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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.

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Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,

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and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my

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experience as the brother of a murder victim to help

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other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book

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on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co

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administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with

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Kristin Dilly.

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Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher,

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a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the

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social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway

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Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Mind Over Murderer. I'm Bill Thomas and Kristin

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Dilley is on a well deserved vacation, which means I'm

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flying this ship solo and perhaps almost blind. I don't know,

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we'll find out. Join us today is Wendy Reid, retired

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investigator who's very prominently featured in the new Burden of

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Proof documentary on HBO, which discusses the Jennifer Pendos case.

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So Wendy, welcome, to mind over murder.

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Speaker 4: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 2: So, before we get into the Jennifer Pendos case, Wendy,

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tell us a little bit about yourself, about where you

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grew up. You and I were discovering that we're both

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I don't know if you like the word brat, but

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we're both service brats. Tell us a little bit about

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your life, where you're from, that sort of thing.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I grew up in a military family. My dad

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was in the Coast Guard, so we actually grew up

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in Yorktown, which is very close to Williamsburg. I lived

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there for most of my childhood up until almost middle school.

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Moved to Boston. I lived on kit Cood and then

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Saint Louis and graduated high school and went to college,

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and then I joined the Air Force. My dad wouldn't

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let me join the Coast Guard. He said everywhere he

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went to he was always put up in Air Force billeting,

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and we lived on Air Force bases, and he said

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they treat their people the best. My intention was to

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go in for four years and used that to go

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to college, and that's what I did. I lived in

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Montana and then I separated, got out and became a

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police officer.

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Speaker 2: So then how many years were you actually in the

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Air Force? Was it just the four?

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Speaker 4: Just the four? Yeah, I knew, and my mom said,

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I always said that I was going to be a

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police officer when I grew up, and I knew going in,

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I wanted to do it for four years, get the

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training and the education, and then come back and be

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a police officer.

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Speaker 2: Before we get into that, let me jump back to

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something here. Your dad was assigned to Saint Louis. What

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kind of coast guard do we have in Saint Louis.

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I thought that was on the Missus.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, they actually do a lot on the Mississippi River. Yeah,

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and he was at the headquarters there. He was a

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master chief my whole life. He was a master chief.

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He was never on a boat when I was alive.

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Speaker 2: Oh, he wasn't.

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Speaker 4: Oh he did spend some time up at Sue Saint

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Marie on a boat when he first enlisted. But yeah,

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during my lifetime, he was always at headquarters buildings.

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Speaker 2: So he was directing people that were on boats. But

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when you're the master chief, you're pretty high up, so

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you're one of the people that's in charge. Correct, Yeah,

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would you go to his office and see what it

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was like when your father was at work or were

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you exposed to that side of things.

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Speaker 4: Oh? Absolutely. When we lived in Boston, their office had

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like season tickets to the Bruins.

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Speaker 2: Oh nice, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 4: And they would like raffle the tickets off, and when

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people could and go, they would give him to my dad.

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So I would actually go up with them in the

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morning and spend the day, and then we'd go to

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the game that night.

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Speaker 2: Oh how fun? Is this the old Boston Garden or

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am I dating myself now?

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Speaker 4: It was the old Garden? Yeah, yeah, that's awesome.

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Speaker 2: Of course, my dad was a naval officer and his

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final active duty slot was running the Armed Forces Police

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Department out of the old Boston Navy Yard. Okay, and

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this was his career was winding down and he was

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actually moving towards a career in academia. This was during

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the time frame of the Boston Bruins Bobby Or. That

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team was red hot, and we moved back to Lowell, Massachusetts,

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up north of Boston as we were heading into high school.

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So the Bruins were a really big deal back then.

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Every kid in New England had Bobby Or flying through

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the air vertically having just scored yet another All for

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the Bruins, and we would watch the Bruins on television,

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and we got a chance to go to the old

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Boston Garden several times, and then of course later as

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I got to be a teenager, that would be the

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place we'd go to see concerts. I'm sure the New

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Boston Garden is great, but I still have fond memories

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of We would take the train into North Station and

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then the arena was upstairs, and you go up these

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long winding ramps, huh to see the Bruins and the

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Celtics play there.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. It was quite the experience, that's for sure.

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Speaker 2: And then you were saying that it was quite a

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contrast for you then, to go from a relatively small

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high school on Cape Cod to a big high school

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in Saint Louis.

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Speaker 4: It was. Yeah. I have conversations sometimes with people that

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they live in the same area of their whole entire

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life and they don't know anything different, and I really

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sometimes I long for that in that sense of home.

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But at the same time, moving as much as we did,

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I was exposed to so much diversity in different people

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and different cultures, and I see it as a blessing

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now as an adult. I hated it as a kid.

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Every time you made friends, you moved, But now it's

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just I'm so thankful for the experiences that I was

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able to have.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we really liked it. There were four kids in

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my family, and yes, it is hard to say goodbye

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to your friends, but we looked upon it as an adventure.

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My dad would come home every two years back then,

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typically towards the end of the school year, and we'd

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have a family meeting, and then he would tell us

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where we were going to move. And this is before

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the internet. We would then go typically we still had

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a few weeks left in school, and of course we

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would go to the library a lot. We'd go and

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read about the new place we were going. I remember

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we look at pictures and get out the encyclopedia and

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look at maps. My mom and dad would show us

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where we were going to be living. It was an adventure.

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And then the four of us as kids, three boys

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and one girl, my younger sister Kathy, we'd pulled together

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and we'd be our own kind of gang. But a

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lot of times when we were moving, and I'm not

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sure if this happened as much for you. We would

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be moving to places where there were lots of other

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military kids, so they had a sense of the drill,

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and they also knew that it was important to make

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friends and to make friends quickly and to be welcoming

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of the new kids. Right in one or two places,

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we moved to towns where there were not a lot

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of other military kids, and it was really noticeable. We

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moved to Deptford, New Jersey, because there was no housing

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available on the Philadelphia Naval Base, so we were across

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the river in suburban New Jersey, and these kids mostly

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had all grown up in that town, and they were

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incredibly unfriendly. They even called my older brother, Richard, Hawaii

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because we had lived in Hawaii before then, just and

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they said where are you from? And he said Hawaii,

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which is true. They actually didn't even call him by

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his name, Richard. They called him Hawaii because they'd never

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been anybody. Now here's a guy with red hair and

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fair skin and blue eyes. It wasn't like he was

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a native of the Hawaiian Islands. The kids were super unfriendly,

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just not nice. A few months later, housing became available

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on the Philadelphia Naval Base, and we moved again, and

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the kids there, who were all Navy and Marine Corps kids,

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they were like very welcoming. They knew what it was

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like to be the new kid. That would happen every

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couple of years in most examples. So now you're the

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kid unlike most of us, who knew what she wanted

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to do. You wanted to be in law enforcement. How

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did you get into law enforcement when you got out

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of the Air Force.

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Speaker 4: I came back to Virginia and I ended up applying

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at a small local sheriff's office and I actually worked

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in the jail there for a couple of years, and

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then I taught the DARE program. I had gone to

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a school and met a guy who worked with James

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City Police Department, and he just went on and on

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about how great of a department it was and how

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I should go over and work for them, and he

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sent me an application and I put in and that

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was it. That's how I ended up with James City.

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Speaker 2: So what year is it that you're joining the James City,

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Virginia Police Department.

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Speaker 4: It was two thousand and two when I got hired

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in July of two thousand and two.

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Speaker 2: And now help us out for those of us that

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are not from Virginia, which includes me. Kristin Dilly, my

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podcast partner, would laugh. Why do we call this place

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James City County. It's such an odd little name.

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Speaker 4: I have no idea. It's a very odd name. Yeah,

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but it.

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Speaker 2: Is a county police department, correct for James City County,

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which is not a city but a county.

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Speaker 4: Correct. Okay, Yeah, it pretty much surrounds the city of Williamsburg.

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Williamsburg is a super small city, and then James City

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County surrounds Williamsburg. You would think I would know the

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story of why it is all that, but I do not.

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Speaker 2: So does Williamsburg, Virginia have its own police force?

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Speaker 4: They do, Yeah, they Williamsburg Police Department.

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Speaker 2: And so James City County is the surrounding area is

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around Williamsburg.

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Speaker 4: Correct?

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Speaker 2: Is there cross jurisdiction or would you hand something off

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to Williamsburg PD if it was within the city limits.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, if it's within the city, then the Williamsburg Police

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Department would handle it. Yeah. And I mean it's a

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weird area because there's also York County, So you can

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walk half a mile and step foot in James City County,

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Williamsburg and York County. There are so many places where

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one side of the road is York County and the

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other's James City, and there's so much that intertwines. Yeah,

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if it happens in the city of Williamsburg, then the

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Williamsburg Police Department would handle it. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: The Jennifer Pendos case starts in February nineteen eighty seven,

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with the disappearance of this fifteen year old girl from

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the Kings Mill Resort slash housing development. Tell us about

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your involvement with the case. So you're at the James

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City County Police Department. How did you first hear about

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the Pandos case and then how did you get involved officially?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, there was a bulletin board in our police department

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that important information would be posted on. And one day

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I saw like a missing person's poster and it was

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for Jennifer and I had her picture on there and

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that she had disappeared in eighty seven, and I was

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just like, that's weird. I'd never heard of it. I

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didn't know anything about it. It was just this poster

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on the law and I had been slated to go

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to the Investigations Division at that point. So I talked

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with the major in charge of the investigations division and said, Hey,

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what's the deal with this case? And can I look

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at it? And he's yeah, sure, and he said the

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case file's missing, so we don't really know a whole lot.

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In January of two thousand and six is when I

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went to investigations, and it was shortly after that I

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was officially assigned the case.

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Speaker 2: Did you ask for the Pando's case as a result

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of that interest?

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Speaker 4: I did, Yeah, I asked to work the case.

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Speaker 2: It's two thousand and six. That case took place originally

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in nineteen eighty seven. It's probably considered a cold case

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at this point. I don't know if people used that expression,

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did they at the time.

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Speaker 4: I don't remember specifically if it was classified as a

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cold case. We didn't have a cold case division at

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that point. I know it was being worked on sporadically,

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but no, there was no cold case division. Later one

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was developed and I was assigned to that, but at

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the time there was no cold case division. But that

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was certainly what I would consider a cold case for sure.

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Speaker 2: Now, what other sorts of cases were you working when

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you started in investigations. In two thousand and.

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Speaker 4: Six, I was assigned to basically violent crimes, murders, ripe, robbery,

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things of that sort.

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Speaker 2: Let's talk about this missing case file. This figures prominently

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in the Burden of Proof documentary that's just made its

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debut on HBO. Oh what did people say about the

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missing case file? First of all, can you give us

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a rough idea? How big would a case file be?

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Speaker 4: For that case? You would expect probably thirty pieces of

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paper fifty pieces of paper in it, depending on what

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the initial response was from the police department when she

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went missing. You would definitely expect there to be some

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substance to that case file.

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Speaker 2: Would it be in a file folder or a box

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or they called us things red wells that are expandable.

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What would it physically look like?

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Speaker 4: Just a Manila folder? Our records division at that point, unfortunately,

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was not what I would call secure. Anybody could walk

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in there.

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Speaker 2: Ouch.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. It was before anything was electronic, So all there

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was the paper or copies of the file. The procedure

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to get a file was supposed to be you would

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go and request the file and you would have to

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sign it out. There was only a clipboard next to

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the door and you would get the file and then

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write your name and the date and what file you have.

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But in order for that to work, it's dependent on

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people actually doing what they're supposed to. Unfortunately, with there

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not being any accountability to that, it went missing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and unlike cop shows that we watch on TV

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and enjoy, there isn't somebody there at the door, if

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you will, checking to make sure that people signed the

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files in and out.

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Speaker 4: No, absolutely not. It was. There was a desk there

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for the record's clerk, but there was only one of

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them and she couldn't be there all the time, so

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it was basically left up to the integrity of the

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person to do what they were supposed to do.

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Speaker 2: And it's like, I'm not trying to be two pointed here,

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it sounds like things work sloppy back then, you said

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not secure. Were people pretty investigators and others? Were they

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pretty informal about going in taking a look at a file,

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bringing it back, but not necessarily doing the whole clipboard thing.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, Yeah, it was very lax. It was a small

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department at that point. There was less than one hundred

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officers for the entire department. Yeah, and I think everybody

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was just complacent and oh, that won't happen, or oh,

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I'll put it back when I'm done with it, And

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unfortunately that didn't happen. And there were lots of theories

293
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on what happened to the case file, some pretty outlandish,

294
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but yeah, it was definitely a challenge not.

295
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Speaker 2: Having that what's an outlandish theory about what might have

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happened to the case file.

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Speaker 4: One of the avenue that we did explore, we were

298
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told that Ron Pandos, Jennifer's father, played golf with the

299
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head of security from Kingsmill. Kings Mill, where the Pandos

300
00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:18,000
has lived, has his own security division. Now it's a

301
00:17:18,039 --> 00:17:21,000
police department, but at that point I believe it was

302
00:17:21,079 --> 00:17:24,240
only security. But we were told that Ron golfed with

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00:17:24,519 --> 00:17:27,680
the head of security there and it just so happened

304
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that his wife, when Jennifer disappeared, was the head of

305
00:17:32,039 --> 00:17:36,000
the record's division or the James City Police Department. So

306
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one of the theories was through Ron's relationship with the

307
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head of security, he had his wife take the file

308
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to help Ron and Margie, she was the record's clerk

309
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from then. She was interviewed and denied having any part

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of that, but yeah, that was one of the one

311
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of the theories of what happened to the case file.

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Speaker 2: Does that se implausible but.

313
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Speaker 4: It is plausible. Yeah, it could have happened, But I

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00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:07,640
do not believe that's what happened.

315
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Speaker 2: At all now, although in the television series, I believe

316
00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,039
it's Cynthia Hill, the director of the film, who was

317
00:18:15,079 --> 00:18:19,200
mostly off camera. But someone asks you a question, and

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00:18:19,599 --> 00:18:23,440
in my opinion, having watched plenty of Truth Crime, you

319
00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:28,480
appear embarrassed for the department. Oh absolutely, you indicate as such.

320
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How did you feel when you found out that the

321
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file had magically reappeared.

322
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Speaker 4: It's mixed feelings. I still remember exactly where I was

323
00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,559
when I got the phone call and what I was doing,

324
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and I was elated when I got the phone call

325
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saying the file had been found. I thought, for sure

326
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that would open up a lot of things that we

327
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didn't know and give us more opportunity for investigation. I

328
00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:00,680
was no longer assigned to the case. I had been

329
00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:04,039
promoted and was a supervisor in the patrol division at

330
00:19:04,039 --> 00:19:06,680
that point, so I wasn't working the case, but I

331
00:19:06,759 --> 00:19:09,839
was still I was so excited. And then when that

332
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,519
excitement died down. It was like, what in the world happened?

333
00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:14,680
That's just crazy.

334
00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:21,440
Speaker 2: Was there ever an adequate explanation for where this case

335
00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:24,279
file went? How long a period of time was the

336
00:19:24,319 --> 00:19:27,519
file in the Pendos case missing? Would you say, oh.

337
00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:30,880
Speaker 4: Gosh, when I went to investigations in two thousand and

338
00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,519
six it was gone. I don't know how long before

339
00:19:33,559 --> 00:19:36,839
that it had been gone, And I'd say it was

340
00:19:37,039 --> 00:19:42,400
probably twenty sixteen when it was found.

341
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Speaker 2: So we're talking about a decade maybe this file was

342
00:19:46,599 --> 00:19:51,519
quote unquote missing. Yeah, what were the circumstances of when

343
00:19:51,559 --> 00:19:54,680
the file was found? As you understand it.

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Speaker 4: So, we had been in the we called the old

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00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:01,920
police department in tw more than six, very small building,

346
00:20:02,599 --> 00:20:06,079
no control over who went into records who didn't. When

347
00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:09,960
I was assigned the case and the case file was missing,

348
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I had met with the head of the records division

349
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at the time. She searched the entire records room. Basically

350
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they were paper boxes full of minili folders with the

351
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case files in it. She searched through every single box,

352
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every single file cabinet. Couldn't find it. A few years later,

353
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we had a new police department built and were moving

354
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from the old police department to the new one. During

355
00:20:38,559 --> 00:20:42,279
that time, she had told me they went through every

356
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single file. She said they opened up the files and

357
00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:49,079
actually looked in them to make sure maybe the panda's

358
00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:54,279
case accidentally got stuffed inside and mislabeled. So they went

359
00:20:54,319 --> 00:20:57,839
through every file, every box before they moved, and then

360
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when they were unpacking the files in the new building

361
00:21:00,799 --> 00:21:04,279
they also went through them again and there was no

362
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,799
sign of the case file. So it had been searched

363
00:21:07,839 --> 00:21:12,599
for in the record's division three times, pretty thoroughly, and

364
00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:16,359
then in the new department. The record's division is accessed

365
00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:18,160
with a key card, so there is a little more

366
00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:22,519
accountability for it. And by that time we were mostly electronic.

367
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You could access what you needed on the computer instead

368
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of having to get the actual hard copy of the file.

369
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What I was told was one day someone in the

370
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record's division went and opened up one of the paper

371
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boxes and there it was just sitting right flat on top,

372
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not as you would think if there's fifty files in

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a paper box, they're all vertical so you can read

374
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the tabs on the files right, But this was laid

375
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across the top, so pretty obvious. There was no investigation

376
00:21:56,359 --> 00:22:00,759
as to what happened. There were theories of what happened.

377
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:05,480
My personal opinion is someone was complacent. They went and

378
00:22:05,519 --> 00:22:08,960
got the file to actually do something with it, and

379
00:22:09,079 --> 00:22:13,039
probably stuck it in their desk or their file cabinet.

380
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:19,359
And there was a couple people retiring around that time investigations,

381
00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:23,240
and in my opinion is that someone found it in

382
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:29,400
their belongings and lacked the integrity to stand up and say, hey,

383
00:22:29,759 --> 00:22:32,759
my bad, I have this and just stuck it in there,

384
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knowing that someone would eventually run into it.

385
00:22:35,839 --> 00:22:40,799
Speaker 2: Not necessarily malevolent, just perhaps sloppy. And as you said,

386
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,400
it was very informal back in the day. Someone went

387
00:22:43,599 --> 00:22:45,200
and got a file and they'd take it back to

388
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,599
their desk, and maybe they were working the case actively.

389
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,039
I was thinking the same thing, and yeah, you can

390
00:22:52,079 --> 00:22:55,000
go with all the ron pandos playing golf with the

391
00:22:55,039 --> 00:22:58,400
head of security theories you want, but I think most

392
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:02,200
of the time it's sort of screw up, if you will.

393
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:06,359
Was someone accidentally sticks the case file and as you

394
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,160
described it, it wasn't that large. It wasn't like it

395
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:12,640
was a banker's box full of files. It was a

396
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,880
Manilla folder with documents in it. Which could have been misplaced.

397
00:23:17,759 --> 00:23:21,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, I definitely don't believe it was anything malicious, Like

398
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:27,960
you said, I think it was sloppy, unprofessional, just lax. Yeah,

399
00:23:28,079 --> 00:23:30,799
it's just it's so embarrassing, it really is.

400
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,599
Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back

401
00:23:34,839 --> 00:23:43,319
after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at

402
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:47,039
mindover Murder, switching gears for a second. One of our

403
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:51,359
takeaways Kristen and mine from watching the documentary was that

404
00:23:51,519 --> 00:23:56,480
we felt that Ron and Margy Pendo's odd response. I

405
00:23:56,519 --> 00:23:58,519
will call it what I believe it to be, and

406
00:23:58,599 --> 00:24:02,480
remember we lived through this with my sister Kathy's murder.

407
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:07,559
I felt like the Pandos's response, as described in the

408
00:24:07,599 --> 00:24:11,079
television series and all the articles we read to Jennifer's

409
00:24:11,079 --> 00:24:17,359
disappearance was extremely odd. Do you feel that their response

410
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:23,119
to Jennifer's disappearance made them look like suspects, particularly Ron

411
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:24,920
the father from the beginning?

412
00:24:25,599 --> 00:24:28,880
Speaker 4: Absolutely. When I say from the beginning, I take that

413
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,480
as when I got it, So it's the beginning for me. Yeah,

414
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:37,640
And I didn't know what their responses and reactions were

415
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:41,559
when it initially occurred in nineteen eighty seven, but yeah,

416
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,920
what I had to go off of was a lot

417
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:51,319
of people's memories from nineteen years before, and probably a

418
00:24:51,319 --> 00:24:53,759
lot of like the game of telephone. I heard this

419
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,440
and I heard that, and yeah, the things I was

420
00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:01,680
hearing was definitely suspicious that they responded in the way

421
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,519
they did or didn't respond, Yeah, it was. It definitely

422
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:09,160
made it seem suspicious. And I think a lot of

423
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:14,839
times we look at things from our own perspective and

424
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:19,920
our own experiences, and everybody's different and are going to

425
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,440
have different reactions to things, and I think sometimes we

426
00:25:23,559 --> 00:25:26,039
get stuck in the mindset of that's not what I

427
00:25:26,079 --> 00:25:29,519
would have done, So that's weird. Yeah, but yeah, a

428
00:25:29,519 --> 00:25:33,200
lot of things that they did it did seem suspicious

429
00:25:33,319 --> 00:25:37,799
and cast a lot of doubt onto what their involvement was.

430
00:25:38,799 --> 00:25:42,359
Speaker 2: One of the things that really shocked us was as

431
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,920
the series unfolds, and of course, the four part television

432
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:49,640
series is told roughly in chronological order, and it's amazing

433
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:54,920
to see footage from investigations and interviews all the way

434
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:58,119
back to twenty sixteen, if my memory serves, But as

435
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:04,880
the story unfold, it appears that Margie Jennifer's mother actually

436
00:26:05,079 --> 00:26:10,880
has additional valuable pieces of evidence in her possession that

437
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,720
have never been turned over to law enforcement. For example,

438
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,960
if I understood the series correctly, they had the original

439
00:26:19,079 --> 00:26:23,319
copy of the note correct that was left, so that

440
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,039
meant that law enforcement had a photocopy of it.

441
00:26:26,759 --> 00:26:32,799
Speaker 4: Yeah. Honestly, I don't remember offhand if there was a

442
00:26:32,839 --> 00:26:36,000
photo copy of the note in the original pace file

443
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:40,160
that ended up being located, but yeah, she definitely had

444
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:44,599
the origin the original note. Yeah.

445
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:49,440
Speaker 2: And then later on these letters to and from Jennifer,

446
00:26:49,519 --> 00:26:52,880
their teenage daughter, are produced, and they are in a

447
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,759
box that Margie has been holding on to for more

448
00:26:56,799 --> 00:27:01,559
than thirty years. This struck me as pro foundly odd,

449
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,960
particularly since so much of the discussion of the case

450
00:27:06,319 --> 00:27:09,240
and this note that was found at the time of

451
00:27:09,319 --> 00:27:13,000
Jennifer's disappearance that switches back and forth between first and

452
00:27:13,079 --> 00:27:15,519
third person, so some of it sounds like it's written

453
00:27:15,519 --> 00:27:18,079
by Jennifer, some of it sounds like it's written by

454
00:27:18,079 --> 00:27:24,559
someone else. Since language and handwriting end up being so pivotal,

455
00:27:25,319 --> 00:27:29,440
I was baffled that Margie would be sitting on letters

456
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:33,359
to and from her daughter for over thirty years without

457
00:27:33,519 --> 00:27:38,200
ever thinking I should show these to the investigators. How

458
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:39,079
did you feel.

459
00:27:38,799 --> 00:27:46,599
Speaker 4: About that, Yeah, it was frustrating. Marchie was never super forthcoming.

460
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:52,559
She would provide things if they were specifically asked for,

461
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:57,519
but yeah, there was no urgency on her part to

462
00:27:57,599 --> 00:28:02,640
be proactive in the investigation. When I originally started talking

463
00:28:02,759 --> 00:28:06,839
to her and Stephen, I asked about physical abuse in

464
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:11,200
the home and abuse in the home and was told no,

465
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:15,359
there was none, and I can understand not wanting to

466
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,880
admit that, but at the same time, in order to

467
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,640
effectively work a case, you have to have the truth.

468
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:28,119
So it was frustrating to find out later the extent

469
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:30,640
of the abuse that was happening in the home and

470
00:28:30,759 --> 00:28:34,039
find out a lot of things that would have been

471
00:28:34,079 --> 00:28:37,759
helpful if I would have had them initially during the investigation.

472
00:28:38,519 --> 00:28:42,119
Speaker 2: Did you feel that Stephen was also not forthcoming.

473
00:28:42,839 --> 00:28:47,079
Speaker 4: I he had said initially there wasn't any abuse in

474
00:28:47,119 --> 00:28:49,680
the home, and I think that if you grow up

475
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:55,680
in a certain environment that that becomes your reality. And

476
00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:00,519
maybe at the time he didn't consider that to be abuse.

477
00:29:01,839 --> 00:29:06,240
I don't know, or maybe it was just I fully

478
00:29:06,319 --> 00:29:09,640
remember sitting in Margie's living room with her and Stephen,

479
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:11,960
and I asked, Stephen, what do you think happened to

480
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,480
your sister, And he said, she ran away? And I said,

481
00:29:15,519 --> 00:29:17,559
why do you think that? And he said, I don't

482
00:29:17,559 --> 00:29:21,200
have any reason to believe otherwise. So I think he

483
00:29:21,319 --> 00:29:24,039
was in the dark for all of those years, and

484
00:29:24,599 --> 00:29:29,480
I wouldn't say that he wasn't forthcoming. I think probably

485
00:29:29,519 --> 00:29:33,319
initially he didn't maybe believe that what he had gone

486
00:29:33,359 --> 00:29:38,640
through was abuse, because that was just his reality growing up.

487
00:29:39,519 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 2: One of the fascinating aspects of Burnaproof is watching Stephen's

488
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:49,000
view of the case change over the years. He seems

489
00:29:49,519 --> 00:29:53,519
much more willing now to admit that his father was

490
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:59,079
incredibly abusive physically and emotionally, but that maybe not where

491
00:29:59,119 --> 00:30:03,119
he was as a younger man. At some point he

492
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,519
said something about everything I was led to believe in

493
00:30:06,599 --> 00:30:09,359
the first twenty two years of this case is wrong.

494
00:30:10,079 --> 00:30:14,319
So that's a big revelation to see him go through

495
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:19,079
and his viewpoint that first of all, my sister ran away,

496
00:30:19,599 --> 00:30:24,039
and then later thinking for years it would appear that

497
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:28,440
his father is directly responsible for his sister's disappearance and

498
00:30:28,559 --> 00:30:32,079
likely murder, and that his mother is involved in a

499
00:30:32,119 --> 00:30:36,359
cover up or is complicit somehow, and then later you

500
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:40,559
begin to see that He's come around, as have others,

501
00:30:40,759 --> 00:30:43,839
to the view that wait a minute, those stories are

502
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:48,440
all wrong. She didn't run away. Perhaps Ron Pandos, the

503
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:53,039
father is not involved in her disappearance, unlikely homicide, which

504
00:30:53,079 --> 00:30:58,519
steers us to other suspects. But watching that journey, and

505
00:30:58,559 --> 00:31:01,079
I'm sure there are hundreds of hours of footage of

506
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:06,119
Stephen and you and so many other people all taking

507
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:10,680
this personal and investigative journey. It's one of the most

508
00:31:10,759 --> 00:31:14,720
interesting aspects of the show. Do you think it would

509
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,599
have made a difference if law enforcement, for example, had

510
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,519
had the original note?

511
00:31:21,599 --> 00:31:23,559
Speaker 4: Absolutely?

512
00:31:24,119 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I worry though. I agree with you, But I

513
00:31:28,519 --> 00:31:31,559
worry though that the original note would have been put

514
00:31:31,599 --> 00:31:37,359
away accidentally, let's say in the legendary missing file folder

515
00:31:38,039 --> 00:31:41,640
for all of those years, and there were no backups

516
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,559
or duplicates of much of this material. Is that a

517
00:31:44,599 --> 00:31:45,240
fair statement.

518
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 4: Yes, Yeah, that's definitely a fair statement.

519
00:31:49,559 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 2: Our situations like that better now, Wendy than they were

520
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,839
back then. In terms of I WinCE when I hear about, oh,

521
00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,920
these documents are missing, and I think to myself, there's

522
00:32:00,119 --> 00:32:03,759
no extra copy, there's no electronic copy, there's no nothing.

523
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,559
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's definitely better now. I know that, especially with

524
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:14,279
the way that technology has advanced over the last fifteen

525
00:32:14,359 --> 00:32:17,920
years or so. Now reports are all done on the

526
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:23,319
computer and they're automatically just uploaded and there's an electronic

527
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:27,880
copy of it, where when Jennifer disappeared it was just handwritten,

528
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:32,359
and if something happened to the copy, you've got a lot.

529
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:37,240
So it's definitely I think much more of the secure

530
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:38,400
situation now.

531
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,799
Speaker 2: So here's a question for you, if you were to

532
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,759
start working this case today, where would you start.

533
00:32:46,759 --> 00:32:49,519
Speaker 4: If I had all of the information, I would probably

534
00:32:49,559 --> 00:32:53,160
start where I started before, with the parents, but there

535
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,000
was also information in that case that leads you to

536
00:32:56,079 --> 00:32:59,680
other places too that I didn't have that information when

537
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:03,599
I work it. Yeah, I would still definitely look at

538
00:33:03,599 --> 00:33:07,480
the parents, because there's still been a lot of suspicious

539
00:33:07,519 --> 00:33:10,799
things that have happened with the parents, with things that

540
00:33:10,839 --> 00:33:13,960
they have said and things that have happened during the investigation.

541
00:33:14,079 --> 00:33:17,079
So yeah, I would still start with them, but there

542
00:33:17,119 --> 00:33:22,640
were definitely more investigative avenues that would have been approached.

543
00:33:23,599 --> 00:33:26,519
Speaker 2: Our investigators in the Colonial Parkway murders have said to

544
00:33:26,559 --> 00:33:30,599
me over the years, Bill, no one's really cleared in

545
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:34,519
a homicide investigation, and that's I don't think Jennifer's walking

546
00:33:34,559 --> 00:33:38,559
through the door tomorrow, so I believe this is a homicide.

547
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:43,160
So no one's really cleared until the murder is cleared.

548
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,279
That is, we've identified a suspect and brought him or

549
00:33:46,359 --> 00:33:49,440
hurt to trial. As I understand it, people are on

550
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,720
the likely list, that is, the short list of people

551
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,559
who are most likely suspects, and the less likely list.

552
00:33:57,079 --> 00:34:01,359
Ron Pandos, Margie Pandos and other have been mentioned as

553
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:05,359
potential suspects, and it makes perfect sense. Do you feel

554
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:09,559
like the Pendo's parents would be on that less likely list?

555
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:13,760
Speaker 4: At this point when you talk to people that know

556
00:34:14,599 --> 00:34:19,599
the case, it seems pretty split that some people, some

557
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:23,920
investigators and some officers believe yeah, the parents may have

558
00:34:24,039 --> 00:34:26,840
something to do with it, and others believe no, it's

559
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:32,159
the boyfriend. And I think there's evidence that points to

560
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:36,679
all of them less likely or more likely. It's hard

561
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:40,400
to say, really. If it were to go to court, say,

562
00:34:40,679 --> 00:34:43,360
if the boyfriend was charged, I think it would be

563
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,719
super hard to get a conviction because of just the

564
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:52,039
circumstantial evidence against the parents and the doubt that would raise,

565
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,960
the same as if Ron were to be charged and

566
00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:01,000
go to court, there's evidence and circumstantial evidence events against

567
00:35:01,079 --> 00:35:05,719
the boyfriend that would lead to doubt. So it's a

568
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:10,280
hard question to answer as far as less likely suspects.

569
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:14,360
I think with the information now, it's just there's a

570
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,400
likelihood that anybody could have done it.

571
00:35:18,599 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 2: Wow, So you find yourself in a very frustrating place

572
00:35:22,159 --> 00:35:24,519
even now in twenty twenty three.

573
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 4: Absolutely, yeah, I just there's clues pointing to different people,

574
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:38,960
and it's hard to really settle on a belief as

575
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:40,760
to who did it.

576
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 2: It's referenced in this series that you were working on

577
00:35:44,079 --> 00:35:47,840
a book on the Jennifer Pandos disappearance. Are you still

578
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:48,840
working on a book?

579
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:55,079
Speaker 4: I am. We've had to start over a couple of times. Initially,

580
00:35:55,559 --> 00:35:59,639
what I wanted to do was tell my story of

581
00:36:00,159 --> 00:36:04,440
my journey along working this case and what I ended

582
00:36:04,519 --> 00:36:09,679
up learning about Jennifer. And then when the documentary came along,

583
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,920
they delved into that, and I found that what I

584
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,920
revealed during interviews with them, and a lot of that

585
00:36:18,079 --> 00:36:21,480
obviously wasn't aired, but I revealed a lot of that

586
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:26,639
during the interviews, and a book would be redundant, I think,

587
00:36:27,159 --> 00:36:31,480
So we changed the approach to that to be. I'm

588
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,280
not sure if you're familiar with Patricia Cornwell or not,

589
00:36:35,159 --> 00:36:38,519
but she wrote a book called All That Remains.

590
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:42,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is clearly based on the Colonial Parkway murders exactly.

591
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, And while it is deemed as being fiction, it

592
00:36:50,039 --> 00:36:55,280
is very much based on actual events. It has recently

593
00:36:55,360 --> 00:37:00,159
turned into that sort of approach. Well, I wouldn't say

594
00:37:00,159 --> 00:37:05,960
it's in its infancy. Yeah, it's I'm still working on it,

595
00:37:06,079 --> 00:37:09,480
and it's something that i'd like to get out there eventually,

596
00:37:10,159 --> 00:37:14,000
but right now that's not writing a book is not

597
00:37:15,199 --> 00:37:18,400
a priority in my life, I guess right now. But

598
00:37:18,519 --> 00:37:20,559
it is something that I would like out there at

599
00:37:20,599 --> 00:37:21,079
some point.

600
00:37:22,079 --> 00:37:26,800
Speaker 2: We've discussed All That Remains, and I've never spoken directly

601
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:31,159
to Patricia Cornwall, but it's very clear I'm considered the

602
00:37:31,199 --> 00:37:35,360
greatest expert outside of law enforcement in the Colonial Parkway murders.

603
00:37:35,639 --> 00:37:39,039
And it's not a role I sought, but it's just developed.

604
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,800
But I remember being shocked when I finally went out

605
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:47,159
and bought a seventy five cent used copy of the

606
00:37:47,199 --> 00:37:52,320
paperback of All That Remains and read the book. I

607
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:57,440
was floored. It is the Colonial Parkway murders, and in particular,

608
00:37:58,119 --> 00:38:03,400
one of the homicides is in so much detail, I

609
00:38:03,559 --> 00:38:08,519
believe that it is quite possible that Patricia Cornwall had

610
00:38:09,119 --> 00:38:15,320
a significant amount of non public information about that particular murder,

611
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:18,119
which is considered part of the series in the Colonial

612
00:38:18,159 --> 00:38:23,320
Parkwy murders. I know the case backwards and forwards when

613
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,400
you get into that level of detail, and I think

614
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:31,639
I've read every article, listened to every podcast, watched every interview,

615
00:38:32,119 --> 00:38:35,719
and I'm hearing and seeing things that just still aren't

616
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,880
part of the public discussion. And I think to myself,

617
00:38:39,079 --> 00:38:42,599
that's interesting. If Patricia Cornwall wants to discuss it with me,

618
00:38:42,679 --> 00:38:47,920
she's welcome to reach out. I am highly confident that

619
00:38:48,159 --> 00:38:52,719
the case as described in all that remains. She may

620
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:56,360
have switched the order around, and the lesbian couple aren't

621
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:59,440
the first ones killed, and it's not one two, three four,

622
00:38:59,519 --> 00:39:03,760
but it's definitely the same case, and the amount of

623
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:07,960
detail is very striking. You might want to jump off

624
00:39:08,039 --> 00:39:12,679
then into more of a fictional version of what might

625
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:14,800
have happened in the Pando's disappearance.

626
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:18,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I agree with you one hundred percent. You

627
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,679
and I had talked earlier about the fact that Jennifer

628
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:24,480
lived very close to the Colonial Parkway.

629
00:39:24,599 --> 00:39:26,559
Speaker 2: Yes, and that was one.

630
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:30,239
Speaker 4: Of the investigative avenues I took pretty early in the case,

631
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:35,119
was did she find herself on the Parkway and become

632
00:39:35,159 --> 00:39:39,599
a victim there? I was allowed through that investigation to

633
00:39:40,159 --> 00:39:44,159
see the case files through the Colonial Parkway murders. And Yeah,

634
00:39:44,199 --> 00:39:47,000
I agree with you one hundred percent that that book

635
00:39:47,159 --> 00:39:51,639
is very accurate with a lot of facts that aren't

636
00:39:51,679 --> 00:39:53,400
public knowledge.

637
00:39:53,559 --> 00:39:56,719
Speaker 2: Or certainly weren't back then. In other words, we've done

638
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:01,639
a ton of press and media. We did a four

639
00:40:01,679 --> 00:40:05,719
part television series, The Lover's Land Murders on Oxygen, and

640
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:09,320
I've been very outspoken, as have other family members about

641
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:11,440
the details because we're trying to push the FBI in

642
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:14,960
the Virginia State Police. When the book came out, which

643
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:18,360
I think is nineteen ninety two, a lot of that

644
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:20,519
information wasn't publicly available.

645
00:40:21,599 --> 00:40:26,639
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I know that she had reached out to

646
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:30,239
people in law enforcement and talked about the case with

647
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,960
them and talked about just different aspects of law enforcement

648
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:36,639
in the area and things like that. How she got

649
00:40:36,679 --> 00:40:40,880
the information, who knows, But yeah, it was very striking

650
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:45,480
how accurate Some of it was, And really, Jennifer's case

651
00:40:45,639 --> 00:40:48,239
is pretty much an open book at this point in

652
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:53,159
the documentary, Stephen going through all of these papers and things,

653
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:55,559
and he was able to get the case file from

654
00:40:55,639 --> 00:40:58,920
when I took over the case, as far as I know,

655
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:03,760
has not been able to foil the original case file

656
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:10,079
that was lost, but my understanding is that he does

657
00:41:10,119 --> 00:41:14,840
have a copy of it. It's frustrating to some extent

658
00:41:15,119 --> 00:41:19,199
from an investigative standpoint that things like that do find

659
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:23,320
their way to people who are not investigating it. From

660
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:28,079
a law enforcement standpoint, and why people leak things, you

661
00:41:28,159 --> 00:41:33,400
never know what someone's motive is. Unfortunately, sometimes information that

662
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,800
you wouldn't want out in the public ends up being there.

663
00:41:37,559 --> 00:41:41,159
Jennifer's case is pretty much an open book. I think

664
00:41:41,199 --> 00:41:44,920
the only way for me to portray a story in

665
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:48,719
a book form is to make it fiction and take

666
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:52,320
some liberties as to what happened, because in the end

667
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:55,679
we have no idea. Really, at this point, do.

668
00:41:55,639 --> 00:41:58,679
Speaker 2: You think Jennifer Pando's disappearance can be solved?

669
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 4: I think it absolutely. Whether or not it will is

670
00:42:04,039 --> 00:42:08,480
another story. You and I talked earlier about politics in

671
00:42:09,079 --> 00:42:14,039
agencies and whether or not this case from nineteen eighty

672
00:42:14,039 --> 00:42:17,119
seven is a priority for the James City County Police Department.

673
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:20,800
Right now, I can't say I don't know. I know

674
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:25,519
that there are things that can be done still from

675
00:42:25,559 --> 00:42:29,920
an investigative standpoint, that aren't being done, haven't been done,

676
00:42:30,639 --> 00:42:36,280
and probably won't be. In a perfect world, you'd have

677
00:42:36,639 --> 00:42:41,880
unlimited resources to be able to investigate things, and unfortunately,

678
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:44,679
in the real world, it's not like that.

679
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,800
Speaker 2: Wendy, thank you so much for taking some time to

680
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:52,360
talk with us. We really appreciate it. We hope you'll

681
00:42:52,519 --> 00:42:56,920
consider coming back with us as things develop anytime. Anytime

682
00:42:58,199 --> 00:42:59,920
that's going to do it for this episode of Mine

683
00:43:00,119 --> 00:43:04,360
Over Murder. As always, thanks for listening. Kristin Dilly will

684
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:06,400
be back next time, so if you miss her as

685
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:09,159
much as I do, she'll definitely be back when she

686
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:14,360
returns from her beachside vacation. Thanks again for listening. We'll

687
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:15,159
see you next time.

688
00:43:25,519 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and

689
00:43:29,119 --> 00:43:30,559
Another Dog Productions.

690
00:43:31,119 --> 00:43:34,480
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilly.

691
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,199
Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.

692
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud.

693
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:44,360
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media.

694
00:43:45,119 --> 00:43:48,280
Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.

695
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:51,079
Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway

696
00:43:51,159 --> 00:43:53,039
murders on Facebook.

697
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,800
Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at

698
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:57,440
Bill Thomas. Five six.

699
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:00,840
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Mine Over Murder