WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.200 --> 00:00:10.599 You see, something's going to happen. What's going to happen? 2 00:00:15.480 --> 00:00:17.120 What a. 3 00:00:24.440 --> 00:00:28.000 Welcome to the cults rejects. This episode, I got a 4 00:00:28.039 --> 00:00:30.359 very special guest, very excited to have her on. She 5 00:00:30.399 --> 00:00:33.039 does own a shop near my house, so I'm happy 6 00:00:33.039 --> 00:00:35.479 to get somebody on that's local and that's actually into 7 00:00:35.520 --> 00:00:38.520 the community. But before we introduce her, we will be 8 00:00:38.520 --> 00:00:40.000 introducing the other rejects on the show. 9 00:00:40.520 --> 00:00:42.799 We got the Loon Judith with us today. What is 10 00:00:42.840 --> 00:00:44.880 going on? How are you hey? 11 00:00:45.159 --> 00:00:49.200 I'm alone? You can catch me on YouTube as the Loon. 12 00:00:49.359 --> 00:00:53.399 I just dropped the most recent buddy check and you 13 00:00:53.439 --> 00:00:54.960 can catch me also on Twitter. 14 00:00:55.600 --> 00:00:58.000 Awesome. Thank you very much for joining. I appreciate it. 15 00:00:58.600 --> 00:01:01.159 And we got Arrows Up. What is going on? Errows? 16 00:01:01.159 --> 00:01:03.840 How wire you doing well? 17 00:01:03.880 --> 00:01:08.400 Happy to be here, Happy to talk with Haron. We 18 00:01:08.439 --> 00:01:13.120 always have such fantastic guests, so it's always a good time, 19 00:01:13.239 --> 00:01:16.760 always exciting. You can find me on YouTube at Arrows Up, 20 00:01:16.920 --> 00:01:20.319 and you can find me on Twitter at arrows to Ethos. 21 00:01:20.719 --> 00:01:26.879 I post a lot of Platonist and metaphysics and astrology, 22 00:01:27.120 --> 00:01:30.760 so if you're interested in any of those topics check 23 00:01:30.799 --> 00:01:31.159 me out. 24 00:01:32.280 --> 00:01:34.319 Awesome. Thank you so much. I was always appreciate what 25 00:01:34.400 --> 00:01:35.719 you need to make the show and. 26 00:01:35.760 --> 00:01:39.040 Last minute least my boy, Headless Giant, how are you so? 27 00:01:39.120 --> 00:01:39.640 How you doing? 28 00:01:39.719 --> 00:01:41.799 You can find me at the Headless Giant on YouTube 29 00:01:41.920 --> 00:01:46.040 and on x and on Instagram as well, so check 30 00:01:46.079 --> 00:01:50.200 those out. And I have shows pretty much every day, 31 00:01:51.120 --> 00:01:53.280 at least it has been so far, so you can 32 00:01:53.359 --> 00:01:57.120 check out my Alchemy Mondays with Arrows and my seven 33 00:01:57.200 --> 00:02:01.840 seven seven Tuesdays with Nick. And I do another show 34 00:02:01.920 --> 00:02:06.599 called The Trialogues with Ethan Indigo and Ricardo on Sundays, 35 00:02:06.760 --> 00:02:09.400 so check those out ten thirty on Sunday, seven thirty 36 00:02:09.599 --> 00:02:10.800 on the rest of the time. 37 00:02:10.879 --> 00:02:13.360 So thank you, thank you very much, sir. 38 00:02:14.319 --> 00:02:18.199 Yes, today we have with us Michelle. No, sorry, I 39 00:02:18.240 --> 00:02:22.759 forgot to herod Michelle. Sorry and again I was telling 40 00:02:22.759 --> 00:02:26.759 people prior to the show and here now, yeah I was. 41 00:02:26.800 --> 00:02:28.439 There was a couple of metaphysics, so I don't know 42 00:02:28.439 --> 00:02:30.120 how you want to call them, which shops which stores 43 00:02:30.439 --> 00:02:32.439 out up by me and I stopped and all of 44 00:02:32.520 --> 00:02:34.159 them wanted to drop off some stickers and kind of 45 00:02:34.159 --> 00:02:36.280 introduce myself. But for some reason when I got when 46 00:02:36.319 --> 00:02:37.879 I walked in there, I had the feeling like I 47 00:02:37.879 --> 00:02:39.560 don't know. I wanted to ask the lady on. I 48 00:02:39.599 --> 00:02:41.360 just feel like she had something to say. And then 49 00:02:41.400 --> 00:02:43.039 she mentioned that she had books and she even had 50 00:02:43.080 --> 00:02:44.840 them with a Welle, so I was like, oh, okay, 51 00:02:45.439 --> 00:02:49.840 so and I saw Elemental Witchcraft and that was something 52 00:02:49.879 --> 00:02:52.280 that I was looking to cover on the show kind of. 53 00:02:52.319 --> 00:02:54.000 I was going to go through a book and try 54 00:02:54.039 --> 00:02:55.240 to cover it myself, and it was gonna be a 55 00:02:55.280 --> 00:02:57.400 lot of work. So when she mentioned that, I was like, oh, perfect, 56 00:02:57.479 --> 00:02:59.039 We'll just get her on to talk about. 57 00:02:58.800 --> 00:03:01.000 It, save me up a lot of trouble in time. 58 00:03:01.520 --> 00:03:03.280 So I think it worked out well. 59 00:03:03.919 --> 00:03:05.960 She does have a shop to so Joanna, and she 60 00:03:06.120 --> 00:03:08.520 does have a book that we're going to be talking about, 61 00:03:08.560 --> 00:03:12.240 which is Elemental Witchcraft, A Guide to living a Magical 62 00:03:12.280 --> 00:03:15.439 Life through the Elements. And yes that is again that's 63 00:03:15.479 --> 00:03:19.599 out on Llewellyn recently. I just contacted them, so I'm hoping, 64 00:03:19.840 --> 00:03:21.360 hoping that they will send me authors because I was 65 00:03:21.479 --> 00:03:23.560 already have any tradition than Weiser sending me. 66 00:03:23.599 --> 00:03:25.719 So I'm going full well and let's see what happens. 67 00:03:26.159 --> 00:03:29.680 But please, Michelle, let everybody know where they can find 68 00:03:29.680 --> 00:03:31.520 your stuff if you want to advertise the store. Anything 69 00:03:31.560 --> 00:03:33.199 you would like to plug, please let people know. 70 00:03:34.039 --> 00:03:39.039 Okay, well, thanks for having me on again. In this world, 71 00:03:39.280 --> 00:03:42.840 I move about as Haron Michelle. You can call me 72 00:03:43.240 --> 00:03:49.520 either or both, and I do publish through Llewellyn. I've 73 00:03:49.520 --> 00:03:51.960 got one book out in a three book series, the 74 00:03:52.000 --> 00:03:55.400 Pinnacle Path series is what I call it. It was 75 00:03:55.439 --> 00:03:58.280 pitched as a three book series, but who knows. You 76 00:03:58.319 --> 00:04:00.840 know the word pinnacles, and it'll probably be in the end. 77 00:04:00.840 --> 00:04:04.840 I've got lots to say. I also have been blogging 78 00:04:04.879 --> 00:04:08.240 on the Pathios Pagan channel since twenty fifteen as Witch 79 00:04:08.280 --> 00:04:12.319 on Fire, and I now do a sub stack under 80 00:04:12.360 --> 00:04:16.079 heron Michelle and all the other places. You know, YouTube, 81 00:04:16.079 --> 00:04:20.800 which I don't do very much with anymore, but you 82 00:04:20.800 --> 00:04:24.480 know all the social media places. If you're looking for me, 83 00:04:24.519 --> 00:04:27.759 I'm under heron Michelle and also I teach my book 84 00:04:28.040 --> 00:04:33.920 in a eighteen month long course on Harronmichelle dot com, 85 00:04:34.040 --> 00:04:37.560 which has got all the information about my work. And 86 00:04:37.759 --> 00:04:42.600 I do graphic art to support my occult and witchcraft 87 00:04:42.680 --> 00:04:47.680 practices and to help others to visualize and make that 88 00:04:47.759 --> 00:04:54.519 magic real in their lives. So I have art, poetry, blogs, articles, books, 89 00:04:54.600 --> 00:04:59.480 and I'm now working on pushing the second book, Lunar 90 00:04:59.519 --> 00:05:02.879 Witchcraft after the series through Llewellyn. It's been submitted, but 91 00:05:03.000 --> 00:05:06.399 it's in progress. And the third book I'm working on 92 00:05:06.560 --> 00:05:09.639 now in first draft will be Solar Witchcraft. So I'm 93 00:05:09.639 --> 00:05:14.160 basically working Middle World with the elemental witchcraft first, and 94 00:05:14.199 --> 00:05:18.519 then Underworld and Lunar Witchcraft working with the goddess forms specifically, 95 00:05:18.680 --> 00:05:21.560 and then Solar Witchcraft will be the god forms, the Sabbats, 96 00:05:21.600 --> 00:05:24.560 the seasons, et cetera, and the upper world. 97 00:05:24.800 --> 00:05:28.959 Wow. Nice, I love it sounds great. How long has 98 00:05:29.000 --> 00:05:29.800 your shop been around for? 99 00:05:31.240 --> 00:05:35.040 We are about to celebrate our seventeenth anniversary of being 100 00:05:35.120 --> 00:05:40.079 open on four to fourteen Evans Street. But we actually 101 00:05:40.160 --> 00:05:44.319 started our business as more of tent vending and whatnot 102 00:05:44.360 --> 00:05:47.600 at Pagan Prie Days and other conferences and festivals and things. 103 00:05:47.600 --> 00:05:51.240 We started a Tumnal Equinox in two thousand and eight, 104 00:05:51.560 --> 00:05:54.759 so eighteen seventeen years. 105 00:05:54.959 --> 00:05:57.959 Nice. Good for you, Good for you. Have you become 106 00:05:58.000 --> 00:05:59.399 kind of like a staple in Greenville. 107 00:05:59.439 --> 00:06:03.160 In Greenville, I guess you'd say that, I mean. 108 00:06:03.319 --> 00:06:04.959 Not knocking the other stores, but I mean you just 109 00:06:05.000 --> 00:06:07.040 when it comes to witchcraft, you're much more better off 110 00:06:07.079 --> 00:06:07.519 going to you. 111 00:06:07.480 --> 00:06:10.959 As I think, well, none of the other stores focus 112 00:06:11.040 --> 00:06:14.600 on which, yeah, I guess right, I think they. I 113 00:06:14.600 --> 00:06:16.040 think they purposely avoid that. 114 00:06:16.199 --> 00:06:18.800 So I wonder what they thought about me when I 115 00:06:18.800 --> 00:06:19.120 walked in. 116 00:06:21.759 --> 00:06:26.279 Well, I mean those, but well, my biggest competitor, the 117 00:06:26.360 --> 00:06:29.120 Crystal Shop in town, has been here since way before 118 00:06:29.160 --> 00:06:31.680 I was and I used to go, oh yeah, and 119 00:06:31.759 --> 00:06:33.879 I used to go in there and shop and ask 120 00:06:33.959 --> 00:06:37.560 for witchcraft related things to support my practice. And let's 121 00:06:37.600 --> 00:06:40.079 just say that the message was pretty clear that that 122 00:06:40.240 --> 00:06:42.800 was not we were not a community. They were interested 123 00:06:42.800 --> 00:06:48.160 in cert Wow. Really pretty specifically. 124 00:06:48.680 --> 00:06:50.639 Is that the one that looks like a house. It 125 00:06:50.680 --> 00:06:52.600 looks like a house. It doesn't even look like a business. 126 00:06:52.920 --> 00:06:55.439 Okay, they're pretty new, they're not. They're nice folks. I 127 00:06:55.480 --> 00:06:58.319 don't know them very well. But no, that's that's there 128 00:06:58.480 --> 00:07:01.000 a crystal shop. No, I'm talking about the one that's 129 00:07:01.040 --> 00:07:04.720 over in Arlingtonville. Oh okay, yeah, yeah, they're the they'd 130 00:07:04.759 --> 00:07:07.680 like to do the new age thing, but a long 131 00:07:07.800 --> 00:07:12.399 time ago they decided that they weren't interested in witchcraft, occultism, paganism. 132 00:07:12.879 --> 00:07:16.920 So I actually opened my store as a direct reaction 133 00:07:17.240 --> 00:07:18.959 to being rejected by those people. 134 00:07:19.560 --> 00:07:25.240 That's nice. Yeah, that's uh yeah. 135 00:07:25.279 --> 00:07:26.879 If I don't know how many listeners I have in 136 00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:29.199 North Carolina or anywhere near Greenville. But if you're into 137 00:07:29.240 --> 00:07:30.879 this stuff, I highly suggest to go to her store. 138 00:07:30.920 --> 00:07:31.800 It's a really nice. 139 00:07:31.600 --> 00:07:36.600 Place downtown on Evans Street, opened seven days a week now. 140 00:07:36.759 --> 00:07:38.399 And it isn't a great spot too, tell you the 141 00:07:38.399 --> 00:07:39.839 truth of you. A lot of stuff in that area, 142 00:07:40.120 --> 00:07:45.000 very nice area of Greenville. So, Michelle, when was it 143 00:07:45.040 --> 00:07:46.800 that you realize like, this is what I'm going to 144 00:07:46.839 --> 00:07:49.160 be into, Like this is my deal, witchcraft or whatever 145 00:07:49.160 --> 00:07:50.360 you call whatever you're into. 146 00:07:51.199 --> 00:07:53.199 When when did that happen? 147 00:07:54.319 --> 00:07:57.079 I think, like most folks who are into this, we 148 00:07:57.160 --> 00:08:00.839 always sort of knew, you know. I think I think 149 00:08:00.879 --> 00:08:03.399 it's an orientation. It's like you just come into the world. 150 00:08:03.519 --> 00:08:07.240 You just know things, and it takes a while maybe 151 00:08:07.399 --> 00:08:10.439 to figure out what it is that other adult human 152 00:08:10.480 --> 00:08:16.000 beings call it. But once you find out that it 153 00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:19.759 is a movement, that it is, you know, and I 154 00:08:19.759 --> 00:08:22.120 do mean occultism, I mean the people who understand that 155 00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:27.079 there is the mysterious underlayer of everything and you're aware 156 00:08:27.079 --> 00:08:29.920 of that and what you're being fed is what is reality, 157 00:08:29.959 --> 00:08:33.080 the consensus reality of culture. And I mean I was 158 00:08:33.080 --> 00:08:36.200 a little kid going nah, nah, that's not it. But 159 00:08:36.240 --> 00:08:40.639 of course I was raised in the Southern Baptist Evangelical 160 00:08:41.720 --> 00:08:46.759 Christian where you know, there was only the one right way. 161 00:08:47.000 --> 00:08:48.559 I was going to say it was that an influence 162 00:08:48.559 --> 00:08:51.159 and you kind of looking all the ways. 163 00:08:51.159 --> 00:08:54.080 Oh yeah, I mean that's how you find that's why 164 00:08:54.120 --> 00:08:56.320 you go looking for what are what else is out here? 165 00:08:56.399 --> 00:09:02.200 Because I was so depressed as a kid, I was like, man, 166 00:09:02.240 --> 00:09:04.080 if this is the way, if this is the truth, 167 00:09:04.919 --> 00:09:07.480 if this is the only one option I've got, I'd 168 00:09:07.559 --> 00:09:10.840 rather just check out now because I cannot participate in this. 169 00:09:11.039 --> 00:09:13.200 And so, you know, you get old enough you can 170 00:09:13.240 --> 00:09:16.799 go to the library by yourself or whatever. And of course, 171 00:09:16.840 --> 00:09:19.120 mind you, I'm talking about the seventies in the eighties, 172 00:09:19.159 --> 00:09:21.679 there's no internet there, you know, so well, you know, 173 00:09:21.840 --> 00:09:24.720 you finally found out what else is out there? And 174 00:09:24.759 --> 00:09:26.919 I'm like, oh, now, that was the one right thing. 175 00:09:26.960 --> 00:09:28.960 I knew. That was the thing I knew all along. 176 00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:30.519 I just didn't know what it was called. And you know, 177 00:09:30.519 --> 00:09:32.799 it seems like reincarnation because I was one of those 178 00:09:32.840 --> 00:09:35.519 weirdo kids that remembers my past life. I always have, 179 00:09:36.879 --> 00:09:42.639 and I I would have like PTSD like reactions as 180 00:09:42.679 --> 00:09:45.759 a small child to as if I had been in 181 00:09:45.799 --> 00:09:50.840 a terrible cataclysm some some traumatic thing. And I remember 182 00:09:51.039 --> 00:09:53.720 dying in World War Two. I didn't know it was 183 00:09:53.759 --> 00:09:56.720 World War Two until I got old enough to study 184 00:09:56.759 --> 00:10:00.720 those things and recognize things. But I died being crushed 185 00:10:00.799 --> 00:10:03.799 under the rubble of a building that was bombed out. 186 00:10:04.440 --> 00:10:09.679 And so I have PTSD like reactions to similar situations, 187 00:10:09.720 --> 00:10:12.120 you know. And so it took me a while to 188 00:10:12.159 --> 00:10:14.200 figure all that out and then do the actual spiritual 189 00:10:14.279 --> 00:10:18.159 journey work to discover it more specifically. But I'm also clairvoyant, 190 00:10:18.200 --> 00:10:22.879 just naturally. There's lots of things about me that made 191 00:10:22.919 --> 00:10:28.000 me very weird as a child and rejected for my 192 00:10:28.080 --> 00:10:31.039 weirdness as a child. And then I finally find out 193 00:10:31.320 --> 00:10:34.399 what it's all called. You know, the words reincarnation and 194 00:10:34.440 --> 00:10:38.039 the word you know, things that make sense. And so 195 00:10:38.120 --> 00:10:42.159 I started pursuing this and knowing what it was at seventeen. Oh, Okay, 196 00:10:42.200 --> 00:10:44.639 to answer your question. Originally, it took me a while 197 00:10:44.720 --> 00:10:47.799 to get there. Until then I thought it. I just 198 00:10:47.840 --> 00:10:51.000 called it the religion of Michelle. And then I found 199 00:10:51.000 --> 00:10:53.159 out that it already is an established thing, and it 200 00:10:53.200 --> 00:10:57.600 was just you know, occultism really well something. 201 00:10:57.320 --> 00:11:01.320 That's an interesting aside. Like we talked to Ronnie Pontiac 202 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:03.639 yesterday and he was talking about Manly P. Hall and 203 00:11:03.679 --> 00:11:06.480 his interactions with him, and it seemed like Manley PA 204 00:11:06.519 --> 00:11:09.639 Hall's journey was because the Internet didn't exist and he 205 00:11:09.679 --> 00:11:14.200 couldn't find these sources really readily. Is the Internet taking 206 00:11:14.240 --> 00:11:18.080 adventure out of the self discovery process? 207 00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:20.720 That's a good question. I'll tell you what it was 208 00:11:20.759 --> 00:11:23.759 a lot harder to find this stuff is. I was 209 00:11:23.840 --> 00:11:28.279 raised in Taylor, South Carolina. I didn't really find this 210 00:11:28.320 --> 00:11:31.039 stuff till I got out of South Carolina. I went 211 00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:34.279 as far away to college as I could possibly go, 212 00:11:34.679 --> 00:11:37.559 and I had it in my head that if you 213 00:11:37.639 --> 00:11:39.840 wanted to find witches you had to go to New England. 214 00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:42.919 Mind you, I was seventeen. What is a girl from 215 00:11:42.919 --> 00:11:45.799 South Carolina who was raised under her Southern Baptist rock. 216 00:11:46.279 --> 00:11:48.480 I had no idea I got to go to New England. 217 00:11:48.879 --> 00:11:50.919 So I go to college in Vermont and the very 218 00:11:50.919 --> 00:11:54.159 first things I'm looking for and I find this really 219 00:11:54.200 --> 00:11:56.600 awesome hippie dude who's wearing a pinnacle and I like 220 00:11:56.679 --> 00:11:58.679 attack him. I'm like, oh, tell me everything you know. 221 00:11:59.240 --> 00:12:01.279 And he's still a friend of mine to this day. 222 00:12:01.720 --> 00:12:03.679 But I was finally able to get some books. I 223 00:12:03.720 --> 00:12:06.360 was able to order some titles of things from my 224 00:12:06.399 --> 00:12:08.639 school bookstore that I had not been able to get 225 00:12:08.639 --> 00:12:11.320 my hands on in South Carolina that I couldn't have 226 00:12:11.320 --> 00:12:15.399 had in the house because of my mother basically being, 227 00:12:15.639 --> 00:12:20.879 you know, the security forces for Jesus, you know, and 228 00:12:20.960 --> 00:12:25.039 making sure that nobody thought a free thought otherwise. So anyway, 229 00:12:25.200 --> 00:12:27.519 once I got away, I was able to figure it out, 230 00:12:27.759 --> 00:12:30.600 and that's really when the journey began. But man, it 231 00:12:30.679 --> 00:12:32.799 was hard to find it. And you mentioned mainly, p Hall, 232 00:12:33.679 --> 00:12:36.240 I have got a treasure right behind me where I 233 00:12:36.279 --> 00:12:39.240 can grab it. Look at this. This is the Secret 234 00:12:39.279 --> 00:12:45.559 Teaching of All Ages, the fiftieth anniversary edition about one. 235 00:12:47.000 --> 00:12:49.799 This is one of my treasures of my of my library. 236 00:12:50.759 --> 00:12:53.720 I love this thing I found. Oh I do bibliomancy 237 00:12:53.799 --> 00:12:55.320 with this when I'm like, oh, I'm bored, let's learn 238 00:12:55.360 --> 00:12:56.039 something new today. 239 00:12:56.080 --> 00:12:56.919 Just fit nice. 240 00:12:58.039 --> 00:13:00.279 Oh and hey, look the elements in their inhabit So 241 00:13:00.320 --> 00:13:03.240 that would be how I first discovered that and then 242 00:13:03.320 --> 00:13:04.519 ultimately wrote a book about it. 243 00:13:06.279 --> 00:13:06.879 That's awesome. 244 00:13:08.279 --> 00:13:10.720 So I guess I know you kind of mentioned did 245 00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:12.799 anybody have any questions or ask anything before I go? 246 00:13:14.919 --> 00:13:17.840 You wanted to ask, are you solitary? Is there a 247 00:13:17.879 --> 00:13:23.559 particular tradition that you follow within witchcraft? Good question. Uh, well, 248 00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:27.720 it's kind of a both in that I wasn't trained 249 00:13:27.759 --> 00:13:33.639 in any particular tradition. I've had many mentors through the 250 00:13:33.720 --> 00:13:37.240 years who were also more like solitary at that point 251 00:13:37.840 --> 00:13:41.080 and taught me a lot, but never in that formalized 252 00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:47.240 teacher mentee where I was ultimately initiated, because everybody I 253 00:13:47.279 --> 00:13:50.240 studied with, regardless of if they had their own like 254 00:13:50.840 --> 00:13:55.480 old school priestess initiation, were choosing not to do that 255 00:13:55.600 --> 00:13:59.799 at that point, like they felt like the initiates should 256 00:13:59.799 --> 00:14:02.879 go to directly to Divinity, should received their initiation directly 257 00:14:02.879 --> 00:14:04.919 from Divinity. They would teach me everything they need, but 258 00:14:04.919 --> 00:14:08.080 they left that stuff between me and the gods. And 259 00:14:08.200 --> 00:14:12.600 so ultimately that's how I got there, is me being stubborn, 260 00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:17.679 just banging on the door of the mysteries until I 261 00:14:17.799 --> 00:14:22.080 was let in one one way or another, and then 262 00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:26.879 I I kind of rallied all the rest of the 263 00:14:26.919 --> 00:14:31.039 folks who were looking for information. I passed on what 264 00:14:31.159 --> 00:14:35.919 I had been taught by individuals and what I had 265 00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:39.879 been reading. But as it happens, because just about everything 266 00:14:39.960 --> 00:14:45.679 in my astrological chart has to do with mercury virgo here, 267 00:14:46.159 --> 00:14:51.879 you know mercury there, I teach. That's what I do. 268 00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:55.840 I talk about things. I am very analytical. I can 269 00:14:55.879 --> 00:14:59.840 then summarize and communicate it. That's one of my strengths. 270 00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:02.840 And I was called to share that by my guides, 271 00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:05.559 like do what you gotta do to share this? So 272 00:15:05.759 --> 00:15:08.919 I have been teaching about it for so long that 273 00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:11.480 eventually you get other folks around you, and now we 274 00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:15.159 all consider ourselves self initiated solitary witches who then want 275 00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:18.120 to team up. And then that became a coven, which 276 00:15:18.200 --> 00:15:20.480 then became a formal training program which went on for 277 00:15:20.480 --> 00:15:23.240 more than a decade, which now has second degree people 278 00:15:23.279 --> 00:15:28.080 who've chosen to initiate to the clergy status and then 279 00:15:28.120 --> 00:15:33.480 third degree. And it's just like self made, so so 280 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:37.559 the no and that I was a solitary eclectic self taught, 281 00:15:38.960 --> 00:15:42.519 which then I taught that so long that it became 282 00:15:42.559 --> 00:15:46.519 its own codified tradition with its so many initiates that 283 00:15:46.559 --> 00:15:49.840 then hung around together and continued to teach and bring 284 00:15:50.440 --> 00:15:53.720 you know, we coagulated all this information together into what 285 00:15:53.799 --> 00:15:58.039 became known as the Sojourner Tradition of modern witchcraft, and 286 00:15:58.120 --> 00:16:03.480 then that was formalize. We had a coven that operated 287 00:16:03.519 --> 00:16:06.519 for over a decade. I was the founding high priestess. 288 00:16:06.559 --> 00:16:10.960 I served for five or six of the ten or 289 00:16:10.960 --> 00:16:14.840 twelve years that it operated. It most recently decided to 290 00:16:14.840 --> 00:16:18.039 go on. We went on a hiatus after the whole 291 00:16:18.039 --> 00:16:21.399 COVID thing shut down the teaching program, and we did 292 00:16:21.519 --> 00:16:23.639 continue on for a long time, but a lot of 293 00:16:23.679 --> 00:16:27.159 our main members moved away and we kind of the 294 00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:29.879 core group was a little small, and we just decided 295 00:16:29.919 --> 00:16:31.360 to take a break for a while. So it's not 296 00:16:31.399 --> 00:16:35.639 currently operating, but it does still exist, and there are 297 00:16:35.639 --> 00:16:41.919 initiates all over the country that self initiated us through 298 00:16:41.960 --> 00:16:44.440 our training program. And then that training program that I 299 00:16:44.480 --> 00:16:49.799 taught for those ten years became became part of this book. 300 00:16:50.039 --> 00:16:53.080 The program is ultimately going to be revealed through all 301 00:16:53.120 --> 00:16:59.559 three of the books in the Pinnacle Path, but only 302 00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:01.399 some of it. And then of course once I wrote 303 00:17:01.399 --> 00:17:04.039 the books, I add so much more, because you know, 304 00:17:04.279 --> 00:17:06.839 when you teach Wika one on one or witchcraft, it's 305 00:17:06.839 --> 00:17:09.440 not really wika. When you teach witchcraft one oh one 306 00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:13.480 for ten straight years, your soul just is dying to 307 00:17:13.559 --> 00:17:17.759 get into deeper stuff and go other places. I mean, 308 00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:21.160 it's important to teach the beginning stuff to new students. 309 00:17:21.960 --> 00:17:24.160 But it was in my private work and then my 310 00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:26.720 private work with the coven later on in those who 311 00:17:26.799 --> 00:17:30.079 stuck around, and we really taught each other a lot, 312 00:17:30.160 --> 00:17:33.240 and we continued to just move forward in the mysteries, 313 00:17:33.920 --> 00:17:36.519 each person bringing their own interest into the pot. It 314 00:17:36.559 --> 00:17:42.000 was like a cauldron of ideas. And the books themselves 315 00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:45.839 are very different than the program was when I taught it. 316 00:17:45.960 --> 00:17:49.000 But we had to shut down the teaching program on 317 00:17:49.079 --> 00:17:51.480 Thursday nights out of the shop. We had to shut 318 00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:54.599 that down in March of the well, actually I think 319 00:17:54.599 --> 00:17:56.880 we made it through May online and then we just 320 00:17:56.920 --> 00:18:00.279 stopped the teaching program and it's not been I've been 321 00:18:00.279 --> 00:18:02.319 held in person since then. But I'm getting ready to 322 00:18:02.359 --> 00:18:05.920 reopen my classroom again. I'm really excited about that. 323 00:18:08.119 --> 00:18:09.480 And you used to do that right out of the 324 00:18:09.480 --> 00:18:12.119 store or no, oh yeah, oh. 325 00:18:12.119 --> 00:18:14.880 Yeah, I would pack twenty people into that big central room. 326 00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:17.599 Mind you you saw it well after it had been 327 00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:21.839 turned mostly into retail space. Its original concept was that 328 00:18:21.960 --> 00:18:26.799 it was a community center, a teach a place where 329 00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:31.640 people could have meetings, and we held rituals and community 330 00:18:31.680 --> 00:18:34.319 events and meetups, et cetera. And it just had a 331 00:18:34.359 --> 00:18:38.680 store in the front. After the whole COVID thing shut 332 00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:41.000 down all the in person meetings, we really expanded the 333 00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:44.319 retail to take up those spaces, because even after we 334 00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:48.079 tried to reopen things in like twenty two or twenty three, 335 00:18:48.279 --> 00:18:52.039 nobody would come. People were still too nervous. But I 336 00:18:52.039 --> 00:18:55.200 think we're finally there and I'm reopening the old classroom 337 00:18:56.039 --> 00:18:58.559 and so now it's a private reading space and I 338 00:18:58.599 --> 00:19:01.240 read Taro every other Sunday out of the store, and 339 00:19:01.279 --> 00:19:04.519 I do read the the Alistair Croley Deck, the Toat Deck, 340 00:19:04.559 --> 00:19:07.440 which I know is something that you talk about a lot. Yeah, 341 00:19:07.799 --> 00:19:09.720 that's that's that's what I do. 342 00:19:11.319 --> 00:19:13.160 I did notice you seemed interested when I did mention 343 00:19:13.240 --> 00:19:14.920 to you, I was I used to be in the Oto. 344 00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:19.480 Oh yeah, yeah, I know you were like, oh oh okay, definitely. 345 00:19:19.559 --> 00:19:21.200 I mean when you told me that I knew what 346 00:19:21.240 --> 00:19:21.880 I was dealing with. 347 00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:26.359 I get it. Yeah, it goes yeah, that's funny. 348 00:19:27.039 --> 00:19:28.880 I mean I mentioned the OTO in my book all 349 00:19:28.920 --> 00:19:30.680 the time because I think people need to know where 350 00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:33.599 these concepts come from. And even if you never study 351 00:19:33.640 --> 00:19:36.240 the OTO, you don't know anything about Alistair Crowley or 352 00:19:36.440 --> 00:19:41.839 nothing about Filema. You if you are in witchcraft, any flavor, 353 00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:44.799 especially Wicca, it is all flavored up with that. That 354 00:19:44.920 --> 00:19:47.799 is the major spice in the soup. And even if. 355 00:19:48.799 --> 00:19:53.119 Way I was going to cover Gerald Gardner and how 356 00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:56.200 much he was taking from the OTO uh in a 357 00:19:56.279 --> 00:19:57.960 in a program, but we never got a round to it. 358 00:19:58.039 --> 00:20:00.400 But this is the perfect example. It's you know, it's 359 00:20:00.519 --> 00:20:04.279 right there. Once you compare the two, you know Witchcraft 360 00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:06.599 and OTO are pretty much inseparable. 361 00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:11.160 It's so well had he got a charter directly from Crowing. 362 00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:12.799 You said that in one of your episodes. I heard it. 363 00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:14.119 I had it playing on my TV and I was 364 00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:16.920 like talking about Gardner. I was like, I haven't heard 365 00:20:16.920 --> 00:20:18.440 too many people. I don't know a lot of witch grist. 366 00:20:18.440 --> 00:20:20.599 People don't like admitting that stuff for some reason. So 367 00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:22.079 I was like surprised, I hear you say it. 368 00:20:22.759 --> 00:20:28.559 Gardner was the number one eclecticus of his time. I mean, 369 00:20:28.680 --> 00:20:31.720 he just went around pulling what he found to be 370 00:20:31.759 --> 00:20:35.839 relevant and interesting and useful from all of these places, 371 00:20:36.720 --> 00:20:41.960 and to say otherwise is just ignorant of his story. 372 00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:46.480 I mean, I've read his biography. I know where he got. 373 00:20:47.880 --> 00:20:48.079 Right. 374 00:20:48.240 --> 00:20:51.799 And uh, what a friend I met way back in 375 00:20:51.839 --> 00:20:55.400 the nineties, a guy named Isaac Bonowitz. He's he's a 376 00:20:55.519 --> 00:21:00.960 legend and legend. Yeah, well he he started his whole 377 00:21:01.039 --> 00:21:05.759 pursuit of druidry based off of what he was experiencing with, 378 00:21:06.160 --> 00:21:10.039 you know, the Gardenerian witchcraft. So he was trying to 379 00:21:10.079 --> 00:21:13.720 do a more accurate historical approach as opposed to the 380 00:21:13.880 --> 00:21:16.160 eclectic approachship of Jerald Gardner. 381 00:21:17.279 --> 00:21:22.359 Oh sure, I mean, I'm definitely an eclecticist. I mean, 382 00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:26.359 and that became an ugly word not you know, in 383 00:21:26.440 --> 00:21:29.759 which current Oh you're an eclectic that's not to be 384 00:21:29.799 --> 00:21:32.400 taken seriously. And I'm like, yo, I learned from the best, 385 00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:38.440 you know, Daryl Gardner and Dreene Valiante, all of them. 386 00:21:39.160 --> 00:21:44.359 You know, let's just say that I've taken lesson from 387 00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:48.200 their example, if not by their creed, of how to 388 00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:53.880 go about hobbling together a meaningful personal practice without being 389 00:21:53.920 --> 00:21:56.279 a slave to dogma. Because look, I came up in 390 00:21:56.319 --> 00:22:00.640 the Southern Baptist Church. Anything starts to smack or oh 391 00:22:00.680 --> 00:22:03.400 there's only one right way, or you're not allowed to 392 00:22:03.480 --> 00:22:07.039 change anything or think a different thought, or you know, 393 00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:10.839 I just immediately reject that, reject it, because. 394 00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:13.880 Yes, I love it. 395 00:22:14.599 --> 00:22:18.319 Well said, I know you kind of got into it 396 00:22:18.319 --> 00:22:21.200 a little bit already, but like, I guess maybe you 397 00:22:21.240 --> 00:22:22.480 want to talk a little bit before we get into 398 00:22:22.519 --> 00:22:24.079 the book about like when did you have the idea 399 00:22:24.119 --> 00:22:24.640 for the store? 400 00:22:24.960 --> 00:22:26.240 I mean, I know you kind of shy. 401 00:22:26.759 --> 00:22:30.640