WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.960 --> 00:00:12.839 You're listening to Redefining Energy. Your co hosts from Berlin, 2 00:00:13.039 --> 00:00:16.280 Gerard Read and from London Laurent Saga. 3 00:00:17.239 --> 00:00:20.920 Today on Redefining Energy, Laurent, we're going to talk about 4 00:00:21.079 --> 00:00:24.760 the decarbonization of industry and the solutions that we need 5 00:00:24.800 --> 00:00:25.719 in the future to do that. 6 00:00:26.399 --> 00:00:30.679 Yeah, the so called hard to abate sector. And there's 7 00:00:30.719 --> 00:00:35.479 been several trailblazer in that segment. Of course, we took 8 00:00:35.520 --> 00:00:40.240 about breakthrough energy venture energy impat partners in a certain way, 9 00:00:40.520 --> 00:00:44.320 Predu ad Ventures who really coined the term climate tech. 10 00:00:44.759 --> 00:00:48.280 And now the approach is how do we go from 11 00:00:48.280 --> 00:00:52.280 a VC all up to a first factory And that's 12 00:00:52.320 --> 00:00:53.600 what our guest is doing. 13 00:00:53.920 --> 00:00:57.359 Yeah, so listen. I know Sean Kingspike many years and 14 00:00:57.840 --> 00:01:02.399 obviously spent a long time in the whole financing renewables, 15 00:01:02.399 --> 00:01:05.280 particularly in the UK, and you know he's a chief 16 00:01:05.319 --> 00:01:09.719 investment officer Just Climate, just start up by Generation Capital really, 17 00:01:09.760 --> 00:01:12.879 which has been one of the four runners of investing 18 00:01:12.920 --> 00:01:14.719 in climate the last I don't know how long they've been, 19 00:01:14.719 --> 00:01:17.000 around fifteen years something like that. At this point in time, 20 00:01:18.079 --> 00:01:20.280 I think it's great to have him talk about what 21 00:01:20.439 --> 00:01:24.719 Just Climate is doing and also about industrial climate solutions 22 00:01:24.879 --> 00:01:25.920 from why they're important. 23 00:01:26.079 --> 00:01:30.519 Sean Kingsbury has been instrumental in the development of the 24 00:01:30.680 --> 00:01:34.359 na of show win industry when he was at the 25 00:01:34.400 --> 00:01:38.480 head of the UK Green Investment Bank. So let's bring 26 00:01:38.519 --> 00:01:41.560 Sean on the show. Sean, welcome to the show. 27 00:01:42.079 --> 00:01:43.799 Thank you very much both to you for having me. 28 00:01:43.879 --> 00:01:45.400 I'm looking forward to the discussion. 29 00:01:45.799 --> 00:01:48.280 So Sean, maybe just we kick off a little bit 30 00:01:48.319 --> 00:01:50.480 by talking a little bit about what you do. 31 00:01:51.280 --> 00:01:53.799 It's a nice easy one to start, Jared, isn't it. 32 00:01:53.799 --> 00:01:56.239 It's like, we do the hard stuff. That's really what 33 00:01:56.280 --> 00:01:59.200 we do with just climate. We try to focus in 34 00:01:59.239 --> 00:02:04.000 on the high emitting and most off track areas of climate. 35 00:02:04.599 --> 00:02:06.480 Why do we do the hard stuff? That's where the 36 00:02:06.480 --> 00:02:10.080 emissions are. So we look at those areas which produce 37 00:02:10.919 --> 00:02:14.360 maybe fifty or sixty percent of the emissions, but get 38 00:02:14.479 --> 00:02:16.919 very little of the capital flows that are moving to 39 00:02:17.000 --> 00:02:20.080 sort these things out. The middle of the investment flow 40 00:02:20.120 --> 00:02:23.120 maybe less than twenty percent. And you might say, well, 41 00:02:23.120 --> 00:02:25.800 why is that If these are the areas producing the 42 00:02:25.840 --> 00:02:28.680 most emissions, why does the money not flow to them. 43 00:02:28.759 --> 00:02:31.439 Surely that's what we should be doing. Targeting the art 44 00:02:31.439 --> 00:02:34.360 areas and The reason I think the money doesn't flow 45 00:02:35.240 --> 00:02:38.280 is because the buckets at the capitol comes in don't 46 00:02:38.319 --> 00:02:43.960 necessarily meet the requirements of what the investments need. You 47 00:02:44.039 --> 00:02:46.639 and I've both spent many times sitting at a conference 48 00:02:46.840 --> 00:02:49.800 hosting a round table discussion, and maybe on my right 49 00:02:50.120 --> 00:02:52.159 I've got banks, and on my left I've got the 50 00:02:52.199 --> 00:02:55.439 project developers and the technology companies. Another look at the 51 00:02:55.439 --> 00:02:57.800 banks and they all say, you know, we've got one 52 00:02:57.879 --> 00:03:00.719 hundred bizillion dollars to invest in this area. We're going 53 00:03:00.800 --> 00:03:02.960 to really move some capital, but we can't find the 54 00:03:03.039 --> 00:03:06.400 right opportunities. And I look to my left and I've 55 00:03:06.400 --> 00:03:09.840 got lots of project developers or technology companies, and they're saying, 56 00:03:09.840 --> 00:03:12.800 we've got an amazing green technology or a fantastic project 57 00:03:12.840 --> 00:03:15.919 we'd like you to invest in. And you feel like saying, 58 00:03:15.919 --> 00:03:18.719 haven't you guys met But of course they have met it. 59 00:03:19.159 --> 00:03:21.039 But the reason that they haven't been able to do 60 00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:26.400 something is finance typically comes in buckets. There's venture capital, 61 00:03:26.520 --> 00:03:30.319 there's growth capital, there's biod capital, there's infrastructure capital. We've 62 00:03:30.360 --> 00:03:32.840 got very very clever names for all the different types 63 00:03:32.879 --> 00:03:36.879 of capital, but these transactions are typically too big for 64 00:03:37.000 --> 00:03:42.719 venture Two asset heavy for growth certainly not yet infrastructure. 65 00:03:42.719 --> 00:03:45.560 Maybe real assets, but not infrastructure, and they're not biot. 66 00:03:45.960 --> 00:03:50.000 So the buckets are capital don't meet the opportunity set 67 00:03:50.360 --> 00:03:52.719 and that's what we do with just Climate. We try 68 00:03:52.719 --> 00:03:56.479 to provide a flexible capital stack to lean into those 69 00:03:56.520 --> 00:04:00.360 areas that are most off track, that are usually asset heavy, 70 00:04:00.759 --> 00:04:03.280 and try and provide the capitals. That's what just climates 71 00:04:03.319 --> 00:04:05.879 all about. We call it climate lant investing. 72 00:04:06.240 --> 00:04:09.280 And Jean, can you give a practical example of that 73 00:04:09.439 --> 00:04:12.879 so our listener really sort of understands what you're talking 74 00:04:12.919 --> 00:04:13.400 about there. 75 00:04:13.960 --> 00:04:17.040 Let me use an example one that many people will know, 76 00:04:17.399 --> 00:04:21.000 and it's one that I learned about maybe twelve or 77 00:04:21.040 --> 00:04:24.160 fourteen years ago when we were running the Green Investment Bank. 78 00:04:24.199 --> 00:04:28.000 When we set that up, we wanted to build usher 79 00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:31.120 wind here in the UK, and people would look at 80 00:04:31.160 --> 00:04:33.160 me kind of strange and say, you're going to be 81 00:04:33.160 --> 00:04:37.879 in wind turbines in the sea. And in those days, 82 00:04:38.680 --> 00:04:41.639 there wasn't a track record of building those projects and 83 00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:45.480 delivering them long time and on budget, and they required 84 00:04:45.480 --> 00:04:48.120 a very significant green premium. I think some of the 85 00:04:48.120 --> 00:04:51.360 first projects we did required about one hundred and fifty 86 00:04:51.439 --> 00:04:54.240 five pounds and I go whatever. When the market price 87 00:04:54.319 --> 00:04:57.800 was about fifty so three times the cost of conventional power. 88 00:04:58.480 --> 00:05:01.959 Over the next four or five years we started to 89 00:05:01.959 --> 00:05:04.959 fund those. We delivered nine or ten projects that we 90 00:05:05.079 --> 00:05:07.959 invested in all time on budget. The market did another 91 00:05:08.079 --> 00:05:10.639 nine or ten. We came down the cost curve and 92 00:05:10.680 --> 00:05:13.360 the bits on offshore wind were thirty nine pounds of 93 00:05:13.439 --> 00:05:15.720 mega one hour. So we went from three times a 94 00:05:15.759 --> 00:05:19.040 conventional price to twenty percent below and we created an 95 00:05:19.079 --> 00:05:23.079 asset class and then people could invest because it was proven. 96 00:05:23.600 --> 00:05:26.399 Now we need to do that in green steel, low 97 00:05:26.439 --> 00:05:31.480 carbon cement, green chemicals, plastic, SAFT, long duration energy stores. 98 00:05:31.560 --> 00:05:33.439 I could give you the list for the next five minutes. 99 00:05:33.680 --> 00:05:36.000 You know what they are. And that's the kind of 100 00:05:36.040 --> 00:05:38.720 track reck coord that we need to create. And we 101 00:05:38.800 --> 00:05:41.839 need to find these technologies and drive them down the 102 00:05:41.879 --> 00:05:43.839 cost curve and make them investable. 103 00:05:44.519 --> 00:05:47.519 I like that from the outside looking in, it sounds 104 00:05:47.560 --> 00:05:50.000 a bit like what Jigasha is trying to do at 105 00:05:50.360 --> 00:05:54.040 Dewey Long Program Office, but more onnbiquity side. 106 00:05:54.560 --> 00:05:58.079 In one sense, loan it's a private markets version of that. 107 00:05:58.639 --> 00:06:01.079 When I had the grit prove to be asked to 108 00:06:01.120 --> 00:06:03.480 set up the Green Vestment Bank in the UK. It 109 00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:06.160 was the world's first. We didn't have a business model, 110 00:06:06.680 --> 00:06:10.399 but we created one, something that was admired and copied 111 00:06:10.399 --> 00:06:12.839 around the world. They're now forty or fifty of these 112 00:06:12.920 --> 00:06:15.639 kind of institutions stay by stated mostly in the US 113 00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:20.160 country by country. But there are two flaws. Without business model, 114 00:06:20.480 --> 00:06:23.199 it works really well, but there limitations. And those two 115 00:06:23.240 --> 00:06:27.800 limitations are, as you all know, climate is not defined 116 00:06:27.839 --> 00:06:31.000 by national boundaries. It's a global problem, and so the 117 00:06:31.000 --> 00:06:34.920 capital needs to be global. And while governments, particularly the 118 00:06:35.040 --> 00:06:38.800 US government that you mentioned with Jiggershaw on Thede, can 119 00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:41.560 move large amounts of money, they can't move enough money 120 00:06:41.600 --> 00:06:45.040 to solve this problem. So we need a private markets version, 121 00:06:45.240 --> 00:06:48.920 and we need an international version, a private markets version 122 00:06:49.160 --> 00:06:52.759 that taps into the deepest pools of institutional capital and 123 00:06:52.800 --> 00:06:56.680 gets that money to work, but using the same principles 124 00:06:56.959 --> 00:07:00.120 that you've seen with something like the due, leaning in 125 00:07:00.120 --> 00:07:04.360 to the hardbits, proving a track record. So in one sense, 126 00:07:04.560 --> 00:07:09.519 just climate is a private markets, institutional quality version of 127 00:07:09.560 --> 00:07:11.519 a green bag. You're very very close. 128 00:07:12.079 --> 00:07:14.720 I look at your portfolio and for instance, you have 129 00:07:15.319 --> 00:07:18.759 h two green Steeler. So that's the decombanization of the 130 00:07:18.800 --> 00:07:21.360 steel industry. So can you elaborate to bit on green 131 00:07:21.399 --> 00:07:23.920 steel because we hear everything and it's opposite. 132 00:07:24.319 --> 00:07:26.680 That's a really good example. And of course we've just 133 00:07:26.800 --> 00:07:30.000 renamed the company's Stegro, so why you use that it's 134 00:07:30.319 --> 00:07:33.319 You could use it interchangeably with it's two green steel. 135 00:07:33.759 --> 00:07:37.399 But the story there follows the kind of approach we 136 00:07:37.480 --> 00:07:41.439 take at just Climate when we look for these investment opportunities. 137 00:07:41.800 --> 00:07:44.040 We start with road maps. We don't get up in 138 00:07:44.079 --> 00:07:47.360 the morning and figure out there's the transaction that looks interesting. 139 00:07:47.639 --> 00:07:50.399 Is it sustainable enough to go into our fund? We 140 00:07:50.439 --> 00:07:51.839 get up in the morning and we say where do 141 00:07:51.839 --> 00:07:55.079 the emissions come from climate led investing? And of course 142 00:07:55.120 --> 00:07:58.079 if you go through that, number one on that list 143 00:07:58.160 --> 00:08:01.480 is cement and concrete production to a steel. So you 144 00:08:01.600 --> 00:08:03.920 quickly get the steel and you say, okay, what are 145 00:08:03.959 --> 00:08:08.240 the technologies that might decarbonize this, what are the companies 146 00:08:08.279 --> 00:08:10.720 that are leading on this and where are they making 147 00:08:10.759 --> 00:08:15.040 things work? And so we looked at hydrogen for the 148 00:08:15.079 --> 00:08:19.160 decarbonization of the steel process, and we really liked what 149 00:08:19.279 --> 00:08:23.040 they were doing. Advantage to green steel niz Stagra in 150 00:08:23.120 --> 00:08:25.920 terms of developing a project that was world scale. This is 151 00:08:26.040 --> 00:08:29.360 the first steel plan, never mind green steel plan, the 152 00:08:29.360 --> 00:08:32.320 first steel plant built in Europe in nearly thirty years. 153 00:08:32.840 --> 00:08:35.600 And if you can build it at scale, you can 154 00:08:35.600 --> 00:08:38.879 come downe that cost curve and you can integrate all 155 00:08:38.879 --> 00:08:41.879 of the various pieces from the production of hydrogen through 156 00:08:41.919 --> 00:08:46.039 the direct production tower, the dri tower, through to the 157 00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:49.480 electric ark furnace, all running and renewables, and you can 158 00:08:49.519 --> 00:08:51.759 get done that cost curve and you can offer it 159 00:08:52.120 --> 00:08:55.320 really at scale inside the perimeters of Europe where a 160 00:08:55.360 --> 00:08:59.200 seabam applies, and that gives you an extra additional bump. 161 00:09:00.120 --> 00:09:02.759 And then the key question is how do you project 162 00:09:02.759 --> 00:09:05.600 finance this thing. This is a very large project including 163 00:09:05.639 --> 00:09:09.360 all of the financing calls well over six billion euros. 164 00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:12.320 It's a big project. And so in order to get 165 00:09:12.440 --> 00:09:14.759 project finance to work, and this is the kind of 166 00:09:14.799 --> 00:09:17.360 stuff that you do all day long, you need high 167 00:09:17.480 --> 00:09:20.919 quality off take arrangements that are multiple years with credit 168 00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:24.960 worthy countreparties. So they had set abite putting in players 169 00:09:25.200 --> 00:09:28.320 forty to fifty percent of the off tick locked up 170 00:09:28.360 --> 00:09:31.559 over five to seven years. And what we find is 171 00:09:31.879 --> 00:09:33.840 there are a number of customers who are willing to 172 00:09:33.919 --> 00:09:37.559 pay what's a reasonably modest premium for that great steel. 173 00:09:37.960 --> 00:09:40.120 And why is that. Maybe they're using it in trucks, 174 00:09:40.159 --> 00:09:43.039 maybe they're using it in cars. And whenever you're producing 175 00:09:43.039 --> 00:09:45.600 an elected car, you really want something with the lowest 176 00:09:45.600 --> 00:09:49.320 possible embedded carbon as well as zero till pipe permissions. 177 00:09:49.799 --> 00:09:53.840 And so today many of the companies buy steal steals 178 00:09:53.840 --> 00:09:56.600 about sixty percent of the win of a car, and 179 00:09:56.639 --> 00:09:59.559 then they buy carbonov sets for that. So they're already 180 00:09:59.559 --> 00:10:02.960 paying a premium over the cost of regular steel. And 181 00:10:03.000 --> 00:10:05.600 so if you can sell them green steel, they're really 182 00:10:05.679 --> 00:10:09.240 keen to do that to have a proper decarbonization. And 183 00:10:09.320 --> 00:10:11.720 so what we wanted to do was build a project 184 00:10:12.159 --> 00:10:15.279 which would then have a real perimeter that would produce 185 00:10:15.360 --> 00:10:18.080 the steel from the factory gate. All it was in 186 00:10:18.200 --> 00:10:21.480 is iron ore and green electricity, and what comes out 187 00:10:21.559 --> 00:10:25.840 is green steel, and that's what we've been able to finance. 188 00:10:26.120 --> 00:10:29.840 It was the biggest private markets transaction last year. So 189 00:10:29.879 --> 00:10:32.200 as we think about how difficult the market is at 190 00:10:32.200 --> 00:10:36.559 the moment, we are still getting transactions like that away 191 00:10:36.799 --> 00:10:40.320 and done in our sector. And that's why we did it. 192 00:10:40.600 --> 00:10:44.240 We started with the carbon emissions. They calculated where those 193 00:10:44.240 --> 00:10:46.639 were coming from, and we went and found a company 194 00:10:47.159 --> 00:10:48.320 ready to build a worst of the. 195 00:10:48.360 --> 00:10:52.360 Kindlad John, can I ask you about cement because there 196 00:10:52.399 --> 00:10:53.679 seems to be a lot. 197 00:10:53.600 --> 00:10:56.799 Happening in that area, right and obviously you're looking at 198 00:10:56.799 --> 00:10:57.600 that whole lockers. 199 00:10:57.799 --> 00:10:59.600 Could you just give your views on how you see 200 00:10:59.600 --> 00:11:00.360 that go forward. 201 00:11:01.039 --> 00:11:04.639 It's perhaps one of the more difficult markets. First of all, 202 00:11:04.639 --> 00:11:08.360 it's the biggest emitter. You have emissions not just from 203 00:11:08.480 --> 00:11:11.600 the heat or the energy needed in the kilns, but 204 00:11:11.799 --> 00:11:14.759 you have process emissions when you drive off the CO 205 00:11:15.000 --> 00:11:18.360 two from the limestone, and so you can look at 206 00:11:18.399 --> 00:11:22.759 ways of decarbonizing the heat source using renewable energy. So 207 00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:26.120 an electric kiln does something. You can look at carbon 208 00:11:26.240 --> 00:11:30.080 capture and storage, or you can look at other processes. 209 00:11:30.159 --> 00:11:32.600 Maybe you don't start with limestone, but start with another 210 00:11:32.759 --> 00:11:35.879 rock that you can then use as a substitution in 211 00:11:35.919 --> 00:11:39.240 the concrete and cement mix that you produce, which is 212 00:11:39.320 --> 00:11:42.919 less embedded carbon emissions. But it's very hard because the 213 00:11:43.039 --> 00:11:46.639 unit value of cement and concrete is actually very low. 214 00:11:47.000 --> 00:11:49.840 It's very expensive to ship. It doesn't go very far, 215 00:11:49.919 --> 00:11:52.480 you know, maybe one hundred miles maybe two hundred miles 216 00:11:52.519 --> 00:11:55.759 at most, and the margins in it are much lower 217 00:11:55.759 --> 00:11:59.080 than the margins for example, in steel production. No one 218 00:11:59.159 --> 00:12:03.440 has yet merge with a leading technology and a leading solution, 219 00:12:03.840 --> 00:12:06.279 but lots of people, as you say, are very active 220 00:12:06.639 --> 00:12:11.240 in finding different ways to significantly reduce the footprint, and 221 00:12:11.320 --> 00:12:16.320 I expect to see companies emerge using a variety of 222 00:12:16.360 --> 00:12:21.480 those different solutions, from decarbonizing the heat source to substitution 223 00:12:21.639 --> 00:12:25.000 of ordinary Portland cement over the next few years that 224 00:12:25.080 --> 00:12:27.279 will actually make an impact. We have to do something. 225 00:12:27.320 --> 00:12:29.480 When you look at where the emissions come from. Sixty 226 00:12:29.480 --> 00:12:32.919 percent of cement concrete is going into new cities, mostly 227 00:12:32.960 --> 00:12:35.679 in Asia, and we really have to do something. Nw 228 00:12:36.360 --> 00:12:38.960 We've worked on a concept of time value of carbon. 229 00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:43.279 We all understand time value of money, but removing carbon 230 00:12:43.320 --> 00:12:45.960 from the atmosphere now is more valuable than removing in 231 00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:49.320 a twenty thirty or twenty thirty five. So making progress 232 00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:51.679 on these sorts of things now is really important. 233 00:12:52.240 --> 00:12:55.080 Guys, you are the great thinkers, and me I'm just 234 00:12:55.120 --> 00:12:57.879 a guy with a calculator in front of a trading screen. 235 00:12:58.679 --> 00:13:00.720 So I'm going to tell you sim is one hundred 236 00:13:00.759 --> 00:13:03.960 dollar paton okay, and steel is eight hundred dollar paton. 237 00:13:04.440 --> 00:13:08.919 It's a very simply calculation cement, super high volume and 238 00:13:08.960 --> 00:13:14.080 super low margins. The energy feed cement is the waste 239 00:13:14.120 --> 00:13:18.279 of refineries. They almost get the powerful free petcock is what. 240 00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:22.679 It's all full petcock. But it's a volume game. So decogonization, 241 00:13:23.240 --> 00:13:25.519 you're going to find a lot of great techniques and so. 242 00:13:25.960 --> 00:13:28.600 But the price are so low. It's a tough one. 243 00:13:28.759 --> 00:13:31.120 It's a tough one. It's exactly right. You're right about 244 00:13:31.159 --> 00:13:34.320 the point about the unit price. You're also right that 245 00:13:34.559 --> 00:13:37.240 it's not just the price. It's two other things that 246 00:13:37.279 --> 00:13:40.080 impact that. It's a low margin business compared to steel, 247 00:13:40.480 --> 00:13:44.039 and it's a very heavy and difficult and expensive product 248 00:13:44.200 --> 00:13:47.559 to move. So whatever you do, it can't be very 249 00:13:47.639 --> 00:13:50.120 much more expensive or the adoption will be very low. 250 00:13:50.759 --> 00:13:52.600 And whatever you do, you have to be able to 251 00:13:52.600 --> 00:13:55.440 do it in lots of locations because you can't have 252 00:13:55.480 --> 00:13:58.519 a big centralized planet that you ship the stuff licens 253 00:13:58.519 --> 00:14:02.240 and miles. It moves very distances. Those are the challenges 254 00:14:02.279 --> 00:14:04.440 with it. But I have to say we have seen 255 00:14:04.480 --> 00:14:08.600 some interesting technologies and we've seen some interesting companies that 256 00:14:08.679 --> 00:14:11.039 all come from the research the climate let research we do, 257 00:14:11.799 --> 00:14:15.000 and I would hope in our first fund, we're about 258 00:14:15.399 --> 00:14:19.200 seven hundred million advasted of our fund before we have 259 00:14:19.399 --> 00:14:21.919 completed that. I would hope that we can find something 260 00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:25.000 that can make a significant contribution. Maybe I can come 261 00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:26.360 on and talk to you about it and how it 262 00:14:26.440 --> 00:14:28.679 works and how you get over it exactly those critical 263 00:14:28.759 --> 00:14:31.279 issues that you'veidelined, that's what makes it difficult. 264 00:14:31.679 --> 00:14:35.679 You're also invested in immobility. So what's the segment Because 265 00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:39.759 the value chain is ginomos, So how do you position yourself? 266 00:14:40.240 --> 00:14:43.679 Why is transportation important? First of all, twenty five to 267 00:14:43.720 --> 00:14:46.480 thirty percent of the emissions to each country is a 268 00:14:46.519 --> 00:14:51.759 little bit different, and we see electrification as the main 269 00:14:51.799 --> 00:14:56.320 way in which almost all of the transport emissions will 270 00:14:56.320 --> 00:14:59.200 be reduced over time. You could do it for two whellers, 271 00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:00.720 you can do it for three whe you can do 272 00:15:00.759 --> 00:15:02.840 it for cars. You can do it for light trucks, 273 00:15:03.240 --> 00:15:07.679 increasingly heavier trucks, but the heaviest trucks are still very 274 00:15:07.720 --> 00:15:11.639 hard to decarbonize with power. And so if you look 275 00:15:11.679 --> 00:15:15.080 at the supply chainel that the area that we thought 276 00:15:15.559 --> 00:15:18.200 was one of the pinch points was the ability to 277 00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:22.360 rule out the highest powered chargers, the ones that you 278 00:15:22.399 --> 00:15:24.919 would use not at destinations or at your home, but 279 00:15:25.039 --> 00:15:28.320 I've been transit at scale and to do that on 280 00:15:28.399 --> 00:15:31.960 a global basis, and so the reason we selected to 281 00:15:32.120 --> 00:15:35.120 invest in Abbe Mobility is we think they are one 282 00:15:35.159 --> 00:15:38.480 of the only providers who can deliver those high power 283 00:15:38.600 --> 00:15:43.000 chargers to global CTOs around the world. We have customers 284 00:15:43.039 --> 00:15:46.919 and are delivering in over seventy countries. Fixing that pinch 285 00:15:46.960 --> 00:15:51.399 point would enable a faster decarbonization and electrification of transport. 286 00:15:52.120 --> 00:15:55.000 We also want to get to the higher powered chargers 287 00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:58.120 because we want to get to bigger and bigger trucks 288 00:15:58.639 --> 00:16:02.080 because if you look at where thetions come from, disproportionately, 289 00:16:02.120 --> 00:16:05.600 they come from the largest vehicles on our roads today 290 00:16:05.960 --> 00:16:09.759 and those will meet the fastest possible charging. Today, the 291 00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:12.080 company has a new product out there which is four 292 00:16:12.159 --> 00:16:15.960 hundred killowts, but over time we can imagine with liquid 293 00:16:15.960 --> 00:16:18.759 cooling and with the product development suite, we have getting 294 00:16:18.799 --> 00:16:21.879 up to a megawat of charging and that will enable 295 00:16:22.159 --> 00:16:25.840 the juty cycles on those larger trucks to work. And 296 00:16:25.919 --> 00:16:30.559 that's why we're particularly interested in emobility and made the investment. 297 00:16:31.399 --> 00:16:35.600 So Sean slightly different topic, which is I'm listening very 298 00:16:35.600 --> 00:16:38.600 clearly to you and I'm wondering if you're going to 299 00:16:38.639 --> 00:16:39.320 make money doing this. 300 00:16:42.360 --> 00:16:46.480 If we don't make money, we will failed. Our job 301 00:16:46.639 --> 00:16:50.759 is to bring that institutional quality, deep pools of capital 302 00:16:50.919 --> 00:16:54.799 to these areas, these areas where the missions are highest 303 00:16:54.799 --> 00:16:58.039 than their most off track. And it's till very well 304 00:16:58.159 --> 00:17:01.960 be talking about climate lane investing, but I should make 305 00:17:02.159 --> 00:17:05.480 really clear there is nothing about climate led investing that 306 00:17:05.599 --> 00:17:09.839 isn't one hundred percent commercial. It's fully caffemated at investing. 307 00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:13.440 If we are going to move the large amounts of 308 00:17:13.559 --> 00:17:17.240 capital that are required to solve these challenges, they will 309 00:17:17.319 --> 00:17:22.160 move when they conceive profit opportunities. I have experience of 310 00:17:22.240 --> 00:17:24.920 doing this before, looking for in the hard to abit 311 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:27.240 areas and showing that you can make great money, I 312 00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:30.359 mean the great opportunities. There is a much less competition 313 00:17:30.440 --> 00:17:33.039 in those areas. But of course you have to be 314 00:17:33.079 --> 00:17:37.039 thoughtful and you need a different set of skill sets 315 00:17:37.200 --> 00:17:39.960 to have a strategy like this and be successful in it. 316 00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:42.960 Activity what you do and you work with many people 317 00:17:43.279 --> 00:17:46.359 they have a very similar kind of investment banking kind 318 00:17:46.400 --> 00:17:51.000 of team. But we needed a team who were purposely 319 00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:54.200 very diverse in terms of their background and experience. Because 320 00:17:54.200 --> 00:17:58.039 we're building real assets. We needed a team that understood 321 00:17:58.160 --> 00:18:02.079 building companies and growth styles investing. We needed people in 322 00:18:02.119 --> 00:18:06.440 that team who understood infrastructure style investing real assets. We 323 00:18:06.480 --> 00:18:10.559 needed on that team people who understood project financing, impact, 324 00:18:11.079 --> 00:18:16.240 engineering operations, and bringing them all together under the umbrella 325 00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:19.279 of just climate. We purposely set the team up to 326 00:18:19.400 --> 00:18:22.319 integrate those sorts of skills because I think if you 327 00:18:22.519 --> 00:18:26.480 haven't got those skills, this becomes a very very difficult 328 00:18:26.680 --> 00:18:29.960 investment Manda. Of course, the proof of the pudding will 329 00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:33.359 be in the eating, and it's a hard manded. But 330 00:18:33.680 --> 00:18:37.319 having done this before, having led this sort of an 331 00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:40.079 integrated team to look at the things that other people 332 00:18:40.119 --> 00:18:43.759 find difficult and proven that that works, I think within 333 00:18:43.799 --> 00:18:45.759 the team we have a track record to be able 334 00:18:45.759 --> 00:18:48.319 to deliver that. But let me be really clear. If 335 00:18:48.359 --> 00:18:52.079 we're going to succeed in making climate lead and investing 336 00:18:52.279 --> 00:18:55.920 something that is admired and copied around the world, much 337 00:18:56.000 --> 00:18:58.720 like the green investment bank model was admired and copied 338 00:18:58.759 --> 00:19:03.279 around the world, have to deliver attractive returns and highest 339 00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:06.079 level of impact and deliver them both at the same 340 00:19:06.119 --> 00:19:08.119 time or will fail enor mess. 341 00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:10.319 Jean, thank you very very much for that. 342 00:19:10.960 --> 00:19:12.720 Again, just I want to maybe go. 343 00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:15.160 A little bit back to the market environment if you 344 00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:17.000 look at it, I think, if I go back in 345 00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:20.279 my career, we've seen sort of three clean. 346 00:19:20.079 --> 00:19:23.880 Tech bubbles and all of them have blown up, and 347 00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:26.440 I feel we're in a third one now. You see 348 00:19:26.440 --> 00:19:30.960 all the spoks in the US that like down, you 349 00:19:31.000 --> 00:19:33.000 see dal rounds taking place everywhere. 350 00:19:33.039 --> 00:19:36.759 It's just over capacity. It seems to be from investor 351 00:19:36.759 --> 00:19:39.519 part of a mess. I'd be interested to hear. 352 00:19:39.599 --> 00:19:42.960 Your thoughts on the market environment and how you see 353 00:19:43.000 --> 00:19:43.839 it going forward. 354 00:19:43.839 --> 00:19:46.839 Basically, I guess one of the few joys of being 355 00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:50.720 older is you see pattern recognition. And indeed we've seen 356 00:19:50.799 --> 00:19:54.759 some of this before. There's a sudden wave of enthusiasm 357 00:19:55.000 --> 00:19:59.559 followed by a crash of reality. But what happens after 358 00:19:59.599 --> 00:20:03.759 that is a steady, solid growth. If you think through 359 00:20:04.200 --> 00:20:06.799 wind on shore, if you think through wind offshore, you 360 00:20:06.799 --> 00:20:09.720 think through batteries, if you think through solar for example, 361 00:20:10.039 --> 00:20:13.240 we've all gone through this initial wave of enthusiasm, maybe 362 00:20:13.240 --> 00:20:17.640 some excitable inflated values, a crash of reality, and then 363 00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:21.799 a steady growth That's what I expect we will see here, 364 00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:26.200 and we will see waves of enthusiasm and volatility I 365 00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:28.759 suspect over the next twenty years as we continue to 366 00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:33.240 invest in these things. But if you can create investible 367 00:20:33.279 --> 00:20:38.000 and repeatable business models where you can get the first 368 00:20:38.359 --> 00:20:41.839 signs of success in each of these subsectors and then 369 00:20:41.920 --> 00:20:45.039 go for the sam rinse and repeat program that we've 370 00:20:45.079 --> 00:20:49.759 seen in wind and solar in batteries, I think you 371 00:20:49.799 --> 00:20:52.359 can create acid classes just like we were able to 372 00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:56.039 create around offshore wind, in things like SAP, in things 373 00:20:56.079 --> 00:20:58.799 like steel, in things like cement, where at the very 374 00:20:58.799 --> 00:21:02.200 early stages of that. But we shouldn't get too excited 375 00:21:02.240 --> 00:21:05.440 when the market gets frothy or too depressed. When the 376 00:21:05.480 --> 00:21:09.759 market's done and look for that wave of standard growth 377 00:21:09.839 --> 00:21:13.680 that typically comes after these periods of volatile We need 378 00:21:13.680 --> 00:21:16.279 a deliver chart, we need to deliver which. 379 00:21:16.160 --> 00:21:18.839 Shorty show absolutely needs to deliver. 380 00:21:19.720 --> 00:21:23.039 I agree on the principle, which is in the short 381 00:21:23.119 --> 00:21:27.119 term pessimist always right and in the long term optimist 382 00:21:27.240 --> 00:21:29.279 deliver change that I agree. 383 00:21:29.839 --> 00:21:33.160 Now now I think you should just stop there. I 384 00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:33.680 agree with you. 385 00:21:38.200 --> 00:21:41.599 Now. When Trump got elected, everything in the market when 386 00:21:41.960 --> 00:21:44.880 except when obles went down, and look, that's very sad. 387 00:21:44.920 --> 00:21:49.000 And sometimes I wonder if a lot of pine the 388 00:21:49.079 --> 00:21:53.279 sky who could five years ago raised hundreds of millions 389 00:21:53.279 --> 00:21:57.079 based on a power point. The purject is still not finished, 390 00:21:57.400 --> 00:22:01.319 the quantum scape for solid state battery and the energy 391 00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:04.599 war for gravity storage, because what we've seen in the 392 00:22:04.920 --> 00:22:08.559 solar industry is first you have like a multitude of 393 00:22:08.680 --> 00:22:14.519 potential different technology csp on crystalline, and then one technology 394 00:22:14.559 --> 00:22:17.880 emerged and literally kills the rest. And I know it's 395 00:22:17.880 --> 00:22:21.079 almost impossible to time the market. I see a great 396 00:22:21.119 --> 00:22:25.000 future five ten years, no problem, but I'm really concerned 397 00:22:25.000 --> 00:22:26.799 about the next eighteen months. 398 00:22:27.319 --> 00:22:30.200 A lot of the stuff arived renewables is done by 399 00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:32.920 the states, each of the individual states in the US 400 00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:36.079 those targets, and I don't think those will change. In 401 00:22:36.119 --> 00:22:39.079