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That's chumbuck 21 00:00:56.799 --> 00:00:57.640 Casino dot com. 22 00:00:57.679 --> 00:00:59.960 No'll purg necessary Dvoid, where everybody lost in terms of it. 23 00:01:11.359 --> 00:01:14.799 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 24 00:01:14.879 --> 00:01:17.920 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 25 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:25.280 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every 26 00:01:25.319 --> 00:01:29.000 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 27 00:01:29.079 --> 00:01:33.560 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 28 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:36.519 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 29 00:01:46.719 --> 00:01:51.719 Good Evening, best selling true crime master Harold Scheckter explores 30 00:01:51.760 --> 00:01:56.959 the real life headline making psychos, serial murders, thrill hungry couples, 31 00:01:57.359 --> 00:02:00.959 and lady killers who inspired a century of classic films. 32 00:02:02.400 --> 00:02:07.239 The necktie murders in Alfred Hitchcock's Frenzy Chicago jazz age, 33 00:02:07.280 --> 00:02:11.039 Crime of Passion, the fatal hookup in Looking for Mister Goodbar, 34 00:02:11.879 --> 00:02:15.599 the high school horrors committed by the costume slasher and scream. 35 00:02:17.240 --> 00:02:20.000 These and other cinematic crimes have become part of pop 36 00:02:20.039 --> 00:02:24.919 culture history, and each found inspiration and true events that 37 00:02:25.000 --> 00:02:29.599 provided the raw material for our greatest blockbusters, indie art films, 38 00:02:29.919 --> 00:02:35.840 black comedies, Hollywood classics, and grindhouse horrors. So what's the 39 00:02:35.879 --> 00:02:40.840 reality behind Psycho bad Lands? The Hills have eyes a 40 00:02:40.919 --> 00:02:44.960 place in the Sun, Arsenic and Old Lace and Dirty Harry. 41 00:02:46.199 --> 00:02:49.680 How did such tabloid ready killers as Bonnie and Clyde, 42 00:02:50.039 --> 00:02:54.599 body snatchers, Burke and Hare, Texas sniper Charles Whitman, junior 43 00:02:55.240 --> 00:02:59.560 nurse slayer, Richard Speck, and Leopold and Loeb exert their 44 00:02:59.599 --> 00:03:02.639 power on the public imagination and become the stuff of 45 00:03:03.240 --> 00:03:08.479 movie lore. In this collection of revelatory essays, true crime 46 00:03:08.599 --> 00:03:12.800 historian Harold Scheckter takes a fascinating trip down the crossroads 47 00:03:12.800 --> 00:03:16.039 in fact and fiction to reveal the sensational, real life 48 00:03:16.039 --> 00:03:20.840 stories that are more shocking, taboo, and fantastic than even 49 00:03:20.840 --> 00:03:24.680 the most imaginative screenwriter can dream up. The book that 50 00:03:24.719 --> 00:03:28.039 we're featuring this evening is Ripped from the headlines, the 51 00:03:28.080 --> 00:03:32.280 shocking true stories behind the movie's most memorable crimes, with 52 00:03:32.400 --> 00:03:36.240 my special guest, journalist and author and historian Harold Scheckter. 53 00:03:36.719 --> 00:03:39.120 Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much 54 00:03:39.199 --> 00:03:39.840 for this interview. 55 00:03:40.000 --> 00:03:44.360 Harold Scheckter, Well, thank you for having leon. Always a 56 00:03:44.360 --> 00:03:45.360 pleasure to talk to you. 57 00:03:46.639 --> 00:03:50.159 It's always a great pleasure to speak with you again. 58 00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:56.280 Congratulations on this book, incredible rip from the headlines. Let's 59 00:03:56.319 --> 00:03:57.000 start off with. 60 00:03:57.879 --> 00:04:02.240 Yeah, very proud of it. Hard book to write in 61 00:04:02.280 --> 00:04:07.759 many ways, you know, required double amount of research in 62 00:04:07.800 --> 00:04:12.680 a way that I usually do. Yes, had a research 63 00:04:12.840 --> 00:04:16.600 both the movies and the crimes based on it. I mean. 64 00:04:16.639 --> 00:04:21.240 The premise of the book is that nowadays, or at 65 00:04:21.319 --> 00:04:25.560 least up until relatively recently, when you could go to 66 00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:30.000 a movie, you would go to a movie and very 67 00:04:30.040 --> 00:04:35.439 commonly see a title card at the beginning announcing that 68 00:04:35.480 --> 00:04:37.759 it was based on true events or based on a 69 00:04:37.800 --> 00:04:43.920 true story. That didn't happen so much in the old days. 70 00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:47.000 In fact, it was more common for there to be 71 00:04:47.040 --> 00:04:51.240 a disclaimer at the end of the movie saying that 72 00:04:51.759 --> 00:04:56.639 any resemblance to real people or real events was purely coincidental. 73 00:04:57.839 --> 00:05:03.079 But in fact, during Hollywood's Golden Age and before and after, 74 00:05:05.000 --> 00:05:10.480 screenwriters often turned to the newspapers and sensational crimes as 75 00:05:10.519 --> 00:05:13.480 the inspiration for their screenplays. And there are a lot 76 00:05:13.519 --> 00:05:17.879 of movies ranging from classic films like Anatomy of the 77 00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:23.319 Murder and Arsenic and o' Lace to cult films like 78 00:05:23.439 --> 00:05:26.360 Toby her Hooper's Eating Alive and The Hills Have and 79 00:05:26.399 --> 00:05:30.399 West Cravens The Hills Have Eyes, which you know viewers 80 00:05:31.920 --> 00:05:37.759 often don't realize were based on true events. So yeah, 81 00:05:37.759 --> 00:05:41.240 so that's what my book does. My book contains looks 82 00:05:41.240 --> 00:05:49.439 at forty movies and then recounts the actual crimes that 83 00:05:49.600 --> 00:05:53.680 inspired them. 84 00:05:53.959 --> 00:05:59.600 Right now, one of the kN before we talk about 85 00:05:59.639 --> 00:06:03.800 some of the these famous movies and from often books 86 00:06:03.839 --> 00:06:07.439 that were bestsellers and then were adapted into movies. And 87 00:06:07.759 --> 00:06:11.759 a lot of these movies, the source, the real life 88 00:06:11.800 --> 00:06:17.319 criminal source crime source spawns more than one movie. So 89 00:06:17.519 --> 00:06:20.480 just briefly tell us a couple of the directors that 90 00:06:21.600 --> 00:06:25.720 you were especially covering in this book just because of 91 00:06:26.639 --> 00:06:29.639 some of the numbers of movies that they made concerning 92 00:06:29.879 --> 00:06:32.199 or at least were inspired by real crimes, but also 93 00:06:32.639 --> 00:06:36.639 that you thought were had done some very memorable movies 94 00:06:37.399 --> 00:06:39.240 regarding these true life crimes. 95 00:06:40.720 --> 00:06:46.600 Well, I mean, Hitchcock appears I think three three times, 96 00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:50.839 let's say maybe four times in the book Psycho of course, 97 00:06:51.800 --> 00:06:54.560 and maybe we can talk a little bit about how 98 00:06:54.600 --> 00:06:57.480 I first got into the subject, which was through Psycho, 99 00:06:58.519 --> 00:07:03.040 then Rope, then Frenzy and then Shadow of a Doubt. 100 00:07:03.079 --> 00:07:08.120 All all four of those films were inspired by true cases. 101 00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:12.959 Other well, Fritz Lang has a couple of movies in there. 102 00:07:14.199 --> 00:07:17.959 One Am the great classic m which made Peter Laurie 103 00:07:17.959 --> 00:07:22.720 into an international movie star, and a movie called Fury. Actually, 104 00:07:22.759 --> 00:07:28.120 I think Fritz Lang has three movies. There's also Uh, 105 00:07:28.439 --> 00:07:32.160 You Only Live Once, which was a Frince Fritz Lang 106 00:07:32.199 --> 00:07:38.120 production might even be a fourth Mutcher or third. But 107 00:07:38.240 --> 00:07:40.279 you know, there are a lot of great directors in 108 00:07:40.279 --> 00:07:45.199 their auto premeger For example, the director of Anatomy of 109 00:07:45.199 --> 00:07:51.279 a Murder, George Stevens, the great American director who directed 110 00:07:51.319 --> 00:07:54.120 one of my all time favorite movies, The Western Shane 111 00:07:54.800 --> 00:07:57.680 is in there with a Place in the Sun. So again, 112 00:07:57.839 --> 00:08:03.519 you know, rangers from classic movies directed by great ou 113 00:08:03.639 --> 00:08:10.160 teur directors to some less great movies, although you know 114 00:08:10.199 --> 00:08:16.439 the ones that I cover that are you know more 115 00:08:19.040 --> 00:08:25.439 well more less highly regarded, possibly by serious high brassitias. 116 00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:29.560 You know, there are still directed by excellent directors. I mean, 117 00:08:30.040 --> 00:08:32.639 you know, Wes Craven has two movies in there, The 118 00:08:32.679 --> 00:08:36.759 Hills Have Eyes and Scream. Toby Hooper. Yeah, I'm not 119 00:08:36.799 --> 00:08:39.639 sure what happened to Toby Hooper. You know, the Texas 120 00:08:39.679 --> 00:08:43.159 Chains of Massacre. I regard, as many people do, as 121 00:08:43.200 --> 00:08:47.159 this great masterpiece of horror and then his follow up 122 00:08:47.799 --> 00:08:51.480 and pretty much all his subsequent movies were kind of 123 00:08:51.519 --> 00:08:55.879 disappointing and so anyway, but so yeah, so there's a 124 00:08:56.000 --> 00:08:57.480 range of directors in there. 125 00:08:59.440 --> 00:09:02.679 So as you alluded to tell us about Psycho and 126 00:09:03.240 --> 00:09:07.039 how this project, the genesis of this project, and its 127 00:09:07.120 --> 00:09:11.080 relation to Psycho in that story and movie, well. 128 00:09:10.919 --> 00:09:16.759 I mean it was through Psycho and Texas Transa Massacre 129 00:09:17.360 --> 00:09:24.879 that I first got into the whole true crime game. 130 00:09:26.720 --> 00:09:31.919 I up until that time had been writing books about 131 00:09:31.919 --> 00:09:36.679 whatever subject caught my interest at the time, and I 132 00:09:36.759 --> 00:09:40.399 was writing a book called Film Tricks It's going back 133 00:09:40.480 --> 00:09:44.360 to the late nineteen eighties, which was a history of 134 00:09:44.840 --> 00:09:48.639 cinematic special effects, going back to George Melier. This was 135 00:09:48.720 --> 00:09:53.200 before the whole CGI revolution, And when I was working 136 00:09:53.480 --> 00:09:58.320 on the chapter on horror effects, I came across what 137 00:09:58.600 --> 00:10:01.720 was then the relat actively little known fact. It was 138 00:10:01.799 --> 00:10:06.039 unknown to me that both Psycho and Texas Chang Saw Massacre, 139 00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:10.320 which I regarded and probably still regard as the two 140 00:10:10.559 --> 00:10:15.320 greatest horror movies ever made, had both been inspired by 141 00:10:15.320 --> 00:10:19.679 a real life case out of ed Geen, the midwestern 142 00:10:20.399 --> 00:10:27.240 Wisconsin necrofile. And you know that was very fascinating to me. 143 00:10:27.360 --> 00:10:30.600 So I began to research that case, and that became 144 00:10:31.720 --> 00:10:37.600 the first of my true crime books, Deviant. And at 145 00:10:37.600 --> 00:10:39.879 that time when I published ev And Signs of Lambs 146 00:10:39.879 --> 00:10:42.399 hadn't yet come out, And of course Signs of Lambs 147 00:10:42.399 --> 00:10:45.320 also threw on the game case and the figure of 148 00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:48.240 Buffalo Bill, So in a way, you know, that was 149 00:10:48.320 --> 00:10:54.000 my first awareness of this. I was also until my 150 00:10:54.159 --> 00:10:59.320 recent retirement after forty two years, I was, as I 151 00:10:59.320 --> 00:11:02.000 think you may not, a teacher of America, a professor 152 00:11:02.039 --> 00:11:06.559 of American literature at Queen's College, and I was aware 153 00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:12.159 that certain classics of American literature, very notably, for example, 154 00:11:12.200 --> 00:11:18.639 theodorege Reisers of American Tragedy have been based on real crimes. So, uh, 155 00:11:18.759 --> 00:11:21.360 you know that fed into this too, especially since the 156 00:11:21.440 --> 00:11:25.799 Dreiser movie then became made into that great, the great 157 00:11:25.799 --> 00:11:29.120 George Stevens movie Placed in the Sun, So all those things, 158 00:11:29.519 --> 00:11:36.080 you know, the the topic of how real crimes get 159 00:11:36.159 --> 00:11:41.639 transformed into different forms of literature and popular entertainment. Uh, 160 00:11:41.720 --> 00:11:43.159 you know, it's been with me for a while. 161 00:11:45.320 --> 00:11:51.639 Right, Let's give the audience an example of this, the 162 00:11:51.720 --> 00:11:55.120 movie and then the inspiration with anatomy of a Murder 163 00:11:55.159 --> 00:12:01.159 by director Otto Premager James Stewart starring Lee rem Ben Gazera. 164 00:12:02.840 --> 00:12:07.320 Tell us a little bit about this lawyer, John D. Vulker, 165 00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:12.200 because this is the pivotal person in this entire story, 166 00:12:12.960 --> 00:12:14.960 both the end real life. 167 00:12:15.039 --> 00:12:24.399 Yeah. Well, Vulker had been a lawyer in the Michigan's 168 00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:29.240 Upper Peninsula. Uh and uh, you know, he had been 169 00:12:29.279 --> 00:12:34.480 writing some books and then got the inspiration to write 170 00:12:34.799 --> 00:12:40.960 a fictionalized version of of what was locally a very 171 00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:47.440 notorious murder case where he had been the defense attorney. Ah. 172 00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:51.919 And the book Anatomy of a Murder became a big 173 00:12:51.960 --> 00:12:58.799 best seller and then was transformed into this very powerful 174 00:12:59.120 --> 00:13:03.080 and in many ways for the time kind of radical movie 175 00:13:03.200 --> 00:13:09.080 because challenged a lot of the censorship restrictions of what 176 00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:13.799 was called the Hayes Code at that time. Actually, it's 177 00:13:13.799 --> 00:13:17.159 an interesting example of what I kind of alluded to earlier, 178 00:13:17.240 --> 00:13:23.320 because Volker claimed that his novel was a work of 179 00:13:23.399 --> 00:13:30.159 pure fiction, right, but it followed the details of the 180 00:13:30.399 --> 00:13:34.240 true life case so closely. And when the movie came out, 181 00:13:34.279 --> 00:13:38.159 both he and Auto Premager got sued by the widow 182 00:13:39.039 --> 00:13:42.679 of the victim and the case for the way the 183 00:13:42.720 --> 00:13:46.519 movie portrayed the character who is based on her husband, 184 00:13:47.720 --> 00:13:52.519 but essentially both the film and the real life case 185 00:13:52.639 --> 00:14:00.720 had to do with a tavern keeper who was well. 186 00:14:01.240 --> 00:14:04.559 It had to do with an army lieutenant who shoots 187 00:14:04.559 --> 00:14:11.000 and kills a tavern keeper because the husband believes, or 188 00:14:11.039 --> 00:14:14.480 has been told by his wife that she was raped 189 00:14:14.840 --> 00:14:17.960 by the tavern keeper, that the tavern keeper had offered 190 00:14:17.960 --> 00:14:20.919 her a ride home. She had been in the tavern 191 00:14:20.919 --> 00:14:24.120 by herself, he'd offered her a ride home, and he 192 00:14:24.159 --> 00:14:29.240 had brutally raped her, and the husband after making her 193 00:14:29.399 --> 00:14:33.399 This is again both in real life and in the book. 194 00:14:33.440 --> 00:14:36.840 In the film, which followed the case very closely, the husband, 195 00:14:36.840 --> 00:14:40.080 after making her swear in a bible if that's what happened, 196 00:14:40.879 --> 00:14:44.399 took his service. Revolver went to the bar and just 197 00:14:45.000 --> 00:14:50.639 shut this tavern keeper down, and he believed that he 198 00:14:50.679 --> 00:14:54.759 would be exonerated based on what is commonly called the 199 00:14:54.840 --> 00:15:02.519 unwritten law, which was supposedly a man a husband is 200 00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:08.159 entitled to shoot the man who is his wife. He 201 00:15:08.320 --> 00:15:11.559 was promptly informed that there was actually no such thing 202 00:15:11.720 --> 00:15:14.879 legally as an unwritten law, and it became again a 203 00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:20.039 very very sensational murder trial which Volker got the lieutenant 204 00:15:20.120 --> 00:15:27.120 acquitted on the basis of what was called irresistible impulse. 205 00:15:28.440 --> 00:15:30.279 And that's what you know, that's what happens in the movies. 206 00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:32.720 I mean the movie you know, ads at the end 207 00:15:32.960 --> 00:15:38.360 a very surprised kind of Perry Mason like sudden revelation. 208 00:15:39.679 --> 00:15:42.440 But anyway, it's terrific movie, as you say, starring Jimmy 209 00:15:42.480 --> 00:15:46.720 Stewart as the as the defense attorney, and was the 210 00:15:46.840 --> 00:15:50.840 debut film of both Ben Gazzara as the husband and 211 00:15:50.919 --> 00:15:55.720 George C. Scott who plays the rather oily prosecuting attorney 212 00:15:55.879 --> 00:16:01.159 who is Jimmy Stewart's opponent courtroom opponent, and Lee Remick 213 00:16:01.679 --> 00:16:07.240 at her most beautiful as the life. So h and 214 00:16:07.279 --> 00:16:09.559 as I said, I mean, one of the interesting things, 215 00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:12.480 kind of a landmark film because you know, the Hayes 216 00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:20.840 code had held sway over Hollywood for decades. You know, 217 00:16:21.080 --> 00:16:23.720 the filmmakers weren't even allowed to use the word pregnant. 218 00:16:24.519 --> 00:16:28.600 Uh And the movie was considered to be very very 219 00:16:28.679 --> 00:16:31.320 very sexually frank at the time. In fact, so much 220 00:16:31.360 --> 00:16:36.399 so that supposedly, and from what I've read it was 221 00:16:36.440 --> 00:16:41.039 actually true, James Stewart's father took out advertisements in his 222 00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:44.759 local papers urging his neighbors not to see the film 223 00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:49.200 because it was indecent. Anyway, any of your listeners who 224 00:16:49.240 --> 00:16:52.960 have not seen it, I highly recommend. It's one of 225 00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:55.240 the great question dramas of Hollywood. 226 00:16:56.279 --> 00:16:59.720 Yeah, and you're right too that the actual locations were 227 00:16:59.720 --> 00:17:02.799 filmed the tavern and Bulker's home and law office in 228 00:17:02.879 --> 00:17:05.000 the courthouse where the trial is conducted. 229 00:17:05.880 --> 00:17:11.319 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Premature insisted on absolute authenticity, So yes, 230 00:17:11.400 --> 00:17:15.839 he went to the town in Michigan's Upper Peninsula and 231 00:17:15.920 --> 00:17:19.519 shat Lolla location where these events really happened. And the 232 00:17:19.559 --> 00:17:24.920 other interesting point about the movie is at the presiding Judge, 233 00:17:25.400 --> 00:17:30.319 Joseph Welch, has become this kind of legendary during the 234 00:17:30.359 --> 00:17:37.839 annals of American judas prudence, and because he was the 235 00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:42.960 man who during the infamous Army McCarthy hearings in the 236 00:17:43.039 --> 00:17:47.279 nineteen fifties, you know, finally confronted McCarthy, you know, said 237 00:17:47.519 --> 00:17:50.480 very famously, at long last, there have you no decency, 238 00:17:51.880 --> 00:17:55.319 which many people regard as the beginning of McCarthy's downfall. 239 00:17:55.559 --> 00:18:05.079 So that it's an important historic certainly, let's talk about 240 00:18:05.079 --> 00:18:08.119 one that it's surprising that it would have I think, 241 00:18:08.200 --> 00:18:10.440 at face value would be surprising that it would have 242 00:18:10.480 --> 00:18:15.000 a connection to a real life murder whrror, but Arsenic 243 00:18:15.039 --> 00:18:19.880 and Old Lace director Frank Capra's classic starring Carry Grant, 244 00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:24.799 Peter Lorie, Priscilla Lane, Raymond Massey, this is about us 245 00:18:25.000 --> 00:18:32.920 serial killer praying on strangers, well strangers, But this is 246 00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:38.960 not about serial killers praying on strangers, but it's about poisoners. 247 00:18:39.720 --> 00:18:42.000 Well. Art Snake of Old Lace, you know, is considered 248 00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:45.160 one of the you know, classic comedies of that era, 249 00:18:46.359 --> 00:18:51.880 and it's basically about these sort of dotty old maiden 250 00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:58.519 aunts of Carrie Grant who run a kind of boarding 251 00:18:58.559 --> 00:19:05.720 house taken elderly you know, elderly men and you know, 252 00:19:05.720 --> 00:19:08.480 who are not of the best of health, and then 253 00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:13.799 at some point treat them to some poisoned elderberry wine 254 00:19:14.400 --> 00:19:17.359 and give them Christian burials in the basement of the house. 255 00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:21.559 And you know, it's largely I think because of arsenic 256 00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:27.599 Old Lace, that this image of female serial poisoners as 257 00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:31.559 or or the image of that kind of poison murder, 258 00:19:32.920 --> 00:19:36.480 you know, has taken on this kind of aura some quaint, 259 00:19:36.839 --> 00:19:42.680 old fashioned Victorian way of disposing of people. 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At Shumba Casino dot. 290 00:21:13.160 --> 00:21:15.599 Com, no were necessary Dallypod where everybody lost in terms 291 00:21:15.599 --> 00:21:16.559 conditions eighting plus. 292 00:21:16.440 --> 00:21:18.880 Follows, which was you know, quite a bit of money 293 00:21:18.920 --> 00:21:22.920 at that time, or actually, well, I think the flat 294 00:21:23.000 --> 00:21:25.599 sea was about one thousand dollars, which was equivalent to 295 00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:30.559 thirty thousand dollars today. And then instead of caring for 296 00:21:30.640 --> 00:21:34.519 them as promised, she would just poison them and you know, 297 00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:38.400 dispose of the bodies or claim that they had died, 298 00:21:39.079 --> 00:21:43.759 you know, of natural causes, and you know, she would 299 00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:47.400 take their possessions and whatever money they had and so on. 300 00:21:50.480 --> 00:21:55.720 But Amy Archer Gilligan was I became very interested in 301 00:21:55.759 --> 00:21:59.880 the phenomenon of female serial murder a number of years 302 00:22:00.119 --> 00:22:03.559 go when I was researching and writing a book called 303 00:22:03.559 --> 00:22:09.400 Fatal about a female, a very prolific female serial killer 304 00:22:09.480 --> 00:22:16.039 named Jane Toppin who confessed to thirty one murders at 305 00:22:16.039 --> 00:22:21.359 the turn of the twentieth century, and she was regarded. 306 00:22:22.200 --> 00:22:25.640 She was listed at one point in kind of Spook 307 00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:30.720 of World's Records as America's most prolific serial killer until 308 00:22:30.759 --> 00:22:35.680 she was supplanted by John Wayne Gacy. And in researching 309 00:22:35.720 --> 00:22:39.759 and writing that book, I you know, up until then, 310 00:22:40.160 --> 00:22:45.240 the standard line was that Aileen Warnos had been America's 311 00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:50.119 first serial killer. But you know, but I became aware 312 00:22:50.240 --> 00:22:55.319 that there had been a great many of these female 313 00:22:55.319 --> 00:22:59.599 serial poisoners who had killed way more people than Aleen 314 00:22:59.640 --> 00:23:05.279 Warners did. And also I realized, I came to realize 315 00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:09.599 that the way these female serial killers murdered their victims 316 00:23:10.240 --> 00:23:14.400 was in a way far more sadistic. And let's say, 317 00:23:14.440 --> 00:23:16.680 what Aileen ware has did, you know, because Alien warned 318 00:23:16.680 --> 00:23:20.640 to have got these guys down, whereas Jane Tappen and 319 00:23:20.880 --> 00:23:24.400 other people, you know, would subject their victims to these 320 00:23:24.440 --> 00:23:29.640 agonized deaths and sometimes very prolonged agonizing deaths because they 321 00:23:29.640 --> 00:23:32.680 wouldn't just kill them, you know, swiftly, they would make 322 00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:38.000 them sick and sicker and until they died. So yeah, 323 00:23:38.039 --> 00:23:42.240 so I'd become aware of Amy Archer Gilligan as one 324 00:23:42.279 --> 00:23:48.319 of America's premiere female serial killers at that point, and 325 00:23:48.519 --> 00:23:52.319 it was while doing my research on that subject that 326 00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:55.759 I became aware of her connection to the Frank Capra movie. 327 00:23:56.759 --> 00:23:59.039 At which I have to say, is you know, again 328 00:23:59.079 --> 00:24:02.680 the only case of the book in which your real 329 00:24:02.720 --> 00:24:09.359 life sensational murder case got transformed into a beloved comedy. 330 00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:13.640 Interesting too that when I look and I think other 331 00:24:13.880 --> 00:24:18.519 true crime fans will have this as well. They're quite 332 00:24:18.599 --> 00:24:22.200 familiar with some of the famous killers in this book 333 00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:24.799 and serial killers in this book, but not so much 334 00:24:25.559 --> 00:24:28.559 the connection to movies that we've heard of but maybe 335 00:24:28.759 --> 00:24:31.319 not have seen, especially who we didn't know there was 336 00:24:31.359 --> 00:24:34.519 a connection. You talk about bad Lands, What is the 337 00:24:34.559 --> 00:24:38.400 inspiration for the movie with bad Lands starring Martin Sheen 338 00:24:38.559 --> 00:24:43.519 Sissy Spasic, who are the inspiration of the movie bad Lands? 339 00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:52.519 Well, it was one of the very sensational murder cases 340 00:24:53.640 --> 00:24:57.200 of the nineteen fifties concerned a guy, a young man 341 00:24:57.319 --> 00:25:01.599 named Charlie Starkweather who is a kind of James Dean 342 00:25:02.079 --> 00:25:07.640 wannabe and a total sociopath, and his underage fourteen year 343 00:25:07.640 --> 00:25:14.599 old girlfriend Caroline Fugate who went on this killing spree 344 00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:22.640 in the bad Lands of Nebraska, you know, and it 345 00:25:22.759 --> 00:25:25.119 was a huge case. I mean there was, you know, 346 00:25:25.240 --> 00:25:29.359 made nationwide headlines, and you know, Starkweather and Fugate have 347 00:25:30.359 --> 00:25:37.720 kind of achieved I would say, you know, among crime 348 00:25:37.720 --> 00:25:43.880 aficionados something of the legendary status of some of the 349 00:25:43.960 --> 00:25:47.039 you know, Bonnie and Clyde for example, you know, they 350 00:25:47.160 --> 00:25:49.960 were this uh you know, and and and you know, 351 00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:54.359 they've been the basis of a number of movies I 352 00:25:54.480 --> 00:25:57.359 mentioned in the book. I mean so so yes. The 353 00:25:57.359 --> 00:26:01.640 The Terrence Malickville bad Lands, which is one of the 354 00:26:01.680 --> 00:26:07.200 most stunning cinematic debuts in the history of movies, you know, 355 00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:10.720 is a real masterpiece. I mean, it stars Charlie Sheen 356 00:26:11.720 --> 00:26:16.279 as stark Weather and Sissy Spacek is few get I 357 00:26:16.319 --> 00:26:18.920 mean they have you know, they have other names in 358 00:26:18.920 --> 00:26:22.200 the film, but it's very closely based on them and 359 00:26:22.599 --> 00:26:26.480 follows their crime spree very closely. There's another film, a 360 00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:33.880 low budget shocker called The Sadist, which is also based 361 00:26:33.880 --> 00:26:37.319 on the stark Weather Foodgate sprint in that movie, although 362 00:26:37.400 --> 00:26:40.720 it doesn't match malix film as the work of cinematic art. 363 00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:47.279 In a way captures the sociopathic nature of Charlie stark 364 00:26:47.359 --> 00:26:52.720 Weather more than Malex film, does you know. Malex film 365 00:26:52.759 --> 00:26:57.839 is so beautiful and so aestheticized a little a little 366 00:26:57.920 --> 00:27:04.839 dulls the horror of us of what they did. But say, 367 00:27:05.359 --> 00:27:07.920 you know, yeah, anyway, yes, I'm sorry. 368 00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:12.960 Mm hm. You talk about movies that Dillinger and the 369 00:27:13.039 --> 00:27:18.519 crimes of John Dillinger and his infamy inspired, like High Sierra. 370 00:27:20.759 --> 00:27:23.200 Tell us about a couple of movies that the crimes 371 00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:24.720 of John Dillinger inspired. 372 00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:30.599 Oh, well, you know there have been a number well 373 00:27:30.680 --> 00:27:35.200 High Sierra, you know, with Humphrey Bogard who plays a 374 00:27:35.319 --> 00:27:40.160 Dillinger like character. Uh and uh, but you know it's 375 00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:44.200 a you know, there are some films like bad Lands 376 00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:49.039 or uh Compulsion, let's say, or Anatomy of a Murder 377 00:27:49.759 --> 00:27:55.359 that are inspired by true crimes that follow the uh 378 00:27:55.640 --> 00:27:58.920 you know, that follow the cases very very closely. Then 379 00:27:58.960 --> 00:28:07.079 there are other films like High Sierra, Scream and one 380 00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:11.400 or two others that were inspired by these real crimes, 381 00:28:11.440 --> 00:28:16.400 but you know, really are very use them as a springboard, 382 00:28:17.799 --> 00:28:21.279 you know, to tell a fictional life story. And that's 383 00:28:21.319 --> 00:28:24.799 the case of High Sierra. I mean it uses Dillinger, 384 00:28:24.960 --> 00:28:28.119 you know, public enemy number one, one of the you know, 385 00:28:28.319 --> 00:28:33.880 legendary gangsters of that period. You know, it's a springboard 386 00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:37.359 for this film. But but but there were a number, 387 00:28:37.400 --> 00:28:41.720 but there have been a number of biopics made about Dillinger. 388 00:28:42.079 --> 00:28:46.599 It was a nineteen forty five movie h called Dillinger 389 00:28:46.680 --> 00:28:52.440 with Lawrence Chierney, who I was just I was just 390 00:28:52.519 --> 00:28:59.839 rewatching Quentin Tarantino's Reservoir Dogs. Chierney plays, you know, the 391 00:29:00.119 --> 00:29:05.759 who was in charge of the whole thing, you know. 392 00:29:05.880 --> 00:29:11.480 Then there was a nineteen seventy two movie Dillinger, which 393 00:29:11.680 --> 00:29:17.160 was the directorial debut of John Millius, you know, the 394 00:29:17.279 --> 00:29:21.799 very known for these two fisted, red blooded movies like 395 00:29:21.880 --> 00:29:25.799 Conan the Barbarian and Red Dawn and who also wrote 396 00:29:25.839 --> 00:29:30.680 the screenplay for Apocalypse Now and the Dirty Harry sequel 397 00:29:31.599 --> 00:29:38.039 Magnum Force. And in that one, Warren Oates, the late 398 00:29:38.119 --> 00:29:45.279 great Warren Oates, plays Dillinger. So recommend that. And then 399 00:29:45.720 --> 00:29:50.519 there was a John Sales scripted movie called The Lady 400 00:29:50.519 --> 00:29:54.319 in Red, and Roger Corman did one in nineteen ninety five. 401 00:29:54.720 --> 00:30:01.799 Dollinger compone. Most recently Michael Mann's publicand Enemies with Johnny 402 00:30:01.799 --> 00:30:04.759 deppis Dillingsher. So you know, there again, there have been 403 00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:10.559 a number of these films out of well advertise themselves 404 00:30:10.640 --> 00:30:16.079 as essentially nonfiction depictions of Dillingsher. But you know what 405 00:30:16.240 --> 00:30:18.839 interests me most, as I was saying in the book, 406 00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:23.079 were films that, uh, you know, comes a surprise to 407 00:30:23.160 --> 00:30:27.880 many people that they were based on real, real criminals. Yeah. 408 00:30:27.920 --> 00:30:33.759 Absolutely, One example of that. One example of that is 409 00:30:33.799 --> 00:30:37.920 The Hills Have Eyes, which is a horror flick from 410 00:30:37.960 --> 00:30:41.960 nineteen seventy seven, directed and written by Wes Craven, and 411 00:30:42.039 --> 00:30:44.680 this is two years after what you call the Texas 412 00:30:44.720 --> 00:30:50.599 Chainsaw Massacre. A masterpiece of horror, masterpiece, The Hills Have Eyes. 413 00:30:51.079 --> 00:30:57.079 This the small group of cannibalistic psychos. 414 00:30:58.799 --> 00:31:00.279 Yeah, how can be. 415 00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:02.759 Possibly related to a true crime? And what true crime 416 00:31:02.920 --> 00:31:04.119 was this related to? 417 00:31:06.519 --> 00:31:14.480 Well, Okay, this is a little tricky because a lot 418 00:31:14.519 --> 00:31:21.640 of questions have been raised about the historical truth of 419 00:31:21.680 --> 00:31:23.599 the crime that it was, of the case that it 420 00:31:23.640 --> 00:31:28.759 was inspired by. People even now are not entirely sure 421 00:31:29.000 --> 00:31:33.720 if it was fact or legend. But Craven was inspired 422 00:31:34.200 --> 00:31:45.200 by tales of a supposedly real historical cannibal clan, that 423 00:31:45.799 --> 00:31:54.200 lived and operated in Scotland. Let's see, trying to get 424 00:31:54.200 --> 00:32:01.160 the exact date. Well, anyway, sometime I believe in the 425 00:32:01.200 --> 00:32:05.720 sixteenth century, maybe the seventeenth century. Anyway, quite a long 426 00:32:05.759 --> 00:32:11.319 time ago. The leader, which was named Sony sanny Bean, 427 00:32:12.400 --> 00:32:19.079 and supposedly this was a you know, a an outlaw 428 00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:26.440 family who resided in the wilds of Scotland, and you know, 429 00:32:26.799 --> 00:32:32.240 were incestuous and cannibalistic and they were oh, I guess 430 00:32:32.240 --> 00:32:35.359 it was. I guess it was towards the latter half 431 00:32:35.400 --> 00:32:39.920 of the sixteenth century. You know. They lived in a 432 00:32:39.960 --> 00:32:44.880 cave and they would prey on unwary travelers whom they 433 00:32:44.920 --> 00:32:53.720 would rob and murder and dismember and consume. And they 434 00:32:53.720 --> 00:32:59.000 were finally finally captured and brought to justice, you know, 435 00:32:59.119 --> 00:33:04.519 by a small army led by the King of Scotland himself. 436 00:33:06.319 --> 00:33:11.599 So that that story has been long reported again going 437 00:33:11.640 --> 00:33:17.480 back to the seventeen hundreds as historically factual. Again, recent 438 00:33:17.640 --> 00:33:22.519 scholarship has raised serious doubts as to whether Sawny Bean 439 00:33:22.599 --> 00:33:26.319 and his cannibal clan really existed. But in any case, 440 00:33:27.240 --> 00:33:33.799 that was the that was the story that inspired the 441 00:33:33.880 --> 00:33:36.000 Hills Have Eyes, which is yeah, I mean a very 442 00:33:36.039 --> 00:33:39.960 grueling horror film about this all American family on a 443 00:33:40.079 --> 00:33:43.960 road trip that takes a shortcut, always a bad idea 444 00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:49.960 in a horror movie. And you know, and their vehicles 445 00:33:50.039 --> 00:33:52.920 break down, their trailer, I guess, breaks down in the desert, 446 00:33:53.599 --> 00:33:58.359 and they become set upon by this very very creepy 447 00:33:58.519 --> 00:34:05.799 feral family of Colt cannibals. So mm hmm, I think uh, 448 00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:11.039 I guess it was remade. Yes, it was definitely remade, Yeah, 449 00:34:11.679 --> 00:34:17.519 by the great yeah what's his name? The uh uh, 450 00:34:17.559 --> 00:34:20.199 the French guy whose name escapes here right now. 451 00:34:20.559 --> 00:34:26.920 But yeah, interesting, let's use this as an opportunity, Harold, 452 00:34:26.960 --> 00:34:29.199 just to top stuff for a second to talk about 453 00:34:29.199 --> 00:34:33.000 our sponsor, which is fab Fit Fun. It's time to 454 00:34:33.039 --> 00:34:36.039 customize your fab Fit Fun box for the summer season. 455 00:34:37.239 --> 00:34:39.880 My wife Lisa was excited, of course, to receive her 456 00:34:39.960 --> 00:34:44.199 fat Fit Summer box and everything she found inside. She 457 00:34:44.639 --> 00:34:49.079 especially like the insulated picnic bag from Business and Pleasure 458 00:34:49.400 --> 00:34:54.119 and the rediffuser from Solstice and from Myriad the environmental 459 00:34:54.159 --> 00:34:58.239 shield energizing cleansing cream. Lisa is always excited to get 460 00:34:58.280 --> 00:35:02.360 her new fat Fit Fun box. 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And then the hills 481 00:36:17.360 --> 00:36:20.400 have eyes have very little I guess connection to that 482 00:36:20.719 --> 00:36:23.559 actual story. But you include a story of which I 483 00:36:23.559 --> 00:36:27.280 found was very very interesting called The Hitchhiker from nineteen 484 00:36:27.400 --> 00:36:31.800 fifty three with a woman named Ida Lapino. And you say, 485 00:36:31.800 --> 00:36:36.239 the only classic film noir directed by a woman, and 486 00:36:36.360 --> 00:36:40.800 this book, this film closely based on a real life 487 00:36:40.920 --> 00:36:45.239 serial killer. But it's interesting the research that she did 488 00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:48.480 into the case herself can tell us a little bit 489 00:36:48.519 --> 00:36:51.880 about how far she went into this actual research for 490 00:36:51.960 --> 00:36:52.639 The Hitchhiker. 491 00:36:55.400 --> 00:37:00.880 Well, by the way, just to clarify an earlier mark 492 00:37:00.880 --> 00:37:07.039 you made, uh, even though the Sony Bean case again 493 00:37:07.159 --> 00:37:10.719 may not be factual, it was still you know, the 494 00:37:10.800 --> 00:37:14.880 direct inspiration. The story itself was the direct inspiration for 495 00:37:14.960 --> 00:37:22.360 the Hills Allies. So the Hitchhiker, uh so idle A Pino, 496 00:37:22.599 --> 00:37:29.239 you know, very very important figure in Hollywood. You know 497 00:37:29.320 --> 00:37:35.599 there in in our own time, there's been a lot 498 00:37:35.679 --> 00:37:43.880 of renewed interest in female uh directors, of which there 499 00:37:43.880 --> 00:37:47.920 were not many uh in Hollywood. Idol Apino, who is 500 00:37:47.960 --> 00:37:55.480 also a very well known actress in her own life. Uh, 501 00:37:55.679 --> 00:37:58.760 you know, is one of the most prominent female directors. 502 00:37:59.119 --> 00:38:07.039 And uh uh So the case that the movie The 503 00:38:07.079 --> 00:38:11.719 Hitchhiker is based on Uh, is a guy named a 504 00:38:11.760 --> 00:38:18.039 young psycho named Billy Cook, who abducted a couple of 505 00:38:18.079 --> 00:38:21.920 guys who are on a you know, on a on 506 00:38:21.960 --> 00:38:26.159 a fishing expedition. Uh. And uh, you know, took him 507 00:38:26.199 --> 00:38:31.400 on this sort of nightmarish, nightmarish odyssey and you know, 508 00:38:31.480 --> 00:38:35.039 committed these various murders along the way, and you know 509 00:38:35.079 --> 00:38:40.800 it's finally captured. Uh. In in in researching her movie, 510 00:38:41.639 --> 00:38:49.280 Lapino actually visited him when he was when he was 511 00:38:49.320 --> 00:38:54.800 in prison. I mean, he was ultimately convicted of kidnap 512 00:38:54.840 --> 00:38:58.920 murders of five members of a single of a single family, 513 00:39:00.599 --> 00:39:06.440 and ultimately he was executed in nineteen fifty two, but 514 00:39:06.599 --> 00:39:12.880 Lapino went so far as to go interview him when 515 00:39:12.880 --> 00:39:18.239 he was in prison to get, you know, in trying 516 00:39:18.280 --> 00:39:25.400 to make her films as authentic as possible. So anyway, 517 00:39:25.519 --> 00:39:30.159 it's a film that I was actually not fully aware 518 00:39:30.199 --> 00:39:35.519 of until I began researching my book. And it's definitely 519 00:39:36.360 --> 00:39:40.079 you know, I definitely recommend it to your viewers. I mean, 520 00:39:40.119 --> 00:39:45.000 the guy who plays the guy who plays the psycho 521 00:39:46.960 --> 00:39:49.519 was actually the actor. I don't know if I know. 522 00:39:49.559 --> 00:39:53.360 There's a new Perry Mason mini series on HBO. I 523 00:39:53.400 --> 00:39:56.440 don't know how many of your listeners recall the great 524 00:39:56.519 --> 00:40:02.480 classic Perry Mason series daring Raymond Burr, by the way, 525 00:40:02.519 --> 00:40:07.159 also played a great psycho in Alfred Hitchcock's a Window. 526 00:40:07.559 --> 00:40:12.360 But the psycho in this movie, the Hitchhiker, is played 527 00:40:13.880 --> 00:40:21.559 by the actor Hamilton Berger, who was Raymond Burr's opponent 528 00:40:21.960 --> 00:40:26.679 with you know, perennially losing opponent in all the Perry 529 00:40:26.679 --> 00:40:29.079 Mason series. So mhm. 530 00:40:34.199 --> 00:40:40.519 Now you talk about m being a classic nineteen thirty 531 00:40:40.559 --> 00:40:45.800 one written by director Fritz Lang, and you as you 532 00:40:45.960 --> 00:40:48.559 write and if you said that it made Peter Lorie 533 00:40:48.679 --> 00:40:55.719 a star, you said it was possible for Fritz Lang 534 00:40:55.800 --> 00:40:59.480 to induce a profound sense of horror in an audience 535 00:40:59.519 --> 00:41:03.760 without showing a single image of explicit violence of gore. 536 00:41:05.119 --> 00:41:07.760 I thought you were talking about Alfred Hitchcock for a second. 537 00:41:07.800 --> 00:41:12.519 But so tell us what a little bit about the 538 00:41:12.559 --> 00:41:17.639 movie and why it is considered classic before we talk 539 00:41:17.679 --> 00:41:20.719 about the crimes and murders that inspired it. 540 00:41:23.400 --> 00:41:28.880 Well, you know, it's it's again justifiably regarded as one 541 00:41:28.920 --> 00:41:33.119 of the great masterpieces of cinema. It's a German movie. 542 00:41:33.800 --> 00:41:38.559 Laurie again became a big star and he was you know, 543 00:41:39.280 --> 00:41:43.920 imported to Hollywood, where obviously he turned in some great 544 00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:50.360 classic performances. But and the movie is about a pedophiliac 545 00:41:50.559 --> 00:41:57.039 serial killer named Beckert, you know, who prays on young 546 00:41:57.199 --> 00:42:07.079 children girls. Uh, and uh, his crimes creates such a 547 00:42:07.159 --> 00:42:12.960 such public outrage. Uh. You know that the police, you know, 548 00:42:13.039 --> 00:42:16.599 begin to stage all these raids on every criminal hangout 549 00:42:16.719 --> 00:42:20.679 and they're basically putting all the criminals in Berlin out 550 00:42:20.719 --> 00:42:25.760 of business. So the criminals themselves decide, you know, they 551 00:42:25.840 --> 00:42:28.880 got to get the police off their backs and find 552 00:42:28.920 --> 00:42:33.960 the sky. So he's Beckett is hunted down and ultimately 553 00:42:34.079 --> 00:42:42.760 captured by all the you know, criminals and put on 554 00:42:42.960 --> 00:42:47.320 a kind of kangaroo trial. Uh, you know, which Laurie 555 00:42:47.559 --> 00:42:51.800 does this amazing turn and which you know, he gives 556 00:42:51.800 --> 00:42:54.719 this very very famous speech, you know, where it says, 557 00:42:54.960 --> 00:42:57.880 you don't know what it's like to be me. I mean, 558 00:42:58.079 --> 00:43:02.559 even though his crimes are unspeakable, he manages to generate, 559 00:43:03.280 --> 00:43:07.320 you know, a certain amount of sympathy because you see 560 00:43:07.320 --> 00:43:11.480 that he's in the grip of this incredible compulsion. But 561 00:43:12.360 --> 00:43:15.400 in the beginning of the film, you know, you see, 562 00:43:15.480 --> 00:43:18.719 you know, this mother who's in her apartment and all 563 00:43:18.760 --> 00:43:21.079 the mothers are waiting for their kids to come home 564 00:43:21.119 --> 00:43:24.119 from school. And you see a little girl on her 565 00:43:24.159 --> 00:43:29.039 way home from school, and this pudgy, creepy looking man, 566 00:43:29.920 --> 00:43:33.199 you know, Peter Laurie, stops her on the street and 567 00:43:33.519 --> 00:43:39.880 buys her a balloon and and you know, takes her 568 00:43:39.880 --> 00:43:43.519 for ice cream, and you know, meanwhile the mother, you know, 569 00:43:43.599 --> 00:43:48.440 that's intercut with the mother becoming increasingly worried and frantic 570 00:43:49.000 --> 00:43:52.519 because her little girl hasn't arrived home yet, you know. 571 00:43:52.559 --> 00:43:56.480 And then there's this there's this cut to you know, 572 00:43:56.599 --> 00:44:04.800 the balloon just you know, being caught in some electric 573 00:44:04.920 --> 00:44:10.119 wires or telephone wires. You know. You see, oh, you 574 00:44:10.159 --> 00:44:14.920 see first you see h you see the little girl, 575 00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:18.079 her name is Elsie. He's bought her a rubber ball, 576 00:44:18.800 --> 00:44:22.159 and you see the ball rolling out of some shrubbery, 577 00:44:23.800 --> 00:44:26.480 you know, and it's clear he's brought her behind the 578 00:44:26.519 --> 00:44:29.719 shrubbery to do something awful to her. And then you 579 00:44:29.800 --> 00:44:33.519 see her balloon tangled up in these up in these 580 00:44:33.559 --> 00:44:41.239 telephone wires, and you know, the whole impact is shattering, 581 00:44:42.199 --> 00:44:45.880 you know, because again you know, often as the greatest 582 00:44:46.079 --> 00:44:50.639 you know, filmmakers often know you know, leaving something to 583 00:44:50.719 --> 00:44:55.440 the viewer's imagination, you know, can cause you know, more 584 00:44:55.480 --> 00:45:00.559 of a more it's going to have a more unsettling effect, 585 00:45:00.719 --> 00:45:04.880 you know, then showing some graphic violins. So yeah, I 586 00:45:04.880 --> 00:45:07.800 mean it's an amazing film. And it was based on 587 00:45:08.119 --> 00:45:13.719 inspired by the crimes of one of the most notorious 588 00:45:13.760 --> 00:45:16.519 what they we call them now serial killers. Back then 589 00:45:16.559 --> 00:45:21.360 they called them, well, they call them lust murderers in 590 00:45:21.440 --> 00:45:26.159 twentieth century history. A gunnamed Peter Curtin, who was an 591 00:45:26.239 --> 00:45:31.280 extreme sadist from youth. Partly he had been schooled in 592 00:45:31.360 --> 00:45:36.440 sadism by this depraved neighbor of his, you know, who 593 00:45:36.519 --> 00:45:40.000 taught him how to derive sexual pleasure from torturing animals 594 00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:46.880 and so on. And he trayed on men, women, children, animals. 595 00:45:47.639 --> 00:45:52.000 You know, he got off, particularly on drinking their blood. 596 00:45:52.920 --> 00:45:57.840 He was known as a vampire of Dusseldorf. He was 597 00:45:57.920 --> 00:46:03.960 actually the one inspiration for America's one of America's most 598 00:46:03.960 --> 00:46:10.000 heinous serial kills, Albert Fish. Albert Fish, you know, cut 599 00:46:10.039 --> 00:46:15.079 out and saved articles about curtain. One of the interesting 600 00:46:15.119 --> 00:46:20.599 things I found in researching the Curtain case was that 601 00:46:20.679 --> 00:46:25.000 the term serial murderer was first used in connection with 602 00:46:25.079 --> 00:46:27.760 the Curtain Case in the nineteen thirties. You know, for 603 00:46:27.800 --> 00:46:32.559 a long time Robert Wrestler of the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit, 604 00:46:33.239 --> 00:46:38.800 claimed credit for coining the phrase serial killer, you know, 605 00:46:38.840 --> 00:46:43.559 and then earlier instances were found in some British publications 606 00:46:43.599 --> 00:46:46.519 going back to the nineteen sixties. But when I was 607 00:46:46.559 --> 00:46:49.480 researching the Curtain Case, I found that the head of 608 00:46:49.559 --> 00:46:54.960 the Berlin Homicide Division used the term Syrian mortar serial 609 00:46:55.039 --> 00:46:59.079 murderer to describe Hurtin. So as far as I know, 610 00:47:00.199 --> 00:47:09.280 that's the earliest use of the terms. 611 00:47:06.239 --> 00:47:09.039 And that's probably in the thirties. As you write, in 612 00:47:09.239 --> 00:47:17.039 this case, very interesting pravity of this vampire of Dusseldorf. 613 00:47:17.239 --> 00:47:23.679 Though you do talk about his childhood. It's not only 614 00:47:23.880 --> 00:47:27.239 the influence of the neighbor, but also the parents' life 615 00:47:27.280 --> 00:47:30.519 and again seeing his parents have sex and thirteen kids 616 00:47:30.559 --> 00:47:35.880 in a one room home, so horrendous upbringing. But they 617 00:47:35.880 --> 00:47:40.760 were able to get information from from Curtin himself, some 618 00:47:40.880 --> 00:47:44.199 kind of insight into the crimes he did, which was 619 00:47:45.880 --> 00:47:48.199 unprecedented at the time, obviously, wasn't it. 620 00:47:48.800 --> 00:47:52.400 Yeah, Yeah, I mean he spoke very very very freely 621 00:47:53.880 --> 00:48:01.920 about you know, about his crimes. He also compared himself 622 00:48:01.960 --> 00:48:05.920 to Jack the Ripper. Just a quote from the book 623 00:48:05.960 --> 00:48:10.480 He's you know, Curtin said, you know, he said, the 624 00:48:10.559 --> 00:48:13.320 main thing for me was to see blood. You know, 625 00:48:13.360 --> 00:48:15.519 when he would slick the throats of some of his 626 00:48:15.599 --> 00:48:19.000 young victims, he said, the sound of blood when I 627 00:48:19.039 --> 00:48:23.079 cut her throat made me ejaculate. They stabbed her throat 628 00:48:23.239 --> 00:48:28.280 and drank the blood that cushed out. So yeah, you know, 629 00:48:28.360 --> 00:48:34.159 he even at one point, such was his incredibly depraved 630 00:48:34.199 --> 00:48:38.760 appetite that one time he was strolling through a duseledolf 631 00:48:38.920 --> 00:48:45.199 park and came upon a sleeping swan and cut off 632 00:48:45.239 --> 00:48:50.760 its head, and a drack ejaculated while drinking the blood 633 00:48:50.840 --> 00:48:54.320 as it pumped from the swan's neck stump. 634 00:48:56.280 --> 00:49:06.400 Yeah, incredible. You write about a movie that was Monsieur 635 00:49:06.519 --> 00:49:10.880 Verdeaux in nineteen forty seven, directed and written by Charlie Chaplin. 636 00:49:10.920 --> 00:49:18.519 Surprisingly boot story of blue Beard, and this was inspired 637 00:49:18.519 --> 00:49:22.519 by just a Mother Goose tales from Charles Perraut. Tell 638 00:49:22.599 --> 00:49:25.960 us what tell us a little bit about the inspiration 639 00:49:26.039 --> 00:49:28.679 for this, Henry Landrew, Well, the. 640 00:49:29.960 --> 00:49:36.559 Perout connection is that's a classic fairy tale blue Beard, 641 00:49:37.280 --> 00:49:40.400 which is about a young woman who is kind of 642 00:49:40.559 --> 00:49:47.880 forced into marrying this creepy aristocrat who has a blue beard, 643 00:49:49.320 --> 00:49:56.320 is taken to his castle and excuse me. Soon afterwards, 644 00:49:56.320 --> 00:50:00.280 he goes on a trip and gives her the keys. Says, 645 00:50:00.320 --> 00:50:03.039 she has free run of the castle, and these are 646 00:50:03.079 --> 00:50:05.599 the keys to every room, but there's one room you're 647 00:50:05.639 --> 00:50:11.559 not allowed to go into. And of course, when he's gone, 648 00:50:12.119 --> 00:50:15.599 her curiosity gets the best of her. She enters the 649 00:50:15.679 --> 00:50:23.559 room discovers, to her horror that's full of the dismembered 650 00:50:23.559 --> 00:50:28.239 body parts of all his previous lives. It's a very, 651 00:50:28.320 --> 00:50:31.800 very gruesome fairy tale. I mean, there are other fairy 652 00:50:31.840 --> 00:50:36.599 tales and folks stories of that type around the world. 653 00:50:37.280 --> 00:50:42.920 Folklorus collum bloody chamber stories are forbidden chamber stories. Anyway, 654 00:50:43.039 --> 00:50:47.840 in Western culture, blue Beard is the most famous, and 655 00:50:48.199 --> 00:50:52.760 the term blue beard has come to be applied to 656 00:50:53.239 --> 00:50:56.719 a certain kind of serial killer, men who marry a 657 00:50:56.760 --> 00:51:03.840 succession of wives and then and then murdered them. I'm 658 00:51:03.880 --> 00:51:07.639 actually in the process of researching the case of a 659 00:51:07.800 --> 00:51:14.719 very infamous American bluebeard named Johann haw So. In France, 660 00:51:15.519 --> 00:51:22.320 on rie Land Drew was probably their most famous bluebeard killer. 661 00:51:22.360 --> 00:51:28.079 He was actually quite a bizarre looking guy who operated 662 00:51:29.159 --> 00:51:34.599 after in the aftermath of the World War One, you know, 663 00:51:34.599 --> 00:51:37.480 in which the male young male population of Western Europe 664 00:51:37.519 --> 00:51:45.159 was totally decimated, you know, leaving countless widows. And land 665 00:51:45.239 --> 00:51:51.639 Drew again, who, in spite of his bizarre appearance, you know, 666 00:51:51.719 --> 00:51:55.880 obviously exerted some kind of charm you know, married a 667 00:51:55.960 --> 00:52:00.159 series of women and ended up, you know, murdering a 668 00:52:00.199 --> 00:52:06.639 bunch of them for their property. So that case, which 669 00:52:06.679 --> 00:52:13.519 got a great deal of international coverage, fascinated actually fascinated 670 00:52:13.599 --> 00:52:20.000 both Charlie Chaplin and Orson Wells, and uh, you know, 671 00:52:20.079 --> 00:52:22.679 the original plan was to make a kind of non 672 00:52:22.719 --> 00:52:28.400 fiction movie very directly based on Landrew. But anyway, what 673 00:52:28.400 --> 00:52:37.719 what we ended up with was uh Chaplain's comedy, well yeah, 674 00:52:37.880 --> 00:52:45.960 comedy in which again Chaplain plays you know, this very 675 00:52:46.039 --> 00:52:53.960 very charming uh uh gentlemen who seduces and then murders 676 00:52:55.400 --> 00:52:58.320 a bunch of women and ends you know with the 677 00:52:58.360 --> 00:53:05.880 courtroom uh scene in which he you know, he makes 678 00:53:06.199 --> 00:53:12.960 an impassioned speech in his own defense, in which he 679 00:53:13.039 --> 00:53:17.320 sort of justifies his crimes, you know, as being much 680 00:53:17.400 --> 00:53:23.800 less heinous than what, you know, than than the world 681 00:53:23.920 --> 00:53:26.079 than you know, what the world who's just lived through. 682 00:53:27.280 --> 00:53:31.639 I'm in terms of the incredible, you know, incredible destruction 683 00:53:31.760 --> 00:53:34.400 and devastation of World War One. You know, he says 684 00:53:34.400 --> 00:53:37.559 this is a mass killer. I'm an amateur by comparison, 685 00:53:38.480 --> 00:53:42.599 you know, to what to what civilization has done to itself. 686 00:53:42.719 --> 00:53:47.199 So right. 687 00:53:48.000 --> 00:53:52.280 Now you talk about murder on the Orient Express, and 688 00:53:52.519 --> 00:53:56.639 this has been filmed three times, I believe, and it's notable, 689 00:53:57.000 --> 00:54:00.719 not because of its accuracy and connection to an actual 690 00:54:00.800 --> 00:54:04.400 crime and those details, but just that this has been 691 00:54:04.599 --> 00:54:09.639 filmed more times. Agatha Christie adaptation filmed the most times. 692 00:54:10.480 --> 00:54:15.920 What I found interesting was something far less known. Is 693 00:54:16.000 --> 00:54:18.519 Knight of the Hunter in nineteen fifty five with Shelley 694 00:54:18.559 --> 00:54:22.039 Winter's Robert Mitcham. And you say, it's one of the 695 00:54:22.039 --> 00:54:26.480 most notorious mass murders in world history, yet is barely 696 00:54:26.519 --> 00:54:33.119 remembered today. Again another Lonely Hearts type case. Tell us 697 00:54:33.159 --> 00:54:35.559 a little bit about this Night of the Hunter in 698 00:54:35.559 --> 00:54:39.679 its relation to relation to the true crime that inspired it. 699 00:54:40.920 --> 00:54:44.039 Okay, well, just to go back for one minute. The 700 00:54:44.119 --> 00:54:50.480 reason I cover Murder on the Orange Express it isn't 701 00:54:50.519 --> 00:54:57.159 because you know the actual plot of the Agatha Christie. 702 00:54:57.920 --> 00:55:00.599 You know, famous murder mystery, you know, in which a 703 00:55:00.719 --> 00:55:03.760 murder has been committed on a train, and you know, 704 00:55:04.599 --> 00:55:13.159 the great Belgium detective ir Q Poirot solves the crime. 705 00:55:13.320 --> 00:55:17.320 You know, he knows obviously one of the you know, 706 00:55:17.400 --> 00:55:22.320 one of the passengers must have committed it. But the 707 00:55:22.639 --> 00:55:27.079 connection to real life crime is that the murder victim, 708 00:55:28.400 --> 00:55:34.320 the backstory of the murder victim was inspired by the 709 00:55:34.519 --> 00:55:41.960 very very sensational kidnapping murder of the Charles Lindbergh Son 710 00:55:42.719 --> 00:55:45.920 in the nineteen thirties, you know, which many people even 711 00:55:45.960 --> 00:55:50.280 now regard as the crime of a twentieth century. So 712 00:55:50.400 --> 00:55:55.079 that's the connection there. Well, The Knight of the Hunter again, 713 00:55:55.280 --> 00:56:00.960 great masterpiece, directed the only movie directed by the famous 714 00:56:00.960 --> 00:56:06.679 actor Charles Lawton, with a screenplay written by the Pulitzer 715 00:56:06.719 --> 00:56:11.559 Prize winning author James Age, who also wrote the screenplay 716 00:56:11.679 --> 00:56:20.639 for African Queen, the Great John Houston movie with Humphrey 717 00:56:20.639 --> 00:56:24.320 Bogar and Kevin Hepburn. So you know, it's about this 718 00:56:25.599 --> 00:56:35.159 really scary self proclaimed minister played by Robert Mitchum who 719 00:56:35.320 --> 00:56:41.800 has gone around murdering different women, as we learned in 720 00:56:41.840 --> 00:56:46.039 the beginning of the film, and then who sets his 721 00:56:46.199 --> 00:56:52.000 sights on the widow of a recently executed prisoner who 722 00:56:52.519 --> 00:56:57.239 he knows. Prisoner who he shared a cell with, stole 723 00:56:57.280 --> 00:57:01.480 a bunch of money which has never been covered. And 724 00:57:02.199 --> 00:57:05.360 the Mitcham character knows this money is somehow with the family, 725 00:57:06.280 --> 00:57:12.880 so he tracks down the family, marries the widow, Shelley Winters, 726 00:57:13.199 --> 00:57:17.199 you know, murders her. Anyway, It's a very stylized, poetic 727 00:57:17.880 --> 00:57:22.400 and terrifying movie. And again it was based on a 728 00:57:22.480 --> 00:57:31.280 novel and the direct inspiration for the novel. He was not, 729 00:57:32.360 --> 00:57:37.079 by any stretch of the imagination, you know, one of 730 00:57:37.119 --> 00:57:40.239 the most monstrous mass murderers, but that's how he was 731 00:57:41.079 --> 00:57:46.400 advertised in the tabloids of the time. But nevertheless, he 732 00:57:46.559 --> 00:57:52.000 was a a guy named Mary Powers, a vacuum cleaner 733 00:57:52.039 --> 00:57:56.239 salesman from West Virginia who would well he was. He 734 00:57:56.320 --> 00:57:59.760 was also a kind of blue beard killer, although he 735 00:57:59.800 --> 00:58:02.559 never actually married as victims, you know, but he would 736 00:58:02.639 --> 00:58:06.119 put these uh. He would he would answer ads or 737 00:58:06.119 --> 00:58:10.239 place ads to some of these lonely hearts magazines and 738 00:58:10.280 --> 00:58:15.800 then lure widows uh to what was really a torture chamber. 739 00:58:16.760 --> 00:58:16.880 Uh. 740 00:58:17.039 --> 00:58:20.559 He had built inside a garage in a town called 741 00:58:20.639 --> 00:58:26.239 Quiet dell and uh and and again he was ultimately 742 00:58:27.000 --> 00:58:30.320 you know, ultimately he killed uh, he murdered a number 743 00:58:30.320 --> 00:58:34.719 of women, He murdered some of their children, ultimately captured 744 00:58:34.719 --> 00:58:39.199 and hanged and uh and again it was a you know, 745 00:58:39.239 --> 00:58:43.679 it was an extremely sensational case locally and even nationally. 746 00:58:44.639 --> 00:58:50.320 There were ballads and songs created about it. So that became, 747 00:58:50.559 --> 00:58:55.559 as I said, the the inspiration for the novel Night 748 00:58:55.599 --> 00:58:59.320 of a Hunter, which then got transformed into this classic. 749 00:59:00.519 --> 00:59:03.280 Sell them another movie that I your viewer, if your 750 00:59:03.320 --> 00:59:05.599 listeners haven't seen it, I very highly recommend. 751 00:59:06.960 --> 00:59:07.400 Mm hmm. 752 00:59:08.360 --> 00:59:12.760 It's interesting you write in real life, thirty thousand curiosity 753 00:59:12.800 --> 00:59:17.639 seekers overran the murder farm and took everything, everything they could, 754 00:59:18.039 --> 00:59:21.199 anything they could get. You write about in this book 755 00:59:22.119 --> 00:59:25.079 some of this morbid curiosity in these huge in these 756 00:59:25.159 --> 00:59:28.719 huge groups and huge groups of people that want to 757 00:59:28.760 --> 00:59:30.960 see and have a souvenir to take home. 758 00:59:32.719 --> 00:59:35.480 Yeah, well that's you know, that happens wherever there's a 759 00:59:35.599 --> 00:59:39.760 so social crime. The book I wrote before this hels 760 00:59:39.760 --> 00:59:47.880 the Princess right about the lady Bluebeard Belgunnis have reported Deiana. Yeah, also, 761 00:59:48.280 --> 00:59:52.280 tens of thousands of people showed up at her murder 762 00:59:52.320 --> 00:59:57.280 farm after her crimes were discovered, and you know, there 763 00:59:57.280 --> 01:00:02.719 were again people selling ice cream and peddling postcards and 764 01:00:02.800 --> 01:00:08.199 the victims' bodies. Yeah, I mean you find that kind 765 01:00:08.239 --> 01:00:12.480 of phenomenon almost every I mean, I'm sure it's one 766 01:00:12.480 --> 01:00:18.039 of the reasons. For example, that ed Geanes Towns people 767 01:00:18.599 --> 01:00:26.079 burned down his house after his atrocities were discovered, you know, 768 01:00:26.119 --> 01:00:30.559 because they knew it's just going to be a tourist attraction. Yeah. 769 01:00:30.599 --> 01:00:35.079 I mean virtually every crime that I've written about you 770 01:00:35.159 --> 01:00:38.400 have the same phenomenon. I was just writing about a 771 01:00:38.519 --> 01:00:42.880 mass murder that happened in Philadelphia in eighteen sixty six, 772 01:00:44.360 --> 01:00:48.719 and after that crime was discovered, same thing. You know, 773 01:00:48.760 --> 01:00:52.480 on a Sunday, thousands of people, you know, they're running excursion. 774 01:00:53.400 --> 01:00:57.320 It was the very outskirts of the city, so they're 775 01:00:57.400 --> 01:01:02.199 running special excursion trains out there, and you know, people basically, 776 01:01:02.360 --> 01:01:06.199 you know, if they hadn't been stopped by the police, 777 01:01:06.239 --> 01:01:10.920 they would have basically taken taken the place apart. You know, 778 01:01:11.000 --> 01:01:15.079 people were just taking pieces of wood from the barn 779 01:01:15.159 --> 01:01:18.119 where their bodies were found and what kinds of stuff. 780 01:01:18.159 --> 01:01:23.400 So it's also fascinating you talk about a month after 781 01:01:23.400 --> 01:01:28.480 the arrest, the lynch mob surrounded the jailhouse and these lawmen, 782 01:01:28.599 --> 01:01:32.440 heavily armed Lahman had to protect him and would take 783 01:01:32.480 --> 01:01:36.800 him to another prison hundreds of miles away. The thousands 784 01:01:36.840 --> 01:01:40.679 of people storming this And there's a couple of stories 785 01:01:40.719 --> 01:01:42.760 in this book at the same thing where a lynch 786 01:01:42.840 --> 01:01:47.000 mob overcomes. Yeah, you know, in this case the police 787 01:01:47.119 --> 01:01:49.440 the Lahman protected them, but in the other case they 788 01:01:49.440 --> 01:01:54.039 were successful. So fascinating response by the public in these 789 01:01:54.079 --> 01:01:59.719 stories to these what was by the media made a 790 01:01:59.760 --> 01:02:05.079 lot of headway with publication and readership with some of 791 01:02:05.119 --> 01:02:08.159 these cases that fascinated the public certainly. 792 01:02:08.760 --> 01:02:14.079 Yeah, well yeah, I mean, you know, as I'm sure 793 01:02:14.320 --> 01:02:21.079 you know, lynch mobs have been an unfortunate feature of 794 01:02:21.559 --> 01:02:26.599 our society, you know, going back a long time. You know, 795 01:02:26.679 --> 01:02:28.480 there have been many cases. I mean, you see, like 796 01:02:28.519 --> 01:02:31.360 in Western movies all the time, it's a reflection of 797 01:02:32.480 --> 01:02:36.960 historical truth, you know, lynch mobs. You know, sheriffs trying 798 01:02:36.960 --> 01:02:39.639 to hold off lynch mobs. We're trying to break into 799 01:02:39.679 --> 01:02:44.199 the jail, and you know, sometimes lynch mobs succeeded. I mean, 800 01:02:44.280 --> 01:02:50.639 one of the movies that I talk about called Fury. 801 01:02:51.960 --> 01:02:56.119 Another Fritz Lang movie, you know, is based on a 802 01:02:56.199 --> 01:03:05.320 case in which these two kidnapped murderers, you know, we're 803 01:03:05.559 --> 01:03:09.199 caught in jailed and you know lynch mob. This is 804 01:03:09.199 --> 01:03:13.599 out in California. Lynch mob broke in and you know 805 01:03:13.639 --> 01:03:18.920 and lynch them. So so yeah, it's not a not 806 01:03:19.079 --> 01:03:24.440 an unusual phenomenon, you know, not to mention all the 807 01:03:25.000 --> 01:03:29.880 horrific lynchings that were perpetrated against African Americans. 808 01:03:30.199 --> 01:03:35.320 Mm hm, we have only touched on a few of again, 809 01:03:35.360 --> 01:03:39.840 the forty cases that you have examined in this and 810 01:03:39.840 --> 01:03:42.119 and all the movies that were inspired by true crimes, 811 01:03:42.719 --> 01:03:45.840 including a Rope. Before I let you go, can we 812 01:03:45.920 --> 01:03:49.800 talk about Rope by Alfred Hitchcock, starring James Stewart and 813 01:03:49.880 --> 01:03:54.599 Hume Crohne, the partners in partners in murder and like 814 01:03:54.639 --> 01:03:57.760 you say, gay lovers was they were gay lovers implied? 815 01:03:58.800 --> 01:04:02.639 But tell us about this these I guess first example 816 01:04:02.679 --> 01:04:05.400 of what we might call thrill killers. 817 01:04:05.920 --> 01:04:12.440 Well, Rope. There have been several movies inspired by this case. 818 01:04:14.119 --> 01:04:18.000 The one that sticks closest to the fact he's Richard Brooks, 819 01:04:18.000 --> 01:04:25.079 Who's compulsion, But they were all inspired, including Rope, by 820 01:04:25.960 --> 01:04:31.880 the very very famous nineteen twenties case of Leopold and Loebe, 821 01:04:32.840 --> 01:04:42.800 who are these brilliant, very wealthy college age guys lived 822 01:04:42.840 --> 01:04:46.079 in Chicago. You know, this is one of the great 823 01:04:46.679 --> 01:04:51.960 again crimes of the century, of the twentieth century. They 824 01:04:52.000 --> 01:04:57.400 fancied themselves Nietzschean superman, uh, and to prove it to 825 01:04:57.480 --> 01:05:01.280 themselves in the world, they were going to commit the 826 01:05:01.320 --> 01:05:05.400 perfect crime. So they picked a victim, went out far. 827 01:05:05.480 --> 01:05:07.880 They picked a victim at random, turned out to be 828 01:05:07.920 --> 01:05:10.320 a fourteen year old named Bobby Franks, who was actually 829 01:05:10.320 --> 01:05:13.119 a cousin I can't remember which one I think of, 830 01:05:13.199 --> 01:05:19.239 Dicky Loeb, and murdered him and buried his naked body 831 01:05:19.239 --> 01:05:23.320 in a culvert outside the city, sent ransom notes to 832 01:05:23.360 --> 01:05:28.480 the family. In spite of their belief that they had 833 01:05:28.480 --> 01:05:33.280 committed the perfect crime. They were captured within days, and 834 01:05:33.360 --> 01:05:35.880 you know, they were sort of it struck. There's a 835 01:05:35.960 --> 01:05:40.280 very very powerful chord in the nation at that time, 836 01:05:40.440 --> 01:05:49.440 partly because they were seen as the nightmarish incarnations of 837 01:05:50.440 --> 01:05:54.000 what the culture at the time called the flaming youth. 838 01:05:54.679 --> 01:05:58.360 You know, this ad of control while jazz age kids 839 01:05:58.800 --> 01:06:05.480 who just lived for three uh, and they were they 840 01:06:05.519 --> 01:06:08.760 pled guilty, so they weren't tried, but they had a 841 01:06:08.840 --> 01:06:16.400 long sentencing proceeding and they were represented by the great defender, 842 01:06:16.559 --> 01:06:22.960 Clarence Darrow. So their trial, we'll call it, you know again, 843 01:06:23.360 --> 01:06:30.880 was covered nationally and internationally. So yeah, I mean, Leopold 844 01:06:30.880 --> 01:06:34.079 and Lobe had become you know, kind of entered into 845 01:06:34.239 --> 01:06:37.679 the annals of American crime as these you know, kind 846 01:06:37.719 --> 01:06:43.559 of quasi mythical characters like Lizzie Borden, and their story 847 01:06:43.599 --> 01:06:47.920 has been you know, told various times. Alfred Hitchcock's Rope, 848 01:06:47.960 --> 01:06:51.199 which is based on a Broadway play which is based 849 01:06:51.199 --> 01:06:54.639 on Leopold and Loeb, is a very interesting film. It's 850 01:06:54.760 --> 01:07:00.119 kind of a an experimental film which Hitchcock shot so 851 01:07:00.280 --> 01:07:03.360 that it looks as though it was all done in 852 01:07:03.440 --> 01:07:07.400 a single take, you know, kind of like the recent 853 01:07:07.440 --> 01:07:11.119 movie nineteen seventeen, although this one basically just takes place, 854 01:07:11.320 --> 01:07:15.639 you know, inside a single apartment, so you know, it's 855 01:07:15.760 --> 01:07:19.559 very very interesting for that reason. And its stars again 856 01:07:19.639 --> 01:07:25.199 one of you know, Hitchcock's favorite actors, Jimmy Stewart, as 857 01:07:25.320 --> 01:07:28.920 the mentor to the two young thriller killers. 858 01:07:30.440 --> 01:07:34.559 Yes, absolutely, we didn't get a chance to talk about 859 01:07:34.880 --> 01:07:38.800 Shadow of a Doubt, Scream, A Place in the Sun, 860 01:07:39.440 --> 01:07:45.159 looking for Mister Goodbar, The Fugitive, Double Indemnity, a classic 861 01:07:45.559 --> 01:07:50.199 called Elephant by Gus Van Sant, and Chicago, among some others. 862 01:07:50.360 --> 01:07:54.400 But that's for the reader to explore. I want to 863 01:07:54.400 --> 01:07:57.400 thank you very much for talking about rip from the headlines, 864 01:07:57.440 --> 01:08:00.679 the shocking two stories behind the movies most memory crimes. 865 01:08:01.239 --> 01:08:03.519 For people that might want to find out more, is 866 01:08:03.559 --> 01:08:06.440 there a website or obviously a Facebook page that they 867 01:08:06.519 --> 01:08:09.119 might take a look at more information? 868 01:08:09.840 --> 01:08:15.519 Well, I do have a Facebook page and a website. 869 01:08:16.840 --> 01:08:22.760 Harold Scheckter dot com is a website, tell you the truth. 870 01:08:23.319 --> 01:08:27.520 I'm not a Facebook person, and I do have a 871 01:08:27.560 --> 01:08:33.840 Facebook page which is overseen and created by a friend 872 01:08:33.920 --> 01:08:37.960 of mine. But it's there so people know how to 873 01:08:38.039 --> 01:08:40.840 use Facebook. They can go on that. But Harold Scheckter 874 01:08:40.920 --> 01:08:44.840 dot com and you know the book, you know, well, now, 875 01:08:44.880 --> 01:08:48.640 with so many stores closed, you know, probably the best 876 01:08:48.680 --> 01:08:52.319 place for interested buyers to get the book, either in 877 01:08:53.439 --> 01:08:59.399 it's a physical form or kindle form is Amazon? Yes? 878 01:08:59.479 --> 01:09:03.079 Absolutely, is there. Did I see an audiobook version of 879 01:09:03.119 --> 01:09:03.640 this as well? 880 01:09:03.840 --> 01:09:06.840 Already? Yes, there's also a very nice audio version. 881 01:09:08.000 --> 01:09:12.199 Great fantastic. Well, it's been a pleasure as once again 882 01:09:12.279 --> 01:09:16.359 Harold ripped from the headlines the shocking true stories behind 883 01:09:16.359 --> 01:09:21.000 the movies most memorable crimes. Fantastic. Congratulations on the book 884 01:09:21.079 --> 01:09:22.760 and thank you so much for this interview. 885 01:09:23.640 --> 01:09:25.680 Well, thank you, greating. 886 01:09:26.079 --> 01:09:28.319 You too, Oh, thank you. Good night.