analyze it. So there's Lewis C. S. Lewis gets

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<v Speaker 2>into this in various ways, like the abolition of man

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<v Speaker 2>and other things, so that all of this is really

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<v Speaker 2>just a thread that's been going on for a long time.

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<v Speaker 2>You have people right now who actually think they discovered it,

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<v Speaker 2>and they jolly will did nothing of the sort. They're

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<v Speaker 2>standing on the shoulders of giants. And I love the

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<v Speaker 2>recent book that Paul Kingsnorth has done on the machine,

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<v Speaker 2>which is frankly just another word for the same problem,

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<v Speaker 2>but viewed sort of through the lens of technology. But

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<v Speaker 2>in his book he has so the most amazing. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>his footnotes are worth the entire book. And I think,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, how many lifetimes did you have to read

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<v Speaker 2>all of this? You know, digest it, and you know

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<v Speaker 2>and footnote it for the rest of us. So I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>for me, the critique of modernity. Progress is an idea

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<v Speaker 2>that belongs to modernity. But modernity itself is a set

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<v Speaker 2>of ideas, the philosoph that occurs during these the last

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<v Speaker 2>one hundred and fifty to two hundred years, But it

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<v Speaker 2>is not the period of time in times just we

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<v Speaker 2>just live. But modernity is a false philosophy, filled with

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<v Speaker 2>all kinds of wrong ideas. And so I'm like when

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<v Speaker 2>I was studying at Duke nder Harawas he said that

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<v Speaker 2>preaching the Gospel disabusing people the notions of modernity is

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<v Speaker 2>the great task of preaching the Gospel in our times,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, So that was sort of news to me.

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<v Speaker 2>Had I read him and understood him when I was

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<v Speaker 2>studying as an Anglican in seminary. They would have thrown

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<v Speaker 2>me out because my arguments against what they were saying

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<v Speaker 2>would have been so formidable. They would not have been

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<v Speaker 2>able to bear me. As it was. I was simply obnoxious.

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<v Speaker 2>I knew there was a problem, I just didn't know

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<v Speaker 2>what it was.

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<v Speaker 1>Yet, you say about a one story universe, this is

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<v Speaker 1>one of the great difficulties of our one story world.

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<v Speaker 1>It's not that we live on the first floor and

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<v Speaker 1>that that's all there is. It's that we live on

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<v Speaker 1>the first floor and we don't know the half of it.

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<v Speaker 1>What do you mean by one story universe versus a

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<v Speaker 1>two story universe?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it's just a playful set of images to use.

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<v Speaker 2>When people talk about God and talk about spiritual things,

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of them put it in a spooky place.

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<v Speaker 2>And I mean, the most crash way of saying it

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<v Speaker 2>is talking about God is the man upstairs, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>trying to think of the guy's name. Did a study,

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<v Speaker 2>wonderful study. Filmmaker teacher philosophy at Vanderbilt did a wonderful

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<v Speaker 2>study on the nuns ees. Nathan Jacobs. Yeah, yeah, Nathan Jacobs.

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<v Speaker 2>I know him. It's got a daughter goes to our

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<v Speaker 2>peerish now. Nathan said that what he discovered was talking

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<v Speaker 2>to these people who had jettisoned their Christian faith, that

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<v Speaker 2>over ninety nine percent, He said, he couldn't say one

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<v Speaker 2>hundred percent because he didn't ask all of them the

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<v Speaker 2>question when he was doing his film. But ninety nine

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<v Speaker 2>plus percent believe in ghosts. Isn't it weird? What is it?

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<v Speaker 2>What is it? They don't believe in God, but they

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<v Speaker 2>do believe in ghosts. What is that? I mean, it's

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<v Speaker 2>like they it's not that they don't believe that there

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<v Speaker 2>is something spiritual. They just and they don't know what

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<v Speaker 2>it is. They just happen to believe in them. I

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<v Speaker 2>joke and say that my book is really just me

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<v Speaker 2>doing riffs on Alexander Schmidmen trying to talk about a

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<v Speaker 2>sacramental world. That it is here, the Kingdom of God

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<v Speaker 2>is now and here it is present. Jesus says, the

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<v Speaker 2>Kingdom of God is among you. One way that I

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<v Speaker 2>describe it, for instance, that Jesus is the Kingdom of

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<v Speaker 2>God walking among us. He is the Kingdom of God.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not just some by and by, you know, pie

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<v Speaker 2>in the sky coming sometime like that he is the

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<v Speaker 2>Kingdom of God. Wherever he is, Jesus says, if I,

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<v Speaker 2>by the finger of God cast out devils, then the

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<v Speaker 2>Kingdom of God has come upon you. You know it's

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<v Speaker 2>right there. Another way, this is sort of helpful to

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<v Speaker 2>open up people's eyes. The longest passage and theology of

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<v Speaker 2>the Eucharist in the Gospels is in the sixth chapter

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<v Speaker 2>of John, as Jesus is discussing with his disciples and

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<v Speaker 2>the people the Feeding of the five Thousand. In the

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<v Speaker 2>Feeding of the five Thousand story, it says Jesus takes

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<v Speaker 2>the bread, blesses, breaks it, and gives it. Okay, those

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<v Speaker 2>are four key words. It occurs again the familiar passage

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<v Speaker 2>in the night in which he was betrayed. He took bread,

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<v Speaker 2>and when he had given things, he blessed it and

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<v Speaker 2>broke it and gave it to These four things have

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<v Speaker 2>always been understood as the key verbs. These four action

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<v Speaker 2>verbs to take, the bless to break, to give are

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<v Speaker 2>eucharistic signals. I mean, the sixth chapter of John is

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<v Speaker 2>a eucharistic gospel. It's just there. Now. The weird part

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<v Speaker 2>about it is is it's long before the Last Supper,

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<v Speaker 2>so it occurs out of order. And I've been rebuked

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<v Speaker 2>in talking in some Protestant settings, and someone try to

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<v Speaker 2>tell me that sixth chapter John is not about the Euchrist.

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<v Speaker 2>Even though Jesus says, unless you eat my flesh and

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<v Speaker 2>drink my blood, you have no life in you. You

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<v Speaker 2>can't read that as a Christian. You shouldn't be able

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<v Speaker 2>to read that as a Christian and not think Euchrist.

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<v Speaker 2>But I'll take it this way. Jesus is the Kingdom

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<v Speaker 2>of God among us, and Jesus cannot take bread in

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<v Speaker 2>his hands, bless it, break it, and give it, and

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<v Speaker 2>it not be his body, because I love the way

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<v Speaker 2>Schmelmn said this is that in the sacraments we do

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<v Speaker 2>not take something and make it to be what it

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<v Speaker 2>is not, we take something and show it to be

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<v Speaker 2>what it truly is. In the hands of Christ, bread

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<v Speaker 2>always becomes his body. The disciples have been everybody traveling

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<v Speaker 2>that Jesus has been eating euchris with him for the

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<v Speaker 2>whole journey. But on the night in which he's betrayed

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<v Speaker 2>he makes it clear. And even then they probably don't

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<v Speaker 2>get it until in the key is the endings of

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<v Speaker 2>the Gospels and the Book of acts. Jesus keeps showing

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<v Speaker 2>up on Sundays. He keeps showing up with the meal

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<v Speaker 2>like you have later in the day on Pasca. On

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<v Speaker 2>Easter Sunday, the two disciples on the road to Ammaeis,

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<v Speaker 2>they're walking along, and then they are there and they

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<v Speaker 2>get with him, and guess what takes Some read blesses

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<v Speaker 2>brexiting gives it to them, and their eyes were open,

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<v Speaker 2>and suddenly they see him and he was made known

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<v Speaker 2>to them, you know, and the breaking of the bread.

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<v Speaker 2>And people ask me, why do Christians keep Sunday instead

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<v Speaker 2>of Saturday as the holy day. Well, actually, in the

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<v Speaker 2>Orthodox Church, we believe Saturday is the Sabbath. It's clearly

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<v Speaker 2>described that and holy we call the books will say

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<v Speaker 2>great and holy Sabbath for Saturday. Sunday, I mean Saturday

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<v Speaker 2>is Sabbath is Hebrew for seven. And so Saturday is

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<v Speaker 2>still the seventh day. But we keep Sunday because it's

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<v Speaker 2>the eighth day. Sunday is the seventh seventh day fulfilled

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<v Speaker 2>the best way the Father's mystically is the eighth day.

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<v Speaker 2>It has transcended the Sunday and the Sabbath is fulfilled.

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<v Speaker 2>What is Christ doing on the Sabbath, he's in the tomb,

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<v Speaker 2>or as we say, the priest will say in the liturgy.

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<v Speaker 2>It's usually said quietly in the tomb, with the body

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<v Speaker 2>in hades, with the soul on the throne, with the Father,

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<v Speaker 2>and the Holy Spirit was that well boundless Christ, filling

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<v Speaker 2>all things. And so but what's he doing on Saturday. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>he's also in Haiti's trampling down death by death. It

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<v Speaker 2>is also Pasca the whole. Originally Pasca was kept as

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<v Speaker 2>a single day's feast. It gets expanded and stretched out,

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<v Speaker 2>not to make such a big difference between Friday, Saturday

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<v Speaker 2>and Sunday. But it's just so big it takes us

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<v Speaker 2>three days to do it. But Jesus everywhere he goes,

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<v Speaker 2>he is the Pascal Mystery everywhere, and in the Pascal Mystery,

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<v Speaker 2>bread becomes his body, wine becomes his blood, and we

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<v Speaker 2>have communion with him. And you know, to live rightly

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<v Speaker 2>isn't to reduce the sacrament to these seven actions that

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<v Speaker 2>the Church does. Rightly speaking, there are an infinite number

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<v Speaker 2>of sacraments. The whole world is sacrament.

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<v Speaker 1>Everything's the sacrament.

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<v Speaker 2>Everything is sacrament.

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<v Speaker 1>That's the thing that you get at a lot is reorientation,

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<v Speaker 1>that we have a false view of reality. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>that's that's why I've gotten so enamored with the whole

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<v Speaker 1>conception of reality exists, and it's something that we have

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<v Speaker 1>to commit to because if we don't, we fall into

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<v Speaker 1>all kinds of other issues.

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<v Speaker 2>And I was through when I saw the name of

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<v Speaker 2>your podcast because it actually really harmonized with something I've

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<v Speaker 2>been thinking a lot about. That is that as Orthodox Christians,

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<v Speaker 2>we proclaim reality. We don't proclaim something else. We proclaim reality,

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<v Speaker 2>and so the world is it truly is, so we're

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<v Speaker 2>becoming truly human. It's like you've got a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>people talking about theosis, we also need to talk about anthroposis,

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<v Speaker 2>that we need to become fully human if we're to

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<v Speaker 2>become truly partakers of God. And what we see in

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<v Speaker 2>Christ is what it is to be truly and fully human.

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<v Speaker 2>So he's that as well. But the reality of the

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<v Speaker 2>world is to receive reality is to have an attitude

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<v Speaker 2>of how do you receive that which is given to you?

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, to be an Orthodox Christian, which is simply

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<v Speaker 2>just to be a faithful human being, is to understand

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<v Speaker 2>that every everything around you as a gift. I mean

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<v Speaker 2>the sacramentality. To say that it's sacrament is also that

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<v Speaker 2>it's given to you. He takes it, he gives it

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<v Speaker 2>to us. Reality is a gift to us. So how

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<v Speaker 2>do I receive a gift? I give thanks, therefore glory

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<v Speaker 2>to God for all things. The last words of Saint

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<v Speaker 2>John Chris system or as Saint Paul will say in Thessalonians,

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<v Speaker 2>to give God thanks always and for all things. That

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<v Speaker 2>is the Eucharistic life. If Godristo means I give thanks,

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<v Speaker 2>that is the Eucharistic life is to give thanks. And

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<v Speaker 2>so that's a Until we learn to bless God and

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<v Speaker 2>to bless creation for what it is, for the reality

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<v Speaker 2>we've received, then we will always not see it for

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<v Speaker 2>what it is. Well, I want to talk about the

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<v Speaker 2>words secular. All too often secular is almost seen as

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<v Speaker 2>synonymous with atheist.

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<v Speaker 1>Yep, why is that not true?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean, historically it's not. A Secular is an

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<v Speaker 2>old Latin word. It's the word in secular seculorum, which

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<v Speaker 2>means nto the ages of ages. Secular means the age

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<v Speaker 2>and is sometimes used to translate world like worldliness would

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<v Speaker 2>be secular whatever, and so it had a meaning. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>for instance, in old Catholic you said you would have

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<v Speaker 2>two kinds of priests. You would have a priest who

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<v Speaker 2>was religious, and that meant he was a monk and

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<v Speaker 2>in holy orders like a Benedictine or something. If he

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<v Speaker 2>was a secular priest, it meant he belonged to the

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<v Speaker 2>bishop and in just his diocese, that he was not

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<v Speaker 2>under a religious order. I mean, those were old uses,

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<v Speaker 2>but the words get taken over. One of the things

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<v Speaker 2>that happens in the Protestant Reformation is also the rise

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<v Speaker 2>of the nation state, and so you have, for instance,

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<v Speaker 2>in the Great Protestant Catholic Settlement that ended the religious

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<v Speaker 2>wars in Europe, the proclamation was that the church of

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<v Speaker 2>a country or state would be whatever the religion was

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<v Speaker 2>of the prince. That if the prince was Lutheran, then

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<v Speaker 2>it's Lutheran. If he was Calvinist, it's If it's Catholic,

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<v Speaker 2>it's Catholic. But it was actually being determined by the prince,

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<v Speaker 2>and that was the treaty that was done, and so

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<v Speaker 2>you get the rise of the nation states on an

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<v Speaker 2>equal or even greater footing than the Church in its

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<v Speaker 2>radical form. In England, you know, the king just declares

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<v Speaker 2>that he is the head of the church. Just nonsense

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<v Speaker 2>and heresy. And it gradually over the centuries with the Enlightenment,

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<v Speaker 2>it gets reinterpreted in which it just means not religious,

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<v Speaker 2>like secular meaning it's not religious. And so it's easy

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<v Speaker 2>to see how that would get confused with atheism. And

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<v Speaker 2>though none of the founding fathers would have described themselves

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<v Speaker 2>as atheists, they all believed at least in a Unitarian God.

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<v Speaker 2>But you know, some of them were Christians of various sorts,

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<v Speaker 2>and if they had a notion of something being not religious,

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<v Speaker 2>they would simply have meant by that, not tied to

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<v Speaker 2>a particular religious confession. It's not until some decades later

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<v Speaker 2>that the states quit having state churches, and by a

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<v Speaker 2>state church, yes they collected churches, was supported by taxes,

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<v Speaker 2>you know. But gradually, with the rise of the radical Enlightenment,

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<v Speaker 2>you get the notion that secular means having no religion.

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<v Speaker 2>And then this is really the very swift move that

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<v Speaker 2>it's okay for you to have religion so long as

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<v Speaker 2>that's your private opinion.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, it's it's a compartmentalization that that's the big exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>And you said no, religion. I will and constantly do

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<v Speaker 1>push back in private conversation, and now public I don't

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<v Speaker 1>think there's such a thing. I agree, And so this

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<v Speaker 1>whole concept of neutrality in the public square. Tell me

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<v Speaker 1>why that's not possible.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, everybody has, even when they are really lousy and

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<v Speaker 2>explaining it. Everybody has some kind of a matrix of

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<v Speaker 2>meaning what they think life in the world is about.

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<v Speaker 2>It may be very shallow, it may be many many things,

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<v Speaker 2>but that matrix of meaning is religious. It functions as

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<v Speaker 2>a religion. The word religio in Latin means to bind together.

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<v Speaker 2>It is your worldview is that which holds your world together.

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<v Speaker 2>If you have a worldview, you have a religion. My

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<v Speaker 2>worldview is Orthodox Christianity, and I'm able to tolerate other

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<v Speaker 2>worldviews and recognize them for what they are, and I'm

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<v Speaker 2>able to have conversations, including with an atheist. I just

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<v Speaker 2>want him to be honest about what he's doing and

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<v Speaker 2>to have to admit what he's doing. It takes far

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<v Speaker 2>more faith to be an atheist than to be a believer.

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<v Speaker 1>Not just honest. This is my big thing that I've

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<v Speaker 1>been kind of ranting about forever. I feel like the

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<v Speaker 1>whole concept of you having your truth and me having

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<v Speaker 1>my truth. Okay, maybe if you substitute truth for belief,

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<v Speaker 1>that's a good thing. But the idea that you can't

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<v Speaker 1>press somebody on their beliefs, and I don't mean in

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<v Speaker 1>a hostile or antagonistic way, I just can't believe that there.

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<v Speaker 1>I feel like we're in a unique period of human

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<v Speaker 1>history where people aren't forced to really reconcile the logicality

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<v Speaker 1>of their beliefs. And you talked about like how worldview

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<v Speaker 1>shapes everything. When you have these beliefs that are so

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<v Speaker 1>cognitively dissonant, it's no wonder that we're living in times

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<v Speaker 1>that are frenetic and chaotic.

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<v Speaker 2>Yep. Well, the notion that we all have our own

401
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<v Speaker 2>truth is really a rhetorical moves. It's not actually, I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>logically it can't be. So truth is truth, and it

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<v Speaker 2>may be that you and I neither one know the truth,

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<v Speaker 2>but the truth is it has a substance. Something is

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<v Speaker 2>true or it's not true. But it's a very cute

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<v Speaker 2>rhetorical move to say you have your truth and I

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<v Speaker 2>have mine, and therefore your mean and bad if you

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<v Speaker 2>challenge my truth. That's what that's about and essentially one

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<v Speaker 2>of the things was interesting when I was studying at Duke.

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<v Speaker 2>The Marxists were in their early forms there. This was

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<v Speaker 2>already happening in Anglican seminaries. Has now spread to all

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<v Speaker 2>of the mainline, the old fashioned mainline denominations. You cannot

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<v Speaker 2>write a paper and refer to God as He, you

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<v Speaker 2>must say he slashed she. At least there were professors,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean at Duke Divinity. I was not at Duke Divinity,

416
00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:50.720
<v Speaker 2>but at Duke Divinity that was already the rules. And

417
00:24:50.759 --> 00:24:52.920
<v Speaker 2>this was in the late nineteen eighties when I was there.

418
00:24:53.240 --> 00:24:55.559
<v Speaker 2>But I told there was one professor I wanted to

419
00:24:55.559 --> 00:24:58.279
<v Speaker 2>study under, but she required the he she language. And

420
00:24:58.319 --> 00:25:03.039
<v Speaker 2>I thought, nobody can make write heresy. I won't do it. Sorry,

421
00:25:03.279 --> 00:25:05.680
<v Speaker 2>just can't do it, not for you, not for anybody.

422
00:25:05.759 --> 00:25:08.200
<v Speaker 2>No course is worth going to hell for so anyway,

423
00:25:08.279 --> 00:25:10.200
<v Speaker 2>no matter how good it is. But it was a

424
00:25:10.240 --> 00:25:12.720
<v Speaker 2>Marxist rhetorical movement. One of the things that was going

425
00:25:12.759 --> 00:25:15.079
<v Speaker 2>on when we were there was actually studying rhetoric, how

426
00:25:15.160 --> 00:25:18.359
<v Speaker 2>rhetoric is used, how arguments are formed and fashioned, and

427
00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:23.200
<v Speaker 2>Marxist rhetoric not just the economic ideas, but Marxist rhetoric.

428
00:25:23.240 --> 00:25:27.920
<v Speaker 2>How to deconstruct deconstruction is a Marxist ideology. How to

429
00:25:27.960 --> 00:25:30.759
<v Speaker 2>deconstruct the ideas of your opponents, to take them apart

430
00:25:30.839 --> 00:25:33.759
<v Speaker 2>so that your opponent has nowhere to stand. I think

431
00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:39.759
<v Speaker 2>Jonathan Pajoe has something about deconstructing the deconstructionists, or how

432
00:25:39.759 --> 00:25:42.559
<v Speaker 2>to turn postmodernity on its head, and that's a good thing.

433
00:25:42.599 --> 00:25:44.160
<v Speaker 2>That was one of the things I was learning when

434
00:25:44.160 --> 00:25:47.519
<v Speaker 2>I was there. I began realizing that actually Orthodoxy can

435
00:25:47.640 --> 00:25:52.599
<v Speaker 2>do this because Orthodoxy is not born in modernity. It's

436
00:25:52.839 --> 00:25:57.079
<v Speaker 2>very pre modern. And if you're immersed in the Fathers,

437
00:25:57.119 --> 00:26:00.480
<v Speaker 2>they have a worldview that is not formed in shape

438
00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:04.720
<v Speaker 2>by the Reformation or the counter Reformation, is formed in

439
00:26:04.759 --> 00:26:07.559
<v Speaker 2>shape where none of those things were going on. And

440
00:26:07.640 --> 00:26:12.359
<v Speaker 2>so it's good in some ways to learn to be

441
00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:14.559
<v Speaker 2>more and more immerse in our Orthodox faith because it

442
00:26:14.599 --> 00:26:17.960
<v Speaker 2>all help its way to detox from the modern world.

443
00:26:18.160 --> 00:26:21.240
<v Speaker 2>Just use another notion to detox from the modern world,

444
00:26:21.559 --> 00:26:29.920
<v Speaker 2>as in secutor. That's not our word. Secutarism is a heresy.

445
00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:32.400
<v Speaker 2>Heaven and earth are full of Thy glory. There is

446
00:26:32.559 --> 00:26:36.960
<v Speaker 2>nothing that exists that does not belong to God. Nothing

447
00:26:37.079 --> 00:26:40.279
<v Speaker 2>can exist that does it belong to God. We believe

448
00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:44.880
<v Speaker 2>that everything that does exist is upheld in his existence

449
00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:49.559
<v Speaker 2>by God. Even the devil is upheld in his existence

450
00:26:49.640 --> 00:26:53.759
<v Speaker 2>by God. Nothing is self existence. In fact, just to

451
00:26:53.799 --> 00:26:56.960
<v Speaker 2>scandalize your listeners, we believe not only is the devil

452
00:26:57.039 --> 00:27:00.599
<v Speaker 2>maintained in his existence by God, but that the devil,

453
00:27:01.359 --> 00:27:07.720
<v Speaker 2>by nature, is good. There are no evil natures. The

454
00:27:07.839 --> 00:27:10.799
<v Speaker 2>nature of a thing is the thing. He has so

455
00:27:11.079 --> 00:27:15.400
<v Speaker 2>warped his will that he acts contrary to his own nature.

456
00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:19.160
<v Speaker 2>In fact, he hates his own existence. As the scripture says,

457
00:27:19.480 --> 00:27:22.519
<v Speaker 2>he was a murderer from the beginning. Doesn't mean he

458
00:27:22.599 --> 00:27:26.400
<v Speaker 2>was created a murderer. It means from the earliest times

459
00:27:26.440 --> 00:27:31.039
<v Speaker 2>he perverted himself into a murderer. He hates our existence. God,

460
00:27:31.359 --> 00:27:34.640
<v Speaker 2>we say, is the author of our being. He hates

461
00:27:34.759 --> 00:27:38.279
<v Speaker 2>our being. He hates his own being. He's the enemy

462
00:27:38.680 --> 00:27:42.160
<v Speaker 2>of God. He's the enemy of being. And if you will,

463
00:27:42.319 --> 00:27:45.799
<v Speaker 2>one of his tortures is he can't make himself not exist,

464
00:27:46.640 --> 00:27:51.279
<v Speaker 2>because existence is God's gift. You and I a person

465
00:27:51.400 --> 00:27:55.799
<v Speaker 2>could attempt to kill themselves, but they can't make themselves

466
00:27:55.839 --> 00:28:01.119
<v Speaker 2>not exist. You can change, you know, change your address

467
00:28:01.960 --> 00:28:04.519
<v Speaker 2>from here to there, which you can't make yourself not exist.

468
00:28:04.640 --> 00:28:08.119
<v Speaker 2>Existence is God's gift to us, and he does not

469
00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:11.279
<v Speaker 2>take back what he has given. It is his own

470
00:28:11.319 --> 00:28:14.839
<v Speaker 2>free gift to us. And so the secutive world, there's

471
00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:17.279
<v Speaker 2>no such thing. There's God's world and what we have.

472
00:28:17.519 --> 00:28:20.680
<v Speaker 2>And this is for instance, here's another heresy of America.

473
00:28:21.559 --> 00:28:25.359
<v Speaker 2>America says that essentially that the right of the state

474
00:28:25.640 --> 00:28:30.440
<v Speaker 2>comes from the consent of the governed, that's the authority,

475
00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:32.240
<v Speaker 2>and the power of the state comes from the And

476
00:28:32.400 --> 00:28:35.960
<v Speaker 2>so the notion that it gets its state its power

477
00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:39.519
<v Speaker 2>from the people, that's not true. It cannot be true.

478
00:28:39.920 --> 00:28:42.119
<v Speaker 2>You and I have no power to give to the state.

479
00:28:42.279 --> 00:28:46.599
<v Speaker 2>All authority is from God. All authority is from God.

480
00:28:47.359 --> 00:28:52.079
<v Speaker 2>We have a mechanism in which we rotate our authorities

481
00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:56.680
<v Speaker 2>through a process we call democracy or whatever it is.

482
00:28:56.759 --> 00:28:59.680
<v Speaker 2>That as badly as it works, but it's still just

483
00:28:59.680 --> 00:29:02.279
<v Speaker 2>at that's all it is. And if you had a

484
00:29:02.359 --> 00:29:04.119
<v Speaker 2>king and we were governed by a king, if you

485
00:29:04.200 --> 00:29:07.319
<v Speaker 2>had an ayatola and you're governed by an ayahtola, authority

486
00:29:07.400 --> 00:29:12.799
<v Speaker 2>is just a authority. And the problem is is that

487
00:29:12.880 --> 00:29:17.359
<v Speaker 2>authority has a kind of divine character about it. And

488
00:29:17.559 --> 00:29:20.039
<v Speaker 2>in America, I hear this all the time. People will

489
00:29:20.079 --> 00:29:23.079
<v Speaker 2>say things like that they believe in America. I'll tell

490
00:29:23.119 --> 00:29:27.559
<v Speaker 2>people you shouldn't believe in America. You believe in God,

491
00:29:28.599 --> 00:29:33.400
<v Speaker 2>you don't believe in countries. Countries are not objects of faith.

492
00:29:33.920 --> 00:29:36.920
<v Speaker 2>God is the object of faith. You know. We pray

493
00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:40.559
<v Speaker 2>for this country, we submit to its laws, we elect

494
00:29:40.599 --> 00:29:43.799
<v Speaker 2>its leaders, we participate in it, we debate in it,

495
00:29:43.839 --> 00:29:46.839
<v Speaker 2>we do all of those things. But it is not God.

496
00:29:46.960 --> 00:29:50.319
<v Speaker 2>And the problem is that the state has this authority,

497
00:29:50.440 --> 00:29:52.960
<v Speaker 2>the sort of aura of God about it. And in

498
00:29:53.000 --> 00:29:57.480
<v Speaker 2>a world that is described secularly, we can't talk about

499
00:29:57.519 --> 00:30:00.920
<v Speaker 2>this thing very well. And you can't name it. You

500
00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:03.880
<v Speaker 2>can't talk about it. And we've gotten rid of the

501
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:07.799
<v Speaker 2>names for these divine things, and I mean.

502
00:30:07.680 --> 00:30:10.680
<v Speaker 1>More, we've relegated them to abstractions. Why is God as

503
00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:13.359
<v Speaker 1>an idea no God at all? And why does it

504
00:30:13.519 --> 00:30:18.480
<v Speaker 1>lead to practical atheism or what you call Christian atheism?

505
00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:21.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's just because God is an idea. Is make

506
00:30:21.319 --> 00:30:24.640
<v Speaker 2>believe whose idea is it? It's your idea, you made

507
00:30:24.640 --> 00:30:27.680
<v Speaker 2>it up. Father Maximus Constant is one of the best

508
00:30:27.839 --> 00:30:31.000
<v Speaker 2>authorities on sat Maximus's Confessor written a number of books

509
00:30:31.039 --> 00:30:33.480
<v Speaker 2>and translated a lot of his stuff. But he said

510
00:30:33.559 --> 00:30:37.880
<v Speaker 2>that we only know something by contradiction, as in, if

511
00:30:37.920 --> 00:30:41.079
<v Speaker 2>it's just my idea is sort of just an extension

512
00:30:41.119 --> 00:30:44.640
<v Speaker 2>of my thinking. It's only when my idea runs up

513
00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:47.519
<v Speaker 2>into something that it didn't think, if you will that

514
00:30:47.720 --> 00:30:52.559
<v Speaker 2>contradicts it, that I am perceiving something and I'm dealing

515
00:30:52.559 --> 00:30:55.119
<v Speaker 2>with something. Otherwise I'm just in a dream world. That

516
00:30:55.720 --> 00:30:58.880
<v Speaker 2>you need a god. I mean, if God is real

517
00:30:59.039 --> 00:31:04.079
<v Speaker 2>and true, I know him by contradiction. Is the old uh, well,

518
00:31:04.119 --> 00:31:06.319
<v Speaker 2>the old timers. An AA once said, the only thing

519
00:31:06.359 --> 00:31:08.759
<v Speaker 2>you need to know about God is you're not him.

520
00:31:09.319 --> 00:31:11.920
<v Speaker 2>That's a place to start. You're not him. I need

521
00:31:11.960 --> 00:31:14.839
<v Speaker 2>a God who can contradict me. I need a God

522
00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:17.640
<v Speaker 2>who can bring me up short. I need a god

523
00:31:17.960 --> 00:31:22.599
<v Speaker 2>who I see his commandments and his commandments. I would say,

524
00:31:22.599 --> 00:31:25.319
<v Speaker 2>his commandments revealed to me who I am. But that's

525
00:31:25.319 --> 00:31:27.720
<v Speaker 2>because he sees me in a way that I don't.

526
00:31:28.119 --> 00:31:32.640
<v Speaker 2>There's a need that's imaginary. My idea of me, and

527
00:31:32.680 --> 00:31:36.640
<v Speaker 2>the idea of me also doesn't exist. It's not me,

528
00:31:37.240 --> 00:31:40.279
<v Speaker 2>that's make believe. And I would go into my more

529
00:31:40.319 --> 00:31:42.279
<v Speaker 2>recent book and say, and most of it's built out

530
00:31:42.279 --> 00:31:46.039
<v Speaker 2>of images driven by shame. Uh. And it is in fact,

531
00:31:46.119 --> 00:31:50.359
<v Speaker 2>but to know be you can't. We know Jesus face

532
00:31:50.400 --> 00:31:52.319
<v Speaker 2>to face. So one of my corrections I would make

533
00:31:52.319 --> 00:31:55.720
<v Speaker 2>of evangelicals it's not a personal relationship. We want. We

534
00:31:55.759 --> 00:31:59.559
<v Speaker 2>want a face to face relationship to know the glory

535
00:31:59.599 --> 00:32:02.799
<v Speaker 2>of God God. In the face of Jesus Christ, I

536
00:32:02.839 --> 00:32:06.599
<v Speaker 2>see God face to face in Christ, and in seeing Christ,

537
00:32:07.279 --> 00:32:10.880
<v Speaker 2>I see me. It's Christ who makes himself known, but

538
00:32:10.960 --> 00:32:15.119
<v Speaker 2>it's also Christ who makes me known to me. So

539
00:32:15.279 --> 00:32:17.599
<v Speaker 2>I would say, we only know ourselves as we know

540
00:32:17.720 --> 00:32:22.400
<v Speaker 2>ourselves in Christ. And that's a slow revelation. I has

541
00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:25.440
<v Speaker 2>not seen here, has not or has it entered into

542
00:32:25.480 --> 00:32:27.759
<v Speaker 2>the mind of man the good things God has prepared

543
00:32:27.759 --> 00:32:30.119
<v Speaker 2>for those who love Him, and those are being revealed

544
00:32:30.160 --> 00:32:33.519
<v Speaker 2>to us face to face in the face of Jesus Christ.

545
00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:36.839
<v Speaker 2>Somehow another it seems better than personal When people say

546
00:32:36.880 --> 00:32:39.759
<v Speaker 2>personal relationship with Jesus, I think oftentimes they've got a

547
00:32:39.759 --> 00:32:43.799
<v Speaker 2>lot of imaginary stuff in it, you know, and it's

548
00:32:43.839 --> 00:32:46.079
<v Speaker 2>kind of like Jesus as my secret friend, you know,

549
00:32:46.279 --> 00:32:50.559
<v Speaker 2>like a child's little secret friend, their imaginary friend. And instead,

550
00:32:51.319 --> 00:32:53.599
<v Speaker 2>you know, as an Orthodox Christian, you come into church

551
00:32:53.640 --> 00:32:56.759
<v Speaker 2>and you look at him. There he is face to face,

552
00:32:57.559 --> 00:33:01.119
<v Speaker 2>he sees me. I see him. I look at him.

553
00:33:01.359 --> 00:33:04.519
<v Speaker 2>I pray I see him, you know. And I would

554
00:33:04.559 --> 00:33:08.440
<v Speaker 2>extend that the fathers of the Seventh Council said, the

555
00:33:08.680 --> 00:33:13.440
<v Speaker 2>icons do with color what scripture does with words, And

556
00:33:13.519 --> 00:33:16.559
<v Speaker 2>so I mean, who is it Jesus face to face

557
00:33:16.599 --> 00:33:19.559
<v Speaker 2>that I see. I'd go back to the gospels. Who

558
00:33:19.640 --> 00:33:23.200
<v Speaker 2>is this? Who is this? I volunteered for a while.

559
00:33:24.119 --> 00:33:28.039
<v Speaker 2>I'll call on drug treatment program, working with people going

560
00:33:28.079 --> 00:33:31.799
<v Speaker 2>through it, on the spirituality of recovery. And this was

561
00:33:31.839 --> 00:33:35.079
<v Speaker 2>in These were people mostly there by the order of

562
00:33:35.079 --> 00:33:38.200
<v Speaker 2>a judge. So these were poor people who couldn't afford

563
00:33:38.200 --> 00:33:42.119
<v Speaker 2>fancy twenty eight day programs. And a lot of them

564
00:33:42.119 --> 00:33:43.599
<v Speaker 2>this was East in the Sea, so a lot of

565
00:33:43.599 --> 00:33:47.599
<v Speaker 2>them come out of, you know, kind of poor Protestant backgrounds,

566
00:33:48.440 --> 00:33:51.000
<v Speaker 2>and they'd heard a lot of angry God stuff preached

567
00:33:51.000 --> 00:33:53.799
<v Speaker 2>out them. I would take them to the eighth chapter

568
00:33:53.880 --> 00:33:57.079
<v Speaker 2>of John and we would go through the story of

569
00:33:57.119 --> 00:34:01.559
<v Speaker 2>the woman taken an adultery. We would look at the

570
00:34:01.599 --> 00:34:05.079
<v Speaker 2>story as well of the prodigal son, and we go

571
00:34:05.160 --> 00:34:07.599
<v Speaker 2>through these just trying to talk to them about who

572
00:34:07.640 --> 00:34:12.679
<v Speaker 2>God is, you know, this imagery, this woman caught in

573
00:34:12.719 --> 00:34:15.679
<v Speaker 2>the act of adultery, so I've always imagined you're sort

574
00:34:15.679 --> 00:34:18.400
<v Speaker 2>of naked and sweaty. I they drug her out into

575
00:34:18.440 --> 00:34:20.559
<v Speaker 2>the street and they're having a guys are having a

576
00:34:20.559 --> 00:34:23.079
<v Speaker 2>great time with this one, you know, and dragging her

577
00:34:23.079 --> 00:34:25.719
<v Speaker 2>out in front of Jesus and wanting to throw stones.

578
00:34:25.800 --> 00:34:29.239
<v Speaker 2>They're just, you know, how awful. What does Jesus do?

579
00:34:29.360 --> 00:34:34.360
<v Speaker 2>I mean, he covers her first off, from the accusations,

580
00:34:35.920 --> 00:34:40.280
<v Speaker 2>the accusations, he has refuted them with his words, and

581
00:34:40.360 --> 00:34:44.920
<v Speaker 2>they go away, and he says, woman, where are your accusers? Are?

582
00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:47.280
<v Speaker 2>Where those who condemn you? Whatever? And he says, then,

583
00:34:47.320 --> 00:34:50.360
<v Speaker 2>neither do I condemn you. And that's not Jesus saying

584
00:34:50.599 --> 00:34:53.960
<v Speaker 2>adultery is okay, that's not even a question. It's not

585
00:34:54.079 --> 00:35:00.559
<v Speaker 2>even a question. The question is does Jesus lover? Can

586
00:35:00.639 --> 00:35:05.400
<v Speaker 2>she be reconciled to God? Is she a child of Abraham?

587
00:35:06.039 --> 00:35:08.320
<v Speaker 2>Does she belong to the people of God? To that?

588
00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:10.199
<v Speaker 2>And then he says to her, go and sin no more,

589
00:35:10.920 --> 00:35:13.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, And he doesn't say, or I'll come back,

590
00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:16.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, and how roast you? And YadA, YadA, YadA.

591
00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:20.360
<v Speaker 2>I mean, this is but anyway, I can remember teaching

592
00:35:20.400 --> 00:35:22.840
<v Speaker 2>this with these groups to be people just tears running

593
00:35:22.880 --> 00:35:26.880
<v Speaker 2>down their cheeks because somehow another they had never heard that,

594
00:35:27.920 --> 00:35:31.599
<v Speaker 2>they had never heard the gospel of a good God

595
00:35:31.679 --> 00:35:36.320
<v Speaker 2>who loves mankind. They had just never heard it.

596
00:35:38.159 --> 00:35:40.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, it's powerful when you talk about a one

597
00:35:40.800 --> 00:35:43.960
<v Speaker 1>story universe. I mean you're talking about God loving us,

598
00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:47.639
<v Speaker 1>and salvation really does come down to God's love for us.

599
00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:50.719
<v Speaker 1>How does life in a one story universe versus the

600
00:35:50.760 --> 00:35:53.960
<v Speaker 1>conception of a two story universe convey the real reality

601
00:35:53.960 --> 00:35:54.559
<v Speaker 1>of salvation?

602
00:35:55.880 --> 00:35:59.840
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean, first off, Jesus is here. He's here. Now,

603
00:36:00.039 --> 00:36:02.239
<v Speaker 2>there's a lot of people with there. Actually, it's got

604
00:36:02.239 --> 00:36:05.239
<v Speaker 2>a three story universe. There's us down here living in

605
00:36:05.280 --> 00:36:08.360
<v Speaker 2>their secutive world. There's God up there, and Jesus is

606
00:36:08.360 --> 00:36:11.400
<v Speaker 2>coming back. And I've often described their version of the

607
00:36:11.440 --> 00:36:13.880
<v Speaker 2>Second Coming as Jesus is coming back and boy is

608
00:36:13.920 --> 00:36:16.159
<v Speaker 2>he angry. That's like he's going to come to judge

609
00:36:16.199 --> 00:36:18.559
<v Speaker 2>the heavens and the earth. Instead of understanding that judge

610
00:36:18.599 --> 00:36:21.400
<v Speaker 2>means he's going to set everything right. That's what a

611
00:36:21.480 --> 00:36:25.519
<v Speaker 2>show fate a judge does. A judge makes things right.

612
00:36:26.119 --> 00:36:30.360
<v Speaker 2>But anyway, Jesus is here. The third story I mean

613
00:36:30.360 --> 00:36:33.440
<v Speaker 2>there's here and then they've got Hell. And there's a

614
00:36:33.480 --> 00:36:36.239
<v Speaker 2>sense in which, for a lot of folks, the angry

615
00:36:36.280 --> 00:36:39.320
<v Speaker 2>God is very tied into the doctrine of Hell. In fact,

616
00:36:39.920 --> 00:36:43.800
<v Speaker 2>the angry God needs Hell because he's got it is

617
00:36:43.840 --> 00:36:47.760
<v Speaker 2>somewhere for his anger to get taken out. And so

618
00:36:48.079 --> 00:36:50.320
<v Speaker 2>there's a lot of accounts of God that I feel

619
00:36:50.559 --> 00:36:53.039
<v Speaker 2>like start and this is sort of I mean, I

620
00:36:53.079 --> 00:36:56.880
<v Speaker 2>was trained in systematic theology, but I do orthodoxy, which

621
00:36:56.920 --> 00:37:01.639
<v Speaker 2>is better than systematic. It's organic thing fits, but it

622
00:37:02.039 --> 00:37:04.880
<v Speaker 2>still systematic theology can be useful because it can help

623
00:37:04.920 --> 00:37:06.679
<v Speaker 2>you kind of listen to something and think, you know,

624
00:37:07.239 --> 00:37:09.400
<v Speaker 2>I think you have a problem here. One of the

625
00:37:09.440 --> 00:37:12.480
<v Speaker 2>problems is for a lot of Christians, their account of

626
00:37:12.519 --> 00:37:15.519
<v Speaker 2>God starts with Hell, and the problem is about people

627
00:37:15.559 --> 00:37:17.480
<v Speaker 2>going to Hell and how to get them out. Salvation's

628
00:37:17.480 --> 00:37:20.280
<v Speaker 2>about not going to Hell. I mean, you know, it's

629
00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:24.480
<v Speaker 2>Saint John Chris System's sermon that we read everywhere in

630
00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:28.920
<v Speaker 2>the Orthodox world at Pasca at the Great Service of Pasco.

631
00:37:29.079 --> 00:37:32.639
<v Speaker 2>That sermon is read everywhere in the world that night,

632
00:37:33.239 --> 00:37:35.559
<v Speaker 2>the same sermon, the only sermon we do that with

633
00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:38.840
<v Speaker 2>everywhere in the Orthodox world. This sermon is read and

634
00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:42.320
<v Speaker 2>has been since who knows when, I don't know, a

635
00:37:42.360 --> 00:37:45.559
<v Speaker 2>long time ago, many many centuries ago. You read that

636
00:37:45.679 --> 00:37:50.239
<v Speaker 2>sermon and it's kind of you know, it has language

637
00:37:50.239 --> 00:37:53.519
<v Speaker 2>in it like and you know these trampled down death

638
00:37:53.559 --> 00:37:56.559
<v Speaker 2>by death and not one you know, is left in

639
00:37:56.599 --> 00:38:01.039
<v Speaker 2>the graves. It's it borders on universalism, and that just

640
00:38:01.159 --> 00:38:04.119
<v Speaker 2>troubles the daylights out of a lot of including a

641
00:38:04.119 --> 00:38:07.599
<v Speaker 2>lot of Orthodox But because it proclaims the good news

642
00:38:07.639 --> 00:38:13.320
<v Speaker 2>so boldly that it smacks of that, well, I would,

643
00:38:13.519 --> 00:38:17.440
<v Speaker 2>I would say, and I tell people, I'm like Metropolitan

644
00:38:17.519 --> 00:38:21.239
<v Speaker 2>callistos Ware who wrote a really well done article called

645
00:38:21.400 --> 00:38:24.119
<v Speaker 2>do we dare Hope? Do we dare hope? That all

646
00:38:24.119 --> 00:38:27.119
<v Speaker 2>may be saved? And I thought that he said it right,

647
00:38:27.320 --> 00:38:29.360
<v Speaker 2>is that you might you may hope that we have

648
00:38:29.480 --> 00:38:33.559
<v Speaker 2>no dogmatic proclamation that all will be saved. We don't

649
00:38:33.559 --> 00:38:36.440
<v Speaker 2>have that. That is not the teaching of the dogma

650
00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:39.079
<v Speaker 2>of the Orthodox Church. You can find a few saints

651
00:38:39.119 --> 00:38:42.840
<v Speaker 2>who do hold that opinion, and you can find some

652
00:38:42.880 --> 00:38:45.559
<v Speaker 2>readings of the Fifth Ecumenical Council and some other things

653
00:38:45.599 --> 00:38:48.400
<v Speaker 2>liturgically that talk about hell and stuff that way.

654
00:38:48.760 --> 00:38:50.119
<v Speaker 1>But I would say to I.

655
00:38:50.039 --> 00:38:56.079
<v Speaker 2>Remember my first confessor in the Orthodox Church, a priest

656
00:38:56.440 --> 00:39:00.239
<v Speaker 2>who had taught at Saint Vladimir's. And I to him

657
00:39:00.280 --> 00:39:07.159
<v Speaker 2>about kind of my leanings like Chlystos where and he said, well,

658
00:39:07.320 --> 00:39:10.679
<v Speaker 2>he said, you can't teach that as a priest. It's

659
00:39:10.719 --> 00:39:12.960
<v Speaker 2>not the teaching of the Orthodox Church. He said, but

660
00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:15.280
<v Speaker 2>if you don't want it to be true, there's something

661
00:39:15.320 --> 00:39:19.960
<v Speaker 2>wrong with your heart. And this is the disciples who

662
00:39:19.960 --> 00:39:24.360
<v Speaker 2>were with Jesus and as Syrian village rejects him and

663
00:39:24.400 --> 00:39:28.199
<v Speaker 2>they want to call down fire? Shall we call down

664
00:39:28.280 --> 00:39:32.000
<v Speaker 2>fire like Elijah did? To consume that? And Jesus rebukes

665
00:39:32.039 --> 00:39:34.079
<v Speaker 2>them and says, you don't know what spirit you're of.

666
00:39:34.360 --> 00:39:37.760
<v Speaker 2>Saint Siliwan rebuked a monk who was sort of preaching

667
00:39:37.800 --> 00:39:40.880
<v Speaker 2>hell fire and damnation, and he said, don't do that.

668
00:39:41.760 --> 00:39:43.719
<v Speaker 2>He said, selt him, don't don't do that. He said,

669
00:39:43.760 --> 00:39:46.119
<v Speaker 2>love could not bear it. And it's you know, so

670
00:39:46.800 --> 00:39:49.960
<v Speaker 2>I draw a line. I have a border that I

671
00:39:50.000 --> 00:39:53.039
<v Speaker 2>stopped with. I stopped with my hope and I think

672
00:39:53.039 --> 00:39:56.360
<v Speaker 2>it's just find it to stand there, and that's my hope.

673
00:39:57.599 --> 00:39:59.960
<v Speaker 2>And I don't I just I don't cross the lone.

674
00:40:00.199 --> 00:40:01.920
<v Speaker 2>One of the reasons I don't cross the line is.

675
00:40:01.920 --> 00:40:04.280
<v Speaker 2>I think the Orthodox have always avoided it, just like

676
00:40:04.360 --> 00:40:07.079
<v Speaker 2>we don't talk about purgatory. You know, we feel that

677
00:40:07.159 --> 00:40:11.280
<v Speaker 2>Rome said too much, and then the Protestants criticizing the Romans,

678
00:40:11.480 --> 00:40:14.280
<v Speaker 2>they said too much? Why say more than the Father said?

679
00:40:14.880 --> 00:40:17.800
<v Speaker 2>It was enough? But we should proclaim the good news

680
00:40:17.880 --> 00:40:22.239
<v Speaker 2>in Jesus Christ that God loves all without measure and

681
00:40:22.320 --> 00:40:26.679
<v Speaker 2>preach that everywhere, and that the Kingdom of God is

682
00:40:26.800 --> 00:40:30.800
<v Speaker 2>at hand. It's here, He's here. S Paul said, the

683
00:40:30.880 --> 00:40:34.280
<v Speaker 2>Kingdom of God is peace, love, and joy in the

684
00:40:34.320 --> 00:40:37.320
<v Speaker 2>Holy Spirit. Last time I checked. You can have those.

685
00:40:37.360 --> 00:40:40.199
<v Speaker 1>Now when you talk about salvation, you say that we

686
00:40:40.199 --> 00:40:42.480
<v Speaker 1>don't have a legal problem, we have a communion problem.

687
00:40:42.559 --> 00:40:46.280
<v Speaker 1>What do you mean by that? And what's the significance

688
00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:49.719
<v Speaker 1>of the word communion and not communion in the eucharistic sense.

689
00:40:50.119 --> 00:40:52.960
<v Speaker 2>Well, what's the significance of the word legal? I mean

690
00:40:53.639 --> 00:40:57.000
<v Speaker 2>law is always outside me, isn't it. I mean if

691
00:40:57.039 --> 00:40:59.599
<v Speaker 2>I was speeding and got pulled for a speeding ticket,

692
00:40:59.639 --> 00:41:02.719
<v Speaker 2>that that meant I was a bad person. No, I

693
00:41:02.760 --> 00:41:06.320
<v Speaker 2>meant I broke a rule. Okay, there was a time

694
00:41:06.360 --> 00:41:08.679
<v Speaker 2>that you could only drive fifty five miles per hour

695
00:41:09.679 --> 00:41:14.960
<v Speaker 2>on the interstates, and a lot of us thought that

696
00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:20.599
<v Speaker 2>was a bad law, you know, and then they changed

697
00:41:20.639 --> 00:41:23.880
<v Speaker 2>it back to seventy miles per hour. Did we become

698
00:41:24.519 --> 00:41:28.719
<v Speaker 2>you know by driving? You know, legal is just it's

699
00:41:28.760 --> 00:41:33.960
<v Speaker 2>not anything. We have a communion problem in that our existence.

700
00:41:34.800 --> 00:41:37.360
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I say what it is for me to exist.

701
00:41:37.960 --> 00:41:42.280
<v Speaker 2>I exist by virtue of being in communion with God,

702
00:41:42.639 --> 00:41:45.000
<v Speaker 2>that He dwells in me, that I dwell in him.

703
00:41:45.679 --> 00:41:51.079
<v Speaker 2>That communion is the very nature of being. God is being,

704
00:41:51.199 --> 00:41:54.239
<v Speaker 2>and He's the fount of all being, as Paul quotes

705
00:41:54.400 --> 00:41:58.360
<v Speaker 2>in Acts, in Him, we live and move and have

706
00:41:58.639 --> 00:42:02.800
<v Speaker 2>our being. Saint Basil says in his eucharistic prayer, addresses

707
00:42:02.840 --> 00:42:08.159
<v Speaker 2>God as the only truly existing one. He is he

708
00:42:08.280 --> 00:42:10.639
<v Speaker 2>who is. And in the Old Testament and the Greek

709
00:42:10.639 --> 00:42:14.239
<v Speaker 2>Old Testament, when he says to Moses, I am that

710
00:42:14.320 --> 00:42:19.159
<v Speaker 2>I am is ago Amy, I am ego amy he

711
00:42:19.280 --> 00:42:22.039
<v Speaker 2>who is? I am he who is? Or I am

712
00:42:22.119 --> 00:42:26.519
<v Speaker 2>the only truly existing one. So that's what Basil is echoing.

713
00:42:26.760 --> 00:42:30.760
<v Speaker 2>We address God. That's Yahweh. In the Greek, he is

714
00:42:30.920 --> 00:42:33.480
<v Speaker 2>the one who is. So that's how we have existence.

715
00:42:33.519 --> 00:42:35.760
<v Speaker 2>All things come of the O Lord and of Thine own.

716
00:42:36.119 --> 00:42:39.480
<v Speaker 2>Have we given THEE thine own of thine own? We

717
00:42:39.639 --> 00:42:43.079
<v Speaker 2>offer unto thee on behalf of all and for all.

718
00:42:43.119 --> 00:42:46.559
<v Speaker 2>This is that's the very nature of being. Now, the

719
00:42:46.599 --> 00:42:51.639
<v Speaker 2>problem is what is sin? Sin is a movement like

720
00:42:51.679 --> 00:42:54.760
<v Speaker 2>you know that arrow thing. You know, it's a dynamic thing.

721
00:42:55.159 --> 00:42:59.559
<v Speaker 2>It miss armadilla, missing the mark. It is moving away

722
00:42:59.559 --> 00:43:03.559
<v Speaker 2>from the tive being and moving towards non being. That's

723
00:43:03.599 --> 00:43:06.400
<v Speaker 2>the nature of evil is It is like the devil,

724
00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:11.400
<v Speaker 2>he tries to not exist, and so to move towards

725
00:43:11.400 --> 00:43:14.639
<v Speaker 2>God is moved towards the fullness of being. You know,

726
00:43:14.800 --> 00:43:18.599
<v Speaker 2>I've come that they might have life, and that more abundantly,

727
00:43:18.639 --> 00:43:22.000
<v Speaker 2>He's come to give us the truth and fullness of being.

728
00:43:22.280 --> 00:43:24.360
<v Speaker 2>And so I mean and this is so this the

729
00:43:24.400 --> 00:43:28.039
<v Speaker 2>communion problem is the problem of sin. Sin is not

730
00:43:28.159 --> 00:43:30.960
<v Speaker 2>a legal problem. You know that I need to deal

731
00:43:30.960 --> 00:43:33.599
<v Speaker 2>with guilt on it. It strikes at the very core

732
00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:36.599
<v Speaker 2>of who I am and what I'm becoming. And I

733
00:43:36.639 --> 00:43:40.480
<v Speaker 2>don't want to be. I want to repent because I

734
00:43:40.519 --> 00:43:43.960
<v Speaker 2>want fullness of life. I don't want less than than life.

735
00:43:44.559 --> 00:43:47.920
<v Speaker 2>I want true life. You in dealing with you know,

736
00:43:48.400 --> 00:43:52.039
<v Speaker 2>working and volunteering in a recovery program. You know, a

737
00:43:52.039 --> 00:43:54.519
<v Speaker 2>lot of people there had sum to a very low point.

738
00:43:54.599 --> 00:43:59.079
<v Speaker 2>They had been moving towards addiction as the center of

739
00:43:59.119 --> 00:44:03.360
<v Speaker 2>their being, you know, and there's nothing there. If you

740
00:44:03.400 --> 00:44:06.760
<v Speaker 2>ever read the book I. C. S. Lewis of the

741
00:44:06.840 --> 00:44:10.239
<v Speaker 2>Great Divorce, No, but I've heard of it. Yeah, I

742
00:44:10.519 --> 00:44:12.559
<v Speaker 2>put that. Put that on the top of your pile,

743
00:44:12.960 --> 00:44:14.639
<v Speaker 2>move it, get it, put it on the bottom. Then

744
00:44:14.679 --> 00:44:16.719
<v Speaker 2>put it on the top of your pile and read it.

745
00:44:16.719 --> 00:44:20.400
<v Speaker 2>It's about a group of people describes heaven, and there's

746
00:44:20.400 --> 00:44:21.880
<v Speaker 2>a group of people that get on a bus to

747
00:44:21.920 --> 00:44:24.400
<v Speaker 2>go from hell to heaven, and they get there, they

748
00:44:24.440 --> 00:44:28.280
<v Speaker 2>can stay there, and it's a wonderful set of images

749
00:44:28.320 --> 00:44:30.079
<v Speaker 2>that he plays with and all of this, and it's

750
00:44:30.079 --> 00:44:33.400
<v Speaker 2>sort of a way of thinking without there being a

751
00:44:33.480 --> 00:44:38.079
<v Speaker 2>legal problem. There's an existence problem. They can stay, but

752
00:44:38.280 --> 00:44:42.840
<v Speaker 2>to stay, they have to be real and true. When

753
00:44:42.880 --> 00:44:47.760
<v Speaker 2>they get there, they're thin and ghostly, like, okay, they're

754
00:44:47.880 --> 00:44:51.960
<v Speaker 2>not quite real, but because heaven is real. Things like

755
00:44:52.039 --> 00:44:54.840
<v Speaker 2>walking on the grass is hard because it's spiky and

756
00:44:55.119 --> 00:44:58.280
<v Speaker 2>you're thin and ghosty and you can't you know your weight,

757
00:44:58.400 --> 00:45:01.000
<v Speaker 2>there's almost nothing to you. You can't press it down,

758
00:45:01.079 --> 00:45:03.159
<v Speaker 2>and so it's very hard for you to even walk,

759
00:45:03.639 --> 00:45:07.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, And so it's really fascinating. I mean, Lewis

760
00:45:07.079 --> 00:45:10.239
<v Speaker 2>is the genius of his of his writing and his

761
00:45:10.360 --> 00:45:12.639
<v Speaker 2>imagery in this. And they can stay. And there's a

762
00:45:12.679 --> 00:45:15.360
<v Speaker 2>group of solid people, as he calls them, who are

763
00:45:15.400 --> 00:45:18.880
<v Speaker 2>like saints, who've come to meet them to help them stay,

764
00:45:19.079 --> 00:45:21.280
<v Speaker 2>to help them deeper in the journey. They stay on

765
00:45:21.320 --> 00:45:23.599
<v Speaker 2>their journey and go in. They'll become more and more

766
00:45:23.639 --> 00:45:27.400
<v Speaker 2>solid until they are at home. And so Lewis uses

767
00:45:27.440 --> 00:45:31.079
<v Speaker 2>this as an opportunity for people to talk about with

768
00:45:31.159 --> 00:45:34.679
<v Speaker 2>a different set of images, about letting your sin go.

769
00:45:35.960 --> 00:45:38.719
<v Speaker 2>I read that thing in my late teen years and

770
00:45:38.760 --> 00:45:42.719
<v Speaker 2>it totally changed. It gave me images to think about

771
00:45:42.760 --> 00:45:48.920
<v Speaker 2>a communion issue, a life issue instead of illegal problem,

772
00:45:49.039 --> 00:45:52.719
<v Speaker 2>and I've stayed with it ever since. It is it's

773
00:45:52.719 --> 00:45:55.039
<v Speaker 2>a set of images. It's something he actually borrowed from

774
00:45:55.039 --> 00:45:57.599
<v Speaker 2>a science fiction book he read. But the set of

775
00:45:57.639 --> 00:46:02.199
<v Speaker 2>images is so good that it actually fits better what

776
00:46:02.239 --> 00:46:06.239
<v Speaker 2>I would call orthodox teaching on life and sin even

777
00:46:06.679 --> 00:46:10.119
<v Speaker 2>than most of the especially the moral accounts that are

778
00:46:10.199 --> 00:46:15.320
<v Speaker 2>so legalistic. Moralism, well, I mean yeah, moralism. I mean,

779
00:46:16.760 --> 00:46:20.199
<v Speaker 2>you pay your fine and it's done, but you're still

780
00:46:20.239 --> 00:46:20.840
<v Speaker 2>the same guy.

781
00:46:20.920 --> 00:46:21.480
<v Speaker 1>You were.

782
00:46:23.880 --> 00:46:28.519
<v Speaker 2>Right. Nothing has changed. It was said that Luther described

783
00:46:28.559 --> 00:46:33.880
<v Speaker 2>the Christian as a snow covered dunghill, But that also

784
00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:39.599
<v Speaker 2>says that a Christian is a pile of dung. That's heresy.

785
00:46:40.800 --> 00:46:43.719
<v Speaker 2>No human being is a pile of dung. People have

786
00:46:43.880 --> 00:46:48.639
<v Speaker 2>taken the scriptures that talk about sin, like for all

787
00:46:48.679 --> 00:46:51.440
<v Speaker 2>we have sinned and comes and fallen short of the

788
00:46:51.480 --> 00:46:54.079
<v Speaker 2>glory of God, and they turned that whole thing into

789
00:46:54.239 --> 00:46:57.920
<v Speaker 2>like a total depravity, or even the weird verse that

790
00:46:58.000 --> 00:47:02.880
<v Speaker 2>the heart is exceedingly wicked and deceitful above all things.

791
00:47:03.480 --> 00:47:06.199
<v Speaker 2>That's a translation of the Hebrew. But in the Greek,

792
00:47:06.920 --> 00:47:09.360
<v Speaker 2>it's very interesting does it say that at all? And

793
00:47:09.480 --> 00:47:12.639
<v Speaker 2>the Subtracon, which for the Orthodox is more authoritative than

794
00:47:12.639 --> 00:47:17.480
<v Speaker 2>the Hebrew. But in the Greek it says the heart

795
00:47:17.559 --> 00:47:23.519
<v Speaker 2>is deep, baffles, the heart is deep, and it is

796
00:47:23.880 --> 00:47:26.960
<v Speaker 2>the man who can know it. That's what it says

797
00:47:27.360 --> 00:47:31.000
<v Speaker 2>in the Greek. And if I've sat and pondered the

798
00:47:31.480 --> 00:47:34.559
<v Speaker 2>I read both languages. I sat and pondered the Hebrew

799
00:47:34.679 --> 00:47:36.679
<v Speaker 2>and looked at the Greek and wondered, were they looking

800
00:47:36.719 --> 00:47:39.239
<v Speaker 2>at a different Hebrew text? Or is that how they

801
00:47:39.360 --> 00:47:42.800
<v Speaker 2>read the Hebrew? Text, and I think they were not

802
00:47:42.880 --> 00:47:45.239
<v Speaker 2>working from a different text. I think that's how they

803
00:47:45.280 --> 00:47:49.400
<v Speaker 2>translated the Hebrew text. If you will, that is how

804
00:47:49.840 --> 00:47:54.880
<v Speaker 2>a Jew in the third century BC or two hundreds BC,

805
00:47:56.280 --> 00:48:01.840
<v Speaker 2>reading in Alexandria, reading his own Hebrew scripture rendered It's

806
00:48:01.880 --> 00:48:07.239
<v Speaker 2>how he understood it. Now, that's interesting, and that verse

807
00:48:07.239 --> 00:48:11.400
<v Speaker 2>has been so twisted in which we're depraved, we're a dunghill.

808
00:48:11.559 --> 00:48:14.679
<v Speaker 2>I remember, as a teenager in the Jesus movement hearing

809
00:48:14.719 --> 00:48:19.559
<v Speaker 2>that and being disgusted by it and praying and said, Jesus,

810
00:48:19.960 --> 00:48:23.119
<v Speaker 2>I want to be a snow covered snow hill. If

811
00:48:23.159 --> 00:48:27.360
<v Speaker 2>I'm dung, I want to become snow. And the first

812
00:48:27.400 --> 00:48:32.320
<v Speaker 2>time I read the first Orthodox book I read in college,

813
00:48:32.320 --> 00:48:34.000
<v Speaker 2>a friend gave it to me. One of my Jesus

814
00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:37.840
<v Speaker 2>freaquentddies gave me this book by Vladimir Lawsky, the Mystical

815
00:48:37.880 --> 00:48:40.639
<v Speaker 2>Theology the Eastern Church, which is so difficult. I didn't

816
00:48:40.719 --> 00:48:44.360
<v Speaker 2>understand most of it. But what I did understand, I

817
00:48:44.400 --> 00:48:48.840
<v Speaker 2>got very clear that I am not a dunghill, that

818
00:48:49.039 --> 00:48:53.000
<v Speaker 2>we're not dunge we are created, and that we're created

819
00:48:53.039 --> 00:48:57.199
<v Speaker 2>to be restored to the fullness of Communion. That God

820
00:48:57.320 --> 00:49:01.320
<v Speaker 2>became man that man might become God. God became what

821
00:49:01.360 --> 00:49:06.280
<v Speaker 2>we are, that we might become what he is. Jen.

822
00:49:06.800 --> 00:49:11.079
<v Speaker 2>According to the early fathers Dionysius Eriapaguide very very clear,

823
00:49:12.400 --> 00:49:17.960
<v Speaker 2>is a evil, is a parasite. It's it's not a thing,

824
00:49:18.079 --> 00:49:20.440
<v Speaker 2>it's a I mean, it has no existence. It's a

825
00:49:20.559 --> 00:49:24.320
<v Speaker 2>like a parasite. Jen. I've got an article on my

826
00:49:24.360 --> 00:49:28.559
<v Speaker 2>blog somewhere that you are not your sin. Hmmm, it's

827
00:49:28.599 --> 00:49:29.920
<v Speaker 2>not you are not your sin.

828
00:49:30.639 --> 00:49:34.119
<v Speaker 1>I've always struggled to reconcile the snow covered dung with

829
00:49:35.199 --> 00:49:38.760
<v Speaker 1>the amalgo day and how how the two can coexist?

830
00:49:39.400 --> 00:49:43.679
<v Speaker 2>Right right? Well, there's it's just not there. In Orthodoxy,

831
00:49:43.920 --> 00:49:47.880
<v Speaker 2>we are created good and the fall is a fall,

832
00:49:48.000 --> 00:49:51.559
<v Speaker 2>a sort of a performative fall in which we fall

833
00:49:51.760 --> 00:49:54.840
<v Speaker 2>from the goodness we are. But for instance, in Orthodoxy,

834
00:49:55.280 --> 00:49:58.679
<v Speaker 2>we believe that children are inherently good. They are not

835
00:49:58.760 --> 00:50:02.159
<v Speaker 2>inherent little sinners. They don't need spanking in order to

836
00:50:02.239 --> 00:50:06.800
<v Speaker 2>become better people. They need adults not to abuse them.

837
00:50:06.920 --> 00:50:09.360
<v Speaker 2>They need to be loved, they need to be nurtured.

838
00:50:09.400 --> 00:50:11.400
<v Speaker 2>There's a lot of things they need. But Jesus is

839
00:50:11.559 --> 00:50:15.599
<v Speaker 2>very clear in warning people about the dangers of abusing children.

840
00:50:15.760 --> 00:50:20.280
<v Speaker 2>He treats them as innocent. They're angels. Their angels continuously

841
00:50:20.360 --> 00:50:23.119
<v Speaker 2>behold the face of God. This is I mean, it's

842
00:50:23.159 --> 00:50:27.320
<v Speaker 2>a gosh, it's strong, strong language. I love seeing the

843
00:50:27.320 --> 00:50:29.480
<v Speaker 2>little children at church, and we have so many of

844
00:50:29.480 --> 00:50:32.480
<v Speaker 2>them these days at our perish. I look at them

845
00:50:32.519 --> 00:50:35.880
<v Speaker 2>and they are like little angels. They're innocent, you know.

846
00:50:36.239 --> 00:50:40.199
<v Speaker 2>So why do we baptize them. Well, you know that

847
00:50:40.360 --> 00:50:44.440
<v Speaker 2>baptism will work against sin eventually, but we baptize them

848
00:50:44.480 --> 00:50:47.039
<v Speaker 2>because what does it say that we do in baptism.

849
00:50:47.199 --> 00:50:50.079
<v Speaker 2>It's Saint Paul says, we are baptized into his death

850
00:50:51.960 --> 00:50:56.519
<v Speaker 2>and raised in the likeness of his resurrection. We become

851
00:50:56.559 --> 00:50:59.840
<v Speaker 2>partakers of his death, not just our death, but his

852
00:51:00.079 --> 00:51:04.840
<v Speaker 2>his death, his death, his holy death. We are through baptism,

853
00:51:05.000 --> 00:51:07.119
<v Speaker 2>united to that. This is like, this is sacraments, and

854
00:51:07.159 --> 00:51:11.199
<v Speaker 2>sacraments are always about union. We become one with what's happening.

855
00:51:11.440 --> 00:51:15.360
<v Speaker 2>It becomes operative in us when united with the death

856
00:51:15.480 --> 00:51:19.800
<v Speaker 2>of Christ. In baptism, united with the resurrection of Christ

857
00:51:20.239 --> 00:51:22.280
<v Speaker 2>is we are raised in Him. So why do we

858
00:51:22.280 --> 00:51:24.199
<v Speaker 2>do that with children? Because we want them to be

859
00:51:24.280 --> 00:51:26.679
<v Speaker 2>united to the death of Christ and raised in his resurrection,

860
00:51:27.199 --> 00:51:31.960
<v Speaker 2>And though the Catholics will baptize an infant, they won't

861
00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:35.119
<v Speaker 2>give them communion, at least not the Roman Catholics and

862
00:51:35.159 --> 00:51:38.599
<v Speaker 2>Eastern Catholics, who the Roman Catholics won't. What do we do.

863
00:51:38.920 --> 00:51:41.639
<v Speaker 2>We Christ make them at the same time we baptism,

864
00:51:41.719 --> 00:51:45.400
<v Speaker 2>which is what this postponed confirmation is in the Western Church.

865
00:51:45.719 --> 00:51:48.599
<v Speaker 2>We Christ make them and give them communion on the

866
00:51:48.679 --> 00:51:54.440
<v Speaker 2>day of their baptism because they are fully united with Christ.

867
00:51:55.760 --> 00:51:58.760
<v Speaker 2>What do adults say? Do you unite yourself to Christ?

868
00:51:59.280 --> 00:52:03.039
<v Speaker 2>I do unite myself to Christ. That's the translations in

869
00:52:03.119 --> 00:52:06.760
<v Speaker 2>the baptism service in the Oca. Do you unite yourself

870
00:52:06.800 --> 00:52:10.000
<v Speaker 2>to Christ? I do unite myself to Christ. That I

871
00:52:10.079 --> 00:52:13.239
<v Speaker 2>tell people. That's Orthodox, for have you accepted Jesus Christ

872
00:52:13.320 --> 00:52:16.800
<v Speaker 2>as your personal Lord and Savior? Well, it's better in

873
00:52:16.920 --> 00:52:21.280
<v Speaker 2>older language. I do unite myself to Christ. I unite

874
00:52:21.320 --> 00:52:24.320
<v Speaker 2>myself to him because He has united myself to me.

875
00:52:24.400 --> 00:52:28.119
<v Speaker 2>I am accepting his union with me, and I am

876
00:52:28.199 --> 00:52:30.840
<v Speaker 2>saved by that union. In fact, if you go back

877
00:52:30.880 --> 00:52:36.000
<v Speaker 2>through and read the New Testament with the doctrine of

878
00:52:36.159 --> 00:52:40.400
<v Speaker 2>union in your mind, it will reread the whole thing

879
00:52:40.519 --> 00:52:42.840
<v Speaker 2>for you and you think, gosh, that's all it ever

880
00:52:42.920 --> 00:52:47.480
<v Speaker 2>talks about. It's all it ever talks about. The passages

881
00:52:47.519 --> 00:52:51.239
<v Speaker 2>on sin only ever really make sense if they're read

882
00:52:51.280 --> 00:52:57.599
<v Speaker 2>that way. Grace is nothing other than the life, the

883
00:52:57.800 --> 00:53:02.199
<v Speaker 2>very life of God, his divine energies. That is grace,

884
00:53:02.639 --> 00:53:05.840
<v Speaker 2>the very life of God in me. As Saint Paul says,

885
00:53:05.920 --> 00:53:08.639
<v Speaker 2>God is working in you, willing to do of his

886
00:53:08.679 --> 00:53:12.280
<v Speaker 2>good pleasure. The word working is in the gaia. It's

887
00:53:12.320 --> 00:53:16.800
<v Speaker 2>the energies God is energizing in me. That's grace, gracing

888
00:53:16.880 --> 00:53:21.880
<v Speaker 2>in me that I might do the energies of God.

889
00:53:22.199 --> 00:53:25.760
<v Speaker 2>So it's all union, union, union, there's nothing else.

890
00:53:26.800 --> 00:53:29.119
<v Speaker 1>And and so God, you know, the more I think

891
00:53:29.159 --> 00:53:31.960
<v Speaker 1>about it and preparing for this with you, really I

892
00:53:31.960 --> 00:53:36.360
<v Speaker 1>put down union with reality is really just union with

893
00:53:36.440 --> 00:53:42.039
<v Speaker 1>godly because Christ himself is reality. And so that's that's why,

894
00:53:42.199 --> 00:53:45.239
<v Speaker 1>you know, once again getting back to everything reality like

895
00:53:45.440 --> 00:53:49.400
<v Speaker 1>we flattened it. This is why I'm so consumed by

896
00:53:49.440 --> 00:53:54.079
<v Speaker 1>your writing on a one story universe, because we live

897
00:53:54.239 --> 00:53:56.719
<v Speaker 1>as you talk about Lewis wretched flat landers.

898
00:53:57.360 --> 00:54:00.639
<v Speaker 2>Yep, we live and move and have our being in God.

899
00:54:00.920 --> 00:54:05.920
<v Speaker 2>The trees, the trees, you know, they've grown and travail.

900
00:54:06.400 --> 00:54:09.880
<v Speaker 2>I mean, all the creation groans and travails. Why it

901
00:54:10.000 --> 00:54:13.679
<v Speaker 2>groans for the that it might become a partaker of

902
00:54:13.920 --> 00:54:16.920
<v Speaker 2>it in the fullness of our freedom, that it might

903
00:54:17.119 --> 00:54:19.920
<v Speaker 2>be partakers of the liberty of the sons of God.

904
00:54:20.000 --> 00:54:23.519
<v Speaker 2>And it's in Roman's eight he when at the return

905
00:54:23.559 --> 00:54:25.280
<v Speaker 2>of Christ, and that, if you will, the veil is

906
00:54:25.559 --> 00:54:28.480
<v Speaker 2>taken away, and all things are revealed in the fullness

907
00:54:28.480 --> 00:54:30.800
<v Speaker 2>of how they are. But see in Christ the veil

908
00:54:30.880 --> 00:54:33.360
<v Speaker 2>is already taken away. So what do we see happening

909
00:54:33.519 --> 00:54:37.840
<v Speaker 2>with Jesus. Well, Jesus walks on water. He doesn't change

910
00:54:37.880 --> 00:54:40.840
<v Speaker 2>the nature of water, just fiells. Water is in right

911
00:54:40.880 --> 00:54:44.320
<v Speaker 2>relationship with him, you know, and he walks on it.

912
00:54:44.559 --> 00:54:47.039
<v Speaker 2>He's not afraid of it. I mean, if you will,

913
00:54:47.639 --> 00:54:50.000
<v Speaker 2>Jesus in the back of the boat when there's the storm,

914
00:54:50.239 --> 00:54:52.639
<v Speaker 2>I love this. What is Jesus doing in the back

915
00:54:52.679 --> 00:54:57.760
<v Speaker 2>of the boat. He's sleeping. Storms don't bother Jesus. By

916
00:54:57.800 --> 00:55:00.760
<v Speaker 2>the way, what was Jonah doing in the boat when

917
00:55:00.800 --> 00:55:04.599
<v Speaker 2>the other guys woke him up to complain about the storm.

918
00:55:04.760 --> 00:55:06.519
<v Speaker 2>Jonah was sleeping at the back of the boat. The

919
00:55:06.559 --> 00:55:09.119
<v Speaker 2>same reason. Jonah knows God and he's sleeping on the

920
00:55:09.159 --> 00:55:12.280
<v Speaker 2>back of the boat. You know, he's already I love.

921
00:55:12.519 --> 00:55:14.920
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I'm old and retired and I take walks.

922
00:55:15.000 --> 00:55:16.719
<v Speaker 2>I try to walk a mile a day. I can't

923
00:55:16.719 --> 00:55:19.719
<v Speaker 2>get it done every day because various health issues will

924
00:55:19.760 --> 00:55:21.840
<v Speaker 2>prevent me. But on a good day, I've walked a mile,

925
00:55:22.480 --> 00:55:27.079
<v Speaker 2>and you know. And I love knowing the trees. I

926
00:55:27.119 --> 00:55:30.239
<v Speaker 2>love paying attention to them. I love knowing the seasons

927
00:55:30.800 --> 00:55:33.800
<v Speaker 2>and listening to it, noticing it, praying in the middle

928
00:55:33.840 --> 00:55:37.119
<v Speaker 2>of it, giving thanks for it. You know. I love Lewis.

929
00:55:37.199 --> 00:55:40.239
<v Speaker 2>I also love Tolkien. This is my main complaint about

930
00:55:40.280 --> 00:55:44.400
<v Speaker 2>the people talking about re enchanting, is that the world

931
00:55:44.559 --> 00:55:48.639
<v Speaker 2>is enchanted and you don't have to re enchant anything.

932
00:55:49.039 --> 00:55:51.840
<v Speaker 2>It just it just always is in him we live

933
00:55:51.880 --> 00:55:54.079
<v Speaker 2>and move and her being. The other side of it

934
00:55:54.119 --> 00:55:57.480
<v Speaker 2>is is that there is Secutarism does have an enchantment,

935
00:55:58.760 --> 00:56:01.599
<v Speaker 2>and that enchantment is that's why we've been lulled to sleep.

936
00:56:02.119 --> 00:56:05.760
<v Speaker 2>And if you will, don't even think Narnia exists. That's

937
00:56:05.800 --> 00:56:09.320
<v Speaker 2>in the Silver Chair, by the way Lewis's Narnia chronicles.

938
00:56:09.719 --> 00:56:12.440
<v Speaker 2>We think that Narnia isn't true, but it is. If

939
00:56:12.440 --> 00:56:16.280
<v Speaker 2>you will one Catholic writer wrote very well about it,

940
00:56:16.280 --> 00:56:20.280
<v Speaker 2>said that the enchantment, in fact, his book is called

941
00:56:20.280 --> 00:56:23.519
<v Speaker 2>The Enchantment of Mammon, that the enchantment of our modern

942
00:56:23.519 --> 00:56:27.880
<v Speaker 2>world is mattern. The ontology of the modern world is money.

943
00:56:29.039 --> 00:56:31.639
<v Speaker 2>The modern world thinks that in money we live and

944
00:56:31.719 --> 00:56:34.840
<v Speaker 2>move and have our being. That money is what makes

945
00:56:34.880 --> 00:56:38.239
<v Speaker 2>the world go round, and we've fallen in love with it,

946
00:56:39.320 --> 00:56:42.880
<v Speaker 2>and this is what constitutes our life. That's why monasticism

947
00:56:42.960 --> 00:56:46.119
<v Speaker 2>is so terribly important in Orthodoxy, so central that we

948
00:56:46.239 --> 00:56:52.559
<v Speaker 2>have people among us who have said no to money,

949
00:56:52.559 --> 00:56:56.239
<v Speaker 2>have said no to money, and Jesus warns us that

950
00:56:56.280 --> 00:56:59.960
<v Speaker 2>you cannot serve God in money, cannot serve God in Manma.

951
00:57:00.719 --> 00:57:03.079
<v Speaker 2>And so our modern world is in love with Mammon,

952
00:57:03.840 --> 00:57:07.159
<v Speaker 2>and we can't do that. So I tell people keep

953
00:57:07.199 --> 00:57:11.199
<v Speaker 2>the commandments, you know, give your stuff away, I mean, like,

954
00:57:11.440 --> 00:57:14.039
<v Speaker 2>share your stuff. Be sure. You know. My father in

955
00:57:14.159 --> 00:57:17.039
<v Speaker 2>law was the greatest Baptist I've ever known. He practiced

956
00:57:17.039 --> 00:57:20.519
<v Speaker 2>a tithe. He was very serious about the tithe. In fact,

957
00:57:21.119 --> 00:57:23.599
<v Speaker 2>he thanked God for all things, and so much so

958
00:57:23.840 --> 00:57:26.159
<v Speaker 2>he should have been Orthodox, but he he thanked God

959
00:57:26.199 --> 00:57:29.559
<v Speaker 2>for all things, including He thought having insurance was a sin.

960
00:57:29.920 --> 00:57:32.719
<v Speaker 2>It was like not trust in God. But then he

961
00:57:32.760 --> 00:57:34.920
<v Speaker 2>thought people would think I'm being cheap. So he hadn't

962
00:57:34.920 --> 00:57:37.440
<v Speaker 2>found out what his insurance would cost, and he gave

963
00:57:37.519 --> 00:57:43.880
<v Speaker 2>that above his tithe and God took care of him.

964
00:57:44.079 --> 00:57:46.760
<v Speaker 2>He died in his eighties with no bills.

965
00:57:47.519 --> 00:57:49.599
<v Speaker 1>When I was reading your book, I started to think

966
00:57:49.639 --> 00:57:54.039
<v Speaker 1>about money, yeah, And I started to think about right action,

967
00:57:54.719 --> 00:57:58.599
<v Speaker 1>like what we ought to do. Yeah. And you talked

968
00:57:58.639 --> 00:58:03.440
<v Speaker 1>about how the of God, including the temple, the church,

969
00:58:04.119 --> 00:58:09.000
<v Speaker 1>icons that we should always approach them with right reverence. Yes, yes,

970
00:58:09.039 --> 00:58:14.039
<v Speaker 1>and yet sometimes you know, especially being new in orthodoxy,

971
00:58:14.199 --> 00:58:15.559
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I canot give you all of this. It's

972
00:58:15.840 --> 00:58:19.039
<v Speaker 1>I'm still trying to still to this day, trying to

973
00:58:19.039 --> 00:58:22.960
<v Speaker 1>get my bunny ears in the right configuration and really,

974
00:58:23.599 --> 00:58:29.519
<v Speaker 1>you know, recalibrate my conception of reality rightly understood. And

975
00:58:30.800 --> 00:58:32.960
<v Speaker 1>I thought, you know, sometimes I'll walk into the church

976
00:58:33.000 --> 00:58:35.920
<v Speaker 1>and I'll see people do they'll make prostrations, they'll do things,

977
00:58:35.960 --> 00:58:40.000
<v Speaker 1>and I won't do them because I feel embarrassed or something.

978
00:58:41.199 --> 00:58:45.280
<v Speaker 1>But I thought, if somebody told me, when you walk

979
00:58:45.320 --> 00:58:50.320
<v Speaker 1>into that church, I will give you, and my price

980
00:58:50.400 --> 00:58:52.800
<v Speaker 1>is pretty low. I mean, I'll give you one hundred bucks.

981
00:58:52.800 --> 00:58:55.199
<v Speaker 1>If you go in there and you bow your forehead

982
00:58:55.199 --> 00:58:58.239
<v Speaker 1>to the I would probably do it. Now, what does

983
00:58:58.280 --> 00:59:01.920
<v Speaker 1>that say about what motivates me? Is the fear of God?

984
00:59:02.000 --> 00:59:03.920
<v Speaker 1>Not that, not the fear of fear like we were

985
00:59:03.920 --> 00:59:07.880
<v Speaker 1>talking about, but the respect, the awe, the reverence is

986
00:59:07.960 --> 00:59:10.039
<v Speaker 1>that in front of money, well right there, and then

987
00:59:10.559 --> 00:59:12.559
<v Speaker 1>it shows that it isn't And that's you know.

988
00:59:12.559 --> 00:59:15.199
<v Speaker 2>That's I will say, there's a drawback. You belong to

989
00:59:15.239 --> 00:59:19.559
<v Speaker 2>a large, prosperous church in Charlotte. When I became Orthodox,

990
00:59:19.719 --> 00:59:22.760
<v Speaker 2>we started in a living room and I didn't even

991
00:59:22.840 --> 00:59:25.559
<v Speaker 2>know what I was doing. I just knew. I knew

992
00:59:25.559 --> 00:59:27.559
<v Speaker 2>the doctrines, but I didn't know the rest of it.

993
00:59:27.599 --> 00:59:32.719
<v Speaker 2>And starting the missions that I started, we started in warehouses, storefronts,

994
00:59:32.920 --> 00:59:37.159
<v Speaker 2>living rooms, awful places. We had a couple of icons

995
00:59:37.519 --> 00:59:40.199
<v Speaker 2>on music stands, I mean the little wire music stands

996
00:59:40.239 --> 00:59:42.039
<v Speaker 2>like from band camp or something. I mean, not even

997
00:59:42.079 --> 00:59:45.639
<v Speaker 2>the nice ones, just on music stands, and it was

998
00:59:46.360 --> 00:59:50.000
<v Speaker 2>oh man, and we were mostly just converts with a

999
00:59:50.000 --> 00:59:54.440
<v Speaker 2>couple of cradles. We became part of us, but it

1000
00:59:54.480 --> 00:59:58.920
<v Speaker 2>was hard and learning to do it. Yeah, and and Orthodox,

1001
00:59:58.920 --> 01:00:03.000
<v Speaker 2>he's trying to teach how to how to venerate you

1002
01:00:03.079 --> 01:00:07.840
<v Speaker 2>know what we venerate money in America. We admire it's

1003
01:00:07.920 --> 01:00:10.679
<v Speaker 2>we admire rich people. That's why I brought it up.

1004
01:00:10.679 --> 01:00:12.239
<v Speaker 2>I didn't bring it up, and I talked to my

1005
01:00:12.280 --> 01:00:12.880
<v Speaker 2>brother about it.

1006
01:00:12.920 --> 01:00:14.679
<v Speaker 1>And I don't think I phrased it the right way

1007
01:00:14.719 --> 01:00:17.840
<v Speaker 1>because especially when I when I brought it in the

1008
01:00:17.880 --> 01:00:21.639
<v Speaker 1>context of coming into Orthodoxy. But I think this applies

1009
01:00:21.679 --> 01:00:26.119
<v Speaker 1>to all Christians of any especially in the West and America.

1010
01:00:26.639 --> 01:00:31.639
<v Speaker 1>We really do put money, power, prestige, fame ahead.

1011
01:00:31.800 --> 01:00:33.800
<v Speaker 2>And it was Orthodox to do it too. Well. You know,

1012
01:00:34.159 --> 01:00:36.519
<v Speaker 2>some football players Orthodox and we want to have him

1013
01:00:36.519 --> 01:00:40.000
<v Speaker 2>come and talk, you know, or whatever. You know, president

1014
01:00:40.119 --> 01:00:42.360
<v Speaker 2>of Chick fil A, and we want to have him

1015
01:00:42.360 --> 01:00:45.719
<v Speaker 2>come and talk or something like that. And I know

1016
01:00:46.320 --> 01:00:49.880
<v Speaker 2>it is I got to admit I totally loved well.

1017
01:00:50.159 --> 01:00:54.599
<v Speaker 2>When I converted, I had to have a non church

1018
01:00:54.719 --> 01:00:57.000
<v Speaker 2>job for a couple of years because no way the

1019
01:00:57.039 --> 01:00:59.960
<v Speaker 2>missions could pay me and I had to support my fear.

1020
01:01:00.239 --> 01:01:02.840
<v Speaker 2>So I got a job working for hospice, and so

1021
01:01:02.920 --> 01:01:05.800
<v Speaker 2>I worked for two years as a home health hospice

1022
01:01:05.880 --> 01:01:09.719
<v Speaker 2>chaplain out in the mountains of East Tennessee. And so

1023
01:01:09.960 --> 01:01:12.480
<v Speaker 2>I was going from shack to shack on the sides

1024
01:01:12.519 --> 01:01:16.400
<v Speaker 2>of mountains, visiting dying people, black lung cancer, or whatever

1025
01:01:16.440 --> 01:01:21.320
<v Speaker 2>it was. Protestants had ever even seen a college educated preacher,

1026
01:01:21.440 --> 01:01:26.760
<v Speaker 2>much less a seminary educated preacher, and man, they lived

1027
01:01:26.760 --> 01:01:29.880
<v Speaker 2>a one story universe. No one ever taught them that.

1028
01:01:29.920 --> 01:01:32.519
<v Speaker 2>They just lived it. And there's a lot of things

1029
01:01:32.559 --> 01:01:36.039
<v Speaker 2>about the poor. I've learned over the years that if

1030
01:01:36.079 --> 01:01:39.880
<v Speaker 2>you need money, ask a poor man. If you need money,

1031
01:01:40.119 --> 01:01:43.360
<v Speaker 2>a poor man will share what he has with you.

1032
01:01:43.639 --> 01:01:47.000
<v Speaker 2>The wealthy might help you out, but there are always

1033
01:01:47.039 --> 01:01:50.320
<v Speaker 2>strings attached. They want to know that you'll use it correctly.

1034
01:01:51.960 --> 01:01:55.199
<v Speaker 2>You know. C. S. Lewis. A guy approached him on

1035
01:01:55.239 --> 01:01:58.599
<v Speaker 2>the street once and asked for, you know, money, and

1036
01:01:58.639 --> 01:02:01.440
<v Speaker 2>so Lewis gives him a pen and as the guy leaves,

1037
01:02:01.639 --> 01:02:04.079
<v Speaker 2>the guy that Lewis is with said, you know, he's

1038
01:02:04.119 --> 01:02:06.159
<v Speaker 2>only going to use it to buy a pint. And

1039
01:02:06.239 --> 01:02:08.360
<v Speaker 2>Louis said, well, that's what I'm just going to do

1040
01:02:08.440 --> 01:02:11.920
<v Speaker 2>with it. Father.

1041
01:02:13.719 --> 01:02:17.000
<v Speaker 1>I'll tell you a story. So I studied abroad in

1042
01:02:17.039 --> 01:02:21.679
<v Speaker 1>West Africa and Ghana, and the first week or two

1043
01:02:21.760 --> 01:02:26.840
<v Speaker 1>there maybe sure first week, man, it was like I

1044
01:02:26.920 --> 01:02:31.360
<v Speaker 1>gradually extended my circumference that I was willing to go

1045
01:02:31.519 --> 01:02:34.360
<v Speaker 1>out like I was just scared of everything, you know,

1046
01:02:34.400 --> 01:02:37.480
<v Speaker 1>the next day I'd go one hundred yards further. Felt

1047
01:02:37.480 --> 01:02:41.639
<v Speaker 1>like such a foreign place. It was truly transformative in

1048
01:02:41.679 --> 01:02:44.559
<v Speaker 1>so many ways. But one thing when I came back,

1049
01:02:45.199 --> 01:02:47.960
<v Speaker 1>people would say, oh, wow, you were in Africa? Was

1050
01:02:47.960 --> 01:02:50.840
<v Speaker 1>it hard with all the poor people? And I thought,

1051
01:02:51.800 --> 01:02:54.960
<v Speaker 1>of all the things that I think about, that was

1052
01:02:55.039 --> 01:03:00.360
<v Speaker 1>not really on the list, And it was because exactly

1053
01:03:00.360 --> 01:03:04.559
<v Speaker 1>what you're saying, I and I saw that we don't. Okay,

1054
01:03:04.760 --> 01:03:07.119
<v Speaker 1>I don't say this that we have poor people in America,

1055
01:03:07.360 --> 01:03:11.079
<v Speaker 1>but the poor, the poorest of the poor. I mean

1056
01:03:11.119 --> 01:03:14.199
<v Speaker 1>I saw out there, and yet that is not what

1057
01:03:14.360 --> 01:03:17.079
<v Speaker 1>registered with me. It's that I would go out there

1058
01:03:17.119 --> 01:03:19.920
<v Speaker 1>with them, and I'd be in the middle of the bush,

1059
01:03:20.800 --> 01:03:24.840
<v Speaker 1>in living circumstances that no American would ever accept. And

1060
01:03:24.920 --> 01:03:28.559
<v Speaker 1>yet I saw happiness. I saw.

1061
01:03:31.320 --> 01:03:34.199
<v Speaker 2>People go into the third so called Third world Christians

1062
01:03:34.199 --> 01:03:37.840
<v Speaker 2>on their missions, they invariably come back describing the Christians

1063
01:03:37.880 --> 01:03:41.119
<v Speaker 2>there who are so joyful, far more joyful than we are.

1064
01:03:41.280 --> 01:03:45.480
<v Speaker 2>We write books on the anxious generation. I mean, we're

1065
01:03:45.880 --> 01:03:51.679
<v Speaker 2>we're dying. Secularism is death. Secutarism is death because God

1066
01:03:52.039 --> 01:03:53.639
<v Speaker 2>and Him we live and move and heaver being. And

1067
01:03:53.639 --> 01:03:57.239
<v Speaker 2>if you're not in communion with God. By actively living

1068
01:03:57.239 --> 01:04:00.639
<v Speaker 2>in community with God, then you're very likely you know,

1069
01:04:01.039 --> 01:04:05.440
<v Speaker 2>And strictly speaking, you can't exist out of communion with God.

1070
01:04:05.480 --> 01:04:08.800
<v Speaker 2>I mean he'll sustain you anyway. I mean, he sustains

1071
01:04:08.840 --> 01:04:12.719
<v Speaker 2>the devil, so he'll sustain you. But nonetheless you're not

1072
01:04:12.840 --> 01:04:15.079
<v Speaker 2>living into the fullness of that. And yet what you

1073
01:04:15.239 --> 01:04:17.840
<v Speaker 2>discover when you're there is they have a faith that

1074
01:04:17.880 --> 01:04:21.559
<v Speaker 2>will put yours to shame. They have you know, they

1075
01:04:21.679 --> 01:04:25.480
<v Speaker 2>keep the commandments as a way of life. If someone

1076
01:04:25.519 --> 01:04:27.599
<v Speaker 2>asks their coat, they give them their cloak calls. So

1077
01:04:27.679 --> 01:04:30.079
<v Speaker 2>they just do these things joyfully.

1078
01:04:30.559 --> 01:04:33.400
<v Speaker 1>Joyfully. I mean, if I needed a shirt, they would

1079
01:04:33.400 --> 01:04:36.000
<v Speaker 1>give me their last shirt, and the way that And

1080
01:04:36.239 --> 01:04:38.360
<v Speaker 1>I never want to get it twisted that like people,

1081
01:04:38.440 --> 01:04:41.119
<v Speaker 1>because people will push back and say, well, are they

1082
01:04:41.119 --> 01:04:44.960
<v Speaker 1>really happy? Of course they're not happy with their situation.

1083
01:04:45.639 --> 01:04:48.320
<v Speaker 1>If they could switch, they would gladly. There's a there's

1084
01:04:48.360 --> 01:04:51.400
<v Speaker 1>a very fine distinction between being happy with and happy

1085
01:04:51.440 --> 01:04:56.519
<v Speaker 1>in and I saw happiness in their situation and I

1086
01:04:56.639 --> 01:04:59.639
<v Speaker 1>brought back I mean I stopped thinking about poverty. I

1087
01:04:59.679 --> 01:05:01.840
<v Speaker 1>mean not, okay, you think about it you want to

1088
01:05:01.840 --> 01:05:03.760
<v Speaker 1>solve it, you want to get better. But that wasn't

1089
01:05:03.760 --> 01:05:06.599
<v Speaker 1>the big takeaway for me. The takeaway was that we

1090
01:05:06.679 --> 01:05:13.079
<v Speaker 1>live in poverty. America preaches America. The bulk of many missionaries,

1091
01:05:13.239 --> 01:05:16.519
<v Speaker 1>regardless of whatever versions of the Gospel they take with them,

1092
01:05:16.920 --> 01:05:23.760
<v Speaker 1>preach America. We preach democracy, we preach capitalism, we preach

1093
01:05:24.039 --> 01:05:29.119
<v Speaker 1>hard work, we preach success, we preach financial blessing, we

1094
01:05:29.239 --> 01:05:32.239
<v Speaker 1>preach all of these things that Americans take for granted.

1095
01:05:32.320 --> 01:05:35.440
<v Speaker 1>And we actually all believe that if they would practice

1096
01:05:35.440 --> 01:05:36.760
<v Speaker 1>these things rightly.

1097
01:05:36.719 --> 01:05:39.679
<v Speaker 2>They would succeed just like us. And we believe that,

1098
01:05:39.800 --> 01:05:42.960
<v Speaker 2>we really do believe that that the americanization of the

1099
01:05:43.000 --> 01:05:46.320
<v Speaker 2>world and its Christianization would be pretty much the same thing.

1100
01:05:46.599 --> 01:05:49.320
<v Speaker 2>Of course, it's a blatant lie. Europe had all of

1101
01:05:49.360 --> 01:05:51.800
<v Speaker 2>these things once upon a time, and they can barely

1102
01:05:51.840 --> 01:05:56.079
<v Speaker 2>sustain a church. I mean, the Anglican Church in England

1103
01:05:56.159 --> 01:05:58.960
<v Speaker 2>is less than five percent of the population and it's

1104
01:05:59.039 --> 01:06:03.679
<v Speaker 2>the state church for Heaven Sex. You know. I mean, but.

1105
01:06:05.159 --> 01:06:07.400
<v Speaker 1>You know, I think, because what you're talking about is

1106
01:06:08.119 --> 01:06:11.400
<v Speaker 1>we get into all these culture wars. Yeah, and I

1107
01:06:11.400 --> 01:06:14.679
<v Speaker 1>think should Christians be less concerned with culture wars and

1108
01:06:14.719 --> 01:06:19.280
<v Speaker 1>more concerned with recovering reality itself a right view of it.

1109
01:06:19.480 --> 01:06:21.559
<v Speaker 2>The problem is, I've been trying to find a way

1110
01:06:21.639 --> 01:06:24.360
<v Speaker 2>I want to write about this, probably just a blog article.

1111
01:06:25.280 --> 01:06:30.000
<v Speaker 2>But politics is the religion of the modern world. Yes,

1112
01:06:30.519 --> 01:06:34.199
<v Speaker 2>because I mean everybody in America thinks he's in management.

1113
01:06:35.760 --> 01:06:38.239
<v Speaker 2>I mean, everybody in modernity believes their management. And so

1114
01:06:38.880 --> 01:06:42.920
<v Speaker 2>we all became epidemiologists. During the pandemic. We knew how

1115
01:06:42.960 --> 01:06:45.280
<v Speaker 2>virus is spread and how to manage it. We are

1116
01:06:45.320 --> 01:06:48.079
<v Speaker 2>all financial managers, we're political managers. We know how to

1117
01:06:48.119 --> 01:06:51.039
<v Speaker 2>run the world. That's why we all have opinions and Facebook,

1118
01:06:51.280 --> 01:06:52.840
<v Speaker 2>I mean we all know how to run the world.

1119
01:06:53.320 --> 01:06:56.599
<v Speaker 2>And Christians have opinions. I mean priests now are they're

1120
01:06:56.639 --> 01:07:00.079
<v Speaker 2>receiving people coming to the church to inquire who You

1121
01:07:00.199 --> 01:07:03.400
<v Speaker 2>already have opinions about orthodoxy and I'm thinking you know,

1122
01:07:05.760 --> 01:07:10.800
<v Speaker 2>the word heresy in Greek basically means opinionism. If you

1123
01:07:10.880 --> 01:07:13.920
<v Speaker 2>have opinions, you need to get rid of them. But anyway,

1124
01:07:14.039 --> 01:07:17.280
<v Speaker 2>renounce having opinions you when I have faith, not opinions,

1125
01:07:17.440 --> 01:07:21.199
<v Speaker 2>but anyway, we want to run things. One of the

1126
01:07:21.239 --> 01:07:23.360
<v Speaker 2>things I learned from Stanley Hower was a duke and

1127
01:07:23.360 --> 01:07:28.119
<v Speaker 2>I'm eternally grateful for him. He said that in the

1128
01:07:28.159 --> 01:07:33.199
<v Speaker 2>death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, history has come to

1129
01:07:33.239 --> 01:07:35.599
<v Speaker 2>an end. That is the end of history, that is

1130
01:07:35.639 --> 01:07:39.599
<v Speaker 2>its fulfillment, the death and resurrection of Christ. History is fulfilled.

1131
01:07:40.000 --> 01:07:44.400
<v Speaker 2>And because in Christ, in Christ Paska, history is fulfilled.

1132
01:07:44.719 --> 01:07:48.599
<v Speaker 2>Christians have nothing better to do in this life than

1133
01:07:48.639 --> 01:07:52.840
<v Speaker 2>to have children and tell them about Jesus. I mean,

1134
01:07:52.880 --> 01:07:57.159
<v Speaker 2>that's just radical, but it's also radically true. We have

1135
01:07:57.239 --> 01:07:59.199
<v Speaker 2>nothing better to do than to have children and tell

1136
01:07:59.199 --> 01:08:01.880
<v Speaker 2>them about Jesus, and then have children in turn tell

1137
01:08:01.960 --> 01:08:04.039
<v Speaker 2>us about Jesus because they learned so much from you.

1138
01:08:04.800 --> 01:08:05.519
<v Speaker 2>It's so funny.

1139
01:08:05.880 --> 01:08:07.679
<v Speaker 1>And to live in communion with them. I mean, that's

1140
01:08:07.679 --> 01:08:10.360
<v Speaker 1>that's that's I mean, you talk about theosis. That's that's

1141
01:08:10.519 --> 01:08:13.760
<v Speaker 1>that's the big difference. The main thing is union with

1142
01:08:13.840 --> 01:08:17.319
<v Speaker 1>God and it's not escapism. It's and and that's why

1143
01:08:17.479 --> 01:08:21.199
<v Speaker 1>salvation is such an important topic, because you can get

1144
01:08:21.239 --> 01:08:23.279
<v Speaker 1>it so wrong and it can drive you in the

1145
01:08:23.319 --> 01:08:26.800
<v Speaker 1>wrong direction that you get you think salvation is this

1146
01:08:26.880 --> 01:08:30.079
<v Speaker 1>punctiliar thing that happens in a moment, and then you're

1147
01:08:30.119 --> 01:08:33.119
<v Speaker 1>just waiting for the real thing to begin. The real

1148
01:08:33.159 --> 01:08:36.279
<v Speaker 1>thing is here and now, and salvation is a process

1149
01:08:36.319 --> 01:08:38.600
<v Speaker 1>that we are experiencing. Heaven is right now. I mean

1150
01:08:38.640 --> 01:08:42.239
<v Speaker 1>you talk about that heaven if God is everywhere present

1151
01:08:42.279 --> 01:08:44.520
<v Speaker 1>in all things. Heaven is here, is.

1152
01:08:45.039 --> 01:08:48.119
<v Speaker 2>Now when we when we are in the Divine liturgy,

1153
01:08:48.640 --> 01:08:51.840
<v Speaker 2>the priest actually refers to the Second Coming. In the

1154
01:08:51.840 --> 01:08:55.239
<v Speaker 2>past tense, we thank God, we listened with a bunch

1155
01:08:55.279 --> 01:08:58.439
<v Speaker 2>of other things that happened. In past tense. It's all present,

1156
01:08:59.119 --> 01:09:02.000
<v Speaker 2>it is present. I'm just reading this morning in Philippians

1157
01:09:02.039 --> 01:09:05.239
<v Speaker 2>where Paul's I'm at rejoice always or in the third chapter,

1158
01:09:05.359 --> 01:09:08.239
<v Speaker 2>and he says it was the translation I was reading.

1159
01:09:08.279 --> 01:09:11.880
<v Speaker 2>It says the Lord is at hand, and in Greek

1160
01:09:11.960 --> 01:09:15.800
<v Speaker 2>it's us it is the Lord is near or even present.

1161
01:09:16.439 --> 01:09:18.439
<v Speaker 2>It's like all of these things are true because God

1162
01:09:18.600 --> 01:09:23.000
<v Speaker 2>is here. And I think over the years, especially Protestant years,

1163
01:09:23.039 --> 01:09:27.199
<v Speaker 2>I read that as the Second Coming is soon, therefore

1164
01:09:27.199 --> 01:09:30.079
<v Speaker 2>do these things, and Paul means the Lord is present,

1165
01:09:30.479 --> 01:09:35.000
<v Speaker 2>therefore can rejoice, give thanks always for all things. But

1166
01:09:35.039 --> 01:09:37.560
<v Speaker 2>then there's people who if you're not worried about politics

1167
01:09:38.159 --> 01:09:40.319
<v Speaker 2>and you don't care about the world, and I'm thinking,

1168
01:09:41.279 --> 01:09:44.920
<v Speaker 2>that's not how you care about the world. You know,

1169
01:09:45.039 --> 01:09:48.520
<v Speaker 2>you don't even know anything about the world if you

1170
01:09:48.560 --> 01:09:54.720
<v Speaker 2>care about politics, because politics is a very narrow narrative,

1171
01:09:54.960 --> 01:09:59.960
<v Speaker 2>a narrow story told by people who lie for a living.

1172
01:10:00.520 --> 01:10:04.039
<v Speaker 2>They all tell lies, both parties, they all tell lies

1173
01:10:04.039 --> 01:10:05.880
<v Speaker 2>for a living, and they didn't even know that their

1174
01:10:06.000 --> 01:10:09.960
<v Speaker 2>narrative is a lie. It is not the truth. You

1175
01:10:10.000 --> 01:10:12.880
<v Speaker 2>will be in heaven and you'll say something about America

1176
01:10:12.920 --> 01:10:17.199
<v Speaker 2>and someone will go, huh. Saint Paul says, our citizenship,

1177
01:10:17.239 --> 01:10:22.399
<v Speaker 2>our poldia, our politics, our parodia is in the heavens.

1178
01:10:23.279 --> 01:10:26.039
<v Speaker 2>This is our life. Our life is hid with Christ

1179
01:10:26.119 --> 01:10:28.800
<v Speaker 2>in God. It does not yet appear what we shall be,

1180
01:10:29.079 --> 01:10:30.840
<v Speaker 2>but we know that when He appears, we shall be

1181
01:10:31.000 --> 01:10:33.119
<v Speaker 2>like him, for we shall see him like he is.

1182
01:10:33.479 --> 01:10:36.239
<v Speaker 2>Paul says, So this is you know, it is now,

1183
01:10:36.279 --> 01:10:40.039
<v Speaker 2>It is here and now, and you know, I just

1184
01:10:40.079 --> 01:10:45.760
<v Speaker 2>think that we refuse to be crazy enough that in

1185
01:10:45.800 --> 01:10:48.920
<v Speaker 2>my book on Shame, on one of my favorite chapters,

1186
01:10:48.920 --> 01:10:51.319
<v Speaker 2>I write in it as about the Holy Fools, which

1187
01:10:51.560 --> 01:10:53.840
<v Speaker 2>the Orthodox need to learn lots more about. There's some

1188
01:10:53.840 --> 01:10:55.560
<v Speaker 2>books out there on the Holy fools, and they should

1189
01:10:55.560 --> 01:11:00.399
<v Speaker 2>read them. I have described that as probably the primary

1190
01:11:00.479 --> 01:11:02.039
<v Speaker 2>and best image of what it is to be an

1191
01:11:02.079 --> 01:11:05.960
<v Speaker 2>Orthodox Christian is the image of the fool. Christ is

1192
01:11:06.000 --> 01:11:09.119
<v Speaker 2>the fool. To the Greeks, he's foolishness. The Cross seems

1193
01:11:09.159 --> 01:11:12.279
<v Speaker 2>to them to be foolishness. Paul says that we've become

1194
01:11:12.399 --> 01:11:16.000
<v Speaker 2>fools for Christ's sake, and so there's sense in which

1195
01:11:16.520 --> 01:11:19.359
<v Speaker 2>to live in the truth and the fullness of the

1196
01:11:19.439 --> 01:11:22.399
<v Speaker 2>Kingdom of God will look like foolishness to the world.

1197
01:11:23.960 --> 01:11:27.640
<v Speaker 2>You know, the poor man who is joyful and happy

1198
01:11:27.960 --> 01:11:31.079
<v Speaker 2>looks like a fool. Doesn't he know how poor he is?

1199
01:11:31.119 --> 01:11:33.840
<v Speaker 2>And I'm thinking, no, he doesn't, because you don't know

1200
01:11:33.880 --> 01:11:37.600
<v Speaker 2>how rich he is, you know. But will preach the

1201
01:11:37.640 --> 01:11:40.119
<v Speaker 2>Gospel to them enough, and they hear enough of this

1202
01:11:40.159 --> 01:11:42.640
<v Speaker 2>stuff that have given the chance to immigrate to America,

1203
01:11:42.720 --> 01:11:47.079
<v Speaker 2>they will not realizing that they've n dangered their children's salvation.

1204
01:11:47.880 --> 01:11:53.319
<v Speaker 1>Well, once again, reaching into the pool of African content lessons,

1205
01:11:53.960 --> 01:11:57.239
<v Speaker 1>there's this I can't remember the name of the short film,

1206
01:11:57.840 --> 01:12:01.039
<v Speaker 1>but there's these two Africans and they're fishing, and one

1207
01:12:01.039 --> 01:12:03.560
<v Speaker 1>of them is telling the other one all about I

1208
01:12:03.560 --> 01:12:05.840
<v Speaker 1>think it all starts with his watch starts going off

1209
01:12:06.079 --> 01:12:07.920
<v Speaker 1>at a certain time. He says, oh, yeah, every day

1210
01:12:07.960 --> 01:12:10.199
<v Speaker 1>at ten o'clock. It goes off beppep and he starts

1211
01:12:10.199 --> 01:12:13.720
<v Speaker 1>telling about the Western world and the other guy's listening, thinking,

1212
01:12:13.920 --> 01:12:17.239
<v Speaker 1>and he has this idea. And the whole film you

1213
01:12:17.279 --> 01:12:19.600
<v Speaker 1>see him going through these stages of government and they're

1214
01:12:19.640 --> 01:12:22.880
<v Speaker 1>stamping his idea and you're wondering what is it. And

1215
01:12:23.720 --> 01:12:25.680
<v Speaker 1>at the end of the film you realize that his

1216
01:12:25.840 --> 01:12:29.399
<v Speaker 1>big idea, I think it's Binta's big idea. Maybe his

1217
01:12:29.479 --> 01:12:33.319
<v Speaker 1>big idea is to rescue, to adopt somebody from the

1218
01:12:33.399 --> 01:12:37.000
<v Speaker 1>quote unquote first world and save them because everything that

1219
01:12:37.039 --> 01:12:39.960
<v Speaker 1>he was hearing about it was Wow, that's such a

1220
01:12:40.079 --> 01:12:43.760
<v Speaker 1>terrible way to live. And it's so the reason it

1221
01:12:43.760 --> 01:12:45.159
<v Speaker 1>sticks with me, I mean, I think I saw it

1222
01:12:45.199 --> 01:12:48.880
<v Speaker 1>over twenty years ago, is it's radical because we always

1223
01:12:48.880 --> 01:12:51.520
<v Speaker 1>think we I mean, we have this savior complex because

1224
01:12:52.279 --> 01:12:56.079
<v Speaker 1>in our minds, if you're not able to prosper and

1225
01:12:56.439 --> 01:12:59.760
<v Speaker 1>you know, hard work and raising yourself up is not

1226
01:13:00.000 --> 01:13:03.399
<v Speaker 1>currently bad. It's the value that you place on it

1227
01:13:03.920 --> 01:13:08.039
<v Speaker 1>and what it may substitute. It may substitute.

1228
01:13:08.600 --> 01:13:11.920
<v Speaker 2>Community is not bad. Technology is not bad, but you

1229
01:13:11.960 --> 01:13:13.960
<v Speaker 2>have to be careful with it. I mean, I read

1230
01:13:13.960 --> 01:13:16.079
<v Speaker 2>something the other day. It was talking about you know,

1231
01:13:16.279 --> 01:13:19.359
<v Speaker 2>the use of herbicides on plants and stuff, and that

1232
01:13:19.399 --> 01:13:21.479
<v Speaker 2>it's gotten into our food system all at you know,

1233
01:13:21.600 --> 01:13:24.520
<v Speaker 2>the mon santo and all of that stuff. And I

1234
01:13:24.520 --> 01:13:26.359
<v Speaker 2>thought about it, and the guy was saying about this,

1235
01:13:26.840 --> 01:13:29.960
<v Speaker 2>and he said, but I guess this is necessary to

1236
01:13:30.279 --> 01:13:33.319
<v Speaker 2>industrial scale farming, and without it we wouldn't be able

1237
01:13:33.359 --> 01:13:37.239
<v Speaker 2>to feed the world. And I thought, boys, he bought

1238
01:13:37.239 --> 01:13:40.720
<v Speaker 2>it hook line and sinker. Industrial farming is not something

1239
01:13:40.760 --> 01:13:44.119
<v Speaker 2>we have in order to feed the world. We actually

1240
01:13:44.239 --> 01:13:46.399
<v Speaker 2>have a surplus of food and have had a surplace

1241
01:13:46.439 --> 01:13:48.920
<v Speaker 2>of food for the longest time. We're not running out

1242
01:13:48.920 --> 01:13:51.520
<v Speaker 2>of food. We have to throw We throw food away,

1243
01:13:51.640 --> 01:13:53.960
<v Speaker 2>We produce too much food. We pay people not to

1244
01:13:54.000 --> 01:13:54.520
<v Speaker 2>grow food.

1245
01:13:54.720 --> 01:13:56.119
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, subsidized nothing.

1246
01:13:56.199 --> 01:14:01.199
<v Speaker 2>We have industrial farming because we down enforced trust laws,

1247
01:14:01.199 --> 01:14:03.920
<v Speaker 2>because big companies have bought up our farms and put

1248
01:14:03.960 --> 01:14:07.079
<v Speaker 2>farmers out of business. And nowadays, if you grow wheat

1249
01:14:07.159 --> 01:14:09.680
<v Speaker 2>and it's produced, you buy your wheat through you know,

1250
01:14:10.279 --> 01:14:12.560
<v Speaker 2>the company that provides the wheat, and the wheat's been

1251
01:14:12.600 --> 01:14:17.840
<v Speaker 2>genetically modified. It's genetically modified so that it will respond

1252
01:14:18.119 --> 01:14:21.479
<v Speaker 2>or be protected against the use of exlucifate. You know,

1253
01:14:21.600 --> 01:14:24.079
<v Speaker 2>Da Da da, All of this stuff. I mean, it's

1254
01:14:24.279 --> 01:14:26.359
<v Speaker 2>and then and then you can't use the seeds of

1255
01:14:26.359 --> 01:14:27.880
<v Speaker 2>your own wheat to plant the begin you have to

1256
01:14:27.880 --> 01:14:30.159
<v Speaker 2>buy them from the company every year. It's there's all

1257
01:14:30.239 --> 01:14:32.279
<v Speaker 2>kinds of you know, there's a monopoly in all of this.

1258
01:14:32.760 --> 01:14:36.159
<v Speaker 2>But and we're losing farmers and so America we disappear

1259
01:14:36.159 --> 01:14:39.039
<v Speaker 2>as farmers. And so basically we're we've created a structure

1260
01:14:39.079 --> 01:14:41.800
<v Speaker 2>in which it has to be industrial farming because we

1261
01:14:41.920 --> 01:14:45.319
<v Speaker 2>put farmers out of business and we did not protect them,

1262
01:14:45.640 --> 01:14:48.680
<v Speaker 2>and we destroyed a way of life. And that's you know,

1263
01:14:48.760 --> 01:14:52.600
<v Speaker 2>if somebody tells me that's progress, I think, no, that's

1264
01:14:52.680 --> 01:14:57.439
<v Speaker 2>just bad decision making. That's not progress. But people try

1265
01:14:57.520 --> 01:15:00.560
<v Speaker 2>to believe it's progress because they'll even believe that if

1266
01:15:00.600 --> 01:15:04.880
<v Speaker 2>we weren't doing this terrible thing, everybody would starve. And

1267
01:15:04.920 --> 01:15:08.359
<v Speaker 2>that's just no, that's a lie. That's just a lie.

1268
01:15:08.880 --> 01:15:11.600
<v Speaker 2>And there's a lot of other lies throughout our modern world.

1269
01:15:11.840 --> 01:15:15.399
<v Speaker 2>Technology is useful and we should use it, but it's

1270
01:15:15.439 --> 01:15:18.720
<v Speaker 2>not what we say it is. What modernity says about

1271
01:15:18.760 --> 01:15:22.880
<v Speaker 2>it is not true. Modernity's progress is making us slaves

1272
01:15:22.920 --> 01:15:23.720
<v Speaker 2>of the machine.

1273
01:15:24.279 --> 01:15:27.279
<v Speaker 1>Well, I'm a one string banjo. At least on this

1274
01:15:27.319 --> 01:15:29.680
<v Speaker 1>podcast and everything comes back to reality. I mean, you

1275
01:15:29.720 --> 01:15:33.800
<v Speaker 1>talk about you know it exists, but you can stray

1276
01:15:33.840 --> 01:15:36.800
<v Speaker 1>from it. And like I said, progress can be a

1277
01:15:36.840 --> 01:15:39.680
<v Speaker 1>myth because it's a story you tell about your current

1278
01:15:39.720 --> 01:15:40.439
<v Speaker 1>moment in time.

1279
01:15:40.720 --> 01:15:44.279
<v Speaker 2>Yep. So you have human beings who grow up in

1280
01:15:44.319 --> 01:15:48.279
<v Speaker 2>our culture and don't know where food comes from. Literally

1281
01:15:48.479 --> 01:15:51.840
<v Speaker 2>don't know where food comes from. I know a group

1282
01:15:51.880 --> 01:15:54.359
<v Speaker 2>people they do their own farming and stuff, but they

1283
01:15:54.479 --> 01:15:57.720
<v Speaker 2>have classes for homeschooled kids. They bring them out and

1284
01:15:57.760 --> 01:16:01.520
<v Speaker 2>watch them butcher the chickens and stuff and process them

1285
01:16:01.960 --> 01:16:04.439
<v Speaker 2>so that they can learn where food comes from. Thank God.

1286
01:16:05.199 --> 01:16:08.479
<v Speaker 2>You know, my parents grew up poor on farms and

1287
01:16:08.479 --> 01:16:10.720
<v Speaker 2>they knew where it came from, and they weren't weird

1288
01:16:10.760 --> 01:16:13.520
<v Speaker 2>about food, and they had a deep regard for it

1289
01:16:13.600 --> 01:16:14.920
<v Speaker 2>and to care for it.

1290
01:16:14.920 --> 01:16:16.640
<v Speaker 1>It's funny you brought that up, because as soon as

1291
01:16:16.680 --> 01:16:20.159
<v Speaker 1>you said that, I thought. I used to work in

1292
01:16:20.239 --> 01:16:23.640
<v Speaker 1>other countries, and at one point I was working with

1293
01:16:24.159 --> 01:16:27.119
<v Speaker 1>young Americans who were in I think was Nicaragua, and

1294
01:16:27.159 --> 01:16:28.840
<v Speaker 1>I did the same thing. I said, Oh, if you

1295
01:16:28.880 --> 01:16:30.680
<v Speaker 1>want to eat meat, you should see how it's butchered.

1296
01:16:30.720 --> 01:16:32.920
<v Speaker 1>You here where I think it was a lamb. We

1297
01:16:33.039 --> 01:16:35.399
<v Speaker 1>took a lamb and slaughtered it and you know, and

1298
01:16:35.439 --> 01:16:39.239
<v Speaker 1>then ate it. And I thought that was revolutionary. But

1299
01:16:40.000 --> 01:16:43.600
<v Speaker 1>how often have we seen our food sources period outside

1300
01:16:43.640 --> 01:16:45.840
<v Speaker 1>of like I mean, going blueberry picking or something.

1301
01:16:45.960 --> 01:16:48.439
<v Speaker 2>Think of what you just said. You'd describe something that

1302
01:16:48.560 --> 01:16:51.520
<v Speaker 2>human beings have done since the gardener. However, you want

1303
01:16:51.560 --> 01:16:55.399
<v Speaker 2>to tell that story that we've always done and now

1304
01:16:55.680 --> 01:17:01.119
<v Speaker 2>it's revolutionary to do it. What's revel lutionary is to

1305
01:17:01.199 --> 01:17:05.399
<v Speaker 2>be human, so and that to be human is reality.

1306
01:17:05.720 --> 01:17:08.520
<v Speaker 2>To have reality, we should you know, we should hold

1307
01:17:08.560 --> 01:17:12.000
<v Speaker 2>teachers in high regard, and they should teach something that

1308
01:17:12.159 --> 01:17:16.119
<v Speaker 2>is worthy of high regard. We should hold farmers and

1309
01:17:16.279 --> 01:17:19.359
<v Speaker 2>high regard, and they should grow things that are worthy

1310
01:17:19.760 --> 01:17:22.800
<v Speaker 2>of high regard. And we should. My father was an

1311
01:17:22.840 --> 01:17:27.359
<v Speaker 2>auto mechanic. I thought, I thought he hung the world.

1312
01:17:27.720 --> 01:17:31.000
<v Speaker 2>I was amazed at his ability to fix things, and

1313
01:17:31.319 --> 01:17:33.560
<v Speaker 2>he could fix anything. And I love that I had

1314
01:17:33.600 --> 01:17:36.319
<v Speaker 2>of it. So people talk to me about technology, I think, oh,

1315
01:17:36.680 --> 01:17:39.239
<v Speaker 2>I get weepy. When I'm standing around a garage and

1316
01:17:39.279 --> 01:17:42.439
<v Speaker 2>I smell the fumes, I get weepy because it reminds

1317
01:17:42.479 --> 01:17:44.760
<v Speaker 2>me of my childhood and my grandfather and my dad

1318
01:17:44.800 --> 01:17:47.359
<v Speaker 2>and my uncle all these men who worked in their

1319
01:17:47.399 --> 01:17:49.960
<v Speaker 2>hands were dirty. I love it, you know, I work

1320
01:17:50.000 --> 01:17:52.600
<v Speaker 2>on things myself. That's it's one of my happy places.

1321
01:17:52.720 --> 01:17:53.399
<v Speaker 2>Same is true.

1322
01:17:53.439 --> 01:17:55.319
<v Speaker 1>It's part of being embodied.

1323
01:17:55.119 --> 01:17:58.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah it is. And so have a body keep the commandments,

1324
01:17:58.239 --> 01:18:00.880
<v Speaker 2>do good things, do the next a good thing, do

1325
01:18:00.960 --> 01:18:04.319
<v Speaker 2>small things, and you know, and I would add to

1326
01:18:04.359 --> 01:18:06.520
<v Speaker 2>it your admonition, you know, get real.

1327
01:18:07.000 --> 01:18:11.039
<v Speaker 1>You know, well this is going to sound paradoxical, but

1328
01:18:11.159 --> 01:18:15.159
<v Speaker 1>how of both literalism and abstraction become enemies of a

1329
01:18:15.159 --> 01:18:16.600
<v Speaker 1>proper understanding of reality.

1330
01:18:19.760 --> 01:18:24.279
<v Speaker 2>Literalism is oftentimes just not is an ideology that's just

1331
01:18:24.439 --> 01:18:26.600
<v Speaker 2>refusing to be analyzed for what it is. I mean,

1332
01:18:26.680 --> 01:18:29.640
<v Speaker 2>like say, biblical literalism. I mean, yeah, there's some things

1333
01:18:29.640 --> 01:18:31.720
<v Speaker 2>in the Bible that are very literal accounts, and some

1334
01:18:31.800 --> 01:18:34.039
<v Speaker 2>things in the Bible that are very rich in imagery

1335
01:18:34.119 --> 01:18:37.640
<v Speaker 2>and various things that way, And for the Orthodox Christian

1336
01:18:37.720 --> 01:18:39.520
<v Speaker 2>we read the Bible the way the Church reads it.

1337
01:18:39.560 --> 01:18:42.159
<v Speaker 2>That's the right way to read it. And primarily that's

1338
01:18:42.159 --> 01:18:44.760
<v Speaker 2>to read it as the Liturgy teaches us to read it.

1339
01:18:44.880 --> 01:18:48.039
<v Speaker 2>That's how we read it. These are scriptures. Protestantism was

1340
01:18:48.039 --> 01:18:51.399
<v Speaker 2>a rebellion against the Church and they needed for them,

1341
01:18:51.439 --> 01:18:53.439
<v Speaker 2>that was the Catholic Church. But it wasn't really just

1342
01:18:53.479 --> 01:18:56.399
<v Speaker 2>the Catholic Church. They rebelled against the Church, and there

1343
01:18:56.520 --> 01:19:01.119
<v Speaker 2>wasn't one Protestantism. There were many Protestantisms. There wasn't a

1344
01:19:01.159 --> 01:19:04.119
<v Speaker 2>single Protestant church. There were many from the beginning, and

1345
01:19:04.159 --> 01:19:07.680
<v Speaker 2>they weren't even in communion with each other. They didn't

1346
01:19:07.680 --> 01:19:11.159
<v Speaker 2>even recognize each other's ministers. That's from the beginning. So

1347
01:19:11.199 --> 01:19:13.800
<v Speaker 2>Protestantism was a real was interesting that way, but they

1348
01:19:13.840 --> 01:19:16.000
<v Speaker 2>had no doctor. The Creed declares, I believe in one

1349
01:19:16.000 --> 01:19:18.600
<v Speaker 2>holy Catholic habit select Church. They denied the Creed from

1350
01:19:18.600 --> 01:19:22.760
<v Speaker 2>the beginning, or it turned it into this imaginary, invisible church.

1351
01:19:23.000 --> 01:19:26.039
<v Speaker 2>Everybody that confesses Jesus's Lord is part of the invisible church,

1352
01:19:26.119 --> 01:19:27.520
<v Speaker 2>and that's so they don't have to deal with the

1353
01:19:27.560 --> 01:19:30.319
<v Speaker 2>problems of a visible church. It's kind of like having

1354
01:19:30.359 --> 01:19:34.279
<v Speaker 2>an invisible marriage. I want a visible wife, you know,

1355
01:19:34.479 --> 01:19:38.520
<v Speaker 2>I want a very visible wife. Literalism distorts you from

1356
01:19:38.840 --> 01:19:42.960
<v Speaker 2>the fullness of reality. It reduces reality to a kind

1357
01:19:42.960 --> 01:19:50.560
<v Speaker 2>of formulaic treatment of things. Sat anomalism, Yeah, piss trying

1358
01:19:50.600 --> 01:19:53.000
<v Speaker 2>to remember which one piesiusts or perfurious one of the

1359
01:19:53.079 --> 01:19:56.359
<v Speaker 2>other of them said, to be a Christian, one must

1360
01:19:56.359 --> 01:20:00.479
<v Speaker 2>first become a poet, or fieus or furious, Yes, become

1361
01:20:00.520 --> 01:20:05.640
<v Speaker 2>a poet. And there's so much there. Man, it's the heart.

1362
01:20:05.640 --> 01:20:08.439
<v Speaker 2>He's really talking about the heart, so that we see

1363
01:20:08.439 --> 01:20:09.319
<v Speaker 2>things with the heart, and.

1364
01:20:09.359 --> 01:20:14.600
<v Speaker 1>So primary organizvision is not the eyes. It's the heart.

1365
01:20:15.039 --> 01:20:19.199
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And you know, and the eye is the light

1366
01:20:19.239 --> 01:20:21.079
<v Speaker 2>of the body, if you will. The eyes they have

1367
01:20:21.199 --> 01:20:23.520
<v Speaker 2>this role, but they have to be governed by the

1368
01:20:23.560 --> 01:20:26.119
<v Speaker 2>heart in order to see rightly. If you look at

1369
01:20:26.119 --> 01:20:30.079
<v Speaker 2>an enemy, you don't see him rightly. It's your anger

1370
01:20:30.119 --> 01:20:33.760
<v Speaker 2>and your hatred that govern what you see. I guess

1371
01:20:33.880 --> 01:20:36.359
<v Speaker 2>one of the questions is how often do we look

1372
01:20:36.399 --> 01:20:39.319
<v Speaker 2>at the world and weep. We don't weep enough. We

1373
01:20:39.439 --> 01:20:41.800
<v Speaker 2>think so much we can't weep. And you know, and

1374
01:20:41.840 --> 01:20:45.319
<v Speaker 2>this is true particularly true in men and our culture,

1375
01:20:45.439 --> 01:20:48.159
<v Speaker 2>but it's probably increasingly true of women as well. But

1376
01:20:48.279 --> 01:20:50.239
<v Speaker 2>we need to weep. We need to learn to weep.

1377
01:20:50.279 --> 01:20:52.680
<v Speaker 2>I've been working lately. It's kind of weird that when

1378
01:20:52.720 --> 01:20:55.600
<v Speaker 2>something I feel something bringing tears to my eyes, like

1379
01:20:55.720 --> 01:20:59.479
<v Speaker 2>in the service, I've actually begun to lean into it.

1380
01:21:00.640 --> 01:21:05.680
<v Speaker 2>I mean two actually lean into it and sometimes I'm boohooing.

1381
01:21:05.680 --> 01:21:11.359
<v Speaker 2>I'm standing there just shaking as I cry because I'm

1382
01:21:11.399 --> 01:21:15.039
<v Speaker 2>trying to cry, and I don't know how Normally, you know,

1383
01:21:15.199 --> 01:21:16.960
<v Speaker 2>you choke back the tears. And I've done it so

1384
01:21:17.039 --> 01:21:18.880
<v Speaker 2>long I'm english, you know.

1385
01:21:21.279 --> 01:21:24.880
<v Speaker 1>I had Martin Shaw on this podcast and I thought,

1386
01:21:25.039 --> 01:21:27.439
<v Speaker 1>I said, you love a good cry, and I told

1387
01:21:27.479 --> 01:21:30.560
<v Speaker 1>them a story about how I find myself all the time.

1388
01:21:30.600 --> 01:21:32.880
<v Speaker 1>It's the strangest thing. And I joked, maybe it's the

1389
01:21:32.920 --> 01:21:36.720
<v Speaker 1>fluorescent lights or something, But in the grocery store, I'll

1390
01:21:36.880 --> 01:21:40.399
<v Speaker 1>just start not not crocodile tears, but I'll start crying.

1391
01:21:40.800 --> 01:21:41.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

1392
01:21:41.079 --> 01:21:43.640
<v Speaker 1>And I don't know if it's because the grocery store

1393
01:21:43.840 --> 01:21:46.279
<v Speaker 1>is such a mundane thing that, you know, it's like

1394
01:21:46.319 --> 01:21:49.159
<v Speaker 1>it's almost like akin to the shower where good ideas come.

1395
01:21:50.159 --> 01:21:52.840
<v Speaker 1>I'm in the shower, just doing this routine thing, and

1396
01:21:52.880 --> 01:21:57.119
<v Speaker 1>I start feeling the weight of existence. And I always

1397
01:21:57.119 --> 01:21:59.760
<v Speaker 1>think about my kids and and that I just get

1398
01:21:59.760 --> 01:22:04.039
<v Speaker 1>overwhelmed with emotion. And I someday, maybe hopefully, I'll center

1399
01:22:04.119 --> 01:22:06.439
<v Speaker 1>in on exactly what it is that's making me feel

1400
01:22:06.439 --> 01:22:09.479
<v Speaker 1>so emotional. But it's almost always in the grocery store

1401
01:22:09.520 --> 01:22:10.800
<v Speaker 1>and it's not the rising prices.

1402
01:22:11.039 --> 01:22:15.000
<v Speaker 2>My father wept a lot. I mean he would weep

1403
01:22:15.079 --> 01:22:17.479
<v Speaker 2>trying to bless the food at table. These are these

1404
01:22:17.560 --> 01:22:21.319
<v Speaker 2>later years, but it's funny. The priest at our church

1405
01:22:21.600 --> 01:22:23.840
<v Speaker 2>where my mom and dad joined, and both my parents

1406
01:22:23.840 --> 01:22:26.279
<v Speaker 2>were buried from the church, he said to me, said,

1407
01:22:26.399 --> 01:22:29.960
<v Speaker 2>feather Stephen, He said, your mother was a mystic and

1408
01:22:30.000 --> 01:22:32.640
<v Speaker 2>your father had the gift of tears. I told him

1409
01:22:32.640 --> 01:22:34.880
<v Speaker 2>that was the kindest thing I'd ever heard anybody say

1410
01:22:34.920 --> 01:22:39.439
<v Speaker 2>about my mother. I just thought she was crazy. He

1411
01:22:39.479 --> 01:22:41.319
<v Speaker 2>said she was a mystic, and I can see that

1412
01:22:41.399 --> 01:22:43.680
<v Speaker 2>she was, and that my dad had the gift of tears.

1413
01:22:43.760 --> 01:22:45.760
<v Speaker 2>He could just weep at the drop of the hat.

1414
01:22:45.840 --> 01:22:50.159
<v Speaker 2>He had an amazingly tender heart. That man was picking

1415
01:22:50.239 --> 01:22:55.159
<v Speaker 2>cotton starting at age four. I mean never had a

1416
01:22:55.159 --> 01:22:55.640
<v Speaker 2>four year.

1417
01:22:55.520 --> 01:22:57.159
<v Speaker 1>Old and I have a hard time met.

1418
01:22:57.640 --> 01:23:00.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but you know, my grandfather was a hard man too,

1419
01:23:01.000 --> 01:23:04.000
<v Speaker 2>But life was hard. It was the I'm talking about

1420
01:23:04.079 --> 01:23:07.159
<v Speaker 2>nineteen twenty eight when he was four years old. This

1421
01:23:07.199 --> 01:23:10.159
<v Speaker 2>is the depression had already begun with the cotton market,

1422
01:23:10.800 --> 01:23:12.960
<v Speaker 2>so you know, he grew up hard. Then there was

1423
01:23:13.000 --> 01:23:17.479
<v Speaker 2>World War Two, and it gets pretty real. It gets

1424
01:23:17.479 --> 01:23:20.479
<v Speaker 2>pretty real. Father wants us.

1425
01:23:20.600 --> 01:23:23.159
<v Speaker 1>I want you to do something, and anybody listening, I

1426
01:23:23.199 --> 01:23:26.399
<v Speaker 1>want to do this. Close your eyes and I want

1427
01:23:26.399 --> 01:23:30.079
<v Speaker 1>you to picture something. I want you to picture who

1428
01:23:30.199 --> 01:23:36.760
<v Speaker 1>you hate. And as you say, and this isn't unique

1429
01:23:36.800 --> 01:23:40.920
<v Speaker 1>to you, but it's important, your work starts there. When

1430
01:23:40.960 --> 01:23:43.560
<v Speaker 1>I read that, you said that you only know God

1431
01:23:43.600 --> 01:23:48.079
<v Speaker 1>to the extent that you love your enemies. That's convicting

1432
01:23:48.600 --> 01:23:50.880
<v Speaker 1>and powerful. And you said, I think it was you.

1433
01:23:50.880 --> 01:23:52.640
<v Speaker 1>You said your work starts there.

1434
01:23:53.079 --> 01:23:56.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeap, and it is. This is directly from Saint Siliwan.

1435
01:23:56.840 --> 01:23:59.039
<v Speaker 2>This sort of my paraphrase of his teaching that we

1436
01:23:59.119 --> 01:24:01.880
<v Speaker 2>only know God do extent that we love our enemy.

1437
01:24:02.000 --> 01:24:04.720
<v Speaker 2>You should love your neighbor as yourselves. And then we ask, oh,

1438
01:24:04.720 --> 01:24:07.479
<v Speaker 2>but who is my neighbor? Well, it includes your enemy.

1439
01:24:07.840 --> 01:24:10.439
<v Speaker 2>And this is very very hard. I will say that

1440
01:24:10.880 --> 01:24:15.199
<v Speaker 2>here's a word, this is from Saint Sophroni that one

1441
01:24:15.199 --> 01:24:17.520
<v Speaker 2>of the ways to pray for your enemies, which is

1442
01:24:17.560 --> 01:24:20.600
<v Speaker 2>a place we begin with. It can sometimes be very

1443
01:24:20.680 --> 01:24:22.560
<v Speaker 2>very hard to pray for them, kind of in the

1444
01:24:22.600 --> 01:24:26.319
<v Speaker 2>present tense. We have so much going on in us emotionally,

1445
01:24:26.720 --> 01:24:30.479
<v Speaker 2>including wanting to protect ourselves. We need healing, forgiveness, and

1446
01:24:30.560 --> 01:24:32.279
<v Speaker 2>so many things that are there. So how do I

1447
01:24:32.279 --> 01:24:34.760
<v Speaker 2>pray for them? One of the ways to pray is

1448
01:24:34.800 --> 01:24:38.079
<v Speaker 2>to start by saying, God, on the day of judgment,

1449
01:24:39.039 --> 01:24:40.880
<v Speaker 2>do not hold this against them.

1450
01:24:41.039 --> 01:24:41.920
<v Speaker 1>On my account.

1451
01:24:44.119 --> 01:24:48.319
<v Speaker 2>It's kind of like a postponement, but's admitting that there's

1452
01:24:48.359 --> 01:24:52.439
<v Speaker 2>an end to this, that on the day of judgment,

1453
01:24:52.880 --> 01:24:56.439
<v Speaker 2>do not hold this against them on my account. Now

1454
01:24:56.920 --> 01:24:59.920
<v Speaker 2>I would add to that, as we stand before the

1455
01:25:00.079 --> 01:25:03.720
<v Speaker 2>dread judgment seat of Christ, we do well to note

1456
01:25:03.840 --> 01:25:07.119
<v Speaker 2>that in the teaching of the Church, the cross is

1457
01:25:07.159 --> 01:25:11.840
<v Speaker 2>the judgment seat of Christ. This becomes very clear is

1458
01:25:11.840 --> 01:25:14.039
<v Speaker 2>if you read through all the text of Holy Week,

1459
01:25:14.439 --> 01:25:18.079
<v Speaker 2>Christ on the Cross, this is the judgment seat. I

1460
01:25:18.119 --> 01:25:23.000
<v Speaker 2>tell people, go before an icon of Christ crucified and

1461
01:25:23.079 --> 01:25:26.199
<v Speaker 2>pray for your enemies there and talk to because Jesus

1462
01:25:26.279 --> 01:25:30.119
<v Speaker 2>at that very point is forgiving his enemies. Father forgive them.

1463
01:25:30.119 --> 01:25:33.239
<v Speaker 2>They don't know what they do. So at that point

1464
01:25:33.279 --> 01:25:36.840
<v Speaker 2>go talk to him. Look at the crucified Jesus, and

1465
01:25:36.880 --> 01:25:38.960
<v Speaker 2>I would say, by the way, you don't know Jesus

1466
01:25:39.479 --> 01:25:42.560
<v Speaker 2>unless you know him crucified. This is Saint Paul. We

1467
01:25:42.640 --> 01:25:46.319
<v Speaker 2>preach Christ crucified. So go stand before the icon of

1468
01:25:46.319 --> 01:25:50.199
<v Speaker 2>the crucified Jesus and talk to him about your enemies.

1469
01:25:51.600 --> 01:25:55.399
<v Speaker 2>You bring your enemy with you in your heart before

1470
01:25:55.479 --> 01:25:59.159
<v Speaker 2>the crucified Jesus and talk to Father Jesus on the

1471
01:25:59.239 --> 01:26:01.880
<v Speaker 2>day of judgment. Do not hold this against him on

1472
01:26:02.000 --> 01:26:06.760
<v Speaker 2>my account. Jesus on the cross says, do you forgive him? Yes, Lord,

1473
01:26:07.000 --> 01:26:09.399
<v Speaker 2>I forgive them. I mean, how else could I know you?

1474
01:26:10.199 --> 01:26:14.000
<v Speaker 2>I want to know you our enemies in some strange way.

1475
01:26:14.520 --> 01:26:16.920
<v Speaker 2>And there is a strange place in our heart where

1476
01:26:16.960 --> 01:26:18.840
<v Speaker 2>we have to go with. Jesus goes to Hell to

1477
01:26:18.840 --> 01:26:22.439
<v Speaker 2>get us out right. And that's the message. That's the

1478
01:26:22.479 --> 01:26:27.359
<v Speaker 2>message of Pasca. You know. He descended into Hell led captivity. Captive.

1479
01:26:27.840 --> 01:26:30.479
<v Speaker 2>You know, he tramples down death by death. So we

1480
01:26:30.560 --> 01:26:33.279
<v Speaker 2>have to go to Hell, which is with my enemy.

1481
01:26:33.279 --> 01:26:37.760
<v Speaker 2>That's where I am. I stand in Hell with my enemy.

1482
01:26:37.800 --> 01:26:40.960
<v Speaker 2>Anger and hatred are gates of Hell, you know. So

1483
01:26:41.039 --> 01:26:43.479
<v Speaker 2>I stand in Hell with my enemy, and to stand

1484
01:26:43.479 --> 01:26:46.880
<v Speaker 2>before the crucified Jesus, who's saying, let's get out of here.

1485
01:26:47.039 --> 01:26:49.560
<v Speaker 2>He takes Adam by their hand, by the hand. Well,

1486
01:26:49.560 --> 01:26:51.359
<v Speaker 2>actually he doesn't take him by the hand, if you

1487
01:26:51.359 --> 01:26:54.960
<v Speaker 2>look at the icon. He takes them by the wrists.

1488
01:26:54.960 --> 01:26:58.359
<v Speaker 2>But you know why he's clinging to them. This is

1489
01:26:58.399 --> 01:27:01.039
<v Speaker 2>not about there clinging to him. This is about him

1490
01:27:01.079 --> 01:27:04.119
<v Speaker 2>clinging to them. Jesus taking us by the wrist and

1491
01:27:04.199 --> 01:27:06.800
<v Speaker 2>dragging us out. I've been wanting to get a bumper

1492
01:27:06.800 --> 01:27:09.399
<v Speaker 2>sticker for my car. My wife won't let me, but

1493
01:27:09.760 --> 01:27:12.760
<v Speaker 2>I was going to get one that says, and I'm

1494
01:27:12.800 --> 01:27:16.800
<v Speaker 2>cleaning this up because this is a you know, but

1495
01:27:17.159 --> 01:27:20.199
<v Speaker 2>I wanted one that said Jesus dragged my sorry soul

1496
01:27:20.279 --> 01:27:22.960
<v Speaker 2>to paradise. She would not let me. Dare get his

1497
01:27:23.039 --> 01:27:25.600
<v Speaker 2>graphic as it would be, but I still think, drag

1498
01:27:25.640 --> 01:27:28.880
<v Speaker 2>my sorry soul to paradise. This is my salvation. It's

1499
01:27:28.880 --> 01:27:33.800
<v Speaker 2>how I entered Orthodoxy. Jesus, you know, make me orthodox,

1500
01:27:34.199 --> 01:27:36.760
<v Speaker 2>Drag me into the church. I want to be there.

1501
01:27:37.119 --> 01:27:39.880
<v Speaker 2>It scares me. It's hard.

1502
01:27:40.319 --> 01:27:45.520
<v Speaker 1>I talked to a local parish priest and he said

1503
01:27:45.560 --> 01:27:48.600
<v Speaker 1>something along the lines of we're called to love our enemies.

1504
01:27:49.800 --> 01:27:52.640
<v Speaker 1>They just make it so hard, to just make it

1505
01:27:52.680 --> 01:27:55.000
<v Speaker 1>so hard, or I don't even think said enemies. We're

1506
01:27:55.000 --> 01:27:56.960
<v Speaker 1>called to love one another. I don't think you use

1507
01:27:57.000 --> 01:27:57.600
<v Speaker 1>the word enemy.

1508
01:27:58.000 --> 01:27:59.880
<v Speaker 2>Well, I would even say, I would warn like say,

1509
01:28:00.119 --> 01:28:03.920
<v Speaker 2>in modern politics, modern politics, it's all about hating somebody,

1510
01:28:04.319 --> 01:28:06.079
<v Speaker 2>and if you'd like, if you have a party that

1511
01:28:06.119 --> 01:28:08.680
<v Speaker 2>you like, you hate the other party, And that just

1512
01:28:08.720 --> 01:28:11.560
<v Speaker 2>tells you this is not driven that. This has nothing

1513
01:28:11.600 --> 01:28:14.039
<v Speaker 2>to do with the Holy Spirit. Nothing to do with

1514
01:28:14.039 --> 01:28:17.479
<v Speaker 2>the Holy Spirit. This is not of God. Whatever it is,

1515
01:28:17.640 --> 01:28:20.039
<v Speaker 2>go vote, hold your nose and vote, do something whatever

1516
01:28:20.119 --> 01:28:23.600
<v Speaker 2>like that. But this other stuff, you are feeding it

1517
01:28:23.720 --> 01:28:26.920
<v Speaker 2>with demonic thoughts. Do not feed it with demonic thoughts.

1518
01:28:27.319 --> 01:28:28.920
<v Speaker 2>This is not we're commanded to do.

1519
01:28:29.039 --> 01:28:32.520
<v Speaker 1>It's really funny that you bring that up, because I've

1520
01:28:32.520 --> 01:28:35.319
<v Speaker 1>got a routine now. I go for a run every

1521
01:28:35.359 --> 01:28:37.239
<v Speaker 1>time before I do a podcast, and I started to

1522
01:28:37.239 --> 01:28:38.720
<v Speaker 1>think about some of the things I wanted to talk

1523
01:28:38.760 --> 01:28:42.319
<v Speaker 1>to you about, and that test about who do you hate?

1524
01:28:42.479 --> 01:28:44.319
<v Speaker 1>I knew I wanted to go through that with you,

1525
01:28:44.479 --> 01:28:48.479
<v Speaker 1>and I almost put the adjoiner. But this can't be

1526
01:28:49.039 --> 01:28:52.319
<v Speaker 1>a political rival. This has to be somebody in your

1527
01:28:52.560 --> 01:28:57.600
<v Speaker 1>real local life. But then I started to think, well,

1528
01:28:57.880 --> 01:29:00.800
<v Speaker 1>they exist too, They're part of reality. You might not

1529
01:29:00.920 --> 01:29:03.520
<v Speaker 1>have face to face conversations with them, but they may

1530
01:29:03.600 --> 01:29:06.880
<v Speaker 1>take up more real estate than your real face to

1531
01:29:06.920 --> 01:29:10.920
<v Speaker 1>face quote unquote enemies, and it's so much harder. I'm

1532
01:29:10.920 --> 01:29:14.079
<v Speaker 1>sure we could all imagine somebody politically that we can't stand,

1533
01:29:14.239 --> 01:29:18.239
<v Speaker 1>that we hate. We say, we say the work begins,

1534
01:29:18.880 --> 01:29:21.439
<v Speaker 1>we say so, and so is Hitler. As if that

1535
01:29:21.760 --> 01:29:25.600
<v Speaker 1>absolved us from loving them. Imago day exists in everybody,

1536
01:29:26.119 --> 01:29:29.560
<v Speaker 1>and that's what that's what's so hard about it. And

1537
01:29:29.640 --> 01:29:31.600
<v Speaker 1>I learned, you know, there was somebody who was really

1538
01:29:31.640 --> 01:29:35.960
<v Speaker 1>antagonistic to my family. And there was one point where

1539
01:29:36.000 --> 01:29:39.520
<v Speaker 1>I sat there and I thought, man, God, just kill him.

1540
01:29:39.800 --> 01:29:43.279
<v Speaker 1>And then I thought, how that's such a terrible thought

1541
01:29:44.520 --> 01:29:46.640
<v Speaker 1>I and I started to reconcile it in my mind. No,

1542
01:29:47.000 --> 01:29:49.159
<v Speaker 1>I want that problem to go away, and death is

1543
01:29:49.199 --> 01:29:52.039
<v Speaker 1>a solution in my mind. Just it would be better

1544
01:29:52.119 --> 01:29:55.119
<v Speaker 1>if he just wasn't here, because he's like an ankle binder.

1545
01:29:55.199 --> 01:30:00.000
<v Speaker 1>He won't stop attacking us. And I thought, no, don't

1546
01:30:00.119 --> 01:30:04.239
<v Speaker 1>kill him, make him have a soul to pull moment

1547
01:30:04.399 --> 01:30:09.640
<v Speaker 1>and then use him. And that's that's a reorientation. That's

1548
01:30:09.680 --> 01:30:12.159
<v Speaker 1>loving your enemies. But it's hard. It's hard, like you said,

1549
01:30:12.159 --> 01:30:14.840
<v Speaker 1>because we can have this whole. Oh, I'll go and

1550
01:30:14.920 --> 01:30:16.840
<v Speaker 1>I'll tell them that I love them and I want

1551
01:30:16.840 --> 01:30:20.199
<v Speaker 1>what's best for them, and they'll tell me to kick rocks. Yeah,

1552
01:30:20.239 --> 01:30:22.760
<v Speaker 1>and then what they're making it. It's not my fault.

1553
01:30:22.760 --> 01:30:24.399
<v Speaker 1>I want to love them, they're the ones. It's the

1554
01:30:24.439 --> 01:30:27.720
<v Speaker 1>problem is them. No, it's just this constant reorientation.

1555
01:30:28.640 --> 01:30:30.920
<v Speaker 2>If it's not hard for you to love your enemies,

1556
01:30:31.399 --> 01:30:34.399
<v Speaker 2>then you're in you're somehow another out of touch with

1557
01:30:34.439 --> 01:30:38.720
<v Speaker 2>your heart. It's it's in that actual, really hard to

1558
01:30:38.800 --> 01:30:42.399
<v Speaker 2>do place. It's in that really in the really really

1559
01:30:42.439 --> 01:30:45.600
<v Speaker 2>hard to do place that you have to stand before

1560
01:30:45.880 --> 01:30:49.039
<v Speaker 2>the crucified Jesus. Go stand in that really awful place.

1561
01:30:49.319 --> 01:30:52.039
<v Speaker 2>It's so awful, is distracting, and you can even say, Jesus,

1562
01:30:52.079 --> 01:30:53.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm having a real hard time seeing you here because

1563
01:30:53.920 --> 01:30:56.920
<v Speaker 2>all I can see is this enemy. But go stand

1564
01:30:56.960 --> 01:30:59.199
<v Speaker 2>in that place. But basically, if you stand in that place,

1565
01:30:59.479 --> 01:31:02.760
<v Speaker 2>Jesus and come into that place and the three of

1566
01:31:02.760 --> 01:31:05.880
<v Speaker 2>you Jesus, you know you'll only work it out if

1567
01:31:05.920 --> 01:31:08.479
<v Speaker 2>you let Jesus into that place. So you got to

1568
01:31:08.600 --> 01:31:14.039
<v Speaker 2>just go there. Just go there. And it's interesting my

1569
01:31:14.119 --> 01:31:17.079
<v Speaker 2>older brother's first time in a liturgy, the priest turned

1570
01:31:17.119 --> 01:31:20.720
<v Speaker 2>to the congregation and out loud. It's a very small church,

1571
01:31:20.800 --> 01:31:25.359
<v Speaker 2>little store, little storefront, bowed to us and said, forgive

1572
01:31:25.399 --> 01:31:28.560
<v Speaker 2>me my brothers and sisters, my brothers started weeping like

1573
01:31:28.640 --> 01:31:31.079
<v Speaker 2>he was my dad or something as and he just said,

1574
01:31:31.600 --> 01:31:34.600
<v Speaker 2>I've never seen a priest do anything like that, And

1575
01:31:34.640 --> 01:31:36.479
<v Speaker 2>I thought, yeah, they do it all the time here.

1576
01:31:37.079 --> 01:31:40.479
<v Speaker 2>It's part of the liturgy. But how important is it?

1577
01:31:40.800 --> 01:31:43.399
<v Speaker 2>Forgiveness is radical? Forgiveness?

1578
01:31:43.800 --> 01:31:44.520
<v Speaker 1>That's radical?

1579
01:31:44.760 --> 01:31:48.720
<v Speaker 2>Oh? It is union union with God through your enemy.

1580
01:31:48.840 --> 01:31:52.720
<v Speaker 1>Wow, that's what we're made for. What happens to a

1581
01:31:52.760 --> 01:31:54.359
<v Speaker 1>culture that can't name what it sees?

1582
01:31:56.800 --> 01:32:02.560
<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, things that are not real eventually fall apart,

1583
01:32:03.279 --> 01:32:07.159
<v Speaker 2>just as simple as that, because reality is reality, that

1584
01:32:07.199 --> 01:32:11.520
<v Speaker 2>which is not reality eventually dissipates. I mean, how did

1585
01:32:11.520 --> 01:32:16.279
<v Speaker 2>the Soviet Union fall? It wasn't the CIA, It wasn't

1586
01:32:16.359 --> 01:32:19.760
<v Speaker 2>Ronald Reagan, it wasn't Poke John Paul the Second, It

1587
01:32:19.800 --> 01:32:22.199
<v Speaker 2>wasn't all of these things people. Actually, no one knows

1588
01:32:22.199 --> 01:32:25.159
<v Speaker 2>how it fell. I mean, it kind of just fell

1589
01:32:25.199 --> 01:32:27.279
<v Speaker 2>in some ways. It felt of it so its own

1590
01:32:27.720 --> 01:32:31.560
<v Speaker 2>unreal weight. I would even suggest that, as terrible as

1591
01:32:31.600 --> 01:32:36.000
<v Speaker 2>it is at the present time, the Western civilization is

1592
01:32:36.079 --> 01:32:41.199
<v Speaker 2>collapsing of its own weight and of its own delusions.

1593
01:32:41.319 --> 01:32:44.319
<v Speaker 2>I don't know what that means. It can mean something

1594
01:32:45.119 --> 01:32:48.720
<v Speaker 2>really bad, and even worse, it can mean something that

1595
01:32:48.800 --> 01:32:51.680
<v Speaker 2>allows something better. I mean, if you just don't know,

1596
01:32:51.920 --> 01:32:54.039
<v Speaker 2>I tell people in our life in the church is

1597
01:32:54.039 --> 01:32:57.079
<v Speaker 2>to live the church, to be the church, and whatever happens,

1598
01:32:57.079 --> 01:33:00.000
<v Speaker 2>it's not the first time we've lived through. Every culture

1599
01:33:00.119 --> 01:33:03.600
<v Speaker 2>we have ever been in has collapsed, So this is

1600
01:33:03.920 --> 01:33:04.880
<v Speaker 2>We've always.

1601
01:33:04.560 --> 01:33:07.399
<v Speaker 1>Times like these. It's important to remember that there have

1602
01:33:07.439 --> 01:33:08.560
<v Speaker 1>always been times like these.

1603
01:33:08.920 --> 01:33:11.680
<v Speaker 2>And during the pandemic I read a couple of books.

1604
01:33:12.039 --> 01:33:15.560
<v Speaker 2>Was on the fourteenth century, which was a time of

1605
01:33:15.600 --> 01:33:17.760
<v Speaker 2>the Black Death and some other terrible things, and the

1606
01:33:17.800 --> 01:33:19.720
<v Speaker 2>other one was on the sixth century, which also was

1607
01:33:19.720 --> 01:33:22.680
<v Speaker 2>a black death century and terrible things. I read them

1608
01:33:22.760 --> 01:33:25.399
<v Speaker 2>just to kind of remind myself that as bad as

1609
01:33:25.399 --> 01:33:28.039
<v Speaker 2>this might be, it ain't nothing. It ain't nothing.

1610
01:33:28.479 --> 01:33:31.640
<v Speaker 1>You know, where are we most eager to look away

1611
01:33:31.640 --> 01:33:35.520
<v Speaker 1>from reality mirror?

1612
01:33:38.399 --> 01:33:44.079
<v Speaker 2>I you know, I would say, I mean, our fantasies

1613
01:33:44.159 --> 01:33:48.960
<v Speaker 2>can be some of those things, but probably it very

1614
01:33:49.039 --> 01:33:52.239
<v Speaker 2>much goes around the dynamic of shame, which is a

1615
01:33:52.319 --> 01:33:55.600
<v Speaker 2>huge subject worthy of another podcast if you want to

1616
01:33:55.600 --> 01:34:00.840
<v Speaker 2>do one sometime. Yeah, don't beget they have time today.

1617
01:34:00.840 --> 01:34:04.840
<v Speaker 2>But we according to the psychologist's shame is the unbearable

1618
01:34:04.960 --> 01:34:09.640
<v Speaker 2>emotion we morph shame when we first feel it, we

1619
01:34:09.680 --> 01:34:13.560
<v Speaker 2>morph it almost instantly, either into anger or to sadness,

1620
01:34:13.600 --> 01:34:17.000
<v Speaker 2>and so we can't bear it, and so it keeps

1621
01:34:17.079 --> 01:34:19.640
<v Speaker 2>us from seeing things as they are. Saint SOPHRONI taught

1622
01:34:19.640 --> 01:34:23.000
<v Speaker 2>his disciples to bear a little shame, which is actually

1623
01:34:23.000 --> 01:34:25.760
<v Speaker 2>the very heart of what humility is is the willingness

1624
01:34:25.760 --> 01:34:29.199
<v Speaker 2>to bear a little shame. But that's, as I say,

1625
01:34:29.520 --> 01:34:30.720
<v Speaker 2>a large, large topic.

1626
01:34:30.960 --> 01:34:33.960
<v Speaker 1>Hey, we'll get there right In a world that feels

1627
01:34:33.960 --> 01:34:37.199
<v Speaker 1>increasingly unreal, what feels most real to you.

1628
01:34:40.640 --> 01:34:46.479
<v Speaker 2>My death. I'm an old man. I wake up with

1629
01:34:46.520 --> 01:34:50.399
<v Speaker 2>it every morning. I mean part of being old. I'm

1630
01:34:50.439 --> 01:34:52.479
<v Speaker 2>seventy two, which is, you know, I hope to get

1631
01:34:52.479 --> 01:34:56.800
<v Speaker 2>another fifteen years maybe, But I'm also aware that I'm dying,

1632
01:34:58.640 --> 01:35:00.439
<v Speaker 2>and I'm not afraid of that. One of the the things

1633
01:35:00.439 --> 01:35:03.840
<v Speaker 2>I learned from my hospice years was that you know,

1634
01:35:04.279 --> 01:35:08.279
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to die, and I have a goal of

1635
01:35:08.399 --> 01:35:12.640
<v Speaker 2>dying well. I'm going to die lack a Christian and

1636
01:35:13.359 --> 01:35:16.159
<v Speaker 2>you know that requires it you live well and to

1637
01:35:16.199 --> 01:35:20.359
<v Speaker 2>try to live rightly, and so I you know death.

1638
01:35:20.560 --> 01:35:22.600
<v Speaker 2>You know, I'm also married to a seventy two year

1639
01:35:22.600 --> 01:35:25.399
<v Speaker 2>old woman, and I you know, I'm aware of her death,

1640
01:35:25.520 --> 01:35:28.800
<v Speaker 2>and I don't want it unless it's after mine. So

1641
01:35:29.279 --> 01:35:31.039
<v Speaker 2>I do not want to be a bachelor in this

1642
01:35:31.199 --> 01:35:36.039
<v Speaker 2>life ever. And so but anyway I wouldn't be. I

1643
01:35:36.079 --> 01:35:37.359
<v Speaker 2>would still be a married man.

1644
01:35:38.079 --> 01:35:40.359
<v Speaker 1>Something you said made me think of there was a

1645
01:35:40.399 --> 01:35:44.600
<v Speaker 1>young man who unfortunately died tragically. He was a catechumen

1646
01:35:44.680 --> 01:35:48.880
<v Speaker 1>in our church, and I spoke with his family afterwards,

1647
01:35:49.359 --> 01:35:54.680
<v Speaker 1>and he said, I'm just so thankful that my son

1648
01:35:54.800 --> 01:35:58.760
<v Speaker 1>never outlived his love for the Lord. And when you

1649
01:35:59.039 --> 01:36:01.760
<v Speaker 1>I mean that that's ending, well.

1650
01:36:02.600 --> 01:36:07.279
<v Speaker 2>It is, and you I mean it is. These things

1651
01:36:07.319 --> 01:36:09.960
<v Speaker 2>are in the handle, in the hands of God, you know.

1652
01:36:10.199 --> 01:36:14.359
<v Speaker 2>And I've already, you know, being seventy two, I've already

1653
01:36:14.760 --> 01:36:19.479
<v Speaker 2>I'm beyond warranty. I mean, seventy is all we're given. Yeah,

1654
01:36:19.800 --> 01:36:22.720
<v Speaker 2>three score years and ten and so I'm now in

1655
01:36:22.760 --> 01:36:26.800
<v Speaker 2>my post warranty years. And so these are these are

1656
01:36:26.840 --> 01:36:27.960
<v Speaker 2>the Thanksgiving years.

1657
01:36:28.239 --> 01:36:29.760
<v Speaker 1>They call that house cash.

1658
01:36:29.920 --> 01:36:34.479
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So I'm just fine and it'll be what it is.

1659
01:36:35.239 --> 01:36:37.119
<v Speaker 2>At one point I told my wife, I've already done

1660
01:36:37.159 --> 01:36:41.399
<v Speaker 2>more in my life than I had ever imagined. So

1661
01:36:41.439 --> 01:36:44.039
<v Speaker 2>I you know, but.

1662
01:36:44.039 --> 01:36:48.640
<v Speaker 1>Every moment is precious. It is. My grandfather was dying

1663
01:36:49.600 --> 01:36:52.800
<v Speaker 1>of fibrosis of the lung, and my dad something along

1664
01:36:52.840 --> 01:36:55.479
<v Speaker 1>the lines of don't you just wish that God would

1665
01:36:55.520 --> 01:36:58.319
<v Speaker 1>take you, that you just go home to be with him.

1666
01:36:58.840 --> 01:37:02.000
<v Speaker 1>And he paused, and he at my dad and he said, Hank,

1667
01:37:02.439 --> 01:37:04.159
<v Speaker 1>every moment is precious.

1668
01:37:04.560 --> 01:37:07.680
<v Speaker 2>Yes, Saint Paul says, I make up in my body

1669
01:37:07.720 --> 01:37:10.079
<v Speaker 2>that which is lacking the sufferings of Christ. Now there's

1670
01:37:10.119 --> 01:37:13.439
<v Speaker 2>a verse that Protestants won't even touch. It's in coloutions.

1671
01:37:13.560 --> 01:37:16.880
<v Speaker 2>So I would say in Saint Basil had this clear

1672
01:37:16.920 --> 01:37:20.600
<v Speaker 2>idea too, that even in the sufferings of death, in

1673
01:37:20.680 --> 01:37:24.319
<v Speaker 2>the death throws, there is a mystery taking place with it.

1674
01:37:24.479 --> 01:37:28.279
<v Speaker 2>My dad's dad, my grandfather, died of infasima lung cancer

1675
01:37:29.199 --> 01:37:31.680
<v Speaker 2>and was struggling for breath in his last days, and

1676
01:37:31.720 --> 01:37:34.119
<v Speaker 2>he would go in and out of consciousness, but every

1677
01:37:34.119 --> 01:37:36.800
<v Speaker 2>time he was conscious, he was just praying Lord of Mercy,

1678
01:37:36.960 --> 01:37:41.399
<v Speaker 2>primarily because he meant Lord have mercy. He was, you know,

1679
01:37:41.600 --> 01:37:44.239
<v Speaker 2>a culture Baptist, so he wasn't doing the Jesus prayer

1680
01:37:44.319 --> 01:37:47.039
<v Speaker 2>except the ones that the Holy Spirit gives you. He

1681
01:37:47.079 --> 01:37:49.560
<v Speaker 2>would be Lord of Mercy, and in and out of consciousness,

1682
01:37:49.600 --> 01:37:51.760
<v Speaker 2>Lord of Mercy. And I looked at him and he

1683
01:37:51.760 --> 01:37:53.520
<v Speaker 2>did that for the last couple of days or so.

1684
01:37:54.159 --> 01:37:56.520
<v Speaker 2>And I look back at it and think I wouldn't

1685
01:37:56.560 --> 01:37:59.000
<v Speaker 2>take those two days of prayer away from that man

1686
01:37:59.039 --> 01:38:02.199
<v Speaker 2>for nothing. I mean, he may very well have been

1687
01:38:02.239 --> 01:38:05.520
<v Speaker 2>saving his soul and uniting himself to Christ in a

1688
01:38:05.560 --> 01:38:08.039
<v Speaker 2>way he had been postponing. Why would I take that

1689
01:38:08.079 --> 01:38:08.720
<v Speaker 2>from him?

1690
01:38:09.039 --> 01:38:09.359
<v Speaker 1>Hmm?

1691
01:38:10.039 --> 01:38:12.840
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's only a couple of days of discomfort.

1692
01:38:12.920 --> 01:38:15.640
<v Speaker 2>The problem with the modern world is we're afraid of suffering.

1693
01:38:16.039 --> 01:38:18.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, magic happens.

1694
01:38:19.000 --> 01:38:25.439
<v Speaker 2>We kill people so they won't suffer. That's demonic, Yes

1695
01:38:25.479 --> 01:38:25.840
<v Speaker 2>it is.

1696
01:38:26.239 --> 01:38:29.159
<v Speaker 1>Father. You know you and your book with a prayer

1697
01:38:29.199 --> 01:38:32.800
<v Speaker 1>that I pray dozens of times daily. And when I

1698
01:38:32.800 --> 01:38:34.680
<v Speaker 1>saw you end it that way, I thought, you know,

1699
01:38:34.800 --> 01:38:37.359
<v Speaker 1>once again, more evidence that I love this man. Can

1700
01:38:37.399 --> 01:38:39.720
<v Speaker 1>you pray us out.

1701
01:38:39.159 --> 01:38:41.920
<v Speaker 2>Oh, with glory to God for all things glorious?

1702
01:38:42.000 --> 01:38:45.640
<v Speaker 1>I say, glory to you God and all things and

1703
01:38:45.880 --> 01:38:46.319
<v Speaker 1>all things.

1704
01:38:46.439 --> 01:38:49.920
<v Speaker 2>It's all things, and that is that is to stand

1705
01:38:50.079 --> 01:38:53.479
<v Speaker 2>and embrace reality is to give thanks to Him for

1706
01:38:53.560 --> 01:38:57.119
<v Speaker 2>it his gift. And also reality is to save us,

1707
01:38:57.640 --> 01:39:00.880
<v Speaker 2>and it is saving us for some thing beyond what

1708
01:39:00.960 --> 01:39:05.039
<v Speaker 2>we could possibly imagine. And in fact, if you can

1709
01:39:05.199 --> 01:39:06.880
<v Speaker 2>the more you learn to say glory to God for

1710
01:39:06.920 --> 01:39:10.479
<v Speaker 2>all things, the more you'll see reality for the Kingdom

1711
01:39:10.479 --> 01:39:11.319
<v Speaker 2>of God that it is.

1712
01:39:11.560 --> 01:39:14.319
<v Speaker 1>Man, I can't do better than that.

1713
01:39:14.720 --> 01:39:17.720
<v Speaker 2>God grant us to say glory to God.

1714
01:39:18.119 --> 01:39:20.439
<v Speaker 1>Father. Stephen Freeman, thank you for joining me on a

1715
01:39:20.439 --> 01:39:23.640
<v Speaker 1>commitment to reality. I could literally talk to you for hours,

1716
01:39:23.720 --> 01:39:25.399
<v Speaker 1>so we'll have to do this again to talk about

1717
01:39:25.439 --> 01:39:26.039
<v Speaker 1>Shane did.

1718
01:39:29.279 --> 01:39:30.640
<v Speaker 2>Thank you. Thank you.