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Speaker 1: What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the

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Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to dive right

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back in to the Michael Thomas deposition with the OIG

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inspectors question. So we have a few follow up questions,

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and it's going to be by multiple different people. Unfortunately

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their names are adapted. Question with regard to when you

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conducted the indiscernible Thomas, no problem. Question Agent just mentioned

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it too. So you walked in. Is Epstein to your

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right or your left? Thomas my right? Question? Okay? And

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when you see him right, is he hanging? Thomas? Yeah? Question?

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And where was in comparison to this in comparison to

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this picture? Whereabout was his head Thomas? Maybe a little

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bit below the circle? Maybe right here, I guess I

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can't remember exactly, or maybe a little bit below that circle. Question?

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And this whole body on the floor. Was his button

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on the floor Thomas, no question? What part of his

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body was on the floor Thomas. I don't recall what

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was on the floor. I don't think anything was on

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the floor. I don't really remember. Question was his legs

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on the floor, feet on the floor? Thomas, Well, I'm

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going to say his feet was on the floor? Question?

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You would assume because it doesn't look up that high. Thomas, Yeah,

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because it doesn't have the yeah. Question, So you think

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his feet were on the floor Thomas, I really don't

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remember exactly, but I mean I would assume his feet

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was on the floor. Question. Now, see there's a knot

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on the noose right here? What part of the neck

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was that not on? Like when you see it, did

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you try to loosen it or tried to take it off?

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What part of the neck was that on? Do you

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recall at all? Thomas? I really don't. I really don't.

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Question when you pulled it, it looks like there's a

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portion left back on here? Was that attached to this Thomas?

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Like I said, he said, he was a portion of that.

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Like I said, when I remember ripping all that down,

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I don't know if I just if it slipped through

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or whatever may be the case. I just remember going

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like this and he going to the ground, and then

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we started doing chest compressions. Question and he came off easily? Thomas, Yes,

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he came off easily. It didn't come off too hard. Question.

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And you don't recall trying to gets cut off? Thomas?

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I don't recall taking the noose off. I really don't.

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I don't recall taking that thing off from around his neck.

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Question do you remember if the linen ripped so it's

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separated from this or if this is possibly the same

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thing as that. Do you recall when it ripped? Do

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you remember if it liked tore and broke and came

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into two separate pieces. Thomas, I don't question. No, Thomas,

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I don't remember. Question. So when you looked into his cell,

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where the lights on or off? Question? I want to

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say the light was on. I think the light was on. Question. Okay,

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so you knocked on the cell and he didn't answer,

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so you had to open it? Thomas. Yeah. Question do

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you recall actually opening turning the key to open the

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cell or was the cell already open? Thomas gnawed the cell.

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I had to open the cell. Question, Okay, you walked in,

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you saw this? Now, I want to in this picture,

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I saw something. This picture right here, the one you initialed.

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You see the mattress on the floor. Thomas, okay. Question

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was that on the floor when you walked in? Thomas,

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I don't remember. I don't know. Question because he would

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have been technically he would have been just laying here,

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right Thomas. Yeah, he's off to the side. Yeah, you

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can't see you can't see his right right here, but

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he's off to the side. Question and he gets caught

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off by Thomas because there's a lip, Like you said,

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there's a lip right here is covering that side of

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the wall. Question. And this mattress, where does it belong

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up here on top? Thomas? Yeah, if that's one on

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the floor, yeah, that belongs on top. Question. And you

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don't recall all of this laying around or anything, Thomas, No,

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I don't, No, I don't. We're just trying to get

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an idea. Was it sell a mess or anything like that? Thomas,

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It could be a totally different thing, because I've seen

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inmates look like that and their mattress on the floor.

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Some inmates sleep on the floor just because it's a

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bunk bed. They don't have to sleep on the top.

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Some people just sleep on the floor. And then I mean,

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I'm just saying, because all that stuff was up top there,

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maybe he just slept on the floor. I don't know. Question. Okay,

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all right, now we're going back to the linens. Thomas,

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Uh huh. Question was Epstein given special privileges to have

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extra clothing or linen's Thomas, I don't know. Question. You're

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not sure if he was what shift would typically take

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care of that, Thomas. It could be day watch or

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evening watch. Question, so either one of those two other shifts. Thomas, Yeah. Question.

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Do you know if anything was in Epstein's cell that

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should not have been there? Thomas, I don't know. Question.

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Can you tell me a little bit about sell searches

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and how they work in the Shoe Thomas. They usually

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conduct it on day shift because that's when most people

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are around, just in case you have an uncooperative inmate

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and you check the cell for contraband. Contraband can be

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anywhere from a leftover tray being in there to too

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much paper in may to get mail too many papers

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left in there, which is called nuisance trash. Question Okay, Thomas,

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But it all depends on anybody else who is conducting it. Question,

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And this isn't regarding your specific shift. I mean to

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discussed your shift. But for cell searches, it shows it's

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the mcc New York Special Post Order Special Housing Unit.

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For here it says all Shoe staff are expected to

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conduct searches of the Special Housing Unit. The morning watch

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officer will conduct conduct searches of the common areas and

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document their findings in the search section of the truscape page.

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The day watch officers will conduct a search of every

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inmate cell who attends recreation. The evening watch officer will

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conduct a minimum of five cell searches during their shift.

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The entire Special Housing Unit will be searched each and

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every week. Do you know is that your understanding of

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what the policy is? Thomas? Yeah. Question do you know

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if the other if MCC was following this policy, the

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officers that were assigned, were they actually conducting the searches? Thomas,

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I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Question.

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Do you have any knowledge of anybody conducting cell searches

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in the shoe Thomas, I'm sure that they do. Like

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I said, I'm not custody up there during the day

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and during the evening, so I don't know what they're

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what the time, and no specific time when those have

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to be done, So I don't know. Question all right?

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And again, just because I showed it to you, do

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you mind just initially page five of fourteen on the

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Special post Orders from the shoe. Do you know if

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any other interactions that Epstein had with other inmates? Thomas

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no question. And you said the last time that you

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interacted with Epstein was when you fed him in the morning. Yeah, Thomas,

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yes question, and I apologize now it was so many

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hours ago. What was his state of mind at the time,

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could you tell? Thomas no question. Did he see him unusual?

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Thomas no question. No, Thomas, no question. Did it all

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strike you that maybe he was getting ready to kill

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himself or anything? Thomas, no question? In distress? No? Did

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he complain about anything? Thomas, no question. Did you talk

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with him at all? Thomas no question. You didn't say

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good morning or anything? Thomas. If I did, I don't remember.

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If I did, here's your tray. Question. Do you know

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any of the threats that were made to Epstein? Thomas

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no question. Do you know why Epstein was in prison? Thomas,

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now I do. Yes. Question. Did you at the time Thomas,

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I really didn't know who Epstein was? Question? You didn't, Thomas,

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or the stipulation behind everything behind him? No question? All right,

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So at the time, did you have any specific feelings

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in regard to Epstein? Thomas no question. No. Did you

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speak about Epstein with other inmates? Thomas no. Question when

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the medical emergency was discovered. Do you believe that you

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and Oel acted appropriately per BOP policy? Thomas? Yes. Question

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were you and Oel supposed to take immediate action or

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should you have waited for responding staff? Thomas, I think

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we're supposed to take immediate action. Question Okay. Did BOP

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policy say that you should have called a lieutenant and

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wait for their arrival prior to entering Epstein's cell? Thomas,

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I don't know what the policy says. Imagine that's your comment. Bro,

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You're a corrections officer here, How don't you know the policy? Question? So,

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have you ever been taught like it could be a

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ruse and if you go in there by yourself without

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responding staff, they could then overtake you and potentially have

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you as a hostage. Thomas, Yeah, I've heard that. I've

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heard that before, but then I've always heard it has

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to be two staff members to one inmate. Question Okay,

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Thomas and me and Noel was there? So? Question? Okay,

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So you believe because Noel was there, you followed the policy? Thomas? Yeah.

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Question okay, Thomas, I'm not worried about question. So you

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said that after the medical emergency, you actually went down

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with them to the second floor. Did anything happen with

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Epstein's body on the way, did you guys like drop

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the stretcher or Thomas? No question, he remained, his body

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getting maintained. What about when you were getting him onto

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the stretcher. Did he do a smooth transition from the

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floor up to the stretcher? Thomas, As far as I remember,

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I don't really recall. Question you don't remember, Thomas, I

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don't think it was any different question him dropping or

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landing or anything like that. Thomas, I don't remember any

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of that. Question. What about when he was going from

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the stretcher to whatever they put him in when they

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got to the second floor Thomas, Yeah. Once we got

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him to the second floor, he got into the room.

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I was hands off though there were so many other

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people around. I wasn't part of that. Question. And did

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you leave at the time leave the room? Thomas, Yeah,

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I left the room at that time. Question Where did

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you go and what did you do? Thomas, I don't

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remember exactly where I went. I think I went to

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my office and then I stepped outside. Question Okay, did

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any supervisor or staff talk to you about the incident? Thomas,

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no question. Did you make any statements to anyone Thomas,

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no question. Did you do or sign any paperwork? Thomas?

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No question. What time did your shift end Thomas, right

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after the incident? Question? Okay, what time did you depart

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the mcc Thomas maybe about nine thirty ish. Question all right,

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so it happened at like six thirty three, but you

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did stay until Thomas, No, I stayed until because eight,

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let's say about eight something, because when I was trying

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to leave and go home, I kept getting calls, of

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course from everybody. Then the warden called me and told

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me he was just concerned about me because of what

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I've seen and me being traumatized, and so he sent

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somebody to talk to me, and they met me further

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down from the thing to come and talk to me. Question. Okay, Thomas,

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somebody from the crisis support team. Question. Okay, all right, folks,

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We're gonna wrap up right here, and then the next

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episode dealing with the topic, we're gonna pick up where

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we left off. All the information that goes with this

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episode can be found in the description box.