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No purchase necessary void, We're prohibited by law 22 00:00:56.719 --> 00:01:00.200 eighteen plus terms and conditions apply. See website for detail. 23 00:01:02.359 --> 00:01:03.640 Loop Host Radio. 24 00:01:12.879 --> 00:01:16.319 You are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking 25 00:01:16.439 --> 00:01:19.439 Killers in True crime History and the authors that have 26 00:01:19.519 --> 00:01:26.799 written about them, Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every 27 00:01:26.840 --> 00:01:30.519 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 28 00:01:30.640 --> 00:01:35.159 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 29 00:01:35.519 --> 00:01:38.040 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 30 00:01:47.680 --> 00:01:50.239 Good Evening. This is your host Dan Zuvansky for the 31 00:01:50.280 --> 00:01:53.040 program True Murder, The most shocking killers in true crime 32 00:01:53.159 --> 00:01:56.680 history and the authors that have written about them. Over 33 00:01:56.719 --> 00:01:59.640 the years, Ron Francell's books have earned high praise from 34 00:01:59.680 --> 00:02:03.879 best authors such as Anne Rule and Vincent Bulagosi. He 35 00:02:03.959 --> 00:02:06.599 is the best selling author of The Darkest Night, and 36 00:02:06.640 --> 00:02:10.199 his writing has been often compared to Truman Capodi. Ron 37 00:02:10.240 --> 00:02:13.039 grew up in Wyoming. A lifelong journalist, he worked for 38 00:02:13.080 --> 00:02:17.240 newspapers in Wyoming, New Mexico, and California's Bay Area before 39 00:02:17.319 --> 00:02:21.280 hitting the road in one of America American Journalism's best beats, 40 00:02:21.520 --> 00:02:25.120 covering the evolution of the American West as a senior 41 00:02:25.120 --> 00:02:28.319 writer for the Denver Post. Shortly after nine to eleven, 42 00:02:28.400 --> 00:02:30.560 he was dispatched by the Post to cover the Middle 43 00:02:30.560 --> 00:02:33.199 East during the first few months of the Afghan War. 44 00:02:33.759 --> 00:02:36.159 In two thousand and four, became the managing editor for 45 00:02:36.199 --> 00:02:40.280 the Beaumount, TX Enterprise, where he covered the devastation of 46 00:02:41.039 --> 00:02:45.719 Hurricane Rita. After Ron's divorce, he feared he was the 47 00:02:45.879 --> 00:02:48.400 link in a long chain of his strange fathers. But 48 00:02:48.479 --> 00:02:51.000 when the author and his teenage son embark on a 49 00:02:51.080 --> 00:02:54.280 road trip to the Yukon to seek out a macabre 50 00:02:54.479 --> 00:02:58.840 cocktail containing an amputated human tow, they unwittingly begin a 51 00:02:58.919 --> 00:03:04.000 journey into their own present and future. The Sour Cocktail 52 00:03:04.039 --> 00:03:07.319 Club is a true life love story about fathers and sons, 53 00:03:07.759 --> 00:03:12.360 set against epic backdrops and overlooked places. It is also 54 00:03:13.120 --> 00:03:15.879 a roadbook that attempts to answer, for one father and 55 00:03:15.960 --> 00:03:19.599 son a pivotal life question, where does the road go? 56 00:03:21.000 --> 00:03:24.240 Our book that we're featuring this evening is The Sourtoll 57 00:03:24.639 --> 00:03:29.400 Cocktail Club with my special guest journalist and author Ron Fransell. 58 00:03:29.599 --> 00:03:32.080 Thank you for agreeing to this program and welcome back 59 00:03:32.120 --> 00:03:35.840 to True Murder. Ron Francell, p Pell Dan. 60 00:03:35.840 --> 00:03:38.639 Thank you for having me back. I'm just delighted that 61 00:03:39.360 --> 00:03:41.560 I didn't screw up so bad the last time that 62 00:03:41.599 --> 00:03:42.599 you wouldn't have me at all. 63 00:03:44.479 --> 00:03:46.479 You got to get a little bit more confidence in yourself. 64 00:03:46.599 --> 00:03:51.560 Ron I have a great time doing your show. But tonight, 65 00:03:52.919 --> 00:03:57.400 despite the build up, we're not going to be talking 66 00:03:57.439 --> 00:04:02.719 about killers or murder or anything like that. Although I 67 00:04:02.759 --> 00:04:05.800 have to admit I don't know exactly where this toe 68 00:04:05.960 --> 00:04:10.879 came from. But you know, we're not gonna well, maybe 69 00:04:10.919 --> 00:04:13.840 we'll talk about killers before it's all over. But this book, 70 00:04:14.039 --> 00:04:18.279 you know, is a little a little brighter than my 71 00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:19.360 usual fare. 72 00:04:20.519 --> 00:04:22.759 Yeah. And the thing is though that I think that 73 00:04:23.160 --> 00:04:26.519 it's very interesting for people who already are aware of 74 00:04:26.560 --> 00:04:30.560 your work, love your work, to now hear to get 75 00:04:30.560 --> 00:04:33.160 a chance which is a rare opportunity to hear about 76 00:04:33.199 --> 00:04:37.079 something that life changing in your life. And we will 77 00:04:37.120 --> 00:04:43.399 ask some questions about Obviously, you know, the book answers 78 00:04:43.439 --> 00:04:44.959 it to a certain degree, but we're going to ask 79 00:04:45.040 --> 00:04:48.240 some questions for the audience that because of course they're 80 00:04:48.279 --> 00:04:50.920 just hearing about this program, but we want to know. 81 00:04:51.759 --> 00:04:53.800 We're going to know, we're going to learn quite a 82 00:04:53.800 --> 00:04:55.639 bit about your son, and we're gonna learn quite a 83 00:04:55.639 --> 00:05:02.480 bit about yourself and your history. And so being a 84 00:05:02.519 --> 00:05:06.279 prolific writer, a true crime writer, has written a couple 85 00:05:06.839 --> 00:05:09.319 things that are very that have affected a lot of people. 86 00:05:09.680 --> 00:05:12.480 I think our audience will be very interested in how 87 00:05:12.519 --> 00:05:14.800 you came to all of this and how this has 88 00:05:15.439 --> 00:05:19.319 informed your personality and this great book that we have 89 00:05:19.399 --> 00:05:22.600 here now again, like I say, a life changing experience 90 00:05:23.079 --> 00:05:26.360 for those that don't know otherwise a true crime writer. 91 00:05:26.920 --> 00:05:35.319 So let's get to the Sour Tool cocktail club now. Now, first, 92 00:05:35.959 --> 00:05:37.839 I think we should talk about your job at the 93 00:05:37.839 --> 00:05:41.920 Denver Post. You say you drove more than eight thousand 94 00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:45.920 miles per week writing about the West, eighty thousand miles 95 00:05:45.920 --> 00:05:50.120 in your first year and root sixty six. Tell us 96 00:05:50.360 --> 00:05:55.680 what your first tell us about your marriage, and then 97 00:05:55.920 --> 00:05:59.160 tell us about your job at Denver Post. And where 98 00:05:59.199 --> 00:06:02.399 are you at that point in your marriage when you 99 00:06:02.439 --> 00:06:03.759 have this job at Denver Post. 100 00:06:03.800 --> 00:06:08.600 Take us back, Well, let me take you back a 101 00:06:08.600 --> 00:06:11.720 little bit farther than that. My then wife and I 102 00:06:11.879 --> 00:06:16.319 were the co publishers of a small daily newspaper in Wyoming, 103 00:06:16.360 --> 00:06:20.720 where we had both grown up. Now we had worked 104 00:06:20.759 --> 00:06:24.199 for newspapers elsewhere, but come back to Wyoming to raise 105 00:06:24.199 --> 00:06:27.759 our children in a small town and to run a newspaper. 106 00:06:29.439 --> 00:06:35.360 Things just ended up going badly, and not for the newspaper. 107 00:06:35.399 --> 00:06:41.319 The newspaper was doing terrifically, but the relationship is sort 108 00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:46.240 of very slowly. Gave is sagged under its own weight, 109 00:06:46.920 --> 00:06:50.639 and we ultimately divorced when my son was thirteen and 110 00:06:50.720 --> 00:06:54.839 my daughter was seventeen. Being a small town and being 111 00:06:55.040 --> 00:06:58.720 the publisher of the newspaper up to that point, it 112 00:06:58.759 --> 00:07:02.639 wasn't possible for me to just go get another job 113 00:07:02.839 --> 00:07:06.600 there in town. You know, there was no other newspaper, 114 00:07:06.680 --> 00:07:10.279 There was no other media outlet that I could just 115 00:07:10.519 --> 00:07:15.120 casually show up and start a new job. In the 116 00:07:15.199 --> 00:07:19.040 American West, the next biggest place for me to go, 117 00:07:19.639 --> 00:07:21.639 or the next best place for me to look for 118 00:07:21.680 --> 00:07:27.920 a job, was Denver, Colorado. And as it happened, they 119 00:07:28.000 --> 00:07:33.680 had been dreaming for some time about some new kind 120 00:07:33.720 --> 00:07:40.680 of reportage that for them anyway, where the typical ordinary 121 00:07:40.839 --> 00:07:46.519 journalism was told with a little bit more narrative flare. 122 00:07:46.680 --> 00:07:48.879 And because I at that point I had written some 123 00:07:49.120 --> 00:07:52.600 novels as well as had long experience as a journalist, 124 00:07:53.079 --> 00:07:55.000 they thought I was perfect for that, and so they 125 00:07:55.040 --> 00:07:59.000 assigned me to the job as a senior writer and 126 00:07:59.079 --> 00:08:05.120 a columnist to write about the evolution of the American West, 127 00:08:05.720 --> 00:08:09.560 and and my job was to wade out into this vast, 128 00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:14.720 vast region and find stories where the past, the present, 129 00:08:14.759 --> 00:08:19.240 and the future all intersected, where where by looking backward, 130 00:08:19.800 --> 00:08:22.680 we might see where we are and where we're going. 131 00:08:24.279 --> 00:08:26.959 And it was a beautiful job for me. I got 132 00:08:27.000 --> 00:08:34.960 to blend, you know, real journalism, real stories, truth, with 133 00:08:35.440 --> 00:08:39.960 all those tools that I developed as a novelist, to 134 00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:45.519 to bring drama to a story, to bring to give 135 00:08:45.559 --> 00:08:48.519 it a pace, to give it, to give it a meaning, 136 00:08:50.360 --> 00:08:54.600 and and I just loved that. And it was doing 137 00:08:54.720 --> 00:08:58.960 that that caused then my bosses to send me to 138 00:08:59.039 --> 00:09:01.559 the Middle East right after nine to eleven in hopes 139 00:09:01.600 --> 00:09:05.519 that we could begin to answer some of the questions 140 00:09:05.519 --> 00:09:08.600 that we were all asking ourselves in North America at 141 00:09:08.600 --> 00:09:15.639 that time for an American audience. And they saw no 142 00:09:15.720 --> 00:09:17.960 better way than to send someone who could tell that 143 00:09:18.159 --> 00:09:22.960 story on the short runway that I had become accustomed 144 00:09:23.200 --> 00:09:27.960 to working. So that's where I was, And in that 145 00:09:28.120 --> 00:09:34.159 process I didn't travel eight thousand miles a week, but 146 00:09:34.279 --> 00:09:37.720 my first year on the road was eighty thousand miles. 147 00:09:38.360 --> 00:09:42.039 What was happening was I was using the road as therapy. 148 00:09:42.759 --> 00:09:46.879 It was my sanctuary. I would spend five or six 149 00:09:46.960 --> 00:09:52.279 weeks generally out reporting and driving all over the American 150 00:09:52.320 --> 00:09:56.879 West looking for these stories and writing them and living 151 00:09:57.279 --> 00:10:02.080 that road life kept my mind off all the pain 152 00:10:02.240 --> 00:10:07.200 that was that that that that had uh just gripped 153 00:10:07.240 --> 00:10:11.639 me in in the in the backwash of this divorce. 154 00:10:12.240 --> 00:10:15.639 And during that time I was able also then to 155 00:10:15.639 --> 00:10:17.919 spend a lot of time with my son where he 156 00:10:18.000 --> 00:10:21.519 lived in Wyoming, because I was on the road and 157 00:10:21.600 --> 00:10:26.799 I could visit fairly often, but it wasn't every day. 158 00:10:27.840 --> 00:10:32.440 And it was in the first month or I'm sorry, 159 00:10:32.519 --> 00:10:38.519 in the first summer of of after that divorce, that 160 00:10:38.600 --> 00:10:42.039 he came to me in my my little house in 161 00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:45.759 the Colorado Rockies and we spent that glorious summer together 162 00:10:45.840 --> 00:10:48.720 and we we tried to do too much. We we 163 00:10:48.799 --> 00:10:52.919 wanted to fit every mist day into the days we had. 164 00:10:53.759 --> 00:10:59.080 So it was during that time that I ran across 165 00:10:59.320 --> 00:11:02.039 a mansion and I think on the internet one night 166 00:11:02.720 --> 00:11:07.639 about this bar in Dawson City and the Yukon, And 167 00:11:08.720 --> 00:11:13.000 what I learned was that you could go there and 168 00:11:13.039 --> 00:11:17.039 you could order a drink, and they would show you 169 00:11:17.080 --> 00:11:21.519 to a little room in the back, and there you 170 00:11:21.559 --> 00:11:26.840 would be sworn to an oath and having taken the oath, 171 00:11:27.519 --> 00:11:30.799 a funny little guy would drop into your drink, a 172 00:11:30.879 --> 00:11:35.159 mummified human tow. And when I told my son this, 173 00:11:35.399 --> 00:11:36.879 now he's thirteen years. 174 00:11:36.600 --> 00:11:37.799 Old, he. 175 00:11:39.480 --> 00:11:44.279 Was immediately intrigued by the idea. Now, I think because 176 00:11:44.279 --> 00:11:48.240 he was thirteen, anything that involved liquor and anything that 177 00:11:48.279 --> 00:11:55.039 involved disembodied body parts was fascinating to him, and so 178 00:11:55.240 --> 00:11:59.799 it became a kind of code to us after that. 179 00:12:00.120 --> 00:12:05.120 For many years, we would talk about the toe as 180 00:12:05.279 --> 00:12:07.879 this thing that we shared, this kind of fantasy that 181 00:12:07.960 --> 00:12:12.159 we shared, and we had always sworn, you know, to ourselves, 182 00:12:12.600 --> 00:12:17.039 that we would do it someday. When he became a 183 00:12:17.080 --> 00:12:25.360 college student eighteen years old, he was driving to college 184 00:12:25.799 --> 00:12:28.919 and I was checking in with him throughout the day 185 00:12:29.559 --> 00:12:31.320 because it was a long trip and it was his 186 00:12:31.360 --> 00:12:34.279 first time doing that sort of thing. And toward the 187 00:12:34.440 --> 00:12:36.879 end of that day, I noticed he was getting tired, 188 00:12:36.960 --> 00:12:39.600 and so we just would we just spend a lot 189 00:12:39.600 --> 00:12:42.159 of time on the phone talking, not doing not really 190 00:12:42.159 --> 00:12:46.080 talking about much of anything, just keeping him talking. And 191 00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:49.200 he mentioned that during that day he had thought about 192 00:12:49.240 --> 00:12:53.639 the toe, and it was at that moment that I 193 00:12:53.799 --> 00:12:57.919 decided we were going to do this. And so it's 194 00:12:58.440 --> 00:13:04.080 the road you know lies literally under this story obviously, 195 00:13:04.559 --> 00:13:08.080 you know, a nearly five thousand mile journey to the 196 00:13:08.200 --> 00:13:14.240 Yukon and to the Arctic beyond. But it lies in 197 00:13:14.320 --> 00:13:19.639 the sort of metaphoric sense under this story too. 198 00:13:21.039 --> 00:13:23.360 Now, let's for our audience. I think this is a 199 00:13:23.480 --> 00:13:27.039 very very important part of the story. Is your own 200 00:13:27.320 --> 00:13:32.559 childhood and your own relationship with your father, biological father 201 00:13:32.679 --> 00:13:36.200 and your stepfather. Tell us about that. Take us back 202 00:13:36.200 --> 00:13:39.759 to your life and tell us about that. 203 00:13:41.879 --> 00:13:45.240 When my mother was pregnant with me, her first child, 204 00:13:45.879 --> 00:13:50.279 the young woman and married less than two years before 205 00:13:53.159 --> 00:13:59.159 my biological father left and never came back and never 206 00:13:59.240 --> 00:14:06.679 turned around. It was many years I was a young 207 00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:12.240 boy before she told me that my biological father had 208 00:14:12.279 --> 00:14:15.720 abandoned us, and that the man that I knew was 209 00:14:15.759 --> 00:14:19.799 my father and who continues today to be my father, 210 00:14:21.720 --> 00:14:27.639 was not, you know, my biological father. And that's kind 211 00:14:27.639 --> 00:14:30.639 of confusing when you're eight or nine years old, and 212 00:14:30.679 --> 00:14:35.960 it was confusing to me. Nevertheless, I grew up with 213 00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:40.039 my stepfather. I continue, you know now to have a 214 00:14:40.080 --> 00:14:44.080 wonderful relationship with my stepfather. But for many years I 215 00:14:44.080 --> 00:14:48.039 didn't know anything more than what my mother had told me, 216 00:14:48.120 --> 00:14:54.519 which wasn't much about my biological father. I found him 217 00:14:55.320 --> 00:14:57.759 when I was thirty years old. I was a journalist, 218 00:14:57.799 --> 00:15:00.200 and I used a lot of the skills that I'd 219 00:15:00.279 --> 00:15:05.120 learned as a researcher and as a journalist to find him, 220 00:15:05.200 --> 00:15:11.639 and he at that time was living in Panama, so 221 00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:16.039 it was another couple of years before we actually met, 222 00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:22.159 and it was it was a very strange meeting, as 223 00:15:22.159 --> 00:15:25.480 you might imagine. I told him in our very first 224 00:15:25.519 --> 00:15:28.120 face to face meeting, that I wasn't looking for a father. 225 00:15:28.840 --> 00:15:31.399 I had curiosity about where I came from, as you 226 00:15:31.480 --> 00:15:34.399 might imagine, but that I had a wonderful father and 227 00:15:34.440 --> 00:15:37.279 I didn't need a father, and that the best he 228 00:15:37.320 --> 00:15:42.960 could hope for was that we might be friends. In time, 229 00:15:43.080 --> 00:15:46.480 I learned his story, and I learned that he too 230 00:15:46.759 --> 00:15:49.919 had been abandoned in his life by his own father, 231 00:15:51.159 --> 00:15:55.759 And as fate would have it, I learned even later 232 00:15:56.960 --> 00:16:04.919 that my grandfather had also been abandoned by his father. 233 00:16:05.320 --> 00:16:09.120 So we're looking at essentially four generations of what I 234 00:16:09.159 --> 00:16:15.120 call accidental bastards, people who ended up not having a 235 00:16:15.159 --> 00:16:20.080 close relationship with their biological fathers. And here I was 236 00:16:20.279 --> 00:16:27.200 newly divorced and contemplating that I had just in my way, 237 00:16:28.360 --> 00:16:32.399 abandoned my own son. Suddenly it became very important to 238 00:16:32.440 --> 00:16:37.240 me to try to rectify that. I couldn't go back, 239 00:16:37.360 --> 00:16:44.919 I couldn't change time. But I began to think about 240 00:16:45.720 --> 00:16:50.879 how I might disrupt this rhythm, how what I could 241 00:16:50.919 --> 00:16:56.240 do that might cause my son not to be in 242 00:16:56.279 --> 00:17:00.759 the same position I, my father, my grandfather, and my 243 00:17:00.919 --> 00:17:06.160 great grandfather had been in. So that that all plays 244 00:17:06.200 --> 00:17:11.960 into this this very very interesting, very poignant, very funny 245 00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:17.799 at some point story into the wilderness of Canada. 246 00:17:19.319 --> 00:17:22.920 Now you asked him some profound questions as well. What 247 00:17:23.079 --> 00:17:26.680 I found very again this is you've You've bared yourself 248 00:17:26.720 --> 00:17:32.480 to the to the bone here and left nothing. He's 249 00:17:32.519 --> 00:17:36.279 left nothing out. But you talk about posing the question 250 00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:40.440 to this Tom Lane, your biological father, about whether he's 251 00:17:40.519 --> 00:17:45.440 actually loved, if he's actually explained what exactly you ask 252 00:17:45.559 --> 00:17:47.759 him and what he asked of you, and why you 253 00:17:47.799 --> 00:17:48.640 asked that question. 254 00:17:50.559 --> 00:17:53.440 I you know the wording. I'd have to look at 255 00:17:53.440 --> 00:17:55.960 the book to get the exact wording. But I was 256 00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:01.160 trying to get at his capacity for love, because of 257 00:18:01.200 --> 00:18:06.799 course I had never felt loved by him. But having 258 00:18:06.880 --> 00:18:10.640 gone through that divorce. As I did, I began to 259 00:18:10.880 --> 00:18:15.759 wonder about my own capacity for love. You know, when 260 00:18:15.799 --> 00:18:19.480 you don't have a model for that, when you don't 261 00:18:19.559 --> 00:18:25.279 when you can't look around at your own experience and 262 00:18:25.519 --> 00:18:28.519 find a model for what love looks like. 263 00:18:30.519 --> 00:18:34.319 With the Lucky Landslopts, you can get lucky just about anywhere. 264 00:18:35.160 --> 00:18:38.039 It's your captain speaking. We've got clear runway and the 265 00:18:38.039 --> 00:18:39.880 weather's fine, but we're just going to circle up here 266 00:18:39.920 --> 00:18:43.000 a while and get lucky. No, no, nothing like that. 267 00:18:43.079 --> 00:18:45.519 It's just these cash prizes add up quick, So I 268 00:18:45.559 --> 00:18:47.839 suggest you sit back, keep your trade table up right, 269 00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:49.079 and start getting lucky. 270 00:18:49.960 --> 00:18:52.759 Pay for free at Lucky landslipes dot com. Are you 271 00:18:52.880 --> 00:18:56.519 feeling lucky? No purchase necessary void. We're prohibited by Law 272 00:18:56.640 --> 00:19:00.000 eighteen plus. Terms and conditions apply. See website for details. 273 00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:03.200 It is Ryan here and I have a question for you. 274 00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:05.400 What do you do when you win? 275 00:19:05.799 --> 00:19:05.920 Like? 276 00:19:05.960 --> 00:19:08.960 Are you a fist pumper, a woo or a handclapp 277 00:19:09.039 --> 00:19:10.920 or a high fiver? I kind of like the high five. 278 00:19:10.920 --> 00:19:12.720 But if you want to hone in on those winning moves, 279 00:19:12.880 --> 00:19:16.039 check out Chumbuck Casino at chumbacasino dot com. Choose from 280 00:19:16.119 --> 00:19:18.680 hundreds of social casino style games for your chance to 281 00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:22.519 redeem serious cash prize. There are new game releases weekly, 282 00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:25.480 plus free daily bonuses, so don't wait start having the 283 00:19:25.480 --> 00:19:28.160 most fun ever at Chumbuck Casino dot. 284 00:19:28.039 --> 00:19:31.400 Com were necessarily if I lost the terms conditions eighteen plus. 285 00:19:31.599 --> 00:19:35.400 You don't know if you're doing it right. Yeah, you 286 00:19:35.519 --> 00:19:41.079 might think at times that this is you know that 287 00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:46.720 you've gotten it, and then it feels like love, But 288 00:19:46.960 --> 00:19:50.119 when it comes right down to it, you don't really know, 289 00:19:50.319 --> 00:19:52.920 do you. I mean, if you if you don't know 290 00:19:53.000 --> 00:19:58.559 what it looks like, how can you know? How can 291 00:19:58.599 --> 00:20:00.920 you know if you're doing it right? So that that's 292 00:20:01.039 --> 00:20:06.519 what was kind of going through my mind that that, Uh, 293 00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:14.079 I questioned his obviously I questioned his capacity for love, 294 00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:18.079 but I wondered if I had inherited that in some way, 295 00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:23.079 And so I was really kind of exploring. I was 296 00:20:23.119 --> 00:20:27.119 really kind of exploring the nature of love and and 297 00:20:27.400 --> 00:20:29.519 the love, the kind of love we talk about between 298 00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:33.200 fathers and sons, and and do do I answer that? 299 00:20:33.319 --> 00:20:36.039 I don't know. I think people take away from this 300 00:20:36.279 --> 00:20:41.480 kind of a story what they will. There's it's very 301 00:20:41.519 --> 00:20:50.119 difficult sometimes to to to predict or even to expect 302 00:20:50.319 --> 00:20:54.720 that your message is what they will they will get. 303 00:20:56.039 --> 00:21:00.759 But in that particular, in that particular exchange that we 304 00:21:00.839 --> 00:21:09.519 talk about, we go into that and in a way 305 00:21:09.640 --> 00:21:12.839 that is kind of poignant. I think. 306 00:21:13.880 --> 00:21:16.799 Yeah, you also asked a question, because you did the quote, 307 00:21:16.839 --> 00:21:19.599 you said, do you think do you wonder if you're 308 00:21:19.640 --> 00:21:23.079 capable of truly loving someone? And then later in the 309 00:21:23.119 --> 00:21:26.640 conversation or that day, you asked, do you ever feel 310 00:21:27.200 --> 00:21:31.039 that something is broken inside you? And what did he 311 00:21:31.160 --> 00:21:32.759 say to that question? 312 00:21:35.000 --> 00:21:41.400 I think he refreshed my memory. You know, my father 313 00:21:42.680 --> 00:21:45.720 is is a vagabond, am I And I don't even 314 00:21:45.720 --> 00:21:48.559 call him my father. I do for radio, I guess, 315 00:21:48.599 --> 00:21:51.680 But but he's not my father per se. And I 316 00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:53.720 refer to him in the book by a different name. 317 00:21:54.240 --> 00:22:03.039 But he's evasive that way. He he he will, he's 318 00:22:03.279 --> 00:22:05.079 as I say in the book, he's all he's the 319 00:22:05.160 --> 00:22:08.960 hero of his own stories and and all of his 320 00:22:09.160 --> 00:22:12.960 own stories. And and so in any answer he gives you, 321 00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:14.359 you have to you kind of kind of have to 322 00:22:14.440 --> 00:22:20.119 hold it up against that and and and that becomes 323 00:22:20.200 --> 00:22:27.839 the test. So I you know, he you know, he 324 00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:32.240 he talks about what passes for love, and and he 325 00:22:32.359 --> 00:22:36.400 talks that's kind of an illusory kind of term to me, 326 00:22:36.599 --> 00:22:40.559 that that he he he thinks he's been in love 327 00:22:40.680 --> 00:22:43.559 or at least what passes for love. And I begin 328 00:22:43.720 --> 00:22:47.599 to use that same sort of phraseology as I go 329 00:22:47.759 --> 00:22:51.799 through this book. Uh, and it pops up here and 330 00:22:51.839 --> 00:22:56.119 there in unexpected places, you know what passes for love 331 00:22:56.279 --> 00:23:01.240 or what passes for drunk, or you know what for adventure. 332 00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:08.880 And he gave me some of the really you know, 333 00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:12.079 I think interesting parts of this story. 334 00:23:12.440 --> 00:23:15.880 Yeah, you know, the other before we get to more 335 00:23:15.920 --> 00:23:19.680 of the the actual trip itself and more of the planning. 336 00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:23.920 What I found very interesting as well, and it mustn't 337 00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:26.240 have a profound effect on you in a negative way, 338 00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:33.160 was that that your parents didn't show. It seemed to 339 00:23:33.200 --> 00:23:36.279 be your mother was disappointed that you didn't have a 340 00:23:36.319 --> 00:23:39.920 different career and that you had picked journalism, and that 341 00:23:40.319 --> 00:23:42.400 when you got married, they didn't even show up at 342 00:23:42.400 --> 00:23:44.759 the attend the wedding, which was a month after you 343 00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:48.079 graduated journalism school. And it seemed that you didn't find out, 344 00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:50.839 and you explained in this book Final two years later, 345 00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:53.400 that you didn't realize that that's what it was. It 346 00:23:53.720 --> 00:23:58.720 seemed to be a disappointment in your choice of career 347 00:23:58.799 --> 00:24:04.319 and profession. And and you don't sum up how important 348 00:24:04.359 --> 00:24:07.359 that was or how profound that was an effect on you. 349 00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:11.880 But how of what what did that do to you 350 00:24:11.960 --> 00:24:16.240 when you your choice of profession. Instead of the parents 351 00:24:16.240 --> 00:24:19.680 being real proud, they seem to not, you know, not 352 00:24:19.759 --> 00:24:22.039 be in contact for a while. Please explain that. 353 00:24:21.960 --> 00:24:25.279 Right, Well, my parents were, you know, children of the 354 00:24:25.559 --> 00:24:31.839 of the Second World War, really, and they were both 355 00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:36.680 born right at the tail end of the depression. To them, 356 00:24:38.759 --> 00:24:43.519 college they couldn't get college. First of all, they didn't 357 00:24:43.640 --> 00:24:46.720 understand college. They couldn't see how this was a value 358 00:24:47.160 --> 00:24:50.599 to them. It was you're paying somebody to tell you 359 00:24:50.680 --> 00:24:53.880 how to go get a job when you could just 360 00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:59.319 go get a job. And and and so it didn't 361 00:24:59.359 --> 00:25:02.680 make sense to them. And and and we were you know, 362 00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:09.839 I would say, lower middle class family. And and they 363 00:25:09.880 --> 00:25:12.119 didn't have the wherewithal to send me to college. So 364 00:25:12.240 --> 00:25:14.000 it became the easiest thing in the world for them 365 00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:16.960 to say, well, you know, you're not going to go 366 00:25:17.000 --> 00:25:20.880 to college unless you can pay for it yourself. Ultimately 367 00:25:21.240 --> 00:25:24.480 I did. I didn't do that exactly. And and I 368 00:25:24.519 --> 00:25:29.039 am to this day, the only the only one in 369 00:25:29.079 --> 00:25:34.559 my family of five kids and and their kids except 370 00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:39.440 for my own children who went to college. Now my 371 00:25:39.599 --> 00:25:41.920 both of my children have gone to college too, but 372 00:25:43.279 --> 00:25:46.079 you know, that's a reality that a lot of people 373 00:25:46.200 --> 00:25:56.960 live with. My mother in particular, saw saw me at 374 00:25:57.119 --> 00:26:01.640 as too dreamy. When I remember her asking me one time, 375 00:26:01.680 --> 00:26:02.799 you know, what is it you want to do with 376 00:26:02.839 --> 00:26:04.680 your life? And she sort of put it in that 377 00:26:04.759 --> 00:26:08.480 kind of in that kind of cant, you know, she's 378 00:26:08.799 --> 00:26:11.119 what is it you want to do with your life? 379 00:26:11.200 --> 00:26:13.000 And when I said, you know, I'd like to become 380 00:26:13.000 --> 00:26:16.519 a reporter. Someday, I'd like to run my own newspaper, 381 00:26:17.759 --> 00:26:21.240 she was dismissive of that because she saw not because 382 00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:23.920 she thought I was an idiot, but because she thought 383 00:26:23.960 --> 00:26:28.119 I was kidding myself right, and that I wasn't being realistic, 384 00:26:28.440 --> 00:26:31.279 and that I was only setting myself up for disappointment, 385 00:26:31.599 --> 00:26:34.440 probably a lot like the disappointments that she had felt 386 00:26:34.440 --> 00:26:37.079 in her own young life, and she knew the pain 387 00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:42.759 of that. So I think that that's where it comes from. 388 00:26:42.880 --> 00:26:49.319 And she she I have no greater supporter now that 389 00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:53.160 I'm a you know, an accomplished journalist, that I'm a 390 00:26:53.400 --> 00:26:59.680 best selling author and that I'm telling stories like this one. 391 00:26:59.799 --> 00:27:03.759 I have no greater fan than my mother, But in 392 00:27:03.799 --> 00:27:09.799 those early days, I think her hyper sense of reality 393 00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:18.079 and my dreamy qualities, my fantasies about becoming a writer, 394 00:27:20.079 --> 00:27:26.119 really bothered her and it did work on me, but 395 00:27:26.240 --> 00:27:30.279 it probably made me all the more interested in succeeding 396 00:27:30.319 --> 00:27:31.839 as a writer and a journalist. 397 00:27:33.160 --> 00:27:36.000 Now, before we go a little bit further, I want 398 00:27:36.039 --> 00:27:41.200 to know, in the context of this story here, you 399 00:27:41.960 --> 00:27:47.319 were in the in Afghanistan in two thousand and or 400 00:27:47.400 --> 00:27:50.880 just in two thousand and one, and let me see, 401 00:27:50.920 --> 00:27:56.680