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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.

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Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,

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and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my

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experience as the brother of a murder victim to help

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other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book

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on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co

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administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with

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Kristin Dilly.

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Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly.

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Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate,

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as well as the social media manager and co administrator

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for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner

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in crime, Bill Thomas.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Mind Over Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Bill Thomas, and we're.

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Speaker 3: Joined today by journalist and podcaster Courtney Stewart, here to

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answer all of our questions about the Shenandoah murders and

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the mysterious death of Darrell David Rice. Courtney, thank you

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for joining us today.

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Speaker 5: Thank you so much for having me.

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Speaker 2: For those of our listeners that might not live in

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or near Charlottesville, Virginia, tell us a little bit about

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yourself to start off with. Let's assume that we have

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people from all over the world, which we do, and

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they might not listen to you unless they listen online.

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So tell us about Courtney Stewart.

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Speaker 5: I have been a journalist working in Charlottesville since the

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late nineteen nineties, and I have worked for a number

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of different outlets, including newspapers. I was a television reporter

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for CBS nineteen and I currently host a radio show

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called Charlottesville Right Now on wi Anda and so I

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cover all kinds of issues, but I have over the

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years specifically focused on criminal justice, but also unsolved murders,

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and some of them happened while I was reporting, so

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from the time it first happens through years of a

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case not being solved. I also did a podcast called

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Small Town, Big Crime. I have a colleague on that,

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Rachel Ryan. That was a deep dive that we did

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over a number of years into the claims by Yen

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Soaring that he was an innocent man. He was convicted

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of first degree murders of his girlfriends his then girlfriend's parents.

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They were UVA students, he and Elizabeth Haysom, and so

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small Town Big Prime Yen swering in the Hasa Murders

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is available on all platforms, and then that also got

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wrapped into a Netflix special called to Murder Do Us

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Part Soaring Versus Haysim. That's my most recent investigative reporting

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that people might have seen.

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Speaker 3: You have just one heck of a resume here, Courtney,

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and you've worked in a number of different mediums. He

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worked for the weekly alternative newspaper The Hook, that you

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worked as a television reporter, a talk radio host, now podcast.

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Which of these is your favorite medium? Or should we

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not even be making you choose?

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Speaker 5: I think that each medium has real strengths, and I've

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learned a lot about storytelling, and I think each one

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brings a unique aspect. My passion is for deep investigative reporting,

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and print was where I learned to do that, and

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at The Hook newspaper, I had an opportunity that I

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I think was really just an incredible chance for journalists

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to be able to do reporting of that nature a

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week after week for close to twelve years. And after

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that I went to TV, where it's a faster turns,

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it's a daily kind of thing. I could get into depth,

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but just I'd have to do it day by day,

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and so it wasn't the same, but I learned visual storytelling,

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and so podcasting was thrilling to me because it is

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essentially the same thing as the long form print reporting

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in that you can go so in depth and that's

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where the audience for this kind of long form content is.

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And also to a degree, I think docuseries also as

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a way, so there was a lot of talk. I

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know for a while as print as newsrooms were shrinking

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that people just don't have the bandwidth, they don't want

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long form journalism, And it turns out it's just the

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medium and how people are taking in long form content

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that is changed.

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Speaker 2: I've likened podcasting and perhaps the kind of podcasting that

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Kristin and I do to talk radio. But you actually

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now in the last couple of years, have been hosting

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a daily show on Charlottesville's talk talk radio station. What's

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that like?

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Speaker 5: I love it. I absolutely love it. It's fast paced,

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it's not of course, it's not all true crime focused,

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although because that is one of my interests, I certainly

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cover criminal justice matters, not only cold cases, but also

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criminal justice sort of system issues, so prison issues, all

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kinds of things. I love the chance to talk to

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people about all different kinds of things, and I can

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do breaking news if something happens one morning, I can

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try to line up a guest and have it be

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very timely. If I want to go in more depth,

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I can extend an interview over a number of segments,

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so I can have a longer conversation. So in that way,

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it is like podcasting in the sort of interview format.

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The podcast I did was a scripted, serialized podcast, so

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it was one case that we investigated. Each episode was

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written and then tracked, so it's a different format. And

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I think that's cool about podcasting too, is that you

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can have these different format that allow for different types

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of content.

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Speaker 3: How well the world do you get all of this

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work done? I can't imagine being as busy as you are.

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We're busy people, but you're definitely taking the metal on

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busiest persons. How do you sleep not very much yesterday?

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Speaker 5: I don't know. Sometimes I love this work and I

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love doing it, and I'm also always trying to find

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out how I can keep doing it. And so that's

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part of the reason that I've been like swimming through

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all these mediums is if I see that maybe this

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opportunity is narrowing. I want to find the next opening,

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and I want to keep building on my skills, and

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I just I really journalism is my passion, you know.

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I think it's so important. Cold cases and investigating cases

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is something that is really really important to me because

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I have seen the impact not only of the loss

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that people experience in a crime, but then the ongoing

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impact of not knowing and just never being able to

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I think closure is the wrong word, but never being

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able to have answers that you need, and having just

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this shadow in your life for years and years, and

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so feeling like those people know that somebody hasn't forgotten,

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somebody cared, somebody is still trying to get answers because

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sometimes law enforcement drops off they don't have anything else

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to report. And in that place, like advocates and journalists

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are the ones who can continue keeping a case alive.

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And so I'm really motivated by that, And in that way,

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I don't mind that I kind of work all the time.

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Speaker 2: For the record. We were messaging back and forth Kristin

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Courtney and Bill just to confirm today's conversation, and I

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noticed I think you texted me at four forty nine am,

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and you're not normally going to get a text. You

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might get a text out of Kristen.

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Speaker 5: Really, I didn't wake you up.

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Speaker 2: No, No, you might get a text out of Kristin

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that early, but you're not going to get one out

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of me at four forty nine. Well you really?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's usually when I'm up for school.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I am an early. I go to the gym.

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If I go to a five thirty class, usually my

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workout friends are going to be like, but you haven't

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been there if they hear this, So I take credit

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for doing it all the time. But that is the

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time I try to go to the gym, and I

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am an early. I just love getting up. I have

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people be like are you up or are you still up?

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Speaker 2: Which one is did you ever go to sleep? Kind

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of thing?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, no, I do go to sleep, and I actually

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go to sleep pretty early, like I'm usually just starting

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to collapse by like nine. But I love early mornings.

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I'm like at my most energetic, which is probably super

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annoying for a lot of people, but.

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Speaker 1: You do.

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Speaker 2: Larks, as they're referred to, there are owls, which is me,

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and there are larks, which is the two of you.

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Speaker 3: Actually, Bill, I'm not a lark or an owl. I'm

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just a permanently exhausted pigeon. Okay, you get up.

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Speaker 5: To go to school without what you said or what's this?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So I do teach full time. Obviously, I'm on

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summer break right now, and because i live half an

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hour away from my school, and I commute if I

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want to be there on time, and I always get

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there early because I'm that kind of person. I'm up

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by four thirty in the morning. And I hate everything

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about it, but it is what it is.

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Speaker 5: I think I got into it because I had kids

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and I was just like, oh my gosh, it's dark

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and quiet and I'm alone, and that was just my time.

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And then it just stuck because they're out of the

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house now and I'm still doing it. I've got two sons,

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but they're in they're both in their early actually in

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their twenties. One's about to turn twenty five and one

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is twenty one.

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Speaker 2: Uh huh. You were a child bride because the math

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I was in elementary school.

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Speaker 3: I want to get into the news. Of course, it's

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been on everybody's mind for the last couple of weeks

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since this case broke. You've been following the Julie Williams

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Lowlly Winan's murder in the Shenandoah National Park and the

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Route twenty nine stocker case since the beginning. Why do

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you think that those cases went unsolved for so long.

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Speaker 5: I was not actively covering those cases from the beginning.

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I became aware of them probably almost immediately upon arriving

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to Charlottesville in nineteen ninety seven, and then I got

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my first full time journalism job, actually at Seville Weekly

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in nine eight, so they were still relatively new, and

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it was a big deal. Both the murders and Julie

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and Lallie were both almost exactly the same age as

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I am, or they would be. It was a case

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that just stood out to me because these were my peers,

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These were people exactly my age, and this was just

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so horrifying, and this was a place that I had

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been Over the years. I read other people's reporting. I

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didn't do really my own reporting on it until Darryl

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Rice was released from prison two thousand and seven and

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he went back to Maryland and the uproar that came up.

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So that's when I guess that's when I, as a

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reporter got involved at all in covering the case. It's

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hard to know why it took so long. I think

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the revelation through DNA, a DNA match that is this

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guy Walter Leo Jackson suggests that this is it was

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just so random, you know. I mean, I still don't

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understand how they know that he came to the park.

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Why they said he was known to come to the park.

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They didn't give that information when they announced the DNA match.

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So I have so many questions that I think might

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help shed light on how he slipped past authority's notice

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for so long. And then of course there's the questions

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of there is the question and probably many questions around

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the targeting of Daryl Rice that went on for so long.

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And I think it's understandable that he was a suspect

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after what happened in the park in ninety seven with

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yvon Malbasha, But it seems in hindsight that there's a

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lot that could have and maybe should have probably should

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have eliminated him. There are also things that I have

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read that I would like to try to get to

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the bottom of that helped me understand a little bit.

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For that why investigators would have found him so interesting.

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I just don't know about the extent or the time,

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and I also do not understand exactly what was tested,

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what led to the DNA match, and how early that

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testing could have been done. So those are some of

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my thoughts.

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Speaker 2: I think the FBI and the National Park Service and

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the Virginia State Police are trying to head off criticism

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in both the Colonial Parkway murders case with the January

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press conference earlier this year, and with the Shenandoah National

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Park murders of Julie Williams and Lolly Winans. You're not

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the only journalist we've talked to in the past few

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months who has said they cannot get any further information.

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It's very frustrating. I think they owe the American public

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a better explanation than they're currently giving us in both

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the Colonial Parkway murders and perhaps even worse in the

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Shenandoah National Park murders. What's your take on that.

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Speaker 5: So A, let's just talk. We could go back to

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the January eighth press announcement of Alan Wade Wilmer Senior

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in the Colonial Parkway murders, but the June press conference

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is the one that I listened in on, and from

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the moment it was announced, I thought it was unusual

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and questionable because as members of the press, we got

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this press release saying it was like, in two hours,

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there will be an announcement, a significant announcement in this

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nearly thirty year old case, right, a huge profile, and

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this like nothing announcement slips into our inboxes two hours before,

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and it actually appears to be an audio only press conference.

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That's how it's framed. And obviously cameras did end up going,

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but it wasn't even clear where it was happening, how

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it was happening. I've never seen a major announcement handled

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like that. I'm used to standing probably in the federal

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courthouse in a press room with evidence being shown like

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a proud display. And then we did this, and then

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we did this, and it just didn't happen like that.

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It was bizarre, and I find that really bizarre. Like,

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for instance, they say the new DNA testing has allowed

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us to now definitively say that Lollie and Julie were

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sexually assaulted. Okay, how what what did you collect? Something

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out to I don't want to be graphic, but was

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there evidence collected from inside their bodies? What was the evidence?

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How can DNA evidence being developed prove that it is

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that sexual assault has taken place if you didn't have

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the evidence before, because that's not been something that was claimed.

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So that's just one of the questions that I have.

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I also have questions about when and what evidence was tested?

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How early could this have been done? Why did this

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take so long? I know the funding they cited the SAKE,

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which is a sexual assault kit initiative. That is, it's

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federal funds, but it's administered through the Virginia Attorney General's office.

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And so he sent out a press release after that

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making sure his office got credit for being part of

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closing these two bringing new new information. I guess the

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Colonial Parkway murders have not been closed because some of

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them are there is no match. But there are many questions,

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and I think that the way it was announced leaves

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me really wondering, just like you, about why and why

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they don't want to answer more questions because it's something

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they've just done, something that you would think they should

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be proud of. They've just solved the case.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, friend Kate Miles, who wrote the book trailed

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about Julian Lawley's case. She came on our podcast right

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afterward and she said that she really wanted to see

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the FBI show their work. And I really like that term,

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not only because I'm a teacher, but also because it

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just makes sense. Kate had pointed out that when the

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Golden State killer case broke, they were more than happy

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to stand up there, like you said, We've got charts,

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we've got graphs. We'd like to tell you all of

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the things that we did. Look at our awesome work

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that didn't happen here, And I really do have to wonder,

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why are you not willing to show what you did?

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Show your work?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I have read Kate's book. I have not met her,

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but she clearly knows so much about this case. And

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I totally agree with her about how your work. I

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think that's a really good way to put it. And

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I think in other cases, when they have done something,

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they have shown so much more. And so the absence

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of that kind of showing your work that leads to

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questions about what are you hiding? What is the good?

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Is there's something you're hiding. I'm not I don't know

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that they're hiding something. But when you do something in

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this kind of weird, shady way and you're not forthcoming

302
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about the details that people legitimately want to know, you

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ask for questions to be raised. It just yeah, it's

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really hard to understand.

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Speaker 2: One of the things that really jumps out at me,

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Courtney is that your complaints from a moment ago as

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a journalist about two hours notice and an unclear press

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release and not specifying who was welcome where this press

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conference would actually take place. First of all, I'm just

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going to say it. All of this stuff is being

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done by the FBI deliberately. They did it in the

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Colonial Parkway murders announcement, and then they did it again

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in the Shenandoah Park murders announcement. There's a pattern here

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that's very unfortunate. As someone who was really pulling for

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law enforcement and their success in these cases, Kristin and

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I and the families, we are still looking for answers

317
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in the Colonial Parkway murders and other unsolved murders. To

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see this pattern where press conferences are announced on almost

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no notice and as you said, thirty year old events.

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A lot of work went into getting us to where

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we are today and actually the news is positive and exciting,

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and the FBI, the National Park Service, and the Virginia

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State Police should be proud to let the people of

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Virginia and across the country and around the world that

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have been following these cases, let us know how you

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solve this case. I don't know why there's this failure,

327
00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:37,679
Kate puts it. Show your work, take pride in your work.

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Good hard work went into these cases. What's up with

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all the secrecy?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I can't. As a journalist, I can't say I

331
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know what's up with all the secrecy. I certainly feel it.

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And just to go back to that press conference of

333
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the two hours, notice the impact of that. It doesn't

334
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matter as much for me as a radio reporter now

335
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who has a show, because audio is all I need.

336
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But it doesn't give television crews a chance to go

337
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get set up. It doesn't give reporters from larger outlets

338
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from out of the area who would want to have

339
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somebody come in for the announcement. It doesn't give them

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time to do that. And when you were talking about

341
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small markets, you're talking about young reporters who are early

342
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in their careers who don't have the historical memory of

343
00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:20,119
these cases, so it doesn't give them time to even

344
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get up to speed to do the kind of in

345
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depth reporting that you want them to do.

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Speaker 2: I received from an anonymous source inside the investigation. I'm

347
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going to rough out the quote so that I'm not

348
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outing anyone. This is obviously someone inside law enforcement who said,

349
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we did this deliberately. The scheduling of the press conferences

350
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at the last minute is done deliberately. They actually said

351
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they don't want the most experienced reporters to come and

352
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cover the case, and the people with the history in

353
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some cases stretching back over thirty years, they actually don't

354
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want those reporters. So they want and I'm not taking

355
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anything away from new reporters, but they want the staff

356
00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:06,200
reporter who's on duty that day to be assigned the case.

357
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What a television reporter colleague of yours said to me

358
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was they know good and goddamn well that the top

359
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reporters talk to their news directors or their editors each

360
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morning and get their assignments, and so they know what

361
00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:23,960
story they're going to be going out and covering, and

362
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whether they're meeting up with technical personnel, camera, audio, whatever,

363
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and they are usually well on their way to covering

364
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stories in the morning that will be broadcast later on

365
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during the radio or television day, whatever it is. They

366
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did this deliberately, and they admitted it privately and anonymously.

367
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They did this deliberately in both of these cases so

368
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that the top reporters wouldn't be able to cover the story.

369
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It's being done flat out to manipulate the process.

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Speaker 5: And again that is something somebody said to you. I

371
00:19:00,279 --> 00:19:02,720
don't doubt it, but just since since I don't have

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that firsthand information, I just I can see that something

373
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is strange about it. I agree that the dynamic that

374
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is the dynamic it creates. Newsrooms are used to responding

375
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to breaking news situations, so somebody who's on their way

376
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to one story can easily be detoured or called off.

377
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But it makes it since they didn't even say they

378
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said it was a major development, it does make it

379
00:19:23,599 --> 00:19:25,680
less likely. And if somebody's too far away, they can't

380
00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:28,960
get there, and I just and then they aren't offering

381
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,240
follow ups, right, So it's not we know this was

382
00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:33,799
hastily announced and this didn't need to be that kind

383
00:19:33,839 --> 00:19:35,559
of breaking news stories. I think the evidence of what

384
00:19:35,599 --> 00:19:37,920
you're saying first. Even from the outside without having the

385
00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:41,200
firsthand knowledge, I can see that is the dynamic that's created.

386
00:19:41,279 --> 00:19:45,240
And it's concerning because there are such problems that are

387
00:19:45,279 --> 00:19:48,839
a parent in both of these investigations, from Wilmer having

388
00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,319
been an early suspect that they let slip away to

389
00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:56,480
having chased the wrong guy for decades in the Shenandoah

390
00:19:56,519 --> 00:19:59,000
Park case, it's not hard to see the things that

391
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they don't want to be asked about.

392
00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:06,440
Speaker 3: Now, sixteen days after the press conference on the solve

393
00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:10,359
and the Julie Williams Slollywantans murders, we get the absolutely

394
00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:15,160
bizarre news that Darryl David Rice had died in a

395
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:19,799
cycling accident that blew my mind. And your reporting was

396
00:20:19,839 --> 00:20:22,559
the first reporting that I saw on it. What was

397
00:20:22,599 --> 00:20:24,799
your response when you first got that news? And my

398
00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:27,359
job hit the floor when I went to reporting, what

399
00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:28,920
was yours? Whoa?

400
00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:32,000
Speaker 5: It was just that it was like oh like just

401
00:20:32,039 --> 00:20:35,079
a oh my, oh my god, like how can is

402
00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:37,759
this true? And in fact I didn't report it until

403
00:20:37,759 --> 00:20:40,279
I confirmed. I was like, okay, what if it's not.

404
00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,319
This is just too much, it's too much, and I

405
00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:46,160
had heard it, so I waited until I got the

406
00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:48,519
sheriff on the phone and I got the date of

407
00:20:48,599 --> 00:20:51,640
birth of the Darryl Rice who died, at least just

408
00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:53,519
to make sure that I wasn't going to report something

409
00:20:53,599 --> 00:20:57,480
this stunning without having confirmed it, because it's just unbelievable.

410
00:20:57,559 --> 00:21:00,480
And then that he's what is he doing. He's riding

411
00:21:00,519 --> 00:21:04,079
at night through Missouri, you know, some rural route. It's

412
00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:07,039
not clear where he's been. It's heartbreaking. I think this

413
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:09,480
was not my reporting, but someone else is that. He

414
00:21:09,559 --> 00:21:12,359
may not have even known that he had been exonerated.

415
00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:14,880
I don't know, and I don't know if that answer

416
00:21:15,079 --> 00:21:17,000
is known yet, if anybody had talked to him and

417
00:21:17,039 --> 00:21:20,480
could confirm, because that's just heartbreaking. If that's the case

418
00:21:20,559 --> 00:21:22,759
that he I don't know what his I don't know

419
00:21:22,799 --> 00:21:25,359
what his living conditions were. I know that he had

420
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:29,039
been chased away from lots of places. His sister issued

421
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:32,559
just a scathing statement about the effect of the reporting

422
00:21:32,839 --> 00:21:34,799
on his life, what had happened to him in the

423
00:21:34,839 --> 00:21:38,000
aftermath of this, and that was before he died. I

424
00:21:38,039 --> 00:21:40,920
haven't seen her, I haven't seen any comments from her since,

425
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:43,759
but just incredible, and not in a good way. Just

426
00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:45,680
unbelievable that this happened so soon.

427
00:21:46,039 --> 00:21:48,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't have any update there either, But when

428
00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,920
we talked to the people from the Innocence Project, they

429
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,400
were not certain. He is a guy who had essentially

430
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:57,640
moved off the grid. And I know people use that

431
00:21:57,680 --> 00:21:59,559
expression all the time, but this is a guy without

432
00:21:59,599 --> 00:22:02,680
a phone, without a computer. If you think about it,

433
00:22:02,839 --> 00:22:05,279
think about the way we communicate now, even just the

434
00:22:05,319 --> 00:22:08,400
three of us setting up this conversation. If you don't

435
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:10,680
have a phone and you don't have a computer, you've

436
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:14,000
really made yourself hard to reach. He did that, I think,

437
00:22:14,039 --> 00:22:17,920
to protect himself from further harassment. One thing I can't

438
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:22,680
get over is his last known address was outside Durango, Colorado.

439
00:22:22,839 --> 00:22:25,480
And I checked the map, and he's struck and killed

440
00:22:25,519 --> 00:22:28,680
by a car on a rural highway in central Missouri.

441
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:34,240
It's eleven hundred miles away from his last known address.

442
00:22:34,759 --> 00:22:38,160
His family and the Innocence Project attorneys who worked with

443
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:42,720
him for years, had funded a previous ride across the country,

444
00:22:42,759 --> 00:22:45,480
where he rode from Colorado, where he was living at

445
00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,640
that time, to Maryland, where he had family. He wasn't

446
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:52,480
able to do that without some financial assistance. He didn't

447
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:55,839
have enough money for food or spare tubes for his bicycle.

448
00:22:56,079 --> 00:22:58,000
He would have had the physical strength, I think, to

449
00:22:58,079 --> 00:23:00,960
make that ride. But I want to take a small comfort.

450
00:23:01,039 --> 00:23:03,279
I don't know this man, and I'm actually not crazy

451
00:23:03,319 --> 00:23:05,480
about Daryl Rice and what I've read of his history.

452
00:23:05,519 --> 00:23:09,160
Speaker 5: He doesn't yeah, and his history, Yeah, his history, it's

453
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:10,440
not He's not sweaky clean.

454
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:14,279
Speaker 2: He didn't kill Julian Lawley, though, and he had a

455
00:23:14,319 --> 00:23:15,720
lot of issues, and I think he had a lot

456
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,240
of serious mental health issues. Part of me just wants

457
00:23:18,279 --> 00:23:21,440
to take some small comfort in the idea. And it's

458
00:23:21,559 --> 00:23:24,240
just a thought that he somehow found out that he

459
00:23:24,279 --> 00:23:26,599
had been exonerated, and then he made a decision to

460
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,519
write across the country to return the sea family or whatever.

461
00:23:29,599 --> 00:23:31,799
Because I can't figure out what the heck he's doing

462
00:23:31,839 --> 00:23:32,839
in central Missouri.

463
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't know. I think that's a question. When's

464
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,359
the last time that anybody had contact with him? His sister,

465
00:23:39,599 --> 00:23:43,759
his family, Deirdre Enright, his longtime advocate, She said, I

466
00:23:43,799 --> 00:23:46,519
think at the press conference that she had with his attorney,

467
00:23:46,799 --> 00:23:50,440
his Capital defense attorney, she said that they had not

468
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,640
spoken to him since this news had broken, and this

469
00:23:53,759 --> 00:23:56,240
was days later that press. Her press conference was on

470
00:23:56,279 --> 00:23:59,440
a Monday, and the announcement I believe of the DNA

471
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,599
matches on a Thursday, so over over the weekend, and

472
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,240
you would they certainly would have been desperately trying to

473
00:24:05,319 --> 00:24:07,920
reach him. That would have been unless they were able

474
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,400
to reach him at some point in the next two weeks. Right,

475
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:12,519
that was the only time. It was fifteen days later,

476
00:24:12,599 --> 00:24:14,440
fifteen days from announcement to his death.

477
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,920
Speaker 2: You're listening to mindover Murder. We'll be right back after

478
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:27,359
this word from our sponsors. We're back here at mindover Murder.

479
00:24:28,519 --> 00:24:30,880
Before we get back to the podcast, just wanted to

480
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,759
remind you that we have a go fundme effort going

481
00:24:33,799 --> 00:24:37,119
on right now. This campaign is designed to help us

482
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:41,640
raise funds to help promote Mind over Murder and specifically

483
00:24:41,839 --> 00:24:46,640
to push the Colonial Parkway murders investigation forward. We'd love

484
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:48,599
it if you could support us in any way that

485
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:52,799
you can. Any donation from five dollars to whatever you

486
00:24:52,839 --> 00:24:56,440
can afford is very much appreciated and will be incredibly helpful.

487
00:24:56,799 --> 00:24:58,839
The link is in the show notes and in our

488
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:04,039
social media pages. As always, thanks for your support. Now

489
00:25:04,079 --> 00:25:05,640
back to Mind over Murder.

490
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:12,480
Speaker 3: The announcement of the resolve in the Shenandoah case did

491
00:25:12,599 --> 00:25:18,279
make national headlines, but Darryl's death did not receive any

492
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,839
national media attention, or enough national media attention. I think,

493
00:25:22,279 --> 00:25:23,279
why do you think that might be?

494
00:25:24,319 --> 00:25:26,559
Speaker 5: I don't remember who there was. Okay, this came to

495
00:25:26,599 --> 00:25:28,559
my attention, not through any sort of press release. This

496
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:31,759
came to my attention when somebody sent me a link

497
00:25:31,799 --> 00:25:35,720
to a story about this bicycle fatality that didn't even

498
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:40,559
mention anything about his longtime position as a suspect in

499
00:25:40,559 --> 00:25:42,160
this case. It was just like fifth I don't know

500
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:44,200
how old he was, but it's Daryl Rice. Darryl d

501
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:46,640
Rice was struck and killed. It was just like a

502
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,519
bicycle fatality news story, like a nothing little story in

503
00:25:50,519 --> 00:25:53,440
some Missouri paper. And so that's when I called. But

504
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,079
I think if nobody sends out a press release and

505
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,920
nobody in the newsrooms. I did my story for w

506
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:02,400
and I put that online, and I know there was

507
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,279
reporting in the Daily Progress about it, and there may

508
00:26:05,319 --> 00:26:08,000
have been some other but I just it's shocking that

509
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,720
wasn't because it is just irony, a coincidence. I don't

510
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:13,960
know what the right word is, but the tragedy of

511
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,720
it certainly elevates it to national news audience.

512
00:26:17,079 --> 00:26:19,400
Speaker 3: It feels like Greek tragedy, I think, is what I

513
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,920
told Bill when it happened. I really feel awful for

514
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,359
the guy. Like Bill said, I'm not a fan of his,

515
00:26:25,559 --> 00:26:29,119
but he certainly didn't deserve what he got from the FBI,

516
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,319
and he definitely did not deserve to die this way.

517
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,000
I feel really awful for him for that reason.

518
00:26:34,039 --> 00:26:37,279
Speaker 5: The description of that afternoon when I got this, I

519
00:26:37,319 --> 00:26:39,440
read this news story and I thought, I have to

520
00:26:39,519 --> 00:26:41,920
confirm that it's him before I can report it. And

521
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,680
I talked to the sheriff and he had seen him

522
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:46,559
earlier that day at a store, and I was like,

523
00:26:46,839 --> 00:26:48,519
how do you remember something like that? And he said,

524
00:26:48,519 --> 00:26:51,279
this is just a tiny town and everybody knows everybody,

525
00:26:51,319 --> 00:26:53,680
and so when somebody is a stranger, they stick out.

526
00:26:53,799 --> 00:26:56,240
And I saw this old guy on a bike, and

527
00:26:56,279 --> 00:26:58,960
I said, can I send you a picture of him

528
00:26:59,319 --> 00:27:01,720
so you can can firm his identity. That was the

529
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:03,799
first way, and I sent it. That does not look

530
00:27:03,839 --> 00:27:07,039
like the guy I saw. Granted this was an older picture,

531
00:27:07,079 --> 00:27:09,240
but he and the deputies all said that this person

532
00:27:09,319 --> 00:27:12,319
looked significantly older. Like they were describing him as an

533
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,480
old guy and he's in his fifty Yeah, I don't

534
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:17,599
know what had happened to him, where he'd been, or

535
00:27:17,759 --> 00:27:20,599
where he was going. It sounds like he's heading west,

536
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:21,880
so probably to Colorado.

537
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 2: So much about this story and then back to the

538
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:29,039
press conference from the Colonial Parkway murders. So much of

539
00:27:29,079 --> 00:27:33,200
this just doesn't sit right. It doesn't feel right. I

540
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,799
said to Kristen recently. One of the things I'm very

541
00:27:35,799 --> 00:27:39,079
disturbed about is all of the suspects that are being

542
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:43,759
identified are all conveniently dead. And now Darrell David Rice,

543
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,480
a long time suspect, has ended up conveniently dead. And

544
00:27:47,799 --> 00:27:51,359
I'm not a conspiracy theorist at all. I find it

545
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,240
very odd that none of these suspects are being identified

546
00:27:55,279 --> 00:27:59,799
when they're alive. The prosecutors are saying very confidently from

547
00:27:59,839 --> 00:28:01,839
the front of the room, this person would be brought

548
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,680
up on murder charges if they were alive, but they

549
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,440
don't have to bother going through that whole process because

550
00:28:07,519 --> 00:28:12,119
they're only identifying people after their deaths, and especially when

551
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:16,240
we've seen for decades in both the Colonial Parkway murders

552
00:28:16,279 --> 00:28:20,519
and the Shenandoah Park murders. This bizarre foot dragging by

553
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:24,480
law enforcement. What are they waiting for? Are they waiting

554
00:28:24,559 --> 00:28:27,119
for these people to die? And then suddenly they're going

555
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,599
to go up front and say we got them? We didn't,

556
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:31,000
did we?

557
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,039
Speaker 5: I think that's where the show your work comes in,

558
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,400
because we need those answers. You're left to speculate, and

559
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,039
even people who are not conspiracy minded are left with

560
00:28:40,039 --> 00:28:42,960
a set of facts that they are really unsatisfied. They're

561
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,160
unsatisfactory because you can't go ask the people who have

562
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,200
been matched by DNA. You can't see any of the

563
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,359
evidence that they tested or their work, the method that

564
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,599
they use to identify these people. Now you can't talk

565
00:28:54,599 --> 00:28:57,240
to Darryl Rice. I will say. What the sheriff told

566
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,640
me about about that case is that the department had

567
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,799
received calls about somebody in a way that drivers were

568
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,160
very concerned about, and so they were actually headed out

569
00:29:07,279 --> 00:29:09,279
because there was a bicyclist riding in the middle of

570
00:29:09,279 --> 00:29:11,400
the road or something like that. That's what he said

571
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,079
to me. I would want to get more details from

572
00:29:14,119 --> 00:29:17,400
the deputies who actually were going to the scene, because

573
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,519
what he was telling me was probably secondhand. This is

574
00:29:19,519 --> 00:29:21,839
what his deputies had told him, and it was soon after.

575
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:23,839
I think I was the first reporter to talk to him.

576
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,559
But there was definitely something alarming to other people about

577
00:29:27,559 --> 00:29:29,720
the way he was riding and the time of night

578
00:29:29,839 --> 00:29:31,960
and the fact that he was not visible. And then

579
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,519
I think if the deputies may have even been almost

580
00:29:34,599 --> 00:29:38,160
unseen and they saw him be struck. I don't know

581
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,920
the circumstances around that. It sounds like just tragic, a

582
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:42,880
tragic accident.

583
00:29:43,559 --> 00:29:46,839
Speaker 2: There's something I would very much like to see, and

584
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,279
the sheriff should be able to provide this. I'd like

585
00:29:49,319 --> 00:29:52,680
to see photographs of the bicycle. I'm not asking to

586
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,920
see photographs of some poor man that's been hit by

587
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,960
a car, and I can imagine that's not something most

588
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,079
of us would want to see. But as someone, as

589
00:30:01,119 --> 00:30:03,319
a younger man who did a fair amount of long

590
00:30:03,359 --> 00:30:06,759
distance cycling, I know what a bike that's been set

591
00:30:06,839 --> 00:30:10,519
up or long rides, and the kind of pigneres and

592
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,880
packs and things like that. Even somebody traveling on the

593
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,359
down and dirty would have likely a sleeping bag and

594
00:30:17,519 --> 00:30:21,680
some small degree of equipment with them, some tools, a

595
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:25,079
couple of spare tubes, that sort of thing. I'd really

596
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:29,920
like to see photographs of Rice's bicycle and see is

597
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:34,799
this bicycle even capable of being ridden eleven hundred miles,

598
00:30:34,839 --> 00:30:37,680
whether it's eastbound or westbound, I don't know. He's a

599
00:30:37,759 --> 00:30:41,920
thousand miles away from his last known address. I'd like

600
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,759
to see that bike and just get a sense. Would

601
00:30:45,759 --> 00:30:48,759
this bike have even taken him from point A to

602
00:30:48,759 --> 00:30:49,240
point B?

603
00:30:49,599 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 5: Yeah? I think that's an interesting question. Something can be

604
00:30:52,039 --> 00:30:54,400
very interesting to see that and also interesting to see

605
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,920
if there's been any more information found out about where

606
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,039
he had stayed last, when he was last in Colorado,

607
00:31:01,039 --> 00:31:03,119
when he was last in Virginia, what was the last

608
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:05,880
conversation people had with him? Yeah, I don't, I have

609
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,400
not I don't know the answers to those things.

610
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 3: Before we leave Daryl David Rice behind, I did want

611
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,119
to ask one final question about a recent piece of

612
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:18,079
reporting that you did. You interviewed the retired forensic psychologist

613
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:22,279
je Fratcher on Charlottesville right now about his examination of

614
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:26,279
Darryl Rice. What did he happen to say about Darryl

615
00:31:26,359 --> 00:31:28,720
David Rice and his thoughts on whether or not he

616
00:31:28,839 --> 00:31:31,359
was capable of committing the Shenandoah murders.

617
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 5: So he said he interviewed Darryl Rice as I guess

618
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,759
he was hired by the defense, by Darryl Rice's defense

619
00:31:38,799 --> 00:31:43,400
attorney after the attack on Yvonne Malbosha, the bicyclist in

620
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,359
the Shenando National Park in ninety seven, and that's what

621
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:48,440
put him on the radar, of course, as the suspect

622
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,880
in the nineteen ninety six murders. He said he did

623
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,759
not believe that he was capable of murder that he

624
00:31:53,839 --> 00:31:56,799
thought he had. He said he kind of a weird guy,

625
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:01,839
mental health problems and I think out heavy drug history

626
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,240
of heavy drug use. But he did not see any

627
00:32:04,319 --> 00:32:06,839
signs that this was somebody who would be capable of

628
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,559
a double homicide. There's an assessment, a psychological assessment that

629
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,839
they had available to them in the late nineties. I

630
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:16,279
also will say I've known Jeff a long time. I

631
00:32:16,319 --> 00:32:18,359
think the world of him. I actually didn't know he'd

632
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,160
done the assessment. I just wanted him to commit as

633
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,079
like a general forensic psychologist to talk about stuff, and

634
00:32:23,079 --> 00:32:24,559
that he's, oh, yeah, I did that assessment. I was like,

635
00:32:24,759 --> 00:32:27,039
so that was great. But he was hired by the defense,

636
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,359
so I don't know that prosecutors would have taken everything

637
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,599
or investigators might have seen him as giving them the

638
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,279
answers that they that the defense wanted, But.

639
00:32:35,319 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 2: It was his sincere, thoughtful analysis in his professional opinion,

640
00:32:40,759 --> 00:32:43,960
he did not think that Rice was capable of a

641
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:48,039
double homicide. It was clear he did understand that Rice

642
00:32:48,319 --> 00:32:51,839
had attacked Yvon Malbosha and that he did have some

643
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,880
very serious issues. So it's not like he's making him

644
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:55,960
out to be a boy scout.

645
00:32:56,319 --> 00:32:58,079
Speaker 5: No, he's not making him out to be a boy scout.

646
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:03,079
I think malbosh description of that attack and the way

647
00:33:03,559 --> 00:33:07,400
Darryl Rice's defense team, supporters, advocates have described it, there's

648
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,039
a big difference between those two things. The description the

649
00:33:10,119 --> 00:33:15,359
transcripts that I've seen of her account, it was very frightening.

650
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,079
And then there was this attempt. There was his attempt

651
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:21,839
to get out of the park chin remove change license plates.

652
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,480
There were disturbing items or potentially disturbing items found in

653
00:33:25,519 --> 00:33:28,480
the truck, I think zip ties, but you could say

654
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:30,519
maybe he needed them for something else, but these were

655
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:33,920
I think long enough to be used to tie somebody up. Yeah.

656
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:35,599
I think that's one of the things that I think

657
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,119
his defense team has really downplayed and like at the

658
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:42,240
press conference that Monday after the DNA match was announced,

659
00:33:42,279 --> 00:33:44,559
they again really presented that as like he threw a

660
00:33:44,599 --> 00:33:46,640
water bottle, that doesn't make him a killer, but it

661
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:48,799
really was more than throwing a water bottle. And I

662
00:33:48,839 --> 00:33:51,480
think that for people who are on the other side,

663
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,720
it was like that underplaying that doesn't help either, because

664
00:33:54,759 --> 00:33:57,079
it seems like the reality was it was a terrifying

665
00:33:57,119 --> 00:33:59,960
incident for Yvonne Malbasha and she believed that he intended

666
00:33:59,960 --> 00:34:00,519
to kill her.

667
00:34:01,079 --> 00:34:04,839
Speaker 3: I do have a question about another notorious case in

668
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,039
that area, and that would be the Route twenty nine

669
00:34:07,279 --> 00:34:11,679
stalker case. During the press conference, the FBI released a

670
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:15,199
seeking information poster about Walter Leo Jackson, and one of

671
00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:17,239
the things that they mentioned was the fact that he

672
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,280
did have access to several vehicles he was known to

673
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,440
alter and change out license tags. Do you think that

674
00:34:23,559 --> 00:34:26,559
was the FBI kind of setting up this idea that

675
00:34:26,639 --> 00:34:30,039
Walter Leo Jackson could be the Route twenty nine stalker

676
00:34:30,599 --> 00:34:34,280
or was that just them presenting information that they had available.

677
00:34:34,639 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 5: They then also in that I'm going from memory, but

678
00:34:37,519 --> 00:34:40,519
I believe they said we have no information to suggest

679
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:44,039
that he was on Route twenty nine or anything like that, right,

680
00:34:44,079 --> 00:34:47,280
So they they specified that they don't have a reason

681
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,880
to suspect him. However, they also didn't manage to link

682
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,280
him to the Shenandoah Park for nearly thirty years. Don't

683
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:58,320
And I also don't know what DNA testing has been conducted,

684
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:03,119
for instance, in the Alicia Showalter Reynolds case. Can he

685
00:35:03,199 --> 00:35:06,559
be eliminated from evidence? There is there anything that has

686
00:35:06,559 --> 00:35:09,039
been done that's something I don't know the answer. Maybe

687
00:35:09,079 --> 00:35:10,800
there is an answer. Maybe you guys know the answer.

688
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:13,760
I don't well off the top of my head, but

689
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,559
I am curious, and I know obviously they have been

690
00:35:16,599 --> 00:35:19,800
doing this intense new round of testing on old cases.

691
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,519
So I wonder if I would think if they're running

692
00:35:22,679 --> 00:35:26,119
if they're running tests on Colonial Parkway and Shenandoah Park,

693
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:28,039
I would think that they would also be running tests

694
00:35:28,119 --> 00:35:29,440
on Alicia Showalter Renolds.

695
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:33,559
Speaker 2: We can help, yeah, I'd like to know that, and

696
00:35:34,039 --> 00:35:36,800
we are working on nailing that down. But it's difficult

697
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:41,400
because law enforcement won't answer questions, which is infuriating. Even

698
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:45,159
in questions in my own sister's case, they will not

699
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:48,360
answer questions in a straightforward manner. We are working through

700
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:52,360
other sources I didn't say something earlier. I hope longtime

701
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,480
listeners of this podcast understand that there are times when

702
00:35:55,519 --> 00:35:59,079
I will pass along information that I've received from people

703
00:35:59,119 --> 00:36:04,000
inside this investmentstigation, and I can't name names because those

704
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,199
sources will completely dry up or get fired for all

705
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:11,119
I know. I think people understand that when I say

706
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:15,000
we heard this from sources inside this investigation, there are

707
00:36:15,039 --> 00:36:18,239
one hundred percent clear I don't need to make stuff up.

708
00:36:18,639 --> 00:36:21,719
We're working now to try to find out what is

709
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:25,360
happening with the rest of this investigation. And the Route

710
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,960
twenty nine stocker case is another example of a case

711
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:33,039
that really needs a significant reboot. That's a Virginia State

712
00:36:33,079 --> 00:36:36,199
Police case. They've done some really good work. I would

713
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:38,559
just love for them, as you're saying, Courtney, to be

714
00:36:38,679 --> 00:36:41,920
revisiting this and going back through the evidence, much like

715
00:36:42,039 --> 00:36:45,039
the FBI, the National Park Service, and the Virginia State

716
00:36:45,039 --> 00:36:49,280
Police did recently. Even though we're frustrated, they are solving

717
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,440
cases and identifying suspects, and I have to give them

718
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:53,039
props for that.

719
00:36:53,639 --> 00:36:56,639
Speaker 5: It's a good thing to have these DNA matches, and

720
00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,000
everybody can wish that it happened a long time ago,

721
00:36:59,079 --> 00:37:01,480
but it's better that it happened at all. But there

722
00:37:01,519 --> 00:37:04,559
are these there's still so many questions. You hope they're

723
00:37:04,559 --> 00:37:06,920
doing it, and you also hope that they are revealing

724
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,800
as much information as they can. Everybody understands that investigations

725
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:13,760
require some level of confidentiality. You don't want to risk

726
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:17,159
not being able to get the solution in the cases

727
00:37:17,159 --> 00:37:19,800
that they've already closed. With these DNA matches, they're not

728
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,440
providing a good reason why they can't give more information.

729
00:37:24,199 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 3: This wasn't originally on my list of questions, but since

730
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:28,880
I've got you here, I'm going to go ahead and ask. Anyway,

731
00:37:30,159 --> 00:37:33,159
there was some supposition running around a couple of months

732
00:37:33,199 --> 00:37:36,599
back that the suspect in the Gilgo Beach or killing

733
00:37:36,639 --> 00:37:41,159
t Rex Huroorman might potentially be a twenty nine stocking suspect.

734
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:43,559
What are your thoughts on that? I just have to now.

735
00:37:43,639 --> 00:37:46,199
Speaker 5: I heard the same thing. I was like, Oh my gosh,

736
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:50,320
I'm trying to remember. Stranger things have happened. Look like

737
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:54,280
Walter Leo Jackson somehow gets from Cleveland, and his victims

738
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:56,599
in Cleveland, as far as I know, are like, there

739
00:37:56,639 --> 00:38:01,119
are women that are drug addicted positive in prostitution, and

740
00:38:01,159 --> 00:38:03,519
just so I say that not to judge the victims,

741
00:38:03,519 --> 00:38:05,960
but to say it's not the same mo as going

742
00:38:06,159 --> 00:38:09,119
camping in the park. Right, it's totally women in your

743
00:38:09,119 --> 00:38:12,360
neighborhood that you've seen every day and who are vulnerable

744
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,840
in that way versus the camp. But to the Gilgo

745
00:38:16,039 --> 00:38:18,960
Beach thing, I think it's the timing. And then I

746
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:21,559
think somewhere somebody said he has a family member who

747
00:38:21,559 --> 00:38:26,000
lives and they said nearby mom, his mom nearby nearby?

748
00:38:26,159 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 3: Was like, this area, I know it well enough. They

749
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,960
said that she lived nearby in Orange, but that's not

750
00:38:33,119 --> 00:38:33,880
as nearby.

751
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:34,639
Speaker 5: Yeah.

752
00:38:34,679 --> 00:38:36,920
Speaker 3: I was like, I'm as nearby as I would associate

753
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:37,679
with through twenty nine.

754
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,960
Speaker 5: Ye. Yeah, Because Darryl Rice's father lived within a couple

755
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:45,000
of miles of where Alicia Showalter Reynold's body was, that's nearby. Right.

756
00:38:45,079 --> 00:38:47,480
That gives you reason to think, Okay, we've got to

757
00:38:47,519 --> 00:38:50,360
at least look at him, because there is this piece

758
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:54,480
we know he stays within a few miles of this site,

759
00:38:55,039 --> 00:38:57,039
and it gives you something to look at. I don't

760
00:38:57,079 --> 00:39:00,559
know with Gilgo Beach, I don't think anything came of that.

761
00:39:00,639 --> 00:39:02,880
I certainly hope that they I hope they run down

762
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,280
the lead. If he had a pickup truck or he

763
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:07,480
was known to be driving twenty nine at that time,

764
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:11,480
it's certainly worth checking. The other weird thing is this question,

765
00:39:11,559 --> 00:39:14,719
and I do you guys know if they have been

766
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:19,920
able to put Wilmer's DNA through COTIS there was some

767
00:39:20,039 --> 00:39:21,239
kind of reason that they.

768
00:39:23,639 --> 00:39:27,199
Speaker 2: The claim And I am rolling my eyes Hererika and

769
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:31,159
listeners know this is a hot button for us. The

770
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:37,840
claim is that under Virginia state policy Commonwealth of Virginia policy,

771
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:42,400
unless you've been charged with a felony, your DNA cannot

772
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:46,519
be put into COTIS. And obviously Wilmer's dead and has

773
00:39:46,559 --> 00:39:49,559
been dead since twenty seventeen, so we're not putting his

774
00:39:49,679 --> 00:39:52,519
DNA into COTIS. And at the same time, and I say,

775
00:39:52,559 --> 00:39:57,000
this is gritted teeth. Wilmer's dead, who cares his rights?

776
00:39:57,119 --> 00:40:01,199
Died with him? Where are the families and the victims

777
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:03,719
in all of this? Why are we so concerned about

778
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:07,000
respecting Wilmer's rights when the man's been dead for what

779
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:08,199
seven years?

780
00:40:08,519 --> 00:40:11,119
Speaker 5: That is an idiotic loophole. If there is a law

781
00:40:11,119 --> 00:40:13,159
that says you can't do that when somebody has been

782
00:40:13,199 --> 00:40:16,320
definitively matched by DNA to one murder, they are dead

783
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,400
themselves that you can't put their DNA into the data

784
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:21,880
bank to sy if you can close other cases. I

785
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:26,840
can't imagine anyone anywhere on the political spectrum right objecting

786
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:30,079
to that right. That is, like you said, it's victim first,

787
00:40:30,199 --> 00:40:33,039
and the victims need answers. If the person has been

788
00:40:33,119 --> 00:40:36,760
matched to a brutal homicide, I think they're dead. They're

789
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,800
right to privacy. Of course, you don't want police being

790
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:43,199
able to plug anybody's DNA into the go hunting for people.

791
00:40:43,559 --> 00:40:46,239
There are problems with that, But under the circumstance if

792
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:49,599
somebody has been linked to one violent crime and they're deceased,

793
00:40:50,039 --> 00:40:52,239
you tell me. I don't understand what the argument could

794
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:54,519
possibly be. And if there is a law, I would

795
00:40:54,519 --> 00:40:56,440
think that there's a legislator out there who would love

796
00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:57,320
to close that loophole.

797
00:40:57,599 --> 00:40:59,559
Speaker 2: We're not going to let this one go. We're still

798
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:05,320
from to find out exactly how this rule works. One

799
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:07,800
of the things ourn't listeners have been baffled by the

800
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:10,960
code of system, which is way less than perfect. As

801
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:14,920
we all know it's set up. It's actually fifty different systems.

802
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,639
The rules are different state to state, and I think

803
00:41:18,679 --> 00:41:22,559
this is insane and needs to be changed. But one

804
00:41:22,599 --> 00:41:26,599
step at a time. Here, Wilmer is a serial killer.

805
00:41:26,639 --> 00:41:30,280
By an FBI official definition, if you're identified to have

806
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:33,079
killed three or more people in two or more incidents,

807
00:41:33,199 --> 00:41:36,519
you're considered a serial killer. So Wilmer is a serial killer.

808
00:41:36,639 --> 00:41:40,000
And I don't think anybody is going to argue passionately

809
00:41:40,519 --> 00:41:43,639
that his rights are somehow being violated when all we're

810
00:41:43,679 --> 00:41:46,599
trying to do is confirm was he involved in other

811
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:49,960
unsolved murders and sexual assault? And I don't think that's

812
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,159
an unreasonable thing for us to seek.

813
00:41:52,599 --> 00:41:56,079
Speaker 5: That is something. If there is some argument against putting

814
00:41:56,159 --> 00:41:58,199
his DNA through the system to see if there's a

815
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:01,400
hit on other cases, I I can't imagine what it

816
00:42:01,519 --> 00:42:04,920
is like anything that makes any sense. I just can't

817
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:05,400
imagine that.

818
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:09,400
Speaker 3: Courtney, you're very busy, and I know that you've probably

819
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,719
got a couple of different projects coming up soon. Can

820
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:14,840
you tell us a little bit about what's next for you?

821
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:16,199
What should we be looking for?

822
00:42:16,599 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, so I have been as working on all different

823
00:42:19,079 --> 00:42:21,119
kinds of things. So I have my daily radio show.

824
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,800
I also continue to do work with my podcast partner

825
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:27,599
Rachel Ryan, who I did Small Town, Big Prime with,

826
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:29,840
and we have spent the last couple of years looking

827
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:33,159
at a bunch of cold cases because we're really only

828
00:42:33,199 --> 00:42:36,880
interested in working on cases where there's an answer that

829
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:39,840
people still need or something, and the Shenandoah murders is

830
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:42,760
one that we were really looking into. Everything changed, as

831
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:45,159
everybody knows with the DNA match and then the death

832
00:42:45,159 --> 00:42:47,840
of Darryl Rice, but as we've just discussed, we do

833
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:51,320
still feel like there are incredibly important questions to be answered.

834
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:53,960
So while it's no longer a cold case and Julian

835
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:57,400
and Lawley's families have the answer that they need, I

836
00:42:57,440 --> 00:42:59,519
think that there are questions that are still really valid

837
00:42:59,559 --> 00:43:01,679
to be asked. That So that is one of the cases,

838
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:04,880
and then we have several others that are really heartbreaking

839
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,920
cases from the Charlottesville area that we are continuing to

840
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:09,960
look into to see if we think we can make

841
00:43:10,039 --> 00:43:13,480
some progress and to do more in depth storytelling.

842
00:43:14,079 --> 00:43:17,840
Speaker 2: So we'll see more episodes of Small Town Big Crime

843
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:19,000
in the future.

844
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:23,280
Speaker 5: Not necessarily actually, I'm not sure what form our storytelling

845
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:25,480
will take, but yes, you will see more storytelling from us.

846
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:27,760
We are still trying to work out the details of

847
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:30,679
what that will look like. We started working on a book.

848
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:32,920
We've done a whole bunch of different things. We've looked

849
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:37,119
into video storytelling. We have a YouTube channel that is

850
00:43:37,119 --> 00:43:38,920
not at the I would say it's not at the

851
00:43:39,079 --> 00:43:41,960
level of production quality that it would need to be

852
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:43,960
really to do the kind of work that we want

853
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:46,679
to do. But like I've worked in all these platforms

854
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,039
and I love storytelling of all forms, and so I

855
00:43:49,119 --> 00:43:50,679
just look for whatever way is going to let me

856
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:52,719
do the work and let me tell the stories.

857
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:55,599
Speaker 3: Courtney, thank you so much for joining us today. It's

858
00:43:55,639 --> 00:43:57,320
been a real pleasure and we've loved having you.

859
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 5: I have loved being here. What a great conversation. Thanks,

860
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:01,840
Thank you both so much. And Christen, it's really nice

861
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:02,159
to meet you.

862
00:44:02,199 --> 00:44:04,760
Speaker 3: Finally, Oh, it's great to meet you too. That is

863
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:06,920
going to do it for this episode of mind Over Murder.

864
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:10,199
Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time.

865
00:44:19,519 --> 00:44:23,039
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and

866
00:44:23,119 --> 00:44:24,559
Another Dog Productions.

867
00:44:25,119 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.

868
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:31,239
Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.

869
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:33,920
Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud.

870
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:38,760
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media.

871
00:44:39,159 --> 00:44:42,320
Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.

872
00:44:42,519 --> 00:44:45,119
Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway

873
00:44:45,159 --> 00:44:47,000
Murders on Facebook.

874
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:49,800
Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at

875
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:51,440
Bill Thomas. Five six.

876
00:44:51,920 --> 00:45:28,280
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.

877
00:45:02,159 --> 00:45:02,480
Speaker 3: Cont