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Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 5: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every
Speaker 5: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 5: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 5: journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 6: Good Evening, best selling true crime master Harold Scheckter explores
Speaker 6: the real life headline making psychos, serial murders, thrill hungry couples,
Speaker 6: and lady killers who inspired a century of classic films.
Speaker 6: The necktie murders in Alfred Hitchcock's Frenzy Chicago jazz age,
Speaker 6: Crime of Passion, the fatal hookup in Looking for Mister Goodbar,
Speaker 6: the high school horrors committed by the costume slasher and scream.
Speaker 6: These and other cinematic crimes have become part of pop
Speaker 6: culture history, and each found inspiration and true events that
Speaker 6: provided the raw material for our greatest blockbusters, indie art films,
Speaker 6: black comedies, Hollywood classics, and grindhouse horrors. So what's the
Speaker 6: reality behind Psycho bad Lands? The Hills have eyes a
Speaker 6: place in the Sun, Arsenic and Old Lace and Dirty Harry.
Speaker 6: How did such tabloid ready killers as Bonnie and Clyde,
Speaker 6: body snatchers, Burke and Hare, Texas sniper Charles Whitman, junior
Speaker 6: nurse slayer, Richard Speck, and Leopold and Loeb exert their
Speaker 6: power on the public imagination and become the stuff of
Speaker 6: movie lore. In this collection of revelatory essays, true crime
Speaker 6: historian Harold Scheckter takes a fascinating trip down the crossroads
Speaker 6: in fact and fiction to reveal the sensational, real life
Speaker 6: stories that are more shocking, taboo, and fantastic than even
Speaker 6: the most imaginative screenwriter can dream up. The book that
Speaker 6: we're featuring this evening is Ripped from the headlines, the
Speaker 6: shocking true stories behind the movie's most memorable crimes, with
Speaker 6: my special guest, journalist and author and historian Harold Scheckter.
Speaker 6: Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much
Speaker 6: for this interview.
Speaker 2: Harold Scheckter, Well, thank you for having leon. Always a
Speaker 2: pleasure to talk to you.
Speaker 6: It's always a great pleasure to speak with you again.
Speaker 6: Congratulations on this book, incredible rip from the headlines. Let's
Speaker 6: start off with.
Speaker 2: Yeah, very proud of it. Hard book to write in
Speaker 2: many ways, you know, required double amount of research in
Speaker 2: a way that I usually do. Yes, had a research
Speaker 2: both the movies and the crimes based on it. I mean.
Speaker 2: The premise of the book is that nowadays, or at
Speaker 2: least up until relatively recently, when you could go to
Speaker 2: a movie, you would go to a movie and very
Speaker 2: commonly see a title card at the beginning announcing that
Speaker 2: it was based on true events or based on a
Speaker 2: true story. That didn't happen so much in the old days.
Speaker 2: In fact, it was more common for there to be
Speaker 2: a disclaimer at the end of the movie saying that
Speaker 2: any resemblance to real people or real events was purely coincidental.
Speaker 2: But in fact, during Hollywood's Golden Age and before and after,
Speaker 2: screenwriters often turned to the newspapers and sensational crimes as
Speaker 2: the inspiration for their screenplays. And there are a lot
Speaker 2: of movies ranging from classic films like Anatomy of the
Speaker 2: Murder and Arsenic and o' Lace to cult films like
Speaker 2: Toby her Hooper's Eating Alive and The Hills Have and
Speaker 2: West Cravens The Hills Have Eyes, which you know viewers
Speaker 2: often don't realize were based on true events. So yeah,
Speaker 2: so that's what my book does. My book contains looks
Speaker 2: at forty movies and then recounts the actual crimes that
Speaker 2: inspired them.
Speaker 6: Right now, one of the kN before we talk about
Speaker 6: some of the these famous movies and from often books
Speaker 6: that were bestsellers and then were adapted into movies. And
Speaker 6: a lot of these movies, the source, the real life
Speaker 6: criminal source crime source spawns more than one movie. So
Speaker 6: just briefly tell us a couple of the directors that
Speaker 6: you were especially covering in this book just because of
Speaker 6: some of the numbers of movies that they made concerning
Speaker 6: or at least were inspired by real crimes, but also
Speaker 6: that you thought were had done some very memorable movies
Speaker 6: regarding these true life crimes.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, Hitchcock appears I think three three times,
Speaker 2: let's say maybe four times in the book Psycho of course,
Speaker 2: and maybe we can talk a little bit about how
Speaker 2: I first got into the subject, which was through Psycho,
Speaker 2: then Rope, then Frenzy and then Shadow of a Doubt.
Speaker 2: All all four of those films were inspired by true cases.
Speaker 2: Other well, Fritz Lang has a couple of movies in there.
Speaker 2: One Am the great classic m which made Peter Laurie
Speaker 2: into an international movie star, and a movie called Fury. Actually,
Speaker 2: I think Fritz Lang has three movies. There's also Uh,
Speaker 2: You Only Live Once, which was a Frince Fritz Lang
Speaker 2: production might even be a fourth Mutcher or third. But
Speaker 2: you know, there are a lot of great directors in
Speaker 2: their auto premeger For example, the director of Anatomy of
Speaker 2: a Murder, George Stevens, the great American director who directed
Speaker 2: one of my all time favorite movies, The Western Shane
Speaker 2: is in there with a Place in the Sun. So again,
Speaker 2: you know, rangers from classic movies directed by great ou
Speaker 2: teur directors to some less great movies, although you know
Speaker 2: the ones that I cover that are you know more
Speaker 2: well more less highly regarded, possibly by serious high brassitias.
Speaker 2: You know, there are still directed by excellent directors. I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, Wes Craven has two movies in there, The
Speaker 2: Hills Have Eyes and Scream. Toby Hooper. Yeah, I'm not
Speaker 2: sure what happened to Toby Hooper. You know, the Texas
Speaker 2: Chains of Massacre. I regard, as many people do, as
Speaker 2: this great masterpiece of horror and then his follow up
Speaker 2: and pretty much all his subsequent movies were kind of
Speaker 2: disappointing and so anyway, but so yeah, so there's a
Speaker 2: range of directors in there.
Speaker 6: So as you alluded to tell us about Psycho and
Speaker 6: how this project, the genesis of this project, and its
Speaker 6: relation to Psycho in that story and movie, well.
Speaker 2: I mean it was through Psycho and Texas Transa Massacre
Speaker 2: that I first got into the whole true crime game.
Speaker 2: I up until that time had been writing books about
Speaker 2: whatever subject caught my interest at the time, and I
Speaker 2: was writing a book called Film Tricks It's going back
Speaker 2: to the late nineteen eighties, which was a history of
Speaker 2: cinematic special effects, going back to George Melier. This was
Speaker 2: before the whole CGI revolution, And when I was working
Speaker 2: on the chapter on horror effects, I came across what
Speaker 2: was then the relat actively little known fact. It was
Speaker 2: unknown to me that both Psycho and Texas Chang Saw Massacre,
Speaker 2: which I regarded and probably still regard as the two
Speaker 2: greatest horror movies ever made, had both been inspired by
Speaker 2: a real life case out of ed Geen, the midwestern
Speaker 2: Wisconsin necrofile. And you know that was very fascinating to me.
Speaker 2: So I began to research that case, and that became
Speaker 2: the first of my true crime books, Deviant. And at
Speaker 2: that time when I published ev And Signs of Lambs
Speaker 2: hadn't yet come out, And of course Signs of Lambs
Speaker 2: also threw on the game case and the figure of
Speaker 2: Buffalo Bill, So in a way, you know, that was
Speaker 2: my first awareness of this. I was also until my
Speaker 2: recent retirement after forty two years, I was, as I
Speaker 2: think you may not, a teacher of America, a professor
Speaker 2: of American literature at Queen's College, and I was aware
Speaker 2: that certain classics of American literature, very notably, for example,
Speaker 2: theodorege Reisers of American Tragedy have been based on real crimes. So, uh,
Speaker 2: you know that fed into this too, especially since the
Speaker 2: Dreiser movie then became made into that great, the great
Speaker 2: George Stevens movie Placed in the Sun, So all those things,
Speaker 2: you know, the the topic of how real crimes get
Speaker 2: transformed into different forms of literature and popular entertainment. Uh,
Speaker 2: you know, it's been with me for a while.
Speaker 6: Right, Let's give the audience an example of this, the
Speaker 6: movie and then the inspiration with anatomy of a Murder
Speaker 6: by director Otto Premager James Stewart starring Lee rem Ben Gazera.
Speaker 6: Tell us a little bit about this lawyer, John D. Vulker,
Speaker 6: because this is the pivotal person in this entire story,
Speaker 6: both the end real life.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, Vulker had been a lawyer in the Michigan's
Speaker 2: Upper Peninsula. Uh and uh, you know, he had been
Speaker 2: writing some books and then got the inspiration to write
Speaker 2: a fictionalized version of of what was locally a very
Speaker 2: notorious murder case where he had been the defense attorney. Ah.
Speaker 2: And the book Anatomy of a Murder became a big
Speaker 2: best seller and then was transformed into this very powerful
Speaker 2: and in many ways for the time kind of radical movie
Speaker 2: because challenged a lot of the censorship restrictions of what
Speaker 2: was called the Hayes Code at that time. Actually, it's
Speaker 2: an interesting example of what I kind of alluded to earlier,
Speaker 2: because Volker claimed that his novel was a work of
Speaker 2: pure fiction, right, but it followed the details of the
Speaker 2: true life case so closely. And when the movie came out,
Speaker 2: both he and Auto Premager got sued by the widow
Speaker 2: of the victim and the case for the way the
Speaker 2: movie portrayed the character who is based on her husband,
Speaker 2: but essentially both the film and the real life case
Speaker 2: had to do with a tavern keeper who was well.
Speaker 2: It had to do with an army lieutenant who shoots
Speaker 2: and kills a tavern keeper because the husband believes, or
Speaker 2: has been told by his wife that she was raped
Speaker 2: by the tavern keeper, that the tavern keeper had offered
Speaker 2: her a ride home. She had been in the tavern
Speaker 2: by herself, he'd offered her a ride home, and he
Speaker 2: had brutally raped her, and the husband after making her
Speaker 2: This is again both in real life and in the book.
Speaker 2: In the film, which followed the case very closely, the husband,
Speaker 2: after making her swear in a bible if that's what happened,
Speaker 2: took his service. Revolver went to the bar and just
Speaker 2: shut this tavern keeper down, and he believed that he
Speaker 2: would be exonerated based on what is commonly called the
Speaker 2: unwritten law, which was supposedly a man a husband is
Speaker 2: entitled to shoot the man who is his wife. He
Speaker 2: was promptly informed that there was actually no such thing
Speaker 2: legally as an unwritten law, and it became again a
Speaker 2: very very sensational murder trial which Volker got the lieutenant
Speaker 2: acquitted on the basis of what was called irresistible impulse.
Speaker 2: And that's what you know, that's what happens in the movies.
Speaker 2: I mean the movie you know, ads at the end
Speaker 2: a very surprised kind of Perry Mason like sudden revelation.
Speaker 2: But anyway, it's terrific movie, as you say, starring Jimmy
Speaker 2: Stewart as the as the defense attorney, and was the
Speaker 2: debut film of both Ben Gazzara as the husband and
Speaker 2: George C. Scott who plays the rather oily prosecuting attorney
Speaker 2: who is Jimmy Stewart's opponent courtroom opponent, and Lee Remick
Speaker 2: at her most beautiful as the life. So h and
Speaker 2: as I said, I mean, one of the interesting things,
Speaker 2: kind of a landmark film because you know, the Hayes
Speaker 2: code had held sway over Hollywood for decades. You know,
Speaker 2: the filmmakers weren't even allowed to use the word pregnant.
Speaker 2: Uh And the movie was considered to be very very
Speaker 2: very sexually frank at the time. In fact, so much
Speaker 2: so that supposedly, and from what I've read it was
Speaker 2: actually true, James Stewart's father took out advertisements in his
Speaker 2: local papers urging his neighbors not to see the film
Speaker 2: because it was indecent. Anyway, any of your listeners who
Speaker 2: have not seen it, I highly recommend. It's one of
Speaker 2: the great question dramas of Hollywood.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and you're right too that the actual locations were
Speaker 6: filmed the tavern and Bulker's home and law office in
Speaker 6: the courthouse where the trial is conducted.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Premature insisted on absolute authenticity, So yes,
Speaker 2: he went to the town in Michigan's Upper Peninsula and
Speaker 2: shat Lolla location where these events really happened. And the
Speaker 2: other interesting point about the movie is at the presiding Judge,
Speaker 2: Joseph Welch, has become this kind of legendary during the
Speaker 2: annals of American judas prudence, and because he was the
Speaker 2: man who during the infamous Army McCarthy hearings in the
Speaker 2: nineteen fifties, you know, finally confronted McCarthy, you know, said
Speaker 2: very famously, at long last, there have you no decency,
Speaker 2: which many people regard as the beginning of McCarthy's downfall.
Speaker 6: So that it's an important historic certainly, let's talk about
Speaker 6: one that it's surprising that it would have I think,
Speaker 6: at face value would be surprising that it would have
Speaker 6: a connection to a real life murder whrror, but Arsenic
Speaker 6: and Old Lace director Frank Capra's classic starring Carry Grant,
Speaker 6: Peter Lorie, Priscilla Lane, Raymond Massey, this is about us
Speaker 6: serial killer praying on strangers, well strangers, But this is
Speaker 6: not about serial killers praying on strangers, but it's about poisoners.
Speaker 2: Well. Art Snake of Old Lace, you know, is considered
Speaker 2: one of the you know, classic comedies of that era,
Speaker 2: and it's basically about these sort of dotty old maiden
Speaker 2: aunts of Carrie Grant who run a kind of boarding
Speaker 2: house taken elderly you know, elderly men and you know,
Speaker 2: who are not of the best of health, and then
Speaker 2: at some point treat them to some poisoned elderberry wine
Speaker 2: and give them Christian burials in the basement of the house.
Speaker 2: And you know, it's largely I think because of arsenic
Speaker 2: Old Lace, that this image of female serial poisoners as
Speaker 2: or or the image of that kind of poison murder,
Speaker 2: you know, has taken on this kind of aura some quaint,
Speaker 2: old fashioned Victorian way of disposing of people. But It
Speaker 2: was based on the case of a real life female
Speaker 2: serial poisoner named Amy Archer Gilligan who opened an old
Speaker 2: age home in Windsor, Connecticut, and you know, began bumping
Speaker 2: off her her victims. You know, she would collect fees
Speaker 2: from the family members. I think the charge was around
Speaker 2: the flat feet around thirty thousand dollars.
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Speaker 2: Follows, which was you know, quite a bit of money
Speaker 2: at that time, or actually, well, I think the flat
Speaker 2: sea was about one thousand dollars, which was equivalent to
Speaker 2: thirty thousand dollars today. And then instead of caring for
Speaker 2: them as promised, she would just poison them and you know,
Speaker 2: dispose of the bodies or claim that they had died,
Speaker 2: you know, of natural causes, and you know, she would
Speaker 2: take their possessions and whatever money they had and so on.
Speaker 2: But Amy Archer Gilligan was I became very interested in
Speaker 2: the phenomenon of female serial murder a number of years
Speaker 2: go when I was researching and writing a book called
Speaker 2: Fatal about a female, a very prolific female serial killer
Speaker 2: named Jane Toppin who confessed to thirty one murders at
Speaker 2: the turn of the twentieth century, and she was regarded.
Speaker 2: She was listed at one point in kind of Spook
Speaker 2: of World's Records as America's most prolific serial killer until
Speaker 2: she was supplanted by John Wayne Gacy. And in researching
Speaker 2: and writing that book, I you know, up until then,
Speaker 2: the standard line was that Aileen Warnos had been America's
Speaker 2: first serial killer. But you know, but I became aware
Speaker 2: that there had been a great many of these female
Speaker 2: serial poisoners who had killed way more people than Aleen
Speaker 2: Warners did. And also I realized, I came to realize
Speaker 2: that the way these female serial killers murdered their victims
Speaker 2: was in a way far more sadistic. And let's say,
Speaker 2: what Aileen ware has did, you know, because Alien warned
Speaker 2: to have got these guys down, whereas Jane Tappen and
Speaker 2: other people, you know, would subject their victims to these
Speaker 2: agonized deaths and sometimes very prolonged agonizing deaths because they
Speaker 2: wouldn't just kill them, you know, swiftly, they would make
Speaker 2: them sick and sicker and until they died. So yeah,
Speaker 2: so I'd become aware of Amy Archer Gilligan as one
Speaker 2: of America's premiere female serial killers at that point, and
Speaker 2: it was while doing my research on that subject that
Speaker 2: I became aware of her connection to the Frank Capra movie.
Speaker 2: At which I have to say, is you know, again
Speaker 2: the only case of the book in which your real
Speaker 2: life sensational murder case got transformed into a beloved comedy.
Speaker 6: Interesting too that when I look and I think other
Speaker 6: true crime fans will have this as well. They're quite
Speaker 6: familiar with some of the famous killers in this book
Speaker 6: and serial killers in this book, but not so much
Speaker 6: the connection to movies that we've heard of but maybe
Speaker 6: not have seen, especially who we didn't know there was
Speaker 6: a connection. You talk about bad Lands, What is the
Speaker 6: inspiration for the movie with bad Lands starring Martin Sheen
Speaker 6: Sissy Spasic, who are the inspiration of the movie bad Lands?
Speaker 2: Well, it was one of the very sensational murder cases
Speaker 2: of the nineteen fifties concerned a guy, a young man
Speaker 2: named Charlie Starkweather who is a kind of James Dean
Speaker 2: wannabe and a total sociopath, and his underage fourteen year
Speaker 2: old girlfriend Caroline Fugate who went on this killing spree
Speaker 2: in the bad Lands of Nebraska, you know, and it
Speaker 2: was a huge case. I mean there was, you know,
Speaker 2: made nationwide headlines, and you know, Starkweather and Fugate have
Speaker 2: kind of achieved I would say, you know, among crime
Speaker 2: aficionados something of the legendary status of some of the
Speaker 2: you know, Bonnie and Clyde for example, you know, they
Speaker 2: were this uh you know, and and and you know,
Speaker 2: they've been the basis of a number of movies I
Speaker 2: mentioned in the book. I mean so so yes. The
Speaker 2: The Terrence Malickville bad Lands, which is one of the
Speaker 2: most stunning cinematic debuts in the history of movies, you know,
Speaker 2: is a real masterpiece. I mean, it stars Charlie Sheen
Speaker 2: as stark Weather and Sissy Spacek is few get I
Speaker 2: mean they have you know, they have other names in
Speaker 2: the film, but it's very closely based on them and
Speaker 2: follows their crime spree very closely. There's another film, a
Speaker 2: low budget shocker called The Sadist, which is also based
Speaker 2: on the stark Weather Foodgate sprint in that movie, although
Speaker 2: it doesn't match malix film as the work of cinematic art.
Speaker 2: In a way captures the sociopathic nature of Charlie stark
Speaker 2: Weather more than Malex film, does you know. Malex film
Speaker 2: is so beautiful and so aestheticized a little a little
Speaker 2: dulls the horror of us of what they did. But say,
Speaker 2: you know, yeah, anyway, yes, I'm sorry.
Speaker 6: Mm hm. You talk about movies that Dillinger and the
Speaker 6: crimes of John Dillinger and his infamy inspired, like High Sierra.
Speaker 6: Tell us about a couple of movies that the crimes
Speaker 6: of John Dillinger inspired.
Speaker 2: Oh, well, you know there have been a number well
Speaker 2: High Sierra, you know, with Humphrey Bogard who plays a
Speaker 2: Dillinger like character. Uh and uh, but you know it's
Speaker 2: a you know, there are some films like bad Lands
Speaker 2: or uh Compulsion, let's say, or Anatomy of a Murder
Speaker 2: that are inspired by true crimes that follow the uh
Speaker 2: you know, that follow the cases very very closely. Then
Speaker 2: there are other films like High Sierra, Scream and one
Speaker 2: or two others that were inspired by these real crimes,
Speaker 2: but you know, really are very use them as a springboard,
Speaker 2: you know, to tell a fictional life story. And that's
Speaker 2: the case of High Sierra. I mean it uses Dillinger,
Speaker 2: you know, public enemy number one, one of the you know,
Speaker 2: legendary gangsters of that period. You know, it's a springboard
Speaker 2: for this film. But but but there were a number,
Speaker 2: but there have been a number of biopics made about Dillinger.
Speaker 2: It was a nineteen forty five movie h called Dillinger
Speaker 2: with Lawrence Chierney, who I was just I was just
Speaker 2: rewatching Quentin Tarantino's Reservoir Dogs. Chierney plays, you know, the
Speaker 2: who was in charge of the whole thing, you know.
Speaker 2: Then there was a nineteen seventy two movie Dillinger, which
Speaker 2: was the directorial debut of John Millius, you know, the
Speaker 2: very known for these two fisted, red blooded movies like
Speaker 2: Conan the Barbarian and Red Dawn and who also wrote
Speaker 2: the screenplay for Apocalypse Now and the Dirty Harry sequel
Speaker 2: Magnum Force. And in that one, Warren Oates, the late
Speaker 2: great Warren Oates, plays Dillinger. So recommend that. And then
Speaker 2: there was a John Sales scripted movie called The Lady
Speaker 2: in Red, and Roger Corman did one in nineteen ninety five.
Speaker 2: Dollinger compone. Most recently Michael Mann's publicand Enemies with Johnny
Speaker 2: deppis Dillingsher. So you know, there again, there have been
Speaker 2: a number of these films out of well advertise themselves
Speaker 2: as essentially nonfiction depictions of Dillingsher. But you know what
Speaker 2: interests me most, as I was saying in the book,
Speaker 2: were films that, uh, you know, comes a surprise to
Speaker 2: many people that they were based on real, real criminals. Yeah.
Speaker 6: Absolutely, One example of that. One example of that is
Speaker 6: The Hills Have Eyes, which is a horror flick from
Speaker 6: nineteen seventy seven, directed and written by Wes Craven, and
Speaker 6: this is two years after what you call the Texas
Speaker 6: Chainsaw Massacre. A masterpiece of horror, masterpiece, The Hills Have Eyes.
Speaker 6: This the small group of cannibalistic psychos.
Speaker 2: Yeah, how can be.
Speaker 6: Possibly related to a true crime? And what true crime
Speaker 6: was this related to?
Speaker 2: Well, Okay, this is a little tricky because a lot
Speaker 2: of questions have been raised about the historical truth of
Speaker 2: the crime that it was, of the case that it
Speaker 2: was inspired by. People even now are not entirely sure
Speaker 2: if it was fact or legend. But Craven was inspired
Speaker 2: by tales of a supposedly real historical cannibal clan, that
Speaker 2: lived and operated in Scotland. Let's see, trying to get
Speaker 2: the exact date. Well, anyway, sometime I believe in the
Speaker 2: sixteenth century, maybe the seventeenth century. Anyway, quite a long
Speaker 2: time ago. The leader, which was named Sony sanny Bean,
Speaker 2: and supposedly this was a you know, a an outlaw
Speaker 2: family who resided in the wilds of Scotland, and you know,
Speaker 2: were incestuous and cannibalistic and they were oh, I guess
Speaker 2: it was. I guess it was towards the latter half
Speaker 2: of the sixteenth century. You know. They lived in a
Speaker 2: cave and they would prey on unwary travelers whom they
Speaker 2: would rob and murder and dismember and consume. And they
Speaker 2: were finally finally captured and brought to justice, you know,
Speaker 2: by a small army led by the King of Scotland himself.
Speaker 2: So that that story has been long reported again going
Speaker 2: back to the seventeen hundreds as historically factual. Again, recent
Speaker 2: scholarship has raised serious doubts as to whether Sawny Bean
Speaker 2: and his cannibal clan really existed. But in any case,
Speaker 2: that was the that was the story that inspired the
Speaker 2: Hills Have Eyes, which is yeah, I mean a very
Speaker 2: grueling horror film about this all American family on a
Speaker 2: road trip that takes a shortcut, always a bad idea
Speaker 2: in a horror movie. And you know, and their vehicles
Speaker 2: break down, their trailer, I guess, breaks down in the desert,
Speaker 2: and they become set upon by this very very creepy
Speaker 2: feral family of Colt cannibals. So mm hmm, I think uh,
Speaker 2: I guess it was remade. Yes, it was definitely remade, Yeah,
Speaker 2: by the great yeah what's his name? The uh uh,
Speaker 2: the French guy whose name escapes here right now.
Speaker 6: But yeah, interesting, let's use this as an opportunity, Harold,
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Speaker 6: use code murder at fabfitfun dot com. Now we talked
Speaker 6: about a movie that again was as you say. Historians
Speaker 6: have said that the sunny bean legend may just be
Speaker 6: just that and not so factual. And then the hills
Speaker 6: have eyes have very little I guess connection to that
Speaker 6: actual story. But you include a story of which I
Speaker 6: found was very very interesting called The Hitchhiker from nineteen
Speaker 6: fifty three with a woman named Ida Lapino. And you say,
Speaker 6: the only classic film noir directed by a woman, and
Speaker 6: this book, this film closely based on a real life
Speaker 6: serial killer. But it's interesting the research that she did
Speaker 6: into the case herself can tell us a little bit
Speaker 6: about how far she went into this actual research for
Speaker 6: The Hitchhiker.
Speaker 2: Well, by the way, just to clarify an earlier mark
Speaker 2: you made, uh, even though the Sony Bean case again
Speaker 2: may not be factual, it was still you know, the
Speaker 2: direct inspiration. The story itself was the direct inspiration for
Speaker 2: the Hills Allies. So the Hitchhiker, uh so idle A Pino,
Speaker 2: you know, very very important figure in Hollywood. You know
Speaker 2: there in in our own time, there's been a lot
Speaker 2: of renewed interest in female uh directors, of which there
Speaker 2: were not many uh in Hollywood. Idol Apino, who is
Speaker 2: also a very well known actress in her own life. Uh,
Speaker 2: you know, is one of the most prominent female directors.
Speaker 2: And uh uh So the case that the movie The
Speaker 2: Hitchhiker is based on Uh, is a guy named a
Speaker 2: young psycho named Billy Cook, who abducted a couple of
Speaker 2: guys who are on a you know, on a on
Speaker 2: a fishing expedition. Uh. And uh, you know, took him
Speaker 2: on this sort of nightmarish, nightmarish odyssey and you know,
Speaker 2: committed these various murders along the way, and you know
Speaker 2: it's finally captured. Uh. In in in researching her movie,
Speaker 2: Lapino actually visited him when he was when he was
Speaker 2: in prison. I mean, he was ultimately convicted of kidnap
Speaker 2: murders of five members of a single of a single family,
Speaker 2: and ultimately he was executed in nineteen fifty two, but
Speaker 2: Lapino went so far as to go interview him when
Speaker 2: he was in prison to get, you know, in trying
Speaker 2: to make her films as authentic as possible. So anyway,
Speaker 2: it's a film that I was actually not fully aware
Speaker 2: of until I began researching my book. And it's definitely
Speaker 2: you know, I definitely recommend it to your viewers. I mean,
Speaker 2: the guy who plays the guy who plays the psycho
Speaker 2: was actually the actor. I don't know if I know.
Speaker 2: There's a new Perry Mason mini series on HBO. I
Speaker 2: don't know how many of your listeners recall the great
Speaker 2: classic Perry Mason series daring Raymond Burr, by the way,
Speaker 2: also played a great psycho in Alfred Hitchcock's a Window.
Speaker 2: But the psycho in this movie, the Hitchhiker, is played
Speaker 2: by the actor Hamilton Berger, who was Raymond Burr's opponent
Speaker 2: with you know, perennially losing opponent in all the Perry
Speaker 2: Mason series. So mhm.
Speaker 6: Now you talk about m being a classic nineteen thirty
Speaker 6: one written by director Fritz Lang, and you as you
Speaker 6: write and if you said that it made Peter Lorie
Speaker 6: a star, you said it was possible for Fritz Lang
Speaker 6: to induce a profound sense of horror in an audience
Speaker 6: without showing a single image of explicit violence of gore.
Speaker 6: I thought you were talking about Alfred Hitchcock for a second.
Speaker 6: But so tell us what a little bit about the
Speaker 6: movie and why it is considered classic before we talk
Speaker 6: about the crimes and murders that inspired it.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, it's it's again justifiably regarded as one
Speaker 2: of the great masterpieces of cinema. It's a German movie.
Speaker 2: Laurie again became a big star and he was you know,
Speaker 2: imported to Hollywood, where obviously he turned in some great
Speaker 2: classic performances. But and the movie is about a pedophiliac
Speaker 2: serial killer named Beckert, you know, who prays on young
Speaker 2: children girls. Uh, and uh, his crimes creates such a
Speaker 2: such public outrage. Uh. You know that the police, you know,
Speaker 2: begin to stage all these raids on every criminal hangout
Speaker 2: and they're basically putting all the criminals in Berlin out
Speaker 2: of business. So the criminals themselves decide, you know, they
Speaker 2: got to get the police off their backs and find
Speaker 2: the sky. So he's Beckett is hunted down and ultimately
Speaker 2: captured by all the you know, criminals and put on
Speaker 2: a kind of kangaroo trial. Uh, you know, which Laurie
Speaker 2: does this amazing turn and which you know, he gives
Speaker 2: this very very famous speech, you know, where it says,
Speaker 2: you don't know what it's like to be me. I mean,
Speaker 2: even though his crimes are unspeakable, he manages to generate,
Speaker 2: you know, a certain amount of sympathy because you see
Speaker 2: that he's in the grip of this incredible compulsion. But
Speaker 2: in the beginning of the film, you know, you see,
Speaker 2: you know, this mother who's in her apartment and all
Speaker 2: the mothers are waiting for their kids to come home
Speaker 2: from school. And you see a little girl on her
Speaker 2: way home from school, and this pudgy, creepy looking man,
Speaker 2: you know, Peter Laurie, stops her on the street and
Speaker 2: buys her a balloon and and you know, takes her
Speaker 2: for ice cream, and you know, meanwhile the mother, you know,
Speaker 2: that's intercut with the mother becoming increasingly worried and frantic
Speaker 2: because her little girl hasn't arrived home yet, you know.
Speaker 2: And then there's this there's this cut to you know,
Speaker 2: the balloon just you know, being caught in some electric
Speaker 2: wires or telephone wires. You know. You see, oh, you
Speaker 2: see first you see h you see the little girl,
Speaker 2: her name is Elsie. He's bought her a rubber ball,
Speaker 2: and you see the ball rolling out of some shrubbery,
Speaker 2: you know, and it's clear he's brought her behind the
Speaker 2: shrubbery to do something awful to her. And then you
Speaker 2: see her balloon tangled up in these up in these
Speaker 2: telephone wires, and you know, the whole impact is shattering,
Speaker 2: you know, because again you know, often as the greatest
Speaker 2: you know, filmmakers often know you know, leaving something to
Speaker 2: the viewer's imagination, you know, can cause you know, more
Speaker 2: of a more it's going to have a more unsettling effect,
Speaker 2: you know, then showing some graphic violins. So yeah, I
Speaker 2: mean it's an amazing film. And it was based on
Speaker 2: inspired by the crimes of one of the most notorious
Speaker 2: what they we call them now serial killers. Back then
Speaker 2: they called them, well, they call them lust murderers in
Speaker 2: twentieth century history. A gunnamed Peter Curtin, who was an
Speaker 2: extreme sadist from youth. Partly he had been schooled in
Speaker 2: sadism by this depraved neighbor of his, you know, who
Speaker 2: taught him how to derive sexual pleasure from torturing animals
Speaker 2: and so on. And he trayed on men, women, children, animals.
Speaker 2: You know, he got off, particularly on drinking their blood.
Speaker 2: He was known as a vampire of Dusseldorf. He was
Speaker 2: actually the one inspiration for America's one of America's most
Speaker 2: heinous serial kills, Albert Fish. Albert Fish, you know, cut
Speaker 2: out and saved articles about curtain. One of the interesting
Speaker 2: things I found in researching the Curtain case was that
Speaker 2: the term serial murderer was first used in connection with
Speaker 2: the Curtain Case in the nineteen thirties. You know, for
Speaker 2: a long time Robert Wrestler of the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit,
Speaker 2: claimed credit for coining the phrase serial killer, you know,
Speaker 2: and then earlier instances were found in some British publications
Speaker 2: going back to the nineteen sixties. But when I was
Speaker 2: researching the Curtain Case, I found that the head of
Speaker 2: the Berlin Homicide Division used the term Syrian mortar serial
Speaker 2: murderer to describe Hurtin. So as far as I know,
Speaker 2: that's the earliest use of the terms.
Speaker 6: And that's probably in the thirties. As you write, in
Speaker 6: this case, very interesting pravity of this vampire of Dusseldorf.
Speaker 6: Though you do talk about his childhood. It's not only
Speaker 6: the influence of the neighbor, but also the parents' life
Speaker 6: and again seeing his parents have sex and thirteen kids
Speaker 6: in a one room home, so horrendous upbringing. But they
Speaker 6: were able to get information from from Curtin himself, some
Speaker 6: kind of insight into the crimes he did, which was
Speaker 6: unprecedented at the time, obviously, wasn't it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, I mean he spoke very very very freely
Speaker 2: about you know, about his crimes. He also compared himself
Speaker 2: to Jack the Ripper. Just a quote from the book
Speaker 2: He's you know, Curtin said, you know, he said, the
Speaker 2: main thing for me was to see blood. You know,
Speaker 2: when he would slick the throats of some of his
Speaker 2: young victims, he said, the sound of blood when I
Speaker 2: cut her throat made me ejaculate. They stabbed her throat
Speaker 2: and drank the blood that cushed out. So yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: he even at one point, such was his incredibly depraved
Speaker 2: appetite that one time he was strolling through a duseledolf
Speaker 2: park and came upon a sleeping swan and cut off
Speaker 2: its head, and a drack ejaculated while drinking the blood
Speaker 2: as it pumped from the swan's neck stump.
Speaker 6: Yeah, incredible. You write about a movie that was Monsieur
Speaker 6: Verdeaux in nineteen forty seven, directed and written by Charlie Chaplin.
Speaker 6: Surprisingly boot story of blue Beard, and this was inspired
Speaker 6: by just a Mother Goose tales from Charles Perraut. Tell
Speaker 6: us what tell us a little bit about the inspiration
Speaker 6: for this, Henry Landrew, Well, the.
Speaker 2: Perout connection is that's a classic fairy tale blue Beard,
Speaker 2: which is about a young woman who is kind of
Speaker 2: forced into marrying this creepy aristocrat who has a blue beard,
Speaker 2: is taken to his castle and excuse me. Soon afterwards,
Speaker 2: he goes on a trip and gives her the keys. Says,
Speaker 2: she has free run of the castle, and these are
Speaker 2: the keys to every room, but there's one room you're
Speaker 2: not allowed to go into. And of course, when he's gone,
Speaker 2: her curiosity gets the best of her. She enters the
Speaker 2: room discovers, to her horror that's full of the dismembered
Speaker 2: body parts of all his previous lives. It's a very,
Speaker 2: very gruesome fairy tale. I mean, there are other fairy
Speaker 2: tales and folks stories of that type around the world.
Speaker 2: Folklorus collum bloody chamber stories are forbidden chamber stories. Anyway,
Speaker 2: in Western culture, blue Beard is the most famous, and
Speaker 2: the term blue beard has come to be applied to
Speaker 2: a certain kind of serial killer, men who marry a
Speaker 2: succession of wives and then and then murdered them. I'm
Speaker 2: actually in the process of researching the case of a
Speaker 2: very infamous American bluebeard named Johann haw So. In France,
Speaker 2: on rie Land Drew was probably their most famous bluebeard killer.
Speaker 2: He was actually quite a bizarre looking guy who operated
Speaker 2: after in the aftermath of the World War One, you know,
Speaker 2: in which the male young male population of Western Europe
Speaker 2: was totally decimated, you know, leaving countless widows. And land
Speaker 2: Drew again, who, in spite of his bizarre appearance, you know,
Speaker 2: obviously exerted some kind of charm you know, married a
Speaker 2: series of women and ended up, you know, murdering a
Speaker 2: bunch of them for their property. So that case, which
Speaker 2: got a great deal of international coverage, fascinated actually fascinated
Speaker 2: both Charlie Chaplin and Orson Wells, and uh, you know,
Speaker 2: the original plan was to make a kind of non
Speaker 2: fiction movie very directly based on Landrew. But anyway, what
Speaker 2: what we ended up with was uh Chaplain's comedy, well yeah,
Speaker 2: comedy in which again Chaplain plays you know, this very
Speaker 2: very charming uh uh gentlemen who seduces and then murders
Speaker 2: a bunch of women and ends you know with the
Speaker 2: courtroom uh scene in which he you know, he makes
Speaker 2: an impassioned speech in his own defense, in which he
Speaker 2: sort of justifies his crimes, you know, as being much
Speaker 2: less heinous than what, you know, than than the world
Speaker 2: than you know, what the world who's just lived through.
Speaker 2: I'm in terms of the incredible, you know, incredible destruction
Speaker 2: and devastation of World War One. You know, he says
Speaker 2: this is a mass killer. I'm an amateur by comparison,
Speaker 2: you know, to what to what civilization has done to itself.
Speaker 2: So right.
Speaker 6: Now you talk about murder on the Orient Express, and
Speaker 6: this has been filmed three times, I believe, and it's notable,
Speaker 6: not because of its accuracy and connection to an actual
Speaker 6: crime and those details, but just that this has been
Speaker 6: filmed more times. Agatha Christie adaptation filmed the most times.
Speaker 6: What I found interesting was something far less known. Is
Speaker 6: Knight of the Hunter in nineteen fifty five with Shelley
Speaker 6: Winter's Robert Mitcham. And you say, it's one of the
Speaker 6: most notorious mass murders in world history, yet is barely
Speaker 6: remembered today. Again another Lonely Hearts type case. Tell us
Speaker 6: a little bit about this Night of the Hunter in
Speaker 6: its relation to relation to the true crime that inspired it.
Speaker 2: Okay, well, just to go back for one minute. The
Speaker 2: reason I cover Murder on the Orange Express it isn't
Speaker 2: because you know the actual plot of the Agatha Christie.
Speaker 2: You know, famous murder mystery, you know, in which a
Speaker 2: murder has been committed on a train, and you know,
Speaker 2: the great Belgium detective ir Q Poirot solves the crime.
Speaker 2: You know, he knows obviously one of the you know,
Speaker 2: one of the passengers must have committed it. But the
Speaker 2: connection to real life crime is that the murder victim,
Speaker 2: the backstory of the murder victim was inspired by the
Speaker 2: very very sensational kidnapping murder of the Charles Lindbergh Son
Speaker 2: in the nineteen thirties, you know, which many people even
Speaker 2: now regard as the crime of a twentieth century. So
Speaker 2: that's the connection there. Well, The Knight of the Hunter again,
Speaker 2: great masterpiece, directed the only movie directed by the famous
Speaker 2: actor Charles Lawton, with a screenplay written by the Pulitzer
Speaker 2: Prize winning author James Age, who also wrote the screenplay
Speaker 2: for African Queen, the Great John Houston movie with Humphrey
Speaker 2: Bogar and Kevin Hepburn. So you know, it's about this
Speaker 2: really scary self proclaimed minister played by Robert Mitchum who
Speaker 2: has gone around murdering different women, as we learned in
Speaker 2: the beginning of the film, and then who sets his
Speaker 2: sights on the widow of a recently executed prisoner who
Speaker 2: he knows. Prisoner who he shared a cell with, stole
Speaker 2: a bunch of money which has never been covered. And
Speaker 2: the Mitcham character knows this money is somehow with the family,
Speaker 2: so he tracks down the family, marries the widow, Shelley Winters,
Speaker 2: you know, murders her. Anyway, It's a very stylized, poetic
Speaker 2: and terrifying movie. And again it was based on a
Speaker 2: novel and the direct inspiration for the novel. He was not,
Speaker 2: by any stretch of the imagination, you know, one of
Speaker 2: the most monstrous mass murderers, but that's how he was
Speaker 2: advertised in the tabloids of the time. But nevertheless, he
Speaker 2: was a a guy named Mary Powers, a vacuum cleaner
Speaker 2: salesman from West Virginia who would well he was. He
Speaker 2: was also a kind of blue beard killer, although he
Speaker 2: never actually married as victims, you know, but he would
Speaker 2: put these uh. He would he would answer ads or
Speaker 2: place ads to some of these lonely hearts magazines and
Speaker 2: then lure widows uh to what was really a torture chamber.
Speaker 5: Uh.
Speaker 2: He had built inside a garage in a town called
Speaker 2: Quiet dell and uh and and again he was ultimately
Speaker 2: you know, ultimately he killed uh, he murdered a number
Speaker 2: of women, He murdered some of their children, ultimately captured
Speaker 2: and hanged and uh and again it was a you know,
Speaker 2: it was an extremely sensational case locally and even nationally.
Speaker 2: There were ballads and songs created about it. So that became,
Speaker 2: as I said, the the inspiration for the novel Night
Speaker 2: of a Hunter, which then got transformed into this classic.
Speaker 2: Sell them another movie that I your viewer, if your
Speaker 2: listeners haven't seen it, I very highly recommend.
Speaker 5: Mm hmm.
Speaker 6: It's interesting you write in real life, thirty thousand curiosity
Speaker 6: seekers overran the murder farm and took everything, everything they could,
Speaker 6: anything they could get. You write about in this book
Speaker 6: some of this morbid curiosity in these huge in these
Speaker 6: huge groups and huge groups of people that want to
Speaker 6: see and have a souvenir to take home.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's you know, that happens wherever there's a
Speaker 2: so social crime. The book I wrote before this hels
Speaker 2: the Princess right about the lady Bluebeard Belgunnis have reported Deiana. Yeah, also,
Speaker 2: tens of thousands of people showed up at her murder
Speaker 2: farm after her crimes were discovered, and you know, there
Speaker 2: were again people selling ice cream and peddling postcards and
Speaker 2: the victims' bodies. Yeah, I mean you find that kind
Speaker 2: of phenomenon almost every I mean, I'm sure it's one
Speaker 2: of the reasons. For example, that ed Geanes Towns people
Speaker 2: burned down his house after his atrocities were discovered, you know,
Speaker 2: because they knew it's just going to be a tourist attraction. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean virtually every crime that I've written about you
Speaker 2: have the same phenomenon. I was just writing about a
Speaker 2: mass murder that happened in Philadelphia in eighteen sixty six,
Speaker 2: and after that crime was discovered, same thing. You know,
Speaker 2: on a Sunday, thousands of people, you know, they're running excursion.
Speaker 2: It was the very outskirts of the city, so they're
Speaker 2: running special excursion trains out there, and you know, people basically,
Speaker 2: you know, if they hadn't been stopped by the police,
Speaker 2: they would have basically taken taken the place apart. You know,
Speaker 2: people were just taking pieces of wood from the barn
Speaker 2: where their bodies were found and what kinds of stuff.
Speaker 6: So it's also fascinating you talk about a month after
Speaker 6: the arrest, the lynch mob surrounded the jailhouse and these lawmen,
Speaker 6: heavily armed Lahman had to protect him and would take
Speaker 6: him to another prison hundreds of miles away. The thousands
Speaker 6: of people storming this And there's a couple of stories
Speaker 6: in this book at the same thing where a lynch
Speaker 6: mob overcomes. Yeah, you know, in this case the police
Speaker 6: the Lahman protected them, but in the other case they
Speaker 6: were successful. So fascinating response by the public in these
Speaker 6: stories to these what was by the media made a
Speaker 6: lot of headway with publication and readership with some of
Speaker 6: these cases that fascinated the public certainly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well yeah, I mean, you know, as I'm sure
Speaker 2: you know, lynch mobs have been an unfortunate feature of
Speaker 2: our society, you know, going back a long time. You know,
Speaker 2: there have been many cases. I mean, you see, like
Speaker 2: in Western movies all the time, it's a reflection of
Speaker 2: historical truth, you know, lynch mobs. You know, sheriffs trying
Speaker 2: to hold off lynch mobs. We're trying to break into
Speaker 2: the jail, and you know, sometimes lynch mobs succeeded. I mean,
Speaker 2: one of the movies that I talk about called Fury.
Speaker 2: Another Fritz Lang movie, you know, is based on a
Speaker 2: case in which these two kidnapped murderers, you know, we're
Speaker 2: caught in jailed and you know lynch mob. This is
Speaker 2: out in California. Lynch mob broke in and you know
Speaker 2: and lynch them. So so yeah, it's not a not
Speaker 2: an unusual phenomenon, you know, not to mention all the
Speaker 2: horrific lynchings that were perpetrated against African Americans.
Speaker 6: Mm hm, we have only touched on a few of again,
Speaker 6: the forty cases that you have examined in this and
Speaker 6: and all the movies that were inspired by true crimes,
Speaker 6: including a Rope. Before I let you go, can we
Speaker 6: talk about Rope by Alfred Hitchcock, starring James Stewart and
Speaker 6: Hume Crohne, the partners in partners in murder and like
Speaker 6: you say, gay lovers was they were gay lovers implied?
Speaker 6: But tell us about this these I guess first example
Speaker 6: of what we might call thrill killers.
Speaker 2: Well, Rope. There have been several movies inspired by this case.
Speaker 2: The one that sticks closest to the fact he's Richard Brooks,
Speaker 2: Who's compulsion, But they were all inspired, including Rope, by
Speaker 2: the very very famous nineteen twenties case of Leopold and Loebe,
Speaker 2: who are these brilliant, very wealthy college age guys lived
Speaker 2: in Chicago. You know, this is one of the great
Speaker 2: again crimes of the century, of the twentieth century. They
Speaker 2: fancied themselves Nietzschean superman, uh, and to prove it to
Speaker 2: themselves in the world, they were going to commit the
Speaker 2: perfect crime. So they picked a victim, went out far.
Speaker 2: They picked a victim at random, turned out to be
Speaker 2: a fourteen year old named Bobby Franks, who was actually
Speaker 2: a cousin I can't remember which one I think of,
Speaker 2: Dicky Loeb, and murdered him and buried his naked body
Speaker 2: in a culvert outside the city, sent ransom notes to
Speaker 2: the family. In spite of their belief that they had
Speaker 2: committed the perfect crime. They were captured within days, and
Speaker 2: you know, they were sort of it struck. There's a
Speaker 2: very very powerful chord in the nation at that time,
Speaker 2: partly because they were seen as the nightmarish incarnations of
Speaker 2: what the culture at the time called the flaming youth.
Speaker 2: You know, this ad of control while jazz age kids
Speaker 2: who just lived for three uh, and they were they
Speaker 2: pled guilty, so they weren't tried, but they had a
Speaker 2: long sentencing proceeding and they were represented by the great defender,
Speaker 2: Clarence Darrow. So their trial, we'll call it, you know again,
Speaker 2: was covered nationally and internationally. So yeah, I mean, Leopold
Speaker 2: and Lobe had become you know, kind of entered into
Speaker 2: the annals of American crime as these you know, kind
Speaker 2: of quasi mythical characters like Lizzie Borden, and their story
Speaker 2: has been you know, told various times. Alfred Hitchcock's Rope,
Speaker 2: which is based on a Broadway play which is based
Speaker 2: on Leopold and Loeb, is a very interesting film. It's
Speaker 2: kind of a an experimental film which Hitchcock shot so
Speaker 2: that it looks as though it was all done in
Speaker 2: a single take, you know, kind of like the recent
Speaker 2: movie nineteen seventeen, although this one basically just takes place,
Speaker 2: you know, inside a single apartment, so you know, it's
Speaker 2: very very interesting for that reason. And its stars again
Speaker 2: one of you know, Hitchcock's favorite actors, Jimmy Stewart, as
Speaker 2: the mentor to the two young thriller killers.
Speaker 6: Yes, absolutely, we didn't get a chance to talk about
Speaker 6: Shadow of a Doubt, Scream, A Place in the Sun,
Speaker 6: looking for Mister Goodbar, The Fugitive, Double Indemnity, a classic
Speaker 6: called Elephant by Gus Van Sant, and Chicago, among some others.
Speaker 6: But that's for the reader to explore. I want to
Speaker 6: thank you very much for talking about rip from the headlines,
Speaker 6: the shocking two stories behind the movies most memory crimes.
Speaker 6: For people that might want to find out more, is
Speaker 6: there a website or obviously a Facebook page that they
Speaker 6: might take a look at more information?
Speaker 2: Well, I do have a Facebook page and a website.
Speaker 2: Harold Scheckter dot com is a website, tell you the truth.
Speaker 2: I'm not a Facebook person, and I do have a
Speaker 2: Facebook page which is overseen and created by a friend
Speaker 2: of mine. But it's there so people know how to
Speaker 2: use Facebook. They can go on that. But Harold Scheckter
Speaker 2: dot com and you know the book, you know, well, now,
Speaker 2: with so many stores closed, you know, probably the best
Speaker 2: place for interested buyers to get the book, either in
Speaker 2: it's a physical form or kindle form is Amazon? Yes?
Speaker 6: Absolutely, is there. Did I see an audiobook version of
Speaker 6: this as well?
Speaker 2: Already? Yes, there's also a very nice audio version.
Speaker 6: Great fantastic. Well, it's been a pleasure as once again
Speaker 6: Harold ripped from the headlines the shocking true stories behind
Speaker 6: the movies most memorable crimes. Fantastic. Congratulations on the book
Speaker 6: and thank you so much for this interview.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you, greating.
Speaker 6: You too, Oh, thank you. Good night.