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True Murder with your 54 00:02:34.520 --> 00:02:38.360 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 55 00:02:46.800 --> 00:02:53.879 Good Evening. For nearly forty years, Jim Simoni patrolled Cleveland's 56 00:02:53.879 --> 00:02:56.759 Second District, a drug plagued area with one of the 57 00:02:56.879 --> 00:03:02.240 highest violent crime rates in the US. Named Supercop, Simoni 58 00:03:02.639 --> 00:03:06.159 generated headlines in public interest on a scale not seen 59 00:03:06.240 --> 00:03:09.639 since Elliot Neest searched for the Clevelands for Cleveland's Torso 60 00:03:09.800 --> 00:03:13.719 murderer in the nineteen thirties. Simoni entered police work after 61 00:03:13.800 --> 00:03:17.919 serving in Vietnam with the one hundred first Airborne, where 62 00:03:17.919 --> 00:03:21.080 he earned two Bronze Stars and two Purple Hearts. As 63 00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:24.039 a cop, he never shied from danger. He was involved 64 00:03:24.039 --> 00:03:26.800 in numerous gun battles and killed five people in the 65 00:03:26.879 --> 00:03:32.240 line of duty, all ruled justifiable notoriously equitable. As a cop, 66 00:03:33.280 --> 00:03:37.560 Simoni was more interested in doing the right thing than 67 00:03:37.680 --> 00:03:42.240 honoring the blue code. Badge three eight seven recounts the 68 00:03:42.360 --> 00:03:47.240 brave exploits that earned simone hundreds of commendations. In nineteen 69 00:03:47.240 --> 00:03:49.719 eighty three, while searching a church basement for a gunman, 70 00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:53.240 he was shot in a face. Despite his wounds, he 71 00:03:53.360 --> 00:03:56.719 managed to shoot his assailant, saving himself and two other cops. 72 00:03:57.240 --> 00:03:59.400 And in two thousand and nine, he plunged into a 73 00:03:59.439 --> 00:04:03.360 frigid river to save a woman. Simony was Cleveland's Patrolman 74 00:04:03.439 --> 00:04:05.840 of the Year in nineteen eighty and two thousand and nine, 75 00:04:06.599 --> 00:04:09.599 the only officer in the city's history to receive the 76 00:04:09.639 --> 00:04:13.120 award twice. The book that we're featuring this evening is 77 00:04:13.199 --> 00:04:17.279 Badge three eighty seven, The Story of Jim Simoni, America's 78 00:04:17.480 --> 00:04:21.040 most decorated Cop, With my special guest, journalist and author 79 00:04:21.560 --> 00:04:24.160 Robert Sperna. Welcome back to the program and thank you 80 00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:28.199 for a green diest interview. Robert Sperna, Thank you, Dan, 81 00:04:28.279 --> 00:04:31.560 thanks for having me back. Thank you very much for 82 00:04:32.040 --> 00:04:35.680 joining me on this programmed this evening with this incredible 83 00:04:35.720 --> 00:04:40.839 book The question I want to ask is, because i'm is, 84 00:04:41.600 --> 00:04:45.319 how did you make the decision to write this book 85 00:04:45.639 --> 00:04:48.480 at this time? With everything going on in America right now? 86 00:04:49.360 --> 00:04:52.920 True crime author, with all kinds of options, I would 87 00:04:53.000 --> 00:04:55.759 think for you to be able to write a book, 88 00:04:56.720 --> 00:04:59.199 why did was this book important? Why was a book 89 00:04:59.199 --> 00:05:02.639 about Jim Simone and his police work an important book 90 00:05:02.959 --> 00:05:04.480 to write? Now? 91 00:05:06.199 --> 00:05:10.319 I took kind of a circuitous route to this book. 92 00:05:10.360 --> 00:05:16.040 I originally in May twenty thirteen, Ariel Castro, the so 93 00:05:16.199 --> 00:05:19.399 called Cleveland kidnapper, who had held three women hostage in 94 00:05:19.480 --> 00:05:22.439 his house for ten years. He was in the news 95 00:05:22.480 --> 00:05:25.160 one of the women had broken loose, and the world 96 00:05:25.560 --> 00:05:29.800 saw the rescue of these three hostages. I wanted to 97 00:05:29.879 --> 00:05:32.600 do something on that book that was a Cleveland story. 98 00:05:32.680 --> 00:05:36.480 I'm a Cleveland dirt, but international media descended on that 99 00:05:36.600 --> 00:05:38.759 and I really couldn't. I didn't find I could get 100 00:05:38.759 --> 00:05:44.480 a real good piece of that book. In investigating that case, 101 00:05:45.199 --> 00:05:49.000 I discovered that Ariel Castro, who was a Cleveland school 102 00:05:49.000 --> 00:05:53.519 bus driver, had been Jim Simony had done a traffic 103 00:05:53.600 --> 00:05:56.759 stop on him a couple of years before. The women 104 00:05:56.839 --> 00:06:01.279 had escaped like two an eleven or so, and he 105 00:06:01.360 --> 00:06:05.160 had a dash cam of the traffic stop. And because 106 00:06:05.240 --> 00:06:08.720 Castro was a school bus driver, and Simoni knew that 107 00:06:08.879 --> 00:06:11.240 if he arrested him because he was he was riding 108 00:06:11.279 --> 00:06:15.160 a motorcycle with improper plates, arrested him, he'd lose his job. 109 00:06:15.839 --> 00:06:18.959 So Simoni gave him a warning let him go. So 110 00:06:19.279 --> 00:06:23.560 national news, national news shows were interviewing Simoni about that 111 00:06:23.639 --> 00:06:26.759 traffic stop because there was a big hunger for any 112 00:06:26.839 --> 00:06:30.199 news about the case, of course, and it even got 113 00:06:30.240 --> 00:06:33.639 as far as some broadcasters accusing Simony of letting the 114 00:06:33.680 --> 00:06:37.199 Cleveland kidnappers slip through his fingers, as if Jim would 115 00:06:37.240 --> 00:06:39.040 have known he had three women in his basement. Right. 116 00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:42.879 So I didn't get that book deal. But in talking 117 00:06:42.920 --> 00:06:45.800 to Simoni over the next year or so, and we 118 00:06:45.879 --> 00:06:48.720 had the Ferguson case with Michael Brown, we had Eric 119 00:06:48.759 --> 00:06:52.360 Garner in New York, we had two people in Cleveland 120 00:06:52.360 --> 00:06:55.839 that were killed by police. I just started getting interested 121 00:06:55.959 --> 00:07:00.519 in what happens in a police involved shooting. In other words, Dan, 122 00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:04.560 what happened to that split second where some police shoot 123 00:07:04.720 --> 00:07:08.240 and some police don't. I realized that I had a 124 00:07:08.319 --> 00:07:12.120 real gem in Simony not to be light hearted about 125 00:07:12.160 --> 00:07:15.439 this of course, because Jim had been involved in five 126 00:07:15.879 --> 00:07:20.920 fatal shootings, all will justifiable. So I pivoted towards him 127 00:07:21.560 --> 00:07:24.519 and start you know, I just proposed a book to 128 00:07:24.639 --> 00:07:27.639 him and we got it done. My goal in doing 129 00:07:27.680 --> 00:07:30.879 the book, of course, was to surface some issues about 130 00:07:30.959 --> 00:07:32.160 police involve shootings. 131 00:07:34.720 --> 00:07:37.399 Now you talk about you said, there's a couple of 132 00:07:37.439 --> 00:07:41.439 weighty questions. You said, what are the inciting factors compel 133 00:07:41.480 --> 00:07:45.360 a police officer to take legal lethal action? And you say, 134 00:07:45.839 --> 00:07:47.639 and this I think is important for all of us, 135 00:07:47.759 --> 00:07:50.800 is that can civilians fairly judge a cop split second 136 00:07:50.879 --> 00:07:56.759 response to perceived deadly situation and as the media acting 137 00:07:56.839 --> 00:08:01.519 objectively in its second guessing of police discretion or is 138 00:08:01.600 --> 00:08:02.680 there an agenda? 139 00:08:03.680 --> 00:08:06.680 No, I don't think at that split second we can 140 00:08:06.759 --> 00:08:10.240 really put ourselves in that police officers shoes. It's a 141 00:08:10.319 --> 00:08:14.040 matter of them believing that they're in fear for their lives, 142 00:08:14.079 --> 00:08:17.160 and how can we judge that? We can, however, looked 143 00:08:17.160 --> 00:08:22.439 at the context some officers most shootings, A small percentage 144 00:08:22.439 --> 00:08:24.720 of police officers are involved in a large percent of 145 00:08:25.240 --> 00:08:30.079 shootings in you know, the lates in the seventies, people 146 00:08:30.160 --> 00:08:33.360 coming out of Vietnam, such as Jim Simoni. They were 147 00:08:33.399 --> 00:08:37.039 given preferential hiring by police departments. They wanted that type 148 00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:43.840 of proactive, aggressive personality regimented like Jim was. That's a 149 00:08:43.960 --> 00:08:48.519 no nonsense you know Bosster the wall officer, that's the 150 00:08:48.559 --> 00:08:51.559 guy that would chase danger and not shy from danger 151 00:08:51.639 --> 00:08:54.159 and maybe face it head on. Okay, So if we 152 00:08:54.240 --> 00:08:58.639 look at it from that standpoint in twenty sixteen, now, 153 00:08:58.960 --> 00:09:01.440 maybe we can judge that. We can say, well, why 154 00:09:01.559 --> 00:09:05.159 did you run into that basement? The government wasn't going anywhere, 155 00:09:05.159 --> 00:09:08.279 he was trapped. Why not wait for swat? Why not 156 00:09:08.399 --> 00:09:10.639 wait for a supervisor to get there? So we can 157 00:09:10.759 --> 00:09:14.000 judge the actions beforehand, I think. But once an officer 158 00:09:14.080 --> 00:09:16.360 is face to face with somebody and they feel danger, 159 00:09:17.080 --> 00:09:19.600 it'd be very hard to second guess them. As to 160 00:09:19.679 --> 00:09:23.159 the question about the media, what I found out was, 161 00:09:23.200 --> 00:09:27.960 and I used to be a reporter for newspapers, I 162 00:09:28.039 --> 00:09:30.919 think the meetia nowadays were for They're forced into a 163 00:09:30.919 --> 00:09:34.720 position where they have to cover events, not news. Police 164 00:09:35.279 --> 00:09:40.679 shoots on our man that's the headline. Well that's true, maybe, 165 00:09:40.759 --> 00:09:42.960 but we don't have the whole story. It's gonna take 166 00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:45.399 a couple of days, maybe a week to find out 167 00:09:45.440 --> 00:09:48.720 really what the story was, What was he holding his hand? 168 00:09:49.159 --> 00:09:51.320 Why did the police officer feel like he was gonna 169 00:09:51.360 --> 00:09:56.080 kill him? We don't get that background anymore up front, 170 00:09:56.480 --> 00:10:01.519 you know, before electronic media, before blogs, you know, and 171 00:10:01.799 --> 00:10:07.279 citizen journalists, reporters had kind of an unspoken rule with police, 172 00:10:07.480 --> 00:10:10.279 you know, give us a couple hours, give us tomorrow morning, 173 00:10:10.600 --> 00:10:12.799 let us figure this out, and you know, we'll give 174 00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:15.399 you a story. Well, doesn't happen that way anymore. There's 175 00:10:15.440 --> 00:10:20.360 so much competition to get cliques coverage that they're just 176 00:10:20.480 --> 00:10:27.159 covering incomplete stories. Second, to add to that, collaterally, I 177 00:10:27.240 --> 00:10:31.039 think some special interest groups have discovered that they can 178 00:10:31.080 --> 00:10:34.519 almost partner with the media to get agendas across and 179 00:10:35.720 --> 00:10:39.720 in somewhat of a sensational way by blaming police for shootings. Now, 180 00:10:39.759 --> 00:10:43.559 I'm not an apologist for police. I'm not making excuses 181 00:10:43.639 --> 00:10:48.840 for them, but a very small percentage of police do 182 00:10:49.120 --> 00:10:52.000 make mistakes of millions of law enforcement officers out there, 183 00:10:52.440 --> 00:10:58.440 and we're seeing that in some cases that these situations 184 00:10:58.480 --> 00:11:01.519 are being seized on to push in. So I don't 185 00:11:01.559 --> 00:11:05.000 know that that's fair to a policeman, and society's going 186 00:11:05.080 --> 00:11:07.799 to pay for that, I think jumping in just a 187 00:11:07.840 --> 00:11:10.120 little bit, it's going to be harder to recruit police 188 00:11:10.159 --> 00:11:13.559 officers to an environment that they feel is hostile. 189 00:11:16.559 --> 00:11:20.159 Now with this book, and you talk about the environment, 190 00:11:20.240 --> 00:11:23.639 and we all know people listening to this program in 191 00:11:23.720 --> 00:11:27.399 America and outside of America know they know of the 192 00:11:27.480 --> 00:11:30.519 situation in America right now, the racial tension and the 193 00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:34.519 tension between civilians and police. I don't know if it's 194 00:11:34.559 --> 00:11:38.559 ever been worse, but it's a very crucial period right now. 195 00:11:38.639 --> 00:11:42.799 So when you're talking about writing an entire book about 196 00:11:43.320 --> 00:11:45.360 a cop, you've got to make sure that this is 197 00:11:45.679 --> 00:11:52.480 an extraordinary police officer and someone that's out of not typical. 198 00:11:53.000 --> 00:11:56.120 And that's what you found in Jim Simoni. So let's 199 00:11:56.159 --> 00:12:02.840 go back to his upbringing and how and what things 200 00:12:02.960 --> 00:12:06.279 shaped Jim Simony so that he could We talked about 201 00:12:06.360 --> 00:12:09.879 him going to Vietnam, So let's talk about his early childhood, 202 00:12:10.360 --> 00:12:13.879 his character, and what prompted him to be the kind 203 00:12:13.919 --> 00:12:17.200 of man that he became a war hero in Vietnam. 204 00:12:17.559 --> 00:12:18.840 Let's talk about his early life. 205 00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:24.919 Okay, well, I yeah, I think Freud, you know, might 206 00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:29.360 have a field day with Jim. He in talking to Jim. 207 00:12:30.360 --> 00:12:33.559 I decided to focus on Jim because Jim had been there, 208 00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:36.559 so to speak, he'd been involved in shootings. But what 209 00:12:36.679 --> 00:12:38.639 I really wanted to know is why were you there? 210 00:12:38.720 --> 00:12:41.639 Why did you put yourself in those positions? I never 211 00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:43.720 really got that from him. Jim. You know, he's not 212 00:12:45.639 --> 00:12:49.399 I didn't find he's not completely an introspective person. He's 213 00:12:49.440 --> 00:12:52.080 a duer. He's a type as he's a get done person, 214 00:12:52.200 --> 00:12:56.279 not think about it. So I interviewed people around him, 215 00:12:56.279 --> 00:13:01.200 his brother, relatives, old friends, and he was raised by 216 00:13:01.279 --> 00:13:05.399 a very strong mother, very ethical, divorced at a young age, 217 00:13:06.080 --> 00:13:07.919 so he had a very close bond to his mother. 218 00:13:09.399 --> 00:13:14.120 His brother filled in a lot of the blanks. Mom was, 219 00:13:14.480 --> 00:13:17.879 you know, black and white. She didn't see great. Either 220 00:13:17.960 --> 00:13:20.080 something was right or it was wrong, and she wouldn't 221 00:13:20.120 --> 00:13:23.799 tolerate wrong. I think she instilled those ethics in Jim. 222 00:13:24.840 --> 00:13:29.759 His relatives, his stepfather's father, were all military veterans, combat veterans, 223 00:13:30.200 --> 00:13:34.000 so from a young age he had that filtered down 224 00:13:34.080 --> 00:13:39.960 to him. You know, the patriotism, willingness to serve sacrificial 225 00:13:40.080 --> 00:13:43.240 life for the country, those sort of ethics, and they 226 00:13:43.279 --> 00:13:47.480 were so strong that he you know, it was the 227 00:13:47.559 --> 00:13:51.879 type of individual didn't question them. So now we look 228 00:13:51.960 --> 00:13:54.440 back at Vietnam and you know, maybe we really have 229 00:13:54.639 --> 00:13:58.600 some serious concerns about why we were there. Jim wasn't 230 00:13:58.679 --> 00:14:01.639 that personality. He felt it was duty, his duty go 231 00:14:01.720 --> 00:14:06.399 to Vietnam. Now, every step of Jim's way, not only 232 00:14:06.960 --> 00:14:10.360 did he want to join to be in the infantry, 233 00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:13.960 but he wanted to be a paratrooper. So there always 234 00:14:13.960 --> 00:14:19.200 seemed to be some sense of proving himself. And I'm 235 00:14:19.360 --> 00:14:22.639 asking Jim, you know he wanted to be in combat. Jim, 236 00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:27.720 why did you pick situations or occupations that would put 237 00:14:27.759 --> 00:14:30.840 yourself at risk? And you know, he never really knew. 238 00:14:30.879 --> 00:14:35.039 He could never really explain, And just guessing with what 239 00:14:35.200 --> 00:14:39.080 I know, I think, you know, he's always maybe trying 240 00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:43.159 to live up to somebody's vision of what he should be, 241 00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:46.600 whether that's his own or his mother's. I'm not sure. 242 00:14:46.840 --> 00:14:50.480 I'm not sure what drove him, but I think I mean, 243 00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:53.320 he was a great soldier. I talked to his company 244 00:14:53.360 --> 00:14:55.960 commanders in Vietnam, and you know, if they needed to go, 245 00:14:56.240 --> 00:14:59.799 have somebody charge an enemy machine gun nests, Hey, Simoni, 246 00:15:00.159 --> 00:15:02.639 take somebody with him, get it done. And he do it. 247 00:15:05.559 --> 00:15:08.120 I don't know, I don't know why he put himself 248 00:15:08.159 --> 00:15:10.679 in those situations, but that's just what he did. He was, 249 00:15:10.840 --> 00:15:16.240 you know, obviously proving something to somebody. Okay, So comes 250 00:15:16.279 --> 00:15:21.120 out of Vietnam a young guy and goes into police work, 251 00:15:21.159 --> 00:15:24.399 and of course he takes he gravitates towards the most 252 00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:28.480 dangerous job of police has, which is traffic duty. Traffic 253 00:15:28.559 --> 00:15:31.799 stops the middle of the night, where you know, most 254 00:15:31.919 --> 00:15:35.639 the most dangerous people are you know, are you interact with, 255 00:15:36.440 --> 00:15:38.759 so they're always you know, throughout his life there's always 256 00:15:38.840 --> 00:15:44.679 that that willingness, almost compulsion to put himself in a 257 00:15:44.799 --> 00:15:49.399 situation where he could prove his his uh gallantry, his 258 00:15:49.720 --> 00:15:53.720 his courage. I would have to trigger to something. You 259 00:15:53.840 --> 00:15:56.559 have to attribute it to something in his childhood if 260 00:15:56.639 --> 00:16:00.879 I you know, as a layperson, you. 261 00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:05.039 Write in a book that's an interesting scene where he's 262 00:16:05.080 --> 00:16:09.519 eighteen years old and his stepfather walks into his room 263 00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:14.559 and says, hey, you know, you're eighteen and there's a 264 00:16:14.600 --> 00:16:19.000 war going on and basically tells him go and list tomorrow. 265 00:16:19.600 --> 00:16:22.279 So that's it's a testament to the kind of family 266 00:16:22.399 --> 00:16:27.279 comes from that they expect this from their family members. 267 00:16:28.840 --> 00:16:34.720 Yeah, yeah, yeah, he really in his mind he didn't 268 00:16:34.759 --> 00:16:37.840 have a choice. He could have gone Navy, he could 269 00:16:37.879 --> 00:16:41.039 have gone air Force, but you know Jim, Jim picked 270 00:16:41.080 --> 00:16:46.000 one hundred and first Airborne a fighting unit. Yes, you know. 271 00:16:46.360 --> 00:16:48.600 Now you talk about better way to see action, go ahead. 272 00:16:49.519 --> 00:16:52.919 You talk about his service in Vietnam, and it's impressive 273 00:16:53.039 --> 00:16:59.559 because because of the bravery that he he shows towards 274 00:16:59.639 --> 00:17:06.400 its fellow fellow military and doing things like you call 275 00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:09.599 him a tunnel rat where to go see if there 276 00:17:09.799 --> 00:17:16.000 was either bombs or you know, an army personnel in 277 00:17:16.160 --> 00:17:18.599 these tunnels. He was a small enough guy that he 278 00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:20.319 had gone in there at one hundred and sixty pounds, 279 00:17:20.319 --> 00:17:22.160 you saying he was down to one hundred and twenty pounds. 280 00:17:22.200 --> 00:17:24.920 It was five foot seven, and he could get into 281 00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:27.359 these tunnels. But tell us a little bit just to 282 00:17:27.480 --> 00:17:31.359 describe the amount of the level of bravery, what these 283 00:17:31.400 --> 00:17:39.279 tunnels involved, and what involved Jim going into these tunnels. 284 00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:45.599 During the Cat Defensive, I think there was nineteen sixty eight, 285 00:17:45.960 --> 00:17:51.559 the new year, the Viet Kong Viet Cong in the 286 00:17:51.680 --> 00:17:57.160 North Vietnamese Regular Army made a series of devastating attacks 287 00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:01.920 on the US and South Vietnam these bases, and they 288 00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:04.519 did it through that through a maze of tunnels that 289 00:18:04.599 --> 00:18:08.279 had built been built in the Kuchi district and really 290 00:18:08.359 --> 00:18:10.799 extended all the way throughout the country. And those had 291 00:18:10.839 --> 00:18:15.000 been built during the French Indo China War where the 292 00:18:15.119 --> 00:18:18.640 Vietnamese were power out numbered and out gunned, and they 293 00:18:18.680 --> 00:18:25.319 went underground. They had hospitals, they had ammunitions cachets down there, 294 00:18:25.440 --> 00:18:30.519 they hit out dining halls. So the order came down 295 00:18:31.799 --> 00:18:34.359 from from the top that whenever you guys came across 296 00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:37.319 one of these tunnel openings, you couldn't just walk by it. 297 00:18:37.720 --> 00:18:39.279 You had to go in. You had to find out 298 00:18:39.279 --> 00:18:44.119 if there's anybody in there. So Jim, who had lost 299 00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:45.839 a lot of weight, and it's kind of a short guy, 300 00:18:45.880 --> 00:18:48.359 he's about five seven, he's one of the few guys 301 00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:52.319 that could that could slip in there. And you know, 302 00:18:52.359 --> 00:18:54.359 as I say in the book, they'd go in bare 303 00:18:54.480 --> 00:18:58.279 chested with just a forty five in a flashlight, maybe 304 00:18:58.319 --> 00:19:01.079 a knife in their teeth, allright in head first and 305 00:19:02.119 --> 00:19:05.359 you know, look for viet Cong. Try to avoid booby traps. 306 00:19:05.400 --> 00:19:09.759 I mean the booby traps were almost comically lethal. I mean, 307 00:19:09.920 --> 00:19:14.200 snakes and that would be tied to posts and poisoned 308 00:19:14.240 --> 00:19:18.400 bamboo sticks. But you know, your commander tees you do 309 00:19:18.599 --> 00:19:23.400 something and you just do it. They you know, I 310 00:19:23.480 --> 00:19:27.160 guess you know, technically he asks for volunteers, but you 311 00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:29.279 know they're looking at you when they're asking for volunteers. 312 00:19:30.680 --> 00:19:35.640 So Jim another way for Jim to distinguish himself, to 313 00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:42.759 show his metal and he, uh, you know, he did it. 314 00:19:43.000 --> 00:19:45.359 He got the job done at his own risk. 315 00:19:49.119 --> 00:19:51.880 Now there's all these exploits that he has in Vietnam 316 00:19:53.359 --> 00:19:56.400 which again shape him and make him the person that 317 00:19:56.519 --> 00:19:58.640 he is, and he's more than prepared to be a 318 00:19:58.680 --> 00:20:01.599 police officer when he gets back. But let's talk about 319 00:20:02.079 --> 00:20:06.079 just the incredible scene that you have here where and 320 00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:09.480 again it's important because well it's important in the story. 321 00:20:09.960 --> 00:20:16.319 This Lieutenant Bill Meechim and Simone is again risking his 322 00:20:16.440 --> 00:20:19.079 life out in the field and where he didn't have to, 323 00:20:19.960 --> 00:20:23.480 and he is shot in the throat and so just 324 00:20:23.599 --> 00:20:26.960 take us to what his prognosis is in terms of 325 00:20:27.119 --> 00:20:30.839 people looking around on his likelihood of surviving. And this 326 00:20:31.000 --> 00:20:34.039 incredible story about this Lieutenant Bill Meacham that doesn't have 327 00:20:34.160 --> 00:20:36.519 to it's a helicopter pilot doesn't have to fly in there, 328 00:20:36.920 --> 00:20:38.240 but he does tell us about this. 329 00:20:38.279 --> 00:20:44.640 Story, right, Simony, you'd be you'd been trained as a 330 00:20:44.720 --> 00:20:48.559 radio operator if I could just digress for really quickly. 331 00:20:49.880 --> 00:20:54.039 A radio operator in Vietnam just had to be quick thinker, 332 00:20:54.119 --> 00:20:56.000 He had to be sharp, He had to be organized 333 00:20:56.039 --> 00:20:59.559 because you're you're communicating with so many different people, the 334 00:20:59.720 --> 00:21:06.880 the artillery, guns, your commanding officer, your platoon all at 335 00:21:06.920 --> 00:21:09.079 the same time. You got to keep everything straight. So 336 00:21:09.279 --> 00:21:11.079 Jim had that kind of mind that he could do 337 00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:15.359 that and just digressing for a second here when he 338 00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:18.400 was I have some tapes of him on police chases. 339 00:21:19.240 --> 00:21:24.720 Same organized, calm, under pressure mind. He's communicating with dispatch, 340 00:21:25.039 --> 00:21:28.960 with other officers, relaying his position, just very calm, like 341 00:21:29.039 --> 00:21:32.559 he's reading the newspaper. So even at eighteen or nineteen 342 00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:36.880 years old, some of the company commanders saw this and said, 343 00:21:36.960 --> 00:21:39.920 you know, you're back here. You're a radio operator. You're 344 00:21:39.920 --> 00:21:41.319 not out in the field as much as we are. 345 00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:45.880 We want you out here with us. So they get 346 00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:49.960 him out. And first of all, corporals and sergeants were 347 00:21:50.160 --> 00:21:52.519 always the first ones in. They were very visible, even 348 00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:55.039 though they took their stripes off in battle. The enemy 349 00:21:55.119 --> 00:21:56.759 knew who was leading the charge because they were the 350 00:21:56.799 --> 00:22:00.119 first ones out of the fox worlds, etc. So they 351 00:22:00.119 --> 00:22:03.400 were losing corporals and sergeants quite a bit. So on 352 00:22:03.480 --> 00:22:08.599 this one particular battle, they were out on patrol the 353 00:22:08.680 --> 00:22:15.400 company and they got nighttime. They were setting up an ambush. 354 00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:18.079 They thought they'd get a small group of Vietnam coming, 355 00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:21.759 you know, passing through this trail intersection. 356 00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:22.519 And. 357 00:22:25.079 --> 00:22:28.400 They look in the distance at night and they see 358 00:22:28.599 --> 00:22:33.000 what looks like, you know, reeds reads waving in the wind, 359 00:22:34.039 --> 00:22:36.720 and it turns out to be a couple of companies 360 00:22:36.759 --> 00:22:41.200 of Vietnamese soldiers coming back from attacking a fort. So 361 00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:44.039 they tried to relay the message to the lead guy 362 00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:48.000 not to spring the ambush, because you know, there was 363 00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:50.200 like fifty of these guys and two hundred of them 364 00:22:50.359 --> 00:22:53.119 of the enemy. Well, they couldn't do it. He sprung 365 00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:56.440 the ambush. So that battle raged all night long. They 366 00:22:56.519 --> 00:23:00.960 got surrounded on nearly surrounded on three sides. They're running 367 00:23:01.000 --> 00:23:02.920 low on ammunition. There was just no way to bring 368 00:23:03.279 --> 00:23:07.839 a helicopter into replenished their ammo, or even take out 369 00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:13.359 the wounded. The order came down to fix bannets Jim. 370 00:23:13.799 --> 00:23:18.359 What happened does Jim? A medic got killed. Another medic 371 00:23:18.440 --> 00:23:21.599 went to take his place. At that exact moment RPG, 372 00:23:21.759 --> 00:23:27.079 a rocket propelled grenade exploded rating That medic absorbed the shock, 373 00:23:27.160 --> 00:23:30.880 saving Jim's life, killing him and two other guys. Jim 374 00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:35.759 got some shrapnel's throat, so he was laying there. He 375 00:23:35.839 --> 00:23:39.400 had a severe wound, bleeding to death, stuck his finger 376 00:23:39.759 --> 00:23:42.880 in his throat, still manning the radio. Though he's still 377 00:23:42.920 --> 00:23:48.279 working the radio, his company commander came over. Didn't think 378 00:23:48.319 --> 00:23:50.000 he was gonna make it, but knew there was nothing 379 00:23:50.039 --> 00:23:51.640 he could do about it, so he went back to 380 00:23:51.799 --> 00:23:55.880 his position, made sure the guys were still firing. Whoever 381 00:23:55.920 --> 00:23:59.799 had AMMO left, Jim tells it. And this isn't a 382 00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:06.759 lass we forget by Bull Meachum, the helicopter pilot Jim 383 00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:10.359 was just as he was passing out. He felt a 384 00:24:10.440 --> 00:24:13.039 guy lift him up and said time to go. Sarge 385 00:24:13.839 --> 00:24:17.599 threw him in a helicopter and carried him away. 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