WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:11.080 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 2 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:14.160 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 3 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:21.519 written about them. Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every 4 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:25.239 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 5 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:29.559 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 6 00:00:29.559 --> 00:00:33.359 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 7 00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:45.240 Good Evening. After three years in Europe, former journalist Carla 8 00:00:45.320 --> 00:00:49.159 Conti just wanted to settle her family into the suburbs 9 00:00:49.159 --> 00:00:54.000 of Philadelphia. But her high school friend Scott Powell, a 10 00:00:54.119 --> 00:00:58.719 lawyer handling a brutal prison stabbing case, needed a favor 11 00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:02.880 where she knew it. Carla became part of the defense 12 00:01:02.920 --> 00:01:07.480 team and miirred in the terrifying world of federal prison gangs, 13 00:01:07.719 --> 00:01:13.439 penal abuse, and corruption. Then, when she agreed to write 14 00:01:13.480 --> 00:01:16.719 a tell all book on the violent machinations behind the 15 00:01:16.719 --> 00:01:22.120 court case with Scott's client as an inside source, the 16 00:01:22.159 --> 00:01:27.159 stakes turned deadly. Two different prison gangs issued hit orders 17 00:01:27.200 --> 00:01:30.560 against the prisoner she and Scott now considered a friend, 18 00:01:31.560 --> 00:01:36.159 and the journalist and defense attorney were imperiled by association. 19 00:01:38.719 --> 00:01:42.120 Chaine Byrds is a true crime memoir of Carla's tenure 20 00:01:42.239 --> 00:01:46.480 journey to advocate for federal inmate Kevin Sanders and help 21 00:01:46.560 --> 00:01:52.159 them re enter society after prison. But the mission came 22 00:01:52.200 --> 00:01:56.239 at a cost, as Carla struggled to balance her own, Scott's, 23 00:01:56.280 --> 00:02:01.200 and Kevin's safety while writing an expose on the horrific 24 00:02:01.239 --> 00:02:05.400 conditions that led to the shutdown of an experimental prison 25 00:02:05.480 --> 00:02:10.960 program in Louisbourg, Pennsylvania. The book that we're featuring this 26 00:02:11.039 --> 00:02:16.360 evening is Chained Birds, a true crime memoir with my 27 00:02:16.520 --> 00:02:22.800 special guest, former journalist and author Carla Conti. Welcome to 28 00:02:22.840 --> 00:02:25.439 the program, and thank you very much for this interview. 29 00:02:25.879 --> 00:02:30.000 Carla Conti, Well, thank you so much for having me. Dan, 30 00:02:31.039 --> 00:02:35.439 thank you so much, and congratulations on this book, Chained Birds. 31 00:02:36.240 --> 00:02:39.919 Oh, thank you. This is my publication day, so I'm 32 00:02:39.960 --> 00:02:41.719 extra happy to be talking to you. 33 00:02:42.240 --> 00:02:47.120 That's great. Thank you. Let's go right to your first chapter, 34 00:02:47.240 --> 00:02:50.319 and you take us to June twenty eight, two thousand 35 00:02:50.360 --> 00:02:55.159 and eight, and a particularly horrifying scene in this book, 36 00:02:55.360 --> 00:03:00.840 Bureau of Prisons at Water Prison in California and Jose 37 00:03:01.639 --> 00:03:05.000 rivera twenty two year old who really wanted to work 38 00:03:05.039 --> 00:03:07.919 for the California Highway Patrol. You say, and he had 39 00:03:07.960 --> 00:03:12.280 applied for that job. The California Highway Patrol tell us 40 00:03:12.319 --> 00:03:16.240 about Jose Rivera a little bit about his background and 41 00:03:16.439 --> 00:03:20.840 this high security penitentiary, and that he was a unit officer. 42 00:03:20.960 --> 00:03:23.800 Tell us about the circumstances of that day at work. 43 00:03:23.919 --> 00:03:25.840 June twentyth two thousand and eight. 44 00:03:26.800 --> 00:03:31.759 Yes, so, Jose Rivera was a pretty new correctional officer 45 00:03:32.199 --> 00:03:37.080 at Water and he lived in the San Joking Valley 46 00:03:37.280 --> 00:03:40.680 near his family. He did a couple of tours in Iraq. 47 00:03:41.039 --> 00:03:46.639 He was just expecting a normal work day at Water Prison. 48 00:03:47.759 --> 00:03:54.000 The night before, a new inmate had come into intake, 49 00:03:54.639 --> 00:03:58.120 and he was from Guam, and he had a history 50 00:03:58.319 --> 00:04:03.360 of violence against officers in particular, and he was suspected 51 00:04:03.520 --> 00:04:08.479 of a murder in Guam, and his data was not 52 00:04:08.759 --> 00:04:15.360 recorded properly into a database that wasn't even really regularly 53 00:04:15.520 --> 00:04:21.199 checked by correctional officers. So Jose came onto his shift 54 00:04:21.600 --> 00:04:26.319 not fully aware of this situation with this new inmate, 55 00:04:27.480 --> 00:04:34.720 and he was also the only officer on duty for 56 00:04:34.839 --> 00:04:39.439 one hundred inmates on his unit. The BOP Bureau of 57 00:04:39.439 --> 00:04:44.360 Prisons was pretty understaffed throughout the country, and Atwater was 58 00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:48.040 no exception. So he was on his own. That was 59 00:04:48.120 --> 00:04:53.600 a Tuesday, I believe, and there were some inmates who 60 00:04:53.680 --> 00:04:58.519 had gathered. He was selling in a section with Asian 61 00:04:58.600 --> 00:05:02.800 and Pacific islanders, and they had made a fresh batch 62 00:05:02.920 --> 00:05:08.079 of prison wine, and Jose noticed that some of these 63 00:05:08.120 --> 00:05:13.120 inmates who had gathered before the afternoon count were intoxicated, 64 00:05:13.800 --> 00:05:19.439 and two inmates who ended up selling together, including the 65 00:05:19.439 --> 00:05:24.879 one who arrived the night before, were noticeably intoxicated. Jose 66 00:05:25.800 --> 00:05:30.519 started his afternoon count, and everybody needed to go to 67 00:05:30.600 --> 00:05:33.560 their cell and have the doors shut so that they 68 00:05:33.560 --> 00:05:37.160 could be counted. They're locked in for a short amount 69 00:05:37.160 --> 00:05:40.439 of time, and he started that on the lower level 70 00:05:40.480 --> 00:05:44.120 of his tier. And then when he arrived to the 71 00:05:44.199 --> 00:05:49.040 upper level of that tier, two inmates from Guam who 72 00:05:49.079 --> 00:05:54.879 were cellmates, and they were drunk. They had weapons on them, 73 00:05:56.040 --> 00:05:59.079 and one of them pulled out a weapon as Jose 74 00:05:59.319 --> 00:06:01.680 was about to try to put them in their cell 75 00:06:01.800 --> 00:06:06.639 and stabbed him in the torso, so Jose ran down 76 00:06:06.680 --> 00:06:12.439 the stairwell. Both inmates were in pursuit, and he managed 77 00:06:12.439 --> 00:06:15.800 to headbutt one of them on the stairwell bottom. A 78 00:06:15.839 --> 00:06:19.079 little bit of time, Jose made it to the bottom 79 00:06:19.160 --> 00:06:24.000 of the stairs, but then one inmate grabbed him held 80 00:06:24.040 --> 00:06:28.000 him down while the other inmate continued to stab him. 81 00:06:29.319 --> 00:06:34.199 So there were no other personnel on this unit. As 82 00:06:34.319 --> 00:06:37.720 people started to become aware of what was happening, they 83 00:06:37.720 --> 00:06:40.759 were able to see this through the unit door through 84 00:06:40.759 --> 00:06:46.240 the glass, but nobody could get inside because Jose had 85 00:06:46.279 --> 00:06:51.240 the only keys to the unit. There were a couple 86 00:06:51.279 --> 00:06:56.680 of other personnel, a unit secretary and another correctional officer. 87 00:06:56.800 --> 00:07:00.160 They were both females. They came upon the scene as 88 00:07:00.199 --> 00:07:04.439 Jose was being stabbed and they yelled and screamed at 89 00:07:04.480 --> 00:07:08.040 the inmates to stop, but to no avail, and they 90 00:07:08.120 --> 00:07:12.000 had nothing on them like pepper spray or anything that 91 00:07:12.199 --> 00:07:18.120 could have helped the situation. And finally, after a few minutes, 92 00:07:19.480 --> 00:07:24.879 someone arrived with an outside key, and people rushed in 93 00:07:25.480 --> 00:07:29.399 and they got the inmates off of Jose. They rushed 94 00:07:29.439 --> 00:07:33.079 him to medical. He ended up going to a hospital, 95 00:07:33.800 --> 00:07:38.319 but he died of his injuries. And that is the 96 00:07:38.480 --> 00:07:44.360 event that launched a special management unit all the way 97 00:07:44.360 --> 00:07:49.399 over in Pennsylvania as a misguided attempt to try to 98 00:07:49.480 --> 00:07:53.439 corral all these kinds of the worst of the worst 99 00:07:53.519 --> 00:07:57.680 inmates together to try to make the other prisons safer. 100 00:07:58.720 --> 00:08:02.759 You're right that the first. In February two thousand and nine, 101 00:08:03.639 --> 00:08:10.000 the US Penitentiary in Lewisbourg in central Pennsylvania began receiving 102 00:08:10.199 --> 00:08:15.079 the first inmates for the new Special Management Unit program, 103 00:08:15.319 --> 00:08:20.319 the experimental you write s Special Management Unit program, And 104 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:23.920 by the time it began, it was already full of inmates. 105 00:08:24.600 --> 00:08:28.920 Yes, so the powers that be within the Bureau of 106 00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:32.480 Prisons decided that this was going to be a new 107 00:08:32.519 --> 00:08:36.720 program and a way to try to prevent these episodes 108 00:08:36.799 --> 00:08:41.679 with Jose Rivera, and they started sending some of their 109 00:08:41.799 --> 00:08:48.519 highest risk, highest profile, most violent inmates to Lewisbourg. But 110 00:08:48.879 --> 00:08:53.559 the interesting thing I learned doing research for this book 111 00:08:54.279 --> 00:08:59.799 is that what happened at Atwater may definitely have resulted 112 00:08:59.840 --> 00:09:04.559 because the two inmates who attacked Jose were drunk, but 113 00:09:04.679 --> 00:09:08.840 they also had been able to fashion a shank out 114 00:09:08.879 --> 00:09:15.720 of stolen dishwasher parts from within Atwader. And also that 115 00:09:16.440 --> 00:09:21.919 terrible policy where Jose was the only one with a 116 00:09:22.080 --> 00:09:25.879 unit key, and the fact that he had no other 117 00:09:25.919 --> 00:09:29.960 officer working for him. All of those things together contributed 118 00:09:30.120 --> 00:09:34.320 to his specific tragedy and really had nothing to do 119 00:09:35.279 --> 00:09:40.360 with starting a whole new special Management Unit for all 120 00:09:40.399 --> 00:09:44.840 these violent prisoners. It was misguided from the very beginning. 121 00:09:45.080 --> 00:09:48.480 And I have not seen in any of my research 122 00:09:49.159 --> 00:09:54.039 anywhere else where somebody has connected those dots that led 123 00:09:54.080 --> 00:09:58.000 the SMU origin back to Jose Rivera. 124 00:09:59.320 --> 00:10:03.440 Now you have a chapter called the Snowball in Hell. 125 00:10:03.559 --> 00:10:08.279 Pardon me, and this is February twenty eleventh in Lewisbourg 126 00:10:08.519 --> 00:10:12.759 at the Special Management Unit and a inmate named Stephen 127 00:10:13.080 --> 00:10:17.639 OK Trombley twenty seven years old, and you take us 128 00:10:17.679 --> 00:10:22.879 to the G block Recreation unit and explain first before 129 00:10:22.919 --> 00:10:26.840 we start about explaining what happened that day, was tell 130 00:10:26.919 --> 00:10:31.679 us about the practice of the recreation cages and the protocol. 131 00:10:32.879 --> 00:10:37.799 Right. So, once the inmates arrived at the Special Management Unit, 132 00:10:38.360 --> 00:10:44.240 it was a very austere program with mostly twenty four 133 00:10:44.240 --> 00:10:48.559 to seven lockdown. The inmates were allowed out for recreation 134 00:10:48.960 --> 00:10:52.159 one hour a day, five days a week, and a 135 00:10:52.320 --> 00:10:55.360 shower three days a week, and that was the only 136 00:10:55.480 --> 00:11:00.440 time they were allowed outside of their cells. And thes 137 00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:04.759 were designed for just one person. They were the size 138 00:11:04.799 --> 00:11:09.759 of a parking lot, a parking space. Lewis Bourg's facility 139 00:11:10.120 --> 00:11:14.639 was just kind of a crumbling infrastructure and really not 140 00:11:14.840 --> 00:11:20.120 designed to house this many inmates under these conditions, and 141 00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:23.000 all of these men were very violent and they were 142 00:11:23.039 --> 00:11:26.519 on top of each other all the time, and so 143 00:11:26.639 --> 00:11:30.440 this led to a lot of inmate on inmate violence. 144 00:11:31.360 --> 00:11:36.720 Going to the snowball incident, we start with Stephen Tremblay, 145 00:11:37.240 --> 00:11:40.919 nicknamed Oki because he was from Oklahoma, and he was 146 00:11:41.000 --> 00:11:45.200 in a wreck cage, which the wreckages had earned the 147 00:11:45.320 --> 00:11:49.960 name Thunderdomes because there was a lot of fighting that 148 00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:56.320 went on in there. And Okie noticed a new correctional 149 00:11:56.440 --> 00:12:02.240 officer who was coming to unlock the wreckage, and he 150 00:12:02.360 --> 00:12:06.840 recognized him from a previous prison, and it was an 151 00:12:06.879 --> 00:12:12.200 abuser of his from a previous prison, Captain Dennis McDonald, 152 00:12:13.480 --> 00:12:18.600 and Oki, just on impulse scooped up some snow and 153 00:12:18.679 --> 00:12:23.120 slush because it had snowed overnight, and he threw the 154 00:12:23.200 --> 00:12:29.039 snowball at McDonald and before McDonald recognized who he was, 155 00:12:29.159 --> 00:12:32.679 he was taken off guard and fell down, and then 156 00:12:32.759 --> 00:12:35.600 Oaki was able to kind of kick him in the 157 00:12:35.639 --> 00:12:39.440 groin and all the other inmates were cheering him on, 158 00:12:39.799 --> 00:12:44.159 and then eventually other officers came in and removed Oki 159 00:12:44.360 --> 00:12:51.440 and planted him on the concrete, but McDonald swore vengeance 160 00:12:52.480 --> 00:12:56.360 and said in front of a lot of people, who 161 00:12:56.440 --> 00:13:01.960 can I put you in a cell with basically as revenge. 162 00:13:02.279 --> 00:13:05.399 Now you take us to the main subject of this book, 163 00:13:05.440 --> 00:13:11.480 and Kevin Sanders, also in Louisbourg in twenty eleven. Tell 164 00:13:11.559 --> 00:13:13.360 us about Kevin Sanders. 165 00:13:14.440 --> 00:13:20.279 Yes, so, Kevin came from the allan Wood United States 166 00:13:20.279 --> 00:13:26.039 Penitentiary High security really only twenty minutes away from Lewisbourg. 167 00:13:26.679 --> 00:13:30.360 He had been transferred right around the time of the 168 00:13:30.440 --> 00:13:37.159 snowball incident, and his story was interesting. He was involved 169 00:13:37.159 --> 00:13:42.039 with a Hispanic prison gang, the Montanistas, and he was 170 00:13:42.480 --> 00:13:46.080 a pretty high ranking official with the Montanistas in the 171 00:13:46.120 --> 00:13:54.200 Allenwood prison yard, but he refused a hit order given 172 00:13:54.279 --> 00:13:59.360 by the shot caller for the Montanistas to give a 173 00:13:59.399 --> 00:14:04.919 really good down to his friend. And because he refused 174 00:14:05.039 --> 00:14:08.799 that order, that put him in the hat is one 175 00:14:08.799 --> 00:14:11.759 of the ways that the inmates phrase it. He was 176 00:14:11.799 --> 00:14:14.720 in trouble with the Montanstas and the only way to 177 00:14:14.840 --> 00:14:17.639 keep him safe after that point was to move him. 178 00:14:18.080 --> 00:14:23.399 So he got moved to the SMU at Louisbourg, and 179 00:14:24.200 --> 00:14:29.480 when he arrived, it's very typical at federal prisons for 180 00:14:29.559 --> 00:14:33.679 inmates to fall in line with a race based gang 181 00:14:33.919 --> 00:14:38.440 for protection. That's just what happens. You kind of need 182 00:14:38.480 --> 00:14:42.600 the protection of somebody when other inmates want to cause 183 00:14:42.639 --> 00:14:47.000 trouble for you, But then you're also beholden to that 184 00:14:47.080 --> 00:14:49.120 prison gang and you have to do what they say. 185 00:14:50.200 --> 00:14:54.679 So he got absorbed into the white power gangs because 186 00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:58.120 he's a Caucasian, which is a little confusing because he 187 00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:03.000 spoke fluent Spanish and that's also why he kind of 188 00:15:03.080 --> 00:15:07.120 crossed gang lines and was a Montanesa at one point. 189 00:15:07.399 --> 00:15:11.360 But when he went to Louisbourg, he became part of 190 00:15:11.399 --> 00:15:18.919 the like An Aryan Brotherhood offshoot. Foot soldier clan Steven Tremblay, 191 00:15:19.840 --> 00:15:24.600 who threw the snowball, was eventually put into a wreck 192 00:15:24.639 --> 00:15:31.440 cage with Kevin Sanders and Kevin's cellmate, and the two 193 00:15:31.480 --> 00:15:37.080 of them were ordered to try to kill or give 194 00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:43.320 a really good beatdown or exact this hit order that 195 00:15:43.480 --> 00:15:46.679 came down from the shop collars of the Aryan Brotherhood, 196 00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:52.519 and that's how we ended up with that wreck cage assault, 197 00:15:52.879 --> 00:15:57.720 which is what led to assault charges being brought against 198 00:15:57.799 --> 00:16:04.679 Kevin and Kevin's cellmate and then Kevin's attorney, My high 199 00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:10.200 school friend became his public defender and pulled me into 200 00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:13.120 the case. So it all sort of started with the 201 00:16:13.159 --> 00:16:19.200 snowball which led to the wreck cage fight with Kevin, 202 00:16:19.360 --> 00:16:24.679 kevin cellmate and Stephen Trimblay that led to criminal charges 203 00:16:25.559 --> 00:16:29.320 and my high school friend becoming Kevin's attorney and he 204 00:16:29.399 --> 00:16:30.440 brought me into the case. 205 00:16:32.000 --> 00:16:35.799 Let's go back a little bit too, this wreckage itself 206 00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:40.440 and also just sort of the rules of the prison 207 00:16:40.480 --> 00:16:43.159 that you outline and the rules of these gangs, but 208 00:16:43.799 --> 00:16:46.159 ends up being the rules of the prison that these 209 00:16:46.279 --> 00:16:50.720 inmates follow. When you talked about this attack in this 210 00:16:50.840 --> 00:16:54.679 wreck cage with this Tromblay, you also talk about the 211 00:16:54.759 --> 00:17:00.200 rules that forced Kevin to participate in this, whether he 212 00:17:00.279 --> 00:17:03.120 wanted to or not. Tell us about these rules and 213 00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:05.319 how those rules worked in that regard. 214 00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:11.839 Yes, So as Stephen Tremblay was being led into the 215 00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:15.519 wreck cage that Kevin and his cellmate were already in, 216 00:17:16.480 --> 00:17:19.480 Kevin knew that this was not going to be a 217 00:17:19.480 --> 00:17:25.680 good situation because the Aryan Brotherhood wanted to send a 218 00:17:25.720 --> 00:17:29.359 signal to Stephen Tremblay. They were very unhappy with some 219 00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:34.359 of Stephen Tremblay's behavior inside the prison. So Kevin knew 220 00:17:34.400 --> 00:17:39.960 that the Aryan Brotherhood was going to want them to 221 00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:46.119 assault Stephen Tremblay, and he told Kevin told a correctional 222 00:17:46.119 --> 00:17:49.920 officer as Stephen was being led in, hey don't put 223 00:17:49.920 --> 00:17:53.680 this guy in here, don't do this. But the officer said, 224 00:17:54.359 --> 00:17:57.200 this is his assigned cage and this is where he's going, 225 00:17:57.720 --> 00:18:01.359 And the orders came from a higher up in the 226 00:18:01.400 --> 00:18:06.759 prison hierarchy. Kevin knew that once the three of them 227 00:18:06.799 --> 00:18:11.960 were inside and the yelling started coming down from the 228 00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:16.799 top tier windows of Louisbourg Prison that looked out onto 229 00:18:16.920 --> 00:18:20.519 the wreck cages, and the yelling coming from the shot 230 00:18:20.680 --> 00:18:23.599 collar in particular, hey get this guy, you got to 231 00:18:23.960 --> 00:18:27.359 take this guy out, You got to do this. Kevin 232 00:18:27.480 --> 00:18:33.319 knew that if he did not act or pretend to 233 00:18:33.400 --> 00:18:37.160 give a beat down, his cellmate, who had a shank, 234 00:18:37.519 --> 00:18:43.680 would have turned that shank on Kevin, because even refusing 235 00:18:43.799 --> 00:18:49.039 to participate in such a fight is disobeying the gang, 236 00:18:49.880 --> 00:18:53.880 and it's basically kill or be killed. 237 00:18:54.880 --> 00:18:58.640 Now, in this regard, everything is videotaped at this prison, 238 00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:05.920 So this assault is, this incident, altercation is videotape. But 239 00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:09.200 also just tell us about Kevin in terms of his 240 00:19:09.279 --> 00:19:13.599 attitude towards the gangs. Was he considered a gang dropout 241 00:19:13.720 --> 00:19:17.720 or tell us about this concept of gang dropouts. 242 00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:22.759 So he was a gang dropout of the Montanistas when 243 00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:28.519 he arrived at Louisbourg, but he was brought into the 244 00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:33.279 umbrella system of the Aryan Brotherhood, not a full fledged member, 245 00:19:33.920 --> 00:19:39.519 but just someone who was associated with them but still 246 00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:45.559 had to do their bidding. Just that clear association meant 247 00:19:45.559 --> 00:19:50.119 that he had to follow orders. And his cellmate was 248 00:19:50.279 --> 00:19:54.519 a very ambitious up and coming Nazi lowrider, one of 249 00:19:54.599 --> 00:19:57.920 the foot soldiers of the Aryan Brotherhood. So his cellmate 250 00:19:58.039 --> 00:20:01.759 was all too happy to make this assault on Stephen 251 00:20:01.799 --> 00:20:05.400 Tremblay that the air In Brotherhood wanted to have happened. 252 00:20:05.799 --> 00:20:09.920 Kevin did not want to do this, and he mimicked 253 00:20:11.519 --> 00:20:16.400 stabbing motions with his fist, but did not have a knife, 254 00:20:16.559 --> 00:20:21.720 and he was actually found not guilty of having a knife. 255 00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:24.799 They were never able to prove he had a knife, 256 00:20:24.799 --> 00:20:28.799 and he just mimicked those motions to make it look 257 00:20:29.319 --> 00:20:32.880 to the Aryan Brotherhood and everybody else that he was participating. 258 00:20:32.920 --> 00:20:36.119 But he did not do the stabbing that his cellmate 259 00:20:36.200 --> 00:20:37.720 did to Stephen Tremblay. 260 00:20:38.599 --> 00:20:41.000 Now you say that that he didn't do the stabbing, 261 00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:45.359 but we're getting ahead of the allegations that he did 262 00:20:45.400 --> 00:20:49.039 do the stabbing. Like I said, there is videotape of 263 00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:53.240 what happened. So let's talk about that videotape of that 264 00:20:53.359 --> 00:20:57.759 incident and the analysis of that, and then also the 265 00:20:58.759 --> 00:21:03.839 practice of the prison self every fourteen days to erase tape. 266 00:21:04.079 --> 00:21:08.279 Yes, so if you look at the videotape, it appears 267 00:21:08.359 --> 00:21:11.079 that he would be stabbing because he was making stabbing 268 00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:15.759 motions with his fist. At the end of the videotape. 269 00:21:16.279 --> 00:21:20.720 There is only one weapon found on the concrete floor 270 00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:24.839 of the cage, So that was the basis for the 271 00:21:24.920 --> 00:21:28.519 defense team's argument that he did not have a weapon. 272 00:21:29.720 --> 00:21:35.160 And yes, the videotape system at the time did self 273 00:21:35.160 --> 00:21:39.200 erase every fourteen days because there wasn't enough storage in 274 00:21:39.240 --> 00:21:45.279 the database, and neither Kevin nor his cellmate understood anything 275 00:21:45.359 --> 00:21:50.599 about that. If they had, they would have asked for 276 00:21:50.720 --> 00:21:54.880 it to be preserved because there was evidence on there 277 00:21:55.440 --> 00:22:00.720 that was in their favor, especially the very beginning where 278 00:22:01.039 --> 00:22:05.880 Kevin was warning the correctional officer who was bringing Stephen 279 00:22:05.920 --> 00:22:08.759 Tremblay into the cage not to put him in there. 280 00:22:09.519 --> 00:22:14.039 Kevin even used motions like, you know, moving his flat 281 00:22:14.119 --> 00:22:18.039 hand back and forth under his chin, which is kind 282 00:22:18.079 --> 00:22:22.480 of like a cease and desist, you know, universal gesture 283 00:22:23.119 --> 00:22:26.119 telling the officer not to do this. If that had 284 00:22:26.160 --> 00:22:30.000 been preserved on the tape, that could have been very 285 00:22:30.039 --> 00:22:31.359 helpful for his. 286 00:22:31.240 --> 00:22:37.400 Trial, just as an opportunity to stop to hear these messages. Now, 287 00:22:37.480 --> 00:22:42.920 let's get to how the prosecution itself or the stabbing, 288 00:22:43.279 --> 00:22:47.480 this assault of this Trumblay. Let's get to how that's 289 00:22:47.519 --> 00:22:51.440 done and the controversy with the tape itself, as you 290 00:22:51.559 --> 00:22:52.319 just alluded to. 291 00:22:53.640 --> 00:22:59.680 Right, because Kevin and his cellmate were considered short quote 292 00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:03.279 unquot quote, meaning they had just a few years left 293 00:23:03.319 --> 00:23:07.319 on their sentence. That is the ideal type of inmate 294 00:23:07.480 --> 00:23:13.000 that the FBI would pursue charges for. They're not going 295 00:23:13.079 --> 00:23:17.440 to bother charging somebody who's a lifer or who's got 296 00:23:17.839 --> 00:23:21.279 twenty five years, but they go after these inmates that 297 00:23:21.319 --> 00:23:25.680 are short. And Stephen Tremblay did suffer a lot of 298 00:23:25.720 --> 00:23:30.079 puncture wounds, he had a collapsed long he spent a 299 00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:33.480 few days in the hospital. So it was a serious 300 00:23:33.519 --> 00:23:42.640 assault and Kevin and his cellmate were indicted and brought 301 00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:48.960 up on charges of assault with a weapon and other 302 00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:50.279 related charges. 303 00:23:51.799 --> 00:23:55.559 Tell us about your friend and attorney Scott Powell how 304 00:23:55.640 --> 00:23:58.799 he becomes involved with Kevin Sanders' case. 305 00:24:00.599 --> 00:24:05.359 So, my friend Scott was in private practice in Pennsylvania 306 00:24:05.440 --> 00:24:11.519 and he also served as one of the area's public defenders. 307 00:24:13.200 --> 00:24:18.920 And it was his very first federal prison case when 308 00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:24.480 he was called to come and represent Kevin at hearing, 309 00:24:25.440 --> 00:24:34.200 his first indictment hearing, and he had represented clients in 310 00:24:34.319 --> 00:24:39.039 state court before, but didn't know anything about the federal 311 00:24:39.039 --> 00:24:43.400 prison system. And he found it very eye opening to 312 00:24:43.680 --> 00:24:47.440 hear all about prison gangs and orders that you have 313 00:24:47.559 --> 00:24:52.400 to follow, and all of the things that led him 314 00:24:52.440 --> 00:24:58.440 to believe that if a jury heard these things, that 315 00:24:59.240 --> 00:25:02.799 they might see the situation for what it is. You know, one, 316 00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:06.759 certain rules happen in the outside world, but there are 317 00:25:06.799 --> 00:25:09.440 different rules that have to be followed on the inside. 318 00:25:10.119 --> 00:25:13.920 I believe Scott always felt that if all the evidence 319 00:25:13.960 --> 00:25:17.599 could be presented, that his clients stood a good chance 320 00:25:17.759 --> 00:25:18.319 at trial. 321 00:25:19.759 --> 00:25:25.880 Scott, right away, here's from Kevin that there's something missing 322 00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:30.359 from the tape. Right away, He's intrigued, isn't he very. 323 00:25:30.359 --> 00:25:34.799 Much so right, And he always felt that the tape 324 00:25:35.039 --> 00:25:39.039 when it was released to them on DVD and did 325 00:25:39.039 --> 00:25:44.119 not contain anything at the beginning that would have shown 326 00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:48.519 Kevin waving off the guard. Scott always felt that that 327 00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:54.240 had been selectively edited. He really felt for his client, 328 00:25:54.680 --> 00:26:00.079 who was clearly an underdog, and he was willing to 329 00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:03.480 take the case all the way if his client wanted 330 00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:06.359 to do that. And not a lot of public defenders 331 00:26:06.400 --> 00:26:10.799 would do this. I mean, there's usually a revolving door 332 00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:16.359 of pleading out, and certainly the prosecutor and the judge, 333 00:26:16.720 --> 00:26:19.440 they all would have loved this case to be pleaded 334 00:26:19.519 --> 00:26:24.079 out and not dragged through the legal system and to 335 00:26:24.200 --> 00:26:27.680 the stage of a trial. But Scott was willing to 336 00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:28.440 take it that far. 337 00:26:30.079 --> 00:26:33.480 One of the reasons was some of the revelations that 338 00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:36.599 Kevin Sanders gave to Scott. Like you say, he didn't 339 00:26:36.599 --> 00:26:41.559 know anything about the federal prison system, but he got 340 00:26:41.559 --> 00:26:45.720 a full dose of what goes on. And also Kevin 341 00:26:46.480 --> 00:26:51.440 spoke initially about participating guards in all of this debacle, 342 00:26:52.400 --> 00:26:55.480 specifically Captain McDonald didn't he. 343 00:26:55.920 --> 00:27:02.079 Yes, And Kevin wrote letters to Scott outlining all of 344 00:27:02.119 --> 00:27:07.480 these things, multiple letters and sometimes the letters didn't reach Scott, 345 00:27:08.119 --> 00:27:14.319 they were taken. Kevin was basically threatened for trying to 346 00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:18.880 reveal this kind of information to his attorney. Kevin was 347 00:27:18.920 --> 00:27:22.359 even told he was spending too much time with his attorney, 348 00:27:22.359 --> 00:27:26.000 and he was transferred out of Louisbourg at one point 349 00:27:26.519 --> 00:27:29.920 just to keep him away from his attorney who was 350 00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:34.440 trying to build a case for trial. So it was 351 00:27:34.599 --> 00:27:38.559 very illuminating for Scott to hear about all of these 352 00:27:38.559 --> 00:27:43.160 things that happen in the underbelly of the federal prison 353 00:27:43.240 --> 00:27:48.920 world related to gangs and how correctional officers often collude 354 00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:53.799 with them, and sometimes it's foreign vendetta, and a lot 355 00:27:53.839 --> 00:27:56.319 of times it's to help try to keep the peace 356 00:27:56.440 --> 00:27:59.920 because sometimes these prison gangs are the only ones who 357 00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:05.279 can discipline their own properly, and they all just kind 358 00:28:05.359 --> 00:28:09.480 of have an enabling relationship with each other, or they 359 00:28:09.519 --> 00:28:10.440 did at this time. 360 00:28:11.400 --> 00:28:15.480 But Scott, here's the whole story of how this story 361 00:28:15.559 --> 00:28:20.200 starts with the snowball and ends up with revenge by 362 00:28:20.279 --> 00:28:24.119 virtue of Captain Powell and this wreckcage situation. 363 00:28:25.759 --> 00:28:29.480 Yes, we very much wanted to try to tell this 364 00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:35.200 story of the snowball and Captain McDonald. But when they 365 00:28:35.440 --> 00:28:39.759 finally got to the point where witnesses were being subpoenaed, 366 00:28:40.599 --> 00:28:43.519 and this case dragged on for a little bit, Captain 367 00:28:43.599 --> 00:28:48.200 McDonald had retired and the Bureau of Prisons would not 368 00:28:49.599 --> 00:28:53.759 give our defense team his whereabouts or help us find him, 369 00:28:54.480 --> 00:28:56.720 and they didn't even let us know that he wasn't 370 00:28:56.759 --> 00:29:01.359 available until I think a few days before tryle So 371 00:29:01.559 --> 00:29:05.319 it was quite impossible to tell that version of the 372 00:29:05.400 --> 00:29:10.559 story to the jury. And in fact, Stephen Tremblay himself, 373 00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:15.799 the victim, had been transferred to a different prison and 374 00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:21.880 then deported to Canada, not even allowed back into the country, 375 00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:27.319 so he was not someone that we would have called 376 00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:30.319 for reasons like that. But also he was the victim, 377 00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:33.720 and at the time we didn't know what kind of 378 00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:37.240 testimony that would bring. We didn't have the full picture 379 00:29:38.160 --> 00:29:45.920 of the vengeance and Stephen Tremblay's role as far as 380 00:29:46.400 --> 00:29:50.039 what he thought had happened to him and why, so 381 00:29:50.119 --> 00:29:52.319 he would not have been a witness at the time, 382 00:29:52.440 --> 00:29:54.559 but things became clearer later on. 383 00:29:56.480 --> 00:29:59.759 Let's get to how you become involved. You're not in 384 00:29:59.799 --> 00:30:03.400 a atney. You're a journalist, so and you're a friend 385 00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:07.000 of Scott's So how do you become involved in what 386 00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:07.839 is your rule? 387 00:30:09.720 --> 00:30:13.240 So? Scott is my high school friend, and he knew 388 00:30:13.319 --> 00:30:19.160 that I was a journalist and I enjoyed making websites, 389 00:30:20.079 --> 00:30:25.160 and he figured that he needed a website and someone 390 00:30:25.240 --> 00:30:29.160 to write about his client to try to do some 391 00:30:29.359 --> 00:30:38.160 crowdsourcing and raise money for a defense expert. His judge 392 00:30:38.519 --> 00:30:44.759 was not allowing any public funds to be used to 393 00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:49.160 pay for an expert witness that Scott wanted to try 394 00:30:49.160 --> 00:30:54.200 to help explain what it's like in prison and prison gangs, etc. 395 00:30:54.559 --> 00:30:58.359 To a jury. The judge wouldn't pay for an investigator. 396 00:30:58.599 --> 00:31:02.160 It was very bare bone. So Scott reached out to 397 00:31:02.440 --> 00:31:05.960 me to ask if I would write about his client 398 00:31:06.119 --> 00:31:09.680 and put together a website in the hopes of raising 399 00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:15.480 money for Kevin. And that's how I started my involvement. 400 00:31:15.920 --> 00:31:19.160 And then eventually he asked me to be part of 401 00:31:19.240 --> 00:31:25.039