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Speaker 1: Hi. I'm Lisa from Cedar Rapids, Iowa, and I play

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at Airport National Golf Course.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to golf Smiter.

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Speaker 1: Hi. This is Mark Mason from Wahawa, South Carolina. I

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played my golf at o'conny Country Club and this is

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Golf Smarter Episode one twenty two.

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Speaker 2: Here's the extra little bit of bonus to those of

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us that are athletes. Grateful athletes perform better, so we're

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actually seeing gratitude as a performance enhandser that gets us

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closer to success. So if you have two golfers who

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are similar in levels of ability, but one of them

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walks through last with a lens of gratitude and says,

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isn't it wonderful that I get to play on this course?

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How fortunate am I? People often say me, why do

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you think gratitude is performance and hancster and I think

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one of the reasons is you cannot be grateful and

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complain at the same time, Like those two things do

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not go hand in hand, getting on what I call

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the complaint train. My shots are terrible today and I

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can't believe that it's cloudy and it's a bit hotter

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than I thought, and people in front are too slow,

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and there's people going too quickly behind us, and all

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that sort of stuff that already sounds like the sort

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of person I don't really want to spend a couple

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of hours with. But it also doesn't put you in

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a mindset that sets you up to being open and

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created and curious, which we know of those things that

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go help us in terms of performance. When we are grateful,

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it's almost like an internal little sigh where we relax.

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Complaining and winging is tense. Gratitude is an absolute winner

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for us in terms of performance enhancement.

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Speaker 3: The practices of elite athletes that will help all amateur golfers.

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Speaker 1: With doctor Joe Lucas, this is golf s Murder, sharing stories,

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tips and insights from great golf minds to help you

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lower your score and raise your golf IQ.

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Speaker 2: Here's your host, Fred Green.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Golf Murder Podcast.

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Speaker 2: Joe Ah, Hi, Fred, good to be with you.

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Speaker 1: It's great to be with you. We've had doctor Joe

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on many times in this show, but it was doctor

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Joe parent It's great. It's great to have doctor Joe.

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Luken's on. A woman who has a really good book

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called The elite think like an athlete, succeed like a champion.

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I am fascinated and I want to go real deep

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with this. I think it's a great topic, especially for

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the golf Smarter audience.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, Fred, looking forward to the conversation.

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Speaker 1: So, you know, elite athletes have this routine. I guess

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that it would be called that would be prepare, train, compete, Prepare, train, compete,

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and it just goes on. And that is the cycle

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that they're in, right, And how did you get to

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that point under stid where you're going.

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Speaker 2: With the book? Yeah, So the book's come of about

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after a number of years of working in the area.

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Like you said, it's that Prepare, Train, compete. And then

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the extra element that I like to put in with

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that is part of that preparation is to learn from

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the competition, you know. So my two favorite reminders for athletes, coaches, teams,

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you know, whomever I might be working with, is to

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always remember that success leaves clues. So when we have

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been successful in our performance, as successful in our practice,

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you know that hasn't come about by accident. So there's

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the little clues that sit in behind that. So understanding

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the clues so we can rinse and repeat them, and then,

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of course, when things don't quite great, a plan, which

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is also part of what it is in golf and

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in other sports as well. It's understanding that there's always

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a lesson on offers, so if we're wise, we'll stop, plause,

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learn the lesson, and then hopefully we can we can

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improve from that. So I guess Elite was the first

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book that I wrote, and it really was design. I

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guess it was a bit of a reflection piece for

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me in some ways. You know, it's what if I

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learned from working with the elite athletes and performers that

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I've worked in throughout my career, because I work in

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a brained domains and sports in my country, and so

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it's really been about what have I learned, and then

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what are those lessons that we can translate for anyone,

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whatever their discipline might be. And you know, even for

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the non athletes out there. You know, I know that

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you don't need to be an elite athlete to think

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like one, So we can translate some of those lessons

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and that's certainly some of the things I get to

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do in the work that I do.

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Speaker 1: Well. I'm glad that you said, you don't have to

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be the elite athlete to think like one, And I

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think that's part of what golf smurder has always been about,

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is how to fine tune our mental approach to the

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game and our emotional approach to the game so that

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we don't have to just focus on our mechanics.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I would agree with that because I think that,

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you know, when we approach our sport in a way

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that is curious and we're open to learning, you know,

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it really sets us up. I mean, I think it's essentially,

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you know, there's probably a lot of goals that we

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set for ourselves, and particularly within golf, there's lots of

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things that people would be working on and wanting to

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achieve and to attain. But if you can walk away

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from it feeling like you've had some success in particular areas,

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it's just very satisfying. And I guess that's what Keys is.

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Going back to play again.

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Speaker 1: Tell me your background on how you got to this

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and what made you study athletes in this way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so you would think that being a high performance

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psychology expert, that was all part of a cunning plan,

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but it turns out that it wasn't it. Actually I

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got here by accident. To be honest, I as a

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young high school student, I thought I was joining the

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police force. So you might have picked up the audience

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might have picked up for my accent that I'm Australian,

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Australian based and as a young high see I don't

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think my accident accent is that pronounced, but anyway, I'm

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sure it is.

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Speaker 1: It is.

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Speaker 2: It is, okay, I'll try not to be too strine

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with it then, so we no, No, it's okay. It

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can be a little harsh with our sounds sometimes the Aussies.

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So I started, I thought I was going to join

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the police force, and so my parents used to take

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me to the information nights down at the police Academy

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near where I grew up. I if, for those who

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are familiar with Australia, if you look sort of top

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right hand corner, that's where I'm located there, just off

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the barrier reef, which is a nice part of the

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world to be living. And so yes, Mum and I

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would go down to the police Academy would get information

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on how I was going to join the police force.

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When I finally finished high school and in my grade

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twelve year, my final year of high school. As I

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was walking across the campus a police officer was walking

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in the opposite direction and he just stopped me mid

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stride and he said to me, what are you doing here?

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And I said, I'm coming to join the police force.

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And he looked at me and he said, well, what

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degree are you going to do? And in Australia you

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don't need a degree to join the police force, and

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you certainly didn't back in the nineteen eighties. I was

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looking to do it and I said, oh, I didn't

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know that I need to. What do I need to do?

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And he said, we'll just do something to do with people,

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and I said okay. And so, being a good child

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of the eighties, I went back to my school. I

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went back to the guidance officer and said, you know,

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I need to do a degree. It's got to be

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something to do with people. He said, what about psychology.

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I said that sounds good, and so I went and

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did a psychology degree. And I think probably for the

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good people of Queensland where I live. I don't know

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what sort of police officer I would have been, but

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I studied psychology. By the end of my fourth year,

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I'd found my love of sports psychology particularly and Australia,

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you know, like it is in the US, is very

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much a sports loving country, so there's lots of opportunity.

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There's national teams within the region that I live in.

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And now that I've spent sort of over three decades

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working in sports psychology, you know, I travel a lot

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around Australia. I have athletes from all different kinds of sports,

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teen sports, individual sports, and so forth. So that's where

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that all came about. And then about twenty five, twenty

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seven years deep into my work, I thought, you know what,

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and someone once said to me, if there's advice you're

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continually giving out, then think about putting it into a book,

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because that's a way to reach more people. So that's

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how The Elite came about. And I did a little

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bit of research into how to write a book and

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how to get that out there. Turns out that's a

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whole other adventure, and so The Elite was written and

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I'm continuing to refine that process. So I'm actually just

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about to release book number five.

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Speaker 1: So wow.

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Speaker 2: But the Elite is it's the one that I talk

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about the most. It's the one that has the broaders readership.

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And in addition to my work in sport, I also

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work in the Australian Defense Force. So many of our

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incredible defense members in Australia have have read The Elite

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and we include that as part of the education pieces

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that I deliver into the Defense Force as well.

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Speaker 1: Fabulous fascinating background and what bright took you from police

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work and training and you know, getting that psychology, how

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did you get to sports? So I will opened those doors.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So there was my super In our fourth year

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of our degree, we I was given the opportunity to

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do an honors program and in that you need to

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do a set body of work and some set research.

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And it was actually my supervisor who I went to.

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She was someone who taught me through my degree. I

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really gravitated to her. I liked the way she thinked,

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I liked the way she challenged me. And her particular

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area of interest was child psychology. And so whilst I

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didn't specifically want to go into child psychology per se,

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we were talking one day and she said, you know,

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you could always do it in an area that interests you,

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that involves children. So my very first research was with

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It was probably the bravest research I've done in my

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career because I worked with eight year olds and ten

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year olds. So every one who's ever spent time with

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eight year olds and ten year olds, I've raised two

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of them. But you know, I love children of that

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age because they really don't have the filter that many

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of us learn as adults. So I looked at I

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compared children's levels of self esteem, and depending upon their

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self esteem, whether their self esteem was higher or lower,

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whether that had an influence then on how they would

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explain their relative successes and disappointments in sport. And it's

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probably no surprise to the audience listening that those children

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who had higher levels of self esteem would tend to

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attribute their successes in a more complimentary way to themselves.

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They'd think it was because of their ability. They'd see

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it because of their effort, whereas children with lower self

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esteem would say, you know, well, I was just lucky

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that day and competition wasn't very hard, and those sorts

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of things. So I was really curious about how children

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explain the world. I've always been interested in those levels

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of attributions, and that's always been an area of interest

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for me, and then that developed further from there and that.

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Speaker 1: Took you to professional athletes.

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Speaker 3: It did.

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Speaker 2: So I live in the re of Australia, as I said,

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sort of top right hand corner of Australia, and at

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that point in time, not long after I graduated, I'm

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a big fan of I don't know if you remember Fred.

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In nineteen ninety six, Gwyneth Paltrow was in a movie

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it was Sliding Doors, and the Sliding Doors movie was

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all about I think in that movie it was whether

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or not she took a subway, you know, she got

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the subway or she missed the subway. In the movie

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sort of split down the middle and it showed her life.

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And the Sliding Doors moment for me, apart from the

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police officer stopping me. You know, six or seven years earlier,

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was that a new football team came to our region

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and they didn't have a sports psychologist there. There wasn't

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actually anyone working in sports psychology in our town. And

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with all the bravado and gusto that you might have

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at the age of I think I was about twenty

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five at the time, of course, I thought I could

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do it, so I I you know, fortune favors the Brave,

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I guess, and so I ended up speaking with the

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head coach there and was appointed and stayed with that

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team for twenty six years.

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Speaker 1: I actually have been to Brisbane in the early to

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mid nineties. I was there with the National Basketball Association.

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Speaker 2: They oh, there you got.

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Speaker 1: They had a fan event and they wanted me to

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come along to do my thing over there.

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Speaker 2: So oh fantastic it was, and I loved it.

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Speaker 1: I've been begging my wife, come on, come with me,

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Let's go back to Australia. Playah A.

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Speaker 2: I grew up just north of Brisbane, so okay, yeah,

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I work with Australian Busball Association, so there you go.

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Lots of connections, lots of connections.

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Speaker 1: That's great in the elite. The one of the things

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that really stood out to me, And I wish I

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would have known this as a young person, not just

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through sport, but in life as the failure the way

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you describe it here, failure is not the opposite of success,

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but an integral part of it. I wish I would

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have realized that not succeeding isn't necessarily failure. It just

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breeds experience and it is what gets you to success.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's the pathway for learning. I think, you know, like,

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of course, we would all prefer to have success come

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away first time around. That would be you know, that

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would be wonderful if that's what happened, But I guess

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that's not the reality of the world that we live in.

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And you know, and golf is certainly one of those

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sports that there is so many opportunities to learn along

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the way and to gain wisdom whilst you're playing and

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whilst you're practicing. So I think it's I think, as

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you say, it's broader than what we do within our sport.

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It's how we approach life and when we understand that

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when the disappointments come, it isn't so much what happens

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to us. It is about what we do with it.

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And so when we see those disappointments, and it's okay,

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if you know, if it hurts for a little bit,

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if we kind of feel like we're a bit bruised

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from the experience, so give us seals permission to take

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a deep breath, you know, give ourselves permission to be

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a bit annoyed by it, if that's what we feel

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that we are. But what we need to do, then,

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is to put ourselves on a pathway with what I

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would call a performance mindset rather than fixed mindset. That

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you know, failures, disappointments, all those sorts of things. Failures

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is a word I don't typically try to use that

283
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too often for myself, but I do recognize the challenges

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and the disappointments when things don't go my way, and

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then go, well, here's life giving me a chance to

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learn something here. I wonder what the lesson is.

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Speaker 1: What separated golfers from other athletes From your research.

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Speaker 2: I think golf is a sport. I mean, I think,

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of all, there's so many sports that have such a

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strong mental component, but I think golf is for me.

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And I guess my experience with golf goes back to

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ramp at the time I thought I was joining the

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police force. Was I did in Australia. The subjects often

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referred to as PE or physical education, and we did

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a golf unit in my grade twelve years so that's

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when I first was introduced to golf for myself. But

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I've grown up with my father's played golf all of

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his life, so we're a golfing family. I have two sons,

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you know, they play golf, and I play a little

300
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bit of golf as well, and I am very much

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know every expert was once a beginner, and I am

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very much consider myself in the beginner ranks. But that's okay,

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that's what it is with golf. But I think the

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thing with golf is because it's you know, it's a

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sport where you play it over an extended period of time.

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So over the course of a couple of hours each

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time that you go out to play, you know, you

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have a lot of time to think, you have a

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lot of time to be inside your head, if we

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want to use that sort of expression. And so it's

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such a great opportunity to be mindful about the way

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we choose to speak to ourselves because there's no doubt

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that there's that relationship between what we say and how

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we feel, and how we feel is really what drives

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what we do. You know, So if something doesn't go

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to plan on the course, you know you're driving and

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it's not you know you're driving. You know you've had

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a couple of instances, over a couple of holes where

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it hasn't quite been what you've wanted. If your self

320
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talk is, for example, oh my driving is no good today,

321
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Then it sounds like you've actually set the scene for

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what's going to happen in the future in addition to

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what's happened in the past. So it's that challenge, isn't it,

324
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of going well? Okay? So it's true that for the

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last three holes that hasn't been the way that I've

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wanted it to. But I've still got six holes in

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front of me? So how can I think about this

328
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in a little more helpful way? And I think one

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of the phrases that I guess, the framework that I've

330
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found that's particularly useful for a lot of the athletes

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that I work with, but also for myself is to

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look at it through the lens of what's going to

333
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be helpful right now. So you know, when I've worked

334
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with golfers, it's really been about, you know, in light

335
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of where I'm at right now, in light of what's

336
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been happening, about how I'm feeling, what's the most helpful

337
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approach for me moving forward? And if you can move

338
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your self closer to the helpful, then you know you're

339
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less likely to go down a path where you're maybe

340
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negative or self deprecating in a way that doesn't get

341
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you closer to the goals or the success that you're

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looking for.

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Speaker 1: And what can be helpful right now? I mean I

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frequently have said that the history has nothing to do

345
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with golf. When people start, oh boy, I can't drive today,

346
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I'm not it's not working. It's like, well, that has

347
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nothing to do with your next shot. And if you

348
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place that in your head and start telling yourself that,

349
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then you're doomed. So just go just close your eyes, relax,

350
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go through your your preshot or whatever it is that

351
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you need to do, but focus on what's next. Stop

352
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you know, eating yourself up.

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Speaker 2: Basically exactly. And I would completely concur with that, Fred,

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because you're right, that self fulfilling prophecy that we create

355
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for ourselves. If we say my putting's no good today,

356
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or you know, I can't get shot in or whatever

357
00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:04,799
that might be, then don't be surprised when you replicate it.

358
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Because of course, one of the other things we know

359
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is that what we tell ourselves as humans, For many

360
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of us, we do think in visuals, so we are

361
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more likely to you know, if we talk to ourselves

362
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in a way that's less helpful in golf, And I

363
00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:20,440
don't even want to put the negative thoughts in anyone's

364
00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,160
mind as I'm talking through this, So I typically go

365
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to a different sport for this example, if I may. So,

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if you are a track hurdler, you know, and you're

367
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lined up at the start of the race, it's not

368
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going to be helpful for you to think, don't hit

369
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the hurdles, don't hit the hurdles, because you actually get

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that visual that image of the hurdles going down. What

371
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you would be what's more helpful is to go, well,

372
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you know, as I approach the hurdles, like clear the hurdles,

373
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like clear the hurdles, like clear the hurdles. So the

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same applies in golf. That as you said, it might

375
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be about your preshop routine. It might be about a visualization.

376
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There might be a cue word you say to yourself, well,

377
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maybe you just simply exhale and you don't think about

378
00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,559
any thing. You know, some performers that I work with,

379
00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:08,000
you know, they like the verbal cues for themselves. Others

380
00:19:08,079 --> 00:19:10,240
just say I don't actually want to think about anything.

381
00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:12,000
I just want to feel my way through it. So

382
00:19:12,519 --> 00:19:15,720
we all have to find our own pathway. But I

383
00:19:15,799 --> 00:19:19,359
do think it's you tapped into the probably one of

384
00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,880
the most important elements in sport, but particularly in golf,

385
00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,839
it's that understanding as humans, we've got three dimensions of

386
00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:30,160
time that we operate in, Like you said, our history,

387
00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,359
what's happened, what's happened to everything right up to this moment,

388
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what's happening in this current moment right now, and then

389
00:19:36,279 --> 00:19:40,480
what does it look like in our future? And physically

390
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:43,279
we can only be in one of those spots, and

391
00:19:43,319 --> 00:19:45,799
that's in the present because unless we've got a time machine,

392
00:19:45,799 --> 00:19:47,839
which would be kind of cool, but we don't have one,

393
00:19:48,039 --> 00:19:50,559
you know, So we can't go back to this morning,

394
00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:54,680
we can't go ahead to the weekend, you know, whenever

395
00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,640
it might be sometime in the future. So physically we

396
00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:00,839
can only ever be in the present. But mentally time travelers.

397
00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,319
Mentally you can take yourself to wherever you want to be.

398
00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:06,200
Like you said, you could be thinking back to what

399
00:20:06,279 --> 00:20:08,759
happened that on the first hole, or you could be

400
00:20:08,799 --> 00:20:10,839
thinking about what's going to happen when you get to

401
00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:15,200
the clubhouse or whatever it might be. But the challenge

402
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,839
for athletes, the challenge for golfers is to have their

403
00:20:18,839 --> 00:20:21,559
head in the right place at the right time. And

404
00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:24,680
to your point, you know, I would envisage that at

405
00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:26,720
the moment of taking the shot, and please, this is

406
00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:28,960
now your expertise, because you haven't brought me on here

407
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,079
for my golf expertise more than my mental expertise. But

408
00:20:32,319 --> 00:20:34,920
my expectation would be around the time that you are

409
00:20:35,039 --> 00:20:38,079
taking the shot, you know, your focus does become far

410
00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:40,960
more narrowed. You may have gone into the past as

411
00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:44,079
you were selecting your club. You may look into the

412
00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:47,039
future as you survey the hole in front of you

413
00:20:47,079 --> 00:20:49,319
and you pick up on the distance and the hazards

414
00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:51,599
and the you know where you're hoping that the first

415
00:20:51,599 --> 00:20:53,079
shot is going to go. But at the point where

416
00:20:53,079 --> 00:20:56,480
you're actually taking the shot, my expectation would be that

417
00:20:56,519 --> 00:20:58,880
your focus sort of narrows a little bit in terms

418
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,559
of time, and it's about being in the moment and

419
00:21:02,319 --> 00:21:04,559
however you need to spend the time in that moment. So,

420
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:07,039
as I said, it could be through instruction to yourself,

421
00:21:07,039 --> 00:21:09,480
it could be through an image, it could be through

422
00:21:09,519 --> 00:21:11,519
a breath, whatever it might be. We've all got our

423
00:21:11,559 --> 00:21:15,720
own strategies, but it's how we navigate past present and future.

424
00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,079
That really helps to define then whether we've got our

425
00:21:19,079 --> 00:21:20,559
head in the right place at the right time.

426
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:31,319
Speaker 1: Regularly when I'm playing with someone in there or even myself,

427
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:33,640
don't hit the water, don't hit the water. Don't hit

428
00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:37,319
the water. I always, you know, like chime in and say,

429
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:40,119
you know, the last three words you just said, hit

430
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:43,519
the water, hit the water, hit the water, and they're

431
00:21:43,559 --> 00:21:49,240
like what oh yeaheah, yeah, don't even just focus somewhere else.

432
00:21:49,559 --> 00:21:53,319
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I think the good reminder there is is

433
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,720
that our brain struggles with the word don't. Your advice

434
00:21:56,839 --> 00:21:58,720
is so wise there. It's almost like if you can

435
00:21:58,799 --> 00:22:01,279
imagine those four words, it's written down on a page,

436
00:22:01,519 --> 00:22:03,480
put a big line through the don't because your brain

437
00:22:03,519 --> 00:22:06,519
doesn't hear it, you know. And if we go you know,

438
00:22:06,599 --> 00:22:09,039
my go to example, which probably resonates well for you

439
00:22:09,079 --> 00:22:11,240
at the moment, is I say, you know, don't think

440
00:22:11,279 --> 00:22:13,599
about the Eiffel Tower, you know, and when we don't

441
00:22:13,599 --> 00:22:16,000
think about the earful tower, boom, there it is, you know,

442
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:18,640
right there in front of us that we do think

443
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:22,400
in visuals and so you know, it's that extra little

444
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:26,599
bit of work that we need to do to tell ourselves. So, okay,

445
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:28,559
we know we don't want to hit it into the water,

446
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:30,079
So where do you want to hit it? You know?

447
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:35,200
And if it's down the fairway, down the fairway is helpful.

448
00:22:35,279 --> 00:22:39,640
Three words not in the water is the unhelpful ones.

449
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,720
So it's and that translates across life, doesn't it. You know,

450
00:22:42,799 --> 00:22:44,880
you have a three year old in your lund room

451
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,240
with a glass of water and you tell them not

452
00:22:47,279 --> 00:22:49,319
to spill it, and then you wander way. You end

453
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:50,960
up with water all over your floor, you know. So

454
00:22:51,039 --> 00:22:53,039
what you need to say is careful hands, you know.

455
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:56,240
So so, and that's when we're instructing others, but it's

456
00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:58,880
also when we're talking to ourselves because when we have

457
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,160
a don't phrase in our mind, we've then got to

458
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:05,519
do all that extra work and you know, transfer it

459
00:23:05,559 --> 00:23:07,680
back to what the actions are actually going.

460
00:23:07,599 --> 00:23:12,200
Speaker 1: To look like exactly exactly. So the subtitle of the

461
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:16,839
subtitle of the Elite, think like an athlete, succeed like

462
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,359
a champion would be the subtitle of the Elite. But

463
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:21,880
the next one is the one that really got my attention.

464
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:26,440
That's ten things the elite do differently. Can we break

465
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:27,119
those down?

466
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:31,480
Speaker 2: Yes, yes we can. Please yes, and I mean, certainly

467
00:23:31,519 --> 00:23:34,319
that's what I've done in the book is so, and

468
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,359
what I learned in my research about how do you

469
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,519
write a non fiction book is it seems that the

470
00:23:39,599 --> 00:23:42,119
general model is that you write a twelve chapter book

471
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:44,720
with an introduction and a conclusion, and then you have

472
00:23:44,759 --> 00:23:47,400
your ten chapters in the middle. So the ten chapters

473
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:49,400
in the middle, and that's where I've broken it down

474
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:53,519
into some of those key elements that my experience has

475
00:23:53,559 --> 00:23:56,160
told me is that when athletes get some of these

476
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,079
things right and work, and they're all the work in progress,

477
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:00,680
you know, So it's not like you can work your

478
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:02,400
way through the list and just tick them all off.

479
00:24:02,519 --> 00:24:05,119
Is that you know, for all of us, at whatever

480
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,000
age we are, we're generally a work in progress. We're

481
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,160
working on some things. There's always something to work on.

482
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,359
So those are certainly the ten key chapters there in

483
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,200
the elite are the key messages that I really wanted

484
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:20,000
to focus on in that first book that I wrote,

485
00:24:20,039 --> 00:24:21,640
because what I wanted to be able to do is

486
00:24:21,759 --> 00:24:25,119
translate some of the lessons of high performance so that

487
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:27,440
anyone can read it and hopefully it's a very comfortable

488
00:24:27,519 --> 00:24:29,759
read for people to read. Or listen to the audio book,

489
00:24:29,759 --> 00:24:31,720
however they might want to do it. But you know,

490
00:24:31,799 --> 00:24:34,480
we've got those lessons there and we can dip into those,

491
00:24:34,599 --> 00:24:36,279
spend a bit of time with them, and work on

492
00:24:36,279 --> 00:24:37,279
our skill sets.

493
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:40,559
Speaker 1: But if it's a golf book, it's going to be eighteen.

494
00:24:40,279 --> 00:24:44,799
Speaker 2: Chapters, well yes, yes, I'd have to make smaller chapters.

495
00:24:44,839 --> 00:24:47,440
So maybe the golf book that I write will actually

496
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:49,880
be eighteen Or as my son did the other day,

497
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:52,920
I think he was avoiding doing something some chores at home,

498
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,119
so he actually played thirty six so he had so

499
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:58,400
much time the first time around he went around again,

500
00:24:58,480 --> 00:24:59,920
So that might be a thirty six chapter.

501
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,640
Speaker 1: All right, so let's start with I mean, I don't

502
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:09,440
really care on what order it is, but I'd love

503
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,480
to get to these ten things that elite athletes do

504
00:25:12,599 --> 00:25:17,440
that we could learn from, not that we don't, but

505
00:25:18,279 --> 00:25:21,440
you know, let's also put in perspective that most elite

506
00:25:21,519 --> 00:25:26,559
athletes are young people, right, I mean, whether the Olympics

507
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:30,759
or professional sports, they're between eighteen and thirty years old,

508
00:25:31,599 --> 00:25:34,759
and we're looking at them like their heroes or something.

509
00:25:34,799 --> 00:25:37,359
But they've got a talent or they've you know, got

510
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:42,000
a work ethic that puts them in a different place

511
00:25:42,079 --> 00:25:45,400
than most of us who have a work ethic for

512
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:49,400
our work, right, so we shouldn't try to compare or

513
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:54,559
look to those people as guides for our lives. But

514
00:25:54,599 --> 00:25:58,000
with that said, what are let's let's break down the

515
00:25:58,319 --> 00:25:59,119
ten things.

516
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think one of the first things that

517
00:26:02,759 --> 00:26:04,640
I would say is, and it taps into what we've

518
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:06,799
been talking about, is about having a master plan for

519
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,640
your mindset. So it's it's understanding some of those things

520
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,079
we were talking about earlier that you can have a

521
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,920
very fixed mindset around how how it is that you think,

522
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,559
or you can be open and you can be curious

523
00:26:19,559 --> 00:26:22,440
and interestingly, in the next book that I'm writing, I'm

524
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:26,279
talking a lot about curiosity, which which fits in really

525
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:28,200
nicely with that notion of having a little bit of

526
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,640
a master plan around your mindset. It's understanding that the

527
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,799
way that you think matters, if you know, which is

528
00:26:34,839 --> 00:26:37,000
such a simple concept in some ways, but it makes

529
00:26:37,039 --> 00:26:41,880
such an incredible difference. And having that curiosity being open

530
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,640
to ideas is that you know, what I've what I

531
00:26:44,839 --> 00:26:47,680
find is that when I meet curious souls, and whether

532
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,839
that be defense personnel, whether that be elite athletes, whether

533
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,880
it be you know, really experienced coaches that I work

534
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:59,359
with and so forth. It's about having that openness, that curiosity,

535
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:03,240
that flexibility in terms of thinking about being open to

536
00:27:04,079 --> 00:27:07,720
you know, so maybe maybe in my golf game, actually

537
00:27:07,759 --> 00:27:09,359
my putting is actually probably the best bit of it.

538
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,759
But you know, so let's say my driving, My driving

539
00:27:12,839 --> 00:27:15,039
is where there is the most room for improvement. So

540
00:27:15,039 --> 00:27:17,279
how's that for a positive reframe? So let's just say

541
00:27:17,279 --> 00:27:20,480
that's what that is for me. So exactly what I've

542
00:27:20,519 --> 00:27:23,480
just done there, see how I've really tried to positively

543
00:27:23,519 --> 00:27:27,480
reframe that. You know, it's not the strongest of my

544
00:27:27,519 --> 00:27:30,519
of my skill set when it comes to golf. And

545
00:27:30,559 --> 00:27:33,039
if I say to myself, well, I'm not good at driving,

546
00:27:33,759 --> 00:27:36,559
then that sounds quite fixed and it sounds quite permanent,

547
00:27:36,599 --> 00:27:39,240
and it doesn't sound particularly positive. But even just shifting

548
00:27:39,279 --> 00:27:44,599
that thinking slightly, I'm not good at driving, yet it

549
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:49,440
recognizes that possibility for improvement. And so I think one

550
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:51,400
of one of the key things for us to have

551
00:27:52,079 --> 00:27:56,279
is that notion of that particular mindset piece. And I

552
00:27:56,319 --> 00:28:00,160
think that's what's that's what's really helpful for us to

553
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:05,960
to start that with the approach around around our actual mindset,

554
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,519
because we know that your attitude can be your greatest

555
00:28:08,759 --> 00:28:11,559
or your greatest acquisition, or can be one of your

556
00:28:11,559 --> 00:28:12,359
biggest barriers.

557
00:28:14,079 --> 00:28:20,880
Speaker 1: Absolutely, absolutely, and probably and again with golf, there's so

558
00:28:21,079 --> 00:28:25,680
little time that you're actually playing golf, and so much

559
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:31,640
of the time is beating yourself up going over the

560
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,079
last shot or worrying about the next one. Yeah.

561
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,680
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And it's challenging, isn't it Because for many people

562
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,559
who don't go down the elite pathway, which is the

563
00:28:40,599 --> 00:28:44,880
majority of golfers, this is the fun stuff. This is like,

564
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,160
this is what you're choosing to do in your recreation time,

565
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,319
and it's the skill that you're choosing to build. So

566
00:28:51,359 --> 00:28:53,839
we want to find those ways to find the enjoyment

567
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,519
in it rather than spending ninety percent of that time,

568
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,359
you know, being frustrated and annoyed and like you said,

569
00:28:59,359 --> 00:29:02,920
beating ourselves up so that you can be really quite challenging.

570
00:29:03,759 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 1: Absolutely all right, Where are we go next with that?

571
00:29:06,559 --> 00:29:09,119
Speaker 2: I think the next one and I think this will

572
00:29:09,119 --> 00:29:11,880
resonate with what you were talking earlier about in terms

573
00:29:12,119 --> 00:29:20,000
of pre shot rituals and routine is habits. Now look

574
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,480
to be honest habit. When I go into a room

575
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,599
of people, and because I do lots of presenting, and

576
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:26,480
I say, and I know we're going to talk about

577
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,720
habits because I know how incredibly important they are. You know,

578
00:29:29,799 --> 00:29:31,960
about forty percent of what most of us do every

579
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,920
single day is on auto pilot. They are the habits

580
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,400
that we have. If you think about brushing your teeth

581
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,480
this morning, and let's assume we all brushed our teeth

582
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,599
this morning, but your routine of brushing your teeth, what

583
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:44,920
it was today is probably what it was yesterday, is

584
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:46,799
probably what it will be in a week's time. You know,

585
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,599
how you know whether you stand at the base and

586
00:29:49,599 --> 00:29:51,960
whether you walk around the house looking for things, how

587
00:29:52,039 --> 00:29:55,200
you actually go through that particular behavior, how long you

588
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:58,640
stand therefore, how effective a job you do, all those things.

589
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,559
So we know that our habits are great because they

590
00:30:02,599 --> 00:30:05,000
save us from having to think. You know, I didn't

591
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:06,880
have to think too much about whether or not the

592
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:09,200
decision to brush my teeth this morning because I do

593
00:30:09,279 --> 00:30:11,880
it on autopilot. It's a habit that I have. But

594
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,079
by the same token, we've got to be careful because

595
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,160
habits are awful because they save us from having to think,

596
00:30:17,279 --> 00:30:20,920
so particularly in golf, there is the opportunity to bring

597
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:26,720
in so many habits into the game itself, and as

598
00:30:27,279 --> 00:30:30,359
you very wisely share with the listeners or you know,

599
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,799
however many so many episodes that you've been doing this

600
00:30:34,839 --> 00:30:37,799
for now is it is about those habits that we

601
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,440
create for ourselves because they're the bits we don't have

602
00:30:40,519 --> 00:30:43,519
to think about. And as we get more expert at something,

603
00:30:43,839 --> 00:30:46,200
what we're typically doing is we're just creating more habits.

604
00:30:46,519 --> 00:30:49,279
Because the more habits you have, the more automated you

605
00:30:49,319 --> 00:30:51,960
can make some of those things, the less thinking you

606
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:53,880
have to give them. You know, if anyone can remember

607
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,920
back to when they first started playing golf and you think,

608
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,319
I mean, it's a cognitive sport as it is, you know,

609
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:01,839
like there's a lot of thinking involved in terms of

610
00:31:02,039 --> 00:31:04,480
there's a lot of intricacies and a lot of technique

611
00:31:04,519 --> 00:31:07,599
involved in doing it well. So when you're first starting,

612
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,799
you can feel like you're running one hundred instructions through

613
00:31:10,799 --> 00:31:13,920
your head, which we know isn't necessarily helpful. But you know,

614
00:31:14,039 --> 00:31:17,640
over time, some of those instructions are less necessary because

615
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:22,119
through routine, through repetition, but also through habit they've been created.

616
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:26,720
So habit acquisition is probably I think one of the

617
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:31,400
most important elements. It's not probably the most enticing of topics,

618
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,440
or people don't go, oh, I'm really excited to hear

619
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,359
about creating habits, but there's no doubt that in our

620
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,960
lives that becomes incredibly important. And then of course it

621
00:31:41,039 --> 00:31:43,920
flows on to the other things that in some way

622
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,240
have nothing to do with golf, but actually have everything

623
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:50,000
to do with golf. Our sleep and nutrition, our hydration.

624
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,000
I live in a very warm climate, so our sun's

625
00:31:54,039 --> 00:31:56,880
safety when we're out there playing golf and so forth.

626
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,279
So we know that all of our habits, you know,

627
00:31:59,319 --> 00:32:02,440
our habits work about how that you know we're in

628
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,400
a stressful work environment, what habits have we created around that?

629
00:32:06,119 --> 00:32:08,440
Or our family environment is that stressful? And then ho

630
00:32:08,519 --> 00:32:11,240
dos that then flow on an impact? So I think

631
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:15,720
even though it's not the most meeting of topics or

632
00:32:15,799 --> 00:32:19,519
maybe the most exciting ones, I would say that investing

633
00:32:19,599 --> 00:32:23,119
some time in understanding habits and creating great habits from

634
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:27,759
yourself really does set up that foundation for playing great golf.

635
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:40,279
Speaker 1: Joe, you're on the Golf Smarter podcast. So topics like sleep, nutrition, hydration,

636
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:45,039
some protection habits routines. Those are not rare to be

637
00:32:45,119 --> 00:32:49,119
discussed on this show. And so I'm just guessing that

638
00:32:49,599 --> 00:32:53,720
either the audience rolls their eyes at me or they

639
00:32:53,839 --> 00:32:58,279
are in That's why they keep coming back to more,

640
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:00,559
because we talk about things like.

641
00:33:00,519 --> 00:33:03,359
Speaker 2: This absolutely, and I think it's challenging, isn't it, Because

642
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:07,960
I know sometimes people wish there was a quick fix

643
00:33:08,039 --> 00:33:11,200
or wish that there was some little gadget or something

644
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,960
that we can do. And absolutely, we've got lots of

645
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,640
different skills and strategies and things that we can learn.

646
00:33:17,319 --> 00:33:21,319
But literally the low hanging fruit, the things that's easiest

647
00:33:21,319 --> 00:33:25,200
to pick, the things that are easiest to potentially change,

648
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,519
other things that have the biggest factor, you know. So

649
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,480
I spend a lot of time with defense personnel but

650
00:33:32,559 --> 00:33:35,720
also with athletes looking at the topic of sleep because

651
00:33:35,759 --> 00:33:40,400
whilst you know, excise physiologists and other specialists can give

652
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,039
us lots of great information around sleep, we also know

653
00:33:43,119 --> 00:33:46,839
that sleep is a psychological experience, you know. So sleep

654
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:50,559
sleep starts with a really big decision, And the really

655
00:33:50,599 --> 00:33:53,039
big decision is will I go to bed right now?

656
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,319
You know, it might be nine o'clock, it might be

657
00:33:55,359 --> 00:33:57,880
ten o'clock and so forth, and there we are sitting

658
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,000
on the couch going I could go to bed right now,

659
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,880
or hey, there's one more episode of the show that

660
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,319
I'm streaming or that I'm watching, and so forth, And

661
00:34:06,359 --> 00:34:09,159
then that's the decision point. And you know it's easy,

662
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,159
Like you know, it's easy at that point in time

663
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,599
to go, you know, like we know people know the

664
00:34:15,639 --> 00:34:17,920
better choice. You know, we know that we're better off

665
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,719
to get more sleep. And I can say that, like,

666
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:23,199
you know, we're in different time zone, so it's early

667
00:34:23,199 --> 00:34:24,920
in the morning for me, So I could tell you

668
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:26,519
what a great idea it'll be for me to go

669
00:34:26,559 --> 00:34:29,760
to bed early tonight. But when I get to tonight,

670
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,239
at the end of a long day, when I'm fatigued,

671
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,800
humans struggle. Even the wisest people won't make good decisions

672
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,840
when they're tired and their glucose is low. So if

673
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:43,039
we want the things that make I guess pack the

674
00:34:43,039 --> 00:34:44,840
biggest punch, if we want to put it that way,

675
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,320
or the low hanging fruit as I sometimes like to

676
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,679
describe it, is that the biggest performance enhances we have,

677
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:54,679
or are those elements. It's what's our nutrition been? Am

678
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:58,000
I rested, when did I last do some physical activity?

679
00:34:58,039 --> 00:35:01,559
You know, those elements become incredib important and once we've

680
00:35:01,559 --> 00:35:05,599
got those in place, then we can then we can

681
00:35:05,639 --> 00:35:07,280
work on all the other stuff. But you know, it's

682
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:09,599
so much harder when we're tired, Like try doing anything

683
00:35:09,599 --> 00:35:13,039
we're tired. It's it's such a struggle. And the other element.

684
00:35:13,079 --> 00:35:15,840
I work a lot with teenagers, you know, I sort

685
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,519
of around that sixteen seventeen year old age group as well.

686
00:35:19,119 --> 00:35:21,840
And if there's one thing that I can share with

687
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,440
the listeners, and I know not maybe some people are

688
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,480
listening who are sixteen seventeen, but there's certainly there's plenty

689
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,559
of people listening who were sixteen or seventeen once. And

690
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,440
you know, if this piece of information helps you in

691
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:36,239
that decision making at the end of the day when

692
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,360
you're deciding whether or not to go to bed. There

693
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:40,800
was some research conducted a couple of years ago now

694
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,920
looking at teenage athletes, and that what that research particularly

695
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:48,599
looked at is that those athletes who averaged under seven

696
00:35:48,639 --> 00:35:52,000
hours sleeper night increase their risk of injury over the

697
00:35:52,039 --> 00:35:57,000
next twenty one months by seventy percent. So, you know,

698
00:35:57,639 --> 00:35:59,920
as golfers One of the things we want to do

699
00:36:00,159 --> 00:36:02,519
is we want to avoid our risk of injury. If

700
00:36:02,559 --> 00:36:05,239
we want to lower our risk of injury, lots of

701
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:07,360
things you can do. You would have had lots of

702
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:09,480
experts over the years and lots of advice Fred that

703
00:36:09,519 --> 00:36:13,719
you give around injury prevention for people. But one of

704
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:15,320
the biggest things you can do is go to bed,

705
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,239
don't be tired. You know, when we're fatigued, we increase

706
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:20,039
our risk of injury. And I know that that's not

707
00:36:20,119 --> 00:36:22,760
the bright and shiny advice that sometimes people look for,

708
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,840
but sometimes it is that. You know, it's that stuff

709
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:28,880
that we know, and it's just such a great way

710
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,159
to set ourselves up. If you want to get closer

711
00:36:31,159 --> 00:36:33,480
to your goals, whatever they might be, if you want

712
00:36:33,519 --> 00:36:38,440
to get closer to higher performance, fulfilling those factors sleep, nutrition,

713
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:43,039
and fiscal activity are They're really powerful things that we

714
00:36:43,119 --> 00:36:46,480
have at our disposal that we can do every single

715
00:36:46,559 --> 00:36:48,440
day that will help us.

716
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:54,199
Speaker 1: I am so guilty. I get I you know, after

717
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:56,119
my wife goes to sleep, I'm like, yeah, I'll be

718
00:36:56,159 --> 00:36:58,000
there in a few minutes, and then I turn on

719
00:36:58,079 --> 00:37:02,679
YouTube and it's hours later that I come to bed

720
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,840
and it's like every you know, it's like, oh, this

721
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,400
one's under ten minutes, I'll just watch this one. Yeah,

722
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:10,400
it's good. O. Wait, oh here's a six minute when

723
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:12,880
I can do that? Oh, fifteen minutes, that's way too long.

724
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:17,159
I can watch that video. And I spend hours on

725
00:37:17,199 --> 00:37:19,320
YouTube when I should be going to sleep, and I

726
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:21,440
know I should be going to sleep, and it's like,

727
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:24,599
how did it become eleven thirty all of a sudden?

728
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:25,800
Why am I still here?

729
00:37:26,679 --> 00:37:29,239
Speaker 2: Absolutely? And part of that Fred, Part of that Fred

730
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:32,239
is you know you're making a choice. But part of it,

731
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:34,920
the other reason that makes it harder, it's a harder

732
00:37:35,039 --> 00:37:38,199
choice is because you're tired. And when we're tied, like

733
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,880
to be honest, and I'm probably going to sound a

734
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:42,639
bit logical as i say this, but if I think

735
00:37:42,679 --> 00:37:45,679
about my reality, if it's in the evening and I'm

736
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:48,760
sitting on my couch and I'm watching some TV, it

737
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:51,599
is so much harder to get up, turn off the lights,

738
00:37:51,639 --> 00:37:53,920
put the cat out, shut the door, go and brush

739
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:56,599
my teeth. Climbing, you know, get into my pajamas, climb

740
00:37:56,599 --> 00:37:58,840
into bed. That's so much work. I don't even have

741
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,480
to press next episode anymore on my remote because the

742
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:04,679
streaming channel I used just flipped straight into the next episode,

743
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:08,480
So no effort to get off the coat couch. But

744
00:38:08,679 --> 00:38:11,000
getting up and going to bed is work. So I've

745
00:38:11,039 --> 00:38:13,840
got one little handy hint that worked for has worked

746
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:15,599
for a number of people that I work with over

747
00:38:15,599 --> 00:38:18,159
the years, is and most people. The other trap is

748
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:20,599
that most people have got their phone close by, so

749
00:38:20,679 --> 00:38:24,360
let's use our phone for good rather than for less good.

750
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,000
And if I can, one suggestion that I found work

751
00:38:27,119 --> 00:38:29,440
for some people is to set your alarm clock to

752
00:38:29,559 --> 00:38:34,360
go to bed, so you know that life, all life

753
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:36,360
would be improved if you went. And I'll make it

754
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:38,119
up if you know that you'd be better off if

755
00:38:38,159 --> 00:38:41,280
you were heading to bed at ten pm, then set

756
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,840
the alarm for ten pm. And when the alarm goes off,

757
00:38:44,199 --> 00:38:46,199
and this is what I talk about. I talk about

758
00:38:46,199 --> 00:38:49,440
habit stacking and how to do that. In chapter three

759
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:52,559
in the book, the tap was called success on Autopilot,

760
00:38:52,559 --> 00:38:55,159
but it's really about when the alarm goes off, then

761
00:38:55,199 --> 00:38:59,159
I go to bed. And I think the curiosity that

762
00:38:59,159 --> 00:39:01,880
we were talking about from chapter two that if you

763
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:06,320
can do that and say, well, look, it's not that

764
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,480
I have to go to bed early forever. But let's

765
00:39:09,559 --> 00:39:11,239
try it for a month and see how I go.

766
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:14,480
Let's treat myself like a little science experiment, and I'm

767
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:16,760
going to try one or two little changes. Please don't

768
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,280
try lots of changes, because it's way too much for

769
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:22,119
our brains, and our heads explode when we do things

770
00:39:22,159 --> 00:39:24,840
like that. You know, I'm a very big fan that

771
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:27,679
little by little, a little will become a lot. So

772
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,760
you know, just making a small if you can. And

773
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,000
I remember a soldier I worked with who brought his

774
00:39:33,079 --> 00:39:35,360
bedtime forward by about an hour and a half because

775
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:37,800
he was staying up close to midnight, and I think

776
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:40,039
I think he changed his bedtime to about ten. He

777
00:39:40,119 --> 00:39:43,119
said his first week was not fun because his body

778
00:39:43,199 --> 00:39:45,280
just couldn't adjust and it took a little while. But

779
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:48,719
then after that he was waking up without his alarm clock,

780
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:52,119
he was feeling like exercise in the morning, he'd pack

781
00:39:52,199 --> 00:39:54,559
his lunch and go to work. He was saving money,

782
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,239
like all these flow on effects, all because as he

783
00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:59,800
went to bed a bit earlier, So it could be

784
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,000
how so, I'd say, if you're not sure, if you're

785
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:04,079
a bit doubtful, maybe give it a little try and

786
00:40:04,079 --> 00:40:04,719
see how you go.

787
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:08,400
Speaker 1: My wife is has got the skill that I wish

788
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,000
I could do, and that just she falls asleep while

789
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:14,239
we're watching TV right there on the couch. She'll just

790
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:17,039
fall asleep and I'll and then I'll watch for another

791
00:40:17,079 --> 00:40:19,039
couple of hours and then I'll go get ready for

792
00:40:19,119 --> 00:40:21,400
then I'll come out. Go Okay, it's time to go

793
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:25,519
to bed now, girls like she just just stumbles into

794
00:40:25,519 --> 00:40:26,119
bed like.

795
00:40:26,159 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 2: Ah, that lucky. You keep power, that's for sure.

796
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:33,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely superpower. You got any more of you know,

797
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:35,880
we don't have to do all ten obviously we want

798
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:39,800
people to buy the book. But let's uh, let's let's

799
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:41,079
do one or two more.

800
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:46,559
Speaker 2: Okay, So let's do uh. I think that one of

801
00:40:46,599 --> 00:40:51,719
the other things that I've always understood to be true

802
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:55,320
is that part of what helps with success in terms

803
00:40:55,639 --> 00:40:59,360
of apperforms. So let's let's go. I've got to to

804
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:03,039
in mind that we could do. First of all, in gratitude.

805
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:06,079
Gratitude is one of those things now, So gratitude get

806
00:41:06,119 --> 00:41:11,119
spoken of a lot, and often gratitude is spoken about

807
00:41:11,159 --> 00:41:15,039
because there is a considerable amount of evidence that tells

808
00:41:15,119 --> 00:41:17,679
us that when we look at happiness in people lots

809
00:41:17,679 --> 00:41:21,320
of things that can make us happy. But when we

810
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,199
look at the biggest predictors of happiness, the two biggest

811
00:41:24,199 --> 00:41:27,159
predictors of happiness, ay, they're great, they're free, and they're

812
00:41:27,199 --> 00:41:30,760
easily at our disposal. It's been grateful and it's helping

813
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:32,960
other people. Those are the two biggest things that we

814
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:34,920
can do that will just if you simply want to

815
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:37,519
let's even put the golf to one side for a moment,

816
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:39,639
but if you simply want to be happier in your life,

817
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:41,920
be grateful for the things that you have and be

818
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:44,000
grateful to the people around you. So we know that

819
00:41:44,159 --> 00:41:47,719
for sure, and there's in Australia and I'm sure it's

820
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,960
similar in other places in the world. You know, gratitude

821
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:54,519
as an intervention, if you like, is actually taught in

822
00:41:54,559 --> 00:41:57,559
the schools. It's part of we run what's called positive

823
00:41:57,679 --> 00:42:00,679
education programs, the science what goes well, and so we're

824
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:04,280
trying to teach children that being grateful is a great

825
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:06,440
way to start your day, it's a great rape feel

826
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:08,599
good about yourself. And there's lots of evidence around how

827
00:42:08,639 --> 00:42:12,440
that helps in sort of many mental health conditions and

828
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:14,440
so forth. We know it has an impact for people

829
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:18,639
with multi moderate depression. So gratitude is just a winner anyway,

830
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:20,960
just in terms of making us happier within our lies.

831
00:42:21,639 --> 00:42:25,000
But here's the extra little bit of bonus to those

832
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:27,039
of us that are athletes or those of us work

833
00:42:27,079 --> 00:42:30,000
with athletes. Is what we're seeing now in the research

834
00:42:30,199 --> 00:42:34,360
is there is also evidence to support the idea that

835
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:39,480
grateful athletes, grateful coaches, grateful teams perform better. So we're

836
00:42:39,519 --> 00:42:42,920
actually seeing gratitude as a performance enhancer. So it was

837
00:42:43,079 --> 00:42:45,320
enough in the first place that it makes you happier,

838
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,199
but what it does is it gets us closer to success.

839
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:53,400
So if you have two golfers who are similar in

840
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:56,599
levels of ability, but one of them walks through life

841
00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:59,440
with a lens of gratitude and says, you know, how

842
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:02,320
great that you know, isn't it wonderful that I get

843
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:04,760
to play on this course, that I have the time

844
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:08,039
to do it, that I have the resources to play, that,

845
00:43:08,159 --> 00:43:10,480
you know, because golf is not the cheapest of sports.

846
00:43:10,559 --> 00:43:13,199
You know that I'm financially in a way that I'm

847
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:16,519
able to do this and spend this time. How fortunate

848
00:43:16,599 --> 00:43:19,039
am I? And I'm in this? And usually I don't

849
00:43:19,079 --> 00:43:20,760
think I'll beat to too many golf courses where it's

850
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:23,960
not a pretty place to look around and so forth

851
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:26,639
as well. So how good is that? And if you

852
00:43:26,679 --> 00:43:32,000
can play that mindset to someone who by defaults and

853
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:35,239
the way I people often say to me, why is that, Joe?

854
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:37,559
Why do you think gratitude is performance enhancer? And I

855
00:43:37,559 --> 00:43:39,960
think there's probably a couple of reasons. But one of

856
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:44,039
the reasons is that, you know, have you ever met

857
00:43:44,079 --> 00:43:48,440
a grateful winder or a grateful complainer? You haven't, as

858
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:51,360
it's very you cannot be great. There's not many things

859
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:53,679
that can't do coexist and do, but you cannot be

860
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,639
grateful and complain at the same time. Like those two

861
00:43:56,639 --> 00:43:59,960
things do not go hand in hand. Try it now,

862
00:44:00,079 --> 00:44:03,880
but I've never seen it. It's okay complaining and whinging,

863
00:44:04,159 --> 00:44:07,760
getting on what I call the complain train. You know, well,

864
00:44:08,039 --> 00:44:10,599
my shots are terrible today, and I can't believe that

865
00:44:10,639 --> 00:44:12,760
it's cloudy and it's a bit hotter than I thought,

866
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,679
and you know, the greens are too short or they're

867
00:44:15,679 --> 00:44:17,840
too long, and they're da da da da daha, and

868
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:20,360
you know, and people in front are too slow, and

869
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,880
there's people going quickly too quickly behind us and all

870
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:27,280
that sort of stuff. Well, that already sounds like the

871
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:28,920
sort of person I don't really want to spend a

872
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:32,280
couple of hours with. But it also doesn't put you

873
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:34,880
in a mindset that sets you up to being open

874
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:38,159
and creative and curious, which we know of those things

875
00:44:38,199 --> 00:44:41,039
and go help us in terms of performance. So I

876
00:44:41,119 --> 00:44:43,960
and I think physiologically it makes a difference too. When

877
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:47,840
we are grateful, it's a happy place, you know. It's

878
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:50,519
it's almost, like I say, it's almost like an internal

879
00:44:50,519 --> 00:44:54,239
little sigh where we relax. Whereas if I'm not grateful,

880
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,320
if I am complaining and whinging, I'm going to exaggerate

881
00:44:57,360 --> 00:44:59,599
it for those who are watching on the YouTube. But

882
00:44:59,679 --> 00:45:02,519
if you imagine for those who are listening, I'm scrunching

883
00:45:02,599 --> 00:45:06,599
up my shoulders, I'm furrowing my brow, I'm scrunching my hands. Like,

884
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:11,920
complaining and winging is tense. So my understanding of golf is,

885
00:45:12,159 --> 00:45:14,360
you know, you're probably not going to say, well, Joe,

886
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:16,079
your next shot, you go to a really good job.

887
00:45:16,079 --> 00:45:18,000
If you completely tense up through it, you're not going

888
00:45:18,079 --> 00:45:20,880
to tell me that. So while we're thinking to get

889
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:23,199
you closer to being tense rather than being relaxed. So

890
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:26,519
gratitude is an absolute winner for us in terms of

891
00:45:26,639 --> 00:45:27,559
performance enhancement.

892
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:31,400
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and I think that's a performance enhancing drug that

893
00:45:31,519 --> 00:45:34,519
is not in jeopardy of being banned very soon.

894
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:39,960
Speaker 2: Absolutely. The thing is it's free. You can be listening

895
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:43,039
to this podcast and almost momentarily, you know, thinking about

896
00:45:43,039 --> 00:45:45,559
the things that you're grateful for. You could be standing there,

897
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,920
you know, maybe you are waiting for your tea time

898
00:45:49,039 --> 00:45:52,239
or whatever it is to start, and you could sit

899
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:56,480
there sort of you know, worrying about something you can't control,

900
00:45:56,559 --> 00:45:58,079
like the speed of the people in front of you,

901
00:45:58,199 --> 00:45:59,519
or you could go, well, this is a bit of

902
00:45:59,519 --> 00:46:01,519
extra time on the calls, and how beautiful is this?

903
00:46:02,199 --> 00:46:06,360
So that gratitude piece is really and yeah, I don't

904
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:08,119
think there's any research in it, but I'm very sure

905
00:46:08,119 --> 00:46:11,199
that grateful people that are looking as well, so maybe

906
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:12,360
as that effect.

907
00:46:12,599 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 1: Oh that's that's awesome. And I wanted to just make

908
00:46:16,039 --> 00:46:19,800
sure we cover part two of the two biggest predictors

909
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:22,440
of happiness and you and let's go to part two

910
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:22,679
on that.

911
00:46:23,079 --> 00:46:25,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, so part two on that is helping others. So

912
00:46:25,679 --> 00:46:30,320
we do know that when we lean in literally to others.

913
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:34,159
When we do things to make lives for others better

914
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:36,920
or improved, or we assist them in some sort of way,

915
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:39,599
not only does that person get the benefit of us

916
00:46:39,679 --> 00:46:42,760
about help and assistance, which is a great enough reason

917
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:45,480
to do it, but we also need to understand that

918
00:46:45,559 --> 00:46:49,159
it flows back to us. It feels good to help others.

919
00:46:49,199 --> 00:46:51,440
There's a little dope mein kick that comes with it,

920
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:53,679
and that fits in with one of the chapters in

921
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:55,440
the book, which was going to be the second point

922
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:56,760
that I was going to make. And that's why those

923
00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:00,320
two go so well hand in hand, is because we

924
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:04,400
know that people matter. And you know, if we're looking

925
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:06,599
at this in terms of our success in golf, whatever

926
00:47:06,679 --> 00:47:09,079
that might be, or our ability to perform well in it,

927
00:47:09,079 --> 00:47:11,280
it is based on those people who are around you.

928
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:14,000
Maybe part of your bolfing success is because there's other

929
00:47:14,039 --> 00:47:16,800
people in your life that helps carry the load at home. Say, say,

930
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:19,800
if you've got home commitments and maybe are partners at

931
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:23,320
home looking after people or animals or whatever it might be,

932
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:25,639
or doing something in the home that enables you then

933
00:47:25,679 --> 00:47:27,519
go and play golf, maybe you then do that in

934
00:47:27,519 --> 00:47:29,360
return for them so that they can spend their time

935
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:31,719
doing the thing that brings them joy. You know, how

936
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:35,440
you manage your relationships is really critical to your life.

937
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:38,760
And we know that when we're engaging in sporting endeavor,

938
00:47:39,159 --> 00:47:41,199
we don't do it in a silo that when we

939
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:43,800
could talk to others about it. And in golf, you know,

940
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:46,639
we've always got friends who play as well and can

941
00:47:47,159 --> 00:47:49,760
talk for hours at a time. I guess about golf

942
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,039
and the intricacies of it and how it all works,

943
00:47:52,079 --> 00:47:55,920
but I guess human connection is important for us just

944
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:58,800
as humans. But when we're playing golf, it is one

945
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:02,280
of those pursuits that we can really, you know, get

946
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:04,599
that extra benefit and in terms of what that means

947
00:48:04,639 --> 00:48:06,800
for us in terms of our mental health and our

948
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:10,920
well being, that connection with others doing a shared, hopefully

949
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:16,079
fun activity is something that's really beneficial for us. And

950
00:48:16,119 --> 00:48:18,440
we know that's another part of what will keep us

951
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:19,039
coming back.

952
00:48:20,519 --> 00:48:25,199
Speaker 1: Amazing. That's fabulous. Please tell us the names of the

953
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:27,400
books that we should go find.

954
00:48:28,119 --> 00:48:31,679
Speaker 2: Thank you. So I would start with the Elite. So

955
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:36,199
the Elite is and it's written at a sort of

956
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:40,000
grade ten level, So you know, so fourteen fifty from

957
00:48:40,119 --> 00:48:44,199
age fourteen fifteen is probably a time when you could

958
00:48:44,199 --> 00:48:46,400
be reading the book. And the nice thing about The

959
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:48,760
Elite is we know that people learn and read and

960
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:50,960
consume information in different ways. So I've got it there

961
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:54,159
as paperback, as an ebook, and also as an audiobook,

962
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:56,519
and it is actually me I did Actually it was

963
00:48:56,519 --> 00:48:58,280
the longest weekend of my life when I did it,

964
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:02,000
but I recorded the audiobook that is also that was

965
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:04,320
also a test of perseverance. So I've got the Elite.

966
00:49:05,039 --> 00:49:07,079
Then in twenty twenty, I wrote a book called In

967
00:49:07,119 --> 00:49:10,360
the Grandstand and that is a parent's survival guide for

968
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:15,159
teen sports, so that there's lots involved in sports parenting.

969
00:49:15,199 --> 00:49:17,000
So that was actually you can probably guess the age

970
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:19,280
of my own children at the time that I wrote

971
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:23,159
that book. I also wrote an interactive journal which is

972
00:49:23,159 --> 00:49:26,400
called The game Plan, and the game Plan goes through

973
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:29,239
the five predictors of high performance, and we've actually talked

974
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:32,719
about some of them on the episode today. And that

975
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:35,920
journal is designed as I think that works best as

976
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:39,119
the paperbacks then you can actually write in it. But

977
00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:41,559
what I've also put in that is I've put I

978
00:49:41,559 --> 00:49:44,079
think there's about twenty five QR codes in there that

979
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:48,239
link to videos explaining concepts, so it's an extra little

980
00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:51,559
bit of individual creating. I guess through that. Last year,

981
00:49:51,639 --> 00:49:56,719
I wrote a book specifically for athletes and performers called Belief,

982
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:01,280
and that's about building unshakable confidence. So I wrote a

983
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:06,079
book called Belief, and if I may show it hot

984
00:50:06,119 --> 00:50:08,440
off the press is my new book, The Whistleblower. So

985
00:50:08,599 --> 00:50:12,880
it is a mental toughness rule book for officials, umpires,

986
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:16,800
and referees. So motivated by the fact that I've worked

987
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:19,239
with a lot of referees and officials over the years,

988
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:22,800
because we do know that it's a mentally challenging and

989
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:25,880
tough area to be in. And also it's a little

990
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:28,159
bit of a project of the heart because both of

991
00:50:28,199 --> 00:50:33,119
my sons are referees in their own sports, so that's

992
00:50:33,159 --> 00:50:36,320
what they've gone down, and well both of them have

993
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:39,360
actually gone down in the elite pathway in refereeing and officiating.

994
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:42,519
So and look, I think a few people have read

995
00:50:42,519 --> 00:50:44,559
it and said to me, this is actually for anyone, Joe,

996
00:50:44,599 --> 00:50:46,960
and I said, I know, but I've specifically written it

997
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:48,920
for referees. So if you're not a referee, I want

998
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:50,599
to read it, you'll just have to translate it in

999
00:50:50,639 --> 00:50:53,239
your head. But all the principles apply. And I think

1000
00:50:53,559 --> 00:50:56,320
that's the thing, isn't it, Fred That the mental side

1001
00:50:56,519 --> 00:51:00,320
of what it is to play golf applies across our lives.

1002
00:51:00,559 --> 00:51:03,000
So if we're working on our mental skills in our life,

1003
00:51:03,159 --> 00:51:05,199
it will translate across to what's happening for us in

1004
00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:07,960
golf as well, So it goes both ways.

1005
00:51:08,519 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, and tell us about how we can follow you

1006
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:14,880
or your URL and social media.

1007
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:17,360
Speaker 2: Thank you. So if you can remember my name, you

1008
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:20,679
can find me. So it's doctor Joe lukens Jo and

1009
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:23,760
that's l u k i NS so I have that

1010
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:25,719
and I go under that for all my socials. So

1011
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:30,440
I'm on Facebook, LinkedIn Instagram. My children tell me I

1012
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:35,719
have a fairly average TikTok following. Aparently I could be

1013
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:38,320
better at that, So I just tell them every expert

1014
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:40,440
was once a beginner, and I'm still a beginner.

1015
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:41,480
Speaker 1: There you go.

1016
00:51:41,679 --> 00:51:44,519
Speaker 2: And certainly, in terms of finding the books, they're available

1017
00:51:44,559 --> 00:51:46,639
on all the usual platforms of books. So wherever you

1018
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:49,119
like to consume your books, wherever you like to get

1019
00:51:49,119 --> 00:51:52,400
them from, maybe you've got a great indie bookstore nearby

1020
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:54,119
that can get them in for you. If not, some

1021
00:51:54,159 --> 00:51:57,320
of the larger platforms can also find them for you.

1022
00:51:57,440 --> 00:51:59,719
So Fred, thank you for allowing me to share that

1023
00:52:00,079 --> 00:52:01,000
with the listeners.

1024
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:05,199
Speaker 1: Well, thank you for sharing your knowledge and your experience

1025
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:08,559
and your insights with us. We really appreciate it and

1026
00:52:08,639 --> 00:52:10,800
it was a great conversation. I really learned a lot.

1027
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:12,199
Speaker 2: Thanks Grett, Thank you, Fred,