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Speaker 1: On the Twitter and YouTube.

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Speaker 2: Jim Bob has just joined just in the nick of

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I'm not at Jim up to the stage.

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Speaker 1: Sure it is there a live link on YouTube?

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, you can just go to my page and

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you can just share what's happening in Jim Bob.

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Speaker 3: Hey, what's going on? Can you guys hear me?

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Speaker 4: Okay, yeah, yeah, we can hear you.

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Speaker 2: We just just went live as you as you jumped in,

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So all right cool, how are you both?

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Speaker 4: Welcome back to the channel.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 2: So just for those of the viewers that haven't caught

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out last interviews, if you guys want to just shut

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out your yourselves and what you're doing and what your

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channels are, starting with you Jimbob.

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Speaker 3: Yeah great. I'm made by Jim Bob. My channels made

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by Jimbob. My Instagram is made by Jim Bob. I'm

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a mostly a satirical cartoonist. I'm a weekly contributor to

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The Washington Examiner, and I do live streams just about

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every day on a variety of topics and whatnot.

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Speaker 1: And Jake yeah, Jay DIYer. I do a lot of

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breakdowns of everything from geopolitics to Hollywood film, symbolism, esoterica,

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we do comedic stuff. I do breakdowns of big geopolitical books,

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the global elite writings, and I host the fourth Hour

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of Alex Jones every Friday for the last four years.

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Speaker 4: Awesome.

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Speaker 2: So the reason why I wanted to get you guys

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in today is because I need some reinforcements when it

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comes to doing this. Jordan Peterson and Richard Dawkins debate interview.

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I don't know what would you guys call it. It

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was kind of just a thing, wasn't it.

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Speaker 1: Podcast?

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Speaker 3: I don't I don't know what it was?

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Speaker 5: A chat?

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Speaker 3: I mean Jay touched on it. It was It was

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interesting that Alex has become sort of like the chosen

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or inadvertently chosen, like mediator, moderator of these topics, which

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I don't I don't you know. I don't consider myself

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someone who's earned the position either, But it was interesting,

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like he's like now the default go to and he's

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like this young chap with these old guys chatting. I

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thought that was funny. Jay noticed that too during his dream.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure, and it was an interesting one.

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Speaker 2: I think the thing that went over my head was

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all the talking about symbolism, and I think we're just

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going to skip the whole part about memes at the

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start and then go into a little bit more of

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the back and forth. But for a lot of people,

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this was the sort of super.

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Speaker 6: Bowl of.

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Speaker 2: Sort of religious religious debates. What did you guys think

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about it overall? I mean, Jay, you did a massive

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stream on it. Did you think that this was something

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that was enlightening or did you find it frustrating? I

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personally found it a little bit frustrating at times.

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Speaker 1: A little bit of both. I thought that I was

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hoping for more of a debate, more of a butting

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of heads and really a critiquing of the positions. We

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had a little bit of that, but it reminded me

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a lot of the Matt Dillahunty Peterson debate from a

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while back, because we'll get these really you know, rhetorical

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flourishing back and forth type thing going on, especially with Peterson,

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and then he will get somebody kind of close to

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being on the ropes and then you'll back off. And

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I think that's the most frustrating thing about you know,

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when Jordan Peterson's doing a quasi debate. Same thing with

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the with the dill Honey situation, because there's two or

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three times where he really could have just made dil

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Honey look stupid. But maybe he's saving you know, the

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relationship or something like that. He thinks that it's better

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to be on good terms and if he makes him

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look stupid, then they won't discuss anymore. But I think overall,

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Peterson made a couple, you know, significant mistakes. I think

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that said, uh, Dawkins look really dumb. I think Peterson

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was a lot off, a lot smarter. And we also

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saw this new kind of like Vince McMahon Chad Peters.

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Speaker 3: Often like he's like leaning up to him.

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Speaker 1: He was like he's using chalk, He's using my sponsored

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chalk or something because he's like he's like getting heated,

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and like he looks like about the snap, you know,

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dropping off over the table and snap or next.

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Speaker 7: But yeah, Inva like sort of just like he's about

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to die.

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Speaker 1: But it was interesting but a little underwhelming.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, and Jimbob but he's famously sort of evasive

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about his views on Christianity and whether he believes that

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things are true or not. Yeah, I think that there

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was any more sort of insight into what Jordan Peterson's

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actual position is well, during this thing.

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Speaker 3: I think Jordan Peterson is drawn to symbology and metaphor,

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which is important and not absent in the Biblical view,

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but he has this really tough time. He ends up

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being sort of a naturalist in the end because when

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you when you when you corner him on something like miraculous,

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which there are tons of things considered miraculous, but even

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something as simple and as dogmatic as the virgin birth,

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He's like, well, it depends on birth, you know. He's

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like constantly reinventing some way that he could navigate through

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that door where he's not gonna seem to his audience,

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who are maybe more rationalist thinkers, they're not gonna he's

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not gonna scare them away. I feel like there's this

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weird tiptoeing, walking on eggshells, uh for Peterson to keep

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his base, which is kind of split between uh maybe

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even maybe not even an even split, but definitely split

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between sort of liberal, liberal leaning atheists and then sort

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of maybe hard Christians and then these soft Christians in between.

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He's kind of has them all, and I think he

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kind of protects them. Not to attribute motive it's just

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that it would makes sense from his position where he

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doesn't take things too far as opposed to just biting

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the bullet, right, just just bite the bullet if you

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think a god position is rational at all, if you

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hold a position, I'm not sure why biting the bullet

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on a couple of subsequent miracles post creation is somehow,

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you know, controversial. It's it's bizarre. It's bizarre to watch

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that same thing with Ben Shapiro. He was famously asked

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by Joe Rogan do you believe in miracles? And he

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essentially said, well, yeah, I believe in the kind that

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have naturalistic explanations, and you're like, that's that's really not

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the position. You got to bite the bullet and just

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be okay saying yes, I believe miracles exist, they don't

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always comport with a physical laws of physics or a

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regularity of nature.

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Speaker 4: Do you reckon that?

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Speaker 2: There's something to do with the fact that Jordan Peterson

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spent much of his life in the sort of academic

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world in the sciences that that he doesn't want to

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admit that, for example, miracles.

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Speaker 4: Are real, because that's that's his background.

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Speaker 1: Jay, Yeah, I definitely think there's a huge component. We

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often forget that, and he brings us up a few

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times in this discussion about these sort of rabbit trails

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of you know, obscure sort of research that he's done

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on various types. I forget even what he's what he's

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parts of the brain or something, and hypothalamus research he's done,

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and and so you know, he does have this one

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foot in signs in the domain of science and peer

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review and all that. Maybe he thinks that a lot

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of the audience would you know, no longer find him

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credible if he admits the miraculous. But the weird part,

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as I think, you know Jim Bob saying, is that

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given all the other stuff that he's saying and arguing, like,

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that's not that much further down the road, you know

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what I mean, It's like you're already kind of saying

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that there's these archetypes and they have and I mean,

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one thing that was different I noticed in this discussion

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versus say that the personality lectures that he did maybe

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ten years ago, because I very recently went through many

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of those into tons of notes. You know, at that

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time he was very reticent to talk about metaphysics at all.

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He would shy away from anything metaphysical. He wanted to

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keep it in the domain of psychology. And maybe that's

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just because it was used in a class. But now

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he's like.

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Speaker 5: Oh, ontology, metaphysics, you know, spiritual.

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Speaker 1: It's like we got It's like we have a new

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clone Vince McMahon metaphysical Peterson, which is a better version

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of Crying Peterson from a year. Yeah, but it's still, like,

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like Jim Bob said, it's like, you're already pretty much

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in the domain of emitting things that the people that

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you don't want to alienate already consider crazy. So like,

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why do you even care about alienating a bunch of

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these academic idiots.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I see. I kind of I agree

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with that, And I think again, he has this, he

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has this habit of like making really poetic accounts for symbols,

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and he's all he's always he's always close to almost

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pre supping, if you will, the opponent, but he's just

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he kind of doesn't push the button for the elevator,

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and you're like, dude, you're already there.

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Speaker 1: Just like, just.

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Speaker 3: Go for it, just go for the jugular. And I

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know it's annoying. And I know it's basically the stick

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in the wheel of every debate, but it's a necessary

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stick in the wheel. And he just kind of doesn't

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really He kind of throws stuff at the wheel like

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little dust.

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Speaker 4: Have us.

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Speaker 3: Just put the stick in the wheel.

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Speaker 2: Bro, Yeah, I kind of want to focus on that today.

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So we're going to review the actual conversation shortly, and

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I want to review and you guys can just tell

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me when to pause when you think there's a point

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to be made by Jordan Peterson, and especially with pre

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supping as well. And just before we go there, Jay,

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maybe do you want to give us a bit of

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a sort of rundown about what presuppositional apologetics is and

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how it can be used effectively.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. This is basically a unique approach to the domain

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of apologetics, which is which means giving a defense for

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your faith or for your beliefs. And it's a kind

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of indirect style of argumentation first, where you're not so

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much concerned with piling up evidences or data from sense,

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experience or whatever. You're taking a roundabout approach to where

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you're going to compare two worldviews as a whole. So

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it's a holistic approach to impairing systems and competing beliefs

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and whatnot to see on that grand kind of scale,

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which worldview can make sense of the basic components of

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our belief systems. So we all have, I would argue,

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basic beliefs about epistemology, which is what we know or

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how we go about proving or grounding our knowledge claims

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and beliefs. We have some kind of ethic which relates

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to rights and wrongs, morals, aesthetics, et cetera. And we

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have some view about metaphysics, which just has to do

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with what exists, what's real, what's not real, angels, souls,

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et cetera. Those three things make up what we oftentimes

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call a worldview, and they're kind of loosely the branches

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of philosophy. And so when you kind of think about

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those three things linked together.

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Speaker 6: They.

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Speaker 1: Everybody has some worldview. But the key thing about presubsisitional apologetics,

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or what's called the transcendental argument for God is you're

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kind of of taking those three components and you're saying, Okay,

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whose system whose world views can account for the basic

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beliefs that everyone has in those three three domains.

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Speaker 4: And so when we don't do that.

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Speaker 2: It's sort of just it's just like the conversation starts

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at a level where we just sort of grant that octe.

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Yeah yeah, and so where we just grand morality, we

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grant ethics and all these sorts of things.

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Speaker 1: And the problem with the when we don't do that

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approach is that you oftentimes end up just kind of

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throwing competing claims back and forth. You know, I'm over here,

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you know, I believe in this theological doctrine. The atheist

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believes in his doctrines. We keep we throw science papers

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and claims and facts and this researcher and what he

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wrote this book, that book, and we don't really get

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anywhere because it's just because everyone's reading the information the

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data from their paradigm. So this is a more direct,

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ironically indirect approach through questioning the paradigm itself.

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Speaker 2: Okay, cool, cool, We're going to get out to the

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first bit just after reading a few super chats. We're

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gonna read probably tens five or ten and up or

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something like that. Rachel Wilson in the chat says, good

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to see all my favorite smart boys whose names start

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with jay on one stream yep, there's the reason why

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we didn't invite Andrew, and that's because his name doesn't

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start with Jay.

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Speaker 4: So very simple, Jen M all right, Cool.

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Speaker 2: If you guys have any super chats, feel free to

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send them in Cool.

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Speaker 4: All right, let's get this started, fellas.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to start with this bit here, and if

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you guys feel like there's a good point to be made,

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just let me know and and I'll pause it.

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Speaker 8: I mean, one of the things I wanted to explore

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with you because I think this is an idea that's

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at the core of the culture.

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Speaker 2: Just quickly, guys, just chuck in the chat. Why if

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you're happy with one point five why if you're happy

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with one point five speed? I'll put it down to

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one point two five for now though, because might be

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a little bit fast. With Peterson's new Chad sort of persona.

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Speaker 8: For conflicts, the post modern type seem to have stumbled

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onto something which I actually think is true. And they're

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not the only discipline that's come to this realization, because

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you can see it emerging in neuroscience and in AI

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and in robotics as well, that we see the world

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of facts through something that when described as a story.

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Because we have to prioritize our perceptions, we have to

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prioritize facts. And as far as I can tell, a

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story is a verbal account of of how our perceptions

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and the facts that we encounter are prioritized. So, for example,

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when you go see a movie, the movie has a hero,

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and what the writers do is they show you how

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the hero prioritizes his perceptions, what he attends to, and

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how he acts, and you derive from that the story

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of his life and his ethic, and the idea that

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we have a story that we have to organize our

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perceptions in priority, and that the description of that organization

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is a story. That's a very revolutionary idea. And I

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think the postmodernists got that right. And I think that's

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why we have a culture war going on, at least

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in part is because idea that we see the world.

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Speaker 1: This relates directly to Tag. And this is actually a

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really crucial point, and it's one of Peter. Tag is

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the same thing as presep or apologetics, or the idea

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that the arguments that we might make for God are

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best handled at that paradigm worldview level. Because it's a

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paradigm worldview question, and this is One of the key

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insights that Peterson does have and I think pushes a

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lot which I do like, and that's this idea that

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this model of how humans operate and understand the world

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in a story beginning, middle and end, that's a much

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more natural and much more consistent way that we as

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humans read the world. We almost seem to be constituted

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this way to read the world that way, rather than

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the idea of reading the world the way the Dawkins thinks,

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as if it's all abstracted data. There's a place for

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abstracted data and the scientific research. But what Dawkins would

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think is that the scientific method as a as a tool,

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I would believe is actually a grand narrative explanation. It

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can tell you about everything. It's the best way to

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go about knowing anything. And Peterson is countering that, I

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think you're in a brilliant way by pointing out that no,

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actually the best way to understand the world is like

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a story, and that's why humans have always understood the

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world in some story.

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Speaker 3: For him, right, I would add that him correctly meeting

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Dawkins is where where he's at is everything story? Everything's

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meme based The question I always ask the Dawkins types

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or the Dawkins disciples, is why ought we pursue a

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true story as opposed to a story that just functionally works?

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And they could never answer that because if you ask

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them from their view why ought we pursue truth? They're

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they're going to have to reduce it to some sort

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of pragmatic, pragmatic or utility approach, which ends up being arbitrary.

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The Christian can say, fine, my goal is xyz, my

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goal is theosis. That's my that's the story, my truth.

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You could just kind of my truth them back, and

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they have no place to go, and that's a it's

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not just about kind of steel manning Hawkins and saying

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that's that's right. Everything is in a story base and

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through that paradigm, through that heuristic, he might use the

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term what worldview accounts for the fact that humans experience

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life as like a story itself, which is Jay's pointing to.

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And obviously the naturalistic paradigm can't because the natural paradigm

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has to include theology, even if it's false, as a

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valid story.

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Speaker 2: Right, right, So you think that because Dawkins talks a

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lot about truth, but he's just talking about one type

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of truth here, and he's sort of detached from Jordan

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Peterson's type of narrative truth and the stories that we

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that we tell ourselves. And there's a sort of relationship

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between archetypes and memes as well, and this is why

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Jordan Peterson attacks that part of Dawkins scholarship.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and more people on in that sort of like

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academia higher thought philosophy nerds across you know, people who

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typically are crossing their legs in their chairs. They are

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all sort of admitting and coming over to the side

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the Weinstein's that there's something very important about metaphorical truth,

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and they're still looking at it through the lens of

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it's like a technology, though, which.

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Speaker 2: Is something about about the way that about the way

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that our ancestors and the ancients used to communicate. Do

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you think that we're maybe a little bit detached in

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the sort of modern materialistic world from the way in

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which they actually used to communicate when they when they

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wrote stories, and do you think that this was just

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a completely different way of of getting to truth rather

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than the sort of scientific truth that we tend to

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focus on these days.

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Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, I think that you can see that in

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liturgy and the Orthodox Church. I mean, the means and

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modes of communication of information and revelation and history there

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are very foreign to the way that you know, modern

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man thinks. I think that's a key example of a contrast.

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Speaker 4: M Absolutely, we'll carry on with this.

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Speaker 2: And it's interesting segueing into this because Dawkins starts to

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say that Peterson sort of drunk on stories, so through.

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Speaker 8: A story, or that the story is a description of

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the structure through which we see the world. I think

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that's accurate because we have to prioritize our perceptions.

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Speaker 5: That's a tricky problem.

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Speaker 6: While I would prioritize my perceptions like this, the fact

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that I care about are the fact that are true

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and have evidence going for them. And I'm not that

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interested in symbols. I think Dr Peterson, you're drunk on symbols.

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Speaker 5: Yes, you mentioned I've heard you. I've heard that comment.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, yes, I mean, for example, I've I've I counted

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up in your book We Who Wrestled with God a

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number of references to Cain. There are three hundred and

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fifty six references to Cain in the in the book,

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and twenty references to the descendants of Cain. You're obsessed

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with Kine because Cain is symbolic of evil. All the

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evil in the world you more or less blame Cain for.

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And this is Cain. I mean, you don't believe Caine

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actually exists.

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Speaker 5: I presume since I joined forces with the Daily I

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think of Kane as well.

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Speaker 6: Existed.

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Speaker 8: I think the pattern that Cain represents is an eternal pattern.

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It's a higher level of existence that's different. I realized

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there are Kine types who exist.

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Speaker 6: There are Cane types. Caine himself is a game of

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way where you say in your book Cain and Abel

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were the first humans to be born in the natural way.

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Now that that betrays you as as as we're pretending

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you think they really existed, because you wouldn't have said

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they were born in a natural way unless you were

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muddling up facts with symbols there, because you don't think

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that that Cana Nabel existed.

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Speaker 5: Well, I don't. What do I think about Cana and Nabel?

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Speaker 8: I said, I think the pattern that they represent always exists,

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always exists.

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Speaker 6: A pattern that they represent, the conflict between brothers, the

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rival and between brothers. This is a fundamental pattern which

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which yes, it's something that that's there, But I care

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about facts. Did they exist or did they not exist?

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Speaker 8: Well, I can imagine this situation where when the story

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was originated that it referred to two actual brothers. But

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as the stories propagate across time, as they mutate, as

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they adapt, let's say, to the structure of human memory,

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they deepen and they become broader, and so then they

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become emblematic not only of the pattern of conflict that

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might characterize the original two brothers that the story was about,

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but about the conflict between brothers as such, and then

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the more fundamental levels of conflict that exist within human beings,

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which is what you see in more sophisticated literature. It's like,

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the Biblical accounts speak a fact in a factual manner

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upon occasion, but the Biblical accounts also speak poetically and

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metaphorically and allegorically, and people who are sophisticated in biblical

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analysis have known this for centuries. Biblical literists generally suffer

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from the problem that they don't even know what it

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means to be literalists. There's lots of unsophisticated the ways

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of approaching get text.

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Speaker 6: Okay, let's see what the rest of things about But

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I suppose I'm a literalist. I mean, and you give

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the demo when you say cater Abel were the first

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two was in a boil, in a natural way.

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Speaker 5: Speaking allegorically, they're within the confines of the text.

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Speaker 8: I mean what I meant by that was that the

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way the story lays itself out is that Adam and

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Eve are created by God, and so they're they're not

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They're not they don't they're not emblematic of the pattern

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of human beings that exist in fallen history. Within the

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confines of the text. The first two people who are genuine,

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who aren't creations of the divine, are canaanable, and so

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for me, they're emblematic of the patterns of conflict that

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rip people apart in the world of history, in the

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world of normal history.

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Speaker 6: Professor Dolkins, I know you take particular umbrage with that statement.

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Speaker 1: Was sort of opposed to go for it, Jay, Yeah,

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I mean I was actually surprised that when Peterson did

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explain this part it was pretty much correct. I mean,

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maybe would have changed the wording on a couple places there,

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but I mean he did admit that. Okay, yeah, there

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were at some point. I'm sure two brothers, But he

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was trying to really stress the point that the story

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becomes almost perennial and archetypal because it encapsulates as soon

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as we have the fall, the very beginning of human

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division and conflict embodied in these two characters. So I

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thought his explanation to Dawkins, it seems that he's actually

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trying to get Dawkins to understand that the real meaning

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of this story is beyond just this question of was

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there a guy named kan? Was there going to be

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able to meaning? The story is supposed to resonate for

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cultures and for you know, in this bigger metaphysical, archetypal way,

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And he keeps trying to get Dawkins to understand that.

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I think on the basis, as you said at the

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beginning of the discussion, that they have on the base

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of memes and archetypes, Peterson being a you know, union student,

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and then trying to try to find an inroad there.

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When I did my breakdown, I mentioned the four layers

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of scripture. This is a traditional way that the texts

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are interpreted. You have the literal, you have the allegorical,

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you have the analogical, and you have the tropological I

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won't list all of that, but the logical is the

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moral sense. And Peterson sees the moral sense layer as

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the mechanism of the doorway that he might reach or

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watch people in general. And then maybe he thinks that

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through that he can get them to other layers, like

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understanding the allegories or whatever. But the problem is that, well,

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we'll get to the problems later. I won't ramble all day,

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but I thought he did a pretty good job here

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of actually rebutting and stating what his point was. It's

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just amazing that throughout the entire discussion, Dawkins doesn't actually

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seem at all interested in understanding or caring about resonances

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of archetypes and patterns and history tradition. He really just

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wants to restate his sort of basic bitch empiricism.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he was genuinely going to morph into Shania Twain

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at one point. The amount that he said that doesn't

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impress me much. Yeah, I was a pros frustrating. It

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just seems like he keeps on straw maning Jordan Peterson's

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position in a way. I mean, he he just wants

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to know, do you actually think that these things happen

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in history and sort of refuses to engage with it.

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Speaker 4: So, yeah, Jim, but what have you on that pot?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I've thought that Peterson's constantly pointing to the value.

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He places a superior value to the meaning of interactions,

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while Dawkins holds a position where the only real value

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is explaining molecularly or through physics, what the what the

474
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,960
interaction between things are. In his view, it's ridiculous because

475
00:24:27,079 --> 00:24:30,759
Canaan Abele, let's say, you granted actual from his he

476
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,799
just accepted there were actual people. From his view, this

477
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,240
conflict the meaning that Jordan Peterson's trying to convey what

478
00:24:38,279 --> 00:24:42,400
it means to be, you know, post fall Man conflict,

479
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,400
dealing with good and evil, this kind of stuff your

480
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,240
what's your higher purpose? He's always concerned with that, which

481
00:24:48,279 --> 00:24:51,480
I appreciate. Dawkins from his view, has to say all

482
00:24:51,519 --> 00:24:55,119
of it's just an evolutionary mechanism unfolding, and what you

483
00:24:55,200 --> 00:25:00,799
call conflict is merely molecules against molecules whose molecules win. Well,

484
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,680
that's absurd, of course, right, because it tells you no direction,

485
00:25:03,839 --> 00:25:05,440
it tells you no ethical stance.

486
00:25:05,759 --> 00:25:05,880
Speaker 4: Uh.

487
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:10,079
Speaker 3: Basically, it's just whatever happens, happens, force wins, brute force wins,

488
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:14,640
and uh I wish Peterson, in addition to his poetry,

489
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,839
would just push it back on Dawkins once, why ought

490
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,799
we just look at things as they are descriptively, as

491
00:25:21,839 --> 00:25:26,680
opposed to deriving some meaning from it that's more important

492
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:31,160
to us? Richard Dawkins would say something like because I

493
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:32,559
believe in truth or whatever?

494
00:25:32,599 --> 00:25:33,319
Speaker 1: And you say.

495
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,759
Speaker 3: Why, like why do you? Why do you believe in truth?

496
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:40,319
Why ought we pursue true descriptions of things? He won't

497
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:44,799
be able to answer this outside of reducing it to workability. Well,

498
00:25:45,039 --> 00:25:47,079
then you can accomplish your ghos. Well, what if my

499
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,359
goal is to start, you know, start a religion that

500
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:54,119
denies the value of empiricism, you know, a net balance,

501
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,279
and pursue some other thing. He couldn't. He couldn't really

502
00:25:57,279 --> 00:25:59,240
battle it back, right, He'd have to hiss at you, like,

503
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,440
you know, like jays impressed impression.

504
00:26:02,319 --> 00:26:04,680
Speaker 4: The Kremlin, Dawkins impression.

505
00:26:07,759 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 1: I might get one of those out of today's discussion.

506
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:10,680
We'll see.

507
00:26:13,039 --> 00:26:16,359
Speaker 2: Was turned into some sort of like unearthly creature there, Jay.

508
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,920
Speaker 4: Before, thank you, thank you, guys.

509
00:26:19,039 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 2: We got thirteen hundred people in the chat at the moment,

510
00:26:21,039 --> 00:26:23,920
make sure to like the video and are you guys live?

511
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 4: Are you both live?

512
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 3: I am co streaming or whatever you call re streaming.

513
00:26:27,799 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 4: Yeah. Cool.

514
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:29,559
Speaker 2: If you guys, if you want to read out some

515
00:26:29,559 --> 00:26:32,000
some Bob chats at some point, and Jay, if you

516
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:33,640
want to read out some super chests, just let me know.

517
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:38,440
Speaker 9: Let's carry on cana Abel with the first normally born

518
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:42,279
human beings. But I think of underpor Pearson correctly, there

519
00:26:42,279 --> 00:26:43,880
are things that can be sort of true within a story.

520
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:45,839
It's true that Sherlock Holmes lives at two to one

521
00:26:45,839 --> 00:26:48,200
be Baker Street, And as far as I understand, that's

522
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,119
maybe what you mean by that. The truth in the

523
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,599
matter of cana Nabel being the first naturally born, it's

524
00:26:53,599 --> 00:26:54,319
internal in.

525
00:26:54,319 --> 00:26:55,200
Speaker 5: The context of the story.

526
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 8: They're the first two spirits or patterns you could think of,

527
00:26:57,799 --> 00:27:02,480
patterns of perception and action, Yes, that characterize human existence

528
00:27:02,519 --> 00:27:04,839
in the fallen world, right, So they're emblematic of what

529
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,839
happens in history outside of the whatever is meant by

530
00:27:07,839 --> 00:27:08,920
the pre existent paradise.

531
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 9: At the same time, you must know, I know this

532
00:27:11,279 --> 00:27:12,839
comes up at the time when somebody says, but the

533
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:14,720
pain enable really exists, and I know that you want

534
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:16,200
to say that the.

535
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 5: Story, which is a silly question.

536
00:27:18,759 --> 00:27:21,400
Speaker 8: I think it's like asking whether Raskolnikov existed in Crime

537
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:23,720
and Punishment, Like it's not It's not a trivial question

538
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:24,720
because you.

539
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:26,319
Speaker 5: Can answer yes, and you can answer no.

540
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:28,400
Speaker 8: You can say, well, there was no such specific person

541
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,880
as Raskolnikov, but you it's it's not a helpful question

542
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,880
because the reason that Darstyevsky's Crime and Punishment is a

543
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:39,359
masterpiece is because Raskolnikov was everywhere in Russia when Dostievsky

544
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:40,279
wrote Crime and Punishment.

545
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 5: Raskolnikov is hyper real, not not real.

546
00:27:43,279 --> 00:27:45,160
Speaker 9: To be clear, is that how you feel about Caine

547
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,039
enable that that that is to say, an identified hyper

548
00:27:48,079 --> 00:27:52,759
real Homo sapiens called Cain's.

549
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:52,759
Speaker 5: In a sense, it's irrelevant to me.

550
00:27:54,519 --> 00:27:56,920
Speaker 8: Even if they were real, Like we don't know anything

551
00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:00,240
about them, even if they weren't weren't well, I said,

552
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,799
it could have been the case that when the story originated,

553
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:05,599
way back when it originated, that the first people that

554
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,480
were described by the first person who generated the seeds

555
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,119
of the Canaanable story were referring to actual people. It

556
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,640
doesn't matter, because the text has been compressed and modified

557
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:16,960
over a vast span of time, and it's created all

558
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:18,960
sorts of meanings that certainly weren't part and parcel of

559
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:20,039
whatever the original extort was.

560
00:28:20,079 --> 00:28:23,400
Speaker 6: As a point, alex was certainly then the condines of

561
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,079
the story, and dost Asky was a great writer. What

562
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,160
makes you think the writers of Genesis were a great writer?

563
00:28:28,279 --> 00:28:29,680
I mean, who were they? We don't we know nothing

564
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:30,160
about them?

565
00:28:30,559 --> 00:28:33,039
Speaker 8: Well, well, I think they were great writers because I

566
00:28:33,039 --> 00:28:36,279
think I understand the patterning of the stories and what

567
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:38,920
it points to. I think the idea, for example, that

568
00:28:39,319 --> 00:28:44,720
canaan Able are emblematic of too opposed patterns of adaptation

569
00:28:44,799 --> 00:28:48,440
to the world is brilliant. It's almost brilliant, beyond imagining,

570
00:28:48,519 --> 00:28:51,319
especially because the story is so insanely compressed, and it's

571
00:28:51,319 --> 00:28:54,799
certainly evident to me as a clinician that the patterns

572
00:28:54,799 --> 00:28:56,960
that are portrayed in the story of Canaanabel played themselves

573
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:58,519
out in the real world continually.

574
00:28:58,519 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 5: I'm terribly, terribly.

575
00:29:00,079 --> 00:29:02,279
Speaker 6: You think the author of that story in Genesis was

576
00:29:02,319 --> 00:29:03,240
a literary genius.

577
00:29:06,599 --> 00:29:09,079
Speaker 8: I think that there's a spirit of literary genius at

578
00:29:09,079 --> 00:29:12,839
work across millennia. Crafting that story so that it has

579
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,200
almost an infinite depth. How that relates to the original

580
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,640
author or sequential authors, I don't know, because it's lost

581
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:19,559
in the seeds of time.

582
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 5: It's lost in that it's lost in history.

583
00:29:21,799 --> 00:29:24,839
Speaker 6: So the story involved saying the story like, I mean, yes,

584
00:29:25,039 --> 00:29:26,640
that's interesting if it evolved.

585
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 8: To match the contours of the human memory. That's exactly

586
00:29:29,519 --> 00:29:31,880
it is that these stories, that's part of their archetypal nature. Like,

587
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,680
so they have an emotional and motivational expression, but as

588
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,200
they propagated across time, they also evolve, so they're maximally memorable,

589
00:29:38,559 --> 00:29:40,880
and they're maximuly memorable for a biological reason.

590
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:42,799
Speaker 6: Well, that's very interesting if they'd been ready to get

591
00:29:42,839 --> 00:29:44,559
involved little bit time, if you couldn't if you could

592
00:29:44,559 --> 00:29:46,880
actually trace successive manuscripts, and you can't do that.

593
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:51,559
Speaker 1: I mean, now I'd like to injector because this is

594
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,920
a really you know, funny point. I think about Dawkins,

595
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,680
because Dawkins isn't a textual scholar. He's in no position

596
00:29:59,799 --> 00:30:05,279
to a judge anything about the biblical texts. We see

597
00:30:05,319 --> 00:30:08,160
atheists do this all the time, which now you can

598
00:30:08,279 --> 00:30:11,880
have atheists who do textual studies, but by the own

599
00:30:12,079 --> 00:30:14,720
their own standards, because they're always requiring these sort of

600
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,839
you know, academic strictures about you know, who's qualified to

601
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,039
speak on these issues. Richard Dawkins isn't qualified to speak

602
00:30:21,039 --> 00:30:25,200
on textual veracity, textual quality, et cetera. So it's odd

603
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,440
to me that he would go that line of pointing

604
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:29,599
out that you can't trace the manuscript. How does he

605
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:31,880
know you can't trace the manuscripts? And in fact, I

606
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,119
think at this point he meant he gets confused between

607
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:38,359
thinking what the sceptuagen is versus the the masoretic text.

608
00:30:39,359 --> 00:30:41,480
But it was I think a mistake for Peterson to

609
00:30:41,559 --> 00:30:47,039
equate canaan Able to Reskolnikov, because at once, I mean earlier,

610
00:30:47,079 --> 00:30:49,759
he had admitted that, well, there probably were two brothers

611
00:30:49,799 --> 00:30:52,160
at one point, which is the origin of the story.

612
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,319
But then he kind of went down this Protestant line

613
00:30:54,359 --> 00:30:58,400
of reasoning that this story had gained all these accretions.

614
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,319
I don't know what that means. I mean, yeah, it's

615
00:31:01,359 --> 00:31:04,119
true that the story maybe has evolved in other cultures

616
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,759
in other ways, but you know, I think it would

617
00:31:06,799 --> 00:31:10,160
have been a lot better to just answer Dawkins again

618
00:31:10,279 --> 00:31:13,599
and say, yeah, there probably were two brothers at some point,

619
00:31:14,559 --> 00:31:17,599
but I'm talking about the archetypal meaning of this story,

620
00:31:18,519 --> 00:31:21,160
and why are you in any position. By the way,

621
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,119
he's not a literary scholar either, so Dawkins is not

622
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,200
in a position to say that it's not a literary

623
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:27,599
genius story either.

624
00:31:28,559 --> 00:31:31,039
Speaker 3: Also, I don't think it was a good good move

625
00:31:31,119 --> 00:31:37,000
to play with Dawkins' worldview and throw him some branches

626
00:31:37,039 --> 00:31:40,839
by saying evolve or this kind of stuff, because I

627
00:31:40,839 --> 00:31:44,759
think it would be stronger to say, whether it's Canaan

628
00:31:44,759 --> 00:31:48,160
able or other parables or other stories actual and metaphorical,

629
00:31:48,599 --> 00:31:51,279
that those things that the meaning and the value of

630
00:31:51,279 --> 00:31:55,599
those things as stories as lessons are in fact timeless.

631
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:59,119
They're the things that that maybe wouldn't evolve and would

632
00:31:59,119 --> 00:32:03,119
still apply as true or meaningful today regardless of modernity.

633
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,319
That this is what's kind of funny about Dawkins is

634
00:32:06,359 --> 00:32:08,839
he might say the truth is what comports to reality.

635
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,359
If it's the case that biblical stories, the Biblical narrative

636
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,119
describes the wholeness of the human reality, not just the

637
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:18,400
physical world, right, Because they always say, well does it

638
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,680
describe physics, and you go, well, no, we're talking about

639
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,960
the overall the holistic experience a human being has, in

640
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:31,599
this case as a man. Christianity points to describes and

641
00:32:31,759 --> 00:32:37,880
prescribes the human experience and how to live basically, and

642
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,000
that's that's not just something that describes the bark of

643
00:32:41,039 --> 00:32:45,920
a tree or molecules engaging. So what this always comes

644
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:50,319
up when someone says, show me x exists. It's almost

645
00:32:50,359 --> 00:32:52,799
one hundred percent the case. Jay, you've probably run into

646
00:32:52,799 --> 00:32:56,880
this more than me. When they say exist. From dawkins view,

647
00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:01,359
they're really talking about something physical. Always almost always physical.

648
00:33:01,559 --> 00:33:03,119
Speaker 1: It always assumes they're a materialist.

649
00:33:03,119 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 3: Occurredim right, right, and Peterson's denying it. But this is

650
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:08,240
why it ends up being frustrating, because you've got to

651
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,920
get to the core. Like Jay said, it's paradigm versus paradigm.

652
00:33:12,279 --> 00:33:16,279
It's not particular. Let's let me analyze the particular Canaanable

653
00:33:16,359 --> 00:33:18,960
story from this view, and you look at it from

654
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,200
your naturalistic view. We have to look at the views

655
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,720
themselves as wholes and see if they actually make sense.

656
00:33:25,839 --> 00:33:29,400
And Dawkin's view doesn't make sense. But but Jordan ever

657
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:33,440
pushes in that presupper style. Really he kind of flirts

658
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:35,400
with it, but just do it.

659
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 2: What would be some of the key questions in these

660
00:33:38,279 --> 00:33:40,559
exchanges that you think that Jordan Peterson would do well

661
00:33:40,599 --> 00:33:40,920
to ask.

662
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 3: I would ask something very simple. It's almost a cheap

663
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,160
shot at this point. I actually learned this from Jay.

664
00:33:47,599 --> 00:33:50,599
I just ask him, is science or empiricism the best

665
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:55,000
way to truth? Just trap him. He will say yes impulsively. Well,

666
00:33:55,039 --> 00:33:57,559
he might stall and say, well, it depends on what

667
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:01,200
you mean by truth. Okay, fine, However, he's going to

668
00:34:01,279 --> 00:34:04,839
describe truth in his paradigm the statement empiricism or science

669
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,480
is the best way to truth. That statement, if it's

670
00:34:07,519 --> 00:34:11,320
a truth, statement can't be justified or validated through the

671
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,480
scientific method or empiricism. So he's already outside of his

672
00:34:14,559 --> 00:34:17,599
paradigm by stating it. That's a trap, but it does work.

673
00:34:18,159 --> 00:34:21,599
I wish Peterson would get practice in more of these

674
00:34:21,679 --> 00:34:28,000
direct drives to absurdity, you know, which are tactical and useful.

675
00:34:28,039 --> 00:34:30,440
Even if they're annoying to hear all the time, they

676
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,159
really are useful because they trap the opponent.

677
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,119
Speaker 2: And it's interesting because later on in the debate, I

678
00:34:36,159 --> 00:34:38,000
think that they do sort of have this exchange a

679
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,440
little bit where Dawkins is sort of saying, well, you know,

680
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,840
we can measure science right up until the millimeter, and

681
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,400
then these stories you can't really measure them. So I mean,

682
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:47,760
if he does say that in the best way to

683
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,880
truth is because you can measure science so accurately, then

684
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:51,800
what's the response to that.

685
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:53,199
Speaker 5: Oh?

686
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 3: Well, the fundamental distinction here, Jake is the statement science

687
00:34:58,039 --> 00:35:00,840
is the best way to truth. You couldn't actually measure

688
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:03,159
truth in a beaker or anything. That's the point is

689
00:35:03,199 --> 00:35:09,440
that he has to appeal to some metaphysics, some transcendental things,

690
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,960
things are immaterial that can't be captured as items in

691
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,400
the world. He's already using those things, so Peterson just

692
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,199
has to push him on. Well, you know, you reject

693
00:35:19,199 --> 00:35:23,159
this whole category of things inside of theology, religion, Christianity,

694
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,079
and everything else, and yet in your own system you

695
00:35:26,119 --> 00:35:28,360
appeal to an a ton of things that are not

696
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:35,199
material or physical. And so some of those things information knowledge,

697
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,400
meaning the laws of thought, the mind.

698
00:35:38,519 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 1: He could never just as mathematical objects.

699
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 3: The relations is also between these things. For instance, a

700
00:35:47,039 --> 00:35:51,079
naturalist has to have the regularity of nature to then

701
00:35:51,159 --> 00:35:57,480
describe these kind of lawlike behaviors between objects. But the

702
00:35:57,559 --> 00:36:01,000
lawlike behaviors don't actually come from the objects, like you

703
00:36:01,039 --> 00:36:03,000
know what I mean, Like you couldn't look at an

704
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:07,519
object and then show me where its behavior emerges as

705
00:36:07,559 --> 00:36:11,320
physical things in itself, right, right, So they have to

706
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:15,519
grant themselves first there's regularity. They have to assume the

707
00:36:15,559 --> 00:36:18,519
regularity in the future to then do induction, which is

708
00:36:18,559 --> 00:36:25,760
the basically the foundation of their entire epistemology is is induction,

709
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:31,880
which from their own view they admit, is just basically probability, right,

710
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:33,480
it's the faith there.

711
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, interesting, this is why I enjoy having these conversations.

712
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:39,519
And if you guys aren't following Jay and Jim Bob,

713
00:36:39,559 --> 00:36:41,800
head over to their channels because I've stolen more arguments

714
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:43,800
from you guys than I could possibly count, to be honest,

715
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,360
take them. So we're gonna read out a few super

716
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,639
chats here, guys. Benjamin for five Bucks says, love these

717
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:54,960
love conbos like this, because we got minds aiming at

718
00:36:55,519 --> 00:36:58,880
governing dynamics, the stuff that actually matters.

719
00:36:59,199 --> 00:37:02,159
Speaker 4: I can never read. Yeah, read so good?

720
00:37:04,199 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 2: Since there, Hypocrite for five Bucks says, after all these years,

721
00:37:08,039 --> 00:37:11,519
Jordan B. Peterson is still basically an atheist, that likes Christianity.

722
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,000
I don't get why he doesn't take the leap of

723
00:37:14,039 --> 00:37:16,639
faith and accept Christ. Jay, what do you think about that?

724
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, who knows what the holdbacks or the

725
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:23,760
motives or the questions might be. You know, it could

726
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:28,199
be what you mentioned earlier, scientific you know, angle that

727
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:31,119
he has. It could be you know.

728
00:37:31,159 --> 00:37:33,880
Speaker 3: I think it's a clause in his Daily Wire County.

729
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 2: I mean, you know what, I think that it's actually

730
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:41,840
I've heard him say a few times that he thinks

731
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,119
that the idea that Christ is who he says he

732
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:46,880
is is absolutely terrifying. And I kind of do get

733
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,599
that as somebody who's pretty new to Christianity myself. It

734
00:37:49,679 --> 00:37:51,760
is a pretty terrifying thought when you think about the

735
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,239
accountability that comes with it, and when you think about

736
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,119
the magnitude of what that claim actually means and what

737
00:37:57,679 --> 00:38:00,280
actually means to get to the bottom of truth. So

738
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,079
I can kind of understand why it's terrifying also liberating

739
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:05,519
at the same time. But does that make sense?

740
00:38:06,119 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's probably partab Yeah, absolutely, probably, that's probably

741
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:10,440
the rude of it.

742
00:38:10,519 --> 00:38:14,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, So Benjamin for five bucks says, you guys are

743
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:18,119
way smarter than JP or Dawkins. Why are you watching this?

744
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,719
The artist formerly known as Clyde for ten Bucks says,

745
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,440
keep up the good workfellows. God bless to you and

746
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:31,360
everyone watching YouTube. Bro, since your hypocrite says the worst

747
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:34,719
part about jbp's allegorical viewers that he concedes ground to

748
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,360
atheists that they have the facts, even though it shouldn't

749
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:37,880
be granted at all.

750
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:39,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, well that's kind of what we're talking about a

751
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:40,000
little bit today.

752
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 2: MKG says, Jay's Dawkins impression is hilarious.

753
00:38:46,079 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 4: Absolutely it is.

754
00:38:47,039 --> 00:38:49,880
Speaker 1: Thank you and again, if you're good, maybe by the

755
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:50,760
end of this you'll see it.

756
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, slow boy Whiteboard says, glad to see Jay and

757
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:57,360
Jim Jim bob on we need a battle of impersonations.

758
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,559
Speaker 1: I think we absolutely a debate between Oran Peter.

759
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 3: We could just do our own debate just the band

760
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:06,519
in the review.

761
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:10,159
Speaker 2: There you go request in my mind right there, requesting, Okay,

762
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,679
we're gonna have to do it, Fallasa Jay, do you

763
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:13,360
want to be paid?

764
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:14,559
Speaker 4: Do you want to be Dolkins?

765
00:39:14,559 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 1: And that's Peterson?

766
00:39:17,519 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, okay, you started off with with a with

767
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:22,679
a with a point plays Kimbo.

768
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:26,079
Speaker 3: Well that's that that's the thing you just said it.

769
00:39:26,159 --> 00:39:29,639
You know, you just said that the allegorical could very

770
00:39:29,679 --> 00:39:32,159
well play a part in in in the in the

771
00:39:32,199 --> 00:39:35,679
reality that that's unfolding and the archetypes that we're using.

772
00:39:36,079 --> 00:39:37,679
You know, you need the allegory.

773
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:39,320
Speaker 6: Is that not?

774
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 3: The might just confused here.

775
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:46,320
Speaker 7: But of course what I'm talking about is memes, mens, memories,

776
00:39:46,559 --> 00:39:49,360
And I want to know is that such a thing

777
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:51,800
as a memory? Is it a real thing as a fact.

778
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:55,519
I only believe in facts. Memories are like memes because

779
00:39:55,559 --> 00:40:00,679
they have ms. M and m's are the so well, Jordan,

780
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:03,079
because you seem to be drunk on them.

781
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:11,880
Speaker 3: Again, it the the mode at which you're interpreting facts

782
00:40:12,039 --> 00:40:16,920
assumes some sort of teleological imperative. I'm not getting what

783
00:40:17,039 --> 00:40:18,199
it is from your view.

784
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 7: Well, I asked you about cleavage.

785
00:40:22,679 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 3: May look, cleavage is as real as any as a

786
00:40:29,519 --> 00:40:32,440
crab on the on the beach. The question is what

787
00:40:32,599 --> 00:40:35,440
is the symbol of cleavage.

788
00:40:36,119 --> 00:40:38,760
Speaker 7: I think we've all seen here that he doesn't believe

789
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,039
in facts. You see, he's living in fantasies. He lives

790
00:40:42,079 --> 00:40:45,000
in Nania, he lives in the Lord of the Rings.

791
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:50,559
Speaker 3: Well, look, from your evolutionary view, this is the thing.

792
00:40:50,599 --> 00:40:53,159
You're just gonna have to deal with Bucco from your

793
00:40:53,159 --> 00:40:57,519
evolutionary view, even my Christian view, even if it's perverse

794
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:02,119
or or counterfeit is just a mimetic expression of biological

795
00:41:02,159 --> 00:41:06,360
biological mechanisms. So on what account, from your view, is

796
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:11,440
one mechanism or one sort of epiphenomenal memetic system more

797
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:16,920
superior than another. It's like answer that cal He's not

798
00:41:17,159 --> 00:41:18,480
answered the damn question.

799
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 4: Uh, you just like the tokens gremlin is an.

800
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 2: Oh fantastic All right, let's get back into the debate.

801
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:42,280
Speaker 6: And the one and what does what you mean when

802
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:44,079
you say tomorrow, Well, I would say you can see

803
00:41:44,119 --> 00:41:46,880
that in the compilation of the biblical texts, because one

804
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:48,320
of the things that you see evolved.

805
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,159
Speaker 8: You know, you criticized the Biblical text at one point.

806
00:41:51,199 --> 00:41:52,639
Correct me if I've got this wrong, because I don't

807
00:41:52,639 --> 00:41:54,480
want to get this wrong. You said that there isn't

808
00:41:54,519 --> 00:41:57,920
anything in the Biblical text that constitutes let's say, significant

809
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:00,320
original discovery, which is something that you'd expect if it

810
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:03,960
was a divine providence, let's say divine providence. And so,

811
00:42:04,199 --> 00:42:06,000
and I think you know, I was thinking about that,

812
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:08,880
and I think that one of the discoveries that the

813
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:12,519
text lays bear in an insanely brilliant manner is that

814
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:14,760
the foundation of the community is sacrifice.

815
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:16,239
Speaker 5: That that's an appropriate conceptualization.

816
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 8: And you can see the concept of sacrifice evolve across

817
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:23,280
the Biblical texts as their sequence chronologically in the what

818
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:25,960
in the overall story that makes up the Biblical the

819
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:29,320
Biblical text, the idea of sacrifice becomes more and more sophisticated,

820
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:31,960
it's more and more elaborated, it's more and more specified,

821
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:33,039
it's more and more embodied.

822
00:42:33,159 --> 00:42:35,320
Speaker 5: There's an obvious progression in a way is.

823
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:37,840
Speaker 6: The progression where do you see that progression in successive

824
00:42:38,159 --> 00:42:39,920
manuscript in.

825
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:42,559
Speaker 8: The successive stories as the story, as the text progresses, the.

826
00:42:42,599 --> 00:42:46,079
Speaker 5: Way the way a novel progresses something like that sacrifice.

827
00:42:46,519 --> 00:42:48,599
Speaker 8: Those were the entire the way for testing the text

828
00:42:48,639 --> 00:42:50,440
is a sacrificial Is this artificial story as well?

829
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 5: The Passion story is a story of sacrifice, and the.

830
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:56,320
Speaker 8: Sacrificial motif recurs continually through the Biblical text, and it's

831
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:57,199
elaborated constantly.

832
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:00,400
Speaker 9: Okay, So the criticism is the Bible as a text

833
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:03,440
gives us nothing to indicate that it has divine origin.

834
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:04,920
There's nothing that we can read in it where we

835
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:06,960
think there's no way this idea could have evolved were

836
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:09,239
it not divinely put into this text.

837
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:11,719
Speaker 6: That's a criticism in the past.

838
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,639
Speaker 8: But I think it's reflective of some of some order

839
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:18,599
that's so profound and implicit that there isn't a better

840
00:43:18,599 --> 00:43:20,639
way of describing it than divine. But I don't really

841
00:43:20,639 --> 00:43:22,119
care if we if we look at that from the

842
00:43:22,119 --> 00:43:25,280
bottom up, like as a biological phenomenon, or is from

843
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,079
the top down, I don't think it makes any difference.

844
00:43:27,119 --> 00:43:28,760
Speaker 6: It doesn't make a difference whether it was divinely in

845
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:30,800
the spot out or whether it's evolved within human.

846
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:33,159
Speaker 8: I don't think look if okay, so so let me

847
00:43:33,199 --> 00:43:35,800
ask you this, Like, I think that at bottom truth

848
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:38,159
is unified, and what that's going to mean eventually is

849
00:43:38,159 --> 00:43:39,880
that the world of value in the world of fact

850
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:42,599
coincide in some manner that we don't yet understand.

851
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 5: And I think that the fact of that union.

852
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:46,800
Speaker 1: And when he.

853
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:54,159
Speaker 4: So, what's going on here, Njay, this is.

854
00:43:54,119 --> 00:43:58,760
Speaker 1: The best part, when he's really about to cook and

855
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:01,599
could have really just moolish Dawkins, And this is to

856
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:04,800
really push on the point of the fact that in

857
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:08,880
an atheist materialist paradigm you can't really get aught from

858
00:44:09,119 --> 00:44:13,960
is you can't get these moral norms which seem to

859
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:18,199
be necessary for you know, human survival, human society, for

860
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:21,119
justifying our moral claims. We need some way to ground

861
00:44:21,159 --> 00:44:23,400
these things. But the problem is that if everything that's

862
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:26,639
that exists is just molecules in motion, there's nothing that

863
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:29,119
says that molecules in motion need to be some way

864
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:32,079
versus some other way. They just are. And to get

865
00:44:32,119 --> 00:44:34,920
to an aught you need some basis or reason as

866
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:37,119
to why it needs to be this way or that way.

867
00:44:37,519 --> 00:44:40,280
And that requires these sort of standards that have to

868
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:43,760
transcend the physical have to transcend the molecules themselves, because

869
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:46,039
there's nothing in the molecules that tell you value judgments.

870
00:44:46,519 --> 00:44:50,000
And this is where Jordan's going, and he sets up

871
00:44:50,039 --> 00:44:53,920
a question and the challenge perfectly. And then I think

872
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:57,519
this is the part where the village person cop guy

873
00:44:57,599 --> 00:45:01,000
that's doing the looks like it looks like Amber the

874
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:01,760
George people.

875
00:45:01,519 --> 00:45:02,599
Speaker 3: There, Yeah, totally.

876
00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:06,800
Speaker 1: The guy like he deflects right away, so he's even

877
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:10,159
he senses that Peterson could really nail Dawkins, and he

878
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:12,320
will immediately deflect the way I think at this point.

879
00:45:13,599 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, So Alex O'Connor, do you think that. I mean,

880
00:45:16,159 --> 00:45:18,360
I think that the reason why they would want to

881
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:20,559
have him here is because he's a guy who's very

882
00:45:20,599 --> 00:45:23,639
experienced with talking to Christians. He's an atheist himself, but

883
00:45:23,679 --> 00:45:27,239
he's not one of those really annoying sort of Dawkins

884
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:29,519
sort of clone atheists as far as I can tell anyway,

885
00:45:29,559 --> 00:45:31,840
and he has quite good conversations with people like William

886
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:34,559
Lane Craig whenever I've sort of listened to those conversations

887
00:45:34,559 --> 00:45:36,280
that he's had. So do you think that his ability

888
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:38,599
to sort of steal man the other side is why

889
00:45:38,639 --> 00:45:39,320
he's the moderator?

890
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:42,760
Speaker 4: And is that an appropriate choice? I think?

891
00:45:43,039 --> 00:45:46,360
Speaker 3: For I think step one is how big his account is,

892
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:49,280
how many eyes he has, And then second, yeah, he

893
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:51,880
can facilitate the conversation. But I remember this too, Jay,

894
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:55,199
he he does a little bit of damage control. Whether

895
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:58,679
it was impulse or you know, involuntary, who knows, but

896
00:45:59,079 --> 00:46:02,000
he definitely has He did some sort of protecting throughout

897
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:03,440
this conversation once or twice.

898
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:05,199
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't mean.

899
00:46:05,079 --> 00:46:05,559
Speaker 3: To be rude.

900
00:46:05,599 --> 00:46:09,039
Speaker 1: I've watched several of his debates. I think that he

901
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:11,840
fails miserably and most of them, I haven't seen all

902
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:13,880
of them, but when he debated Trent Horn, and I've

903
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:15,880
debated Trent Horne, I don't think Trent Horn's a great

904
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:18,719
of a debater. But I think Trent Horden mained made

905
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:20,800
the Alex O'Connor look silly, So don't I don't think

906
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:23,800
he's that. I'm a little mystified. I mean, maybe he

907
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:26,920
is very personable, but as debates go, I don't think

908
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:27,880
he's very good.

909
00:46:28,679 --> 00:46:28,880
Speaker 5: Yeah.

910
00:46:29,119 --> 00:46:31,519
Speaker 2: I watched your review of his debate with Ben Shapiro,

911
00:46:31,599 --> 00:46:34,239
and you were able to pretty easily.

912
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 4: Picked that one apart.

913
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:37,039
Speaker 2: But do you think that we could potentially if I

914
00:46:37,079 --> 00:46:39,039
reach out and annoy Alex O'Connor enough, he might take

915
00:46:39,039 --> 00:46:39,559
the debate with.

916
00:46:39,519 --> 00:46:42,960
Speaker 1: You, Jay, You're welcome to do that. It's been attempted

917
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:45,480
in the past. I don't think it'll happen when I'm

918
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:46,280
always down for it.

919
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:49,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, I did see him do the William Lane

920
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:53,639
craig sort of. He sort of debated William Lane craig

921
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:55,719
for Dawkins. I don't know if you guys saw this,

922
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:58,639
but Dawkins had these sort of big objections about William

923
00:46:58,679 --> 00:47:01,519
lane Craig's moral character because he supports what happened, he

924
00:47:01,559 --> 00:47:04,159
supports what God did with the Canaanites, but he wouldn't

925
00:47:04,159 --> 00:47:06,639
debate William Lane Craig is apparently William Lane Craig is

926
00:47:06,679 --> 00:47:09,239
mean or something. And then Alex O'Connor went and actually

927
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:12,719
sort of did the debate for him, So there is

928
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:14,440
definitely a little bit of evasiveness going on.

929
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:16,719
Speaker 4: Do you think that do you guys? Do you guys?

930
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:18,480
Speaker 2: I mean, you guys obviously have a different sort of

931
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:21,599
view of Christianity than William Lane craig, But starting with you, Jay,

932
00:47:21,639 --> 00:47:23,639
do you think that he's one of the better apologists

933
00:47:23,639 --> 00:47:24,039
out there?

934
00:47:28,199 --> 00:47:30,920
Speaker 1: I don't, honestly. I mean, I don't have anything personal

935
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:33,039
against him, but no, I don't think he's very good.

936
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:36,000
I think maybe back in the day he was okay.

937
00:47:37,119 --> 00:47:40,519
I think that his sort of boomer style of things

938
00:47:40,639 --> 00:47:43,960
is completely irrelevant to today's way of doing things. I

939
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:47,039
think the Muhammed a Job debate was was a big fail.

940
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:49,360
I think ultimately he came out on top, but that's

941
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:52,159
just because Muhammed a Jab was so bad. But no,

942
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:57,159
I think unfortunately, the William Lane Craig's whole position is

943
00:47:57,559 --> 00:47:58,559
it's all very deficient.

944
00:48:00,119 --> 00:48:03,320
Speaker 3: Did Jim Uh Yeah, I just I agree with Jay.

945
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:06,599
He did a he did a decent job annihilating the

946
00:48:06,639 --> 00:48:09,840
moral landscape. Now that's fifteen years ago, I think.

947
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:13,039
Speaker 4: Yeah, I watched the other Dayeah.

948
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:14,400
Speaker 3: I think he did a good job there. But he

949
00:48:14,519 --> 00:48:18,440
just wouldn't argue. He just doesn't argue in it in

950
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:21,719
a way that's that really gets, you know, to the

951
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:24,880
pillars of what's happening. Like we talked about paradigm verus paradigm,

952
00:48:25,079 --> 00:48:29,239
a lot of these Christian debaters, the more popular ones,

953
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:31,960
are never doing a tag or preset up. They're never

954
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:35,480
arguing about the the meta argument itself. How is it

955
00:48:35,519 --> 00:48:37,599
that we can even argue? They don't want to do that.

956
00:48:37,679 --> 00:48:40,960
They grant the other view. So it's really just naturalists

957
00:48:41,519 --> 00:48:45,440
arguing against naturalists, or maybe Jay you would say founds.

958
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 1: Tag also requires within this element of going into the

959
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:53,440
other person's position and deconstructing it, which is a little aggressive.

960
00:48:54,039 --> 00:48:56,760
And so if you're not aggressive as a kind of

961
00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,880
a debater or a person in general. And so I

962
00:49:00,039 --> 00:49:01,880
think a lot of these people in this domain, I'm

963
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:03,840
not naming everybody specifically, but a lot of people in

964
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:06,199
the debate domain. Unfortunately, they are popular kind of soy,

965
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:08,639
and so they're not going to be aggressive. They're not

966
00:49:08,639 --> 00:49:10,880
going to want to go in and do that deconstructing stuff.

967
00:49:11,119 --> 00:49:14,519
Speaker 3: Yeah. Also, it's going to be easier to follow not

968
00:49:14,639 --> 00:49:17,320
doing the tag, just to be honest, I mean, even

969
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:20,360
though I think it's more I think it's more appropriate

970
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:23,119
to just cut at the pillars of another worldview, but

971
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:27,920
exact Yeah, it's really like it's like a stalemate, and

972
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:31,960
so it's not entirely as watchable as them talking about

973
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:35,519
all these things. Once you grant regularity of nature, the

974
00:49:35,559 --> 00:49:38,199
way the world is, all this stuff, then you could

975
00:49:38,199 --> 00:49:40,679
talk about particular things, and like Jay said, it ends

976
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:43,639
up being facts against facts. Well, that doesn't give us

977
00:49:43,679 --> 00:49:47,599
anything because we're actually wondering about which view is interpreting

978
00:49:47,639 --> 00:49:49,400
the facts, not just the facts.

979
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:53,519
Speaker 1: So I think tag also requires pretty high level, sort

980
00:49:53,559 --> 00:49:58,159
of grand universal connecting various domains, and not many people

981
00:49:58,159 --> 00:49:58,920
are able to do that.

982
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:01,960
Speaker 4: Yeah. I actually heard William Lane Craig.

983
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:04,079
Speaker 2: I've listened to hours and hours and hours of his

984
00:50:04,639 --> 00:50:06,960
debates and speeches and I really got a lot from it.

985
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:12,320
But I also heard him say that presupposition. Presuppositional apologetics

986
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:15,079
is like, is some sort of kind of what he said,

987
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:17,559
He made fun of it, and that was interesting. But

988
00:50:19,079 --> 00:50:20,679
just quickly on this one though, guys, before we move

989
00:50:20,679 --> 00:50:23,519
on about the question of whether the Biblical text did

990
00:50:23,519 --> 00:50:27,079
divinely inspired or did they evolve? Yeah, starting with you, Jay,

991
00:50:27,119 --> 00:50:28,679
I mean, how would you answer this question?

992
00:50:30,679 --> 00:50:33,119
Speaker 1: Well, I do believe they're inspired, and I think that

993
00:50:33,199 --> 00:50:37,199
there might be also included within that some possibility of

994
00:50:37,519 --> 00:50:41,519
what we might call evolution. But the text quote evolving

995
00:50:41,639 --> 00:50:45,320
could also mean that could also be classed under providence

996
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:47,760
and inspiration and guidance as well, So those two things

997
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:51,840
aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, depending upon what we mean. But

998
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:55,880
I don't believe that that necessitates what Peterson said about accretions.

999
00:50:56,119 --> 00:50:57,519
You didn't really go into that, so I'm not sure

1000
00:50:57,519 --> 00:50:59,559
what he meant. That could mean something like the way

1001
00:50:59,599 --> 00:51:04,360
protest since think about you know, Catholic traditions or accretions,

1002
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:07,559
and there was this primitive simple who knows what that means?

1003
00:51:07,599 --> 00:51:10,280
But no, I would just say, simply put, I believe

1004
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:13,760
in the inspiration and the guidance the preservation of the texts.

1005
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:17,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, And I would just add to that that

1006
00:51:17,679 --> 00:51:20,559
it's important to distinguish when you when you hear someone

1007
00:51:20,599 --> 00:51:27,039
say evolve, they could very well mean over time, apprehend

1008
00:51:27,079 --> 00:51:29,880
a greater resolution of the meaning over time, and that's

1009
00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:35,079
totally compatible with Christianity, whether it's morality or some sort

1010
00:51:35,119 --> 00:51:40,280
of more detailed, granular hermeneutics. It's perfectly fine to examine

1011
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:42,480
these things. And it's just important to ask someone what

1012
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:44,800
they mean by evolve, because you just think change and

1013
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:47,360
if it changes and it can't be true, well well

1014
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:52,119
no you could. Actually you could gain again higher resolution,

1015
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:55,639
more granular understanding of things, and if you want to

1016
00:51:55,679 --> 00:51:58,440
call that evolved, I just wouldn't use the term evolve, right.

1017
00:51:59,039 --> 00:51:59,800
Speaker 1: A loaded term?

1018
00:52:00,079 --> 00:52:02,159
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, yeah yeah.

1019
00:52:02,199 --> 00:52:04,239
Speaker 2: Maybe you guys can help me to build this argument out,

1020
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:06,440
But there's I think that this maybe sometimes they get it,

1021
00:52:06,519 --> 00:52:11,239
like the atheists particularly get confused between ontology and epistemology,

1022
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:14,519
where like the ontology doesn't actually change, but the way

1023
00:52:14,559 --> 00:52:17,599
in which we come to know it that evolves over time.

1024
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:20,440
So yeah, like we can we can come to learn it,

1025
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:22,920
but the actual nature of it itself doesn't change. Does

1026
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:23,480
that make sense?

1027
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:24,079
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1028
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:26,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, okay, all right.

1029
00:52:26,599 --> 00:52:28,760
Speaker 2: Let's move on fellows, I think we're going to shortly

1030
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:31,760
get to the cultural Christian bit. Let's let's do the

1031
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:34,039
cultural Christian part, because I thought this one is definitely

1032
00:52:34,159 --> 00:52:35,199
very interesting.

1033
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:37,440
Speaker 4: Stuff from here.

1034
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:41,239
Speaker 8: Impossible for creatures embodied like us to get a grip

1035
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:45,159
on quantum phenomena, the strange wave particle duality, for example,

1036
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:48,000
we have ample evidence that it works and stellarly.

1037
00:52:48,039 --> 00:52:49,519
Speaker 5: And I would say exactly the same thing about the

1038
00:52:49,559 --> 00:52:50,599
Biblical text if.

1039
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:52,599
Speaker 8: They run into a mystery, like there's a horizon of

1040
00:52:52,639 --> 00:52:54,880
mystery which I do not claim to penetrate.

1041
00:52:55,159 --> 00:52:57,239
Speaker 5: But in so far as I've been able to understand

1042
00:52:57,280 --> 00:52:57,840
the text.

1043
00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:00,280
Speaker 8: Every time I make a improvement and understand and it

1044
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:02,400
reveals something to me that's just quite shattery.

1045
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:06,400
Speaker 6: Quartn physics is deeply mysterious, and you're saying that Biblical

1046
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:09,760
texts are deeply mysterious. The difference is quantum physics. The

1047
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:13,159
predictions would derived from quantum physics are fulfilled to the

1048
00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:16,960
humpteenth decimal places definal place. I mean, I think it

1049
00:53:17,039 --> 00:53:19,480
was Richard Finland's equivalent to predicting the width of North

1050
00:53:19,519 --> 00:53:22,400
America to the nearest hairs breadth. I'm that's impressive that

1051
00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:25,840
no doubt the mystery there as it were, gains its

1052
00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:28,199
credentials by its predictions. The mysteries of the Bible doesn't

1053
00:53:28,199 --> 00:53:29,679
have any credentials at all, as far as I can

1054
00:53:29,679 --> 00:53:30,039
make out.

1055
00:53:30,159 --> 00:53:32,079
Speaker 5: Well, I guess the credentials that I would put.

1056
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:36,360
Speaker 8: You made a statement a couple of months ago that

1057
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:40,519
I found very interesting, and I don't claim to understand it,

1058
00:53:40,559 --> 00:53:41,920
and I'm not trying to put you on the spot

1059
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:44,639
with it. You said that you were a cultural Christian, okay,

1060
00:53:44,639 --> 00:53:46,400
And so that raised the number of questions in my mind,

1061
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:46,920
you know.

1062
00:53:47,039 --> 00:53:48,800
Speaker 5: And the first question was you.

1063
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:49,639
Speaker 6: Are changing the subject.

1064
00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:52,039
Speaker 5: No, no, not no, I don't think so. I may

1065
00:53:52,039 --> 00:53:53,480
be leaping outside of the.

1066
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:56,480
Speaker 9: Topic of cultural Christianity, but I think I have less

1067
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:57,519
of questions that you wanted to ask, and that is

1068
00:53:57,559 --> 00:53:57,840
one of them.

1069
00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:00,599
Speaker 8: I think professors referring to the predictive and to the

1070
00:54:00,679 --> 00:54:01,599
hutility stories.

1071
00:54:01,639 --> 00:54:02,000
Speaker 6: Okay.

1072
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:03,280
Speaker 5: So that's actually what I was trying to say, if

1073
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:04,800
I Okay, So that was the point.

1074
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:08,239
Speaker 8: Well, it seemed to me that your proclamation that you

1075
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:13,000
were a cultural Christian was a recognition and in a statement,

1076
00:54:13,199 --> 00:54:15,480
that you had found something in the culture that had

1077
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:17,920
been derived from Christianity. That you had an affinity with

1078
00:54:18,199 --> 00:54:19,760
and that there's some reason for that. And one of

1079
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:21,639
the things I wanted to ask you is, well, what

1080
00:54:21,679 --> 00:54:25,079
do you think that Christianity got right that allows you

1081
00:54:25,119 --> 00:54:26,800
to make a statement like that. I mean, I know,

1082
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:29,159
I know that there's differences, perhaps in what we both

1083
00:54:29,199 --> 00:54:32,800
think about the ultimate veracity of the biblical stories. Maybe

1084
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:34,519
there isn't differences like it would take a lot of

1085
00:54:34,519 --> 00:54:35,800
conversations figure this out.

1086
00:54:35,639 --> 00:54:37,119
Speaker 5: But but what did you mean by that?

1087
00:54:37,159 --> 00:54:39,000
Speaker 8: Like, what do you think that Christianity got right that

1088
00:54:39,039 --> 00:54:40,440
would enable you to make a statement like that?

1089
00:54:40,519 --> 00:54:44,519
Speaker 6: Actually, nothing I meant by that, no more than that

1090
00:54:44,559 --> 00:54:48,239
I'm brought up in a Christian culture. I went Christian schools.

1091
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:50,119
I therefore no one way around the Bible. I mean,

1092
00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:53,159
one way around the Book of Common Prayer, I know,

1093
00:54:53,199 --> 00:54:56,880
the hymns. That's all. I don't value Christianity as a

1094
00:54:57,039 --> 00:54:58,239
truth system at all.

1095
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 8: Okay, So let me let me ask you about that,

1096
00:55:00,199 --> 00:55:04,119
because maybe that's true and perhaps it's not. So the

1097
00:55:04,159 --> 00:55:06,440
first question is, like, do you think that there are

1098
00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:10,159
any marked differences between cultural traditions that would enable you

1099
00:55:10,199 --> 00:55:12,400
to rank order them in terms of their ethical validity?

1100
00:55:12,519 --> 00:55:12,679
Speaker 4: Est?

1101
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:14,559
Speaker 5: Okay, So for example, we could.

1102
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:17,920
Speaker 8: Contrast mainstream UK Christianity with Islamic fundamentals.

1103
00:55:18,159 --> 00:55:20,679
Speaker 5: Okay, so there's a hierarchy, there is a hierarchy. Hierarchy

1104
00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:21,360
that points to what.

1105
00:55:22,159 --> 00:55:26,239
Speaker 6: Well, in the case of Islam, I dislike any religion

1106
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:30,079
which punishes apostasy with death that throws gay people of

1107
00:55:30,159 --> 00:55:33,639
high buildings, that practices keep already dect to me that

1108
00:55:33,639 --> 00:55:35,960
that seems to me to place Islam on a lower

1109
00:55:36,039 --> 00:55:38,280
level than Christianity. But that's not to say anything very

1110
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:39,519
positive about Christianity.

1111
00:55:39,559 --> 00:55:41,400
Speaker 8: Well it might, it might be to say something positive

1112
00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:43,880
about Christianity, Like I think that question is open because

1113
00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:47,079
you might ask yourself, what did Christianity get right that

1114
00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:50,440
led it away from those particular presumptions and towards something

1115
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:52,039
that you regard is more ethically appropriate.

1116
00:55:52,079 --> 00:55:53,320
Speaker 5: Like this isn't a trivial question.

1117
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:55,840
Speaker 6: It's a very modest claim, and it's not very much.

1118
00:55:56,000 --> 00:56:01,440
Speaker 3: I mean, can you stop. I just want to just

1119
00:56:01,519 --> 00:56:08,880
point in even Jordan, he's granting too much to Dawkins here,

1120
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:12,480
because get it right from Dawkins's paradigm, and it sounds

1121
00:56:12,519 --> 00:56:16,039
like Peterson's using the same paradigm. Is accurate descriptions of

1122
00:56:16,079 --> 00:56:19,679
hard reality, external world, how things work, naturalism, this kind

1123
00:56:19,679 --> 00:56:22,760
of thing that's not what really Jordan is actually arguing

1124
00:56:23,159 --> 00:56:25,519
is the value of Christianity as far as getting it right.

1125
00:56:26,159 --> 00:56:31,599
Dawkins doesn't even have the capacity or the the category

1126
00:56:31,679 --> 00:56:36,480
folder to look at getting it right as some other

1127
00:56:36,599 --> 00:56:39,199
thing other than describing reality as some way, you know

1128
00:56:39,239 --> 00:56:43,000
what I mean, like a metaphoric getting it right, an

1129
00:56:43,079 --> 00:56:47,960
allegorical getting it right, summarizing the experience of being a

1130
00:56:48,039 --> 00:56:50,920
human being, with our highs and lows and our humility

1131
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:53,599
and our pride and all these things. That's not the

1132
00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:57,199
kind of right quote that Dawkins is using in his standard.

1133
00:56:57,199 --> 00:57:01,639
But Jordan's asking it as if Dawkins is going to

1134
00:57:01,679 --> 00:57:04,960
answer outside of empiricism, he has to force him off

1135
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:08,519
of empiricism. And that's the thing Jordan fails to do,

1136
00:57:08,639 --> 00:57:12,159
is there's plenty of traps you can set for the

1137
00:57:12,199 --> 00:57:14,920
audience listening if you're dealing with these types. There's tons

1138
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:18,079
of traps you can set in moving an empiricist into

1139
00:57:18,119 --> 00:57:22,119
a corner where they have to then demonstrate that they

1140
00:57:22,159 --> 00:57:24,760
do have faith, they have faith in other things that

1141
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:26,400
aren't empirically derived.

1142
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:31,800
Speaker 1: Well, speaking of some of those speaking of that atheist

1143
00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:38,119
faith in all kinds of magical marvel MCU things. It's

1144
00:57:38,119 --> 00:57:42,159
funny that Dawkins is a fan of quantum physics, which

1145
00:57:42,199 --> 00:57:46,440
supposedly gives as these wildly accurate measurements. Really look into

1146
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:51,760
this domain. Most of that domain is highly, highly speculative.

1147
00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:54,400
I'm not saying it's all bunk, but a lot of

1148
00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:56,760
it is just well, it's a system that we're working

1149
00:57:56,800 --> 00:57:58,960
on that might come into fruition in five years, we'll

1150
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:02,360
have these quantum computers. It's very speculative. It's not there's

1151
00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:05,880
not a lot to actually latch onto. I'm aware of

1152
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:08,280
the you know, particle wave duality stuff and all that,

1153
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:11,639
but it's it's just funny that what atheists will then

1154
00:58:11,719 --> 00:58:15,400
do is extrapolate these very really grandiose metaphysics out of that.

1155
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:18,039
They'll say, oh, but then there's a multiverse, and I

1156
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:21,519
remember Dawkins has had you know, he's had comments over

1157
00:58:21,519 --> 00:58:23,679
the years about the existence of the multiverse and all

1158
00:58:23,679 --> 00:58:27,880
the possibilities that are out there, which is just atheist metaphysics.

1159
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:31,840
It's atheist magical thinking, where all, perhaps there's a universe

1160
00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:34,480
where I Richard Dawkins am the god of the universe,

1161
00:58:34,519 --> 00:58:36,480
and you know, one day I'll be able to unite

1162
00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:39,639
with my god universe out there. Sometimes it's just it's

1163
00:58:39,679 --> 00:58:43,840
just marvel for atheists basically. And he's also said, for example,

1164
00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:47,039
that he believes that it's very likely or more likely

1165
00:58:47,119 --> 00:58:50,400
that aliens are are real, and that aliens seated us here.

1166
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:52,639
That's better than the Biblical explanation. So to me, this

1167
00:58:52,719 --> 00:58:56,679
is all just preposterous, outlandish stuff that has absolutely no

1168
00:58:56,760 --> 00:59:00,360
scientific basis. Yet the requirements for the Bible, he says,

1169
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:04,039
our quote scientific based now on the basis of Jordan

1170
00:59:04,119 --> 00:59:10,800
Peterson's argumentation of like the psychological representations of patterns in

1171
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:16,079
people's uh struggles with their relatives, he could argue that

1172
00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:20,280
the Canaanable story actually is scientifically replicable in some way

1173
00:59:20,480 --> 00:59:24,000
through his studies and his research into you know, familial

1174
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:26,400
conflict or something like that. So so even even at

1175
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:28,800
that level, he might Peterson might can make some argument

1176
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:30,800
on that basis. But then I would also say that

1177
00:59:31,599 --> 00:59:36,320
when Dawkins made the argument that Islam on some scale

1178
00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:41,559
is worse than Christianity, excuse me, what scale? Did you

1179
00:59:41,599 --> 00:59:51,079
catch his answer? It was because it's bad, right, So

1180
00:59:51,119 --> 00:59:55,559
it's literally it's purely subjestion scales and value judgments are

1181
00:59:55,599 --> 00:59:57,920
in the domain of aesthetics and metaphysics. Well, excuse me,

1182
00:59:58,000 --> 00:59:59,920
that's not in the physical domains.

1183
01:00:00,039 --> 01:00:02,519
Speaker 2: So I mean, benjimb you mentioned before sort of pushing

1184
01:00:02,519 --> 01:00:05,719
them off of this horse. When Jordan Peterson is asking

1185
01:00:05,760 --> 01:00:08,239
him this question, well do you He's basically asking you,

1186
01:00:08,280 --> 01:00:10,119
do you think that there's a truth hierarchy? And do

1187
01:00:10,159 --> 01:00:12,079
you think that Christianity is higher up on that truth

1188
01:00:12,079 --> 01:00:15,159
hoarchy hierarchy? And then what do you think Christianity got right?

1189
01:00:15,199 --> 01:00:18,599
And Dawkins says, yes, Christianity is morally superior, it's higher

1190
01:00:18,679 --> 01:00:21,159
up on the truth hierarchy. Bet, it got nothing wrong.

1191
01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:22,880
So I mean where do you go from there? How

1192
01:00:22,920 --> 01:00:23,960
do you push them off the horse?

1193
01:00:24,719 --> 01:00:27,400
Speaker 3: Well, again, you just like Jay said, you go by

1194
01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:30,320
what metric? Right he has to say it's bad, or

1195
01:00:30,559 --> 01:00:32,280
you go, okay, how do you know something's bad? You

1196
01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:38,000
go after his epistemology. These people have to when in

1197
01:00:38,039 --> 01:00:40,159
their view, if they if they're going to be honest

1198
01:00:40,199 --> 01:00:42,239
and bite the bullet, they have to say none of

1199
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:46,280
it's actually wrong. It's just a preference I have toward licorice,

1200
01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:49,480
black liquorice versus whatever. The weird kind they have now,

1201
01:00:50,760 --> 01:00:54,159
and so if you can reduce someone to that view, well,

1202
01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:59,440
unfortunately that applies to valuing truth. Why aren't we value

1203
01:00:59,480 --> 01:01:01,559
true just riptions of things, even if we took a

1204
01:01:01,840 --> 01:01:06,920
strictly empirical description of reality, parts moving in a certain way,

1205
01:01:07,239 --> 01:01:12,400
describing these particular things, why ought we pursue That is

1206
01:01:12,440 --> 01:01:16,760
the question Dawkins can't answer, and Peterson knows he can't answer.

1207
01:01:16,800 --> 01:01:20,480
He just hasn't stated the question very simply right. He's

1208
01:01:20,519 --> 01:01:23,119
just it's almost like his poetry in his mind work

1209
01:01:23,159 --> 01:01:25,800
against him.

1210
01:01:25,880 --> 01:01:27,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Jay, have you had anything to add about that?

1211
01:01:28,719 --> 01:01:31,119
Speaker 1: No, I totally agree. I mean, you know, this has

1212
01:01:31,199 --> 01:01:35,000
always kind of presented to the atheist in this way.

1213
01:01:35,079 --> 01:01:36,960
But I mean, I just thought this was such a

1214
01:01:36,960 --> 01:01:39,280
low tier response on the part of Dawkins. I mean,

1215
01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:41,519
I don't have high expectations. I've listened to a lot

1216
01:01:41,519 --> 01:01:43,679
of Richard Dawkins debates, We've covered them over the years.

1217
01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:46,679
But for him to just basically resort to just this,

1218
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:48,519
why I don't like it. You know, this is just

1219
01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:52,599
this is just so low tier for what is obviously,

1220
01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:56,079
you know, a question penetrating and probing about some kind

1221
01:01:56,079 --> 01:01:59,960
of justification for these standards. But I like to disappoint.

1222
01:02:00,199 --> 01:02:02,199
I like to go to things like, well, look, let's

1223
01:02:02,199 --> 01:02:05,280
say I'm Michael Fastbender in the movie The Killer, the

1224
01:02:05,320 --> 01:02:07,960
recent of David Fincher movie where he's he's just a

1225
01:02:08,159 --> 01:02:13,000
cold calculated assassin. Let's say I'm that kind of a person.

1226
01:02:13,480 --> 01:02:15,360
We certainly admit that there are these kinds of people

1227
01:02:15,400 --> 01:02:20,639
out there, just you know, morally free from any compunction hitmen?

1228
01:02:21,719 --> 01:02:25,119
What stops me, as that kind of a dude from

1229
01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:27,480
from just saying well, I don't like you or anything else?

1230
01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:31,639
There's nothing wrong with that. It's pure, you know, mechanistic,

1231
01:02:32,000 --> 01:02:35,719
just I'm just a machine. But if i'm there's nothing

1232
01:02:35,760 --> 01:02:37,719
wrong with that, because that's actually just a function of

1233
01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:40,559
nature and evolution. And so in fact, maybe that's even

1234
01:02:40,559 --> 01:02:42,400
the best position. Maybe we should all be like my

1235
01:02:42,559 --> 01:02:44,639
Michael Passman or assassins and we should just have no

1236
01:02:44,719 --> 01:02:47,480
compunction at all. Wouldn't that make me the fittest person?

1237
01:02:47,719 --> 01:02:49,079
But of course they don't ever want to say that

1238
01:02:49,119 --> 01:02:51,519
because they also want to morally pontificate that Christians are

1239
01:02:51,559 --> 01:02:52,199
bad or whatever.

1240
01:02:53,079 --> 01:02:55,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, cool, Well read out a few quick

1241
01:02:55,880 --> 01:03:00,519
super chats here, guys. So he seems I'm gonna say

1242
01:03:00,519 --> 01:03:04,639
that stim Simms says j BP could also hammer down

1243
01:03:04,760 --> 01:03:07,760
on their moral assumptions and how they account for them.

1244
01:03:07,800 --> 01:03:11,039
They always dodge the questions. Dawkins did it here and

1245
01:03:11,079 --> 01:03:12,679
Sam Harris did the same thing.

1246
01:03:12,880 --> 01:03:14,320
Speaker 1: That's exactly what we're covering right now.

1247
01:03:14,400 --> 01:03:19,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, MKGF. Tim Bucks says that was the best two

1248
01:03:19,440 --> 01:03:23,320
minutes ever. And I think you're referring to the debate

1249
01:03:23,360 --> 01:03:28,559
that we had. MKG again, says Jay. Can you please

1250
01:03:28,599 --> 01:03:32,119
explain to us what quantum understanding is also, if there's time,

1251
01:03:32,440 --> 01:03:33,320
quantum philosophy.

1252
01:03:33,360 --> 01:03:33,559
Speaker 4: Thanks.

1253
01:03:33,639 --> 01:03:38,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, you need to understand the quantum zone, and to

1254
01:03:38,320 --> 01:03:42,519
understand the quantum zone, you must understand quantum consciousness. And

1255
01:03:42,559 --> 01:03:45,679
to understand quantum consciousness, you must first understand quantum time,

1256
01:03:46,360 --> 01:03:50,440
which relates back to quantum cooming. And to understand quantum cooming,

1257
01:03:50,480 --> 01:03:54,320
you must be born of a quantum paternity, and that

1258
01:03:54,400 --> 01:04:00,639
requires some form of quantum queer theory. So that's the process.

1259
01:04:00,079 --> 01:04:07,199
Speaker 3: That book coming out. I dare you to write the

1260
01:04:07,239 --> 01:04:08,159
parody book of that.

1261
01:04:08,320 --> 01:04:08,719
Speaker 4: Jay.

1262
01:04:08,800 --> 01:04:09,000
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1263
01:04:09,039 --> 01:04:11,199
Speaker 1: When we just like livestream, we were laughing about how

1264
01:04:11,239 --> 01:04:12,880
they kept coming back to quantum stuff.

1265
01:04:13,079 --> 01:04:15,239
Speaker 3: Well, they say, foam too, right. That's like the ultimate

1266
01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:18,960
start point is the filming, which is kind of funny.

1267
01:04:19,079 --> 01:04:21,119
We make fun of them out there that their mind

1268
01:04:21,199 --> 01:04:23,280
is just fizzing right, and they go all the beginning

1269
01:04:23,320 --> 01:04:25,400
of all The necessary pre condition of all things is

1270
01:04:25,480 --> 01:04:28,679
quantum foam.

1271
01:04:29,079 --> 01:04:31,360
Speaker 2: Montana Mosa for five bucks says, a great meeting of

1272
01:04:31,400 --> 01:04:34,920
minds to discuss a really weird meeting of the minds

1273
01:04:34,960 --> 01:04:36,719
between a gnostic and an atheist.

1274
01:04:36,760 --> 01:04:43,599
Speaker 4: Great stuff. Keep on keeping on gim.

1275
01:04:41,599 --> 01:04:46,239
Speaker 2: All right, So back to this screen now, let's continue

1276
01:04:46,239 --> 01:04:46,400
with this.

1277
01:04:47,960 --> 01:04:51,920
Speaker 6: They're not really a very virtuous achievement. I don't know.

1278
01:04:52,000 --> 01:04:54,039
Speaker 8: I don't know if that's true, because if you look

1279
01:04:54,039 --> 01:04:57,079
at the barbarism that characterizes to the human past, you

1280
01:04:57,119 --> 01:05:00,440
might think that any progression whatsoever towards something a proximating

1281
01:05:00,480 --> 01:05:02,679
mercy and tolerance is nothing short of a bloody miracle.

1282
01:05:03,159 --> 01:05:06,679
People are pretty pretty ruthless, and so are our chimpanzee cousins.

1283
01:05:06,760 --> 01:05:07,480
Speaker 6: Yes, they are right.

1284
01:05:07,559 --> 01:05:10,480
Speaker 8: So we move forward into the light with great difficulty,

1285
01:05:10,519 --> 01:05:12,440
and the fact that we can take that for granted now,

1286
01:05:12,480 --> 01:05:16,000
and that it seems self evident in deserving of faint praise,

1287
01:05:16,039 --> 01:05:17,960
it's not so clear to me that that that's a

1288
01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:18,800
reasonable proposition.

1289
01:05:18,840 --> 01:05:22,119
Speaker 6: Okay, let's grant the faint praise, but that has nothing

1290
01:05:22,119 --> 01:05:23,480
to do with the truth value. And what I care

1291
01:05:23,480 --> 01:05:25,840
about is the truth value. I see no truth value

1292
01:05:26,280 --> 01:05:28,880
in the claims of Christianity. The virgin birth, the resurrection,

1293
01:05:29,159 --> 01:05:32,159
the miracles. Do you believe in any of those? Do

1294
01:05:32,159 --> 01:05:33,920
you believe Jesus was born in virgin.

1295
01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:38,440
Speaker 8: As I said before, there are elements of the text

1296
01:05:38,480 --> 01:05:41,400
that I don't feel qualified to comment on. My experience

1297
01:05:41,440 --> 01:05:43,360
has being that the mora like I know from a

1298
01:05:43,400 --> 01:05:46,239
metaphorical perspective and from a mythic perspective what the story

1299
01:05:46,239 --> 01:05:47,320
of the virgin birth means.

1300
01:05:47,639 --> 01:05:48,320
Speaker 5: And I accept that.

1301
01:05:48,400 --> 01:05:51,280
Speaker 8: I know, for example, that any culture that doesn't hold

1302
01:05:51,320 --> 01:05:55,440
the image of the woman and infant sacred dies Jim

1303
01:05:55,559 --> 01:05:56,719
and I don't know how that needs to be.

1304
01:05:56,679 --> 01:05:57,840
Speaker 5: Expressed in a form.

1305
01:05:57,960 --> 01:05:58,800
Speaker 6: Do you mean that you don't know?

1306
01:05:59,800 --> 01:06:01,760
Speaker 8: Let me ask you about that, because truth this is

1307
01:06:01,800 --> 01:06:03,360
something I talked with Sam Harris about too.

1308
01:06:03,559 --> 01:06:05,199
Speaker 5: Truth, as we know, is a tricky business.

1309
01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:07,440
Speaker 8: Do you think there are differences in the truth claims

1310
01:06:07,480 --> 01:06:11,920
between different writers of fiction, like it's Dostievsky more profound.

1311
01:06:11,519 --> 01:06:14,440
Speaker 6: Then well, I wouldn't call fiction truth claims anyway.

1312
01:06:14,480 --> 01:06:17,320
Speaker 5: I mean, then on what grounds do we rank order

1313
01:06:17,519 --> 01:06:18,920
the fiction in terms of quality?

1314
01:06:19,079 --> 01:06:22,400
Speaker 8: Like Dostievski is a profound purveyor of fiction on the

1315
01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:24,800
philosophical front, unbelievably deep and profound.

1316
01:06:24,920 --> 01:06:26,719
Speaker 5: There's something true about what he's writing about.

1317
01:06:27,000 --> 01:06:29,480
Speaker 6: It's nothing to do with the truth. The truth that

1318
01:06:29,599 --> 01:06:31,719
science is concerned with. The truth of science is the

1319
01:06:31,719 --> 01:06:33,199
truth that gets us to the moon. I mean that

1320
01:06:33,239 --> 01:06:36,840
this has nothing to do with whether one writer of

1321
01:06:36,880 --> 01:06:39,280
fiction has a sort of insight into human nature that

1322
01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:40,679
goes without saying accept that.

1323
01:06:41,000 --> 01:06:42,800
Speaker 8: So how do we deal with the notion that on

1324
01:06:42,880 --> 01:06:45,239
the on the purely factual side, how do we deal

1325
01:06:45,280 --> 01:06:48,239
with the idea Let's take the note you talked about clitaroidactomy.

1326
01:06:48,320 --> 01:06:49,679
Speaker 5: Let's talk about the oppression of women.

1327
01:06:49,760 --> 01:06:52,559
Speaker 8: Yes, we make a scientific case that that's inappropriate, or

1328
01:06:52,599 --> 01:06:54,480
is it a case that we're making on some other grounds?

1329
01:06:54,519 --> 01:06:56,599
Like I see in the Judeo Christian tradition, one of

1330
01:06:56,599 --> 01:06:59,400
the earliest pronouncements is that both men and women carry

1331
01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:00,719
the image of both.

1332
01:07:01,199 --> 01:07:05,880
Speaker 5: And that's such a certain tone to everything remarkable.

1333
01:07:07,440 --> 01:07:09,400
Speaker 1: I mean, he's pressing him here. I wish he'd let

1334
01:07:09,480 --> 01:07:14,920
him answer here, because you know, Dawkins famously is prod pop, right,

1335
01:07:15,000 --> 01:07:19,360
so he actually believes in most of the Malthusian ideas,

1336
01:07:20,079 --> 01:07:22,880
and UH is an advocate for deep pop and so,

1337
01:07:23,039 --> 01:07:24,920
but I'm supposed to believe that he cares about women's

1338
01:07:24,920 --> 01:07:27,760
oppression and that they're having their cotoruses removed. I mean

1339
01:07:27,960 --> 01:07:30,280
that to me, that's just so preposterous.

1340
01:07:29,599 --> 01:07:31,880
Speaker 7: That I want them to be less people, but I

1341
01:07:32,159 --> 01:07:33,559
want them all kids to be around.

1342
01:07:33,840 --> 01:07:38,440
Speaker 3: Yeah. So yeah, so if God, if the Canaanite story

1343
01:07:39,079 --> 01:07:41,800
was around deep pop and it was just a population problem,

1344
01:07:41,840 --> 01:07:43,320
they'd just be like oh yeah, like.

1345
01:07:43,320 --> 01:07:43,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

1346
01:07:46,639 --> 01:07:50,039
Speaker 2: It seems as though he basically is just completely denying

1347
01:07:50,239 --> 01:07:51,440
metaphysical truth here.

1348
01:07:51,480 --> 01:07:52,960
Speaker 4: I mean, am I am I wrong in studying that?

1349
01:07:53,079 --> 01:07:53,639
Speaker 1: It seems like it?

1350
01:07:53,719 --> 01:07:56,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely yeah, because he said something he said, well,

1351
01:07:56,760 --> 01:08:00,480
I'm concerned with uh. Scientific truth is tru to stick

1352
01:08:00,480 --> 01:08:02,920
at us to the moon and you. And the thing

1353
01:08:02,960 --> 01:08:05,679
that Jordan's pointing to in a very roundabout way is

1354
01:08:05,719 --> 01:08:10,360
just saying, like, know that the functionality the engineering that

1355
01:08:10,400 --> 01:08:13,719
you can point to in the world doesn't encapsulate why

1356
01:08:13,760 --> 01:08:16,479
we ought to pursue the engineering towards some goal. It

1357
01:08:16,479 --> 01:08:19,880
doesn't tell us that part, and Peterson's having a He

1358
01:08:19,960 --> 01:08:23,039
needs to simplify with Dawkins and say, where in the

1359
01:08:23,079 --> 01:08:26,680
process of science and engineering do you get the value

1360
01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:29,079
of using it?

1361
01:08:29,119 --> 01:08:31,119
Speaker 1: Is it very simple way, Jimbob In the past you

1362
01:08:31,199 --> 01:08:34,720
pointed out like if lies can help me get to

1363
01:08:34,800 --> 01:08:38,039
my goal, then I should lie.

1364
01:08:38,439 --> 01:08:41,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, yep, that's what they have to He has to

1365
01:08:41,520 --> 01:08:44,000
admit that that's a really sharp way of doing it,

1366
01:08:44,079 --> 01:08:47,560
just like I learned that myself, just going why ought

1367
01:08:47,560 --> 01:08:51,760
we not lie if it produces X value? Arbitrary value?

1368
01:08:51,760 --> 01:08:53,640
They can't they go silent every time.

1369
01:08:54,680 --> 01:08:55,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, No, it is very interesting.

1370
01:08:55,920 --> 01:08:57,720
Speaker 2: I would like to see Jordan Pterison do that a

1371
01:08:57,720 --> 01:09:01,319
little bit more, because Dolkins he says that, well, there's

1372
01:09:01,359 --> 01:09:03,720
no he says there's a hierarchy, and then he says

1373
01:09:03,760 --> 01:09:06,000
that there is sort of no metaphysical truth and we

1374
01:09:06,039 --> 01:09:07,760
can't rank order it, but we can rank order it.

1375
01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:10,000
Then I'm gonna grant myself some sort of a moral

1376
01:09:10,199 --> 01:09:12,640
high horse by saying that, Yeah, I mean.

1377
01:09:12,760 --> 01:09:14,720
Speaker 4: It's it's really is all over the place.

1378
01:09:14,479 --> 01:09:16,000
Speaker 2: When you stop and just think about it and break

1379
01:09:16,000 --> 01:09:18,680
it down a little bit, all right, carry on.

1380
01:09:19,399 --> 01:09:22,199
Speaker 8: It's radical age that both men and women are carry

1381
01:09:22,199 --> 01:09:24,279
the carry the image of God and to be treated

1382
01:09:24,319 --> 01:09:26,840
as something with intrinsic value outside of the domain of

1383
01:09:26,840 --> 01:09:29,039
power and politics. And it isn't obvious to me, It

1384
01:09:29,079 --> 01:09:31,399
isn't obvious to me, having thought about this a lot,

1385
01:09:31,560 --> 01:09:33,560
how we deal with that in the pure realm of fact,

1386
01:09:33,720 --> 01:09:35,840
Because one of the facts is if I can oppress you,

1387
01:09:35,920 --> 01:09:37,000
why the hell shouldn't I?

1388
01:09:37,159 --> 01:09:38,439
Speaker 6: And my job is to keep things on track here.

1389
01:09:38,439 --> 01:09:41,560
Speaker 9: I think there are a number of questions quite directly, yeah,

1390
01:09:41,560 --> 01:09:42,800
that we still haven't really heard an answer.

1391
01:09:42,800 --> 01:09:45,000
Speaker 5: Okay, okay, that's asking about the verge of.

1392
01:09:45,960 --> 01:09:46,520
Speaker 3: Was that the save?

1393
01:09:46,840 --> 01:09:47,039
Speaker 6: Jay?

1394
01:09:47,119 --> 01:09:47,319
Speaker 5: Yeah?

1395
01:09:47,319 --> 01:09:47,880
Speaker 3: That was the save?

1396
01:09:48,039 --> 01:09:48,199
Speaker 4: Right?

1397
01:09:48,520 --> 01:09:50,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's yeah, that was a save.

1398
01:09:50,319 --> 01:09:52,520
Speaker 2: So why do you think that that deflection happened there?

1399
01:09:52,560 --> 01:09:52,720
Speaker 4: Jerk?

1400
01:09:52,760 --> 01:09:54,439
Speaker 2: And because Alex could sort of sense that there was

1401
01:09:54,479 --> 01:09:55,600
a bit of a press upcoming.

1402
01:09:57,960 --> 01:10:01,199
Speaker 1: I think he's probably heard the objection from the moral

1403
01:10:01,800 --> 01:10:05,560
side many many times. If I recall, this was the

1404
01:10:05,560 --> 01:10:09,159
Trent O'Connor debate, and Trent really nailed him on this point,

1405
01:10:09,159 --> 01:10:11,560
and I think this is precisely where he completely collapsed

1406
01:10:11,560 --> 01:10:14,960
in that debate. So he probably senses that this is

1407
01:10:15,000 --> 01:10:16,279
going to be a tough area.

1408
01:10:16,720 --> 01:10:19,840
Speaker 3: That would be like also meta meta ethics. Once you

1409
01:10:19,880 --> 01:10:23,359
go through that door, it's it's you're on You're on

1410
01:10:23,439 --> 01:10:25,840
it basically here in that room. And so I think

1411
01:10:25,880 --> 01:10:28,119
he might also just to be try to be charitable.

1412
01:10:28,159 --> 01:10:33,000
He might also know that if he lets that path happen,

1413
01:10:33,079 --> 01:10:35,560
it's it might just open a can of worms and

1414
01:10:35,600 --> 01:10:37,399
install the show or.

1415
01:10:37,319 --> 01:10:38,000
Speaker 4: Something like this.

1416
01:10:38,199 --> 01:10:41,399
Speaker 3: But yeah, I think he's defined. I think he defended though.

1417
01:10:41,439 --> 01:10:43,239
I think he that was a defense move.

1418
01:10:44,119 --> 01:10:44,479
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1419
01:10:44,520 --> 01:10:47,520
Speaker 2: So you guys can see Jim Bubbs and Jay's channels

1420
01:10:47,520 --> 01:10:49,880
and Jim Bob's got his link to bub Chats in

1421
01:10:49,960 --> 01:10:51,720
the in the comments as well, if you guys want

1422
01:10:51,720 --> 01:10:56,119
to check that as well. Support the support these guys channels. Yeah, yeah, No,

1423
01:10:56,199 --> 01:10:58,439
it is a little bit frustrating there. And just quickly, Jay,

1424
01:10:58,520 --> 01:11:01,560
where how exactly do you think Trent Horn dismantled him

1425
01:11:02,119 --> 01:11:03,640
on this on this particular point.

1426
01:11:04,800 --> 01:11:06,840
Speaker 1: I'm trying to remember. This has been some years, but

1427
01:11:08,039 --> 01:11:12,319
I think at that time O'Connor was a vegan and

1428
01:11:12,399 --> 01:11:16,520
he was trying to defend vegan ethics within an atheist paradigm,

1429
01:11:16,720 --> 01:11:21,680
and I think Trent was nailing him on just again

1430
01:11:21,760 --> 01:11:26,079
the need for you know, justifying these moral claims in

1431
01:11:26,119 --> 01:11:28,880
an atheist paradigm, especially if you think that you know,

1432
01:11:28,920 --> 01:11:33,279
there's there's animal ethics or whatever's that's what I remember,

1433
01:11:33,319 --> 01:11:35,000
but it's been many years since I've listened to it.

1434
01:11:35,760 --> 01:11:36,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, all right, cool.

1435
01:11:36,640 --> 01:11:38,359
Speaker 2: So the next bit they're going to go into is

1436
01:11:38,399 --> 01:11:42,079
when Dawkins tries to sort of nail down Peterson on

1437
01:11:42,159 --> 01:11:45,560
the virgin birth, Well, do you actually believe it happened?

1438
01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:47,720
And I think that this is a bit of a

1439
01:11:47,720 --> 01:11:49,359
confusing part, but we'll get into it.

1440
01:11:49,479 --> 01:11:51,600
Speaker 9: Thinking about myth, I think anybody listening to this conversation

1441
01:11:51,600 --> 01:11:54,760
will understand that maybe a society that doesn't believe in

1442
01:11:54,760 --> 01:11:56,960
the virgin birth won't work. Maybe that's the predictive how

1443
01:11:56,960 --> 01:11:59,239
are they we're talking about? But I think you must

1444
01:11:59,359 --> 01:12:01,520
understand that when Professor Dowlkins is asking you do you

1445
01:12:01,520 --> 01:12:03,479
believe that Jesus was born of a virgin? He means

1446
01:12:03,560 --> 01:12:05,680
something like a biological fact. And by the way, it's saying,

1447
01:12:05,720 --> 01:12:07,039
I don't know what was saying. You know, I'm not

1448
01:12:07,119 --> 01:12:09,920
qualified to comment. He's an answer to that question, but

1449
01:12:09,960 --> 01:12:11,359
it is not your answer that you that you don't know.

1450
01:12:11,479 --> 01:12:14,279
Speaker 8: I said earlier, and I would hold to this, is

1451
01:12:14,279 --> 01:12:16,239
that there are elements of the text that I don't

1452
01:12:16,239 --> 01:12:20,000
know how to that I'm incapable of fully accounting for.

1453
01:12:20,479 --> 01:12:24,119
I can't account for for what the what the fundamental

1454
01:12:24,119 --> 01:12:26,279
reality and significance of the notion of the resurrection is

1455
01:12:26,359 --> 01:12:29,479
my my knowledgist ends, sure, but I know that whatever happened,

1456
01:12:29,920 --> 01:12:32,640
whatever happened as a consequence of the origination and the

1457
01:12:32,640 --> 01:12:34,760
promotion of the Christian story was powerful enough to bring

1458
01:12:34,840 --> 01:12:37,199
Rome to its knees and demolish the pagan enterprise.

1459
01:12:37,600 --> 01:12:40,399
Speaker 5: So there's some power in that story that's remarked christ.

1460
01:12:41,479 --> 01:12:44,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, the virgin births results from a mistranslation of Isaiah.

1461
01:12:44,960 --> 01:12:45,279
You know that.

1462
01:12:46,039 --> 01:12:50,800
Speaker 8: I'm like these sorts of questions, it's what would you say?

1463
01:12:50,880 --> 01:12:54,439
They don't They don't strike me as they're not getting

1464
01:12:54,439 --> 01:12:58,520
to the point. Well, look, I understand that there's there's

1465
01:12:58,680 --> 01:13:00,640
perfect reasons to debate this. I I know that, and

1466
01:13:00,680 --> 01:13:02,880
I know that your question is more than valid. But

1467
01:13:03,039 --> 01:13:05,000
it's beside the issue as far as I'm concerned. And

1468
01:13:05,279 --> 01:13:09,239
it's partly because, well, when we started this conversation, I said,

1469
01:13:09,239 --> 01:13:11,800
for example, that it appears to be the case that

1470
01:13:12,159 --> 01:13:14,079
a description of the structure through which we see the

1471
01:13:14,079 --> 01:13:17,039
world is a story. We see the world through a story,

1472
01:13:17,720 --> 01:13:20,520
and so that's a remarkable thing. That's a remarkable discovery.

1473
01:13:20,520 --> 01:13:22,720
And it's emerged probably in the last sixteen years, sixty

1474
01:13:22,760 --> 01:13:25,840
years in multiple disciplines, because we have to prioritize our facts,

1475
01:13:26,000 --> 01:13:28,399
and so we prioritize them according to a particular pattern.

1476
01:13:28,560 --> 01:13:30,319
And there are patterns that seem to work and to

1477
01:13:30,359 --> 01:13:33,560
propagate themselves properly and orient cultures towards life abundant.

1478
01:13:33,600 --> 01:13:35,399
Speaker 5: And there are other patterns, the pattern.

1479
01:13:35,079 --> 01:13:38,079
Speaker 8: Of Kine, for example, that lead to absolute, bloody devastation.

1480
01:13:38,359 --> 01:13:40,119
And I don't know exactly how to construe that sort

1481
01:13:40,159 --> 01:13:42,279
of truth, But we talked about the oppression of women

1482
01:13:42,319 --> 01:13:44,199
for examples, like how do you make a case on

1483
01:13:44,199 --> 01:13:47,039
purely factual grounds that women should be treated as equals.

1484
01:13:47,880 --> 01:13:50,520
Speaker 6: It's a moral question, and I know that's exactly why

1485
01:13:50,560 --> 01:13:52,439
I was leaping with a fatal question, which is did

1486
01:13:52,520 --> 01:13:55,079
Jesus have a father for the one bouncer.

1487
01:13:56,119 --> 01:13:59,520
Speaker 8: Father and a heavenly father like almost all mythological heroes.

1488
01:13:59,520 --> 01:14:02,000
Speaker 6: Of a virgin then, so you know you're saying that

1489
01:14:02,039 --> 01:14:03,239
James was not born of a virgin.

1490
01:14:04,039 --> 01:14:10,520
Speaker 3: Okay, here we have enough here What's funny about the

1491
01:14:10,520 --> 01:14:15,039
whole pres up is that Dawkins, by asking the question,

1492
01:14:15,279 --> 01:14:19,479
he's asking from his paradigm, and he's presupposing naturalism. And

1493
01:14:19,560 --> 01:14:23,840
so if Jordan responds stuck in the naturalist view, he's

1494
01:14:23,840 --> 01:14:25,920
going to sound ridiculous saying yes, I believe in the

1495
01:14:26,000 --> 01:14:29,239
virgin birth, because he's comparing it to a natural account

1496
01:14:29,279 --> 01:14:31,760
of what we know of what birth means in the

1497
01:14:31,840 --> 01:14:36,239
natural sense. It's a category error. So Peterson could simply

1498
01:14:36,239 --> 01:14:38,760
say yes, I believe that, and for you to cross

1499
01:14:38,760 --> 01:14:41,640
examine it from your naturalistic point of view is just

1500
01:14:41,680 --> 01:14:42,760
a category error.

1501
01:14:43,000 --> 01:14:43,159
Speaker 1: Right.

1502
01:14:43,239 --> 01:14:47,279
Speaker 3: We're talking about two fundamental different areas of truth claims here,

1503
01:14:48,479 --> 01:14:52,000
and so you know that's that's dawkins trick. Is Oh,

1504
01:14:52,079 --> 01:14:54,159
I want to get him to say birth is possible

1505
01:14:54,279 --> 01:14:57,960
without six yes from a Christian paradigm in that in

1506
01:14:58,000 --> 01:15:01,760
that in that sense, absolutely just bite the bullet. Now,

1507
01:15:02,199 --> 01:15:05,880
why Peterson doesn't bite the bullet. I think it's fair

1508
01:15:05,920 --> 01:15:08,199
to say, in some cases I do it myself. I'm

1509
01:15:08,199 --> 01:15:11,119
not well versed enough to answer that biblical biblically.

1510
01:15:11,159 --> 01:15:11,479
Speaker 5: I don't.

1511
01:15:11,520 --> 01:15:14,520
Speaker 3: I don't, I can't do it. That's different than saying

1512
01:15:14,880 --> 01:15:17,479
yes from the Christian paradigm. I believe that not only

1513
01:15:17,560 --> 01:15:21,840
virgin birth is possible and completely coherent within that system,

1514
01:15:22,119 --> 01:15:24,760
but all other miracles are as well. And if you

1515
01:15:24,800 --> 01:15:27,479
measure those against the naturalistic paradigm what we know of

1516
01:15:27,560 --> 01:15:30,960
the laws of physics, it won't work out. But that's

1517
01:15:31,039 --> 01:15:33,960
not our problem. That's your problem as a physicalist, right,

1518
01:15:34,760 --> 01:15:38,119
And so Peterson's on defense. Unfortunately he needs to be

1519
01:15:38,159 --> 01:15:38,800
on offense.

1520
01:15:39,159 --> 01:15:42,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. I think this was really the weakest point

1521
01:15:42,760 --> 01:15:47,439
where you know, he did ask some good questions to Dawkins,

1522
01:15:47,479 --> 01:15:49,520
but Dawkins turned it back and said, but but I'm

1523
01:15:49,520 --> 01:15:54,039
asking you about the virgin birth, and I would add

1524
01:15:54,079 --> 01:15:57,640
that again, he is incorrect when he says it's a

1525
01:15:57,640 --> 01:16:01,199
mistranslation of the text. Both the masoretic texts in the

1526
01:16:01,199 --> 01:16:04,920
Hebrew and the subtuagent in the Greek say therefore, the

1527
01:16:04,920 --> 01:16:07,359
Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a virgin

1528
01:16:07,399 --> 01:16:10,800
shall conceive, he will bear Embar's son, he shall call

1529
01:16:10,840 --> 01:16:12,920
his name Emmanuel. I mean both of the texts. So

1530
01:16:12,920 --> 01:16:15,720
it's not a translation issue, it's an interpretation issue to

1531
01:16:15,800 --> 01:16:18,720
where you know, most for example, Jews do not believe

1532
01:16:18,760 --> 01:16:24,640
that that's a Mesianic prophecy Christians do. That's an interpretation issue,

1533
01:16:24,680 --> 01:16:26,600
it's not a translation issue. So he doesn't know what

1534
01:16:26,640 --> 01:16:29,760
he's talking about. But I think this was a really

1535
01:16:29,800 --> 01:16:33,479
weak point where Peterson really should have But then again,

1536
01:16:33,520 --> 01:16:35,319
you know, I guess he's being honest because he actually

1537
01:16:35,319 --> 01:16:38,159
doesn't believe in the worldview, and he sees it really

1538
01:16:38,199 --> 01:16:42,199
as just something that is useful in a mythological sense

1539
01:16:42,279 --> 01:16:45,560
for societies and civilizations to have stories that give them

1540
01:16:45,600 --> 01:16:49,439
meaning and purpose. So it's all purely like for Peterson,

1541
01:16:49,560 --> 01:16:53,520
all of these things are purely this world. They're only

1542
01:16:53,760 --> 01:16:57,359
this this plane. There's nothing that ever ties it. And

1543
01:16:57,199 --> 01:16:58,479
he and he admits that when he says, I don't

1544
01:16:58,520 --> 01:17:02,680
understand the resurrection, because in the Christian story, the resurrection

1545
01:17:02,840 --> 01:17:05,920
is the purpose of the deification of all creation. So

1546
01:17:06,000 --> 01:17:09,880
that is all the messages the resurrection. That's the key point.

1547
01:17:09,920 --> 01:17:13,199
And it's very ironic that Peterson admits, I don't understand

1548
01:17:13,239 --> 01:17:16,199
the resurrection. Well, that's the purpose, that's all purpose of

1549
01:17:16,239 --> 01:17:17,479
all of it. Yeah.

1550
01:17:17,520 --> 01:17:21,079
Speaker 3: And also just to point out, he could just use

1551
01:17:21,159 --> 01:17:24,560
his ignorant or naive position right here and still use

1552
01:17:24,600 --> 01:17:28,960
it against Dawkins. And here's how if he just grants fine.

1553
01:17:29,239 --> 01:17:33,439
Virgin birth sounds absurd right from this view, the question

1554
01:17:33,520 --> 01:17:36,359
of are women equal to men? And why ought men

1555
01:17:36,479 --> 01:17:38,960
not just use power over women or something like this.

1556
01:17:39,119 --> 01:17:42,560
He's forcing Dawkins to also believe in some sort of

1557
01:17:42,640 --> 01:17:46,000
myth or something he doesn't actually believe is true in reality,

1558
01:17:46,039 --> 01:17:49,079
because the truth of reality is brute force in the

1559
01:17:49,199 --> 01:17:54,760
natural worldview. And so Peterson was actually smart to specifically

1560
01:17:54,880 --> 01:17:59,680
use the inequality of women and men that's often used

1561
01:17:59,680 --> 01:18:03,560
from the atheist view to critique Christianity, which has a hierarchy.

1562
01:18:05,399 --> 01:18:08,399
They have to admit believing in things like rights, believing

1563
01:18:08,439 --> 01:18:11,800
in equality. These are all mythical under their own view.

1564
01:18:11,840 --> 01:18:16,439
They're inconsistent with nature, they're inconsistent with induction and things,

1565
01:18:16,960 --> 01:18:20,319
And so he's still trapped. Even if Jordan had had

1566
01:18:20,359 --> 01:18:23,520
problems biting the bullet on the virgin birth or whatever

1567
01:18:23,600 --> 01:18:27,239
other examples, he can still use it against Dawkins, but

1568
01:18:27,239 --> 01:18:29,560
he just isn't trained to, or he just doesn't. I don't,

1569
01:18:29,560 --> 01:18:31,960
I don't know what it is. At three thirty, I

1570
01:18:32,000 --> 01:18:33,600
have to leave you. I can come back on if

1571
01:18:33,600 --> 01:18:35,560
you still are doing it at like four thirty, but

1572
01:18:35,920 --> 01:18:36,600
I gotta.

1573
01:18:36,520 --> 01:18:38,880
Speaker 2: I think we'll probably go for about another another half

1574
01:18:38,920 --> 01:18:40,359
an hour or so. Man, So yeah, we'll just maybe

1575
01:18:40,359 --> 01:18:43,239
play one more clip and uh, and then we'll let

1576
01:18:43,239 --> 01:18:43,520
you leave.

1577
01:18:43,560 --> 01:18:43,680
Speaker 4: Bro.

1578
01:18:43,920 --> 01:18:51,960
Speaker 6: By the way, ultimate not a value fact that there's

1579
01:18:51,960 --> 01:18:54,079
the universe where virgins do conceive.

1580
01:18:54,319 --> 01:18:57,600
Speaker 3: That's right, that's right. Yeah, there's a universal he can

1581
01:18:57,640 --> 01:18:59,720
be the Dawkins God, but not one where there's a

1582
01:18:59,760 --> 01:19:00,399
virgin earth.

1583
01:19:00,439 --> 01:19:00,680
Speaker 2: Got it.

1584
01:19:00,760 --> 01:19:01,880
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah.

1585
01:19:01,920 --> 01:19:04,680
Speaker 2: It's interesting though, because if Peterson is does consider himself

1586
01:19:04,720 --> 01:19:07,039
a Christian, he does believe that Jesus is God's only

1587
01:19:07,039 --> 01:19:10,399
begotten son, then I don't really see what's too problematic

1588
01:19:10,439 --> 01:19:12,520
with him sort of stepping into that and like leaning

1589
01:19:12,560 --> 01:19:14,119
into a little bit and being like, yeah, I mean

1590
01:19:14,199 --> 01:19:16,640
I do think that that's true. But then it sort

1591
01:19:16,640 --> 01:19:21,520
of raises the question of if Peterson is actually a Christian.

1592
01:19:22,119 --> 01:19:24,239
Do do you guys think that he is actually he

1593
01:19:24,279 --> 01:19:27,920
actually believes that Jesus is God's begotten son and he

1594
01:19:28,000 --> 01:19:29,800
believes these things, or do you think that he's evasive

1595
01:19:29,840 --> 01:19:32,079
because he actually doesn't know if he believes those things.

1596
01:19:32,399 --> 01:19:34,199
Speaker 1: No, I think he really doesn't know if he believes

1597
01:19:34,199 --> 01:19:37,079
it yet, and he's pretty you know, consistent. I mean,

1598
01:19:37,079 --> 01:19:40,800
I think he leans towards it, but you have to

1599
01:19:40,840 --> 01:19:43,039
believe that in the orthodox sense. You know, you can't

1600
01:19:43,079 --> 01:19:46,720
you can't like make up what that means for you

1601
01:19:46,960 --> 01:19:50,239
or something like that, or in some psychological mythological meaning.

1602
01:19:50,279 --> 01:19:52,000
It has to be in the sense of the second

1603
01:19:52,000 --> 01:19:55,079
person of the God had becoming incarnate, dying, you know,

1604
01:19:55,119 --> 01:19:59,359
descending it the eighties, resurrecting and ascending, and that's for us,

1605
01:19:59,399 --> 01:20:01,800
that's really the only only sense in which it believed.

1606
01:20:02,239 --> 01:20:04,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, he kind of uses it as a Swiss army

1607
01:20:04,960 --> 01:20:08,840
knife of sorts, because even his argument that societies collapse,

1608
01:20:08,960 --> 01:20:12,359
there is a truth, a cyclical truth across time where

1609
01:20:12,520 --> 01:20:15,760
people start they get to modernity and prosperity, and then

1610
01:20:15,800 --> 01:20:18,279
they they take for granted things and then they start

1611
01:20:18,279 --> 01:20:21,119
denying universal things and customs and norms, and it all

1612
01:20:21,159 --> 01:20:24,520
sort of becomes this gray sludge and it falls apart.

1613
01:20:24,760 --> 01:20:29,159
We can see that across time. But Peterson's argument that

1614
01:20:29,239 --> 01:20:32,199
if you don't acknowledge or believe even the falsity, the

1615
01:20:32,239 --> 01:20:37,439
potential falsity of virgin birth, any culture says that denies

1616
01:20:37,479 --> 01:20:39,960
it can't function. This is a tech This is a

1617
01:20:40,000 --> 01:20:45,119
technology perspective which holding a Christian view, you wouldn't use

1618
01:20:45,279 --> 01:20:49,239
Christianity as a technology to keep the outcomes of the

1619
01:20:49,279 --> 01:20:54,079
world at their peak. Preference points right, This is a

1620
01:20:54,119 --> 01:20:58,000
weird way to argue for Christianity. Christianity in its practice

1621
01:20:58,359 --> 01:21:02,279
might produce out comes you prefer, but it also might not.

1622
01:21:02,840 --> 01:21:05,439
And so what Jay's pointing too is there's a higher

1623
01:21:05,479 --> 01:21:08,319
calling to what it is to be Christian in your

1624
01:21:08,520 --> 01:21:12,600
in your activity, in your attendance, in the way you are,

1625
01:21:12,760 --> 01:21:16,239
in what you produce, your fruits, et cetera. But Peterson's

1626
01:21:16,520 --> 01:21:21,359
looking at it like a necessary mechanism for a functioning society,

1627
01:21:21,960 --> 01:21:25,119
which is a It can be an okay argument, it's

1628
01:21:25,159 --> 01:21:27,079
just not the argument for why it would be true

1629
01:21:27,159 --> 01:21:29,239
or why you ought to pursue it. It can't be

1630
01:21:29,399 --> 01:21:31,960
linked to some sort of like it's the He kind

1631
01:21:31,960 --> 01:21:34,760
of sees it as like the training wheels on a

1632
01:21:34,800 --> 01:21:37,479
bicycle or something. He's like, all the bikes that abandoned

1633
01:21:37,520 --> 01:21:40,239
the Christian training wheels fell over. It's like, and I

1634
01:21:40,680 --> 01:21:44,640
hate unicycles. They're abhorrent. It's it's like, that's we get

1635
01:21:44,640 --> 01:21:46,920
what he's saying. But it also is why he's so

1636
01:21:47,039 --> 01:21:50,399
popular is because this sort of middle ground. I would

1637
01:21:50,439 --> 01:21:55,760
say lukewarm Christians love that approach. I mean it's so accessible.

1638
01:21:55,800 --> 01:21:59,439
I even went through a phase early on before I

1639
01:21:59,479 --> 01:22:02,960
found orth doxy is. I did see the value that

1640
01:22:03,039 --> 01:22:05,920
I was like, oh, you can grab that thing and

1641
01:22:05,960 --> 01:22:07,520
it kind of works and you have it as like

1642
01:22:07,560 --> 01:22:11,720
a little sword you can use. But ultimately it fails,

1643
01:22:11,760 --> 01:22:12,880
and it's failing with Peterson.

1644
01:22:13,239 --> 01:22:16,880
Speaker 2: So so Jimbob, if you got a hot out at three,

1645
01:22:18,000 --> 01:22:20,800
it is yeah, five more minutes, yeah, would I just

1646
01:22:20,840 --> 01:22:23,159
want to actually go through one more bit here about

1647
01:22:23,199 --> 01:22:24,680
the bronze serpent that you do.

1648
01:22:24,840 --> 01:22:26,199
Speaker 4: Spose we'll just skip a little bit.

1649
01:22:26,399 --> 01:22:28,479
Speaker 6: That's how old the universe is, how old the world is,

1650
01:22:29,079 --> 01:22:34,560
the history of life, the engineering achievements of landing a

1651
01:22:35,800 --> 01:22:40,439
spacecraft on a comet, these are the things that science

1652
01:22:40,479 --> 01:22:43,479
can do. And as I said, the predictions of quantum theory.

1653
01:22:43,479 --> 01:22:45,000
To come back to that, the predictions of the countum

1654
01:22:45,039 --> 01:22:48,279
theory which are verified to a sufficient number of vesting

1655
01:22:48,359 --> 01:22:51,000
places that it's equivalent to predicting the North America to

1656
01:22:51,079 --> 01:22:54,760
one has. But now that is, however difficult quantum theory

1657
01:22:54,800 --> 01:22:57,000
is to understand. That is what you can get from

1658
01:22:57,079 --> 01:22:59,680
quantum theory. Now, the mysteries of the Bible. If they

1659
01:22:59,680 --> 01:23:02,000
are miss Trees aren't doing the same league. I mean,

1660
01:23:02,000 --> 01:23:03,479
they just don't cut it.

1661
01:23:04,720 --> 01:23:08,119
Speaker 8: Attention, man who still believe in the American the scientific

1662
01:23:08,199 --> 01:23:12,640
enterprise itself. You appear to agree with Alex that there

1663
01:23:12,720 --> 01:23:17,520
might be presumptions axioms that need to be accepted. I

1664
01:23:17,560 --> 01:23:18,840
don't want to put words in your mouth because I

1665
01:23:18,840 --> 01:23:21,039
want to get this right before the scientific enterprise can

1666
01:23:21,079 --> 01:23:23,239
beget So I've tried to think those truths. Let me

1667
01:23:23,279 --> 01:23:25,000
lay out a couple of them. This is partly what

1668
01:23:25,039 --> 01:23:26,680
I've done while trying to make the case, for example,

1669
01:23:26,720 --> 01:23:27,760
that you're more of a Christian and you.

1670
01:23:27,760 --> 01:23:28,520
Speaker 5: Think you are so.

1671
01:23:28,640 --> 01:23:33,600
Speaker 8: For example, I think that scientific enterprise is motivated by

1672
01:23:33,640 --> 01:23:36,239
the axiomatic presumption that truth tends towards a unity.

1673
01:23:36,479 --> 01:23:38,239
Speaker 5: I think that it's predicated on the.

1674
01:23:38,199 --> 01:23:41,479
Speaker 8: Notion that there is a logical order that's intrinsic to

1675
01:23:41,560 --> 01:23:44,520
the cosmos, that that fundamental order is good, that it's

1676
01:23:44,560 --> 01:23:48,199
intelligible to human beings, and that discovering that order and

1677
01:23:48,239 --> 01:23:51,720
aligning ourselves with it makes for life more abundant. I

1678
01:23:51,760 --> 01:23:54,239
think that the scientific enterprise is also predicated on.

1679
01:23:54,159 --> 01:23:55,760
Speaker 5: The idea that the truth will set you free.

1680
01:23:55,920 --> 01:23:58,079
Speaker 8: And I think all of those axioms are religious and

1681
01:23:58,119 --> 01:23:59,720
derived from the Judaeo Christian tradition.

1682
01:24:00,000 --> 01:24:01,920
Speaker 5: And if you don't believe that, you have to account

1683
01:24:01,920 --> 01:24:02,640
for why.

1684
01:24:02,479 --> 01:24:04,800
Speaker 8: Science emerged in Europe and nowhere else in the entire

1685
01:24:04,840 --> 01:24:08,560
history of humanity, for example, and why it's also why

1686
01:24:08,560 --> 01:24:11,079
it's under assault from like all quarters now as that

1687
01:24:11,199 --> 01:24:14,840
underlying metaphysic disappears. Like you haven't had to be concerned

1688
01:24:14,840 --> 01:24:17,920
with the mythological substrate in your lifetime in some sense,

1689
01:24:17,960 --> 01:24:20,680
because it was intact and so the universities could flourish,

1690
01:24:20,760 --> 01:24:23,720
and you had your freedom, remarkable freedom to pursue your

1691
01:24:23,720 --> 01:24:25,279
scientific enterprise wherever you wanted it.

1692
01:24:25,439 --> 01:24:27,039
Speaker 5: People lauded you for it.

1693
01:24:27,119 --> 01:24:30,880
Speaker 8: Like that time is that time is threatened, and seriously so.

1694
01:24:31,199 --> 01:24:34,079
And I think it's partly because these metaphysical assumptions have

1695
01:24:34,199 --> 01:24:36,199
now become questionable, and that's part of the reason that

1696
01:24:36,239 --> 01:24:38,359
I'm attending to them. It's not because I don't admire

1697
01:24:38,399 --> 01:24:41,880
the accuracy of quantum prediction, for example, or celebrate what

1698
01:24:42,000 --> 01:24:44,640
Musk is doing with his capability of sending rockets to

1699
01:24:44,640 --> 01:24:47,319
the Mars. It's like more power to the technological enterprise.

1700
01:24:47,359 --> 01:24:50,319
But you know what's happening in the universities. It's awful

1701
01:24:50,560 --> 01:24:50,880
and that.

1702
01:24:52,239 --> 01:24:55,359
Speaker 2: All right, So just before we do this, Jimbob, do

1703
01:24:55,359 --> 01:24:57,640
you maybe want to sign out and let everyone know

1704
01:24:57,680 --> 01:24:58,359
where they can find you.

1705
01:24:58,680 --> 01:25:01,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll just touch on that part really quick. Is

1706
01:25:01,079 --> 01:25:07,880
that again Dawkins is making category or he might as

1707
01:25:07,880 --> 01:25:11,479
well say, well, what's the purpose of using a calculator

1708
01:25:11,520 --> 01:25:14,279
if we have a thermomeata. It's like they are two

1709
01:25:14,359 --> 01:25:19,119
different things that provide two different values. Let's say, so

1710
01:25:19,399 --> 01:25:24,800
he keeps comparing biblical analysis or what we derive as

1711
01:25:24,840 --> 01:25:28,840
a value from a biblical narrative. He keeps equating that

1712
01:25:28,920 --> 01:25:33,800
with like engineering or something. Right, But again he's trapping himself.

1713
01:25:34,159 --> 01:25:37,039
I wish someone other than Peterson could sit in the seat,

1714
01:25:37,079 --> 01:25:40,680
because all you have to do from this perspective is say, okay,

1715
01:25:40,840 --> 01:25:44,319
so you derive your value from just arbitrary use, so

1716
01:25:44,720 --> 01:25:48,960
arbitrary goals. As long as I could use X belief

1717
01:25:49,279 --> 01:25:53,159
for a goal, then it's valid. Right, Okay, we've established

1718
01:25:53,199 --> 01:25:56,079
the goal from Christianity, even if it was false. It

1719
01:25:56,159 --> 01:25:59,159
provides the same level of utility. It meets your standard

1720
01:25:59,199 --> 01:26:02,720
for utility. And it's like, that's why it's so confusing.

1721
01:26:03,079 --> 01:26:07,319
He's like, I believe I want values in truths, and you're, well,

1722
01:26:08,359 --> 01:26:11,359
we have a system that gives you why you ought

1723
01:26:11,399 --> 01:26:16,159
to pursue truth descriptively and from the perspective of truth

1724
01:26:16,199 --> 01:26:19,960
being a person, Dawkins doesn't have an answer. I wish

1725
01:26:20,159 --> 01:26:23,640
Peterson would just keep drilling them. Why should we pursue

1726
01:26:23,640 --> 01:26:26,720
the lie of say equality? Why should we There's no

1727
01:26:26,800 --> 01:26:29,439
equality in nature? What are you talking about? Why should

1728
01:26:29,479 --> 01:26:32,359
we pursue it? From this enlightenment approach, he won't be

1729
01:26:32,399 --> 01:26:33,520
able to defend himself.

1730
01:26:33,520 --> 01:26:35,760
Speaker 2: So anyway, that's an interesting point when you talk about

1731
01:26:35,840 --> 01:26:38,640
utility and outcomes and the fact that Christianity actually does

1732
01:26:38,720 --> 01:26:42,520
provide that, and so within Dawkins's own paradigm, within his

1733
01:26:42,560 --> 01:26:45,239
own worldview, he should be sort of completely in favor

1734
01:26:45,239 --> 01:26:48,159
of Christianity, but decides to rail against it. But anyway,

1735
01:26:48,439 --> 01:26:49,920
Jim Bob, let everyone know where they can find you.

1736
01:26:51,000 --> 01:26:52,800
Speaker 3: Thank you for tuning in, Thanks for having me on.

1737
01:26:53,439 --> 01:26:56,880
Always good to be on with Jay and Jake. Made

1738
01:26:56,880 --> 01:26:59,279
by Jimbob is my channel. Made by Jimbob is my

1739
01:27:00,079 --> 01:27:02,760
Instagram and I stream every day over at my channel

1740
01:27:03,319 --> 01:27:07,439
usually Monday through Friday. And thanks for everybody showed up

1741
01:27:07,479 --> 01:27:09,560
in the chat on all of our channels, and I'll

1742
01:27:09,560 --> 01:27:12,479
see you guys next week and whenever the next little

1743
01:27:12,840 --> 01:27:14,720
meetup is see you guys. Have a good day.

1744
01:27:14,760 --> 01:27:16,880
Speaker 2: You guys all right, take care, Jim, Bob, good to

1745
01:27:16,880 --> 01:27:17,239
see a.

1746
01:27:19,479 --> 01:27:20,119
Speaker 4: Yeah, so Jay.

1747
01:27:20,279 --> 01:27:24,359
Speaker 2: This part is really interesting because there was an interview

1748
01:27:24,520 --> 01:27:28,000
that Piers Morgan did with Richard Dawkins, I think maybe

1749
01:27:28,039 --> 01:27:30,680
earlier in the year or something, where Richard Dawkins was

1750
01:27:30,960 --> 01:27:33,680
going off about wokeness. And Richard Dawkins has written all

1751
01:27:33,760 --> 01:27:37,039
these articles about postmodernism and how it's so anti science, etc.

1752
01:27:37,600 --> 01:27:39,760
But I don't think he's able to or maybe he

1753
01:27:39,800 --> 01:27:41,960
just doesn't accept the fact that he's actually sort of

1754
01:27:42,039 --> 01:27:42,760
a part of the problem.

1755
01:27:42,800 --> 01:27:43,479
Speaker 4: Would you agree with that?

1756
01:27:44,520 --> 01:27:46,159
Speaker 1: Yeah? In fact, in My Life tream I made that

1757
01:27:46,239 --> 01:27:49,159
very point. I pointed out that he's indirectly, you could say,

1758
01:27:49,640 --> 01:27:52,279
sort of one of the high priests of this whole phenomenon,

1759
01:27:52,319 --> 01:27:54,600
because he might not have been tended these consequences. But

1760
01:27:55,199 --> 01:27:57,840
if he's the face for many years, as he is,

1761
01:27:57,880 --> 01:28:01,079
of sort of you know, we'd just monkeys, We're just

1762
01:28:01,119 --> 01:28:04,760
a little more advanced apes. You know, there's not really

1763
01:28:04,800 --> 01:28:07,920
any basis for any of these higher transcendent values that

1764
01:28:07,920 --> 01:28:11,600
we're talking about in reality, these metaphysical principles and truths.

1765
01:28:12,079 --> 01:28:16,199
Then anything goes there's really nothing but as we said earlier,

1766
01:28:16,199 --> 01:28:21,399
subjective preferences. So what's the what's wrong with me, you know,

1767
01:28:21,600 --> 01:28:26,840
become becoming a woman, what's wrong supposedly or whatever? Like,

1768
01:28:26,920 --> 01:28:30,119
none of those things are actually wrong. They might not

1769
01:28:30,279 --> 01:28:34,720
be your taste, but again there's nothing objectively inherently morally

1770
01:28:34,720 --> 01:28:37,359
wrong with it. And I think that he has to

1771
01:28:37,399 --> 01:28:40,119
be consistent and bite the bullet there if he wants to,

1772
01:28:41,600 --> 01:28:44,520
you know, continue with the position that he has. But again,

1773
01:28:44,560 --> 01:28:47,159
like like Jimba was saying, well, he doesn't even actually

1774
01:28:47,239 --> 01:28:50,640
have to be consistent. There's nothing morally guiding us or

1775
01:28:50,640 --> 01:28:53,640
impelling us to even be consistent in our world, these

1776
01:28:53,640 --> 01:28:59,279
our positions. So I think it's ultimately an incoherent, just

1777
01:28:59,279 --> 01:29:05,079
just a unjustifiable position, the radical skeptical atheist position, very inconsistent,

1778
01:29:05,119 --> 01:29:07,560
a lot of double standards. And I like this part

1779
01:29:07,640 --> 01:29:10,279
right here because this is right when Peterson pointed out

1780
01:29:10,319 --> 01:29:13,680
that the preconditions of the scientific enterprise and the ones

1781
01:29:13,680 --> 01:29:15,479
that he listed, that's very similar to what you heard

1782
01:29:15,479 --> 01:29:16,920
me say at the beginning of the show, which is

1783
01:29:16,960 --> 01:29:20,640
about pre subpositions. I use this terminology all the time

1784
01:29:20,680 --> 01:29:23,560
at preconditions. This is this whole idea of what are

1785
01:29:23,600 --> 01:29:27,000
the assumed things that are not physical, they're not material,

1786
01:29:27,159 --> 01:29:30,479
that we utilize to do, even things like science. And

1787
01:29:30,600 --> 01:29:33,560
Peterson is correctly pointing out that ultimately that points you

1788
01:29:33,640 --> 01:29:35,880
to the transcendent into the divine.

1789
01:29:36,600 --> 01:29:36,800
Speaker 4: Right.

1790
01:29:36,880 --> 01:29:41,439
Speaker 2: Okay, so we've got a super chat here from Frank,

1791
01:29:41,560 --> 01:29:42,680
says his sum cat.

1792
01:29:43,079 --> 01:29:44,319
Speaker 4: Thanks Frank, I appreciate that.

1793
01:29:44,520 --> 01:29:47,600
Speaker 2: We'll probably go one more segment here, guys, and then

1794
01:29:47,880 --> 01:29:50,239
check your super chats in if you have anything to

1795
01:29:50,279 --> 01:29:52,159
say to myself for Jay, and we'll read them out

1796
01:29:52,800 --> 01:29:54,399
and then I'll let j be on his way because

1797
01:29:54,399 --> 01:29:55,319
he's had a flu all week.

1798
01:29:55,720 --> 01:29:57,319
Speaker 4: I feel bad keeping him.

1799
01:29:57,560 --> 01:29:59,520
Speaker 5: That's not a scientific.

1800
01:29:59,039 --> 01:30:02,560
Speaker 6: Problem, it's I agree about that. I think it's an

1801
01:30:02,560 --> 01:30:06,439
interesting question why science emerged in Europe. I mean, and

1802
01:30:06,479 --> 01:30:08,800
I'm not enough of historian to know it is even

1803
01:30:08,880 --> 01:30:11,000
possible that Christianity did have something to do with that,

1804
01:30:11,079 --> 01:30:15,399
and I wouldn't categorically deny that, but that doesn't in

1805
01:30:15,439 --> 01:30:19,239
any way increase my trust in the validity of Christian

1806
01:30:19,279 --> 01:30:22,079
propositions like the resurrection of the Virgin vers and miracles,

1807
01:30:22,319 --> 01:30:25,000
and Jesus is the Son of God, and Christianity may

1808
01:30:25,000 --> 01:30:30,079
have had some kind of historical facilitating effect that led

1809
01:30:30,119 --> 01:30:34,880
to the Renaissance, that led to the scientific revolution, and

1810
01:30:35,039 --> 01:30:37,920
that will be a very interesting historical analysis, but it

1811
01:30:37,960 --> 01:30:41,880
doesn't bear upon the truth of the propositions of the

1812
01:30:41,920 --> 01:30:42,640
Christian religion.

1813
01:30:42,680 --> 01:30:46,000
Speaker 5: Okay, let's concentrate on the resurrection for a moment now. Unfortunately,

1814
01:30:46,079 --> 01:30:47,319
see this is part of the problem.

1815
01:30:47,359 --> 01:30:49,199
Speaker 8: Part of the problem with discussions like this is that

1816
01:30:49,520 --> 01:30:53,039
the mode of approach that's taken by the mythological tends

1817
01:30:53,039 --> 01:30:55,640
to circle and wander like it doesn't because you have

1818
01:30:55,720 --> 01:30:58,439
to shine light on the problem from multiple perspectives.

1819
01:30:58,520 --> 01:31:01,079
Speaker 5: That's why it's often encoded in it for example, or

1820
01:31:01,079 --> 01:31:01,520
in drama.

1821
01:31:01,680 --> 01:31:05,159
Speaker 8: It's not the same tack as a purely propositional in

1822
01:31:05,199 --> 01:31:07,199
logical argument, so it's more difficult to make. But let

1823
01:31:07,199 --> 01:31:09,319
me tell you a story that I believe bears on

1824
01:31:09,319 --> 01:31:10,960
the resurrection. You tell me what you think about it,

1825
01:31:11,039 --> 01:31:13,119
because I don't. This is a very difficult story to

1826
01:31:13,119 --> 01:31:14,720
account for. It's going to take me about five minutes

1827
01:31:14,720 --> 01:31:16,720
because it's complicated, but there's no way around it.

1828
01:31:16,760 --> 01:31:17,239
Speaker 5: I don't think.

1829
01:31:17,560 --> 01:31:17,640
Speaker 1: So.

1830
01:31:18,439 --> 01:31:19,479
Speaker 5: There's a strange scene in the.

1831
01:31:19,520 --> 01:31:22,199
Speaker 8: Gospels where Christ tells his followers that unless he's lifted

1832
01:31:22,279 --> 01:31:24,560
up like the bronze serpent, and there can be no

1833
01:31:24,600 --> 01:31:27,079
hope for the redemption of mankind unless he's lifted up

1834
01:31:27,079 --> 01:31:29,279
like the bronze serpent in the desert. Okay, this is

1835
01:31:29,279 --> 01:31:32,000
a very strange thing for someone to say. So you

1836
01:31:32,079 --> 01:31:34,039
need to know what the story of the bronze serpent

1837
01:31:34,079 --> 01:31:35,840
in the desert was and what it signifies.

1838
01:31:35,880 --> 01:31:37,520
Speaker 5: And I think we can understand it psychologically.

1839
01:31:37,560 --> 01:31:40,920
Speaker 8: I really do believe this, and so and the concordance

1840
01:31:41,319 --> 01:31:43,760
of that story, which was generated in Lenny of before

1841
01:31:43,760 --> 01:31:46,359
with christ utterance is something I just cannot imagine how

1842
01:31:46,399 --> 01:31:49,439
anyone put those two things together, especially given the lack

1843
01:31:49,439 --> 01:31:52,119
of explicit understanding about the relationship. So let me detail it. So,

1844
01:31:52,159 --> 01:31:54,439
there's a scene in Exodus in the Exodus story where

1845
01:31:54,439 --> 01:31:58,119
the Israelites are doing their usual fractious foolishness and whining

1846
01:31:58,159 --> 01:32:00,000
about the fact that they're lost, and bemoaning the law

1847
01:32:00,159 --> 01:32:02,239
of their privileges under the Pharaoh, and complaining about the

1848
01:32:02,279 --> 01:32:06,000
power dynamics of their leadership, and just generally being followers

1849
01:32:06,000 --> 01:32:09,640
of Cain, let's say, and God, the cruel God that

1850
01:32:09,680 --> 01:32:13,159
you refer to, decides to send among his suffering subjects

1851
01:32:13,199 --> 01:32:15,920
poisonous snakes to bite them, which seems a little over

1852
01:32:15,960 --> 01:32:18,079
the pap you might say. But in response to that,

1853
01:32:18,119 --> 01:32:20,439
I would say, there's no situation so terrible that some

1854
01:32:20,600 --> 01:32:22,560
damn fool can't make it infinitely worse.

1855
01:32:22,840 --> 01:32:24,479
Speaker 5: And so that's what happens to the Israelites.

1856
01:32:24,760 --> 01:32:27,479
Speaker 8: So they're being bitten by these poisonous snakes, and the

1857
01:32:27,560 --> 01:32:29,680
leaders of the people who've wandered from God go to

1858
01:32:29,720 --> 01:32:31,159
Moses and they say, look, we know you've got a

1859
01:32:31,159 --> 01:32:33,760
pipeline to God, and you know there's a lot of snakes,

1860
01:32:33,800 --> 01:32:35,159
and they're doing a lot of biting, and maybe you

1861
01:32:35,199 --> 01:32:38,239
could just ask him to, you know, call off the serpents.

1862
01:32:38,479 --> 01:32:40,560
And so Moses, who's not very happy with the Israelites,

1863
01:32:40,600 --> 01:32:42,880
either decides that he'll go talk to God. And God

1864
01:32:42,920 --> 01:32:46,119
says something very strange. He doesn't say, to hell with

1865
01:32:46,159 --> 01:32:48,199
the Israelites. More snakes is what they need. And he

1866
01:32:48,199 --> 01:32:50,039
doesn't say, well, I produce the snakes so I'll get

1867
01:32:50,079 --> 01:32:53,560
rid of them. He says something very very peculiar. He says,

1868
01:32:54,079 --> 01:32:56,159
have the Israelites gathered together all their bronze and make

1869
01:32:56,199 --> 01:32:58,520
a giant snake and put a serpent on it, a

1870
01:32:58,520 --> 01:33:00,640
bronze serpent, which is the symbol of heeling. By the way,

1871
01:33:00,640 --> 01:33:03,199
that even the Greeks use that symbol of Asclepias. It's

1872
01:33:03,239 --> 01:33:05,800
a very old symbol, very widespread, I'm still used by

1873
01:33:05,840 --> 01:33:08,319
physicians today. And then he says, put it up where

1874
01:33:08,319 --> 01:33:10,000
the Israelites can see it, and if they go look

1875
01:33:10,039 --> 01:33:14,439
at it, then the serpent's poison won't harm them. And

1876
01:33:14,479 --> 01:33:16,800
I read that and I thought, that's exactly what psychotherapists

1877
01:33:16,840 --> 01:33:20,039
discovered as they all converged in the twentieth century on

1878
01:33:20,079 --> 01:33:23,760
the utility of exposure therapy as curative. And that's the pharmicon.

1879
01:33:23,960 --> 01:33:26,319
A little of the poison that hurts you cures you.

1880
01:33:26,359 --> 01:33:28,720
It's the same principle that's used for vaccines, by the way.

1881
01:33:29,079 --> 01:33:31,439
So what we saw in psychotherapy is that if you

1882
01:33:31,520 --> 01:33:34,720
get people to voluntarily confront the things that are poisoning them,

1883
01:33:34,720 --> 01:33:37,079
so to speak, that hurt their life, that frighten them,

1884
01:33:37,159 --> 01:33:40,840
and discuss them, they become braver and more well adapted.

1885
01:33:41,079 --> 01:33:43,079
It isn't that they become less afraid, because that's been

1886
01:33:43,159 --> 01:33:44,079
very carefully tested.

1887
01:33:44,359 --> 01:33:45,479
Speaker 5: It's that they.

1888
01:33:45,359 --> 01:33:48,119
Speaker 8: Learn by watching themselves expose themselves to the things that

1889
01:33:48,159 --> 01:33:50,239
they once fleed from, that there's more to them than

1890
01:33:50,279 --> 01:33:53,399
they think, and that that generalizes across situations. And it's

1891
01:33:53,439 --> 01:33:56,560
the same mechanism that underlies learning as such, because children,

1892
01:33:56,560 --> 01:33:59,399
when they learn, put themselves on the edge of ragged disaster,

1893
01:33:59,680 --> 01:34:01,760
and that where they advance. And so what God tells

1894
01:34:01,760 --> 01:34:07,000
the Israelites essentially in this dramatic endeavor is that it's

1895
01:34:07,039 --> 01:34:08,960
better for them to face the terrors that confront them

1896
01:34:08,960 --> 01:34:11,319
than to than to be shielded from the terrors or

1897
01:34:11,319 --> 01:34:13,039
for them to hide from them. That they'll be better

1898
01:34:13,079 --> 01:34:14,880
people if they face what's right in front of them,

1899
01:34:14,880 --> 01:34:17,680
even if it's poisonous. And so it's like, okay, that's

1900
01:34:17,680 --> 01:34:20,159
pretty damn interesting and quite remarkable. And then that symbol

1901
01:34:20,239 --> 01:34:22,600
is used, for example, by the Greeks to symbolize medicine

1902
01:34:22,600 --> 01:34:25,479
as such. But then there's this additional weird twist which

1903
01:34:25,520 --> 01:34:28,920
is Christ identifies with that bronze serpent. You think, okay,

1904
01:34:28,920 --> 01:34:30,720
that's a very peculiar thing for anyone to do. What

1905
01:34:30,800 --> 01:34:33,319
is exactly what exactly does that mean? Well, so then

1906
01:34:33,319 --> 01:34:36,439
you might say, well, what's the most poisonous thing that

1907
01:34:36,479 --> 01:34:41,039
you could possibly face? You if you dramatize the idea

1908
01:34:41,039 --> 01:34:44,000
of poison itself, if you wanted people to face what

1909
01:34:44,159 --> 01:34:46,279
was worse so that they could become strongest. And the

1910
01:34:46,319 --> 01:34:49,920
answer to that is the most unjust, possible, painful death

1911
01:34:50,239 --> 01:34:53,479
and the ultimate confrontation with malevolence. And that's what's dramatized

1912
01:34:53,479 --> 01:34:55,880
in the Passion story. Now does that redeem everyone?

1913
01:34:56,399 --> 01:34:58,039
Speaker 4: Maybe? Maybe?

1914
01:34:58,239 --> 01:35:00,920
Speaker 8: Maybe The idea is that if we we're courageous enough

1915
01:35:00,920 --> 01:35:03,680
to look death in the face unflinchingly, and if we

1916
01:35:03,760 --> 01:35:06,079
spent our time putting our finger on the source of

1917
01:35:06,119 --> 01:35:09,600
evil itself, it would revital us, revitalize ourselves to a

1918
01:35:09,600 --> 01:35:12,239
degree that would be unimaginable. Now, as a biologist, you

1919
01:35:12,279 --> 01:35:14,399
know you can think about this too, because I don't

1920
01:35:14,399 --> 01:35:16,359
remember the philosopher said it. I think it was white handed,

1921
01:35:16,359 --> 01:35:18,279
but that might be wrong. We let our ideas die

1922
01:35:18,279 --> 01:35:20,840
instead of us, right, So human beings have evolved so

1923
01:35:20,880 --> 01:35:23,319
that we can undergo these deaths of our own ideas

1924
01:35:23,359 --> 01:35:26,720
and the rejuvenation that emerges in consequence of that. That

1925
01:35:26,800 --> 01:35:31,239
seems to be something like evolution towards what towards the

1926
01:35:31,960 --> 01:35:35,720
process of sacrificial logos as the thing that redeems human beings,

1927
01:35:35,960 --> 01:35:38,720
and that makes us biologically unique too, because we can

1928
01:35:38,760 --> 01:35:42,039
die in ideation and imagination instead of dying in actuality.

1929
01:35:42,239 --> 01:35:45,359
Speaker 5: Does that fundamentally redeem us? Does that deliver us from

1930
01:35:45,359 --> 01:35:49,840
death and evil? Maybe? Like the job isn't done obviously, Grinch.

1931
01:35:49,840 --> 01:35:52,119
Speaker 9: Of the story that we've just heard, the Old Testament

1932
01:35:52,119 --> 01:35:57,239
bronze serpent, it's rhyming with the New Testament Christ depicting himself?

1933
01:35:57,319 --> 01:35:57,920
Speaker 6: Is that bron serpent?

1934
01:35:57,960 --> 01:36:00,399
Speaker 9: I think from Jordan, if I may as rich suggest

1935
01:36:01,880 --> 01:36:03,560
from what I've heard you say before on the same story,

1936
01:36:03,600 --> 01:36:08,520
there's something about that harmony between that New Testament Jesus

1937
01:36:08,560 --> 01:36:10,760
and that Old Testament story, which is so profound and

1938
01:36:10,800 --> 01:36:13,640
so impressive that it's difficult to imagine it having sort

1939
01:36:13,640 --> 01:36:14,920
of naive human authorship.

1940
01:36:15,359 --> 01:36:17,560
Speaker 6: What do you make of that story and of that assertion, Well,

1941
01:36:17,680 --> 01:36:21,199
it doesn't impress me. I mean, I don't understand why

1942
01:36:21,199 --> 01:36:23,239
you would say that has I don't think jo actually

1943
01:36:23,319 --> 01:36:27,239
has said it had a divine inspiration. Maybe it did not.

1944
01:36:27,199 --> 01:36:29,279
Speaker 9: Divine inspiration necessarily, but more than just as I say,

1945
01:36:29,359 --> 01:36:31,239
naive human authorship, not like someone just sat down.

1946
01:36:31,119 --> 01:36:33,640
Speaker 8: And rope, it's every minimum, it's a it's a staggeringly

1947
01:36:33,680 --> 01:36:38,239
brilliant literary move, especially given the fact that that relationship

1948
01:36:38,239 --> 01:36:39,800
hasn't been explicated before.

1949
01:36:40,439 --> 01:36:42,079
Speaker 9: Do you think, for example, if you were looking in

1950
01:36:42,119 --> 01:36:44,359
scripture for something which would identify this as a as

1951
01:36:44,359 --> 01:36:45,960
a God given text, maybe.

1952
01:36:45,720 --> 01:36:49,840
Speaker 2: You Okay, so on this one here, Jay, I mean,

1953
01:36:50,039 --> 01:36:52,279
how do you look at jond and Peterson's interpretation of

1954
01:36:52,319 --> 01:36:54,439
these stories, And obviously he's got his own sort of

1955
01:36:54,439 --> 01:36:57,720
perspective on it, coming from the clinical psychologists, behavioral therapist

1956
01:36:58,000 --> 01:36:58,720
sort of background.

1957
01:36:58,760 --> 01:36:59,840
Speaker 4: I find them very interesting.

1958
01:37:00,159 --> 01:37:02,159
Speaker 2: Found that some of them have actually helped in my

1959
01:37:02,640 --> 01:37:04,680
own life even as well, to help me make sense

1960
01:37:04,720 --> 01:37:06,880
of things. And the way that he interprets sort of

1961
01:37:06,920 --> 01:37:10,760
like the Pinocchio stories and the Harry the Potter, Harry Potter,

1962
01:37:10,800 --> 01:37:13,399
Harry the Potter, Harry Potter and all these different archetypes

1963
01:37:13,439 --> 01:37:16,399
and how they relate to these biblical stories really interesting.

1964
01:37:16,439 --> 01:37:19,079
But Dawkins went full Shania Twain there and just doesn't

1965
01:37:19,079 --> 01:37:19,840
impress him much.

1966
01:37:21,800 --> 01:37:23,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that, you know, it goes back to

1967
01:37:23,399 --> 01:37:25,520
what I was talking about, the different the fourth senses

1968
01:37:25,560 --> 01:37:29,720
of scripture in the traditional interpretation, both Catholic and orthodox

1969
01:37:29,760 --> 01:37:32,920
of how you approach the texts. And one of those layers,

1970
01:37:32,920 --> 01:37:35,119
as I mentioned, is the moral layer. That's usually what

1971
01:37:35,680 --> 01:37:37,840
Peterson is looking for to try to find kind of

1972
01:37:39,840 --> 01:37:44,560
a practical application to individual lives in these various stories.

1973
01:37:44,880 --> 01:37:47,039
But that's not the only layer or level. There's also

1974
01:37:47,039 --> 01:37:50,399
the typological layer, which they are hinting on. It's gonna

1975
01:37:50,399 --> 01:37:52,920
be hitting on here with the type of the bronze

1976
01:37:52,960 --> 01:37:55,199
serpent and the story in numbers and how it's fulfilled

1977
01:37:55,199 --> 01:37:58,520
in John three with what Jesus explains to Nicodemus about

1978
01:37:58,520 --> 01:38:00,319
how he'll be lifted up on the cross, that he

1979
01:38:00,399 --> 01:38:03,560
will be the real bronze serpent for the entire world.

1980
01:38:04,000 --> 01:38:07,119
This is supposed to be a typological correspondence fulfilled in

1981
01:38:07,159 --> 01:38:09,359
the life of Christ. And I don't disagree with Jordan

1982
01:38:09,439 --> 01:38:14,199
Peterson's kind of psychological approach and how that might have

1983
01:38:15,920 --> 01:38:19,119
something to say in the domain of psychology, But in

1984
01:38:19,199 --> 01:38:23,159
terms of theology, it's all about the resurrection once again,

1985
01:38:23,239 --> 01:38:27,760
it's about Christ using the thing that was what brought

1986
01:38:27,880 --> 01:38:30,720
death into the world, the serpent, which we believe is

1987
01:38:30,760 --> 01:38:33,239
an angel. It's not just a snake, it's a fallen

1988
01:38:33,279 --> 01:38:37,399
angelic being that tempted Adam and Eve to disobey. That

1989
01:38:37,399 --> 01:38:40,840
brings about death in terms of human nature being now

1990
01:38:40,880 --> 01:38:45,319
subject to decay, composition, mortality, et cetera. And so the

1991
01:38:45,319 --> 01:38:47,520
whole point of the story in the Gospel of John

1992
01:38:47,680 --> 01:38:51,039
when it's referenced by Jesus, is that he's using the

1993
01:38:51,079 --> 01:38:55,880
thing that brought decay and death, the serpent, to reverse that.

1994
01:38:56,439 --> 01:38:59,520
So now death brings life. Now the serpent is the

1995
01:38:59,760 --> 01:39:04,159
means by which life comes, meaning Christ identifying as the

1996
01:39:04,199 --> 01:39:06,960
serpent the one cursed when he hangs on the cross.

1997
01:39:07,359 --> 01:39:11,760
So in the Orthodox liturgy we chant that Christ trampled

1998
01:39:11,800 --> 01:39:15,640
down death by death and upon those in the tombs,

1999
01:39:15,720 --> 01:39:20,039
bestowing life. So the cross, an instrument of death, now

2000
01:39:20,159 --> 01:39:24,039
is the instrument of life. The serpent now is the

2001
01:39:24,279 --> 01:39:27,640
means the instrument of life. So that's the meaning of

2002
01:39:27,640 --> 01:39:32,479
the story ultimately, and that passage and participation in that

2003
01:39:32,520 --> 01:39:36,279
life is also participation in the Eucharist. So that's the

2004
01:39:36,399 --> 01:39:38,319
meaning of the story and the rest of the New Testament.

2005
01:39:38,399 --> 01:39:40,800
So I'm not faulting Peterson for making it kind of

2006
01:39:40,800 --> 01:39:44,640
a psychological application. It's useful, But the very thing that

2007
01:39:44,680 --> 01:39:47,560
he needs to go further in is to get the

2008
01:39:47,600 --> 01:39:49,760
rest of the meaning, which he admits he doesn't know

2009
01:39:49,800 --> 01:39:52,960
what resurrection means, but that's the purpose of it. Healing

2010
01:39:53,479 --> 01:39:56,640
for our whole mind, body, soul, et cetera. Is in Christ,

2011
01:39:57,119 --> 01:39:59,359
not just in the psychotherapy office, but it's in the

2012
01:39:59,399 --> 01:40:00,720
christis in the or the dark church.

2013
01:40:02,039 --> 01:40:02,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, right.

2014
01:40:02,640 --> 01:40:05,239
Speaker 2: So one of the objections, and I think this is

2015
01:40:05,319 --> 01:40:07,800
kind of the objection that Alex and Dorkin's sort of

2016
01:40:07,840 --> 01:40:10,520
getting at here, is that, well, you can sort of

2017
01:40:10,560 --> 01:40:13,720
interpret these stories however you want. And I guess it's

2018
01:40:13,760 --> 01:40:15,760
sort of like this sort of postmodern take that you

2019
01:40:15,760 --> 01:40:18,199
can look at anything and it can have these million

2020
01:40:18,239 --> 01:40:21,000
different interpretations and you can interpret it any way you want.

2021
01:40:21,319 --> 01:40:22,560
Speaker 4: And if God really did.

2022
01:40:22,359 --> 01:40:25,520
Speaker 2: Want to convey these messages to us through the Bible,

2023
01:40:25,560 --> 01:40:27,760
why didn't he just write a manual instead of telling

2024
01:40:27,840 --> 01:40:29,840
this whole story about the bronze serpent. Why didn't he

2025
01:40:29,920 --> 01:40:32,159
just say it's best to look fear in the face.

2026
01:40:36,000 --> 01:40:40,760
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, he did give guidance in a manual.

2027
01:40:40,840 --> 01:40:42,920
It's called the Church. So he set up an institution

2028
01:40:43,079 --> 01:40:46,399
that helps to guide us. And for two thousand plus

2029
01:40:46,520 --> 01:40:50,119
years you have men who have at a very profound

2030
01:40:50,239 --> 01:40:58,000
level experienced and understood human pathology through confession if you

2031
01:40:58,039 --> 01:41:00,399
want to meet some of the best psychologists on the planet.

2032
01:41:00,439 --> 01:41:03,279
I'm not saying Jordan Peterson's a bad one, but I

2033
01:41:03,279 --> 01:41:06,239
mean Orthodox priests, for example, have I know, priests that

2034
01:41:06,279 --> 01:41:09,560
have been hearing people's confessions for twenty thirty years. Don't

2035
01:41:09,640 --> 01:41:11,880
I mean, even if you disagreed with it, wouldn't you

2036
01:41:11,920 --> 01:41:14,960
think that that develops a person who's pretty good at

2037
01:41:15,000 --> 01:41:20,159
psychology and human motivation, human motivations and human pathology, etc.

2038
01:41:20,560 --> 01:41:23,720
Neuroses and sins. So I think that Orthodox priests are

2039
01:41:23,720 --> 01:41:27,920
probably some of the best psychotherapists out there, and they

2040
01:41:27,960 --> 01:41:30,239
are a form of that guidance that I guess you're

2041
01:41:30,279 --> 01:41:36,479
asking for. I don't think that it's necessary that the

2042
01:41:36,520 --> 01:41:41,479
Bible will be written as some sort of like basic

2043
01:41:41,560 --> 01:41:44,159
self help guide, because it's that's not what it's intended

2044
01:41:44,239 --> 01:41:49,560
to be. It's intended to be a communally sung religious

2045
01:41:49,600 --> 01:41:54,920
text that conveys meaning on multiple layers and levels, if

2046
01:41:54,920 --> 01:41:55,760
that makes sense, right.

2047
01:41:56,520 --> 01:41:56,760
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2048
01:41:56,760 --> 01:41:58,520
Speaker 2: So one of the things that I often think about

2049
01:41:58,600 --> 01:42:00,800
is that just on if you take it down to

2050
01:42:00,840 --> 01:42:03,840
the level of a relationship with his father, with a

2051
01:42:03,880 --> 01:42:06,119
father and his son, Yeah, I think that a good

2052
01:42:06,159 --> 01:42:08,720
father wouldn't just give the son all of the answers.

2053
01:42:08,720 --> 01:42:11,000
A good father would sort of help the son in

2054
01:42:11,039 --> 01:42:13,800
the process of finding out the answers for themselves and trial,

2055
01:42:14,159 --> 01:42:18,439
trial and error and failing and winning, etc. So I

2056
01:42:18,479 --> 01:42:21,520
sort of view that relationship. If God is in fact

2057
01:42:21,560 --> 01:42:23,760
our father, then he wouldn't just sort of tell us

2058
01:42:23,840 --> 01:42:26,039
all of the answers in every little thing, but rather

2059
01:42:26,079 --> 01:42:28,319
it's a process of unveiling the answers.

2060
01:42:28,399 --> 01:42:29,199
Speaker 4: Does that make sense.

2061
01:42:29,720 --> 01:42:32,560
Speaker 1: I think that's a very perceptive statement. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean,

2062
01:42:32,640 --> 01:42:37,479
a good father wants the son to also engage and

2063
01:42:37,479 --> 01:42:39,159
figure out on his own as well. Absolutely.

2064
01:42:40,079 --> 01:42:40,279
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2065
01:42:40,600 --> 01:42:43,039
Speaker 2: So just to sort of give up, like an overview

2066
01:42:43,079 --> 01:42:46,680
of what we've seen in this debate when you're sort

2067
01:42:46,680 --> 01:42:50,399
of having these conversations with atheists, what are some of

2068
01:42:50,399 --> 01:42:52,439
the things that we can take away from what we've

2069
01:42:52,479 --> 01:42:54,359
just seen with Jordan Pearson here in terms of how

2070
01:42:54,399 --> 01:42:56,399
he can push more some of the things that he

2071
01:42:56,439 --> 01:43:00,079
did well and some of the ideas that Dawkins. One

2072
01:43:00,079 --> 01:43:02,079
of the things that Dawkins said that really can be

2073
01:43:02,159 --> 01:43:04,880
untangled if people have these conversations in their own lives.

2074
01:43:06,880 --> 01:43:11,159
Speaker 1: I think Jordan has a point here with archetypes as

2075
01:43:11,199 --> 01:43:15,560
an inroad to speak into atheists and then the Dawkins types.

2076
01:43:15,720 --> 01:43:18,760
It seems to just from practical experience of what people

2077
01:43:18,760 --> 01:43:22,319
have seen in themselves, leaving a lot of atheists have

2078
01:43:22,359 --> 01:43:26,439
left atheists in the last you know what, eight years,

2079
01:43:26,439 --> 01:43:30,520
seven years of the Peterson phenomenon precisely through I think

2080
01:43:30,560 --> 01:43:34,560
this gateway, this inroad of discussing archetypes and patterns, because

2081
01:43:34,600 --> 01:43:36,640
it's something that is kind of accessible. We may not

2082
01:43:36,880 --> 01:43:39,640
be able to have a clear definition in every case

2083
01:43:39,640 --> 01:43:41,279
as to what archetypes are, but I think we kind

2084
01:43:41,319 --> 01:43:45,000
of feel and sense and recognize they're real. There's something

2085
01:43:45,079 --> 01:43:47,680
going on here, and so it's a great doorway. I

2086
01:43:47,760 --> 01:43:50,680
think we can keep using that. We can We can

2087
01:43:50,760 --> 01:43:53,319
look to things like you know, Carl Young and Joseph

2088
01:43:53,359 --> 01:43:57,119
Campbell's books to find these you know, hero myths stories.

2089
01:43:57,159 --> 01:44:00,279
I think those are very valuable. We can also look

2090
01:44:00,359 --> 01:44:05,439
to these more rational defenses like presubpositionalism, which Peterson does

2091
01:44:05,479 --> 01:44:08,800
seem to overlap with in many ways, talking about preconditions,

2092
01:44:08,880 --> 01:44:14,119
talking about metaphysical challenges, of talking about the assumptions that

2093
01:44:14,199 --> 01:44:17,159
somebody like Dawkins has when he makes these value judgments

2094
01:44:17,159 --> 01:44:19,159
and tries to set the set up these tears of

2095
01:44:19,239 --> 01:44:21,960
religions as to which ones are better or worse. It's

2096
01:44:22,000 --> 01:44:25,199
great to continue to push on those points, those pressure

2097
01:44:25,199 --> 01:44:29,960
points about justifying where do we get these values from?

2098
01:44:30,000 --> 01:44:32,560
If everything's just matter, it doesn't seem like there is

2099
01:44:32,600 --> 01:44:34,640
any basis of values at all. It's just purely taste,

2100
01:44:34,680 --> 01:44:37,119
purely subjective, really relative. So I think they to keep

2101
01:44:37,319 --> 01:44:44,800
pushing those points are great vectors the moral issues, you know,

2102
01:44:44,840 --> 01:44:49,319
pushing on subjective ethics and so forth. Yeah, I think

2103
01:44:49,319 --> 01:44:51,520
those are the two big things that I come away

2104
01:44:51,560 --> 01:44:56,359
with in this debate is the double standards, the presubositional critique,

2105
01:44:57,720 --> 01:45:00,880
you know, the inability to justify the ethical claims and norms.

2106
01:45:00,920 --> 01:45:04,239
I think those those are those are key pressure points.

2107
01:45:04,760 --> 01:45:05,680
Speaker 4: Yep, yeah, cool.

2108
01:45:05,960 --> 01:45:07,760
Speaker 2: So what have you got coming up? J any debates

2109
01:45:07,840 --> 01:45:09,720
lined up? I know you're working on a book and

2110
01:45:09,760 --> 01:45:10,560
everything at the moment.

2111
01:45:12,239 --> 01:45:15,239
Speaker 1: You know, we always have usually multiple times a week,

2112
01:45:15,520 --> 01:45:18,159
open form debate, which allows anybody who wants to come

2113
01:45:18,159 --> 01:45:21,319
and debate me on whatever topics, usually religious, but not always.

2114
01:45:21,359 --> 01:45:24,800
Sometimes we open up to geopolitics. So there's no formal

2115
01:45:24,800 --> 01:45:27,359
debates right now scheduled with any big names or anything.

2116
01:45:27,399 --> 01:45:29,159
I think, you know, the last one was the Muslim

2117
01:45:29,159 --> 01:45:32,159
debates that we did. Those are really big, but I'm

2118
01:45:32,199 --> 01:45:35,079
always open to two stuff down the road. I am

2119
01:45:35,159 --> 01:45:37,079
trying to finish that third Ester t Our Hollywood book.

2120
01:45:37,079 --> 01:45:38,119
If you do want to get my books, you can

2121
01:45:38,119 --> 01:45:39,840
get us to our Hollywood one and two at my

2122
01:45:39,920 --> 01:45:43,119
website Jaysnelsons dot com. In the shop we got signed

2123
01:45:43,119 --> 01:45:45,880
copies there have my six hundred and sixty page book

2124
01:45:45,880 --> 01:45:49,680
on all my geopolitics and philosophy texts in that book,

2125
01:45:50,039 --> 01:45:54,239
they're all signed copies. We have an icon theology the

2126
01:45:54,439 --> 01:45:57,359
ICON Conference coming up, so actually all this talk of

2127
01:45:57,439 --> 01:46:00,880
archetypes is very relevant to will be discussing. If you

2128
01:46:00,920 --> 01:46:04,399
go to my page or my Twitter you'll see link

2129
01:46:04,439 --> 01:46:07,439
there a link to get tickets for the Icon Conference

2130
01:46:07,479 --> 01:46:09,920
coming up November eighth in Florida. I think we have

2131
01:46:09,960 --> 01:46:11,960
four speakers. It's gonna be really deep. We're gonna go

2132
01:46:11,960 --> 01:46:14,720
into the symbolism of the famous rueblo of Icon. We're

2133
01:46:14,760 --> 01:46:18,039
going to go into the symbolism of the worship service itself.

2134
01:46:19,600 --> 01:46:21,640
It's going to really be really deep. It's a full

2135
01:46:21,680 --> 01:46:26,279
day conference. It's a lot of fun, but yeah, that's

2136
01:46:26,279 --> 01:46:29,640
all I can think of that's coming up. As for

2137
01:46:30,319 --> 01:46:32,600
fourth Hour, that's up in the air because things are

2138
01:46:32,640 --> 01:46:34,640
going to be auctioned next week, so we don't know

2139
01:46:34,640 --> 01:46:37,239
where that's going to go. But hopefully I can still

2140
01:46:37,279 --> 01:46:41,119
be involved in some way in that info domain.

2141
01:46:42,119 --> 01:46:45,720
Speaker 4: Yeah cool, awesome, dude. Well, great to have you today.

2142
01:46:45,840 --> 01:46:48,479
Speaker 2: Always a pleasure man. Sneak around goes as we're gonna

2143
01:46:48,520 --> 01:46:50,239
hang around. I'm gonna go see if Andrew's live, see

2144
01:46:50,279 --> 01:46:52,079
we can go crash the stream or something like that.

2145
01:46:52,119 --> 01:46:53,960
Speaker 4: But Jay, always good to have you. Man.

2146
01:46:54,000 --> 01:46:56,199
Speaker 2: All of those links are going to be down below,

2147
01:46:56,239 --> 01:46:57,840
and I'll see you soon and hopefully i'll see you

2148
01:46:57,840 --> 01:46:58,840
in Nashville, Tennessee.

2149
01:46:59,279 --> 01:47:01,600
Speaker 1: Absolutely, thank you man, appreciate it was a great chat.

2150
01:47:02,319 --> 01:47:03,000
Speaker 4: Take care bro.

2151
01:47:04,840 --> 01:47:10,560
Speaker 2: Alrighty guys, let me share my screen once again. I'm

2152
01:47:10,560 --> 01:47:12,560
gonna go see if Andrews live, see if we can

2153
01:47:12,600 --> 01:47:22,119
crash in crash his stream.

2154
01:47:22,520 --> 01:47:22,800
Speaker 10: Ah.

2155
01:47:22,840 --> 01:47:26,279
Speaker 4: He always pushes at nine pm. That sucks.

2156
01:47:26,760 --> 01:47:30,359
Speaker 2: It was four pm before, but maybe he's just pushed

2157
01:47:30,359 --> 01:47:30,720
it back.

2158
01:47:30,640 --> 01:47:32,279
Speaker 4: A little bit. So.

2159
01:47:32,319 --> 01:47:36,760
Speaker 2: I saw a lot of atheists in the comments debating everything,

2160
01:47:36,800 --> 01:47:38,880
which was very interesting to see. If you guys actually

2161
01:47:38,880 --> 01:47:41,640
do want to debate these things, then go and go

2162
01:47:41,680 --> 01:47:44,359
and go to go to Jay's Twitter or go to

2163
01:47:44,399 --> 01:47:47,199
his Instagram or his YouTube whatever. And he's always inviting

2164
01:47:47,239 --> 01:47:49,119
people into Twitter spaces. So if you guys want to

2165
01:47:49,399 --> 01:47:51,600
do the debates, and if you guys think that you've

2166
01:47:51,640 --> 01:47:54,159
had some objections to what he said, then by all means,

2167
01:47:54,199 --> 01:47:58,119
go and do that. What's on for the week, We've

2168
01:47:58,119 --> 01:48:01,680
got the election stream happening that's going to be on Monday.

2169
01:48:01,920 --> 01:48:03,600
We're going to have a pre election stream. I've got

2170
01:48:03,600 --> 01:48:05,319
a few people coming on. We've got JP, the young

2171
01:48:05,319 --> 01:48:08,000
guy who we interview who were covered the other day

2172
01:48:08,000 --> 01:48:11,720
that absolutely destroyed chenk you and we'll have a few more.

2173
01:48:12,039 --> 01:48:14,600
But one more super chatty up. Sorry I didn't get

2174
01:48:14,640 --> 01:48:17,720
to this before. Minnie says, hey, Jy, how could one

2175
01:48:17,760 --> 01:48:20,760
implement Bible studies, Church history and Christian history books in

2176
01:48:20,800 --> 01:48:22,920
one's day to day life. I actually asked him this

2177
01:48:23,000 --> 01:48:26,319
towards the end of our podcast together, So Reality Based Podcast.

2178
01:48:26,359 --> 01:48:29,760
This will also be uploaded to the Reality Based podcast

2179
01:48:30,000 --> 01:48:32,479
as well. Does it'll be uploaded in audio format.

2180
01:48:33,079 --> 01:48:34,439
Speaker 4: But yeah, lot's going on this week.

2181
01:48:34,439 --> 01:48:36,960
Speaker 2: We're gonna be covering the election a little bit more,

2182
01:48:36,960 --> 01:48:38,960
and then Monday We've got that live stream as well,

2183
01:48:39,239 --> 01:48:40,560
so I.

2184
01:48:40,600 --> 01:48:44,760
Speaker 4: Hope everybody enjoyed the stream. Apparently Rob Nor's life.

2185
01:48:44,760 --> 01:48:48,039
Speaker 2: I just said that, need to get Rob on the

2186
01:48:48,119 --> 01:48:49,600
channel at some point.

2187
01:48:54,199 --> 01:48:55,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, if you guys want some quality content.

2188
01:48:57,359 --> 01:48:59,680
Speaker 11: Of course, I'm sure someone like will be like should

2189
01:48:59,680 --> 01:49:01,319
we The law says that you're not allowed to give

2190
01:49:01,359 --> 01:49:03,319
something of value to people to encourage them to vote,

2191
01:49:03,359 --> 01:49:05,000
and we all know Rob people would pay money to

2192
01:49:05,000 --> 01:49:07,960
hear your humorous stories, so actually you're probably breaking the law,

2193
01:49:08,039 --> 01:49:08,680
driving people blug.

2194
01:49:08,920 --> 01:49:10,960
Speaker 3: He's spent all day yesterday claiming that.

2195
01:49:11,520 --> 01:49:12,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, go check out Rob Nor.

2196
01:49:12,880 --> 01:49:14,920
Speaker 2: Guys, just after this if you want to watch some

2197
01:49:15,039 --> 01:49:16,840
quality content, I actually want to show you guys something

2198
01:49:16,880 --> 01:49:22,319
really really funny that happened that you guys might not

2199
01:49:22,359 --> 01:49:22,800
have seen.

2200
01:49:23,159 --> 01:49:27,920
Speaker 4: This was hilarious. Was it this one? Eight days ago? Yeah?

2201
01:49:28,319 --> 01:49:31,520
Speaker 2: I was absolutely pissing myself laughing. They did a debate

2202
01:49:31,600 --> 01:49:36,720
on Modern Day Debate about Trump and Harris, and this

2203
01:49:36,840 --> 01:49:39,800
guy gets on and starts doing a slam poetry. It

2204
01:49:39,840 --> 01:49:41,560
was the most bizarre thing I think I've ever seen

2205
01:49:41,600 --> 01:49:44,840
in my life. You guys got to see this. So

2206
01:49:44,840 --> 01:49:46,680
they all did their opening statements and then this guy

2207
01:49:46,720 --> 01:49:47,359
comes out with this.

2208
01:49:49,359 --> 01:49:49,720
Speaker 6: Thank you.

2209
01:49:51,199 --> 01:49:53,720
Speaker 12: All right, thank you so much, Glassy and Neurotic for

2210
01:49:53,760 --> 01:49:56,119
your opening statement. Will head it over to a first amender.

2211
01:49:56,399 --> 01:49:58,279
So just looking at the time right quick, you'll have

2212
01:49:58,319 --> 01:50:00,319
eight and a half minutes on the floor. So much

2213
01:50:00,319 --> 01:50:02,239
for being here, Thank you very much.

2214
01:50:02,920 --> 01:50:05,359
Speaker 13: We walk head first into flames, and I do not

2215
01:50:05,520 --> 01:50:09,239
see the people engulfed bother themselves with screaming. They simply

2216
01:50:09,279 --> 01:50:10,399
smile with a red hat on.

2217
01:50:10,479 --> 01:50:11,720
Speaker 4: This is your average Harris support.

2218
01:50:12,000 --> 01:50:14,560
Speaker 13: Late do they regret their actions, and even some don't

2219
01:50:14,600 --> 01:50:17,760
even do that, as their bodies remained a charred husk

2220
01:50:17,960 --> 01:50:20,600
to be dragged away by the sycophants of an orange

2221
01:50:20,640 --> 01:50:24,039
dictator must not have been a real supporter, as alarm

2222
01:50:24,079 --> 01:50:25,520
bells echoed beyond.

2223
01:50:25,520 --> 01:50:26,680
Speaker 4: Yet it matters.

2224
01:50:26,439 --> 01:50:29,439
Speaker 13: Not for the sycophants cut their ears off years ago

2225
01:50:29,600 --> 01:50:33,800
to maintain their blind devotion to the Orange Man. There

2226
01:50:33,840 --> 01:50:37,199
I stood peering at a giant screen, faded and covered

2227
01:50:37,199 --> 01:50:40,800
in stains, audio caked with interference, as the splendor of

2228
01:50:40,800 --> 01:50:44,439
the Orange Man had faded with every broadcast. Yet I

2229
01:50:44,520 --> 01:50:46,960
remembered what he had said and what was repeated and

2230
01:50:47,000 --> 01:50:50,840
touted porches lit in his name, brethren treated as common

2231
01:50:50,880 --> 01:50:54,000
refuse to not be trusted any longer, and the sycophants

2232
01:50:54,079 --> 01:50:58,000
chided and jeered at my brothers around me. When Mexico

2233
01:50:58,079 --> 01:51:00,680
sends its people, they are not sending their best. They're

2234
01:51:00,720 --> 01:51:02,880
sending people that had lots of problems, and they're bringing

2235
01:51:02,920 --> 01:51:06,640
those problems with us. They're bringing drugs, they're bringing crime.

2236
01:51:07,079 --> 01:51:08,840
Speaker 4: They're not bringing their best.

2237
01:51:08,680 --> 01:51:10,720
Speaker 5: And some I assume are good people.

2238
01:51:11,079 --> 01:51:14,439
Speaker 13: June sixteenth, twenty fifteen, in his campaign announcement.

2239
01:51:15,560 --> 01:51:17,239
Speaker 2: So you guys get the point. This literally went for

2240
01:51:17,279 --> 01:51:19,960
ten minutes, this whole entire thing, and then the response

2241
01:51:20,039 --> 01:51:22,760
was really funny.

2242
01:51:22,920 --> 01:51:28,039
Speaker 12: Hold on a sec, rob, you were trying to jump

2243
01:51:28,079 --> 01:51:30,680
in there, so I'll hand it on over you, absolutely.

2244
01:51:30,279 --> 01:51:32,039
Speaker 10: Josh, if you don't mind, I'd like to respond now.

2245
01:51:32,039 --> 01:51:35,720
I'll admit though, to being inspired. I thought to talk

2246
01:51:35,760 --> 01:51:38,479
about issues that affected Americans in a way such that

2247
01:51:38,520 --> 01:51:41,399
the average person could understand. But I've been inspired to

2248
01:51:41,479 --> 01:51:44,279
understand that prose is not the way to go in

2249
01:51:44,279 --> 01:51:48,079
this debate. So if I may, with some impromptu poetry

2250
01:51:48,319 --> 01:51:51,079
to respond to that great soliloquy that we just hurt.

2251
01:51:51,800 --> 01:51:55,319
And as they stood glistening skin yellowing from lack of nutrition,

2252
01:51:55,640 --> 01:51:58,359
no longer could they afford groceries, no longer could they

2253
01:51:58,359 --> 01:51:59,560
recognize their communities.

2254
01:52:00,119 --> 01:52:01,479
Speaker 5: Crime ran rampant as.

2255
01:52:01,359 --> 01:52:04,079
Speaker 10: They were locked down as non essential as their first

2256
01:52:04,079 --> 01:52:07,119
amendment was stripped from within. They looked to the heavens,

2257
01:52:07,319 --> 01:52:09,920
where or where could they find sustenance? And then they

2258
01:52:09,960 --> 01:52:12,520
saw the answer. They could eat the anger at the

2259
01:52:12,560 --> 01:52:16,439
mean tweets. They could go to the argument of twenty sixteen. Therefore,

2260
01:52:16,479 --> 01:52:22,279
sustenance is understanding that condemning a man for January since

2261
01:52:22,319 --> 01:52:24,600
would be their food they go. And therefore they did

2262
01:52:24,640 --> 01:52:27,039
cut off their ears, not for lack of hearing, but

2263
01:52:27,079 --> 01:52:29,760
because they must eat something, and ears were better than

2264
01:52:29,800 --> 01:52:32,920
nothing being offered. That was quite literally one of the

2265
01:52:32,960 --> 01:52:38,479
most insane, hilarious and absolutely speak absolutely asinine speeches that

2266
01:52:38,640 --> 01:52:40,880
I think should be clipped and will be clipped to

2267
01:52:40,960 --> 01:52:46,000
represent exactly what this election represents. Discussions about mean tweets

2268
01:52:46,000 --> 01:52:47,840
and angry things that were said going as far as

2269
01:52:47,840 --> 01:52:52,640
twenty sixteen, relitigating January sixth, once more completely doing what

2270
01:52:52,680 --> 01:52:55,079
I called out would be done in our opening statements,

2271
01:52:55,119 --> 01:52:57,319
as did Josh, that you would focus on the character

2272
01:52:57,319 --> 01:52:59,119
of Donald Trump, that you would say that he is

2273
01:52:59,159 --> 01:53:02,079
this unique threat and you would completely ignore all substance

2274
01:53:02,319 --> 01:53:04,520
as to how his policies were better for even the

2275
01:53:04,560 --> 01:53:07,600
groups that you claim are marginalized. You said nothing at all,

2276
01:53:07,680 --> 01:53:10,039
either of you about the economy. You said nothing about

2277
01:53:10,079 --> 01:53:11,319
foreign policy.

2278
01:53:11,920 --> 01:53:15,319
Speaker 2: So I just thought that that was so unbelievably hilarious.

2279
01:53:15,399 --> 01:53:18,600
I mean, Bro literally did an orange Man Bad poem.

2280
01:53:19,039 --> 01:53:24,800
You know that the sort of Harris delusion has come

2281
01:53:24,880 --> 01:53:28,279
full arc when you get a literal orange Man bad poem.

2282
01:53:28,840 --> 01:53:30,399
Speaker 4: It was about to cry. I'm serious.

2283
01:53:30,479 --> 01:53:32,319
Speaker 2: Look at his face now listen, Queen's in on this,

2284
01:53:32,520 --> 01:53:34,880
can yeah see that? Look at that face?

2285
01:53:36,000 --> 01:53:41,880
Speaker 4: Look at that face. Oh dear, what.

2286
01:53:41,920 --> 01:53:46,479
Speaker 2: Have we just witnessed? Anyways, like I said, guys, we're

2287
01:53:46,479 --> 01:53:50,359
going to sign out, but good good stream go to

2288
01:53:50,439 --> 01:53:52,760
Rob Noa. He's live if you guys want to catch

2289
01:53:52,760 --> 01:53:55,399
some more great content. He's been doing some great debates recently.

2290
01:53:56,279 --> 01:53:56,960
Speaker 4: Rob Now.

2291
01:53:59,279 --> 01:54:01,359
Speaker 6: He's currently Okay.

2292
01:54:01,399 --> 01:54:04,520
Speaker 4: I'm not all right, So guys, that's it from me.

2293
01:54:05,239 --> 01:54:06,680
Speaker 2: Let me know what you thought in the comments. I

2294
01:54:06,720 --> 01:54:09,720
forget to like the video. Guys, fourteen hundred of you

2295
01:54:09,760 --> 01:54:13,399
nearly still in this live there was I think sixteen

2296
01:54:13,479 --> 01:54:14,840
or seventeen hundred at its peak.

2297
01:54:15,079 --> 01:54:16,359
Speaker 4: Just smash that like button.

2298
01:54:16,600 --> 01:54:18,760
Speaker 2: Subscribe to the channel if you haven't already, and let

2299
01:54:18,760 --> 01:54:20,760
me know in the comments, because I do read this stuff. Guys,

2300
01:54:21,119 --> 01:54:22,760
let me know in the comments. What kind of streams

2301
01:54:22,800 --> 01:54:25,600
you like we do these reviews. I can do some

2302
01:54:25,720 --> 01:54:27,760
chill streams, or we just hang around and review some

2303
01:54:27,840 --> 01:54:31,439
content and just laugh at liberals. I love laughing at liberals,

2304
01:54:31,520 --> 01:54:34,920
as you guys know. We can make fun of the degenerates.

2305
01:54:35,880 --> 01:54:39,279
We can watch along with some sort of stuff the

2306
01:54:39,319 --> 01:54:44,600
debates obviously good stuff as well elections streams. I might

2307
01:54:44,640 --> 01:54:49,039
do some TikTok invasions. Guys, when Andrew goes to Los Angeles,

2308
01:54:49,039 --> 01:54:51,359
when he goes to California to go on the Whatever podcast,

2309
01:54:51,439 --> 01:54:53,520
he obviously leaves the fort for a few weeks, so

2310
01:54:53,560 --> 01:54:56,600
somebody's got to hold it down with the TikTok invasions.

2311
01:54:57,199 --> 01:54:59,399
We had some of the best TikTok invasions you've ever

2312
01:54:59,439 --> 01:55:02,159
seen last few weeks, where he would get in there

2313
01:55:02,199 --> 01:55:04,399
and he would start roasting these liberals and then they'd

2314
01:55:04,439 --> 01:55:06,640
kick him out, and then I'd get straight in after him,

2315
01:55:06,640 --> 01:55:08,600
and then I'd do the same thing, and then one

2316
01:55:08,720 --> 01:55:11,680
after the other, the Crucible crew just comes in and

2317
01:55:11,840 --> 01:55:14,039
just trolls these people and it's.

2318
01:55:15,800 --> 01:55:16,840
Speaker 4: Utterly hilarious.

2319
01:55:17,000 --> 01:55:21,840
Speaker 2: So jump in a crucible TikTok invasion. Turn those notifications

2320
01:55:21,840 --> 01:55:24,640
on because you guys can get involved and help just

2321
01:55:24,680 --> 01:55:29,920
troll these troll these liberals. It's unbelievable. They get so mad.

2322
01:55:30,960 --> 01:55:33,079
So yeah, let me know what you guys want to see.

2323
01:55:33,279 --> 01:55:35,680
In the comments below, Andrew said he'd teach me how

2324
01:55:35,680 --> 01:55:38,439
to do some TikTok invasions if you guys would like

2325
01:55:38,439 --> 01:55:40,319
to see that. Someone's got to do it when he's away.

2326
01:55:40,479 --> 01:55:44,239
So appreciate you all, much love to you all, and

2327
01:55:44,319 --> 01:55:46,079
with that, I'm going to sign out