WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.080 --> 00:00:16.039 Hey, everybody, Welcome to Coming Out PUD. Yeah, we are 2 00:00:16.160 --> 00:00:21.000 recording this Friday morning. I had mentioned at the end 3 00:00:21.000 --> 00:00:23.079 of the last episode that I wanted to do a 4 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:27.120 post election episode. That's what's happening now. I wanted to 5 00:00:27.199 --> 00:00:29.199 let you know that we're recording Friday, so that if 6 00:00:29.239 --> 00:00:35.320 anything wacky happens over the weekend or on Monday, it 7 00:00:35.399 --> 00:00:37.840 won't be we won't be able to speak to that. 8 00:00:38.039 --> 00:00:40.719 But I wanted to do an episode as close to 9 00:00:40.960 --> 00:00:44.920 the release date as possible so we know the results. 10 00:00:45.880 --> 00:00:49.520 They're not great, and that's one of the things where 11 00:00:49.679 --> 00:00:53.399 we're going to talk about. I'm really I'm very excited 12 00:00:53.399 --> 00:00:56.119 about my guest, who I will introduce momentarily. I had 13 00:00:57.119 --> 00:01:01.079 I had a guest in mind to discussed not only 14 00:01:01.119 --> 00:01:03.759 her coming out story, but sort of speak to the 15 00:01:03.799 --> 00:01:07.560 election results. I had hoped that they would be favorable 16 00:01:07.599 --> 00:01:11.120 and that we could have sort of upbeat discussion about them. 17 00:01:11.159 --> 00:01:14.159 But as you guys know, if you've listened all these years, 18 00:01:14.599 --> 00:01:17.599 I am nothing if not a realist. So I was 19 00:01:17.719 --> 00:01:23.599 prepared for a not great outcome, and I wanted to 20 00:01:23.680 --> 00:01:26.319 choose a guest to who I felt I could have 21 00:01:26.359 --> 00:01:29.319 a good conversation with about what's going on, So we 22 00:01:29.400 --> 00:01:33.319 will get into all of that, but just uh yeah, 23 00:01:33.840 --> 00:01:40.079 sending everybody a lot of love and compassion and this podcast, 24 00:01:40.560 --> 00:01:44.920 no matter what is going on around us, I will 25 00:01:44.959 --> 00:01:47.879 always start with a queer route shout out and today 26 00:01:48.000 --> 00:01:52.239 is no different. So today's queer root shout out comes 27 00:01:52.439 --> 00:01:56.599 from a listener. This listener is named Nicki. Nicki wrote 28 00:01:56.640 --> 00:02:00.159 in and asked to sh if I would shout out 29 00:02:00.200 --> 00:02:02.879 her one of her queer roots. So shout out to 30 00:02:02.959 --> 00:02:06.920 you if your queer root is Hailey Hudson in the 31 00:02:06.959 --> 00:02:11.240 movie Freaky Friday. I am speaking of the more recent 32 00:02:11.280 --> 00:02:14.199 Freaky Friday with Lindsay Lowan and Jamie Lee Curtis. I 33 00:02:14.400 --> 00:02:17.319 scandalously have never seen this movie, so I had to 34 00:02:17.319 --> 00:02:20.280 look this up. Hailey Hudson plays a character named Peg 35 00:02:20.719 --> 00:02:23.560 who is in Lindsay Lohan's band. She's like the cool 36 00:02:23.680 --> 00:02:29.159 emo guitar or possibly bass player, and Nicky says I 37 00:02:29.199 --> 00:02:31.199 had seen a meme that was like, if you still 38 00:02:31.240 --> 00:02:33.960 remember the song they perform in Freaky Friday, it's because 39 00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:37.159 you're by and boy were they right, So shout out 40 00:02:37.199 --> 00:02:40.080 to Hailey Hudson. They are in fact doing another Freaky 41 00:02:40.120 --> 00:02:43.560 Friday this coming year, Freakier Friday, and I checked and 42 00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:46.400 Hailey Hudson will be in that movie as Peg, so 43 00:02:46.520 --> 00:02:49.879 maybe she'll be able to, you know, be a queer 44 00:02:49.919 --> 00:02:53.879 root for a whole new generation of baby gays. But 45 00:02:53.960 --> 00:02:57.560 thank you for sending that one in, Niki, and so 46 00:02:57.840 --> 00:03:03.120 without further ado, we will hop into this episode. My 47 00:03:03.240 --> 00:03:06.159 guest today is mary Ellen Kpik. Hi. 48 00:03:06.319 --> 00:03:09.400 Mary Ellen, Hi, Lauren, it's great to be here. 49 00:03:10.360 --> 00:03:14.199 I'm so appreciative to you for doing this. Mary Ellen 50 00:03:14.240 --> 00:03:18.360 is in New Mexico and recently had a storm where 51 00:03:18.439 --> 00:03:20.919 the electricity went out. It dropped down to I think 52 00:03:20.960 --> 00:03:25.039 you said twenty seven, but it's all come back. The 53 00:03:25.120 --> 00:03:28.479 snow has stopped, so we are I'm so glad we're 54 00:03:28.520 --> 00:03:32.840 able to do the episode as planned. Mary Ellen has 55 00:03:32.879 --> 00:03:37.439 had an unbelievably rich and full life. So I'll say 56 00:03:37.439 --> 00:03:40.120 that the kind of impetus for you being on the 57 00:03:40.120 --> 00:03:43.240 podcast is a book of poetry you wrote that is 58 00:03:43.280 --> 00:03:45.400 going to be coming out at the time that this 59 00:03:45.479 --> 00:03:47.759 episode airs. It'll be out the end of the week. 60 00:03:47.800 --> 00:03:50.879 It'll be out very shortly. Do you know the exact 61 00:03:50.960 --> 00:03:52.000 what's the exact date. 62 00:03:52.000 --> 00:03:55.560 That the November fifteenth, November fifteenth. 63 00:03:55.680 --> 00:03:58.080 Yeah, excellent, And at the end of this episode we 64 00:03:58.159 --> 00:04:01.439 will well it's available on all platforms, but I will 65 00:04:01.560 --> 00:04:04.960 I'll put all the links and we will get into that. 66 00:04:05.080 --> 00:04:08.560 Mary Ellen is also going to read some poetry from 67 00:04:08.599 --> 00:04:12.400 that book. But Mary Ellen is not just a poet. 68 00:04:12.479 --> 00:04:16.560 She has authored other books as well as she she 69 00:04:17.040 --> 00:04:21.759 has been a professor, she has been on committee, she 70 00:04:22.319 --> 00:04:26.519 has a very long resume. So we will we will 71 00:04:26.560 --> 00:04:29.319 get to those things as they come up in the story. 72 00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:34.240 But I'm so so thrilled to have you here. Yeah, 73 00:04:34.439 --> 00:04:37.480 just thank you, thank you for doing this. I'm really appreciative. 74 00:04:37.680 --> 00:04:42.600 It's a pleasure to be here. And I really look 75 00:04:42.680 --> 00:04:47.279 forward to talking about with the election what happened, because 76 00:04:47.319 --> 00:04:49.560 I've been doing a lot of thinking about it, both 77 00:04:49.560 --> 00:04:52.759 as an activist, as a writer and or as a 78 00:04:52.800 --> 00:04:57.120 writer activist and trying to sort out directions from here. 79 00:04:57.959 --> 00:05:02.480 Yeah, I hear that Mary Allen was saying she actually 80 00:05:02.560 --> 00:05:05.879 woke up this morning at five am and had so much, 81 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:07.680 you know, going on in her head that she wrote 82 00:05:08.199 --> 00:05:11.439 she wrote a piece that, uh, just kind of about 83 00:05:11.560 --> 00:05:16.279 the current moment. Yeah. Just I'm really looking forward to 84 00:05:16.360 --> 00:05:20.600 speaking to you about all all of the horrors. But 85 00:05:21.360 --> 00:05:23.639 before that, we're going to talk about you, and we're 86 00:05:23.639 --> 00:05:27.519 going to talk about your life experiences and your journey 87 00:05:27.560 --> 00:05:30.240 and and sort of, yeah, let's have some joy before 88 00:05:30.279 --> 00:05:33.360 we kind of get into all of the the less 89 00:05:33.560 --> 00:05:38.199 joyful stuff. Mary Ellen, how do you identify in terms 90 00:05:38.199 --> 00:05:40.519 of the words you like to use for yourself? 91 00:05:41.279 --> 00:05:50.879 Human being? First, beautiful? I'm a relapsed Methodist and I'm 92 00:05:50.879 --> 00:05:56.959 an an aging Methodist. Of that, you could put that 93 00:05:57.079 --> 00:05:58.399 in any order you want. 94 00:05:59.079 --> 00:06:05.519 Oh my god, that's incredible. Okay, okay, relapsed slash aging Methodist. 95 00:06:06.399 --> 00:06:08.680 I love that. Are do you do you want to? 96 00:06:09.439 --> 00:06:12.560 I live in La so you never ask a lady 97 00:06:12.680 --> 00:06:14.199 her age, But do you want to? 98 00:06:14.360 --> 00:06:16.560 Sure? I am proud of it. I'm eighty two. I'll 99 00:06:16.600 --> 00:06:17.879 be eighty three in December. 100 00:06:18.279 --> 00:06:22.759 Amazing, amazing. Yeah. Yeah, And that's again why I'm so 101 00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:25.879 thrilled to speak to you, because it's like you, gosh, 102 00:06:25.920 --> 00:06:31.600 you've lived through some terrible administrations. We can yeah, I 103 00:06:31.639 --> 00:06:35.519 mean I barely remember Reagan. I was very young, but like, 104 00:06:35.600 --> 00:06:39.439 I feel like that's that's where I tap out knowledge wise, 105 00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:44.480 So oh my goodness. But yeah, but I said, I 106 00:06:44.519 --> 00:06:46.160 said we were going to get to all that later. 107 00:06:46.240 --> 00:06:48.240 So I want to keep my promise. We're going to 108 00:06:48.319 --> 00:06:53.160 talk about you. Uh yeah, Where where does it begin? 109 00:06:53.360 --> 00:06:57.360 What do you consider your coming out story? 110 00:06:57.600 --> 00:07:00.600 And you can start, let me just give a little background. 111 00:07:00.759 --> 00:07:02.399 In fact, what I would love to do is just 112 00:07:02.480 --> 00:07:03.920 read the first time you want a book. 113 00:07:04.040 --> 00:07:06.040 That would be fantastic, because that kind of. 114 00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:09.240 Sets the scene for everything else I've struggled with the 115 00:07:09.240 --> 00:07:10.000 whole rest. 116 00:07:09.759 --> 00:07:10.920 Of my life. 117 00:07:11.120 --> 00:07:14.560 And the name of the poem is called Dancing Class. 118 00:07:15.839 --> 00:07:18.759 And I'll just start out and read it and we 119 00:07:18.800 --> 00:07:21.519 can talk about it afterwards if you want. But we 120 00:07:21.720 --> 00:07:25.480 danced in the school basement. Strauss Waltz is mingled with 121 00:07:25.519 --> 00:07:28.839 the smells of chocolate milk and stale peanut butter sandwiches, 122 00:07:29.480 --> 00:07:33.040 bits of wonderbread like paste, wax smeared across the floor. 123 00:07:34.079 --> 00:07:37.560 We ducked bare bulbs that swung too low, making awkward 124 00:07:37.560 --> 00:07:42.319 shadows on the posts. Steam in the pipes beat its 125 00:07:42.360 --> 00:07:48.040 own dance tunes. I dreaded Tuesday afternoons. Boys choose partners, 126 00:07:48.759 --> 00:07:51.600 red faced and nervous. They eyed us from across the room, 127 00:07:51.680 --> 00:07:55.480 then jostled for the few girls wearing bras The rest 128 00:07:55.519 --> 00:07:58.600 of us lined the wall and waited to be touched 129 00:07:58.920 --> 00:08:02.920 or paired by some five eleven in my socks and 130 00:08:03.040 --> 00:08:06.519 flat chested, I was never chosen. I danced with our 131 00:08:06.560 --> 00:08:10.079 teacher or Bert as fat as I was tall, who 132 00:08:10.160 --> 00:08:12.639 later did time and raw way for running down an 133 00:08:12.680 --> 00:08:17.319 old lady in his forty eight Dodge convertible. Elaine was 134 00:08:17.360 --> 00:08:21.480 always picked. She wore thirty four b in the sixth grade, 135 00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:25.680 was fast, Jewish and my best friend. For her, I 136 00:08:25.759 --> 00:08:29.959 stepped on cracks and once on a dare farted in class. 137 00:08:30.480 --> 00:08:34.759 Her father, a widower, hired housekeepers with carrot hare, who 138 00:08:34.759 --> 00:08:38.919 told us dirty stories. One sang to herself, don't ever 139 00:08:39.039 --> 00:08:41.840 let them get you in bed until you've been to town. 140 00:08:42.919 --> 00:08:47.039 Elaine once told me scared boys only fuck you when 141 00:08:47.039 --> 00:08:51.320 you bleed, or was it the other way around. I 142 00:08:51.440 --> 00:08:55.600 ran home from school one day in tears a shame, screaming, shit, 143 00:08:55.799 --> 00:08:59.399 you shit, you bitch. Across the street. Elaine had let 144 00:08:59.399 --> 00:09:03.399 a chorse che that afternoon. Mary Ella has no fella, 145 00:09:03.639 --> 00:09:09.320 tiny tits and giant feet. Boys take the lead one 146 00:09:09.519 --> 00:09:14.039 and two and dip and no she dips, burt, not you. 147 00:09:15.879 --> 00:09:18.840 The needles of their laughter stuck and warped. Our moves 148 00:09:19.559 --> 00:09:26.200 chosen or not chosen. We measured time by twos, and 149 00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:30.759 that to me kind of sums up this whole forced 150 00:09:30.840 --> 00:09:34.799 heterosexuality that we all of us were raised up in. 151 00:09:36.039 --> 00:09:41.159 And you know, my story, so to speak, really builds 152 00:09:41.200 --> 00:09:46.360 from that. I met my husband in graduate school and 153 00:09:47.120 --> 00:09:49.919 it was a good marriage. We fell in love and 154 00:09:50.679 --> 00:09:55.600 I deeply loved and respected him. We were married for 155 00:09:55.639 --> 00:09:59.919 over a decade and we divorced mainly because we were 156 00:10:00.120 --> 00:10:02.679 we had different kinds of things we wanted to be doing, 157 00:10:04.000 --> 00:10:06.759 how we wanted to live our lives, not because of 158 00:10:06.799 --> 00:10:11.720 my sexuality. We worked very hard to stay connected, not 159 00:10:11.879 --> 00:10:14.519 least because of his kids, whom I loved and who 160 00:10:14.519 --> 00:10:18.720 are still in our lives and my partners in my life. 161 00:10:19.080 --> 00:10:22.799 And so was Mike. I for years have called him 162 00:10:22.960 --> 00:10:29.519 my husband and our husband, and he and Sue have 163 00:10:29.679 --> 00:10:32.240 gotten to be over the years good friends. In fact, 164 00:10:32.320 --> 00:10:35.039 he really cares a great deal about her soon as 165 00:10:35.080 --> 00:10:38.840 your part and I feel very proud that we've been 166 00:10:38.879 --> 00:10:41.720 able to have that kind of connection that we build 167 00:10:41.759 --> 00:10:48.320 onto it. I had different relationships after the divorce, including 168 00:10:48.360 --> 00:10:51.720 my first lesbian lover that I was so immersed in 169 00:10:51.799 --> 00:10:54.000 my work at that point, I was helping to start 170 00:10:54.039 --> 00:10:59.120 a national coalition of research, policy and activist centers in 171 00:10:59.200 --> 00:11:02.120 acteen eighty one, the National Council for Research and Women. 172 00:11:02.480 --> 00:11:06.120 And you know, I'd gone from teaching in a community 173 00:11:06.159 --> 00:11:10.200 college in Newark to Princeton, where I was asked to 174 00:11:10.240 --> 00:11:13.480 run the Continuing End program. I thought, I was, you know, 175 00:11:13.600 --> 00:11:18.559 the culture shock, I mean, good grief. Went from a 176 00:11:18.600 --> 00:11:23.320 world of open door admission black and Hispanic students to 177 00:11:23.480 --> 00:11:28.799 elite white, mostly white students, and it was it was 178 00:11:28.919 --> 00:11:31.440 just culture shock. I guess it's the easiest way to 179 00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:35.159 say it. Even though I was living in Princeton, my 180 00:11:35.279 --> 00:11:40.360 husband was then on the faculty English department, and I 181 00:11:40.440 --> 00:11:43.600 knew the university to some extent, But that experience at 182 00:11:43.600 --> 00:11:50.440 Princeton really taught me so much about dysfunctional organizations and 183 00:11:50.519 --> 00:11:54.759 this all the stuff you shouldn't talk about. In fact, 184 00:11:54.799 --> 00:11:57.120 my next book, that hopefully will be my last book, 185 00:11:57.200 --> 00:12:00.720 is called The Power of Naming, and it's try to 186 00:12:00.720 --> 00:12:05.519 get at why is it that there's stuff in an 187 00:12:05.559 --> 00:12:11.000 institution or organization that everybody in the organization knows janitor 188 00:12:11.159 --> 00:12:14.559 to the CEO yep, but nobody wants to talk about it. 189 00:12:14.799 --> 00:12:17.360 Yeah, the open. I mean, I feel like open secrets 190 00:12:17.440 --> 00:12:23.039 is just a theme throughout America all queer people. Like 191 00:12:23.519 --> 00:12:28.080 the concept of open secrets is such a nefarious part 192 00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:32.799 of like our culture and our existence. And I know 193 00:12:32.879 --> 00:12:37.200 we're trying to chip away at that, but god, it 194 00:12:37.279 --> 00:12:41.720 is so ingrained in every I don't know if it's 195 00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:44.879 an American thing or in global thing, but good god 196 00:12:45.000 --> 00:12:47.639 it is. I want, okay, I want to I want 197 00:12:47.639 --> 00:12:52.159 to go back and first say that poem is this 198 00:12:52.240 --> 00:12:55.879 is your first book of poetry. I mean, you've been 199 00:12:55.879 --> 00:12:57.759 writing for a long time, but I'm just like, I 200 00:12:57.799 --> 00:12:59.720 can't believe that's You're just like, let me read my 201 00:13:00.080 --> 00:13:04.320 first poem. It's just really really beautiful and just like, 202 00:13:05.320 --> 00:13:08.639 who really capture? I had to take dance in school 203 00:13:09.320 --> 00:13:12.480 when I was little, and thank god, we moved right 204 00:13:12.720 --> 00:13:14.679 before I went to an all girls' school. I went 205 00:13:14.720 --> 00:13:17.879 to Chapin If you know Chapin from Coach. 206 00:13:17.879 --> 00:13:19.159 Yeah, sure, yeah. 207 00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:22.360 So I went there and we had dance class. I 208 00:13:22.360 --> 00:13:25.039 think it was on Tuesdays. Ironically it was once a week. 209 00:13:25.159 --> 00:13:28.200 But I moved the year before we were going to 210 00:13:28.240 --> 00:13:31.480 start having dances with the boys, so I really lucked out. 211 00:13:32.600 --> 00:13:36.480 But just the dance class in general was so awful 212 00:13:36.639 --> 00:13:40.440 and stressful, and like, I just hated. I hated being 213 00:13:40.639 --> 00:13:42.679 like anything where I have to pay attention to my body, 214 00:13:42.759 --> 00:13:45.639 I'm like, no, thank you. So hearing all of that 215 00:13:45.919 --> 00:13:48.919 and then imagining boys in the equation is like a 216 00:13:49.000 --> 00:13:54.080 million times worse. When did you write that poem? Because 217 00:13:54.080 --> 00:13:58.919 obviously it's about when you're quite young, but when when ish. 218 00:13:59.679 --> 00:14:03.120 I made the mistake of not dating these carefully when 219 00:14:03.159 --> 00:14:07.399 I wrote them, I would say it's likely probably probably 220 00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:11.879 in the early eighties, sometime around in there. You know, 221 00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:16.360 after Mike and I divorced, I had more time on 222 00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:20.200 my hands, not a lot, but and I was trying 223 00:14:20.200 --> 00:14:23.519 to work my way through understanding what I was going 224 00:14:23.559 --> 00:14:26.679 through and what we had been through, what I was 225 00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:31.720 putting him through, and some of that was a way 226 00:14:32.480 --> 00:14:34.919 some of the poetry writing at that point was a 227 00:14:34.919 --> 00:14:38.039 way of kind of come to grips with all of that. 228 00:14:39.159 --> 00:14:41.519 I mean, he was an amazing human It still is. 229 00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:47.159 And he was never anything but supportive of my work 230 00:14:47.320 --> 00:14:51.279 and me, and he was very much a loving human being. 231 00:14:51.399 --> 00:14:54.759 And I very much respect him and always will. And 232 00:14:55.320 --> 00:15:01.039 the whole process of that divorce was incredible difficult is 233 00:15:01.080 --> 00:15:05.480 obviously any breakup of any relationship is. But I think 234 00:15:05.519 --> 00:15:07.679 we did it well, and I think we both felt 235 00:15:07.679 --> 00:15:11.840 good about it relatively speaking, after the fact, and we 236 00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:16.159 really worked hard to stay in touch. We still do. 237 00:15:17.480 --> 00:15:19.440 I think that's proof that you did it well. 238 00:15:19.679 --> 00:15:24.759 Yeah, I mean it's not easy. You know, the whole 239 00:15:24.799 --> 00:15:30.519 experience of getting a divorce and then trying to figure out, okay, 240 00:15:30.519 --> 00:15:33.759 where do I go now? You know that was right 241 00:15:33.759 --> 00:15:39.440 about the same time we started the council, that Mike 242 00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:43.759 and I had separated and moving into that work was 243 00:15:43.799 --> 00:15:46.799 all consuming. I mean, that's what I did twenty four 244 00:15:46.840 --> 00:15:51.279 to seven for you know, fifteen years straight with nothing 245 00:15:51.320 --> 00:15:54.240 else in the middle of it. But I shouldn't say 246 00:15:54.320 --> 00:15:56.919 nothing else, because that's the whole point of this interview. 247 00:16:00.879 --> 00:16:05.840 But and in terms of your own awareness of your 248 00:16:06.200 --> 00:16:11.039 sexuality or attraction, I mean, listening to that poem was 249 00:16:11.120 --> 00:16:13.919 a Laine like, so she's a best friend. Is she 250 00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:17.879 also someone who either at the time or looking back, 251 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:22.120 you're like, oh, this was an early crush or like 252 00:16:22.240 --> 00:16:24.480 something that. No, No, so she's just a friend. 253 00:16:24.679 --> 00:16:27.440 No. I had one childhood friend that there was some 254 00:16:27.639 --> 00:16:31.559 sense of you know, connection to that was a little 255 00:16:31.559 --> 00:16:34.080 bit more. I wouldn't even call it sexual because we 256 00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:34.720 were really. 257 00:16:34.840 --> 00:16:39.639 No when you're young. Yeah, it's at that point, exactly exactly. Yeah, yeah, 258 00:16:39.679 --> 00:16:41.960 and I know that. In the I think it's on 259 00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:44.279 the back of your book. It talks a lot about 260 00:16:44.399 --> 00:16:48.120 not having the language for things that that you're feeling, 261 00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:51.000 which I think now we're a lot better, but there's 262 00:16:51.039 --> 00:16:53.399 still a lot of things that we don't have language for. 263 00:16:53.480 --> 00:16:55.639 And yet when you're that young, and this is what 264 00:16:55.720 --> 00:16:59.399 I don't think people on the right, et cetera, understand 265 00:16:59.480 --> 00:17:04.599 like these things aren't sexual, Like there, you're young, you don't. 266 00:17:04.680 --> 00:17:09.640 It's just like it's oh, it's so frustrating that the 267 00:17:09.680 --> 00:17:11.400 people can look at like a little boy and be 268 00:17:11.480 --> 00:17:13.039 like he's going to be a lady killer, and they 269 00:17:13.079 --> 00:17:15.319 under like that's not sexual. But then if there's the 270 00:17:15.400 --> 00:17:19.640 same sex like crush or anything that gets called sexual, 271 00:17:19.680 --> 00:17:22.359 and it's like, no, there is, there's no idea of 272 00:17:22.359 --> 00:17:25.839 that when you're that young, Like it's just responding honestly to. 273 00:17:25.799 --> 00:17:29.240 Fu Currently that's what's driving my response to this election, 274 00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:32.880 because you know, at some level, we really are living 275 00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:37.440 in the dying patriarchy. Oh yeah, and the patriarchy gets 276 00:17:37.480 --> 00:17:40.440 set from the time a baby is born pink, pink 277 00:17:40.519 --> 00:17:43.359 or blue, and you know, Bose and you know, that 278 00:17:43.559 --> 00:17:47.319 just gets that's it, and it's like the whole culture, 279 00:17:48.200 --> 00:17:51.799 for whatever crazy reasons we do it, The whole culture 280 00:17:51.880 --> 00:17:58.880 moves toward slotting kids into male female when in reality, 281 00:17:58.920 --> 00:18:02.039 and I love Audrey and rich is spectrum idea. It's 282 00:18:02.119 --> 00:18:08.079 really a whole sexuality spectrum, personality spectrum. Any of us 283 00:18:08.200 --> 00:18:11.920 can if we you know, are comfortable with ourselves, can 284 00:18:11.960 --> 00:18:15.200 fall anywhere in any place on lae that spectrum. And 285 00:18:15.400 --> 00:18:18.400 I think sometimes, I mean, I got a number of 286 00:18:18.440 --> 00:18:21.160 gay male friends, and they have always talked about it 287 00:18:21.200 --> 00:18:25.519 being much more explicitly, they being much more explicitly aware 288 00:18:25.599 --> 00:18:29.240 from a very young age they were gay and especially 289 00:18:29.400 --> 00:18:32.079 countering the work that you know, the world they were 290 00:18:33.400 --> 00:18:36.680 trying to move into. But you know, I think for 291 00:18:36.759 --> 00:18:39.799 women it's even more nuanced sometimes. 292 00:18:39.839 --> 00:18:44.599 Oh absolutely yeah, because we're we are allowed quote unquote 293 00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:48.000 to show and experience emotions in a way that is 294 00:18:48.079 --> 00:18:52.119 like really discouraged and voys. So those lines, That's why 295 00:18:52.119 --> 00:18:55.720 I was asking about Elaine, because those lines between friendship 296 00:18:55.799 --> 00:19:00.319 love and like attraction love can get blurred sometimes, which 297 00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:03.920 is very confusing for many of us, and especially for 298 00:19:04.039 --> 00:19:07.920 folks who who are for women who are bisexual, because 299 00:19:07.960 --> 00:19:10.759 it's like, then what do you do with that? If 300 00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:13.440 you're feeling these things? But it's like, does everybody feel 301 00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:15.440 these things? I also feel these things for boys, like 302 00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:17.519 but I feel them for girls. But is it different 303 00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:19.680 with girls? Because it's it's like there's just so much 304 00:19:19.720 --> 00:19:20.599 to parse. 305 00:19:20.359 --> 00:19:22.680 Out in our culture. 306 00:19:22.759 --> 00:19:25.960 Does not make it easy, Oh god, no, it actively 307 00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:28.240 discourages it and tells you to be afraid of it. 308 00:19:28.599 --> 00:19:32.119 So that's not that's not a great setup for success. 309 00:19:33.480 --> 00:19:37.240 But in terms of your own kind of awareness of 310 00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:42.559 these feelings that would you would later understand as sexuality. 311 00:19:42.680 --> 00:19:45.799 But again, when you're younger, we don't have that word. 312 00:19:45.839 --> 00:19:49.640 It isn't even necessarily sexual. Do you do you remember 313 00:19:49.799 --> 00:19:52.799 like when ish it started to occur to you, was 314 00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:55.359 it immediately like I'm not sure what this is, but 315 00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:57.640 I know I need to hide it? Like what kind 316 00:19:57.680 --> 00:19:58.720 of I've. 317 00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:00.640 Never feeled I needed to hide it anything in my 318 00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:04.480 whole life. And you know, I attribute my mother to 319 00:20:04.640 --> 00:20:07.920 you know, for really helping me to get that way. 320 00:20:09.079 --> 00:20:11.759 The reality is I've had a big mouth, my whole life, 321 00:20:11.799 --> 00:20:13.799 and I've always said what I've thought. It got me 322 00:20:13.799 --> 00:20:15.720 in a lot of trouble when I was younger. 323 00:20:17.039 --> 00:20:18.799 It's called sassy. 324 00:20:19.000 --> 00:20:25.519 You're being You're sassying me perennial complaint about Mary Ellen. Right. 325 00:20:26.039 --> 00:20:31.720 But as as I after my divorce and moving into 326 00:20:31.759 --> 00:20:33.559 that work, I got to know a lot of really 327 00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:38.039 wonderful women of all varieties of sexuality. And I got 328 00:20:38.839 --> 00:20:40.799 for a while at least I was sort of the hope, 329 00:20:40.920 --> 00:20:42.480 the token heterosexual. 330 00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:45.279 Ah yeah, And a lot of Christmas. 331 00:20:44.799 --> 00:20:51.440 Parties that were most not all, but mostly lesbians, and 332 00:20:51.799 --> 00:20:56.640 I beloved lesbian elder now and she's older than I am. 333 00:20:57.200 --> 00:20:59.519 Once said to me, we used to, you know, she 334 00:20:59.720 --> 00:21:04.640 was the coolest person I'd ever met. She her name 335 00:21:04.680 --> 00:21:10.880 was Kate Stimpson. She founded Signs, which is a journal, 336 00:21:11.240 --> 00:21:14.480 one of the first feminist journals in the country, still 337 00:21:14.480 --> 00:21:17.839 going strong. And she came to Princeton when I was 338 00:21:17.880 --> 00:21:22.480 there as a visiting hot shot for a couple of days, 339 00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:29.200 and I heard her give a talk and I thought, huh, 340 00:21:29.240 --> 00:21:34.799 I can do that. We connected, We got to know 341 00:21:34.880 --> 00:21:37.200 each other. I watched her in action. She charmed the 342 00:21:37.240 --> 00:21:41.960 president of the university very quickly. At a party after that, 343 00:21:42.599 --> 00:21:45.559 and I was like, holy shit, I mean this woman 344 00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:50.920 was really interesting. Anyway, she lived in New York on 345 00:21:51.039 --> 00:21:53.519 the Bowery right, which was like the coolest place in 346 00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:57.519 the world back then, before that was really CD back 347 00:21:57.519 --> 00:21:59.640 then it was literally you know, where a lot of 348 00:21:59.720 --> 00:22:02.880 drunk spent most of their time. Kate had a loft 349 00:22:02.920 --> 00:22:07.200 in the Bowery and she was partners with an Australian 350 00:22:07.240 --> 00:22:10.559 woman who left her marriage in Australia and had four kids. 351 00:22:11.720 --> 00:22:15.440 And I didn't know that at the time that she 352 00:22:15.640 --> 00:22:18.079 was involved with Kate, but I figured she was a 353 00:22:18.160 --> 00:22:23.359 lesbian and we really you know, bonded, and she invited 354 00:22:23.359 --> 00:22:28.519 me to well, let me back up. I drove her 355 00:22:28.519 --> 00:22:31.960 into the city. She invited me up to see her loft, 356 00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:35.640 and I was like, oh, this is so cool. This 357 00:22:35.799 --> 00:22:37.680 is you know, I was living in Princeton in an 358 00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:43.319 ordinary apartment and here she's sophisticated you. Anyway, she at 359 00:22:43.319 --> 00:22:46.000 that point that I have got to introduce you to 360 00:22:46.119 --> 00:22:49.640 my partner, Liniz, who was running a continuing education program 361 00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:53.400 at Brooklyn College at the same time. So you know, anything, 362 00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:55.000 one thing lets you another. We got to be very 363 00:22:55.000 --> 00:22:58.039 close friends, and Kate ultimately went on to become the 364 00:22:58.160 --> 00:23:01.480 dean of the Graduates school at NYU. She was a 365 00:23:01.519 --> 00:23:05.240 dean at Rutgers. I mean, she really had an illustrious career. 366 00:23:05.880 --> 00:23:12.119 But she at one of the Christmas parties shortly after 367 00:23:12.200 --> 00:23:15.079 all this, after we met, she looked at me. She said, 368 00:23:15.319 --> 00:23:20.400 you are just such a hopeless heterosexual, maurieal Wow. 369 00:23:20.200 --> 00:23:22.839 She didn't you didn't ping her radar. 370 00:23:24.200 --> 00:23:26.759 It was so funny. And anyway, at that point I 371 00:23:26.839 --> 00:23:29.880 probably was. You know, I was involved in a number 372 00:23:29.880 --> 00:23:34.920 of relationships with men, and you know, some of them 373 00:23:34.960 --> 00:23:37.279 were all of the all of the guys I was 374 00:23:37.319 --> 00:23:41.359 with were quite interesting, and most of them were intellectuals. 375 00:23:41.359 --> 00:23:44.359 In most of them, you know, it was like, really 376 00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:48.880 do I need this? You know, no, no, no. So 377 00:23:50.119 --> 00:23:54.079 the bottom line was, from there I got an invitation 378 00:23:54.319 --> 00:24:00.920 to another mutual friend's the fiftieth birthday party at britn 379 00:24:01.079 --> 00:24:06.559 Mar College, where they were lovely, and so I went 380 00:24:07.799 --> 00:24:14.640 and that's where I met Sue. And that's perfect. They 381 00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:17.640 had rented the whole Graduate of State. It was it 382 00:24:17.720 --> 00:24:20.799 was the former few estate at britt Mark. They had 383 00:24:20.799 --> 00:24:26.160 rented the whole estate for Adrian's fiftieth birthday party, and uh, 384 00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:30.599 Sue to this day says I was the strangest person 385 00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:37.839 she ever met. Curly afro kind of hair, and I 386 00:24:37.920 --> 00:24:40.039 was wearing a purple jump suit and had a blue 387 00:24:40.119 --> 00:24:42.240 clip in my hair because I just washed it. And 388 00:24:42.599 --> 00:24:45.160 I was leaping down the hall when I first saw Adrian, 389 00:24:45.240 --> 00:24:47.960 and Sue was talking to her, and it was like, 390 00:24:48.480 --> 00:24:55.440 who is this weird person? Anyway, the birthday party was mixed, 391 00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:58.559 both hetero and you know, gay women and any number 392 00:24:58.559 --> 00:25:02.599 of other people in between. Some kids were there. A 393 00:25:02.680 --> 00:25:10.440 few of our friends had had babies by then. Anyway, 394 00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:18.319 the friend who was partners with Adrian had organized a 395 00:25:18.359 --> 00:25:22.359 trip in the Tetons, hiking Women's Hike in the Tetons, 396 00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:26.119 and Sue and I discovered that we were both signed 397 00:25:26.200 --> 00:25:30.200 up to go on that, and Sue rolled her eyes, thinking, 398 00:25:30.279 --> 00:25:32.680 Oh my god, is this really what we're going to 399 00:25:32.759 --> 00:25:39.519 be in for. It was we went on the hike, 400 00:25:41.839 --> 00:25:43.960 It was I think about a ten day hike. 401 00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:46.160