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Speaker 1: Understand the thinking atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol,

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an idea.

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Speaker 2: The population of atheists this country is going through the.

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Speaker 1: Rule, rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If I

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tell the truth, it's because I tell the truth, not because.

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Speaker 2: I put my hand on a book and made a.

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Speaker 1: Wish and working together for a more rational world.

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Speaker 2: Take the risk of thinking. Feel so much more happiness.

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Truth Fusian wisdom will come to you that way.

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Speaker 1: Assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking. This is the

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Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews.

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Speaker 2: Post election, I wanted to talk to my friends and

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the creator of the Thinking Ispower dot com websites, Melanieteresa King.

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I know I had you on earlier this year. I've

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interviewed you on video, but I just needed to talk

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to somebody who is also Do I call you a

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de escalator these days? I mean, are you trying to

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lower the temps out there?

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Speaker 3: I try really hard to communicate important concepts, basic critical

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thinking concepts, and it's really hard to get people to

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hear what you're saying when they're triggered. So I do

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try and avoid triggering.

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Speaker 2: Hang on hang on, Melanie, I get hung up on

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the word trigger. Maybe we can come back. What do

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you mean by trigger?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, when people are emotionally I need another word besides trigger,

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you'll go ahead emokely activated. So like when we're angry,

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when we're afraid, when we're these emotions activate the basil

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part of our brain that goes into it's called the

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four FS fight, flight, freeze, or mating. And when we're

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in those emotions, we're not able to think critically. I

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use what I call a critical thinking training wheels approach,

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which is start with easier issues to help people practice

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the skills so that hopefully they graduate to the more

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difficult ones. But if I just turn them off right away,

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then they're going to shut down and not hear what

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I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well, angry and afraid sums me up. I'm having

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trouble sleeping. Anybody else having trouble sleep?

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Speaker 3: Now?

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Speaker 2: I've struggled with insomnia my whole life. A true story

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for the I mean, this will be interesting for those

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who've been following my journey. But I told some of

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my dearest friends that I've been struggling. I'm wake up stressed.

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My mind is like a spinning hard drive. And so

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we were at dinner and one of them handed across

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the table a gummy and said, take this.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: I don't think this is legal, but I don't think

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anybody really cares, right, So it's totally legal, is it? Where?

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Where is it legal?

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Speaker 3: Massachusetts?

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Speaker 1: Oh?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well Oklahoma is behind every other part of the

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country in almost every other way. So we'll get there,

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but it'll probably be, you know, twenty thirty five. But

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she's got a license, and she's like on Gambian Gammy.

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Try it. And I was very hesitant because I've never

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done anything. I'm such a baby in this world. But

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finally I thought, okay, I've got to get some rest,

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and so I I I cut it in half and

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I took it. It was one of the most stressful, sleepless,

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fitful nights of my life. It was terrible. And I

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guess for some people this is a thing. Do you

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have any experiment. I'm not mean to put you on

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the spot, but like when people say I tried this,

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this just makes sense to you. Melanie.

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Speaker 3: Okay, first, I can't wait to meet Natalie because I'm

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going to ask her about this story.

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Speaker 2: I need the behind. Okay, she paid the price because

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as I was over there flipping and I looked like

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I was being basted. I mean, I'm just over and

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over and over and over, and she kept waking up

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and she was so patient, but I could see the

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irritation because she desperately needed her rest. But yes, you

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will meet, you will talk, you can share stories. So

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what do you do, PRIs Have you been worried? Like,

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has worried hits you, concern, anxiety? Does any of that

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resonate with you.

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Speaker 3: It's been an interesting process for me because twenty sixteen

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was very difficult for me. That election I took really hard,

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and this one I'm not taking as hard. And I

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think it's partly because I didn't allow myself to hope.

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At least that's what I'm telling myself, but I'm not

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really sure about that. Since this election, I have I

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felt more of an urge to try and not only

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understand people and why they voted the way that they did,

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and try to talk to hate using these words but them,

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but also us, like what is motivating us? What might

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we be able to do better? Because at the end

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of the day, all I can do is change my

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actions and hope that I'm using my actions in a

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positive way.

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Speaker 2: So I'm over here spinning like a drive shaft and

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you're sleeping the sleep of angels or what's the hell

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by the way, confession. And I don't do this very

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often because I think it's a bad habit. But last

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night it was desperate. It's like one in the morning,

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and I got up and I took some Nike Will

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and then I crashed and dreamed. I was playing tennis

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with Steven Spielberg, so I don't know what they put

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in Nike Will. I was on the tennis court. I

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was playing tennis with Steven Spielberg. Woke up this morning

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and had to what the hell moments? Anyway, what I'm.

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Speaker 3: Getting there is that you have an issue with substances.

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You don't handle them very well.

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Speaker 2: No. I literally I've never been drunk in my whole life,

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and I'll tell you I'm a little afraid of alcohol.

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And this is probably because of my upbringing, which was puritan.

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If we'd had a beer in the fridge, Mom would

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have had an intervention. She would have flipped. This is

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how bad it was. We were going on a fishing

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trip when I was maybe fifteen, and we needed a

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cooler to put the sandwiches in, and so Dad went

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down to the convenience store and he bought a couple

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bags of ice and the only cooler that they had

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it was a styrofoam cooler and it had Budweiser on

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the side. It was the only one they had. It

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was a Budweiser cooler. Mom refused to go on the

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trip unless that was covered up, and so Dad had

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to take strips of tape to cover up. So this

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is how puritan my upbringing was. And I guess some

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of that just echoes into me. And now I worry

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because I'm a control freak. I don't want to lose control.

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I think if I have more than two glasses of whatever,

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I might wake up naked at the zoo. And this

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scares me, Melanie, you know, it scares me such.

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Speaker 3: A bad thing that might be a fun experience.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, this has gone south. Okay, I was

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going to ask you another question before we got further

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into beliefs, and I'm going to talk about some of

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Jonathan Height's work and is it hate or Height? I

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always read it, HII DT Are you one blue Sky? Yeah?

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Have you migrated over there to that social media platform.

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Speaker 3: No, I'm not there, and it's mostly because I am

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weary of adding another social media platform. I'm kind of

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full at this point, and I adding something else just

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seems like more work to do. Facebook is my biggest ay,

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and it's a good place for me to post kind

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of content that I want to post. I want to

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send people to my website. I want to do longer

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form content. I want to post videos. I'm trying to

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figure out Instagram.

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Speaker 2: I'm on TikTok, but just you know, I post on there,

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but it's the wild West. So I'm still kind of

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figuring that out. But the claim is, here's an example.

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I've got somebody who shows up in the comment section

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of my latest speech that I posted. It's called the

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brick Wall Brain. Why are in facts changing minds? And

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they are critical of the content and they are not happy.

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And then they post and post and post and comment

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and comment and comment, and most of it just seems

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it's not necessarily trolling, but they're sending, not receiving. And

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then it's debate me. You know, I'm calling you out.

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Are you a coward? Kind of thing? And I just

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got tired of them suffocating the comments, and I blocked

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them from the channel. So now the claim is I'm

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either a free speech animy or I want to live

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in a bubble where everybody only agrees with me. Is

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that person right?

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Speaker 3: So people on one end of the spectrum are one

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end of the bell curve don't really need me, and

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people on the other end of the bell curve are

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probably not reachable, at least with my time, energy and

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skill set. I am not saying I'm writing anyone off,

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but I am saying, with the amount of time it

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takes me to reach them, I could be much more

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productive by trying to get to the normals. The free

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speech argument is an interesting one because that tends to

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that comes back to the legal argument, and by free speech,

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that's a government like if the government's not putting you

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in jail, it's not a free speech concern. I just

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don't want you polluting my page and my comments with

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bad faith arguments, and so the rules on my side

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that I try to enforce. I want to make a

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community where people feel free to learn, to ask good

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faith questions and to engage in productive dialogue. And I

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want to model that for people and the trolls that

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come in with those kinds of concerned. They are concerned,

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you know what I mean. They're not there for actually learning.

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They have their mind made up and they're just trying

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to take your time and energy. And so I don't

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think that that argument holds must wait on Twitter. That's

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what I find a lot of these days, is that

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people aren't there to actually engage in a way where

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they're trying to learn. To be fair. I have never

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found Twitter that for me, Like I don't have anywhere

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near as number followers as you do. I've used Twitter

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mostly to connect with people, and I'm going to miss

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that aspect of Twitter, but it's not ever really been

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a place where I feel like I've reached the masses

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with my kind of message. For me, that's really Facebook.

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And I might add for TikTok. My following is still

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pretty small on TikTok, but oh my god, I love TikTok.

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TikTok is the best play Like there's the CAF videos

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on there are epic, like they're truly spectacular. I'm trying

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to communicate good messages on TikTok and try to get

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people to learn, and I will freely admit that when

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I go to TikTok, I don't go to learn. I

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go to be entertained, And so that's the problem on

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something like TikTok. Yeah, I wouldn't necessarily watch my own content,

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but please do. If you're on TikTok, please follow me.

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Speaker 2: Oh, Natalie's got us hooked on something. I don't even

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know what platform it's on, but it's a woman who

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has two dogs and she places them behind a desk

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with plates on them, and then she just puts various

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foods on the plate and the dogs decide whether or

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not they're going to eat them. I haven't seen that.

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Speaker 3: It's so good.

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Speaker 2: It's sixty seconds so or they turn their noses up

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and they WinCE their eyes until the next goodie comes along.

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I don't know. I can't stop watching. There's another one, Kiki.

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This spider Monkey still spider Monkey rescue and a diaper

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runs around somebody's house. Maybe maybe we need that right,

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Maybe we need to diss connect just a little bit.

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Let me ask you about this. I had somebody on

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that speech that I gave, and I think this is valid.

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I was talking about de escalation. I use the line

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I'm going to try in my life whenever possible, and

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I throw the asterisk whenever possible, and it's not always,

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but whenever possible. I want to be like my dog.

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I want to bark less and wag more. In the

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one on ones, I'm not talking about the Macro. I'm

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not what I'm going hard at Marjorie Taylor Green and

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all these people. And the response is, and I think

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it's valid, but the response is, I'm not going to

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play nice with the arsonists right the house is on fire.

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I'm not going to go in with a soft voice

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and pat him on the head. At this point, it's

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war and it needs to be war. And I'm not

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convinced they're wrong. If they said this on your page, Melody,

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I'm curious how you'd handle it.

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Speaker 3: And I have similar backgrounds, we've both radically altered our worldviews.

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Would you say that's fair?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, almost a one eighty yeah.

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Speaker 3: Same here. And I think about the person that I

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used to be and the ways that I might try

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and reach her, and I'm not sure what would work.

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But I am freely damn sure what wouldn't work, And

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that is calling her evil or stupid, mocking her. I'm

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at a point where I don't disagree the house is

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on fire, but I don't think the answer to that

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is to demonize people. People have a lot of reasons.

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If we circle back to the election for a second,

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people have a lot of reasons for voting the way

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that they do. Some of them I probably would put

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into that corner that far into the spectrum that the

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bell curve of just being truly awful people. But I

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don't think everyone is, and the way to reach them

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isn't by lumping them all together. And so the only

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thing back to the only thing that I know how

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to do is to control my actions and behaviors and

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try to model what I think is the most productive

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way forward, because at the end of the day, I

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have to live with myself. I don't know if I

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can make any changes, but I have to live with myself.

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Those commenters who come on my site who are just

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throwing grenades and trying to when I engage with them

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and I realize that it's starting to make me look bad,

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the person I'm engaging with is probably not going to

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change their mind, but everybody else who is watching I

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might be able to reach and when I represent myself

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that way, then I don't feel good about what I'm doing.

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Speaker 2: Given that the show is named trigger Warnings, we are

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going to get into that subject and more in just

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a second. Hang on, Thanks for your supports as a patron.

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If you enjoy what you hear and you want to

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support the broadcast, it makes a huge difference. Patreon dot

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00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:23,559
com slash Seth Andrews Continuing now my conversation with Melody

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triesa king of thinking is power dot com. I am

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writing a speech and I've almost thrown it in the

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trash a dozen times about a lot of the stuff

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that we get wrong in my own tribe in a

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meeting of my people of shared values, whether it's atheists

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or whether it's liberal or humanist, seculars, whatever, we like

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to think that the problem is always them. I have

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seen an intolerance of self reflection, certainly an intolerance of

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criticism in my own tribe. If somehow we're not human beings,

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And what I often will hear is, well, why in

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the world will we take a breath and even look

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at us when they are so much worse. It's like

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a cheat to try to self improve, and we take

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all the shortcuts and this is bringing me back to

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the Jonathan Heighte analogy of the elephant and the writer.

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But we see something that validates us, and we are

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almost just as quick to like and share without fact checking.

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There was this Stephen King, suppose it's Stephen King quote

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that said Fox News did to our parents what our

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parents were afraid video games were going to do to us,

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and everybody then memed it. Then there's a picture Stephen

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King with the quotations and there's his name at the bottom. Well,

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I did a thirty second search. He shared it, but

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it was originated by somebody else. Stephen King didn't actually

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originally say it. So I go and I say, actually,

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Stephen King didn't originate. He's not the source. And people say, well,

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it's still true, like there's an immediate deflection. There was

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another Stephen King related one where they said Elon Musk

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had kicked him off of X because Stephen King had

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joke that Elon was the first lady in the wake

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of the election, and he's been banned, and people were indignant.

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They're like, Elon Musk was a free speech absolutist and

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look at his hypocrisy, and they soapboxed and soapbox. I

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took thirty seconds. Stephen King never said it, he was

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never banned. It was apparently somebody else, or it was

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all satire. We need jerk, I think as quickly as

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anybody else. But when I say this, and this is

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true in the atheist verse, whenever we make bad arguments,

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or we do something that speaks to bias, or we

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just get in a hurry, people are intolerant. They don't

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want to talk about it. Can we talk about reflecting

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on our own tribes and why that's not a cheat?

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I need validation.

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Speaker 3: Gosh, I heard so much in there that I related

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to I personally. Have you seen the There's a news

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clip supposedly from Trump in the I think it's the

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late nineties, and it's from People magazine where he says

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that if I were to run for president, I'd run

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as Republican. Yeah, because they're the stupidest voters in the

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world or something.

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Speaker 2: Oh, that's been memed all over the place.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, not true, not true, completely fake. I always use

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it when I present about fake news because the point

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is when we tend to fall for things that aren't true,

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primarily when they confirm our biases, like Oh yeah, that

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makes sense that he would say that when it triggers

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our emotions. There's that word again, So it makes us laugh,

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it makes us feel oh, self righteous, angry, afraid, and

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when we hear it repeated, So amongst left echo chambers,

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it goes around a lot, but it's not true. I

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tend to show it alongside the There was a news

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story that popped up around the same time, and it

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was Pope Francis shocks the world and endorses Donald Trump.

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This was in twenty sixteen and again totally fake, but

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that went around right leaning things because again it seemed true.

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It confirmed biases, and it triggered emotions. We can all

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fall for things that aren't true because of ourselves, our

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own vulnerabilities. They make us feel like, yeah, we're right

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about this, and look how stupid. The other side is

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people think misinformation is an other people problem. Other people

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are stupid and other people will fall for misinformation. But

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I am really smart and I wouldn't fall for that.

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So I'm a biologist and the single most unifying theory

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in all of the life sciences is evolution. Evolution helps

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us understand the unity and diversity of life, why things

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are similar because they have a common ancestor, and why

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they're different because of different selection pressures and genetic drift

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and so on that led them to different evolutionary endpoints. Okay,

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all that's to say, my tribe generally accepts evolution, but

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it's not because they understand it. It's because their tribe

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accepts it. So when we look down on people who

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don't hold those same beliefs, it's not because we're really

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smart and because we have an understanding of science that

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you know, the stupid people don't. It's just because our

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tribe happens to believe those things. But there's absolutely zero

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chance that our tribe is right about everything. So tribal beliefs,

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though I'm on a rant here now, seth, you're gonna

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have to stop me. Go ahead, because part of tribal

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beliefs is that it's in us in them in order

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for them, for there to be an us, there has

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to be them. When we're coming to our beliefs, one

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of the shortcuts that we take is what do the

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people around us believe? We know shockingly little about most

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of our beliefs. There's a great concept in psychology called

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the illusion of explanatory depth, which is, if you want

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to know how much you actually know, try to explain

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it like, okay, so how does evolution work? Define evolution

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for me? Start at basics. What are the mechanisms of evolution?

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Speaker 1: Now?

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Speaker 3: Woul those different mechanisms work in different populations? Address these

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various misconcepts. Most people who aren't scientists but are in

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that tribe would struggle with those questions. Yet they're really

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pleased with themselves about their accepting the science. But we

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need to realize that we're prone to the same kinds

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of thinking errors that the other side is. We just

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happen to be in a different tribe that aligns with

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reality on this particular issue, but we could be wrong

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about other things. So having empathy for the other side

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starts with understanding ourselves and recognizing our own limitations, having

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the humility to realize we're not as smart as we

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think we are, and we're probably not right about everything,

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And the other side isn't necessarily stupid. They just maybe

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have a different worldview and see the world differently than

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you do. I'm going to try and stop, please interrupt.

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Speaker 2: I'm reminded of this is a popular acronym atheist, a thoughtful, honest, ethical, intelligent,

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skeptical thinker. It's popular, it's been flying around for decades.

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It's not true I'm an atheist. This means I do

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not believe in God's any God anywhere. Doesn't determine anything

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else about me. It doesn't mean I'm intelligent, doesn't mean

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I'm skeptic, doesn't talk about my capacity for understanding. It

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doesn't tell you whether I'm a good person or not.

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And yet we sort of lead with this as frustrating

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as religion is a mental illness. Ah oh, I tell you.

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And this is why I've been thinking about doing this

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presentation next year, is because I'm like, just stop. Every

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time we even for the most noble of reasons, even

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if we want to help in this world, every time

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we lead with an argument that is a bad argument.

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We are shoveling the ground beneath our own feet, and

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we're making it easier for others. Then they're not just

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misrepresenting us, they can actually use the words that we say.

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We're destroying our own position. It's so frustrating, and we

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as atheists, and I'm a frontline atheist, I'd like to

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think I have the equity to talk about this. We

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are not immune from saying dumb shit, right should I

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say dumb shit? We are not immune from having misguided

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ideas based on identity, beliefs and my asses. Okay, fine,

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there you go, Melanie, take that and run with it.

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Speaker 3: So with as much as I'd like to take the

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higher ground, I don't think it applies to cursing. And perfectly.

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Speaker 2: My Puritan mother used to cuss once every six months,

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and her face would always twist up like one of

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those trees and the Wizard of Oz, like it's what

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she really wanted to say. She'd be like, she gets

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so frustrated, and then we would just feel victorious, like, yes,

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we got her to crack, and then she would apologize

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and pray and all those things. But I thought, you know,

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let it out, right, let it out. Sometimes you need

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to say the word. Go ahead, Melanie.

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Speaker 3: There was a study somewhere along the way. I don't

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care who did it, I don't care if it's been replicated,

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but it basically said that people who cuss are smarter,

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and I am going to go with it.

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Speaker 2: Go with that, yeah, go with that.

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Speaker 3: So if we still go back to the heights, writer

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and the elephants. I think this is so helpful in

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understanding ourselves. Jonathan Height is a psychologist and has produced

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a lot of interesting work around why we believe what

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we believe, and he has an analogy called the l

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Elephant and the Writer that I think is a great

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way to help us understand our thinking. It's a dual

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processing theory, which is there are various ones, like Daniel

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Kahneman famously had a system one system too. I just

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from my students, I find that systems are less easy

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to relate to than elephants and writers. So the elephant

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in the writer is imagine in your head you have

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an elephant and then you have a writer on top

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of the elephant. So the writer up here in the

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prefrontal cortex. It's the part of the brain that you

439
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think of as you It's the part that can think

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critically and analytically, and can evaluate evidence and come to

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a logical conclusion and make sound arguments and so on.

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But it sits on top of an elephant. And back

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here I'm at the amygdala. The elephant is the part

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of the brain that is emotional and biased and tribal.

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It's motivated by its desires, It uses what it already knows,

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and it jumps to a conclusion to save energy. Right,

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it takes a lot of work to think through things.

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So a lot of the times what happens is our

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brain is filtering information. It comes in here, and then

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the elephant goes, yet, so this is true, and the

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writer instead of reflecting and going, well is this true?

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Let's think about it. Let's evaluate the evidence. How logical

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is this argument? It goes, yeah, you know what that

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sounds right, let's go with it. And then if asked,

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the writer goes, well, here are all the reasons why

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the elephant is right. So the elephant and the writer

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helps us understand that the vast majority of the time,

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most of our thinking is blow the level of consciousness.

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It is automatic and it is not based on an

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objective evaluation of evidence. So it jumps to a conclusion,

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and the writer acts more like our elephant's lawyer or

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it's pr department. It works to find justifications for what

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the elephant wants to believe. So seth, I think that

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my writer is talking to your writer, but actually my

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writer is motivated by my elephant, and so is yours.

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So if I want to understand my own thinking. I

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need to realize what my motivations are. Is this a

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tribal belief? Are my biases leading me here? Is this

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something I really want or don't want to believe? Basically,

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am I using my writer to find justifications or am

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I actually thinking through this?

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Speaker 2: Now?

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Speaker 3: The problem is this takes a lot of energy in time,

474
00:27:37,079 --> 00:27:38,640
so we don't do this most of the time. We

475
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:40,880
have to turn this on. But I need to understand

476
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:42,640
this about myself, and if I'm trying to have a

477
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:46,319
productive conversation with you, I need to realize that your

478
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:51,720
elephant is also leading your writer. So I think that

479
00:27:52,279 --> 00:27:56,400
if I'm giving your writer facts and good arguments, that

480
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,960
it should convince you. But it's possible that your reason

481
00:28:00,519 --> 00:28:06,200
is not objective. There's something motivating it. So having a

482
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:11,960
more productive conversation means having an elephant conversation. What are

483
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,839
my motivations and biases and desires and so the same

484
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:19,359
thing for you? What kinds of things can we agree on?

485
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,880
There's probably more than we think, and then working together

486
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:30,400
to try and understand reality better. Our writers aren't necessarily

487
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:35,960
going to war here. Productive conversations means understanding the motivations

488
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:40,000
behind our thinking and trying to work together to come

489
00:28:40,039 --> 00:28:42,480
to a better conclusion than we would have been able

490
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:43,319
to individually.

491
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,559
Speaker 2: Is that the difference between going out to find out

492
00:28:46,599 --> 00:28:49,160
if you're right or going out to be proven right.

493
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a lot in there. Once our writer has

494
00:28:53,519 --> 00:28:56,359
decided that it's right, it tends to find more evidence

495
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,839
that it's right. The problem is, if we want to

496
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:00,799
find evidence that we're right, we're always going to be

497
00:29:00,799 --> 00:29:03,920
able to do it, especially these days, Like you go online,

498
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:05,880
you can find anything to support what you want to believe.

499
00:29:06,599 --> 00:29:09,200
A better way of trying to figure out if your

500
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,000
belief is true isn't try to find evidence to support it,

501
00:29:13,039 --> 00:29:15,279
is to try to prove it wrong. Don't try to

502
00:29:15,319 --> 00:29:18,599
confirm it, try to disconfirm it. If it's true, it

503
00:29:18,599 --> 00:29:19,839
will withstand the scrutiny.

504
00:29:20,119 --> 00:29:22,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that gets us into what source do I

505
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:27,200
use to find legitimate criticism. If I'm reading an article

506
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,839
about evolution and I type it into a Google search

507
00:29:30,839 --> 00:29:35,640
engine and I end up at evolution News, which looks legitimate,

508
00:29:36,079 --> 00:29:39,759
they're actually an apologetics website. So now I've got a

509
00:29:39,799 --> 00:29:43,240
sourcing problem. Who's credible, who's not? Who's an expert who's

510
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,640
not and does that get me into the argument from authority?

511
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,720
There's another broad question, but that's just what we're doing today.

512
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:51,759
How would you address it?

513
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:56,319
Speaker 3: No, I love this because so when I teach critical thinking,

514
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,240
and so I teach a class that I designed to

515
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:02,480
teach critical thinkings, information literacy, and science literacy, and importantly

516
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,839
it is in that order because if we first don't

517
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:10,839
understand our own motivations. For example, previous me did not

518
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,680
want to accept evolution. It was part of my tribal identity.

519
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,720
If I accepted evolution, that means that God wasn't real.

520
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,440
It would mean that my special place in the universe

521
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,759
isn't real. It would mean that my entire worldview would

522
00:30:26,799 --> 00:30:29,559
start to crumble, like if I went along that path,

523
00:30:29,759 --> 00:30:33,240
which means that if I want to understand if evolution

524
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:37,319
is true, I need to understand my own thinking. What

525
00:30:37,519 --> 00:30:41,119
do I want to believe or not want to believe?

526
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,720
And then I need to be able to subject those

527
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:50,200
beliefs to actual scrutiny. Critical thinking means that we have

528
00:30:50,279 --> 00:30:53,480
to be honest with ourselves, because if we're not. And

529
00:30:53,519 --> 00:30:56,440
I go to information, I go to Google, and I

530
00:30:56,519 --> 00:31:00,640
use Google to I can use Google as a search

531
00:31:00,759 --> 00:31:04,279
tool to confirm any belief that I want. If I

532
00:31:04,319 --> 00:31:09,160
don't first understand myself, I'm going to use information and

533
00:31:09,279 --> 00:31:12,960
search engines as a tool to confirm what I already

534
00:31:13,119 --> 00:31:17,519
believe or what I want to believe. So understanding information

535
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:23,359
and using information in a productive and objective way means

536
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:28,720
understanding myself first. And if I do that and then

537
00:31:28,839 --> 00:31:32,759
understand the various ways that some ways of knowing are

538
00:31:32,799 --> 00:31:36,119
more reliable than others, for example, the process of science

539
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:43,519
versus individual experiences, then I can use information define sources

540
00:31:43,559 --> 00:31:47,559
that are using that process of science to objectively evaluate

541
00:31:47,599 --> 00:31:50,599
those claims and what is the best available evidence at

542
00:31:50,599 --> 00:31:54,400
any given time. Let me just bookend this by explaining

543
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,079
one of my pet peeves, which is people who call

544
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:02,279
themselves independent thinkers, But what they really mean is they

545
00:32:02,319 --> 00:32:04,440
often come to my site and they'll say something like,

546
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,559
so you're saying, I just trust what experts have to say,

547
00:32:07,799 --> 00:32:10,079
and I'm an independent thinker, So I'm going to be

548
00:32:10,119 --> 00:32:13,759
able to evaluate this information of about myself. An independent thinker,

549
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:19,640
A real independent thinker understands themselves. They are aware of

550
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:23,160
what they want to believe and what they don't want

551
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,839
to believe. They're aware of the ways that their perceptions

552
00:32:26,839 --> 00:32:31,079
can fool themselves, They're aware of how their biases can

553
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,559
lead them astray, and they're actually in a good faith

554
00:32:34,599 --> 00:32:39,000
attempt trying to find the truth. So they are also

555
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:45,279
aware of how various systems of understanding the world, like science,

556
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:50,200
is a process of evaluating collectively evaluating information and evidence

557
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,880
so that we reach a better conclusion than we would

558
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,720
have been able to on our own. The point is

559
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,000
people tend to use this idea of an independent thinker

560
00:32:59,319 --> 00:33:05,079
to discount what the best available evidence has shown us

561
00:33:05,079 --> 00:33:07,880
to be true, because what they really want to do

562
00:33:08,319 --> 00:33:11,519
is use their biases to lead them to a conclusion

563
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,759
and then find reasons to justify them having that conclusion.

564
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,599
That is actually the exact opposite of an independent thinker.

565
00:33:20,079 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 2: I've heard flat earthers say, it's my skepticism that brought

566
00:33:24,039 --> 00:33:27,640
me to flat Earth. It's my distrust of you know,

567
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:32,400
authority taking the party line, listening to the authority with

568
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:34,200
the capital I mean, you can do that with anything

569
00:33:34,279 --> 00:33:36,640
denying the moon landing or nine to eleven truth or

570
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,759
anti vax you know, I'm just uber skeptical. Look at me,

571
00:33:42,039 --> 00:33:44,920
short break, I'll be right back with the final segment

572
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:54,000
of our conversation in just a second, talking here with

573
00:33:54,119 --> 00:33:58,039
Melanie Teresa King. She is an educator a teacher. She

574
00:33:58,279 --> 00:34:02,200
is also the admin stand creator of Thinking is Power

575
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:06,079
dot com. I want to come all the way back

576
00:34:06,119 --> 00:34:08,599
around to something to a word we use near the beginning,

577
00:34:08,599 --> 00:34:12,400
because I want your take on it again. I'm going

578
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,000
to attempt nuance and I'm just going to prepare myself

579
00:34:15,079 --> 00:34:18,320
my inbox or what's coming. But we use the word trigger.

580
00:34:19,079 --> 00:34:21,280
I wrote about this in one of my books. I

581
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:24,119
can't remember which one, but I was talking about how

582
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:29,000
we have always had content warnings when we get into

583
00:34:29,079 --> 00:34:31,519
really sensitive stuff. I mean, if you're going to watch

584
00:34:31,559 --> 00:34:35,280
a movie, it will say this film contains violence and

585
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:40,159
nudity and language, and I think even smoking. They say, oh, warning,

586
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,079
someone smokes in this film, which of maybe a bit much.

587
00:34:43,119 --> 00:34:46,559
I think when we beat content warnings all the time, Hey,

588
00:34:46,599 --> 00:34:48,679
heads up, this is kind of heavy, and I think

589
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,199
that's great, and prepare your audience. I'll do it when

590
00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:54,119
I'm giving a speech. If I'm showing a medical photo

591
00:34:54,159 --> 00:34:55,639
and I'm like, now, this has got to be intense, but

592
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,400
check this out, and that gives them a second to

593
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:00,840
prepare themselves in their brain and kind of blink if

594
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:04,679
they don't want to look. But I worry that in

595
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:09,039
the era of trigger warnings, we are now trying to

596
00:35:09,079 --> 00:35:11,920
make sure that no one else around us feels uncomfortable,

597
00:35:12,679 --> 00:35:16,639
when discomfort might be my intention, like I want you

598
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:21,480
to feel uncomfortable, or you need to feel this particular emotion,

599
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,559
or it's not my job to bubble wrap the world,

600
00:35:25,199 --> 00:35:29,840
because then it becomes maladaptive. If you aren't developing the

601
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:33,960
skill set, the tools, etc. To engage in a world

602
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,440
that is unfair and may not care we exist and

603
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,679
all those things, then you are not really adapting to life.

604
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,320
And then people come back and say, how dare you?

605
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:47,480
Marginalized groups and people who are here seriously affected, whether

606
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:51,320
they're nero, divergent, etc. They need us to give trigger warnings.

607
00:35:51,559 --> 00:35:54,599
It's a mess. I don't know. Maybe this is an

608
00:35:54,599 --> 00:35:56,960
example of that line I gave in the speech. More

609
00:35:57,039 --> 00:36:01,280
than one thing can be true at the same diet, Melanie,

610
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:05,280
trace it King. I just like saying your name altogether

611
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,639
so people will google it. What do you say when

612
00:36:08,679 --> 00:36:11,039
I say the term trigger warning?

613
00:36:12,599 --> 00:36:13,079
Speaker 1: Yeah?

614
00:36:13,559 --> 00:36:19,079
Speaker 3: So trigger warnings don't appear to have the impact that

615
00:36:19,159 --> 00:36:23,639
we hoped that they would. I would love to if

616
00:36:23,639 --> 00:36:26,519
you allow me to, I will post some more recent

617
00:36:26,599 --> 00:36:31,000
research on trigger warnings. But trigger warnings are based on

618
00:36:31,119 --> 00:36:35,559
the assumption that if we warn people about potentially emotionally

619
00:36:35,599 --> 00:36:39,599
upsetting material, they will be able to they can opt

620
00:36:39,599 --> 00:36:42,679
out of it, or they are more emotionally prepared and

621
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,239
are better able to handle the material. The evidence is

622
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,800
showing that trigger warnings themselves don't necessarily work. So I'm

623
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,239
glad you brought up this word trigger again, because it

624
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:56,239
could mean different things in different contexts. I was using

625
00:36:56,239 --> 00:37:00,639
the word to refer to when people are emotionally inflamed

626
00:37:00,639 --> 00:37:05,400
in some way. When they're amigdala is activated, they're less

627
00:37:05,519 --> 00:37:10,719
able to use their prefrontal cortex to think critically, and

628
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:14,719
that is pretty well established. The idea of trigger warnings,

629
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:18,679
which is letting people know in advance that there's potentially

630
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:25,159
emotionally upsetting content, doesn't seem to have the intended impact

631
00:37:25,559 --> 00:37:30,360
that we hoped that researchers had hoped. So the idea

632
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:33,199
here is that if we let people know in advance

633
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:38,159
that there's like, for example, if we're going to read

634
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,719
a passage in which there's a rape scene. Letting people

635
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:45,119
know in advance that this is what's happening, and preparing

636
00:37:45,159 --> 00:37:48,320
them by giving a trigger warning, a specific trigger warning

637
00:37:48,519 --> 00:37:53,320
about this particular passage might help them. Either they could

638
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,880
choose to opt out, or they can be prepared so

639
00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:01,199
that it doesn't impact them as much. The research is

640
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:05,960
not bearing that out. Actually, our attempts at preparing people

641
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:09,800
emotionally in advance to protect them from the impacts of

642
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:13,159
those emotions doesn't seem to work. All this is to

643
00:38:13,199 --> 00:38:18,719
say I don't think trigger warnings and resilience are necessarily compatible.

644
00:38:19,519 --> 00:38:22,880
Letting people know in advance that they might be emotionally

645
00:38:23,039 --> 00:38:28,760
harmed versus letting them experience the shit that humans put

646
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:33,559
up with in a way that helps them persevere is

647
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:35,079
truly spectacular.

648
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,840
Speaker 2: It's interesting you and I both are dancing around this

649
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,960
one because we don't want to be dismissive for those

650
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,920
who have been generally impacted by trauma in their lives.

651
00:38:47,679 --> 00:38:50,239
But I think maybe it was Jonathan Hyde who had

652
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:54,280
written about how we do we worry about creating a

653
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:58,599
generation of tissue skinned people unprepared for the hardships of life.

654
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,480
You know, we're so busy saying I was at a

655
00:39:01,519 --> 00:39:05,599
convention years ago, and I remember there was a person

656
00:39:05,599 --> 00:39:08,039
who was having a conversation with a stranger and they

657
00:39:08,039 --> 00:39:11,119
were starting a story about their lives, their deconversion, and

658
00:39:11,559 --> 00:39:14,400
they kept saying, now, if stop me, if this is

659
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:16,599
going to trigger you, it's just triggering to you. I

660
00:39:16,599 --> 00:39:19,760
don't want to trigger you. It was almost it was

661
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:23,840
very self conscious, and I thought the flow of what

662
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:27,800
they were saying and the ability of the interlocutor to

663
00:39:28,159 --> 00:39:33,079
properly take that journey was derailed because someone was they

664
00:39:33,079 --> 00:39:36,280
had taken upon themselves whether or not someone else would

665
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:40,119
be traumatized. But if I expressed concern about that, then oh,

666
00:39:40,159 --> 00:39:43,800
looks that's a cis white privileged male who hasn't been

667
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:47,400
through abuse X or abuse. Y look at him dismissing

668
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:49,760
all the people who need the trigger warning. I mean,

669
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:50,960
it's a minefield.

670
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:55,039
Speaker 3: My husband is African American. He's a decendative slaves on

671
00:39:55,119 --> 00:39:57,719
both sides of his family, and they have taught me

672
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:02,599
so much over the years to watch my husband because

673
00:40:02,639 --> 00:40:07,280
he's an educator and a truly wonderful one, and use it.

674
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 2: So.

675
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:12,880
Speaker 3: He's a musician and often uses music to help people

676
00:40:13,199 --> 00:40:16,880
understand different cultures, to have empathy for what people were

677
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:19,960
going through when they composed various things. You could see

678
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,119
his various instruments and such behind me, he says, scholar

679
00:40:23,159 --> 00:40:27,480
actually of African American music, specifically slave songs and their derivatives.

680
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:31,880
To hear the kinds of conversations that he has with

681
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:35,840
students these days, and how frustrated he is. Students almost

682
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:40,599
seem to demand a safe space to the point where

683
00:40:41,079 --> 00:40:48,519
they're unwilling literally unwilling to sing spirituals because of how

684
00:40:48,559 --> 00:40:54,639
they are triggered emotionally. Whereas to him, if you silence

685
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:58,679
that music, you're silencing the people that wrote it. They

686
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:05,920
were resilient. We're not helping students by protecting them from

687
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,199
the harms of the world. The world is a rough place,

688
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:12,840
and if you want to survive in it, if you

689
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:16,679
want to thrive in it, then you need to understand

690
00:41:17,039 --> 00:41:22,239
how to reconcile those emotions and be resilient.

691
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 2: Send your email to trigger warnings may not actually help

692
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:31,599
at Melanie Teresa King at thinking aspower dot com.

693
00:41:32,079 --> 00:41:35,800
Speaker 3: I'm so glad that's a fake email address.

694
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 2: I struggle. I don't Empathy is the whole theme we've

695
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:45,280
been having and the quote miners could immediately say they

696
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:49,039
don't care about the traumatized, they don't care about the

697
00:41:49,079 --> 00:41:53,679
neuro divergence. They are dismissing those who may need a

698
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:57,159
little bit of a you know, a preamble. And I'll

699
00:41:57,159 --> 00:41:59,440
continue to say, you know, heads up, this is kind

700
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:01,719
of heavy. But I don't make it a big deal.

701
00:42:02,159 --> 00:42:05,239
I just feel like, in my own life, it's not

702
00:42:05,559 --> 00:42:08,840
my job to keep you comfortable. I'm not Does that

703
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:12,840
sound shitty? Does that sound dismissive?

704
00:42:14,199 --> 00:42:20,280
Speaker 3: So the real world is shitty sometimes, and protecting people

705
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:23,199
from it does not actually help them.

706
00:42:23,639 --> 00:42:26,719
Speaker 2: See and over it. Go ahead, go ahead.

707
00:42:27,079 --> 00:42:28,840
Speaker 3: I'm trying not to get on one of my tent

708
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:31,119
my like er again.

709
00:42:31,599 --> 00:42:34,760
Speaker 2: See this is what happened. I didn't prep her, and

710
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:39,800
I barely prepped myself. I just hit start, and this

711
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:42,360
is the stuff that goes down. All right, No, go ahead,

712
00:42:42,639 --> 00:42:44,840
We've got another few minutes. Hit me, what's on your mind.

713
00:42:45,639 --> 00:42:49,039
Speaker 3: I think that self righteousness is one of the most

714
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:54,199
unproductive emotions. I do understand it because I was in

715
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:57,960
it as well. But if you're in a place where

716
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:02,039
you think that other people must be stupid or must

717
00:43:02,079 --> 00:43:05,480
be evil to vote, the way that they did. Let

718
00:43:05,519 --> 00:43:09,840
me just ask you to reflect, please empathize with people,

719
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:16,400
is what you're asking is is this helping? Is it productive?

720
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:20,760
It sucks sometimes to have to be the bigger person.

721
00:43:22,159 --> 00:43:25,599
I fully will admit that, But I don't think the

722
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:29,840
dwelling on those emotions that I'm better than somebody else

723
00:43:30,039 --> 00:43:33,239
because of my beliefs or my worldview. I mean, I

724
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,199
got to where I am by getting through a place

725
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:39,519
where I'm not necessarily so proud of. But will future

726
00:43:39,639 --> 00:43:42,960
me look on current me in the same way, like

727
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,679
what am I currently wrong about? That future me will

728
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:47,800
be like, oh my god, can you believe she believed

729
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:53,079
that intellectual humility is not just a virtue, it is

730
00:43:53,119 --> 00:43:57,039
the only way that we can learn if we don't

731
00:43:57,159 --> 00:44:00,400
realize that we could be wrong and that other people

732
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,599
have something to add to the conversation that I don't

733
00:44:03,599 --> 00:44:04,639
know any other way forward.

734
00:44:05,159 --> 00:44:06,719
Speaker 2: I was going to finish there, but I have to

735
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:09,599
It's not even a Devil's advocate question. I think it

736
00:44:09,599 --> 00:44:14,000
may be legitimate. And you brought up slavery. The slave

737
00:44:14,039 --> 00:44:17,599
owner is supposed to look at the slaver and say, well,

738
00:44:17,599 --> 00:44:22,360
you know, they've had life experiences, they've been indoctrinated with

739
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:27,719
hate and oppression and bigotry, and therefore I am seeing

740
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:32,079
them in three dimensions. This empathy then what allows me

741
00:44:32,199 --> 00:44:37,199
to better address my own situation and the oppression. You

742
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:39,000
know what I'm saying. I mean it could be argued

743
00:44:39,039 --> 00:44:43,559
that no, the slave needs to defeat the enslaver because

744
00:44:43,599 --> 00:44:45,199
of the harm that's being done.

745
00:44:45,599 --> 00:44:49,039
Speaker 3: So my husband is a scholar of African American music.

746
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:53,639
He is now an assistant conductor for an organization called

747
00:44:53,639 --> 00:44:57,079
the handle in Heiden Society, which is the nation's oldest

748
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:02,920
performing arts organization. They actually perform for Lincoln's funeral, and

749
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:06,679
they were old at the time they performed for the

750
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:11,320
Emancipation Proclamation. They were I'm in Massachusetts. They were very

751
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:15,440
involved in the abolitionist movement in the women's suffrage movement.

752
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:19,960
A few years ago when a lot of organizations were

753
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:26,400
having a reckoning with their pasts, this organization wondered about

754
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:32,639
Handel's connection with the slave trade. So Handel was in

755
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:36,840
England and he was being paid by a duke that

756
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:41,000
was involved in the slave trade. So he would write

757
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:44,199
music for the court and then be paid in stock

758
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:47,199
and then would go to the bank and turn in

759
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:51,480
the stock for money. And so when the organization was

760
00:45:51,559 --> 00:45:55,559
having this come uppance with their past, they wondered what

761
00:45:55,639 --> 00:45:59,760
to do, and Anthony suggested, well, why don't we have

762
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:04,719
a concert, And so his concert idea was to explore

763
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:10,159
Handle's connection with the slave trade. Now, his concert, it's

764
00:46:10,199 --> 00:46:13,480
in its second year now, and I'm so proud of it.

765
00:46:13,599 --> 00:46:16,920
What he's done is he's created a dual narrative where

766
00:46:17,039 --> 00:46:22,320
on one side there is a Handle in England in

767
00:46:22,679 --> 00:46:27,679
the courts where his wonderful anthems are being played, and

768
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:31,559
on the other side are the slave songs, the spirituals

769
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:35,760
that were being done by Africans blacks in the New

770
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:40,800
World that were slaves. And so this dual narrative, he

771
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:44,440
actually went through a process of finding spirituals that hadn't

772
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:48,039
really been performed very often and arranging them in a

773
00:46:48,079 --> 00:46:51,840
way that you might have heard on plantation at the time.

774
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:56,679
So the concert follows this dual narrative. There's a narrator

775
00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:59,519
that explains what's happening. It's called crossing the Deep. On

776
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:03,079
one side you have the anthems of the Handles anthems.

777
00:47:03,119 --> 00:47:06,159
On the other side you get the spirituals. And in

778
00:47:06,199 --> 00:47:10,360
the process, you kind of feel yourself being connected to

779
00:47:11,199 --> 00:47:14,519
the slaves in the New World because we know that

780
00:47:14,599 --> 00:47:20,159
slavery is wrong, and we understand that people were benefiting.

781
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:26,960
Handle was benefiting from trade in people owning people. But

782
00:47:27,079 --> 00:47:29,679
the whole point of the concert you get to the end,

783
00:47:29,679 --> 00:47:32,119
and the whole point of the concert is to realize

784
00:47:32,159 --> 00:47:37,039
that we're all Handle, Like we look at people in

785
00:47:37,119 --> 00:47:40,039
the past and even people across today, and we look

786
00:47:40,039 --> 00:47:43,960
at their morality and we judge them based on our standards.

787
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:48,800
Slavery is clearly wrong, but people at the time justified

788
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:53,039
it to themselves. What are we doing today? We're handled

789
00:47:53,039 --> 00:47:57,159
in some way? What are we doing that future generations

790
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:01,119
will look back on us with their moral standards and say,

791
00:48:01,119 --> 00:48:06,320
can you believe they did these things? His perspective, like

792
00:48:06,559 --> 00:48:08,480
he is a descendant of slave on both sides of

793
00:48:08,519 --> 00:48:11,840
his family, his ability to look at this issue and

794
00:48:12,039 --> 00:48:16,280
have empathy for Handle and to recognize that we're all

795
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:20,599
doing something that future us is will judge in those

796
00:48:20,639 --> 00:48:25,360
ways is truly humbling. So I think the point here

797
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:29,679
is for us to be humble and not be so

798
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:33,639
convinced that our morals are the end all and be

799
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:38,840
all that we are absolutely right, and to stop judging

800
00:48:39,039 --> 00:48:42,280
other people and trying to cancel them for these ideas

801
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:45,760
and realize that we all have room to grow, we

802
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:49,679
can all learn, and we're right in some ways and

803
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:52,360
wrong in others. But that's part of the process.

804
00:48:53,519 --> 00:48:56,840
Speaker 2: I get into the morality of the Old Testament authors

805
00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:00,760
and you know, the genocide and the slave and whatnot,

806
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:04,079
and I'm like, well, morality's morality. I think it was wrong.

807
00:49:04,119 --> 00:49:07,079
Now it's wrong then, so I mean, I can see

808
00:49:07,119 --> 00:49:09,320
the other side of that coin. All right. I'm not

809
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:12,599
going to let the Old Testament authors skate on executing

810
00:49:12,639 --> 00:49:17,400
disobedient children or going into a non Israelite town and

811
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:20,239
wiping everybody out, including the animals, because of his the

812
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:25,159
morality of the time. You know, that's tough. That's tough

813
00:49:25,159 --> 00:49:27,480
for me. I need to pray, you know what, I

814
00:49:27,519 --> 00:49:28,199
need a gummy?

815
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:29,840
Speaker 3: Did you say I need to pray?

816
00:49:30,679 --> 00:49:31,920
Speaker 2: I was going to say I need to pray and

817
00:49:32,039 --> 00:49:35,639
fast and seek the Lord on that. But I understand.

818
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:40,599
I think the broader umbrella point is that we can

819
00:49:40,639 --> 00:49:45,039
be myopic, and maybe understanding how to dismantle all of

820
00:49:45,119 --> 00:49:48,360
the bad stuff requires perspective. Would that be a fair

821
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:49,199
way to phrase it.

822
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:52,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, and if I might want one other thing to this,

823
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:58,880
we travel a lot. The first time Anthony was asked

824
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:01,840
how much he paid for me was at a border

825
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:05,159
crossing between Uganda and Rwanda, and the border guard wanted

826
00:50:05,159 --> 00:50:06,119
to know, wait.

827
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:08,119
Speaker 2: Wait, hang on, hang on, hold on, I ask your

828
00:50:08,159 --> 00:50:10,920
husband how much he paid for you.

829
00:50:11,639 --> 00:50:14,840
Speaker 3: Yes, that was the first time, and it was a

830
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:21,119
border guard. Whoa, And his response was, well, she was

831
00:50:21,199 --> 00:50:26,679
free and that was the role because that meant I

832
00:50:26,679 --> 00:50:31,119
didn't have any value and it's so, but we were

833
00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:34,320
allowed to enter Rwanda, so that was great. But then

834
00:50:34,559 --> 00:50:38,519
after that, yeah, it was oh. I think his final

835
00:50:38,599 --> 00:50:45,559
response that he landed on was that she's priceless. I know,

836
00:50:46,079 --> 00:50:51,199
but I've told this story many times and most people

837
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:55,760
laugh because you know, it is ridiculous. But they'll generally

838
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:59,119
then say something like, oh, well, that's culture or that's religion.

839
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:02,679
And I'll say, well, can you imagine a scenario in

840
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:04,679
which somebody asked me how much I paid for him?

841
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:08,719
And how do you respond to that? And that generally

842
00:51:09,159 --> 00:51:14,519
makes the point like we all have morality blind spots,

843
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:17,119
and the kinds of things that we accept aren't necessarily

844
00:51:17,159 --> 00:51:20,960
because we're morally virtuous. But because of our culture and

845
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:22,679
our time, you're.

846
00:51:22,559 --> 00:51:25,239
Speaker 2: Doing okay in advance to twenty twenty five. I mean,

847
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:28,320
I know you're sleeping. I said gummy earlier. That's probably

848
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:30,679
not the right thing to take. When I'm feeling all

849
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:33,840
stressed and anxious, I'll burst into flame. You know. Local

850
00:51:34,079 --> 00:51:39,119
activist spontaneously combusts after consuming gummy details at ten. I

851
00:51:39,159 --> 00:51:43,280
don't want that to happen. But looking into the new year.

852
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:46,639
Speaker 3: Yes, many different gummies.

853
00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:50,719
Speaker 2: Maybe I don't speak gummy. I don't understand how they

854
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:53,599
all work. So I'm going to go fight right now.

855
00:51:53,639 --> 00:51:55,360
The best thing I've got is just to put a

856
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:58,800
dog on my chest and let Lina sleep near my neck.

857
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:02,360
And that seems to be the most relaxing thing. Looking ahead, though,

858
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:06,440
disinformation everywhere. We've got deep fakes, we've got ai, We've

859
00:52:06,519 --> 00:52:09,280
got you can't trust your eyes and ears. What in

860
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:11,800
the world do you have some way to sort of

861
00:52:13,199 --> 00:52:16,559
I don't know. Bs proof ourselves. I need resources. I

862
00:52:16,599 --> 00:52:19,119
always like to leave us with resources.

863
00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:22,239
Speaker 3: Do you have anything well, I'm writing a book on

864
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:26,880
this very issue. It's called, tentatively, how to be a Charlatan,

865
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:31,079
and it's about how to understand the techniques that different

866
00:52:31,119 --> 00:52:34,199
Charlatans are using. It will not be out in twenty

867
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:39,840
twenty five, so in the interim, I would say, go.

868
00:52:39,679 --> 00:52:43,039
Speaker 2: Ahead, pitch your on site. Go ahead, pitch your on site.

869
00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:43,599
Do it.

870
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 3: I don't even know like the best advice I could give.

871
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:49,599
Please visit my site, follow me on face. I would

872
00:52:49,719 --> 00:52:53,079
love to have happy followers who aren't rolls, so please

873
00:52:53,119 --> 00:52:57,920
do that. In the meantime, if I could just remember

874
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:02,719
your own humanity and remember that you might not know

875
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:04,320
everything that you think that you know, so have the

876
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:09,440
humility and the skepticism and curiosity to understand yourself and

877
00:53:09,519 --> 00:53:12,440
to relate to other people. I'm doing my best online,

878
00:53:12,519 --> 00:53:14,480
as Seth. I know you are, but I think a

879
00:53:14,519 --> 00:53:17,480
lot of this has kind of come down to personal

880
00:53:18,039 --> 00:53:21,760
conversations with people that you actually know in real life,

881
00:53:22,119 --> 00:53:25,119
and so it's a heavy lift. I totally understand to

882
00:53:25,199 --> 00:53:29,639
ask people to fight these battles personally, but I don't

883
00:53:29,679 --> 00:53:32,199
know any other way. I'm curious what you think.

884
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:35,559
Speaker 2: I'm trying to get over that hump myself. I've found

885
00:53:35,559 --> 00:53:39,840
myself not returning phone calls lately because I'm seething, and

886
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:44,559
I do find myself distant, but I also this is

887
00:53:44,599 --> 00:53:48,480
a gut head or heartthead conflict. I also know that

888
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:52,679
we're not going to defeat the bad by meming. We're

889
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:56,280
going to have to engage at the grassroots ground level.

890
00:53:56,559 --> 00:53:59,360
I think with the people that we encounter every single day,

891
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:03,880
humanized the issues, maybe expanding their perception about what all

892
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:06,000
of it means and what the implications are. And I

893
00:54:06,039 --> 00:54:08,440
stand by that, and that was the message of the speech,

894
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:11,440
and it's the reason that following that post, I wanted

895
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:15,400
to talk to you, and the time has flown, Melanie

896
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:20,320
Teresa King, Thinking is Power dot Com. I guess we'll

897
00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:23,280
do this again in twenty twenty five, Seth.

898
00:54:23,679 --> 00:54:28,440
Speaker 3: That speech was wonderful. Thank you. I really appreciated it.

899
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:30,920
Speaker 2: See let me get you my American Express card number

900
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:35,000
film donate to the site for that very very kind Okay,

901
00:54:35,079 --> 00:54:35,920
all right, wonderful.

902
00:54:36,519 --> 00:54:40,039
Speaker 1: Follow The Thinking Atheist on Facebook and Twitter for a

903
00:54:40,119 --> 00:54:43,719
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904
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:47,440
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905
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:51,119
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906
00:54:51,159 --> 00:54:58,159
and conventions. Log onto our website, The Thinkingatheist dot com.