1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,879 Speaker 1: So, by the way, spoiler right, that is why you 2 00:00:03,919 --> 00:00:08,119 can sometimes hear in liturgy when they are singing that 3 00:00:08,279 --> 00:00:10,919 verse in the Catholic Church, there's a moment when they 4 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:13,679 sing that verse it is referring to Jesus actually, and 5 00:00:13,679 --> 00:00:16,559 so when you hear the pope praising Lucifer, he is 6 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:20,519 of course not praising Satan. He is praising Jesus as Lucifer. 7 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:22,800 And so you'd say, well, how is it possible that 8 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:24,920 we use the word Lucifer. 9 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:25,519 Speaker 2: To talk about the devil? 10 00:00:25,879 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: But in the New Testament, Lucifer, the morning star, the 11 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:45,679 bright morning star, is referring to Jesus. This is Jonathan Peshel, 12 00:00:46,320 --> 00:01:00,560 Welcome to the Symbolic world. Hello everyone, Today we are 13 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:04,959 going to talk about the symbolism of Lucifer. And this 14 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:08,760 video is prompted by something I saw a while ago 15 00:01:09,359 --> 00:01:13,959 where I saw certain Christians, certain type of Christians, freaking 16 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:17,959 out because they found a video of the Pope of 17 00:01:18,079 --> 00:01:22,439 Rome praising Lucifer. And so they were freaking out because 18 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:24,760 here this proves, you know, that the Catholic Church is 19 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:29,120 a Satanic thing. And so I thought it was pretty funny, 20 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:32,319 and so it seemed like it could be an excuse 21 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:36,480 to explain the symbolism of Lucifer because it is a 22 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:39,640 good example of one of the aspects of symbolism that 23 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:42,519 I talk about all the time, which is that symbolism 24 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:48,560 is structural, it is positional, and it is not necessarily 25 00:01:48,599 --> 00:01:52,359 moral in itself. That is, the terms of symbolism occupy 26 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:56,879 certain places in a hierarchy of being, and therefore they 27 00:01:56,879 --> 00:02:02,120 can be used in multiple ways. So symbolism is polysemic. 28 00:02:02,319 --> 00:02:04,319 That's a complicated word, but what it means is that 29 00:02:04,599 --> 00:02:09,120 symbolism can mean many things, but ultimately those meanings will 30 00:02:09,159 --> 00:02:13,240 nonetheless come together in a positional way once you understand 31 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,479 it that way that they refer to certain places in 32 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:18,599 the structure of being, you could say. So that's what 33 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:20,479 we're going to look at and look a little bit 34 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:23,199 about at the origin of the notion of Lucifer and 35 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:26,159 symbolism in the Christian tradition in the Bible. 36 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 2: And see what it is that we come up with. 37 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:31,319 Speaker 1: So before we start, I just want to remind you 38 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,919 that you know there is way, there are ways that 39 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:37,319 you can join us on the symbolic World. If you 40 00:02:37,319 --> 00:02:39,439 go to the Symbolic World dot com, you will find 41 00:02:39,479 --> 00:02:42,639 there's a community tab and you can join the Symbolic 42 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:45,479 World either with a free account to join in on 43 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:47,919 our discussions in the community there, or you can also 44 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:51,000 support what we're doing by becoming a member, a paying 45 00:02:51,039 --> 00:02:53,840 member where you get a Q and A every month 46 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:57,199 and also an extra video a month and different discounts 47 00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:58,400 on different things that we're doing. 48 00:02:58,719 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 2: And some of the things we're doing. 49 00:02:59,759 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 1: Right now now, for example, is we've got a class 50 00:03:02,439 --> 00:03:05,520 by John Vervaki coming up on the. 51 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:05,599 Speaker 2: Science of. 52 00:03:07,199 --> 00:03:10,599 Speaker 1: The cognitive science of ritual but also a class by 53 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:15,599 Martin Shaw which is on the Christian Wonder Tales, which 54 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:18,120 I can't wait to see both of those. And finally, 55 00:03:18,159 --> 00:03:21,120 don't forget that our Symbolic World shop is open and 56 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:23,159 we have a pre sell for our new fairy tale, 57 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:26,840 Jack and the Fallen Giants, as well as there are 58 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:30,479 snow White books and also God's Dog Books Volume one, 59 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:32,719 Volume two, and all the extra stuff that comes with it. 60 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:35,919 And so having said all that, here we go with 61 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:39,719 the symbolism of Lucifer. So in scripture, there is a 62 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:44,360 there's a text. First of all, the term Lucifer comes 63 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:50,439 from the appellation of the planet Venus in the sky 64 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:54,680 as it appears in the morning, and so often not 65 00:03:54,719 --> 00:03:57,159 always during the year, the planet Venus will appear in 66 00:03:57,159 --> 00:03:59,599 the sky before the sunrise and will be very very 67 00:03:59,639 --> 00:04:03,080 bright because the sun is shining on it before the 68 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,000 sun comes, and so it's the dawn star, the morning star, 69 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,879 the bringer of light. In Greek, it has several names, 70 00:04:10,159 --> 00:04:13,319 Phosphorus which means the light bringer, or Heros for us, 71 00:04:13,319 --> 00:04:15,599 which means the dawn bringer. And this is of course 72 00:04:15,639 --> 00:04:19,560 what Lucifer means. Lucifer means the one who brings the light, 73 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:21,959 the light bringer, the light carrier, and all of that, 74 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:26,079 because it refers to Venus in the morning, right, and 75 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:32,000 so this has brought about a whole slew of symbolism 76 00:04:32,439 --> 00:04:35,839 in scripture, but then also in the Falling tradition, and 77 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:39,720 so of course many times, especially in the modern world, 78 00:04:39,759 --> 00:04:42,040 when we use the word Lucifer, what we're referring to 79 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,519 is the evil one, right, the Satan, the opposer, the opponent, 80 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:50,920 the challenger. And there are reasons why that's the case. 81 00:04:51,319 --> 00:04:56,399 We'll look at those reasons as well. But Lucifer is 82 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:01,120 also a designation for Christ themselves. In fact, the only 83 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:04,519 place in the New Testament where there is a reference 84 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:08,160 to the morning Star, the bright morning Star. That is, 85 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:12,040 in talking about Christ in Revelation twenty two, Christ says, 86 00:05:12,519 --> 00:05:14,920 I am the root of the authoring of David and 87 00:05:14,959 --> 00:05:19,120 the bright morning Star. So, by the way, spoiler right, 88 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:23,279 that is why you can sometimes hear in liturgy when 89 00:05:23,319 --> 00:05:27,680 they are singing that song singing that verse in the 90 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:29,920 Catholic Church, there is a moment when they sing that 91 00:05:30,079 --> 00:05:31,839 verse it is referring to Jesus. 92 00:05:31,879 --> 00:05:32,720 Speaker 2: Actually, and so when. 93 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: You hear the pope praising Lucifer, he is of course 94 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:39,639 not praising Satan. He is praising He is praising Jesus 95 00:05:39,879 --> 00:05:42,319 as Lucifer. And so you'd say, well, how is it 96 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:45,160 possible that we use the word Lucifer. 97 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:45,759 Speaker 2: To talk about the devil? 98 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:50,160 Speaker 1: But in the New Testament, Lucifer the morning Star, the 99 00:05:50,199 --> 00:05:53,920 bright morning Star is referring to Jesus. And so this 100 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:57,120 of course comes from a text in the Book of 101 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:01,519 Isaiah Isaiah fourteen, where Isaiah is talking about a king 102 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:05,240 of Babylon and is describing this haughty king of Babylon 103 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:06,560 who will fall. 104 00:06:06,639 --> 00:06:07,759 Speaker 2: And so we'll read from. 105 00:06:07,639 --> 00:06:11,600 Speaker 1: It Isaiah fourteen, how you are falling from heaven, Oh, 106 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:14,600 Lucifer's son of the morning, how you are cut down 107 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:17,720 to the ground, you who weaken the nations. For you 108 00:06:17,759 --> 00:06:20,079 have said in your heart, I will ascend into heaven. 109 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:23,000 I will exalt my throne above the stars of God. 110 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:26,079 I will also sit on the mount of the congregation, 111 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:29,439 on the farthest sides of the north. I will ascend 112 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:32,439 above the heights of the clouds. I will be like 113 00:06:32,519 --> 00:06:36,240 the most high. Yet you shall be brought down to shale, 114 00:06:36,439 --> 00:06:39,040 to death, to the lowest depth of the pit. 115 00:06:39,639 --> 00:06:39,959 Speaker 2: Ah. 116 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:43,160 Speaker 1: So now you can see where this imagery comes from. 117 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:45,480 And of course this text is talking about a king 118 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:49,480 of Babylon, but you can understand how it's a structural text. 119 00:06:49,959 --> 00:06:52,879 And you know because of the text in Revelation which 120 00:06:52,959 --> 00:06:58,319 describes the drake dragon that brought that with its tail 121 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:02,959 gathered all these stars from heaven and then you know, 122 00:07:03,199 --> 00:07:06,240 made them fall down to earth, and that rebelled against 123 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,279 God by taking these stars. And when we talk about stars, 124 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:11,879 of course you understand the symbolic world that the stars 125 00:07:12,079 --> 00:07:14,319 are of course the stars and the heaven, but there 126 00:07:14,319 --> 00:07:17,439 are also images of the angels or the gods or 127 00:07:17,839 --> 00:07:20,839 the bright beings that are in the heavens that you 128 00:07:20,839 --> 00:07:23,560 know that rule over the world. And so in the 129 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:25,839 Book of Revelation, when he talks about the dragon that 130 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:28,839 gathers these stars and makes them fall into the earth, 131 00:07:29,319 --> 00:07:32,399 you can understand how the Church fathers, you know, very 132 00:07:32,399 --> 00:07:35,759 early Tertullian origin, you know, some of the very early fathers, 133 00:07:35,759 --> 00:07:39,399 and then later Augustine, and you know, it just became 134 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:42,560 basic tradition to understand that this text in the Book 135 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:46,560 of Isaiah referring in collaboration with the book the text 136 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:50,480 and the Book of Revelation is referring to Satan or 137 00:07:50,519 --> 00:07:52,560 the evil one as well. So it's referring of course 138 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:55,399 to the King of Babylon, but it also is an 139 00:07:55,439 --> 00:08:00,800 image of the Satanic the Satanic trope, right, where a 140 00:08:00,879 --> 00:08:07,000 being that is important and has authority will rise try 141 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:09,720 to take the authority for himself, you know. And so 142 00:08:09,839 --> 00:08:12,040 this is what is being described in the text and Isaiah. 143 00:08:12,079 --> 00:08:15,439 So you can understand. Now, let's say an aspect of 144 00:08:15,519 --> 00:08:18,279 the morning star, a negative aspect of the morning star, 145 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:23,120 which is the star comes up in the morning and 146 00:08:23,199 --> 00:08:26,319 it appears very very bright in the sky. And so 147 00:08:26,639 --> 00:08:31,439 it is it is something that announces the sun, right, 148 00:08:31,519 --> 00:08:35,240 it is a messenger for the sun because when you 149 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:37,240 see the morning star up in the sky. You know 150 00:08:37,919 --> 00:08:40,399 that the sun is coming. So it's a smaller light, 151 00:08:40,919 --> 00:08:44,600 which is a vessel or a vehicle or a messenger 152 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:48,039 for a larger light. You could say that all authority 153 00:08:48,399 --> 00:08:50,720 is meant to play that role, right, And so any 154 00:08:50,759 --> 00:08:54,440 authority in the world, at every single level, is always 155 00:08:54,600 --> 00:09:01,159 there shining brightly, right, because they are a messenger. They 156 00:09:01,159 --> 00:09:04,600 are derivative of a higher light that is above them. 157 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:07,399 You know, that is giving them their light. And so 158 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:13,080 without the general right, the corporal has nothing. But the 159 00:09:13,159 --> 00:09:16,039 corporal does shine with a certain amount of light and 160 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:18,840 has a certain amount of authority and power. But that 161 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:24,039 authority and power is derived from the higher power. So 162 00:09:24,039 --> 00:09:27,240 you can understand that this description of lucifer is structural. 163 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:32,000 But now it can happen that someone who has authority, 164 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:36,000 someone who has power, will try to take that power 165 00:09:36,039 --> 00:09:39,320 for themselves, and not only take the power for themselves, 166 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:41,799 but will try to cause a revolution in the heavens, 167 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:45,039 will cause a revolution in the hierarchy, where they will 168 00:09:45,039 --> 00:09:49,519 try to supplant the power from which they get their authority, 169 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:52,039 supplant the authority from which they get their This is 170 00:09:52,039 --> 00:09:54,879 of course the revolutionary trope it's imaged in so many 171 00:09:54,879 --> 00:09:57,480 ways in mythology, you know, where there is the idea 172 00:09:57,519 --> 00:10:04,840 of Saturn castor his father heaven ornos kronosk castrating his father. 173 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:08,200 But it is also this image of the dragon of 174 00:10:08,279 --> 00:10:12,120 course that opposes heaven and now tries to take the 175 00:10:12,159 --> 00:10:15,399 principalities for them. So you can imagine how the morning 176 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:20,480 star becoming arrogant and thinking that the light that it 177 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:24,919 has is only its light, and that it has all 178 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:27,399 the light you know, and is stronger than the sun. 179 00:10:27,759 --> 00:10:30,240 But then it's a form of hubris because of course, 180 00:10:30,759 --> 00:10:36,399 once the sun appears, Venus disappears. Right, once the sun 181 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:40,120 appears in the heaven, the morning star vanishes. You can't 182 00:10:40,159 --> 00:10:44,240 see it anymore because the sun is too bright. And 183 00:10:44,279 --> 00:10:48,240 so you can understand how this is also an image 184 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,519 of how you know, without how can I say this 185 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:55,399 that if a secondary authority, if any being, tries to 186 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:57,559 take the authority they have or the power they have 187 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:02,639 for themselves, then ultimately they are eclipsed by the thing 188 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:05,960 that causes them, right, And so that is of course 189 00:11:06,039 --> 00:11:10,279 the negative aspect of the morning star. But you know, 190 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:13,720 there is of course a very positive aspect to the 191 00:11:13,759 --> 00:11:17,679 symbolism of Lucifer and of the morning star, which is 192 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:23,960 this idea of a hierarchy and a kind of fractal participation. 193 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:23,919 Speaker 2: In the light. 194 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 1: And so the sun gives its light to the star, 195 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:31,799 and now the star shines forth in the name of 196 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:34,759 that light. So you can imagine when Christ says something like, 197 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:37,200 I do not do my own will, but I do 198 00:11:37,279 --> 00:11:39,559 the will of the Father. This is an example of 199 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:43,720 the proper manifestation of Lucifer. There is all the light 200 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:47,360 that the Sun has. He receives from the Father, that 201 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:50,679 the divinity is received from the Father, and then is 202 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:54,200 not taken for something in which to raise himself up, 203 00:11:54,759 --> 00:11:58,399 but is ultimately given out right and is given up 204 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:02,559 to God, and is is seen as, let's say, not 205 00:12:02,639 --> 00:12:07,440 something that belongs to him. But because of that then 206 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:10,600 he is raised up right. And so this is of 207 00:12:10,639 --> 00:12:13,399 course again now the image of Lucifer in a positive way, 208 00:12:13,759 --> 00:12:18,080 because Lucifer, because the star that comes before the dawn, 209 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:22,919 if it gives its authority back to the Sun, if 210 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:26,039 it understands that it is derivative of the Sun, then 211 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:28,759 what will happen is that it has all its might, 212 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,279 it has all its glory, it's beautiful because here's this bright, 213 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:35,840 bright star in the morning that announces the sun. 214 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 2: And so this is of. 215 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: Course why Jesus is described as Lucifer in the Bible, 216 00:12:41,279 --> 00:12:44,559 because he plays that role because he is he doesn't 217 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:47,000 take his authority for himself on the earth. He receives 218 00:12:47,039 --> 00:12:49,519 it from the Father and is willing to give it 219 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:53,519 up in order to serve him. And so you can 220 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:57,679 see now that the symbolism of Lucifer is structural, where 221 00:12:57,799 --> 00:13:00,360 the star appears in the sky is very bright and 222 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:03,559 you can see it as you know, let's say a 223 00:13:04,159 --> 00:13:09,360 derived authority. But that derived authority can be good or bad. 224 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:12,720 You know, I've talked about this before. Where a good 225 00:13:12,759 --> 00:13:17,200 example of this is of course Aaron in Scripture, where 226 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:21,399 God chooses Moses and then Moses says, I need someone 227 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:24,240 to represent me, like I need someone who is in 228 00:13:24,279 --> 00:13:26,879 some ways derivative of me, who's going to help me 229 00:13:27,279 --> 00:13:30,679 manifest myself in the world. So God gives Moses Aaron, 230 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,480 and Aaron is a good example of Lucifer, which is 231 00:13:34,519 --> 00:13:37,879 that he has the light to some extent because he's 232 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:42,399 the mouthpiece of Arin. In scripture, it even says God says, 233 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:44,759 I will be your God, Moses, and you will be 234 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:48,879 Aaron's God, you know, like this hierarchy of authority. And 235 00:13:48,919 --> 00:13:52,759 so now Aaron is able to speak. But the problem 236 00:13:52,759 --> 00:13:57,039 with that is that, you know, when he is separated 237 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:01,240 from Moses, he's in danger of thinking that he has 238 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:05,080 access to that authority himself. And then that is as 239 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:07,759 a it's a beautiful symbolism when Aaron makes a golden calf, 240 00:14:07,919 --> 00:14:11,039 because on the one hand, he seems to forget that 241 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:16,120 he is, you know, derivative of Moses, that he receives 242 00:14:16,159 --> 00:14:19,879 his authority from Moses and then through through Moses by 243 00:14:20,039 --> 00:14:23,720 from God. And so he kind of revolts against Moses 244 00:14:23,759 --> 00:14:26,320 in some ways and tries to take the authority for himself. 245 00:14:26,519 --> 00:14:30,480 But then simultaneously what he does is he creates an idol, 246 00:14:30,879 --> 00:14:33,480 which is a cosmic version of what he's doing himself 247 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,639 in regards to Moses. And so this is of course 248 00:14:36,879 --> 00:14:40,279 the reality of Lucifer, the reality of the morning Star, 249 00:14:40,679 --> 00:14:46,440 which is that anything that tries to capture authority for itself, 250 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,840 anything that tries to have an existence on its own 251 00:14:49,919 --> 00:14:54,519 that's not derivative of a higher participation, is in danger 252 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:56,600 of becoming an idol, is in danger of. 253 00:14:56,559 --> 00:14:58,279 Speaker 2: Becoming an opponent. 254 00:14:58,799 --> 00:15:02,679 Speaker 1: And so now the derivative authority, the person that is, 255 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:08,600 you know, a derivative of a higher power, now turns 256 00:15:08,799 --> 00:15:12,120 its arrogance against the power from which it comes and 257 00:15:12,159 --> 00:15:14,440 then becomes an opponent. And in that case, in the 258 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:16,720 case of Erin, when he makes the golden calf, this 259 00:15:16,799 --> 00:15:19,679 is what happens to him. He becomes an opponent. And 260 00:15:19,799 --> 00:15:24,279 so the symbolism is structural. And you can understand that 261 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:28,480 the symbolism is structural so much that if you notice, 262 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:32,039 if you know a little bit about orthodox hymnography, for example, 263 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:37,039 you will see that now that we understand the structural thing, 264 00:15:37,519 --> 00:15:41,600 then we can apply the symbolism of Lucifer to different beings. 265 00:15:41,919 --> 00:15:44,320 So we can apply the symbolism of Lucifer, of course, 266 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:48,759 to the opponent, to the fallen one, because that this 267 00:15:48,879 --> 00:15:51,840 is now the case of the arrogant, you know messenger, 268 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:54,240 the one who takes it for himself. But you can 269 00:15:54,279 --> 00:15:57,399 apply to other people as being the positive messenger, the 270 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:02,320 ones who who step forth and shine brightly but pointing 271 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:06,240 to the light. And so that is why, for example, 272 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:10,720 we use the term morning star to talk about Saint 273 00:16:10,799 --> 00:16:13,639 John the Baptist and so Saint John, the Baptist who 274 00:16:13,639 --> 00:16:16,960 comes before Christ, who announces the coming of the Messiah, 275 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:20,919 who announces the coming Christ, is called in his akathis. 276 00:16:20,919 --> 00:16:26,720 For example, we say, Rejoice, Star illuminating the path that 277 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:32,919 leadeth too Christ. Rejoice, Morning Star of the never setting sun. Rejoice, 278 00:16:32,919 --> 00:16:37,960 worthy lamp of the never waning light. Rejoice Thou who preparest. 279 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 2: The way for the approaching Christ. 280 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:43,279 Speaker 1: Rejoice Thou who appearst as both angel and man. Rejoice, 281 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,919 Great John, prophet, formwarner and Baptist of the Lord. And 282 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,759 so you can see, right the multiple ways that the 283 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:54,200 images use is to help us understand. Because Saint John 284 00:16:54,919 --> 00:16:57,840 walked out in front of Christ, you know, paved the 285 00:16:57,879 --> 00:17:01,480 way for him, opened up the so that Christ could walk, 286 00:17:01,879 --> 00:17:04,640 you know, could be recognized in the world, and is 287 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:09,200 pointing to Christ. Therefore he is lucifer. He is lucifer 288 00:17:09,279 --> 00:17:12,079 in the right way. He is a lucifer in a 289 00:17:12,079 --> 00:17:14,400 way that is not subversive at all, but is actually 290 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:18,920 a normal derivation of participation. But it's not, of course, 291 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:23,359 only Saint John that we've called lucifer, but the Mother 292 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:27,759 of Christ herself, the Theotokas, is also called lucifer. 293 00:17:27,839 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 2: Again in her Akathist. 294 00:17:30,279 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 1: We say to the Mother of God, we say, rejoice, 295 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:38,359 for you carry him who carries all. Rejoice, morning star 296 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:43,400 who brings forth the sun. Rejoice, womb of the divine incarnation. 297 00:17:44,079 --> 00:17:48,440 So here again, because she is the one who, let's say, 298 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:52,000 causes the dawn in a not in a divine way, 299 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:54,680 but in a material way. She's the one who appears 300 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:58,279 before the dawn and has the sun coming up behind 301 00:17:58,319 --> 00:18:01,759 her right and coming through her, you know, like kind 302 00:18:01,799 --> 00:18:04,400 of the idea of a rooster that announces the sunrise, 303 00:18:04,839 --> 00:18:08,519 you know. And so now she's also called Lucifer because 304 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:11,359 she is the one who points to Christ. And so 305 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:15,240 this is a you know, used very well in an 306 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,359 image called the diosis, where you see Christ on the 307 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:22,200 throne in the center, and then to his right you 308 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,200 see Mary, you see the theotokis to his left you 309 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:27,440 see St. John the Baptist and John the Foreigner, and 310 00:18:27,559 --> 00:18:31,000 both of them are pointing to Christ. So this is 311 00:18:31,079 --> 00:18:33,680 their role, both of them playing the role of Lucifer, 312 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:37,119 playing the role of a light that points to the 313 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:40,319 true light. And so this is of course something that 314 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:44,440 we can use to understand everything about the world, everything 315 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:49,680 about reality, which is first of all, that in symbolism, 316 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:52,119 things are structural, and so we always have to be 317 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:56,599 careful when someone tells you, when someone tells you things like, 318 00:18:56,680 --> 00:19:00,000 you know, the pentagram is evil or the hexagram is evil, 319 00:19:00,519 --> 00:19:03,039 or you know, an upside down cross is evil. And 320 00:19:03,079 --> 00:19:08,880 the truth is that these symbols have multiple manifestations, and 321 00:19:09,279 --> 00:19:12,839 if you understand them in the right context, then they 322 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:16,480 are positive, and then sometimes they are negative. And I'm 323 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:19,599 not saying that the term Lucifer is not one which 324 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:22,599 refers to the opponent or the fallen one. Of course 325 00:19:22,599 --> 00:19:25,400 it is, and and you know, and in common parlance, 326 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:30,039 because it has become how can I say this usual 327 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:32,559 to refer to him in that term. I think it 328 00:19:32,599 --> 00:19:36,359 would be dangerous to just casually, you know, refer to 329 00:19:36,519 --> 00:19:38,359 Christ or to the Mother of God or to Saint 330 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:42,400 John as Lucifer, because it would cause confusion. That's not necessary. 331 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:44,599 But when we look at it deeper, we need to 332 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:49,440 understand how structural symbolism works and and and how we need. 333 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,799 Speaker 2: To always have the right uh, you know, we have. 334 00:19:52,799 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: To be able to discern things properly in order to 335 00:19:55,279 --> 00:19:57,599 not be confused and to not be mixed up, and 336 00:19:57,599 --> 00:20:00,839 also to not say silly, stupid things like the Pope 337 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,960 is worshiping the devil because here he is, you know, 338 00:20:04,559 --> 00:20:06,119 singing him to lucifer. 339 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 2: And so in the. 340 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 1: Same way this can help us, of course, understand that 341 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:16,359 everything in the world can be lucifer. Right, Everything that 342 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,400 you encounter in the world can be a small light 343 00:20:19,799 --> 00:20:22,640 which points you to a higher light, either a higher 344 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:26,279 light that's not even God itself, God himself right away, 345 00:20:26,559 --> 00:20:28,920 which is just a higher good that you participate in, 346 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:33,079 something that you know makes that thing shine. 347 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 2: Right. 348 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 1: I've talked about this before, right. A steering wheel, for example, 349 00:20:36,559 --> 00:20:39,759 is a little lucifer of a car, and so a 350 00:20:39,799 --> 00:20:42,640 steering wheel on its own is just a ridiculous object. 351 00:20:42,839 --> 00:20:45,839 But if it's integrated and it's pointing to the higher 352 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:48,079 light that it's participating in, then it can be a 353 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:51,359 small lucifer for a car, and the same thing for 354 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:54,119 the car. So a car in itself, you know, what 355 00:20:54,319 --> 00:20:56,839 is it unless it serves a higher good. If it 356 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:58,880 helps you bring your child to the hospital, if it 357 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,279 helps carry you to work, carried to church, or help 358 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:03,720 you see your friends, then it can be us a 359 00:21:03,799 --> 00:21:08,079 lucifer for a higher good, a higher participation and so 360 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:10,200 this is of course, you know, a good way to 361 00:21:10,319 --> 00:21:13,640 understand how symbolism works. But then also even how the 362 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,279 symbolism of the morning star and the bride star, which 363 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:21,559 points to or precedes the higher light or the bigger light, 364 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:27,400 is actually an image of symbolism itself. And as we 365 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,039 move forward, we can of course can help us to 366 00:21:30,079 --> 00:21:34,279 not be naive and to not say silly things when 367 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,559 we talk about symbolism. And so I hope this has 368 00:21:37,599 --> 00:21:41,480 been useful, and just to help you see, one of 369 00:21:41,519 --> 00:21:46,319 the biggest lucifers, let's say, in scripture in the New Testament, 370 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:50,119 and one which is related to the double symbolism of 371 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,640 board the messenger or the one who's derivative of a 372 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:57,079 higher power but then can also become an opponent, is 373 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:01,279 of course the symbolism of Saint Peter. And then we'll 374 00:22:01,279 --> 00:22:04,319 look at that the double symbolism of Saint Peter in 375 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:09,680 my next interpretation of symbolism. There's also another mystery about 376 00:22:09,759 --> 00:22:12,720 this whole image of the morning star or lucifer of 377 00:22:12,799 --> 00:22:15,400 Venus rising up in the sky, and this is related 378 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:19,920 to the fact that in fact Venus is sometimes during 379 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,599 the year the morning star, but then sometimes during the 380 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:26,440 year is the evening star. And there is also a 381 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:31,920 movement of Venus in the heavens in which it retrogrades, right, 382 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,839 which is that it moves in a certain direction, you know, 383 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,559 and then at some point during the year it starts 384 00:22:37,599 --> 00:22:41,079 to move in the opposite direction. And you know, this 385 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,960 is related to the symbolism of Lucifer very much. So 386 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,519 you can understand that when Venus is the evening star, 387 00:22:48,799 --> 00:22:52,079 it shines brightly after the sunset, and so you see 388 00:22:52,079 --> 00:22:55,200 it appearing shining brightly after the sunset, and when Venus 389 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,359 is the morning star, you see it shining brightly before 390 00:22:58,440 --> 00:22:59,039 the sunset. 391 00:22:59,319 --> 00:23:00,160 Speaker 2: So this is of course or. 392 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:06,359 Speaker 1: A good example of understanding the relationship between Venus and 393 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,960 the sun and also the relationship of different authorities. And 394 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,640 so this I take from someone named Tom Brie, which 395 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,079 you can look up if you're interested. He is someone 396 00:23:15,079 --> 00:23:18,720 who's quite good at architectural symbolism and cosmic symbolism as well. 397 00:23:19,319 --> 00:23:22,599 But he gave me this insight, which is that so 398 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:27,200 you can understand the Venus the morning star and evening 399 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:31,200 star as both one that comes up before the sun 400 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:34,240 or one that comes down, you know, in the evening 401 00:23:34,519 --> 00:23:38,000 comes down after the sun. And so these two aspects 402 00:23:38,079 --> 00:23:42,240 of Venus and going up and going down, right, so 403 00:23:42,279 --> 00:23:44,799 you can understand it, for example, as rising up into 404 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,759 heaven or then falling down into the underworld. 405 00:23:47,839 --> 00:23:49,160 Speaker 2: Right, So these would be the two. 406 00:23:49,039 --> 00:23:51,799 Speaker 1: Aspects of this star, where on the one hand it 407 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:53,680 rises up and on the other hand it goes down. 408 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,400 And you know his insight, which was wonderful, is that 409 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,519 when you think of the opponent or the evil one, 410 00:24:00,559 --> 00:24:03,119 and you think of Christ, what you see are are 411 00:24:03,799 --> 00:24:08,039 the same symbolism, but in the opposite direction, that is, 412 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,400 or flipped. One flips the symbolism of the other, which 413 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,279 is that Christ is the one that is willing to 414 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:19,400 descend into hell, descend into death, willfully right give up 415 00:24:19,559 --> 00:24:22,400 in that way. And because he's willing to do that, 416 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:27,400 then he is actually raised up and made the highest 417 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:31,000 right and becomes the highest thing. And that's how it's 418 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,720 described in Gospel and in Saint Paul, right that because 419 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:35,799 he gave up and because he was able willing to 420 00:24:35,799 --> 00:24:40,000 empty himself, therefore it's it's fine that he is now 421 00:24:40,079 --> 00:24:42,640 raised up because he's not in danger of becoming a 422 00:24:43,319 --> 00:24:47,039 becoming a kind of loose an opponent character. Right, he 423 00:24:47,319 --> 00:24:49,119 is the son of the father in every way and 424 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,240 does the will of his father. But the devil, right, 425 00:24:52,279 --> 00:24:57,000 the opponent, the satan, the evil one, you know, he 426 00:24:57,039 --> 00:24:59,799 does the opposite move, which is that he raises himself 427 00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:03,359 up up, And because he raises himself up, he's cast 428 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,039 down into. 429 00:25:04,759 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 2: Hell and into hades. 430 00:25:05,759 --> 00:25:07,839 Speaker 1: Right, if you look at the mythology of the devil, right, 431 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,680 he's thrown down into hades. And so it's really interesting 432 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,599 because you can apply that, of course again to any 433 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:18,279 form of authority. You know. That is that if you 434 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,519 are humble, and you you play your role in the 435 00:25:22,559 --> 00:25:26,000 best way you can, and you you give up, you know, 436 00:25:26,039 --> 00:25:28,400 the authority, to the to the reason why you're there 437 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,759 in the first place, then you will be raised up. 438 00:25:32,279 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 2: But if you raise yourself up, then you'll be cast down. 439 00:25:34,799 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: Christ says that all the time, right, he says, when 440 00:25:37,279 --> 00:25:40,359 you go somewhere, sit in the back, you know, and 441 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,079 then if you're willing to sit in the back, then 442 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,880 you'll be recognized if you're if you're good, like, if 443 00:25:45,079 --> 00:25:48,200 if you're someone who's actually shining, then you'll be recognized 444 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,480 by the people and you'll be asked to come to 445 00:25:50,519 --> 00:25:53,079 the front. But if you come and you boast, and 446 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:55,960 you and you, you try to take it all on yourself, 447 00:25:56,279 --> 00:25:58,640 then you are in constant danger of falling and of 448 00:25:58,759 --> 00:26:01,880 being thrown back to the back. And so that's another 449 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,559 example of how the symbolism of the morning Star and 450 00:26:04,599 --> 00:26:07,640 the symbolism of Venus is very complex and subtle. So 451 00:26:07,839 --> 00:26:09,960 thank you everybody for your time, thank you for your support, 452 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:11,519 and talk to you very soon.