Speaker 1: What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the
Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to dive right
back in to the Michael Thomas deposition with the OIG
inspectors question. So we have a few follow up questions,
and it's going to be by multiple different people. Unfortunately
their names are adapted. Question with regard to when you
conducted the indiscernible Thomas, no problem. Question Agent just mentioned
it too. So you walked in. Is Epstein to your
right or your left? Thomas my right? Question? Okay? And
when you see him right, is he hanging? Thomas? Yeah? Question?
And where was in comparison to this in comparison to
this picture? Whereabout was his head Thomas? Maybe a little
bit below the circle? Maybe right here, I guess I
can't remember exactly, or maybe a little bit below that circle. Question?
And this whole body on the floor. Was his button
on the floor Thomas, no question? What part of his
body was on the floor Thomas. I don't recall what
was on the floor. I don't think anything was on
the floor. I don't really remember. Question was his legs
on the floor, feet on the floor? Thomas, Well, I'm
going to say his feet was on the floor? Question?
You would assume because it doesn't look up that high. Thomas, Yeah,
because it doesn't have the yeah. Question, So you think
his feet were on the floor Thomas, I really don't
remember exactly, but I mean I would assume his feet
was on the floor. Question. Now, see there's a knot
on the noose right here? What part of the neck
was that not on? Like when you see it, did
you try to loosen it or tried to take it off?
What part of the neck was that on? Do you
recall at all? Thomas? I really don't. I really don't.
Question when you pulled it, it looks like there's a
portion left back on here? Was that attached to this Thomas?
Like I said, he said, he was a portion of that.
Like I said, when I remember ripping all that down,
I don't know if I just if it slipped through
or whatever may be the case. I just remember going
like this and he going to the ground, and then
we started doing chest compressions. Question and he came off easily? Thomas, Yes,
he came off easily. It didn't come off too hard. Question.
And you don't recall trying to gets cut off? Thomas?
I don't recall taking the noose off. I really don't.
I don't recall taking that thing off from around his neck.
Question do you remember if the linen ripped so it's
separated from this or if this is possibly the same
thing as that. Do you recall when it ripped? Do
you remember if it liked tore and broke and came
into two separate pieces. Thomas, I don't question. No, Thomas,
I don't remember. Question. So when you looked into his cell,
where the lights on or off? Question? I want to
say the light was on. I think the light was on. Question. Okay,
so you knocked on the cell and he didn't answer,
so you had to open it? Thomas. Yeah. Question do
you recall actually opening turning the key to open the
cell or was the cell already open? Thomas gnawed the cell.
I had to open the cell. Question, Okay, you walked in,
you saw this? Now, I want to in this picture,
I saw something. This picture right here, the one you initialed.
You see the mattress on the floor. Thomas, okay. Question
was that on the floor when you walked in? Thomas,
I don't remember. I don't know. Question because he would
have been technically he would have been just laying here,
right Thomas. Yeah, he's off to the side. Yeah, you
can't see you can't see his right right here, but
he's off to the side. Question and he gets caught
off by Thomas because there's a lip, Like you said,
there's a lip right here is covering that side of
the wall. Question. And this mattress, where does it belong
up here on top? Thomas? Yeah, if that's one on
the floor, yeah, that belongs on top. Question. And you
don't recall all of this laying around or anything, Thomas, No,
I don't, No, I don't. We're just trying to get
an idea. Was it sell a mess or anything like that? Thomas,
It could be a totally different thing, because I've seen
inmates look like that and their mattress on the floor.
Some inmates sleep on the floor just because it's a
bunk bed. They don't have to sleep on the top.
Some people just sleep on the floor. And then I mean,
I'm just saying, because all that stuff was up top there,
maybe he just slept on the floor. I don't know. Question. Okay,
all right, now we're going back to the linens. Thomas,
Uh huh. Question was Epstein given special privileges to have
extra clothing or linen's Thomas, I don't know. Question. You're
not sure if he was what shift would typically take
care of that, Thomas. It could be day watch or
evening watch. Question, so either one of those two other shifts. Thomas, Yeah. Question.
Do you know if anything was in Epstein's cell that
should not have been there? Thomas, I don't know. Question.
Can you tell me a little bit about sell searches
and how they work in the Shoe Thomas. They usually
conduct it on day shift because that's when most people
are around, just in case you have an uncooperative inmate
and you check the cell for contraband. Contraband can be
anywhere from a leftover tray being in there to too
much paper in may to get mail too many papers
left in there, which is called nuisance trash. Question Okay, Thomas,
But it all depends on anybody else who is conducting it. Question,
And this isn't regarding your specific shift. I mean to
discussed your shift. But for cell searches, it shows it's
the mcc New York Special Post Order Special Housing Unit.
For here it says all Shoe staff are expected to
conduct searches of the Special Housing Unit. The morning watch
officer will conduct conduct searches of the common areas and
document their findings in the search section of the truscape page.
The day watch officers will conduct a search of every
inmate cell who attends recreation. The evening watch officer will
conduct a minimum of five cell searches during their shift.
The entire Special Housing Unit will be searched each and
every week. Do you know is that your understanding of
what the policy is? Thomas? Yeah. Question do you know
if the other if MCC was following this policy, the
officers that were assigned, were they actually conducting the searches? Thomas,
I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Question.
Do you have any knowledge of anybody conducting cell searches
in the shoe Thomas, I'm sure that they do. Like
I said, I'm not custody up there during the day
and during the evening, so I don't know what they're
what the time, and no specific time when those have
to be done, So I don't know. Question all right?
And again, just because I showed it to you, do
you mind just initially page five of fourteen on the
Special post Orders from the shoe. Do you know if
any other interactions that Epstein had with other inmates? Thomas
no question. And you said the last time that you
interacted with Epstein was when you fed him in the morning. Yeah, Thomas,
yes question, and I apologize now it was so many
hours ago. What was his state of mind at the time,
could you tell? Thomas no question. Did he see him unusual?
Thomas no question. No, Thomas, no question. Did it all
strike you that maybe he was getting ready to kill
himself or anything? Thomas, no question? In distress? No? Did
he complain about anything? Thomas, no question. Did you talk
with him at all? Thomas no question. You didn't say
good morning or anything? Thomas. If I did, I don't remember.
If I did, here's your tray. Question. Do you know
any of the threats that were made to Epstein? Thomas
no question. Do you know why Epstein was in prison? Thomas,
now I do. Yes. Question. Did you at the time Thomas,
I really didn't know who Epstein was? Question? You didn't, Thomas,
or the stipulation behind everything behind him? No question? All right,
So at the time, did you have any specific feelings
in regard to Epstein? Thomas no question. No. Did you
speak about Epstein with other inmates? Thomas no. Question when
the medical emergency was discovered. Do you believe that you
and Oel acted appropriately per BOP policy? Thomas? Yes. Question
were you and Oel supposed to take immediate action or
should you have waited for responding staff? Thomas, I think
we're supposed to take immediate action. Question Okay. Did BOP
policy say that you should have called a lieutenant and
wait for their arrival prior to entering Epstein's cell? Thomas,
I don't know what the policy says. Imagine that's your comment. Bro,
You're a corrections officer here, How don't you know the policy? Question? So,
have you ever been taught like it could be a
ruse and if you go in there by yourself without
responding staff, they could then overtake you and potentially have
you as a hostage. Thomas, Yeah, I've heard that. I've
heard that before, but then I've always heard it has
to be two staff members to one inmate. Question Okay,
Thomas and me and Noel was there? So? Question? Okay,
So you believe because Noel was there, you followed the policy? Thomas? Yeah.
Question okay, Thomas, I'm not worried about question. So you
said that after the medical emergency, you actually went down
with them to the second floor. Did anything happen with
Epstein's body on the way, did you guys like drop
the stretcher or Thomas? No question, he remained, his body
getting maintained. What about when you were getting him onto
the stretcher. Did he do a smooth transition from the
floor up to the stretcher? Thomas, As far as I remember,
I don't really recall. Question you don't remember, Thomas, I
don't think it was any different question him dropping or
landing or anything like that. Thomas, I don't remember any
of that. Question. What about when he was going from
the stretcher to whatever they put him in when they
got to the second floor Thomas, Yeah. Once we got
him to the second floor, he got into the room.
I was hands off though there were so many other
people around. I wasn't part of that. Question. And did
you leave at the time leave the room? Thomas, Yeah,
I left the room at that time. Question Where did
you go and what did you do? Thomas, I don't
remember exactly where I went. I think I went to
my office and then I stepped outside. Question Okay, did
any supervisor or staff talk to you about the incident? Thomas,
no question. Did you make any statements to anyone Thomas,
no question. Did you do or sign any paperwork? Thomas?
No question. What time did your shift end Thomas, right
after the incident? Question? Okay, what time did you depart
the mcc Thomas maybe about nine thirty ish. Question all right,
so it happened at like six thirty three, but you
did stay until Thomas, No, I stayed until because eight,
let's say about eight something, because when I was trying
to leave and go home, I kept getting calls, of
course from everybody. Then the warden called me and told
me he was just concerned about me because of what
I've seen and me being traumatized, and so he sent
somebody to talk to me, and they met me further
down from the thing to come and talk to me. Question. Okay, Thomas,
somebody from the crisis support team. Question. Okay, all right, folks,
We're gonna wrap up right here, and then the next
episode dealing with the topic, we're gonna pick up where
we left off. All the information that goes with this
episode can be found in the description box.