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<v Speaker 1>Hey, everybody, and welcome to life is a gamble. My

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<v Speaker 1>name is Richard Munchkin and my guest today is John Rogers.

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<v Speaker 1>John is an old school bookmaker who started out a

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<v Speaker 1>few miles from Steubenville, Ohio, where he actually had a

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<v Speaker 1>storefront sports book and lived through the transition of the

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<v Speaker 1>old days of carbon paper and using a paper and

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<v Speaker 1>pencil to record people's bets to moving offshore and taking

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<v Speaker 1>bets over the phone to the Internet age, and like

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<v Speaker 1>anybody in that business, he's got an amazing story to tell.

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<v Speaker 1>So let's get right into it. John Rogers, Welcome to

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<v Speaker 1>life as a gamble.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>So I want to really go back to the very beginning,

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<v Speaker 1>and that is when did you for where did you

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<v Speaker 1>grow up? And when did you first start gambling? Do

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<v Speaker 1>you remember the first bet you ever made on anything?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh? My, I growed up in Toronto, Ohio, about nine

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<v Speaker 2>miles up from Steuvenville. Stuphenville is a pretty famous town

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<v Speaker 2>for a lot of these gamblers come out, and casino

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<v Speaker 2>employees and bosses and Jimmy the Greek Dean Martin. So

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<v Speaker 2>there was gambling all around. And my first adventure was

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<v Speaker 2>I was in sixth grade Catholic School. The monsignor asked

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<v Speaker 2>me if I wanted to go to the racetrack with him. Well, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>by the way, he was the only good one out there.

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<v Speaker 2>I'll tell you you know, I could have been at

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<v Speaker 2>made a fortune right now if he would have molested me.

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<v Speaker 2>But you went in busch. Maybe I wasn't his type.

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<v Speaker 2>But he was a great guy, very great. So we

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<v Speaker 2>go to the racetrack. He gives me a couple of dollars,

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<v Speaker 2>I make a few bets. We have a good time.

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<v Speaker 2>And when I was in sixth grade, everybody was talking

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<v Speaker 2>about baseball, so I said, well, you know, guys want

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<v Speaker 2>to bet it, and so all the games were even

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<v Speaker 2>you could. All you have to do is pick a

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<v Speaker 2>winner twenty five dollars, just straight bets, and it was

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<v Speaker 2>pretty successful. I won about seven dollars off of the

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<v Speaker 2>fellas in a couple of weeks, and I had it

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<v Speaker 2>in a library book. And I didn show up for

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<v Speaker 2>school one day and they turned in my library book

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<v Speaker 2>and found that seven dollars and they wanted to investigate

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<v Speaker 2>where I got that money it was from. So they

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<v Speaker 2>brought me in the office and asked me, and I

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<v Speaker 2>told him I was, you know, taking baseball games from

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<v Speaker 2>the the other students, So that didn't go either. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>they wanted me to bring my mother and dad in,

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<v Speaker 2>and I said, my mother works at Duck School. We

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<v Speaker 2>don't have to bother my dad. So they said, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>you do. So the nuns were worse than the FBI

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<v Speaker 2>because they made me donate the money to church. And

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<v Speaker 2>I had a Duck walk up and down the hall

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<v Speaker 2>after she beat my knuckles with a ruler.

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<v Speaker 1>So, now, wait a minute, where was your edge if

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<v Speaker 1>you just had to pick one side of the other

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<v Speaker 1>of a baseball game.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but there's six graders. I mean, what do they

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<v Speaker 2>know what?

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<v Speaker 1>But still if you have no juice, like right.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, an ap would have did pretty good there. But

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<v Speaker 2>you know, yeah, these were sixth graders.

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<v Speaker 1>So so you ended up as an adult becoming a

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<v Speaker 1>book maker and actually a book maker.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I went right into high school. I booked in

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<v Speaker 2>high school. I booked parlays only, parlays only in high school.

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<v Speaker 2>Got the sheets. I was a freshman. I was booking

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<v Speaker 2>everybody in the school, and I was probably you know,

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<v Speaker 2>probably three four hundred dollars a week, you know, five

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<v Speaker 2>ten dollars right.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow.

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<v Speaker 2>So there was this pool room that I used to

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<v Speaker 2>shoot pool on the seventh and eighth grade, and the

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<v Speaker 2>lady booked numbers in parlays too. So I was a

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<v Speaker 2>sophomore and I come home. My mother's crying on a couch.

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<v Speaker 2>I said, you know what's wrong? She said. The lady

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<v Speaker 2>from the poolroom called said, you're stealing her business. My mother,

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<v Speaker 2>don't stop me. They will and I go, well, Mom,

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<v Speaker 2>I'll take care of this. Don't worry about it. So

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<v Speaker 2>I took care of it, and I got up early

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<v Speaker 2>in the morning and went down and I threw a

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<v Speaker 2>book right through her window. And then I went at

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<v Speaker 2>lunch time and play some daily numbers. I said, don't

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<v Speaker 2>ever call my mother again. And that was the last

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<v Speaker 2>I heard of her. So I continued through high school,

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<v Speaker 2>and I was It was odd because when I was

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<v Speaker 2>in high school, I wasn't allowed to have a paper

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<v Speaker 2>and a pen, and I knew that I wasn't going

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<v Speaker 2>to go to college. And I had a bunch of

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<v Speaker 2>study halls because I need only couple classes to graduate,

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<v Speaker 2>and they didn't want me with paper and pen in

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<v Speaker 2>there because they knew what I was up to. So

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<v Speaker 2>when I graduated, and one kid had wrote in my

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<v Speaker 2>yearbook that I was the only one that ever said

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<v Speaker 2>what they were going to do and did I said,

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<v Speaker 2>I was going to be a bookmaker. So I opened

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<v Speaker 2>up right out of high school and have walked in

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<v Speaker 2>places and they're not unusual in this area where you

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<v Speaker 2>can walk in and put a bet down. We had

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<v Speaker 2>the boards up.

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<v Speaker 1>That's that's amazing. So that I mean, so I guess

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<v Speaker 1>Steubenville was just a wide open town as far as gambling,

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<v Speaker 1>if you were allowed to have a walk in.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>So just like a storefront, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>That was we had hats. The hats were like fifty

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<v Speaker 2>some dollars. That way, nobody would buy. I mean, we

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<v Speaker 2>didn't have to replenish our inventory. So and then we

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<v Speaker 2>got into booking daily numbers, you know the numbers, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think in the like seventy eight, they started

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<v Speaker 2>with the Ohio number. The Pennsylvania numbers started first in

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<v Speaker 2>the West Virginia, and we used to take all three

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<v Speaker 2>states because we're right on the river. So it was

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<v Speaker 2>called POW Pennsylvania, Ohio, and West Virginia. So you'd come

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<v Speaker 2>in play POW all three states. You know, they're fifty

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<v Speaker 2>cents buy a dime or something like that, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>and the ladies really like that. We paid, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>when the places were paying five to one, five hundred

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<v Speaker 2>to one, we were paid six hundred to one. So

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<v Speaker 2>we got a lot of business in the Numbers and

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<v Speaker 2>numbers was big. Everybody had dream books and numbers, and

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<v Speaker 2>you know they had them all. We had an old

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<v Speaker 2>butcher in there. We called him the psychic prognosticator because

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<v Speaker 2>he Everybody used to ask the butcher but for a number,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, and he was to give numbers and sometimes

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<v Speaker 2>they would hit. So after he retired from them, I

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<v Speaker 2>had him working in my place and he brought in

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<v Speaker 2>all the women customers. It was beautiful. What so one

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<v Speaker 2>day he uh, I asked him, I said, Adam, give

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<v Speaker 2>me a give me a number. And he's seen the

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<v Speaker 2>layoff sheet. We used to lay off anything over twenty dollars.

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<v Speaker 2>So I write twenty dollars and he tells me seven

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<v Speaker 2>four eight. I write it on. He sees that, and

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<v Speaker 2>that night I get a call right after the numbers

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<v Speaker 2>are drawn, and he said, you better take care of me,

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<v Speaker 2>You better take care of me. I said, what's what's

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<v Speaker 2>what's up? Man, what's up? Seven four eight? Hit right

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<v Speaker 2>on the button. I said, that's great. You know, I

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<v Speaker 2>went like twelve thousand dollars. It was fantastic. I go

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<v Speaker 2>down and threw all the tickets for the next day

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<v Speaker 2>down there. He gave it to everybody in town. I

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<v Speaker 2>had to pay out like fifty thousand dollars, and he

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<v Speaker 2>still wanted me to give him a tip. The psychic prognosticated, Wow.

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<v Speaker 2>This lasted till Super Bowl nineteen ninety where I was

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<v Speaker 2>having a party at my house up the shop. We

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<v Speaker 2>were open till the Super Bowl opens. Next scene.

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<v Speaker 1>Wait, let me stop you just a second. So I

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<v Speaker 1>would have thought when the state lotteries came in that

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<v Speaker 1>that would have really bit into the numbers business. But

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<v Speaker 1>but no, it was still going strong.

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<v Speaker 2>It was. It went better because it was when they

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<v Speaker 2>the states started throwing it. They started putting them on TV,

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<v Speaker 2>and before it was a stock number, and then on

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<v Speaker 2>the weekends it was a race number, if you're familiar

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<v Speaker 2>with that. So they would use the last number of

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<v Speaker 2>the advances, decline and unchanges, and that's how they would

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<v Speaker 2>come up with the daily number, daily stock number. And

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<v Speaker 2>once it started having drawings at seven and seven thirty,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, and the states were having and it was big.

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<v Speaker 2>The States are paying five hundred to one. You bet

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<v Speaker 2>a dollar, you went five hundred. We were paying six

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<v Speaker 2>hundred to one, bet a dollar and six hundred. And

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<v Speaker 2>then we had a deal for them on Mondays if

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<v Speaker 2>you come in and they didn't have Sunday numbers there.

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<v Speaker 2>So if you come in on Monday and played your

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<v Speaker 2>numbers for all week and paid for all week, you

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<v Speaker 2>pay for five days, get the six day free. So

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<v Speaker 2>that was huge. People like deals, people like sales. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>they sure sure about themselves. So the number numbers was very,

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<v Speaker 2>very big business. And still you know, you're holding thirty

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<v Speaker 2>forty percent on the number.

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<v Speaker 1>So yeah, it was that a bigger business for you

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<v Speaker 1>than the sports betting or or how did that break down?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it was probably even because a lot of the

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<v Speaker 2>customers that played the numbers would come into the front

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<v Speaker 2>and you'd have to walk into the back to see

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<v Speaker 2>the board and all the the uh, the the games

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<v Speaker 2>that were on the board, and then in the back

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<v Speaker 2>room we had pogram machine where you could play pogram machines.

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<v Speaker 1>So we it was just a wow, a license to

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<v Speaker 1>print money.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it was pretty good. It was. It was pretty good.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, even when I was away. The guys who

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<v Speaker 2>were running the place, you know, they always got the

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<v Speaker 2>first count. And even when I was away, I made money.

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<v Speaker 1>So now I grew up outside Chicago, and I used

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<v Speaker 1>to play poker with a couple of pretty large book

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<v Speaker 1>makers and they had to sort of kick money off

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<v Speaker 1>to the outfit guys. Was that a problem in Steubenville?

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<v Speaker 2>Uh? Well, you know it was Toronto. Now Steubenville was

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<v Speaker 2>a different, different animal. Okay, Stutville was nine miles down there.

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<v Speaker 2>They had their bookies and there was a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>paying off that went on down there. But I didn't

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<v Speaker 2>participate in that. I had I had someone looking out for.

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<v Speaker 1>Me for.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, because of my my you know, my mother

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<v Speaker 2>grew up in Steubenville. And the guy took a liking

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<v Speaker 2>to me, and he would let me know what was

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<v Speaker 2>going on, you know, if somebody was going to try

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<v Speaker 2>to rob us, or somebody was asking questions about us.

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<v Speaker 2>But you know, no, we didn't. We didn't pay any policemen.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, they had a job to do.

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<v Speaker 1>And yeah, did you ever get robbed?

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<v Speaker 2>H No, these guys in jail were going to rob us,

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<v Speaker 2>and he the guy from the his name was Phil

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<v Speaker 2>from the coin store Filmatucci from Steubenville, called me up,

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<v Speaker 2>told me come down, and he goes, they're talking about,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, robbing you and you're you park in the back.

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<v Speaker 2>He goes, before it gets dark, move your car around

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<v Speaker 2>the front. They got they have they don't have the

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<v Speaker 2>balls to rob you from the front. So because we

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<v Speaker 2>were right on the streets, you know. Yeah, so then

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<v Speaker 2>you know, we talked to the guys that were thinking

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<v Speaker 2>about it and they just their minds. So we never

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<v Speaker 2>had any problems like that.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh that's good. So anyway you were saying Super Bowl

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen ninety.

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<v Speaker 2>Super Bowl nineteen ninety, everything's calm. But we were always

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<v Speaker 2>you know, knew that they liked to raid on Super Bowls, right,

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<v Speaker 2>So everybody had come in. We had a timestamp on

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<v Speaker 2>these tickets, so everybody had come in. We just took

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<v Speaker 2>the tickets and we would run them through the shredder.

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<v Speaker 2>Now nobody knew that we were doing that. We didn't

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<v Speaker 2>have the tickets. We didn't want to have any tickets

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<v Speaker 2>on us, and we had the janitor in there and

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<v Speaker 2>we told him to if anything happens, we were feeling this.

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<v Speaker 2>He had a suit jacket because he always went to

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<v Speaker 2>church and if anything happened, just walk out the door

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<v Speaker 2>and I'll see it tomorrow. And we were putting the

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<v Speaker 2>money in this suit jacket. Well, the FBI had to

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<v Speaker 2>place but and they knew the plan. But the only

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<v Speaker 2>thing they didn't know what the janitor look like in

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<v Speaker 2>a suit. They knew what he looked like, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>wearing a baseball hat everywhere, baseball hats and everything. And

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<v Speaker 2>when they raided us up there a couple hours before

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<v Speaker 2>the Super Bowl, George, his IQ is like maybe seventy

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<v Speaker 2>or whatever. But he had a good heart. He walks

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<v Speaker 2>right out the door like he's supposed to. So I'm

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<v Speaker 2>at home by now, and there is Chevrolet's all through

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<v Speaker 2>my yard about twelve fifteen cars, and my garage door's open.

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<v Speaker 2>Now I hear a knock on my door, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>He walked in the garage, knocked on my door, opened up,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's George. He said, Boss, we got rated up

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<v Speaker 2>town that I figured that George. Who brought you here?

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<v Speaker 2>He said, Keith. I said, well, get he's car and

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<v Speaker 2>I'll see you tomorrow. Now, the FBI was up upstairs

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<v Speaker 2>searching through the house. Jesus, and there is no cell

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<v Speaker 2>phones at the time. FBI didn't happen in the nineties,

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<v Speaker 2>and my house phone rings and they want to talk

247
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<v Speaker 2>to the agent and charge the people uptown. They said, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>we missed George. He must have walked out the door.

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<v Speaker 2>We didn't recognize him. Did he show up there? The

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00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:30.279
<v Speaker 2>guy goes, no, we haven't seen him. So they got

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00:15:30.399 --> 00:15:35.559
<v Speaker 2>zero tickets. They got zero money. And you know, they

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<v Speaker 2>just come in and did the search and seizure and

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<v Speaker 2>you know, and they had they had to come down

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<v Speaker 2>and ask me, can you ask your mother to sit

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<v Speaker 2>on the back porch while we searched the house. She's

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<v Speaker 2>given us a hard time, So that's the tie in

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<v Speaker 2>in her. You know, he's giving them a hard time.

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<v Speaker 2>You take my son, you're gonna have to take me

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<v Speaker 2>with you. I said, come on, I just relaxed, let

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<v Speaker 2>them do their job and we could get all with

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00:16:00.200 --> 00:16:05.000
<v Speaker 2>our parties. But the funny story was my niece was

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<v Speaker 2>like three years old. She went to the hospital and

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<v Speaker 2>her father went to YEO, he's a pretty smart, wise guy.

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<v Speaker 2>And I used to say to her hospital and I'd

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<v Speaker 2>make her cry. So she was about three years old,

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<v Speaker 2>and her dad told her, say FBI to him. This

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00:16:21.639 --> 00:16:24.639
<v Speaker 2>is prior to the bus, Say FBI to him. That

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00:16:24.679 --> 00:16:26.919
<v Speaker 2>will make him cry. And I'd act like I cry,

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<v Speaker 2>Say FBI raids the house. They got hats on FBI.

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<v Speaker 2>She's three years old. I'm sure she can't figure out.

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<v Speaker 2>She run around moring FBI, FBI and goes, how does

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<v Speaker 2>she know? So that that set me back. We had

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<v Speaker 2>to shut down for a while.

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<v Speaker 1>And so if they didn't find any tickets or any money,

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<v Speaker 1>then did they end up not charging you with anything. No.

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<v Speaker 2>They had seven one hundred and fifty hours of recording,

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<v Speaker 2>so they were dealing with I have quite a bit

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00:17:07.519 --> 00:17:11.359
<v Speaker 2>of money, so they thought that I was selling drugs,

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00:17:11.400 --> 00:17:15.119
<v Speaker 2>and seven hundred and fifty hours of tate there was

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<v Speaker 2>drugs weren't mentioned one time. So I was probably a

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00:17:19.200 --> 00:17:23.759
<v Speaker 2>bigger better than I was a bookmaker then, so and

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<v Speaker 2>everybody got busted in the area, and I was like,

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<v Speaker 2>if they had a chart, I would be at the

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<v Speaker 2>top of the list because I was calling these guys,

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00:17:33.160 --> 00:17:36.119
<v Speaker 2>you know, and betting and they were laying off to me.

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<v Speaker 2>So that was that they got guys from Pittsburgh, Youngstown

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<v Speaker 2>and East Liverpool across the river weird and ironically nobody

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<v Speaker 2>in Steubenville. So uh that that that that went on,

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00:17:53.759 --> 00:17:55.839
<v Speaker 2>and so I was going to fight the case. The

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<v Speaker 2>worst I could have got with the I think the

291
00:18:00.480 --> 00:18:04.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, the sentence in guidelines was twelve months and

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00:18:05.119 --> 00:18:08.039
<v Speaker 2>Molnsville or somewhere wouldn't have been too bad. So I said,

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<v Speaker 2>now I'm going to fight it. I want to see

294
00:18:10.279 --> 00:18:15.759
<v Speaker 2>this process how it goes. So I'm not giving up,

295
00:18:16.640 --> 00:18:19.160
<v Speaker 2>not giving up. But I had a problem. I had

296
00:18:19.279 --> 00:18:22.480
<v Speaker 2>seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars in CDs in the

297
00:18:22.559 --> 00:18:26.599
<v Speaker 2>bank because I was claiming my income and I'm trying

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00:18:26.599 --> 00:18:28.160
<v Speaker 2>to figure out how am I going to get this

299
00:18:28.359 --> 00:18:32.359
<v Speaker 2>cash out of there without them, you know, taking it,

300
00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:36.319
<v Speaker 2>because they eventually were going to come up and seize

301
00:18:36.400 --> 00:18:39.200
<v Speaker 2>that money. They just needed to go through some evidence

302
00:18:39.279 --> 00:18:42.680
<v Speaker 2>or whatever. So I get go to the bank, I said,

303
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<v Speaker 2>I'm want to cash his CD in early and I said,

304
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<v Speaker 2>I want five five fifty thousand dollars cashiers checks. They said, okay,

305
00:18:52.599 --> 00:18:54.599
<v Speaker 2>I fly to Vegas. I go down and put them

306
00:18:54.640 --> 00:18:58.440
<v Speaker 2>up in five different hotels and each morning I go out,

307
00:18:58.559 --> 00:19:02.119
<v Speaker 2>I take a five thousand dollars. I'd play a little bit,

308
00:19:02.279 --> 00:19:06.880
<v Speaker 2>probably half or forty five minutes. Cash out, get the cash,

309
00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:09.279
<v Speaker 2>go up to the window. They say, you have any markers.

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00:19:09.319 --> 00:19:12.039
<v Speaker 2>I go, I got a cash deposit. They give me

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00:19:12.079 --> 00:19:15.200
<v Speaker 2>the money. Then I put it in a place out

312
00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:17.359
<v Speaker 2>there called the vault. You ever hear of the vault?

313
00:19:17.559 --> 00:19:20.119
<v Speaker 1>Oh? Yeah, yeah, that place got ropped.

314
00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:23.599
<v Speaker 2>Well, thank god I was out of there by.

315
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<v Speaker 1>This, yeah yeah.

316
00:19:25.799 --> 00:19:27.839
<v Speaker 2>And then I went back home. I got the other

317
00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:31.000
<v Speaker 2>five hundred thousand. I did the same thing. And at

318
00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:33.319
<v Speaker 2>the time it was great because they would say what

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00:19:33.319 --> 00:19:34.960
<v Speaker 2>can I do for you? What can I do for you?

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00:19:35.000 --> 00:19:37.960
<v Speaker 2>I said, can you pay for my first class airfare?

321
00:19:38.759 --> 00:19:41.400
<v Speaker 2>And I flew out their coat. So I would get

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00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:45.400
<v Speaker 2>buy a first class air ticket and they would pay

323
00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:47.759
<v Speaker 2>me reimburse me for it, you know, one way on

324
00:19:47.759 --> 00:19:50.440
<v Speaker 2>the way home. And I would do that to two

325
00:19:50.519 --> 00:19:54.000
<v Speaker 2>or three hotel. Then they got smart and they start

326
00:19:54.119 --> 00:19:57.920
<v Speaker 2>stamping them tickets that they were paid by the Tropicana

327
00:19:58.039 --> 00:20:01.640
<v Speaker 2>or paid by Mirage, and I could only could use

328
00:20:01.640 --> 00:20:05.519
<v Speaker 2>them one time. Right then you could just catch them in,

329
00:20:06.279 --> 00:20:09.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, get your money back. So that was a

330
00:20:09.240 --> 00:20:10.200
<v Speaker 2>pretty good gig.

331
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<v Speaker 1>So really smart that you paid the tax, you know,

332
00:20:14.759 --> 00:20:17.039
<v Speaker 1>so many guys don't want to pay the taxes. But

333
00:20:17.799 --> 00:20:21.039
<v Speaker 1>you know, you could have really good screwed if you

334
00:20:21.079 --> 00:20:22.279
<v Speaker 1>hadn't paid your taxes.

335
00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:25.720
<v Speaker 2>Right, you have to pay. You have to pay, and

336
00:20:25.799 --> 00:20:29.119
<v Speaker 2>let them figure out if you paid it off. You know, yeah,

337
00:20:29.160 --> 00:20:32.039
<v Speaker 2>if you pay Zebra, it's easy to figure out.

338
00:20:32.519 --> 00:20:33.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

339
00:20:33.759 --> 00:20:38.440
<v Speaker 2>So I loafed around Vegas from ninety and ninety three,

340
00:20:38.519 --> 00:20:42.440
<v Speaker 2>were making bets out there and just trying to figure

341
00:20:42.440 --> 00:20:44.240
<v Speaker 2>out what I was going to do get this case

342
00:20:44.319 --> 00:20:47.079
<v Speaker 2>behind me, and they kept delaying it. They won't. They

343
00:20:47.079 --> 00:20:49.319
<v Speaker 2>didn't charge me. They didn't charge me. They wanted me

344
00:20:49.400 --> 00:20:52.160
<v Speaker 2>to give up. And they called in a bunch of

345
00:20:53.079 --> 00:20:57.400
<v Speaker 2>people from my hometown and half of them, or more

346
00:20:57.400 --> 00:20:59.480
<v Speaker 2>than half of them, come to me. Said they're calling me,

347
00:20:59.559 --> 00:21:02.200
<v Speaker 2>and what's and I tell them And I said, tell

348
00:21:02.240 --> 00:21:06.200
<v Speaker 2>them the truth, what you know that I did. Don't

349
00:21:06.200 --> 00:21:08.480
<v Speaker 2>tell them what you heard I did, because you know

350
00:21:08.680 --> 00:21:12.039
<v Speaker 2>Nut's here said you could tell them the truth, but

351
00:21:12.279 --> 00:21:15.079
<v Speaker 2>because you know I was not going to corrupt justice,

352
00:21:15.599 --> 00:21:17.759
<v Speaker 2>and you know, give them an easy charge on me.

353
00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:22.519
<v Speaker 2>So they went in there and the FBI even told

354
00:21:22.519 --> 00:21:25.359
<v Speaker 2>my attorney he said he told these guys just to

355
00:21:25.400 --> 00:21:28.599
<v Speaker 2>tell the truth. You know, I was a bookmaker. That

356
00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:31.400
<v Speaker 2>was it. I mean was going there at eight o'clock

357
00:21:31.400 --> 00:21:33.640
<v Speaker 2>in the morning leaving at seven o'clock at night. I mean,

358
00:21:33.680 --> 00:21:35.160
<v Speaker 2>what do they think I was doing in there?

359
00:21:35.640 --> 00:21:35.960
<v Speaker 1>Right?

360
00:21:37.240 --> 00:21:41.039
<v Speaker 2>So that went on and kept lingering on. Tonight one

361
00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:43.319
<v Speaker 2>of my old customers said, Hey, we have this thing.

362
00:21:44.200 --> 00:21:46.279
<v Speaker 2>I got this thing in Antigua where they're going to

363
00:21:46.359 --> 00:21:50.519
<v Speaker 2>give us ninety nine years tax free. We can you

364
00:21:50.599 --> 00:21:54.680
<v Speaker 2>could book customers from the United States, but you can't

365
00:21:54.720 --> 00:21:59.279
<v Speaker 2>book any local. And I said, how did this come about?

366
00:21:59.319 --> 00:22:04.559
<v Speaker 2>He goes and eighteen ninety two your Way treaty within

367
00:22:04.599 --> 00:22:08.359
<v Speaker 2>the United States. They had took away their sugar cane

368
00:22:08.400 --> 00:22:11.799
<v Speaker 2>down there for something in Antigua, and they give them entertainment,

369
00:22:12.200 --> 00:22:17.720
<v Speaker 2>and listed on an entertainment was gaming. So that made him.

370
00:22:18.359 --> 00:22:21.079
<v Speaker 2>That made it so they could open up a new industry.

371
00:22:21.319 --> 00:22:26.240
<v Speaker 2>So the company was already down there. The guy from

372
00:22:26.319 --> 00:22:30.519
<v Speaker 2>Las Vegas, Kenny White, had a relative down there and

373
00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:35.200
<v Speaker 2>he knew this guy that bet with me. So Kenny

374
00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:39.519
<v Speaker 2>White and them guys opened this business in July of

375
00:22:40.440 --> 00:22:43.279
<v Speaker 2>July thirteenth. I was just looking at the license nineteen

376
00:22:43.400 --> 00:22:47.119
<v Speaker 2>ninety three, and they were working it pretty good. But

377
00:22:47.240 --> 00:22:50.519
<v Speaker 2>the phone bill were like it was like a dollar

378
00:22:50.680 --> 00:22:54.880
<v Speaker 2>US dollar a minute, so you couldn't beat the phone bill.

379
00:22:55.640 --> 00:22:58.319
<v Speaker 2>And so by the end of the year, Kenny, they

380
00:22:58.359 --> 00:23:01.880
<v Speaker 2>had enough. And this guy asked me if I wanted

381
00:23:01.880 --> 00:23:03.720
<v Speaker 2>to go down there and look at it, because I

382
00:23:03.799 --> 00:23:07.319
<v Speaker 2>wasn't working. I went down there and looked at it.

383
00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:10.559
<v Speaker 2>The roads were horrible, there was no air conditioning. The

384
00:23:10.599 --> 00:23:14.039
<v Speaker 2>bugs were everywhere. And I said to my friend, I said,

385
00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:18.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm going home and heat like always interrupted me said

386
00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:19.440
<v Speaker 2>I don't blame me. I said, I'm going home and

387
00:23:19.480 --> 00:23:20.960
<v Speaker 2>get my stuff. I'm moving here.

388
00:23:23.000 --> 00:23:25.160
<v Speaker 1>How are you going to beat the how are you

389
00:23:25.160 --> 00:23:26.920
<v Speaker 1>going to beat the price of the phones?

390
00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:31.079
<v Speaker 2>Well, they come up with the local company come up

391
00:23:31.119 --> 00:23:35.480
<v Speaker 2>with that you could use cable and wireless. You know,

392
00:23:35.559 --> 00:23:40.480
<v Speaker 2>it's international company. And they were putting a trunk through

393
00:23:40.799 --> 00:23:44.559
<v Speaker 2>you know or something, and the rates really had changed.

394
00:23:44.960 --> 00:23:49.359
<v Speaker 2>They changed the law and I started taking over. We

395
00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:52.480
<v Speaker 2>started making money. Then they they informed me we had

396
00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:54.680
<v Speaker 2>a ninety thousand dollars bill we had to make up.

397
00:23:54.920 --> 00:23:58.720
<v Speaker 2>So I was in for it. We went there and

398
00:23:58.799 --> 00:24:01.039
<v Speaker 2>it was all paper and and then you know the

399
00:24:01.079 --> 00:24:04.720
<v Speaker 2>old days where you you uh writing down on a

400
00:24:04.720 --> 00:24:08.359
<v Speaker 2>piece of paper, split the paper and night. You know,

401
00:24:08.519 --> 00:24:11.160
<v Speaker 2>you have a stack of papers like this. One guy's

402
00:24:11.200 --> 00:24:14.759
<v Speaker 2>grading the yellow copy, you're grading the white copy, and

403
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:17.160
<v Speaker 2>then you're coming up with figures. It was a lot

404
00:24:17.200 --> 00:24:18.160
<v Speaker 2>of work back then.

405
00:24:18.759 --> 00:24:25.519
<v Speaker 1>You know, you really lived through this amazing transition in

406
00:24:25.599 --> 00:24:29.599
<v Speaker 1>the whole field of sports betting. Oh, I mean from

407
00:24:29.640 --> 00:24:33.920
<v Speaker 1>being on the phone, pencil and paper, you know, carbon copies,

408
00:24:34.039 --> 00:24:39.799
<v Speaker 1>all of that two you know, the the internet days.

409
00:24:40.039 --> 00:24:45.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so we it ramped ups. We did that until

410
00:24:45.240 --> 00:24:48.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, most of these companies were hired hundreds of

411
00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:54.240
<v Speaker 2>an employee. We ours at the carib was one hundred

412
00:24:54.279 --> 00:24:58.799
<v Speaker 2>dollars minimum bet because we we wanted to grow up,

413
00:24:58.960 --> 00:25:02.160
<v Speaker 2>not out, and so we didn't want to hunt our

414
00:25:02.200 --> 00:25:04.519
<v Speaker 2>employees taking the phone. The phone bill was still a

415
00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:08.599
<v Speaker 2>little bit expensive. And so the beginning of ninety seven,

416
00:25:09.160 --> 00:25:12.319
<v Speaker 2>in the ninety sixty years, something about this internet. In

417
00:25:12.440 --> 00:25:14.960
<v Speaker 2>ninety seven, at the end of it, this company come

418
00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:17.920
<v Speaker 2>to me and had a program, and we put the

419
00:25:17.960 --> 00:25:23.799
<v Speaker 2>program in and it was working good, but it would

420
00:25:23.799 --> 00:25:28.759
<v Speaker 2>only take one hundred and fifty bets at the same time.

421
00:25:29.559 --> 00:25:32.279
<v Speaker 2>So that's not going to work for us because we

422
00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:36.279
<v Speaker 2>need a lot more than that. So we ended up

423
00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:39.319
<v Speaker 2>a guy was working down there for a company that

424
00:25:39.400 --> 00:25:42.839
<v Speaker 2>had disputed over money. He come to us, wanted to

425
00:25:42.839 --> 00:25:47.119
<v Speaker 2>build us a program. I said, this is too new

426
00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:50.839
<v Speaker 2>of you leaving this company. I don't want them to

427
00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:53.920
<v Speaker 2>say that I stole you from them. Come back in

428
00:25:53.960 --> 00:25:56.440
<v Speaker 2>a month if you're not doing anything. And he come

429
00:25:56.480 --> 00:25:59.119
<v Speaker 2>back in about a month he said, I got this

430
00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:03.920
<v Speaker 2>program right, and it was our own proprietary software. We

431
00:26:03.960 --> 00:26:07.319
<v Speaker 2>could make changes on the fly, and off we went.

432
00:26:08.240 --> 00:26:11.200
<v Speaker 2>We had everything on there. We had daily numbers from

433
00:26:11.200 --> 00:26:16.119
<v Speaker 2>all the states. We put horse racing on there. We

434
00:26:16.200 --> 00:26:18.559
<v Speaker 2>had you could bet the doal Jones whether it was

435
00:26:18.599 --> 00:26:19.559
<v Speaker 2>going up and down.

436
00:26:20.559 --> 00:26:24.200
<v Speaker 1>Oh wow, we had these. And your company was called

437
00:26:24.279 --> 00:26:27.240
<v Speaker 1>carib Right, carib Sports, rib Sports.

438
00:26:27.359 --> 00:26:32.119
<v Speaker 2>Yes. So we had all these unique things on our site,

439
00:26:32.160 --> 00:26:34.559
<v Speaker 2>these squares that they talk about. You know, you start

440
00:26:34.599 --> 00:26:37.680
<v Speaker 2>without like a one hundred blocks and you fill them

441
00:26:37.759 --> 00:26:41.039
<v Speaker 2>in and you know, if the score is eight to six,

442
00:26:41.319 --> 00:26:44.960
<v Speaker 2>you you know, you do that. Them things sold like crazy.

443
00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:47.000
<v Speaker 2>It was like a ten percent hold on them things.

444
00:26:47.039 --> 00:26:52.599
<v Speaker 2>And they we were selling fifty sixty of them every week,

445
00:26:53.480 --> 00:26:58.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, I mean probably more. But I went down

446
00:26:58.039 --> 00:27:01.440
<v Speaker 2>there not knowing anything about these guys how they worked.

447
00:27:01.480 --> 00:27:07.960
<v Speaker 2>I'm not a intellectual mathematician, you know, like these guys

448
00:27:07.960 --> 00:27:10.640
<v Speaker 2>are setting the lines. But the only thing I had

449
00:27:10.759 --> 00:27:15.359
<v Speaker 2>was a good grass of the obvious. So when when

450
00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:17.160
<v Speaker 2>they would come in, a guy would come in and

451
00:27:17.160 --> 00:27:20.160
<v Speaker 2>bet something, we would move it. And the next guy

452
00:27:20.279 --> 00:27:23.160
<v Speaker 2>come in and we would give him the number, you know,

453
00:27:23.720 --> 00:27:25.799
<v Speaker 2>move from four to four and a half. He wouldn't

454
00:27:26.119 --> 00:27:28.079
<v Speaker 2>bet it. So I had to figure, well, I must

455
00:27:28.160 --> 00:27:31.839
<v Speaker 2>have something here. He don't want to bet it. Then

456
00:27:31.880 --> 00:27:36.079
<v Speaker 2>if I move it from you know, too far, guy

457
00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:38.880
<v Speaker 2>might bet it back. Then you know, I just move

458
00:27:38.920 --> 00:27:42.559
<v Speaker 2>it back. So after a while we figured out if

459
00:27:42.599 --> 00:27:45.200
<v Speaker 2>we give them a dime on the side and the

460
00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:48.880
<v Speaker 2>nickel on a total, you know, there's still one to

461
00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:52.839
<v Speaker 2>bet because they know they're going to get paid. So

462
00:27:53.880 --> 00:27:58.240
<v Speaker 2>we probably every year we would probably lose a half

463
00:27:58.240 --> 00:28:02.119
<v Speaker 2>a million dollars to the wise guys diamond and nickel.

464
00:28:02.839 --> 00:28:06.880
<v Speaker 2>But our line was strong and we would beat everybody else.

465
00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:10.079
<v Speaker 1>And you'll take the information and try to go bet

466
00:28:10.160 --> 00:28:11.200
<v Speaker 1>at other places.

467
00:28:11.839 --> 00:28:16.119
<v Speaker 2>No, no, because you know the same thing. You know,

468
00:28:17.920 --> 00:28:21.200
<v Speaker 2>people were down there. You know, more and more groups

469
00:28:21.240 --> 00:28:25.480
<v Speaker 2>are coming to Antigua. Right, So when we started advertising,

470
00:28:25.559 --> 00:28:28.960
<v Speaker 2>we were Antigua and you could play do this legally,

471
00:28:29.720 --> 00:28:32.680
<v Speaker 2>more people were coming and I'll say for every ten

472
00:28:32.759 --> 00:28:35.920
<v Speaker 2>that got down there, three or four must have got

473
00:28:35.920 --> 00:28:40.519
<v Speaker 2>in business. And maybe out of the four, one made it.

474
00:28:40.599 --> 00:28:43.920
<v Speaker 2>Because there was guys down there just ripping and tearing

475
00:28:43.960 --> 00:28:47.000
<v Speaker 2>people off, you know, saying them they could get them this,

476
00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:51.599
<v Speaker 2>they get this, they got this connection, that connection never

477
00:28:51.680 --> 00:28:57.079
<v Speaker 2>get anything going. Most of them used the depositive money

478
00:28:57.119 --> 00:29:01.079
<v Speaker 2>of customers instead of having their their own money, and

479
00:29:01.119 --> 00:29:05.720
<v Speaker 2>when they would, you know, burn through the money, they

480
00:29:05.720 --> 00:29:09.319
<v Speaker 2>didn't have any money to pay the customers. But Crib

481
00:29:09.359 --> 00:29:13.240
<v Speaker 2>we always did one thing. We kept two million dollars

482
00:29:13.400 --> 00:29:18.759
<v Speaker 2>over on hand, over the deposit money, so we always

483
00:29:18.799 --> 00:29:25.359
<v Speaker 2>had it. So when later on in two thousand and three,

484
00:29:25.839 --> 00:29:29.240
<v Speaker 2>when the Justice Department got me, they did.

485
00:29:29.119 --> 00:29:32.640
<v Speaker 1>It for what wait, was this the nineteen ninety case

486
00:29:32.680 --> 00:29:33.480
<v Speaker 1>finally or.

487
00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:37.359
<v Speaker 2>No, the nineteen ninety case was over in ninety seven.

488
00:29:38.200 --> 00:29:43.200
<v Speaker 2>They failed to charge me because they had an agent

489
00:29:43.880 --> 00:29:50.359
<v Speaker 2>that approached me and he once, I'm have a lawyer,

490
00:29:50.359 --> 00:29:53.000
<v Speaker 2>he's not allowed to talk to me. We were at

491
00:29:53.039 --> 00:29:57.119
<v Speaker 2>our country club. We were matched up on the on

492
00:29:57.160 --> 00:30:03.079
<v Speaker 2>a team in an event. He was trying to intimidate me.

493
00:30:03.119 --> 00:30:06.079
<v Speaker 2>A deer laying across the field. He pulled his pistol

494
00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:08.400
<v Speaker 2>out and shot at it. I'm sure he just shot

495
00:30:08.519 --> 00:30:12.119
<v Speaker 2>over it, said to try to intimidate me. We went

496
00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:15.559
<v Speaker 2>in there inside, and he would say, you should just

497
00:30:15.640 --> 00:30:19.039
<v Speaker 2>give up and move on with your life. Just get

498
00:30:19.079 --> 00:30:21.799
<v Speaker 2>this behind you and move off. Then he started telling

499
00:30:21.839 --> 00:30:24.759
<v Speaker 2>me how they did the whole investigation. And he was drinking,

500
00:30:24.839 --> 00:30:27.880
<v Speaker 2>and I was ordering drinks and ordering him drinks, and

501
00:30:27.920 --> 00:30:30.200
<v Speaker 2>it's going on and on and on, and I am

502
00:30:30.359 --> 00:30:33.079
<v Speaker 2>just getting all the information I ever want to get

503
00:30:33.079 --> 00:30:36.960
<v Speaker 2>out of this guy. He's the case agent. So we

504
00:30:37.079 --> 00:30:41.200
<v Speaker 2>get to the end and I said to him, I

505
00:30:41.319 --> 00:30:43.440
<v Speaker 2>was done. Ready to guy, He said, my attorney told

506
00:30:43.519 --> 00:30:47.640
<v Speaker 2>me the FBI gets eighty five percent of their information

507
00:30:47.720 --> 00:30:52.720
<v Speaker 2>off innocent conversations like this. You guys are trained. And

508
00:30:52.759 --> 00:30:56.440
<v Speaker 2>he looked at me and said, who trained you. I said, look,

509
00:30:56.480 --> 00:30:59.160
<v Speaker 2>this conversation's over. You're trying to make me feel good

510
00:30:59.160 --> 00:31:02.559
<v Speaker 2>about myself. I'm out of here. And he looked at

511
00:31:02.559 --> 00:31:05.000
<v Speaker 2>me and he said, if you ever say this conversation

512
00:31:05.200 --> 00:31:07.920
<v Speaker 2>took place, I'll be on a witness sand and call

513
00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:11.799
<v Speaker 2>you a fucking liar. And who are they gonna believe

514
00:31:11.880 --> 00:31:15.400
<v Speaker 2>a bookie or an FBI agent well, one of my

515
00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:17.400
<v Speaker 2>friends was to the right of him. I looked at

516
00:31:17.440 --> 00:31:19.480
<v Speaker 2>him and made sure he heard that. And then this

517
00:31:19.599 --> 00:31:22.039
<v Speaker 2>acquaintance was to the left. I looked at him. He

518
00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:24.519
<v Speaker 2>kind of nodded that he heard it. I got up

519
00:31:24.559 --> 00:31:28.079
<v Speaker 2>to the left. So my lawyer always gets his office

520
00:31:28.119 --> 00:31:30.319
<v Speaker 2>like nine o'clock and I never would call until nine

521
00:31:30.319 --> 00:31:33.480
<v Speaker 2>p thirty. He gets things in wrange. I said, FBI

522
00:31:33.559 --> 00:31:36.920
<v Speaker 2>approached me last night. He goes, no, he didn't. I said, yes,

523
00:31:37.000 --> 00:31:41.279
<v Speaker 2>he did. And here's what happened. So he calls the

524
00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:45.119
<v Speaker 2>agent's boss up in Columbus, Ohio, and he said, your

525
00:31:45.160 --> 00:31:48.519
<v Speaker 2>agent approached my guy. He said, no, he didn't. He said,

526
00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:51.240
<v Speaker 2>you better check with your agent. Then he gets a

527
00:31:51.279 --> 00:31:55.359
<v Speaker 2>call from that guy's boss in Cincinnati and he goes,

528
00:31:55.680 --> 00:31:58.680
<v Speaker 2>what do I hear about this agent approaching your client?

529
00:31:58.880 --> 00:32:01.480
<v Speaker 2>And he told him and then their case just went

530
00:32:01.519 --> 00:32:04.319
<v Speaker 2>all away. They gave me all my stuff back after

531
00:32:04.359 --> 00:32:08.039
<v Speaker 2>seven years, brought my car back. They had they had

532
00:32:08.079 --> 00:32:11.799
<v Speaker 2>seized my house, took the siegure off my house. So

533
00:32:12.559 --> 00:32:15.680
<v Speaker 2>I was one to know there. And yeah, I still

534
00:32:15.720 --> 00:32:18.319
<v Speaker 2>was living in the house because they were trying to

535
00:32:18.319 --> 00:32:22.279
<v Speaker 2>go through forfeiture proceedings and they needed me to be

536
00:32:22.359 --> 00:32:28.200
<v Speaker 2>guilty to do that. So they returned everything. And by

537
00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:31.960
<v Speaker 2>that time I was I was an Antigua and everything

538
00:32:32.119 --> 00:32:36.559
<v Speaker 2>was going good. Our program was up and running. Uh

539
00:32:37.079 --> 00:32:39.839
<v Speaker 2>you know, there's all kinds of books opening up everywhere.

540
00:32:39.880 --> 00:32:43.400
<v Speaker 2>This is ninety nine or whatever. You know. The two

541
00:32:43.400 --> 00:32:48.920
<v Speaker 2>thousand we put credit cards on on online where you

542
00:32:48.960 --> 00:32:52.480
<v Speaker 2>could use your credit card before I remember, we were

543
00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:54.960
<v Speaker 2>running them. You have to get you give us your

544
00:32:55.000 --> 00:32:58.000
<v Speaker 2>credit card number. We would run it by hand, and

545
00:32:58.079 --> 00:33:01.200
<v Speaker 2>one year we did a half a million dollar in

546
00:33:01.279 --> 00:33:03.880
<v Speaker 2>credit card running by hand. The first month we put

547
00:33:03.920 --> 00:33:06.440
<v Speaker 2>our credit cards online, we did a half a million

548
00:33:06.519 --> 00:33:11.759
<v Speaker 2>dollars on that. Wow. So the automated system, it was

549
00:33:11.839 --> 00:33:15.920
<v Speaker 2>really great. Then we put a casino link on there,

550
00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:19.440
<v Speaker 2>so we had a people could transfer money play casinos.

551
00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:22.839
<v Speaker 2>It was just the wild wild West, I'll tell you.

552
00:33:23.079 --> 00:33:26.880
<v Speaker 1>Oh I remember, Yeah, I was there on the player's side.

553
00:33:26.920 --> 00:33:30.920
<v Speaker 1>And initially you had to deal with Western Union trying

554
00:33:30.920 --> 00:33:36.400
<v Speaker 1>to send money that way. But then eventually PayPal came in, and.

555
00:33:37.839 --> 00:33:42.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we had money Gram and money Gram we had

556
00:33:42.079 --> 00:33:45.480
<v Speaker 2>it for a while till someone got jealous and found

557
00:33:45.480 --> 00:33:48.319
<v Speaker 2>out about it and called money Gram and we got

558
00:33:48.359 --> 00:33:50.440
<v Speaker 2>cut off. But the checks would just print up in

559
00:33:50.519 --> 00:33:52.839
<v Speaker 2>the office. I'd be sitting there in the printer would

560
00:33:52.839 --> 00:33:55.920
<v Speaker 2>ting that like ten fifteen checks would come off and

561
00:33:55.960 --> 00:33:57.440
<v Speaker 2>we would just put them in the bank. It was

562
00:33:57.480 --> 00:33:58.759
<v Speaker 2>the greatest thing you ever seen.

563
00:33:59.160 --> 00:33:59.440
<v Speaker 1>Wow.

564
00:34:00.079 --> 00:34:04.160
<v Speaker 2>So we were taken at that time because we took

565
00:34:04.319 --> 00:34:07.920
<v Speaker 2>daily numbers, squares and all these small bets. You know,

566
00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:11.440
<v Speaker 2>we were probably it was like a big cement mixer.

567
00:34:11.559 --> 00:34:15.119
<v Speaker 2>We were probably about a seventy five dollars average bet,

568
00:34:15.400 --> 00:34:19.079
<v Speaker 2>and we were taken between one hundred and fifty thousand

569
00:34:19.119 --> 00:34:22.440
<v Speaker 2>and two hundred thousand bets a week.

570
00:34:23.159 --> 00:34:27.559
<v Speaker 1>So so its two hundred thousand bets, not two hundred thousand.

571
00:34:27.320 --> 00:34:32.800
<v Speaker 2>Dollars, No, two hundred thousand bets, wow, about seventy five

572
00:34:33.079 --> 00:34:37.480
<v Speaker 2>an off season, you know, football and basketball, baseball season

573
00:34:37.639 --> 00:34:42.360
<v Speaker 2>was probably down to fifty two dollars average bet. But

574
00:34:42.960 --> 00:34:45.280
<v Speaker 2>it was we used to It used to cost us

575
00:34:45.280 --> 00:34:47.639
<v Speaker 2>a dollar ninety to take a bet on the phone.

576
00:34:48.239 --> 00:34:51.719
<v Speaker 2>It was costing us about three cents on the internet

577
00:34:51.760 --> 00:34:57.039
<v Speaker 2>per bet. Yeah, though it was. It was fantastic. Everything

578
00:34:57.199 --> 00:35:02.199
<v Speaker 2>was coming up, everything was running good. And then nine

579
00:35:02.199 --> 00:35:07.400
<v Speaker 2>to eleven happened. Nine to eleven happened, and then they

580
00:35:07.840 --> 00:35:14.280
<v Speaker 2>passed a terrorist bill, and they formed the RSCID and

581
00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:18.760
<v Speaker 2>giving them a bunch of money to investigate internet crimes.

582
00:35:18.800 --> 00:35:23.239
<v Speaker 2>And you know, I think Tommy Chong got he went

583
00:35:23.280 --> 00:35:25.679
<v Speaker 2>to jail for the bongs things. That was the same

584
00:35:27.039 --> 00:35:33.480
<v Speaker 2>Pittsburgh office that was investigating me. And on June third,

585
00:35:33.599 --> 00:35:38.320
<v Speaker 2>two thousand and three, that's when I got raided. I

586
00:35:39.159 --> 00:35:46.400
<v Speaker 2>was up in my office in Toronto. And because it's

587
00:35:46.800 --> 00:35:50.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, they can only raid a place like offshore

588
00:35:51.079 --> 00:35:55.239
<v Speaker 2>if it's illegal, illegal in both countries. But it was

589
00:35:55.360 --> 00:35:58.000
<v Speaker 2>legal in Antiga. And by this time we had an

590
00:35:58.039 --> 00:36:00.880
<v Speaker 2>office in Belize too, so it was there. So all

591
00:36:00.920 --> 00:36:05.800
<v Speaker 2>they could do is get me. So they come flying

592
00:36:05.880 --> 00:36:08.320
<v Speaker 2>in and get me. And I was paying my taxes again,

593
00:36:08.440 --> 00:36:11.960
<v Speaker 2>even though the only thing they left in my office

594
00:36:12.159 --> 00:36:15.760
<v Speaker 2>was my quarterly payments. I was paying about one hundred

595
00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:18.840
<v Speaker 2>and twenty five thousand or two hundred and fifty thousand

596
00:36:18.920 --> 00:36:22.280
<v Speaker 2>a quarter in taxes, so that's the only thing they

597
00:36:22.360 --> 00:36:26.159
<v Speaker 2>left in my office. So they get everything. I go

598
00:36:26.280 --> 00:36:30.599
<v Speaker 2>home and I tell my wife, well, they raided my

599
00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:33.400
<v Speaker 2>house too. At the same time, she knew exactly what

600
00:36:33.559 --> 00:36:39.480
<v Speaker 2>to do. We never talked about it. After we got

601
00:36:39.519 --> 00:36:43.800
<v Speaker 2>like forty phone calls in the morning over the weekend

602
00:36:43.880 --> 00:36:46.320
<v Speaker 2>that were hang ups, and we were out of town.

603
00:36:47.159 --> 00:36:50.480
<v Speaker 2>Eight o'clock in the morning, my phone rangs and I

604
00:36:50.599 --> 00:36:54.000
<v Speaker 2>pick it up and they hang up. I just looked

605
00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:57.440
<v Speaker 2>at my wife and she looked at me, and I said,

606
00:36:57.440 --> 00:36:59.639
<v Speaker 2>I have to go to my office to pick up

607
00:36:59.679 --> 00:37:03.599
<v Speaker 2>my phone. And I was taking my kids to school,

608
00:37:03.679 --> 00:37:07.599
<v Speaker 2>so i'd go over. And as I drive into my

609
00:37:07.679 --> 00:37:11.440
<v Speaker 2>office is about two hundred and fifty yards away, car

610
00:37:11.480 --> 00:37:14.639
<v Speaker 2>comes flying around me, blocks me off. Everybody's jumping on

611
00:37:14.760 --> 00:37:19.719
<v Speaker 2>the cars. They're screaming, putting their hats on. I opened

612
00:37:19.719 --> 00:37:21.840
<v Speaker 2>the door of my truck and he's trying to rip

613
00:37:21.920 --> 00:37:24.559
<v Speaker 2>my door off and he's yelling, where's the guns? Where's

614
00:37:24.599 --> 00:37:28.280
<v Speaker 2>the guns? I said, you got them? I said, I

615
00:37:28.400 --> 00:37:35.239
<v Speaker 2>use pencils. So he shows me the warrant. Obviously they

616
00:37:35.239 --> 00:37:37.679
<v Speaker 2>were in my office before because he was asking me

617
00:37:37.719 --> 00:37:40.119
<v Speaker 2>the culmination is safe, and no one even knew was

618
00:37:40.119 --> 00:37:44.000
<v Speaker 2>in there. And I go over to the phone. I

619
00:37:44.039 --> 00:37:48.719
<v Speaker 2>call my lawyer's office and the secretary says, is this John.

620
00:37:48.880 --> 00:37:51.679
<v Speaker 2>I go, yeah, she goes, your wife just called we're

621
00:37:51.719 --> 00:37:57.159
<v Speaker 2>sending somebody up. So that was pretty good. So I

622
00:37:57.239 --> 00:38:00.400
<v Speaker 2>go home and I told her I I said they

623
00:38:00.440 --> 00:38:02.760
<v Speaker 2>got it all. My wife be cause what do you mean.

624
00:38:02.840 --> 00:38:05.719
<v Speaker 2>I said, they got it all today? She says, I

625
00:38:05.719 --> 00:38:07.519
<v Speaker 2>don't know what you're talking about. I said, we had

626
00:38:07.599 --> 00:38:10.360
<v Speaker 2>seven and a half million dollars this morning. Now I

627
00:38:10.400 --> 00:38:13.719
<v Speaker 2>think they got it all. She goes, I'm driving a

628
00:38:13.800 --> 00:38:16.159
<v Speaker 2>car with no air conditioning and we got seven and

629
00:38:16.199 --> 00:38:21.639
<v Speaker 2>a half million dollars. I said, yeah, saving for a

630
00:38:21.719 --> 00:38:27.400
<v Speaker 2>rainy days pouring right now. So I go up to

631
00:38:27.400 --> 00:38:29.400
<v Speaker 2>the bank. I got a bank account. I'm in the

632
00:38:29.440 --> 00:38:32.920
<v Speaker 2>bank account. They they got this package. It was my

633
00:38:33.079 --> 00:38:36.599
<v Speaker 2>drop dead package, so if I die, my wife would

634
00:38:36.639 --> 00:38:39.679
<v Speaker 2>know where everything was. But they had heard me tell

635
00:38:39.719 --> 00:38:42.480
<v Speaker 2>my dad where it was because they had my office

636
00:38:42.519 --> 00:38:45.920
<v Speaker 2>miked up. So they get that, and I got three

637
00:38:45.960 --> 00:38:49.360
<v Speaker 2>depositive boxes, and they're trying to figure out the round

638
00:38:49.440 --> 00:38:53.880
<v Speaker 2>robin and what belongs to watch right what bank? So

639
00:38:53.960 --> 00:38:56.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm up in the bank trying to withdraw money and

640
00:38:56.039 --> 00:38:59.159
<v Speaker 2>they won't only give me seven thousand cash. And I

641
00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:02.280
<v Speaker 2>was building a house at the time, so I ended

642
00:39:02.320 --> 00:39:05.800
<v Speaker 2>up getting one hundred and fifty out for my lawyer,

643
00:39:06.760 --> 00:39:09.559
<v Speaker 2>two hundred and fifty thousand for the house. And I

644
00:39:09.639 --> 00:39:12.920
<v Speaker 2>look over, they're in the safe. They're drilling my deposit box.

645
00:39:13.159 --> 00:39:17.360
<v Speaker 2>Oh jeez. So in the deposit box, the three they

646
00:39:17.400 --> 00:39:20.239
<v Speaker 2>finally got them all. I had like a million and

647
00:39:20.320 --> 00:39:23.639
<v Speaker 2>a half in cash and three hundred and sixty gold coins,

648
00:39:23.719 --> 00:39:28.679
<v Speaker 2>and I had one silver bar that was in my office.

649
00:39:28.920 --> 00:39:31.599
<v Speaker 2>They in my warehouse, they called it, and they made

650
00:39:31.599 --> 00:39:35.360
<v Speaker 2>the biggest deal about that. I had a one hundred

651
00:39:35.400 --> 00:39:39.679
<v Speaker 2>ounce bullion in there. Silver bars in his warehouse. You

652
00:39:39.719 --> 00:39:45.440
<v Speaker 2>know it was it was one bar. So the next day, ironically,

653
00:39:45.519 --> 00:39:48.079
<v Speaker 2>I come back to my office and I looked at

654
00:39:48.119 --> 00:39:50.960
<v Speaker 2>the door. Someone tried to break in. Now this is

655
00:39:51.079 --> 00:39:55.400
<v Speaker 2>after the raid. I said, these criminals are pretty I'm

656
00:39:55.440 --> 00:39:57.599
<v Speaker 2>trying to break in my office after ray, What did

657
00:39:57.599 --> 00:40:01.480
<v Speaker 2>they think that cops left something there? So here's the

658
00:40:01.519 --> 00:40:05.280
<v Speaker 2>whole process again. We're going through the whole process. And

659
00:40:06.440 --> 00:40:11.760
<v Speaker 2>we find out later because of Antigua filed a wto

660
00:40:12.880 --> 00:40:17.119
<v Speaker 2>grievance against the United States because they were hampering their

661
00:40:17.159 --> 00:40:21.519
<v Speaker 2>banking system and stuff because Antiga was growing with all

662
00:40:21.519 --> 00:40:25.440
<v Speaker 2>these sports books. Right, So Antigua fouled a grievance again

663
00:40:25.480 --> 00:40:29.559
<v Speaker 2>the United States that hey, we're doing this. You know

664
00:40:30.159 --> 00:40:33.039
<v Speaker 2>you told us, you showed us how to set this up.

665
00:40:33.199 --> 00:40:35.639
<v Speaker 2>You send representatives down there how to set this up.

666
00:40:35.719 --> 00:40:39.360
<v Speaker 2>You even give us some Indian regulations on how they

667
00:40:39.400 --> 00:40:42.840
<v Speaker 2>were handling gambling, and now you want to stop us

668
00:40:43.519 --> 00:40:46.440
<v Speaker 2>because they really didn't understand how big the Internet was

669
00:40:46.519 --> 00:40:50.480
<v Speaker 2>going to get when they did disagreement in ninety two. Right, yeah,

670
00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:54.840
<v Speaker 2>they said, oh fuck, you know this internet could be big.

671
00:40:55.880 --> 00:41:03.519
<v Speaker 2>So to retally, they start hunting down the operators in

672
00:41:03.840 --> 00:41:07.440
<v Speaker 2>u Antigue. And that's when I think J Cohen got

673
00:41:07.519 --> 00:41:15.159
<v Speaker 2>in the mix w sex and they were J Cohen

674
00:41:15.280 --> 00:41:18.360
<v Speaker 2>did something different than me. He transmitted a bet. He

675
00:41:18.559 --> 00:41:20.840
<v Speaker 2>was on the phone and took a bet from an agent. Right.

676
00:41:21.880 --> 00:41:24.760
<v Speaker 2>I never transmitted any bet. They tried to get me

677
00:41:24.840 --> 00:41:29.400
<v Speaker 2>on the phone, you know, before every everybody was changing

678
00:41:29.519 --> 00:41:34.960
<v Speaker 2>their names. That's when I changed mind to I talked

679
00:41:34.960 --> 00:41:37.599
<v Speaker 2>to this guy one time. He sent down two hundred

680
00:41:37.599 --> 00:41:41.880
<v Speaker 2>and fifty dollars and he bet twenty five dollars bets. Now,

681
00:41:42.719 --> 00:41:44.679
<v Speaker 2>when somebody in office said he wants to talk to

682
00:41:44.800 --> 00:41:47.320
<v Speaker 2>the boss, he wants to send fifty thousand downs. So

683
00:41:47.400 --> 00:41:50.559
<v Speaker 2>I know it's an agent, right. So he gets back

684
00:41:50.639 --> 00:41:52.599
<v Speaker 2>and he wants to know my name and everything, and

685
00:41:52.679 --> 00:41:57.559
<v Speaker 2>I tell my name's William. So a couple of days later,

686
00:41:57.719 --> 00:41:59.920
<v Speaker 2>the phone rings and they I think it's somebody from

687
00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:02.199
<v Speaker 2>my hometown. I pick up the phone. This is this

688
00:42:02.360 --> 00:42:04.480
<v Speaker 2>is John. The guy goes, I thought your name was William.

689
00:42:04.559 --> 00:42:07.480
<v Speaker 2>I said, John's my middle name, William Jay. Then I

690
00:42:07.599 --> 00:42:11.559
<v Speaker 2>throwed out Caesar because in Las Vegas there was a

691
00:42:11.599 --> 00:42:13.960
<v Speaker 2>guy called Montana Mel. We used to hang out a

692
00:42:14.079 --> 00:42:17.360
<v Speaker 2>team may Day's place up there, Little Caesars, and he

693
00:42:17.559 --> 00:42:22.400
<v Speaker 2>used to call me big sees there. Montana Mel was

694
00:42:22.440 --> 00:42:25.920
<v Speaker 2>a legend out there. So I go, that's how William J.

695
00:42:26.159 --> 00:42:30.039
<v Speaker 2>Caesar was created. So I went with that the rest

696
00:42:30.119 --> 00:42:36.639
<v Speaker 2>of the time. But they they tried everything, and their

697
00:42:36.800 --> 00:42:42.760
<v Speaker 2>last thing that they tried on us was my guy

698
00:42:42.920 --> 00:42:43.679
<v Speaker 2>was in Belize.

699
00:42:43.760 --> 00:42:44.679
<v Speaker 1>He goes to the.

700
00:42:44.920 --> 00:42:48.920
<v Speaker 2>FedEx place down there and they asked him what's in

701
00:42:49.039 --> 00:42:53.440
<v Speaker 2>this package because you have to put on your set

702
00:42:53.480 --> 00:42:55.760
<v Speaker 2>it out package is like if it was a check

703
00:42:55.840 --> 00:43:00.320
<v Speaker 2>we put documents or whatever. And it wasn't uh, nothing

704
00:43:00.400 --> 00:43:02.440
<v Speaker 2>was rude on it. He said, I didn't bring that

705
00:43:02.679 --> 00:43:06.599
<v Speaker 2>down there. They said, well, it comes from mailbox, etc.

706
00:43:07.719 --> 00:43:10.360
<v Speaker 2>And it was a big package. And he called me

707
00:43:10.480 --> 00:43:12.360
<v Speaker 2>up and he said there's a package of fed X.

708
00:43:12.440 --> 00:43:16.440
<v Speaker 2>I said, get our attorney. Have the police. There have

709
00:43:16.599 --> 00:43:20.679
<v Speaker 2>the FedEx investigators get him there, and I watched a

710
00:43:20.800 --> 00:43:24.800
<v Speaker 2>videotape opening this box up. So they go all down

711
00:43:24.880 --> 00:43:27.800
<v Speaker 2>there and they videotape opened up the box in between

712
00:43:27.920 --> 00:43:33.920
<v Speaker 2>two card drives. There's a kilo of cocaine. Wow, it

713
00:43:34.119 --> 00:43:36.800
<v Speaker 2>was going to a laundry matt in New York City.

714
00:43:37.559 --> 00:43:41.039
<v Speaker 2>So they go, we have the tapes from mailbox, et cetera.

715
00:43:41.559 --> 00:43:44.199
<v Speaker 2>We know what the guy looks like. We know that

716
00:43:44.280 --> 00:43:47.679
<v Speaker 2>he got to go onto a plane the Miami and

717
00:43:47.880 --> 00:43:52.639
<v Speaker 2>we're gonna have him picked up there. Good good. No

718
00:43:52.800 --> 00:43:56.559
<v Speaker 2>more information was ever given to us. That went dead.

719
00:43:56.639 --> 00:43:58.880
<v Speaker 2>It was like a dead end. No one said anything.

720
00:43:59.079 --> 00:44:03.840
<v Speaker 2>So if that package makes it to the airport and

721
00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:07.559
<v Speaker 2>a dog smell it, or because there's it's not determined

722
00:44:07.599 --> 00:44:10.400
<v Speaker 2>what's in the box, and they open it up, then

723
00:44:10.480 --> 00:44:12.679
<v Speaker 2>they would have the right to come and dismantle our

724
00:44:12.760 --> 00:44:16.119
<v Speaker 2>office down there, close our servers down, take everything down,

725
00:44:16.239 --> 00:44:20.840
<v Speaker 2>because obviously selling drugs in both countries is illegal, right,

726
00:44:21.920 --> 00:44:25.800
<v Speaker 2>So they played that dirty trick on us. They did

727
00:44:25.880 --> 00:44:30.719
<v Speaker 2>some other tricks. They used the Patriot Act to freeze

728
00:44:31.800 --> 00:44:38.360
<v Speaker 2>the corresponding banks money in Belize in New Orleans and

729
00:44:38.639 --> 00:44:42.199
<v Speaker 2>the government of Belize had to let them know it

730
00:44:42.360 --> 00:44:45.719
<v Speaker 2>was okay to take our money. They would give them

731
00:44:45.920 --> 00:44:49.840
<v Speaker 2>our money, cribs money, if they would let the rest

732
00:44:49.880 --> 00:44:52.760
<v Speaker 2>of the US dollars flow through, because that would shut

733
00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:58.440
<v Speaker 2>Belize's economy down, you know. Sure, So that's what they did.

734
00:44:59.480 --> 00:45:01.480
<v Speaker 2>We went the court down there. We won the fight

735
00:45:01.599 --> 00:45:06.920
<v Speaker 2>in the court down there, but the US used the

736
00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:12.679
<v Speaker 2>Terrorist Act on us. We were domestic terrorists to seize

737
00:45:12.719 --> 00:45:16.440
<v Speaker 2>our money in New Orleans. Now the word gets out

738
00:45:16.480 --> 00:45:20.400
<v Speaker 2>on the internet fast, and so everybody starts taking withdraws.

739
00:45:21.159 --> 00:45:23.360
<v Speaker 2>This is where our you know, or where we had

740
00:45:23.400 --> 00:45:27.800
<v Speaker 2>two million over our deposit money. So obviously we had

741
00:45:27.840 --> 00:45:30.159
<v Speaker 2>plenty of money to pay anybody that wanted to withdraw.

742
00:45:30.880 --> 00:45:32.679
<v Speaker 2>And they would ask me about I'd get on the

743
00:45:32.760 --> 00:45:34.920
<v Speaker 2>phone and I said, listen, if you this is just

744
00:45:35.039 --> 00:45:37.079
<v Speaker 2>going to keep you up at night, take your money

745
00:45:37.159 --> 00:45:40.679
<v Speaker 2>out and when you think, you know, you get your money,

746
00:45:40.960 --> 00:45:44.639
<v Speaker 2>you could send it back here and and we'll move on.

747
00:45:45.239 --> 00:45:48.360
<v Speaker 2>But they that's what a lot of people did. Some

748
00:45:48.519 --> 00:45:51.800
<v Speaker 2>people left their money there who could have never had

749
00:45:51.840 --> 00:45:58.159
<v Speaker 2>a problem paying. Wow, it worked out good, and we

750
00:45:58.400 --> 00:46:01.760
<v Speaker 2>give our the players. You know, it's a reason to

751
00:46:01.840 --> 00:46:04.320
<v Speaker 2>come back to the site. Every day, you know, like

752
00:46:04.519 --> 00:46:09.400
<v Speaker 2>on you know, Tuesday, you could lay a dollar two

753
00:46:09.800 --> 00:46:13.840
<v Speaker 2>on the NFL up to five hundred dollars. On Wednesday,

754
00:46:13.960 --> 00:46:16.400
<v Speaker 2>we would pick ten or fifteen people and give them

755
00:46:16.400 --> 00:46:17.719
<v Speaker 2>two hundred and fifty dollars.

756
00:46:18.519 --> 00:46:18.679
<v Speaker 1>You know.

757
00:46:19.320 --> 00:46:23.079
<v Speaker 2>On Friday, you could lay a dollar five from midnight

758
00:46:23.199 --> 00:46:26.440
<v Speaker 2>to you know, eight o'clock in the morning on college football.

759
00:46:26.599 --> 00:46:30.639
<v Speaker 2>So people come back to the site. Our rettention rate

760
00:46:30.719 --> 00:46:35.280
<v Speaker 2>on customers down there was unbelievable. We had some that

761
00:46:36.280 --> 00:46:40.440
<v Speaker 2>day one. Customers were still there when I left. So

762
00:46:41.239 --> 00:46:43.480
<v Speaker 2>I'm fighting the case, trying to get my money back.

763
00:46:43.519 --> 00:46:49.920
<v Speaker 2>Here comes October thirteenth, two thousand and six. And prior

764
00:46:50.039 --> 00:46:52.960
<v Speaker 2>to this, there was a company in England, Sporting bet,

765
00:46:53.800 --> 00:46:57.639
<v Speaker 2>that were going to make us an offer, and it

766
00:46:57.800 --> 00:47:02.159
<v Speaker 2>was probably for about fifty million dollars. Wow. And so

767
00:47:02.360 --> 00:47:09.960
<v Speaker 2>here comes October thirteenth, two thousand and six, and they

768
00:47:10.039 --> 00:47:16.199
<v Speaker 2>had stuffed They failed to pass against this. They failed

769
00:47:16.239 --> 00:47:20.559
<v Speaker 2>to pass an HR bill nine times on its own.

770
00:47:21.199 --> 00:47:25.039
<v Speaker 2>They stopped this in this port security bill, and at

771
00:47:25.039 --> 00:47:27.880
<v Speaker 2>eleven o'clock on the night I was watching c SPAN

772
00:47:28.760 --> 00:47:32.920
<v Speaker 2>and they passed. It was on a twenty fifth hundred

773
00:47:33.000 --> 00:47:37.360
<v Speaker 2>page of this document, which no one ever read that

774
00:47:37.599 --> 00:47:40.599
<v Speaker 2>made it, you know, aiding in a betting, traveling, using

775
00:47:40.719 --> 00:47:44.639
<v Speaker 2>a banking system everything. That's what finished it for me

776
00:47:45.800 --> 00:47:49.360
<v Speaker 2>if I wanted to if I continue, my attorney said

777
00:47:49.400 --> 00:47:54.000
<v Speaker 2>that they would probably charge me with ongoing criminal enterprise.

778
00:47:54.480 --> 00:47:57.559
<v Speaker 2>I'd have no chance to get my money back. So

779
00:47:58.920 --> 00:48:02.280
<v Speaker 2>I end up quitting and I turned it over to

780
00:48:02.400 --> 00:48:06.639
<v Speaker 2>the employees I didn't want. There was employees in Antigua

781
00:48:06.760 --> 00:48:10.199
<v Speaker 2>and Belize, and we even had an office, a legitimate

782
00:48:10.559 --> 00:48:14.760
<v Speaker 2>office in London, so we just turned it over to them.

783
00:48:15.480 --> 00:48:20.079
<v Speaker 2>I didn't want to all lose their jobs. And you know,

784
00:48:20.239 --> 00:48:24.679
<v Speaker 2>we left them with the deposit money and you know,

785
00:48:25.599 --> 00:48:29.920
<v Speaker 2>with no one holding the steering wheel. A couple of years,

786
00:48:30.239 --> 00:48:32.119
<v Speaker 2>they made in like three more years and that was

787
00:48:32.159 --> 00:48:35.559
<v Speaker 2>the end of it. All the money was gone. I

788
00:48:35.639 --> 00:48:38.679
<v Speaker 2>think they must they probably stuffed a couple of customers.

789
00:48:38.840 --> 00:48:43.440
<v Speaker 2>But I was out in October thirteenth, two thousand and six. Yeah,

790
00:48:44.360 --> 00:48:46.519
<v Speaker 2>and it was perfect for me because my kids were

791
00:48:46.599 --> 00:48:50.039
<v Speaker 2>nine years old. You know, I could come home spend

792
00:48:50.119 --> 00:48:52.559
<v Speaker 2>all the time with them. I wanted, you know, I

793
00:48:52.719 --> 00:48:56.239
<v Speaker 2>just had to get my get through this case. And

794
00:48:56.400 --> 00:49:00.280
<v Speaker 2>it was the same thing their first offer was had

795
00:49:00.400 --> 00:49:03.199
<v Speaker 2>to take all my money and give me twenty five years.

796
00:49:03.320 --> 00:49:07.320
<v Speaker 2>They said, I laundered dollars. I go, who wants to

797
00:49:07.440 --> 00:49:14.039
<v Speaker 2>feed me for twenty five years? So then they come

798
00:49:14.159 --> 00:49:16.679
<v Speaker 2>up they're going fifty percent of the money. And we

799
00:49:16.840 --> 00:49:21.440
<v Speaker 2>told him, I said, Johnny fift away from settling this case.

800
00:49:22.400 --> 00:49:26.920
<v Speaker 2>Then they try to pull that Bruce Cuttler thing, like

801
00:49:27.039 --> 00:49:29.519
<v Speaker 2>did John god to get my lawyer off the case.

802
00:49:30.400 --> 00:49:32.360
<v Speaker 2>And they told him that he was gonna charge him

803
00:49:32.480 --> 00:49:35.000
<v Speaker 2>for you know, I try to set up a trust

804
00:49:35.079 --> 00:49:37.920
<v Speaker 2>one time and I transferred the money through him. They

805
00:49:37.960 --> 00:49:41.440
<v Speaker 2>said he laundered the money and he wouldn't back off.

806
00:49:41.639 --> 00:49:45.280
<v Speaker 2>He was great. But the thing that I knew from

807
00:49:45.360 --> 00:49:49.039
<v Speaker 2>the beginning, when you're fighting with the US government, you

808
00:49:49.480 --> 00:49:53.119
<v Speaker 2>hire a courtroom atturn. If you hire a guy that's

809
00:49:53.280 --> 00:49:57.599
<v Speaker 2>known for making deals, they don't take it serious. They

810
00:49:57.679 --> 00:49:59.960
<v Speaker 2>know that they don't have to work. They're gonna make

811
00:50:00.079 --> 00:50:03.360
<v Speaker 2>good deal. And he went all away. We had some

812
00:50:03.519 --> 00:50:07.480
<v Speaker 2>tough days, went all the way to two thousand and twelve.

813
00:50:08.519 --> 00:50:13.519
<v Speaker 2>August twelve, twenty twelve, they said, by this time there

814
00:50:13.639 --> 00:50:16.199
<v Speaker 2>was eight million dollars there and the interest rate. You know,

815
00:50:16.320 --> 00:50:18.360
<v Speaker 2>you went through the two thousand and eight period where

816
00:50:19.119 --> 00:50:21.760
<v Speaker 2>the banks could have been charging you for keeping their money,

817
00:50:22.320 --> 00:50:24.679
<v Speaker 2>and some of the money was froze. The cash they

818
00:50:24.800 --> 00:50:30.119
<v Speaker 2>had it had growed to eight million dollars. So they said,

819
00:50:30.159 --> 00:50:34.119
<v Speaker 2>we'll give you seven point five million dollars back, and

820
00:50:35.119 --> 00:50:37.119
<v Speaker 2>the money that you have in England you could bring

821
00:50:37.199 --> 00:50:44.400
<v Speaker 2>it back here with no taxable implicate implications. And they

822
00:50:44.559 --> 00:50:47.599
<v Speaker 2>just wanted to show that they got five hundred thousand

823
00:50:47.679 --> 00:50:50.840
<v Speaker 2>from me, and they won, right like they won won

824
00:50:50.960 --> 00:50:54.840
<v Speaker 2>the case because they they were dead. The treaty said

825
00:50:55.840 --> 00:51:01.320
<v Speaker 2>in that treaty that these companies could run these businesses,

826
00:51:02.000 --> 00:51:07.400
<v Speaker 2>but they were using the term saying, well, we're not

827
00:51:07.599 --> 00:51:11.679
<v Speaker 2>after the company, we're after an individual, so we could

828
00:51:11.719 --> 00:51:13.159
<v Speaker 2>go after this individual.

829
00:51:13.920 --> 00:51:14.079
<v Speaker 1>You know.

830
00:51:14.880 --> 00:51:17.719
<v Speaker 2>They were trying to go outside the spirit of the agreement,

831
00:51:17.880 --> 00:51:20.880
<v Speaker 2>you know. So they didn't even want that to get

832
00:51:20.960 --> 00:51:25.159
<v Speaker 2>out about the treaty because all the rest of their

833
00:51:25.280 --> 00:51:29.199
<v Speaker 2>cases would fall apart against everybody else if anybody wanted

834
00:51:29.199 --> 00:51:32.719
<v Speaker 2>to go the whole nine yards, right, and so we

835
00:51:33.480 --> 00:51:36.360
<v Speaker 2>went the whole way. We beat them. We give them

836
00:51:36.440 --> 00:51:39.119
<v Speaker 2>the half a million dollars. My lawyer said, listen, we

837
00:51:39.159 --> 00:51:41.000
<v Speaker 2>could fight for two more years and get it all,

838
00:51:42.079 --> 00:51:44.679
<v Speaker 2>or get this behind us and then when they wrote

839
00:51:44.760 --> 00:51:47.480
<v Speaker 2>up the agreement, they wrote it up as a deal

840
00:51:48.199 --> 00:51:52.679
<v Speaker 2>instead of a fourth fiture forfeiture. So it took it

841
00:51:52.760 --> 00:51:55.559
<v Speaker 2>to my tax attorney gave me something that's called supper

842
00:51:55.679 --> 00:52:01.480
<v Speaker 2>monthal authority, where his advice was, you could write this

843
00:52:01.719 --> 00:52:04.079
<v Speaker 2>off because this is a business expense and if you

844
00:52:04.159 --> 00:52:06.800
<v Speaker 2>were never in this business, you wouldn't have this expense.

845
00:52:07.639 --> 00:52:11.320
<v Speaker 2>And the supplemental authority says, if they come back and

846
00:52:11.400 --> 00:52:16.960
<v Speaker 2>they they they say they don't allow this deduction, then

847
00:52:17.000 --> 00:52:20.559
<v Speaker 2>they can only charge you interest, no penalty for not

848
00:52:20.719 --> 00:52:25.800
<v Speaker 2>paying so and the thing. So it worked out. I went,

849
00:52:25.960 --> 00:52:29.039
<v Speaker 2>I cleared that statue of limitations and it worked out good.

850
00:52:29.199 --> 00:52:32.440
<v Speaker 2>I wrote off all my attorney's fees. I wrote off

851
00:52:32.480 --> 00:52:36.119
<v Speaker 2>to half a million dollars here and I'm living happily

852
00:52:36.239 --> 00:52:36.719
<v Speaker 2>ever after.

853
00:52:37.239 --> 00:52:39.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, got to spend time with your kids. Had a

854
00:52:39.920 --> 00:52:41.880
<v Speaker 1>hell of a ride all those years.

855
00:52:42.760 --> 00:52:45.559
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, I had a nice ride. And you know,

856
00:52:45.679 --> 00:52:52.599
<v Speaker 2>my son went to his graduate at Columbia and as

857
00:52:52.679 --> 00:52:55.199
<v Speaker 2>a creative writing and he wrote a book about Brazil

858
00:52:55.320 --> 00:52:58.559
<v Speaker 2>because they were They grew up half the time in Brazil.

859
00:52:58.679 --> 00:53:03.280
<v Speaker 2>My wife's Brazilian. We live in Copa Cabana, three or

860
00:53:03.320 --> 00:53:07.239
<v Speaker 2>four months a year and he wrote a book about Brazil.

861
00:53:07.320 --> 00:53:12.000
<v Speaker 2>And his next book he wrote was it's called Humpty Dumpty,

862
00:53:12.440 --> 00:53:16.480
<v Speaker 2>and it's about the local book maker. There's a part

863
00:53:16.559 --> 00:53:19.320
<v Speaker 2>in there it's about our town and the local bookmaker.

864
00:53:19.400 --> 00:53:22.280
<v Speaker 2>But his name spelled different. J O h N R

865
00:53:22.280 --> 00:53:25.719
<v Speaker 2>O d g E r S. You know that's not you, dad.

866
00:53:26.079 --> 00:53:29.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, the book's not out.

867
00:53:29.480 --> 00:53:32.880
<v Speaker 2>The book's not out, but I'll bet it is out

868
00:53:32.920 --> 00:53:35.199
<v Speaker 2>because the first book had a lot in it about

869
00:53:35.760 --> 00:53:41.039
<v Speaker 2>our lives in Brazil too, so yeah, it should be interesting.

870
00:53:41.360 --> 00:53:44.320
<v Speaker 1>So well, John, I want to thank you for doing this.

871
00:53:44.440 --> 00:53:49.400
<v Speaker 1>It's an amazing story. So I really appreciate you taking

872
00:53:49.440 --> 00:53:50.400
<v Speaker 1>the time with me today.

873
00:53:51.400 --> 00:53:53.599
<v Speaker 2>I hope I didn't go on too long, you know,

874
00:53:53.840 --> 00:53:57.519
<v Speaker 2>and I get to you know, this is the fire

875
00:53:57.599 --> 00:54:02.039
<v Speaker 2>in my belly about the government. I told my attorney

876
00:54:02.039 --> 00:54:04.239
<v Speaker 2>I was going to write a book one day. I

877
00:54:04.360 --> 00:54:07.679
<v Speaker 2>had to say, I'm same guy for forty years, right,

878
00:54:08.760 --> 00:54:10.599
<v Speaker 2>I was going to write a book one day and

879
00:54:10.880 --> 00:54:12.639
<v Speaker 2>how to live a life of crime and never be

880
00:54:12.840 --> 00:54:16.559
<v Speaker 2>charged with what. He come back and he said, you're

881
00:54:16.559 --> 00:54:18.679
<v Speaker 2>going to need a new attorney for that. Yeah.

882
00:54:20.760 --> 00:54:23.440
<v Speaker 1>Well that's it for this episode. And I want to

883
00:54:23.480 --> 00:54:28.440
<v Speaker 1>thank John Rogers again for his amazing story. As always,

884
00:54:28.599 --> 00:54:32.440
<v Speaker 1>you can reach me at Life is a Gamblepod at

885
00:54:32.559 --> 00:54:35.920
<v Speaker 1>gmail dot com, or you can find me on Twitter

886
00:54:36.159 --> 00:54:40.559
<v Speaker 1>at RWM twenty one. Until next time, everybody,