1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:02,960 Speaker 1: Over the years, I have made many videos on the 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:07,480 subject of Christmas, talking of course about the Nativity, but 3 00:00:07,519 --> 00:00:11,320 then about everything the Christmas Tree, Santa Claus, Rudolph, so 4 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:15,160 many aspects of the Christmas season. We just are going 5 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:17,519 to put out a video this year about the Master 6 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:19,600 of the Innocence because in some ways we're kind of 7 00:00:19,679 --> 00:00:22,239 running out of things to talk about in terms of Christmas, 8 00:00:22,359 --> 00:00:24,239 and I thought this would be a good opportunity to 9 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:29,000 repost a video that my team thinks is probably my 10 00:00:29,199 --> 00:00:33,359 best explanation of the symbolism of the Christmas story and 11 00:00:33,439 --> 00:00:36,719 the Christmas icon and why Christmas has all the elements 12 00:00:36,719 --> 00:00:39,520 that it has. But this is also an invitation for 13 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:42,960 you to go back. There's actually a list video list 14 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:45,520 of all the Christmas stuff that I've talked about, you know, 15 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:48,359 a way to go back and look at the Christmas 16 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:51,799 videos that I've done, because like I said, I don't 17 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:54,439 like talking about them twice. So we might also repost 18 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:58,119 every year maybe a Christmas video for it to remind 19 00:00:58,119 --> 00:01:00,679 people that it's all there in the old videos on 20 00:01:00,719 --> 00:01:03,920 the YouTube channel. And so please enjoy our video on 21 00:01:04,519 --> 00:01:08,799 why is the Christmas? How does the Christmas found the world? 22 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:35,200 This is Jonathan Peshew. Welcome to the symbolic world. For 23 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,959 those who don't know, maybe who I am, my job. 24 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:42,280 I'm an icon carver, which is a bit strange for 25 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:46,599 some people. There aren't that many icon covers. Actually, probably 26 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:51,400 they're probably in America, like one, I think, maybe two. 27 00:01:51,519 --> 00:01:54,159 Maybe they're maybe two. There's more in that. There are 28 00:01:54,159 --> 00:01:56,239 more in Greece. There are more in Russia obviously, but 29 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:58,840 it's not something that is very useful, very I hope 30 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:02,000 it's useful. Not something that's very usual. Hope that wasn't 31 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:07,799 that little Freudian slipt there. It's not very usual. And 32 00:02:08,159 --> 00:02:13,680 as I discovered traditional art and Orthodox art, you know, 33 00:02:13,759 --> 00:02:17,400 learning my own skill, but also exploring the icons themselves 34 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:21,599 and their symbolism, and their relationships between the icons and 35 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:25,719 scripture and the liturgy and the architecture, and really discovering 36 00:02:25,719 --> 00:02:29,039 this beautiful pattern that we have in our faith. It's 37 00:02:29,039 --> 00:02:33,919 been passed down and kept for thousands of years now. 38 00:02:35,599 --> 00:02:38,159 It's something that I find a lot of joy in. 39 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:41,039 And so one of the things I'm also doing is 40 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,960 I'm on making YouTube videos and I talk about some 41 00:02:45,039 --> 00:02:50,000 of this stuff. I talk about iconography, but also how 42 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:54,120 the traditional symbolism that we have in our liturgy and 43 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:58,879 our icons and scripture, how it actually connects to everyday life, 44 00:02:59,319 --> 00:03:04,319 and especially how this is what I'm going to try 45 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:07,680 to show you tonight, that the Icon of the Nativity, 46 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:12,039 it's not just an image of a moment in history 47 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:15,800 when a young child was born, but it's actually an 48 00:03:15,879 --> 00:03:20,039 image of reality. It's an image which shows us how 49 00:03:20,599 --> 00:03:24,199 reality lays itself out for us. And so hopefully we'll 50 00:03:24,199 --> 00:03:27,400 be able to go through the icon and I'll be 51 00:03:27,439 --> 00:03:31,199 able to show you how profound our faith is and 52 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:34,479 how profound these images are. These images. Obviously, the problem 53 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:35,919 a lot with a lot of these images is that 54 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:38,919 we come to take them for granted. Obviously we've seen 55 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:41,120 them so much that they kind of go into the 56 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:44,159 background of our minds. But it's always good to go 57 00:03:44,319 --> 00:03:48,560 back into them and let's say, reawaken our sensitivity to 58 00:03:48,599 --> 00:03:51,599 see what's really going on in some of these images. Now, 59 00:03:53,599 --> 00:03:56,319 I wanted to start with this just because this is 60 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,319 where we're going. Everybody knows it's November. We're going towards this, 61 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,919 We're going towards Is this this kind of crazy excess 62 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:07,639 of everything for the holidays, This this uh, this celebration 63 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:10,960 of the bells, the velvet, the gold and all of that, 64 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:13,039 and we're used to it. We see it happen every year. 65 00:04:13,479 --> 00:04:20,199 But we, as Orthodox Christians, we have this fast here. 66 00:04:20,879 --> 00:04:25,199 It's it's obviously quite a contrast as we're watching everybody 67 00:04:25,519 --> 00:04:28,560 partying around us, that we have this fast. It's it's 68 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:30,839 I have to admit that it's a much harder fast 69 00:04:31,199 --> 00:04:34,519 to follow than Lent because it's just a lot harder 70 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,519 because there's so much going on everybody celebrating. But I 71 00:04:37,519 --> 00:04:39,800 think we can at least look at why would we 72 00:04:39,879 --> 00:04:42,079 have a fast? What is it that we're preparing for? 73 00:04:42,439 --> 00:04:44,360 Because that's the point of the fast, that's the point 74 00:04:44,399 --> 00:04:46,399 of Lent, and that's also the point of this fast. 75 00:04:46,439 --> 00:04:48,519 What is it that we're preparing for? What's the Why 76 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:51,360 is it such a big deal for this notion of 77 00:04:51,399 --> 00:04:57,240 the Nativity or the incarnation? You know, we we uh, 78 00:04:58,160 --> 00:04:59,920 we always have as Christians, most of us, we all 79 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:01,879 have this trope where we say like, what's the real 80 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:04,240 you know, we we have Christmas, we celebrate, we give gifts, 81 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:06,759 we have all that Santa, we have everything. We ask like, 82 00:05:06,759 --> 00:05:08,519 what's the real reason for Christmas? And we all have 83 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:11,160 the answer, right, right, it's the birth of Christ, that's 84 00:05:11,199 --> 00:05:14,439 the answer. But we need to go more into it. 85 00:05:14,519 --> 00:05:17,199 What's why is it such a big deal? And in 86 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:20,519 the Icon of the Nativity we can see with our 87 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:25,399 eyes the way that the icon is made, why that's 88 00:05:25,399 --> 00:05:30,439 such a big deal, how it shows us this. So 89 00:05:30,439 --> 00:05:32,480 so I put in I put in one one of 90 00:05:32,519 --> 00:05:34,279 the icons that I've carved, just so you can see 91 00:05:34,319 --> 00:05:39,279 for those who haven't seen my work. But so everybody 92 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:45,920 knows the Icon of the Nativity. Does everybody understand what's happening. 93 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:47,759 Maybe I'll go through the elements of the icon just 94 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:50,560 so that people kind of understand what's going on first, 95 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:55,480 because it is a complicated icon for a feast. So 96 00:05:55,519 --> 00:05:58,879 we have the Mother of God in the center, who's 97 00:05:58,959 --> 00:06:03,800 lying down on a mat. She's resting after having given birth. 98 00:06:05,319 --> 00:06:09,920 We have, of course Christ, the Christ Child, who's laying 99 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:16,240 down in the manger. Surrounding him is the ass and 100 00:06:16,319 --> 00:06:18,759 the Ox. By the way, the ass and the ox 101 00:06:19,439 --> 00:06:23,399 is one of the oldest elements of the Nativity. It 102 00:06:23,439 --> 00:06:25,839 doesn't say in scripture that there's an ass and an 103 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:29,519 ox specifically, but it is one of the oldest elements 104 00:06:29,519 --> 00:06:32,839 in the first images we have where we see Christ 105 00:06:33,319 --> 00:06:36,079 in a manger, we see the ass and the ox. 106 00:06:36,519 --> 00:06:39,480 There's some images from the third century where you just 107 00:06:39,519 --> 00:06:42,120 see a manger with Christ and an ass and an 108 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,079 ox on each side. We'll get to why that's important. 109 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:50,240 It's very important. We have the three wise men who 110 00:06:50,319 --> 00:06:57,160 are coming to encounter Christ. Here we have a shepherd 111 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:02,639 who is blowing his horns celebrating. At the top, we 112 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:07,600 have the three angels that are announcing the birth of Christ. 113 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:13,879 Here that you can see it in this one. Can 114 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:18,519 you see what it is? Everybody? See right? That's a 115 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:25,639 star and above the star is a glory. Different ways 116 00:07:25,639 --> 00:07:28,000 of showing it, but it's a glory which shows us, 117 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:33,759 in a symbolic manner, the presence of God. Now down 118 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:40,279 below we have two scenes we have We'll start here. 119 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:46,160 We have the washing of the Christ Child and we 120 00:07:46,319 --> 00:07:51,519 have Saint Joseph who is being tempted by a shepherd 121 00:07:51,639 --> 00:07:58,480 slash devil. So those are the canonical images, the canonical 122 00:07:58,519 --> 00:08:05,399 elements of the icon. Is there before I start explaining 123 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:08,199 some of the elements. Are there some things that you've 124 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:11,519 never seen or that you're surprised to hear of, Like 125 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,000 when I said, Joseph being tempted by a devil. I 126 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:17,560 saw a few people sneering in the audience. Is that possible? 127 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:21,639 Does everybody know that story? Okay? So in the in 128 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:26,800 the tradition, uh, there is, Uh, there is a story 129 00:08:26,839 --> 00:08:30,759 which talks about it comes from the proto Evangelium of James, 130 00:08:30,759 --> 00:08:33,600 which is the the book out of which most of 131 00:08:33,639 --> 00:08:36,519 our traditions for for the Mother of God and for 132 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:39,559 the Nativity come from outside of the Bible. And in 133 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:44,279 that book you have this scene where Joseph is not 134 00:08:44,399 --> 00:08:48,279 permitted to be there when when we're in the Mother 135 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:51,840 of God gives birth. Imagine, we're so used to our 136 00:08:51,879 --> 00:08:53,559 modern way of thinking with the dad, you know, in 137 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:56,000 the hospital, with the with the doctor. But that is 138 00:08:56,039 --> 00:08:58,919 not the traditional way that a woman would have given birth. 139 00:08:59,159 --> 00:09:05,879 A woman would give birth with what's the word in English, midwives? 140 00:09:05,879 --> 00:09:08,039 There you go, Sorry, my French is going to come back, 141 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:12,879 so with midwives. And so Joseph was told to leave 142 00:09:12,919 --> 00:09:17,080 the place where Christ is born. And so then he's 143 00:09:17,159 --> 00:09:19,480 mulling over in his mind and he's thinking like is 144 00:09:19,519 --> 00:09:23,919 this really possible? Is this for real? So he knows 145 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:26,720 he's not the father, and so he's wondering, like, is 146 00:09:27,399 --> 00:09:30,320 this the real deal? Is this really the birth from 147 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:34,399 a virgin? And it's this devil figure who is tempting 148 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,879 him and who's saying like, who's asking him questions and 149 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,720 one and getting him to wonder whether or not this 150 00:09:40,879 --> 00:09:45,039 is actually possible. And then the midwives are the ones 151 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:50,559 who are here watching the Christ child. So those are 152 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:52,600 the basic elements ask for the ass and the ox. 153 00:09:53,279 --> 00:09:58,960 That is also a very very ancient tradition. Also, the 154 00:09:59,039 --> 00:10:02,080 other tradition, which quite old, is the fact that Christ 155 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:05,480 was born in a cave. Now that in scripture it 156 00:10:05,519 --> 00:10:08,000 doesn't say that. The only thing it says in scripture 157 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,080 is that Christ was laid in a manger, which means 158 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,799 that Christ was laid in a food troth for animals. 159 00:10:15,279 --> 00:10:18,000 That's what a manger is. Sometimes we forget a manger 160 00:10:18,159 --> 00:10:23,039 is basically a food troth for animals. And so it 161 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:25,240 doesn't say that he was born in a stable or 162 00:10:25,279 --> 00:10:27,320 born like we know we have these little images of 163 00:10:27,639 --> 00:10:31,039 nativities with Christ in the little stable. But the tradition 164 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:33,480 from very early from the first century, we have in 165 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:37,480 Saint Justin Martyr talks about how Christ was born in 166 00:10:37,519 --> 00:10:41,159 a cave Okay, So those are the basic elements of 167 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:44,799 the the icon, and the way they're laid out, first 168 00:10:44,799 --> 00:10:48,200 of all, can help us understand something about iconography, which is, 169 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:52,720 icons are not snapshots. You know, They're not just someone 170 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:54,879 who would come on an event and just take a 171 00:10:54,919 --> 00:10:57,679 picture of something that's going on, because all of these 172 00:10:57,759 --> 00:11:03,559 events are happening at different times and different places. Right. 173 00:11:03,639 --> 00:11:06,600 The wise men were in the east when they saw 174 00:11:06,639 --> 00:11:10,360 the star, and when they arrived at the place where 175 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:15,200 Christ was, it was like a year later, several months later, okay, 176 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:19,320 and then here's the Mother of God giving birth. But 177 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:22,080 then here's Christ here, and then here's Christ here again 178 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:25,639 being washed. And so what the icon does is it 179 00:11:25,759 --> 00:11:29,879 compresses things together, right, It takes these different elements of 180 00:11:29,919 --> 00:11:33,080 the story and it brings them into one place where 181 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:37,600 you can see things in their meaning. You could say, 182 00:11:37,639 --> 00:11:40,879 how all these elements in the story come together and 183 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:43,919 participate in the meaning. And so it can give us, 184 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:47,399 it can give us a different sense of what these 185 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:51,919 things mean and how they come together. So what you see, 186 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:54,840 for example, in the icon, you see it quite clearly. 187 00:11:55,159 --> 00:11:59,759 You see these joining of these kind of you could say, 188 00:11:59,759 --> 00:12:06,600 these wild opposites you have these angels up above, right, 189 00:12:06,879 --> 00:12:11,240 you have this kind of demonic figure. There below you 190 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:15,200 have these wise men who are from very very far 191 00:12:15,279 --> 00:12:18,799 away and who are probably an elite nobles in the West. 192 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:21,679 They were considered kings who say the three Wise Kings, 193 00:12:21,799 --> 00:12:24,200 and so they're they're the elite, but they're also from 194 00:12:24,279 --> 00:12:28,399 far away. And then you have these homely shepherds who 195 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:31,279 are just the guys next door who are participating in 196 00:12:31,279 --> 00:12:35,799 this event. And so look at how the icon is 197 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:41,000 actually brought together. Right. The whole thing is like a bullseye, right, 198 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:45,519 it's this concentric, this constrict concentric structure. You have something 199 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:50,200 going on in the middle which brings together everything from 200 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:54,600 everything that's around it, and that already starts to tell 201 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:57,399 us a little bit of the mystery of what it 202 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:01,080 is that's happening on in that moment, What it is 203 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,639 that's going on. What is this Christ child? What is he? 204 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:08,240 What is he for us? And the first thing that 205 00:13:08,279 --> 00:13:12,360 we can see is that he's bringing together all these opposites. 206 00:13:12,639 --> 00:13:16,080 You could say something like he's gathering together, you know, 207 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:21,399 all of creation, all of everything, gathering it together into himself. 208 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:24,759 And once you start to see that, then you start 209 00:13:24,759 --> 00:13:27,480 to understand also, when I told you about the ass 210 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:30,039 and the ox, this is a little bit more kind 211 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:33,320 of esoteric. But just bear with me. You'll see how 212 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:38,320 it makes sense. The ass and the ox relate to 213 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:43,120 Old Testament laws. So there were foods in the Old 214 00:13:43,159 --> 00:13:46,799 Testament which people could eat today Jews call kosher food, 215 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,000 and there are some foods that people couldn't eat. There 216 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:55,879 were impure foods. Now the ox is a pure food 217 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:59,039 and the ass or the donkey is an impure food. 218 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:03,000 You're not allowed to eat donkeys. So because of that, 219 00:14:03,039 --> 00:14:08,720 the donkey becomes becomes in the the symbolism an image 220 00:14:08,759 --> 00:14:11,039 for us, actually most of us. I don't know if 221 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,720 are there any Jews here, maybe not, but for all 222 00:14:13,919 --> 00:14:18,399 the all the nations, let's say, all those that aren't Jewish, 223 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:21,320 and you read in the Church Fathers, they talk about 224 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:25,320 this ass and this ox as the and there's a 225 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:28,519 law in the Old Testament which says you cannot yoke 226 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:32,600 an ass and an ox together if you're going to plow. 227 00:14:32,679 --> 00:14:35,000 So it's like that's a very strange law for people, 228 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:37,320 you know, especially for kind of atheist types. They always 229 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:39,200 like that. They want to make fun of the Bible 230 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,080 they'll say, here's this crazy law which says that you 231 00:14:42,159 --> 00:14:45,399 can't yoke an ass and an ox together. But what 232 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,960 it meant is exactly is what I told you, is 233 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:53,799 that you cannot bring together the outside and the inside. 234 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,919 You cannot join with the foreigners, you cannot mix the 235 00:14:57,919 --> 00:15:03,080 pure and the impure. But Christ brings us a different 236 00:15:03,279 --> 00:15:06,480 vision of the world, brings us a different reality, where 237 00:15:06,639 --> 00:15:08,960 in fact he does. I always say Christ is the 238 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:12,159 only one who's allowed to break that law because he does, 239 00:15:12,159 --> 00:15:15,519 in fact bring the ass and the ox together, and 240 00:15:15,559 --> 00:15:18,240 he does it, and we see it happen in this icon, 241 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:20,799 and so the ass and the ox become this image 242 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,039 of how the Jews and the Gentiles are going to 243 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:27,159 join together, and the Church will be born out of 244 00:15:27,159 --> 00:15:30,360 that union. And I'm not making this stuff up, by 245 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:33,000 the way you can read. I don't have the quotes, 246 00:15:33,039 --> 00:15:38,399 but in the Church Fathers they explicitly talk about this symbolism. Now, 247 00:15:40,039 --> 00:15:44,159 the other kind of let's say, strange element or important 248 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:49,480 element is the cave. So why does Christ have to 249 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:57,000 be born in a cave? One of the secrets to 250 00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:59,519 kind of understanding why Christ has to be born in 251 00:15:59,559 --> 00:16:04,919 a cave is if you look at the manger. So 252 00:16:07,879 --> 00:16:11,799 look at the look at the manger. What does it 253 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:20,240 look like? Sorry, yes, that's exactly what. And so the 254 00:16:20,279 --> 00:16:27,240 manger is is already uh tomb. And so this descent 255 00:16:27,559 --> 00:16:31,799 into the cave, this, this, this image of Christ being 256 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:36,679 born in a cave is already showing us what the 257 00:16:36,759 --> 00:16:40,480 whole story is about, what the whole story is about, 258 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:45,679 which is it is already this descent into death. And 259 00:16:45,759 --> 00:16:49,519 the descent into death appears. You know, we symbolize the 260 00:16:49,639 --> 00:16:55,559 imagery of the of the manger as as a tomb, 261 00:16:55,879 --> 00:16:58,840 but the manger itself is already an image of that. 262 00:16:59,799 --> 00:17:04,559 This idea of descending down into animality, descending down into 263 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:09,400 the place of animals, that is the state of the 264 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:13,200 fall itself. Right when Adam and Eve fell in the garden, 265 00:17:13,559 --> 00:17:16,960 God gave them these garments of animal skins to cover them. 266 00:17:18,079 --> 00:17:20,640 And so this idea of descending into the place of 267 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:24,480 the animal is this descent into death. And the early 268 00:17:24,559 --> 00:17:29,799 Christians knew that very very well. They would actually create 269 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:33,319 images which would link all of those things together. A 270 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:38,240 good example here in the these are images taken from 271 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,319 the catacombs. So these are images taken from literally from 272 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:44,720 the graves of Christians. And so what do they represent 273 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:49,720 in the space of death? They represent something which is 274 00:17:49,759 --> 00:17:54,759 akin to what we saw. That is these three images. 275 00:17:55,559 --> 00:17:58,279 This is Can anybody guess what that image of is 276 00:17:58,319 --> 00:18:03,079 of their Yeah, it's Noah's ark. It's very strange, Noah's ark. 277 00:18:03,319 --> 00:18:05,240 But that's Noah's ark. You can tell because you see 278 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:07,599 he's got a bird and he's got this this giant 279 00:18:07,599 --> 00:18:16,079 box floating in water. Who can guess what this one is? Yes, Jonah. 280 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:19,599 And then this one you can read. His name is written, 281 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:21,920 so it's not that hard. So there's Daniel in the 282 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:26,000 lines dead. So there are three images, three images from 283 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,599 the Old Testament which help us see what it is 284 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:34,279 that's going on, this descent into death, this descent into 285 00:18:34,559 --> 00:18:40,079 a cave, this descent into the place of animals, into 286 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:44,279 into the animal existence, you could say, which is that 287 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:50,240 existence of death. And so the image of of of 288 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:53,720 of Christ, it's it's you know, and I and I 289 00:18:53,759 --> 00:18:55,799 talk of that, and I feel like maybe I'm actually 290 00:18:55,920 --> 00:19:01,240 ruining Christmas for you because because Chris, we celebrate and 291 00:19:01,279 --> 00:19:04,559 it's fine, we should celebrate christas we should, but in 292 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:08,440 our icon we have a reminder of something which is 293 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:12,039 far more austere, something which is far more serious than 294 00:19:12,279 --> 00:19:19,359 just this kind of celebration of the birth of a child. 295 00:19:20,799 --> 00:19:24,799 There are other images of Christ, other icons of Christ 296 00:19:24,799 --> 00:19:28,920 which happened underground, you would say, and we've got two 297 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:33,119 of them. One is this one. Everybody know what this is, right, 298 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:37,240 the baptism of Christ, and the other all show later. 299 00:19:37,279 --> 00:19:41,680 The other is the anastasis, which is Christ descending into death. 300 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:45,240 Those two images happen underground, and those two images are 301 00:19:45,319 --> 00:19:49,519 also images of Christ descending into death. So you have 302 00:19:49,599 --> 00:19:54,200 this like repeated pattern from the Nativity of Christ descending 303 00:19:54,279 --> 00:20:01,200 into death and then the baptism of Christ and the anastasis. 304 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,200 Here in this version of the anastasis of the of 305 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:10,759 the baptism, he's actually standing on the doors of death, 306 00:20:12,039 --> 00:20:19,920 just like in the Icon of the Resurrection. So in 307 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:22,599 the Icon of the Resurrection, here's another one of my carvings, 308 00:20:22,599 --> 00:20:25,079 if you want to know another one of the resurrections. 309 00:20:25,079 --> 00:20:27,799 In the Icon of the Resurrection, you see Christ standing 310 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:33,000 on the doors of death. Why why, why is it? 311 00:20:33,559 --> 00:20:35,480 I'm telling you that this is an image of reality. 312 00:20:35,599 --> 00:20:39,640 This icon is actually a picture of how the world works. 313 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:46,960 Why is that so? Well? There there there there are 314 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:52,440 a few things this idea of the Christ child God 315 00:20:52,559 --> 00:20:56,480 told Gabriel told Saint Gabriel told the Mother of God 316 00:20:56,519 --> 00:21:02,440 to name her child Immanuel. And what does his annual me? Yes, 317 00:21:02,519 --> 00:21:08,039 God with us or God in us? Right, So it 318 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:14,839 is it is both. This descent of Christ into the 319 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:20,160 cave is of course this descent of the origin of 320 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:26,400 the universe into the world. And in a way it's 321 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,559 like this, this this story obviously is a total scandal. 322 00:21:29,759 --> 00:21:31,759 You can understand why people rejected it. It is a 323 00:21:31,839 --> 00:21:35,640 crazy story. There's a crazy story to say that God 324 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,599 that the logos, that the divine logos which created the world, 325 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:44,880 would become a person, would enter into the world and 326 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:48,359 reveal himself in this specific moment you know in history, 327 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:53,920 and you think it is an insanely crazy story. But 328 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:59,440 at the same time, it's not a scandal because what 329 00:21:59,559 --> 00:22:04,440 it showed showing us, it's showing us how reality actually works. 330 00:22:05,319 --> 00:22:10,319 It's showing us the mystery that say Paul announced, Saint 331 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,720 Paul talked to us about what is this mystery of 332 00:22:12,759 --> 00:22:16,079 the incarnation, and he says that Christ has revealed to 333 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,920 us the mystery that was hidden for all ages and 334 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:23,359 generation but is now revealed to his saints. And what 335 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:27,440 is this mystery? It is Christ in you, the hope 336 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:32,599 of glory. You know, we say as Orthodox Orthodox people, 337 00:22:32,599 --> 00:22:35,359 and we repeat it all the time. We say God 338 00:22:35,519 --> 00:22:39,200 became man so that man could become God. That is, 339 00:22:39,319 --> 00:22:43,039 Christ is revealing us the manner in which the world 340 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:49,680 actually exists, everything in the world. And when I say 341 00:22:49,759 --> 00:22:51,279 and when you say Christ in you, it's not just 342 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,160 Christ in you, but Christ in everything. Christ in the world. 343 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:58,640 God is hidden in the world, just like Christ is 344 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,880 born hidden in this world cave God is. Of course, 345 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:04,720 there are difference of levels here. We have to be careful. 346 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:07,480 I'm not saying that the whole world is the incarnation, 347 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,920 but the incarnation is showing us how God is hiding 348 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:15,200 in the world and is hiding behind phenomena. And in fact, 349 00:23:15,319 --> 00:23:21,559 without without this divine spark or this child, this invisible 350 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:28,039 thing which is hidden inside all phenomena, the world doesn't exist. 351 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,960 And I'm saying this like, I'm saying this very technically. 352 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,319 I'm not saying it in a way that that is 353 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,559 just I'm not just spouting this off. The world is 354 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:46,440 actually the world is made of too much stuff. Everything 355 00:23:46,599 --> 00:23:52,079 in the world scatters into details. Why is it that 356 00:23:52,319 --> 00:23:55,759 this microphone, How is it that you say that it's 357 00:23:55,759 --> 00:23:59,839 a microphone? Why don't you see all its parts with 358 00:24:00,079 --> 00:24:03,680 out without seeing that it's one thing. There's something about 359 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:07,319 the world, the way the world works, which which makes 360 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:12,160 the world come together into unity. And that's for anything, 361 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:16,799 any object, anything in the world. Everything has multiple, multiple, 362 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:22,519 multiple parts, an indefinite infinite amount of parts. Why how 363 00:24:22,599 --> 00:24:25,079 is it that we can say that that some things 364 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,480 exist and you hear like people kind of talking that, 365 00:24:28,559 --> 00:24:31,519 people say that like it's all just a quantum flux, right, 366 00:24:31,559 --> 00:24:37,119 It's all just flux. Nothing is actually real. If you 367 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,160 take the microphone, you could say this is this is 368 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,079 a wire, and it's a mesh of steel, and it's 369 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:45,680 black paint and it's white paint, and I could keep 370 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:47,759 going and keep going, keep going. I could describe the 371 00:24:47,799 --> 00:24:51,079 microphone forever without ever saying that it's a microphone. How 372 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:54,359 is it that I can see that it is something? 373 00:24:56,519 --> 00:25:00,000 And it's a mystery. We can't totally know exactly how 374 00:25:00,039 --> 00:25:02,400 how it works. But what we do know is that 375 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,880 that is that is the that is the ontology that 376 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,440 we are living, and that is the world view that 377 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:12,480 the Orthodox Christian lives in. Saint Maximus the Confessor talks 378 00:25:12,599 --> 00:25:16,880 about this explicitly. He talks about how hidden in the 379 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:25,519 world are these purposes, these hidden kernels that bring things together, 380 00:25:25,759 --> 00:25:30,319 that make us, make us, actually make the world exist. 381 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:34,960 And so when we see Christ coming down into this 382 00:25:35,039 --> 00:25:39,480 cave hidden in the world, it is an image of 383 00:25:40,079 --> 00:25:47,039 how the world exists. And when we see Saint Joseph 384 00:25:47,079 --> 00:25:53,920 there doubting and asking himself, is this is this possible? 385 00:25:54,920 --> 00:26:00,920 Is this possible that someone can be born of a virgin? 386 00:26:01,839 --> 00:26:08,680 What is he asking? He's asking a huge question. He's 387 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:14,680 he's asking the question. He's asking, how is it possible 388 00:26:16,079 --> 00:26:21,240 for there for something to come out of nothing? How 389 00:26:21,319 --> 00:26:26,480 is it possible for this union between the spiritual and 390 00:26:26,519 --> 00:26:30,720 the physical to happen? How is it possible that we 391 00:26:31,039 --> 00:26:37,519 that the world exists? Ultimately? That is what he's asking. 392 00:26:38,839 --> 00:26:40,880 When we talk of the Mother of God, we use 393 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,920 certain terms which are very very strong to help us 394 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:50,759 understand this mystery. We say that that that Christ, uh 395 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,039 that she that she How do you say, how do 396 00:26:53,079 --> 00:26:59,880 we say it that her womb contained that who him 397 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,559 who the world cannot contain, or that the cosmos cannot contain, 398 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,680 and so she contained in her womb that which could 399 00:27:06,759 --> 00:27:11,160 not be contained. And it is and it is a pointing, right, 400 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,119 it is a pointing to the mystery right there, even 401 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,519 from the beginning of Scripture. It is linking us to 402 00:27:17,599 --> 00:27:24,720 that beginning of Scripture, of this primordial, primordial earth. And 403 00:27:24,759 --> 00:27:28,599 then you see the the the Word come down and 404 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,279 the Word of God which manifests the world out of 405 00:27:31,319 --> 00:27:36,559 this primordial waters. Right this image is helping us see 406 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:40,480 what the mystery is about. And you see that ray 407 00:27:40,519 --> 00:27:43,680 of light coming down, that star that comes down, it's 408 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,680 not it's not an arbitrary that they showed it, like 409 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,720 this ray of light which comes down and points and 410 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:55,279 points to this hidden kernel, this hidden reason why the 411 00:27:55,279 --> 00:28:09,079 world exists, this hidden reason why things exist. So I 412 00:28:09,079 --> 00:28:13,000 think what's important, I mean what's important is that there 413 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:17,400 are few things that are important. One is to understand 414 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,640 what it is that we're celebrating, and to to understand 415 00:28:21,759 --> 00:28:25,640 especially that we we have We've been in a certain ways. 416 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,920 We've been we've been ruined by the modern world. We've 417 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,119 been told that as Christians we believe these things and 418 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,279 these things are arbitrary, that here it is you know, 419 00:28:35,599 --> 00:28:38,599 there are these things that I believe, and they're somewhat arbitrary, 420 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:40,880 and here it is that I believe them. But that 421 00:28:41,039 --> 00:28:46,319 is not the case. What we believe, our faith is real. 422 00:28:46,559 --> 00:28:49,759 It is the things that we that it talks about, 423 00:28:49,799 --> 00:28:52,799 the things that it manifests us. It manifests us really 424 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:58,240 the mysteries of how the world exists. Because the question 425 00:28:58,559 --> 00:29:03,480 that that that Saint Joseph is asking himself, that's the 426 00:29:03,599 --> 00:29:08,400 question that the atheist asks himself too, about the entire cosmos? 427 00:29:09,119 --> 00:29:12,920 How is it possible? Why is there something rather than nothing? 428 00:29:14,039 --> 00:29:16,920 And you can hear you can hear the physicians, the 429 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:22,640 physicist ask that today. It's like they say the Big Bang, 430 00:29:23,319 --> 00:29:26,720 It's like why is there something? How did something come 431 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,960 out of nothing? Those questions, these those questions are being 432 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:37,039 asked today, and the incarnation is obviously have to be careful. 433 00:29:37,119 --> 00:29:39,599 I'm not I'm not saying that this is all the 434 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,880 same thing, right. I'm trying to help you show that 435 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:47,160 the incarnation of Christ brings us into the very manner 436 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:51,000 in which the world exists and anchors us to a 437 00:29:51,039 --> 00:29:54,720 way that we can understand, but not not just understand, 438 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:59,319 but participate in how the world exists, and so what 439 00:29:59,359 --> 00:30:01,880 I would like to see suggest is that that is 440 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:06,480 what we are preparing for. And you know, it's not 441 00:30:06,839 --> 00:30:14,519 totally arbitrary the fact that Christmas Nativity comes at around 442 00:30:14,839 --> 00:30:18,880 the time of the solstice. You know, I don't think 443 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,079 that it's purposeful in the sense that a lot of 444 00:30:21,119 --> 00:30:25,720 people think that somehow Christians just took over the pagan holidays. 445 00:30:25,839 --> 00:30:27,759 Actually I don't think that that's how it happened. But 446 00:30:27,839 --> 00:30:33,759 it isn't also arbitrary because in the time of the 447 00:30:33,799 --> 00:30:38,079 solstice is what happens this secret mystery too. You can 448 00:30:38,119 --> 00:30:40,519 imagine it's hard now because we live in the city 449 00:30:40,519 --> 00:30:43,160 and we have lights and everything, but we can imagine 450 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,200 the sun going down and down and down and down, 451 00:30:46,519 --> 00:30:50,079 and there's this darkness which is rising and rising and rising, 452 00:30:50,279 --> 00:30:52,839 and you think, and you wonder, You think, how far 453 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:54,920 is it going to go? Is the sun going to vanish? 454 00:30:55,079 --> 00:30:56,960 Is the sun going to go away? Is it going 455 00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,680 to end? Is this going to finish? And then in 456 00:30:59,839 --> 00:31:02,839 that that secret place, as the sun is at his 457 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:07,400 lowest point, in that secret place is where the sun 458 00:31:08,319 --> 00:31:11,359 is born again. And we don't see it right away, 459 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,079 right it's a mystery. We don't see it until mid January. 460 00:31:15,119 --> 00:31:17,839 We don't realize that the days are getting longer. And 461 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,160 again that image is the same image as what we're 462 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:26,279 seeing here right. Here's the light which comes down and 463 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:30,240 manifests itself in this secret place, in this hidden spark 464 00:31:30,519 --> 00:31:32,839 which is there, and which will grow and start to 465 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:37,200 reveal itself. And then and then, you know, and we'll 466 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:41,160 go all the way into into Pasca to the final 467 00:31:41,559 --> 00:31:46,480 kind of glorious manifestation of what was already started here, 468 00:31:47,359 --> 00:31:51,440 was already intimated in the very story of the birth 469 00:31:51,559 --> 00:31:54,720 of our Lord. So that is what I want to 470 00:31:55,279 --> 00:31:59,400 encourage you today, mostly to kind of understand how important 471 00:32:01,279 --> 00:32:04,200 it is. And also in the Orthodox face, we have 472 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,039 kept what I believe to be the most complete and 473 00:32:08,119 --> 00:32:12,240 the most profound understanding and version of this in our hymns, 474 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,160 in our icons, in our liturgy, and in the writings 475 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,559 of the fathers. We have kept the most profound version 476 00:32:18,559 --> 00:32:22,200 of this. And so we do have an answer to 477 00:32:22,759 --> 00:32:26,920 you know, the crazy commodification of Christmas. And this is 478 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:31,720 our answer. And we know how deep it goes. It 479 00:32:31,759 --> 00:32:36,000 goes to the bottom of the world. So thank you 480 00:32:36,079 --> 00:32:44,759 very much. So I know that we said that if 481 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,720 anybody has questions, it can be about this, but it 482 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,400 could also be about anything else. If you want to 483 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:54,119 ask questions about iconography or about you know, this strange 484 00:32:54,119 --> 00:33:02,720 fellow whose cars icons. Then the floor is open, yeah, 485 00:33:02,319 --> 00:33:15,039 the underground. Yeah, the two strange disturbing figures. I will 486 00:33:15,079 --> 00:33:16,680 tell you what they are. Let's put them up and 487 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:20,759 I'll tell you what they are. These guys. Okay, so 488 00:33:20,039 --> 00:33:25,400 uh so that is the the Sea and the Jordan. 489 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:32,559 It's actually as their representations of of the waters. So 490 00:33:32,759 --> 00:33:35,799 there's a there's a there's a psalm in which it 491 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:40,039 is said that the sea and the Jordan receded before 492 00:33:40,079 --> 00:33:43,240 the Lord, that they that they kind of made way 493 00:33:43,279 --> 00:33:46,640 for the Lord. And so this is the representation of 494 00:33:46,799 --> 00:33:50,160 the Jordan and the Sea kind of making way for 495 00:33:50,319 --> 00:33:55,279 their lord who's coming down. But there's something more very 496 00:33:55,279 --> 00:33:57,480 interesting about this as well, is that the way in 497 00:33:57,519 --> 00:34:02,880 which they're represented, they're represented as old gods. They're like 498 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,559 old river gods. These are these are Roman like Roman 499 00:34:07,359 --> 00:34:09,920 river gods and river nymphs and whatever. So it's all 500 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,760 these kind of weird Roman gods. And so what happens 501 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:17,559 is that not only are the seas and the rivers 502 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,599 kind of making way for Christ. But the old gods 503 00:34:21,639 --> 00:34:23,880 are making way for Christ as well, and they're kind 504 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,519 of getting out of the way to make way for Christ. 505 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,000 And you have this image. You know, we talk about baptism. 506 00:34:30,079 --> 00:34:32,679 You know, you go in to baptism and then you 507 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:36,719 come out and you person, and you leave something down 508 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:41,639 in the waters. Right, you leave the the the let's say, 509 00:34:41,679 --> 00:34:45,760 the chaotic aspect of yourself or the aspect of yourself 510 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,519 which was not could not be brought into union with Christ. 511 00:34:49,599 --> 00:34:52,199 You leave it down in the waters. And that's in 512 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,400 terms of civilizations, it's the same. We talk about how 513 00:34:55,679 --> 00:34:59,960 Orthodoxy baptizes cultures, right, but Orthodoxy went into Russia, baptised 514 00:35:00,079 --> 00:35:04,960 is Russia, baptized Rome, baptized different cultures. But there are 515 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,920 some aspects of that culture which I got to stay 516 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,320 in the waters. And so this is a this is 517 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:14,039 a kind of very elaborate way to show all these 518 00:35:14,039 --> 00:35:22,039 different things at the same time. Yep. Oh, so the 519 00:35:22,079 --> 00:35:26,639 axe refers to Saint John the Baptist. Uh. There, Saint 520 00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:29,559 John the Baptist when he's preaching out in the desert. 521 00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,519 He says the acts. He talks about how people I 522 00:35:32,599 --> 00:35:35,400 need to repent and need to be baptized. And he 523 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:37,440 says the axe is at the foot of the tree, 524 00:35:38,079 --> 00:35:41,159 and he's saying, basically, the judgment is coming. You need 525 00:35:41,199 --> 00:35:45,000 to repent because soon everything that doesn't bear fruit is 526 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:51,320 going to be cut off. So that's what that represents. Yeah, sure, 527 00:35:54,599 --> 00:35:58,800 what came first? The Bible or icons? What's the oldest 528 00:35:59,119 --> 00:36:04,679 iconist ever do for the Bible? Well, it depends what 529 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:08,239 you mean by icon. If by icon you just mean 530 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:12,679 an image. Yeah, well, for sure, for sure, the icons 531 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:17,000 of Christ as we know of, they came after the Bible. 532 00:36:17,679 --> 00:36:20,639 But it's it's very difficult to it's very difficult to 533 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:24,400 know what was going on because because the church was 534 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,280 being persecuted. We do have some images here and there, 535 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:29,519 early early images, we don't have a lot, and so 536 00:36:29,559 --> 00:36:32,559 it's difficult to know. We do know that already in 537 00:36:32,559 --> 00:36:35,599 the second century there is a church that they found 538 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:39,119 in the city called Dua Europis, which was it was 539 00:36:39,159 --> 00:36:42,440 a home church which was next to a synagogue. And 540 00:36:42,599 --> 00:36:45,519 in that home church from the second century, there they 541 00:36:45,559 --> 00:36:49,079 found two images of Christ, one of Christ healing the 542 00:36:49,079 --> 00:36:51,639 paralytic and one of Christ pulling Saint Peter out of 543 00:36:51,639 --> 00:36:54,679 the water, and so that's what we have. And don't 544 00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:56,920 let historians tell you that that's the first Those are 545 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,760 the first icons. You know, there may be more some 546 00:37:00,079 --> 00:37:01,960 for we have no idea, you know, it's just that 547 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:04,800 because the Church are persecuted, it's hard to uh, it's 548 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:08,840 hard to know, yeh. Yeah, it's just a question about 549 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:14,000 the baptismalnog da. So we do baptize obviously as infants 550 00:37:14,679 --> 00:37:18,920 most but when you're the comms about you a chaotic 551 00:37:19,039 --> 00:37:22,320 part of your existence behind, I have a hard time 552 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:26,039 recomfiling that when we speak of newborn infants or children 553 00:37:26,199 --> 00:37:30,039 or well, let me ask you this. Do you exercise 554 00:37:30,119 --> 00:37:36,320 the newborn before you baptize them? Yeah? You do? Yeah, 555 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,920 so so so even even even even when we're born, 556 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,519 we are still Saint Gregor of Nissa, we do talk 557 00:37:42,559 --> 00:37:45,400 about children as having a certain innocence, that's true. But 558 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,920 Sant Gregor of Nissa talks about right there, talks about 559 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,559 even the child, even the infant who screams, for you know, 560 00:37:52,639 --> 00:37:57,519 his mother's breast is already showing the passions. Uh, you 561 00:37:57,559 --> 00:37:59,320 know that he'll have to deal with later in life. 562 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:01,519 And so it's like we already because we are living 563 00:38:01,599 --> 00:38:05,280 in the body of death. Uh, the passions and the 564 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:11,880 kind of are are there very very early. Yeah, well, 565 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,000 the snakes underneath the door have more to do with 566 00:38:14,119 --> 00:38:17,440 kind of these these you know in the Baptism prayers, 567 00:38:17,599 --> 00:38:20,360 if you've heard the Baptist and prayers we talk about these, 568 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,000 they're great. They're my favorite prayers by the way, where 569 00:38:23,039 --> 00:38:25,119 it's like we chase away the dragons that are in 570 00:38:25,159 --> 00:38:27,639 the water, and we chase away the serpents that's hiding 571 00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:30,159 at the bottom of the waters, and so we they're 572 00:38:30,199 --> 00:38:33,559 this ancient idea of of of these chaotic beings, you know, 573 00:38:33,599 --> 00:38:36,679 the Leviathan or sea monsters that hide in the waters, 574 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:38,719 and they kind of represent all of this, all of 575 00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,320 these things that we exercise, all of these these these 576 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,559 fringe elements of ourselves that need to be cleansed, and 577 00:38:44,639 --> 00:38:46,800 so that's what that is. So he's kind of pushing 578 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:54,199 down the serpents, yea, the sea serpents. All right, Well, everybody, 579 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:56,960 I really appreciate your attention. Thank you for listening to me, 580 00:38:57,039 --> 00:38:59,079 and uh, and I wish you all the best on 581 00:38:59,119 --> 00:39:01,360 this mentoring program. Sounds like a lot of fun. So 582 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:10,800 thanks Father Justin. If you enjoyed these videos and podcasts, 583 00:39:11,039 --> 00:39:13,639 Please go to the Symbolic world dot com website and 584 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,119 see how you can support what we're doing. There are 585 00:39:16,199 --> 00:39:19,559 multiple subscriber tiers with perks. There are apparel and books 586 00:39:19,559 --> 00:39:22,119 to purchase, So go to the symbolic world dot com 587 00:39:22,159 --> 00:39:23,760 and thank you for your support.