Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, and welcome to life is a gamble. My
Speaker 1: name is Richard Munchkin and my guest today is John Rogers.
Speaker 1: John is an old school bookmaker who started out a
Speaker 1: few miles from Steubenville, Ohio, where he actually had a
Speaker 1: storefront sports book and lived through the transition of the
Speaker 1: old days of carbon paper and using a paper and
Speaker 1: pencil to record people's bets to moving offshore and taking
Speaker 1: bets over the phone to the Internet age, and like
Speaker 1: anybody in that business, he's got an amazing story to tell.
Speaker 1: So let's get right into it. John Rogers, Welcome to
Speaker 1: life as a gamble.
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: So I want to really go back to the very beginning,
Speaker 1: and that is when did you for where did you
Speaker 1: grow up? And when did you first start gambling? Do
Speaker 1: you remember the first bet you ever made on anything?
Speaker 2: Oh? My, I growed up in Toronto, Ohio, about nine
Speaker 2: miles up from Steuvenville. Stuphenville is a pretty famous town
Speaker 2: for a lot of these gamblers come out, and casino
Speaker 2: employees and bosses and Jimmy the Greek Dean Martin. So
Speaker 2: there was gambling all around. And my first adventure was
Speaker 2: I was in sixth grade Catholic School. The monsignor asked
Speaker 2: me if I wanted to go to the racetrack with him. Well, yeah,
Speaker 2: by the way, he was the only good one out there.
Speaker 2: I'll tell you you know, I could have been at
Speaker 2: made a fortune right now if he would have molested me.
Speaker 2: But you went in busch. Maybe I wasn't his type.
Speaker 2: But he was a great guy, very great. So we
Speaker 2: go to the racetrack. He gives me a couple of dollars,
Speaker 2: I make a few bets. We have a good time.
Speaker 2: And when I was in sixth grade, everybody was talking
Speaker 2: about baseball, so I said, well, you know, guys want
Speaker 2: to bet it, and so all the games were even
Speaker 2: you could. All you have to do is pick a
Speaker 2: winner twenty five dollars, just straight bets, and it was
Speaker 2: pretty successful. I won about seven dollars off of the
Speaker 2: fellas in a couple of weeks, and I had it
Speaker 2: in a library book. And I didn show up for
Speaker 2: school one day and they turned in my library book
Speaker 2: and found that seven dollars and they wanted to investigate
Speaker 2: where I got that money it was from. So they
Speaker 2: brought me in the office and asked me, and I
Speaker 2: told him I was, you know, taking baseball games from
Speaker 2: the the other students, So that didn't go either. Well,
Speaker 2: they wanted me to bring my mother and dad in,
Speaker 2: and I said, my mother works at Duck School. We
Speaker 2: don't have to bother my dad. So they said, yeah,
Speaker 2: you do. So the nuns were worse than the FBI
Speaker 2: because they made me donate the money to church. And
Speaker 2: I had a Duck walk up and down the hall
Speaker 2: after she beat my knuckles with a ruler.
Speaker 1: So, now, wait a minute, where was your edge if
Speaker 1: you just had to pick one side of the other
Speaker 1: of a baseball game.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but there's six graders. I mean, what do they
Speaker 2: know what?
Speaker 1: But still if you have no juice, like right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, an ap would have did pretty good there. But
Speaker 2: you know, yeah, these were sixth graders.
Speaker 1: So so you ended up as an adult becoming a
Speaker 1: book maker and actually a book maker.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I went right into high school. I booked in
Speaker 2: high school. I booked parlays only, parlays only in high school.
Speaker 2: Got the sheets. I was a freshman. I was booking
Speaker 2: everybody in the school, and I was probably you know,
Speaker 2: probably three four hundred dollars a week, you know, five
Speaker 2: ten dollars right.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: So there was this pool room that I used to
Speaker 2: shoot pool on the seventh and eighth grade, and the
Speaker 2: lady booked numbers in parlays too. So I was a
Speaker 2: sophomore and I come home. My mother's crying on a couch.
Speaker 2: I said, you know what's wrong? She said. The lady
Speaker 2: from the poolroom called said, you're stealing her business. My mother,
Speaker 2: don't stop me. They will and I go, well, Mom,
Speaker 2: I'll take care of this. Don't worry about it. So
Speaker 2: I took care of it, and I got up early
Speaker 2: in the morning and went down and I threw a
Speaker 2: book right through her window. And then I went at
Speaker 2: lunch time and play some daily numbers. I said, don't
Speaker 2: ever call my mother again. And that was the last
Speaker 2: I heard of her. So I continued through high school,
Speaker 2: and I was It was odd because when I was
Speaker 2: in high school, I wasn't allowed to have a paper
Speaker 2: and a pen, and I knew that I wasn't going
Speaker 2: to go to college. And I had a bunch of
Speaker 2: study halls because I need only couple classes to graduate,
Speaker 2: and they didn't want me with paper and pen in
Speaker 2: there because they knew what I was up to. So
Speaker 2: when I graduated, and one kid had wrote in my
Speaker 2: yearbook that I was the only one that ever said
Speaker 2: what they were going to do and did I said,
Speaker 2: I was going to be a bookmaker. So I opened
Speaker 2: up right out of high school and have walked in
Speaker 2: places and they're not unusual in this area where you
Speaker 2: can walk in and put a bet down. We had
Speaker 2: the boards up.
Speaker 1: That's that's amazing. So that I mean, so I guess
Speaker 1: Steubenville was just a wide open town as far as gambling,
Speaker 1: if you were allowed to have a walk in.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So just like a storefront, Yeah.
Speaker 2: That was we had hats. The hats were like fifty
Speaker 2: some dollars. That way, nobody would buy. I mean, we
Speaker 2: didn't have to replenish our inventory. So and then we
Speaker 2: got into booking daily numbers, you know the numbers, you know,
Speaker 2: and I think in the like seventy eight, they started
Speaker 2: with the Ohio number. The Pennsylvania numbers started first in
Speaker 2: the West Virginia, and we used to take all three
Speaker 2: states because we're right on the river. So it was
Speaker 2: called POW Pennsylvania, Ohio, and West Virginia. So you'd come
Speaker 2: in play POW all three states. You know, they're fifty
Speaker 2: cents buy a dime or something like that, you know,
Speaker 2: and the ladies really like that. We paid, you know,
Speaker 2: when the places were paying five to one, five hundred
Speaker 2: to one, we were paid six hundred to one. So
Speaker 2: we got a lot of business in the Numbers and
Speaker 2: numbers was big. Everybody had dream books and numbers, and
Speaker 2: you know they had them all. We had an old
Speaker 2: butcher in there. We called him the psychic prognosticator because
Speaker 2: he Everybody used to ask the butcher but for a number,
Speaker 2: you know, and he was to give numbers and sometimes
Speaker 2: they would hit. So after he retired from them, I
Speaker 2: had him working in my place and he brought in
Speaker 2: all the women customers. It was beautiful. What so one
Speaker 2: day he uh, I asked him, I said, Adam, give
Speaker 2: me a give me a number. And he's seen the
Speaker 2: layoff sheet. We used to lay off anything over twenty dollars.
Speaker 2: So I write twenty dollars and he tells me seven
Speaker 2: four eight. I write it on. He sees that, and
Speaker 2: that night I get a call right after the numbers
Speaker 2: are drawn, and he said, you better take care of me,
Speaker 2: You better take care of me. I said, what's what's
Speaker 2: what's up? Man, what's up? Seven four eight? Hit right
Speaker 2: on the button. I said, that's great. You know, I
Speaker 2: went like twelve thousand dollars. It was fantastic. I go
Speaker 2: down and threw all the tickets for the next day
Speaker 2: down there. He gave it to everybody in town. I
Speaker 2: had to pay out like fifty thousand dollars, and he
Speaker 2: still wanted me to give him a tip. The psychic prognosticated, Wow.
Speaker 2: This lasted till Super Bowl nineteen ninety where I was
Speaker 2: having a party at my house up the shop. We
Speaker 2: were open till the Super Bowl opens. Next scene.
Speaker 1: Wait, let me stop you just a second. So I
Speaker 1: would have thought when the state lotteries came in that
Speaker 1: that would have really bit into the numbers business. But
Speaker 1: but no, it was still going strong.
Speaker 2: It was. It went better because it was when they
Speaker 2: the states started throwing it. They started putting them on TV,
Speaker 2: and before it was a stock number, and then on
Speaker 2: the weekends it was a race number, if you're familiar
Speaker 2: with that. So they would use the last number of
Speaker 2: the advances, decline and unchanges, and that's how they would
Speaker 2: come up with the daily number, daily stock number. And
Speaker 2: once it started having drawings at seven and seven thirty,
Speaker 2: you know, and the states were having and it was big.
Speaker 2: The States are paying five hundred to one. You bet
Speaker 2: a dollar, you went five hundred. We were paying six
Speaker 2: hundred to one, bet a dollar and six hundred. And
Speaker 2: then we had a deal for them on Mondays if
Speaker 2: you come in and they didn't have Sunday numbers there.
Speaker 2: So if you come in on Monday and played your
Speaker 2: numbers for all week and paid for all week, you
Speaker 2: pay for five days, get the six day free. So
Speaker 2: that was huge. People like deals, people like sales. You know,
Speaker 2: they sure sure about themselves. So the number numbers was very,
Speaker 2: very big business. And still you know, you're holding thirty
Speaker 2: forty percent on the number.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it was that a bigger business for you
Speaker 1: than the sports betting or or how did that break down?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was probably even because a lot of the
Speaker 2: customers that played the numbers would come into the front
Speaker 2: and you'd have to walk into the back to see
Speaker 2: the board and all the the uh, the the games
Speaker 2: that were on the board, and then in the back
Speaker 2: room we had pogram machine where you could play pogram machines.
Speaker 1: So we it was just a wow, a license to
Speaker 1: print money.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was pretty good. It was. It was pretty good.
Speaker 2: You know, even when I was away. The guys who
Speaker 2: were running the place, you know, they always got the
Speaker 2: first count. And even when I was away, I made money.
Speaker 1: So now I grew up outside Chicago, and I used
Speaker 1: to play poker with a couple of pretty large book
Speaker 1: makers and they had to sort of kick money off
Speaker 1: to the outfit guys. Was that a problem in Steubenville?
Speaker 2: Uh? Well, you know it was Toronto. Now Steubenville was
Speaker 2: a different, different animal. Okay, Stutville was nine miles down there.
Speaker 2: They had their bookies and there was a lot of
Speaker 2: paying off that went on down there. But I didn't
Speaker 2: participate in that. I had I had someone looking out for.
Speaker 1: Me for.
Speaker 2: You know, because of my my you know, my mother
Speaker 2: grew up in Steubenville. And the guy took a liking
Speaker 2: to me, and he would let me know what was
Speaker 2: going on, you know, if somebody was going to try
Speaker 2: to rob us, or somebody was asking questions about us.
Speaker 2: But you know, no, we didn't. We didn't pay any policemen.
Speaker 2: You know, they had a job to do.
Speaker 1: And yeah, did you ever get robbed?
Speaker 2: H No, these guys in jail were going to rob us,
Speaker 2: and he the guy from the his name was Phil
Speaker 2: from the coin store Filmatucci from Steubenville, called me up,
Speaker 2: told me come down, and he goes, they're talking about,
Speaker 2: you know, robbing you and you're you park in the back.
Speaker 2: He goes, before it gets dark, move your car around
Speaker 2: the front. They got they have they don't have the
Speaker 2: balls to rob you from the front. So because we
Speaker 2: were right on the streets, you know. Yeah, so then
Speaker 2: you know, we talked to the guys that were thinking
Speaker 2: about it and they just their minds. So we never
Speaker 2: had any problems like that.
Speaker 1: Oh that's good. So anyway you were saying Super Bowl
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety.
Speaker 2: Super Bowl nineteen ninety, everything's calm. But we were always
Speaker 2: you know, knew that they liked to raid on Super Bowls, right,
Speaker 2: So everybody had come in. We had a timestamp on
Speaker 2: these tickets, so everybody had come in. We just took
Speaker 2: the tickets and we would run them through the shredder.
Speaker 2: Now nobody knew that we were doing that. We didn't
Speaker 2: have the tickets. We didn't want to have any tickets
Speaker 2: on us, and we had the janitor in there and
Speaker 2: we told him to if anything happens, we were feeling this.
Speaker 2: He had a suit jacket because he always went to
Speaker 2: church and if anything happened, just walk out the door
Speaker 2: and I'll see it tomorrow. And we were putting the
Speaker 2: money in this suit jacket. Well, the FBI had to
Speaker 2: place but and they knew the plan. But the only
Speaker 2: thing they didn't know what the janitor look like in
Speaker 2: a suit. They knew what he looked like, you know,
Speaker 2: wearing a baseball hat everywhere, baseball hats and everything. And
Speaker 2: when they raided us up there a couple hours before
Speaker 2: the Super Bowl, George, his IQ is like maybe seventy
Speaker 2: or whatever. But he had a good heart. He walks
Speaker 2: right out the door like he's supposed to. So I'm
Speaker 2: at home by now, and there is Chevrolet's all through
Speaker 2: my yard about twelve fifteen cars, and my garage door's open.
Speaker 2: Now I hear a knock on my door, you know.
Speaker 2: He walked in the garage, knocked on my door, opened up,
Speaker 2: and it's George. He said, Boss, we got rated up
Speaker 2: town that I figured that George. Who brought you here?
Speaker 2: He said, Keith. I said, well, get he's car and
Speaker 2: I'll see you tomorrow. Now, the FBI was up upstairs
Speaker 2: searching through the house. Jesus, and there is no cell
Speaker 2: phones at the time. FBI didn't happen in the nineties,
Speaker 2: and my house phone rings and they want to talk
Speaker 2: to the agent and charge the people uptown. They said, hey,
Speaker 2: we missed George. He must have walked out the door.
Speaker 2: We didn't recognize him. Did he show up there? The
Speaker 2: guy goes, no, we haven't seen him. So they got
Speaker 2: zero tickets. They got zero money. And you know, they
Speaker 2: just come in and did the search and seizure and
Speaker 2: you know, and they had they had to come down
Speaker 2: and ask me, can you ask your mother to sit
Speaker 2: on the back porch while we searched the house. She's
Speaker 2: given us a hard time, So that's the tie in
Speaker 2: in her. You know, he's giving them a hard time.
Speaker 2: You take my son, you're gonna have to take me
Speaker 2: with you. I said, come on, I just relaxed, let
Speaker 2: them do their job and we could get all with
Speaker 2: our parties. But the funny story was my niece was
Speaker 2: like three years old. She went to the hospital and
Speaker 2: her father went to YEO, he's a pretty smart, wise guy.
Speaker 2: And I used to say to her hospital and I'd
Speaker 2: make her cry. So she was about three years old,
Speaker 2: and her dad told her, say FBI to him. This
Speaker 2: is prior to the bus, Say FBI to him. That
Speaker 2: will make him cry. And I'd act like I cry,
Speaker 2: Say FBI raids the house. They got hats on FBI.
Speaker 2: She's three years old. I'm sure she can't figure out.
Speaker 2: She run around moring FBI, FBI and goes, how does
Speaker 2: she know? So that that set me back. We had
Speaker 2: to shut down for a while.
Speaker 1: And so if they didn't find any tickets or any money,
Speaker 1: then did they end up not charging you with anything. No.
Speaker 2: They had seven one hundred and fifty hours of recording,
Speaker 2: so they were dealing with I have quite a bit
Speaker 2: of money, so they thought that I was selling drugs,
Speaker 2: and seven hundred and fifty hours of tate there was
Speaker 2: drugs weren't mentioned one time. So I was probably a
Speaker 2: bigger better than I was a bookmaker then, so and
Speaker 2: everybody got busted in the area, and I was like,
Speaker 2: if they had a chart, I would be at the
Speaker 2: top of the list because I was calling these guys,
Speaker 2: you know, and betting and they were laying off to me.
Speaker 2: So that was that they got guys from Pittsburgh, Youngstown
Speaker 2: and East Liverpool across the river weird and ironically nobody
Speaker 2: in Steubenville. So uh that that that that went on,
Speaker 2: and so I was going to fight the case. The
Speaker 2: worst I could have got with the I think the
Speaker 2: you know, the sentence in guidelines was twelve months and
Speaker 2: Molnsville or somewhere wouldn't have been too bad. So I said,
Speaker 2: now I'm going to fight it. I want to see
Speaker 2: this process how it goes. So I'm not giving up,
Speaker 2: not giving up. But I had a problem. I had
Speaker 2: seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars in CDs in the
Speaker 2: bank because I was claiming my income and I'm trying
Speaker 2: to figure out how am I going to get this
Speaker 2: cash out of there without them, you know, taking it,
Speaker 2: because they eventually were going to come up and seize
Speaker 2: that money. They just needed to go through some evidence
Speaker 2: or whatever. So I get go to the bank, I said,
Speaker 2: I'm want to cash his CD in early and I said,
Speaker 2: I want five five fifty thousand dollars cashiers checks. They said, okay,
Speaker 2: I fly to Vegas. I go down and put them
Speaker 2: up in five different hotels and each morning I go out,
Speaker 2: I take a five thousand dollars. I'd play a little bit,
Speaker 2: probably half or forty five minutes. Cash out, get the cash,
Speaker 2: go up to the window. They say, you have any markers.
Speaker 2: I go, I got a cash deposit. They give me
Speaker 2: the money. Then I put it in a place out
Speaker 2: there called the vault. You ever hear of the vault?
Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, yeah, that place got ropped.
Speaker 2: Well, thank god I was out of there by.
Speaker 1: This, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: And then I went back home. I got the other
Speaker 2: five hundred thousand. I did the same thing. And at
Speaker 2: the time it was great because they would say what
Speaker 2: can I do for you? What can I do for you?
Speaker 2: I said, can you pay for my first class airfare?
Speaker 2: And I flew out their coat. So I would get
Speaker 2: buy a first class air ticket and they would pay
Speaker 2: me reimburse me for it, you know, one way on
Speaker 2: the way home. And I would do that to two
Speaker 2: or three hotel. Then they got smart and they start
Speaker 2: stamping them tickets that they were paid by the Tropicana
Speaker 2: or paid by Mirage, and I could only could use
Speaker 2: them one time. Right then you could just catch them in,
Speaker 2: you know, get your money back. So that was a
Speaker 2: pretty good gig.
Speaker 1: So really smart that you paid the tax, you know,
Speaker 1: so many guys don't want to pay the taxes. But
Speaker 1: you know, you could have really good screwed if you
Speaker 1: hadn't paid your taxes.
Speaker 2: Right, you have to pay. You have to pay, and
Speaker 2: let them figure out if you paid it off. You know, yeah,
Speaker 2: if you pay Zebra, it's easy to figure out.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So I loafed around Vegas from ninety and ninety three,
Speaker 2: were making bets out there and just trying to figure
Speaker 2: out what I was going to do get this case
Speaker 2: behind me, and they kept delaying it. They won't. They
Speaker 2: didn't charge me. They didn't charge me. They wanted me
Speaker 2: to give up. And they called in a bunch of
Speaker 2: people from my hometown and half of them, or more
Speaker 2: than half of them, come to me. Said they're calling me,
Speaker 2: and what's and I tell them And I said, tell
Speaker 2: them the truth, what you know that I did. Don't
Speaker 2: tell them what you heard I did, because you know
Speaker 2: Nut's here said you could tell them the truth, but
Speaker 2: because you know I was not going to corrupt justice,
Speaker 2: and you know, give them an easy charge on me.
Speaker 2: So they went in there and the FBI even told
Speaker 2: my attorney he said he told these guys just to
Speaker 2: tell the truth. You know, I was a bookmaker. That
Speaker 2: was it. I mean was going there at eight o'clock
Speaker 2: in the morning leaving at seven o'clock at night. I mean,
Speaker 2: what do they think I was doing in there?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: So that went on and kept lingering on. Tonight one
Speaker 2: of my old customers said, Hey, we have this thing.
Speaker 2: I got this thing in Antigua where they're going to
Speaker 2: give us ninety nine years tax free. We can you
Speaker 2: could book customers from the United States, but you can't
Speaker 2: book any local. And I said, how did this come about?
Speaker 2: He goes and eighteen ninety two your Way treaty within
Speaker 2: the United States. They had took away their sugar cane
Speaker 2: down there for something in Antigua, and they give them entertainment,
Speaker 2: and listed on an entertainment was gaming. So that made him.
Speaker 2: That made it so they could open up a new industry.
Speaker 2: So the company was already down there. The guy from
Speaker 2: Las Vegas, Kenny White, had a relative down there and
Speaker 2: he knew this guy that bet with me. So Kenny
Speaker 2: White and them guys opened this business in July of
Speaker 2: July thirteenth. I was just looking at the license nineteen
Speaker 2: ninety three, and they were working it pretty good. But
Speaker 2: the phone bill were like it was like a dollar
Speaker 2: US dollar a minute, so you couldn't beat the phone bill.
Speaker 2: And so by the end of the year, Kenny, they
Speaker 2: had enough. And this guy asked me if I wanted
Speaker 2: to go down there and look at it, because I
Speaker 2: wasn't working. I went down there and looked at it.
Speaker 2: The roads were horrible, there was no air conditioning. The
Speaker 2: bugs were everywhere. And I said to my friend, I said,
Speaker 2: I'm going home and heat like always interrupted me said
Speaker 2: I don't blame me. I said, I'm going home and
Speaker 2: get my stuff. I'm moving here.
Speaker 1: How are you going to beat the how are you
Speaker 1: going to beat the price of the phones?
Speaker 2: Well, they come up with the local company come up
Speaker 2: with that you could use cable and wireless. You know,
Speaker 2: it's international company. And they were putting a trunk through
Speaker 2: you know or something, and the rates really had changed.
Speaker 2: They changed the law and I started taking over. We
Speaker 2: started making money. Then they they informed me we had
Speaker 2: a ninety thousand dollars bill we had to make up.
Speaker 2: So I was in for it. We went there and
Speaker 2: it was all paper and and then you know the
Speaker 2: old days where you you uh writing down on a
Speaker 2: piece of paper, split the paper and night. You know,
Speaker 2: you have a stack of papers like this. One guy's
Speaker 2: grading the yellow copy, you're grading the white copy, and
Speaker 2: then you're coming up with figures. It was a lot
Speaker 2: of work back then.
Speaker 1: You know, you really lived through this amazing transition in
Speaker 1: the whole field of sports betting. Oh, I mean from
Speaker 1: being on the phone, pencil and paper, you know, carbon copies,
Speaker 1: all of that two you know, the the internet days.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we it ramped ups. We did that until
Speaker 2: you know, most of these companies were hired hundreds of
Speaker 2: an employee. We ours at the carib was one hundred
Speaker 2: dollars minimum bet because we we wanted to grow up,
Speaker 2: not out, and so we didn't want to hunt our
Speaker 2: employees taking the phone. The phone bill was still a
Speaker 2: little bit expensive. And so the beginning of ninety seven,
Speaker 2: in the ninety sixty years, something about this internet. In
Speaker 2: ninety seven, at the end of it, this company come
Speaker 2: to me and had a program, and we put the
Speaker 2: program in and it was working good, but it would
Speaker 2: only take one hundred and fifty bets at the same time.
Speaker 2: So that's not going to work for us because we
Speaker 2: need a lot more than that. So we ended up
Speaker 2: a guy was working down there for a company that
Speaker 2: had disputed over money. He come to us, wanted to
Speaker 2: build us a program. I said, this is too new
Speaker 2: of you leaving this company. I don't want them to
Speaker 2: say that I stole you from them. Come back in
Speaker 2: a month if you're not doing anything. And he come
Speaker 2: back in about a month he said, I got this
Speaker 2: program right, and it was our own proprietary software. We
Speaker 2: could make changes on the fly, and off we went.
Speaker 2: We had everything on there. We had daily numbers from
Speaker 2: all the states. We put horse racing on there. We
Speaker 2: had you could bet the doal Jones whether it was
Speaker 2: going up and down.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, we had these. And your company was called
Speaker 1: carib Right, carib Sports, rib Sports.
Speaker 2: Yes. So we had all these unique things on our site,
Speaker 2: these squares that they talk about. You know, you start
Speaker 2: without like a one hundred blocks and you fill them
Speaker 2: in and you know, if the score is eight to six,
Speaker 2: you you know, you do that. Them things sold like crazy.
Speaker 2: It was like a ten percent hold on them things.
Speaker 2: And they we were selling fifty sixty of them every week,
Speaker 2: you know, I mean probably more. But I went down
Speaker 2: there not knowing anything about these guys how they worked.
Speaker 2: I'm not a intellectual mathematician, you know, like these guys
Speaker 2: are setting the lines. But the only thing I had
Speaker 2: was a good grass of the obvious. So when when
Speaker 2: they would come in, a guy would come in and
Speaker 2: bet something, we would move it. And the next guy
Speaker 2: come in and we would give him the number, you know,
Speaker 2: move from four to four and a half. He wouldn't
Speaker 2: bet it. So I had to figure, well, I must
Speaker 2: have something here. He don't want to bet it. Then
Speaker 2: if I move it from you know, too far, guy
Speaker 2: might bet it back. Then you know, I just move
Speaker 2: it back. So after a while we figured out if
Speaker 2: we give them a dime on the side and the
Speaker 2: nickel on a total, you know, there's still one to
Speaker 2: bet because they know they're going to get paid. So
Speaker 2: we probably every year we would probably lose a half
Speaker 2: a million dollars to the wise guys diamond and nickel.
Speaker 2: But our line was strong and we would beat everybody else.
Speaker 1: And you'll take the information and try to go bet
Speaker 1: at other places.
Speaker 2: No, no, because you know the same thing. You know,
Speaker 2: people were down there. You know, more and more groups
Speaker 2: are coming to Antigua. Right, So when we started advertising,
Speaker 2: we were Antigua and you could play do this legally,
Speaker 2: more people were coming and I'll say for every ten
Speaker 2: that got down there, three or four must have got
Speaker 2: in business. And maybe out of the four, one made it.
Speaker 2: Because there was guys down there just ripping and tearing
Speaker 2: people off, you know, saying them they could get them this,
Speaker 2: they get this, they got this connection, that connection never
Speaker 2: get anything going. Most of them used the depositive money
Speaker 2: of customers instead of having their their own money, and
Speaker 2: when they would, you know, burn through the money, they
Speaker 2: didn't have any money to pay the customers. But Crib
Speaker 2: we always did one thing. We kept two million dollars
Speaker 2: over on hand, over the deposit money, so we always
Speaker 2: had it. So when later on in two thousand and three,
Speaker 2: when the Justice Department got me, they did.
Speaker 1: It for what wait, was this the nineteen ninety case
Speaker 1: finally or.
Speaker 2: No, the nineteen ninety case was over in ninety seven.
Speaker 2: They failed to charge me because they had an agent
Speaker 2: that approached me and he once, I'm have a lawyer,
Speaker 2: he's not allowed to talk to me. We were at
Speaker 2: our country club. We were matched up on the on
Speaker 2: a team in an event. He was trying to intimidate me.
Speaker 2: A deer laying across the field. He pulled his pistol
Speaker 2: out and shot at it. I'm sure he just shot
Speaker 2: over it, said to try to intimidate me. We went
Speaker 2: in there inside, and he would say, you should just
Speaker 2: give up and move on with your life. Just get
Speaker 2: this behind you and move off. Then he started telling
Speaker 2: me how they did the whole investigation. And he was drinking,
Speaker 2: and I was ordering drinks and ordering him drinks, and
Speaker 2: it's going on and on and on, and I am
Speaker 2: just getting all the information I ever want to get
Speaker 2: out of this guy. He's the case agent. So we
Speaker 2: get to the end and I said to him, I
Speaker 2: was done. Ready to guy, He said, my attorney told
Speaker 2: me the FBI gets eighty five percent of their information
Speaker 2: off innocent conversations like this. You guys are trained. And
Speaker 2: he looked at me and said, who trained you. I said, look,
Speaker 2: this conversation's over. You're trying to make me feel good
Speaker 2: about myself. I'm out of here. And he looked at
Speaker 2: me and he said, if you ever say this conversation
Speaker 2: took place, I'll be on a witness sand and call
Speaker 2: you a fucking liar. And who are they gonna believe
Speaker 2: a bookie or an FBI agent well, one of my
Speaker 2: friends was to the right of him. I looked at
Speaker 2: him and made sure he heard that. And then this
Speaker 2: acquaintance was to the left. I looked at him. He
Speaker 2: kind of nodded that he heard it. I got up
Speaker 2: to the left. So my lawyer always gets his office
Speaker 2: like nine o'clock and I never would call until nine
Speaker 2: p thirty. He gets things in wrange. I said, FBI
Speaker 2: approached me last night. He goes, no, he didn't. I said, yes,
Speaker 2: he did. And here's what happened. So he calls the
Speaker 2: agent's boss up in Columbus, Ohio, and he said, your
Speaker 2: agent approached my guy. He said, no, he didn't. He said,
Speaker 2: you better check with your agent. Then he gets a
Speaker 2: call from that guy's boss in Cincinnati and he goes,
Speaker 2: what do I hear about this agent approaching your client?
Speaker 2: And he told him and then their case just went
Speaker 2: all away. They gave me all my stuff back after
Speaker 2: seven years, brought my car back. They had they had
Speaker 2: seized my house, took the siegure off my house. So
Speaker 2: I was one to know there. And yeah, I still
Speaker 2: was living in the house because they were trying to
Speaker 2: go through forfeiture proceedings and they needed me to be
Speaker 2: guilty to do that. So they returned everything. And by
Speaker 2: that time I was I was an Antigua and everything
Speaker 2: was going good. Our program was up and running. Uh
Speaker 2: you know, there's all kinds of books opening up everywhere.
Speaker 2: This is ninety nine or whatever. You know. The two
Speaker 2: thousand we put credit cards on on online where you
Speaker 2: could use your credit card before I remember, we were
Speaker 2: running them. You have to get you give us your
Speaker 2: credit card number. We would run it by hand, and
Speaker 2: one year we did a half a million dollar in
Speaker 2: credit card running by hand. The first month we put
Speaker 2: our credit cards online, we did a half a million
Speaker 2: dollars on that. Wow. So the automated system, it was
Speaker 2: really great. Then we put a casino link on there,
Speaker 2: so we had a people could transfer money play casinos.
Speaker 2: It was just the wild wild West, I'll tell you.
Speaker 1: Oh I remember, Yeah, I was there on the player's side.
Speaker 1: And initially you had to deal with Western Union trying
Speaker 1: to send money that way. But then eventually PayPal came in, and.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we had money Gram and money Gram we had
Speaker 2: it for a while till someone got jealous and found
Speaker 2: out about it and called money Gram and we got
Speaker 2: cut off. But the checks would just print up in
Speaker 2: the office. I'd be sitting there in the printer would
Speaker 2: ting that like ten fifteen checks would come off and
Speaker 2: we would just put them in the bank. It was
Speaker 2: the greatest thing you ever seen.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: So we were taken at that time because we took
Speaker 2: daily numbers, squares and all these small bets. You know,
Speaker 2: we were probably it was like a big cement mixer.
Speaker 2: We were probably about a seventy five dollars average bet,
Speaker 2: and we were taken between one hundred and fifty thousand
Speaker 2: and two hundred thousand bets a week.
Speaker 1: So so its two hundred thousand bets, not two hundred thousand.
Speaker 2: Dollars, No, two hundred thousand bets, wow, about seventy five
Speaker 2: an off season, you know, football and basketball, baseball season
Speaker 2: was probably down to fifty two dollars average bet. But
Speaker 2: it was we used to It used to cost us
Speaker 2: a dollar ninety to take a bet on the phone.
Speaker 2: It was costing us about three cents on the internet
Speaker 2: per bet. Yeah, though it was. It was fantastic. Everything
Speaker 2: was coming up, everything was running good. And then nine
Speaker 2: to eleven happened. Nine to eleven happened, and then they
Speaker 2: passed a terrorist bill, and they formed the RSCID and
Speaker 2: giving them a bunch of money to investigate internet crimes.
Speaker 2: And you know, I think Tommy Chong got he went
Speaker 2: to jail for the bongs things. That was the same
Speaker 2: Pittsburgh office that was investigating me. And on June third,
Speaker 2: two thousand and three, that's when I got raided. I
Speaker 2: was up in my office in Toronto. And because it's
Speaker 2: you know, they can only raid a place like offshore
Speaker 2: if it's illegal, illegal in both countries. But it was
Speaker 2: legal in Antiga. And by this time we had an
Speaker 2: office in Belize too, so it was there. So all
Speaker 2: they could do is get me. So they come flying
Speaker 2: in and get me. And I was paying my taxes again,
Speaker 2: even though the only thing they left in my office
Speaker 2: was my quarterly payments. I was paying about one hundred
Speaker 2: and twenty five thousand or two hundred and fifty thousand
Speaker 2: a quarter in taxes, so that's the only thing they
Speaker 2: left in my office. So they get everything. I go
Speaker 2: home and I tell my wife, well, they raided my
Speaker 2: house too. At the same time, she knew exactly what
Speaker 2: to do. We never talked about it. After we got
Speaker 2: like forty phone calls in the morning over the weekend
Speaker 2: that were hang ups, and we were out of town.
Speaker 2: Eight o'clock in the morning, my phone rangs and I
Speaker 2: pick it up and they hang up. I just looked
Speaker 2: at my wife and she looked at me, and I said,
Speaker 2: I have to go to my office to pick up
Speaker 2: my phone. And I was taking my kids to school,
Speaker 2: so i'd go over. And as I drive into my
Speaker 2: office is about two hundred and fifty yards away, car
Speaker 2: comes flying around me, blocks me off. Everybody's jumping on
Speaker 2: the cars. They're screaming, putting their hats on. I opened
Speaker 2: the door of my truck and he's trying to rip
Speaker 2: my door off and he's yelling, where's the guns? Where's
Speaker 2: the guns? I said, you got them? I said, I
Speaker 2: use pencils. So he shows me the warrant. Obviously they
Speaker 2: were in my office before because he was asking me
Speaker 2: the culmination is safe, and no one even knew was
Speaker 2: in there. And I go over to the phone. I
Speaker 2: call my lawyer's office and the secretary says, is this John.
Speaker 2: I go, yeah, she goes, your wife just called we're
Speaker 2: sending somebody up. So that was pretty good. So I
Speaker 2: go home and I told her I I said they
Speaker 2: got it all. My wife be cause what do you mean.
Speaker 2: I said, they got it all today? She says, I
Speaker 2: don't know what you're talking about. I said, we had
Speaker 2: seven and a half million dollars this morning. Now I
Speaker 2: think they got it all. She goes, I'm driving a
Speaker 2: car with no air conditioning and we got seven and
Speaker 2: a half million dollars. I said, yeah, saving for a
Speaker 2: rainy days pouring right now. So I go up to
Speaker 2: the bank. I got a bank account. I'm in the
Speaker 2: bank account. They they got this package. It was my
Speaker 2: drop dead package, so if I die, my wife would
Speaker 2: know where everything was. But they had heard me tell
Speaker 2: my dad where it was because they had my office
Speaker 2: miked up. So they get that, and I got three
Speaker 2: depositive boxes, and they're trying to figure out the round
Speaker 2: robin and what belongs to watch right what bank? So
Speaker 2: I'm up in the bank trying to withdraw money and
Speaker 2: they won't only give me seven thousand cash. And I
Speaker 2: was building a house at the time, so I ended
Speaker 2: up getting one hundred and fifty out for my lawyer,
Speaker 2: two hundred and fifty thousand for the house. And I
Speaker 2: look over, they're in the safe. They're drilling my deposit box.
Speaker 2: Oh jeez. So in the deposit box, the three they
Speaker 2: finally got them all. I had like a million and
Speaker 2: a half in cash and three hundred and sixty gold coins,
Speaker 2: and I had one silver bar that was in my office.
Speaker 2: They in my warehouse, they called it, and they made
Speaker 2: the biggest deal about that. I had a one hundred
Speaker 2: ounce bullion in there. Silver bars in his warehouse. You
Speaker 2: know it was it was one bar. So the next day, ironically,
Speaker 2: I come back to my office and I looked at
Speaker 2: the door. Someone tried to break in. Now this is
Speaker 2: after the raid. I said, these criminals are pretty I'm
Speaker 2: trying to break in my office after ray, What did
Speaker 2: they think that cops left something there? So here's the
Speaker 2: whole process again. We're going through the whole process. And
Speaker 2: we find out later because of Antigua filed a wto
Speaker 2: grievance against the United States because they were hampering their
Speaker 2: banking system and stuff because Antiga was growing with all
Speaker 2: these sports books. Right, So Antigua fouled a grievance again
Speaker 2: the United States that hey, we're doing this. You know
Speaker 2: you told us, you showed us how to set this up.
Speaker 2: You send representatives down there how to set this up.
Speaker 2: You even give us some Indian regulations on how they
Speaker 2: were handling gambling, and now you want to stop us
Speaker 2: because they really didn't understand how big the Internet was
Speaker 2: going to get when they did disagreement in ninety two. Right, yeah,
Speaker 2: they said, oh fuck, you know this internet could be big.
Speaker 2: So to retally, they start hunting down the operators in
Speaker 2: u Antigue. And that's when I think J Cohen got
Speaker 2: in the mix w sex and they were J Cohen
Speaker 2: did something different than me. He transmitted a bet. He
Speaker 2: was on the phone and took a bet from an agent. Right.
Speaker 2: I never transmitted any bet. They tried to get me
Speaker 2: on the phone, you know, before every everybody was changing
Speaker 2: their names. That's when I changed mind to I talked
Speaker 2: to this guy one time. He sent down two hundred
Speaker 2: and fifty dollars and he bet twenty five dollars bets. Now,
Speaker 2: when somebody in office said he wants to talk to
Speaker 2: the boss, he wants to send fifty thousand downs. So
Speaker 2: I know it's an agent, right. So he gets back
Speaker 2: and he wants to know my name and everything, and
Speaker 2: I tell my name's William. So a couple of days later,
Speaker 2: the phone rings and they I think it's somebody from
Speaker 2: my hometown. I pick up the phone. This is this
Speaker 2: is John. The guy goes, I thought your name was William.
Speaker 2: I said, John's my middle name, William Jay. Then I
Speaker 2: throwed out Caesar because in Las Vegas there was a
Speaker 2: guy called Montana Mel. We used to hang out a
Speaker 2: team may Day's place up there, Little Caesars, and he
Speaker 2: used to call me big sees there. Montana Mel was
Speaker 2: a legend out there. So I go, that's how William J.
Speaker 2: Caesar was created. So I went with that the rest
Speaker 2: of the time. But they they tried everything, and their
Speaker 2: last thing that they tried on us was my guy
Speaker 2: was in Belize.
Speaker 1: He goes to the.
Speaker 2: FedEx place down there and they asked him what's in
Speaker 2: this package because you have to put on your set
Speaker 2: it out package is like if it was a check
Speaker 2: we put documents or whatever. And it wasn't uh, nothing
Speaker 2: was rude on it. He said, I didn't bring that
Speaker 2: down there. They said, well, it comes from mailbox, etc.
Speaker 2: And it was a big package. And he called me
Speaker 2: up and he said there's a package of fed X.
Speaker 2: I said, get our attorney. Have the police. There have
Speaker 2: the FedEx investigators get him there, and I watched a
Speaker 2: videotape opening this box up. So they go all down
Speaker 2: there and they videotape opened up the box in between
Speaker 2: two card drives. There's a kilo of cocaine. Wow, it
Speaker 2: was going to a laundry matt in New York City.
Speaker 2: So they go, we have the tapes from mailbox, et cetera.
Speaker 2: We know what the guy looks like. We know that
Speaker 2: he got to go onto a plane the Miami and
Speaker 2: we're gonna have him picked up there. Good good. No
Speaker 2: more information was ever given to us. That went dead.
Speaker 2: It was like a dead end. No one said anything.
Speaker 2: So if that package makes it to the airport and
Speaker 2: a dog smell it, or because there's it's not determined
Speaker 2: what's in the box, and they open it up, then
Speaker 2: they would have the right to come and dismantle our
Speaker 2: office down there, close our servers down, take everything down,
Speaker 2: because obviously selling drugs in both countries is illegal, right,
Speaker 2: So they played that dirty trick on us. They did
Speaker 2: some other tricks. They used the Patriot Act to freeze
Speaker 2: the corresponding banks money in Belize in New Orleans and
Speaker 2: the government of Belize had to let them know it
Speaker 2: was okay to take our money. They would give them
Speaker 2: our money, cribs money, if they would let the rest
Speaker 2: of the US dollars flow through, because that would shut
Speaker 2: Belize's economy down, you know. Sure, So that's what they did.
Speaker 2: We went the court down there. We won the fight
Speaker 2: in the court down there, but the US used the
Speaker 2: Terrorist Act on us. We were domestic terrorists to seize
Speaker 2: our money in New Orleans. Now the word gets out
Speaker 2: on the internet fast, and so everybody starts taking withdraws.
Speaker 2: This is where our you know, or where we had
Speaker 2: two million over our deposit money. So obviously we had
Speaker 2: plenty of money to pay anybody that wanted to withdraw.
Speaker 2: And they would ask me about I'd get on the
Speaker 2: phone and I said, listen, if you this is just
Speaker 2: going to keep you up at night, take your money
Speaker 2: out and when you think, you know, you get your money,
Speaker 2: you could send it back here and and we'll move on.
Speaker 2: But they that's what a lot of people did. Some
Speaker 2: people left their money there who could have never had
Speaker 2: a problem paying. Wow, it worked out good, and we
Speaker 2: give our the players. You know, it's a reason to
Speaker 2: come back to the site. Every day, you know, like
Speaker 2: on you know, Tuesday, you could lay a dollar two
Speaker 2: on the NFL up to five hundred dollars. On Wednesday,
Speaker 2: we would pick ten or fifteen people and give them
Speaker 2: two hundred and fifty dollars.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: On Friday, you could lay a dollar five from midnight
Speaker 2: to you know, eight o'clock in the morning on college football.
Speaker 2: So people come back to the site. Our rettention rate
Speaker 2: on customers down there was unbelievable. We had some that
Speaker 2: day one. Customers were still there when I left. So
Speaker 2: I'm fighting the case, trying to get my money back.
Speaker 2: Here comes October thirteenth, two thousand and six. And prior
Speaker 2: to this, there was a company in England, Sporting bet,
Speaker 2: that were going to make us an offer, and it
Speaker 2: was probably for about fifty million dollars. Wow. And so
Speaker 2: here comes October thirteenth, two thousand and six, and they
Speaker 2: had stuffed They failed to pass against this. They failed
Speaker 2: to pass an HR bill nine times on its own.
Speaker 2: They stopped this in this port security bill, and at
Speaker 2: eleven o'clock on the night I was watching c SPAN
Speaker 2: and they passed. It was on a twenty fifth hundred
Speaker 2: page of this document, which no one ever read that
Speaker 2: made it, you know, aiding in a betting, traveling, using
Speaker 2: a banking system everything. That's what finished it for me
Speaker 2: if I wanted to if I continue, my attorney said
Speaker 2: that they would probably charge me with ongoing criminal enterprise.
Speaker 2: I'd have no chance to get my money back. So
Speaker 2: I end up quitting and I turned it over to
Speaker 2: the employees I didn't want. There was employees in Antigua
Speaker 2: and Belize, and we even had an office, a legitimate
Speaker 2: office in London, so we just turned it over to them.
Speaker 2: I didn't want to all lose their jobs. And you know,
Speaker 2: we left them with the deposit money and you know,
Speaker 2: with no one holding the steering wheel. A couple of years,
Speaker 2: they made in like three more years and that was
Speaker 2: the end of it. All the money was gone. I
Speaker 2: think they must they probably stuffed a couple of customers.
Speaker 2: But I was out in October thirteenth, two thousand and six. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and it was perfect for me because my kids were
Speaker 2: nine years old. You know, I could come home spend
Speaker 2: all the time with them. I wanted, you know, I
Speaker 2: just had to get my get through this case. And
Speaker 2: it was the same thing their first offer was had
Speaker 2: to take all my money and give me twenty five years.
Speaker 2: They said, I laundered dollars. I go, who wants to
Speaker 2: feed me for twenty five years? So then they come
Speaker 2: up they're going fifty percent of the money. And we
Speaker 2: told him, I said, Johnny fift away from settling this case.
Speaker 2: Then they try to pull that Bruce Cuttler thing, like
Speaker 2: did John god to get my lawyer off the case.
Speaker 2: And they told him that he was gonna charge him
Speaker 2: for you know, I try to set up a trust
Speaker 2: one time and I transferred the money through him. They
Speaker 2: said he laundered the money and he wouldn't back off.
Speaker 2: He was great. But the thing that I knew from
Speaker 2: the beginning, when you're fighting with the US government, you
Speaker 2: hire a courtroom atturn. If you hire a guy that's
Speaker 2: known for making deals, they don't take it serious. They
Speaker 2: know that they don't have to work. They're gonna make
Speaker 2: good deal. And he went all away. We had some
Speaker 2: tough days, went all the way to two thousand and twelve.
Speaker 2: August twelve, twenty twelve, they said, by this time there
Speaker 2: was eight million dollars there and the interest rate. You know,
Speaker 2: you went through the two thousand and eight period where
Speaker 2: the banks could have been charging you for keeping their money,
Speaker 2: and some of the money was froze. The cash they
Speaker 2: had it had growed to eight million dollars. So they said,
Speaker 2: we'll give you seven point five million dollars back, and
Speaker 2: the money that you have in England you could bring
Speaker 2: it back here with no taxable implicate implications. And they
Speaker 2: just wanted to show that they got five hundred thousand
Speaker 2: from me, and they won, right like they won won
Speaker 2: the case because they they were dead. The treaty said
Speaker 2: in that treaty that these companies could run these businesses,
Speaker 2: but they were using the term saying, well, we're not
Speaker 2: after the company, we're after an individual, so we could
Speaker 2: go after this individual.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: They were trying to go outside the spirit of the agreement,
Speaker 2: you know. So they didn't even want that to get
Speaker 2: out about the treaty because all the rest of their
Speaker 2: cases would fall apart against everybody else if anybody wanted
Speaker 2: to go the whole nine yards, right, and so we
Speaker 2: went the whole way. We beat them. We give them
Speaker 2: the half a million dollars. My lawyer said, listen, we
Speaker 2: could fight for two more years and get it all,
Speaker 2: or get this behind us and then when they wrote
Speaker 2: up the agreement, they wrote it up as a deal
Speaker 2: instead of a fourth fiture forfeiture. So it took it
Speaker 2: to my tax attorney gave me something that's called supper
Speaker 2: monthal authority, where his advice was, you could write this
Speaker 2: off because this is a business expense and if you
Speaker 2: were never in this business, you wouldn't have this expense.
Speaker 2: And the supplemental authority says, if they come back and
Speaker 2: they they they say they don't allow this deduction, then
Speaker 2: they can only charge you interest, no penalty for not
Speaker 2: paying so and the thing. So it worked out. I went,
Speaker 2: I cleared that statue of limitations and it worked out good.
Speaker 2: I wrote off all my attorney's fees. I wrote off
Speaker 2: to half a million dollars here and I'm living happily
Speaker 2: ever after.
Speaker 1: Yeah, got to spend time with your kids. Had a
Speaker 1: hell of a ride all those years.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I had a nice ride. And you know,
Speaker 2: my son went to his graduate at Columbia and as
Speaker 2: a creative writing and he wrote a book about Brazil
Speaker 2: because they were They grew up half the time in Brazil.
Speaker 2: My wife's Brazilian. We live in Copa Cabana, three or
Speaker 2: four months a year and he wrote a book about Brazil.
Speaker 2: And his next book he wrote was it's called Humpty Dumpty,
Speaker 2: and it's about the local book maker. There's a part
Speaker 2: in there it's about our town and the local bookmaker.
Speaker 2: But his name spelled different. J O h N R
Speaker 2: O d g E r S. You know that's not you, dad.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, the book's not out.
Speaker 2: The book's not out, but I'll bet it is out
Speaker 2: because the first book had a lot in it about
Speaker 2: our lives in Brazil too, so yeah, it should be interesting.
Speaker 1: So well, John, I want to thank you for doing this.
Speaker 1: It's an amazing story. So I really appreciate you taking
Speaker 1: the time with me today.
Speaker 2: I hope I didn't go on too long, you know,
Speaker 2: and I get to you know, this is the fire
Speaker 2: in my belly about the government. I told my attorney
Speaker 2: I was going to write a book one day. I
Speaker 2: had to say, I'm same guy for forty years, right,
Speaker 2: I was going to write a book one day and
Speaker 2: how to live a life of crime and never be
Speaker 2: charged with what. He come back and he said, you're
Speaker 2: going to need a new attorney for that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well that's it for this episode. And I want to
Speaker 1: thank John Rogers again for his amazing story. As always,
Speaker 1: you can reach me at Life is a Gamblepod at
Speaker 1: gmail dot com, or you can find me on Twitter
Speaker 1: at RWM twenty one. Until next time, everybody,