Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.
Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,
and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my
experience as the brother of a murder victim to help
other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book
on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co
administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with
Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate,
as well as the social media manager and co administrator
for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner
in crime, Bill Thomas.
Speaker 3: Welcome to Mind Over Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 2: And I'm Bill Thomas, and we're.
Speaker 3: Joined today by journalist and podcaster Courtney Stewart, here to
answer all of our questions about the Shenandoah murders and
the mysterious death of Darrell David Rice. Courtney, thank you
for joining us today.
Speaker 5: Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2: For those of our listeners that might not live in
or near Charlottesville, Virginia, tell us a little bit about
yourself to start off with. Let's assume that we have
people from all over the world, which we do, and
they might not listen to you unless they listen online.
So tell us about Courtney Stewart.
Speaker 5: I have been a journalist working in Charlottesville since the
late nineteen nineties, and I have worked for a number
of different outlets, including newspapers. I was a television reporter
for CBS nineteen and I currently host a radio show
called Charlottesville Right Now on wi Anda and so I
cover all kinds of issues, but I have over the
years specifically focused on criminal justice, but also unsolved murders,
and some of them happened while I was reporting, so
from the time it first happens through years of a
case not being solved. I also did a podcast called
Small Town, Big Crime. I have a colleague on that,
Rachel Ryan. That was a deep dive that we did
over a number of years into the claims by Yen
Soaring that he was an innocent man. He was convicted
of first degree murders of his girlfriends his then girlfriend's parents.
They were UVA students, he and Elizabeth Haysom, and so
small Town Big Prime Yen swering in the Hasa Murders
is available on all platforms, and then that also got
wrapped into a Netflix special called to Murder Do Us
Part Soaring Versus Haysim. That's my most recent investigative reporting
that people might have seen.
Speaker 3: You have just one heck of a resume here, Courtney,
and you've worked in a number of different mediums. He
worked for the weekly alternative newspaper The Hook, that you
worked as a television reporter, a talk radio host, now podcast.
Which of these is your favorite medium? Or should we
not even be making you choose?
Speaker 5: I think that each medium has real strengths, and I've
learned a lot about storytelling, and I think each one
brings a unique aspect. My passion is for deep investigative reporting,
and print was where I learned to do that, and
at The Hook newspaper, I had an opportunity that I
I think was really just an incredible chance for journalists
to be able to do reporting of that nature a
week after week for close to twelve years. And after
that I went to TV, where it's a faster turns,
it's a daily kind of thing. I could get into depth,
but just I'd have to do it day by day,
and so it wasn't the same, but I learned visual storytelling,
and so podcasting was thrilling to me because it is
essentially the same thing as the long form print reporting
in that you can go so in depth and that's
where the audience for this kind of long form content is.
And also to a degree, I think docuseries also as
a way, so there was a lot of talk. I
know for a while as print as newsrooms were shrinking
that people just don't have the bandwidth, they don't want
long form journalism, And it turns out it's just the
medium and how people are taking in long form content
that is changed.
Speaker 2: I've likened podcasting and perhaps the kind of podcasting that
Kristin and I do to talk radio. But you actually
now in the last couple of years, have been hosting
a daily show on Charlottesville's talk talk radio station. What's
that like?
Speaker 5: I love it. I absolutely love it. It's fast paced,
it's not of course, it's not all true crime focused,
although because that is one of my interests, I certainly
cover criminal justice matters, not only cold cases, but also
criminal justice sort of system issues, so prison issues, all
kinds of things. I love the chance to talk to
people about all different kinds of things, and I can
do breaking news if something happens one morning, I can
try to line up a guest and have it be
very timely. If I want to go in more depth,
I can extend an interview over a number of segments,
so I can have a longer conversation. So in that way,
it is like podcasting in the sort of interview format.
The podcast I did was a scripted, serialized podcast, so
it was one case that we investigated. Each episode was
written and then tracked, so it's a different format. And
I think that's cool about podcasting too, is that you
can have these different format that allow for different types
of content.
Speaker 3: How well the world do you get all of this
work done? I can't imagine being as busy as you are.
We're busy people, but you're definitely taking the metal on
busiest persons. How do you sleep not very much yesterday?
Speaker 5: I don't know. Sometimes I love this work and I
love doing it, and I'm also always trying to find
out how I can keep doing it. And so that's
part of the reason that I've been like swimming through
all these mediums is if I see that maybe this
opportunity is narrowing. I want to find the next opening,
and I want to keep building on my skills, and
I just I really journalism is my passion, you know.
I think it's so important. Cold cases and investigating cases
is something that is really really important to me because
I have seen the impact not only of the loss
that people experience in a crime, but then the ongoing
impact of not knowing and just never being able to
I think closure is the wrong word, but never being
able to have answers that you need, and having just
this shadow in your life for years and years, and
so feeling like those people know that somebody hasn't forgotten,
somebody cared, somebody is still trying to get answers because
sometimes law enforcement drops off they don't have anything else
to report. And in that place, like advocates and journalists
are the ones who can continue keeping a case alive.
And so I'm really motivated by that, And in that way,
I don't mind that I kind of work all the time.
Speaker 2: For the record. We were messaging back and forth Kristin
Courtney and Bill just to confirm today's conversation, and I
noticed I think you texted me at four forty nine am,
and you're not normally going to get a text. You
might get a text out of Kristen.
Speaker 5: Really, I didn't wake you up.
Speaker 2: No, No, you might get a text out of Kristin
that early, but you're not going to get one out
of me at four forty nine. Well you really?
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's usually when I'm up for school.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I am an early. I go to the gym.
If I go to a five thirty class, usually my
workout friends are going to be like, but you haven't
been there if they hear this, So I take credit
for doing it all the time. But that is the
time I try to go to the gym, and I
am an early. I just love getting up. I have
people be like are you up or are you still up?
Speaker 2: Which one is did you ever go to sleep? Kind
of thing?
Speaker 5: Yeah, no, I do go to sleep, and I actually
go to sleep pretty early, like I'm usually just starting
to collapse by like nine. But I love early mornings.
I'm like at my most energetic, which is probably super
annoying for a lot of people, but.
Speaker 1: You do.
Speaker 2: Larks, as they're referred to, there are owls, which is me,
and there are larks, which is the two of you.
Speaker 3: Actually, Bill, I'm not a lark or an owl. I'm
just a permanently exhausted pigeon. Okay, you get up.
Speaker 5: To go to school without what you said or what's this?
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I do teach full time. Obviously, I'm on
summer break right now, and because i live half an
hour away from my school, and I commute if I
want to be there on time, and I always get
there early because I'm that kind of person. I'm up
by four thirty in the morning. And I hate everything
about it, but it is what it is.
Speaker 5: I think I got into it because I had kids
and I was just like, oh my gosh, it's dark
and quiet and I'm alone, and that was just my time.
And then it just stuck because they're out of the
house now and I'm still doing it. I've got two sons,
but they're in they're both in their early actually in
their twenties. One's about to turn twenty five and one
is twenty one.
Speaker 2: Uh huh. You were a child bride because the math
I was in elementary school.
Speaker 3: I want to get into the news. Of course, it's
been on everybody's mind for the last couple of weeks
since this case broke. You've been following the Julie Williams
Lowlly Winan's murder in the Shenandoah National Park and the
Route twenty nine stocker case since the beginning. Why do
you think that those cases went unsolved for so long.
Speaker 5: I was not actively covering those cases from the beginning.
I became aware of them probably almost immediately upon arriving
to Charlottesville in nineteen ninety seven, and then I got
my first full time journalism job, actually at Seville Weekly
in nine eight, so they were still relatively new, and
it was a big deal. Both the murders and Julie
and Lallie were both almost exactly the same age as
I am, or they would be. It was a case
that just stood out to me because these were my peers,
These were people exactly my age, and this was just
so horrifying, and this was a place that I had
been Over the years. I read other people's reporting. I
didn't do really my own reporting on it until Darryl
Rice was released from prison two thousand and seven and
he went back to Maryland and the uproar that came up.
So that's when I guess that's when I, as a
reporter got involved at all in covering the case. It's
hard to know why it took so long. I think
the revelation through DNA, a DNA match that is this
guy Walter Leo Jackson suggests that this is it was
just so random, you know. I mean, I still don't
understand how they know that he came to the park.
Why they said he was known to come to the park.
They didn't give that information when they announced the DNA match.
So I have so many questions that I think might
help shed light on how he slipped past authority's notice
for so long. And then of course there's the questions
of there is the question and probably many questions around
the targeting of Daryl Rice that went on for so long.
And I think it's understandable that he was a suspect
after what happened in the park in ninety seven with
yvon Malbasha, But it seems in hindsight that there's a
lot that could have and maybe should have probably should
have eliminated him. There are also things that I have
read that I would like to try to get to
the bottom of that helped me understand a little bit.
For that why investigators would have found him so interesting.
I just don't know about the extent or the time,
and I also do not understand exactly what was tested,
what led to the DNA match, and how early that
testing could have been done. So those are some of
my thoughts.
Speaker 2: I think the FBI and the National Park Service and
the Virginia State Police are trying to head off criticism
in both the Colonial Parkway murders case with the January
press conference earlier this year, and with the Shenandoah National
Park murders of Julie Williams and Lolly Winans. You're not
the only journalist we've talked to in the past few
months who has said they cannot get any further information.
It's very frustrating. I think they owe the American public
a better explanation than they're currently giving us in both
the Colonial Parkway murders and perhaps even worse in the
Shenandoah National Park murders. What's your take on that.
Speaker 5: So A, let's just talk. We could go back to
the January eighth press announcement of Alan Wade Wilmer Senior
in the Colonial Parkway murders, but the June press conference
is the one that I listened in on, and from
the moment it was announced, I thought it was unusual
and questionable because as members of the press, we got
this press release saying it was like, in two hours,
there will be an announcement, a significant announcement in this
nearly thirty year old case, right, a huge profile, and
this like nothing announcement slips into our inboxes two hours before,
and it actually appears to be an audio only press conference.
That's how it's framed. And obviously cameras did end up going,
but it wasn't even clear where it was happening, how
it was happening. I've never seen a major announcement handled
like that. I'm used to standing probably in the federal
courthouse in a press room with evidence being shown like
a proud display. And then we did this, and then
we did this, and it just didn't happen like that.
It was bizarre, and I find that really bizarre. Like,
for instance, they say the new DNA testing has allowed
us to now definitively say that Lollie and Julie were
sexually assaulted. Okay, how what what did you collect? Something
out to I don't want to be graphic, but was
there evidence collected from inside their bodies? What was the evidence?
How can DNA evidence being developed prove that it is
that sexual assault has taken place if you didn't have
the evidence before, because that's not been something that was claimed.
So that's just one of the questions that I have.
I also have questions about when and what evidence was tested?
How early could this have been done? Why did this
take so long? I know the funding they cited the SAKE,
which is a sexual assault kit initiative. That is, it's
federal funds, but it's administered through the Virginia Attorney General's office.
And so he sent out a press release after that
making sure his office got credit for being part of
closing these two bringing new new information. I guess the
Colonial Parkway murders have not been closed because some of
them are there is no match. But there are many questions,
and I think that the way it was announced leaves
me really wondering, just like you, about why and why
they don't want to answer more questions because it's something
they've just done, something that you would think they should
be proud of. They've just solved the case.
Speaker 3: And yeah, friend Kate Miles, who wrote the book trailed
about Julian Lawley's case. She came on our podcast right
afterward and she said that she really wanted to see
the FBI show their work. And I really like that term,
not only because I'm a teacher, but also because it
just makes sense. Kate had pointed out that when the
Golden State killer case broke, they were more than happy
to stand up there, like you said, We've got charts,
we've got graphs. We'd like to tell you all of
the things that we did. Look at our awesome work
that didn't happen here, And I really do have to wonder,
why are you not willing to show what you did?
Show your work?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I have read Kate's book. I have not met her,
but she clearly knows so much about this case. And
I totally agree with her about how your work. I
think that's a really good way to put it. And
I think in other cases, when they have done something,
they have shown so much more. And so the absence
of that kind of showing your work that leads to
questions about what are you hiding? What is the good?
Is there's something you're hiding. I'm not I don't know
that they're hiding something. But when you do something in
this kind of weird, shady way and you're not forthcoming
about the details that people legitimately want to know, you
ask for questions to be raised. It just yeah, it's
really hard to understand.
Speaker 2: One of the things that really jumps out at me,
Courtney is that your complaints from a moment ago as
a journalist about two hours notice and an unclear press
release and not specifying who was welcome where this press
conference would actually take place. First of all, I'm just
going to say it. All of this stuff is being
done by the FBI deliberately. They did it in the
Colonial Parkway murders announcement, and then they did it again
in the Shenandoah Park murders announcement. There's a pattern here
that's very unfortunate. As someone who was really pulling for
law enforcement and their success in these cases, Kristin and
I and the families, we are still looking for answers
in the Colonial Parkway murders and other unsolved murders. To
see this pattern where press conferences are announced on almost
no notice and as you said, thirty year old events.
A lot of work went into getting us to where
we are today and actually the news is positive and exciting,
and the FBI, the National Park Service, and the Virginia
State Police should be proud to let the people of
Virginia and across the country and around the world that
have been following these cases, let us know how you
solve this case. I don't know why there's this failure,
Kate puts it. Show your work, take pride in your work.
Good hard work went into these cases. What's up with
all the secrecy?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I can't. As a journalist, I can't say I
know what's up with all the secrecy. I certainly feel it.
And just to go back to that press conference of
the two hours, notice the impact of that. It doesn't
matter as much for me as a radio reporter now
who has a show, because audio is all I need.
But it doesn't give television crews a chance to go
get set up. It doesn't give reporters from larger outlets
from out of the area who would want to have
somebody come in for the announcement. It doesn't give them
time to do that. And when you were talking about
small markets, you're talking about young reporters who are early
in their careers who don't have the historical memory of
these cases, so it doesn't give them time to even
get up to speed to do the kind of in
depth reporting that you want them to do.
Speaker 2: I received from an anonymous source inside the investigation. I'm
going to rough out the quote so that I'm not
outing anyone. This is obviously someone inside law enforcement who said,
we did this deliberately. The scheduling of the press conferences
at the last minute is done deliberately. They actually said
they don't want the most experienced reporters to come and
cover the case, and the people with the history in
some cases stretching back over thirty years, they actually don't
want those reporters. So they want and I'm not taking
anything away from new reporters, but they want the staff
reporter who's on duty that day to be assigned the case.
What a television reporter colleague of yours said to me
was they know good and goddamn well that the top
reporters talk to their news directors or their editors each
morning and get their assignments, and so they know what
story they're going to be going out and covering, and
whether they're meeting up with technical personnel, camera, audio, whatever,
and they are usually well on their way to covering
stories in the morning that will be broadcast later on
during the radio or television day, whatever it is. They
did this deliberately, and they admitted it privately and anonymously.
They did this deliberately in both of these cases so
that the top reporters wouldn't be able to cover the story.
It's being done flat out to manipulate the process.
Speaker 5: And again that is something somebody said to you. I
don't doubt it, but just since since I don't have
that firsthand information, I just I can see that something
is strange about it. I agree that the dynamic that
is the dynamic it creates. Newsrooms are used to responding
to breaking news situations, so somebody who's on their way
to one story can easily be detoured or called off.
But it makes it since they didn't even say they
said it was a major development, it does make it
less likely. And if somebody's too far away, they can't
get there, and I just and then they aren't offering
follow ups, right, So it's not we know this was
hastily announced and this didn't need to be that kind
of breaking news stories. I think the evidence of what
you're saying first. Even from the outside without having the
firsthand knowledge, I can see that is the dynamic that's created.
And it's concerning because there are such problems that are
a parent in both of these investigations, from Wilmer having
been an early suspect that they let slip away to
having chased the wrong guy for decades in the Shenandoah
Park case, it's not hard to see the things that
they don't want to be asked about.
Speaker 3: Now, sixteen days after the press conference on the solve
and the Julie Williams Slollywantans murders, we get the absolutely
bizarre news that Darryl David Rice had died in a
cycling accident that blew my mind. And your reporting was
the first reporting that I saw on it. What was
your response when you first got that news? And my
job hit the floor when I went to reporting, what
was yours? Whoa?
Speaker 5: It was just that it was like oh like just
a oh my, oh my god, like how can is
this true? And in fact I didn't report it until
I confirmed. I was like, okay, what if it's not.
This is just too much, it's too much, and I
had heard it, so I waited until I got the
sheriff on the phone and I got the date of
birth of the Darryl Rice who died, at least just
to make sure that I wasn't going to report something
this stunning without having confirmed it, because it's just unbelievable.
And then that he's what is he doing. He's riding
at night through Missouri, you know, some rural route. It's
not clear where he's been. It's heartbreaking. I think this
was not my reporting, but someone else is that. He
may not have even known that he had been exonerated.
I don't know, and I don't know if that answer
is known yet, if anybody had talked to him and
could confirm, because that's just heartbreaking. If that's the case
that he I don't know what his I don't know
what his living conditions were. I know that he had
been chased away from lots of places. His sister issued
just a scathing statement about the effect of the reporting
on his life, what had happened to him in the
aftermath of this, and that was before he died. I
haven't seen her, I haven't seen any comments from her since,
but just incredible, and not in a good way. Just
unbelievable that this happened so soon.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't have any update there either, But when
we talked to the people from the Innocence Project, they
were not certain. He is a guy who had essentially
moved off the grid. And I know people use that
expression all the time, but this is a guy without
a phone, without a computer. If you think about it,
think about the way we communicate now, even just the
three of us setting up this conversation. If you don't
have a phone and you don't have a computer, you've
really made yourself hard to reach. He did that, I think,
to protect himself from further harassment. One thing I can't
get over is his last known address was outside Durango, Colorado.
And I checked the map, and he's struck and killed
by a car on a rural highway in central Missouri.
It's eleven hundred miles away from his last known address.
His family and the Innocence Project attorneys who worked with
him for years, had funded a previous ride across the country,
where he rode from Colorado, where he was living at
that time, to Maryland, where he had family. He wasn't
able to do that without some financial assistance. He didn't
have enough money for food or spare tubes for his bicycle.
He would have had the physical strength, I think, to
make that ride. But I want to take a small comfort.
I don't know this man, and I'm actually not crazy
about Daryl Rice and what I've read of his history.
Speaker 5: He doesn't yeah, and his history, Yeah, his history, it's
not He's not sweaky clean.
Speaker 2: He didn't kill Julian Lawley, though, and he had a
lot of issues, and I think he had a lot
of serious mental health issues. Part of me just wants
to take some small comfort in the idea. And it's
just a thought that he somehow found out that he
had been exonerated, and then he made a decision to
write across the country to return the sea family or whatever.
Because I can't figure out what the heck he's doing
in central Missouri.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't know. I think that's a question. When's
the last time that anybody had contact with him? His sister,
his family, Deirdre Enright, his longtime advocate, She said, I
think at the press conference that she had with his attorney,
his Capital defense attorney, she said that they had not
spoken to him since this news had broken, and this
was days later that press. Her press conference was on
a Monday, and the announcement I believe of the DNA
matches on a Thursday, so over over the weekend, and
you would they certainly would have been desperately trying to
reach him. That would have been unless they were able
to reach him at some point in the next two weeks. Right,
that was the only time. It was fifteen days later,
fifteen days from announcement to his death.
Speaker 2: You're listening to mindover Murder. We'll be right back after
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back to Mind over Murder.
Speaker 3: The announcement of the resolve in the Shenandoah case did
make national headlines, but Darryl's death did not receive any
national media attention, or enough national media attention. I think,
why do you think that might be?
Speaker 5: I don't remember who there was. Okay, this came to
my attention, not through any sort of press release. This
came to my attention when somebody sent me a link
to a story about this bicycle fatality that didn't even
mention anything about his longtime position as a suspect in
this case. It was just like fifth I don't know
how old he was, but it's Daryl Rice. Darryl d
Rice was struck and killed. It was just like a
bicycle fatality news story, like a nothing little story in
some Missouri paper. And so that's when I called. But
I think if nobody sends out a press release and
nobody in the newsrooms. I did my story for w
and I put that online, and I know there was
reporting in the Daily Progress about it, and there may
have been some other but I just it's shocking that
wasn't because it is just irony, a coincidence. I don't
know what the right word is, but the tragedy of
it certainly elevates it to national news audience.
Speaker 3: It feels like Greek tragedy, I think, is what I
told Bill when it happened. I really feel awful for
the guy. Like Bill said, I'm not a fan of his,
but he certainly didn't deserve what he got from the FBI,
and he definitely did not deserve to die this way.
I feel really awful for him for that reason.
Speaker 5: The description of that afternoon when I got this, I
read this news story and I thought, I have to
confirm that it's him before I can report it. And
I talked to the sheriff and he had seen him
earlier that day at a store, and I was like,
how do you remember something like that? And he said,
this is just a tiny town and everybody knows everybody,
and so when somebody is a stranger, they stick out.
And I saw this old guy on a bike, and
I said, can I send you a picture of him
so you can can firm his identity. That was the
first way, and I sent it. That does not look
like the guy I saw. Granted this was an older picture,
but he and the deputies all said that this person
looked significantly older. Like they were describing him as an
old guy and he's in his fifty Yeah, I don't
know what had happened to him, where he'd been, or
where he was going. It sounds like he's heading west,
so probably to Colorado.
Speaker 2: So much about this story and then back to the
press conference from the Colonial Parkway murders. So much of
this just doesn't sit right. It doesn't feel right. I
said to Kristen recently. One of the things I'm very
disturbed about is all of the suspects that are being
identified are all conveniently dead. And now Darrell David Rice,
a long time suspect, has ended up conveniently dead. And
I'm not a conspiracy theorist at all. I find it
very odd that none of these suspects are being identified
when they're alive. The prosecutors are saying very confidently from
the front of the room, this person would be brought
up on murder charges if they were alive, but they
don't have to bother going through that whole process because
they're only identifying people after their deaths, and especially when
we've seen for decades in both the Colonial Parkway murders
and the Shenandoah Park murders. This bizarre foot dragging by
law enforcement. What are they waiting for? Are they waiting
for these people to die? And then suddenly they're going
to go up front and say we got them? We didn't,
did we?
Speaker 5: I think that's where the show your work comes in,
because we need those answers. You're left to speculate, and
even people who are not conspiracy minded are left with
a set of facts that they are really unsatisfied. They're
unsatisfactory because you can't go ask the people who have
been matched by DNA. You can't see any of the
evidence that they tested or their work, the method that
they use to identify these people. Now you can't talk
to Darryl Rice. I will say. What the sheriff told
me about about that case is that the department had
received calls about somebody in a way that drivers were
very concerned about, and so they were actually headed out
because there was a bicyclist riding in the middle of
the road or something like that. That's what he said
to me. I would want to get more details from
the deputies who actually were going to the scene, because
what he was telling me was probably secondhand. This is
what his deputies had told him, and it was soon after.
I think I was the first reporter to talk to him.
But there was definitely something alarming to other people about
the way he was riding and the time of night
and the fact that he was not visible. And then
I think if the deputies may have even been almost
unseen and they saw him be struck. I don't know
the circumstances around that. It sounds like just tragic, a
tragic accident.
Speaker 2: There's something I would very much like to see, and
the sheriff should be able to provide this. I'd like
to see photographs of the bicycle. I'm not asking to
see photographs of some poor man that's been hit by
a car, and I can imagine that's not something most
of us would want to see. But as someone, as
a younger man who did a fair amount of long
distance cycling, I know what a bike that's been set
up or long rides, and the kind of pigneres and
packs and things like that. Even somebody traveling on the
down and dirty would have likely a sleeping bag and
some small degree of equipment with them, some tools, a
couple of spare tubes, that sort of thing. I'd really
like to see photographs of Rice's bicycle and see is
this bicycle even capable of being ridden eleven hundred miles,
whether it's eastbound or westbound, I don't know. He's a
thousand miles away from his last known address. I'd like
to see that bike and just get a sense. Would
this bike have even taken him from point A to
point B?
Speaker 5: Yeah? I think that's an interesting question. Something can be
very interesting to see that and also interesting to see
if there's been any more information found out about where
he had stayed last, when he was last in Colorado,
when he was last in Virginia, what was the last
conversation people had with him? Yeah, I don't, I have
not I don't know the answers to those things.
Speaker 3: Before we leave Daryl David Rice behind, I did want
to ask one final question about a recent piece of
reporting that you did. You interviewed the retired forensic psychologist
je Fratcher on Charlottesville right now about his examination of
Darryl Rice. What did he happen to say about Darryl
David Rice and his thoughts on whether or not he
was capable of committing the Shenandoah murders.
Speaker 5: So he said he interviewed Darryl Rice as I guess
he was hired by the defense, by Darryl Rice's defense
attorney after the attack on Yvonne Malbosha, the bicyclist in
the Shenando National Park in ninety seven, and that's what
put him on the radar, of course, as the suspect
in the nineteen ninety six murders. He said he did
not believe that he was capable of murder that he
thought he had. He said he kind of a weird guy,
mental health problems and I think out heavy drug history
of heavy drug use. But he did not see any
signs that this was somebody who would be capable of
a double homicide. There's an assessment, a psychological assessment that
they had available to them in the late nineties. I
also will say I've known Jeff a long time. I
think the world of him. I actually didn't know he'd
done the assessment. I just wanted him to commit as
like a general forensic psychologist to talk about stuff, and
that he's, oh, yeah, I did that assessment. I was like,
so that was great. But he was hired by the defense,
so I don't know that prosecutors would have taken everything
or investigators might have seen him as giving them the
answers that they that the defense wanted, But.
Speaker 2: It was his sincere, thoughtful analysis in his professional opinion,
he did not think that Rice was capable of a
double homicide. It was clear he did understand that Rice
had attacked Yvon Malbosha and that he did have some
very serious issues. So it's not like he's making him
out to be a boy scout.
Speaker 5: No, he's not making him out to be a boy scout.
I think malbosh description of that attack and the way
Darryl Rice's defense team, supporters, advocates have described it, there's
a big difference between those two things. The description the
transcripts that I've seen of her account, it was very frightening.
And then there was this attempt. There was his attempt
to get out of the park chin remove change license plates.
There were disturbing items or potentially disturbing items found in
the truck, I think zip ties, but you could say
maybe he needed them for something else, but these were
I think long enough to be used to tie somebody up. Yeah.
I think that's one of the things that I think
his defense team has really downplayed and like at the
press conference that Monday after the DNA match was announced,
they again really presented that as like he threw a
water bottle, that doesn't make him a killer, but it
really was more than throwing a water bottle. And I
think that for people who are on the other side,
it was like that underplaying that doesn't help either, because
it seems like the reality was it was a terrifying
incident for Yvonne Malbasha and she believed that he intended
to kill her.
Speaker 3: I do have a question about another notorious case in
that area, and that would be the Route twenty nine
stalker case. During the press conference, the FBI released a
seeking information poster about Walter Leo Jackson, and one of
the things that they mentioned was the fact that he
did have access to several vehicles he was known to
alter and change out license tags. Do you think that
was the FBI kind of setting up this idea that
Walter Leo Jackson could be the Route twenty nine stalker
or was that just them presenting information that they had available.
Speaker 5: They then also in that I'm going from memory, but
I believe they said we have no information to suggest
that he was on Route twenty nine or anything like that, right,
So they they specified that they don't have a reason
to suspect him. However, they also didn't manage to link
him to the Shenandoah Park for nearly thirty years. Don't
And I also don't know what DNA testing has been conducted,
for instance, in the Alicia Showalter Reynolds case. Can he
be eliminated from evidence? There is there anything that has
been done that's something I don't know the answer. Maybe
there is an answer. Maybe you guys know the answer.
I don't well off the top of my head, but
I am curious, and I know obviously they have been
doing this intense new round of testing on old cases.
So I wonder if I would think if they're running
if they're running tests on Colonial Parkway and Shenandoah Park,
I would think that they would also be running tests
on Alicia Showalter Renolds.
Speaker 2: We can help, yeah, I'd like to know that, and
we are working on nailing that down. But it's difficult
because law enforcement won't answer questions, which is infuriating. Even
in questions in my own sister's case, they will not
answer questions in a straightforward manner. We are working through
other sources I didn't say something earlier. I hope longtime
listeners of this podcast understand that there are times when
I will pass along information that I've received from people
inside this investmentstigation, and I can't name names because those
sources will completely dry up or get fired for all
I know. I think people understand that when I say
we heard this from sources inside this investigation, there are
one hundred percent clear I don't need to make stuff up.
We're working now to try to find out what is
happening with the rest of this investigation. And the Route
twenty nine stocker case is another example of a case
that really needs a significant reboot. That's a Virginia State
Police case. They've done some really good work. I would
just love for them, as you're saying, Courtney, to be
revisiting this and going back through the evidence, much like
the FBI, the National Park Service, and the Virginia State
Police did recently. Even though we're frustrated, they are solving
cases and identifying suspects, and I have to give them
props for that.
Speaker 5: It's a good thing to have these DNA matches, and
everybody can wish that it happened a long time ago,
but it's better that it happened at all. But there
are these there's still so many questions. You hope they're
doing it, and you also hope that they are revealing
as much information as they can. Everybody understands that investigations
require some level of confidentiality. You don't want to risk
not being able to get the solution in the cases
that they've already closed. With these DNA matches, they're not
providing a good reason why they can't give more information.
Speaker 3: This wasn't originally on my list of questions, but since
I've got you here, I'm going to go ahead and ask. Anyway,
there was some supposition running around a couple of months
back that the suspect in the Gilgo Beach or killing
t Rex Huroorman might potentially be a twenty nine stocking suspect.
What are your thoughts on that? I just have to now.
Speaker 5: I heard the same thing. I was like, Oh my gosh,
I'm trying to remember. Stranger things have happened. Look like
Walter Leo Jackson somehow gets from Cleveland, and his victims
in Cleveland, as far as I know, are like, there
are women that are drug addicted positive in prostitution, and
just so I say that not to judge the victims,
but to say it's not the same mo as going
camping in the park. Right, it's totally women in your
neighborhood that you've seen every day and who are vulnerable
in that way versus the camp. But to the Gilgo
Beach thing, I think it's the timing. And then I
think somewhere somebody said he has a family member who
lives and they said nearby mom, his mom nearby nearby?
Speaker 3: Was like, this area, I know it well enough. They
said that she lived nearby in Orange, but that's not
as nearby.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I was like, I'm as nearby as I would associate
with through twenty nine.
Speaker 5: Ye. Yeah, Because Darryl Rice's father lived within a couple
of miles of where Alicia Showalter Reynold's body was, that's nearby. Right.
That gives you reason to think, Okay, we've got to
at least look at him, because there is this piece
we know he stays within a few miles of this site,
and it gives you something to look at. I don't
know with Gilgo Beach, I don't think anything came of that.
I certainly hope that they I hope they run down
the lead. If he had a pickup truck or he
was known to be driving twenty nine at that time,
it's certainly worth checking. The other weird thing is this question,
and I do you guys know if they have been
able to put Wilmer's DNA through COTIS there was some
kind of reason that they.
Speaker 2: The claim And I am rolling my eyes Hererika and
listeners know this is a hot button for us. The
claim is that under Virginia state policy Commonwealth of Virginia policy,
unless you've been charged with a felony, your DNA cannot
be put into COTIS. And obviously Wilmer's dead and has
been dead since twenty seventeen, so we're not putting his
DNA into COTIS. And at the same time, and I say,
this is gritted teeth. Wilmer's dead, who cares his rights?
Died with him? Where are the families and the victims
in all of this? Why are we so concerned about
respecting Wilmer's rights when the man's been dead for what
seven years?
Speaker 5: That is an idiotic loophole. If there is a law
that says you can't do that when somebody has been
definitively matched by DNA to one murder, they are dead
themselves that you can't put their DNA into the data
bank to sy if you can close other cases. I
can't imagine anyone anywhere on the political spectrum right objecting
to that right. That is, like you said, it's victim first,
and the victims need answers. If the person has been
matched to a brutal homicide, I think they're dead. They're
right to privacy. Of course, you don't want police being
able to plug anybody's DNA into the go hunting for people.
There are problems with that, But under the circumstance if
somebody has been linked to one violent crime and they're deceased,
you tell me. I don't understand what the argument could
possibly be. And if there is a law, I would
think that there's a legislator out there who would love
to close that loophole.
Speaker 2: We're not going to let this one go. We're still
from to find out exactly how this rule works. One
of the things ourn't listeners have been baffled by the
code of system, which is way less than perfect. As
we all know it's set up. It's actually fifty different systems.
The rules are different state to state, and I think
this is insane and needs to be changed. But one
step at a time. Here, Wilmer is a serial killer.
By an FBI official definition, if you're identified to have
killed three or more people in two or more incidents,
you're considered a serial killer. So Wilmer is a serial killer.
And I don't think anybody is going to argue passionately
that his rights are somehow being violated when all we're
trying to do is confirm was he involved in other
unsolved murders and sexual assault? And I don't think that's
an unreasonable thing for us to seek.
Speaker 5: That is something. If there is some argument against putting
his DNA through the system to see if there's a
hit on other cases, I I can't imagine what it
is like anything that makes any sense. I just can't
imagine that.
Speaker 3: Courtney, you're very busy, and I know that you've probably
got a couple of different projects coming up soon. Can
you tell us a little bit about what's next for you?
What should we be looking for?
Speaker 5: Yeah, so I have been as working on all different
kinds of things. So I have my daily radio show.
I also continue to do work with my podcast partner
Rachel Ryan, who I did Small Town, Big Prime with,
and we have spent the last couple of years looking
at a bunch of cold cases because we're really only
interested in working on cases where there's an answer that
people still need or something, and the Shenandoah murders is
one that we were really looking into. Everything changed, as
everybody knows with the DNA match and then the death
of Darryl Rice, but as we've just discussed, we do
still feel like there are incredibly important questions to be answered.
So while it's no longer a cold case and Julian
and Lawley's families have the answer that they need, I
think that there are questions that are still really valid
to be asked. That So that is one of the cases,
and then we have several others that are really heartbreaking
cases from the Charlottesville area that we are continuing to
look into to see if we think we can make
some progress and to do more in depth storytelling.
Speaker 2: So we'll see more episodes of Small Town Big Crime
in the future.
Speaker 5: Not necessarily actually, I'm not sure what form our storytelling
will take, but yes, you will see more storytelling from us.
We are still trying to work out the details of
what that will look like. We started working on a book.
We've done a whole bunch of different things. We've looked
into video storytelling. We have a YouTube channel that is
not at the I would say it's not at the
level of production quality that it would need to be
really to do the kind of work that we want
to do. But like I've worked in all these platforms
and I love storytelling of all forms, and so I
just look for whatever way is going to let me
do the work and let me tell the stories.
Speaker 3: Courtney, thank you so much for joining us today. It's
been a real pleasure and we've loved having you.
Speaker 5: I have loved being here. What a great conversation. Thanks,
Thank you both so much. And Christen, it's really nice
to meet you.
Speaker 3: Finally, Oh, it's great to meet you too. That is
going to do it for this episode of mind Over Murder.
Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time.
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and
Another Dog Productions.
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.
Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.
Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud.
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media.
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Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway
Murders on Facebook.
Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at
Bill Thomas. Five six.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.
Speaker 3: Cont