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Speaker 1: Latest interview of Elon muss Tasmanian.

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Speaker 2: Hi, all right, great, and then we got galile A

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Russell from hyper Change what out third Row?

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Speaker 1: And then we got Viv from Who's Falcon Heavy?

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Speaker 3: Hey?

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Speaker 1: Great? All right, Omar, do you want to introduce our guest.

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Speaker 4: Please welcome the inventor of the car fart, Elon miss.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you. Please put that on my grapestone.

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Speaker 3: I love it so yeah.

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Speaker 5: It's kind of crazy that we're actually all here, and thank.

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Speaker 1: You so much for doing This're welcome.

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Speaker 5: We'll all test the customers, fans, and it's really good

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that is finally happening. I remember that I was looking

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at your Wikipedia tweet that it's like this bizarre fictionalized

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version of reality, and I replied to him, wait, why

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don't you come on a podcast and like tell your

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fictionalize version of reality?

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Speaker 1: Sure, exactly, tell my.

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Speaker 5: Fictionalized and You're like, okay, sure, And I was kind

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of like taken by surprise by that. And you know

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the way you engage listen to your customers online, It's

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like I've never seen anything like that from you know,

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CEO of a public company or any executive. So can

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you tell us a little bit where that came from.

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Why you communicate directly instead.

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Speaker 4: Of like having this PR strategy that.

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Speaker 1: Most companies have.

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Speaker 6: Sure, well, I mean it started out. I actually had

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one of the very very first Twitter accounts, like when

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it was like less than ten thousand people, and then

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everyone was tweeting at me like what kind of lat

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they had it Starbucks, Like this seems like the silliest

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thing ever. So I'd leaded my Twitter account and then

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someone else took it over and started tweeting in my name. Yeah,

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and then a couple of friends of mine, Wellie and

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Jason Calcaana said they both said, hey, you should really

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use Twitter to get your message out. And also some

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somebody's tweeting in your name and they're crazy things. So

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I'll crazy things in my name.

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Speaker 1: Did you have to pay them? No?

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Speaker 6: No, they they they I'm not sure who it was,

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but it was for some reason. I got my account

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back great, and and then it was just I don't

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know some of you. It's like just sort of I

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just started tweeting for fine really and my early tweets

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are quite crazy.

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Speaker 7: Uh.

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Speaker 6: As I was trying to explain, like it has the

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arc of insanity is short and that is not very

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steep because it started off insane, and so if it's

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still insane, it's you know, it hasn't changed that much.

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So yeah, and I don't know, it seemed it seemed

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kind of fun too, you know. Like I said before,

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it's like, you know, some people use their hair to

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express myself.

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Speaker 1: I use Twitter. Why did you like Twitter? Some? I

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mean you could use platforms, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 6: Well, like I don't trust Facebook obviously, you know, and

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and and then Instagram is fine, but it's i think,

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not exactly my style. It's hard to convey sort of

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intellectual arguments on Instagram. It's hot on Twitter too, but

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it's but you can't, you know. It's so yeah, Instagram

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is also owned by Facebooks, and I was like, yeah, yeah, deleted, yeah, yeah,

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just deleted it to It's like I don't really need

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to just if I need to say something, I only

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really need to say it on one platform pretty much,

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and so and so if I'm trying and I don't

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spend too much time on social media, so it's just

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like if people want to know what I'm saying, then

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they can just sort of go to Twitter. You know,

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let's keep doing that as long as Twitter is good,

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I suppose more good than bad.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, cryptos cameras are really I understand that they've been

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taken advantage of Vincent recently. I know really Yeah, there's

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like ten Vincent's out there.

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Speaker 6: All right, but they totally they can copy everything and

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just like changed one my.

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Speaker 3: Avadars and then the picture and then they just post

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like right.

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Speaker 1: Below yeah your tweet. Yeah yeah wow yeah, and they

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blocked me to We fight them all all the time.

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Speaker 2: We're always like reporting them, like every day we report

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like ten people.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, I have so many like yeah, exactly, a

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conversations of Twitter, like come on, can you just like

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I think it would take like three or four customer

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service people to just look look at this. It's cryptos

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can block it, and it should be easy.

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Speaker 2: It should be easy. Like my wife Figan Shelley, I

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think you'd like to tweet it. The other day she

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got banned for like replying to one of your tweets

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and quoting like the video inside of it, and then

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she got suspended for like a day.

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Speaker 1: Or something, and I was like, what the heck is

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going on? Yeah, So it's just weird how the algorithm works.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of manipulation. But you're going

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back to the Wikipedia page. You know, it's kind of

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interesting just what a decade you've had. I remember I

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was reading somebody's article. I think they interviewed you in

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two thousand and nine or something like that, and they said,

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you know, if you had met Elon Musk in two

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thousand and nine, right after the recession, they're like struggling

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with the roadster. You know, you never would have thought

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that you are where you are today. You're you know,

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launching astronauts into space hopefull. Well yeah, this year, you know,

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servicing the International Space Station, I mean Tesla with the

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Model three, the model why you know, electrification really without Tesla,

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it would not be where it is today. You see

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where the other legacy automakers are, they're not doing great.

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So you know, looking at kind of like this, like

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you've become this legendary figure and looking at kind of

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like how people kind of see you, kind of the

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Ashley Vance biography or Wikipedia page, what is it that

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really kind of sticks out to you or you know,

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makes you laugh like that's just completely off base.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, well, I think I mentioned that that I kept

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getting referred to as an investor in like the munch things,

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and it's like, but I actually don't invest really except

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in companies that I help create. So I only have

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the only publicly traded share that I have at all

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is Tesla. I have no diversity on publicly traded share

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so and yeah, that's right, quite unusual. So, uh, you

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know what's everyone diverse by agree? And then the only

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stock that I have of significance outside of Tesla is

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space X, which is privately private corporation. And and and

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then in order to get liquidity, which is mostly to

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reinvest in SpaceX and Tesla and occasionally in like uh,

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provide funding for much more projects like your link and

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boring company. Uh, then I'll actually take out loans against

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the Tesla and space X stock. So the so what,

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so what I actually have is is whatever my tail

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list in space X stock is. And then there's about

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a billion dollars of debt against that, so which you know,

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it's it's that this is starts taking to imply that

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I'm claiming that I have no money, which I'm not claiming,

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but it's it's something to make it clear that you'll

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see some like number some big number in like four

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or something. People will think I have the tessent space

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like stock, and I have the cash, and I'm being

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somehow I'm just sitting on the cash doing nothing like

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hoarding resources, and like, no, it's you know, the only

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alternative would be to say, okay, let's give the stock

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to the government or something, and then the government would

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be running things, and that the government it just is

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not good at running things.

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Speaker 1: That's the main thing.

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Speaker 6: But there's like a fundamental sort of quick question of

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like consumption versus capital allocation. This is probably gonna get

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me to travel, But the paradigm of say communism versus capitalism,

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I think is fundamentally sort of orthogonal to the reality

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of actual economics in in some ways. So what you

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actually care about is like the responsiveness of the feedback

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loops to the maximizing happiness of the population. And if

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if more resources are controlled by entities that have poor

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response in their feedback leaps. So if it's like a

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monopoly corporation or a small oligopoly or in the limit,

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I would take the monopolistic corporation in the limit is

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the government. So you know, it's just it's it's this

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is not to say people who work at the governor

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a bad if if those same people are taking and

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put in any better sort of operating system situation, that

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outcome will be much better. So it's really just what

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is the responsiveness of the organization to maximize in the

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happiness of the people. And and so you want to

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have a competitive situation where it's truly competitive, where companies

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aren't gaining the system, and then where the rules are

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set correctly, and then you need to be on the alert

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for regulatory capture where the referees are in fact captured

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by the players, which is, you know, and the players

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should not control the referees essentially, which which can happen,

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you know. I think like that happened, for example with

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I think there's a emission vehicle mandate in California where

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California was like really strict on EV's and then they

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the car companies managed to sort of, frankly my view,

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trick the regulators into into saying, Okay, you don't need

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to be so hardcore about the EV's and instead you say, say,

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fuel sales of the future, but fuel sales of of

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course many years away, so.

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Speaker 1: Forever this is so then, so that's something that they

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let up the rules.

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Speaker 6: And then you know, GM recalled the e V one

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and crushed them in a junk yard, which is against

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the wishes the owner.

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Speaker 1: They all lined up to buy them, and they wouldn't

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let them buy that.

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Speaker 6: I mean, Chris Paine did this great documentary on it,

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and it's like the you know, the owners of the

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the ev one, which why there wasn't actually that great

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of a car, but they still wanted the electric car

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so bad that they held a candle vigil at the

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junkyard where their cars were crushed. Like it like it

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was like a like a prisoner being executed or something

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like that. That was literally like when is the last time

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you even heard of that for a product?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 6: You know, GM is stops the product. I mean what

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I mean, listen, man, They're not doing that for any

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other GM product. You thought, I'm doing the evo. It's

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kind of time times hard to get through these guys,

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you know. So anyway, I think that's a very important thing.

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So generally, where you could see like these oligopolies forming

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or duopolies and then they get effective of price fixing

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and then they cut back in the R and D.

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But Fudgret like kind of a silly one. Frankly, it's

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like like candy, like there's a there's a candy oligopoly,

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and it's like when's the We don't see much innovation

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in candy, so.

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Speaker 4: You're still working on the candy company Still candy?

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Speaker 3: Is that boring candy?

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Speaker 1: Boring candy? He's gonna be boring.

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Speaker 6: I haven't seen a candy yet that's good enough to

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send out. But and it's yeah, but I think I

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think it it's it's there's there's like three companies or

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something that control the candy in the world pretty much.

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It's crazy and dog food, Yeah, there's somebody constructed like this.

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It's this crazy conglomerate and and it's like and it's

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like dog food and baby food and candy, and it's

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like all you know.

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Speaker 1: Rendering, Yeah, hundreds of brands.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, you think you're buying from different companies, but it

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all funnels up to like three companies or something like that.

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Speaker 8: Don't send the rendering food to the candy company.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, a big candy.

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Speaker 6: So you want to have like a good competitive forcing

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functions so that you have to make the product better.

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Speaker 1: Or you'll lose.

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Speaker 6: Like, if you don't make the product better and and

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and improve the product for the end consumer, then then

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that company should have relatively less prosperity comparative company it

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makes better products. Now, the car industry you know, is

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actually pretty competitive, so that's good. And then the good

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thing about it competitive company industry, then if if you

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make a product that's better, it's going to do better

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in the marketplace, definitely.

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Speaker 1: So this is Gene Wilders Whole House.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's amazing, it's lovely. Thanks for having us here

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as well. Thanks you really special.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a good it's a cool spot and it's

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got a soldo glass roof.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, portion too, right, we didn't notice it, but you

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checked it out the second time.

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Speaker 1: I'm waiting for my three. So I'm waiting for a

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version three.

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Speaker 2: Well, whatever is they're going to put on, I don't

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care human motions, right, yeah, looking forward to it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we saw it at the store in Torrents. Actually

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they've got in the stores now. It looks really good.

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Speaker 6: Well that it's actually design such that you don't notice it.

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Speaker 1: So he's like this, look it's old.

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Speaker 6: This is like it's an old house, I know, probably

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fifty years old something like that, and it's quite quirky.

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So if you put something on that was like it

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didn't blend in that it would it would not look right.

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Speaker 1: It would be pretty straightent. And this had a black

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comp shingle roof.

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Speaker 6: So I was like, Okay, let's see if we can

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actually have it weave in and still feel natural, look good.

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And yeah, and I think it's it's sort of achieved

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that goal. But yeah, this is a lovely quirky little house.

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I'll show you around afterwards. It's got all those of

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weird things.

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Speaker 1: It's exactly what is it, Francloyd right now? I don't

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think so.

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Speaker 6: I think it was just built in increments over time

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by probably several people, but that they would have just

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knocked it down and built a giant house here.

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Speaker 1: So it's like, so glad I didn't. Yeah, it's super cool.

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Speaker 6: Really So gene Wild is one of my favorite actorms actually,

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so it's great.

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Speaker 1: What was some movies?

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Speaker 9: So, so when you come up with a product like

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the solar glass roof, I think a lot of people

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misunderstand that, like your goal is to bring these crazy

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technologies to market and really create a change in the world,

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and so I think it's fascinating that you do it

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through companies, and it seems like the fastest way to

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create that feedback loop and to really like get go

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from inventing something to millions of people using it right away. Yes,

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so like like it seems like buying a Tesla is

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almost like the best thing you could do to help

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the climate crisis because you're like turbo charging, R and

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D and products and innovation. I feel like not enough

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people really understand that.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, that is I think there's lots of good things

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people can do for the climate, but just generally anything

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that is moving towards sustainable energy, whether it's sustainable.

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Speaker 1: Energy, create generation through solar or with an electric vehicle.

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Speaker 6: Actually just think just things like better installation in a

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house just is just really effective for energy consumption. But

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but fun is more fun, it's ingratiating. That's mom on

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the motion. I actually got him a little folloween, a

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little mistage mob in the Martian, you know, the helmet

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with it looks super cute.

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Speaker 1: You got enough funny.

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Speaker 4: So did you always know, like you know, business was

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the way you wanted to kind of attract attack these

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problems versus say, you know, maybe a nonprofit or you know,

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working as a college professor or something. I don't know.

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Speaker 6: Uh, well, when I was in in high school, I

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thought I would most likely be doing physics at a

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particle accelerator. So that's what I was if physics and computers.

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I mean, I got distinctions in two areas in physics

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and computer science and those who are yeah, some of

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my two best subjects. And and then I thought, okay,

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well that I want to want to figure out what's

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the nature of the universe, and so you know, go

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try to working with people banging particles together and see

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what happens. And and then these sort of things went along,

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and the superconducting super collider got canceled in the US,

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and that actually I was like, whoa, you know what

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if I was working at a collider, I spent all

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these years and then the gunment just canceled it. Wow,

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and then that would I was like, I'm not going

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to do that. So so it's like, well we roll

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it back a little, like I was trying to forget

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what when I was had like this existential crisis and

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I was about twelve years old or something, and and

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I was like, well, what does the world mean, what's

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it all about?

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Speaker 1: We're living some meaningless existence. And then.

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Speaker 6: I made the mistake of reading Nieture Inchoprenur and and.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, well, don't do that. Not a be a

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little older. And actually lately these days are s rear it.

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It's like, you know, it's actually he's not that bad.

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He's got issues, got issues. I have a question about it,

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but you know, it's so.

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Speaker 6: But there are the hitchbacks, guys to the galaxy Douglas Adams,

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which was which is like quite really, quite a good

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book in philosophy, I think, And I was like, Okay,

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we don't really know what the answer is obviously, so

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but the universe, the universe is the answer, and that really,

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what are the questions we should be asking to better

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understand the nature of the universe? And so then to

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the degree that we expand the scope and scale of consciousness,

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then we'll better be able to answer the ask the

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questions and understand the why we're here or.

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Speaker 1: What it's all about.

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Speaker 6: And so we should sort of take the set of

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actions that are most likely to result in its understanding.

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What questions to ask about the nature of the universe.

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So that so therefore, we must propagate human civilization on

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Earth as far into the future as possible and become

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a multiplanet species to gain extend the scope and scale

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of consciousness and increase the problem lifespan of consciousness, which

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is going to be I think probably a lot of

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machine consciousness as well.

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Speaker 1: In the future.

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Speaker 6: And that's the best we can do it, basically, you know,

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And yeah, that's the best we can do. So, you know,

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and think about the various problems that we're facing or

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what would most likely change the future. The when they

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were in college, there were five things that I thought

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would be I thought these were actually I would not

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regard this as a profound insight, but rather an obvious one,

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that the Internet would fundamentally change humanity because it's it's

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like a humanity would become more of a super organism

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because the Internet is like the nerves, like the nervous system.

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Now suddenly any part of the human human human organisms

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anywhere would have access to all the information instantly. You

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were like, hey, well, I can imagine if you if

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you didn't have a nervous system, you wouldn't know what's

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going on your fingers wouldn't know what's going on. Your

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total knows what's going on. You'd have to do it

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by diffusion. And yeah, and the way information used to

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work was really by diffusion. One human would have to

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call another human or to write them. Yes, like if

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it was a letter you would have to write. You'd

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have to have that letter to another human. That would

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be carried through a bunch of things and finding another

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person would give it to you inefficiently, extremely slow diffusion.

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And if you wanted access to books, if you're not

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did not have a library, you're not, you don't have it.

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Speaker 1: That's okay. So now you have access to all the

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books instantly.

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Speaker 6: And if you can be in a remote like you know, mountaintop,

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jungle location or something and have access to all of

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humanity information, if you've got a link to the internet,

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this is a fundamental, profound change. So that's one thing.

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I was on the Internet early because of you know,

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the physics community. That was pretty normal, although it was

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interface was you know, almost entirely text and hard to use.

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But that another one be obviously making life multiplanetary, making

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consciousness multiplanetary, the change human genetics, which obviously I'm not

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doing By the way, there's a thorny subject, but it

385
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is being done with Crisper and others. You know, it

386
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would it will, it will become normal to I think,

387
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to change the human geno. It will become normal.

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Speaker 9: Like what's the opportunity, Like why is that something that's inevitable.

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Speaker 6: Or well, you know, I think for for sure, as

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far as say getting rid of diseases or propensity to

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various diseases, then that's gonna be like the first thing

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that you'd want to edit out, you know. So it's like,

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if you've got like your you know, a situation where

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you're definitely gonna die of some kind of cancer at

395
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age fifty five, I prefer to have that edit it out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, So I think, you know, edit that out.

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Speaker 6: You know, there's the Gatacus sort of extreme thing where

398
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it's not really edited out, but it's like it's edited

399
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in for various enhancements and that kind of thing, which

400
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probably will come too.

401
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Speaker 1: But I'm saying, you.

402
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Speaker 6: Know, arguing for against, I'm just saying this more likely

403
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to come than not down the road.

404
00:23:07,079 --> 00:23:12,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, so then and then aim really major one.

405
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Speaker 2: So these are all big motivational factors to keep our

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consciousness going.

407
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Speaker 6: And it's sustainable, yes, yes, sustainable energy. So sustainable energy

408
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actually was something that I thought it was important before

409
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the vital environmental implications became as obvious as they are,

410
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,839
because if you mine and burn hydrocarbons, then you're gonna

411
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run out of them, because it's it's not like it's

412
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not like mining sort of say metals for example, if

413
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you if you know that we recycle steel and aluminum,

414
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and because that's just it's it's it's.

415
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Speaker 1: Not a change of energy state.

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Speaker 6: Whereas if you if you take fossil fuels, you're taking

417
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some from a high energy state converting it to a

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lower energy state like CO two, which is extremely stable.

419
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Speaker 1: You know.

420
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Speaker 6: So whereas we will never run out of metals, not

421
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a problem, we will run out of mind hydrocobbins. And

422
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then necessarily, if we have got billions, ultimately twillions of

423
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tons of hydrocobbins that were very deep underground, in solid

424
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liquid gas form whatever, but they're deep underground, you should

425
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remove them from deep underground to the oceans and the atmosphere.

426
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Speaker 1: You will have a change in.

427
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Speaker 6: The chemistry of the of the surface obviously, and then

428
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there's just a certain probably associated with well, how bad

429
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:43,440
will that be? And the range of possibilities goes from

430
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wildly bad to extremely bad. But then why would you

431
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run that experiment? That seems like the crazy, especially since

432
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we have to go to sustainable energy anyway, why would

433
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,759
you run that experiment? This is the maddest thing I've

434
00:24:57,759 --> 00:25:00,440
ever heard. I'm not saying it shouldn't be some use

435
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:02,359
of hydroc commons on Earth, but there just should be

436
00:25:03,079 --> 00:25:07,160
the cover the correct price pay placed on CO two production.

437
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,759
And the obvious thing to do is have a common tax.

438
00:25:10,799 --> 00:25:15,279
It's a no brainer every if I don't know the

439
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,960
ninety plus percent of economists would say this, and I

440
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:21,559
think of physicists, and it's just the you know, the

441
00:25:21,599 --> 00:25:24,200
mark system works well if you've got the right price

442
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:28,920
in things, it's very very simple. And if you've got

443
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a price of zero effectively or very low, then it's

444
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,640
well people will wave accordingly, though, So it's just that's

445
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that's the thing that needs to get done.

446
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Speaker 1: I think it will get done.

447
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Speaker 6: And then the if, over time, as you raise the

448
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price on common you can actually I think encourage sequestration

449
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technologies over time, and and and there'll be a lot

450
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of innovation in that regard and now that's the way

451
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we to do it.

452
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Speaker 4: So you had these realizations about you know, areas of

453
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:08,400
big value and you went and started zip to you

454
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,559
sold it, got you know, twenty million cash. You were

455
00:26:11,559 --> 00:26:14,240
the largest shareholder at PA of Papal at the time

456
00:26:14,279 --> 00:26:16,720
eBay acquired it. I think, you know, you got one

457
00:26:16,799 --> 00:26:22,480
hundred sixty million or something like that. You know, you

458
00:26:22,519 --> 00:26:26,920
have enough money basically for an entire lifetime. Why go

459
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,079
and put your money into SpaceX, which is a huge,

460
00:26:30,799 --> 00:26:33,559
you know, risky operation or Tesla. Why not just kind

461
00:26:33,559 --> 00:26:36,240
of you know, relax.

462
00:26:38,279 --> 00:26:38,799
Speaker 1: Sure what?

463
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Speaker 6: So yeah, basically, you know, I graduated from from from

464
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Penn with basically physics and economics and then that we're

465
00:26:54,519 --> 00:26:59,240
act a road trip to to Stamford with with Robin

466
00:26:59,279 --> 00:27:02,359
rand who is in my class and now it works

467
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:02,759
at Tesesla.

468
00:27:02,799 --> 00:27:08,400
Speaker 1: Actually yeah, he grew up in Shanghai, so yeah, this

469
00:27:08,519 --> 00:27:09,359
was a very smart guy.

470
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Speaker 6: He ended up continuing at Stanford and I ended up

471
00:27:13,279 --> 00:27:15,880
going on Deferma to complate into the semester. But I

472
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:20,160
was going to be studying material science and the physics

473
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,000
of high in age dentistic capacitors for use electric vehicles.

474
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,640
So the intent was I was going to go, Okay,

475
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,680
I'm want to work on energy storage solutions for electric vehicles,

476
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,519
and I'd worked at a company at Cold Pinnacle Research

477
00:27:32,599 --> 00:27:36,200
for a couple of summers that did high energy density capacitors.

478
00:27:36,839 --> 00:27:38,640
I was going to try to do effect me like

479
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:42,279
a solid state version of what they were doing with

480
00:27:44,559 --> 00:27:50,279
It's going to get very complicated from a technical standpoint,

481
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:54,359
but they're using ruthenium tantlemox side. Ruthum is extremely rare

482
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,079
and expensive. You cannot scale that, so like can you

483
00:27:57,119 --> 00:27:59,640
find a substitute for ruthenium? But they were able to

484
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,799
get to uh energy dynasty is comparable to let us

485
00:28:02,799 --> 00:28:06,519
at battery, but with incredibly high power density. So just

486
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:09,000
I can go down a deep rabbit hole air. But

487
00:28:09,079 --> 00:28:13,160
what's the capacitor in an no?

488
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:14,319
Speaker 1: I think with the.

489
00:28:14,319 --> 00:28:18,759
Speaker 6: Advent of high energy lithium batteries, a capacitor is not

490
00:28:18,759 --> 00:28:19,480
not the right path.

491
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,039
Speaker 4: What was your thinking back then though, that made you

492
00:28:22,039 --> 00:28:23,480
think you could be useful for evis?

493
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 6: I want to use advanced chip making equipment to make

494
00:28:28,079 --> 00:28:32,680
capacitors that were precise at a molecular level, so at

495
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:36,759
the you know, just a level of precision that that

496
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,039
was sort of unheard of in in capacitors. Like capacitors,

497
00:28:40,519 --> 00:28:43,279
energy is a function of its area or and a

498
00:28:43,359 --> 00:28:45,680
separation distance. So if you have if you can have

499
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,720
very tiny separation distance, and you can and you can

500
00:28:49,799 --> 00:28:53,440
inhibit quantum tunneling, like so how do you things get

501
00:28:53,519 --> 00:28:56,599
pretty estery? So you're going to inherit quantity tunneling, give

502
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:03,480
very short gap and and then you can in theory

503
00:29:03,519 --> 00:29:07,559
get to very high energy densities you by making capacitors

504
00:29:07,599 --> 00:29:11,200
in the way that you would make a a an

505
00:29:11,359 --> 00:29:16,240
X eighty six processor. And since there's there there were

506
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,359
tens of billions of dollars going into chip making R

507
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,119
and D that I thought there might be a way

508
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:25,519
to make an advanced capacitor using chip making equipment instead

509
00:29:25,519 --> 00:29:26,880
of the conventional means.

510
00:29:28,079 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 8: So is it off the table alter capacity?

511
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 6: It's unnecessary? Interesting, it's unnecessary, It's it's I think I

512
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,839
think it's I think it's probably is physically possible, but

513
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,279
it's it's unnecessary at this point.

514
00:29:42,839 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 4: I mean, I know a lot of people were talking

515
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:46,640
about Maxwell and they had been working on some stuff

516
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:47,759
with capacitors.

517
00:29:47,759 --> 00:29:49,279
Speaker 6: The funny thing is that when I was doing the

518
00:29:50,359 --> 00:29:55,039
my intentions that this uh mass capacity company called Pink Research,

519
00:29:55,079 --> 00:29:57,680
which was in Less Godess. We talked a lot about

520
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:01,240
Maxwell and Maxwell is also trying to kags to Capacitor.

521
00:30:01,319 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 1: Is no Tesla a required Maxwell?

522
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 8: Yeah, Wow, we're looking forward to that investorday.

523
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's kind of a big deal. That's great. Great

524
00:30:11,599 --> 00:30:11,880
to know.

525
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:18,119
Speaker 6: Maxwell has a bunch of technologies that are that where

526
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,000
if they're applied in the right way, I think can

527
00:30:21,079 --> 00:30:22,720
be have a very big.

528
00:30:22,559 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 1: Impact, Like the dry electrode stuff that every one of them.

529
00:30:27,559 --> 00:30:28,160
That's a big deal.

530
00:30:28,559 --> 00:30:35,279
Speaker 6: Yeah, for sure, much much bigger deal than it may seem. Yeah,

531
00:30:35,559 --> 00:30:38,480
and there's a few other things with the space that

532
00:30:38,519 --> 00:30:40,160
it takes up for the ovens that you know, for

533
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,720
the current technology, you can save all that that real

534
00:30:42,799 --> 00:30:43,319
estate space.

535
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:47,559
Speaker 2: Now that's one aspect. And the cost reduction, the weight savings,

536
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:49,720
I mean, there's so many pluses.

537
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 6: Right, Yes, and there's many things that but I left

538
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,680
wait until you know whatever battery day. Sure, hope in

539
00:30:57,720 --> 00:30:59,359
a few months, but I think we've had some pretty

540
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:00,279
exciting things to share.

541
00:31:02,119 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 4: So Galley's very exciting.

542
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 9: Yeah, it seems like the pace of the innovation of

543
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,519
the battery things just taken off like since you guys

544
00:31:09,519 --> 00:31:12,359
have more capital and being able to like have the

545
00:31:12,359 --> 00:31:14,799
Giga factory be vertically integrated. It seems like know of

546
00:31:14,839 --> 00:31:16,799
their car company is making that many batteries, so they're

547
00:31:16,799 --> 00:31:18,440
not even thinking about what comes next.

548
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 1: But they're not even you know, man, not even come

549
00:31:23,799 --> 00:31:26,799
cool at all. I can two hundred and one mile

550
00:31:27,359 --> 00:31:27,960
not not either.

551
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:32,559
Speaker 6: That's a joke, Yeah, no, it's really, it's true. The

552
00:31:32,799 --> 00:31:36,519
other countries just really want to outsourced battery technology, not

553
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,240
even not even making the like this.

554
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 1: Battery module and cell.

555
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 6: But they're they're obviously outs hosting the cells, but even

556
00:31:43,279 --> 00:31:45,359
out sourcing the modules in the packs. Yeah, you know,

557
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:49,400
and it's like they're really not thinking about fundamental chemistry improvements.

558
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:53,559
And there's some pretty deep wizardry at TELSA.

559
00:31:53,279 --> 00:31:53,839
Speaker 1: On this front.

560
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 6: I should say a bit about like like electric vehicles,

561
00:31:57,039 --> 00:31:59,640
and it was sustainable energy in general.

562
00:32:00,119 --> 00:32:01,079
Speaker 1: I said it was.

563
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 6: It was pretty I think obvious to not not just me,

564
00:32:04,119 --> 00:32:06,160
to me, to a lot of people even go back

565
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:10,319
thirty years or or longer, that we must have a

566
00:32:10,359 --> 00:32:13,200
sustainable energy solution. In fact, it's it's toto logical, if

567
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,839
it's un if it's if it's not sustainable, we must

568
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,680
at some point find an alternative to it. And so

569
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:24,279
even if there were no environmental impact to the sort

570
00:32:24,279 --> 00:32:26,839
of fossil fuel economy, then we would run out of

571
00:32:26,839 --> 00:32:29,920
them and then we would have economic collapse and well,

572
00:32:30,319 --> 00:32:33,359
civilization would fall apart. So so that that that was

573
00:32:33,359 --> 00:32:36,200
actually my initial motivation for electric vehicles is like, Okay,

574
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,319
we've got to have a solution that does not require

575
00:32:40,799 --> 00:32:45,559
mining hydrocarbons, that that that is sustainable in the long term.

576
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,160
It was not actually initially from an environmental standpoint, because

577
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,960
I had not realized the gravity of the environmental situation

578
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:56,119
at that time, and I thought, actually, for sure by

579
00:32:56,119 --> 00:32:59,119
now we'd have electric cars, like for sure, but back

580
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,319
on the moon. Yeah, yeah, totally. Why are we not

581
00:33:01,359 --> 00:33:06,519
back on the moon? It's insane, insane. If you sold

582
00:33:06,559 --> 00:33:10,480
something in sixty nine that, yeah, that would not be

583
00:33:10,519 --> 00:33:13,880
back on the moon, And in like twenty twenty, they'd

584
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,440
be like you probably might have getten punched, honestly, because

585
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:20,960
they'd be like, you're just it's like so insultingly rude

586
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:21,839
to if youture.

587
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:25,839
Speaker 1: Because they'd be like, what is wrong with you?

588
00:33:26,119 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 6: It's encouraging encouraging them, Yeah, yeah, yeah, So it's like,

589
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:31,519
we should have a sure of a base on the Moon,

590
00:33:31,519 --> 00:33:34,079
we should have sent people to Mars. None of that's occurred.

591
00:33:34,759 --> 00:33:38,480
You know, it's gonna that We've got to make that happen. Yeah,

592
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:40,839
So it's a bit on the sustainability front. It was really,

593
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,720
like I said, not so much initially, not so much

594
00:33:43,759 --> 00:33:47,880
from an environmental standpoint, but from the necessity of replacing

595
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:52,640
a finite resource in order to ensure that civilization could

596
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,720
continue to grow. And then the urgency of it became

597
00:33:55,839 --> 00:33:58,519
much more obvious, like, wow, we're just really better do

598
00:33:58,599 --> 00:34:03,319
something because the environmental stuff is becoming quite serious, and

599
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:07,839
the the the inertia of large existing companies is just

600
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,079
hard to appreciate that they just want to keep doing

601
00:34:11,119 --> 00:34:15,519
the same thing and maybe five percent different every year,

602
00:34:15,679 --> 00:34:22,719
maybe five percent difference. Big companies had changed. So so

603
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:26,199
then the you know, the time that Tesla you know,

604
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,480
was creator, you know, there was no no one was

605
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,960
doing electric cars. They weren't really startups. There weren't big

606
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:38,000
car companies weren't doing it. Uh GM tot cancel their

607
00:34:38,039 --> 00:34:38,920
EV programs.

608
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,679
Speaker 1: Now everybody's doing it right now, like.

609
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:50,679
Speaker 7: And their mom, the mom is doing it, and we

610
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,039
will all like to congratulate about the take off.

611
00:34:53,119 --> 00:34:55,079
Speaker 1: Actually three one, yeah.

612
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's and I would like to know, like why

613
00:34:58,559 --> 00:35:02,760
China is the best country to build a first foreign

614
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:03,639
Giga factory.

615
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:09,840
Speaker 6: China is the biggest consumer cars in the world, so it's.

616
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:14,519
Speaker 1: So that that that alone would be enough to do it.

617
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 6: I think also there was a lot of uncertainty about

618
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:22,280
the tariffs, and and you know, it's like potentially would

619
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,440
be unable to sell effectively in China if we did

620
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,320
not have a factory locally, or at least unable to

621
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:31,280
sell at prices that weren't extremely high. But those are

622
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:33,599
really the two two main reasons.

623
00:35:34,559 --> 00:35:34,920
Speaker 1: I think that.

624
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:40,320
Speaker 6: But I think there's also a third important reason that

625
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:44,440
that there's just so much talent and drive in China

626
00:35:44,519 --> 00:35:46,880
that I think it's a good place to do a

627
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:52,599
lot of things. And the evidence is there in the

628
00:35:52,639 --> 00:35:58,320
incredible progress in the factory, which was built with very

629
00:35:58,559 --> 00:36:02,880
very high quality and very short period of time, and

630
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,519
that the car is coming out of of Shanghai are

631
00:36:08,079 --> 00:36:09,800
already very high quality.

632
00:36:10,119 --> 00:36:12,880
Speaker 1: I can't tell. And the run rate is amazing.

633
00:36:13,559 --> 00:36:16,079
Speaker 2: And I love that they used the Chinese badge as well.

634
00:36:16,079 --> 00:36:18,639
It's like a simple pride and you know made made

635
00:36:18,679 --> 00:36:19,079
in China.

636
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's cool, it's super cool.

637
00:36:21,199 --> 00:36:24,400
Speaker 4: How did Tesla manage to get the first wholly owned

638
00:36:24,639 --> 00:36:27,239
foreign car company in China? I mean a factory?

639
00:36:28,639 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 6: Uh well, I've went to China many times and they

640
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:35,800
kept saying that we would have to do this, you know,

641
00:36:36,119 --> 00:36:41,559
majority local venture. And I said that, well, we had

642
00:36:41,599 --> 00:36:43,280
to partner with someone, and say, well, oh, you know,

643
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:45,599
we're a little late to the dance here, you know,

644
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:50,960
so who do we partner with? You know, there's nobody,

645
00:36:51,119 --> 00:36:54,280
nobody left, and uh and also we're just a little company,

646
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:59,280
so you know, we're you know, like because they should

647
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:00,599
get married, like we're young.

648
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 1: That's a good example.

649
00:37:07,159 --> 00:37:11,119
Speaker 6: But yeah, you know, and then so then you know,

650
00:37:11,199 --> 00:37:13,679
but and then also is pointing out like you know,

651
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:16,559
there's so many Chinese companies that are going to you know,

652
00:37:16,559 --> 00:37:19,639
that are establishing factories or in the US, and there's

653
00:37:19,679 --> 00:37:22,840
like Verity Future and that kind of thing, and that's

654
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,280
known by them. And so I mean, to be fair,

655
00:37:25,519 --> 00:37:28,400
it should be allowed that a marine car company should

656
00:37:28,599 --> 00:37:30,639
be able to own its factory in China as well.

657
00:37:31,559 --> 00:37:34,719
And so we talked to him over and over of

658
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:41,639
years and they eventually said Okay, well.

659
00:37:39,039 --> 00:37:40,159
Speaker 1: We'll change law.

660
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 6: They changed law, but now those other companies can do

661
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,280
it as well, so it's not just limited to Tesla.

662
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,360
Speaker 9: And how much of that production hell like learnings have

663
00:37:50,519 --> 00:37:52,480
really enabled because one of the I don't want to

664
00:37:52,519 --> 00:37:54,239
like to bring up Capex, but one of my favorite

665
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:56,280
things is the stats and the shareholder letter. It's so

666
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,639
much cheaper, not only faster, but it seems like that

667
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:03,320
you have learned so much from this the Fremont factory,

668
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:05,599
and that really enabled like kind of a turbo charged

669
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:06,920
build for Shanghai.

670
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:10,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, the.

671
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:15,360
Speaker 6: I think the big difference is is like we are

672
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:21,320
way less dumb than we were, so the the fullishness

673
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:26,360
of capital expenditures was very high and it's less high.

674
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:30,320
Speaker 1: Know, and then.

675
00:38:30,599 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 6: The the Shanghai factory, we designed out all of or

676
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:39,199
as much of the foolishness as we could think of

677
00:38:40,039 --> 00:38:44,960
that exists at Fremont and at Nevada. So we just

678
00:38:45,199 --> 00:38:49,119
made a lot of decisions that weren't smart and and

679
00:38:49,199 --> 00:38:52,280
we designed those out so such the production line is

680
00:38:52,639 --> 00:38:58,760
much simpler, So it's much simpler and better implemented. And

681
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:03,400
then we also found like that in most cases the

682
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:07,199
suppliers were more efficient in China as well than in

683
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:12,239
the US, so, but we've also managed to get a

684
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:17,440
lot more output from existing equipment in the US as well.

685
00:39:17,519 --> 00:39:23,920
So the Model three bodyline in Fremont, for example, was

686
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,559
only ever meant to do five thousand cars Model three

687
00:39:27,599 --> 00:39:31,239
is a week and it's doing seven thousand nice, nice

688
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:35,559
and with with with with turning off a bunch of

689
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:42,559
unnecessary things that were being done. So it I mean,

690
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:44,840
there's just there's a lot of bullish things that were

691
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:50,440
doing so and we changed some of the designs and

692
00:39:50,639 --> 00:39:54,760
made it easier to would it's it's like hundreds of

693
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:58,840
little things to make it, to make it easier to build,

694
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,280
and and so being able to get forty percent more

695
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,719
output off the same line obviously makes it makes a

696
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:09,840
big difference, and while while reducing the cost of the module,

697
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:12,280
cost of production and I and I think improving the

698
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:17,039
quality of the car. So it's just all good, good stuff.

699
00:40:17,039 --> 00:40:19,400
It was the result of a ton of hard work

700
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:24,880
by a lot of people. So yeah, it was kind

701
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:27,840
of necessary in that there was we didn't really have

702
00:40:28,519 --> 00:40:31,800
a place to put a second molitary body line. So

703
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:33,559
it's like you either we either make with one go

704
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:38,599
faster or we will not be able to achieve production.

705
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:45,480
But the Model three body line in Shanghai is much

706
00:40:45,559 --> 00:40:48,599
much simpler than the one in and I said that

707
00:40:48,639 --> 00:40:51,280
a good way then, because it has the same the

708
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:56,360
same end result. So if if you know and and

709
00:40:56,440 --> 00:41:00,679
but but it's much easier to understand this just getting

710
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:04,880
rid of unnecessary movement. There's a lot of unnecessary movement

711
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:08,679
in the Freemont body line, but not in Shanghai.

712
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:12,760
Speaker 4: So you guys said in the production letter that you

713
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:16,079
just started battery production in Shanghai too, And I heard

714
00:41:16,159 --> 00:41:20,480
that you guys were getting cells from cattle and l GCM.

715
00:41:20,599 --> 00:41:23,800
Are the cells basically kind of like a commodity part

716
00:41:24,039 --> 00:41:26,679
that you can assemble into your battery packs there or

717
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:28,360
you know, does it make a difference. How do you

718
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:32,280
see that long term?

719
00:41:32,639 --> 00:41:35,679
Speaker 6: I believe these cells are not yet from LG We

720
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:46,360
do expect to use locally, locally produced cells, but I'm.

721
00:41:43,559 --> 00:41:44,679
Speaker 1: Like, I don't know, it's a week clear.

722
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:47,360
Speaker 6: I don't always know exactly what's going on everywhere in

723
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:50,440
the fifty thousand person company. So some of the things,

724
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:52,719
like most most most of the things I say, will

725
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,880
be crippets of maybea occasionally something that's not as to

726
00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:00,920
that my knowledge, we're not yet using Algae camp cells.

727
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:03,480
We are using Panasonic cells made in Nevada.

728
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 4: But LGAE CAM can make pretty much the same cells

729
00:42:06,519 --> 00:42:07,960
as Panasonic.

730
00:42:08,039 --> 00:42:10,719
Speaker 6: Yes, but pretty much is not the same as the same.

731
00:42:11,039 --> 00:42:14,599
So there's still a few bugs to work out with

732
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:18,639
the LGA camp cells before we can use them in

733
00:42:18,679 --> 00:42:25,360
our module and battery pack production system. The CTL cells,

734
00:42:26,079 --> 00:42:30,239
the CL situation will be more of an integrated module

735
00:42:30,679 --> 00:42:35,360
then it will be a cell. And that's so that

736
00:42:35,639 --> 00:42:38,639
it's it's not just it's not super easy to replace

737
00:42:39,159 --> 00:42:46,320
these things. But yeah, we'll be We do expect to

738
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,760
use CTL. We do expect to use Algae. Currently we're

739
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:52,800
use using Panasonic. Might expect to use I mean like

740
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,960
virtually a matter of months. So by the middle of

741
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:59,000
this year we will probably be using both LGA and

742
00:42:59,079 --> 00:43:01,239
ctail in volume.

743
00:43:02,079 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 3: Wow.

744
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:06,039
Speaker 8: So we were talking about a lot of Tesla stuff,

745
00:43:06,039 --> 00:43:07,280
but we kind of wanted to ask you about your

746
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:09,920
personal history because we were saying you were saying how

747
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:12,880
there's some misconceptions you would like to make straight. And

748
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:15,000
you know, Ashley Vance wrote a book about you. I

749
00:43:15,039 --> 00:43:17,440
just read May's loved the book, and it was really wonderful.

750
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:19,039
I loved it, and I learned a little bit more

751
00:43:19,079 --> 00:43:21,440
history about your family and you. What are some of

752
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,440
the misconceptions that you would like to correct?

753
00:43:25,079 --> 00:43:26,719
Speaker 6: You know, most of this is just and it ended

754
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:28,679
up being kind of water under the bridge that people

755
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:32,559
didn't notice that much. Yeah, I mean there's a sort

756
00:43:32,599 --> 00:43:35,760
of some stories in there where it sounds like I

757
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:39,039
like fired people all of a sudden and arbitrarily, which

758
00:43:39,119 --> 00:43:40,079
was not the case.

759
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:41,760
Speaker 1: There.

760
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:50,039
Speaker 6: You know, it just Ashley asked somebody who who didn't

761
00:43:50,039 --> 00:43:51,559
know what was going on, and then that person was

762
00:43:51,559 --> 00:43:52,440
suddenly not there.

763
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:53,079
Speaker 1: And they didn't know why.

764
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 6: Yeah, but I yeah, I definitely do not fire talented people.

765
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:04,400
And yeah, you know, unless there's no option. So yeah,

766
00:44:04,519 --> 00:44:07,599
and absolutely not not without warning or like.

767
00:44:07,639 --> 00:44:09,559
Speaker 8: Keep hearing you say, we like it sounds like you're

768
00:44:09,599 --> 00:44:12,199
always thinking of everybody. I see you as a very

769
00:44:12,199 --> 00:44:17,719
selfless person. I mean seriously, I mean, yeah, it's like

770
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:19,119
from the age of twelve, it sounds like you've been

771
00:44:19,159 --> 00:44:20,480
thinking about how to help humanity.

772
00:44:21,679 --> 00:44:24,599
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean I'm not trying to be sort of

773
00:44:24,639 --> 00:44:28,800
like some you know, the sort of savior or something

774
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:34,280
like that. You know, but it's really just that if

775
00:44:36,039 --> 00:44:40,239
it just seems like there, it's just I don't know,

776
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:43,440
it feels like the obvious things to do. I can't like,

777
00:44:43,599 --> 00:44:51,239
I'm not sure why you do anything else. We want

778
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:56,760
to maximize happiness to the population and propagating to the

779
00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:01,360
future as far as possible and understand the nature of reality,

780
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:04,880
and from that, I think everything else follows.

781
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:09,039
Speaker 5: I saw you on Twitter like talking about how like

782
00:45:09,159 --> 00:45:11,800
people are having this rumor that you've been wealthy your

783
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:13,400
whole life and that would be like the only reason

784
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,280
who became successful and you've debunked that, And can you

785
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:18,559
ask share more about your upbringing and what led you

786
00:45:18,639 --> 00:45:21,360
to go into North America.

787
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:26,440
Speaker 6: Sure, I was in South Africa and it seemed like

788
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:30,079
wherever there was like a lot of the advanced technology

789
00:45:30,119 --> 00:45:34,840
in the world was being produced in America and Solucton

790
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:38,880
Valley especially, So I wanted to be where I could

791
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:42,800
sort of have an impact on technology, so that's or

792
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:46,519
be involved in the creation of new technology. So that's

793
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:50,800
what brought me to go to at first Canada because

794
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:54,559
I could get citizenship in Canada through my mom, and

795
00:45:54,599 --> 00:45:57,480
then ultimately to the US.

796
00:45:58,199 --> 00:46:05,239
Speaker 1: But yeah, I just left Slavco. When I was seventeen and.

797
00:46:06,679 --> 00:46:10,360
Speaker 6: Land in Montreal, I had like about two thousand dollars Canadian.

798
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 1: Uh yeah.

799
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:15,119
Speaker 6: I started staying in a youth hustle for a few days,

800
00:46:15,119 --> 00:46:18,519
and then there was a you could buy a ticket

801
00:46:18,559 --> 00:46:21,920
to across the country for hard bucks and stopped along

802
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:27,559
the way, and so I put that and just took

803
00:46:27,599 --> 00:46:31,599
it greyhound across Canada and sold these like little towns.

804
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 1: Well we were getting I didn't have much.

805
00:46:37,039 --> 00:46:40,840
Speaker 6: I had like a backpack again suitcase books, but that

806
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:47,519
the bus company, the Greyhound, unloaded it in one of

807
00:46:47,519 --> 00:46:51,159
the cities and then the bus left without my stuff.

808
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:55,159
Speaker 1: So I literally had nothing. All your books but you're

809
00:46:55,199 --> 00:46:55,599
closed to.

810
00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:58,679
Speaker 6: Actually, weirdly, I think I might have had the books thing,

811
00:46:58,679 --> 00:47:02,679
but I closed that prior you need it, Yeah, because

812
00:47:02,679 --> 00:47:04,599
I needed. I was just sitting in the bus station reading,

813
00:47:04,639 --> 00:47:07,280
waiting for the bus to get ready, and I think

814
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:08,760
I have the books but not not.

815
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:09,559
Speaker 1: But no clothing.

816
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:19,400
Speaker 6: So anyway, but I managed to get to Swift Current, Saskatchewan,

817
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:25,559
and then my, my, it's your cousins cousin's son, Yeah,

818
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:28,280
has a whaed farm there, and I worked on the

819
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:34,039
wheat farm for about six weeks and turned eighteen and Saskatchewan.

820
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 1: It's just a ton of called swift current.

821
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:40,039
Speaker 2: So that was summertime, right it is June, Yeah, June

822
00:47:40,079 --> 00:47:41,800
twenty eighth, So because I've been there in the winter

823
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:44,480
and it's like minus forty yeah, yeah, you don't want

824
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:45,239
to be traveling.

825
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:47,400
Speaker 8: Yeah did you ice kate? Did you try ice skating?

826
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:49,119
Speaker 1: No? There was it was quite warm.

827
00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 8: Well, I mean in the winter.

828
00:47:51,079 --> 00:47:53,079
Speaker 1: Stay for there in the winter. I was just I

829
00:47:53,079 --> 00:47:55,320
was there for about six weeks. Oh, you're lucky you survived.

830
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:56,239
That's good. Yeah.

831
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:59,880
Speaker 6: I was old there literally working on the wheat farm,

832
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:03,039
did a bond raising and they cleared out the wheat binds,

833
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:05,400
you know, the grain, grain salos, that kind of thing,

834
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:09,360
and I just worked the vegetable patch basically just doing

835
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:10,000
various things.

836
00:48:10,199 --> 00:48:12,079
Speaker 8: Would your mind just thinking of what you're what you're

837
00:48:12,079 --> 00:48:12,800
going to do after that?

838
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:17,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, t figure what I do next. I don't know

839
00:48:17,039 --> 00:48:17,440
what to do.

840
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 6: So then, but I ended up getting back on the

841
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:26,559
bus and went to Vancouver and I had a half

842
00:48:26,639 --> 00:48:29,599
uncle there who was kind of in the lumber industry.

843
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:32,639
He like made lumber, like lumber equipment.

844
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 8: Sounds like the Northwest.

845
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:41,360
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, basically throwing up chains, throwing logs and working

846
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:47,280
on the slumber mill and cleaning out the where they

847
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:50,719
where they boil the pulp and just like create crazy

848
00:48:52,039 --> 00:48:55,800
so boiler rooms and that that might be the hardest

849
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:58,960
job I've had, actually, because you had to like crawl

850
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:02,800
through this little tunnel and it has mat suit and

851
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:09,920
then with shovel with and then shovel the sort of

852
00:49:10,079 --> 00:49:16,079
steaming sand and mulch out of the boilers.

853
00:49:15,639 --> 00:49:16,320
Speaker 1: To clean him out.

854
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:20,360
Speaker 6: And you had to like there's only one entrance to exit,

855
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:23,119
which is like a little tunnel. If you're classrophobic, you

856
00:49:23,159 --> 00:49:26,920
could be real bad. And then you could shovel the

857
00:49:28,159 --> 00:49:31,639
sand and the mulch through the tunnel and it actually

858
00:49:31,679 --> 00:49:33,719
blocked the tunnel, and then somebody else would reach in

859
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:35,840
and shovel it out from the outside. So it just

860
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:38,440
big enough long enough if you have a trovel with

861
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:41,880
a long handle, one person on the inside can shovel

862
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:43,840
it far enough that someone on the outside can shovel

863
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:46,639
it out. And then you have to rotate every fifteen

864
00:49:46,679 --> 00:49:48,559
minutes to avoid getting hyperthermia.

865
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:54,400
Speaker 8: Oh wow, and the safeties just a man looking out

866
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:54,639
for you.

867
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:57,880
Speaker 6: There were just two people kind of paired up. So

868
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:01,559
if like one person's collap and you go to call somebody,

869
00:50:02,679 --> 00:50:04,320
but it'd be really hard to drag somebody out. I

870
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:06,960
have to say that it does not seem safe because

871
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:09,639
if the tunnel gets blocked, trying to get then and

872
00:50:09,679 --> 00:50:11,880
block that tunnel would be very difficult in a short

873
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:16,239
period of time. So, but it was the highest painting

874
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:21,519
job at the employment office. Sorry, I was like, okay,

875
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:23,679
the other jobs were like, I don't know, eight dollars

876
00:50:23,679 --> 00:50:25,239
an hour and this one was eighteen dollars an hour.

877
00:50:25,599 --> 00:50:27,679
Speaker 8: It fire your clothes and were gone.

878
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 1: Well they gave you they did you give you a

879
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:29,840
have hazmat suits?

880
00:50:30,559 --> 00:50:30,760
Speaker 6: Yeah?

881
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:32,119
Speaker 1: How long did you have to did you do that

882
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:36,119
job for? It was like four days, it was it

883
00:50:36,159 --> 00:50:37,000
was then it was done.

884
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:39,800
Speaker 6: Yeah, you said it was like a short term thing,

885
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:42,559
clean green fins, continding that the boilers the ball.

886
00:50:42,519 --> 00:50:45,960
Speaker 3: Rooms, so what was next? We were in boiler rooms and.

887
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:48,079
Speaker 1: Then yeah, so basically.

888
00:50:49,559 --> 00:50:51,320
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean literally it was like a lump of dragons,

889
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:57,239
chainselwing logs and just during the lumber or lumber stuff

890
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:03,199
basically for a few months there and then applied for college,

891
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:08,320
going to Queen's University and Kingston.

892
00:51:10,519 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 1: And was there for a couple of years.

893
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 6: And then some of that's just that I should apply

894
00:51:16,559 --> 00:51:20,159
to Jupan, and I didn't think I'd be able to

895
00:51:20,199 --> 00:51:23,239
go because I've paid for my own way through university

896
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:26,239
just which is actually not that hard in Canada because

897
00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:28,320
the tuition system.

898
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:30,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, the tuitions had yourselves that I is in Canada.

899
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:35,320
Speaker 6: So so with you know, with basically some if you

900
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:39,920
sort of worked during the summer semester and take out

901
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:42,360
some omens and get some scholarships, you can pretty much

902
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:45,440
go to any college in Canada, I think. But I

903
00:51:45,599 --> 00:51:48,960
met someone who was at Yupan and they said you

904
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:51,280
should at least apply, and I applied and they actually

905
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:54,639
gave me like quite a big scholarship, so that that

906
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:57,679
allowed me to go there, and so that I did

907
00:51:57,719 --> 00:52:04,440
the physics and economics there and uh and and then.

908
00:52:04,679 --> 00:52:07,360
Speaker 1: That that's what led to the road trip to Stafford

909
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:08,559
with Robin ran.

910
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:15,119
Speaker 6: And and and then I was during that that summer

911
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:19,159
that I was was like, Okay, if I can either

912
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:23,199
spend several years kind of doing a PhD and know

913
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:24,760
that I care about the PhD actually, but I just

914
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:28,599
need a lab. But I could either spend a bunch

915
00:52:28,599 --> 00:52:31,440
of years working in a lab and maybe it would

916
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:33,719
maybe the technology would pan out or maybe it wouldn't,

917
00:52:35,079 --> 00:52:40,320
but the Internet would was definitely about to go super

918
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:44,360
and over in ninety five. So I was like, Okay,

919
00:52:45,599 --> 00:52:48,639
I can always come back to working on electric cars basically,

920
00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:54,960
and which I did, but the Internet is not going

921
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:59,320
to wait. So it's so then I put stafford on

922
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:08,079
defoement and started up to which was really just you know,

923
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:11,280
I started off with maps and directions, yell pages, white pages,

924
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:17,800
that kind of thing, and it was the best of

925
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:19,719
my knowledge of the first maps and directions on the Internet.

926
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:25,039
So this was some like patents I have. I don't

927
00:53:25,039 --> 00:53:26,960
know how many more of it. They've obviously lapsed at

928
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:31,159
this point, but for maps and directions and yell pages

929
00:53:31,199 --> 00:53:35,039
and advertising and stuff. And I wrote the whole the

930
00:53:35,079 --> 00:53:37,480
whole initial code base I wrote personally because there wasn't

931
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:38,000
any reels.

932
00:53:38,159 --> 00:53:39,199
Speaker 1: It's just me so.

933
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:45,719
Speaker 6: And I only had a few thousand dollars and my

934
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:48,320
brother joined and he brought like five thousand dollars, which

935
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:51,239
was led. Yeah, at least for the first few months,

936
00:53:51,679 --> 00:53:55,000
there was literally only one computer. So the website when

937
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:57,079
the website wasn't working. It was because I was compiling

938
00:53:57,119 --> 00:54:02,920
code and and even again an interat connection was pretty hard,

939
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:07,320
but there was an Internet service provider on the flow blows.

940
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:11,880
We're more or less squatted in this office because the

941
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:14,920
landlord was like out of the country or something and

942
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:17,840
nobody was using it.

943
00:54:18,039 --> 00:54:19,760
Speaker 1: So so you've lived in there.

944
00:54:20,039 --> 00:54:23,000
Speaker 8: Yeah, I think I've read that in Mays book. You

945
00:54:23,079 --> 00:54:25,960
showered at wymc A then, right, that's right. Yeah, it's

946
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:27,840
smart though, I mean you were thrifty to what you

947
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:28,159
had to do.

948
00:54:29,199 --> 00:54:33,239
Speaker 4: We just like had no no money, so we're gonna

949
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:35,880
do you know, what did people think about zip tou generally?

950
00:54:36,039 --> 00:54:38,519
Was it like seen as a crazy idea or like

951
00:54:38,599 --> 00:54:41,320
do people even understand the Internet? Back then, most people

952
00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:42,360
didn't understand the Internet.

953
00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:46,079
Speaker 6: Most people didn't know Even on sand Hill Road, like

954
00:54:46,159 --> 00:54:50,400
we tried pitching people to invest in an inter company.

955
00:54:50,679 --> 00:54:52,679
Speaker 1: Most of the vcs we pitched too had never used

956
00:54:52,679 --> 00:54:53,000
the Internet.

957
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:54,519
Speaker 4: Do you remember some of the VC firms you went

958
00:54:54,559 --> 00:54:55,719
to on sandial.

959
00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:58,679
Speaker 6: I remember most of time we wouldn't take a meeting,

960
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:00,960
and if they didn't take a meeting, there were pretty

961
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:04,719
bored and not say like who's who's made money on

962
00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:09,400
the Internet. No, like no one, okay, but the seed

963
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:12,599
change occurred when Escape went public.

964
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:13,639
Speaker 1: Yeah.

965
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:17,519
Speaker 6: So the first thing I tried to do was not

966
00:55:17,559 --> 00:55:18,920
to start a company. I tried to get a job

967
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:21,320
in Netscape, but they didn't reply to me. Oh no,

968
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:24,840
oh man, So I just I tried. I tried hanging

969
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:27,679
out in the lobby at Escape. I don't know who

970
00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:30,199
to talk to. I was really too shy to talk

971
00:55:30,199 --> 00:55:32,280
to you when I don't know. So it's like, Okay,

972
00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:34,119
I can't get a job at the only internet company

973
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:39,199
that you know that that does Internet software, So then

974
00:55:39,199 --> 00:55:40,480
I'll try writing software.

975
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:43,159
Speaker 1: So that's.

976
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:48,800
Speaker 6: Kind of what happened there. Yeah, and then like I said,

977
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:50,719
my brother came down and joined. This is like well

978
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:51,719
like late ninety five.

979
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:53,880
Speaker 4: And then.

980
00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:58,400
Speaker 1: In January ninety five, I think it was the.

981
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:03,239
Speaker 6: There was there was a lot more interest in the

982
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:08,800
internet stuff following the newscape I p O and that's

983
00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:11,639
the software software was more impressive, I guess.

984
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:16,960
Speaker 1: So then we then more more. David aw invested so

985
00:56:18,159 --> 00:56:23,840
they're VC from on sand Hill Road and they.

986
00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:28,239
Speaker 6: They invested I think it was like three million dollars

987
00:56:28,519 --> 00:56:31,559
for effectively sixty percent of the company.

988
00:56:31,559 --> 00:56:36,199
Speaker 1: Wow, which we thought was crazy.

989
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:38,760
Speaker 6: They're like, well, these get Learn gives us the money

990
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:48,119
for nothing, they must be mad. Yeah, so they that

991
00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:52,199
this this seems like like crazy that they're to give

992
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:55,920
so much money for a company that consisted the time

993
00:56:55,960 --> 00:57:02,639
of about five people, like literally I think five people.

994
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:02,760
Speaker 1: At the time.

995
00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:06,159
Speaker 6: So but anyway, it worked out well for them in

996
00:57:06,159 --> 00:57:12,519
the end, so we hired a lot more people were

997
00:57:12,719 --> 00:57:16,360
both out the service, and they also ended up writing

998
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:19,079
a bunch of software to bring the newspapers online. So

999
00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:23,840
Night Ritter, New York Times Company, Hurst well became investors

1000
00:57:24,039 --> 00:57:29,679
and customers, and at one points of two which responsible

1001
00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:35,840
for a significant section of the New York Times company website. Yeah,

1002
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:37,800
so I got to know the media industry pretty well.

1003
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:44,440
And but over what really happened with with it effectively

1004
00:57:44,559 --> 00:57:49,599
got too much there was too much control by the

1005
00:57:49,679 --> 00:57:52,719
existing media companies, so that too may board seats and

1006
00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:56,320
too much boarding control, and that they kept trying to

1007
00:57:56,360 --> 00:58:02,039
push the company down directions that made no sense. So

1008
00:58:03,800 --> 00:58:08,039
like so, if you actually had really good software, I'd

1009
00:58:08,079 --> 00:58:11,039
say software is comparable in some ways more advanced than

1010
00:58:11,119 --> 00:58:13,840
say Yahoo were excite at the time, but it was

1011
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:16,159
just not being used properly, and it was all being

1012
00:58:16,239 --> 00:58:21,440
forced through uh, through media companies who they're not.

1013
00:58:21,599 --> 00:58:22,599
Speaker 1: Not use it, you know.

1014
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:25,199
Speaker 6: So it's like it's okay, we've got the best technology,

1015
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:29,920
but it's it's not being deployed properly. So but unfortunately

1016
00:58:30,639 --> 00:58:37,280
compback came along and they compat compact It acquired Digital Equipment,

1017
00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:41,320
and Digital Equipment had owned Aulti Vesta, which at the

1018
00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:44,400
time was probably the best the search best search engine.

1019
00:58:44,719 --> 00:58:47,719
So they thought that their idea was they will combine

1020
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:50,480
Altivesta with a bunch of other Internet companies and try

1021
00:58:50,519 --> 00:58:54,719
to compete create a competitor to Yahoo or Excite that

1022
00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:56,440
that was the Excite used to be a big thing,

1023
00:58:56,480 --> 00:58:59,000
amazingly and yeah, who used to be a big thing

1024
00:59:00,039 --> 00:59:00,679
a long time.

1025
00:59:00,559 --> 00:59:03,480
Speaker 4: Ago that it was like owned by Verizon or something.

1026
00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:06,760
Speaker 8: Yeah, and there was Ala.

1027
00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:10,199
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was a crazy story. They you know, they

1028
00:59:10,280 --> 00:59:13,400
failed to ocquord Google twice. You know, Microsoft offered them

1029
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:16,119
like forty billion or something and they turned.

1030
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:18,760
Speaker 9: It down and then Alibaba saved them out of nowhere.

1031
00:59:19,760 --> 00:59:23,039
Speaker 4: Yeah, the Alibaba steak was worth more than the whole

1032
00:59:23,199 --> 00:59:24,239
whole company I went.

1033
00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:27,079
Speaker 9: By, like, yeah, huge amount. It was basically a proxy

1034
00:59:27,119 --> 00:59:28,400
for Alibaba shares training.

1035
00:59:29,679 --> 00:59:32,800
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. But at one point, I mean at that time,

1036
00:59:33,519 --> 00:59:34,360
like if you get back.

1037
00:59:34,239 --> 00:59:37,079
Speaker 6: To say ninety eight, ninety nine, yeah, who seemed like

1038
00:59:37,119 --> 00:59:42,559
an unstoppable juggernaut, Like literally like this company, will you know?

1039
00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:49,239
It's a behemoth. Nobody could possibly defeat them. But anyway,

1040
00:59:50,760 --> 00:59:52,039
and where's com back today?

1041
00:59:52,199 --> 00:59:52,400
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1042
00:59:52,599 --> 00:59:57,280
Speaker 6: So, but that was their idea, which is at least,

1043
00:59:57,599 --> 00:59:59,599
if executed well, could have made sense.

1044
01:00:01,719 --> 01:00:06,360
Speaker 3: Kimball, Yeah, what do you what are you guys doing?

1045
01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:08,039
Speaker 4: We're recording a podcast?

1046
01:00:09,199 --> 01:00:10,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, how do you want me to join?

1047
01:00:11,320 --> 01:00:11,519
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1048
01:00:14,199 --> 01:00:15,320
Speaker 4: So what do you remember about it?

1049
01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:18,079
Speaker 1: Too? Well? Remember?

1050
01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:20,880
Speaker 3: Yeah? So, but then the Internet came along with came

1051
01:00:20,960 --> 01:00:22,519
this huge thing. I mean it was always it was

1052
01:00:22,559 --> 01:00:25,159
always there, but it became a big deal. And then

1053
01:00:25,199 --> 01:00:29,320
Elan was working on uh, working in Silicon Valley, and

1054
01:00:29,519 --> 01:00:32,519
as I remember it, you know, I never heard a

1055
01:00:32,599 --> 01:00:35,639
meeting where some of the Yellow Pages companies were thinking

1056
01:00:35,719 --> 01:00:38,440
of doing sort of online yellow Pages, And.

1057
01:00:38,719 --> 01:00:43,000
Speaker 1: No, where would I why would I have been? This

1058
01:00:43,159 --> 01:00:44,039
is a long time ago.

1059
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:46,320
Speaker 3: You called me up and you said we should do

1060
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:48,159
you think you can do a better job, so we

1061
01:00:48,199 --> 01:00:48,719
think we can do it.

1062
01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:51,119
Speaker 4: Maybe you made that up to try and get Kimball interested.

1063
01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:53,239
Speaker 1: How would I be in a meeting with Yellow Pages company.

1064
01:00:53,280 --> 01:00:59,920
Speaker 3: I have no idea, that's what I remember Leafless.

1065
01:01:02,639 --> 01:01:04,159
Speaker 1: I don't even know any of Yellow Persons.

1066
01:01:04,199 --> 01:01:09,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree with you now. But so it was

1067
01:01:09,239 --> 01:01:12,519
like I think April of nineteen ninety five we started

1068
01:01:12,519 --> 01:01:18,400
working on it, and the I guess the idea was

1069
01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:23,360
fairly simple to take mapping and apply it to the Internet,

1070
01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:26,639
and there were a few other companies trying to do it,

1071
01:01:26,719 --> 01:01:31,679
but no one with the very cool technology of sort

1072
01:01:31,719 --> 01:01:34,199
of what was called vector based mapping, which is which

1073
01:01:34,239 --> 01:01:36,679
is what we all use today, where the map is

1074
01:01:36,679 --> 01:01:38,519
actually alive, you know, not just a picture.

1075
01:01:38,719 --> 01:01:39,880
Speaker 4: I was very ahead of its time.

1076
01:01:40,639 --> 01:01:42,519
Speaker 3: I think we were the first. I know there were

1077
01:01:42,679 --> 01:01:44,519
other people putting maps on the Internet, but I think

1078
01:01:44,519 --> 01:01:47,320
we were the first to put vector based mapping, which

1079
01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:50,039
is what the kind of technology used today on the Internet,

1080
01:01:50,599 --> 01:01:53,880
and orginal directions. So it was cool. I remember my

1081
01:01:53,960 --> 01:01:57,599
brother and I pressing go on his server at our

1082
01:01:57,639 --> 01:02:03,119
office and took about sixty seconds for the first door

1083
01:02:03,119 --> 01:02:07,320
to door directions to come up on the screen. And

1084
01:02:08,039 --> 01:02:11,519
even sixty seconds was amazing. You're like, this is incredible.

1085
01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:17,360
Directions to anywhere. This is just amazing and definitely seen

1086
01:02:17,400 --> 01:02:19,639
amazing at the time. Definitely seen amazing at the time.

1087
01:02:19,760 --> 01:02:25,119
Yeah it now, it's like, but this was like an

1088
01:02:25,159 --> 01:02:32,280
impossible thing. It was so cool and using Java, you know,

1089
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:37,599
had coated a interactive map, which again all super normal

1090
01:02:37,599 --> 01:02:40,239
stuff today, but the ability to just draw square and

1091
01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:45,239
zoom in or zoom out, that was just unheard of technology.

1092
01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:49,320
Draw square, yeah, you remember that, it was a little

1093
01:02:49,519 --> 01:02:51,559
little red square on the Java browser.

1094
01:02:52,239 --> 01:02:53,000
Speaker 1: That was unusual.

1095
01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:56,880
Speaker 4: Yes, just like, yeah, well you cheated if you're using

1096
01:02:57,000 --> 01:02:57,760
Java applets.

1097
01:02:58,480 --> 01:03:01,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is when Java sucked and it was barely.

1098
01:03:01,039 --> 01:03:04,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, this was like probably the most I think we

1099
01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:06,760
even got some sort of recognition because it was the

1100
01:03:06,880 --> 01:03:11,519
most advanced Java application on Java at the time because

1101
01:03:11,559 --> 01:03:12,920
it was so ridiculously hot.

1102
01:03:13,519 --> 01:03:13,719
Speaker 1: It was.

1103
01:03:13,880 --> 01:03:15,960
Speaker 3: It was a really crappy technology at the time, but

1104
01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:17,840
this this was done on it.

1105
01:03:18,559 --> 01:03:20,960
Speaker 6: The thing is that if you if you downloaded the

1106
01:03:21,320 --> 01:03:24,400
job outplet, we could we could transmit the vector data,

1107
01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:27,519
not just a betmap. And this is what when everyone's

1108
01:03:27,559 --> 01:03:29,639
on a modem, so something's on like you know, twenty

1109
01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:34,480
covets motem or you know, trying to download a map

1110
01:03:34,599 --> 01:03:38,000
image to take forever, whereas if you had downloading the

1111
01:03:38,079 --> 01:03:41,280
vector data, is that locally rendered using the Java applet

1112
01:03:41,519 --> 01:03:43,880
was super was relatively speaking, super fast.

1113
01:03:44,599 --> 01:03:45,360
Speaker 1: That's what made it cool.

1114
01:03:45,360 --> 01:03:49,239
Speaker 4: Sparta, I mean yeah, even like vector maps are even

1115
01:03:49,280 --> 01:03:51,639
Google Maps using like raster maps a few years ago,

1116
01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:54,519
like it seems like very out of its time.

1117
01:03:55,280 --> 01:03:57,719
Speaker 3: Well, we were the first, I believe. I believe the

1118
01:03:57,760 --> 01:04:00,039
two of us were the first humans to see the

1119
01:04:01,119 --> 01:04:03,760
maps and little directions on the Internet, which I think

1120
01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:05,400
is pretty cool, very cool cool.

1121
01:04:05,519 --> 01:04:09,440
Speaker 8: Yeah, Garman came out. When did Garman first launch?

1122
01:04:10,440 --> 01:04:12,719
Speaker 3: Well, they were an Internet based right, so you could

1123
01:04:13,199 --> 01:04:16,599
you could. Actually I don't think Garman was even a

1124
01:04:16,679 --> 01:04:19,320
player at this point. It was Navtek was the only

1125
01:04:19,400 --> 01:04:22,000
place that we were. That's where we got the data from. Yeah,

1126
01:04:22,280 --> 01:04:25,360
and they were building it for for Hurts Never Lost,

1127
01:04:25,480 --> 01:04:27,079
which came out a few years lady. You know those

1128
01:04:27,559 --> 01:04:31,760
things that no one uses in the GPS systems, really

1129
01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:34,679
really bad technology. But the actual mapping data was amazing,

1130
01:04:35,360 --> 01:04:39,679
and so we took that and applied it to the Internet.

1131
01:04:39,760 --> 01:04:42,199
That we were twenty two and twenty three at the time.

1132
01:04:43,039 --> 01:04:45,199
It had cost them three hundred million dollars to build

1133
01:04:45,199 --> 01:04:47,880
this data. And they gave it to us for free

1134
01:04:48,639 --> 01:04:50,440
with a simple contract saying, if you ever make any

1135
01:04:50,480 --> 01:04:52,480
money on this, you've got to you've got to come share.

1136
01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:57,840
And that's how we got it. That's amazing that, Yeah,

1137
01:04:57,880 --> 01:05:00,400
you can say it's amazing what happens if you ask nicely.

1138
01:05:02,480 --> 01:05:04,039
And there's also part of it was these guys had

1139
01:05:04,079 --> 01:05:05,840
been working so hard on the tech and no one

1140
01:05:05,880 --> 01:05:08,599
had ever seen what they were doing because it was

1141
01:05:08,679 --> 01:05:10,400
not on the internet and it was not being used

1142
01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:13,679
for for hurts, and so it was just they were

1143
01:05:13,840 --> 01:05:16,679
excited that someone would use the data and it would

1144
01:05:16,800 --> 01:05:19,039
think people could see what they've been they've been working on.

1145
01:05:19,519 --> 01:05:21,880
Speaker 9: So how did you guys get the engineering chops to

1146
01:05:21,960 --> 01:05:23,639
pull this off? Because it sounds like you were so

1147
01:05:23,840 --> 01:05:25,559
young you didn't really have any help and then you

1148
01:05:25,639 --> 01:05:27,599
built this like cutting edge piece of technology.

1149
01:05:27,840 --> 01:05:29,920
Speaker 3: Did you need to teach yourselves from I don't know

1150
01:05:30,000 --> 01:05:32,159
what time, what age, but publisher for the.

1151
01:05:32,199 --> 01:05:34,920
Speaker 9: Like blast Star game, right, yeah, when it was twelve.

1152
01:05:35,719 --> 01:05:38,039
Speaker 1: Did you write any other cool stuff back then? Yeah?

1153
01:05:38,039 --> 01:05:45,119
Speaker 6: I wrote a bunch of games. Yeah, and then like

1154
01:05:45,159 --> 01:05:48,880
occasionally software for people like asked for software.

1155
01:05:49,199 --> 01:05:51,880
Speaker 3: You know, you also worked for a video game company.

1156
01:05:52,239 --> 01:05:57,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, our funily it was called rocket Science. Yeah, that's funny.

1157
01:06:00,199 --> 01:06:02,039
Speaker 4: By the way, we took a SpaceX to yesterday.

1158
01:06:02,039 --> 01:06:04,760
Speaker 1: It was insane. Thank you for that. That was amazing. Yeah,

1159
01:06:04,760 --> 01:06:05,280
it was so good.

1160
01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:07,039
Speaker 4: It's like Batman's layer in there.

1161
01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:09,719
Speaker 3: It's really it is amazing.

1162
01:06:09,760 --> 01:06:11,920
Speaker 2: But it gives your perspective on what Tesla's doing because

1163
01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:14,480
the technology is so advanced and that there's you know,

1164
01:06:14,599 --> 01:06:17,320
interchange of information there. Like the I know they used

1165
01:06:17,360 --> 01:06:20,559
to incannel fuse right, was from SpaceX. When they couldn't

1166
01:06:20,559 --> 01:06:23,079
get the power output right, it kept burning up the

1167
01:06:23,119 --> 01:06:27,440
fuse in the in the performance models. So yeah, that's awesome.

1168
01:06:27,800 --> 01:06:30,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's pretty cool to see the SpaceX tech being

1169
01:06:30,280 --> 01:06:32,719
applied to Tesla. I think I think there's a joint

1170
01:06:32,760 --> 01:06:35,760
there's one joint employee between SpaceX and Tesla, and it's real.

1171
01:06:35,800 --> 01:06:38,000
It's the materials is it the materials engineer?

1172
01:06:38,440 --> 01:06:39,320
Speaker 1: What about you want.

1173
01:06:42,360 --> 01:06:45,239
Speaker 3: In addition to el because they're just not that many

1174
01:06:45,320 --> 01:06:47,440
humans on the planet that know how to do this stuff.

1175
01:06:48,199 --> 01:06:49,719
Speaker 1: Well, it sounded like back in the old days it

1176
01:06:49,840 --> 01:06:51,960
was was it just elam doing the coding or.

1177
01:06:52,079 --> 01:06:53,920
Speaker 6: I mean I did a little for like HTML friend,

1178
01:06:56,079 --> 01:06:59,119
not recently but no, there was there was no money,

1179
01:06:59,199 --> 01:06:59,840
so you can employ it.

1180
01:07:00,119 --> 01:07:03,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I strolled the software and you worked through

1181
01:07:03,840 --> 01:07:04,039
the night.

1182
01:07:04,159 --> 01:07:06,599
Speaker 8: Right, you just never according to his book, he never slept.

1183
01:07:06,639 --> 01:07:06,920
I don't know.

1184
01:07:07,519 --> 01:07:09,400
Speaker 3: I mean we we lived in a little office. I

1185
01:07:09,440 --> 01:07:12,679
think this address was four to seventy Sherman Way in

1186
01:07:14,119 --> 01:07:18,679
Palo Alto. It was probably Lea. Yeah, it was probably

1187
01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:22,559
like fifteen feet wide by thirty feet long, with a

1188
01:07:22,599 --> 01:07:26,639
little little closet in the back. And we would we

1189
01:07:27,039 --> 01:07:28,800
we couldn't afford a place to sleep or like a

1190
01:07:29,280 --> 01:07:32,280
house home apartment, so we would sleep in it and

1191
01:07:32,360 --> 01:07:34,280
it had a couch that was a photon and it

1192
01:07:34,360 --> 01:07:36,719
would pull out the futon, take turns sleeping on the

1193
01:07:36,760 --> 01:07:38,880
fouts on or the floor, although he coated a lot

1194
01:07:38,880 --> 01:07:40,639
at night, so I usually got the futon at night,

1195
01:07:42,599 --> 01:07:44,880
and we had we had to coat it at night

1196
01:07:45,000 --> 01:07:48,000
because the server when the Internet was live, needed to

1197
01:07:48,039 --> 01:07:50,280
be functional, and we just had data for the Bay

1198
01:07:50,320 --> 01:07:51,679
area at the time, so we were just kind of

1199
01:07:51,719 --> 01:07:53,320
making sure that the people in the Bay area could

1200
01:07:53,400 --> 01:07:57,440
use it. And then and then we had a little

1201
01:07:57,559 --> 01:08:00,519
little mini fridge with a cooking stove on and we'd

1202
01:08:00,559 --> 01:08:03,880
cook simple things, you know, pasta, sauce and pasta and

1203
01:08:03,960 --> 01:08:06,159
things like that that would be as cheap as dirt.

1204
01:08:06,719 --> 01:08:08,920
People think it's expensive to eat. Real food is actually

1205
01:08:08,920 --> 01:08:12,519
really cheap. Yah, books, vegetables, pasta and beans and stuff.

1206
01:08:12,840 --> 01:08:16,800
Beans super cheap, so that Jack the cheapest, and then

1207
01:08:16,800 --> 01:08:18,399
we would go eat a Jack in the Box, which

1208
01:08:18,439 --> 01:08:20,720
I can still and still kind of shiver a little

1209
01:08:22,000 --> 01:08:26,800
still even there for probably twenty years or longer, maybe

1210
01:08:26,840 --> 01:08:29,439
twenty two years, and I can still probably recite the

1211
01:08:29,640 --> 01:08:30,239
entire menu.

1212
01:08:30,720 --> 01:08:32,720
Speaker 6: Yeah, recycled through the menu and Jack in the Box

1213
01:08:33,000 --> 01:08:35,960
because what it was like just a few blocks away

1214
01:08:35,960 --> 01:08:38,279
from and it was up in twenty four hours, over

1215
01:08:38,359 --> 01:08:40,439
twenty four hours, and tried to get to you know,

1216
01:08:40,560 --> 01:08:42,720
dinner at Coalbelta after ten a zero.

1217
01:08:42,840 --> 01:08:43,000
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1218
01:08:43,239 --> 01:08:45,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, So did they know you very well Jack in

1219
01:08:45,720 --> 01:08:45,960
the Box.

1220
01:08:46,039 --> 01:08:49,000
Speaker 3: Well they didn't really, they did know. And I remember

1221
01:08:49,039 --> 01:08:50,680
one time I got a milk chick and I was

1222
01:08:50,760 --> 01:08:52,319
so tired. I was like four in the morning and

1223
01:08:52,520 --> 01:08:54,359
just needed to get some sugar for the rest of

1224
01:08:54,399 --> 01:08:56,960
the night. And there was something in it, and I

1225
01:08:57,000 --> 01:08:59,560
remember just flicking it out and just pertaining it didn't exist,

1226
01:09:00,239 --> 01:09:05,880
kept drinking my milkshake. It was it was like that

1227
01:09:06,159 --> 01:09:07,800
or that kind of like not in the zone to

1228
01:09:07,840 --> 01:09:10,920
go back into Jack argue about a milkshake, but I

1229
01:09:10,920 --> 01:09:12,239
don't want to not drink the milkshake.

1230
01:09:12,439 --> 01:09:14,239
Speaker 6: And probably reason that food was like so cheap is

1231
01:09:14,279 --> 01:09:16,159
that they had some people I think that had of

1232
01:09:16,199 --> 01:09:17,239
food poisoning.

1233
01:09:18,960 --> 01:09:20,600
Speaker 3: Right around that time when they got fit into a

1234
01:09:20,640 --> 01:09:21,560
food poisoning scare.

1235
01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:25,800
Speaker 6: Yeah, so that there, it was just very cheap to

1236
01:09:25,840 --> 01:09:28,680
eat there, and I figured, like, you know, they probably

1237
01:09:28,680 --> 01:09:32,119
you know, have taken some action because that after the

1238
01:09:32,159 --> 01:09:35,359
food poisoning, so hopefully, Yeah.

1239
01:09:35,720 --> 01:09:38,439
Speaker 1: There's just like eat a little bit of it, just

1240
01:09:38,600 --> 01:09:42,119
tastes funny. Stop eating if it tastes funny.

1241
01:09:43,600 --> 01:09:46,239
Speaker 3: You run out of things to eat because after like

1242
01:09:46,399 --> 01:09:51,399
the seventeenth chicken feet at Peta, you like can't do it.

1243
01:09:52,359 --> 01:09:56,560
Speaker 1: The yacha boll, remember that is that one good? It's

1244
01:09:56,560 --> 01:09:58,960
actually it veried, but it was it was edible. It

1245
01:09:59,039 --> 01:09:59,399
was so bad.

1246
01:09:59,439 --> 01:10:02,199
Speaker 3: Which one one? The chariochy baal teriochy ball wasn't bad.

1247
01:10:02,239 --> 01:10:06,880
There was the sort of sour dough grilled grilled cheese

1248
01:10:06,960 --> 01:10:08,000
thing that was wasn't bad.

1249
01:10:08,119 --> 01:10:11,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, those were the good old days, right, I mean

1250
01:10:11,880 --> 01:10:13,239
it was honestly good days.

1251
01:10:13,239 --> 01:10:15,000
Speaker 3: I mean we just we were just hoping that people

1252
01:10:15,039 --> 01:10:16,880
would let us stay in the country.

1253
01:10:19,840 --> 01:10:21,640
Speaker 1: We weren't really that word about what we were eating.

1254
01:10:21,720 --> 01:10:25,680
Speaker 3: We were just doing everything we could to to get

1255
01:10:25,840 --> 01:10:28,760
to get someone to support the company. We didn't really understand.

1256
01:10:28,760 --> 01:10:30,560
I didn't understand the venture capital that much. So we

1257
01:10:30,640 --> 01:10:33,359
were doing a seed round and angel around and doing

1258
01:10:33,399 --> 01:10:35,960
our best to talk to everyone and anyone we could find.

1259
01:10:37,159 --> 01:10:39,079
We had a very good friend with us, Greg Curry,

1260
01:10:39,119 --> 01:10:42,199
who now passed away, who was older than us by

1261
01:10:42,239 --> 01:10:44,560
about ten years I think, And yeah, it was a

1262
01:10:44,600 --> 01:10:47,920
wonderful mentor helped us out and put a little money

1263
01:10:47,920 --> 01:10:50,560
in as well. And and then I did a lot

1264
01:10:50,600 --> 01:10:53,079
of the work to just find just network with people.

1265
01:10:53,119 --> 01:10:57,560
I think our our first salesman who was selling Yellow

1266
01:10:57,560 --> 01:11:00,520
Pages ads for us, I was a real state agent

1267
01:11:00,560 --> 01:11:04,880
who knew another person who knew this other person who

1268
01:11:04,960 --> 01:11:09,560
helped us, who helped us raise put together We ended

1269
01:11:09,640 --> 01:11:11,760
up not doing the round, but put together a round

1270
01:11:11,840 --> 01:11:13,880
of like two hundred thousand dollars or something.

1271
01:11:14,159 --> 01:11:17,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then we did like part of it or something.

1272
01:11:18,520 --> 01:11:20,840
Speaker 3: But I think once we had the Java Java Map,

1273
01:11:20,920 --> 01:11:23,119
which was really quite impressive. I mean, if you've never

1274
01:11:23,239 --> 01:11:26,359
seen if you're never you've never seen Google maps or

1275
01:11:26,479 --> 01:11:29,560
Java maps before. It really is a remarkable thing to see.

1276
01:11:30,439 --> 01:11:33,439
We started to go to we got it. We got

1277
01:11:33,479 --> 01:11:36,840
some audiences with some venture capitalists, and it just went

1278
01:11:36,920 --> 01:11:40,479
from we were starving, we had no car. Well, the

1279
01:11:40,520 --> 01:11:43,640
car we had it broken, the will fell off, the

1280
01:11:43,680 --> 01:11:45,680
wheel fell off, the wheel fell off. Yeah, what kind

1281
01:11:45,680 --> 01:11:47,520
of car was it? I remember that's an old BMW

1282
01:11:47,600 --> 01:11:50,600
three wed across the country.

1283
01:11:51,000 --> 01:11:52,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, the one that my mom mest some pictures of.

1284
01:11:53,159 --> 01:11:55,680
Speaker 3: I think there's I think there's still a there's a

1285
01:11:55,840 --> 01:11:57,680
there's a car of in the in the road at

1286
01:11:57,760 --> 01:12:00,399
page Mill and night alchemmed. Literally the wal came off,

1287
01:12:00,520 --> 01:12:02,840
will fell off, and and and the guy literally in

1288
01:12:02,880 --> 01:12:05,880
the air section just drove it without the wheel to

1289
01:12:06,079 --> 01:12:07,520
the to the silence.

1290
01:12:09,079 --> 01:12:10,920
Speaker 6: It's pretty much time for the junk yard at that point,

1291
01:12:11,159 --> 01:12:16,840
because the whole car is falling apart. So yeah, it's

1292
01:12:16,840 --> 01:12:19,399
like the point which the wheel falls off, it's time

1293
01:12:19,439 --> 01:12:20,600
to go to the junkyard.

1294
01:12:28,800 --> 01:12:30,600
Speaker 4: In the morning. No, that was that was way more.

1295
01:12:30,960 --> 01:12:33,199
Speaker 3: That was way later because we already had the deal,

1296
01:12:34,079 --> 01:12:36,760
but we were we were not I don't know if

1297
01:12:36,800 --> 01:12:39,640
you were, but I was not legally in America. So

1298
01:12:39,720 --> 01:12:40,680
I was illegally there.

1299
01:12:42,840 --> 01:12:45,520
Speaker 1: I was legally there, but but I was mentioning student work.

1300
01:12:46,920 --> 01:12:48,680
Speaker 3: At a student work you you were you were doing

1301
01:12:49,000 --> 01:12:51,000
you were supposed to be doing a PhD in Stanford.

1302
01:12:50,640 --> 01:12:52,760
Speaker 1: And yeah, I decided not to do so. And it

1303
01:12:52,880 --> 01:12:54,520
was like I was allowed to do work sort of

1304
01:12:54,640 --> 01:12:56,239
supporting whatever, you know, I don't know.

1305
01:12:58,479 --> 01:13:00,279
Speaker 3: I tried to get a visa, but there's just there's

1306
01:13:00,319 --> 01:13:02,840
just not no visa you can get to do a startup.

1307
01:13:03,239 --> 01:13:07,640
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, nobody was paying you anything either, and so so

1308
01:13:07,760 --> 01:13:08,279
we ended up.

1309
01:13:09,760 --> 01:13:12,199
Speaker 3: We got a deal from from from More David out

1310
01:13:12,279 --> 01:13:16,279
and uh, this really high well respected DC firm, and

1311
01:13:16,840 --> 01:13:18,600
we had to break the news to them that that

1312
01:13:19,000 --> 01:13:21,279
that we take the bus. We took the bus to

1313
01:13:21,359 --> 01:13:24,760
get to to the offices. We don't have a car,

1314
01:13:24,920 --> 01:13:27,319
and we don't have an apartment, and were illegal.

1315
01:13:27,840 --> 01:13:29,880
Speaker 1: No, no, no, you're illegal.

1316
01:13:33,079 --> 01:13:35,920
Speaker 6: And so I was legal, but my visa was going

1317
01:13:35,960 --> 01:13:38,319
to run out in two years, okay, yeah, but I

1318
01:13:38,439 --> 01:13:39,399
was definita.

1319
01:13:39,920 --> 01:13:42,520
Speaker 3: We needed to get it sorted. And so, uh they

1320
01:13:42,600 --> 01:13:46,279
were great. I mean they're the lead investor's wife was

1321
01:13:46,319 --> 01:13:48,720
from Canada. They knew the whole challenge of being an

1322
01:13:48,720 --> 01:13:52,560
immigrant and we had Canadian passports, and so uh. They

1323
01:13:52,840 --> 01:13:56,359
they funded the company and they gave us some money

1324
01:13:56,399 --> 01:13:59,399
to each buy a car, and they gave us a

1325
01:13:59,439 --> 01:14:02,840
salary so could rent an apartment, and they I got

1326
01:14:03,039 --> 01:14:07,479
a visa through the company. But but the day, the

1327
01:14:07,520 --> 01:14:09,279
morning we were supposed to present to the partners, I

1328
01:14:09,359 --> 01:14:12,520
went to Toronto because my mother was freaking out because

1329
01:14:12,560 --> 01:14:16,720
she needed her computer fixed. And seriously, this is brutal.

1330
01:14:17,079 --> 01:14:17,359
Speaker 5: So I.

1331
01:14:18,880 --> 01:14:21,800
Speaker 3: Flew out there planning to fly back on Sunday and

1332
01:14:21,840 --> 01:14:23,960
the meeting was on Monday. And I get to the

1333
01:14:24,000 --> 01:14:30,399
airport on Sunday and the border control they they called

1334
01:14:30,439 --> 01:14:32,119
me out. They're like, you're you're you're going down to work.

1335
01:14:32,119 --> 01:14:34,319
You're not going down for for for travel. I was like, no, no, no,

1336
01:14:34,399 --> 01:14:37,399
I'm going out to work. I explained, Actually no, I didn't.

1337
01:14:37,439 --> 01:14:39,600
I said I'm not going to work because I think

1338
01:14:39,600 --> 01:14:41,439
that's what I was supposed to say. The Lord's told

1339
01:14:41,439 --> 01:14:43,960
me not to say anything, and so they rejected me

1340
01:14:44,079 --> 01:14:47,560
from the border and so I'm sposed to would do

1341
01:14:47,640 --> 01:14:49,520
the presentation with you on the next morning, and so

1342
01:14:49,600 --> 01:14:51,039
a friend of mine came to pick me up at

1343
01:14:51,039 --> 01:14:54,039
the airport and drove me across the border, and we

1344
01:14:54,119 --> 01:14:56,760
went to the Buffalo border and just said we're going

1345
01:14:56,800 --> 01:14:59,680
to go see the David Letterman show. And the Border

1346
01:14:59,720 --> 01:15:00,920
Control I was like, yeah.

1347
01:15:00,720 --> 01:15:03,800
Speaker 1: Go ahead, wow'z I.

1348
01:15:04,239 --> 01:15:06,239
Speaker 3: I got on the late night flight from Buffalo to

1349
01:15:06,399 --> 01:15:09,000
San Francisco and we made the meeting in the morning.

1350
01:15:09,079 --> 01:15:11,600
Speaker 6: So yeah, I mean, technically we're not going out of

1351
01:15:11,640 --> 01:15:14,039
work because that would have required meant you of being

1352
01:15:14,079 --> 01:15:14,600
paid something.

1353
01:15:15,319 --> 01:15:15,479
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1354
01:15:15,479 --> 01:15:17,880
Speaker 3: I wasn't actually paid anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah, technically we weren't.

1355
01:15:17,880 --> 01:15:20,640
Actually you're not actually breaking the law. We're not breaking

1356
01:15:20,640 --> 01:15:25,560
the law because we we were not being paid anything. Yeah.

1357
01:15:26,720 --> 01:15:28,239
I should have told them that the Border Control.

1358
01:15:29,880 --> 01:15:33,439
Speaker 1: Anyway, it was very getting paid for something. No, no, yeah,

1359
01:15:33,439 --> 01:15:35,960
you're right exactly. We were not not being paid exactly.

1360
01:15:37,920 --> 01:15:38,279
But yeah.

1361
01:15:38,319 --> 01:15:41,359
Speaker 3: So so then they approved the deal that Monday, and

1362
01:15:42,680 --> 01:15:46,239
we started buildings up too, you know. And it wasn't

1363
01:15:46,239 --> 01:15:48,319
a business model for you know, back in those days,

1364
01:15:48,760 --> 01:15:49,079
well it was.

1365
01:15:49,119 --> 01:15:51,319
Speaker 6: It was kind of like a pre like YELP is

1366
01:15:51,399 --> 01:15:54,479
like business model is similar to sort of yell But

1367
01:15:54,520 --> 01:15:56,680
it was at a time when most businesses didn't didn't

1368
01:15:56,680 --> 01:15:59,439
know what the internet was so and most people didn't

1369
01:15:59,479 --> 01:16:02,760
haven't email address or yeah, we went online flinging to.

1370
01:16:02,760 --> 01:16:04,840
Speaker 3: Them what a website was. The internet was kind of

1371
01:16:04,880 --> 01:16:09,079
this cool thing. People were using Netscape browser and I

1372
01:16:09,159 --> 01:16:12,279
think by the end of it, we got eighteen thousand

1373
01:16:12,359 --> 01:16:15,399
businesses to be on our service, pay pain to be

1374
01:16:15,680 --> 01:16:18,399
like with websites and everything, you know a lot of

1375
01:16:18,439 --> 01:16:21,039
the things that you can do today, like automatically build websites.

1376
01:16:21,079 --> 01:16:23,880
We built a lot of those sort of tools to

1377
01:16:24,000 --> 01:16:26,720
make it easier to build websites. And we had to

1378
01:16:26,760 --> 01:16:27,680
sell door to door.

1379
01:16:29,279 --> 01:16:30,399
Speaker 1: Because that was the only way.

1380
01:16:31,119 --> 01:16:32,399
Speaker 8: Did you hire people or is it just to you

1381
01:16:32,479 --> 01:16:33,000
guys going.

1382
01:16:33,239 --> 01:16:34,479
Speaker 3: No, No, We had a team by that time because

1383
01:16:34,479 --> 01:16:37,800
we could hire a team. But I remember talking to

1384
01:16:37,840 --> 01:16:40,159
the Yellow Pages guy once and it was amazing. That

1385
01:16:40,279 --> 01:16:42,520
was the head of the Toronto Star that they owned

1386
01:16:42,920 --> 01:16:43,119
all the.

1387
01:16:43,159 --> 01:16:46,039
Speaker 1: Yellow Pages in the Yellow Pages will never die famous last.

1388
01:16:45,880 --> 01:16:49,920
Speaker 3: Work literally because we went to talk to him partner.

1389
01:16:50,000 --> 01:16:51,600
We said, we want to part with you and let's

1390
01:16:51,680 --> 01:16:54,199
just be one of your partners to do to put

1391
01:16:54,239 --> 01:16:57,520
the Yellow Pages online. And he picked up the Yellow Pages.

1392
01:16:57,600 --> 01:17:00,239
This book, this big thick book that full of as

1393
01:17:00,319 --> 01:17:02,399
this multi billion dollar Redney stream.

1394
01:17:02,560 --> 01:17:06,039
Speaker 1: I mean, these guys were so arrogant and so like

1395
01:17:06,319 --> 01:17:08,840
we are kings of the world and it will never end.

1396
01:17:09,399 --> 01:17:11,520
Speaker 3: He picked he picked up this book and grew it

1397
01:17:11,600 --> 01:17:13,840
at me and he said, do you ever think you're

1398
01:17:13,840 --> 01:17:18,439
going to replace this? And I was just literally like,

1399
01:17:20,319 --> 01:17:22,439
I mean my head and my head is like, dude,

1400
01:17:22,479 --> 01:17:23,319
you're already dead.

1401
01:17:28,560 --> 01:17:31,199
Speaker 4: The anti Tesla people, you know, guess cars.

1402
01:17:30,960 --> 01:17:35,920
Speaker 3: Will never die. Yeah, But I mean, like we we

1403
01:17:36,079 --> 01:17:37,880
saw the growth of the Internet, we saw the use

1404
01:17:37,920 --> 01:17:40,079
of the Yellow Pages, We saw even more our competitors

1405
01:17:40,119 --> 01:17:43,560
and stuff, and no one was using the paper yellow

1406
01:17:43,600 --> 01:17:47,640
Pages if you had the choice, yes, exactly, no one.

1407
01:17:48,760 --> 01:17:50,920
And so so at that point, very few people who

1408
01:17:50,920 --> 01:17:52,439
are on the internet. So it was really a question

1409
01:17:52,479 --> 01:17:55,039
of really is the Internet going to succeed, which we

1410
01:17:55,159 --> 01:17:57,319
were huge believers in, and these guys were not, you know,

1411
01:17:57,560 --> 01:17:58,520
they didn't even clue in.

1412
01:17:59,119 --> 01:18:01,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, there was like one one point country after another.

1413
01:18:01,720 --> 01:18:03,880
We say like, listen, we'll just put your l pays online,

1414
01:18:04,119 --> 01:18:06,439
gonna cost very little. You know, you're still own all

1415
01:18:06,479 --> 01:18:09,800
the content and everything. And they're like, just throw us,

1416
01:18:09,840 --> 01:18:10,199
throw us.

1417
01:18:10,159 --> 01:18:12,880
Speaker 1: Out of the office. Yeah, you know, like no, and

1418
01:18:13,039 --> 01:18:14,159
how do you even suggest this?

1419
01:18:16,239 --> 01:18:16,880
Speaker 3: Extraordinary?

1420
01:18:16,920 --> 01:18:19,479
Speaker 1: And we're like, okay, I guess we'll just build it

1421
01:18:19,760 --> 01:18:22,520
and we're Yeah.

1422
01:18:22,760 --> 01:18:24,359
Speaker 3: But it's been interesting to watch over the years where

1423
01:18:24,520 --> 01:18:29,680
like in PayPal, the competitors were not uh banks, you know,

1424
01:18:29,880 --> 01:18:31,880
even though that should have been the competitive No, there

1425
01:18:31,920 --> 01:18:34,199
were there were banks that try to compete, but wasn't

1426
01:18:34,199 --> 01:18:36,199
it eBay mostly that was sort of the band.

1427
01:18:37,560 --> 01:18:38,000
Speaker 1: Bull point.

1428
01:18:38,880 --> 01:18:42,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, that which but it wasn't exactly like PayPal. But

1429
01:18:42,920 --> 01:18:45,840
generally EVA had an issue with trying to get payment

1430
01:18:45,920 --> 01:18:47,560
for stuff like like two.

1431
01:18:47,479 --> 01:18:49,680
Speaker 1: People would have to mail checks to each other.

1432
01:18:50,520 --> 01:18:51,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's gonna work.

1433
01:18:52,239 --> 01:18:53,680
Speaker 6: If you have mail a check and you receive the

1434
01:18:53,760 --> 01:18:55,439
check and how do you know the checks real? Then

1435
01:18:55,479 --> 01:18:58,680
you've got to you know, cash check and take you know,

1436
01:18:59,319 --> 01:19:02,960
two to five day for the money to transfer. So

1437
01:19:03,279 --> 01:19:05,640
it could take two weeks before somebody had confirmed payment

1438
01:19:05,760 --> 01:19:08,680
and then I then they would ship you the item

1439
01:19:08,880 --> 01:19:12,920
and so that the transaction velocity was very low. As

1440
01:19:12,960 --> 01:19:16,600
a result, if you had instant payment, you improved transaction

1441
01:19:16,680 --> 01:19:20,520
velostity dramatically, like factor of you know, maybe three to five.

1442
01:19:20,840 --> 01:19:21,039
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1443
01:19:21,880 --> 01:19:24,439
Speaker 3: I've just sort of seen that the when you when

1444
01:19:24,479 --> 01:19:28,039
in into industry is disrupted, that you worry about the

1445
01:19:28,159 --> 01:19:30,560
major players. I mean, when we saw a test that

1446
01:19:30,640 --> 01:19:33,479
we were aspiring to be the GM of the twenty

1447
01:19:33,520 --> 01:19:38,000
first century. Four years later, GM went bankrupt. You're like, oh, okay,

1448
01:19:38,000 --> 01:19:40,840
we don't we don't read. We're good, We're good, We're good,

1449
01:19:42,560 --> 01:19:45,119
and uh and and it's you know, whoever is going

1450
01:19:45,199 --> 01:19:47,000
to be the main competitors. You know, we don't know yet,

1451
01:19:47,039 --> 01:19:51,960
but uh, it may not be the entrenched players, may

1452
01:19:52,039 --> 01:19:57,439
be sort of other companies. And so so that happened

1453
01:19:57,439 --> 01:20:00,119
it up two where we we we tried our our

1454
01:20:00,239 --> 01:20:03,000
best to partner with the industry because that seemed like

1455
01:20:03,079 --> 01:20:04,720
the best way to make some money and actually have

1456
01:20:04,800 --> 01:20:07,720
a revenue model. And we ended up finding the newspapers

1457
01:20:07,760 --> 01:20:09,880
to be a better partner because they didn't have the

1458
01:20:09,960 --> 01:20:13,279
Yellow Pages business, and I think they seem we're smarter.

1459
01:20:13,520 --> 01:20:18,319
Their classifized business was getting eaten away by Craigslist. You know,

1460
01:20:18,399 --> 01:20:22,039
before craigslist classifies, was the bread and butter of the newspaper.

1461
01:20:22,800 --> 01:20:25,800
And of course anyone who used Craigslist would never use

1462
01:20:26,039 --> 01:20:29,159
the newspapers. So it was it was those folks seemed

1463
01:20:29,159 --> 01:20:33,039
to have a better Uh, at least some of the

1464
01:20:33,079 --> 01:20:36,479
players had a more more vision of the future, and

1465
01:20:36,640 --> 01:20:40,079
so our business became putting major newspapers in New York

1466
01:20:40,159 --> 01:20:45,359
Times to all of the Philadelphia acquirers, Chicago Tribune or whatever,

1467
01:20:45,479 --> 01:20:48,800
all the main players, all the Alley Times, everyone, and

1468
01:20:48,880 --> 01:20:51,039
then we started going internationally doing the same thing. So

1469
01:20:51,119 --> 01:20:53,560
if you went on to the New York Times website

1470
01:20:53,680 --> 01:20:55,640
and you wanted to search for a restaurant, of course

1471
01:20:55,760 --> 01:20:57,560
have all these reviews. Or if you wanted to search

1472
01:20:57,560 --> 01:20:59,920
for a home, then you could. You could. We tie

1473
01:21:00,039 --> 01:21:03,720
the mls together with maps and directions. So all of

1474
01:21:03,800 --> 01:21:06,479
these services that we now use and take for granted

1475
01:21:06,560 --> 01:21:10,199
that use maps and directions, we we did that all

1476
01:21:10,359 --> 01:21:12,720
in the nineties to find a business model.

1477
01:21:15,720 --> 01:21:19,720
Speaker 5: Yeah you do PayPal after zup too, Why do didn't

1478
01:21:19,760 --> 01:21:21,720
you go like straight into sustainable.

1479
01:21:21,359 --> 01:21:25,119
Speaker 1: Energy, right, so.

1480
01:21:27,880 --> 01:21:31,880
Speaker 6: Kind of recall things that are quite a while. So

1481
01:21:32,000 --> 01:21:36,079
it would have been like ninety eight when Compact offered

1482
01:21:36,199 --> 01:21:41,840
to acquire zip to, and which I think it was

1483
01:21:41,880 --> 01:21:43,439
a good thing to put them to acquire it because

1484
01:21:43,479 --> 01:21:46,960
as I mentioned that, the newspapers actually when the media

1485
01:21:47,000 --> 01:21:49,680
companies had too much control over zip too, so they

1486
01:21:49,720 --> 01:21:52,920
were not we had great technology that was not being

1487
01:21:53,000 --> 01:21:57,000
deployed effectively, and they would just generally be averse to

1488
01:21:57,039 --> 01:22:00,399
anything that could remotely be competitive with their new papers.

1489
01:22:00,960 --> 01:22:06,600
So so we're sort of trapped in this situation and

1490
01:22:07,840 --> 01:22:10,159
they think of Compact came along and bought the company

1491
01:22:10,760 --> 01:22:13,319
in late ninety eight and the deal closed early ninety nine.

1492
01:22:13,880 --> 01:22:17,800
So that as a result that Kim that I had

1493
01:22:17,840 --> 01:22:21,000
some capital twenty million dollars with something out of it.

1494
01:22:21,600 --> 01:22:27,039
And I think the thing that was frustrating to me

1495
01:22:27,239 --> 01:22:32,000
was that we're built incredible technology and it had not

1496
01:22:32,159 --> 01:22:37,640
been used. It was just sort of like very disappointing.

1497
01:22:38,800 --> 01:22:40,239
You know, we put a lot of work into this

1498
01:22:40,319 --> 01:22:43,359
technology and just wasn't being used. So I was like, Okay,

1499
01:22:43,399 --> 01:22:45,640
I'm going to I want to do one more thing

1500
01:22:45,720 --> 01:22:47,600
on the Internet, just to show that we can make

1501
01:22:47,680 --> 01:22:52,880
technology that is, when it's used properly, can be extremely effective.

1502
01:22:53,880 --> 01:22:57,279
So I thought about what what's digital? Essentially, what's what's it?

1503
01:22:57,319 --> 01:23:00,720
What's what exists in the form of information and is

1504
01:23:00,760 --> 01:23:05,840
also not high bandwidth because it in ninety nine people

1505
01:23:05,920 --> 01:23:09,399
still mostly had modems, so you couldn't like video is

1506
01:23:09,479 --> 01:23:14,199
not really feasible in ninety nine, so but money is

1507
01:23:14,279 --> 01:23:19,600
low bandwidth and digital effectively mostly digital. So it's like,

1508
01:23:19,680 --> 01:23:25,239
what can we do to make money work better. And

1509
01:23:25,600 --> 01:23:28,439
the money, in my views, is essentially an information system

1510
01:23:28,520 --> 01:23:33,479
for label allocation, so it has no power in and

1511
01:23:33,560 --> 01:23:38,239
of itself. It's a it's like a database for this

1512
01:23:39,000 --> 01:23:42,199
for guiding people what what as to what they should do.

1513
01:23:44,600 --> 01:23:46,399
And so you can think of banks as a set

1514
01:23:46,439 --> 01:23:52,239
of heterogeneous databases with that that are actually not very secure.

1515
01:23:53,199 --> 01:23:57,680
And certainly the the monetary system, the transfer system of

1516
01:23:57,880 --> 01:24:00,479
checks is not is very insecure. Still isn't secure, so

1517
01:24:00,560 --> 01:24:09,000
our credit cards and and it's it's still mostly batch processing.

1518
01:24:09,039 --> 01:24:11,920
And it was entirely batch processing that day, so it

1519
01:24:12,039 --> 01:24:15,920
was not so payments were money. It was just like

1520
01:24:16,000 --> 01:24:23,039
hitero geneous, high latency, low security collection of databases. That's

1521
01:24:23,079 --> 01:24:28,119
what banks are. And so just from an information three standpoint,

1522
01:24:28,159 --> 01:24:30,600
there should be something that could be much better if

1523
01:24:30,680 --> 01:24:36,880
it could be real time uh secure and you know,

1524
01:24:37,720 --> 01:24:45,279
just very fast. Essentially it's just one real time database.

1525
01:24:48,239 --> 01:24:56,079
So it's like, okay, let's tradable that. So that's that's

1526
01:24:56,199 --> 01:24:57,920
that's what x dot com was.

1527
01:24:58,720 --> 01:24:59,199
Speaker 7: And then.

1528
01:25:00,560 --> 01:25:02,399
Speaker 6: At the time I also thought what we should try

1529
01:25:02,399 --> 01:25:04,800
to do is just do all the financial things as well,

1530
01:25:05,039 --> 01:25:09,399
not just payments. I still think that's really what PayPal

1531
01:25:09,439 --> 01:25:12,039
should have done, but whatever, it's what areuner the bridge

1532
01:25:12,079 --> 01:25:17,000
at this point. And then there was a company that

1533
01:25:17,119 --> 01:25:22,039
was formed around the same time called Confinity, which was petertialed,

1534
01:25:22,079 --> 01:25:27,199
Max Left and Luke Nosak, David Sachs, Ken Howard and

1535
01:25:27,239 --> 01:25:32,600
neberthos and at x dot com there's also like Jeremy.

1536
01:25:32,239 --> 01:25:33,039
Speaker 1: Stuffleman and.

1537
01:25:34,720 --> 01:25:39,000
Speaker 6: Who created yelp roll off Botza, who then went on

1538
01:25:39,079 --> 01:25:42,159
to run Sequoia and and found YouTube that was it

1539
01:25:42,359 --> 01:25:42,920
was x dot com.

1540
01:25:43,000 --> 01:25:43,760
Speaker 1: So we just had this like.

1541
01:25:46,119 --> 01:25:49,079
Speaker 6: Two companies with like a crazy amount of talent. X

1542
01:25:49,119 --> 01:25:52,640
dot Common Confinity and Confinity started as a palm pilot

1543
01:25:52,680 --> 01:25:58,159
cryptography company. Back when you you could communicate via the

1544
01:25:58,199 --> 01:26:02,000
infrared port of a home pilot, Yeah, they had one.

1545
01:26:03,159 --> 01:26:06,720
So it was like, so you could you can basically

1546
01:26:06,920 --> 01:26:11,680
communicate cryptotokens between pompouts using the infrared port and then

1547
01:26:11,720 --> 01:26:14,760
reconcile them on a piece on a PC. And obviously

1548
01:26:14,840 --> 01:26:17,920
that's they evolved to go on the in the payments

1549
01:26:17,960 --> 01:26:22,279
direction as well. And we were both in Palo Alto,

1550
01:26:22,479 --> 01:26:27,000
like literally block away from each other. I think at

1551
01:26:27,039 --> 01:26:30,560
one point we're briefly even in the same building that

1552
01:26:30,720 --> 01:26:35,680
was you know, yeah, so, so we were just competing

1553
01:26:35,760 --> 01:26:40,359
with each other like maniacs and and and then we

1554
01:26:41,760 --> 01:26:48,000
had uh a coffee and University Avenue and said, hey,

1555
01:26:48,680 --> 01:26:50,680
when don't we just combine our efforts or we're just

1556
01:26:50,680 --> 01:26:52,039
gonna bludge each other to death here.

1557
01:26:54,439 --> 01:26:57,399
Speaker 1: So we merged Confinity and x dot com.

1558
01:26:59,000 --> 01:27:02,720
Speaker 6: And raised million dollars in the space of three weeks

1559
01:27:02,880 --> 01:27:07,800
in March of two thousand. Yeah, and then April of

1560
01:27:07,800 --> 01:27:08,960
the market went into free fall.

1561
01:27:09,680 --> 01:27:09,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1562
01:27:11,119 --> 01:27:15,399
Speaker 6: So yeah, I was like, I remember that that was

1563
01:27:15,439 --> 01:27:17,640
insane and we kind of thought it was going to

1564
01:27:17,680 --> 01:27:19,199
go into free fall, but like, we better get this

1565
01:27:19,239 --> 01:27:22,520
thing done fast or we're both gonna die.

1566
01:27:23,359 --> 01:27:25,680
Speaker 1: So and so.

1567
01:27:28,119 --> 01:27:30,920
Speaker 6: Xo com was technically the acquire of Confinity, but it

1568
01:27:31,039 --> 01:27:33,760
was a you know, fifty point one and forty nine

1569
01:27:33,800 --> 01:27:39,680
point nine or something like that. And and then there's

1570
01:27:39,760 --> 01:27:41,600
a lot of drama that there was so much drama

1571
01:27:42,920 --> 01:27:45,840
at at x dot com. And the company was called

1572
01:27:45,920 --> 01:27:47,680
x dot com for about a year and then we

1573
01:27:47,840 --> 01:27:50,319
changed the company name to the product name. The product

1574
01:27:50,359 --> 01:27:56,560
the product was PayPal, but all the incorporation documents and everything,

1575
01:27:56,600 --> 01:27:59,079
it's all my incorporation.

1576
01:27:58,760 --> 01:28:00,680
Speaker 4: Documents that came up with PayPal name.

1577
01:28:01,960 --> 01:28:02,840
Speaker 1: I actually don't know.

1578
01:28:03,960 --> 01:28:06,279
Speaker 4: People call you guys the PayPal in mafia. Now, you know,

1579
01:28:07,199 --> 01:28:08,279
deal with that in this book.

1580
01:28:09,880 --> 01:28:12,880
Speaker 6: You know, I don't know who did the PayPal. I

1581
01:28:13,000 --> 01:28:14,920
was never a huge fan of PayPal as a name,

1582
01:28:16,960 --> 01:28:22,319
the reason being that I thought it made sense for

1583
01:28:23,800 --> 01:28:29,479
the company to kind of broader, be much broader. Yeah, exactly.

1584
01:28:30,039 --> 01:28:32,239
I mean, if you don't know yourself to payments, then

1585
01:28:32,319 --> 01:28:34,880
necessarily people want to transfer money out of the system.

1586
01:28:36,039 --> 01:28:38,399
And as soon as they transfer money out of the system,

1587
01:28:38,479 --> 01:28:41,800
the efficiency of the database drops dramatically because now you're

1588
01:28:41,800 --> 01:28:45,279
in the traditional banking world. So if you just offer

1589
01:28:45,359 --> 01:28:48,399
all the things that if you just basically address all

1590
01:28:48,439 --> 01:28:50,199
the reasons why people are taking money out of the

1591
01:28:50,239 --> 01:28:53,239
PayPal system, so you have to provide them with checks

1592
01:28:53,359 --> 01:28:55,880
so that you have a bridge to the legacy transaction system.

1593
01:28:56,119 --> 01:28:58,800
You got to provide them with a debit card, provide

1594
01:28:58,800 --> 01:28:59,880
them with the ability to.

1595
01:29:01,560 --> 01:29:04,720
Speaker 1: Get a loan, and that kind of thing, and.

1596
01:29:06,319 --> 01:29:10,600
Speaker 6: That these were all ancelary to accelerating the velocity and

1597
01:29:10,680 --> 01:29:16,800
accuracy and security of payments. Then if basically payper would

1598
01:29:16,800 --> 01:29:20,399
be all the money is, it would just suck all

1599
01:29:20,399 --> 01:29:21,880
the money out of the banks. And they wouldn't be

1600
01:29:22,079 --> 01:29:27,960
the banks would go away. Yeah, so any plan you're

1601
01:29:28,000 --> 01:29:32,680
going to do with the I wrote, if they're just

1602
01:29:32,760 --> 01:29:35,199
execute the business, you know, the product plan I wrote

1603
01:29:35,239 --> 01:29:37,000
in July two thousands, let's just do that.

1604
01:29:37,319 --> 01:29:40,640
Speaker 1: But they I talked to them several times, but they

1605
01:29:40,680 --> 01:29:41,079
didn't do it.

1606
01:29:41,920 --> 01:29:44,039
Speaker 4: So why did you? And PayPal kind of part way

1607
01:29:44,039 --> 01:29:46,319
of what was really the drama that led to that,

1608
01:29:46,760 --> 01:29:48,479
you know separation.

1609
01:29:48,239 --> 01:29:52,680
Speaker 6: Ultimately, Well, things were very dicey in two thousand. You know,

1610
01:29:53,199 --> 01:29:57,479
companies were dying like all over the place, so obvious

1611
01:29:57,479 --> 01:30:03,319
here of the combined company, and we're doing quite well

1612
01:30:03,359 --> 01:30:06,279
from a growth standpoint. We're like adding one hundred thousand

1613
01:30:06,359 --> 01:30:08,600
users a month type of thing, which back then was

1614
01:30:08,680 --> 01:30:14,119
a lot. But financially things were tough and we needed

1615
01:30:14,159 --> 01:30:18,560
to raise financing around We're also like there's some technical

1616
01:30:18,680 --> 01:30:22,159
questions around what what code architecture would we go with?

1617
01:30:23,079 --> 01:30:24,960
And then there's also a branding question, like I said,

1618
01:30:25,000 --> 01:30:27,439
like I think we should not use PayPal as brand

1619
01:30:27,479 --> 01:30:30,840
because this is not consistent with being where all the

1620
01:30:30,880 --> 01:30:31,359
money is.

1621
01:30:34,239 --> 01:30:35,560
Speaker 1: We want to centralize database.

1622
01:30:37,039 --> 01:30:40,399
Speaker 6: So so I was kind of against the PayPal branding

1623
01:30:40,600 --> 01:30:42,840
and and I wanted to Basically, I wanted to do

1624
01:30:42,920 --> 01:30:46,199
a bunch of things that seemed extremely risky, and I

1625
01:30:47,159 --> 01:30:50,199
think those things would have would have worked out. But

1626
01:30:51,279 --> 01:30:56,079
at a time when companies are dropping like flies, and

1627
01:30:56,279 --> 01:30:59,159
I'm proposing that we do all these things that sound

1628
01:30:59,279 --> 01:31:02,520
very risky, this is this is just much too scary

1629
01:31:02,640 --> 01:31:04,039
for the rest of the team.

1630
01:31:04,439 --> 01:31:07,000
Speaker 4: You seem to be attracted to crazy ideas that other

1631
01:31:07,079 --> 01:31:10,560
people are like that, like, you know, I think the

1632
01:31:10,640 --> 01:31:13,199
Autopilot one is a great example where everyone's kind of

1633
01:31:13,279 --> 01:31:16,680
trying the spatial approach to self driving. You know, they're

1634
01:31:16,800 --> 01:31:18,920
doing way more for ten years nobody cares, and you

1635
01:31:19,000 --> 01:31:22,520
come out and say, hey, we think vision is the

1636
01:31:22,560 --> 01:31:26,960
way forward and deep learning and vision you know, will

1637
01:31:27,039 --> 01:31:30,000
take us all the way there. How do you find like, yeah,

1638
01:31:30,039 --> 01:31:32,760
the courage inside to I mean.

1639
01:31:32,720 --> 01:31:34,239
Speaker 10: People have to be coming up with you all the

1640
01:31:34,319 --> 01:31:36,800
time and you know, thinking that you're an idiot or

1641
01:31:37,199 --> 01:31:39,279
it's never going to happen, and you know, how do

1642
01:31:39,319 --> 01:31:42,079
you find that in yourself to like go through all

1643
01:31:42,159 --> 01:31:46,560
that resistance and still be confident in you know, your thesis.

1644
01:31:49,039 --> 01:31:51,000
Speaker 6: I mean I try to be hyper rational, so it's

1645
01:31:51,079 --> 01:31:55,920
not you know, it's like if this is if the

1646
01:31:56,000 --> 01:31:59,680
reasoning fits, and you're not violating loads of physics or something,

1647
01:31:59,800 --> 01:32:06,359
then that the thing you should do. So and I

1648
01:32:06,439 --> 01:32:10,960
guess at the other day, if we lost all the money,

1649
01:32:11,119 --> 01:32:13,960
I wouldn't as long as we didn't lose other people's money.

1650
01:32:14,000 --> 01:32:16,000
I guess I just lost lose my money out of mind.

1651
01:32:20,119 --> 01:32:23,760
These things just don't seem that crazy to me, so

1652
01:32:25,199 --> 01:32:26,000
like I think, if

1653
01:32:26,960 --> 01:32:29,960
Speaker 1: If Thanks for listening, See you in the next episode.