Speaker 1: Hey, folks, welcome to another money space with me calu Aja.
Speaker 1: Of course, on this space, we're talking money, the economy, finance,
Speaker 1: and we want to make it personal to you, bring
Speaker 1: all those topics that you hear about in the news
Speaker 1: and bring it to you in a way that you
Speaker 1: can identify and use to be a better investor. Right
Speaker 1: this week, we're talking and even economic development via transportation
Speaker 1: infrastructure in essence, won't look at how the transportation infrastructure
Speaker 1: and NIDIA is set up and how should we say
Speaker 1: use that or build an infrastructure that allows us to
Speaker 1: generate economic growth. You know, we don't just want economic growth,
Speaker 1: want economic development. We see every year we're building this road,
Speaker 1: or we're building that railway or we're building this airport.
Speaker 1: Are we doing it right? What's the best to sort
Speaker 1: of like utilize this resources. Nigeria has a lot of
Speaker 1: crude oil reserves, crude oil revenues, but we have very
Speaker 1: very poor infrastructure. It's not just a function of building
Speaker 1: a good road here, it's just the intact connectivity and
Speaker 1: again how that connectivity is designed in the states and
Speaker 1: local government areas to then generate that growth. That's essentially
Speaker 1: what we want to talk about today. If you're old
Speaker 1: and not remember something called diffree, I forgot the full mean.
Speaker 1: I think it was directed for food, roads and rural
Speaker 1: infrastructure Diffree, and the idea back then was that we
Speaker 1: had to build from the rural areas to build, even
Speaker 1: if it's just dirt roads. So go to the rural
Speaker 1: areas and then build out dirt roads or just infrastructure
Speaker 1: from rural areas to the little towns so that can
Speaker 1: get food transported from those rural areas to the towns.
Speaker 1: That helps food inflation, That generates wealth for the farmers,
Speaker 1: that generates economic activity, It boosts sme It even reduces
Speaker 1: crime and terrorism. So if you look at what's happening
Speaker 1: to Nigeria, if we had addressed and kept on with
Speaker 1: the different pace from the eighties, perhaps won't have had
Speaker 1: the insurgency, the bandit trade, the kidnappings that we have now.
Speaker 1: So I want to bring the guy I Meansnamy is
Speaker 1: a guy I follow on Twitter. He talked a lot
Speaker 1: about transportation. I like his take on it. I'm surprised.
Speaker 1: I don't know what he does in his day job,
Speaker 1: but he don't bring an insight into it. Also, I'm
Speaker 1: sharing the I shared the real master plan for Nigeria.
Speaker 1: I'm going to share the road and the water with
Speaker 1: master plan for Nigeria so that we can talk around,
Speaker 1: so I can get a visual on what we're talking about.
Speaker 1: So if you look at my Twitter space, I just
Speaker 1: shared the real master plan. I'm gonna act tonomy to
Speaker 1: just speak around these issues. So totame, let me have
Speaker 1: you on mutes. Just do a quick intro and then
Speaker 1: I have a few questions for you. And then of
Speaker 1: course if guys want to ask questions or want to
Speaker 1: send a DM or need clarifications, I'm sure you can
Speaker 1: do that. So time, go ahead and commute yourself. Just
Speaker 1: give us intro. I mean I think you're muted. Can
Speaker 1: you hear me? Okay, so I'm not sure. Yeah, there
Speaker 1: we go.
Speaker 2: Okay, can you can you hear me?
Speaker 3: Now?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 1: I can? Yeah, go for you bro.
Speaker 4: Okay, all right, thanks, thanks kylu for having me here.
Speaker 2: My name is Tanami.
Speaker 4: And in terms of my day job, my day job,
Speaker 4: I work for the electric utility here in California. But
Speaker 4: I just have interest in transport and I have studied
Speaker 4: a lot about about it over the years, So I
Speaker 4: guess that's my that's my background, and I guess I'm
Speaker 4: open to whatever questions you want to ask regarding the
Speaker 4: topic of where we want to I'll go.
Speaker 1: Tell me, let's start from rail. I just shared the
Speaker 1: REIL master plan. I'm sure if you guys can see
Speaker 1: go to my last tweet, you'd see the last I
Speaker 1: just shared. Now, now the Nigeria Reil master Plan to me,
Speaker 1: I know, I saw a comment that you did Ugo
Speaker 1: State government was gonna connect rail from Ugo State to
Speaker 1: the port in on it. That's besides in general, right
Speaker 1: if you look at the REIL master Plan, we are
Speaker 1: still operating the rail lines that the Klondel government built
Speaker 1: for Nigeria. So in essence, we have this big line
Speaker 1: from Legos all the way to Cano that's a standard gauge.
Speaker 1: We also have from Portarcot all the way to mad
Speaker 1: Degree that's also no that's they're all narrow gauge. From
Speaker 1: Legos to Kano, from Portaco to mad Degree are all
Speaker 1: narrow gauge. Now from Legos to Ebaden it's standard gauge
Speaker 1: with upgrade that standard gage Legos to eat Baden. From
Speaker 1: Abuja to Kaduna standard gauge. Then we have this railway
Speaker 1: in the middle of Nigeria, not connected to anybody from
Speaker 1: worried to attack by also standard gauge. If you look
Speaker 1: at it totam me, you see that we haven't built
Speaker 1: anything outside what the quote unquote British built for us,
Speaker 1: the British buildings realized in the nineteenth We haven't built
Speaker 1: any horizontal realize this are all built to take goods
Speaker 1: out from the north, from the east to the port
Speaker 1: and to be exported to the UK. We have won't
Speaker 1: converted to this and we are still running the narrow
Speaker 1: gauge and we just have a very very few standard gauge.
Speaker 1: So just in terms of your view on real you know,
Speaker 1: what are we doing right? What are we doing wrong?
Speaker 1: What can we do better to drive economic growth?
Speaker 4: Yeah, so in terms in terms of what Nigeria is
Speaker 4: doing right for real, at least it is in the consideration,
Speaker 4: so at least there's a plan.
Speaker 2: So that's that's the right part.
Speaker 4: The wrong part is the what.
Speaker 2: Is being prioritized, what is being built and also.
Speaker 4: How how the infrastructure that is built is operate. So
Speaker 4: those are those are the things that are that are
Speaker 4: being done wrong. In terms of the routing we there's
Speaker 4: a there's a tendency. It's not just real. It's the
Speaker 4: same thing with the road network. There's a tendency for
Speaker 4: Nigeria too to not course correct. We stick to old
Speaker 4: plans even though those plants are outdated. So yes, it
Speaker 4: made sense when the colonial administration, we're building.
Speaker 2: These rail aliance for their administration.
Speaker 4: But Nigeria has to look at what how the geography
Speaker 4: of the current how the geography of the current population is,
Speaker 4: what's the population distribution, what is the movement of different
Speaker 4: items regarding food, people, goods and then days our plan
Speaker 4: on that. But we just keep sticking to this colonial
Speaker 4: plan of Legosticano legos to Carano, Legosticano put out to
Speaker 4: Madogree and we don't do it. We don't re evaluate,
Speaker 4: we don't make any corrections, and if we do make adjustments.
Speaker 5: To it, it's.
Speaker 4: Like very.
Speaker 2: The adjustment don't really add value.
Speaker 4: They are very minimal and they don't add value to
Speaker 4: the to the to the larger picture.
Speaker 2: So for for for the real.
Speaker 4: Yes, we don't have no we we we don't have.
Speaker 2: Any East west rail linkages.
Speaker 4: And the only don't I don't know if you can
Speaker 4: call that East West linkage the linkage between Kaduna and Joss.
Speaker 1: That's what I count.
Speaker 4: But the when we want to build, when we want
Speaker 4: to build a realm okay. So that there's another thing
Speaker 4: too is how we how we phase infrastructure. So there's
Speaker 4: something about.
Speaker 2: Rail where until you connect to.
Speaker 4: Critical points, that real line, that rail line, once built
Speaker 4: is as good as useless. So if you just build
Speaker 4: so we we have this like for example, the link
Speaker 4: between Abuja and Kaduna, that is not a that is
Speaker 4: not a useful distance for rail to connect, and you
Speaker 4: build it in such a way that it is islanded
Speaker 4: and once it's built, the utility is their minimal. So
Speaker 4: that's why that road that that corridor is it's not
Speaker 4: meeting any ridership expectation, it's not transporting any goods, it's
Speaker 4: not doing anything.
Speaker 2: It's just there.
Speaker 4: Then you still but you have to pay the loans
Speaker 4: on that on that road, you're not getting any utility
Speaker 4: out of it because we don't phase properly.
Speaker 3: So you want to connect.
Speaker 4: The critical points and you want to do the entire
Speaker 4: corridor for those critical points.
Speaker 1: First of all, so you do so in essence, if
Speaker 1: you're going to do you want to do the canal.
Speaker 1: You want to do the jaws, you want to do
Speaker 1: the midigree, and it's like a Hobburn spoke approach more
Speaker 1: or less.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So for example, let's say we want to stick to.
Speaker 4: The colonial colonial plan. We want to build Legos to Carne. Fine,
Speaker 4: let's stick to that. If we want to phase that properly.
Speaker 4: The critical city is on those corridors Legos, Abuja and Kano.
Speaker 4: So if you're going to face that project, you can
Speaker 4: only the only the right way to face that project
Speaker 4: is two phases Legos to Abuja, Abuja to Kando. Any
Speaker 4: other phase implementation you're wasting resources because that resource is
Speaker 4: going to lie underutilized. So that is a major problem
Speaker 4: that we have when we phase things.
Speaker 2: So we did.
Speaker 6: We did Legos to Ibadon and then we stopped Iba,
Speaker 6: we stopped and.
Speaker 2: Then is blank.
Speaker 4: And then despite the fact that Legos to it is
Speaker 4: a short distance, but it is.
Speaker 2: An okay okay corridor, I mean it's it's it has
Speaker 2: some utility.
Speaker 3: But then we don't.
Speaker 2: Operate it properly.
Speaker 4: We run only two trains a day the same way.
Speaker 4: The trains even less than what the trains we're running
Speaker 4: vacuum the colonial era gotcha.
Speaker 5: So that is so those are those are the failings
Speaker 5: that we run into when we when we try to
Speaker 5: build or implement real infrastructure in Nigeria.
Speaker 1: Let me give you numbers and I just share a twet. Guys,
Speaker 1: if you only just go to my Twitter, share a tweet.
Speaker 1: Now it's on the real economics in Nigeria and you
Speaker 1: can see what they've done here. I'm not sure who
Speaker 1: did this study so I can give credit, but I
Speaker 1: wasn't done by me. I know if you did it
Speaker 1: telling you, but I can give it so I can
Speaker 1: give credit. It's real economics right. It talks about the
Speaker 1: reil lines in Nigeria. So what they've done here is
Speaker 1: to pick the existing rail lines right Legos to portar Courts,
Speaker 1: maybe a Portaco to Enugu. They've done the distance, they've
Speaker 1: done the annual revenues, and they've done the line density.
Speaker 1: So it goes to your point. You're making told that
Speaker 1: if you want to build rails, you want to look
Speaker 1: at the density where there's should we say, consumers of
Speaker 1: the reil lines, so the lines pay themselves. So essentially,
Speaker 1: if you're building between two points, you want to build
Speaker 1: two points out, got commuters that can move real freight
Speaker 1: and people, so that line pays itself. Now, if you
Speaker 1: look at what Nigeria has invested in and guys, if
Speaker 1: you look at the chart, it will help you because
Speaker 1: you can see visually what I'm talking about. Nigeria has
Speaker 1: built since the White Man left. We've built Legos to
Speaker 1: ibad On standard gauge. We've built Abuja to Kaduna standard gauge.
Speaker 1: We've also built Worried to Attack Bay standard gauge. Everything
Speaker 1: else in Nigeria was built by the British. Everything else,
Speaker 1: so the Olegos to Kano, you're a portacle to middle
Speaker 1: grade were all built by the British. We've just maybe
Speaker 1: made the lines better. But the standard gauge is just
Speaker 1: Legos to Ibadon, not to Abuja and Worry to Attack
Speaker 1: By Now, if you come to that chat to me,
Speaker 1: I know if you can see that chat I'm talking about,
Speaker 1: they have scored that the most viable line you could
Speaker 1: have in Nigeria, The most viable real life Najia is
Speaker 1: going to be leg Us to portar Court via on
Speaker 1: a chair. They put a line density there because that's
Speaker 1: where you have the greatest amount of movement of Nigeria,
Speaker 1: both freight and people. After then you have legos to
Speaker 1: eat bad On. Then you have legos to Caliber again
Speaker 1: via on a chair. Then you have legos to Abuja
Speaker 1: via Mina, then legos to Protacot. You have protact in Enugu, Protacotabuja.
Speaker 1: If you go to the very very end, you see
Speaker 1: worry to attack. But it's in the middle of nowhere
Speaker 1: that real hen was built to move iron ore between
Speaker 1: our job that it's not a commercial line, but we
Speaker 1: spent billions in dollars to activate that line. So it
Speaker 1: goes to what you're saying that we're not building these
Speaker 1: things in tereads of looking at the numbers the economics.
Speaker 1: We're building it to do regionalism or want to maintain
Speaker 1: a campaign promise. So do you want to if you
Speaker 1: can see that chap telling me that's a very very
Speaker 1: good point for us to then look at the economies
Speaker 1: of where we are deployed funds and where we should
Speaker 1: have deployed funds.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can see, I can see the chart.
Speaker 5: So so so that.
Speaker 6: Chart I created that chart based just calculating readership based.
Speaker 1: So you did it, Yeah, yeah, great, yeah, great, great, great, excellent, yeah.
Speaker 4: Based on the populations and using a gravity model to
Speaker 4: see how the what the expected ridership will be based
Speaker 4: on the distance and the population of those different notes.
Speaker 4: So based on based on that, a line connecting Legos
Speaker 4: on each is the most viable real corridor because that
Speaker 4: covers a that is the highest density concentration of population,
Speaker 4: and that's the highest traffic corridor.
Speaker 2: And it also so what also.
Speaker 4: Helps kind of buttress this is also the traffic analysis
Speaker 4: that have been done.
Speaker 2: By a f dB and in that.
Speaker 4: Analysis, the and if they're looking at truck truck traffic,
Speaker 4: the most congested or the corridor with the highest amount
Speaker 4: of truck traffic is between Legos and Aicha.
Speaker 2: So you have that corridor on.
Speaker 4: That being in or experts way that is heavily congested
Speaker 4: with trucks because that is where the track, that is
Speaker 4: where the traffic is. So if we look, if we
Speaker 4: if we use these types of analysis to make our
Speaker 4: decisions on where we put our money in terms of
Speaker 4: the infrastructure, we're going to make better decisions.
Speaker 2: And for some reason Nigeria is not really.
Speaker 4: It's not putting the data ahead of making those decisions.
Speaker 4: The decisions are just made and then they just go
Speaker 4: with the decision regardless of whatever value.
Speaker 2: Is gotten from that piece of infrastructure. So if we're
Speaker 2: going by this, what the country.
Speaker 4: Should be doing, like all hands on deck is trying
Speaker 4: to connect Legos on each other or.
Speaker 1: Vial. This is very real.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is, this.
Speaker 4: Is this is this is by rail and on that corridor.
Speaker 4: The Legos Calaba is is Karba is just an.
Speaker 2: Extension of the Legos to corridor. You branch off.
Speaker 4: Of you use the same corridor from Legos on each
Speaker 4: a portal chord, and then you branch off of Abba
Speaker 4: for the extension to Klaba.
Speaker 3: That will be a short extension.
Speaker 6: So you get so that's so by building that corridor,
Speaker 6: you also you're able to.
Speaker 4: Get the extension to Klabat by a short short branch.
Speaker 4: Is I think the Lego's portact word is about six
Speaker 4: hundred and seventy five kilometers.
Speaker 2: The branch to Abbad is.
Speaker 4: Only one hundred and twenty one hundred and twenty nine
Speaker 4: one hundred and thirty kilometers.
Speaker 3: It's a very short branch.
Speaker 2: So you and then you see that traffic.
Speaker 4: Onto the same corridor, so you get this more utility
Speaker 4: out of building that corridor and that.
Speaker 2: Is what we should be doing. And in terms of getting.
Speaker 4: So that gives you the most viable east west corridor
Speaker 4: on the country. And then when you're looking at the
Speaker 4: north south getting Legos to Abuja, the current to the
Speaker 4: current plan, I would say the current plan is fine.
Speaker 4: Like the current plan, they're going from Legos Ibadon Aline Mina,
Speaker 4: Abuja and then extension to to Cano. That's fine, and
Speaker 4: that that's a corridor that should be.
Speaker 2: That should be good. But the one with the highest
Speaker 2: quality definitely is Legos.
Speaker 1: On each aproduct, let's to let's touch roads. So we
Speaker 1: agree that the Legos to the East to West railway
Speaker 1: is the most viable, has the most cargo. Again, just
Speaker 1: Legos to Abaton is still part of that link. Right.
Speaker 1: What about roads? Right now, we have this quote unquote
Speaker 1: Coastal Road, a brand new coastal road. Before the coastal Road,
Speaker 1: we have the East West Road. Again, guys, if you
Speaker 1: go on that the street, I shared the Nigerian twenty
Speaker 1: five years Strategic Vision for roads as well. Right, so
Speaker 1: we have the East West Road, we have the East
Speaker 1: the proposed coastal railway from China. When that was issued,
Speaker 1: I think between twenty thirteen that was the largest contract
Speaker 1: ever issued to a Chinese corporation ever by a foreign government,
Speaker 1: was about for thirteen billion if I remember back then
Speaker 1: in thirteen. Do we now have the coastal road? So
Speaker 1: we have the coastal road, we have the East West
Speaker 1: Road itself, then we have the coastal railway all three
Speaker 1: of them? Is there any prioritization which should happen first?
Speaker 1: Should the roads happen first? For the rails? I don't
Speaker 1: think we have more to build both of them together,
Speaker 1: or can we build both of them together? What's your
Speaker 1: take on the road versus rail connecting the east and
Speaker 1: the west because that's where the trade is.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So in terms of road and rail, they serve
Speaker 4: their complimentary so that in terms of rail real needs
Speaker 4: the most.
Speaker 3: You need more prioritization in terms.
Speaker 4: Of what corridor you need to build when you build rail,
Speaker 4: because the thing with rail is.
Speaker 2: In order for that infrastructure to.
Speaker 4: Be utilized optimally, it needs to be in a high,
Speaker 4: very high traffic density corridor.
Speaker 2: That's rail. Uh, it needs to be in a very
Speaker 2: high traffic density corridor. So when so you pick a
Speaker 2: high high traffic.
Speaker 4: Density corridor and build you can build a rail link, but.
Speaker 2: You also need you also need uh a road link
Speaker 2: because the thing they road.
Speaker 3: Is more allows you to disperse.
Speaker 2: You have more jump gens allo allows you to distribute
Speaker 2: like you can get in. You can feeding more.
Speaker 4: You can feeding distributed traffic onto the corridor. Unrail you
Speaker 4: have like stations along it and only those stations have access.
Speaker 2: But the road can bringing those kind of act as.
Speaker 4: A feeder onto the onto the railway and the railway
Speaker 4: just acts as the main.
Speaker 2: Trunk line for the for the for the highways.
Speaker 6: The there's there should be like if we want to build.
Speaker 4: Like enable economic development, we have to build both. We
Speaker 4: have to build both radio and highways. But in terms
Speaker 4: of the highways, we also have to build the right highways.
Speaker 4: So so let me go over over the highways a
Speaker 4: little bit.
Speaker 2: Currently we have four North South highway.
Speaker 4: Corridors in in Nigeria and yeah, those we have.
Speaker 2: The A one that is going from Sukutu to.
Speaker 4: Uh Jemba, Ilari, Chagamo, Legos and then.
Speaker 2: East of that you have the A two from Daura.
Speaker 4: Kano, Abuja, Benin City, Warri Port Hacord and then you
Speaker 4: have the A three going from Madugurrie, Bauchi, Jaws, Marko,
Speaker 4: d Abah Port Hacord.
Speaker 3: And then you have the A four which is named
Speaker 3: from Madugurri.
Speaker 4: Jalingo, Koja and Calaba h So those are the main
Speaker 4: north south roads. Just as we lack east west rail linkage,
Speaker 4: Nigeria lacks good east west highway linkages. So if you
Speaker 4: look at the east west, the only major east west
Speaker 4: route is East.
Speaker 2: West Road.
Speaker 4: Going from Less be named on Nita and then there's
Speaker 4: a huge gap before you get to.
Speaker 2: There's a huge gap.
Speaker 4: Until you get to Cookie before there's another bridge to
Speaker 4: cross to cut across. So and then when you look
Speaker 4: at traffic, When you look at traffic, if you want
Speaker 4: to in terms of prioritizing what highways to build or
Speaker 4: where to put money into, you have to look at
Speaker 4: where our bottlenecks are and how to releave those bottlenecks.
Speaker 4: So on our urway network we have they are like
Speaker 4: three major bottlenecks on the highways.
Speaker 3: The number one.
Speaker 4: Bottleneck despite the fact that it's not a lot of traffic,
Speaker 4: it's not as much traffic as on the east west side.
Speaker 4: But because there's a there's a scarcity of access. The
Speaker 4: local Ja access is the number bout one bottleneck in
Speaker 4: the entire Ninjera highway.
Speaker 2: System because all traffic. We have a huge traffic.
Speaker 4: Demand coming from in terms of in terms of goods,
Speaker 4: you have a lot of agricultural products coming from the
Speaker 4: Middle Belt, the northern part and going towards the west,
Speaker 4: the southwest going towards Lagos and the only route so
Speaker 4: all that traffic has to be routed through Local Jack
Speaker 4: to get to Lagos. And then you have all the
Speaker 4: traffic from the southern part of nigera.
Speaker 2: And also into goods moving between the.
Speaker 4: South and the northern part of Nigeria that's from Port Harcourt,
Speaker 4: Southeast region, they have to go through the same local
Speaker 4: Jack access, so everything gets clogged up on there.
Speaker 2: So in terms of when we want.
Speaker 4: To prioritize highways is how do we relieve that we
Speaker 4: leave that bottleneck? Same thing with the legos on each
Speaker 4: on eacha is a huge bottleneck and how do we
Speaker 4: relieve it. Yes, to build this second Niger Bridge, and
Speaker 4: that's a good that's a good initiative, but that's just
Speaker 4: the bridge. It's still don't traffic onto the same road,
Speaker 4: So it sort of solve the problem.
Speaker 3: But the entire stretch has to be.
Speaker 2: Has to be completed to get the value of that.
Speaker 4: Second Niger Bridge, and we need and we need another
Speaker 4: linkage like in between those two.
Speaker 2: We need another linkage like from.
Speaker 4: Ida between Ida and Againybody, there's that is like a
Speaker 4: prime spot for an east west highway linkage and that's
Speaker 4: something that we should we should be building if we
Speaker 4: look at how we want to relief relieve all those bottlenecks.
Speaker 3: If we build a.
Speaker 4: If we build a diagonal highway from.
Speaker 2: Legos to Maiduguri, cut through.
Speaker 4: All the north south highways, get a bypass around Lokoja,
Speaker 4: you have you have a new route that all that
Speaker 4: traffic can fit through and.
Speaker 3: Actually relieve a lot of the corridor.
Speaker 4: And then from there from Akuai you can build an
Speaker 4: east west an east west link through Ida and again
Speaker 4: Body to Enugu and Abatlki and you have what you
Speaker 4: have an east west corridor and that links up to
Speaker 4: what the federal government is currently building with the Abuja to.
Speaker 7: Kaba Highway and so that serves that relieves.
Speaker 4: The bottlenecks within the existing network and create generate so
Speaker 4: degenerates new new economic activity. Now, if you look at
Speaker 4: what the government is building with the Scotwo to Badagri,
Speaker 4: it cuts it goes through a border that doesn't serve
Speaker 4: any of the existing population. And the same thing with
Speaker 4: the Legos Calaba Highway. And that's another thing with the
Speaker 4: not changing plans le Goes Calaba and Soco to Badagrie
Speaker 4: highways a highway plans from the nineteen seventies. And we
Speaker 4: rather than updating, updating our highway master plan and focusing
Speaker 4: on what we need now or what is it wll
Speaker 4: be useful now, we just said okay, so we made
Speaker 4: those plans in the nineteen seventies.
Speaker 2: Today they don't really they don't serve.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean don't say as well, yeah, you've been
Speaker 1: diplomatic to I get it. But again, if you look
Speaker 1: at Nigeria, this is year two twenty five, right, and
Speaker 1: Niger at nineteen sixty. All the roads and rails we
Speaker 1: have apart from this huge investment within the nineteen seventies,
Speaker 1: I think it was undergo and we build the Legacy
Speaker 1: bad On and the Legos being in it's still almost
Speaker 1: the same. We've got to be expanded added one lane.
Speaker 1: There's been no massive like in like you're talking about
Speaker 1: a diagonal road. We have the money to build Legos
Speaker 1: to mid degree and Calabat to Sokoto. We didn't do it,
Speaker 1: you know. So it's what what while managing what we
Speaker 1: didn't do? Now we don't have any money to do
Speaker 1: this diagonal thing you're talking about. But let me before
Speaker 1: I let lots of folks on, let me bring you
Speaker 1: to railways to sorry to waterways, because we've done rail
Speaker 1: a bit, with downe roads a bit. We're gonna come
Speaker 1: back to them. Look at water wasys A. Can I
Speaker 1: share the waterways map in Nigeria. It's possible to go
Speaker 1: from Kaduna to a Saba by water, possibly go to
Speaker 1: Yola to a Saba by water. I mean if you
Speaker 1: really invest, if you literally invest, you can go from
Speaker 1: Gusau to a Saba by water. I mean it sounds improbable,
Speaker 1: but if Nigeria was Amsterdam or America, they would have
Speaker 1: done it. By now. From Gusau you can go from
Speaker 1: Gusau to Sokoto, then to burning Kevy, true kindi Toru Mina,
Speaker 1: true to Lokoja and then true to a Saba. I
Speaker 1: hear you talk about loko Ja. Bypass. There are barges.
Speaker 1: We can put an inland port in Lokoja that will
Speaker 1: just take barges directly from Yenoga or Worry straight to
Speaker 1: Lokoja and then up north via the water, not rails,
Speaker 1: not roads, and I think it's a bit cheaper. Will
Speaker 1: not lay in rails. You can't go and steal the
Speaker 1: the the real God and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1: So is there any roole for war time? Is going
Speaker 1: to be the last question to speak for what I
Speaker 1: is to integrate this road, real and water in Nigeria. Again, guys,
Speaker 1: the forgraphic sharing case on the folow the picture looking
Speaker 1: at telling you you've got the.
Speaker 4: Floor, okay, thank you. So in terms of in terms
Speaker 4: of waterways.
Speaker 6: The the waterways can.
Speaker 4: Definitely augment our transportation transportation network. The the thing is
Speaker 4: like each each mode serves a serves a different utility.
Speaker 4: So if the waterways is good for like low value
Speaker 4: high weight commodities like if you're moving gravel, building materials, cement,
Speaker 4: if you're moving steel, you're moving or and so it's
Speaker 4: that the waterways make a very good also agricultural products
Speaker 4: because those those that tend to have a lot of
Speaker 4: a lot of weight.
Speaker 2: And water doesn't have water has.
Speaker 4: It's not as it's it's always it's cheaper per kilogram
Speaker 4: to move water move on water, but you have a uh,
Speaker 4: it's not as fast, so you so you tend to
Speaker 4: move goods that are not very time sensitive onto the
Speaker 4: bargains that are heavier and non time sensitive.
Speaker 2: And rail and road is faster.
Speaker 4: Road has more, Road has more distribution points access points
Speaker 4: than real has. Real has fewer access points. But everything,
Speaker 4: you can integrate everything together. In terms of our waterways. Uh,
Speaker 4: the so in the.
Speaker 2: Northern reaches of the northern reaches of.
Speaker 4: The countries, yes, those are rivers, but there are lots
Speaker 4: of lots of rapids, so they're not like actually connected.
Speaker 4: The only like useful waterway section is the AH from
Speaker 4: the Gulf to local Ja and then you go and
Speaker 4: then you go east on the on the Benley River.
Speaker 4: So that's the only I would say, if we want
Speaker 4: to use a major.
Speaker 2: Water AH water corridor, So that's the only that's the
Speaker 2: only one.
Speaker 3: But it needs a lot of it needs a lot
Speaker 3: of investment.
Speaker 2: It needs.
Speaker 1: Then I mean, you know when we had the one
Speaker 1: that we didn't know what.
Speaker 2: One thing with.
Speaker 3: Dredging it is not a one time thing.
Speaker 2: The d because because because.
Speaker 4: Of the gradients of the slope and also the just
Speaker 4: the nature of the rivers, you have to constantly dredge.
Speaker 2: So it's you. So it's so that's.
Speaker 4: The maintenance that's needed to maintain maintain those waterways.
Speaker 2: So you have to constantly dredge them. And then you
Speaker 2: have you have to you have link.
Speaker 4: You have a limitation on how the amount of uh
Speaker 4: draft that you get in the dry season, so that
Speaker 4: will also reduce the carrying capacity of the river.
Speaker 2: But yes, it can be and it should.
Speaker 4: Be incorporated into the transportation network. For example, we have
Speaker 4: like we see the I've always pushed back against all
Speaker 4: the agitation.
Speaker 2: For deep sea port in the in the in the eastern.
Speaker 4: Part of Nigeria because you have to building for structure
Speaker 4: where it makes where it makes sense. In terms of
Speaker 4: port infrastructure, focusing on the same thing, we focusing on bottlenecks,
Speaker 4: focusing on bordernecks generates more value than spreading. Spreading your
Speaker 4: spend on new on new ports. So if we focus
Speaker 4: on the bottleneck that is legos, so that is where
Speaker 4: all the investments should go for ports, and then we
Speaker 4: have an interconnected system.
Speaker 3: Where for example, you have the big ships who.
Speaker 4: Come to Leky and then the barges will leave Leggy
Speaker 4: Leggy and.
Speaker 2: Distribute to the other smaller ports Sailorry or Caaba.
Speaker 4: And also the barges will take some of that cargo
Speaker 4: operator to on NHR loco Ja and you have a
Speaker 4: system where the rest of manager can still be served,
Speaker 4: but we are doing it more efficiently because no major
Speaker 4: carrier is going to haul at some port in.
Speaker 2: Ibaka because that's not where the demand is.
Speaker 3: They're going away with demanded.
Speaker 4: So all the major ships are going to call at Legos.
Speaker 4: So what we need to do is how to integrate
Speaker 4: that into the rest of the system.
Speaker 1: So and I just shared again, I just shared told
Speaker 1: like a budge these flat barges that are using in Germany.
Speaker 1: They can go very very low draft if you look
Speaker 1: on the on the time I just shared one of
Speaker 1: those barges. Again, I think we need to port one
Speaker 1: in Legos and one of the far side of Nigeria,
Speaker 1: maybe in Calabar or Aqui Bums somewhere like that where
Speaker 1: they are the sapal ones that are smart when compared
Speaker 1: to Legos. So you have two entry point just for redundancies.
Speaker 1: Right again, you can have a deep seaport in Legos
Speaker 1: and like you have a deep seaport in our back,
Speaker 1: the deep seaports in our back serves and north east
Speaker 1: side the deep seaport, and like it serves the south
Speaker 1: the north west side of the country. And you have
Speaker 1: that redundancy, you ufload the goods and the deep sea
Speaker 1: port is transshipped there. These inner ports into the inner
Speaker 1: cities very real and all that. It's possible, you know,
Speaker 1: it's possible. I just think that in terms of a comprehensive,
Speaker 1: comprehensive infrastructure addresses rail, waterways, roads together, I don't think
Speaker 1: we're there. You know, we always have a minister will
Speaker 1: come in and say I'm going to build airport that
Speaker 1: means of aviation. We don't have a minister I'm going
Speaker 1: to build the roads. We have a Minister of transports.
Speaker 1: I'm going to build the rail. We should have had
Speaker 1: by now a coordinative minister of infrastructure that will say
Speaker 1: what we want to achieve. If we're going to what's exports,
Speaker 1: then the infrastructure should be targeted at where we are
Speaker 1: making the largest export. Right Couco cash you not bring
Speaker 1: the infant, bring these goods out of the rural areas
Speaker 1: to the towns where they are warehouse either fair rail
Speaker 1: or water with and then thing to the port. If
Speaker 1: we're doing local consumption, then East West roads to move
Speaker 1: those goods and people across Nigeria so we can consume.
Speaker 1: But it seems that and the roads are a great example,
Speaker 1: and we're gonna get others speak now. Roads are a
Speaker 1: great example. We have the Eastern East West Road, it's abandoned.
Speaker 1: That's very very important. Rates abandoned. We have the East
Speaker 1: West Coastal Highway railway, it's abandoned. Now we have the
Speaker 1: coastal road. What's the difference with the coastal Road and
Speaker 1: the East West Road. The messages said now they're going
Speaker 1: to move the road more into the hinterland because of course,
Speaker 1: you can't build roads or bridges on the swamps in
Speaker 1: two years. It's not possible. Anyone thinking that we're going
Speaker 1: to build and a coastal railway in eight years doesn't
Speaker 1: understand how roads are built in a swamp. So time, man,
Speaker 1: if you want to respond or let me let let
Speaker 1: others come in now and trying to have more questions.
Speaker 1: But my issue is the integration looking at it as
Speaker 1: a Nigeria as a whole and then to integrate rail road, airport,
Speaker 1: waterways into one and then attach it to the economic
Speaker 1: plan of Nigeria. We seem not to be doing that
Speaker 1: and that's really my issue.
Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely, there is the routes of the coastal road
Speaker 4: is just like.
Speaker 2: The terrain is that's the nightmarriage terrain. Looking at the SIA.
Speaker 4: Correct the going through all that swamp, all that multiple
Speaker 4: bridges that are going to be needed swamp in Marshland.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think.
Speaker 2: It's like there's nobody living there.
Speaker 1: But it's the point. Is the point again, if you
Speaker 1: raise this point on Twitter, if you say the road
Speaker 1: should not be built, you're going to get abuse. But
Speaker 1: the point I make again is this the East West
Speaker 1: Road is connecting the state away from the coast. You know,
Speaker 1: if you go to America, they have their roads on
Speaker 1: the coast, but they don't have that. There's no Florida
Speaker 1: Everglades Highway. There's California, no scenic routes, wasn't on that road.
Speaker 1: There's I five, but they don't have in Nigeria. Once
Speaker 1: you go from Legos to Orgon, it stops to go
Speaker 1: from that Orgon to to Bielsa to Calabar. Do you
Speaker 1: know how many bridges you're gonna build and you want
Speaker 1: to build that in eighty years with which how much
Speaker 1: one point three trillion? That's a nira version of what
Speaker 1: want to build. So it's not going to happen. We're
Speaker 1: not being persive, missed stick, it's just not going to happen.
Speaker 1: So maybe the moneys have been spelled to do the
Speaker 1: East West Road and perhaps fix up the other roads.
Speaker 1: Like you're talking about local. Local is more important for
Speaker 1: the food for the inflation than a new, brand new project.
Speaker 1: And again we've not talked about the Soco too to
Speaker 1: lego us. It's now called an intercontinental high way or
Speaker 1: something like that. You know it's the Minister of Power
Speaker 1: uses these words and so but standing hanging the time,
Speaker 1: let's get order us to speak, get a free bud afree.
Speaker 1: How are you doing? You've had what we've been speaking
Speaker 1: about with autonomy, talking about the the infrastructure Nigeria and
Speaker 1: how it is thor really tied to economic growth. How
Speaker 1: I want to build the road, but that road is
Speaker 1: not tied to what our economic plan is. If we
Speaker 1: want a one trillion dollar economy and now I think
Speaker 1: it's going to be eight years now what you will
Speaker 1: be investing, that's what we're talking about. So everybody, you've
Speaker 1: got the filosoph I can't get it, Yes I can.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we clearly that's the biggest problem.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah yah, yeah, yeah, you're fine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think yeah, it's a timely drop.
Speaker 3: The infrastructure is always key. Well targets that infrastructure.
Speaker 2: Development is always key to develop the growth.
Speaker 8: And I'm I'm actually grateful to have this bad because
Speaker 8: I actually have a few questions as far as just figures.
Speaker 8: So you've mentioned a bit about your points, and I
Speaker 8: want to understand myself.
Speaker 9: Just the cost of to the Nigeri economy if you
Speaker 9: do have those figures on the cost of the Nagery
Speaker 9: economy of the current points, that's the first question. The
Speaker 9: question is if you have been painting a picture to
Speaker 9: government politicians, what do you see.
Speaker 8: As the biggest the prospect on what in value at
Speaker 8: the moment, Let's say if we have because currently it's
Speaker 8: always good government. Government budget is always going to be limited.
Speaker 8: If you had to target certain projects or certain areas
Speaker 8: to have the largest impact, now, what areas would that
Speaker 8: be and if you have you have a sense of
Speaker 8: figures as well on that on how much value by
Speaker 8: leaving on the table, by having by targeting these specific
Speaker 8: project So I.
Speaker 3: Just give those first two questions if you can give
Speaker 3: us some.
Speaker 2: Light on that. Thanks, Thanks Eppable for those questions. So
Speaker 2: for the first one.
Speaker 4: In terms of the costs for the choke points.
Speaker 2: I don't have any any value on what's the costs
Speaker 2: of those.
Speaker 4: Choke points to the coignland during economy. And also for
Speaker 4: the other probably or for the other one. In terms
Speaker 4: of the second question about the biggest prospect to unlock
Speaker 4: value for if I would say, if it is for
Speaker 4: all the for all the info, for all the different
Speaker 4: forms of infrastructure in Nigeria, something that will unlock the
Speaker 4: most value right now, if we like just put money
Speaker 4: on it.
Speaker 3: Would be.
Speaker 4: A Legos to mad Degree highway that will unlock because
Speaker 4: there it will because it doesn't just serve Legos and
Speaker 4: the Degree, it serves a vast amount of the population
Speaker 4: along the corridor. So that will unlock a lot of value.
Speaker 4: I don't know what the monetary value is, but definitely
Speaker 4: that would unlock a lot across different UH value change
Speaker 4: within within.
Speaker 2: Nigeria and and.
Speaker 4: Uh and I would say a second a second to
Speaker 4: that will be a will linkage between legals on each
Speaker 4: other port hardcore. So those are the two Those are
Speaker 4: the two items that I will say will unlock the
Speaker 4: most value for the country in terms of infrastructure.
Speaker 1: After it is why you want the monetary value just
Speaker 1: just curious.
Speaker 8: Because in Jerry speaking of an infrastructure, if we're very realistic,
Speaker 8: government budgets always limited and in painted and pictures it's
Speaker 8: clear that infrastructure is to be required. But in painting
Speaker 8: and pictures to politicians or ministers, that's assume they were
Speaker 8: doing this properly. Understanding the daily cost, monthly cost of word,
Speaker 8: some sort of QUANTIFI will figure on what leaving or
Speaker 8: infrastructure in certain areas, certain truck codes as they are
Speaker 8: really kind of brings it home for lots of people,
Speaker 8: especially maybe politicians who don't really understand the.
Speaker 2: Importance of it, why it's so immediate, and.
Speaker 8: Also they're we targeted, we targeted infrastructure developments. It's all
Speaker 8: like again when you we you put pretty put value
Speaker 8: and you see it in these studies, infrastructure studies of
Speaker 8: what it means. They take you take the UK for example,
Speaker 8: when you had the High speed and the HS to
Speaker 8: debate that's been going on for ten years, that most
Speaker 8: of the people people supporting that project focused on how
Speaker 8: much value has been unlocked in terms of figures, in
Speaker 8: terms of the economy. Was a contribution to the cities
Speaker 8: that that way was going to pass through? And that's
Speaker 8: what I really got over the line when it was
Speaker 8: being debated. So I just that's why that's probably wanted
Speaker 8: to get a sense if in those figures, if we
Speaker 8: had I know it's not easy days to come across,
Speaker 8: but it paints a picture when you put a sort
Speaker 8: of a monetary value on it, and it brings it home,
Speaker 8: especially because we understand it perstructor is important. But when
Speaker 8: you're looking at hard figures, it makes it easier for
Speaker 8: this idea.
Speaker 2: It should make it easier for this politicians.
Speaker 1: I would say this if I was with the President
Speaker 1: and I was with the Senate and they said, listen,
Speaker 1: how much did this cost? I would say, there, it's nothing,
Speaker 1: no project that's gonna be listed. It's gonna cost you
Speaker 1: less than two billion. When I mean two billion, I
Speaker 1: mean to start, not to complete two you have to
Speaker 1: have two billion funding lined up to start, not to complete.
Speaker 1: It's gonna get get to ten, but have two. That's
Speaker 1: number one. So how when you if you say how
Speaker 1: do you pay for it, You're gonna get into the
Speaker 1: the moraleitis. It's gonna be more of what's the benefit.
Speaker 1: So imagine, if, for instance, we built now a ten
Speaker 1: lane roup because we have a ten lane expressway from
Speaker 1: the paper port, it goes all do with my Papa
Speaker 1: port to a Jota. It stops at Jota. It doesn't
Speaker 1: go left. Ojota is going north, right, then east is
Speaker 1: going to the to the toargate, if you build from
Speaker 1: that target point in Legos a ten lane with a railway,
Speaker 1: two railway lines, five road lines from that point, no Jota,
Speaker 1: you're going all the way to Midi. It was gonna
Speaker 1: go straight through Abuja to mid Degree. Essentially, the income
Speaker 1: you are going to make in the next fifty years
Speaker 1: when your party has left office will be fifty or
Speaker 1: one hundred x what you spent on that road, because
Speaker 1: they're going to be brand new towns created that wouldn't
Speaker 1: have today, Brand new towns created, brand newcommers. Many folks
Speaker 1: in chad ni Je will then use that port because
Speaker 1: it's going to be just trying to shape going the
Speaker 1: expert on the train all the way down. So it's
Speaker 1: a two billion to start, but you'll get the money
Speaker 1: back in fifteen years in v eighty in c and
Speaker 1: all that. That's the way to position it. But why
Speaker 1: they don't do it, it's because going to you're not
Speaker 1: going to rip the rewards in eighty years. If nobody
Speaker 1: wants to do it today. Even if he wants to
Speaker 1: do it today, his folks are gonna tell him, we
Speaker 1: don't get any vote from doing this, because if you
Speaker 1: do it today, it's going to be the party in
Speaker 1: thirty years that will get this. I give good example.
Speaker 1: Log Jonathan did the Legos the Abuja Tona Express standard gauge.
Speaker 1: It was the first commercial standard gage understand in Africa
Speaker 1: subplant Africa. The first the first was the e was
Speaker 1: the attacked by one. But I was not commercial, so
Speaker 1: that was commercial not consumer. But when he built it,
Speaker 1: he built the rails, did everything. He neither just the
Speaker 1: ice on the cake. He left office. But Harry comes
Speaker 1: does the ice in does the commissioning. If you go
Speaker 1: online to then you see the arguments is going on.
Speaker 1: Who builds Abuja to Cardinal Railway. So no politician in Nigeria,
Speaker 1: that's the way they think. Eighty years, I won't get
Speaker 1: the glory. And once you don't think of fifteen twenty
Speaker 1: years is gone. How long was the three Gorges down built?
Speaker 1: The three Gorges downe in China? How long was it build?
Speaker 1: Was it built in ten years? But if you have
Speaker 1: an eighty years cycle where your parties are loses pine
Speaker 1: in four years or you your part can stay in office,
Speaker 1: but you are going to go in eight years, it's
Speaker 1: very difficult how to do infrastructure. Very That's just how
Speaker 1: I'll put that. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you see the evidence today, the long development. It's
Speaker 2: not eighty twenty thirty fifty and.
Speaker 1: You forget about it. Yeah. So it's a great question.
Speaker 1: Is that what you want to ask? Let me gound
Speaker 1: the room, let him.
Speaker 3: Ask my questions.
Speaker 2: Okay, I have some other things to letting.
Speaker 1: Go perfect, All right, let me get a Chuka checker.
Speaker 1: Your handles up, you've got the flow, Please go ahead?
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 10: Believing Carlo, beliving in atonomy now is one day I
Speaker 10: from what you guys have said, we can look at
Speaker 10: the east west through this is the most economic viable
Speaker 10: way and mostly we are hitting on funding. So I
Speaker 10: just want to know, like, because you just said little
Speaker 10: about the eighties plan and the governments are like My
Speaker 10: question just basically goes, how can Nigia attract privacy investment,
Speaker 10: like people put the investment on this infrastructural development looking
Speaker 10: at the kind of the government and the politics being
Speaker 10: played in the country. So to first track the East
Speaker 10: Wish rail line and the road.
Speaker 1: That's my question to America can answer. But let me
Speaker 1: just give me a thing. I think the key idea
Speaker 1: is trust. Nigeria can raise all this money, all this
Speaker 1: money internally and also externally from her dasper. But can
Speaker 1: you imagine which governor do you think can go to
Speaker 1: a meeting of the daspora in say uk or say
Speaker 1: Dallas and say, I want you guys to give me
Speaker 1: a million dollars. If you give million dollars, I'm going
Speaker 1: to build a real way to connect this town to
Speaker 1: this town. And you think, how many governments do you
Speaker 1: think in Niger can go to that meeting, make that
Speaker 1: promise and get a million dollars? Very very few, very
Speaker 1: very few. So if you have a president that the
Speaker 1: people trust, this is Dally to people trust. It's not
Speaker 1: to come on you and say I support you, know,
Speaker 1: to say, if I give this president in my tax
Speaker 1: money from America, from the UK, from China, either I
Speaker 1: give you social investments or I buy an impact bond.
Speaker 1: If you're Nigeria raised an impact bond of say let's
Speaker 1: just say five billion. If you give pull five billion
Speaker 1: a bank in America, they will pay you four percent
Speaker 1: five percent. That's a CD like a bond. Right, Nijer
Speaker 1: will not pay four five percent. Nija currently is paying
Speaker 1: eight percent, so we're paying double. But if I go
Speaker 1: to you, I'm from a halfare right. If I go
Speaker 1: to the pillar for halfare in American and I say, guys,
Speaker 1: I want to build a falling expressway from a half
Speaker 1: fare to a bar, it's going to cost us a
Speaker 1: million dollars. I want you guys to buy my bond.
Speaker 1: This bond only pay you point one percent. It's called
Speaker 1: an impact bond. People will invest not because of the returns,
Speaker 1: but because there's going to be a highway there. It
Speaker 1: will help that will back home. But they will only
Speaker 1: give that money away if they trust me to take
Speaker 1: that money and build that road. So in Nigeria does
Speaker 1: an impact bond to the people that does brand say, guys,
Speaker 1: it's a one percent bond. Everyone investing that one percent
Speaker 1: bond knows they are not doing it because of returns. No,
Speaker 1: you buy the bond in America, you get a tax
Speaker 1: right off. We can organize it that way. But the
Speaker 1: Nigerians have got to trust that the politicians back home
Speaker 1: will invest that money. If there is no trust, then
Speaker 1: you have to go commercial. That's why Nigeria is paying
Speaker 1: eight percent to borrow for thirty years in dollar terms,
Speaker 1: because the Nigerian DASPRU does not trust the Nigerian politicians
Speaker 1: go to America. How much to just China borrowed my dask?
Speaker 1: How much does India Pakistan borrow of my dask? But
Speaker 1: they don't pay eight percent. I'm not going to talk
Speaker 1: about the bonds. But when you have trust the Koreans,
Speaker 1: how they invest back home? The Chinese they have a
Speaker 1: thousand talents program in Chinese where you can go back
Speaker 1: to China and invest your or whatever. That's the problem.
Speaker 1: So there's no trust that people will ask it for commercials.
Speaker 1: Don't I give you an If I know you, you block
Speaker 1: me and you say, my guy, I can see how
Speaker 1: i'll give you. But if I don't know you me
Speaker 1: posited check and at ten percent, that's just it because
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't trust you, so to me,
Speaker 1: I don't know if you If you're taking this question,
Speaker 1: I think it's a great question.
Speaker 4: Yeah. In terms of in terms of funding for big
Speaker 4: infrastructure projects, the.
Speaker 2: Uh, the only.
Speaker 4: The only way that they can get off the ground
Speaker 4: is if the government funds funds the project, even from
Speaker 4: the budget or by taking on launch the the current
Speaker 4: legals the legals Color Highway, they say it's thirty percent
Speaker 4: of funded funded from the budget and there they haven't
Speaker 4: secured loans yet, but supposedly they're going to get seventy
Speaker 4: percent of the rest of the funding from a different
Speaker 4: consortium of international lenders. In terms of bringing private investors
Speaker 4: into infrastructure, the thing with a lot of these infrastructure
Speaker 4: projects is.
Speaker 11: The the value is not it's not like a highly
Speaker 11: profitable adventure because a lot of the value is distributed
Speaker 11: across different sectors, so.
Speaker 2: It's not it's not something that that will be very
Speaker 2: lucrative as a private investor to put your money into.
Speaker 4: So it's going to be difficult to secure privating to
Speaker 4: secure private investment to fund major.
Speaker 2: Infrastructure projects that we need.
Speaker 4: Just because of that reason that they're not the most
Speaker 4: lucrative forms of lucrative avenues for investment. So the government
Speaker 4: has to do the heavy lifting and funding those projects.
Speaker 3: And if you look at Nigeria in terms.
Speaker 4: Of all the major projects that we have, they've all
Speaker 4: been they've all been government funded because if we wait
Speaker 4: for private investment is never going to happen because the
Speaker 4: amount of money that you need to do it is
Speaker 4: a lot.
Speaker 2: And the thing is you.
Speaker 4: Need to do it quickly because the longer it takes.
Speaker 4: So if you kind of say, oh you're going to
Speaker 4: wait to stretch out the fund, the longer it takes
Speaker 4: to execute, the more expensive it gets. So it's just
Speaker 4: it's just more efficient for the men to even get
Speaker 4: it from.
Speaker 2: The budget or get secure arm.
Speaker 4: Government loans and build a project as quickly as possible
Speaker 4: and that way you start getting the benefits of that
Speaker 4: infrastructure to the economy from there.
Speaker 1: I wanted to lead me that with nias have to
Speaker 1: understand this this right, I think the the mindset has
Speaker 1: to change. You know, when we had oil in the seventies,
Speaker 1: the government built everything. We had the industrial Plan one, two,
Speaker 1: and three, where governments built universities, express roads, railways, power,
Speaker 1: and I tel that's the wrong model. You cannot develop
Speaker 1: a country with governments spending. It's not being done ever.
Speaker 1: Go around the world. The rule of the government is
Speaker 1: to create the atmosphere for private capital to build up infrastructure.
Speaker 1: So if you look at the United States, who build
Speaker 1: the railways, who build the roads, who build that, The
Speaker 1: government will say we're going to do I five. But
Speaker 1: as a building that I five, the private sector is
Speaker 1: coming to build restaurants on the I five, hotels, motels
Speaker 1: on the I five. That's what makes that project bankable.
Speaker 1: So the government can easily go borrow money from the
Speaker 1: bank and say, hey, want to build a new express
Speaker 1: road at a lower interest rate. Because the bank seat
Speaker 1: that wants to build an express road, that road is
Speaker 1: bankable because there are industries on both sides. So the
Speaker 1: government's rule we same with states, same with local government.
Speaker 1: Your job is not to take your budget and build
Speaker 1: the road. Your job is to take that budget and
Speaker 1: act as a guarante tour either if giving sovereign guarantees
Speaker 1: or seed funding. If you look at it that way,
Speaker 1: you can build more roads it's not to say that
Speaker 1: you can build more with less. No, it's one plus one.
Speaker 1: It's a cost to eleven. You take your farc. You
Speaker 1: tell the private sector anyone that comes to build a road,
Speaker 1: who will pay you? And if we don't pay you,
Speaker 1: we're going to use a FARC and we're going to
Speaker 1: keep you to the CPN to give you a sovereign guarantee.
Speaker 1: So if Joe Begger knows that if they come to
Speaker 1: your state, they are going to get paid. Because they
Speaker 1: are going to get paid, they reduce their cost of
Speaker 1: lending or cost of borrowing because they know that once
Speaker 1: when they deploy to that state and they build one
Speaker 1: hundred kilometers or whatever, they will get paid. So once
Speaker 1: they take that away, that on certainty goes away. They
Speaker 1: cost bar mile in your state falls. So you have
Speaker 1: to use that and when I just have to get
Speaker 1: lend work to pay tolls. If you don't pay tolls,
Speaker 1: that's advertising. You know, you can build the road and
Speaker 1: say only the guys that paid to the government would
Speaker 1: advertise on both on the wrong way. Emptying is building
Speaker 1: in Ugo on a chart to Inugo Express was empty
Speaker 1: and this building is not the government and emplane is
Speaker 1: getting their money back from tax breaks. So it's the
Speaker 1: same way the government has got to operate. The government
Speaker 1: alone cannot build roads anywhere. So copy what Eterne is doing.
Speaker 1: You go back to your localugumentary. You tell you're the
Speaker 1: biggest guy in you look outment area. Maybe it's a bar,
Speaker 1: maybe it's a manufacturing company. And the laws already there
Speaker 1: say if you build this road, there will be absolutely
Speaker 1: no taxes for you for the next five years. That's
Speaker 1: the way we have to think, because god, man, how
Speaker 1: much is our budget? Were on a deficit budget, guys.
Speaker 1: I don't give depressive but one hundred percent of the
Speaker 1: red venues you get from crude oil and gas, one
Speaker 1: hundred percent goes to pay salaries, pensions and allowances of
Speaker 1: only federal workers one hundred percent. So any money you
Speaker 1: see being spent on infrastructure, on being spent on death
Speaker 1: service is all borrowed one hundred percent. There is no
Speaker 1: We're not an oil presentation. Leave that on a side.
Speaker 1: Just pack that one a side. We've got to survive
Speaker 1: on growing the economy and encouraging more private sector guys
Speaker 1: to come in and then invest in the country. Shake shake,
Speaker 1: c You've got the floor. Tonami is here, go ahead,
Speaker 1: shake that you could be analog.
Speaker 12: Okay, hi came and Tonami and the very person here.
Speaker 12: So mine is more like on the question side because
Speaker 12: to an extent sometimes I have a bit like lost
Speaker 12: to talk to why it's certain things don't happen. But
Speaker 12: I'm just trying to because I've been following Tonami for
Speaker 12: a while and I know his very good at transportation.
Speaker 12: So you did mention to me you would rather invest
Speaker 12: in the chokeholds. And then in terms of when you
Speaker 12: talk about the river Ritan transportation, but and then Carlo
Speaker 12: also mentioned in terms of going from the far west
Speaker 12: to the far east side. But my thought is if
Speaker 12: we're looking at connecting the land and in that town
Speaker 12: what you call what you call him like River Nigier
Speaker 12: and the River beme Axists, would the ports around the
Speaker 12: delta and not been much more viable?
Speaker 3: What's something I know that yes.
Speaker 12: Because they are very they get they need a lot
Speaker 12: of dredging and maintenance and all of that. But would
Speaker 12: that not be a favorable point because from there we
Speaker 12: can be able to access a lot more in the
Speaker 12: sense that one you can connect the real lines on
Speaker 12: both sides, and you can also be able to now
Speaker 12: use badges to be able to convey more inland and
Speaker 12: upland to the notes and all of that other places.
Speaker 3: So I just wanted to know about that.
Speaker 12: Why is that not something that's been considered and considering
Speaker 12: the fact that these places were part puts in the
Speaker 12: past and that then.
Speaker 3: Also I want you to just understand in terms of from.
Speaker 12: Rail lines in Nigeria, what would you recommend in terms
Speaker 12: of currently I know that there's a worry Cogi States
Speaker 12: and line that has already been done in terms of
Speaker 12: linking that because I conly believe that there's a whole
Speaker 12: lot of economic activity happening the southeast and if we
Speaker 12: talk about one of the easiest points, will that not
Speaker 12: be an easy access to be able to connect that
Speaker 12: real line and connecting const that particular rail line also
Speaker 12: is not too far from a port line. I think
Speaker 12: it's the Cocopa line, so within the Delta State access.
Speaker 12: So I just wanted to see what's your picture in
Speaker 12: terms of Delta States being a significant pots investment and
Speaker 12: what do you think in terms of costing If you
Speaker 12: just have an idea, Thanks for.
Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you shape let me go over the first
Speaker 4: one in terms.
Speaker 2: Of why.
Speaker 4: Why we don't build a or use the Worry access
Speaker 4: as a point of entry to serve the hinter land.
Speaker 2: The issue reports is that they require.
Speaker 3: It's all, they require a lot of infrastructure.
Speaker 4: I mean in order to utilize to maximize the utilization
Speaker 4: of that infrastructure.
Speaker 2: You need.
Speaker 4: A really large flow of traffic to justify that investment.
Speaker 4: So in West Africa. And the thing is Nigeria is
Speaker 4: not an island, it's it's in the West African port ecosystem.
Speaker 2: In West Africa. We currently have.
Speaker 4: Before the Laky Deep Seaport became operational, we had the
Speaker 4: two main we had. The first modern transcriptment center was
Speaker 4: the Port of Loma and then the Port of Tama
Speaker 4: in Ghana opened and then Leaky Deep Seaport opened. Currently
Speaker 4: they're building they're building up port a new deep seaport
Speaker 4: in Senegal.
Speaker 2: But traffic to West Africa you'll have. It's not just
Speaker 2: it's not just Nigeria. All those sports.
Speaker 4: When major shipping lines are sending goods to West Africa,
Speaker 4: they pick the point where there is infrastructure and they
Speaker 4: can what you call it return or offloadership as quickly
Speaker 4: as possible.
Speaker 3: Offload the cargo as quickly as possible, so.
Speaker 4: In and then when you have there are only so
Speaker 4: many places that you can build those you can't be
Speaker 4: Lone Port has simply one point six or one point
Speaker 4: I can't remember this as close to if it's close
Speaker 4: to two million capacity, about the same capacity with Tema
Speaker 4: and Maki Dipsyport. Currently the Phase one is about one
Speaker 4: point six million TEUs in terms of container traffic and
Speaker 4: they can expand it to two point.
Speaker 2: Six or something like that.
Speaker 4: The current demand in terms of TuS from Nigeria is
Speaker 4: less than what the expanded capacity of Leky dip Syport is.
Speaker 4: So if you're going to build another port in Nigeria,
Speaker 4: it's not going to get any traffic because Lecky dip
Speaker 4: Syport can handle all that traffic. The way we have
Speaker 4: to look about look at it is we use Leky
Speaker 4: Deep Saport as a transshipment point and then.
Speaker 3: Serve all the smaller ports along the coast.
Speaker 4: There is no the fact that the big cargo ships
Speaker 4: are going to Leggy doesn't mean that the other parts
Speaker 4: of Nigeria excluded. Every part of Nigeria benefits from them
Speaker 4: because we get a more efficient shipping system. In terms
Speaker 4: of the second question about the linking, in linking the
Speaker 4: worry ettack by rail line to report and using that
Speaker 4: as an access point that the Worry to Attack by
Speaker 4: line is it's a very I always say.
Speaker 2: That's an old friend line.
Speaker 3: That is because the amount of population that.
Speaker 2: It serves, it's not It does not justify the investment.
Speaker 4: So if we're going to spend on building a rail
Speaker 4: infrastructure connecting into a port, that is not where we should.
Speaker 2: Be spending spending the money on.
Speaker 4: Because actually have pointed out here we have limited resources.
Speaker 4: We have to put the money where we get the
Speaker 4: most value out of it.
Speaker 2: So putting the money where there's value.
Speaker 4: The currently the Worry port can be served by barges.
Speaker 4: It does not have to be the main entry point
Speaker 4: because we are may have that infrastructure in place, and
Speaker 4: the best thing that we can do in terms of
Speaker 4: utilizing our resources is maximizing the utilization or optimizing that
Speaker 4: piece of infrastructure than spreading and defusing that diffusing those
Speaker 4: resources to other areas and getting coordinating with barges to
Speaker 4: tranship cargo from leky that should be a priority. And
Speaker 4: in terms of the in terms of the real right now,
Speaker 4: I say the worry to extapelya railines should be closed down.
Speaker 4: Operating that reiline is a waste of money. All the
Speaker 4: trains should be moved without to Lagos about them, and
Speaker 4: that line should be shut down.
Speaker 2: What if our passengers are.
Speaker 4: Being carried up on that line right now can be
Speaker 4: served by buses. There are currently no cargo being carried
Speaker 4: on the line and it's not serving any utility.
Speaker 2: At this point in time.
Speaker 4: So we have to make sure that we are put
Speaker 4: in our resources where we get the most value. Are
Speaker 4: not just because we need to put this piece of
Speaker 4: infrastructure in a place.
Speaker 1: I mean, I agree with you, but you're gonna get
Speaker 1: a flaky I mean you use the right word attack
Speaker 1: bent to warries an off fundrail. Remember, guys, this was
Speaker 1: the reel that was built for Joao Kuta Steel. When
Speaker 1: our Jao Kuta was being built, there was no delta state.
Speaker 1: There was no delta state. This was a port that
Speaker 1: was built so that they could take the iron ore
Speaker 1: to attack me, to get the beatrified, and then take
Speaker 1: it back to our job because it had nothing to
Speaker 1: do with moving people. But we wanted a quick political wind,
Speaker 1: so we basically went to a line. That line was
Speaker 1: built in nineteen eighty three. That line attack By was
Speaker 1: built nineteen eighties by Julius Berger. We went to that
Speaker 1: same rail line, then we built the stations and then
Speaker 1: we launched the train so we could get the political victory.
Speaker 1: But it's a waste, doesn't add anything. Like you said,
Speaker 1: if you put a bustle in their ber artiling that
Speaker 1: you can move people cheaper and faster. But I don't,
Speaker 1: I MA me ask the question. I know a lot.
Speaker 1: A while back, Julius Burger was making presentations to the
Speaker 1: treas Nature and Julius Burger said, if you import a
Speaker 1: container from europe Land the container in I think it
Speaker 1: was legos or worry, they would take it from worry
Speaker 1: to a nature. For you, this is just beggar, and
Speaker 1: I think it's still up. I'm not sure I put
Speaker 1: took them up on that. But Beggar made that problem
Speaker 1: that they would take the continents from worry tour nature.
Speaker 1: What about it if we simply put the real line
Speaker 1: from worried to nature, so we can have the badge
Speaker 1: I eat the bags and also have the railways to
Speaker 1: go from worry to don't solve the issue. So we
Speaker 1: moved to Lucky Deep Sea Port Lucky diep Syport mostly
Speaker 1: by transship to Worry Port. Then Worry Report put on
Speaker 1: a rail line from Worry to Nature or a bage
Speaker 1: from Worry to Nature. So you cut off the legosy
Speaker 1: by the next press road. You don't have to put
Speaker 1: continents on the road anymore. The roads can last longer,
Speaker 1: doesn't at least just solve the problem.
Speaker 2: For so it real lined from Mori to Onnja.
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, so that's it falls into the same the
Speaker 4: same category.
Speaker 2: The Anita can.
Speaker 4: Be served by barges directly from Lecky. So if you're
Speaker 4: going to put another interface, uh, because transhipment costs.
Speaker 2: Both time and money to the cargo.
Speaker 4: If you're going to put another interface of transhipment is
Speaker 4: going to increase the cost of moving that cargo. So
Speaker 4: just taking the taking the cargo from Lecky straight to Anita,
Speaker 4: it's already. That's already the solution in terms of getting
Speaker 4: the cargo to Anita without going via the legals on
Speaker 4: NITA Expressway. The problem I don't know how. I haven't
Speaker 4: looked into the details of how the logistics or how
Speaker 4: n PA handles transhipping, because I know from past.
Speaker 1: It's not a.
Speaker 2: Smooth it's not a smooth experience.
Speaker 4: So if the NPA can work with the shippers on
Speaker 4: streamlining that process of moving moving.
Speaker 3: Of transhipping goods, that would be a major.
Speaker 4: That would be a major boost in terms of cargo
Speaker 4: movement from to and from ports or the entire country
Speaker 4: in general.
Speaker 1: Well, worry to worry too, fair Bardge is viable in
Speaker 1: your opinion, Yeah.
Speaker 4: Worry to worry too on EAHA is viable there bad
Speaker 4: via barges and also lucky to on HR as well.
Speaker 1: Gotcha quick one shake? You had a quick one. On
Speaker 1: if I move to the next person, shake, you had
Speaker 1: a quick one.
Speaker 3: So I just wanted to bring it so something else.
Speaker 12: I like what you said and the fact that I
Speaker 12: let this deepsy post kind of cat out to our
Speaker 12: place in the West African corridor and also the transcripment line.
Speaker 12: And I like the fact that you also have resed
Speaker 12: the fact that the budgies can move directly to an
Speaker 12: h sports at the moment where we don't know how
Speaker 12: viable MP is dealing with that. But now why I
Speaker 12: want to bring this, I want to bring this home
Speaker 12: in the sense of our current reality where we're beginning
Speaker 12: to see a must regional centric kind of governance coming
Speaker 12: up by the day. In that kind of conversation that
Speaker 12: most people like what Carlo has said in terms of
Speaker 12: for people to invest, they need a level of confidence
Speaker 12: in the leadership and all of that. And you're beginning
Speaker 12: to see more people moving towards a more regional centric
Speaker 12: kind of wanting to invest in something that has to
Speaker 12: benefit their own region. Where you within the Southern corridors,
Speaker 12: you have the two regions, and we take deep sea
Speaker 12: ports line in one region and everybody trying to say, no,
Speaker 12: we want a piece of the pie. How won will
Speaker 12: be your proposal to solving that kind of problem across
Speaker 12: the regions to be able to cut that lead this
Speaker 12: kind of group.
Speaker 3: The problem.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for that. My solution to that will be
Speaker 2: just to tell everybody to get real. That's it, just
Speaker 2: get real, because the.
Speaker 3: You, in terms of.
Speaker 4: The benefit that we get from a large population from
Speaker 4: the same quality, you cannot you cannot get that benefit
Speaker 4: from fragmenting transport investment investment based on regional regional politics.
Speaker 2: Because if you.
Speaker 4: Say, oh, oh all the ports are going to leave us, Oh,
Speaker 4: we need our own port in the southeast and then
Speaker 4: you go spend that money. That money could have been
Speaker 4: better spent on building the linkages to to evacuate the
Speaker 4: cargo from Lecky to whatever region that you want to
Speaker 4: get to. Because yes, I really see all the regional
Speaker 4: tend whatever regional tension is, is superficial, and I don't
Speaker 4: think focusing using that.
Speaker 2: To guide investment. I don't think that's a wise strategy
Speaker 2: because you still have to.
Speaker 4: Spend that money, and then why not spend the money in.
Speaker 2: A way where you get more value out of it.
Speaker 4: So because it's going to building a new port in
Speaker 4: other regions because of regionalization, it's not really we're not
Speaker 4: going to get much better.
Speaker 2: We're just going to.
Speaker 4: Have money parted and there's no value coming.
Speaker 1: Out, unless, of course, you basically say we're going to
Speaker 1: regional government. Then of course that governance then supersed the
Speaker 1: economics of it. Like the point again is if you
Speaker 1: are going to be in Nigeria, then you've got to
Speaker 1: look at the mass of Nigeria and the markets in Nigeria.
Speaker 1: So then you have to work. You know, you go
Speaker 1: to work with the aman you have, so essentially you
Speaker 1: connect those clusters and you get the most benefit. So,
Speaker 1: like you said, the problem in Legos port is a
Speaker 1: papa to get out for our papa, port out of
Speaker 1: our Papa is nearly a nightmare. I think if we
Speaker 1: can build a real line from the port of our
Speaker 1: Papa itself and take it to someoney be near or
Speaker 1: more more way just out of Legos, and then from
Speaker 1: there it can then be shipped very real to the
Speaker 1: that would just solve all this. That's to me the
Speaker 1: easiest thing. The real line any any any port I
Speaker 1: see in America has a rail line. Any port I see,
Speaker 1: I've never seen the port without the rail line here.
Speaker 1: But it's if we had a real line a papa
Speaker 1: that will take these goods out, we'll be talking about
Speaker 1: trans shipping a container to on the on the Atlantic,
Speaker 1: but it is what it is.
Speaker 3: Time.
Speaker 1: Let's if you guys in here, Daniel go ahead, please.
Speaker 13: Daniel, Yeah, thank you. It took the last words from
Speaker 13: my mom. But let me let me cite some example
Speaker 13: and then add some a few questions. My first question
Speaker 13: is around the concessionary project, the head Dam project that
Speaker 13: the last eight years if government worked on that had
Speaker 13: a couple.
Speaker 3: Of highways handed over to some private.
Speaker 13: Guys and strong, strong, strong consults.
Speaker 3: You know what's happening with that? We are we on that?
Speaker 3: Why are we not seeing results?
Speaker 13: You mentioned it empty and working on and on each
Speaker 13: other applied that road almost every other week, and it's
Speaker 13: still it's still not twenty percent completed.
Speaker 3: You know what's happening with that?
Speaker 13: And I'm going to ask a question, what do you
Speaker 13: think is the ability of doing an inland port in
Speaker 13: the city, maybe somewhere such that there's a twelve kilimitars
Speaker 13: railway that comes from protacot Port into about a sects
Speaker 13: such that it can actually take you know, the Enego,
Speaker 13: the protact inegal railway you know at some inter change
Speaker 13: goes to the north, so that if someone is bringing
Speaker 13: something to places like an intern ny and about also
Speaker 13: because of exports.
Speaker 2: Too, so that it's I know that.
Speaker 13: Any biocronomicity had full destination for origin in lab port
Speaker 13: license so that if we want to export to the
Speaker 13: West African coast, the Central African coast, we can actually
Speaker 13: put it on the rail the twelve kilimeters rail to
Speaker 13: Protacto that it goes out. I know the value of
Speaker 13: the Lucky deep Sea port. What the centralizes now economy.
Speaker 13: I'm thinking in terms of economic descentralization, but I know
Speaker 13: there might be.
Speaker 3: Stronger arguements around that.
Speaker 13: But you know, because if I want to export and
Speaker 13: I need to put it on the road to go
Speaker 13: to legos first before exports, it's discouraging and my enjoy
Speaker 13: is not really getting a lot out of our exports
Speaker 13: because because there is no structured export system, some people
Speaker 13: now use the back doors to export.
Speaker 14: I know the quantity of show that leaves about, you know,
Speaker 14: to came room to lead so many West African states,
Speaker 14: but those guys go through dark roots and not strong
Speaker 14: part of that money goes to government.
Speaker 3: Okay, so what's happening with our concession?
Speaker 13: And happen this a concession solved this road problem as
Speaker 13: we talked about it with the route you discrossed, and
Speaker 13: what can in land ports do for us?
Speaker 3: And then US.
Speaker 13: Railway because I see the proposition.
Speaker 3: In mad was they were going to have.
Speaker 13: A railway line that moves anything that is destination and
Speaker 13: in BacT that drops important called the railway to their
Speaker 13: inland port and then everything happens at that point if
Speaker 13: we have closet off that across regions problem.
Speaker 1: I think the points me. So you're basically asking critically,
Speaker 1: why we so just a simple question, photonomic and basically
Speaker 1: I get the backer. Just do that simple question. He
Speaker 1: was off. Just make sure he heard you. He just
Speaker 1: just added him back. So what was the simple question
Speaker 1: for him? None of his back? That's Turnamy was go.
Speaker 13: Ahead, Well, okay, First, what's happening with the concessions or
Speaker 13: the concession heading my concession that happened for thirteen routes?
Speaker 3: I guess ye, where are we.
Speaker 13: On that and what's happening and how can that improve
Speaker 13: the major road infrastructure? And then having in land points
Speaker 13: as against having so multiple deep ports, having in love
Speaker 13: port where you know, if.
Speaker 3: Something is full destination.
Speaker 15: A particular in land port, it just gets the water
Speaker 15: and then road rail.
Speaker 1: Okay to me that I think, I'm not sure. Two questions.
Speaker 1: What's happened to the the tax I think it's the
Speaker 1: tax credit concessions where you build the infrastructure and the
Speaker 1: government gives you back the money if you're a tax
Speaker 1: credits number one. Number two is basically saying why can
Speaker 1: we have more inland ports?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 1: We have deep sa ports. I'm not sure if he's
Speaker 1: saying it should they should cancel themselves out. But it's
Speaker 1: asking really what's the viability of having more inland port.
Speaker 1: There's local ja, there's a nich in regards to if
Speaker 1: we're having a deep sea port in len In Calaba.
Speaker 1: So go ahead, thank you.
Speaker 4: The So for those for those questions regarding the.
Speaker 2: Concessions, I haven't.
Speaker 4: I haven't followed those in detail in detail, so I don't.
Speaker 4: I don't know what's going on with with those concessions
Speaker 4: on how they're being executed.
Speaker 2: But in terms of the in terms of the viability
Speaker 2: of re report those.
Speaker 4: I would say those are actually those are actually useful.
Speaker 4: We don't have to look at it as.
Speaker 3: One or the other.
Speaker 2: Like we need we need especially for like industrial output
Speaker 2: when you have a.
Speaker 4: Chemicals different other industrial.
Speaker 3: Activity that need.
Speaker 4: That need water access for efficient movements of their of
Speaker 4: their cargo. For example, you have the of the flour
Speaker 4: mills are always sighted at the ports down with a
Speaker 4: flower at bond Bua at port hardcore because they can
Speaker 4: get the shipments of flour directly at the directly at
Speaker 4: the port and those don't have to go to truck
Speaker 4: go via trucks. Then they process it into whatever cereal or.
Speaker 2: Noodles or whatever part of those products, and so those
Speaker 2: those are those are necessary. But in terms of and
Speaker 2: also even in terms of contained container traffic, the thing with.
Speaker 4: The thing with the deep sea port and linking those
Speaker 4: deep sea deeps, linking the deep saport to different regions
Speaker 4: is that's just the way modern shippers ship. If you
Speaker 4: have cargo destined for APA, it's not going to go
Speaker 4: directly from Guangzhou to Aba, It's going to go from
Speaker 4: Guangzhou to a major transhipment center and then usually and
Speaker 4: then it will be transhipped to Aba. So for example,
Speaker 4: if we have cargo destined for Anita, that cargo will
Speaker 4: go from wherever's coming from Shanghai, Guangzhou to LeKi and
Speaker 4: then transhipped. The cargo will be broken down. Because for
Speaker 4: shippers they need to ship they get they have, they're
Speaker 4: more efficient when they ship a lot of cargo at once.
Speaker 2: So there's no.
Speaker 4: Direct shipment that you order direct shipment to every single port.
Speaker 4: The port system in the world currently operates in a
Speaker 4: hubnspoke system. So whatever cargo you're going to getting another
Speaker 4: part of the country if that place is not a
Speaker 4: high demand center for right now in Nigeria. Legos is
Speaker 4: the demand center and that's regardless if you take out
Speaker 4: all the cargo.
Speaker 2: That's going everywhere else.
Speaker 4: Because all the manufacturing in the country is happening in Legos.
Speaker 4: That is the demand center, so all the cargo is
Speaker 4: going to go there. So all we have So what
Speaker 4: we have to do is to make use of that
Speaker 4: node as an entry point because if you create another node,
Speaker 4: is there's no shepherd that's going to center ship directly
Speaker 4: to those places.
Speaker 2: It's it's it doesn't really.
Speaker 4: The idea of this decentralization.
Speaker 2: It sounds good in it sounds good when you think
Speaker 2: about it.
Speaker 4: But in practice, most ports around the world operate in
Speaker 4: the hub and spoke. If it is a major port,
Speaker 4: then it's going to be a transhipment center. If it
Speaker 4: is a minor demand center, then it's going to get
Speaker 4: this cargo that's trendship from a nearby port. And that's
Speaker 4: just the way the system, the shipping system is, and
Speaker 4: we just have to build an infrastructure.
Speaker 2: To make use of it, make use of that if
Speaker 2: that's the way we can.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and let me just let me just add this right,
Speaker 1: so you know, the private sector looks at P and
Speaker 1: L profit and loss revenues. If you are the governor
Speaker 1: of a state in the south south southeast and you
Speaker 1: desira port, my advice to you is to build one
Speaker 1: yourself and then use that as a template to show
Speaker 1: the private sector that it works. Then the private sector
Speaker 1: will follow your lead. So to answer your question directly,
Speaker 1: that is, should we have an inland port. Yes, nobody
Speaker 1: has stopped you delta anambera. They can build an inland port.
Speaker 1: Is a federal inland port in onnitcha right now. Not
Speaker 1: to stop an ambrastic government from building a container port,
Speaker 1: very very modern only containers with lots of computers. They
Speaker 1: can be controlled twenty four to seven. They can partner
Speaker 1: the governor is very very close to the president to
Speaker 1: discuss with him. So badges can come all the way
Speaker 1: to a new port in the number they can offload,
Speaker 1: and then it can happen. It will be a good
Speaker 1: vote winner for you. Right So if you do that,
Speaker 1: the pravaces that will watch you if it makes money,
Speaker 1: they would invest in it because in the end, no
Speaker 1: matter how good the idea is, money has got to
Speaker 1: build the idea. I give you a good example. There
Speaker 1: was no airport in the whole of the southeast apart
Speaker 1: from ugu Emo State. Before back then it was just
Speaker 1: a number and Emo state. So Emo states that the
Speaker 1: south is said to build a new airport in the
Speaker 1: Emo State, and they didn't wait for the federal governmental.
Speaker 1: They got together, they did gofund me, they did crowdfunding
Speaker 1: and they built an airport in Emo. Now the feder
Speaker 1: going to taking over the airport is expanded. It's now
Speaker 1: more more than what the money followed the business. If
Speaker 1: you don't show the private sector that there's business, they
Speaker 1: need to say there's business. No the chair, but how
Speaker 1: many containers will actually move if you invest all that
Speaker 1: capital in dollar terms to build a port. So if
Speaker 1: if the beggar begger MD had said, hey, on a chair,
Speaker 1: you can do transhipments if on a chair, taking that
Speaker 1: guy up on his offer, I'm not sure why or
Speaker 1: why they did not, And we are seeing one hundred
Speaker 1: containers every month. Oh wow, somebody's gonna go and put
Speaker 1: the port on the chair because the business case is
Speaker 1: now being made. So my advice is in the end,
Speaker 1: start it even if it's small, and show the private
Speaker 1: sector there's theres this is viable and once they see
Speaker 1: it's viable. The business will follow. If you wait for
Speaker 1: the government, it's not gonna happen. That's my way, that's
Speaker 1: my point of saying. We've had that port in Eacha
Speaker 1: for a long while. I haven't seen it boom.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: I know it's a company that moves tiles from a
Speaker 1: nature to Niger State, but I'm not seeing lots of
Speaker 1: containers there. And what is hard in getting a badge
Speaker 1: and then taking the torture containers from legos there. It's
Speaker 1: not cheaper, but it hasn't boomed. And if it's not booming,
Speaker 1: that's a big red flag to an investor to say,
Speaker 1: why is in this port making it? If it's not
Speaker 1: making it, why should I invest more in it? So
Speaker 1: if you know why it's not making it, let me know,
Speaker 1: then we can sort of understand the next steps. Time.
Speaker 1: Let me get alien alien X here. Thanks for waitningess.
Speaker 1: I appreciate you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, thank you very much.
Speaker 16: Cal Please, I would want to push back on some
Speaker 16: things that you have said that if it's okay, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 16: so I head. Thanks for also enlightening nots and telling
Speaker 16: us you know that it appeared to worry real line
Speaker 16: was done because of the adjacutar still and everything. But
Speaker 16: I noticed you guys of the opinion that we should
Speaker 16: not that it's not really valuable, and you do not
Speaker 16: think that it's something we should keep on running. Well,
Speaker 16: for me, I've been I've used that line and I
Speaker 16: even used it recently, and I can tell you that
Speaker 16: there are a lot of people that use that real
Speaker 16: The only issue I think that we are having there
Speaker 16: is something that I feel you guys need to I
Speaker 16: really want to also ask questions on its maintenance. And
Speaker 16: I don't know if any of you have gone through
Speaker 16: that real line and the coaches over the the inner
Speaker 16: could is a lot of everything that is there has
Speaker 16: been bastardized. Some of them I don't know, broken, not
Speaker 16: properly maintained. The aces, some coaches ases are not working,
Speaker 16: some of the facilities not working. I remember using it
Speaker 16: recently and some of the real lines, when you're passing
Speaker 16: through some of the places there, you will see they're
Speaker 16: reducing the speed and they're saying that they're reducing the
Speaker 16: speed because of vandalization and so on and so forth.
Speaker 3: I will remember one.
Speaker 16: Time after boarding it, it took us over an hour
Speaker 16: before the train started moving because they said the train
Speaker 16: was having some issues and they had to fix it quickly,
Speaker 16: and so on and so forth. But I can tell
Speaker 16: you that every time I've passed through that place for
Speaker 16: passengers using it, I think there is a lot of volume.
Speaker 16: There are a lot of people going through it and everything.
Speaker 16: Number two is that I did a quick search and
Speaker 16: you can for check me. Plea is China doesn't really
Speaker 16: make gains, and I know I'm not supposed to be
Speaker 16: caught in China boards because China is more advanced than O.
Speaker 16: Sport check theirrail lines most of times.
Speaker 3: Every year, almost every year.
Speaker 16: I think it was just recently they started making gains
Speaker 16: on their reil lines. They've been making losses, losses, losses.
Speaker 16: But because they know that this is these are very
Speaker 16: very important facilities and infrastructure for the people, they have
Speaker 16: been investing, investing, investing. So I just wanted to say that. Now,
Speaker 16: my question to Tsonami is very simple, what are the
Speaker 16: possibilities of private the private sector investing in all of distance?
Speaker 16: Because I've been in one or two meetings where people
Speaker 16: like the transport systems, like those bosses A facing actually ABC,
Speaker 16: ABC and some others.
Speaker 3: What do they call that other boss line.
Speaker 16: Again, I've been trying to see how they can talk
Speaker 16: to the government to invest in need to also try
Speaker 16: and see how they can own coaches and run some
Speaker 16: of these things there. What are the divisibilities on some
Speaker 16: of these private investors going into it? Do you think
Speaker 16: it would be wise for private investors actually running the
Speaker 16: rules instead of n r CEO Nigeria with commission or
Speaker 16: something running it and other things? And to what can
Speaker 16: we do to you know, improve the maintenance culture of
Speaker 16: the existing real life that we have.
Speaker 3: Correctly, are you the microphon?
Speaker 2: Now?
Speaker 3: I still have more about you the microphone? Thank you?
Speaker 1: Do you want to go first?
Speaker 4: Okay, yeah, yeah, I think yeah, yeah, Thanks Thanks all x.
Speaker 2: SO for the first one regarding the uh.
Speaker 1: Wait you're talking it talks about what to attack, but
Speaker 1: he's sort of pushing back on the fact that listen,
Speaker 1: we're saying it's not really commercial. Also, he's sney case
Speaker 1: of China is building it for the future. They're not
Speaker 1: looking at today's profits, but they're looking at it tomorrow
Speaker 1: and all that that's for worry attack by So he's saying,
Speaker 1: why can't we just invest in upgrading it so that
Speaker 1: become more viable that's a special issue in theory attack
Speaker 1: by then, of course, the second one is talking about
Speaker 1: the private sector kind of coming and run this thing.
Speaker 1: So it's better productivity to these two questions.
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, yeah, thanks for quite Fryan. So for the
Speaker 4: worry tappy route. In regards to China funding funding their
Speaker 4: infrastructure projects, a lot of those projects are are heavily
Speaker 4: planned and they are distributed based on.
Speaker 3: Based on resource.
Speaker 4: Yes, they have fringe projects that are done for done
Speaker 4: for political reasons, but majority of the of the real
Speaker 4: projects in China are funded. And also the poor projects
Speaker 4: are funded based on the amount of demand for those
Speaker 4: for those places, Yes, they also project demand, but.
Speaker 2: They build, but they those projections are based on based
Speaker 2: on the existing reality.
Speaker 4: Now in Nigeria, if we want to say worry type way,
Speaker 4: if we want to keep spending money the amount of
Speaker 4: money the Nigeria, we don't have that much money to
Speaker 4: spend on infrastructure.
Speaker 2: For something like they real line, it needs to have
Speaker 2: a ton of traffic.
Speaker 4: On it to get the most utility out of it.
Speaker 4: The current population. Along the worry type of yes, you
Speaker 4: might go to a train station and the train is full,
Speaker 4: but that doesn't matter what matters is how many writers
Speaker 4: that train serves annually.
Speaker 2: If you you might.
Speaker 4: Have full trains, but then if you have service, if
Speaker 4: you have trained service once a day or twice in
Speaker 4: a day, it doesn't amount. It doesn't amount too much.
Speaker 4: So the trains might be full, but that doesn't mean
Speaker 4: that there is a lot of ridership on that particular corridor.
Speaker 4: And that is one So right now, the population distribution
Speaker 4: on that corridor is so small. The amount of investment
Speaker 4: is going to take to get that ridership up to
Speaker 4: the level where it is justifiable, it's going to be immense.
Speaker 4: And in a country like Nigeria, instead of we could
Speaker 4: spend that money, yes and say it's for the future,
Speaker 4: but then there's the opportunity costs. Because we spent that
Speaker 4: money on this corridor.
Speaker 2: We've neglected neglected the.
Speaker 4: Corridors that have more potential in terms of in terms
Speaker 4: of ridership. So that is why I always I'm always
Speaker 4: advocating for removing our focus on the Worry attack Way
Speaker 4: railway as a passenger railway as a freight railway because
Speaker 4: it right now, in terms of the network, the Nigerian
Speaker 4: network system, it does not add any value that is
Speaker 4: reasonable to to the network. So so yeah, so that's
Speaker 4: that's for the for the worry attack way. In terms
Speaker 4: of private investments coming into infrastructure projects, it like for
Speaker 4: the for the buses. For the buses, it makes it
Speaker 4: makes sense. It is viable because it's more distributed, but
Speaker 4: for real it is not viable because.
Speaker 2: It the if we say we want.
Speaker 4: To bring private investors to run and operate rail is
Speaker 4: going they're going to run into the ground. That's the
Speaker 4: same process that've been repeated everywhere across the world where
Speaker 4: you're bringing private investors, privatize the.
Speaker 2: Railways and then they run it into the ground.
Speaker 4: Because it's just the incentives within the nature of rail
Speaker 4: is that you're not able to.
Speaker 2: Capture all the benefits.
Speaker 4: So if you're not able to capture all the benefits,
Speaker 4: then it's not going to be a profit profitable venture
Speaker 4: for a private investor. Yes, the Chinese government when they
Speaker 4: build rails.
Speaker 2: They have they have operational losses. The government can the
Speaker 2: government can stomach those losses because.
Speaker 3: The government can recoup the benefits.
Speaker 4: In other aspects of the economy. A private investor will
Speaker 4: not be able to recoup.
Speaker 3: That.
Speaker 4: A private investor cannot say oh we want to collect
Speaker 4: money from taxes, from the traders and everybody else and
Speaker 4: all the other economic activity. A private investor can't do that.
Speaker 4: They can only get money from that particular traffic on
Speaker 4: that particular rail line. So for REIL, we should stay
Speaker 4: away from the ideal of private investors running rail because
Speaker 4: it's just going to make things worse for buses. We've
Speaker 4: been we've been doing it that way for a while.
Speaker 4: The problem we've had with buses is fragmentation of fragmentation
Speaker 4: of bus traffic where we have where we moved, we
Speaker 4: moved from using coach buses.
Speaker 2: Now we're using these.
Speaker 4: Eleven seater buses where people are crammed inside and so
Speaker 4: it because I remember, I remember when I was traveling
Speaker 4: back in the nineties, early two thousand, we.
Speaker 2: Entered we go to.
Speaker 4: Uh whether it can edible, Chicu, Cisco and all those
Speaker 4: guys we're using take coach buses to travel across the country.
Speaker 4: And now you want to travel, you have to get
Speaker 4: into an elevency the bus where you're prampting luggage and
Speaker 4: you don't have you So that's the problem we have
Speaker 4: in terms of bus transportation. We have to find a
Speaker 4: way to consolidate the consolidate the industry because a lot
Speaker 4: of them went to that route because they could not
Speaker 4: feel they have so many you have so many providers
Speaker 4: and they couldn't feel.
Speaker 3: Their coach buses.
Speaker 4: So they decided, oh, let's go to a smaller bus
Speaker 4: so that we can fill it up and then move.
Speaker 4: But in operating inter city buses, you have to operate
Speaker 4: on a schedule.
Speaker 2: So you operate on a schedule.
Speaker 4: Whether the bus is full or empty, that bus has
Speaker 4: to move and until we have to get to that
Speaker 4: point where that is how we operate buses, we have
Speaker 4: to find a way to consolidate.
Speaker 2: The services and also.
Speaker 4: Spreading out and also consolidating like the bus terminals, so
Speaker 4: we have we have dedicated bus terminals and don't have
Speaker 4: distributed terminals in different parts of the city for different operators.
Speaker 2: So those are the things that the government can do.
Speaker 4: And I know some governments are already already already doing
Speaker 4: doing that, but the execution has leaves a lot of
Speaker 4: room for improvement. So that's something that we can do
Speaker 4: in terms of the for the bus services and then
Speaker 4: the private and the private operators can run the buses.
Speaker 2: But in running the buses. They don't have to on
Speaker 2: a on a.
Speaker 4: Full bus, don't move until the bus is full, a
Speaker 4: strategy which for most of the time that's how.
Speaker 2: The buses have been operated.
Speaker 3: It has to be on a on a schedule.
Speaker 2: I want to.
Speaker 4: Yeah so but you but you you recover the money
Speaker 4: over you have when you calculate how you run the route.
Speaker 4: People base people make their decisions based on that schedule.
Speaker 4: If you have a schedule, somebody trusts that, Okay, I
Speaker 4: am going to leave the part at this particular time
Speaker 4: when I get to this particular bus, people will make
Speaker 4: their plans based on that, and you make your plan,
Speaker 4: you make your what you call it, your operations based
Speaker 4: based on that. If you wait on a feel and
Speaker 4: go strategy, then that's that's not a service service.
Speaker 1: That is yeah, I got you, not I hear what
Speaker 1: you're saying. But most of these guys are a momon
Speaker 1: pops or companies. Right, if you go to ABC, they
Speaker 1: operate to the set in fixed time. But Niger doesn't
Speaker 1: have this delped in like transportation companies. Again goes on
Speaker 1: fixed times. I remember back then to six am six
Speaker 1: fifteen sixty. They move. But once you go to the
Speaker 1: smaller parks. The first bosses go on time. The other
Speaker 1: bosds are going to be when they are feel But
Speaker 1: let me I don't just bring you back to I
Speaker 1: know we didn't really answer the question about the infrastructure
Speaker 1: of what Empten is doing with the tax credits. I'm
Speaker 1: going to have to take a look at it because
Speaker 1: essentially empty and builds, then Emptyn takes that money and
Speaker 1: files taxes. I don't know where the bottleneck is from.
Speaker 1: If you're saying you are plowing on it ch and
Speaker 1: it's still not changed, I'm going to have to do
Speaker 1: some research and see where really the problem is. Why
Speaker 1: is it that empty and has not fixed that road.
Speaker 1: This was not a long time ago, since twenty two
Speaker 1: so when Buhari was in charge. That's when we passed
Speaker 1: that tax credit. So let me do some research and
Speaker 1: come back to you on what's happening with the tax credits.
Speaker 1: I know NNPC did almost five hundred million dollars according
Speaker 1: to them, to build roads and the first one they
Speaker 1: did was the paper toward Yota Express Road. They fixed
Speaker 1: the bottom Yota Express Road. Then they say they did
Speaker 1: an extra five hundred million dollars. But you know it's
Speaker 1: an NPC. We have to really check their numbers and
Speaker 1: all that. And again Jostachus said, just to answer the
Speaker 1: question that the gentleman asked Daniel, I believe that over
Speaker 1: you know, in effect, in economics, that's what we call choice.
Speaker 1: Because resources are scass. So China has three trillion, they
Speaker 1: can afford to build there with no lost business. They
Speaker 1: have three trillion in reserves. Nigeria has twenty or the
Speaker 1: tety billion, so we can't build because of choice. We
Speaker 1: have to maximize what one is saying if we know
Speaker 1: it tacks to worry. I just shared a new chat.
Speaker 1: Now if you look at a new chat we shared,
Speaker 1: you said that I put the red lines across the
Speaker 1: narrow gage roads. And if you look at the narrow
Speaker 1: gage railways, we have standard gauge attack met to worry.
Speaker 1: We have standard gauge Aja to Karna. Then we have
Speaker 1: standard gauge legos to a bad On. If you look
Speaker 1: at what we've done in Nigeria, look at the entire
Speaker 1: real in Nigeria is narrow gauge. The entire rail is
Speaker 1: narrow gauge. War We've down don Is, We've taken bits
Speaker 1: of standard gauge and put it on that infrastructure, so
Speaker 1: you really can't be integrated. You can't go from walk
Speaker 1: from Kaduna to Abuja and go anywhere else by rail
Speaker 1: because the rails after Abuja is narrow gauge. There's only
Speaker 1: standard gauge from a to Karna then it stops. Same
Speaker 1: with Legos. You can only go from Legos to a
Speaker 1: Badon on standard gauge. After then it's narrow. Okay, so
Speaker 1: the train just goes to your button and it stops there.
Speaker 1: Attack but is ever worse. It's not connected to anything.
Speaker 1: So the point is why build a real way not
Speaker 1: connected to anything? Just put a BRT service there. It's
Speaker 1: not you want to move right, build build to a
Speaker 1: bus service there because it's not connected to any rail.
Speaker 1: It's just there in the middle of nowhere. From attack
Speaker 1: By to Worry. You can argue and say, okay, well,
Speaker 1: can we build from Worry to the port. That's an
Speaker 1: argument to her. Can we build from attack by toua
Speaker 1: that's not argument to help. But as it stands today,
Speaker 1: it's not connected to anything, so you might as well
Speaker 1: just take it offline, replace it with a bus service,
Speaker 1: brand new bosses or brand new trucks for cargo and
Speaker 1: then like he told, I said, move that rail line
Speaker 1: to where you have the highest need. So if you
Speaker 1: get more rail carriages, there the cost in that squirre
Speaker 1: fall and you just forget about the attack. But in
Speaker 1: for now, because you have to have a try. Is
Speaker 1: in economics the scale of preference. You can't do all
Speaker 1: how to do with you one is going to give
Speaker 1: you the maximum. That's what I'll say to that. So
Speaker 1: if we answer your question, let's get sucker chucker.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, thank you.
Speaker 15: My question again goes, what is the possibilities of this
Speaker 15: mostly southern governances. We know because we are working on
Speaker 15: the issue is economic developments?
Speaker 3: Can you hemy?
Speaker 1: I can hear you.
Speaker 3: Yes. The point is economic development? What is where?
Speaker 15: What is the most viable to both the economy and
Speaker 15: we can we have analyzed.
Speaker 2: As we should.
Speaker 15: So why can't these governors with their short kilometer going
Speaker 15: through Legos to Ondo a door to Delta, Delta to
Speaker 15: a number, a number to Ego and we have river
Speaker 15: stage because that is the east west through connecting Legos
Speaker 15: via on HR and poor tackles you know for these
Speaker 15: real and also maybe you can have a it's a
Speaker 15: highway line from there you understand. So I want to
Speaker 15: know any possibilities.
Speaker 4: I get.
Speaker 1: Your question, I get your question, and so name you
Speaker 1: will speak. But let me just give you my own take.
Speaker 1: You know, when we start up, I said, the issue
Speaker 1: in Nigeria is this four year and eight year time limit.
Speaker 1: If you start today, you know, in the past, railways
Speaker 1: could only be built by the federal government of Nigeria,
Speaker 1: not the states. Only the federal government. Now states can
Speaker 1: build railways, but you can't build a railway get it operational.
Speaker 1: I would even say in four years. It's very very hard.
Speaker 1: Let's say you have the funding today, it's difficult to
Speaker 1: build that whole railway line, get it funded and operation
Speaker 1: in four years. You see where I'm coming from. So
Speaker 1: any governor you go to today and you tell the governor,
Speaker 1: let's build the real line from only Chat to our
Speaker 1: bar to Niwi. That's a wonderful project because you are
Speaker 1: content three clusters, so on a bat over and then
Speaker 1: you credit it back to the rail line in Portacot,
Speaker 1: so it's conduct to the federal line, but it's serving
Speaker 1: in Nivy a bar on a cha beautiful idea. But
Speaker 1: if you start today, it's the first thing you're going
Speaker 1: going to raise capital. You raise capital, you go to
Speaker 1: ic r C in for social REGULTI commissions to get approval.
Speaker 1: Let's say you do all this in one year. You
Speaker 1: can you now mobilize the contractors to site. They will
Speaker 1: take at least six months to bring all their stuff
Speaker 1: to site. Hire people, do survey. Do my piness on
Speaker 1: that six years, on that six months. Then at least
Speaker 1: on that one year you start to clear cleared road.
Speaker 1: Two years has gone. You're now in the tired year.
Speaker 1: Politics has started. Let's say you are in from politics.
Speaker 1: You can't build the rail line in two years, so
Speaker 1: you're not go for your second term. In your second term, fine,
Speaker 1: you start to build. Can you compete in in five
Speaker 1: years or in four years? Maybe you compete a bat tonary,
Speaker 1: but can you do all three and connect it?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 1: So the problem is that it's no longer a governor.
Speaker 1: It cannot be a governor chasing it. It's got to
Speaker 1: be a region chasing it for the entire region. And
Speaker 1: the governor's job is just to contribute to money.
Speaker 3: So you have That's that's what I said.
Speaker 1: But that's that's where I'm going to. So, so if
Speaker 1: you fintance have the se DC, you have the naughtiest
Speaker 1: of no commission. You have the oldest domination over the place.
Speaker 1: If they simply say every quarter every month, we're going
Speaker 1: to transfer funds from our fac to this fund and
Speaker 1: you create an SPV. This SPV is the seat funding.
Speaker 1: So the government puts seed funding. But the government can
Speaker 1: also sell equity in this line to the diaspora Nigersey
Speaker 1: and daspora and they own the railway line because that's
Speaker 1: an asset. You then see are going to then build
Speaker 1: this railway over fifteen twenty years and you would operate
Speaker 1: it even at the loss. But it's for the it's
Speaker 1: the southeast of the South South or whatever the point is.
Speaker 1: You can't if you take away the who gets the credit.
Speaker 1: This is very very easy to build. It doesn't cost
Speaker 1: as much as you think. It doesn't cost that much.
Speaker 1: But the governors that have the seed funding, I'm not
Speaker 1: going to deploy that seed funding into a project that
Speaker 1: they will not be personally call loaded for. That's my
Speaker 1: own personal view. I could be wrong if you see
Speaker 1: a governors have to build today, but look at the
Speaker 1: Inugo State governors statement. He wants to build a real
Speaker 1: way he himself from Inugu to honor. Notice he didn't
Speaker 1: say I'm going to talk to my other brothers in
Speaker 1: the southeast. I'm gonna come together. No, he wants to build.
Speaker 1: It's a fantastic idea. But if everyone was doing it,
Speaker 1: the cost will fall and it's more viable. Inug is
Speaker 1: not near, it's not bothering cross rivers. That's the pastoral state, right,
Speaker 1: So that thing's going to pass through. Will they give
Speaker 1: him approval? Will they fund at a part of this project?
Speaker 1: So you see it's this is the thing that you
Speaker 1: can't build railway or riven roads on a silo micro basiness.
Speaker 1: That's why I bought any in here today. You've got
Speaker 1: to have a plan this road we're building. You know,
Speaker 1: if you want to build a road inside Inugo state,
Speaker 1: it'd be more expensive than if you could talk to
Speaker 1: Inugo Emo happier Ebonie. And so let's build a five
Speaker 1: state super highway. If you're bringing to thus burger and
Speaker 1: you tell you those burger every month, we're going to
Speaker 1: take ten percent of our fack without stoppage. We're going
Speaker 1: to do an irrevocable standard that payment to go from
Speaker 1: our farc to a bank. That bank account will pay you.
Speaker 1: We want you to build us a ten lane expressway
Speaker 1: connecting all the five eastern states with the railway line,
Speaker 1: and this fund they will continue for the next twenty
Speaker 1: five years. If Burger has such an arrangement, they'll start
Speaker 1: to build it because they know even if the governor
Speaker 1: goes away, they will get their money. It to be
Speaker 1: cheaper than one state trying to build that same infrastructure.
Speaker 1: So it's back to this thing. We don't talk about
Speaker 1: politics and we don't plan long term. China can build
Speaker 1: this thing because it's China America. They try to build
Speaker 1: a real way in California Attilani and they haven't done it,
Speaker 1: but some states have, so it's a in Nigeria is
Speaker 1: a different animal. But I just think that everybody wants
Speaker 1: to succeed. Everybody wants to succeed. You know, if you
Speaker 1: go to the other states and you say this will
Speaker 1: make your v eighty in twenty years to go up,
Speaker 1: but you won't spend that much money today. I think
Speaker 1: you'll get a lot of buying. But you have to
Speaker 1: have a leader. Someone has to go and say and
Speaker 1: hold it in and sell it, you know, we have
Speaker 1: too many and I'm going to get into trouble. Now
Speaker 1: Let'm just say it. What you call the southeast and
Speaker 1: what you call the southwest today well wrung by one person.
Speaker 1: I want to go around the southwest. He alone, Okbara
Speaker 1: around the southeast. So if Michael Obara says it wanted
Speaker 1: to build a railway, it's like how they wants to
Speaker 1: build the railway from all mar Heir to albat He
Speaker 1: just it's within his state. But now we're fragmented this
Speaker 1: thing down to five states, six states that if you
Speaker 1: state they want to build a railway in the Southwest,
Speaker 1: you will see what will happen to go and say
Speaker 1: it's one God will say is a PC or his
Speaker 1: PDP all the most past through my state capital or
Speaker 1: in my pasture here, then you get issues. So this
Speaker 1: this fragmentation states versus regions, it's going back to bite us.
Speaker 1: You know America they have the Valley wide you know
Speaker 1: the River Valley Railway cluster. But here this state thing
Speaker 1: you have Some states are too small to be states,
Speaker 1: but they control a lot of land masks, which is
Speaker 1: pivotal to infrastructure. You know what I'm saying, telling me,
Speaker 1: if you can have. I just might take, Yeah, you
Speaker 1: have to have buying a strong leader. If I want
Speaker 1: to what today woke up and said we're going to
Speaker 1: build railway in the Southwest, he would do it, but
Speaker 1: I woke up to that I want to building it
Speaker 1: because he can go to all those five dates and
Speaker 1: say this is what you want to do. But look
Speaker 1: at your political governance today. Which governor do you think
Speaker 1: can core less five different governors and say hey, let's
Speaker 1: take ten percent of a park and deploy a railway.
Speaker 1: Which one do you think? You have a name? Which
Speaker 1: one you think I do it? They're all competing in
Speaker 1: a way. So that's Tucker that it's a problem I
Speaker 1: would like to you. But yeah, modestas you have something, say.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 13: I just wanted to offer to three points on this issue.
Speaker 13: The first one is, like the Southeastern States, they are
Speaker 13: very very easy to be connected through a tram system.
Speaker 13: A tram line doesn't cost as much as the train
Speaker 13: line and it's equally the same purpose. You can serve
Speaker 13: the same purpose and very very dark costs.
Speaker 1: Those trams are saying like in in in Germany, traming
Speaker 1: in Germany Europe carries carry Yeah, they.
Speaker 15: Carry a lot so the fat is almost the same
Speaker 15: thing with the train. But the only good thing there
Speaker 15: is they use electric. It just connected to the sub
Speaker 15: station and then it powers it easily. It moves on. Yeah,
Speaker 15: it is electric. So because we have so many like
Speaker 15: if we go to the Eastern Corridor there we have
Speaker 15: some power station. There are quite a few power stations around.
Speaker 15: All you need to do is just to connect it
Speaker 15: there and the trams can just connect.
Speaker 3: The whole East stays very very is very very cheaped around.
Speaker 15: Very nice network and it's fat is not even going
Speaker 15: to take.
Speaker 3: Too much to do, So that is one side of it.
Speaker 15: Then I'm also worried about this Nigerian population projections. We
Speaker 15: are created to get to try to four to five
Speaker 15: U red million in the next twenty years, but it's
Speaker 15: like we are not planning for that, and it's one
Speaker 15: of the things that has struggled with all along.
Speaker 3: Every time I look at the state budget.
Speaker 15: In the Southeast, the capitol budget is always rude. Since
Speaker 15: I was born, he has always been rolled, and I
Speaker 15: tend to wonder if the rules has increased, if the
Speaker 15: land has increased, because it's like every every year the
Speaker 15: governors do the budget for the same road, that same road.
Speaker 15: You know, it hasn't increased in size, but he has
Speaker 15: always taken fifty to sixty percent of the budget on
Speaker 15: a yearly basis. And I think I have looked into
Speaker 15: it to look at the corporates about it. It's like
Speaker 15: when a governor says I'm commissioning a four kilolited road,
Speaker 15: he gets more accolade than when he does.
Speaker 1: N you that there.
Speaker 15: So what they do is rather than saying because in Europe,
Speaker 15: here I'll develop. Very frankly too, those whom maintain your
Speaker 15: roads here are not even dedicated. They're not even they
Speaker 15: didn't even go to invest They build the road that
Speaker 15: those people maintain ify. They drive every day looking for
Speaker 15: where there is a smart end and the patch the
Speaker 15: top roadworks is almost on a daily basis to maintain
Speaker 15: those existing roads that has already been built. So the problem,
Speaker 15: one of the problems we have, it's not even consulting
Speaker 15: new one, it's maintaining existing ones. You can pick a
Speaker 15: road in Nigeria and find that it's been awarded and
Speaker 15: awarded and awarded and awarded.
Speaker 3: It's like a conduit pipe.
Speaker 2: We are.
Speaker 15: Governors use it to wreke money, you know, and it
Speaker 15: really really annoys me too much because we have sort
Speaker 15: of put governors and add road building on top of
Speaker 15: it as a metric to measure the level of governance
Speaker 15: and what people are doing. And because we have done that,
Speaker 15: it's like you have sucked out the life of every
Speaker 15: other infratuary development.
Speaker 3: We're not talking about interssualization. We're not talking about building
Speaker 3: infractures of.
Speaker 15: That served as employment, like you know, having employment hobs,
Speaker 15: having manufacturing hobs.
Speaker 3: You know, if I myself, I feel.
Speaker 15: That the governor should even put more money in manufacturing
Speaker 15: and then led the companies themselves build the accessory that
Speaker 15: goes to their places. But that's how most of the
Speaker 15: towns in Europe are built, the building dossal area and
Speaker 15: then the accessory befollow through CSA.
Speaker 3: That is one or that things.
Speaker 15: One of that thing I also want to talk about
Speaker 15: and accidently local authorities to maintain their rows, you know,
Speaker 15: like you did mentionquay building in the temport. I paid,
Speaker 15: my dad measured that I paid. Every child paid their
Speaker 15: money who went to primary school in them days, primary
Speaker 15: secondary invasion all paid because we took ownership was so
Speaker 15: to us as this thing belongs to us, and because
Speaker 15: it was so to us, we are so passionate to
Speaker 15: pay for it. But this time around it's like the
Speaker 15: governors have taken it. Okay, oh, I can only be
Speaker 15: measured by the road that we open up the next
Speaker 15: day because of our topography. You know, a governor people
Speaker 15: one road in Namos and it does opened many the
Speaker 15: rents and came in. He opened everywhere and you were
Speaker 15: saying what you therefore acid on the road that was
Speaker 15: his naivity. He said, why is this road? I commentioned it,
Speaker 15: I drove past it and now it's open. But he
Speaker 15: didn't know that the block there is the topographs of
Speaker 15: the area means that some of the really tones that
Speaker 15: the underground where as soon as the ring goes he
Speaker 15: will come up. But if he has known that, he
Speaker 15: probably would have been able to sell. Look, I need
Speaker 15: to maintain this rules and the thing there that really
Speaker 15: really struck me most of the times, since we don't
Speaker 15: really look at it to say, how do we develop
Speaker 15: our mechanical engineers as civil engineers? Why do we still
Speaker 15: our w root projects to stand contractors from abroad?
Speaker 3: What are they doing in Europe?
Speaker 15: You can even go to carts Apular website and buy
Speaker 15: the entire machinery to describe.
Speaker 3: The old one, put the new one and do it
Speaker 3: to raise and repeats two three terms in a year.
Speaker 15: But it's like it's a very big revenue draining for
Speaker 15: these local authorities and governors.
Speaker 3: They do that a lot and annoyment to help there.
Speaker 15: You talked about the overcraft. The waterways. Europe is connected
Speaker 15: by canals. The build these canals to use it to
Speaker 15: move their heavehicles. They build it at that time of
Speaker 15: the height of the industrial revolution and instill serving them.
Speaker 15: We have waterways all across the country. It's something that
Speaker 15: we really really need to start thinking of how do
Speaker 15: we develop that. You know, it's a very easy thing,
Speaker 15: but it's like our people don't really have that vision
Speaker 15: to say, how do I do this? How do I
Speaker 15: connect these networks for economic development? How do I move
Speaker 15: goods from our area to Cameroon? How do I do
Speaker 15: that at the scale? And then once you're able to
Speaker 15: do that, it can bring like mine together to say, look,
Speaker 15: people like tolering that to see I said, look, develop
Speaker 15: a policy for me that I can use and implement
Speaker 15: and then have that vision from inception to implementation, and
Speaker 15: then you can begin to see the economism scare that
Speaker 15: comes from that, but we are not doing it. It's
Speaker 15: like everything about us is short term, short term, short term.
Speaker 15: You know, people are just eager to please, even though
Speaker 15: it doesn't really make sense. It will not even last
Speaker 15: year the next election, it might not even last. So
Speaker 15: these are the tiss I wanted to talk about. But
Speaker 15: I really feel that in the Southeast we need to
Speaker 15: look at the dram system. Each of these days are
Speaker 15: not more than for the five minutes toumb if you
Speaker 15: for five miles apart from but that got to over.
Speaker 15: It's only for five minutes on the bus, on the
Speaker 15: tram driving a seventy mice from now it can even
Speaker 15: get there in twenty minutes because tramps can do a
Speaker 15: top seed of seventy to eighty cler. And these are
Speaker 15: some of the things that these people they come to it,
Speaker 15: they jump on these trams, but when they go back
Speaker 15: they don't really ask why is this so efficient?
Speaker 3: How can I do that?
Speaker 15: You know, it's like the bigger things people I just
Speaker 15: fed looked up on.
Speaker 3: The bigger We want the seaport, we want a rail line.
Speaker 1: I honestly think that we need to connect intra we
Speaker 1: talk about the seaport, I think the roads and the
Speaker 1: rails connecting Nigeria all the state capitals. To me, says
Speaker 1: bigger even the seaport, because there's a lot of commerce
Speaker 1: that is lost. A lot of commerce is lost because
Speaker 1: we don't have roads. We have mango season. If you
Speaker 1: go to Benveested today, there's the mangos on the floor
Speaker 1: rotting the way, rotten away. If you go on tomatoeses
Speaker 1: into canno, tomatoes rotting away, onions rotting away. But there
Speaker 1: are no roads to take the tomatoes. Mangoes are from
Speaker 1: the north to the start where the where the markets are.
Speaker 1: Look at PMS, we're paying so looking.
Speaker 15: At it from the transportation side of it, what I'm
Speaker 15: looking at is what stops ben from investing in technology
Speaker 15: to the excess mangos.
Speaker 1: That is the point. But that is the point. But
Speaker 1: when you storage, you still have to move it. You
Speaker 1: still have to move it.
Speaker 3: If you know it.
Speaker 2: That's scale.
Speaker 15: You cannot begin to have people who actually know what
Speaker 15: to do in terms of distribution.
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not disputing that. I'm just staying because
Speaker 1: we're talking more of transportation, the issue is still that
Speaker 1: you need to transport food from where it's grown to
Speaker 1: where it's consumed. It's just at the topic today is
Speaker 1: I'm not against storage, No, no, your complic correct value
Speaker 1: chain needs that investment, right, But still the rural as
Speaker 1: I start off the topic with diffree, diffree, at a
Speaker 1: very very base level, it's talking about building infrastructure at
Speaker 1: the rural villages, going to the villages where there's cassava,
Speaker 1: where there's sorgum and millet, and building doesn't even if
Speaker 1: there's a road that can take a little truck from
Speaker 1: that village to the bigger town, then to the bigger
Speaker 1: town others to the cities, and that's the whole way.
Speaker 1: That's how you develop really and the infrastructure has got
Speaker 1: to be connected is to gain the points you know.
Speaker 15: Yeah, yeah, Just to circle back on that then, you said,
Speaker 15: my grandfather used to work for Minister of Works at
Speaker 15: the time when I was very very young. We used
Speaker 15: to go to the local authority. Every local government in
Speaker 15: this is done used to have a minister of works.
Speaker 15: And how you know that this minister of works is
Speaker 15: that you see a heap of Quota, you see a
Speaker 15: heap of Ashford, and then you see a lot of
Speaker 15: shovels that you see a lot of that in the
Speaker 15: local authority, in the local government headquarter, and every morning
Speaker 15: they go out and patch the roads within their local authority.
Speaker 3: That keeps every road.
Speaker 15: In termshape because the people in that minute, in that
Speaker 15: local authority have to go to work on a daily basis.
Speaker 15: But when we started this issue of contracts, that's when
Speaker 15: they begin to disband all this stuff. And yet Europe
Speaker 15: that we learn from still maintain that it is a
Speaker 15: local authority in England that build the roads. Within the
Speaker 15: local authority, it's them that maintained even the trunk air
Speaker 15: from b and even the access roads and all the
Speaker 15: roads that link to the to the major highway.
Speaker 1: The way I know, the way I know it's a
Speaker 1: summer is that I see road maintenance. That's how I
Speaker 1: know it's summer. Once it's summer, that's maintenance all over
Speaker 1: the place.
Speaker 15: We need to bring back that so that the governors
Speaker 15: to stop thinking about this routing wander eating billions and billions,
Speaker 15: and then at the end of the day the state
Speaker 15: passes through those local authorities that could have been better position.
Speaker 15: At least we're talking about creating of jobs. We don't
Speaker 15: have jobs. We don't have people who are even trained
Speaker 15: in the universities to do work in all these in
Speaker 15: in all these sectors of the economy that we're talking about.
Speaker 15: You know, when you bring you lots bigger, they put
Speaker 15: two machines there on the road, and then the employe
Speaker 15: only ten people, and it's a forty billion NARRA contract.
Speaker 3: You don't even see.
Speaker 15: I don't even see the advantage for the people who
Speaker 15: are there in terms of revenue, in terms of employment.
Speaker 15: If you put it you lots bigger and they use
Speaker 15: sixty billion to build the road and the employeely ten people,
Speaker 15: what does that even tell us? And this is I
Speaker 15: think some oney tends. I feel that those who are
Speaker 15: I see them when I go to Nadia, and it
Speaker 15: really really scares me because that is not how it
Speaker 15: is done.
Speaker 1: I got you to me. I mean we've talked a lot.
Speaker 1: Do you have any comments on the exchange? I mean,
Speaker 1: he's really going down to the maintenance side of it.
Speaker 1: Is this something that if you talk about again, if
Speaker 1: you had one point three trillion and you had infrastructure
Speaker 1: broken down, I personally would have focused on fixing the
Speaker 1: existing roads, at least getting them motorable. You've talked about
Speaker 1: the local job cluster that is blocked on, the CHI
Speaker 1: cluster is blocked out there than going to build a
Speaker 1: brand new you know, at one point tillion coast road
Speaker 1: that's not going to be built in next ten years.
Speaker 1: So what's your take on just the composition so far.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if you can still hear me to Nami. Yeah, sorry,
Speaker 1: s sorry, go for it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks modestas for our sharing, for sharing that information.
Speaker 4: For in terms of maintenance, it is a it is
Speaker 4: a critical part. Unfortunately, it is not glitzy or glamours
Speaker 4: lucrative for governors, so it doesn't get get the attention
Speaker 4: that it needs.
Speaker 3: So governors always focus on what new project they're.
Speaker 2: Going to bring in. If we.
Speaker 4: Building building roads or any transport infrastructure is not just.
Speaker 2: Building the infrastructure. You have to maintain that infrastructure.
Speaker 4: And that's one thing why for example, like the states
Speaker 4: that have brought out their real master plans, because rail
Speaker 4: is something thats a lot of operational aptitude to be
Speaker 4: able to get it, to get the best out of it,
Speaker 4: and if you're not able to operate, then it's a
Speaker 4: total waste of resources.
Speaker 3: So all those.
Speaker 4: States that are talking about real master plant is rail
Speaker 4: mater blind that they'll be better served using that money.
Speaker 2: To fix the roads.
Speaker 4: Like you say, fix the existing roads, we have lots
Speaker 4: of very very poor roads that.
Speaker 2: In poor conditions. Fix the existing roads to.
Speaker 4: Allow people to move more efficiently within the states, so
Speaker 4: they'll get more value out of that.
Speaker 2: It was a research done on the Chinese road road.
Speaker 4: Infrastructure and a conclusion of the finding was that the
Speaker 4: the rural roads where they had a.
Speaker 2: Was it economic value.
Speaker 4: That was four times four times those of the major expressways.
Speaker 4: So there's a lot of value that is locked in
Speaker 4: and a lot of these rules that are connecting agriculture
Speaker 4: from agricultural source to points of consumption that or just
Speaker 4: just linking linking those rural areas so that they can
Speaker 4: get their products to the main roads. That would be
Speaker 4: that's a source of make out the a major value
Speaker 4: addition for the states. In regards to the part about
Speaker 4: In regards to the part about trams, trams are for
Speaker 4: urban urban movements. So in a lot in European cities
Speaker 4: that have that operate trams, they're only they only served.
Speaker 1: In Yeah, they only.
Speaker 4: Serve the urban area because the trams they have the
Speaker 4: rails that are used for trams.
Speaker 3: They're different from.
Speaker 2: The rails that are used for for mainline rail.
Speaker 4: Because they have to they're designed so that people don't
Speaker 4: trip on it, so it has a lower weight paring capacity, so.
Speaker 2: And so that they can place it because they usually
Speaker 2: place them in the.
Speaker 4: Streets because they have people walking across the streets, cars
Speaker 4: crossing across the street.
Speaker 3: So in terms of.
Speaker 4: In terms of using those trams are I would say
Speaker 4: trams are not really suitable for Nigerian cities because for
Speaker 4: the trams as a like main urban transit system, they
Speaker 4: only serve like very small cities.
Speaker 2: Once your city gets larger than a million or more.
Speaker 4: People, it's best to just build metal lines serve because
Speaker 4: the trams metro lines have higher carring capacity than trams.
Speaker 2: Uh and for for intercity travel for passengers, that's.
Speaker 4: Where the whole point of this regional this inter city
Speaker 4: rail it's it's it's different from a tram line. So
Speaker 4: that's like a mainline heavy heavy rail for inter city traffic.
Speaker 3: For that.
Speaker 2: Unless the like if it's for the southeast, unless all
Speaker 2: the states come together and build the entire route.
Speaker 4: From Port Hardcourts to an Hl to Ugole, then it's
Speaker 4: not useful if you only build sections of it, like
Speaker 4: for example, the memo, build only the section within EMO,
Speaker 4: then it's useless exactly until.
Speaker 2: You build the entire thing, then there's no point in
Speaker 2: doing in doing that.
Speaker 4: So for the for the inter city reel, it's either
Speaker 4: the region comes together and builds it at once, or
Speaker 4: the federal government does it like the federal government has
Speaker 4: been doing for the other other railways, and the federal
Speaker 4: government takes the initiative to do it from the federal level. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Otherwise it's it's just for the states. The states should
Speaker 2: not be having real as something that as something that
Speaker 2: is part of their infrastructure plan. It should be roads.
Speaker 4: They should be focused on roads and linking those, fixing
Speaker 4: the existing roads.
Speaker 2: And in terms of like urban.
Speaker 4: Urban movement, they should be planning metro systems.
Speaker 2: Not every state, not every city moves one.
Speaker 3: Right now, the only city is that that need a
Speaker 3: metro in the.
Speaker 2: Southeast apport maybe a BA, and they should.
Speaker 4: Be planning for those, and they could start by running
Speaker 4: bus services and then they should be planning for those
Speaker 4: routes and fund.
Speaker 2: Try to get funding for the major.
Speaker 4: Corridors, and then you build those major corridors and you
Speaker 4: feed it with buses, and that's how you serve your
Speaker 4: your urban space. For the most a lot of Nigerian
Speaker 4: cities are way too big to be served by trams.
Speaker 2: At this point, you might, well.
Speaker 1: I do want to talk. I don't want to confirm
Speaker 1: why you think the states can do real. You set
Speaker 1: to focus on roads. Is it costs or if it
Speaker 1: still has got the money. Lego still has a lot
Speaker 1: of money, Acquiment has a lot of money, Delta has
Speaker 1: a lot of money. Why can't those states do real?
Speaker 1: Even Delta states are going to do a saba to
Speaker 1: whatever they can fund it. Why can't they do real?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: The thing with the thing with reel is reel is only.
Speaker 4: It's only useful for long distances, and most of the
Speaker 4: states in Nigeria the relatively. So if your state is
Speaker 4: not crossing many state lines, if the rail line is
Speaker 4: not crossing many state lines, then it's not going to.
Speaker 2: Be that much valuable.
Speaker 1: Makes sense, I get to know.
Speaker 4: So rather than putting that money, tying up that money
Speaker 4: on that short rail line, it's best to put that
Speaker 4: money into roads that can actually benefit benefits the people
Speaker 4: that immediately. If the only time that money should go
Speaker 4: to reil is if there is a consortium, like all
Speaker 4: the states want to build in a region, I say
Speaker 4: the Southwest, all the south States, they agree, they put
Speaker 4: the funding in, and then they build the entire the
Speaker 4: entire route. If each state is building their own building
Speaker 4: their own rail just for the state, Yeah, it's not
Speaker 4: going to.
Speaker 3: Be very small.
Speaker 1: Yeah it makes sense. I see we're going to with
Speaker 1: that's some guys. You want to speak a preepole real quick?
Speaker 1: What's in your mind?
Speaker 2: Hi? Just to build up what you just mentioned with
Speaker 2: the with the corridors between the states, and you.
Speaker 8: Talked about our private private players might not be the
Speaker 8: best option to participate in another transport link. Well, I
Speaker 8: wanted to just maybe run through this scenario where where
Speaker 8: you have in some place and you're where certain routes
Speaker 8: are given to exclusively to some players to run bus transportation.
Speaker 2: I guess they do there and it seems to be profitable.
Speaker 17: Is are they oppor similar opportunities on bus routes so
Speaker 17: certain corridors where it will be profitable for a private
Speaker 17: player to have exclusive rights to run a bus network
Speaker 17: on that corridor, or is is there a bit more
Speaker 17: advanced than where the.
Speaker 1: Country is are you saying, like, give a route to
Speaker 1: just one guy to run?
Speaker 18: Yeah, so's they give some companies run one route the
Speaker 18: bus route they run. They have exclusive rights to run
Speaker 18: a bus network and one route or one corridor and
Speaker 18: they move mostly people mostly between the red desk popularior
Speaker 18: and it's profitable. Margins are are not huge, but it's
Speaker 18: profitable enough for a private player to take that route.
Speaker 2: So I'm asking if.
Speaker 8: If ces similar opportunities in the Nigeria, every highly dense roots,
Speaker 8: if the government does build out the corridor and maybe
Speaker 8: or with the existing infrastructure, now, are there any opportunity
Speaker 8: is there is similar opportunity on the ground.
Speaker 2: Now is this for the for the buses, is this
Speaker 2: for event transport or inter city.
Speaker 3: And uh, let's say both.
Speaker 17: That's a city that any would you would you believe
Speaker 17: there will be an opportunities similar opportunity where an exclusive
Speaker 17: route or private player.
Speaker 2: Exists or that structure would work.
Speaker 1: I don't like any private though, but go ahead, Yeah, so.
Speaker 2: That there there are opportunities for that.
Speaker 3: But the.
Speaker 4: The the points of the puntal failure in that structure
Speaker 4: is how will the.
Speaker 2: Public body manages manages that that agreement. So if the
Speaker 2: public body has uh h yeah, they can.
Speaker 4: They can issue one corridor for a private or a
Speaker 4: private a private transport company to run that to run
Speaker 4: that particular corridor. But if the agreement is not handled properly,
Speaker 4: then it's going to generate a lot of issues because
Speaker 4: for example, if the privates AH the private operator does
Speaker 4: not have enough funds two runs out of funds to
Speaker 4: operate the route, what should be what should happen to
Speaker 4: that route?
Speaker 2: Should the.
Speaker 4: Nobody is going to travel that route within because the
Speaker 4: private partner doesn't have the money to run it.
Speaker 3: And then what happens in those situations.
Speaker 2: So they're all.
Speaker 4: It's it's doable, but I will not trust the current
Speaker 4: situation of the Nigerian public.
Speaker 2: Public bodies to be able to execute that right.
Speaker 4: It's going to the way we have we are right
Speaker 4: now is going to set us up for a big
Speaker 4: time disaster.
Speaker 1: And again it has to just be a symbiotic relationship.
Speaker 1: I know, ABC Autos came up with a boss that
Speaker 1: had air conditioning, you could have had in flight entertainment
Speaker 1: and meals, but their were Nigerian roads. I mean, this
Speaker 1: company was listed, it's a listed as a PLC. You
Speaker 1: could buy into that transport sector. The point of making
Speaker 1: it was a quote unquote first class company one Nigerian roads.
Speaker 1: Eventually the roads ruined, the buses, the ages stopped working,
Speaker 1: and when you go to the park, it's you know
Speaker 1: it two have to go together. If those roads were fantastic,
Speaker 1: you would have had to talk about the greyhound today
Speaker 1: that you have this company ABC doing legals to be
Speaker 1: a degree with a cognition bosses. But the roads all
Speaker 1: went bad. You know, the last time I went on
Speaker 1: a night trip, Oh my good Jesus. You know, like
Speaker 1: this is decades ago.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: Literally, people are building the roads at night, villagers, you
Speaker 1: pay them money that you go to the roo at night.
Speaker 1: What struggle was the commerce at night? So the night
Speaker 1: the town is asleep. But the entire road network has
Speaker 1: got commas up and running. People are getting jobs, people
Speaker 1: are getting fed. You know, there's there's v eighty happening there.
Speaker 1: But there are no roads. Eventually, and you see insecurity
Speaker 1: people shooting in the air because you know, so it's
Speaker 1: got to go hand in hand, you know. And I
Speaker 1: think that if you get this right, if you have
Speaker 1: a state that is really open going night bosses can
Speaker 1: even take you you work during the day, you take
Speaker 1: a night boss from EMO to whatever it's. It's commas
Speaker 1: has got to go hand in hand. The government has
Speaker 1: to do his own and the private sector goes where
Speaker 1: it sees money being deployed. The pricedice is profit motive.
Speaker 1: The government has got to take the risk, take their
Speaker 1: own farc as a seed fund and create the conditions
Speaker 1: for the products that are coming, in effect subsidize the
Speaker 1: parts to come in. If it don't tell the products
Speaker 1: that'll go and do a bus service between two major cities.
Speaker 1: A lot of risk there. So the risk it put
Speaker 1: the roads there, put the mark, the rails, pull the
Speaker 1: street lights, so can go and invest. That's my take
Speaker 1: on that.
Speaker 8: Yeah, no, right, but we'd to ask more question because
Speaker 8: just what she said with incentivizing the private investments of
Speaker 8: private capital and infrastructure and baby I can touch with this.
Speaker 8: Where do you see the balance with tolling where you
Speaker 8: operate private companies to build a larger, large road projects
Speaker 8: with the with the opportunity to put a toll out there,
Speaker 8: and balancing that versus the government doing the work of
Speaker 8: leveraging their fac or leveraging some public capital to raised
Speaker 8: raised on international market is.
Speaker 3: A risk with totally.
Speaker 2: I don't think you public infrastructure.
Speaker 1: I think the people are not afraid of toning body
Speaker 1: amount you're gonna toll them, which you know, if you're
Speaker 1: the South Africa, you just go throops. You don't wanna stop,
Speaker 1: you just go straight through. It charges you. You can't
Speaker 1: toll in Nigeria if you if you don't have unique identifiers,
Speaker 1: so your license plate has got to be attached to
Speaker 1: you literally, so if you have a toll on legacy
Speaker 1: by the next press rule and you don't stop, you
Speaker 1: just scans your license plate, it charges you, which is
Speaker 1: how it is done really going forward now, and you
Speaker 1: are charging one one nira. Even if you charge one
Speaker 1: naira one nira, nobody moses that tool, but you're gonna
Speaker 1: make the same billions. I think it's this toll of
Speaker 1: three hundred naira. You go from from like I phace
Speaker 1: one to the tear round about you're supposed to pays
Speaker 1: for three tools for instance, and you're charging turning. I've
Speaker 1: got a producing this said, but I still think if
Speaker 1: you charge five niner ten niner per tour and it
Speaker 1: just just just charging you, everyone will pay the bee
Speaker 1: hundred percent compliance and you see make the billions because
Speaker 1: it's a twenty five year, thirty year project in it.
Speaker 1: So why are you charging twenty dollars ty niner two
Speaker 1: days because you want to pay off a four year contract.
Speaker 1: All of the terms of a governor. We'll go back
Speaker 1: to this political timeline again. They would have to do
Speaker 1: this product within four or eighty years because the governor
Speaker 1: wants to make sure he closes that loop before he
Speaker 1: leaves office. So a toll that should be for twenty
Speaker 1: five years, you first forward it to eighty years with
Speaker 1: them means the park tool goes up to whatever. And
Speaker 1: that's why we have all this expensive Really, what's wrong
Speaker 1: with five nine two? If ten cars go fifteen nine?
Speaker 1: How much is that?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 1: And you're doing it every day? Cars are just passing
Speaker 1: the two and every day? Why can't you do that?
Speaker 1: Why want it be one thousand?
Speaker 8: I don't, yeah, but I love to you take on
Speaker 8: where you see the tolling at Manders current condition is
Speaker 8: it is this something that has a viable option and
Speaker 8: dolls put the deficit on?
Speaker 2: Why it would be your problem?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 2: For toll for toll toll roads, the for yes, I
Speaker 2: would say they do. They do have places where they're useful.
Speaker 3: For the.
Speaker 4: If you look at Cana, for example, most of their
Speaker 4: most of their major eye highways, if not all of
Speaker 4: them are all told and.
Speaker 2: But those are I can't I don't remember, like what's
Speaker 2: what the toll is, but those are mostly those are
Speaker 2: most peak upment run highways.
Speaker 4: And if you look at another country that also has
Speaker 4: a lot of toll roads, which is Japan, a lot
Speaker 4: of private roads, you see the private the private roads
Speaker 4: tend to culster around urban centers. They're very short, close
Speaker 4: to either Tokyo or Soaka, and or they leave the
Speaker 4: rest of the highway system linking those regions at a
Speaker 4: long distance to the public sector.
Speaker 2: And that's because you get more.
Speaker 4: Turnover in the urban roads than you do on those
Speaker 4: long stretch pieces of highway. So in terms of tolling,
Speaker 4: the short urban routes are more loocrative for high for
Speaker 4: a privating restor to operate than for example.
Speaker 2: If you want to if you want to connect Legos
Speaker 2: to Anija with a toll road, the tolls will likely
Speaker 2: not cover the cost of operating the road. You're going
Speaker 2: to be in a deficit and that's not going to be.
Speaker 4: That's not going to be a lucrative endeavor for a
Speaker 4: private investor to uh to go it to go into.
Speaker 4: But just as the private operator after Makiyah, that is
Speaker 4: where it makes.
Speaker 6: That is where it's locrative because you have a lot
Speaker 6: of through good and the distance is very short.
Speaker 2: But yeah, like Kylo said, the tolls have to be
Speaker 2: reasonable and.
Speaker 1: The the roads have to be.
Speaker 2: The roads have to be maintained properly.
Speaker 4: And also I don't I don't remember then updating the
Speaker 4: toll collection is it there? Have they moved to electric
Speaker 4: electronic tolling yet or you still pay.
Speaker 2: By the toll booth.
Speaker 1: You have those little things you stick on your on
Speaker 1: your windscreen, but that it's just a free paid the
Speaker 1: way it should be certainly, you know how it's when
Speaker 1: you register with the fires the fi RSS has your
Speaker 1: number plate, attack that number plate to your BV and
Speaker 1: so that way, once you go past, you don't have
Speaker 1: to put it reached who the car is. It just
Speaker 1: sends you a bill. You don't have to collect the
Speaker 1: bill on the spot. You can pay monthly if you want,
Speaker 1: daily if you want, but it just sends you a
Speaker 1: bill as you go through, so you don't stop, and
Speaker 1: then it's a freeway just you just go straight through.
Speaker 1: It charges you if you want to pay at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, fantastic. You go to a boot
Speaker 1: and you pay. But if you did it that way,
Speaker 1: it takes a bay most of the you know, make
Speaker 1: it very very cheap, make it seamless. I think that's
Speaker 1: the way to do it.
Speaker 2: I think contributes to make it even cheaper. Yeah, the friction, you.
Speaker 1: Don't need people to collect it. You don't need people
Speaker 1: to collect the bills. You don't need to hire people.
Speaker 1: If you don't pay the thing, it catches you. You know,
Speaker 1: they can track you back to where you were. They
Speaker 1: have your BV and they have your number paid to
Speaker 1: have your address. They give you a c T bill
Speaker 1: you have to pay. But that's those way you have
Speaker 1: to look at some guys.
Speaker 3: I's my father question.
Speaker 8: Generally, I don't know if you if you do have
Speaker 8: this information, how the differenceive performance between PPP projects and
Speaker 8: strictly public projects in Nigeria.
Speaker 2: Is there any trends you observe.
Speaker 8: And how they how they perform long term and could
Speaker 8: you maybe give us a sense versus what happens on
Speaker 8: the international stage.
Speaker 2: Whether big projects have a place or they have.
Speaker 8: Seen better performance in certain contexts, or it just depends
Speaker 8: on just the country itself.
Speaker 2: There for for PPP projects, just as just as the
Speaker 2: situation with U public operator.
Speaker 4: Giving out a transport route for single transport private transl
Speaker 4: bred to operate.
Speaker 2: The.
Speaker 4: The performance or the success of that PPP depends heavily.
Speaker 2: On the public partner and how the public partner executes.
Speaker 4: In Nigeria, the PPP infrastructure projects, they have a bad
Speaker 4: track record.
Speaker 2: They have if they either deliver poor quality.
Speaker 4: They're not delivered on time, they're overpriced, and the only
Speaker 4: if you look at all our public transport infrastructure, most
Speaker 4: of it is government funded, is public funded.
Speaker 2: PPP has not really delivered.
Speaker 4: Any usable transport infrastructure in Niger And unfortunately, the there's
Speaker 4: this mindset that people is the way and there is
Speaker 4: this PPP hysteria going on in Nigeria where everything is PPP, PPP,
Speaker 4: the PPP that and when you look at the projects
Speaker 4: that have been that have gone through that PPP route,
Speaker 4: and yeah, they really haven't delivered in Nigeria. So for
Speaker 4: because like it, it depends on the public partner and
Speaker 4: how the public partner handles that project. In Nigeria, publicly
Speaker 4: funded infrastructure, it's the only way that we have actually
Speaker 4: gotten infrastructure. Yes it's bad, Yes it's we have issues
Speaker 4: with it, but yeah, the PPP hasn't really.
Speaker 2: Done much for us.
Speaker 4: Okay, And that's the trend. Similar abroad is that well,
Speaker 4: it depends on the region. So for different for different countries,
Speaker 4: depends on how the public partner executes the project.
Speaker 3: Yes, it works well in places like.
Speaker 2: For example, if I use the Nordic the Nordic countries.
Speaker 1: Where they have some form of.
Speaker 2: TPP arrangements for infrastructure projects. But the way it is
Speaker 2: executed and handled the risk, I'll think there's one thing.
Speaker 2: The risk is.
Speaker 3: Held in the public sector.
Speaker 2: The public sector assumes.
Speaker 4: The risk of the project and they tend to work
Speaker 4: better than for example, the UK, which tends to ufload
Speaker 4: the risk onto the private private partner, which leads to
Speaker 4: cost explosions and all the other craziness. And the same
Speaker 4: thing with Nigeria and the Nigerian PPP projects. They tend
Speaker 4: to offload the risk on the private partner and then
Speaker 4: we have a whole.
Speaker 2: Bunch of the issues. So in running PPP is the
Speaker 2: public partner has to be has to assume the.
Speaker 4: Risk of the project and then it has to be
Speaker 4: executed properly.
Speaker 2: Right now we right now.
Speaker 4: The way A lot of the PPPs that executed in
Speaker 4: Nigeria with it push all the risks onto the private partner.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that doesn't really give us anything.
Speaker 4: And if he only needs to higher cost projects, low
Speaker 4: quality projects, and we don't.
Speaker 1: Get it, doney, if you guys might, I'll just get
Speaker 1: af you guys, I've been waiting to put a word
Speaker 1: in there. I think to what the closest of the conversation. Now,
Speaker 1: let me get IDEODJ. I've got IODG. Then we'll get OX.
Speaker 1: They won't get ABO, so iodg OX, they don't get
Speaker 1: ABO either. You've got the floor, go ahead, Yeah, thank
Speaker 1: you very much.
Speaker 19: Good evening in my time zone, good morning, good afternoon,
Speaker 19: depending on where you're listening from.
Speaker 1: I hope you can hear me, yes, sir, I can hear.
Speaker 19: Okay, good. I came here to learn and I've learned
Speaker 19: a lot. I also want to appreciate the host for
Speaker 19: bringing up this space. It's quite enlightening.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 19: I just want to drop a few points. One of
Speaker 19: which is I'll touch on the issue of toling. I
Speaker 19: will also touch on the issue of what mode of
Speaker 19: transportation should best be chosen for the economic development if
Speaker 19: I do a way to adopt touch approach to our
Speaker 19: economic development.
Speaker 3: Like most of the speakers.
Speaker 19: Before, I've said, I also would like to agree that
Speaker 19: rather than trying to.
Speaker 3: Put the rail system in place, I think.
Speaker 19: The fonts should be more focused on we are debating
Speaker 19: transportation the road projects, making the roads more durable, more
Speaker 19: usable for people, especially in the rural areas. Where As
Speaker 19: a matter of fact, the transportation system actually solved a
Speaker 19: lot of problems.
Speaker 2: For example, the major reason why prices.
Speaker 19: Of food items will go up is the fact that,
Speaker 19: apart from the insecurity in the country, the fact that
Speaker 19: most of the produce that are in rural areas find
Speaker 19: it's difficult to get to urban centers where they can
Speaker 19: easily be distributed nationwide, and that likely tells on the
Speaker 19: cost of items as well as distributional liability and all.
Speaker 2: Of those things.
Speaker 19: So if the roads system can actually be made to
Speaker 19: function effectively, I think that would also put all of
Speaker 19: that in check. And then also it definitely will generate
Speaker 19: more jobs for the Grand people. I heard somebody say
Speaker 19: that the intolerance system is it is it viable, like
Speaker 19: considering the current.
Speaker 2: Situation of GM people.
Speaker 3: But I believe that with good road network there.
Speaker 19: Will be more economic activities on the side of the people.
Speaker 19: A lot of people will be able to get to
Speaker 19: their places of business, and then of course more businesses
Speaker 19: will come up because like demand. Somebody said earlier that
Speaker 19: he took a night trip and he saw that there
Speaker 19: was a lot of commerce going on at night. If
Speaker 19: you are the kind of if you are the person
Speaker 19: that frequents legos, be me or a road, you will
Speaker 19: see that that road barely slips because both day and
Speaker 19: night people are on the road. You see people selling bread,
Speaker 19: you get to field in stations, you see people still
Speaker 19: cooking food and all those things. And these are the
Speaker 19: things that can also if we're talking about toling, if
Speaker 19: people is the standard of living can improve, toling wouldn't
Speaker 19: be a problem because like again, like somebody had suggested,
Speaker 19: it doesn't have to be it doesn't have to be overblooted.
Speaker 19: Let's it be something affordable, something that can easily be
Speaker 19: charged from the person's account, so you don't even have
Speaker 19: we don't have to form long queues at the toll
Speaker 19: gates to make payments. We just drive through and everything
Speaker 19: is sorted. So yes, the road transport system. And then
Speaker 19: talking about private PvP, that's the public private partnership. Like
Speaker 19: somebody had said earlier, Oftentimes the public sector pushes the
Speaker 19: risks to the private sector, and that in itself is
Speaker 19: one majority than why the private sector.
Speaker 3: Would push back.
Speaker 19: It's like an example of a busy transport, not only
Speaker 19: a busy transfer. There was the time that g u
Speaker 19: Ok and Songs was doing most of the inst runs
Speaker 19: and we used to feel comfortable then traveling at night
Speaker 19: because the security system in the country.
Speaker 3: Wasn't as bad as this.
Speaker 19: But even at that the roads were discouraging. So eventually
Speaker 19: it all boils down to if if we're discussing transportation
Speaker 19: system with reverse to economic development, it all comes back
Speaker 19: to the road network. Basically, the road network, in my
Speaker 19: own opinion.
Speaker 2: Sols a lot of those problems.
Speaker 3: I would yield the microt this one. I just thank
Speaker 3: you for everything that's has been said.
Speaker 1: So for you, that's a good recap. I appreciate that.
Speaker 1: Good recap on that. Let's get I think it was uber.
Speaker 1: Then we get Oxley, who I know who's going to
Speaker 1: go first? Oxley, Yes, yeah ahead.
Speaker 3: Thank you for giving the mind.
Speaker 7: I'll just I would just ask one question and make
Speaker 7: one one comment. So my comment is about the the
Speaker 7: term system a count of places where this is we
Speaker 7: are trumps as they use. I don't think anything. I
Speaker 7: don't think club tub tumb has been.
Speaker 3: Plants anywhere around Niger in terms of the.
Speaker 7: Designs you know of our system, so as I don't
Speaker 7: know how some can be retrofitted into our ligery and
Speaker 7: into Nigeria roads because I don't. I don't think it's
Speaker 7: anywhere in the plan and I tend to be corrected.
Speaker 7: And also the places we have city in Europe, you know,
Speaker 7: they're easy to update.
Speaker 3: You know, they are very you know they're easy.
Speaker 2: Some of their rules at some points go across the roots.
Speaker 3: Wrong on grass.
Speaker 7: You know they are they are, they are quite very
Speaker 7: easy over the most. I don't think that mydea has
Speaker 7: come in our system, Maru, and I don't think it
Speaker 7: gos to to fill that.
Speaker 3: Into our system.
Speaker 2: We have to start from breaking all our roads and
Speaker 2: all of that.
Speaker 3: So that's one side.
Speaker 19: Secondly, I had mostly.
Speaker 3: Said around on the chappoorts.
Speaker 7: I just wanted to ask the question, are you in
Speaker 7: any way just saying that on acts.
Speaker 2: Not by me, you know, because I'm.
Speaker 1: Not sure I have you. I but that there's a
Speaker 1: pot there and it's not it doesn't get love volume.
Speaker 1: So there's something wrong, right, there's something wrong with what
Speaker 1: we have right now.
Speaker 3: By life. I'm not sure you've got that because at.
Speaker 1: That point your audio, your audio is not that good, sir.
Speaker 1: I don't you want to fix that audio? Confined oskally,
Speaker 1: I want to can you fix the audio? There's something
Speaker 1: of the audio?
Speaker 3: Okay?
Speaker 2: Is it better now?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 1: Sir?
Speaker 3: Is it better now?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 3: Okay, So what I don't know whether you got my question?
Speaker 20: I said, are you suggesting are you in any way
Speaker 20: suggesting that on your port was.
Speaker 3: Not is not viable?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm saying that the port is there, but there's
Speaker 1: no volume going to that port. So I'm just looking
Speaker 1: at the status today. It's not functional as expected, so
Speaker 1: there's something going on there.
Speaker 20: I'm thinking that, you know, in the bridgehead where that
Speaker 20: port is, there's so many businesses and there are people
Speaker 20: who railed their containers on the road from Legos No No,
Speaker 20: but that's not the question asking.
Speaker 1: That's not the question. The question is is the port functional?
Speaker 1: The port is not. It's not active. That's the point
Speaker 1: what I'm saying.
Speaker 3: No, you are saying it's not functional because it's not viable.
Speaker 1: No, I'm saying it's not valuable because it's not. It's functional,
Speaker 1: but it's not viable. The port is there, but it's
Speaker 1: not being used. That's what I'm saying. We know, we
Speaker 1: know it and need the port. We know the market
Speaker 1: is there, we know there's transhipment, we know all that.
Speaker 1: But I'm saying that particular federal port in land port
Speaker 1: nature right now, it doesn't get a lot of.
Speaker 20: Volume because I'm thinking there is the night on it
Speaker 20: is not right, so certain ships will not be able
Speaker 20: to come there. And also there is no real there's
Speaker 20: no reallying that lands that terminates at that point.
Speaker 3: I don't think there is any I.
Speaker 1: Hear you, I hear you. You're right. I'm just saying
Speaker 1: that in the end, it's got to be a badge
Speaker 1: can get there, right, and I know some can get
Speaker 1: one of one or two badges go there. The point
Speaker 1: I make is that you would think that that port
Speaker 1: will have more volume to day than it does. That's
Speaker 1: just what I'm saying.
Speaker 20: And the fact I think it's the federal government that
Speaker 20: kept it in that situation there. How I don't see
Speaker 20: any need to make it. They don't see any need
Speaker 20: to get it to work, you know. And and I
Speaker 20: and he had to ask so many reasons, you know.
Speaker 20: I think much of the reason is even political, you know.
Speaker 20: But my word is why is the state government not
Speaker 20: not doing anything about it?
Speaker 1: That's my world, okay, I mean, the one thing that
Speaker 1: has politics. It's difficult to actually get to what's going on.
Speaker 1: But I just like again, I'll say this right, the
Speaker 1: private sector has got to show the way if that
Speaker 1: federal one is not working. Anambra with Delta, with the
Speaker 1: state down here, worry can do something on their own.
Speaker 1: I don't know how far they have, what part they have,
Speaker 1: but they can do something. Delta is now a pc AB.
Speaker 1: Anambra is very very close to the president. They go
Speaker 1: see him and they say, there's something election coming up.
Speaker 1: This is what we need. We need to make the
Speaker 1: sports functional. It helps their state, it helps the president,
Speaker 1: it helps Nigeria. I'm just picking plainly here. So I
Speaker 1: don't see why, you know, it would wouldn't work a
Speaker 1: Delta ports. Our nature port helps the economy of Delta
Speaker 1: and Ambra and Worry. So it's a win win across
Speaker 1: the board that they can do if they wanted to
Speaker 1: do it. So I'm just saying that I agree with you,
Speaker 1: all right, But you have any question for autonomy, Okay,
Speaker 1: let's get then that's gonna be about about last. Boy,
Speaker 1: you've got the floor, then we move to that. Three
Speaker 1: folks go ahead, Okay, thank you very much. Yes, if
Speaker 1: it's to speak up, I'll appreciate it, but I can
Speaker 1: hear you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, So I would love to ask for a
Speaker 2: couple of questions earlier. Earlier when you're speaking Namy, you made.
Speaker 3: Measure of what I was in course of like once
Speaker 3: you get your looks, there's not happening in the western direction.
Speaker 2: There's only the western direction that we can use. That's
Speaker 2: the gain way.
Speaker 21: I really have high holes for from the inland waterways
Speaker 21: from India. I was kind of like I was with
Speaker 21: Carlo when you when you was talking about isn't the
Speaker 21: water I wished to get to as far as.
Speaker 2: Soccer tour in the south, So it's to be surprised,
Speaker 2: and I would like to understand why you say is
Speaker 2: it because of dams the two dams on the Niger
Speaker 2: after locals? And if there is the case, is the.
Speaker 4: Aneral other way to like probably translad bat chase from
Speaker 4: one end.
Speaker 3: To the other.
Speaker 2: That's the course.
Speaker 3: And then what would you say is the impication of
Speaker 3: this coast through highway on.
Speaker 2: Our inland waterways?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 22: Because it isn't a lot duding the highway from Legos
Speaker 22: across unguesslimeters of swamp plant to Colabor. Were you not
Speaker 22: connected with any major city other than labors protacles and
Speaker 22: I think colabor or maybe amotion.
Speaker 3: Well, if they do do that, there'll be tons of bridges.
Speaker 2: Will't those bages be courting over or inland?
Speaker 3: What we would be seen because.
Speaker 2: Just speaking about what the inland would.
Speaker 21: Made mentioned badging containers from Lacky in London to an
Speaker 21: entire don't you think that's a problem?
Speaker 2: And if there would be a problem, how do we.
Speaker 3: Solve that problem? Then?
Speaker 2: Lastly, I knew you were not just into transportation. We
Speaker 2: are also into energing. How do you think solving a
Speaker 2: or how.
Speaker 4: Bids do you think we can use our solving our
Speaker 4: transportation problems in.
Speaker 2: Nigeria to in it fit improve our energy because I.
Speaker 3: Knew that for Nager got to industrialize. Basically, it is
Speaker 3: my opinion. I don't think I'm sitting in the part,
Speaker 3: but we need to solve the energy.
Speaker 21: Problem, the transportation them and maybe still I think still
Speaker 21: thoughting that I am.
Speaker 2: Pretty much aware that will help the country industrialized.
Speaker 21: So how do you take the carrier of transportation issues
Speaker 21: save me sover transportation problem?
Speaker 2: How do you think that can transculate to giving those
Speaker 2: great times this time around? I'm talking about this is
Speaker 2: like pipelines and whatnot.
Speaker 3: Thank you very much.
Speaker 1: Did you get all that you mean.
Speaker 3: To me?
Speaker 1: Did you did you get all that?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: I did?
Speaker 4: That was about last right, yes, okay, yeah, thanks yeah,
Speaker 4: thanks for those questions.
Speaker 3: Yeah. For the first one.
Speaker 4: Regarding of the waterways, the geography of the rivers north
Speaker 4: of local Ja, you have rapids, so.
Speaker 8: You have.
Speaker 2: You have steep drop offs.
Speaker 3: So if you're going to.
Speaker 4: So the river can't you can't navigate via a water
Speaker 4: borne vessel without using lifts or elevator.
Speaker 2: You're going to need to build.
Speaker 4: You're going to need to build like barge elevators to
Speaker 4: take the water take the vessels to the higher level
Speaker 4: and you have lots of dinner rapid succession. So in
Speaker 4: that scenario, the slow down on the cost, the cost
Speaker 4: of building those elevators and the slow.
Speaker 2: Down in the movement of goods, it's not really worth
Speaker 2: the effort. You'll be better off if you build a parallel.
Speaker 4: Railway along the along the river than to transport good
Speaker 4: you reach, you hit a rapid, then you have to elevate,
Speaker 4: you have to get an elevator, hit another rapid, get
Speaker 4: an elevator.
Speaker 3: And so it's just the geography, it just makes it unviable.
Speaker 2: It's to transport via water through the northern reaches of
Speaker 2: the Niger River.
Speaker 4: In terms of the other question of the coastal way,
Speaker 4: the coastal legals Calaba Coastal Highway, and how that interferes,
Speaker 4: how the bridges will interfere with.
Speaker 2: Inland waterway traffic. As long as the bridges are built
Speaker 2: with enough clearance, then it's not an issue.
Speaker 4: But if they don't take clearance for vessels into consideration,
Speaker 4: that is when it becomes an issue.
Speaker 3: So you have of.
Speaker 2: You have I don't think we have a major No,
Speaker 2: we don't.
Speaker 3: We don't have a major.
Speaker 4: Transport water transport corridor with a bridge with a bridge crossing.
Speaker 2: But in other countries, for example, Mozambique.
Speaker 3: Just built a.
Speaker 2: Bridge across the waterway and it's built.
Speaker 4: It's I think it is right now, the longest suspension
Speaker 4: bridge in Africa.
Speaker 2: And in the bridge they cost all because the bridge
Speaker 2: has to be higher. So the bridge has a sixteen
Speaker 2: meter or a sixty five.
Speaker 3: Water clearance, so even the.
Speaker 4: Tallest ships can go underneath the bridge. For for those
Speaker 4: for barges, barges don't require that much height. Barges and
Speaker 4: barkers can go on the bridges with eleven to fifteen
Speaker 4: meter heights. That's sufficient and for other smaller metholds.
Speaker 2: So as as long as they have as long as
Speaker 2: they have a minimum of fifteen meter height clear water clearance,
Speaker 2: then that's not a problem.
Speaker 4: If they did not put that into consideration, that's when
Speaker 4: it becomes an issue for using For how transportation can
Speaker 4: solve energy, I would say the I would say for
Speaker 4: transportation for example, in terms of like in terms of
Speaker 4: real transportation, I always advocate for electrification because it's it's.
Speaker 2: More, it allows you to to operate, it gives you
Speaker 2: law operating course, it allows you to move more more
Speaker 2: traffic for lower for lower cost than operating with diesel.
Speaker 2: And also you have.
Speaker 4: Electric trains, electric locomotives that have lower maintenance than diesel.
Speaker 2: Diesel trains, so you just have lower operating costs and.
Speaker 4: The cost initial cost of installation is not that much
Speaker 4: different from the cost of a from the cost of
Speaker 4: the diesel.
Speaker 2: So but in terms of like.
Speaker 4: In terms of energy for those they need their own infrastructure,
Speaker 4: like we need we need the pipelines to get the
Speaker 4: gas to where it's needed, we need transmission lines to
Speaker 4: get the electrons the electricity to where it's needed. And
Speaker 4: so that's we just have to invest in the pipeline infrastructure,
Speaker 4: transmission infrastructure, distribution infrastructure to SOW.
Speaker 2: To meet our electricity demands.
Speaker 3: And that that can go hand in hand because.
Speaker 4: Railways are easy easier to electrify than to it will
Speaker 4: distribute electricity to a bunch of distributed customers within the
Speaker 4: city because you just have one massive customer that.
Speaker 2: You can just electrify at.
Speaker 4: At designated substation loads along the rail line.
Speaker 2: So yes, they can, they can think they can be integrated,
Speaker 2: but they.
Speaker 4: I wouldn't say the transport I would say, it's the
Speaker 4: other way around that improving our energy infrastructure will benefit
Speaker 4: our transport.
Speaker 2: Transport infrastructure because you need.
Speaker 4: Electricity to for most things, to power report, to power trains,
Speaker 4: for so.
Speaker 2: Many other things. You need ELECTRISTI for that.
Speaker 1: Let's go I have all right, I hear you. Let's
Speaker 1: just do it real quick and just get a few guys.
Speaker 1: I've been waiting to speak. I've got a Onema said,
Speaker 1: I've got a refundo, and yeah, let's do those two
Speaker 1: because they just to make sure they yes. Thank you
Speaker 1: so much for staying with us for the whole three
Speaker 1: hours with the long play podcast that we do. So
Speaker 1: I just want to appreach you so and one mast
Speaker 1: say you've got the floor after you got rapido and
Speaker 1: then we'll sort of come back to tournament and remarks.
Speaker 1: So go ahead to okay, good, yes, I can, You've
Speaker 1: got the floor.
Speaker 2: Oh, thanks very much, tam is cool to cutch you.
Speaker 23: Yeah, in time, might look at your sweet those things
Speaker 23: that like you know, you should actually be a Minister
Speaker 23: transport like twenty twenty five. Let me drop my questions, try, Christian,
Speaker 23: Is you talk about like how two very important principles
Speaker 23: of infrastructure the ads can really move.
Speaker 3: They need when it comes to.
Speaker 23: Nigeria, which is one the Legos to may Do Goree
Speaker 23: Highway and two the Legos on each protac called railway.
Speaker 23: Now for the Legos may Do Goree Highway, what's nodes
Speaker 23: is it going to pass through?
Speaker 2: Like what major cities and towns and whatever. That's a
Speaker 2: question there.
Speaker 23: Then secondly, how those how will like a railway from
Speaker 23: Legos to an Incha to portacles affect the f Fright's
Speaker 23: business because even from your analysis, like that's one of
Speaker 23: the most profitable routes for flights.
Speaker 2: So it's not like you know what what do you
Speaker 2: think around like paol and situation.
Speaker 3: Secondly, the.
Speaker 23: Procurement challenge is when it.
Speaker 2: Comes to projects we've been having.
Speaker 23: I think Cocola has talked about it before. How there
Speaker 23: are lots of projects that cone into forever projects. You know,
Speaker 23: it's been long you actually really hear of brand new projects,
Speaker 23: you know that are really moving a needle.
Speaker 2: It's always like a project all and all and all
Speaker 2: the projects all over and over again.
Speaker 23: So what do you think about that, Like you know
Speaker 23: the effect of how you know, I know it's political space,
Speaker 23: but like it needs to be said how the procurement
Speaker 23: challenges interfered with our state of development when it comes
Speaker 23: to you know, it's infrastructure.
Speaker 2: And my last question.
Speaker 23: You've talked about like the viability of routes, population, closters,
Speaker 23: business activity.
Speaker 2: And all that.
Speaker 23: But have we also you know, I'm from Delta, so
Speaker 23: like the war report and all those kind of things.
Speaker 2: So but have we also have we come we also
Speaker 2: look at it.
Speaker 1: From the angle of.
Speaker 23: Investing in productivity to make infrastructure variable, you understand, So
Speaker 23: like instead of like coming for imports, first of all,
Speaker 23: you've set of like focus on building industrial activity around
Speaker 23: that area that incentivis the need. So like around these
Speaker 23: our eight states, what crossed us? Do you feel that like,
Speaker 23: you know, that makes a whole lot of sense to
Speaker 23: be looking forward to, just like the own airports, Like
Speaker 23: you know, it's linked.
Speaker 2: To oil and gas logistics for example, coy war imports,
Speaker 2: you know, increase the viability.
Speaker 23: Of whatever expansion or whatever by concentrating some kind of
Speaker 23: industrial activity so that it stimulates.
Speaker 3: Some of demand and all that ability.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Okay, thanks, thanks, thanks.
Speaker 4: A lot of those question questions that will uh let's
Speaker 4: see for the first one regarding the legos Medigury Highway.
Speaker 2: The nodes that it.
Speaker 3: Goes through.
Speaker 2: That I think it should that it should go through.
Speaker 3: So you have.
Speaker 2: The currently the legos.
Speaker 4: It will intersect with the legos ibat On Highway and
Speaker 4: then it will start start around Abio Kota, intersect Legos
Speaker 4: about On Highway bypass Ibaton, go through, go through in
Speaker 4: between ak and Adulikitty.
Speaker 2: And then go through I think it goes goes through.
Speaker 3: The cement.
Speaker 2: Bajana, the cement plant in Kogi and then.
Speaker 4: Goes through abaji Ina and then interspect with the Abujakfi
Speaker 4: Highway and goes through Jaws and then it will from
Speaker 4: Jaws and then to Bauchi. From Bauchi, it will just
Speaker 4: use the remaining stretch of the of the A two
Speaker 4: highway that's from Bauchi to may De great So we
Speaker 4: just expand the capacity or the grade of that highway
Speaker 4: and for the entire corridor. The entire corridor just has
Speaker 4: to be six lanes six six lane corridor. The section
Speaker 4: from our courier to two Lagos can be expanded to eight.
Speaker 3: Lanes for the rest
Speaker 2: The rest from our Courage Major grew