Speaker 1: When your old career gives you lemons throwing some ice
mix in some vodka colored A podcast from the Mac
of All Trade Studio in Fairport and driven by Victor
Chrysler Dods. Gee Ram, It's Bilified the Bill Moran Podcast.
Speaker 2: Well, hello and welcome. Thank you for getting your pot on.
Speaker 3: Thanks for telling a friend, and that's how we spread
the word. It's nice to finally catch up with somebody
who we've always been a big fan of. H He
was the police information am I saying this is right,
the police information.
Speaker 2: Director, public information.
Speaker 3: Public information director, see got it wrong for the Monroe
County Shriff's Department, which is a huge undertaking. I can
only imagine the stuff that comes in. And then he
went on, he got promoted. He's deputy been real county deputy, sheriff,
deputy Hurly. And I can't wait to see what other
things you conquer as you go through your career, coming
up on twenty years already.
Speaker 4: I just hit it last week.
Speaker 3: Oh really, do they do anything like you remember like
years ago, if you were at Kodak for so many years,
you got.
Speaker 2: Like maybe a camera.
Speaker 3: I don't even know what they did, maybe the digital
camera that they made but didn't didn't sell.
Speaker 2: You used to get like a watch. You would hear
these guys, Hey, thirty years of the job you got away?
Do they do anything like that? They should?
Speaker 5: My dad got the was it the twenty five year
ring for for being at Kodak kind of And then
they were they said, thanks for everything, but we.
Speaker 4: Don't need you anymore.
Speaker 2: Oh no, yeah, terrible.
Speaker 4: Uh no, we get nothing. We get a pension.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, that's that's good. Right.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I mean I did thirty something years in radio. I
don't think everybody gave shit.
Speaker 2: That's what happens. It's what happens.
Speaker 3: One of the things that is going on in the
news today and it just has been playing in my
mind and I was thought, boy, I got to ask
Deputy Hurley about this, because you know, we see all
the stuff with Savannah Guthrie and her mom and the
stuff that was coming out early were the number of
people that insert themselves into a tragedy for whatever reason.
Speaker 2: And they are.
Speaker 3: Writing letters, some of them insane, some of them making
ransom demands and little jokes and this and that. But
they're actual, I think, physical letters that I don't know
where they're going but came out in some article. I
think it was The Times, and I thought that can't be.
We can all say, oh, it's somebody favorite, and I go,
you know what, I don't think it fucking matters, because
how many times do we see like, you know, elder
being on the lookout for eighty one year old man
went for a drive. We haven't seen him since Sunday,
it's Tuesday. Here's his license plate, here's the car. And
sometimes you'll see that, even on electronic Science or something
to that effect. And I go, how many false leads
do you get, like like like you know their fault,
you can tell this, but why what the.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a good question.
Speaker 5: It's hard to explain an unrational act, but especially something
like this with Savannah Guthrie.
Speaker 4: I mean, she's famous, so this is gonna hit.
Speaker 5: It's gonna hit bigger right all over social media everything,
and that just brings the crazy out.
Speaker 4: Yeah, people just are attracted.
Speaker 5: To it like a moth to the flame for some reason,
and they just you know, we see it too, Like
you said, even with the missing people, you'll get people
who call just to waste time.
Speaker 4: And I don't know if they think it's funny or
what they're doing.
Speaker 5: But yeah, you know, you just got to weed through
those and try to get to the good, credible ones.
Speaker 3: To that end, I'll ask you this twenty years on
the job interacting with the public, and this is gonna
sound sort of maybe odd, but mental health overall? Are
we do you see more the same? Is there anything
in you that goes we got a growing problem that's
sort of the.
Speaker 2: Underbelly of a lot of the stuff that we see.
Speaker 4: I don't know if I would say it's a growing problem.
Speaker 5: Okay, it's a big problem though, Yeah, it is very
large problem.
Speaker 3: Always the same though, That's what I mean over the
twenty years. And I say that because twenty years ago
social media wasn't as impactful and everywhere as it was now.
Facebook may have existed, but I think it was for
college kids, right.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think, you know, I always look at it
as social media has given everybody a voice, and with
the algorithms and everything, now it feels like people just
go down these rabbit holes of you hear what you
want to hear, you're reading what you want to read,
and aha, I was right all along. So you find
these packs of people who encourage each other instead of
someone going, wait, that doesn't make sense, that's crazy.
Speaker 4: You shouldn't think that way. It just feeds it so
that way, I think it's more out of control.
Speaker 2: For sure.
Speaker 3: Well, it's funny you say that because I said yesterday,
I feel like now when you're criticizing and I'll call
it team, and we could say, like, I'm a fan
of the New England Patriots. They got blown out in
the Super Bowl. There were announcers saying they look like
they shouldn't be on the same field as the Seahawks. Right,
we can look at that and go, well, and I'm
going no, no, no. Take that same concept and apply it
to politics. Take that same concept and apply it to
an argument in the home. It becomes this thing where
once you start criticizing my team, you're criticizing me, and
then it becomes like this loaded thing. And I really
do think that that is a byproduct of social media
for exactly what you're saying. I can find my tribe
who thinks like me, likes me, I can block these
other people.
Speaker 2: It gives me.
Speaker 3: Power, and all of a sudden, now I don't know
what we are. It's like what happened to conversation and
trying to understand and be a little bit open minded
and mature.
Speaker 2: And I will say that's part of.
Speaker 3: Being an old guy, like you just start to see
things the humanity versus the individual.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Both of my grandparents one was Republican, one was Democrat,
and they could have a conversation. They disagree on things,
but they also knew when to stop.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Right, the family came first, that we could have a
nice dinner. It wasn't about politics. But you're right, everything now, everything.
Speaker 2: Is so.
Speaker 4: Polarized. Yeah, and everything's political.
Speaker 5: Ye, Like I watch you watch sports to escape the world,
to escape on that, you watch a comedy show, you
watch a movie to get away from all that. But
they're forcing it into everything, and I think that's definitely
not helping people's.
Speaker 3: No, And I think sometimes you're right, because sometimes what
they're going to try to do is give you the
character that represents somebody in your life. And if we
look back, I mean you go to All in the family, right,
we could really laugh at All in the family. And
he had sort of this buffoon and Archie Bunker, who
was this sort of what would be considered today someone
on the right or maybe even a little further on
the right and a bigot and a racist and blah
blah blah. But you could laugh at that and see
the absurdity of it, which some people were really offended by.
They go, we're not dumb, Like these people who think
this way are not dumb. It is what they're saying.
But it was an exaggerated example of somebody. And I
think they try to do that in sitcoms. But you're right,
it's it's it's everywhere to the point where you can't
escape it. You turn on your computer, it's there. You
open something here, everything's a talk show now right, we
go to podcasts, podcasts are niche, and you've got You've
got all these different things. And I do I don't.
I don't think it's good for mental health. I worry
about like my kid. It's it's almost like an addiction
constantly to be on the phone, and I'm so busy
and it's he and I most of the time that
I'm I feel like I'm failing him in a way
by not taking the phone away, you know, but try
taking away from a six to two hundred pound fifteen
year old.
Speaker 2: It's got an attitude.
Speaker 4: I mean you know it's addictive. Yeah, we're all addicted
to dope.
Speaker 2: Mean man.
Speaker 5: The other problem is, you know, people are using that
as a source to learn. Right when we were growing up,
you had to go through the encyclopedia, you had to
look things up and you know, reference books. Right now,
it's like, well, you know, Joe seven thirty two nine
says on Twitter, Yeah, yeah, you know, I saw ten
second video, so this is I'm an expert, right, It's like, right,
you know, people, I.
Speaker 3: Thought, I thought one of the greatest things that I
ever learned from that perspective. And I always thought it
was pretty eye opening because there was some this was
a little more political base, but it was back where
we live in the city.
Speaker 2: Somebody was running for mayor.
Speaker 3: They hadn't They were sort of an unknown at the
time of Lovely Warren who became mayor and uh, she's
running for mayor and somebody they called it a podcast.
It was a bunch of people on a phone through Facebook.
I don't know what the hell it was. And it
was two people who used to live here but they
don't live here anymore, and they're hosting it and they
talked about a problem. There was an incident in the
city where a mother and daughter got into an altercation
and I think it's spilled out into the middle of
the street. And so the police show up and they're
going to arrest the daughter. They have the daughter over
and one of the officers is got her hands behind
her back and he is and these are our black people.
And he winds up the white officer, who was a
veteran I believe, was putting this woman's hands behind her back,
and what you see is him kind of slap her
upside the back of the head. Right, So, okay, so
this is what goes on, and what's being said is
we have I think they were calling it cultural competency.
We didn't have cultural competency in the city. So I
said to somebody, you gotta.
Speaker 2: Get lovely in here.
Speaker 3: And at the time I went to college with somebody.
I will say the person's name. Most people listening will
have no idea. You probably will. And this person did
do some time or embezzlement from a nonprofit Adam McFadden.
And Adam calls me and goes, I got another angle
of that video and you need to see it. And
he sends it to me and he goes, she was
reaching back for either that officer's gun or that officer's balls. Okay,
and he goes, so he did that to get her
under control. There's a black man talking about what he saw. Okay,
just I mean, I only do that for a perspective
because it was so interesting to me. And so we
get Lovely Warren in the studio and she sits down.
She starts talking. I'm not talking to you till the
MIC's run. I'm not doing it because she's automatically. It
was one of these things where she's going to defend.
She's uncomfortable, she's all nervous. I'm like, just take a breath,
Everything'll be cool. And I sat there silently through the
commercials and we come back on and we start talking
and she goes, we have a cultural competency issue. This
is somebody who doesn't understand the cultural issues. And I'm like,
So as we're talking, I said to her, I go,
you have children, and I have children, and I said,
what do you do when the kids are acting up?
Speaker 2: Like they're really at high pitched levels on She goes,
I talked softly. I go, you know what's so funny?
I do too, and I'm white and you're black.
Speaker 6: How about it's human And she said, she goes, well,
we have this problem. And she said, you know, it
was a black officer who sat with the mother and
blah blah. And I said, how many years do you
think that guy was on the forest? He goes, Oh,
he had to be there for a good twelve fifteen years.
I said, it sounds like you have a veteran.
Speaker 3: Officer issue, not a cultural competency issue. And I don't
know if that's that's true or not, but I think
sometimes we jump to making something an issue that isn't
necessarily an issue, and we just have people I don't
care what shade they are, because you can find them
in all a lot with this skin that act inappropriately right,
bad behavior, And we got to say this isn't acceptable.
Speaker 2: For sure, you know. And that's the stuff that I go.
I don't know how you guys navigate all that.
Speaker 4: Let's see.
Speaker 5: For us, I think it's a little bit easier because
that's what we do.
Speaker 4: That's our whole job. You have to investigate, You have
to find things out.
Speaker 5: What looks clear cut you have to prove is clearcut
or isn't. And you have to do that without a
reasonable doubt. So you can't just take everything for face value.
You know, we say there's three sides to every story.
Sure his side, her side, or his side his side,
and the truth right Because even then people I don't
even think you can help it. You're going to try
to protect yourself no matter what.
Speaker 2: So you're going to try to.
Speaker 5: Skew it a little bit to make you look not
as bad, or you're going to exclude a couple of
things to make yourself look a little bit better. But
there's always more to it, and that's where we're trained
to try to figure that out. And people get bad
at us all the time too, because they call and
they tell us what happened, and it's like, okay, that's
are you sure that's what happened, or you start digging
and they get upset like we don't believe them.
Speaker 4: But it's not my job to believe you. It's my
job to find out what the truth.
Speaker 3: Is so hard to do because as you're talking, I'm
thinking everybody has a different perspective and you're looking at
life through your lens. And I always say that most
of life is lived in our head, and by that
I mean, you know how many times you had an
argument inside your head with somebody that never comes to reality, right,
But you spend the day I'm gonna tell that one, right,
and it's in your head and you think of all
these scenarios and then it's like and so you just
you're living in your head. That's life in your head,
and that's not the reality of things. And I think
you have to even keep what you were saying is
in terms of having a perspective, is like, you know,
what you think you said to you, let's just say
your kid versus what your kid hears, and trying to
just be a little more cognizanto that you know, that's
not soft, that's humanity, and that's understanding where it comes from.
And it's interesting because you kind of can't go always
with somebody's perspective.
Speaker 2: You got to go I got it, you know.
Speaker 3: And and I always say this, I I you know,
people go, officer, this, I go. We don't call an
officer to go, hey, having a good day to day. Hey,
it's Valentine's Day on Friday or Saturday. You know, I
just want to make sure that you're gonna get by roses.
It's not you're calling at the worst moment of your life.
Speaker 5: Usually, Yeah, we always deal with people with the worst
you know, it's their worst day or you know, they're
going through the worst possible thing that they could be
going through, and that's.
Speaker 4: Why they call us.
Speaker 5: Other than that, you get people who call because you
know there's some kind of custody or domestic issue, and
a lot of times those.
Speaker 4: People just want you to do what they want you
to do.
Speaker 5: But they don't understand how the law works or what
you can do or my lawyer said you need to
do this, and then when you're like, well I can't,
you know, and here's why they don't even want to
hear it.
Speaker 4: So it's always fun.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I was going to ask two things, but
let me just stay on that because you know, at
the worst, right, what does that teach any of us
about humility? But how much is stress a factor in
people's behavior? And you can kind of see that, not
that you know, I'm sure there's some kind of psychology
that's that's sort of in the academy type thing, right,
But most anything in life I always say is it's reps.
It's the old ten thousand hour rule or whatever. That was,
you know, with anything driving, you sucked when you began parenting.
You sucked when you began. I used to make a
joke I would go, your first kid's like your first car,
you put a couple of dents in it, you bang around. Yeah,
you're pretty good by the third kid. But when it
just in terms of just stress, what that does to
people in a stressful situation.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean there's all kinds of things that stress
does to your body, and there's all kinds of studies
into it. You know, we always talk about one of
the first things to go is your your fine motor skills,
right like tying your shoes and actually grabbing laces and
manipulating with the tips of your fingers becomes hard because
you're the way that your brain works under stress. So
that's where you said, you know that ten thousand reps.
So that's how you master something. You're your brain in
the way that you remember events. You know, we do
the like a lot of time TV respond to a
robbery or someone's you know, a gunpoint robbery, and you
you get them as calm as you can and you
try to ask them what happened and recollect and well,
what did it look like it was a really big gun?
Speaker 2: Okay?
Speaker 4: But what did it look like?
Speaker 5: I know it was really because they're so focused and
scared that it was just really really big and it
turns out to be a you know, a small little pistol.
But to them, their perspective was.
Speaker 2: It was I'm about to die.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a huge gun. Now that it's all I
could focus on.
Speaker 5: You know, when there's those videos out there, I'm sure
you've seen, where there's so many things going on in
the video and then they sneak like a you know,
a mascot through and then you ask people like, so,
what did you see in the video? And they start
telling you because this character was talking or that character
was talking.
Speaker 4: And they never saw the background that walked through.
Speaker 2: It's amazing. It's it's really amazing.
Speaker 3: And also even like you know the power of suggestion
in a certain way.
Speaker 2: You know, what color car do you drive? Blue? What's
your favorite color? Blue? What color is the sky blue?
Speaker 3: Show me all the brown cars, right because my mind
is on blue and I can't find that. And I
would say that most people, and maybe you can explain
this better, what don't they understand about bad decision making,
like it's not always coming from a place of malice.
Speaker 2: I think there's no.
Speaker 5: I mean, there's all kinds of different scenarios here. But
again it goes to perspective. And you know, sometimes something
sounds like a good idea and you didn't think it
all the way through. Or sometimes people are just selfish
and it's hey, this would be great for me right now,
and not think about.
Speaker 4: The consequences for other people. And you see that a lot.
I think in accidents.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm in a hurry.
Speaker 5: I got to get to where I'm going, and they
don't leave enough space between me and the person in
front of me, and especially in the icy weather that
we have right now, they hit the brakes. I hit
the brakes, well, I hit the brakes. The car just
wouldn't stop.
Speaker 4: But you have to account for that, you have to
account for the slower times.
Speaker 3: And I gotta tell you, like I always I'll always
say and I mean this for me too, but I
say it to my kids, especially in a lot of situations,
and they say this to people, like even when the
weather wasn't bad. I just had a rant on the
podcast recently where I go, you know, it's not four ninety.
The expressways, no matter what city you're in, no matter
where you are in the country, the expressway is not
the Autobahn. And I see these people, and I get it.
Speaker 2: Cars are better built.
Speaker 3: There are so many times if you're on a long
trip you look down and go, oh my god, I'm
going this fast, and you don't realize it. They're better built,
They're sure, But the problem is you're not as good
as you think you are. And when you're driving on
those these roads, it's not Watkins Glenn. You want to
go to Watkins Glen and you want to pay the
money and go out there. I hope you hold it
through turn three because if you go into the guardrail,
motherfucker you're paying for I just want you to know that,
you go down there, they make you pay for that.
Speaker 2: You have to buy it.
Speaker 3: But when you're on the road and you see it's
somebody's family there, and you don't know they're driving skills,
and you know their level of competency, and so maybe
it's not you're not as good, but maybe they're not
as good. Just there's nothing wrong with driving the speed limit.
If you're consistently late. Fucking fix that that's a you problem.
Speaker 2: That's exactly right.
Speaker 5: It's and you hear it all the time when you
deal with people, you do the act and it's almost
never their fault, right, it's always the other person this,
the other person that, or you know, I.
Speaker 4: Was they just they did this.
Speaker 5: And I always just teach kids when I would do
drivers out, especially new drivers, it's like, you could be
the greatest driver.
Speaker 4: In the world. Right, it's other people that you also
have to worry about.
Speaker 2: Hundred person do everything right.
Speaker 5: You can be a defensive driver and that person comes
into your lane, but help yourself out. Don't be on
the cell phone, don't be texting, and right, we're all
guilty of it.
Speaker 4: Again.
Speaker 5: You talk about the muscle memory and the reps. How
many times have you gotten somewhere and all of a
sudden it comes you come to and you're like, how
did I get here?
Speaker 2: It's a hypnotic I mean, it's truly a hypnotic state.
Speaker 3: It is truly a hypnotic state because you're right and
and not even saying like God forbid anybody ever says this,
but like whoa.
Speaker 2: I get home last night.
Speaker 4: That's a different one.
Speaker 3: But when you're on you're honestly, you're thinking, you've got
stuff in your head, and it does put you almost
in a hypnotic state, and it is sort of scary
because many of us have done it. But even there,
I think you're something would snap you out of it
if something started to go wrong. But would you be
fast enough well right? And I think that we don't
do enough, especially here in safe driving courses for this
kind of weather. Ice is the great equalizers. There's no
favorite to nice. But I thought it was the BMW
Club of Rochester used to take you out to I
think it was mcc or one of the big parking lots,
and they basically built a paddock kind of more or less,
and they would flood it and they'd have you come
flying in and either lock up the.
Speaker 2: Brakes or pull up the e brake.
Speaker 3: And it showed you kind of the physics because what
might seem instinctual as the back end goes this way,
you know you want to go the opposite way to
straighten the car out, but maybe you go. And how
much our bodies lean like our whole body. And that's
why I always try to say to like my kids
and stuff, when you're driving it's sort of like boxing.
You gotta sort of keep your elbows in and just
move your elbows because that's going to pull the weight.
Don't shift your whole body, you know, it's that. Or
if something's flying at you, don't duck. There's a windshield there, right,
But we don't. We're thinking of these instinctual things. And
I did one of those courses many many many years ago,
and I still think it was one of the best
things I ever did. And I'm coming home after New
Year's and I happen to hit just a snow squall
coming through Victor and I'm coming down Turk Hill and
the big part of Turk Hill in Parenton, and I
start to lose control of the car and there's cars
coming up.
Speaker 2: The other way.
Speaker 3: And I had I was on the phone, but through
Bluetooth and stuff, and I'm and my mother's on the
phone and I go, don't talk, but don't hang up.
I might I might need something. And at the end
she goes, I wish I wish you had uh, I
wish I had taped this phone call. I said, yeah,
it would been great because my father used to call
it self help. I just kept saying fuck over and
over and over and fuck fuck and you know, but
you knew to turn the car certain way as it
fishtailed out and I was able to get control of it.
Speaker 2: But it was like pure ice.
Speaker 3: And you know, taking your foot off the brake instead
of even on a hill and trying to you know,
navigate that or or I don't know, it's again reps.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you have to experience it, and that's where you
know you'll see I remember as.
Speaker 2: A kid, we would do it.
Speaker 5: You'd find it abandon parking lot somewhere that had some space,
and you wouldn't go too fast, but you would purposely
drive a little erratic to just feel what it's.
Speaker 4: Like to slide or okay, I'm starting to slide? How
do I correct that?
Speaker 5: And just getting those reps you know that being said,
make sure you do it somewhere safe and have permission,
but we would, we would do that, and you just
get the feel for the car and how it's going
to do. Because front wheel drive, rear, reel drive, four
wheel drive, they're all different, you know, and again none
of them are perfect. The amount of people in big
trucks with four wheel drives off the road on the
expressways all the time.
Speaker 4: Like I got four wheel drive. It's not a four
wheel slick.
Speaker 2: I got you a cowboy. Yeah, you know, hey man,
I got four wheel drive. I'll see people think they're
in I know how much has.
Speaker 3: The you're in uniform with the Minerue County sheriff. But
the body cam? How has that changed things? And I
would say almost for the better, because again we're gonna
go on somebody's memory.
Speaker 2: The officer was is.
Speaker 3: Mean to me, gruff to me, whatever, or this other
person said, and you can go back and go I
was standing right there, and here's a transcript, here's the
body camera footage.
Speaker 5: And you know, again it's it's perceived. You know, the
deputy said something or they took it one way. But
the beauty of the body cam is just that you
can you can watch it back and see, okay, well
that's not what they said, or you know, maybe I
can see where you could take it that way, but
that that's not what happened. And I would say that
they're great, you know, for our recollection as well of Asians,
or for me now as being a supervisor. You know,
someone calls and complaints or or the deputies have to
use force on somebody to an effect or arrest. I
can now I've watched that to make sure number one,
that they're doing what they're supposed to do and that
they did it the correct way, right, and then you know,
you can review all that and then when people call
it exactly like you said, oh, you know the deputy
said this or the deputy did that, a lot of
times you're like, okay, well come on in, we'll watch
the body camp Click. They hang right out, oh, because
you know, yeah, they know they're reliant. But no, it's
been fantastic. It's yeah, we haven't had anything I would
say to hide for the twenty years I've been here,
and now it just goes to show people that well
and things the right way.
Speaker 2: You know, it's got to be hard because.
Speaker 3: Something goes wrong and you're in a situation I would
think you're a representation of authority, right, this person, but
that also comes with power, and then on top of
that restraint, and I would think like when not using
authority matters more than using it and being aware of
that and sort of seeing the situation.
Speaker 5: And this goes back to kind of what we were
talking about a minute ago. Right, everything you've ever seen
on social media is a ten second clip, right second,
maybe clip and all look what the cop did.
Speaker 4: Look with this, look at that. Most of those videos,
and especially.
Speaker 5: All the videos in my experience with us, those are
an hour long, and that first hour is the deputy
being polite, you know, explaining everything to people like here's
here's you know. My best example is always Wegmans. People
forget Wegmans is open to the public, but it's a
part private business and everybody right, not just Wegmans.
Speaker 4: But that's just my example. So if Wegmans calls and
says you're not welcome there anymore, you have to leave,
and they ask you to leave, you don't they call us?
Speaker 3: What is the what let's say that happens, yea, and
you come out and the person is probably a embarrassed
and mad a shame.
Speaker 2: Uh what do they say? So please tell me it's
a freedom of something, Please tell me.
Speaker 5: Well, most people will argue that it's a public place
and they don't have to go, or they're going to
tell you why they deserve to stay. But it doesn't matter.
They have the right to refuse you service no matter what.
Speaker 4: We would show up and we would explain that we
would be as kind as we can just say, hey,
look at let's just go outside. We'll talk about it, right, let's.
Speaker 5: Do this, and we do our best to de escalate
and get that person calm and just solve it.
Speaker 4: In ninety percent of the time that's what happens. But
my example is, and this is.
Speaker 5: What people forget. You're going to leave. We can't just say, hey, well,
this person doesn't want to go, so we're going to leave.
Speaker 4: We're the police. That's our job.
Speaker 5: Eventually, we're going to carry you out of there, and
it may be four or five of us, but we're
as best we can and as safely as we can.
Speaker 4: Our job is to get you out of there.
Speaker 5: It's the same as your house. If someone in your
house and you want them to leave, we're going to
do that. We're going to spend a half an hour,
twenty five minutes, whatever it takes to try to calmly and.
Speaker 4: Politely get you to go out. But there comes a
point where we're going to carry you out of there because.
Speaker 2: That's a lot of restraint under pressure.
Speaker 5: It is, and there's other jobs that are happening. There's
other people who have emergencies that we need to get to.
So that pressure is weighing on you. There's gonna be
a you know, ten people standing there with their phones
out trying to record and shoot, you know, grain gain
followers on whatever they have. But that's where their strength
comes in.
Speaker 4: And that's where I've.
Speaker 5: Always found that most people just need a why, right,
and they don't understand.
Speaker 4: So if you calmly explain to them, and a lot
of people want to be heard, so we let them
talk a little bit, right, and you have a conversation,
and usually it ends up here's how this is going
to go.
Speaker 5: There's two ways where you're going to walk out or
we're going to carry you out.
Speaker 4: We would prefer you walk out. Just explain it to
them and then.
Speaker 5: It usually works out, but it doesn't always. Sometimes people
just don't care, and unfortunately that's our job.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, boy, there's so many things because I
go you can see how your power power that the
that the police have and what you're commissioned to do.
I don't know if I'm using the right word, but
how much that tests your character when no one's watching,
like you know, we're not seeing that, and we see this,
and I always think, like with anything what gets the
most attention, the worst of whatever. So when we see
that we all human. Yes, are there officers who probably
shouldn't be behind the badge?
Speaker 2: Probably? Does that mean they're all like that? No? Are
there teachers who shouldn't probably be teaching young kids? Absolutely? Right?
Are all teachers like that? No? You know what I mean?
Speaker 3: And the same thing doctors, whatever. So you got to
kind of look at it that way. But we focus
on one as kind of the worst. And I can
say I can see where I mean, Look, I don't know.
You've got the art of trying to talk people down.
You get the art of this where in certain situations
you're trying to sum somebody up in thirty seconds.
Speaker 2: For sure. Body language.
Speaker 5: I'm a big fan of bodycam for teachers and for
everybody else. And you know, like let's show everybody, let's
see what everybody's And that goes back to it, right,
you know, you hire the best people you can. There's
civil service, there's there's all these policies and procedures put
into place to try to find the best people that
we can find. But you can never truly control people.
And then there's all kinds of other factors like you said,
you see the worst of the worst, and sometimes that
affects people in the way that they interact. But that's
one of the best things about the body cams is
any time I can go and I can review the
bodycam of my deputies to make sure, like, hey, this
is just a traffic stop, there's no complaint, there's no
other reason other than let me check in on this deputy.
Speaker 4: And I can watch their interaction and say, hey, you know.
Speaker 5: What, you did a good job, but the way you
said this or you did that, that could be taken
the wrong way.
Speaker 4: So maybe and you can kind of coach and mentor
them a little bit.
Speaker 2: That's that's really.
Speaker 3: Really powerful what you just said, I think because it
comes to it's the art. It really is an art
of being able to talk to people. I say to
my kids all the time, especially a young one. And
somebody said to me, hey, is this something you say
to him? And I said, it is, because he said,
my dad says this all the time. Your knee jerk
reaction is usually the wrong reaction right the first time.
But what you're even talking about is, you know, de
escalation is a life skill in anything, for sure, right
especially it depending on your job, but even in your
own home, and tone and pacing and even silence at
time is all important. And while listening sometimes beats talking.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, And I mean you can, like you said,
body language, right, you can slyly smile at somebody, never
say a word, and just drive them insane, right, just
with a cocky smile or a certain look.
Speaker 2: I was so good at that. So it's a kid
piss a teacher of them.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 5: And and again I always like to tell people to,
like I said, there's all those plans and there's all
those policies to try to get the best possible people,
but sometimes those bad people slip through the cracks.
Speaker 4: And that's why it's a constant review.
Speaker 5: And I remember years ago people were alway saying, well,
how come we never see, you know, the cops speaking
out against bad cops. How can we never see the
bad cops getting what they deserve? And it's like, well,
how come you don't see that? You know, Xerox fired
somebody yesterday. They're not going to have a parade or
put out a press release that we fired somebody, right,
We fire people all the time.
Speaker 4: I mean not all the time, I.
Speaker 2: Guess, No, but they trust. Yeah.
Speaker 5: Look at what was it last year where we fired
a couple of the jail deputies because they were, you know,
they were committing crimes and.
Speaker 4: The sheriff right away put that right out.
Speaker 5: We hadn't even fired him yet, and he was putting
out that we had an investigation because he's so open
and wants to make sure that you hear from him,
whether it's good, bad, or ugly. You're gonna hear it
from me because I'm going to be that. You know,
I hate the word transparency, but that's what it is.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, and I also see it as it's it's
skills I think everyone needs in terms of the listening,
that talking, the staying out ahead of things, trying to
be transparent with most people so they know where you
stand and and and to ability. All that builds is
the trust you're looking for right?
Speaker 2: Trust? What accountability?
Speaker 3: Right? And whether you have And I always I'm sorry,
I hear accountability and I go I think so many
adults hear that as punishment you know what I mean,
or I'm in trouble.
Speaker 2: You need to take accountability for this, and that's not
necessarily what it is.
Speaker 3: Just be accountable for who you are and what you know,
what you're doing, what you're saying, and whether you wear
a badge or not. These are skills that can really
help you just get through this life.
Speaker 2: Jesus.
Speaker 5: It always amazes me the amount of people who have
no self awareness.
Speaker 2: M r.
Speaker 5: They just they don't understand their body language, they don't
understand the way.
Speaker 4: They're talking, like you. These people they should never play poker.
Speaker 5: Yeah right right, all the tell You can see it
on their face, you know, the hanger or the disgusted
whatever it may be. But uh, you know, so many
people just need to be a little bit more self
aware of you know.
Speaker 4: And again it's maybe I'm having a bad day.
Speaker 5: Maybe I just came from a really bad scene and
that's over and I'm onto the next one and I'm
struggling with that.
Speaker 3: But you don't think that, Yeah, you gotta. We're never
looking from the other person's perspective. It's almost, you know,
it's hard to that. I mean almost in things like fears,
yours verse theirs. You're human too, and you have maybe
a greater awareness of how a situation can turn on
a dime, and so there's a higher alert, you know,
and I don't know how you manage your fear while
you're dealing with someone else's. You know, you're trying doing
that with people. It's it's crazy, a lot of practice, yeah, you.
Speaker 4: Know, and it's you hit it on the head.
Speaker 5: Every dispatch call that we get comes in, I tell
people comes in as bloody murder, right, it's always this
person might have a gun or whatever, because people want
you to get there as quick as they can.
Speaker 4: But no matter what the.
Speaker 5: Call is, as you're driving there and thinking of the
route and watching for traffic, you're also thinking what's going
to happen?
Speaker 4: How is this going to go?
Speaker 5: Worst case scenario, best case scenario, and everything in between,
trying to mentally prepare for it.
Speaker 4: Where are I going to park?
Speaker 5: How am I going to approach this? You know, all
that stuff's going through your head and then you get
there and you have to handle it. You know, no
matter what the call is, whether it's a you know,
just a domestic with couples fighting over you know, who
gets control of the remote control, or you know, somebody
beating somebody up or somebody being held hostage, you never know.
Speaker 3: Well, staying calm when chaos is loud, right, I mean,
that's the thing. And as you're talking and is going
to sound ridiculous, and I hope I don't say anything
too dumb or too dumb sounding to you. But you know,
one of the things that I do for myself is
I meditate, and I do find that to be very helpful.
Speaker 2: And all this is just.
Speaker 3: Kind of trying to empty your head, not let things
recognize stuff as it comes up. Do they offer things
like that for officers, because every motherfucking days, but you
know what I mean, it's like Groundhog's Day in some instances.
Speaker 2: And I hope that doesn't.
Speaker 3: Sound too weird, But I do think that there's a
benefit to trying to learn to control you and to
control your emotions. And officers do a great job of it.
Speaker 5: But you're human, yeah, like you know, pride, macho, whatever
you want to call it. Like that's that's one of
the worst possible things. Like we're all human, we all
have emotions, we all have needs, egos, egos, you know,
And it's it's self awareness. It's realizing, hey, I'm having
a bad day. And this is where counting on your coworkers, right,
if you and I are part and we work together,
and I just had a miserable day. Right, something's going
on in my life. My grandma died whatever, right, Like
there's something eating me up. I'm gonna lean on you
to say, hey, look at, I need you to talk
to everybody tonight. I'll be here, I'll help out, i'll
take reports, whatever, but I don't have it in me
today to talk. So if you can do that, you know,
and you know, I might have to jump in now
and then or do whatever. And that's a big thing too,
is having that awareness of I've been talking to this
person for ten minutes. I'm not getting through to them.
Maybe you can, right, And I'm and most of our
people are that way. We're self aware enough to say,
look at, I'm not getting through. Maybe you have a
different tone, maybe you have something that you can connect
and you come in and you start talking about baseball
or something and boom, there's a connection.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 5: It's knowing that it's being okay with I'm not getting
this done, or in the answer your question, we do.
We have a very good wellness program.
Speaker 3: I'm happy to hear that because I think that it's
something that you know, we're becoming more aware of mental health.
It's more openly talked about, but talk doesn't lead to
action always or even knowledge of what that is. And
I just think that, you know, you can't be good
for anybody else if you're not taking care of yourself first.
And people go, well, that's a little selfish. Good, Please
be selfish. Please be selfish as a parent. Give yourself
a break, don't you know. Don't burn yourself out somewhere
because it saves no one, You're right, and or serves
no one.
Speaker 4: I should say mental health is harder than physical health.
Speaker 5: Yeah, if I had a broken ankle, yeah, you wouldn't
think twice about Well, of course you're not going to
where You're not going to that job.
Speaker 2: Well, it's the.
Speaker 5: Same thing if you you know, and we're all different,
Like things affect me a little bit different than they
affect my partner or other people you know, or you know.
You and I can go to the same exact call
and it's a it's a car fire, you unfortunately with
a tragedy.
Speaker 4: And to me, I'm like, Okay, I just got to
do this.
Speaker 5: We'll get it done, get the car up the road,
do everything, all the report, everything we got to do.
But to you, something about that car or something about that.
Speaker 2: It was a beautiful Ferrari, new electric Ferrari got fire.
I mean, have you seen this thing? It was designed
by Apple, the interiors by the old Apple.
Speaker 4: Guys, then burning for three months. Still don't go out
with electric car, but you wanna say it like that
kind of stuff.
Speaker 5: So, and it's good, and it's also on. One of
the things they're teaching us is it's on your fellow
deputy to notice like, hey, something's not right with you
or we had.
Speaker 4: A really rough night.
Speaker 2: Yeah, are you okay?
Speaker 5: And especially me as a supervisor, that's now my job
for all of my people is just to check in
with them, like, hey, that was kind of a messed
up call you guys, Okay, you need anything?
Speaker 4: How you doing? Like I just sleep last night, you know,
just just checking on them.
Speaker 3: Well, and that goes back to and I don't I
don't know because I am finding.
Speaker 2: You often hear things like ah, this generation puts of
snow lakes, blah blah blah.
Speaker 3: So I had two young guys in here, their high
school hockey players, travel hockey players, Kevin.
Speaker 2: One of them was.
Speaker 3: Kevin's son, and we're talking and I start saying things
about that used to go on in the locker room,
and they look at me, and then Kevin.
Speaker 2: Goes, tell them what you did in college about this thing?
Speaker 3: And I tell them this story, and I thought it
was at the time one of the funniest things I
could have done.
Speaker 2: I I'll just give it to you.
Speaker 3: I've told this story so many times, so I'm sure
people were sick of hearing it. But there was a
kid who lived across the hall from me, and his
mom came in and I was like, moms don't look
that good.
Speaker 2: Ever, I've never seen a mom that looked that good.
Speaker 3: So I found out that this was an achilles heel
for the kids because so I would always go, I go, hey,
when's your mom coming.
Speaker 2: So then one time somebody goes his mom was here
and I missed it.
Speaker 3: I go, oh my god, and I go running into
his room and I bust open the door and I
pick up the couch cushion and I go, oh my god,
your mom was here. Why didn't you tell me? And
I thought it was really funny. I say that these
guys they go they don't sing it, there's like no laughter,
and it was like, that's bullying.
Speaker 2: And they weren't being pussies about it. They were just like,
you're an asshole. And I was.
Speaker 3: I thought, oh, this is okay. They're better than I was.
They're way better than I was.
Speaker 4: And I don't know why, but it just popped in
my head, like I think it's also different, like the way,
not the way we were raised, but like the movies, right, like.
Speaker 5: Porky's all those different things. That's what's in our head,
and that's what your influence is.
Speaker 2: It's not that way anymore.
Speaker 3: Well, I always was looking for the most outrageous thing
I could do that would be just on the line
of like I didn't want to right exactly. I wasn't
looking to get punched in the face, and I wouldn't
I usually. Even one of my kids said the other night,
we're all at dinner and he goes, you know, Dan,
I don't see you as a guy to have ever
started a fight.
Speaker 2: And I said, and I go, what are you talking about?
And he's like, well, I mean I know.
Speaker 3: You box and did something like that, but I don't
see you starting a fight, but you would defend a fight.
And they were talking about the older boys were at
a bar and I go, oh, I got thrown out
of there once and they go what happened? And I said, well,
at the time, I was married and their mother was there,
I said, and the karaoke guy started saying shit about
your mom and stuff, and I started fucking yelling at him,
and he knew who I was.
Speaker 2: I was on the radio at the.
Speaker 3: Time, and I said I was ready to go, but
I didn't necessarily start it.
Speaker 2: He said some shit that. And there was a time.
This is a bad one. I'm in the city with. Uh,
it's the parade, Saint Patrick's State parade.
Speaker 3: One of the kids that my son says, kind of
bring a friend used.
Speaker 2: To live in the city.
Speaker 3: Apparently there was a girl on the side that he
used to date. She's now with her new boyfriend. They're
standing there and the guy starts saying some shit, like
getting in their face and doing this. And now it's
like it's mom and clearly not the kid's dad, but
he's her mom's partner. And they're all standing on the
side of the thing, and uh, the kids John and
he's pretending to like, you know, gesticulatingly he's going to
come out and all this, And so I walk over
and I look.
Speaker 2: At the the.
Speaker 3: Probably my sister was saying, it's misogynistic to talk to
the guy. But I did, I go get your fucking
dog on a leash.
Speaker 2: I go get your my kids. Like I remember that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I go, yeah, because I'm not gonna you know,
I'm not looking to do anything, but if it has
to I will and if I get hurt, I get hurt.
Speaker 2: But not smart.
Speaker 5: Now, with hindsight, you look back and you're like, would
it have been worth it?
Speaker 2: Absolutely fucking not.
Speaker 4: But that emotion and they at.
Speaker 3: The time, it's like, get your dog on a leash
and let you know. And I'm looking to say it
in a way that's going to be impactful.
Speaker 2: To you that you don't like, hey man, slow down.
No one hears that. No one hears that.
Speaker 4: And that's the thing.
Speaker 2: Words are powerful.
Speaker 5: That's what's tough, and that's what's also you know, you
try to be polite, you try to be as kind
and as you can be, but sometimes, especially with people
who are intoxicated, you know, sometimes that doesn't work. Sometimes
you have to speak people's language, and sometimes you have
to cuss. Sometimes you have to raise your voice right
and again that's where you get the bystanders with the
video and they're like, oh my god, look at the
way you talk to this person.
Speaker 2: Right, But we read in the room man, you know.
I mean, that's the thing. And that's why I.
Speaker 3: Think I go back to veteran versus anything. We you know,
I say this, I don't know that people really understand
what I'm saying when I say words don't teach. They instruct.
We can get meaning out of it. We understand everything
has a meaning behind it, but they don't teach. Experience teaches,
and so when you're in a situation and you were
trained for something and I don't care what the job was,
you and go, oh, this is what they meant. Oh
this is this is from where I need to apply
this because I think that's your that's when you learn it,
that's when you see it, and you know, you can
be a great student and regurgitate everything, but can you
apply it?
Speaker 2: And that that's the difference to me. Oh yeah, you know,
you know, And then.
Speaker 5: It's going back for a second because it just popped
into my head because that's how it works, you know, squirrel.
You know, the muscle memory and the training like defensive
tactics or you know, use of force and getting someone
under rest. You train that so much that when you're
brand new, you find out that in the way stress
works on your brain. You get that stressful situation, someone
takes a swing, they're drunk, they're they're not going to
go to jail whatever. Next thing, you know, you're on
the ground there in handcuffs and you stop and the
you know, the boss walks up and goes, oh you okay.
Speaker 4: What'd you do? And you're like, I.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 5: Because stress, and like the driving the carsonari, your body
just takes over and that muscle memory, thank god, And
that's why we practice it so much.
Speaker 4: And now with the body cams we.
Speaker 5: Can go back and we can watch it and be like,
oh my god, I did everything that I was supposed
to do without even having to think about.
Speaker 3: It, right, and that and that's the stuff that's so
so good. You know, we've talked a long time about
the job, and I really wanted when I thought about
you know, you coming in, I wanted this not to
be about crimes and kind of stuff about people, because
that's really what this is about.
Speaker 2: And it's about safety and uh.
Speaker 3: You know, you know, misconceptions and things and all that,
but talk to me about off the clock. I mean,
can you actually turn it off and and carry We
always talk about, you know, taking your work home with you. Well, yeah,
taking your work home with you doesn't mean you're bringing
a file home and you're gonna sneak away from your
wife for twenty minutes so you can get you know,
the next proposal done. It's also what did I see
today and one of my Karen Foden, how do I
turn that off? And that's to me, that's a that's
a skill.
Speaker 2: Yeah for sure.
Speaker 5: And it's again that that self awareness of I'm at home,
I'm sitting on my couch and I'm going through my
head of what happened last night, what did we do right?
Speaker 4: What do we need to work on?
Speaker 5: And again in my role, now, what do I have
to talk about in roll call tomorrow to make sure
that you know, these guys do it the right way?
Or you know, hey, great job yesterday on this watch
out when you're doing you know, just start game planning.
You're thinking about that stuff. So it's definitely hard to
turn off, but you gotta you gotta escape. You can't
just constantly live in that world, you know. So for me,
it's it's family.
Speaker 3: Well, okay, great point, and I think that take it
away from even what you do to anybody anybody. One
of the things that I found really really difficult at
times was people who were so affected by something that
happened outside of where they were presently, and.
Speaker 2: By that I mean social media.
Speaker 3: Right, somebody said something, so I put my opinion out there.
Now they're telling me I'm wrong, and that is that's
where all of a sudden, my you're insulting my team,
you know. And I used to make this analogy and
I would say it, and it's kind of a harsh way,
I guess to say it to some people, but it's
not on social media. You're not wrong, You're dead fucking wrong.
And people take that and so it used to drive
me crazy because I would see it, you know, and
I'd go, we're home, can you do a little grounding?
Speaker 2: Where are your feet right now? Right? Where are we
and what's happening?
Speaker 3: And the other people that are around need, especially if
you're a parent, need you, and they need you to
be present or as present as you can be, even
if you're giving them the eighty twenty rule. You know,
I don't know don't burn the burgers. But let's you know,
hear the kid, and when you're so pissed off because
somebody who you don't know just said something on X
or whatever platform you're on, I go, that's the stuff
that really really makes made me angry.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you gotta, you gotta unplug, right, and let me
just put this out there because I know my wife's
gonna watch this.
Speaker 4: I'm also guilty.
Speaker 5: Right if you're bored and there you're sitting there, it's
easy to open up Twitter and just scroll through to
try to find a funny video and laugh.
Speaker 4: But you're absolutely right.
Speaker 5: You you have to unplug because next thing, you know,
and it's not even if you don't come, I'd never
comment on things it's worth but even.
Speaker 3: Although I do like reading comments, and I'm just I'm
sorry to interject real quick, whenever a woman of a
certain age it's feeling good about herself, especially if she's
recently single, divorced, or maybe divorced and then the next
relationship didn't work out, there's a selfie. There's a selfie, right,
and that means she's feeling good about herself. And then
I like to read through the comments and I'm looking
for the guy I know who's married, and I go,
don't do it, don't do it.
Speaker 2: I did it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I see hey looking good and I go, you're
an idiot, you're you're a mora.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you're right, And.
Speaker 4: It's it's we're so emotionally charged, right.
Speaker 5: People are almost exhausted because you had a bad day
at work, things are going on at home, and what
do you do to unstressed? You go on to social media,
social media where it's all emotionally charged. This politics, that politics,
this sports, that sports, and it's all.
Speaker 4: It's so easy to you.
Speaker 5: You know, you said it like you're you're dead wrong
because I'm not looking you in the eye and saying
you're dead wrong and seeing the humanity and having compassions.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, you know. And uh.
Speaker 5: Also part of that, like how do you not take
it home? It helps to have friends who aren't in
the same line of work, right, because if you go
and you hang out with your buddies after work and
all you do is talk shop. No matter what you do,
even if you're an architect, you're not escaping work. You
need some of those outside people, friends, family, whoever it
is that don't do what you do. And then even
when with them, it's not all it's not all about work,
because that's the first thing to get especially once you're
a cop. You're a cop, it's like a doctor is
this looking forward?
Speaker 3: It's your identity, right, it becomes your identity to everybody.
Speaker 4: Absolutely.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 4: My aunt used to do it all the time. It
was like, oh, this is my this is my nephew
the cop.
Speaker 5: It's like proud, yeah, which is great, but it's also
it's not I am that's what I do.
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly.
Speaker 3: Hard sometimes to separate that, I would think, even I
mean for anybody right that goes away.
Speaker 2: I mean you talk to athletes.
Speaker 3: There was a professional, former professional soccer player in here
one day and we were talking about something completely different,
and he talked about how hard it was to walk
away because what do I do?
Speaker 2: Now? What do I do?
Speaker 3: And if I'm an officer and I see something like
how many times I don't know you're driving. Let's say
you're off duty, you're on vacation, and you see something
happen and you want to get to the side of
the road to just say that the people step a
little further away because you're too.
Speaker 2: Close to the heads.
Speaker 3: Don't sit in the car necessarily if we can get
out of the car and get further down, because.
Speaker 2: Who knows what could happen.
Speaker 5: You want to help, yes, while you take the you
want to help people. But and I get it, it's
intriguing to other people because it's it's fascinating, right, you
see things and do things that other people don't do.
So they have so many questions that they want to ask.
But that also doesn't allow you anytime.
Speaker 2: Right, there's a word that or a phrase.
Speaker 3: Now that becoming very popular and and I think some
people look at it and.
Speaker 2: Go, well, soft here self care.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, okay, So what do we think of self
care and who do we apply it to? Well, I
think most people hear that and you go, well, it's
somebody going to get a massage or doing this. And
I said to somebody, I go, your self care is
going to be different. Now I I am somebody who
I'm sure would rub people the wrong way a little bit.
You know, we're seeing less people drinking right there. You
talk to anybody in the liquor industry and it's actually
dipping for maybe the first time. It used to be
one of these things I go two things that are
recession proof, and one of them would be the liquor industry,
but they're seeing that start to go down. And I said,
one of the things that I think was so damaging
from the pandemic was the work from home and.
Speaker 2: The continuation of that.
Speaker 3: And the only reason I say that is again the
socialization more than anything, because you don't get the same
tone through text. How many times did you get pissed
off because you misread a word or you did whatever,
And that's not fair to anybody, including yourself, by the way,
and that you know self care and there are people
you can go on and find an expert about every
health thing in the fucking world. Then I'm sure alcohol
it's the worst thing you can ever put in your body. Okay, probably,
but let me say this damage your liver a little
bit and go to a bar and have a fucking
conversation with somebody.
Speaker 2: Like, let's stop doing this. And I feel like the
reason I say it was damaging when we do this
work from home is it's not romantic relationships. I'm talking about.
It's mentorship.
Speaker 3: It's other people who have started great businesses because they
work together at something else and they found a commonality.
We just there's a miss there and I say. Somebody goes, well,
what's your self care? And I would go sometimes it's
just going a happy hour and see my buddies. And
it's not I'm not saying getting off the rails, although
that happens, but that or if somebody somebody said to
me too, you know, smoking is such a bad thing,
and I said it is, but you know what smoking
really is.
Speaker 2: It's about breathing.
Speaker 3: It's breathing and when you are smoking and you feel good,
you're taking that deep breath in and you're letting it out.
Speaker 2: Get it. I can understand. I've always liked the taste
of that sort of stuff. I get it. It shouldn't
do it. We know there's fucking warnings.
Speaker 3: On the box you will die, okay, But when I
say things like meditation or breathing or take a break,
that's what a cigarette break is.
Speaker 2: It's a fucking mental health break. I'm sorry.
Speaker 4: Well, the other problem is moderation. Moderation we seem to
struggle with lately.
Speaker 5: But you know, alcoholics depress yes, no, and not like
I feel bad about myself depressant. It slows down your
nervous system.
Speaker 2: So that's where your reaction time, your speech gets crow.
Speaker 5: Sure, you take too much and then it's bad. But
a drink to you know, standard drinks, and you're gonna
be a lot more calm. But there's meditation, there's all
that other stuff.
Speaker 4: But you hit it on the head.
Speaker 5: I think it's that socialization it is, you know, we're
forgetting what it's like to talk to other people, talk
to your interact with your neighbors, you have that human contact,
that human connection, because social media is killing that and
text messages and emails. I hate emails and it's mostly
like you said, because I sit and I write an email,
especially in my old spot, because you're sending it out
to the world, and you're like, how could this be
taken wrong? And you second guess every single word, and
the stress of that alone is horrible, right, because you're like,
I know what I want to say, I know what's
in my brain, and I know what my intention is,
but now I have to read it six times to
make sure that no one could possibly take this the
wrong way because I put this word next to that
word or whatever.
Speaker 3: How long would it take to craft something like that? Seriously,
Like how much time or could you have somebody else
read it? Always, you know, always, this is where, like
I swear, in every job you do, maybe you call
it a mentor, or you got to check in with
somebody who's doing it to go what am I not
doing here? Or if you feel a little off about
it or a little iffy, have somebody look at it. Absolutely,
you know, and that is a socialization thing, and that
is a bonding thing, and you could be somebody, you know.
Going back to where we started out, sort of mentioned
the politics of things, and you said you had grandparents,
one on one side of the aisle, one on the other,
and they could have conversations and they knew when to stop.
And it reminded me of a thing because somebody said
to me, you should get two people in here from
opposite sides of the political spectrum.
Speaker 2: We're so.
Speaker 3: Opposite now, were so divided, and I said, I don't
want that as much as I want the family members
who are no longer talking to each other because somebody
is on this side and someone supports that side.
Speaker 5: Well, that was going to be my point right right
nowadays it's well, I'm not even talking to my family
anymore because they voted for so and so, yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, Is it not worth it? No?
Speaker 3: And I think some people are, you know, changing minds
and things like that.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think I don't know.
Speaker 4: That's crazy.
Speaker 2: I will say.
Speaker 3: The only thing I'll say about like the current administration
is I don't know where we end up when it ends.
But I don't think I'll ever laugh as much as
I did during this. And I'm not even laughing to
be mean. When he opens his mouth and he says stuff,
there's no filters and it's somewhat entertaining. And I have
said many many, many times, fan or not, maybe the
most effective in the office we've ever had, said he
was going to do something, did it. We may not
agree with the way he got done. But right now,
I don't think there's border crossings are happening or their
way down, you understand, And I get I understand. I'm
not trying to even do that. I'm just saying just
on that surface alone and by death anission. The office
of the Presidency on the world, I believe, is a
bully pulpit, right and it's a chance to get up
there and say your stuff. And many times there's a dance, right.
We want to unite everybody. We're a huge country, huge
made great by our diversity, truly, but we're a huge country,
so trying to do stuff. So you would get hey,
there's a poll and they're sick of hearing you say this.
So whoever's in the office sort of backs off that rhetoric.
You don't say that to this guy. He gets up
there and he just keeps saying it.
Speaker 2: And my point being in that is it may be.
Speaker 3: The most effective use of the office in the history
of the office. I'm sure people are going fuck you
men in no, no, no, I'm not saying one way
or the other. Just please just try to think about
this without the emotion.
Speaker 2: And that's hard. But when we look at it, I go, yeah,
I mean we can agree.
Speaker 3: Disagree, okay, But what's happening is people are taking notice
and he doesn't back down on shit, and that's a
difference that I think we haven't seen.
Speaker 4: What kills me is the people who you know.
Speaker 5: You go back to the sports reference and it's like, well,
my guy didn't win, so I hope this guy fails
miserably to the point where they're ready to sink the
whole country.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, right.
Speaker 5: What was the analogy someone gave. It's like he's the
pilot of the plane and you're hoping the plane crashes,
but you're on the plane.
Speaker 2: You're on the plane.
Speaker 4: What are you doing.
Speaker 2: We don't want.
Speaker 4: I don't care who it is. I want them to
be the best and do the best that they can do.
Speaker 2: Right, right.
Speaker 4: It's such an emotionally charge.
Speaker 3: Well, the other thing is we're two. There is one
side of the aisle. I won't say too much. I
think there's well, we have two political parties right that
are essentially in power here. I know there's more, but
there's two that are really the main ones and one
side and you canfigure this. I think they I think
they answered to two things. I think they answered to
big business, and I think the answer to the church
to a certain degree. And the other side, I feel
like you have become so splintered that you can't even
agree because we are and and every you want to
be recognized and have rights and things like that. I
get it, but now you've come so splintered that you
are not agreeing with each other because you know, we
want gay marriage. But then hey, fuck you over here,
what about this? And so we have the infighting of
us that you're not. It's like, I don't think that'll
ever get together.
Speaker 5: And it almost feels like if you're center, middle of
the road, like there's no place for you. Everything's almost
become so it's.
Speaker 2: Nice and warm in the middle. Just come and listen,
Just be nice.
Speaker 3: I don't want to keep you too late, because I
know you've come an office shift and we're doing this
fairly early. But if people understood one thing about this job,
what would you wanted to be If there's a misconception
you'd like to have a race hmm, I guess, or
even a truth you wish the public kind of understood
better that.
Speaker 4: We're here to help, right. We're part of this community.
Speaker 5: We're not We're not people from outside who you know,
are here to bully people or do.
Speaker 2: Any of that.
Speaker 5: We're citizens who live in this community where your neighbors,
where your friends were, your family were people you know.
I think it would be also that we don't make
the law, we enforce it. We don't always agree with
all the laws, but job so if you don't like
the law, write your Congress people.
Speaker 4: They're the ones that can change that, not us. You know,
and we're approachable. I think that's a that's a.
Speaker 5: Big misconception too, is that you know, we're we're just
out looking to arrest people and you know, take them
to jail or write them a bunch of tickets, And
that's not true.
Speaker 4: There's it's safety. We're here for people's.
Speaker 2: Safety, right.
Speaker 3: Well, landing on this one, like, what is one thing
that you learned about people in this job that surprised you?
Speaker 2: I guess would be the.
Speaker 3: The thing that I'd want to know surprised you that
you were like, you know, was there anything in terms
of like just the collection of humanity that most people
because I think most things are coming from one space,
especially in a situation you see and I would say
that's fear if you get to the bottom of it.
It's anger described disguised as fear.
Speaker 5: It's fear for sure, and it you know, the job
is the job, and we covered how people call when
they're in fear or they're having their worst day. A
few years ago, for me, I became a community engagement
deputy where it was more I don't want to say
officer friendly, but it was more of an educational role
and going out and not dealing with people on their
worst day, and that was eye opening because you're dealing
with people who want you to come and speak to
their group or you know, interact with them.
Speaker 4: And it was good to see because.
Speaker 5: Life, again is perception, and if all you see all
the time is the bad, you start to get jaded
and think that the whole world is bad and it's not.
And you know, remembering that even though that's that person's
worst day, they're not necessarily a bad person. So I
guess that's they're seeing this the scale spectrum of different things.
Speaker 2: Reserving judgment, yep, yeah.
Speaker 3: I mean we often hear like, don't judge it, and
I go, I I'm an idiot, I guess because I'll say, well,
I'm not so sure about that, And here's why. It's
an instinct, right, Sometimes if I see something and I
go the opposite direction, that's a judgment and there's a
reason why. And I'm not sure that judging is necessarily
wrong judging to exclude judging, for I get it right,
not that treating somebody who haven't even talked to as
though they're not human okay, shitty, But I think judging
in a situation is there, and I think, you know,
hearing you, I think as a police officer, I'll reserve
that a little bit to you fully hear the person.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and that's definitely something that I've learned over the years.
You know, whether again it's anything on social media now,
you know.
Speaker 4: I'll show my wife.
Speaker 5: I'm like, oh my gosh, look at this. I'm like, well,
it's on social media, so take it with a grain
of salt, because there could be way more to it
than you know. And that's just how my brain works,
because that's what I'm trained to do. I have to
get all the answers before.
Speaker 4: And people do it all the time. They're like, oh
my gosh, what do you think about this?
Speaker 5: And I'm like, I don't know. I don't have enough information,
especially cop things, like there's cop videos out there and
they're like, what do you think about this? What do
you think about the shooting in Minnesota.
Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't know.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I just know I saw it didn't look good.
But I won't comment because I don't have all the information.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I often say I don't I'm not educated enough
to comment on that.
Speaker 2: I do say that.
Speaker 3: Because i'm not, And you know, that's a viodal situation
that is so sad and very tragic in all ways.
And you know, again, look at it from the perspective
that you want. You'll find your tribe absolutely will support
your opinion, and let's do that. But in the end,
you know, people are not here anymore. And and yet
at the same time I have said this and I
will I know, I keep saying, well, I ended on this.
I would say to somebody, I'm not sure that anybody
in those situations would have done anything different. And I
know that people will go, well, how can you say that,
I go, I've never been in a situation where my
job is to de escalate something and somebody in a
scrum screams gun gun, gun to a you know, alert,
and it happens to me and the guy's waistband allegedly
or whatever, and it's not out and being displayed. But
I don't know what that's like, and I don't know
what that means. And I know I'm sorry that it
even came to that point.
Speaker 2: I gotcha.
Speaker 3: But the fact is, in those moments, I believe the
one commonality is fear on both sides, absolutely right. And
and so you know a car's coming at me. We
can see from all angles, maybe it wasn't. That person
in the car was scared and trying to leave and
didn't even take their partner with them, So we have
fear there. And then the other person has a history
of something happening to them before with an automobile in
a situation similar pulls a trigger right, and I go,
would you do anything differently?
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 5: And that's that's what's hard, because.
Speaker 3: I think people get angry when I say things like that,
because I'm you're defending. I don't know that I'm defending.
I'm just saying, what can we try to slip back
from the emotion just a little bit. Let's take that
beat and look at it and try to say, tragic situation.
I wish it never happened. I wish we never got
to this point.
Speaker 2: We're here now. You know.
Speaker 3: I often say things like, I'm living the life, not
the life I planned. What, it's the life I'm in.
So what am I gonna do?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 5: And it's uh, it's tragic, worst day for everybody around.
Speaker 4: And you hit it on the head.
Speaker 2: The fear.
Speaker 4: There's there's fear.
Speaker 2: You know, you're you're.
Speaker 5: Responding to a school shooting. Fuck, and that that's the
worst possible scenario. God, you know, you're thinking of all
the things that could happen and what's going on. You
gotta save those kids. But then in the back of.
Speaker 4: Your mind too, you're thinking, oh my god, what's the media.
Speaker 2: Going to say?
Speaker 5: And if if I do X and Y, how's that
going to be portrayed? Even if I'm trying to do
the right thing, there it's gonna go. And that all
gets into your head.
Speaker 2: You know what drives me, that's no situations. This is
the man.
Speaker 5: All the parents that show up, and that's part of it.
I'm sorry, having a plan for no like all the.
Speaker 2: Parents that show up.
Speaker 3: And I understand and I will tell you many many,
many years ago. Now, a drug deal gombad people out
of New York City came up and they grabbed a
father and a daughter and they were the wrong people.
So they picked them up in Greece, dropped them off
in the city. Now police are called, there's a chase,
the sheriff's departments involved, and these guys are flying to
get out of town and back to the Thruway, and
they're in a chase and they pull off at the
exit that I live off of, and they come screaming
up the street I live on.
Speaker 2: I mean they're flying.
Speaker 3: And now it's like officers are everywhere, right, guys ditch
a car and there's an elementary school and the gym
teacher had the schools aren't air conditioned here for most
of them, aren't. I think some are trying to do
that now because it seems to be getting a little
warmer in May. The offices usually are yes and yes
they are, or even if it's just a window on,
but you're right. So the guy has the door propped
open because the gym gets hot and their little kids
and they're hot and sweaty and smelly, and a guy
walks in and says hey, and the gym teacher immediately
says to the guy, how can I help you?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 3: And he could see that the guy's I'm not going
to say, in an agitated state, but he's in an
elevated state.
Speaker 2: He's being chased, right, he's amped up. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Guy walks and says, all right. Uh, he goes, can
you call me a cap. I'm looking for a cap
I need to get I need out of my car
broke down.
Speaker 2: Whatever.
Speaker 3: The guy says, so they bring him up. Well, now
the swat team and everybody's there and they don't know
what's going on, Like, no one knows what the person
who has now walked into the school was involved in
a high speed chase.
Speaker 2: There were three guys in the car. They don't know
where the other two are.
Speaker 3: And the swat team shows up and it's in a
more affluent area of our town is Pittsford, and so
they climb up. They're in trees, they've got the guns
that are all pointed. They don't know what's coming understood.
The neighborhood is buzzing, and we're seeing all the officers around.
And I had built a sunroom that faced the street
that the high speed chase is on. I'm just sitting
there and I'm watching them.
Speaker 2: And I'm here, what's going on? What's going on?
Speaker 3: So I call somebody I know who works in television news.
They give me what they know, and all of a sudden,
I'm hearing some chatter and a bunch of the moms
are going to walk up to the school and I go,
don't do that, And I'm told why not? And I go,
because you're a cholesterol. I go, you know what cholesterol does.
It gets in the way, it blocks stuff. I go,
these guys are trained. I go, yeah, but I don't
want to. I go making a bit. Okay, we want
to make it less on the kids. Let's not make
it a big deal.
Speaker 2: You know what I mean. Well, I got it. But
to have this, oh my god, I'm so happy, Johnny.
Speaker 3: It like only elevates the kid a little bit. In
a situation where they didn't know. My middle son, who's
now twenty four, was in second grade and the teacher.
I saw her because I went and got pizza, and
we're having kind of a block party after that, which
was great for me. I got to drink one of
the neighbors and that was fine, but everybody was very heightened.
And I ran into her and she said to me,
oh my god. I looked out and I see, you know,
assault rifles basically pointed at the doors, and she said,
So I got the kids on the ground, I turn
off the lights, I lowered the sh shades, and I
read to them and then she started crying. And so
I'm giving the second grade teacher a hug and all
this stuff. And I was like, that's a great way
to handle it. But all the parents that get up there,
what are you gonna do?
Speaker 2: What are you gonna do? Nothing? Is what I'm saying.
Speaker 4: I mean, you're gonna take away reasons.
Speaker 2: Even if you say to me, I have a gun. Okay,
have you been in this situation like this? How when
was the last time you went to the range?
Speaker 3: Because I guarantee, and I know it sounds kind of shitty,
And at the time, I was married, and it became
kind of a bonus contention that I had this opinion.
Speaker 2: But I do. I go. They're the ones there.
Speaker 3: I My job is afterwards we can talk about it,
try to what's the process it?
Speaker 2: I got that, But in the moment, I'm not the guy.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's it's definitely hard, right.
Speaker 5: I see both sides. I see the stress. I see
the you know, need to take care of and you know,
protect your child. But I also see the operation side
of it, where now you're cholesterol that the cholesterol you
get away.
Speaker 4: You're going to take away resources from what we're doing.
Speaker 3: To tell missus Jones, shut your mouth.
Speaker 2: They can't hear us inside. You know, we're trying to
talk this.
Speaker 5: Guy down, and you know, I'll give you A perfect
example is one of the worst case scenarios is an
off duty officer because I'm a cop, I trained, I
know how to do this. I got my gun, my
kids in there, I'm in my Bahama shorts and my
tank top. And here's the thing that people don't think
about is we don't know all the time what's going on.
So we see, we're high stressed, we're trying to figure
all this out, and then there's a person with a
gun in somewhere where we know there's a person with
a gun trying to hurt people.
Speaker 4: That's just setting the tone for bad.
Speaker 2: Okay, no, it's a movie, yep.
Speaker 4: So just you know you can come there. That's where
we've gotten a lot.
Speaker 5: Better at having you know, uh, staging aaaging areas and
I don't even connect people, you know. And then you
could say, there, we'll get you as much information as
we can while we can and all that, but it's
it's keeping people out of trying to get into this
and adding to it, right, you're adding either more victims
or more hostages like that doesn't help anybody.
Speaker 3: No, Yeah, and it's like you're you literally are I
have no other way to say, you're cholesterol.
Speaker 2: That's just it. Let's not be cholesterol.
Speaker 4: And that's where I always tell people.
Speaker 5: Our job is we are the calm, yes and the
crazy in the hectic. It's our job to be the
calm in the rational. It's hard sometimes, but that's our job.
And my job has also help you be a little
more calm. And I do that by staying calm.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, you don't mirror me. What a good way
to add that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was a good very nice Deputy Hurly. Thank
you for your time. I appreciate it. I love conversations
like this because it's not just about the police and crimes,
but more about humanity. And I think there's some value
in what you've said for anybody who's a parent or
just walking through the world, right give them a little something.
Speaker 4: Thanks you so always a pleasure.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you, nice to see you again. I'm Bill Moran.
We'll see you tomorrow. See if they were looking for
a candle Nutana see please