1
00:00:19,519 --> 00:00:23,000
Speaker 1: Hello, Welcome. I am Kerrie Ann and you're listening to

2
00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,760
Seventh Sanctum. Thank you so much for joining us, and

3
00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:31,199
today as normal, I'm being joined with my co ghosts,

4
00:00:31,199 --> 00:00:37,000
my co host. It's not original, it's not original. Natalie,

5
00:00:37,039 --> 00:00:40,719
how are you, ghost? How are you?

6
00:00:41,719 --> 00:00:45,240
Speaker 2: I'm all right. I'm sort of confused because we're now

7
00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:47,719
in British summertime and there's light everywhere and I'm a

8
00:00:47,759 --> 00:00:50,520
Goth and I don't like it.

9
00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:53,200
Speaker 1: Well, I'm a Ginger and I don't like it for

10
00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:54,119
the same reasons.

11
00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:57,280
Speaker 2: I was like, it's so bright out here, I can't

12
00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:00,159
see anything. That's all light everywhere, and it's where to

13
00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:01,200
night timing on.

14
00:01:03,479 --> 00:01:06,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel that in my soyle Goths and Gingers alike.

15
00:01:09,239 --> 00:01:12,879
And this evening we'll being joined by Andy Mercer, who

16
00:01:13,079 --> 00:01:18,120
is the show's producer, who works, who's a big part

17
00:01:18,239 --> 00:01:20,760
of and I never want to get it wrong and

18
00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:25,920
so it's a big double negative there, but the Paranormal

19
00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:29,359
UK Radio network, So please tell us a little bit

20
00:01:29,359 --> 00:01:32,120
about you and yeah, and the part that you play

21
00:01:32,359 --> 00:01:34,560
to make Seventh Sanctum what it is today.

22
00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:37,319
Speaker 3: Blow when do I start? Yeah, I co run the

23
00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:40,560
whole network with ireland Mark, and we've been going for

24
00:01:41,079 --> 00:01:42,480
about ten years now. I think you've been doing this.

25
00:01:42,719 --> 00:01:44,000
I'm one of a few other shows as we'll have

26
00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:46,439
a regular show with a friend Steve Ward High Strangers

27
00:01:46,439 --> 00:01:48,200
Factor has been for a few years and now you

28
00:01:48,239 --> 00:01:50,079
guys came on board a couple of years ago now,

29
00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:52,840
I think, and I basically produce your show. I take

30
00:01:52,879 --> 00:01:55,519
this raw material, had a bit of music about to

31
00:01:55,599 --> 00:01:57,079
unt a little bit to get out on the network.

32
00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:59,040
So that's what I do for you guys, which is

33
00:01:59,439 --> 00:02:02,640
good fun. Enjoyed working on other people shows. It's easily

34
00:02:02,719 --> 00:02:03,400
working on your own.

35
00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:09,719
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And we've been working together now for I want

36
00:02:09,719 --> 00:02:16,680
to say, it's like six or seven years to investigations.

37
00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:15,560
Speaker 3: Easily, must be.

38
00:02:15,719 --> 00:02:19,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. I think I started this about ten, no

39
00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:22,919
more than that, about eleven years ago, and have passed

40
00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:27,840
across quite quickly through different radio shows at the time

41
00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:32,159
and investigations and things. And yeah, I think the first

42
00:02:32,199 --> 00:02:34,080
time we ever investigated I think it was at Covered

43
00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:34,439
and Hatch.

44
00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:35,680
Speaker 2: Oh, very likely.

45
00:02:35,719 --> 00:02:39,080
Speaker 3: I think we kind of first really met when Richard

46
00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:42,719
Clement started his own little station and in the parasearch

47
00:02:42,759 --> 00:02:44,400
thing about and again I was about ten years ago

48
00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:46,919
now it's absolutely flowing by and I think we did

49
00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:49,719
a couple of investigations after That's whe we've first sort of

50
00:02:49,719 --> 00:02:52,599
started talking and became part of your team for a while,

51
00:02:52,599 --> 00:02:54,840
which kind of went a bit strange. But I'm to

52
00:02:54,879 --> 00:02:56,280
talk about that not but yet I think it's a

53
00:02:56,319 --> 00:02:58,840
bit old. But yeah, so we've really stayed content ever since,

54
00:02:58,879 --> 00:03:01,039
even though I've now moved away from the land of

55
00:03:01,159 --> 00:03:03,879
Essex over in the West Country. Might as well quiet

56
00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:04,639
more peaceful here.

57
00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:09,159
Speaker 1: Yes, and we have an aged one bit myself.

58
00:03:09,759 --> 00:03:12,280
Speaker 3: Well, I don't know Fortunes is audio owning so that

59
00:03:12,439 --> 00:03:16,960
my lack of hair is not visible on camera now, So.

60
00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,960
Speaker 1: Okay, fair enough. So what are you so? I know

61
00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:27,439
that you have you have your publishing company now, so

62
00:03:27,479 --> 00:03:28,719
tell us a little bit about that.

63
00:03:29,439 --> 00:03:34,360
Speaker 3: Yes, I am Ninth Circle Press. It's published ocult esoteric books.

64
00:03:34,719 --> 00:03:37,039
We've just we I would say we, but really it's

65
00:03:37,039 --> 00:03:40,520
just me. I am, I am everything, the whole whole works.

66
00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:42,960
Just released our most recent book. I just said an

67
00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:45,360
hour again. It's one of these funny things you get

68
00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:47,680
this saying us our and we in this sort of

69
00:03:47,759 --> 00:03:51,120
publishing world, make your big company. But it's just me, me,

70
00:03:51,159 --> 00:03:53,159
and my writers obviously that we would be my other

71
00:03:53,199 --> 00:03:55,159
writer who at the third book of just published is

72
00:03:55,159 --> 00:04:00,800
about it's Judas as in biblical Judas and witchcraft. There's

73
00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:03,360
a connection between Judas and traditional witchcraft to do with

74
00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:06,560
the betrayal and the outsider, and Ian Chambers has written

75
00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:09,080
in this particular book which is very good. Indeed, he's

76
00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:11,719
best known for a book called The witch Compass, which

77
00:04:11,759 --> 00:04:14,439
is about judicial witchcraft, which came out via Llewellian a

78
00:04:14,479 --> 00:04:16,720
couple of years ago and sold very well, so with

79
00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:19,279
his going pretty well. So that's the third book I've released.

80
00:04:19,319 --> 00:04:21,560
The second one was with a friend mine, Richard Ward,

81
00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,800
who wrote about witchcraft and the occult in Essex, of course,

82
00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:26,199
where he and I are both from and where you

83
00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:29,079
guys are now Becausessius has got a very rich history

84
00:04:29,519 --> 00:04:32,160
to do with the emotion of witchcraft in the eighteen

85
00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:34,839
hundreds and into the more modern times, which maybe we'll

86
00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:37,199
talk about bit later. And the first book I published

87
00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:39,000
was my own book, which will probably take half the

88
00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:40,879
show to explain. It's a bit complex stuff to do

89
00:04:40,959 --> 00:04:43,480
with the dark side of the Kabbala, but it's not.

90
00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,879
It's thing called the c acra which is the old

91
00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:50,759
Jewish mystical version of evil, the origins of it, and

92
00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:54,920
it's been mixed up with the Kabbala, and the have

93
00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:56,839
been mixed together by a lot of more modern writers.

94
00:04:56,920 --> 00:05:00,560
My book shows the different concepts, different ideas. So that's

95
00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:02,720
the three that have been out from Ninth Cysical Press

96
00:05:02,759 --> 00:05:05,279
so far. It was something I always wanted to do

97
00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:07,600
for years. I must have been since the early twenty

98
00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,879
tens the idea of getting the published myself. But as

99
00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:13,319
you know, I am what it was psych a therapist

100
00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:14,800
by trade. It was always a case that women that

101
00:05:14,879 --> 00:05:17,439
was a bit quiet with clients. I think, let's looking

102
00:05:17,399 --> 00:05:19,959
at the publishing, so let's let's develop that plan. And

103
00:05:20,079 --> 00:05:22,199
of course I get busier again with work and I

104
00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:24,439
kind of forget about it. It kind of just drifts

105
00:05:24,439 --> 00:05:27,120
off to one side. But after nearly twenty years as

106
00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:30,399
a therapist, we decided to relocate, say from Essics to

107
00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:32,759
the West Country. So I've dropped most of my clients.

108
00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,439
I've you know, finished them off. They've worked through stocks.

109
00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:36,879
It takes a word to sell a house and move,

110
00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:38,839
so I was able to have time to sort of

111
00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:41,199
finish their therapy, but a few have stayed with me,

112
00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:42,879
you can continue on theline. So I do work a

113
00:05:42,879 --> 00:05:45,199
bit as a therapist now, but the idea was to

114
00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,480
move away to then focus on starting this publishing company.

115
00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:52,160
So it happened, say twenty twenty three, my first book

116
00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:53,920
came out, and so far to one book a year,

117
00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:57,639
so far three four, twenty five. But stepping things up now,

118
00:05:57,720 --> 00:05:59,879
got a couple of books in the pipeline that become

119
00:06:00,079 --> 00:06:01,759
out later on this year. We're getting it all to

120
00:06:01,759 --> 00:06:04,959
do with witchcraft and the occult and those sorts of things.

121
00:06:04,959 --> 00:06:08,319
That's very much the focus of Ninth Circle Press, if

122
00:06:08,399 --> 00:06:10,519
it was interesting. The reason why it's called Ninth Circle

123
00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,040
is I'm very much a fan of Dante Dante Aligary,

124
00:06:13,079 --> 00:06:16,079
who was an Italian poet from the thirteen hundreds. I

125
00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:19,000
wrote the Divine Comedy, and the first part is called Inferno,

126
00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:22,920
which is basically his journey into Hell, and the Ninth

127
00:06:22,959 --> 00:06:25,519
Circle is the deepest level of hell where Satan himself

128
00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:27,480
is frozen in ice and he has to try and

129
00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:30,600
escape from there. So that was where the name Ninth

130
00:06:30,639 --> 00:06:34,160
Circle Press name has come from. Which one of those

131
00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:35,439
funny things when you try and think, I got to

132
00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:37,800
call yourself as a publican company, All sorts of names

133
00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:40,040
and ideas bounced around and think of this idea of

134
00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:42,279
that idea, Never, I haven't seen it quite fit. And

135
00:06:42,399 --> 00:06:44,519
it just happened on the idea of the ninth circle,

136
00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:47,279
and it just seems to already work. It's very catchy,

137
00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:49,360
it easy to remember. So I stuck with that.

138
00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:53,800
Speaker 2: I was like, happened Sanctum, wasn't it? Because I said

139
00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:56,759
to Kerry, why have you picked the names Sanctum issues? Like,

140
00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:58,079
oh no, it sounded good.

141
00:06:59,199 --> 00:07:01,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, these things you don't.

142
00:07:01,399 --> 00:07:06,360
Speaker 2: They It's very dramatic, though, the ninth Circle to like

143
00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:12,839
go right there into the heart of darkness? Literally, what

144
00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:15,600
got you interested in? Do you study the Kabbala? Then?

145
00:07:16,079 --> 00:07:18,199
With you writing a book on it? Because or was

146
00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:21,879
it just a curiosity thing that got you interested in?

147
00:07:23,079 --> 00:07:25,480
Speaker 3: I very much have been a long standing interest in

148
00:07:25,519 --> 00:07:28,439
the occult, generally a different various topics and aspects of

149
00:07:29,959 --> 00:07:32,839
I suppose I could kept it an odd story, which

150
00:07:32,959 --> 00:07:36,560
is kind of encapsulates things. Really. When I was a

151
00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:38,759
bit interested in the occulture is on the mid teens,

152
00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,040
but it kind of sort of dropped away for a

153
00:07:41,079 --> 00:07:43,959
while until my early twenties, when one particular afternoon, I

154
00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:47,240
was working in London the Financial Physics Exchange, which is

155
00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:49,600
like business and nrble but go out for a walk

156
00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:53,120
and had a funny dream the night before which I

157
00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:57,639
remembered seeing. This dream was literally physical spheres, metal spheres

158
00:07:57,639 --> 00:08:00,639
with metal paths connect them together in the air. I

159
00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,720
was following walking around them. Now I knew about the Cabala,

160
00:08:03,759 --> 00:08:05,240
I have to say, was something I'd heard of before,

161
00:08:05,279 --> 00:08:07,319
but I remember that in dream, and I remember walking

162
00:08:07,319 --> 00:08:09,800
into a bookshop in London and there was a copy

163
00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:13,160
of Dion Fortune's Mystical Cabbala, and that particular edition the

164
00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:17,000
cover was of silver spheres of parking into them together. Therefore,

165
00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:18,959
I needed to get back into this stuff, and I

166
00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:20,680
kind of dropped out of it because I was sort

167
00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:22,439
of working in the city and I thought, no, I

168
00:08:22,439 --> 00:08:23,959
need to get back into the occult stuff, and that

169
00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:28,120
one kind of inspired the interest. But my interest in

170
00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:30,600
the occult was all sorts of different veins in different pathways,

171
00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:33,240
but the Cabbala is certainly one of them, and got

172
00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:35,600
very deeply into that and the Golden Dawn, which is

173
00:08:35,639 --> 00:08:38,440
all based around cabalistic material so it got a bit

174
00:08:38,519 --> 00:08:42,080
up from there. But what I was mentioned just now

175
00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:43,720
was very much aware of the fact that a lot

176
00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:45,919
of modern writers write about think called the clipoff, which

177
00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:48,120
is this negative side of the Cabbala, which I knew about,

178
00:08:48,519 --> 00:08:51,440
and they often used the term situacra as in interchangeable

179
00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:54,240
between the two. And I was quite intrigued by this

180
00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:57,440
because trying to find the origins of the clip off

181
00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:00,360
was quite difficult. The Cabbala has been around since about

182
00:09:00,399 --> 00:09:02,639
the third century a d. But it wasn't to the

183
00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:05,000
tenth century they think all the Zohar was written, which

184
00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:07,559
is his twenty two volumes, which kept it the whole

185
00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:11,440
idea what the Kabbala's about, and reading the verses that

186
00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:14,320
are available at the time. The translations were brilliant, and

187
00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:15,960
then a new one came out. They gave him out

188
00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:19,799
ten twelve years ago long, and they're actually about fifteen

189
00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:22,399
years ago. A guy called Professor Daniel Match did a

190
00:09:22,399 --> 00:09:26,399
new translation of the Zoha, and it's much more accurate,

191
00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:29,559
and unlike the previous versions. He didn't need anything out,

192
00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:31,639
even stuff that didn't really make a lot of sense.

193
00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:34,480
He still was in it. And it starts seeing these

194
00:09:34,519 --> 00:09:37,840
references to the Citrakra, the other side, which is like

195
00:09:37,919 --> 00:09:40,200
the other side, opposite of good, and I thought, this

196
00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:42,120
is not the same as the kabala at all. This

197
00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:45,320
is something quite different to the clip off. And realizing

198
00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:48,840
there was no origins to the modern clipoff that you

199
00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:51,320
could really follow, but there was his situ ka've been

200
00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:54,559
on a lot longer, so that really inspub me just

201
00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:56,440
start doing a lot of research and digging into stuff.

202
00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:58,440
So I read quite a lot of the zoo and

203
00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:01,120
Zoa is huge, but I've a period of back three

204
00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:03,039
or four years I was working on this particular the book,

205
00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:04,720
and just the more I dug into, the deeper I got,

206
00:10:04,759 --> 00:10:07,519
I thought, no, this is something different. Modern writers are

207
00:10:07,639 --> 00:10:12,120
choosing to use these two terms citiacra and clip off interchangeably,

208
00:10:12,159 --> 00:10:14,320
but they're not the same thing. They're actually quite different.

209
00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:16,600
And I think it's time to someone to really write

210
00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:18,240
a book and say, look, this is a different thing,

211
00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:20,159
which is what my book was about.

212
00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:23,799
Speaker 2: Wow, it's like I'm finding that quite a lot, just

213
00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:28,360
like I mean, I'm aware of classical texts and things,

214
00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:30,519
but there's there's a limit to my understanding of it.

215
00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:32,679
But I've been listening to a lot of different podcasts

216
00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:36,399
with like people that study the classical era, you know,

217
00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:40,639
and everything. And he was saying that if you don't

218
00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:43,720
speak or learn original Greek and you read the text

219
00:10:43,759 --> 00:10:47,879
in original Greek, you miss so much nuance in it.

220
00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:51,519
Because he one particular guy I was listening to, was

221
00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:53,720
saying about like the way we translate things, and he

222
00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:57,000
was like, certain languages have less words in them than others,

223
00:10:57,080 --> 00:10:59,639
and he says, ancient Greek has so many words that

224
00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:03,480
the new wants are more important because they have more words.

225
00:11:03,519 --> 00:11:06,000
And when you reduce it down to a language with

226
00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:09,360
less words in it, a lot of the meaning gets lost.

227
00:11:09,519 --> 00:11:14,360
And I mean he was translating Garland and he ended

228
00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:19,039
up coming from Garland around to I can't remember how

229
00:11:19,039 --> 00:11:21,039
he related it back to the Bible and things, so

230
00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:23,200
I mean I was only just learning about it because

231
00:11:23,399 --> 00:11:26,159
he was saying that the like say, everybody tends to

232
00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:28,960
use a lot of terms interchangeably, or they choose the

233
00:11:29,039 --> 00:11:33,120
popular meaning of a term that that also alters the

234
00:11:33,159 --> 00:11:36,159
meaning of what you're reading. And it's like so like

235
00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,120
you say, when you have a a with a lot

236
00:11:39,159 --> 00:11:41,159
of modern writers are quite guilty of it because they

237
00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:44,799
tend to use text or already translated rather than retranslating

238
00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:48,360
it themselves, so they miss and obviously the people that

239
00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:50,720
translated it if they don't know what they're talking about either,

240
00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:54,159
you know. I mean, sometimes that's better because you translate

241
00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:57,240
it perhaps more literally, but when you've got a contextual meaning.

242
00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:03,679
I was reading about the Karli, the non Dualshiva tantra stuff,

243
00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:06,480
and he was saying that all the metaphor that's in

244
00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:10,080
it because the culture at the time was quite prudish,

245
00:12:10,159 --> 00:12:12,039
so they had to kind of hide a lot of

246
00:12:12,039 --> 00:12:13,960
what they were trying to explain in metaphor. And if

247
00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:18,120
you don't understand that the metaphor or what they or

248
00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:21,200
why they say the things they do, the cultural context

249
00:12:21,279 --> 00:12:24,120
of it, again, you lose the meaning. So you get

250
00:12:24,159 --> 00:12:26,919
this literal picture and you think, oh, it's just this,

251
00:12:26,919 --> 00:12:29,240
this and this, and he says, well, actually that means that,

252
00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:31,279
that means that this could mean that, and the reason

253
00:12:31,279 --> 00:12:34,000
why they did that is because nobody liked this, and

254
00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:36,360
so you know, it's sort of and it's really sort

255
00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:41,039
of like made me question a lot of older like say,

256
00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:43,320
a lot of the older texts and the older religions

257
00:12:44,279 --> 00:12:46,759
and the context of the culture they were in at

258
00:12:46,759 --> 00:12:49,399
the time as well. So their meaning of it might

259
00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,559
be different to our current understanding because we're looking at

260
00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:54,720
it in a modern lens as well.

261
00:12:55,960 --> 00:13:00,639
Speaker 3: Particularly important about ten translation of the Zone, because it

262
00:13:00,879 --> 00:13:03,200
was designed to be as accurate as possible. I mean,

263
00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:05,279
if you said, some of this stuff won't make sense,

264
00:13:05,279 --> 00:13:07,279
but this is literally what it says, you know. That's

265
00:13:07,279 --> 00:13:10,840
the closest you get into exact English. And the previous

266
00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:14,200
two translations, the Sorencino was done in the nineteen twenty

267
00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,519
odd and then there's the Kabbala Center version and the

268
00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,120
nineties I think it was. The Gobala Center version is

269
00:13:20,279 --> 00:13:23,039
just dreadful, it really is. They're putting to push their

270
00:13:23,039 --> 00:13:25,200
own agenda very much so, and you can sometimes you

271
00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:28,039
can't tell what's the actual translation and what's actually their notes.

272
00:13:28,039 --> 00:13:31,080
They're kind of intermingled them. Was Matt's is very much separate.

273
00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:32,799
I mean some of the pages in the Math edition

274
00:13:32,919 --> 00:13:35,039
it's physically quite large, and about that much of the

275
00:13:35,159 --> 00:13:38,120
Zohar text and that much explanation underneath, which is like

276
00:13:38,159 --> 00:13:40,399
three or four times the size and the explanation of

277
00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:43,200
a small piece of text. It's quite crazy, but it's

278
00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:46,480
absolutely fascinting because there's also one particular book of the

279
00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:49,159
zohog Azo was in number of books together. They left

280
00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,600
out the other two translations have left out, and that's

281
00:13:51,639 --> 00:13:54,759
the one that really talks about the Situa Acra. So

282
00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:56,919
you can kind of forgive some of other writers from

283
00:13:56,919 --> 00:13:58,879
the eighties and nineties who didn't have access as good

284
00:13:58,879 --> 00:14:01,919
a quality translation as is now, especially as they didn't

285
00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:04,919
bother translating this particular chapter because it is very strange,

286
00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:06,879
but it is. It's the key element of what the

287
00:14:06,919 --> 00:14:10,039
City Rogue is actually about is in that missing chapter.

288
00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:15,960
Speaker 2: So everything get obscure, doesn't it. It's like, you know,

289
00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:18,639
because like like you say, even if it doesn't make

290
00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,799
sense to most people, it may make sense to somebody,

291
00:14:22,759 --> 00:14:24,840
you know. You know, very often it's like with the

292
00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:29,919
metaphorical stuff, it's like when you're immersed in the thing itself,

293
00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:33,480
these metaphors suddenly make sense, you know, like when you're

294
00:14:33,519 --> 00:14:37,120
actively practicing, the way you describe things would change. So

295
00:14:37,159 --> 00:14:39,039
it's like, just because it doesn't make sense doesn't mean

296
00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:41,600
it shouldn't be translated. So it's interesting the way that

297
00:14:41,639 --> 00:14:43,919
they just sort of like, well, this is nonsense, we're

298
00:14:43,919 --> 00:14:46,960
not going to put it in. And yet it's classed

299
00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:49,399
as a book, so it must have some importance to

300
00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:50,080
be in there.

301
00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:52,360
Speaker 3: Absolutely why they bother put in the first place if

302
00:14:52,399 --> 00:14:54,120
we didn't think it mattered that that's very much the

303
00:14:54,159 --> 00:14:57,279
problem the stuff was. It didn't make a huge difference.

304
00:14:57,679 --> 00:15:00,639
But and a lot of writers do tend to pick

305
00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:02,279
up a thread or a trend and will follow the

306
00:15:02,279 --> 00:15:05,559
same pattern of thinking without really exploring exactly what it

307
00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,320
meant or it came. What I discovered was you have

308
00:15:08,759 --> 00:15:11,279
the traditional definition of the ten spheres of the Kabara,

309
00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:13,360
the tree of life, and they are written to say,

310
00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:15,799
the tenth eleth century, and are quite clear what they are.

311
00:15:16,159 --> 00:15:17,679
But when you look at the clip off, which is

312
00:15:17,679 --> 00:15:21,320
this other opposite version, there's nothing until about the eighteen hundreds.

313
00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:23,360
I mean, there's a chap in the sixteen hundreds whose

314
00:15:23,399 --> 00:15:25,840
name has just escaped me completely. For a second Jewish

315
00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:30,480
mystic who wrote about the a version of the Zohar,

316
00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:33,240
and his name has just gone out my head completely.

317
00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:41,679
Just very annoying. Anyway, we're about that, but there was

318
00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:45,000
this section that kind of talks about the darker side

319
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,000
of the cabana. The clipoff clip off shells is what

320
00:15:48,039 --> 00:15:51,919
you referred to as but the actual ten names of

321
00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,440
the clip off weren't really written about until there's the

322
00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,600
eighteen hundreds, so it's relatively modern. Still nothing like as

323
00:15:57,639 --> 00:16:00,279
old as the Zohar is with the Kabara and say

324
00:16:00,399 --> 00:16:01,600
the Situarkra stuff in there.

325
00:16:01,639 --> 00:16:05,200
Speaker 2: So yeah, that's curious. Do you do you find like

326
00:16:05,279 --> 00:16:08,559
a significant difference between the two dark side things and

327
00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,519
as in like ones completely erroneous or are they just

328
00:16:11,799 --> 00:16:15,039
different shades of a similar idea, very.

329
00:16:14,879 --> 00:16:19,120
Speaker 3: Different ideas, very different ideas The whole concept is completely different.

330
00:16:19,759 --> 00:16:22,879
None of these forces in the citual Oka emerge from it.

331
00:16:23,039 --> 00:16:25,440
They don't come out. They pull you into those realms

332
00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:28,080
with crissical ideas or demons as they come out and

333
00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:30,120
get you. They don't in the Situarka at all. It's

334
00:16:30,159 --> 00:16:32,320
what used to place you fall into. It reminded me

335
00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:34,759
a little bit of exploring a Dante's Inferno. You have

336
00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:36,799
to go through these realms, and that's what really struck

337
00:16:36,799 --> 00:16:39,120
me when I actually read this, almost like a practical

338
00:16:39,559 --> 00:16:42,559
exploration of the realms of the siu Akra. There as

339
00:16:42,559 --> 00:16:45,000
seven of them. There's seven of the seven levels you

340
00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:47,919
work through, and they are complex in them and individually

341
00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:50,159
complex in their own right, there's seven of them, and

342
00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:52,320
it's all quite different to what's in the clip off

343
00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:53,720
with very different ideas.

344
00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:56,279
Speaker 2: I was going to say, that's a really interesting idea

345
00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:00,120
that you get pulled into something, because it's like I

346
00:17:00,159 --> 00:17:02,919
tend to find that sometimes with the healing work. It's

347
00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:05,880
like you you'll you'll just end up sort of trying

348
00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:08,119
to stay in one place and you just sort of

349
00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:13,559
end up sometimes somewhere else. Yeah, it's different, and you

350
00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:16,519
just your perceptions are different. Everything's different, and you're just like,

351
00:17:16,559 --> 00:17:18,839
wait a minute, things aren't working the way they normally

352
00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:21,480
work here, what's going on? And it's only one you

353
00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:23,799
sort of figure that out that you can pull yourself

354
00:17:23,839 --> 00:17:27,680
out of it. So that's that's quite an interesting concept

355
00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:31,279
because yeah, because like you say, did yeah, I would

356
00:17:31,279 --> 00:17:33,559
probably go both ways, wouldn't it. In one way, it's

357
00:17:33,599 --> 00:17:36,640
like the sort of the demonic energy type is trying

358
00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:38,680
to come out, but it's also trying to pull you

359
00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:39,359
in at this you.

360
00:17:39,319 --> 00:17:43,240
Speaker 3: Know, Yeah, it's into their trap. Basically, if you commit

361
00:17:43,279 --> 00:17:45,680
the right kind of seen your fall into their trap,

362
00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,319
you're then dragged into that realm. You can't it doesn't

363
00:17:48,319 --> 00:17:50,119
come looking for you just get sucked into it you

364
00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:51,160
can know 'escape.

365
00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:55,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, quite quite. That's an interesting concept, actually, I think

366
00:17:55,759 --> 00:17:59,240
that could be more. That could explain some things a

367
00:17:59,279 --> 00:18:04,720
lot more, particularly than the the concept of sort of

368
00:18:04,759 --> 00:18:07,400
like we're all fundamentally good and all we have to

369
00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:10,000
do is the right thing. But if you are in

370
00:18:10,039 --> 00:18:15,839
a different perceptual realm, that's not necessarily the case, because

371
00:18:16,039 --> 00:18:18,960
it would tangte you and change you, and the landscape

372
00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:20,920
would be different and the way you navigate it would

373
00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:22,880
be different. So in order to come out of it,

374
00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:27,960
you have to not be navigating it in that manner, because.

375
00:18:27,799 --> 00:18:30,240
Speaker 3: It comes back to the basic thing with Western religion.

376
00:18:30,279 --> 00:18:32,559
We are fundamentally bad, we are of sin, you know,

377
00:18:32,759 --> 00:18:35,160
and we are to redeem ourselves in God's eyes. If

378
00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:37,039
you go to the east of the Hinduism, for example,

379
00:18:37,039 --> 00:18:39,880
which a brief mention with Karli, your divine and it's

380
00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,240
your mission is to find your way to the divine,

381
00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:44,480
because your divine already is to realize what you already are.

382
00:18:44,519 --> 00:18:48,079
So there's a fundamental difference there. And suddenly some early

383
00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:50,359
Judaism had them more of an idea like that that

384
00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:52,160
you'll find your way back to the God, back to

385
00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:55,319
God is the journal rather than being of sin, of

386
00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:59,240
sin stuff really Christianity that comes really from there. So

387
00:18:59,279 --> 00:19:01,839
there is often you often hear this either like you

388
00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,400
Christian ideas, and that's much nonsense. They're not the same ideas.

389
00:19:05,799 --> 00:19:07,799
There's a modern term we've come up with, but they

390
00:19:07,799 --> 00:19:08,640
are quite different.

391
00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:12,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, I know, that's interesting because it's it's sort of like,

392
00:19:13,519 --> 00:19:15,640
you know, it's sort of like listening to this classical

393
00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:18,559
guy talking about like the way he translated Christianity and

394
00:19:18,599 --> 00:19:21,920
you just suddenly realize there is not a Christianity.

395
00:19:23,039 --> 00:19:27,079
Speaker 2: It's all interpretation, almost all of it. And it's like

396
00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:30,000
even when you read what Jesus said and did, there's

397
00:19:30,039 --> 00:19:33,400
almost no information there on what Jesus said or did

398
00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:36,119
you know or how he did it is. So it's

399
00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:39,160
sort of like so all of it's interpretation, and it's

400
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,799
based upon like you say, like sin. You know, there's

401
00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:44,519
various different interpretations of what sin even is.

402
00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:47,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I know.

403
00:19:47,559 --> 00:19:50,079
Speaker 2: It's it's really quite It's the first time in a

404
00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:52,240
long time where it started to hurt my brain and

405
00:19:52,279 --> 00:19:57,880
I've had to actually concentrate on something like that to it,

406
00:19:58,039 --> 00:20:03,319
and I was just like, oh, it's already.

407
00:20:02,279 --> 00:20:04,000
Speaker 3: You always have the same problem. Of course, it's written

408
00:20:04,079 --> 00:20:06,720
in the bibulous of in Arabaic, so it's a completely

409
00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:10,000
different submitic language. So it's hard to translate directly from

410
00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,880
non submitted from non submitted language as a whole sense

411
00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:17,960
of meaning, it's completely lost. Deeming that problem, particularly the Christianity.

412
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,400
You've gone from Aramaic into Greek, from Greek into Latin,

413
00:20:20,519 --> 00:20:23,400
Latin into English, and so that's quite a journey and

414
00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,119
quite different languages. He's same with the Greek particularly, you know,

415
00:20:26,559 --> 00:20:28,359
so there's always that problem of trying to get their

416
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,519
direct translations of the fact that as Doan'tel, Mack is

417
00:20:31,519 --> 00:20:33,440
obviously an expert in the Hebrew, you know, he knows

418
00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:35,880
it intimately. So he was able to give a first

419
00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:39,200
person translation which was a very good indeed.

420
00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:42,319
Speaker 2: Oh no, that's really cool, yeah, because it was like

421
00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:44,200
there was something I read a little while about that

422
00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:49,000
said that different languages shape the way you perceive the world.

423
00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,839
So the way language is structured alters the way you

424
00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,440
think and see the world around you. And that's why

425
00:20:55,559 --> 00:20:57,839
I mean, I think in the article they were arguing for,

426
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:01,559
you know, having more to pull languages so that it

427
00:21:01,559 --> 00:21:05,119
would open your mind up because then the different different

428
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:07,559
ways of sort of structuring it alters the way you

429
00:21:07,599 --> 00:21:09,839
look at the world. And it's like even that on

430
00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,079
its own is a mind blowing concept, which is you

431
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:16,720
just it's.

432
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:18,400
Speaker 3: My degree is in philosophy, so we've abvious we talked

433
00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:20,279
about all different ways of view in the world and

434
00:21:20,279 --> 00:21:22,519
how you know, the way you're understanding of the world

435
00:21:22,559 --> 00:21:25,039
is structure by how you express yourself as well. The

436
00:21:25,039 --> 00:21:27,480
meaning you have behind what you say you know will

437
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:29,480
find me alter the how you view reality.

438
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:35,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's it's quite an interesting concept. It's it's

439
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:40,359
very very thought provoking when you actually really start to understand. Yes,

440
00:21:41,079 --> 00:21:43,920
each thing, yeah, especially throughout history, that each thing you

441
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:47,519
read throughout history has layers on it. Either it's like say,

442
00:21:47,599 --> 00:21:51,519
unless you can read original source material, but even then,

443
00:21:51,559 --> 00:21:55,920
a lot of that's not original, you.

444
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,640
Speaker 3: Know, it is speak of Christianity. The First Testament was

445
00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:01,359
the First Gospels. It more one hundred years after it's

446
00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:03,839
supposed to have lived, so nobody was at the time

447
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,880
wrote about him apart from there are some Hebrew writings

448
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,039
about this particular person, but it was one of many

449
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:12,759
massias that were going around at the time. Was like

450
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:15,599
your Messiah, and there's so many of them at the time.

451
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:19,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, because it wasn't a specific term for a specific person,

452
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,440
was it. It was a generalized It was a generalized

453
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:24,880
sort of title I think at the time, wasn't it.

454
00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:27,680
So it's like, you know, again, that's a context we

455
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:33,279
don't get taught and it's sort of yeah, no, it's

456
00:22:33,319 --> 00:22:38,400
it is interesting, probably sort of very deep mindfield to

457
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,599
fall into, though, because there's so much going on at

458
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,200
those periods of time, and like you say, to understand

459
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,400
the context, it is just like you could take years

460
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:48,720
just on each section.

461
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:52,200
Speaker 3: The early Christians were convinced that Jesus were back over

462
00:22:52,279 --> 00:22:55,880
the next hundred years two thousand years ago. Now you know,

463
00:22:56,079 --> 00:22:56,640
he's a bit like.

464
00:22:59,079 --> 00:23:01,440
Speaker 2: Back and gone again. You know, you just stood a

465
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:03,480
little wrecky and was like, yeah, I think I wait.

466
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,640
Speaker 1: He ended quite quietly and left quite quietly at the

467
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:13,680
same time, isn't it Jesus center to chat? Jesus left

468
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:19,559
the chat quite abruptly. So I know that you said

469
00:23:19,559 --> 00:23:26,119
that you made that change from Essex to Somerset, isn't it. Yes,

470
00:23:27,039 --> 00:23:29,079
there's been a few people that have moved to Somerset. Actually,

471
00:23:29,079 --> 00:23:31,200
when I'm thinking about some of the paranorl people that

472
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:34,559
we kind of worked with. But I know that a

473
00:23:34,559 --> 00:23:37,559
lot of the conversations that we'd had previously was around

474
00:23:37,599 --> 00:23:40,039
the witchcraft that was in Essex and the kind of

475
00:23:40,079 --> 00:23:43,039
the historical links that we have. In particular we spoke.

476
00:23:43,799 --> 00:23:44,920
I know that when I used to talk to you

477
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,759
about you before, we would speak about James Murrell the

478
00:23:47,799 --> 00:23:51,359
cunning man. We used to yes, and at the same

479
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,000
era we had Sarah Moore who was the sea witch

480
00:23:54,039 --> 00:23:58,519
as well. So what I'm wondering is, since being where

481
00:23:58,559 --> 00:24:00,960
you are now in Somerset, is there any kind of

482
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:06,359
folklore witchcraft stories that have kind of grabbed your attention

483
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:08,799
in the same way and James Murell Wance did.

484
00:24:09,079 --> 00:24:12,319
Speaker 3: Well, he does, Oh because I say absolutely at the moment,

485
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:14,480
No not, someone said, because I'm actually working on a

486
00:24:14,519 --> 00:24:16,400
book that is going to work on the whole notion

487
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,920
of George picking Gill and James Murrell identifying that James

488
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:21,599
Mrrall is a real cunning man of Essex and picking

489
00:24:21,599 --> 00:24:23,640
girls can be nonsense. And so I've been working on

490
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,680
for a while now. It's gathering together all the documents

491
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,519
and information that I can demonstrate the reality of James

492
00:24:30,599 --> 00:24:33,519
Mrrall being the real cunning man, the real magician, real

493
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:36,759
male witch and George picking Gill is nothing other than

494
00:24:36,759 --> 00:24:40,119
a modern invention created by a called Eric Mabel in

495
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:42,519
the sixties, and so many people have jumped on the

496
00:24:42,559 --> 00:24:45,799
band are believe in that picking Gill was this amazing

497
00:24:45,839 --> 00:24:49,119
wizard person. He wasn't the man was. Rachel lived to

498
00:24:49,279 --> 00:24:52,960
over ninety and that's it. He's claim to fame until

499
00:24:53,039 --> 00:24:55,880
say nineteen sixty, where for some reason Eric Maple, who

500
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,759
hald have really written about Murrell, had main clear Murrall

501
00:24:58,839 --> 00:25:01,599
was this cunning man, so he decided to change his

502
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:05,119
story really and claim that George picking Gill was with

503
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,079
this grand wizard that was the master of all these

504
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:11,279
covered in Canudon and it's just nonsense. There's no evidence

505
00:25:11,319 --> 00:25:14,319
for it. Look any of the books published before nineteen

506
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:17,440
sixty that writes about witchcraft and magic in Essex, the

507
00:25:17,519 --> 00:25:20,519
only person they ever mentioned is James Murrell, going back

508
00:25:20,519 --> 00:25:22,440
to the eighteen hundreds when he was still alive writing

509
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:26,400
about him. There's not a word about this. There's there's

510
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,960
a chap pose name against one of those data my

511
00:25:29,039 --> 00:25:32,440
memories going names escaping me. But he wrote the History

512
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,440
of the Rochford Hundred, which is actually multiple volume set

513
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,640
of all the different reasons of South End based around

514
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,440
the South End, and he wrote about Canudon another word

515
00:25:41,519 --> 00:25:44,680
about picking Gill, not a word, but he writes about

516
00:25:44,759 --> 00:25:48,319
Murrell in Hadley where Mrrell lived. So it's you know,

517
00:25:48,319 --> 00:25:51,519
it's it's interesting this one person has really created this

518
00:25:51,559 --> 00:25:53,480
mythology and now there's a run with it you were

519
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:55,640
talking about before. Really, you know, you're taking board as

520
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:59,039
particular ideas somehow being gospel, and people run with it.

521
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:01,640
You know. It's I think more and more people are

522
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,000
recognizing there is something not quite right, but it's only

523
00:26:04,039 --> 00:26:06,559
in America. They're still very much big on these George

524
00:26:06,599 --> 00:26:10,279
picking Gill being this mysterious, powerful magician character. And it

525
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:12,319
is to say it's been a plan for a while

526
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,519
to put this book together, which is to say fairy

527
00:26:14,559 --> 00:26:16,519
short ies say from me about the history, but it's

528
00:26:16,559 --> 00:26:19,400
bringing all the information together to demonstrate that George picking

529
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:23,519
Gill was a modern myth largely invented by Eric Maple,

530
00:26:23,599 --> 00:26:26,920
whereas James Murrell from that fifty years before is the

531
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:28,799
real deal. And the funny thing is you read some

532
00:26:28,839 --> 00:26:30,839
of the stuff contributor to Morrell's life for what he

533
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,559
actually did, and then read what Marles supposed to have done.

534
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,559
It's the same thing. So he's transposed to one person

535
00:26:36,599 --> 00:26:39,400
to the other again. Forty Maple died years ago, so

536
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:40,599
I know I to find out why he did what

537
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,319
he did. But it's really annoying and frustrating that he's

538
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:47,039
done this. And because another writer really picked up on

539
00:26:47,079 --> 00:26:52,079
the idea who called himself Lou and his real name

540
00:26:52,839 --> 00:26:54,799
data and names of us skip me completely, but he

541
00:26:54,799 --> 00:26:57,720
wrote about it in the nineteen eighties and he massively

542
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,319
expanded upon the stories about what picking you're supposed to

543
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:04,480
have done, and it's just nonsense, really, it's just it's

544
00:27:04,519 --> 00:27:06,759
just made up fiction. And there as an American writer

545
00:27:06,839 --> 00:27:08,799
who wrote a little bit later on you then picked

546
00:27:08,839 --> 00:27:10,640
up the back and even further, and it was just

547
00:27:10,759 --> 00:27:13,480
crazy that this guy was saying, we thought these massive rituals,

548
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,920
and you got the Lou claiman that picking your influence

549
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,720
people Alista Crowley and Joe Garl and the founder of

550
00:27:19,799 --> 00:27:22,680
Wicker saying that he actually wrote all these magical rituals

551
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,519
for them. But when you read Picking his actual life,

552
00:27:25,519 --> 00:27:28,440
when he comes to his mascificate, he signs of an X.

553
00:27:28,599 --> 00:27:31,640
He can't him write. He's supposed to these amazing rituals,

554
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:33,480
but he can't actually write, so it's like it just

555
00:27:33,599 --> 00:27:36,440
doesn't add up. But it's got very much in this

556
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:38,519
sort of the modern psyche that George Pinking is this

557
00:27:38,559 --> 00:27:41,400
amazing witch from Essex who's really about alfums terrble and

558
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:46,599
always do these strange things, and it's like it's just rubbish.

559
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:48,799
Speaker 1: And I think as well some of the conversations that

560
00:27:48,839 --> 00:27:51,440
we had at the time was very similar, because I

561
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:53,960
think around about the same time, that's when I was

562
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,599
doing some research around Sarah Moore, and what I found

563
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,759
quite interesting was they kind of they coexist or they existed,

564
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,519
found about the same era. And what I found quite

565
00:28:02,519 --> 00:28:06,000
interesting was the differential kind of the way that Sarah

566
00:28:06,039 --> 00:28:10,279
Moore was received by their community in comparison to James

567
00:28:10,319 --> 00:28:14,319
Murraw as well, with a distinctive wicked witch kind of

568
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:16,720
persona that was given to Sarah Moore as opposed to

569
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,240
the cunning man you know, James Murrell, And I found

570
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,480
that quite interesting. Do you what is your perception on

571
00:28:22,519 --> 00:28:27,200
that kind of yeah that yeah, yeah, view on both

572
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:29,079
of those characters, well.

573
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 3: More has been largely forgotten. Really, I mean, your research

574
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,480
were the best rents over about it. It's so little

575
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,240
actually written. It seems it's been just another witch that

576
00:28:37,319 --> 00:28:40,079
kind of nonsense that goes around. And what you've done

577
00:28:40,079 --> 00:28:42,359
there is really good. I mean it is. I think

578
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:43,720
you might have to broier research in.

579
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 1: My book, you know, I know, absolutely, yeah, yeah.

580
00:28:50,359 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 3: So Murrell was seeing more as somebody would fight against witchcraft.

581
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:55,279
He was someone who'd turn to as a honeyman who

582
00:28:55,279 --> 00:28:57,599
battle against which is his One of the little tricks

583
00:28:57,680 --> 00:28:59,440
was to create a called the Witch's bottle, which is

584
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:01,079
not the same as which is a bottle of history.

585
00:29:01,119 --> 00:29:03,559
He would get a metal bottle made up and put

586
00:29:03,599 --> 00:29:05,799
various bits and pieces in it a link to the witch,

587
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,680
and he put it on the fire and it was

588
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:10,559
starting to make a noise and it was like whistling,

589
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,799
so obviously it's boarding inside. And the idea was that

590
00:29:14,839 --> 00:29:16,319
was the witch in pain and suffering. And there have

591
00:29:16,359 --> 00:29:19,440
been stories of suddenly being a on his door and

592
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,079
there's a witch outside screaming, let me be free, don't

593
00:29:22,119 --> 00:29:24,079
don't stop what you're doing, and then she drops dead.

594
00:29:24,079 --> 00:29:25,759
You know, again, it's a it's a story not it's

595
00:29:25,759 --> 00:29:28,279
ever actually happened. But he was known for his witch bottles,

596
00:29:28,279 --> 00:29:31,480
and funnily enough, one of the first he made didn't

597
00:29:31,759 --> 00:29:34,599
was sealed properly, and it did go bang a big bank,

598
00:29:35,039 --> 00:29:38,079
which damaged the fire. It was actually in so the

599
00:29:38,119 --> 00:29:40,599
man who used to make him for him, George Copple

600
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:42,359
I think his name was, He was a black sweep,

601
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:43,799
used to make the metal bods for him. He used

602
00:29:43,799 --> 00:29:45,920
to leave a small hole in the lid to let

603
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,119
the steam ats. He aldn't expload again. But James's son

604
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,680
Buck didn't know that, and his first attempt to do

605
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,839
what his father used to do blew up half a cottage.

606
00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:00,400
He exploded and destroyed the building. It was is that

607
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:02,440
somebody else's? But yeah, so I was like, no, you

608
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:04,640
shouldn't be doing this, Buck, don't, don't. Don't get involved

609
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,759
with this stuff. So the most largest is sort of

610
00:30:07,799 --> 00:30:12,119
combating witchcraft rather than causing it. The idea of this

611
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:14,759
picking your capitals. He had caused malicious things to happen

612
00:30:14,799 --> 00:30:16,160
and then say I'm the one who can get rid

613
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,960
of it for you. Moral was like I'd come along

614
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:20,319
and say I can help you with this problem, but

615
00:30:20,359 --> 00:30:21,960
you didn't create the problem. But the item was this

616
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:24,440
thinking you would cause a problem and then would be

617
00:30:24,599 --> 00:30:26,720
the solution to the problem. But it's just made up

618
00:30:26,759 --> 00:30:27,400
ubbish anyway.

619
00:30:28,119 --> 00:30:33,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that's quite an interesting because when

620
00:30:33,599 --> 00:30:36,240
we think about witchcraft and the witch's bottle in the

621
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,319
way that we're used in it now. Even Andy, when

622
00:30:39,359 --> 00:30:41,960
we did the last event that we had, I think

623
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,319
it was the event of soo in at Colchester Castle,

624
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,079
we looked at that witch's bottle that had been found

625
00:30:48,119 --> 00:30:52,839
and decounted during an antiques rowthow and the guy drunk

626
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,599
from it and then later realized that it was witch's

627
00:30:57,279 --> 00:31:02,000
product is bodily product with some rass thrown in as well.

628
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:04,400
So this this is obviously a practice that happens for

629
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,480
many many, many many many years ago. And it's interesting

630
00:31:08,559 --> 00:31:14,160
how witchcraft was used to expel witchcraft, so to speak,

631
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:16,920
at the irony in that I found quite fascinating as well,

632
00:31:18,359 --> 00:31:22,079
especially when Yeah, we were doing some research around the

633
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,279
Rich witch trials and we recognized that that was one

634
00:31:24,319 --> 00:31:26,200
of the processes that were what they would do to

635
00:31:26,279 --> 00:31:28,920
be able to bring the witch out of hireding was

636
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:33,400
witchcraft itself. Yeah, which is like I think therefore, I am.

637
00:31:33,559 --> 00:31:36,799
Wasn't that really what the Puritan's approach was to the

638
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,200
witchfinder general, was that kind of concept that he himself

639
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,839
was a witch because he was acknowledging its existence in

640
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:43,559
the first place.

641
00:31:43,799 --> 00:31:45,039
Speaker 3: Well, the funin thing is, of course, we've got a

642
00:31:45,079 --> 00:31:47,640
book written in the sixteen hundreds called The Discovery Witchcraft

643
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,839
by Reginald Scott, which was supposed to be Regecott the

644
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,720
debunking witchcraft, proving it was all faith, false and nonsense.

645
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,839
But he cataloged all these spells and rituals and what

646
00:31:56,839 --> 00:31:58,960
the witches did, and it's actually treasure trove, you know,

647
00:31:59,039 --> 00:32:01,599
for anyone's into in traditional witchcraft. It's the book to

648
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,200
go to, you know, because it's all there just by

649
00:32:04,279 --> 00:32:06,519
these plans. But obviously they use some of that material

650
00:32:06,599 --> 00:32:08,400
to try and debunk witchcraft, for things like the mouth

651
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:09,960
that's a man of a karum. So the hammer of

652
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,119
the witch is trying to eradicate, which I mean, we've

653
00:32:12,119 --> 00:32:14,279
got two tractive because we're talking about this is the

654
00:32:14,359 --> 00:32:16,559
sixteen hundreds of augment here with the witchcraft trials. This

655
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:18,759
is the eighteen hundreds of people like coming Murral much

656
00:32:18,799 --> 00:32:21,440
more recently, so there is a kind of a crossover

657
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,400
in the sense of the continuation of a form of

658
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,160
witchcraft that was around, but it's not been some I mean,

659
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,319
there's a book written by Margaret Murray in the nineteen

660
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:32,279
hundreds which claimed there was some big witch cost West

661
00:32:32,359 --> 00:32:35,319
western Europe is like this big organized witch cult across Europe,

662
00:32:35,319 --> 00:32:38,480
which is again a forty complete nonsense and their argument

663
00:32:38,559 --> 00:32:41,519
kind of fell apart very fast. But again some people

664
00:32:41,599 --> 00:32:44,200
still think it's genuine that really did have this strong

665
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,200
witch cult going. But again there's no evidence of a

666
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,480
grouping of work. They're certainly individuals. I mean, one of

667
00:32:50,519 --> 00:32:52,680
the first books I wrote years back, because the wiki

668
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,759
to already k, which is a compilation of witchcraft spells

669
00:32:55,839 --> 00:32:59,440
incantations from the Folcalo Society of eighteen hundreds. They are

670
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,279
actually proper spells. These folks which went out and collected

671
00:33:02,599 --> 00:33:04,319
They used to go out to the countryside and sort

672
00:33:04,319 --> 00:33:06,200
of talk to the locals and write down their tales

673
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,960
of strange things happening and history of that sort of stuff,

674
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,279
and they used to actually recall the real spells these

675
00:33:11,319 --> 00:33:13,960
people were using, which is why I published. But there

676
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,759
are always individuals, there no obvious group work. There's a

677
00:33:17,799 --> 00:33:20,920
thing called the Society of Horsemen's word, which are people

678
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,079
work forces. Obviously there's a kind of a bit more

679
00:33:24,079 --> 00:33:27,160
like freemason kind of thing, but that's the place as

680
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:31,079
you get to a proper organized magical groupings. Otherwise it's

681
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,519
just individuals who sometimes did have genuine books of magic

682
00:33:34,599 --> 00:33:36,799
that passed down through the families. Sometimes it was just

683
00:33:36,839 --> 00:33:40,440
things they'd read themselves or heard themselves and were using them,

684
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:42,680
but there was never anything organized.

685
00:33:44,079 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 1: And Margaret and Murray, I've come across her name before.

686
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:51,640
She at one point was considered an expert in terms

687
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:58,599
of what is witchcraft. In particular, there was an unsolved

688
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:04,359
murder case happened in I want to say it's I

689
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:09,920
want to say it is near Pendell, when there was

690
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:15,280
an elderly gentleman that had been been unlived using a pitchfork,

691
00:34:15,519 --> 00:34:20,000
and she was actually called in to allege that the

692
00:34:20,039 --> 00:34:22,519
reason why this had happened was because he owed a

693
00:34:22,599 --> 00:34:24,920
debt to land until only pay that debt was to

694
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:30,639
bleed and soak into the land. And this gentleman, I mean,

695
00:34:30,679 --> 00:34:36,239
there's still this actual footage of TV interviews from his granddaughter,

696
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,440
was like he was just an ordinary guy, just was

697
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,199
trimming some hedges. But this lady was brought in as

698
00:34:42,199 --> 00:34:45,719
an expert and actually proclaimed that this was a ritual

699
00:34:46,599 --> 00:34:48,000
un alive in so.

700
00:34:48,119 --> 00:34:51,639
Speaker 3: She disappoint him. True, No, I was gonna say.

701
00:34:51,519 --> 00:34:54,639
Speaker 1: She did some good work.

702
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 3: The bleeding into the land. That's the blood acre that

703
00:34:57,519 --> 00:34:59,639
goes back to my friend the Ian Chamber's new book

704
00:35:00,119 --> 00:35:02,480
HU called demart that's about that area, that idea, this

705
00:35:02,599 --> 00:35:05,679
sort of bleeding into the land as the betrayal things

706
00:35:05,679 --> 00:35:08,760
of Margaret Murray. She was very much recognized as an egyptologist.

707
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:10,760
That was her real field of expertise. And see what

708
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,400
still is you know, as a great eyptologist. But she

709
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:15,599
said wandered into his witchcraft area. I mean, I've got

710
00:35:15,599 --> 00:35:18,559
the original Focal Society magazine article she had published that

711
00:35:18,639 --> 00:35:20,400
was the beginning of the whole thing, which I got

712
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,079
really cheap act. She was quite nice to find. Now

713
00:35:23,159 --> 00:35:25,360
got a subsequent book of course as well. Looking over

714
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,880
the exits on my bookcase. But yeah, I mean she

715
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,559
was seen as having real validity and expertise, and she

716
00:35:31,599 --> 00:35:33,679
wrote the entire bit of botanicas Arty and witchcraft for

717
00:35:33,679 --> 00:35:35,800
a number of years and the various versions. But more

718
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:37,679
and more evidence began to stack up that just none

719
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:40,320
of this stuff added up. There was no records, there's

720
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:42,599
no evidence of any of this. Again, I see bits

721
00:35:42,599 --> 00:35:44,360
of witchcraft here and there, and things like the case

722
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:47,559
you mentioned there. The ideas were passed down almost through

723
00:35:47,599 --> 00:35:50,000
the family and just through sort of village life, you know,

724
00:35:50,119 --> 00:35:52,320
sort of village gossiping about what you can and can't

725
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,920
do to achieve change. But it's it's just fascinating how

726
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:58,559
those ideas kind of bounced around. But it's not this

727
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:02,239
big plan in this kind of field of witchcraft knowledge.

728
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,159
I mean, say half people could even read or right,

729
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:06,719
and they were just told stuff orally perhaps on my

730
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:09,679
relative I speaking of which I found out many years

731
00:36:09,679 --> 00:36:13,519
ago that my dad's grandma was the worse of her

732
00:36:13,599 --> 00:36:16,199
village in Wales. And it's almost like, is this like

733
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,440
a hereditary link down to me, this interest because my

734
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:21,880
actual parents have known just and Dad have no interest

735
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:23,599
at all in magic. I like what I do in

736
00:36:23,599 --> 00:36:25,880
the fact I'm published and writer, and that's quite nice.

737
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,800
But yeah, so there is always that kind of hidden

738
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:30,840
link in something to discover that can be lurking in

739
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:32,519
the background of your own life.

740
00:36:33,639 --> 00:36:37,679
Speaker 1: Absolutely very interesting. So I think the next kind of

741
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,559
half really is to really explore your world within the

742
00:36:41,599 --> 00:36:45,400
paranormal and what you've been getting up to and what

743
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,320
you've done some of the interesting cases that you've worked on.

744
00:36:49,559 --> 00:36:52,360
Because as long as I've known you, we've been doing

745
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:54,119
a paranorl but you've been doing it a lot longer

746
00:36:54,119 --> 00:36:54,519
than I have.

747
00:36:54,920 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 3: Oh yes, joh, I's and old now cheers. Well. I've

748
00:37:02,599 --> 00:37:05,519
actually done an online interview with the magazine Guazaza and

749
00:37:05,599 --> 00:37:08,119
Sounds about publishing, and they were asking my interest in

750
00:37:08,159 --> 00:37:10,199
the paranorm as well as the occult, and I was

751
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,119
telling them my very first experience I had, which has

752
00:37:13,159 --> 00:37:15,400
never quite worked out, must have been around about nineteen

753
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:19,000
seventy nine, seventy eight, seventy eight seventy nine. I was

754
00:37:19,039 --> 00:37:22,039
about ten eleven years old, so work up me ancient thereally.

755
00:37:22,079 --> 00:37:25,760
But so from that first experience in Cold House Fault,

756
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:28,239
which have I told you about? I remember if I

757
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:32,239
told the story, Okay, I'll tell the story. Everyone listens

758
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,239
to me on our network as herby story a few times,

759
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,360
I must admit, but I will tell it again. Essex,

760
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,280
along the Estuary, there is cold House Fault which is

761
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,480
near Tilbury, which is a if anyone doesn't know it

762
00:37:44,519 --> 00:37:47,199
is something that we don't. It was originally built in

763
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,840
the Napoleonic times early eighteen hundreds as a thought to

764
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:53,480
guard the Thames. It was built up bigger in the

765
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:55,199
First World War and then again in the Second World

766
00:37:55,199 --> 00:37:57,920
War as a gun in placement to protect obviously London

767
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,360
with the bombers coming over. But by the nineteen seventies

768
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,840
it was completely derelicted. It's been fenced off as corrugated

769
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:07,000
iron and fencing follow all the way around that you

770
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:09,519
couldn't get inside on its both not supposed to get inside.

771
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,519
It was derelicted and it was quite dangerous in parts,

772
00:38:12,559 --> 00:38:16,639
pretty much falling apart. But kids being kids, summer holidays

773
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,599
on summer Sundays, you know gout it was a big

774
00:38:19,599 --> 00:38:22,639
country park, so we'd get in the fault. Basically you'd

775
00:38:22,639 --> 00:38:25,000
find a gap in the fence and head inside. And

776
00:38:25,039 --> 00:38:27,159
if you remember carry it's got a big courtyard thing

777
00:38:27,159 --> 00:38:30,480
in the middle, which is like a parade ground excuse me,

778
00:38:31,199 --> 00:38:33,519
and you'd have kids and they're up me saying eleven

779
00:38:33,559 --> 00:38:35,920
years or playing football and stuff like that. And this

780
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,480
particular summer Sunday afternoon we were there. I was inside.

781
00:38:39,519 --> 00:38:40,920
It was a few kids in there playing football. I

782
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:42,320
was a bit of a way from where the rest

783
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:46,679
of them were, and I was own business. And the

784
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:48,800
grounds gravel, so it makes noise. You walk on it,

785
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:51,360
you can't miss the noise. I suddenly looked up and

786
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:54,559
saw two men in uniform. It went about ten fifteen

787
00:38:54,559 --> 00:38:58,239
feet away from me, just walking past, dressed in military uniform.

788
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:00,079
And I looked for a couple of seconds, and it

789
00:39:00,119 --> 00:39:01,760
didn't really shot us. I looked away, looked back, and

790
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:05,079
they were gone. I thought, what the hell was that.

791
00:39:06,079 --> 00:39:09,400
I realized they were walking towards what was a brick wall.

792
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:12,679
There's no door there they'd gone past. I say, there

793
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,559
was solid as really as anything, both of them dressed

794
00:39:15,559 --> 00:39:18,000
in It's that mid kind of kind of green browning

795
00:39:18,079 --> 00:39:20,119
on the uniform. The one thing I did notice that

796
00:39:20,199 --> 00:39:22,519
really stuck in my mind was there like like bandaging

797
00:39:22,599 --> 00:39:25,159
round below their knees down to their ankles, which I

798
00:39:25,159 --> 00:39:27,440
found that years later was a World War One uniform,

799
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:29,400
not World War two, so that from the First World War.

800
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:32,199
But they were completely silent. That's the thing I noticed

801
00:39:32,199 --> 00:39:34,880
that they made no sound. That was walking on gravel,

802
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,360
but there was no noise but they were completely solid,

803
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,599
and I was like, I was more intrigued. I wasn't scared.

804
00:39:40,599 --> 00:39:42,639
I was like, what's that? What have I just seen?

805
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:44,880
And I remember getting out of the park and Tom

806
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,199
of my parents what I had seen, and they're like, oh, really, well,

807
00:39:48,199 --> 00:39:49,719
they'd bring the believe them when I was like ten

808
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,119
years old. But I was like, absolutely fascinating, what on

809
00:39:52,199 --> 00:39:54,679
earth and I just seen? So I started and I

810
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:57,760
heard of ghosts obviously, so I started reading about them

811
00:39:57,760 --> 00:39:59,400
from books in the library and I spent sort of

812
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:01,119
the next few year in the library. I've been reading

813
00:40:01,159 --> 00:40:04,280
about all sorts of stuff about ghosts and again in

814
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,079
witchcraft and supernatural and the culture sort of came from

815
00:40:07,079 --> 00:40:09,679
that as well. But that's my first experience, which was

816
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:13,679
years ago, so kind of started from there. But that

817
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,079
was the That's one of those ones that will always

818
00:40:16,079 --> 00:40:18,000
stick with me, and all the things I've seen in

819
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:19,920
the experience over the years, that's all that stayed with

820
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,400
because it was the first. But it was so clear,

821
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:28,119
so real, and I've never seen anything as clear as

822
00:40:28,159 --> 00:40:33,079
that until last year. And I had another experience, which

823
00:40:33,119 --> 00:40:35,239
is after we've last seen each other, so we won't

824
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:38,119
know about this. We my wife and I stayed in

825
00:40:40,119 --> 00:40:44,320
remember was it Dartmouth? Sorry, Dartmouth is a little sort

826
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,519
of harbor town down here. We love visiting harbors and

827
00:40:47,559 --> 00:40:49,760
seaside that kind of stuff. Just go away for lots

828
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:52,280
of long weekends, just staying there. And there's one particular

829
00:40:52,599 --> 00:40:55,079
restaurant in Dartmouth which is actually right on the coast,

830
00:40:55,119 --> 00:40:57,000
is right on the edge of the harbor, and it

831
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,320
looks like a station, literally looks like an old fashioned station.

832
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:01,519
It's never been a train or anything. It was designed

833
00:41:01,519 --> 00:41:03,400
and built and not like that, built in the nineteen twenties.

834
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:05,880
And we were in there having dinner, and we were

835
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:09,440
right in one corner and the table beside us there

836
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:11,800
was a young couple and a kid and the dog,

837
00:41:12,079 --> 00:41:13,639
and there was a small little behind us. But it

838
00:41:13,679 --> 00:41:15,360
was no one, not exemptives, no one there. In fact

839
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:16,880
that you had stuff on the table so you couldn't

840
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:21,280
be used. We were sitting there and the Mandy, my wife,

841
00:41:21,559 --> 00:41:24,079
was looking past me to the couple in the beside us,

842
00:41:24,119 --> 00:41:26,480
and she said, the woman's got really funny eyebrows. You

843
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:28,280
don't know what she'd done to them. That really big

844
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,800
and thick. And I thought, oh, when she goes to

845
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:34,679
the lou whatever she comes back. And we were sitting

846
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,719
there and this woman dressed in black walked right past us,

847
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:40,199
long black hair, as real as anything, walked past us,

848
00:41:41,159 --> 00:41:43,000
and she went off and I could look down as

849
00:41:43,039 --> 00:41:44,519
eating and I thought, look what she comes back to.

850
00:41:44,599 --> 00:41:47,880
The ribbers looked like like that, and I thought, that's funny.

851
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:51,119
She's not coming back. I said to Mandy, that woman,

852
00:41:51,159 --> 00:41:52,440
the one just walked past us. That what you were

853
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:54,679
talking about with the black air, and he said, no,

854
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:57,079
one's got blonde hair and looked at the shoulder woman

855
00:41:57,119 --> 00:41:58,639
a blonde hair and was definitely not the same woman.

856
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,480
This person had come from nowhere and had walked right

857
00:42:02,519 --> 00:42:06,000
past us. Again no sound, but in a restaurant, expect

858
00:42:06,039 --> 00:42:08,400
to be too much. But she was as real as anything.

859
00:42:08,679 --> 00:42:11,400
And the way just came over to say I was deserved,

860
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:13,840
and I said, just seeing this figure walk past, He said,

861
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:16,719
all right, yes, no I've heard of her. I've never

862
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:18,559
seen her. But let me get the other girl. The

863
00:42:18,599 --> 00:42:20,199
other way is coming and said, yeah, I've seen her

864
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:22,519
so last year woman, tall woman dressed in black with

865
00:42:22,559 --> 00:42:24,519
blonde black hair. To know who she is, but yes,

866
00:42:24,519 --> 00:42:28,000
this place is definitely haunted. I was like, well, it

867
00:42:28,159 --> 00:42:30,400
was that thing again. It was so real. If you

868
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,400
weren't interested in the coast, you wouldn't have even get

869
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:34,360
a second thought. But it was to say it was

870
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:36,280
not the woman who was sitting on the field beside us,

871
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:38,440
but no one behind us. There's nothing there apart from

872
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:40,239
the door that was locked and blocked up the stuff

873
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:42,000
in front of it, so she couldn't have come from

874
00:42:42,039 --> 00:42:44,800
that door. There's no come from nowhere else, just like

875
00:42:45,159 --> 00:42:47,599
she's just resent to just walked past us. It was

876
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:49,719
quite amazing, So that was pretty good.

877
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:52,719
Speaker 1: Did Mandy see as well, No, she didn't notice that.

878
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:57,280
Speaker 3: I didn't notice her at all. And the fact I

879
00:42:57,280 --> 00:42:58,639
said to her that woman's not coming back once her

880
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:00,000
eye brothers I was would even give it a sad

881
00:43:00,039 --> 00:43:02,519
and thought. And man said, now the woman's blonde, and

882
00:43:02,599 --> 00:43:05,840
she was over There was blonde, curly hair. I saw

883
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:09,199
was very long jet black hair dressed in black. So

884
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:10,880
it definitely was really quite strange.

885
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:14,320
Speaker 1: Did we have a backstory for her? Do we know

886
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,280
who she is other than she just she didn't know near.

887
00:43:17,199 --> 00:43:19,039
Speaker 3: What she's near. But the first one had been a

888
00:43:19,079 --> 00:43:20,679
couple of months. She said, I've been told about, but

889
00:43:20,679 --> 00:43:22,159
it didn't. I never see him. The other one was older.

890
00:43:22,519 --> 00:43:25,519
While i've seen her last year, I don't know who.

891
00:43:25,639 --> 00:43:30,239
Don't think about her who she is, but yeah itself.

892
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:33,039
But then be tommers the staff that yes we do

893
00:43:33,119 --> 00:43:34,840
have a ghost, and yes one of us has seen it.

894
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:39,280
It's like blimey, incredible.

895
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:42,119
Speaker 1: See, we talk when we have guests on Me and

896
00:43:42,119 --> 00:43:45,440
Aie talk about paranoral experiences because our perceptions are very

897
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:47,360
different to what that looks like because we come from

898
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:51,639
different backgrounds. Natalie comes from a I think one's more

899
00:43:51,679 --> 00:43:57,119
spiritualist kind of you know that, yeah, and whereas Nannie's

900
00:43:57,159 --> 00:43:59,760
more healing and the way that we perceived we perceive

901
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:03,000
an it's cotly different. But now that you've had some experiences,

902
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:05,119
would you say that you've had similar where you've seen

903
00:44:05,119 --> 00:44:06,519
the full body apparition.

904
00:44:08,679 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 2: Not that solid. It's like I have seen stuff, but

905
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:17,719
I wouldn't say that I would. I've seen it as

906
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,280
if it was real three D. There's always been some

907
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:23,360
element to it that's made me sort of understand that

908
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:28,199
it wasn't Yeah dimensional, if that makes sense. So you've

909
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:31,119
kind of had the holy Grail of all paranormal things.

910
00:44:32,559 --> 00:44:35,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, twice. I mean I've always said the more you

911
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:37,719
do so, the more sensive you become. And I mean

912
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:40,079
I've seen many, many things ofations. But again, as you say,

913
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:42,639
you know it's not a physical being. There's something going on.

914
00:44:42,639 --> 00:44:45,280
It's weird. But that was like just solid as anything.

915
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:48,400
It was really anything. You hadn't looked back and realized

916
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:49,719
it was the wrong woman, and there's nowhere else this

917
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:52,199
woman to have come from, or wouldn't have realized this

918
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:53,719
affect you didn't come. It was just a fact you

919
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:55,519
didn't come back. You walk past us because the loser

920
00:44:55,519 --> 00:44:57,360
at the fire, and you see the stairs upstairs where

921
00:44:57,360 --> 00:44:59,599
they were, and she never came back. And the interest

922
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:02,199
is no where near where that where that she'd walked.

923
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:03,960
She couldn't have gone out the door. And then that

924
00:45:04,039 --> 00:45:08,079
one main door is she gone, and that wasn't there.

925
00:45:08,119 --> 00:45:10,719
She wasn't part of the cleontel. That was quite quiet,

926
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:11,840
and it was quite early in the year.

927
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:14,800
Speaker 2: Do you think that's the annoying thing about it? Though?

928
00:45:15,199 --> 00:45:17,840
It's like you perceive the thing as if it's there

929
00:45:18,039 --> 00:45:21,519
and then realize it's not there, and you think, damn it.

930
00:45:23,039 --> 00:45:28,239
I think after it's like, you know, it's like your

931
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:30,840
brain sort of has a slight delay. It's like, wait,

932
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:35,199
but yeah, that's the thing with the paranormal. It's sort

933
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:37,920
of like, you know when people say like orbs can't

934
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:39,360
be this, that, and the other, and I'm like, I've

935
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:42,559
actually seen orbs, but I've also seen shapes. I've also

936
00:45:42,639 --> 00:45:46,400
seen figures, and it's you know, it's so you're sort

937
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:50,599
of thinking all that there's different manifestations of things and

938
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:54,159
they could all be the same thing potentially very much.

939
00:45:54,199 --> 00:45:57,039
Speaker 3: So I've said one of our approaches the hydrogenous factor

940
00:45:57,039 --> 00:45:59,039
on my Shoulder with Steve Waller, is that we don't

941
00:45:59,559 --> 00:46:02,039
different shape between these things. We get a bit deep

942
00:46:02,079 --> 00:46:05,280
in what thinkings are fundamentally the same thing. Ghost you, foes,

943
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:09,079
cryptis are all the same thing that manifests according to

944
00:46:09,159 --> 00:46:12,039
your belief systems, what your interests are, how you perceive

945
00:46:12,159 --> 00:46:14,960
these other realities, if you like, there are these beings

946
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:18,039
what everyone call, they present themselves in ways that suit

947
00:46:18,639 --> 00:46:21,519
your understanding. And again I've mentioned this many times. I've

948
00:46:21,559 --> 00:46:23,400
shows before, but there was a show back in the

949
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:26,840
nineteen eighty it's called The Martian Chronicles, which is about

950
00:46:27,119 --> 00:46:29,519
man's first expression of Mars a dramas is written a

951
00:46:29,559 --> 00:46:32,920
rare brabery, and the idea is the Martians themselves don't

952
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:35,559
have a physical form anymore, but they can take appear

953
00:46:35,679 --> 00:46:38,159
to be certain ways. And there's one particular scene I

954
00:46:38,159 --> 00:46:40,119
don't want to spoil because it's worl worth watching. Oh

955
00:46:40,199 --> 00:46:42,679
but it's worth watching, where the set of the first

956
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:45,159
church on Mars and the vicary if you like, is

957
00:46:45,199 --> 00:46:48,679
in there late one evening and he hears movement behind

958
00:46:48,679 --> 00:46:50,159
you in the corner of the back corner of the church.

959
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:53,599
It's sort of in the gloom, and Jesus walks forward,

960
00:46:54,039 --> 00:46:56,440
complete with the crown, the thorns, blood in his hands

961
00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:59,960
from the crucirix and everything, and the figure basically says,

962
00:47:00,079 --> 00:47:02,440
please stop doing this to me. It hurts and the

963
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:05,079
priests that what you mean you are putting this idea

964
00:47:05,159 --> 00:47:07,440
on to me of how you think I'm supposed to look.

965
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:10,039
You're making me basically making it like Jesus because that's

966
00:47:10,079 --> 00:47:13,400
your belief system, and says stop doing exerting me. I

967
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:16,079
don't know. So I see a lot of these panelal fluma.

968
00:47:16,119 --> 00:47:19,800
That's what it is. They are non corporeal beings that

969
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:22,840
can manifest in certain ways. And one of the spit

970
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:25,039
side right here by. The theory is about Bigfoot is

971
00:47:25,039 --> 00:47:27,320
that it's interdimensional, that it's some kind of being that

972
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:30,199
can move between dimensions. Is why you get reports of

973
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:32,760
that big footprints suddenly stopping in the middle of nowhere,

974
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:35,239
you know, just stop as if it's just been lifted

975
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:37,440
off the ground and vanished. And one theory is that

976
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:40,599
these things are moving between realities, that it's a it's

977
00:47:40,599 --> 00:47:42,639
a probable being, it's a beast, you know, it's an annimal,

978
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:45,800
but it is somehow moves between realities. And perhaps ghosts

979
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:48,440
are doing the same thing. She flipped out of whatever

980
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:50,400
acituy she did in before and came into her house.

981
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:52,719
Briefly as I watched the work passed the World War

982
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:57,000
two soldiers. Something triggered their appearance to re emerge as residual,

983
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:00,639
residual beings. But there's still a man of some kind

984
00:48:00,679 --> 00:48:02,039
of energy that was present in the place, and it

985
00:48:02,119 --> 00:48:04,079
took on a form that was suited to the built

986
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:06,559
the buildings of teen years old, and it was a

987
00:48:06,599 --> 00:48:08,119
military base. I didn't know much about it at the

988
00:48:08,119 --> 00:48:09,519
ten years old, but I knew what it was. So

989
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:12,159
them taking that former first or war soldiers made.

990
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:14,960
Speaker 2: Sense possibility as well as like that, you had a

991
00:48:15,039 --> 00:48:20,599
sort of slight time slip yourself. Yeah, yeah, your mind split.

992
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:23,199
So you did have a temporary time split, which is

993
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:25,679
why perhaps they seemed so real as well, because you

994
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:28,400
were actually seeing them, you know what I mean, in

995
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:29,599
the same place and time.

996
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:31,960
Speaker 3: I give you a example of that happened to a friend

997
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:35,840
of mine, which is quite amazing. He was researching in

998
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:40,599
the Phisophical Society's library in London and probably heard of them.

999
00:48:41,079 --> 00:48:42,480
And he said, once it o case. You were sitting

1000
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:45,079
at his desk and you looked up and a man

1001
00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:48,000
dressing very unusual old fashioned clothing was staring at him.

1002
00:48:49,039 --> 00:48:50,960
And the guy sort of looked at him, straight to

1003
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:53,480
my friend stranger, and then he turned and went between

1004
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:56,960
the bookcases, and friend got up and looked. It was gone,

1005
00:48:57,440 --> 00:49:00,199
but they'd seen each other, obviously, this guy so it

1006
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:02,159
was dressed to kind of Victorian style, claiming with the

1007
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:04,199
office that he goes back to Victorian age, and of

1008
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:06,280
course my family was dressing modern clothing. So they were

1009
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:08,920
seeing each other, and so that was the really weird thing.

1010
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:10,679
He could. I could see he was looking at me,

1011
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:13,719
and we looked puzzled. Obviously I was dressed very strangely,

1012
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:15,840
and I was him thinking equally puzzled as and whatever am

1013
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:18,360
I seeing? So that was I think that was a

1014
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:20,400
really good song. Probably probably was a time slit because

1015
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:21,440
they were aware of each other.

1016
00:49:22,639 --> 00:49:26,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's I think I were. Reality is

1017
00:49:26,159 --> 00:49:29,719
a lot more fluid than people sing. It's like now,

1018
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:31,719
I was saying to my mum the other day, I'm

1019
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:35,840
not convinced that we aren't having crossing timelines right now.

1020
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:41,800
It's like and crossing parallel universes because it's just like

1021
00:49:42,559 --> 00:49:46,239
because I keep noticing details of things keep changing, and

1022
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:49,000
it's sort of like, you know, I can't remember what

1023
00:49:49,039 --> 00:49:52,239
the example was. What. We have a bridge near us

1024
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:56,440
called Swartston Bridge. It's very old. I can't remember how

1025
00:49:56,440 --> 00:49:59,719
old it is, but it's a causeway across like the floodplains,

1026
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:03,119
and it's like for about six months, I drive down

1027
00:50:03,199 --> 00:50:07,079
it several times a week and it's real crooked. It's

1028
00:50:07,119 --> 00:50:09,239
difficult to drive on. You have to really be careful

1029
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:12,559
this it is just not straight. And it's like for

1030
00:50:12,679 --> 00:50:16,199
six months of the year, I'm fine driving down it now.

1031
00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:19,039
All the optics, all the corners, the angles don't need

1032
00:50:19,079 --> 00:50:20,800
to think about it. And then suddenly one day I

1033
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:22,360
went down it and I was like, this bridge is

1034
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:26,039
a different shape. Uh yeah, And now when I go

1035
00:50:26,159 --> 00:50:28,320
down it, I have to really focus because I'm like,

1036
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:31,960
I swear this wasn't this narrow before. And it's just

1037
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:34,119
sort of like and there was something else that happened,

1038
00:50:34,119 --> 00:50:35,760
and I Mum had an argument with me because I

1039
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:38,239
was like, no, this was this and she goes, no,

1040
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:41,000
it's not. And I was like, no, I'm telling you

1041
00:50:41,079 --> 00:50:43,559
it was like this, and she goes, no, it's always

1042
00:50:43,599 --> 00:50:46,199
been like that. And I'm just like and there's been

1043
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:48,840
a you know, everything goes on about the Mandela effect,

1044
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:52,079
but there's been about four or five things now in

1045
00:50:52,119 --> 00:50:56,039
the last talking about times tips. Actually that is weird.

1046
00:50:56,519 --> 00:50:59,840
It's not quite ghosting. But I come out of this

1047
00:51:00,079 --> 00:51:03,039
supermarket one night and I'd park my Courser as a

1048
00:51:03,079 --> 00:51:05,400
silver Courser at the time, in the car park, same

1049
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:07,920
place I always parked it because I'm a bit autistic,

1050
00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:09,239
so I have to part more or less in the

1051
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:09,840
same place.

1052
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:10,599
Speaker 3: Everyone does that.

1053
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:13,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, said, I know where the car is, but it's like,

1054
00:51:13,599 --> 00:51:15,800
you know, it's sort of like that's my safe parking

1055
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:17,920
place I always parked there come out of it. It

1056
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:19,599
was late at night, it was nobody else around the

1057
00:51:19,599 --> 00:51:22,559
car park. There was like two three other cars everywhere else.

1058
00:51:22,639 --> 00:51:25,119
My car was at the far end because nobody ever walks,

1059
00:51:25,159 --> 00:51:26,840
so it's like you don't have to worry about sort

1060
00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:29,840
of squeezing in. And I got halfway across the car

1061
00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:31,800
park and I looked to where my car should be,

1062
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:35,199
and I actually stopped in the middle of the car

1063
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:38,079
park and was staring at this car that was in

1064
00:51:38,119 --> 00:51:41,800
my car parking space. And it was a courser, but

1065
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:45,119
it was like no design of courser that had ever existed,

1066
00:51:46,639 --> 00:51:49,880
like a different bumper, a different thing down the side.

1067
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:52,639
It was a different color, a different shape. And I

1068
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:56,679
actually stopped and stared at it for about five or

1069
00:51:56,679 --> 00:51:59,760
ten seconds, going, that's where my car should be. My

1070
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:02,280
car isn't there. There's no cars on either side of it.

1071
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:04,880
Where the hell is my car? And I was just

1072
00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:07,239
like a bit, a bit like confused for a bit,

1073
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:09,320
and then so I thought, well, I'll just go in

1074
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:12,159
that direction anyway, because you know, maybe I'm being stupid

1075
00:52:12,199 --> 00:52:16,159
or something. And as I started walking, that car disappeared

1076
00:52:16,159 --> 00:52:21,239
and my silver car reappeared. My silver Corsa. It was

1077
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:24,880
just like I said, this courser doesn't exist in the will.

1078
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:29,199
It's not a model that has ever existed. And I've

1079
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:31,119
done it before as well, where I was filling up

1080
00:52:31,159 --> 00:52:34,719
petrol and I looked down at my car again course,

1081
00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:37,119
because I only ever drived courses. I looked down in

1082
00:52:37,199 --> 00:52:39,559
my car and it was a reno, and I was like,

1083
00:52:39,559 --> 00:52:41,599
why am I filling up a reno? And then I

1084
00:52:41,639 --> 00:52:43,760
looked away and look back again. It was my quarter again,

1085
00:52:44,559 --> 00:52:47,119
and I was just like the first time, I wasn't

1086
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:49,400
very well, so I thought, I'm just having like fever jeams.

1087
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:51,599
The second time, though, I was stone.

1088
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:55,519
Speaker 3: Called soupid and I see aned some therapy there because

1089
00:52:55,519 --> 00:52:57,960
you're having some slips moments.

1090
00:53:00,159 --> 00:53:01,679
Speaker 2: Time, I was like, no, no, I'm just ill. The

1091
00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:04,199
second time, I was like on my way home from work,

1092
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:06,679
so it was just like completely normal, and I was

1093
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:09,000
just like, what the hell is that, you know, and

1094
00:53:09,039 --> 00:53:10,559
it's like I've had a couple of things happened, and

1095
00:53:10,559 --> 00:53:12,840
I was just like but then they sort of switched

1096
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:15,440
back again. So it's sort of like I'd like to say,

1097
00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:19,360
I'm not convinced that our dimensions don't actually switch and

1098
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:21,800
then switch back again a story of.

1099
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:24,079
Speaker 3: A friend of mine his name because I haven't expressially

1100
00:53:24,119 --> 00:53:26,159
really but I know him well to know he wouldn't

1101
00:53:26,159 --> 00:53:28,000
have made this up. Absolutely not at all good for

1102
00:53:28,079 --> 00:53:30,559
years back. Now he's living in London, he was there's

1103
00:53:30,599 --> 00:53:32,199
been a bit of book colacked like me, and him

1104
00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:34,480
and his young girlfriend had gone to Canada Market just

1105
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:36,480
to see if they can find some interesting books. He

1106
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:38,400
picked up a few books from a couple of stores

1107
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:39,760
and they decided they want to get something to eat.

1108
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:41,639
It was getting into early evening. He said, we wanted

1109
00:53:41,679 --> 00:53:43,840
to see I find an Indian restaurant. We came out

1110
00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:46,280
of a different entrance for the market that they normally

1111
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:48,280
used and said, we'll never look around, see will find something.

1112
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:51,199
The family the Indian restaurant down one side street and thought,

1113
00:53:51,519 --> 00:53:53,599
keep it trying. And so the food was okay, and

1114
00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:56,440
had the meal paid for it and left and he

1115
00:53:56,519 --> 00:53:57,920
realized he got back to the tube, so he left

1116
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:00,559
the books behind he'd booked in the bag the restaurant.

1117
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:02,719
You know, I don't want to lose these, So he

1118
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:05,599
walked back to the restaurant. Definitely the right street, the

1119
00:54:05,679 --> 00:54:08,400
right place, and the building was boarded up. It was

1120
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:10,440
closed down. It was completely closed there and said, this

1121
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:12,960
has been closed down. It goes down for ages, and

1122
00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:15,599
this is absolutely the right road. There's no way. So

1123
00:54:15,679 --> 00:54:18,119
we looked around other streets off as couldn't find it.

1124
00:54:18,119 --> 00:54:20,760
So this is the right road, not only with the

1125
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:24,000
restaurant on his books are God as well? Now, he said,

1126
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:26,480
this is They were both him and his partner are convinced.

1127
00:54:26,519 --> 00:54:28,159
He said. He said to me, you've will on my own,

1128
00:54:28,239 --> 00:54:29,639
but it might have made a mistake, but said no, no,

1129
00:54:29,719 --> 00:54:32,639
we were both convinced. This was the road. That was

1130
00:54:32,639 --> 00:54:35,159
the building and it's boarded up, so it's just so

1131
00:54:36,159 --> 00:54:37,679
sit in the restaurant, I can think back, and said,

1132
00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:41,440
nothing seemed strange and usually didn't feel wrong, but obviously

1133
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:43,480
it's some kind of weird reality flipp had occurred for

1134
00:54:43,519 --> 00:54:46,360
them there. It was just very strange. I mean, he's

1135
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:48,360
into the like I am. But they said, that's one

1136
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:50,079
of the weird things ever happened to him, was this

1137
00:54:50,199 --> 00:54:52,760
restaurant changing reality.

1138
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:56,880
Speaker 2: We used to have that thinking was in reading. There

1139
00:54:56,960 --> 00:54:59,599
was a book shopping reading that we went in once

1140
00:54:59,639 --> 00:55:02,440
and we could never find it after that, and then

1141
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:06,119
often we'd randomly find it and it was never quite

1142
00:55:06,719 --> 00:55:08,679
We just were like, oh, we'll go to a bull show.

1143
00:55:08,719 --> 00:55:10,440
It's like, we can't find it. Next time I was

1144
00:55:10,519 --> 00:55:12,320
visiting my sister, it's like, can we see if we

1145
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:15,000
can find that bookshop? And she was like it doesn't exist.

1146
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:17,840
We can't find it anymore. And I was like, what

1147
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:20,119
is it closed down? She goes, no, it's not there.

1148
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:26,199
Speaker 3: It happened. People usually dismissed it as being their own imagination.

1149
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:31,239
Speaker 5: Or you know, obviously, but it's bizarre because I've had

1150
00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:33,159
I've had it happen a few times now that I'm

1151
00:55:33,199 --> 00:55:36,960
starting to actually question partly my own Like you say,

1152
00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:38,599
you first after you think I was going a little

1153
00:55:38,639 --> 00:55:40,559
bit crazy, but you're like waiting in it.

1154
00:55:40,559 --> 00:55:44,239
Speaker 3: It's like there's no other explansion. Recently here in my

1155
00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:46,400
house we had a little one my wife and well

1156
00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:48,360
there's things going in this house were definite, I mean

1157
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:51,159
ritual magic in it. So there's not surprising. But also

1158
00:55:51,199 --> 00:55:53,519
we know that at least the most the blast person

1159
00:55:53,559 --> 00:55:55,320
livid died in the house, and we think possibly one

1160
00:55:55,360 --> 00:55:58,159
before they did as well, so there's possibly there. But

1161
00:55:58,519 --> 00:56:00,239
a couple of things have happened that have stood out

1162
00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:04,119
as we've got quite a long lounge. Rather that it's

1163
00:56:04,119 --> 00:56:07,880
like double the aspect, opposite ends and so often not

1164
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:09,760
so much now. When we first moved here, we could

1165
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:12,000
see a black catwalk across the lounge at the following

1166
00:56:12,039 --> 00:56:14,599
of the lounge. It was like, did you see that? Yeah,

1167
00:56:14,679 --> 00:56:19,159
that's weird. I had friend Richard stayed early last year.

1168
00:56:19,159 --> 00:56:21,000
He came over for a long weekend when was away

1169
00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:23,280
and he said, if you get a cat got into

1170
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:25,320
your house, because it's just some shore saw a catwalk

1171
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:27,760
pass the same space. I mean, we didn't tell him

1172
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:29,480
about what we've seen, but he said, no, I just

1173
00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:31,920
saw a catwall past. No, no, definitely no cats in here.

1174
00:56:32,039 --> 00:56:35,320
But no, we've seen it. We've smelt cigarette smoke more

1175
00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:38,760
than one occasion. Now nobody around us smokes, neither side

1176
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:41,119
or opposite smoked. Highness is an empty field, so there's

1177
00:56:41,119 --> 00:56:43,480
no one there, but it's not smoking the house. But

1178
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:46,960
just last week we had a little strange insidance which

1179
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:49,639
I'm mentioned on my Facebook page. Actually a little that

1180
00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:54,800
inch high statue of Ganesh, the Hindu god. We're sitting

1181
00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:56,719
in the lounge watching TV, and all of a sudden

1182
00:56:56,719 --> 00:56:59,920
we both were like a like something fallen manual that

1183
00:57:00,079 --> 00:57:02,000
the hallway and on the third step from the bottom

1184
00:57:02,679 --> 00:57:05,079
statur had appeared. Now it's mine, I know it. I

1185
00:57:05,159 --> 00:57:09,440
hadn't seen since we moved house. It was completely covered

1186
00:57:09,440 --> 00:57:12,119
in dust, thick dust all over it. It just appeared

1187
00:57:12,199 --> 00:57:15,000
on the stairs. Lily just dropped onto the stairs. God

1188
00:57:15,079 --> 00:57:17,360
knows where that came from. Absolutely no idea at a

1189
00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:21,000
where that came from. Sos happened. But when you say

1190
00:57:21,159 --> 00:57:23,119
you weld have it's the same thing we would have

1191
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:25,639
the occult you do panel investigating. The more you do it,

1192
00:57:25,639 --> 00:57:27,559
the more you tune you become, and I think you

1193
00:57:27,639 --> 00:57:30,960
are more visible to them, whatever they are, and they

1194
00:57:31,039 --> 00:57:33,159
noticed you more as well. And we've had a few

1195
00:57:33,159 --> 00:57:37,039
things there recently. A remote control disappeared and reappeared on

1196
00:57:37,119 --> 00:57:40,280
its end. It sank straight up in the at the

1197
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:42,480
fact base. It could do it, but you'd have to

1198
00:57:42,599 --> 00:57:44,360
very carefully place it on the carpet do it. It

1199
00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:47,800
would fall over. But were sitting there sort of bottomed up.

1200
00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:50,639
How the hell did it get there? I mean, it

1201
00:57:51,079 --> 00:57:53,360
possibly have landed like that. It's not been dropped from anywhere.

1202
00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:55,960
It was just it was there on the floor. So yeah,

1203
00:57:56,039 --> 00:57:58,360
so's these things have me for many years. I mean

1204
00:57:58,679 --> 00:58:00,760
a story I'd tell many times is back when I

1205
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:02,360
was living in a flat in London with Mandy and

1206
00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:04,599
her mom. I used a small back room and she

1207
00:58:04,679 --> 00:58:07,360
repaired Vinty's fountain pens. And one of the best things

1208
00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:10,440
for Vinta's fountain pen repair is copy decks glue, because

1209
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:13,519
it's flexibly strong but flexible and offering you new flexibility

1210
00:58:13,519 --> 00:58:15,199
of a pen. I had a big tub, quite a

1211
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:17,840
large tub of it in that back room used to

1212
00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:21,679
is and it went missing. It just literally disappeared for

1213
00:58:21,679 --> 00:58:23,920
about a month. And I came home from work one

1214
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:25,760
day and I go upstairs to get changed and you

1215
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:26,880
can get to the top of the stairs. You could

1216
00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:29,280
as you walk upsteps you could see the end room

1217
00:58:29,599 --> 00:58:31,480
and as all were upstairs there it was in the

1218
00:58:31,480 --> 00:58:35,920
middle of the floor of the room. It's just appeared. Obviously.

1219
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:38,239
I asked Mandy's mom because she tired, she lived on

1220
00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:40,800
She said, and touch it, and I know she wouldn't have

1221
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:42,880
made it up and it's not things he did, and

1222
00:58:43,440 --> 00:58:46,679
it just reappeared. It's nice, this portload more actually it's

1223
00:58:46,719 --> 00:58:48,960
good stuff. But it was literally in the middle of

1224
00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:50,920
the floor. There's no way it could have been there

1225
00:58:51,039 --> 00:58:54,880
that time and not be noticed. So yeah, these tricks

1226
00:58:54,920 --> 00:58:57,239
to elements something that's probably the most common feature I

1227
00:58:57,239 --> 00:58:59,719
think in tendive experience. I think has been moved around

1228
00:58:59,719 --> 00:59:03,760
things disappearing and reappearing in odd places. That's a very

1229
00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:06,960
common phenomena. So you've probably caught more poly gist space

1230
00:59:07,039 --> 00:59:09,639
rather than ghostly, but yeah, it's one of the most

1231
00:59:09,679 --> 00:59:13,039
common things people tend to report ope activity and tricks

1232
00:59:13,039 --> 00:59:14,280
to podu ice particularly.

1233
00:59:15,199 --> 00:59:18,519
Speaker 1: I think that's a really interesting I think within itself,

1234
00:59:18,639 --> 00:59:21,440
that's a whole news show, isn't it talking about the

1235
00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:26,760
different different types of hauntings and different types of manifestations

1236
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:30,519
of spirit, which is also really fascinating, which we've come

1237
00:59:30,559 --> 00:59:32,599
to the end of today's show. It would be really

1238
00:59:32,599 --> 00:59:35,159
good for us to be able to have that discussion

1239
00:59:35,639 --> 00:59:39,760
on a secondary one. But I leave Natalie in full

1240
00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:43,679
control of booking guests in because I am chaos apparently.

1241
00:59:44,679 --> 00:59:47,719
Speaker 3: Chaos and about coming on job bloody shot.

1242
00:59:50,519 --> 00:59:53,079
Speaker 2: I was like, I don't see you want to interview him. Really,

1243
00:59:53,559 --> 00:59:58,760
it's just like organizing and everything else, and I think.

1244
00:59:58,639 --> 01:00:02,960
Speaker 1: You know, organized, we were like passing ships because we

1245
01:00:03,119 --> 01:00:04,599
arranged it and then you was going out to New

1246
01:00:04,679 --> 01:00:06,239
York and we weren't too sure when you was going

1247
01:00:06,280 --> 01:00:09,079
to be going out to New York. And then yeah,

1248
01:00:09,079 --> 01:00:11,639
it kind of just nothing seemed to coincide. And then

1249
01:00:11,679 --> 01:00:15,320
it kind of just yeah, I got distracted by something shiny,

1250
01:00:15,519 --> 01:00:19,039
clearly because my attention doesn't stay very long. And then

1251
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:20,800
and then and Hee was like, oh, we have a

1252
01:00:20,840 --> 01:00:23,239
booked in. I'm like, no, we have not booked it in,

1253
01:00:23,599 --> 01:00:30,360
but Nannie is in control of the booking on me. No, No,

1254
01:00:31,639 --> 01:00:32,400
it's not.

1255
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:37,480
Speaker 2: Learn to be more more forceful because it was like, oh,

1256
01:00:37,519 --> 01:00:39,119
you're ADHD, And I was like, how could I be

1257
01:00:39,159 --> 01:00:44,440
ADHD when I have to organize carry not Adhd. I'm

1258
01:00:44,519 --> 01:00:47,159
the one organizing things, but I've got to be more

1259
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:50,880
what's the word directing when I organized? Because I'm two

1260
01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:53,719
people pleasing. So I'm like, would you like to instead

1261
01:00:53,760 --> 01:00:57,800
of saying we're doing this at.

1262
01:00:57,679 --> 01:01:02,639
Speaker 1: This time end off, I'm absolutely vibrating for ADHD. So

1263
01:01:02,719 --> 01:01:05,320
I'm like, oh, okay, look at this new thing. So

1264
01:01:05,880 --> 01:01:09,119
yeah it is it is yes, So yes, Natalie, we're booking.

1265
01:01:09,800 --> 01:01:12,280
It would be great to ask to have that discussion again.

1266
01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:15,079
And in the meantime for anyone that's joined us this evening,

1267
01:01:15,159 --> 01:01:17,199
Where can I find you and where can I find

1268
01:01:17,239 --> 01:01:20,679
your publishing and what can they look for it forward

1269
01:01:20,719 --> 01:01:22,079
to in the next couple of months.

1270
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:25,000
Speaker 3: Okay, Well, I am Ninth Circle Press, which is Ninthcircle

1271
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:27,159
Press dot com or dot co dot uk. I own

1272
01:01:27,199 --> 01:01:30,639
both as a Ninth Circle Press. One word Facebook, She's

1273
01:01:30,639 --> 01:01:33,000
the best place to find me for want to communicate

1274
01:01:33,039 --> 01:01:35,800
with me on Facebook. And Andy Mensa, which you can

1275
01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:37,679
find as a picture of Dent used to be a

1276
01:01:37,679 --> 01:01:41,440
picture of me reading Carl Jung book with the book

1277
01:01:41,559 --> 01:01:43,039
sort in front of my face as if it was

1278
01:01:43,119 --> 01:01:45,719
me for years, and I've just recently changed that to

1279
01:01:45,719 --> 01:01:47,000
a picture of Dente. But I think I might go

1280
01:01:47,079 --> 01:01:49,000
back to the old Carl Young because everyone knows that

1281
01:01:49,039 --> 01:01:52,199
picture of me, so they'll return to that one at

1282
01:01:52,199 --> 01:01:54,440
the moment. To the next books. I am working on

1283
01:01:54,880 --> 01:01:57,840
two at the moment. One is a reprint of an

1284
01:01:57,840 --> 01:01:59,639
old book I did years ago with a friend, myn

1285
01:01:59,719 --> 01:02:03,920
Richard about a fragment of Greek magic, Greek magical, a

1286
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:06,559
fragment of a Greek magical for priory. It's old, very

1287
01:02:06,559 --> 01:02:10,079
old magical spell stuff. And my own book. The first

1288
01:02:10,079 --> 01:02:12,360
one I actually had published is called liber kearons On,

1289
01:02:12,440 --> 01:02:15,400
which is about Knocking Magic, which first thing about ten

1290
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:18,159
years ago and has been with another publisher for a

1291
01:02:18,239 --> 01:02:20,239
while and for a verse reason it's not going to

1292
01:02:20,280 --> 01:02:22,920
publishing it. So I've got that back. So I'm working

1293
01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:24,840
on my own liber kreons On second edition, which is

1294
01:02:24,960 --> 01:02:27,679
much more expanded. And then I'm so working on the

1295
01:02:27,679 --> 01:02:30,679
book on Murrall and Picking Gear, which it's only really

1296
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:34,320
like a long essay with all the a coupany of

1297
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:36,719
material that basically proves the argument, proves the case that

1298
01:02:36,719 --> 01:02:39,599
should be out with Troybooks. Another probas I've worked with

1299
01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:42,480
rather than from me, because yah, much bigger than I am.

1300
01:02:42,480 --> 01:02:44,480
I don't want to get the word out about just spelling

1301
01:02:44,519 --> 01:02:47,280
this myth about Murrow and big ging Gil. So that's

1302
01:02:47,280 --> 01:02:48,079
at work at the moment.

1303
01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:51,840
Speaker 1: So there you it's exciting, and we do have a

1304
01:02:51,840 --> 01:02:53,920
couple of events coming up as well, which obviously you'll

1305
01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:57,719
be coming along to some of it, some of this, Yeah,

1306
01:02:57,840 --> 01:02:59,480
so we're still kind of pie in the sky at

1307
01:02:59,480 --> 01:03:02,360
the moment. We will we're finalizing some dates, so we've

1308
01:03:02,360 --> 01:03:04,920
got some of those coming up. So obviously they're based

1309
01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:06,679
in Essex and so if you want to come along

1310
01:03:06,719 --> 01:03:09,159
and come along to one of them, yeah, you'd be

1311
01:03:09,159 --> 01:03:10,960
able to meet Andy Mercer at those events as well,

1312
01:03:11,000 --> 01:03:14,280
which is fantastic. So with that, I'm going to say

1313
01:03:14,280 --> 01:03:16,880
thank you so much Andy to finally have you on

1314
01:03:16,920 --> 01:03:22,519
the show. It's been really good talking. Yeah, it's been

1315
01:03:22,559 --> 01:03:26,519
really lovely. I look forward to chatting again soon. Thank

1316
01:03:26,559 --> 01:03:27,320
you for joining us.

1317
01:03:28,239 --> 01:03:28,679
Speaker 2: Thank you.

1318
01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:32,320
Speaker 1: And with that I'm going say goodbye, thank you so

1319
01:03:32,440 --> 01:03:34,159
much for everyone that's joined us, and we will see

1320
01:03:34,199 --> 01:03:34,880
you next time.