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Speaker 1: The pattern of American religion basically picks up certain Old

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World patterns, but patterns which in the Old World were

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kind of on the fringe. And then what America does

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or has done, is to take these these sort of

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fringe patterns and carry them forward and actually, you know,

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make them sort of successful in mainstream. But in order

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to become successful in mainstream, one of the things that

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they have to do is they have to they have

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to shed some of the more let's say, the more

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enchanted aspects of the European fringe, which in traditional forms

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of religion have ways of being integrated. But whenever an

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American religion goes mainstream, it has to secularize in certain ways.

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So basically that's the whole case that I want to make.

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And the reason that I'm interested in Mormonism is I

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am personally far enough away from it that I can

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It's an interesting test case. It's like an interesting kind

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of control group.

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Speaker 2: This is Jonathan Peeshel. Welcome to the symbolic world. So

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hello everyone.

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Speaker 3: We are back here with Universal History with Dekon Seraphim,

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and this is the day that we are supposed to

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talk about Mormonism. But just before we started recording the koond,

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Seraphim just started to panic or to say, I don't know,

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I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Like what's going to happen? And so I don't even

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know what is what is it going? What's gonna happen

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with get okay? Well that's what's going on. What's going on?

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Speaker 1: So the first thing I want to say is that

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I'm very afraid today. I'm very, very afraid. And the

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reason that I'm afraid is h I probably have more

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people reach out to me about the last two episodes

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than has ever it happened with anything I've done. When

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I say reach out to me, I mean like hunting

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down my cell phone number to give me a call,

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or shipping me books in the mail, or sending me

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like DMS being like, Hey, you don't really understand Mormonism.

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Let me hook you up with somebody who'll like, really

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explained Mormonism to you. I was like, anyway, it was.

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The response was a little overwhelming, and then there were

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just so many angry people in the comments. I do

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not normally read the comments, but last video, my goodness,

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people just got their noses all out of joint. And

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I think part of it is, you know, I actually

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I do not. I'm the sort of person I do

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not mind being disagreed with, but I hate being misunderstood.

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And so I want to actually begin and I'm going

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to really see if I can just like do this

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to stall for time for forty minutes and then be like, oh, whoops.

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That was another episode we avoided talking about Mormonism. So

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the problem with talking about the history of early Mormonism

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is that you go and you read biographies, and you

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read different books and things but written by Mormons, and

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read things written by non Mormons and everything, and then

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you say, okay, well, Joseph Smith was this kind of

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person and he went and did these things, and here's

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the historical record. And then people do not enjoy that,

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and they say, no, he didn't actually do or say

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any of those things, and and so that like even

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the literature is just I mean, it's just an absolute

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minefield out there for Mormonism. And this is and it's

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actually quite remarkable that it's the case, given the fact

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that he's you know, lived much more recently than like

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biblical figures or early Church fathers or you know, even

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George Washington, like we you know, it's easier to say

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things about George Washington than it is about Joseph Smith,

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because Joseph Smith is such a polarizing figure. For one thing,

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and there's actually different lots of different branches that kind

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of split off as the Mormons make their way west.

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There's different branches that split off, and some of those,

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you know, branches were founded by people his brother, people

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like one of his many wives, and those branches they

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retained things including like letters, papers, writings, things like this

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that you know, they believe, you know that there's there's

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no reason to doubt those things were authentically created by

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Joseph Smith. And but then you know, other people say no,

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that those you know, just a bunch of schismatics, you know.

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And and so the problem is all the Mormons have

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reached out to me in the last few months, every

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single one of them, all of them, and.

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Speaker 4: It's been pretty it's been pretty overwhelming.

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Speaker 1: And of course also all of the ex Mormons have

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reached out to me and and said, hey, here's a

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really good book that you should read. This really helped

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me understand the history of the Olds Church and so on.

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So I have been inundated with books and links and

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podcasts it's been scary and and I don't now. What

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I will say is that none of these people have

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been rude, so it's not scientific levels. Yeah, yeah, good

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on all of you guys for you know, more current Mormons,

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ex Mormons, reformed LDS, you know, different groups. Everybody this

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resout has been quite kind, so thank you for that.

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Uh but the just the sheer amount of stuff that

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you have to kind of wade through to even sort

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of piece together the narrative of Joseph Smith's life other

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than the just the really basic he moved here on

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this date, and even some of that stuff is kind

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of hotly argued about. It's quite it's quite intimidating, and uh,

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I you know, so I'm gonna I'm gonna try.

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Speaker 2: Really maybe you asked for it. I'm just saying, yeah,

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I'm not.

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Speaker 1: You know, it is so I I understand that I

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was just like, hey, you know, Mormonism has these interesting

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patterns that seem to be the patterns of you know,

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other American religion. And then it's like the yeah, it's

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like the meme where you know, the guy opens his

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computer and it's all football news and just like all

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the football's just yeah, that's that is what has happened

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to me in the last few months. So I'm going

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to try to talk about this, but i want to

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kind of give a little context, a little more context

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for why I'm interested in looking at this. This is

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not a channel where we just like go debunk other religions.

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That's not the point of what we do in the

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symbolic world. Obviously, if you want to know Jonathan and

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I believe, you can look up the Nice and Creed,

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you know, just like it's you know, we're we're obviously

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we're Orthodox Christians. We're not making any bones about that.

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But what I'm interested here in here is not making

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a big point about whether something is true or false.

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Obviously I believe Orthodoxy is true. Obviously I believe that

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Mormonism is false. But what I what I'm the thing

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that I'm I'm interested in talking about here is is

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this idea that American religion seems to follow a certain pattern.

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And lots of people have noticed this, people who are

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sympathetic to it, people who are again it. As we

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say down here, I was down here in the sunny sunlands,

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except that it is currently you're waiting for snow, ice

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is falling from the sky right now, which is not

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a thing that should happen where I live. Yeah, I

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think we're due to for like twelve to eighteen inches

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of snow this weekend, which for you guys is like

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a light dusting.

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Speaker 4: For us, that is the end of days, all right.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, so the thing that I'm interested in is

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this pattern of American religion. And the argument that I

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want to make is that the pattern of American religion

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basically picks up certain Old World patterns, but patterns which

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in the Old World were kind of on the fringe.

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And then what America does or has done, is to

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take these these sort of fringe patterns and carry them

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forward and actually, you know, make them sort of successful

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in mainstream. But in order to become successful in mainstream,

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one of the things that they have to do is

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they have to they have to shed some of the

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more let's say, the more enchanted aspects of the European fringe,

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which in traditional forms of religion have ways of being integrated.

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But whenever an American religion goes mainstream, it has to

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secularize in certain ways. So that's the that's basically, that's

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the whole case that I want to make. And I

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think the reason that I'm interested in Mormonism is because

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it is it's like a I am personally far enough

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away from it that I can It's it's an interesting

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test case, right, It's like an interesting kind of ConTroll group.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 1: So if I talk about Southern Baptists, there's always going

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to be like some certain amount of like some of

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that is going to be personal for me, right, But

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when I talk about Mormonism and the various groups that

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split off, I know somebody's going to be mad already

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that I've been using the word Mormonism instead of calling

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them the Latter day Saints and all this stuff.

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Speaker 4: But anyway, broad.

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Speaker 1: Term, if I, if I, if you know, with that,

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with those particular groups, right, you can see the same

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patterns playing out, but it's in first of all, kind

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of an extroverted way, you know, from like a Southern

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Baptist perspective, right, it's an extroverted way. Obviously you have

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like lots of polygamy, lots of shootouts at the jailhouse,

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things like this. Although I'm sure some Southern Baptists had

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shootouts at a jail house. I will I will tell you.

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My old church, which is the second oldest Baptist church

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in Texas. They never had a shootout, but there was

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one time I wanted in the eight there was like

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shootout potential. So it's in the in the the meeting

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minutes of that. There was one Sunday where the pastor

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preached with a pair of revolvers on the pulpit because

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because the the comanches were in the area kind of rating,

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and it's like we might have to like go out

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and like shoot it out with some comanches during Sunday

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morning worship. So in any case, I love stuff like

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that so much. So that's that's why the interest in Mormonism.

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So what I'm going to try to do is talk

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through some of the stuff, and I'm going to be

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looking at it not from a perspective of here's the

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entire history of Mormonism with every you know, like there's

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there's books for that, there's biographies for that. You can

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get that stuff from lots of different perspectives. That's not

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what we're trying to do today. What we're trying to

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do today is to look at the ways that the

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European fringe religion survives and thrives in America in kind

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of these really unexpected ways. So that being said, a

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lot of what I'm going to be talking about today

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in reference to Mormonism will come from.

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Speaker 4: And I can already hear people getting angry about this

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in the audience. But this is a book.

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Speaker 1: I have two copies because they were sent to me

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by two different Mormons. Okay, so so I have two

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copies of this book. This book is called Early Mormonism

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and the Magic Worldview by doctor Michael Quinn, who's a

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member of the LDS Church and a professor I think

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at Brigham Young and then he was excommunicated for publishing

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this book. I do not know what his current status is. However,

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the book is. You can't see it.

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Speaker 4: Yep.

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Speaker 2: Early there we go is the Magic and the Magic Worldview?

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Speaker 1: All right, Yes, this is nice light reading. I want

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you guys to know the things I do for you.

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This book is six hundred and thirty pages long. You

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didn't read the whole thing, Yes I did, Oh my goodness.

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Speaker 4: Why do you think I keep postponing this this recording?

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Speaker 2: You just keep reading books and people send.

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Speaker 1: You like it's that's the problem of talking about all

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of this stuff. Is that just the amount of literature

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on it, Like it's quite difficult, Like you can you

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cannot become an instant expert and all this stuff. All right,

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that being said, stop making excuses for myself, all right,

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and I'm going to try to Actually we'll just get

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into this. But what I really want to again focus

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on is going to be like, let's talk about these

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things and then let's you can help me with the

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sort of the symbolic understanding.

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Speaker 4: Okay, So.

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Speaker 2: I said I would never do it again, but here

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we are.

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Speaker 3: We are announcing the Symbolic Girls Summit in May twenty

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twenty six. I have so many great people around me

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that I'm just excited to do it, even though I

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thought it would be crazy to do it again.

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Speaker 1: Our summit's going to be from May fourteenth through sixteenth

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in Broadview Heights, Ohio. You can buy tickets at Symbolic

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World Summit dot com. We have early bird pricing going

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right now, fifty dollars off of general admission and VIP tickets.

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Keynote speakers this year are father Josiah Trenham and doctor

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Mary Harrington, which is a combination nobody knew that they

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wanted but I think it's going to be absolutely incredible.

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And of course Jonathan and I will be speaking, as

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well as several people from around the symbolic world community.

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Speaker 2: A lot of people that you like, that you've seen are.

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Speaker 3: Going to be there, are going to come, We're gonna

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have book signings.

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Speaker 2: It will be a lot of time for people to

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meet and to greet.

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Speaker 3: We're also doing Supra as well, and so come and

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join us. We can't wait for this and we're excited to.

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Speaker 2: Meet you in person.

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Speaker 1: That being said, let's install a little more by going

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all the way back to the Bible. So and the

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beginning of his book, Quinn basically makes the argument that

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what modern again, like I think this question of like, well,

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what's what's magic? Yeah, and what's like, you know, what's

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like a legit supernatural activity?

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Speaker 4: What is you know?

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Speaker 1: So, for our purposes today, we're going to use a

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very theologically imprecise word magic to refer to all of it. Right,

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let's say any kind of supernatural activity that comes with

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a ritual element. So we'll be this is the way

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that anthropologists talk about magic. So then they'll break that

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down and they'll talk about you know, magic in the

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church folk magic, you know, the occult, which would be

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like a secret society.

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Speaker 3: You wouldn't consider the sacraments magic in that definition, or

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would you?

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Speaker 1: I would not, and it does not see well, I

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mean obviously no, I would not, but I mean I wouldn't.

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I also wouldn't consider the a lot of the other

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things I'm about to call magic, I would not personally

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consider magic. This is just Quinn's wording, right, Okay, now

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that yeah, So anyway, that being said, it seems like

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anthropologists do also make kind of a sort of distinction

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when it comes with the sacraments, although there are throughout

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the Middle Ages kind of like some magical uses or

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associations with the Eucharist or things associated with the Eucharist

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in particular in like medieval folk magic. But we're not

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talking about that today, Jonathan, Dude, I'm trying to talk

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about Mormonism and you're just getting me all distracted.

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Speaker 4: Ah, gosh, gosh, Okay, all right.

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Speaker 1: So his argument is that magic beliefs and practices are

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pervasive throughout America in the early colonial period or the

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from colonial times to the early national period. That this

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is not limited to the uneducated or irreligious, but it

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includes Harvard graduates, it includes ordained clergy, it includes governors

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of colonies and states, it includes devout Christians, and that

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actually this sort of goes back all the way to

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the Bible, and in fact these people would have used

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the Bible as a justification for their various magical practices.

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So just to give some examples, the divination by cups,

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you find this in early colonial Bible commentaries on Genesis

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forty four, right where Joseph we find out has a

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divining cup or something which is not elaborated on or

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explained throughout the rest of the Bible. Magic by means

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of this is another quote from that period. Magic by

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means of the use of the Holy name, that is,

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the tetragramaton was actually sanctioned, and the results that were

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sought by different little, if at all, from the object

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of heathen magic. So some biblical examples here, and of course,

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not surprisingly many of these come from Genesis, though not

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all of them. You have Jacob's use of hazel rods

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to produce spotted offspring. I have here, By the way,

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I've heard some weird explanations for how this works. Is

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like some chemical in the bark of the hazel or

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something like this, and it's like, I remember, get to try.

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Speaker 3: To explain that one to me scientifically, and I was

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like fourteen years old.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, I'm sorry, not buying this.

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Speaker 4: Sorry, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Actually, to help us stall for time a little more, John,

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I think, could you just explain, like, what is the

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symbolism of the of the rods in that Genesis story.

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Speaker 4: That's a serious question though, I've always wondered.

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Speaker 1: And no, let's not talk about that, dang it seriously, Okay,

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all right, okay. Uh So you've got Jacob Jusef Hazel rods,

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You've got Joseph's silver divination cup, You've got they would

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they would.

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Speaker 4: Include how uh you know.

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Speaker 1: Quinn includes things like the brass serpent as an example

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of of like apertrophate magic, right uh, as well as

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things like Elijah's bones, reviving a corpse, Paul's handkerchiefs.

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Speaker 4: You know, healing and reviving people.

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Speaker 1: Uh, casting lots to choose Pathias as an apostle in

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the Book of Acts, another example sort of magic of

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you know, magical selection. Obviously, again, I'm not saying all

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of these things are magic. This is Quinn saying this okay,

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and then of course, uh, a lot of Jesus miracles.

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So Jesus using spittle to heal the blind man in

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the Gospel. According to Saint John, I guess there's some

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kind of sele life of magic that was going on

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in Egypt maybe at some point in the ancient world.

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So a lot of people say, like, oh, look, it's

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an example of that Araic words and Greek healing accounts,

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this idea that maybe a foreign word is kind of

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part of a magical spell, like in Mark chapter five,

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what's what's uh? And of course you know Celsus Celsius,

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who's the the the Greek anti Christian.

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Speaker 4: Uh, you know, the one of.

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Speaker 1: The one of the early enemies of Christianity against whom

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Origin rites. Celsus accuses Jesus of having gone off to

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Egypt to have like learned alexandri in magic and then

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just coming back and practicing it and all this stuff,

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and uh.

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Speaker 4: Uh.

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Speaker 1: Then then other early pagans are like, uh, actually they

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take the reverse tack. They say, well, obviously Jesus was

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a rubbish magician, because our miracles are so much more

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impressive than any of the ones that he did, And

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so so on and so forth, you know, things like this,

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all right, so uh this this. So the argument that

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Quinn sort of makes is that you have this there

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are there are a series of ritualistic and or miraculous

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practices which go back to the early you know, early

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books of the Bible, and that these people, and when

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we say these people, I mean the sort of the

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non Roman Catholic theological fringe of Europe who many of

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whom emigrated because of religious persecution to the colonies to

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the New World. They basically would look back at that

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and they would be like, oh, well, here's Jacob using rods,

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so why can't I use rods? Later on it will

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be here's Jacob practicing polygamy, so why can't I practice polygamy?

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Speaker 5: Right?

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Speaker 4: That kind of thinking, and you still still run into

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this sort of thinking today.

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Speaker 1: Man, you know, there's there's at least one YouTuber who's

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making been making a splash lately because he's trying to

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get everybody in the polygamy train.

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Speaker 4: Again. I wouldn't even say who it is because I

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don't want to give him attention.

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Speaker 1: But you know, every once in a while, I'm just

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you know, this thing crops up every every now and then.

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So within medieval Christianity you have these magical practices that

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can kind of coexist along side official doctrines. So you

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have Christian intellectuals openly embracing Kabba law during the Renaissance,

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especially in Italy, and this idea that hey, maybe there's

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actually the ceremonial magic out here that's not in conflict

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with the scripture, but it's it's like an extra path

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that's going to lead us to some extra divine knowledge

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that's not found in the tradition of the church or

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the sacramental ritual life of the Church. But you know,

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maybe as like this other secret God wants us to have.

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Speaker 2: That's a little different.

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Speaker 3: I mean, the idea of using yeah, that's that's yeah,

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that's practice in order to attain knowledge. Is it's not

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exactly the same as the desire to create phenomena through.

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Speaker 1: Magic, right to like heal so to do that. The

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thing is that it seems like the distinction you just

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made is not one that these a lot of these

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people made. Oh yeah, okay, Like that's that's the weird thing, Like,

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like I get what you're saying, and that's it's one

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of the things that Quinn talks about in the book,

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because he says something and I was I was reading

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this particular chapter in a park full of a lot

390
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of very noisy children, only some of which were mine.

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So I'm not going to get the quote exact, but

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he says something to the effect of of you would

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think it was just sort of like, oh, there's the

394
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here's the here's the witch doctor types over here doing

395
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the who do and then here's the just the intellectuals

396
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over here, and for them, it's just like this intellectual

397
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pathway to God. But actually, if you actually look at

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the practices of these people, even you know, the people

399
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who are like you know, university deans or or deans

400
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of seminary or you know, clergy or things like that,

401
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they are the ones like trying to turn the lead

402
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into gold, right, They are the ones who are also

403
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engaging in the practices that are trying to trying to

404
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affect phenomenon in various ways. And I do actually wonder

405
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if even the thing that you just said, and I'm

406
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not accusing you, Jonathan of being a materialist, but even

407
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the thing you just said is maybe like maybe like

408
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a kind of like that's the place we go to

409
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with modern people like we immediately go to, Okay, well,

410
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maybe there's a way that this can just be sort

411
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of a path to inner enlightenment and it's not going

412
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to like, you know, I'm not going to use it

413
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to find water or turn lead into gold or do

414
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any of these other kind of traditional things you're trying

415
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to do with magic, when in actuality it might be

416
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that the physical and you know, the physical and the spiritual,

417
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the scene and the end scene were just much more

418
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closely related for people even at this point in the

419
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early modern period, because it seems like people really were

420
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trying to do both. So you have, for instance, Marsilio Ficino,

421
00:23:05,799 --> 00:23:10,079
who is a Renaissance Roman Catholic priest but also an

422
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astrologer and occultist. He foretells papal elections. You have people

423
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drawing up a Roman Catholic cardinal in Italy who draws

424
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up a Nativity horoscope for Christ Why, I don't know.

425
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Pope six is the fourth who's a noted astrologer. And

426
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you have Johann Reuchlin, who's of course publishing major works

427
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on the Kabalah in the late fifteenth early sixteenth century.

428
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Even Thomas Moore's Personal Book of the Hours. You know,

429
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this is a man for all seasons, Thomas Moore. He is,

430
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his Personal Book of the Hours has like astrological, magical

431
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sort of texts in it as well. So this is

432
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at some point, this just becomes a certain part of

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the the part of what is sort of accepted as

434
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a norm for uh, educated gentleman with somewhat esoteric tastes.

435
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Speaker 3: So yeah, because we always have to remember and people

436
00:24:08,799 --> 00:24:12,680
struggle to differentiate, I think in in in the world,

437
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like the difference between the witches that were accused in

438
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the early modern period and the court as the court magician.

439
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Speaker 1: Like John Deevele, who obviously you know what it was,

440
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or you or Johann Kepler, Yeah, a good Protestant, Protestant

441
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court magician, Johann Kepler.

442
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Speaker 4: I guess d was Protestant too.

443
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Speaker 2: Yeah.

444
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Speaker 1: Yeah, so this this but basically, as long as there

445
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is kind of an establishment church and an establishment including

446
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like uh like powerful patrons, kings, queens, et cetera, to

447
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,160
patriotize you, you have there's kind of enough legitimacy.

448
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Speaker 4: But what happens is.

449
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Speaker 1: That in the in the uh, the aftermath of the

450
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Protestant Reformation, And this is one of the things we

451
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talked about, I think in our first our first episode

452
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of this, in this very ill conceived project, one of

453
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the things that we talked about was the way that

454
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the Protestant Reformation did not take the sort of enchantment

455
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out of Christianity, which is something which a lot of

456
00:25:16,039 --> 00:25:18,400
people you know would say, you know, a lot of

457
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,880
people like me would would sort of make that argument now,

458
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but that actually initially that is not what happened. What

459
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happened was there was no no, there was no sort

460
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of check, There were no kind of boundaries or guidelines around,

461
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or at least none that were enforceable around what kinds

462
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of enchanted practices you could engage in. And so what

463
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,680
happens is that after the Protestant Reformation in Western Europe,

464
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in particular in certain parts of Germany, certain parts of Poland,

465
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there's a massive explosion of these kinds of enchanted practices. Now,

466
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one of the things that we didn't talk about is

467
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that these kinds of enchanted practices.

468
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Speaker 4: Had the effect.

469
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Speaker 1: Or really really took off in particular among people who

470
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were otherwise theologically heterodox. Now, what do I mean by this,

471
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I'm talking about Anabaptists and Unitarians in particular. So there's

472
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early Unitarian movement happening that eventually gets brought over to

473
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the US because of religious persecution. There's also an early

474
00:26:26,759 --> 00:26:30,559
Anabaptist movement that happens mainly in Germany, and a lot

475
00:26:30,599 --> 00:26:33,079
of those people come over to the US, again mainly

476
00:26:33,079 --> 00:26:34,400
because of religious persecution.

477
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 4: Obviously, we're talking about the.

478
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:43,039
Speaker 1: Amish Mennonites, but also a particularly weird and interesting group

479
00:26:43,079 --> 00:26:48,160
of people from Pennsylvania who I will now, who I

480
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:49,799
will now talk about. I was like, I'll come back

481
00:26:49,839 --> 00:26:51,640
to them later. Nope, we're going to talk about them

482
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,720
now because I am going to try to I'm trying

483
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:55,880
to stick to an outline here today.

484
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,079
Speaker 4: This is how desperate I've gotten. Yeah, No, what were

485
00:26:58,079 --> 00:26:58,599
you going to say?

486
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:00,680
Speaker 2: The Shakers are the Quakers that you're talking No.

487
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:01,759
Speaker 4: Not the Shakers, the Quakers.

488
00:27:02,799 --> 00:27:05,839
Speaker 1: Uh, you're you're you're you're going down the right direction

489
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:12,480
with a let's say, uh, the the verb, the verbs

490
00:27:12,519 --> 00:27:14,599
you're going at But you should be looking more at

491
00:27:14,599 --> 00:27:19,880
the Dunkers or Tunkers. Dunkers as in like their Anabaptists,

492
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:24,279
you know, they they they Yeah, but there's a guy

493
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:31,680
named Conrad Vissel, who is h he's a Pietist. He's

494
00:27:31,759 --> 00:27:34,839
part of one of the Brethren groups. So the Brethren

495
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:39,039
groups are like a pietistic offshoot of Lutheranism. But actually

496
00:27:39,039 --> 00:27:40,720
that that makes it sound like that there was like

497
00:27:40,759 --> 00:27:44,680
an amicable like, oh, you guys, go do your pietistic thing,

498
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,480
which is not what happened. Vissel actually got expelled from

499
00:27:48,519 --> 00:27:53,960
the Lutheran clergy for of a variety of heterodots from

500
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:58,359
their perspective practices, which included things like, you know, obviously

501
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,960
he's Anabaptists and pietistic leafs, but also things like, uh,

502
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:07,440
his practice of astrology and magic, Kabbalism and so on.

503
00:28:07,759 --> 00:28:09,599
By the way, I also want to say a bunch

504
00:28:09,599 --> 00:28:12,200
of the Kabbala people also reached out to me within

505
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,359
the last few months, and we're all very worried I

506
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:19,799
was going to misrepresent Kabbala to the to the world.

507
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:21,359
Speaker 2: Jewish.

508
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:25,400
Speaker 1: No, no, the Jewish yeah yeah, And and at least

509
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:29,759
two people reach out and I said, listen, the.

510
00:28:29,759 --> 00:28:33,640
Speaker 3: Conservapim call of a sudden like being plunging into the

511
00:28:33,759 --> 00:28:37,440
esoteric world, and then I just did not the world

512
00:28:37,519 --> 00:28:41,119
gush a resourcerer is going to write.

513
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 1: You every Yeah, I said listen, I said listen, thanks.

514
00:28:43,759 --> 00:28:46,799
I'm actually just interested in how Christians have tried to

515
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:48,720
use these things. And they were like, we don't care

516
00:28:48,759 --> 00:28:51,119
about that. It was like cool, all right, So anyway,

517
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:57,519
that's that's that's uh. Yeah, it's just been it's been

518
00:28:57,519 --> 00:28:59,200
a it's been a it's been a little hectic. It's

519
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:03,319
been a little hectic. My bookshelf behind me. Actually every

520
00:29:03,359 --> 00:29:05,279
video that I made recently is just getting less and

521
00:29:05,319 --> 00:29:09,200
less organized because I like, between videos for different things,

522
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:10,720
I'm like pulling books off and flipping.

523
00:29:10,799 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 2: Yeah.

524
00:29:11,039 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 1: Anyway, it's just been spit a little nuts, been a

525
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:13,799
little nuts.

526
00:29:15,599 --> 00:29:18,519
Speaker 4: So let me talk about Visel Trek.

527
00:29:18,559 --> 00:29:21,319
Speaker 3: You're gonna have to have that stamp, you know, for

528
00:29:21,319 --> 00:29:23,319
for a study purpose only in the erea.

529
00:29:23,519 --> 00:29:25,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not helpful with like the hair getting long

530
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:27,079
and the beard getting crazy either.

531
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 4: Like it's just like you.

532
00:29:28,359 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 2: Know, I'm reading, but it's just from my video.

533
00:29:33,359 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 1: I gotta go to, like I gotta go to like

534
00:29:35,319 --> 00:29:39,640
a football game or something soon, just to like rebalance

535
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:40,200
the humors.

536
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:42,079
Speaker 4: All right.

537
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:46,599
Speaker 1: So Vissel is a German Pietist. He's been expelled from

538
00:29:46,599 --> 00:29:50,880
the Lutheran clergy for among other things, his magical practices,

539
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:52,640
but also for his kind of like he's got these

540
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,079
very mystical and there was always within Germany, in even

541
00:29:56,079 --> 00:29:58,039
in the Middle Ages, think of somebody like mister Record,

542
00:29:58,279 --> 00:30:00,400
there was always this kind of mystical.

543
00:30:01,599 --> 00:30:02,319
Speaker 4: Practice.

544
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,359
Speaker 1: And so he's got some weird combination of all of

545
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:12,119
these things, including of course Rescrucianism mm HM, which is

546
00:30:12,319 --> 00:30:16,720
really big among the Anabaptists who emigrate to Pennsylvania and

547
00:30:16,839 --> 00:30:21,160
immigrate to I was as surprised to learn this as

548
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,279
you are. And I will just say, if you're out there,

549
00:30:24,319 --> 00:30:26,720
you're watching this, you are a Resicrucian. Please do not

550
00:30:26,799 --> 00:30:32,440
send me any literature, please, all right. So, so what

551
00:30:32,519 --> 00:30:37,359
he does is he goes to Lancster, Lancaster County, Pennsylvania,

552
00:30:37,559 --> 00:30:39,039
which is of course where a lot of the amash

553
00:30:39,079 --> 00:30:42,200
A and I've spent actually just an enormous amount of

554
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,319
time in my life in that area. Never lived there,

555
00:30:44,359 --> 00:30:48,400
but I visited that. Yeah, the Lancaster County and Lehigh

556
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:50,680
Valley of Pennsylvania just seems like a lot in the

557
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,960
course of my life, even before I was Orthodox. I

558
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,240
don't know, it's a it's a really interesting it's such

559
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:58,799
an interesting part of the country. Yeah, because you have

560
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:03,640
you have all of these actually almost all the city

561
00:31:03,759 --> 00:31:06,519
you know, the towns there have names like you know Bethlehem, Ephreta,

562
00:31:07,119 --> 00:31:11,680
you know Emmaeus right where Father Andrew lives, and so on.

563
00:31:11,759 --> 00:31:13,519
Like you have all of these places that have these

564
00:31:13,519 --> 00:31:16,640
biblical names. It's because they were They were all founded

565
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,839
by these little societies, mostly of Brethren or other Pietistic

566
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:23,119
groups who came over in the initial wave of immigration,

567
00:31:25,559 --> 00:31:30,279
and we're trying to basically found the New Jerusalem. And

568
00:31:30,359 --> 00:31:32,720
this this is going to be a dominant theme within

569
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:37,200
American religion, is this sense of the New Jerusalem is

570
00:31:37,279 --> 00:31:39,720
going to be a place and we're going to found it,

571
00:31:39,799 --> 00:31:41,480
We're going to make it happen, and we're going to

572
00:31:41,519 --> 00:31:45,720
make it happen here. And in Mormonism that becomes very

573
00:31:45,759 --> 00:31:49,920
explicit certain tracts of land which are going to become

574
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,359
the place where like the New Tabernacle is built in

575
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:58,440
the Escaton and all these different things. But long before Mormonism,

576
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,759
you had these groups coming and already trying to kind

577
00:32:01,799 --> 00:32:03,839
of do this thing. They're trying to refound the Holy

578
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,680
Land in America and make America.

579
00:32:06,279 --> 00:32:08,799
Speaker 4: Into sort of a New Holy Land. And this is

580
00:32:08,799 --> 00:32:09,680
not a bad impulse.

581
00:32:09,759 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 1: Like when I'm pointing these things out and I'm just

582
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:13,519
pointing them out, you guys like I'm not. You know,

583
00:32:15,319 --> 00:32:19,319
these are people who had some very strange practices, which

584
00:32:19,359 --> 00:32:21,480
we'll talk about a moment that they took. Ultimately, they

585
00:32:21,519 --> 00:32:24,519
took their faith very seriously, much more seriously than most

586
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:28,839
modern Americans do today. So as an example, what Viisel

587
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:33,799
does is he he founds a monastery. He founds a monastery,

588
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:36,880
and it's very much along the European patterns. So there's

589
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:40,759
a men's house and a women's house, and they have celibates.

590
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:43,440
And then they have also married couples who come and

591
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:45,759
live with them and take a vow of celibacy. And

592
00:32:45,839 --> 00:32:48,920
at that point they married couple separates. They're still married

593
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:50,839
and they still do things together, but they're you know,

594
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:55,400
they sleep in different places, and they sleep in on

595
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:57,839
a fifteen inch wide wooden bench. By the way, you

596
00:32:57,839 --> 00:33:00,359
can still go and see this place and you find

597
00:33:00,359 --> 00:33:04,559
pictures of it. Some of this sleep on monasteries, you know,

598
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,799
like yeah, well okay, yeah right, yeah, so you could

599
00:33:07,799 --> 00:33:10,240
sleep so you sleep on a fifteen inch wide wooden

600
00:33:10,279 --> 00:33:13,160
bench with a wooden block for a pillow, so it's

601
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,240
not comfortable. You're allowed to sleep exactly for six hours

602
00:33:16,279 --> 00:33:19,279
a night, though there you interrupt that to get up

603
00:33:19,319 --> 00:33:21,480
and watch for the return of Christ, you know, kind

604
00:33:21,519 --> 00:33:26,039
of a thing. And you know, they live on a

605
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:30,880
very strict vegetarian diet except for Sundays when as part

606
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,079
of their communion service they would eat lamb like they

607
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,279
worked meat into their communion service, which is one of

608
00:33:37,319 --> 00:33:39,880
the strange practices. The rest of that stuff obviously sounds

609
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:45,960
perfectly fine, but the sort of people who were drawn

610
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:51,039
to this community Feisel brought in resecrutions. He brought in

611
00:33:51,119 --> 00:33:55,319
also Philadelphians, who I think are originally part of a

612
00:33:55,400 --> 00:34:02,640
French Masonic lodge. But again, Masons do not send me

613
00:34:02,799 --> 00:34:06,400
any literature. I just can't at this point with you guys.

614
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,480
But but I will say that in America there there

615
00:34:10,599 --> 00:34:15,239
was a there's a pretty long standing connection between low

616
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,480
church Protestantism and the Masons.

617
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:19,519
Speaker 4: And I don't mean this in like a.

618
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:22,760
Speaker 1: Well I mean, I just mean it as a matter

619
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,800
of fact, like every Baptist church in the South for

620
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,079
a long time was also where the launch met. Yeah,

621
00:34:30,119 --> 00:34:32,079
and that was true. That's that was true in churches

622
00:34:32,079 --> 00:34:33,960
that I grew up in. Like, you know, this has

623
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,400
been around. This has been around, you know, this connection

624
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,599
has been around a long time. So, uh, here we

625
00:34:39,639 --> 00:34:42,960
brought people in from these different sects, these different groups,

626
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:46,519
and then they would, you know, they would practice this

627
00:34:46,639 --> 00:34:49,760
very kind of strict life. But instead of like praying

628
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,599
the monastic office or something like that. Instead, what they're

629
00:34:52,599 --> 00:34:57,360
doing is they're pursuing alchemy. They're you know, both spiritual

630
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:02,639
and material transformations through the practice of alchemy. They're pursuing astrology,

631
00:35:03,119 --> 00:35:07,360
they're presuming, they're they're practicing treasure divining through the use

632
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,360
of divining rods that practice for like treasure seeking, treasure

633
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:14,280
digging we were talking about earlier. They're practicing other kinds

634
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:16,400
of ceremonial magic. We'll come back to a couple of

635
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:20,000
examples in a moment, and they are they are practicing

636
00:35:20,079 --> 00:35:23,079
very importantly two things which will turn out to be

637
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,880
really important for the history of Mormonism. Look, guys, we're

638
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:34,000
getting there. One is the practice of uh actually, let's say,

639
00:35:34,119 --> 00:35:36,400
let's say really kind of three things. One is the

640
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,360
practice of baptism for the dead. So this this practice

641
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:44,280
of like doing a proxy baptism for your dead ancestors.

642
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:50,119
As far as I can tell, that is where this

643
00:35:50,199 --> 00:35:53,480
practice kind of starts up in America. And it was

644
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,280
something like there were there were weird sectarian groups, especially

645
00:35:56,280 --> 00:36:00,400
in North Africa that practice this during their early entries

646
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,719
of the church, and then the Church you know, eventually

647
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,960
ultimately had to condemn it. So there's you know, canons

648
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:11,840
against it and so on. So you have, but you

649
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:16,039
have this practice of baptism for the dead, these you know,

650
00:36:16,159 --> 00:36:19,320
proxy baptisms on behalf of your ancestors to get your ancestors,

651
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,880
you know, into heaven or so on. The next thing

652
00:36:23,079 --> 00:36:28,280
was in seventeen thirty eight, they had one day Conrad

653
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,880
Weissel comes to twelve other men in his community. So

654
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:36,000
again you've got like one guy with twelve followers. Sort

655
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:40,199
of see a pattern, you know, again, nothing wrong with patterns,

656
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:45,480
but this is what he was doing. And he leads

657
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,559
them in a ritual purification because he says we're going

658
00:36:48,599 --> 00:36:50,920
to have a vision together. So he leads them in

659
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:55,320
this like thirty three day again, thirty three days, thirty

660
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,599
three years, right, okay, So he leads them in his

661
00:36:57,599 --> 00:37:00,440
thirty three to grete day process of ritual pure vacation,

662
00:37:01,079 --> 00:37:05,440
and at the end of that period, the seven archangels

663
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:07,840
are supposed to have appeared to them and revealed all

664
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:12,320
these esoteric secrets of the universe to them. Well, this happens,

665
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:19,280
and then two years later the community has another appearance,

666
00:37:20,519 --> 00:37:27,280
which has another another series of visions, which results in

667
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:33,960
uh Vissel being renamed Uh being renamed actually actually the

668
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,960
leaders of the community they get new names. So one

669
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:43,000
of them, Israel Echering, becomes Onesimus, one of them becomes Jabez,

670
00:37:43,559 --> 00:37:46,119
prayer of Jabe's people get in the comments, and one

671
00:37:46,159 --> 00:37:49,599
of them becomes and then Conrad himself becomes Enoch, of course,

672
00:37:51,159 --> 00:37:56,519
and Uh. When this happens, they are consecrated to the priesthood.

673
00:37:57,199 --> 00:38:00,360
And so what they're revealed in you know, what's revealed

674
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,679
to them in his vision is that the priesthood, the

675
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:07,320
Melchisedic priesthood of Christ, was lost after you know, whenever

676
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,599
the Great Apostasy, the death of last Apostle, whatever, And

677
00:38:10,639 --> 00:38:15,239
now God has returned to restore the Melchizitic priesthood here

678
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:23,000
in Ephrita, Pennsylvania, and he bestows the Melchizic priesthood upon them.

679
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:26,960
And now they have this. They have the the the og,

680
00:38:27,159 --> 00:38:31,920
the original, the the the priesthood has been restored. Now

681
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:35,559
this is a very important, uh, this is a very

682
00:38:35,599 --> 00:38:38,679
important moment. It turned out to be very important for Mormonism,

683
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,000
which I'll talk about in a moment. But it also

684
00:38:41,199 --> 00:38:44,440
kind of sets a pattern which, although it will not

685
00:38:44,599 --> 00:38:48,239
be it won't it won't be as it won't be

686
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:51,679
as like exaggerated, it won't be as extroverted within other

687
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:56,480
groups of American Protestantism Evangelicals in particular, it does kind

688
00:38:56,480 --> 00:39:00,360
of establish a pattern which which you can say is

689
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:04,480
something like one of the defining features of American religion.

690
00:39:05,199 --> 00:39:08,239
And if your response to this is, oh, my denomination

691
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,519
doesn't believe that, great, they probably did at some point though,

692
00:39:11,559 --> 00:39:15,199
if your denomination started in this country. Okay, yeah, so

693
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:18,480
you know, if your denomination started in some other country

694
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:20,760
and then they just came to America, you guys get

695
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:22,159
a pass on this one. Okay, you don't have to

696
00:39:22,159 --> 00:39:24,920
tell us, we know, but I'm talking about talking about

697
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:29,920
denominations religious groups. I've had so much weird correspondence. Yeah, anyway,

698
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:32,440
and just talking about religious groups that start in America.

699
00:39:32,559 --> 00:39:36,400
One of the defining features is this idea that you

700
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:41,239
already see happening actually in the theological fringe of a

701
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:46,400
Western Europe, which is this idea that the Holy Spirit left,

702
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,719
or the true faith was lost, or something happened, there

703
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:54,280
was some kind of a rupture. And it's not just

704
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:57,840
that there's been a church, but it's been corrupted and

705
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:02,440
in need of reformation. It is there's been no church. Yeah,

706
00:40:02,679 --> 00:40:07,159
there's been no priesthood. But now in these latter days,

707
00:40:07,519 --> 00:40:10,920
God has appeared to us, the seven of us in

708
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:12,800
this room, the thirteen of us in this room. God

709
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:16,679
appears specifically to us, gave us the Melchizedek priesthood. And

710
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:18,719
so now if you want to be, you know, a

711
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:23,000
part of the actual church, you have to be with us,

712
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:29,039
right And this idea will pop up again, you could

713
00:40:29,039 --> 00:40:31,960
call it restorationism. This will pop up again later in

714
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,360
things like the Stone Campbell movement, which created the Churches

715
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:36,039
of Christ, and other things like this. And I'm not

716
00:40:36,079 --> 00:40:38,880
saying it was exactly articularly the same way in every case,

717
00:40:39,079 --> 00:40:41,159
but it is one of the defining features of the

718
00:40:41,199 --> 00:40:42,079
American religion.

719
00:40:42,599 --> 00:40:43,639
Speaker 4: Is this idea that.

720
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 1: And by the way, this area of Pennsylvania and the

721
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:51,719
nearby area of New York State. This is not the

722
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:56,199
only time this happened. I'm picking, I'm zooming. I'm zooming

723
00:40:56,199 --> 00:40:58,119
in on this particular community for a reason which I'll

724
00:40:58,119 --> 00:41:01,159
get to in a second. But actually, there are lots

725
00:41:01,199 --> 00:41:03,679
and lots of people, you know, who were saying things like, oh, yeah,

726
00:41:03,679 --> 00:41:05,280
the Father and the Son appeared to me, and they

727
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:09,000
made me the new priest or. Oh, the Holy Trinity

728
00:41:09,039 --> 00:41:11,519
appeared to us, and you know, made our community where

729
00:41:11,519 --> 00:41:15,199
the new You know, this was happening everywhere in this

730
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:19,239
particular part of the country, and of course eventually this

731
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:25,280
revivalism continues into the early twentieth century and is why

732
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,280
that part of the part of the country was referred

733
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:28,360
to as the burned Over District.

734
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:29,679
Speaker 4: We talked about that last time.

735
00:41:30,119 --> 00:41:32,639
Speaker 3: But there are, like you said, for people to know,

736
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:37,440
like in the in the kind of great like great

737
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:40,800
blessing or whatever they call it, like the Pentecostal return,

738
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:43,480
there was all of that narrative was there, which is

739
00:41:43,519 --> 00:41:45,760
that the Holy Spirit has been kind of pretty much absent,

740
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:48,639
you know, And and that's why they're no miracle, that's

741
00:41:48,679 --> 00:41:50,400
why there's no healing, that's why there's all that.

742
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:53,559
Speaker 2: And so now is the time when, like you said.

743
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:57,280
Speaker 3: In these in these late days where the Holy Spirit

744
00:41:57,360 --> 00:41:59,559
is now back. Now we have this new blessing and

745
00:41:59,599 --> 00:42:01,760
now it's going to start to propagate through the nation

746
00:42:02,639 --> 00:42:04,280
like a lot of charismatic narrative.

747
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 2: That's what it is.

748
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 4: That's right.

749
00:42:05,519 --> 00:42:07,400
Speaker 3: I know people that are even involved in like Catholic

750
00:42:07,519 --> 00:42:14,239
charismatic groups and those those charismatic groups are pointing to

751
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:19,760
Tertullian and his and his Montanist as being the place

752
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:20,760
where the break happened.

753
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:22,280
Speaker 2: And it's like, dude, that's wild.

754
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:26,719
Speaker 3: Like before Nicia, You're you're basically putting the break and

755
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:28,920
then you you're a Catholic. How can you be Catholic

756
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:31,480
and then say that there's a this break happened, you

757
00:42:31,519 --> 00:42:33,639
know with the Montanists, it's wild.

758
00:42:34,679 --> 00:42:39,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, charismatic Catholics. Send Jonathan all your literature. He has questions,

759
00:42:41,559 --> 00:42:47,639
all right. So yeah, so we have these these restorationist claims,

760
00:42:47,639 --> 00:42:51,840
all these different things. This of course is later what

761
00:42:52,079 --> 00:42:56,079
Joseph Smith will claim that heavenly messengers came and sometime

762
00:42:56,119 --> 00:42:58,719
between eighteen twenty nine eighteen thirty five. Again, people like

763
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:02,519
to argue about the date the Melchizedic priesthood was restored

764
00:43:02,639 --> 00:43:05,840
to him, So now he's the one that has.

765
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,280
Speaker 2: It, and they use that precise terminology.

766
00:43:08,639 --> 00:43:12,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, that precise and it is obviously biblical terminology.

767
00:43:12,159 --> 00:43:12,880
Speaker 4: So yeah.

768
00:43:13,599 --> 00:43:17,679
Speaker 1: In the Book of Hebrews, Saint Paul makes the argument that,

769
00:43:18,159 --> 00:43:20,280
you know, because because you like, one of the counters

770
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:22,159
to Christianity would be to say, well, how can you

771
00:43:22,159 --> 00:43:24,519
say Christ has this priestly role when he's not of

772
00:43:24,519 --> 00:43:27,320
the tribe of Levi, Right, he's not descended from Aaron,

773
00:43:27,559 --> 00:43:29,719
you know, at least not on his father's side. And

774
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,440
so Saint Paul's answer to this is basically say, well,

775
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:35,719
there's an earlier priesthood, that is the priesthood of Melchizedic. Right,

776
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:39,679
and Abraham comes and he offers a sacrifice, you know,

777
00:43:40,039 --> 00:43:43,360
via through Melchizedek. That is, Melchizedic acts as Abraham's priest,

778
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:47,159
and since everyone descended from Abraham was in Abraham's loins

779
00:43:47,199 --> 00:43:50,119
in the Jewish way of thinking about things, therefore the

780
00:43:50,159 --> 00:43:55,960
Melchizedic priesthood supersedes the Ironic priesthood. And then he points

781
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,800
to a verse in the Psalms in which David says,

782
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:01,519
of the Lord, the Lord said, into my Lord, sit

783
00:44:01,559 --> 00:44:04,360
at my right hand, Psalm nine hundred and ten, depending

784
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,480
on your numbering. It's the most quoted Old Testament passage

785
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:09,519
in the New Testament. The Lord said to my lord,

786
00:44:09,519 --> 00:44:12,119
sit in my right hand, till your enemy's become your footstool.

787
00:44:12,519 --> 00:44:14,800
I have made you a priest forever after the order

788
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:18,480
of Melchizedek, right, and so so that's what Saint Paul

789
00:44:18,559 --> 00:44:21,000
draws on. Of course Christ drew on that passage, Peter

790
00:44:21,119 --> 00:44:25,159
drew on that passage and so on. So this is

791
00:44:25,199 --> 00:44:30,599
definitely his biblical language. And you know, again not trying,

792
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:32,639
I'm really trying to avoid talking and just sort of

793
00:44:32,679 --> 00:44:36,079
like comparative religion polemical kind of terms today. But you

794
00:44:36,119 --> 00:44:38,199
could say, from an Orthodox perspective, we have no issue

795
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:40,039
with the idea of a Melchizideic priest. So we would

796
00:44:40,039 --> 00:44:42,159
say that is the priests of Christ, which he gave

797
00:44:42,199 --> 00:44:45,280
to his apostles and which is just not like just

798
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:46,239
hasn't gone anywhere.

799
00:44:47,079 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 4: Yeah.

800
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:52,679
Speaker 1: So another interesting thing, by the way, is that Joseph

801
00:44:52,679 --> 00:44:56,000
Smith will also use the name Enoch in early in

802
00:44:56,119 --> 00:45:01,360
early Mormon revelations. So the same name that kind of

803
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:05,400
a vessel took. So Vicel and I'll talk about the

804
00:45:05,639 --> 00:45:09,519
connection between them in a moment.

805
00:45:09,679 --> 00:45:12,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, because there's something there's like there's actually there's a

806
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:19,360
weird esoteric strain about Inochian initiation, you know, and this idea,

807
00:45:19,519 --> 00:45:22,320
and it's to there actually in Islam too, weirdly, like

808
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:27,119
this idea that there's a form of initiation that is

809
00:45:27,159 --> 00:45:30,559
not linear, that is kind of that that is radic,

810
00:45:30,679 --> 00:45:33,239
that sort of jumps, Yeah, that jumps and then just

811
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:36,199
kind of comes down. Uh, And and that you can

812
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:38,480
be you can kind of have a kind of initiation

813
00:45:38,599 --> 00:45:41,840
without being in line with with the tradition, you know.

814
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:46,079
And so it's not surprising that characters like Enoch, you know,

815
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:48,599
or or John the Baptist and these kind of characters

816
00:45:48,639 --> 00:45:51,400
would be used as as images of that.

817
00:45:52,159 --> 00:45:53,119
Speaker 4: Yeah.

818
00:45:53,199 --> 00:45:55,320
Speaker 1: So another one of the things that was going on

819
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:59,360
at this community, that the Effrodoc Communion community, was the

820
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:03,960
use of like esoteric garments, like secret garments for you know,

821
00:46:04,119 --> 00:46:08,119
performing various rites. In this case, they're drawn from they're

822
00:46:08,159 --> 00:46:13,719
drawn from the resecution kind of tradition, I guess. So

823
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:17,360
this is the way Quinn describes it. A man wearing

824
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:21,239
a religiously occult garment featuring the salamander, the astrological symbol

825
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:23,719
for Saturn was on the man's crown, and the symbol

826
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:25,920
for Jupiter on his forehead on the left breast of

827
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:28,039
his garments, surrounded by flames was either the Christian dub

828
00:46:28,079 --> 00:46:30,920
symbol of the Holy Ghost or the mythological phoenix symbol

829
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:37,559
of resurrection, probably both. So this is gonna which Quinn

830
00:46:37,559 --> 00:46:39,880
sort of ties this to the special temple garments that

831
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:45,440
are gonna later on become part of early Mormon temple practice.

832
00:46:46,079 --> 00:46:48,679
The Effort community was not a flash in the Pan movement.

833
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:53,719
It continues as a celibate order till eighteen fourteen, and

834
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:59,119
I believe the last surviving member of one of like

835
00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:02,159
of that lineage died like in nineteen ninety eight or something.

836
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 2: What.

837
00:47:03,119 --> 00:47:04,840
Speaker 4: So it continued continued on.

838
00:47:05,119 --> 00:47:08,360
Speaker 1: You know, obviously it was never large, It was never large,

839
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:12,320
but it was still going in Eprotait in eighteen thirty five,

840
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:14,639
which is the same year that the first Mormon temple

841
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:18,320
was completed in Kirkland. Now what's the connection between this.

842
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:20,119
Obviously this is all kind of in that same neck

843
00:47:20,119 --> 00:47:20,599
of the woods.

844
00:47:22,079 --> 00:47:22,239
Speaker 5: You know.

845
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:24,599
Speaker 1: Obviously Pennsylvania and New York these are different states, but

846
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:27,159
you know, they're pretty close. They're pretty close to each other,

847
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:32,159
especially by especially by Texas standards. You guys, you know

848
00:47:32,199 --> 00:47:34,679
you can fit all of Canada and Texas. Jonathan, I

849
00:47:34,679 --> 00:47:37,599
don't know if you know. That doesn't sound right. That

850
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:40,320
doesn't sound right, sounds true? Pretty sure, it's not y.

851
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,400
I actually heard a hilarious joke about this. But I'll

852
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:47,360
save it. I'll save it, save it for later, Save

853
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:54,360
it for later, all right. So the connection between all

854
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:56,840
of this is the Whitmer family. So located this is

855
00:47:57,199 --> 00:48:00,000
this is what Quinn says, located in Lancaster County, Pennsylvan

856
00:48:00,559 --> 00:48:04,280
These Rosicrucian mystics lived only four miles from Peter Whitmer Senior.

857
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:07,280
His five sons later become the special witnesses of the

858
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:11,440
Book of Mormon. So this is a family that's very

859
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:13,920
closely involved with Joseph Smith early on in the history

860
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:14,559
of Mormonism.

861
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:16,440
Speaker 4: They're the special witnesses.

862
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:18,039
Speaker 1: They're the ones who see the plates, They're the ones

863
00:48:18,079 --> 00:48:20,880
who see the angelic revelation. They're connected with this restoration

864
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:23,639
to the Melchizic priestsint all this stuff. But they grew

865
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:26,360
up just four miles away from a place where all

866
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:29,400
the same stuff was happening. You have esoteric texts, baptism

867
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:32,360
for the dead, you have you know, you know, are

868
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:35,880
the archangels appearing. You have divine apparitions that results in

869
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:38,079
the restoration of the Melchizedic precint and so on and

870
00:48:38,079 --> 00:48:43,840
so forth, and there is and in fact, there's a

871
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:49,840
note here that Hiram Page are married to a Whitmer

872
00:48:50,159 --> 00:48:54,199
who's a part part of the larger you know, Mormon

873
00:48:55,159 --> 00:48:59,079
family from early on was married to Whitmerre daughter later

874
00:48:59,079 --> 00:49:02,639
became notorious for his own sear stone, which produced revelations

875
00:49:02,639 --> 00:49:07,280
that competed with Joseph Smith's revelations. This crisis in eighteen

876
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:09,800
thirty led to the Doctrine and Covenant twenty eight, which

877
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:13,239
established that only Joseph Smith could receive revelations for the

878
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:16,639
whole church. Page of stone gazing was the same practice

879
00:49:16,639 --> 00:49:20,320
that Joseph used. The problem was basically the authority, right.

880
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:23,760
So this idea that of course we talked, we talked

881
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:27,679
before about these treasure diggers. This this practice of treasure digging,

882
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:35,320
which probably comes is related to esoteric alchemical practices in Europe. Ultimately,

883
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:37,719
it's this practice that was very common in New England

884
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:43,079
and in Pennsylvania of people and upstate New York of people,

885
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:45,960
you know, believing that there were, you know, there was

886
00:49:46,039 --> 00:49:48,960
treasure that had been buried and then was being guarded

887
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:51,519
by like a hostile spirit. So what you had to

888
00:49:51,519 --> 00:49:55,039
do was you had to have somebody who would see

889
00:49:55,039 --> 00:49:58,239
where the treasure was and then also have know the

890
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:01,880
right ritual and magic and everything to placate the hostile spirit.

891
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:05,400
And it seems that Joseph Smith definitely worked as a

892
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:07,920
treasure seer in this way for some amount of time,

893
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:11,440
and in fact, the finding of the Golden plates kind

894
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:14,920
of follows that pattern. And the way that he translates

895
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:16,800
the golden plates, which is like you know, putting his

896
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:21,000
searstones into his hat and then putting you know, looking

897
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:24,400
into his hat, that's the same, the same sort of

898
00:50:24,559 --> 00:50:27,840
that's the techne, that's the that's the method that treasure

899
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:31,000
sears use. And so Hire and Page, who married one

900
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:33,840
of the Whitmer daughters, he gets his own searstone and

901
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:36,440
starts looking into his own hat, starts having his own revelations,

902
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:38,840
and then it's like, okay, well whose revelation is real?

903
00:50:39,199 --> 00:50:41,760
They're both using the same methodology, So like which guy.

904
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:46,079
Is it so so that the Whimmers brought with them

905
00:50:46,079 --> 00:50:48,119
when they moved to New York. They brought with them

906
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:52,960
Pennsylvania German folk beliefs about witchcraft, encounter charms. They brought

907
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:58,800
this proximity to Rosicrucian practices, alchemy, astrology, treasure divining, ceremonial magic.

908
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:02,239
They brought with him a familiarity with this idea of

909
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:05,320
proxy baptism for the dead, and the concept of the

910
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:08,199
Melchizitic priesthood being conferred by laying out of hands. These

911
00:51:08,199 --> 00:51:12,000
are all things that are going on in Pennsylvania German

912
00:51:12,119 --> 00:51:16,119
folk practice in places like the Efrotak community.

913
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:18,440
Speaker 4: And then they are all.

914
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:24,000
Speaker 1: Things that becomes of the major defining elements of early Mormonism.

915
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:30,039
So we mentioned Joseph Smith. He has a stone that

916
00:51:30,039 --> 00:51:34,159
he uses for treasure digging, and he uses it to

917
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:36,559
of course translate the Book of Mormon, and that also

918
00:51:37,039 --> 00:51:40,280
continues to be used for revelations well into the eighteen forties.

919
00:51:40,559 --> 00:51:43,480
There's a first hand account of his using this that says, now,

920
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:45,719
the way that he translated was he put the urim

921
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:47,679
and the thumbum. That's what he calls his two stones,

922
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:52,119
urum and thumbum and he puts them into his hat

923
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:54,679
and darkened his eyes. Then he would take a sentence

924
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:56,960
and it would appear in bright Roman letters, so he

925
00:51:56,960 --> 00:52:00,239
would like see the sentence spelled out in like in

926
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:03,960
you know, King James English, Yeah, inside the hat, and

927
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:05,280
then he would say write this down.

928
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:06,880
Speaker 4: Would he be would he.

929
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:08,920
Speaker 2: Be like looking through the hat kind of thing?

930
00:52:09,159 --> 00:52:11,360
Speaker 3: Like like let's say like if you well hat, you

931
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:12,639
put it over your eyes, you kind of see the

932
00:52:12,679 --> 00:52:13,679
light kind of filter through.

933
00:52:14,559 --> 00:52:17,920
Speaker 1: I know, I I think that the idea with the

934
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:19,760
the way that searstones was used was like he used

935
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:22,639
that hat or something else to completely occult so you

936
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:25,599
have no outside light sources coming because the idea is

937
00:52:25,599 --> 00:52:27,960
the light is supposed to shine out of the searstonesh okay,

938
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:33,039
right yeah yeah yeah. So this is the technique that

939
00:52:33,159 --> 00:52:36,079
was used for treasure seeking, and it's also the same

940
00:52:36,119 --> 00:52:39,840
one that is used for scriptural translation, right uh, for

941
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:44,760
by Joseph Smith. There's also this guy named Oliver Cowdery

942
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:50,440
who is his cousin by marriage, and he is, uh,

943
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:54,800
he is a major He's a major rod guy. I

944
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:57,039
don't know, like like he he has a divining rod

945
00:52:57,079 --> 00:52:59,920
that he uses for for revelation. He was also Joe

946
00:53:00,159 --> 00:53:03,559
Smith's primary scribe during the Book of Mormon translation, and

947
00:53:03,599 --> 00:53:05,599
he has this dividing rod that he's able to use

948
00:53:05,639 --> 00:53:11,559
for various kinds of revelation, and that his use of

949
00:53:11,559 --> 00:53:13,639
that rod was actually, you know, Quinn points out, was

950
00:53:13,679 --> 00:53:17,519
actually enshrined within doctrines and covenants, which is, you know,

951
00:53:17,559 --> 00:53:20,679
again like an official statement by the bye by Joseph

952
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:25,119
Smith basically saying that he has that that he has

953
00:53:25,159 --> 00:53:27,480
the gift of Aaron, or he is the rod of

954
00:53:27,519 --> 00:53:28,360
the rod of nature.

955
00:53:28,159 --> 00:53:28,800
Speaker 4: Of the gift of Aaron.

956
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:31,679
Speaker 1: He's got the ability to you know, like his his

957
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:33,800
gifts are legitimate things like that. So you have kind

958
00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:36,119
of all of the stuff going on. Quinn goes into

959
00:53:36,159 --> 00:53:40,320
a lot of details about the timing of the revelation,

960
00:53:40,559 --> 00:53:42,679
like when the you know, the angel Boroni is supposed

961
00:53:42,679 --> 00:53:46,800
to have appeared to Joseph Smith, and how the the

962
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:49,440
sort of things that Joseph does Smith is recorded to

963
00:53:49,519 --> 00:53:55,360
have done preparing for it is all basically follows what

964
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:58,679
you find in occult handbooks being published in that same

965
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:02,480
part of New York at that time about how basically

966
00:54:02,519 --> 00:54:07,079
how to how to you know, basically the astrological and

967
00:54:07,199 --> 00:54:13,880
ritual stuff necessary to summon angels. So you could argue

968
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:15,760
that Joseph Smith did or didn't read these books, but

969
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:18,639
that point is they were being published, you know where

970
00:54:18,639 --> 00:54:22,039
he lived, and the things that he does kind of

971
00:54:22,039 --> 00:54:24,199
corresponds to them exactly. And honestly, I don't want to

972
00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:26,599
go into the details here because I don't really want

973
00:54:26,639 --> 00:54:30,480
to talk about the specifics of weird occult rituals on YouTube.

974
00:54:30,559 --> 00:54:33,039
You know, I'm sure somebody else is doing that already.

975
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:38,119
And then and then Joseph Smith went on to have

976
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:42,079
you know, he's got Quinn's got lots of evidence. Something

977
00:54:42,079 --> 00:54:45,239
that was really important in Smith's kind of early life

978
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:49,960
was he's he has various amulets like little parchments with

979
00:54:50,599 --> 00:54:54,079
prayers or or you know, spells of protection written on them,

980
00:54:54,079 --> 00:54:57,079
which is, you know, something that even even the Gospel

981
00:54:57,119 --> 00:54:59,599
has been used for. In the Middle Ages, it was

982
00:55:00,119 --> 00:55:03,280
very common for folk people as kind of a folk magic.

983
00:55:03,639 --> 00:55:05,440
You would take the Last Gospel, which is the first

984
00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:10,480
perickopee from the Gospel according to Saint John, in the

985
00:55:10,519 --> 00:55:12,480
beginning was the Word, which is the thing that's being

986
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:14,599
read at the end of every mass. Right, so they

987
00:55:14,639 --> 00:55:18,199
would take the Last Gospel and they would have somebody

988
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:19,880
write it down in Latin. Of course they can't read it,

989
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:22,679
but they'd have it and then you know, roll it

990
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:24,280
up in a tiny little scroll and they would wear

991
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:26,519
it around their charm like an amulet. And so there's

992
00:55:26,639 --> 00:55:29,599
various things like this that Joseph Smith has and kind

993
00:55:29,599 --> 00:55:32,880
of uses throughout his life, including like stuff that's got

994
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:36,800
astrological symbols for Mars and Jupiter and so on, and

995
00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:39,159
all this stuff. Anyway, you have all this stuff, and

996
00:55:39,199 --> 00:55:41,320
then what happens, and this is kind of where I

997
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:44,159
want to shift things to a little bit, is that

998
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:50,440
after Joseph Smith's death, Brigham Young becomes the He becomes

999
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:53,760
the second president of the Mormon Church after Joseph Smith's death.

1000
00:55:54,239 --> 00:55:58,320
And Brigham Young is born in Vermont, much like Joseph

1001
00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:01,079
Smith and grew up in that kind of the same

1002
00:56:01,679 --> 00:56:06,440
magical enchanted New England, New York, Pennsylvania, that same sort

1003
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:12,280
of enchanted newieu. But he is part of the transition

1004
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:15,440
from this all this sort of enchanted background stuff to

1005
00:56:15,599 --> 00:56:19,199
trying to push the church to being sort of like

1006
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:24,000
more mainstream in public, yes church, yeah, the od s.

1007
00:56:24,119 --> 00:56:24,559
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1008
00:56:24,599 --> 00:56:30,000
Speaker 1: So he takes. He takes kind of a dual stance,

1009
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:34,559
so according to according to people who knew him during

1010
00:56:34,559 --> 00:56:39,840
his lifetime, in public, he's very against astrology and against magic,

1011
00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:42,760
so like he dissolves the astrological society in Salt Lake City.

1012
00:56:43,039 --> 00:56:46,599
He warns against astrology and sermons, but then privately he

1013
00:56:46,679 --> 00:56:48,559
still says he believe is true. He carries like an

1014
00:56:48,559 --> 00:56:52,519
amulet for protection. He's really worried about witchcraft and which

1015
00:56:52,599 --> 00:56:54,360
is kind of running around Salt Lake City, the things

1016
00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:56,480
that they're doing, the ways that they're affecting his church,

1017
00:56:56,519 --> 00:57:01,119
and so on and so in in the eighteen thirties

1018
00:57:01,159 --> 00:57:04,000
eighteen forties, you still have a lot of these magical practices,

1019
00:57:04,119 --> 00:57:07,519
especially the use of searsones and divining rods, still continuing

1020
00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:12,280
publicly to the point that you know, there was like

1021
00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:14,039
in Sale when they were in Salem, like they were

1022
00:57:14,039 --> 00:57:17,519
looking for you know, they were doing treasure digging. While

1023
00:57:17,679 --> 00:57:22,280
in Salem they would actually anoint your magical instruments, like

1024
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:24,639
you could bring your divining rod into the temple to

1025
00:57:24,679 --> 00:57:27,480
have it anointed for use, you know. And then kind

1026
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:31,280
of starting in the eighteen fifties eighteen seventies, they start

1027
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:35,519
to move away from that stuff and just start to

1028
00:57:35,599 --> 00:57:39,079
kind of push it towards the fringe. And some of

1029
00:57:39,079 --> 00:57:41,280
this seems to have happened. There were a bunch of

1030
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:45,079
Methodist ministers who converted in like the eighteen seventies, and

1031
00:57:45,119 --> 00:57:48,440
so as they come in, they kind of bring a

1032
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:51,760
lot of elements of the LDS church into more to

1033
00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:56,920
line with the kind of you know, the sort of

1034
00:57:56,920 --> 00:57:59,960
the mainstream Protestant practice. And this is I'm sure that

1035
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:02,400
this is related. I'm sure this is related to the

1036
00:58:03,079 --> 00:58:06,239
fact that you know, a lot of LDS churches, you know,

1037
00:58:06,559 --> 00:58:07,760
like a lot of the hymns they sing are the

1038
00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:09,559
same hymns that you would hear sung and just like

1039
00:58:09,599 --> 00:58:11,440
an evangelical church, right.

1040
00:58:12,239 --> 00:58:16,360
Speaker 3: And so my big question I have So, I mean,

1041
00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:19,480
one of the things that's interesting to notice is, you know,

1042
00:58:19,599 --> 00:58:23,239
the the idea that with the Protestants, especially the more

1043
00:58:23,320 --> 00:58:27,119
radical Protestants, there's all of this magic practice that gets

1044
00:58:28,199 --> 00:58:31,639
joined with the with the church. You know, it's fascinating

1045
00:58:31,639 --> 00:58:34,000
because you can really you realize how complicated it is

1046
00:58:34,039 --> 00:58:36,639
because on the one hand, it's mostly in the Protestant

1047
00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:41,079
lands that the witch trials happen, uh, right, And because

1048
00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:43,440
it's like it's like a mess. It's I feel, this

1049
00:58:43,519 --> 00:58:45,559
is what it feels to me, like it's like everything's

1050
00:58:45,599 --> 00:58:48,400
kind of we don't know what's right, what's okay, what's not.

1051
00:58:48,639 --> 00:58:53,039
And there's this weird desire also to totally convert all

1052
00:58:53,079 --> 00:58:55,599
the folk people to like evangelize them and everything. And

1053
00:58:55,639 --> 00:58:58,599
so there's this pressure on folk practices. But at the

1054
00:58:58,639 --> 00:59:02,159
same time there's this badquestion of these types of practice

1055
00:59:02,239 --> 00:59:04,519
that are in the clergy itself, that are in the

1056
00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:05,519
that are in.

1057
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:06,320
Speaker 2: Some of the pastors.

1058
00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:09,039
Speaker 3: But I guess my question is, so, for example, you

1059
00:59:09,079 --> 00:59:12,960
talk about this man who publicly denounced astrology but secretly

1060
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:16,920
practiced it, was that still the normal vision? Was it

1061
00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:21,079
mostly prescribed but practiced in secret or practiced in kind

1062
00:59:21,079 --> 00:59:21,840
of informally.

1063
00:59:23,159 --> 00:59:27,199
Speaker 1: My sense, having read a lot now on this period,

1064
00:59:27,199 --> 00:59:29,280
not just within mormonths, but my sense is that in

1065
00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:33,320
America in general that was probably the case until maybe

1066
00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:35,679
the eighteen sixties or eighteen seventies.

1067
00:59:35,519 --> 00:59:37,840
Speaker 3: That what that it was prescribed but practice kind of

1068
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:38,639
in secret anything.

1069
00:59:39,119 --> 00:59:44,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, and there's there's you know, there's even

1070
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:47,000
there's weird things from my childhood kind of growing up

1071
00:59:47,079 --> 00:59:50,800
out in the country, you know, where obviously they would say,

1072
00:59:50,840 --> 00:59:53,159
you know, all this stuff is bad. Don't do ouiji boards,

1073
00:59:53,199 --> 00:59:55,400
don't do astrology stuff like this. But then also like

1074
00:59:56,239 --> 01:00:00,199
you know, there are always those people, you know, there's

1075
01:00:00,199 --> 01:00:03,079
always those people who are like, oh, you got a

1076
01:00:03,119 --> 01:00:05,039
problem with your cow, Like go talk to this person,

1077
01:00:05,119 --> 01:00:05,719
you know, Like, I.

1078
01:00:05,679 --> 01:00:06,159
Speaker 4: Don't know.

1079
01:00:09,639 --> 01:00:11,920
Speaker 1: The thing that I want to I think that the

1080
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:14,280
arc that I want to kind of draw for this video.

1081
01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:19,119
The thing that I'm most interested in is not the

1082
01:00:19,119 --> 01:00:22,760
truth claims of Mormonism. It's not like the recent history

1083
01:00:22,840 --> 01:00:25,519
of it and all that stuff, or the various sects

1084
01:00:25,519 --> 01:00:27,679
and the things that they believe. In particular they broke

1085
01:00:27,719 --> 01:00:30,679
off and you know, obviously there's all the polygamy, right

1086
01:00:33,159 --> 01:00:35,079
what the thing that I'm kind of interested in is

1087
01:00:35,119 --> 01:00:40,119
that in the secularization of religion, which of course ultimately

1088
01:00:40,159 --> 01:00:44,480
happens in the during the Enlightenment on the continent and

1089
01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:49,239
then much later begins in America, and the secularization of religion.

1090
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:52,119
They're one of the things that you do if you

1091
01:00:52,119 --> 01:00:54,360
want to sort of keep your faith or you want

1092
01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:57,519
to like accept the truth claims of your religion, but

1093
01:00:57,639 --> 01:01:00,599
also you're too much of a material to kind of

1094
01:01:00,639 --> 01:01:03,719
accept things like that could happen now is you do

1095
01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:06,079
this move and this is the this is the move

1096
01:01:06,119 --> 01:01:07,639
that was done in the churches that I grew up in,

1097
01:01:07,679 --> 01:01:11,960
which was of course God worked that way back then. Yeah,

1098
01:01:12,920 --> 01:01:16,000
but he doesn't do it that way now. That was

1099
01:01:16,079 --> 01:01:19,119
just necessary because it was at the beginning of the religion.

1100
01:01:19,679 --> 01:01:23,639
But now, because we have the scriptures, we don't actually

1101
01:01:23,679 --> 01:01:26,119
need the miraculous, we don't actually need miracles, we don't

1102
01:01:26,119 --> 01:01:30,239
actually need mystical experiences. I sure hope nobody has watched

1103
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:32,800
these videos and come away with the idea that Deacon

1104
01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:37,119
Zeraphim doesn't believe in the miraculous or mystilical experiences. I'm

1105
01:01:37,239 --> 01:01:40,840
I'm I'm certain that I'm so far past the Overton

1106
01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:43,639
window on this stuff that if I were to tell

1107
01:01:43,639 --> 01:01:46,840
you all the stuff I actually believe happens, a lot

1108
01:01:46,880 --> 01:01:48,199
of you would just be really freaked out.

1109
01:01:48,239 --> 01:01:52,840
Speaker 4: That's That'd be my guess. That'd be my guess, you know.

1110
01:01:53,119 --> 01:01:58,119
Speaker 1: But But the thing so, but the thing that's interesting

1111
01:01:58,159 --> 01:02:01,320
to me is that mormon Is did that entire arc.

1112
01:02:01,440 --> 01:02:04,440
But they did it in like one hundred years. So

1113
01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:10,960
they went from they went from magic, miracles, mysticism, you know.

1114
01:02:10,920 --> 01:02:11,159
Speaker 4: And.

1115
01:02:12,840 --> 01:02:15,519
Speaker 1: You can believe that that that was their authentic experience,

1116
01:02:15,519 --> 01:02:17,320
even if you don't believe it came from God. Right,

1117
01:02:17,760 --> 01:02:21,679
they went from magic miracles, mysticism too. Well, that was

1118
01:02:21,800 --> 01:02:25,119
kind of back then in the early days of the church.

1119
01:02:25,159 --> 01:02:28,239
But we don't need that stuff anymore, and so now

1120
01:02:28,440 --> 01:02:31,679
everything's kind of very much feels very kind of whitewashed.

1121
01:02:31,760 --> 01:02:35,400
Everything feels kind of very you know. In fact, when

1122
01:02:35,400 --> 01:02:38,239
I've talked to LDS people about this, that's basically what

1123
01:02:38,280 --> 01:02:40,960
they'll say. They'll say the same thing about the polygamy, right,

1124
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:45,239
So it's this, oh, yeah, it was early days, you know,

1125
01:02:45,320 --> 01:02:48,119
things like this, but now now it's all you know.

1126
01:02:48,159 --> 01:02:53,000
So it's just it's really interesting to me to kind

1127
01:02:53,039 --> 01:02:54,920
of bring all this together. What I would say is

1128
01:02:54,960 --> 01:02:57,840
that again, there was this sort of low enchantment that

1129
01:02:57,920 --> 01:03:01,440
survives the Reformation, that crosses the atlant that flourishes in

1130
01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:05,280
early America, especially in the Northeast. Now I have mentioned

1131
01:03:05,280 --> 01:03:08,119
before that we'll have to come back at some point

1132
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:11,159
and do the other Americas. This idea that there's just

1133
01:03:11,199 --> 01:03:14,400
sort of like one American religious experience is obviously not correct.

1134
01:03:14,639 --> 01:03:18,599
There's a massive amount of of territory the Americas that

1135
01:03:18,639 --> 01:03:21,880
was mainly colonized by Roman Catholics. And so you know,

1136
01:03:22,039 --> 01:03:25,679
so there are you know, uh, Marian apparitions and all

1137
01:03:25,760 --> 01:03:27,840
kinds of other things to to deal with and talk

1138
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:31,719
about and grapple with. That is not this podcast today.

1139
01:03:31,840 --> 01:03:37,760
We'll get to it eventually eventually. But uh that this

1140
01:03:37,760 --> 01:03:41,199
this this kind of low enchantment flourishes in the Northeast,

1141
01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:45,960
in uh, in of state New York, in Pennsylvania, in Appalachia,

1142
01:03:46,599 --> 01:03:50,000
and then it uh and then one of the things

1143
01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:52,480
that kind of grows up out of that soil is

1144
01:03:52,519 --> 01:03:58,719
this restorationist impulse, right to say that, uh, historical Christianity

1145
01:03:58,880 --> 01:04:03,079
lost something essential. They lost the priesthood, they lost the

1146
01:04:03,119 --> 01:04:05,719
spiritual gifts, the gifts of the spirit, they lost purity.

1147
01:04:05,960 --> 01:04:10,119
They lost this something and that us we our group

1148
01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:15,079
has uniquely recovered it through special revelation. Now, there were

1149
01:04:15,159 --> 01:04:19,039
groups in Europe who believed this. Most of them honestly

1150
01:04:19,079 --> 01:04:23,920
just didn't survive, but they survived and thrived in America.

1151
01:04:24,079 --> 01:04:26,960
And this pattern appears at Efrita in the seventeen forties,

1152
01:04:27,239 --> 01:04:30,599
It appears among the Campbellites in the eighteen hundreds, among

1153
01:04:30,639 --> 01:04:33,320
the Mormons in the eighteen twenties, among the Adventists in

1154
01:04:33,360 --> 01:04:36,280
the eighteen forties, among the Pentecostals in the early nineteen hundreds.

1155
01:04:36,639 --> 01:04:39,960
And to me, this belief is one of the defining

1156
01:04:39,960 --> 01:04:42,960
features of what you could call the American religion.

1157
01:04:43,519 --> 01:04:47,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, and there's also I think the other thing that

1158
01:04:47,079 --> 01:04:49,760
you mentioned which is very interesting and fascinating to think

1159
01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:53,639
about is, you know, we have a trope now that

1160
01:04:53,760 --> 01:04:57,920
exists in Orthodoxy and Catholicism and in certain branches of Protestantism,

1161
01:04:57,960 --> 01:05:02,519
which is too un understand the kind of mystical occult

1162
01:05:02,679 --> 01:05:07,719
magical practices as being Satanic. Right in the broad sense,

1163
01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:10,639
it's all Satanic, and it's all outside the Church, and

1164
01:05:10,679 --> 01:05:14,239
it's all of it's an assault on Christianity. But I

1165
01:05:14,280 --> 01:05:16,559
think that in order to fully understand the picture, we

1166
01:05:16,639 --> 01:05:19,119
have to kind of understand that these are a lot

1167
01:05:19,159 --> 01:05:23,400
of these things are are strange outgrowth from within the

1168
01:05:23,519 --> 01:05:27,639
Christian tradition. That is, uh, you know, whether it is Rosicrucian.

1169
01:05:28,079 --> 01:05:32,599
The Rosicrucians were kind of like they come out of Christianity,

1170
01:05:32,679 --> 01:05:35,760
like they they like their vision is mistaken.

1171
01:05:35,840 --> 01:05:38,199
Speaker 2: It's the same with Freemasonry and all of these things.

1172
01:05:38,239 --> 01:05:39,039
It kind of.

1173
01:05:39,280 --> 01:05:42,960
Speaker 3: Is like a weird expression of a of a strange

1174
01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:46,719
moment in Western Christianity where these these things kind of appear.

1175
01:05:48,239 --> 01:05:51,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean probably ultimately related to even you know,

1176
01:05:51,880 --> 01:05:54,599
there are groups in the Eastlake, the Bogomiles and so

1177
01:05:54,639 --> 01:05:58,360
on that are that are that are definitely in relatedous

1178
01:05:58,480 --> 01:06:00,239
like the Cathars and so one.

1179
01:06:00,320 --> 01:06:02,679
Speaker 4: Like you you know, these things pop up.

1180
01:06:02,719 --> 01:06:06,719
Speaker 1: But there was the moment right at the end of

1181
01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:09,480
the Middle Ages, the Renaissance, the beginning of the of

1182
01:06:09,519 --> 01:06:12,960
the modern period that that moment was just like the

1183
01:06:13,119 --> 01:06:17,519
moment in European history of the West for these various

1184
01:06:18,079 --> 01:06:21,239
groups to kind of pop up and actually actually you

1185
01:06:21,280 --> 01:06:23,559
know have legs.

1186
01:06:24,519 --> 01:06:28,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, they were often clergy like, it wasn't yeah, yeah, yeah,

1187
01:06:28,599 --> 01:06:30,760
that's that's what I'm trying to emphasize, Like it wasn't

1188
01:06:30,880 --> 01:06:34,079
just like yeah, and there's some some let's say, certain

1189
01:06:34,119 --> 01:06:37,039
aspects and this is this is going to be a

1190
01:06:37,039 --> 01:06:39,239
harder one to talk about, but like there are certain

1191
01:06:39,280 --> 01:06:43,880
aspects of that which are seen as evil in itself

1192
01:06:43,920 --> 01:06:46,360
because of more material this point of view, rather than

1193
01:06:46,920 --> 01:06:50,320
our spiritual heritage. Right, the idea that you can influence

1194
01:06:50,360 --> 01:06:54,679
the world through through influence, you know, this kind of

1195
01:06:54,760 --> 01:06:57,840
natural magic thing. I'm not saying people should practice natural magic.

1196
01:06:58,079 --> 01:07:01,519
What I mean is that these types of behaviors, they

1197
01:07:01,599 --> 01:07:07,039
seem to us often as being purely evil, in part

1198
01:07:07,079 --> 01:07:09,719
because we're materialists and we think that it's a kind

1199
01:07:09,760 --> 01:07:14,000
of weird thing that never like that can't that can't happen,

1200
01:07:14,159 --> 01:07:17,360
because it's like it's a supernatural in the strangest sense,

1201
01:07:17,400 --> 01:07:17,559
you know.

1202
01:07:18,719 --> 01:07:20,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, Quinn talks about this a little bit in the

1203
01:07:20,519 --> 01:07:23,239
first chapter of his book. He talks about how like

1204
01:07:23,840 --> 01:07:26,880
Founding Fathers, people like Thomas Jefferson, you know, how they

1205
01:07:26,960 --> 01:07:29,239
sort of approach magic and the Bible and all these

1206
01:07:29,280 --> 01:07:33,519
other things, and there's always definitely been you could say,

1207
01:07:33,639 --> 01:07:42,920
simultaneously a a an impulse to be kind of embarrassed

1208
01:07:43,639 --> 01:07:48,639
by that sort of stuff. So, for instance, let's see

1209
01:07:48,639 --> 01:07:55,119
if I can find this in my notes here. Yeah,

1210
01:07:55,119 --> 01:07:57,960
so this is a quote from Keith Thomas, who's a scholar.

1211
01:07:58,000 --> 01:08:00,599
He says, for those Protestants who believe that the age

1212
01:08:00,599 --> 01:08:03,679
of Christian miracles was over all supernatural effects, necessarily spraying

1213
01:08:03,679 --> 01:08:06,280
from either fraudulent illusion or the workings of the devil.

1214
01:08:06,840 --> 01:08:10,320
So this is the one side of things, right, one

1215
01:08:10,360 --> 01:08:14,239
side of things, which is because God doesn't work that

1216
01:08:14,280 --> 01:08:16,479
way anymore, if you encounter the sort of thing in

1217
01:08:16,520 --> 01:08:18,560
the world that has to always come from the devil.

1218
01:08:18,960 --> 01:08:21,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I've heard, I mean, I've seen, I've known

1219
01:08:21,439 --> 01:08:24,800
so many products that believe that. And therefore, if there's

1220
01:08:24,840 --> 01:08:28,359
a miracle, it's not a it's actually not a proof

1221
01:08:28,399 --> 01:08:30,039
that God is acting in the world. It's a proof

1222
01:08:30,119 --> 01:08:33,880
that these people are the rail and that this is heretical.

1223
01:08:34,119 --> 01:08:36,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, so they would actually look at, you know, somebody,

1224
01:08:37,119 --> 01:08:39,279
somebody coming from this point of view, which was the

1225
01:08:39,279 --> 01:08:42,960
point which it does not describe every Protestant. I know,

1226
01:08:43,399 --> 01:08:45,239
I know, you don't have to get in the comments guys,

1227
01:08:45,279 --> 01:08:47,520
I know, but it does describe the Protestants that I

1228
01:08:47,560 --> 01:08:50,600
was raised with. Now they would still say things like, yeah,

1229
01:08:50,600 --> 01:08:53,000
God might miract. The funny thing is everybody always had

1230
01:08:53,640 --> 01:08:57,399
a personal story about how God fixed their car or

1231
01:08:57,640 --> 01:08:59,520
like healed them when they were sick and dying or

1232
01:08:59,560 --> 01:09:03,680
something like that. People did have like personal stories. But

1233
01:09:03,960 --> 01:09:07,039
if if you were like, oh, yeah, there's uh, you know,

1234
01:09:07,880 --> 01:09:13,000
I don't know, the statue with the local Roman Catholic

1235
01:09:13,039 --> 01:09:15,039
church is weeping or something like that, be like, obviously

1236
01:09:15,039 --> 01:09:21,960
that's the devil. Yeah yeah, yeah, so, and yet the

1237
01:09:22,000 --> 01:09:24,399
interesting thing is that magic persists, and it persists in

1238
01:09:24,399 --> 01:09:26,800
groups like the Puritans. We talked about this a little

1239
01:09:26,800 --> 01:09:29,000
bit before, and I will come back to it. We

1240
01:09:29,039 --> 01:09:32,680
will do at least one more episode before like, just

1241
01:09:32,760 --> 01:09:35,319
for my own sanity, You guys gotta give me Mormonism.

1242
01:09:35,399 --> 01:09:37,159
Speaker 2: Is that what we're gonna do.

1243
01:09:37,199 --> 01:09:38,800
Speaker 1: You guys got to give me like a little break

1244
01:09:38,840 --> 01:09:40,640
and let me just go like do some like medieval

1245
01:09:40,680 --> 01:09:42,720
Irish stuff or something. I don't even care. We could

1246
01:09:42,720 --> 01:09:45,319
do Persia. I just gotta like, I just gotta take

1247
01:09:45,399 --> 01:09:47,319
like a little break from the modern world because it's

1248
01:09:47,359 --> 01:09:48,840
just like it's a little too much for me. But

1249
01:09:51,000 --> 01:09:53,279
we will do in our next episode, we will look

1250
01:09:53,560 --> 01:09:56,960
in much more depth at the way that the Puritans,

1251
01:09:58,680 --> 01:10:02,039
the Puritans were using Kabba law and the influence that

1252
01:10:02,119 --> 01:10:05,239
this may have had on, you know, the early early

1253
01:10:05,279 --> 01:10:07,159
founding of the American colonies.

1254
01:10:07,159 --> 01:10:08,119
Speaker 4: So we are going to look at that.

1255
01:10:09,960 --> 01:10:12,840
Speaker 1: But what he says is what Quinn says says for Puritans,

1256
01:10:12,840 --> 01:10:17,720
there were significant effiminities between reformed Christianity and magic that

1257
01:10:17,880 --> 01:10:20,239
labeled layfolk to switch from one to the other without

1258
01:10:20,239 --> 01:10:23,479
any sense of wrongdoing, and not just layfolk, but also

1259
01:10:23,640 --> 01:10:26,680
the clergy. Yeah, so you've got all these magical texts

1260
01:10:26,680 --> 01:10:29,239
in the early libraries at places like Harvard and so on,

1261
01:10:29,319 --> 01:10:33,800
which which began as seminaries for the educational clergy. So yeah,

1262
01:10:33,840 --> 01:10:35,319
so I don't know, there's there's a lot more that

1263
01:10:35,319 --> 01:10:38,760
we could say. The thing that I was really interested

1264
01:10:38,800 --> 01:10:41,560
in in the context of universal history again is this

1265
01:10:42,159 --> 01:10:44,479
is like what are the features of the American religion?

1266
01:10:44,640 --> 01:10:48,119
And it's a multi headed hydra, right, It's a multifaceted question,

1267
01:10:48,760 --> 01:10:51,159
and but I think I think to me one of

1268
01:10:51,159 --> 01:10:53,800
the one of the interesting ones is a pattern that

1269
01:10:53,800 --> 01:10:56,159
you could say something like, is that is something like

1270
01:10:56,479 --> 01:11:01,399
magical beginning secularized end right, where eventually the thing that

1271
01:11:01,399 --> 01:11:04,560
we have to do is just kind of look good,

1272
01:11:04,680 --> 01:11:06,439
you know, on the stage with the president. Like the

1273
01:11:06,479 --> 01:11:08,960
thing that we are eventually kind of going for is

1274
01:11:09,399 --> 01:11:12,359
like a kind of larger, kind of respectable thing, you know.

1275
01:11:12,520 --> 01:11:14,920
And so that's one of the reasons that a lot

1276
01:11:14,920 --> 01:11:18,359
of Mormons don't like Quinn's book, because they feel like

1277
01:11:18,399 --> 01:11:21,399
it kind of makes the whole thing seem like, you know,

1278
01:11:21,920 --> 01:11:24,880
like it's just cheesy or goofy or too magical or

1279
01:11:24,920 --> 01:11:29,920
something like this. And simultaneously, I would also say that

1280
01:11:30,399 --> 01:11:35,439
if your argument against Mormonism is its magical origins, like

1281
01:11:35,520 --> 01:11:37,640
or the fact that the supernaturalist involved, like, to me,

1282
01:11:37,640 --> 01:11:39,640
that seems like a very silly argument to make. Lots

1283
01:11:39,680 --> 01:11:42,319
of other good reasons to be an orthodox Christian not

1284
01:11:42,359 --> 01:11:42,800
a Mormon.

1285
01:11:43,199 --> 01:11:44,920
Speaker 4: But there's all that, you know.

1286
01:11:45,079 --> 01:11:47,039
Speaker 2: The restorationism, which is part of the.

1287
01:11:47,000 --> 01:11:52,279
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, yeah, the restorationism, yeahsticism of folk magic, you know,

1288
01:11:52,359 --> 01:11:55,039
this kind of these kind of connections, a form of

1289
01:11:55,079 --> 01:11:59,960
restorationism which would justify some of the things that are happening,

1290
01:12:00,079 --> 01:12:03,680
you could say, and then ultimately a secularization.

1291
01:12:04,680 --> 01:12:09,039
Speaker 1: And the interesting thing about America and like American religion

1292
01:12:09,079 --> 01:12:12,920
really is different. I mean I think it's it's, for

1293
01:12:13,000 --> 01:12:17,600
one thing, Americans just take religion, at least it's in

1294
01:12:17,720 --> 01:12:20,840
certain ways. Americans take religion probably more seriously than any

1295
01:12:20,880 --> 01:12:23,520
other country on the planet, and just in certain ways,

1296
01:12:23,600 --> 01:12:25,840
not in other ways. Like it's it's just it's different.

1297
01:12:26,000 --> 01:12:28,840
And that that's why it's so hard for Americans like

1298
01:12:28,880 --> 01:12:30,720
to go to another country and be like, oh, these

1299
01:12:30,760 --> 01:12:33,239
people are a bunch of you know, godless heathens with them,

1300
01:12:33,279 --> 01:12:35,199
which they might be but they might might also like

1301
01:12:35,600 --> 01:12:38,000
the way that Americans take religion seriously is to like,

1302
01:12:38,079 --> 01:12:40,119
you know, pummel you in the face with it, right,

1303
01:12:40,159 --> 01:12:45,000
that's you know. And but but because Americans are so

1304
01:12:45,039 --> 01:12:48,760
sort of natively religious, right, so that even even the

1305
01:12:49,359 --> 01:12:51,479
founding of our country has this of course, the faulting

1306
01:12:51,520 --> 01:12:55,159
of all countries has has a religious overtone. But our

1307
01:12:55,159 --> 01:12:57,439
country is just a new one, right, So actually, I

1308
01:12:57,439 --> 01:12:59,279
don't know if there's a if there are religious Is

1309
01:12:59,279 --> 01:13:01,199
there a religious to the founding of Canada?

1310
01:13:01,640 --> 01:13:05,600
Speaker 3: Well, for sure, I mean, yeah, the French explorers that

1311
01:13:05,680 --> 01:13:08,119
came here, they came on a miz you know, I

1312
01:13:09,079 --> 01:13:09,680
like champ.

1313
01:13:09,680 --> 01:13:11,359
Speaker 1: Well yeah, those guys for sure. But I meant like

1314
01:13:11,359 --> 01:13:13,159
when the English come in and they ruined everything for.

1315
01:13:13,159 --> 01:13:15,279
Speaker 3: You, The English, you know, the English were they were

1316
01:13:15,319 --> 01:13:18,039
just they were just thinking about making money.

1317
01:13:17,880 --> 01:13:19,000
Speaker 4: That's all they were. Yeah.

1318
01:13:19,079 --> 01:13:22,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, I didn't have that glorious vision of bringing the

1319
01:13:22,960 --> 01:13:25,359
word of God to uh, you know, to God.

1320
01:13:25,479 --> 01:13:30,680
Speaker 1: God has has recently severely rebuked my my my slagging

1321
01:13:30,680 --> 01:13:35,800
off the French through through several through several different things,

1322
01:13:36,640 --> 01:13:38,640
one of which of course, was was that my my

1323
01:13:38,680 --> 01:13:41,760
wife got this amazing French cookbook for Christmas and she's

1324
01:13:41,800 --> 01:13:43,800
just been cooking out of it every day this month,

1325
01:13:43,880 --> 01:13:47,319
and holy cow, you guys like I had no I

1326
01:13:47,640 --> 01:13:49,479
am sorry, I did not recognize your game.

1327
01:13:49,680 --> 01:13:50,760
Speaker 4: I know you're mysh.

1328
01:13:52,479 --> 01:13:54,760
Speaker 2: You know they're all this boiled.

1329
01:13:57,439 --> 01:14:00,119
Speaker 3: So anyway, I want to I want to tell you

1330
01:14:00,199 --> 01:14:02,399
one thing before we end, is that you know this

1331
01:14:02,399 --> 01:14:04,800
this podcast, like what we're doing together and like talking

1332
01:14:04,800 --> 01:14:08,359
about this as inspired Jean Philipp, JP Marceau and I

1333
01:14:08,920 --> 01:14:11,119
to do a kind of universal history of Quebec and

1334
01:14:11,199 --> 01:14:16,439
so in French we're doing this kind of analysis of

1335
01:14:16,479 --> 01:14:19,279
French Canada and now we're going through Champlain's story and

1336
01:14:19,399 --> 01:14:20,680
kind of talking about the miracles.

1337
01:14:21,359 --> 01:14:23,079
Speaker 4: Yeah, I am gonna have to get it.

1338
01:14:23,079 --> 01:14:25,199
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to get that translated or get that

1339
01:14:25,279 --> 01:14:26,760
robot to translate it or something like.

1340
01:14:26,800 --> 01:14:29,359
Speaker 4: I really would I really would enjoy I would really

1341
01:14:29,479 --> 01:14:29,840
enjoy that.

1342
01:14:29,920 --> 01:14:33,399
Speaker 1: But but yeah, I feel like, lest I be a hypocrite,

1343
01:14:33,439 --> 01:14:35,239
I need to switch to slagging off the English for

1344
01:14:35,239 --> 01:14:37,720
a little bit, So no offense English.

1345
01:14:38,079 --> 01:14:38,920
Speaker 4: That's that.

1346
01:14:38,920 --> 01:14:40,520
Speaker 1: That's what we're gonna do for the next little bit,

1347
01:14:40,600 --> 01:14:42,520
just to kind of like balance things out a little bit.

1348
01:14:42,600 --> 01:14:46,279
Like I can't not just make fun of somebody, you know,

1349
01:14:46,359 --> 01:14:47,800
like that's obviously that's not an option.

1350
01:14:47,880 --> 01:14:49,600
Speaker 4: So we're gonna switch to the English for a little bit.

1351
01:14:49,640 --> 01:14:53,880
Speaker 1: But no, in all seriousness, because America is such a

1352
01:14:54,119 --> 01:14:59,720
such a it's just such a fertile place. This thing

1353
01:14:59,800 --> 01:15:04,960
that happened with Mormonism and then happened later with the Charismatics,

1354
01:15:05,279 --> 01:15:08,000
you know, so like one hundred years later Charismatic group again,

1355
01:15:08,960 --> 01:15:11,880
it's restorationist. There's a working in this case. It's not

1356
01:15:11,920 --> 01:15:14,319
the Melchizedic prechood. It's some other working of the Holy Spirit.

1357
01:15:14,359 --> 01:15:16,079
But there's a working of the Holy Spirit that's been

1358
01:15:16,119 --> 01:15:19,039
totally absent, but now it's here. Zuza Street Revivals, all

1359
01:15:19,079 --> 01:15:21,840
this stuff, and then it starts to take this arc.

1360
01:15:22,720 --> 01:15:25,279
And the place that the arc for some people eventually

1361
01:15:25,319 --> 01:15:27,640
has to sort of end is going to be saying, well,

1362
01:15:27,880 --> 01:15:30,239
we want to be treated like a more respectable religion.

1363
01:15:30,319 --> 01:15:33,920
So there are these various aspects of traditional Christianity, the

1364
01:15:33,960 --> 01:15:37,279
Trinity and so on, you know, church fathers, et cetera,

1365
01:15:37,279 --> 01:15:39,199
et cetera, and we need to embrace some of those

1366
01:15:39,239 --> 01:15:40,760
things so we don't seem like we're just sort of

1367
01:15:40,760 --> 01:15:43,800
on the fringe. But then somebody will come along and

1368
01:15:44,119 --> 01:15:46,600
it's always happening. I talk at least once a week

1369
01:15:46,600 --> 01:15:50,800
to somebody who tells me God appeared to me and

1370
01:15:50,840 --> 01:15:54,279
he told me. Yeah, once a week.

1371
01:15:54,319 --> 01:15:56,000
Speaker 3: They told you that God appeared to you and that

1372
01:15:56,079 --> 01:15:58,159
he's the new He's the new priest in the Order

1373
01:15:58,159 --> 01:15:58,720
of mik No.

1374
01:15:58,720 --> 01:15:59,439
Speaker 4: No, it's not always that.

1375
01:15:59,479 --> 01:16:01,640
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's like a little Sometimes it's just like a

1376
01:16:01,640 --> 01:16:04,439
little personal revelation and they're like, was this from God

1377
01:16:04,560 --> 01:16:04,760
or not?

1378
01:16:04,840 --> 01:16:05,039
Speaker 5: You know?

1379
01:16:06,119 --> 01:16:07,800
Speaker 1: You know, I mean our cathedrals right in the middle

1380
01:16:07,840 --> 01:16:10,479
of a large, really huge urban area. You know, a

1381
01:16:10,479 --> 01:16:14,000
lot of people who who have no prior religious experience,

1382
01:16:14,039 --> 01:16:15,960
they come in because like our church looks like a church,

1383
01:16:15,960 --> 01:16:17,800
and so they wandering off the street and they're like, hey,

1384
01:16:18,359 --> 01:16:20,279
you know, God appeared to me and told me x

1385
01:16:20,399 --> 01:16:23,079
y z whatever, Like do you think this is you know, real?

1386
01:16:23,279 --> 01:16:27,920
Or you know, sometimes sometimes there are people who are

1387
01:16:28,119 --> 01:16:30,399
totally insane and you know, and like sit at the

1388
01:16:30,399 --> 01:16:33,359
back of the class making signs about how they're Jesus

1389
01:16:33,359 --> 01:16:35,119
of Nazareth or something like that. You know, just that

1390
01:16:35,199 --> 01:16:38,239
you have all these different things that happened. But but

1391
01:16:38,239 --> 01:16:42,319
but people, people still take these kinds of personal revelations

1392
01:16:42,399 --> 01:16:48,039
very seriously, and they do for certainly for like fundamentalist

1393
01:16:48,159 --> 01:16:51,279
Christianity present a huge kind of risk.

1394
01:16:51,680 --> 01:16:52,960
Speaker 4: They're the sort of huge problem.

1395
01:16:53,760 --> 01:16:57,760
Speaker 1: And the answer to that is to always say, you

1396
01:16:57,760 --> 01:17:00,359
know this, this couldn't have ever come from God, you

1397
01:17:00,399 --> 01:17:04,520
know so anyway. But what's interesting to me is that

1398
01:17:04,560 --> 01:17:07,119
this is a pattern. It seems to repeat, be repeating,

1399
01:17:07,239 --> 01:17:10,000
and I predict predictions are dangerous things.

1400
01:17:10,880 --> 01:17:11,720
Speaker 4: I'm not a prophet.

1401
01:17:12,159 --> 01:17:14,720
Speaker 1: I don't have little stones to put in my hat

1402
01:17:14,760 --> 01:17:17,279
and look inside and see what's going on. But if

1403
01:17:17,279 --> 01:17:19,119
you read the pattern, if you look at the ways

1404
01:17:19,159 --> 01:17:22,920
these patterns replicate each other, I predict this will happen again.

1405
01:17:23,239 --> 01:17:25,119
I think this is part of the kind of the

1406
01:17:25,159 --> 01:17:30,800
American pattern of things. So is that somebody will, yeah, definitely,

1407
01:17:30,800 --> 01:17:33,359
they'll have a they'll have a revelation, have something. And

1408
01:17:33,359 --> 01:17:35,319
of course this happens other parts of the world. But

1409
01:17:36,520 --> 01:17:39,680
what seems to be interesting about America, and then also

1410
01:17:39,720 --> 01:17:42,119
obviously places of America has influenced heavily.

1411
01:17:42,319 --> 01:17:42,760
Speaker 4: Someday.

1412
01:17:43,560 --> 01:17:46,319
Speaker 1: I don't think I'll ever do a podcast on religion

1413
01:17:46,359 --> 01:17:51,039
in South Korea, but somebody should do that. But the

1414
01:17:51,079 --> 01:17:53,640
thing about America is that when these movements take off.

1415
01:17:53,640 --> 01:17:56,359
They some of them have real legs. I mean, which

1416
01:17:56,439 --> 01:17:57,199
is which.

1417
01:17:57,000 --> 01:18:00,600
Speaker 3: Is actually something it's right there. It's not that it's

1418
01:18:00,600 --> 01:18:04,039
not completely because mostly these types of things burnt out

1419
01:18:04,119 --> 01:18:07,039
in one generation. By the time that's right, profit is

1420
01:18:07,119 --> 01:18:11,359
dead then gone. But there's something about uh, some of

1421
01:18:11,399 --> 01:18:15,159
these movements, especially the Mormon especially the LDS and and

1422
01:18:15,159 --> 01:18:17,600
the and I would say, like the Pentecostal movement.

1423
01:18:17,720 --> 01:18:19,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's like if it's.

1424
01:18:19,640 --> 01:18:22,479
Speaker 1: Much larger, I mean it's it will be, it will

1425
01:18:22,479 --> 01:18:25,479
buy the numbers probably be the largest form of Christianity

1426
01:18:25,479 --> 01:18:28,760
in America, if it's not already, it's the only it's

1427
01:18:28,760 --> 01:18:31,199
the only form of of you know, just just again

1428
01:18:31,239 --> 01:18:33,359
just by the numbers. It's the only form of Protestantism

1429
01:18:33,359 --> 01:18:35,720
that is still growing in America right now.

1430
01:18:36,520 --> 01:18:36,760
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1431
01:18:37,000 --> 01:18:39,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, but like even in terms of LDS, I mean,

1432
01:18:39,319 --> 01:18:41,680
I forget who it was recently that that I think

1433
01:18:41,720 --> 01:18:44,000
it was actually Jordan Peterson, right, I saw two days

1434
01:18:44,159 --> 01:18:46,600
you last week. He said if you had to pick

1435
01:18:46,640 --> 01:18:48,640
a place to live in the United States, Salt Lake

1436
01:18:48,680 --> 01:18:50,319
City wouldn't be so bad now with it.

1437
01:18:52,439 --> 01:18:55,800
Speaker 1: I mean, I'll just say, like, uh, if I were

1438
01:18:55,920 --> 01:18:57,640
if I were looking at plant if I was looking

1439
01:18:57,640 --> 01:19:00,520
at the plan an Orthodox parish somewhere right now, Salt

1440
01:19:00,600 --> 01:19:02,800
Lake Cities where it go. It's one of the fastest

1441
01:19:02,800 --> 01:19:06,159
growing parts of the world, parts of the country. It's

1442
01:19:06,920 --> 01:19:09,079
there's a lot of people. They are really interested in

1443
01:19:09,159 --> 01:19:16,119
Orthodoxy for various reasons. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so all right, anyway,

1444
01:19:16,319 --> 01:19:17,039
all right, was.

1445
01:19:16,960 --> 01:19:19,119
Speaker 2: That Enore one more America?

1446
01:19:19,439 --> 01:19:21,920
Speaker 3: Now we're gonna if we're I was like, are we

1447
01:19:21,920 --> 01:19:25,039
going to talk about Cabala today? And and we can

1448
01:19:25,079 --> 01:19:28,199
barely talk about Mormonism, Jonathan, We're barely talking about more

1449
01:19:28,560 --> 01:19:29,119
next time?

1450
01:19:29,920 --> 01:19:33,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, yes, So we'll talk about Kabala next time,

1451
01:19:33,600 --> 01:19:35,840
but it will be it'll be the special American version

1452
01:19:35,880 --> 01:19:38,880
of Kabala. So if you know things about Kabbala from

1453
01:19:38,920 --> 01:19:42,840
somewhere else, you would just assume that nothing I say

1454
01:19:42,840 --> 01:19:47,720
will apply to you. I'm only interested in Puritan Kabbala.

1455
01:19:47,920 --> 01:19:51,840
Speaker 2: So you don't like any Madonna La Kabbala? What about

1456
01:19:51,880 --> 01:19:52,239
that one?

1457
01:19:52,359 --> 01:19:54,520
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, yeah, yeah, well I think that's I

1458
01:19:54,560 --> 01:19:56,319
think that's the thing these two different guys that reach

1459
01:19:56,359 --> 01:19:57,520
out to me. I think that's the thing they were

1460
01:19:57,520 --> 01:19:59,800
afraid we were going to do. And I was like,

1461
01:20:00,000 --> 01:20:03,199
I was like, no, no, that's you know, no, we're

1462
01:20:03,239 --> 01:20:05,359
not We're not going to do that. So all right,

1463
01:20:05,359 --> 01:20:07,960
I'm not going to do that. Oh my gosh, this

1464
01:20:08,039 --> 01:20:10,680
is such weird energy. Yeah, this is a good episode.

1465
01:20:10,680 --> 01:20:11,600
This is fun, This is fun.

1466
01:20:11,680 --> 01:20:12,239
Speaker 4: Yep yep.

1467
01:20:12,319 --> 01:20:14,760
Speaker 1: So anyway, thanks to everybody who sent me books, Thanks

1468
01:20:14,800 --> 01:20:16,920
everybody who reached out. Thanks for all your kind messages.

1469
01:20:18,079 --> 01:20:20,960
I I you know again, at the end of the day,

1470
01:20:21,039 --> 01:20:25,000
I believe the fulfillment of everything Mormonism and everything else.

1471
01:20:25,039 --> 01:20:26,640
Speaker 4: You're going to find it in the Orthodox Church.

1472
01:20:27,760 --> 01:20:30,199
Speaker 1: And but thank you very much for all your your

1473
01:20:30,239 --> 01:20:35,079
kind notes and messages and books and YouTube videos and

1474
01:20:35,760 --> 01:20:40,439
d ms and calling me on the phone and sending

1475
01:20:40,439 --> 01:20:42,159
me letters in the mail and.

1476
01:20:42,279 --> 01:20:42,680
Speaker 4: All of it.

1477
01:20:42,760 --> 01:20:45,760
Speaker 1: Thank you for all of it. Truly truly a weird

1478
01:20:45,800 --> 01:20:48,279
life that I leave. I leave, but happy to be

1479
01:20:48,319 --> 01:20:49,039
doing it with you.

1480
01:20:49,119 --> 01:20:49,520
Speaker 4: Jonathan.

1481
01:20:49,560 --> 01:20:52,079
Speaker 3: That's right, that's great, all right, everyone happy you get

1482
01:20:52,119 --> 01:20:53,880
the brunt of it too. It's even better for me.

1483
01:20:54,279 --> 01:20:57,319
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh. Yeah, please send Jonathan some stuff you guys.

1484
01:20:57,439 --> 01:20:59,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, it was great to talk to you,

1485
01:21:00,279 --> 01:21:03,520
and this is fine. We will talk to you very soon.

1486
01:21:03,640 --> 01:21:05,319
Speaker 4: Bye bye, bye, guys.

1487
01:21:05,680 --> 01:21:10,279
Speaker 5: Greeting's friends, cosmographers, fellow symbolists. This is Joshua from Eighth

1488
01:21:10,359 --> 01:21:13,399
Day Books, inviting you to join me and studying a

1489
01:21:13,479 --> 01:21:18,520
remarkable cosmic coincidence. Why is it that writers, philosophers, and

1490
01:21:18,560 --> 01:21:22,600
prophets from many times in places have all told us

1491
01:21:22,960 --> 01:21:27,399
that contemplating the night sky makes our own souls similarly

1492
01:21:27,520 --> 01:21:32,079
more beautiful and more ordered? Hebrew and Hindu, Greek and Chinese.

1493
01:21:32,479 --> 01:21:36,479
They've all told us that looking up is the same

1494
01:21:36,880 --> 01:21:39,920
as looking in, and that we are as much citizens

1495
01:21:39,960 --> 01:21:44,560
of the sky as we are of earth. In February,

1496
01:21:44,600 --> 01:21:48,520
we will be looking at Pythagorea and folk tales, biblical wisdom, literature,

1497
01:21:49,000 --> 01:21:53,079
and contemporary novelists to ask these questions. It'll be a

1498
01:21:53,199 --> 01:21:57,840
challenging course, but not technical. I teach medieval philosophy and

1499
01:21:57,920 --> 01:22:00,800
Renaissance literature, and I'm condensing a year year's worth of

1500
01:22:01,039 --> 01:22:05,319
information into a few wonderfilled hours. Please join me for

1501
01:22:05,399 --> 01:22:09,520
some Plato, some poetry, and some practical skygazing, all to

1502
01:22:09,640 --> 01:22:13,800
help us pursue the art of imitating Heaven. See you

1503
01:22:13,960 --> 01:22:14,399
very soon.

1504
01:22:23,960 --> 01:22:26,840
Speaker 3: If you enjoyed these videos and podcasts, please go to

1505
01:22:26,880 --> 01:22:29,560
the Symbolic World dot com website and see how you

1506
01:22:29,600 --> 01:22:32,680
can support what we're doing. There are multiple subscriber tiers

1507
01:22:32,760 --> 01:22:35,720
with perks. There are apparel and books to purchase. So

1508
01:22:35,800 --> 01:22:37,880
go to the Symbolic World dot com and thank you

1509
01:22:38,199 --> 01:22:38,960
for your support.