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That's Chumbu Casino dot com 24 00:00:56.640 --> 00:00:58.320 and live the Chumba Lane No Persons. 25 00:00:58.479 --> 00:01:00.799 Every Dvoidy by Lost Eater Conif it's eighty. 26 00:01:00.600 --> 00:01:11.120 Plus, you are now listening to True Murder The most 27 00:01:11.120 --> 00:01:14.560 shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that 28 00:01:14.599 --> 00:01:15.640 have written about them. 29 00:01:16.319 --> 00:01:23.519 Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK every week another fascinating 30 00:01:23.519 --> 00:01:26.799 author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in 31 00:01:26.840 --> 00:01:31.359 true crime history. True Murder with your host journalist and 32 00:01:31.400 --> 00:01:33.840 author Dan Zufanski. 33 00:01:41.519 --> 00:01:46.519 Good Evening. Boston had its Strangler, California had the Zodiac Killer, 34 00:01:46.760 --> 00:01:49.760 and in the depths of the Great Depression, Cleveland had 35 00:01:49.799 --> 00:01:54.120 the Mad Butcher of Kingsbury Run. On September fifth, nineteen 36 00:01:54.200 --> 00:01:57.799 thirty four, a young beechcomber made a gruesome discovery on 37 00:01:57.840 --> 00:02:01.519 the shores of Cleveland's Lake Ere the lower half of 38 00:02:01.519 --> 00:02:05.879 a female torso neatly severed at the waist. The victim, 39 00:02:05.959 --> 00:02:09.719 dubbed the Lady of the Lake, was only the first 40 00:02:09.759 --> 00:02:13.080 of a butcher's dozen. Over the next four years, twelve 41 00:02:13.120 --> 00:02:16.479 more bodies would be scattered across the city. The bodies 42 00:02:16.520 --> 00:02:20.400 were dismembered with surgical precision and drained of blood. Some 43 00:02:20.439 --> 00:02:25.000 were beheaded while still alive. Terror gripped the city. Amid 44 00:02:25.039 --> 00:02:29.120 the growing uproar, Cleveland's besieged mayor turned to his newly 45 00:02:29.159 --> 00:02:33.599 appointed Director of Public Safety, Eliot Ness. Nass had come 46 00:02:33.639 --> 00:02:38.000 to Cleveland fresh from his headline grabbing exploits in Chicago, 47 00:02:38.159 --> 00:02:41.400 where he and his band of untouchables led the frontline 48 00:02:41.439 --> 00:02:45.319 assault on al Capone's bootlegging empire. Now he would confront 49 00:02:45.360 --> 00:02:49.639 the case that would redefine his storied career. Award winning 50 00:02:49.680 --> 00:02:53.400 author Daniel Stashauer shines a fresh light on one of 51 00:02:53.479 --> 00:02:57.039 the most notorious puddles in the annals of crime and 52 00:02:57.199 --> 00:03:01.400 uncovers the gripping story of Ness's hunt sadistic killer who 53 00:03:01.479 --> 00:03:04.560 was as brilliant as he was cool and composed, a 54 00:03:04.680 --> 00:03:08.319 mastermind who was able to hide in plain sight. American 55 00:03:08.360 --> 00:03:12.319 Demon reconstructs this ultimate battle of wits between a hero 56 00:03:12.680 --> 00:03:15.479 and a madman. The book that we're featuring this evening 57 00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:19.360 is American Demon, Elliot Ness and the Hunt for America's 58 00:03:19.479 --> 00:03:22.479 Jack the Ripper, with my special guest, journalist and author 59 00:03:22.719 --> 00:03:25.960 Daniel Stashauer. Welcome to the program. And thank you so 60 00:03:26.080 --> 00:03:28.439 much for this interview, Daniel Stashauer. 61 00:03:28.639 --> 00:03:30.360 It's my pleasure. Thanks for having me. 62 00:03:30.360 --> 00:03:34.039 Dan, thank you so much, and congratulations on this incredible, 63 00:03:34.319 --> 00:03:36.520 incredible story and book. 64 00:03:36.840 --> 00:03:37.360 Well, thank you. 65 00:03:37.680 --> 00:03:42.840 Let's get right to September fifth, nineteen thirty four, and 66 00:03:43.719 --> 00:03:46.599 we had introduced the Lady in the Lake. This is 67 00:03:46.599 --> 00:03:50.000 the south shore of Lake Erie. September fifth, nineteen thirty four, 68 00:03:50.560 --> 00:03:54.599 A man named Frank Lagrassey sees something, an object, half 69 00:03:54.639 --> 00:03:57.759 buried in the sand. What is found on that day, 70 00:03:57.800 --> 00:03:59.520 September fifth, nineteen thirty four. 71 00:04:00.680 --> 00:04:05.400 It's a grim, grizzly story that is unfortunately kind of 72 00:04:05.400 --> 00:04:08.680 typical of the discoveries that were made throughout this series 73 00:04:08.680 --> 00:04:13.000 of crimes. He was out gathering driftwood and he spots 74 00:04:13.039 --> 00:04:15.159 something sort of half buried in the sand, and it 75 00:04:15.240 --> 00:04:18.519 turns out to be a hunk of a female torso. 76 00:04:19.199 --> 00:04:23.079 And as you would imagine, he in many ways doesn't 77 00:04:23.519 --> 00:04:26.040 I can't quite process what he's seeing. But over the 78 00:04:26.079 --> 00:04:31.120 next few days, a second section turns up. It's found 79 00:04:31.120 --> 00:04:34.720 to be a match with this first hunk of remains, 80 00:04:35.000 --> 00:04:40.360 and other body parts are found or glimpsed up and 81 00:04:40.399 --> 00:04:44.199 down the shoreline. There's even an account of a little 82 00:04:44.240 --> 00:04:47.079 girl who was wading in the waves of the lake 83 00:04:47.199 --> 00:04:50.600 and thought she saw a hand waving at her from 84 00:04:50.639 --> 00:04:54.879 beneath the surface. At that early stage it was considered 85 00:04:55.000 --> 00:04:58.839 naturally enough to be an isolated incident, although the police 86 00:04:58.879 --> 00:05:03.800 and searchers did mount to pretty pretty exhaustive effort to 87 00:05:03.839 --> 00:05:08.680 find any further remains and to piece together in every 88 00:05:08.759 --> 00:05:13.319 sense what had happened to this woman. But it proved 89 00:05:13.319 --> 00:05:14.319 to be only the beginning. 90 00:05:15.319 --> 00:05:17.759 What were some of the statements that appeared in the 91 00:05:17.879 --> 00:05:25.240 press regarding the expertness or amateurness of the dismemberment that 92 00:05:25.399 --> 00:05:26.560 was done on the body. 93 00:05:26.800 --> 00:05:29.639 Well, that's the thing, I think, one of the things 94 00:05:29.639 --> 00:05:33.319 throughout this series of crimes that caught the attention of 95 00:05:34.120 --> 00:05:37.199 the coroner. There were two coroners in place over the 96 00:05:37.240 --> 00:05:39.519 series of over the course of the series of crimes, 97 00:05:40.240 --> 00:05:43.800 but from the beginning, the coroner was struck by the 98 00:05:43.800 --> 00:05:48.759 fact that the dismemberments appeared to show a surgical precision, 99 00:05:48.959 --> 00:05:53.839 a practiced hand, and the questions were raised in this 100 00:05:54.040 --> 00:05:58.199 first instance of whether it was possible that either this 101 00:05:58.519 --> 00:06:01.000 woman had been chopped up in the blades in the 102 00:06:01.040 --> 00:06:05.399 propeller blades of a passing boat, or, in a phrase 103 00:06:05.399 --> 00:06:09.439 that appeared in one of the newspapers, a prankishly inclined 104 00:06:09.720 --> 00:06:14.319 medical student had disposed of these bodies, or either as 105 00:06:14.319 --> 00:06:17.040 a prank or was just getting rid of them. The 106 00:06:17.120 --> 00:06:20.319 coroner did not believe that was the case, and the coroner, 107 00:06:20.959 --> 00:06:23.639 both at the time and in the crimes to come, 108 00:06:23.920 --> 00:06:28.560 was struck by the fact that whoever performed these dismemberments 109 00:06:28.680 --> 00:06:32.639 appeared to have a working knowledge of what he called 110 00:06:32.639 --> 00:06:36.839 the anatomical landmarks as they were approached. In other words, 111 00:06:37.240 --> 00:06:40.120 knew how to guide a sharp knife so that it 112 00:06:40.120 --> 00:06:46.399 would perform these dismemberments with skill, instead of what a 113 00:06:46.560 --> 00:06:50.800 person without this kind of background would have done, which 114 00:06:50.839 --> 00:06:54.079 would have involved a great deal more crude cuts and 115 00:06:54.160 --> 00:06:57.279 hacking and wrenching. That wasn't the case throughout. There were 116 00:06:57.680 --> 00:07:02.519 examples of a cruder work later on, but throughout the 117 00:07:02.560 --> 00:07:07.079 series of crimes a hallmark appeared to be this knowledge 118 00:07:07.399 --> 00:07:10.839 and surgical skill that led investigators to believe that they 119 00:07:10.879 --> 00:07:13.959 were looking for someone with some kind of medical training 120 00:07:14.040 --> 00:07:17.879 or background, either a surgeon or a doctor of some kind, 121 00:07:18.040 --> 00:07:19.199 or perhaps a butcher. 122 00:07:19.519 --> 00:07:23.879 Now you say that the papers dubbed this victim the 123 00:07:24.000 --> 00:07:26.360 Lady of the Lake. And then a few days later, 124 00:07:26.560 --> 00:07:30.199 readers of the Plain Dealer newspaper were introduced to the 125 00:07:30.279 --> 00:07:34.800 leader of the federal team, elliot Ness. And elliot Ness, 126 00:07:36.079 --> 00:07:39.560 as you can tell us tell our audience what he 127 00:07:39.720 --> 00:07:43.600 was fresh off coming from in terms of exploits in Chicago, 128 00:07:44.199 --> 00:07:47.360 and who had brought him into Cleveland, and what was 129 00:07:47.560 --> 00:07:48.519 his supposed rule. 130 00:07:48.839 --> 00:07:52.399 Well, sure, you know, people have their own ideas about 131 00:07:52.560 --> 00:07:55.800 who eliot Ness was and what he did. You know, 132 00:07:56.600 --> 00:07:58.800 when we think of elliot Ness, we tend to think 133 00:07:58.839 --> 00:08:03.000 of Chicago, think of a big truck smashing through the 134 00:08:03.040 --> 00:08:07.319 doors of one of al Capone's illicit breweries. And in 135 00:08:07.360 --> 00:08:10.199 many ways, Elliottess is exactly what you think he is. 136 00:08:10.279 --> 00:08:14.240 He was a hero, a man of great integrity and bravery, 137 00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:17.279 but he's more than the tough guy that we think 138 00:08:17.319 --> 00:08:20.199 we know from the TV and the movies. He rose 139 00:08:20.240 --> 00:08:23.399 to fame during the Prohibition years as the man who 140 00:08:23.480 --> 00:08:27.759 got al Capone, and he's remembered today as the leader 141 00:08:27.800 --> 00:08:32.240 of the Untouchables. This was a legendary team of Prohibition agents, 142 00:08:33.000 --> 00:08:35.919 and some people will remember the old black and white 143 00:08:35.960 --> 00:08:39.279 television series that ran from nineteen fifty nine to nineteen 144 00:08:39.320 --> 00:08:42.440 sixty three, and a lot of people, of course will 145 00:08:42.440 --> 00:08:44.759 have seen the movie with Kevin Costner and Robert de 146 00:08:44.840 --> 00:08:47.919 Niro that came out in nineteen eighty seven. But as 147 00:08:47.919 --> 00:08:51.960 I say, they think of Ness as a Chicago guy, 148 00:08:52.720 --> 00:08:57.519 we think of deep dish Petz, the Wrigley Field de Bears. Elliot. Ness, 149 00:08:58.440 --> 00:09:00.799 the real guy was more than that. He was an 150 00:09:00.799 --> 00:09:05.600 astonishingly forward thinking reformer. Yes, he was astonishingly brave, and 151 00:09:05.679 --> 00:09:09.679 his exploits were spectacular, but he was also interested in 152 00:09:10.559 --> 00:09:15.240 crime prevention as much as combating crime. And he also 153 00:09:16.120 --> 00:09:19.200 on screen we see him solving his problems with violence, 154 00:09:19.480 --> 00:09:21.759 and in real life he rarely carried a gun. In fact, 155 00:09:21.799 --> 00:09:23.679 he once told a friend he didn't need it, that 156 00:09:23.759 --> 00:09:26.480 the empty holster was enough. But he brought off some 157 00:09:26.519 --> 00:09:30.559 remarkable things and some very brave, rave exploits with that 158 00:09:30.679 --> 00:09:31.440 empty holster. 159 00:09:31.879 --> 00:09:37.399 Now, so Elliott is brought into Cleveland to as you say, 160 00:09:37.480 --> 00:09:41.919 some reforms, and he is there to reform the police department. 161 00:09:42.440 --> 00:09:45.679 Yes, you know, time of this first crime, he was 162 00:09:45.759 --> 00:09:49.200 there doing mop up work as part of as a 163 00:09:49.240 --> 00:09:52.600 liquor coup. What was you know, prohibition had been repealed, 164 00:09:52.600 --> 00:09:54.720 that there was still work to be done. But he 165 00:09:55.399 --> 00:09:59.159 You know, what is often misunderstood about Ness is that 166 00:09:59.360 --> 00:10:02.240 his career with the Untouchables was brief, and it was 167 00:10:02.240 --> 00:10:04.679 pretty much wrapped up by the time he was thirty 168 00:10:04.759 --> 00:10:08.080 years old. He came to Cleveland and he landed a 169 00:10:08.159 --> 00:10:11.399 job as the director of public Safety, and this is 170 00:10:11.399 --> 00:10:14.080 a position that put him in charge of the entire 171 00:10:14.159 --> 00:10:18.000 police department and the fire department and a whole lot more. 172 00:10:18.159 --> 00:10:21.039 It's a big, big promotion, and in fact, a lot 173 00:10:21.120 --> 00:10:23.720 of people felt that the job was so big that 174 00:10:23.759 --> 00:10:27.279 he couldn't be done, particularly by Elliott Nass, who was 175 00:10:27.320 --> 00:10:30.480 the youngest person ever to hold the position in Chicago. 176 00:10:31.039 --> 00:10:33.279 With the Untouchables, he'd been in charge of a handful 177 00:10:33.320 --> 00:10:36.600 of guys, and now he's running thousands of city employees, 178 00:10:37.200 --> 00:10:39.159 and he's going to have a real struggle not only 179 00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:41.559 to do the job, but to live up to his 180 00:10:41.600 --> 00:10:45.399 own press clippings, to the reputation that he'd accrued in Chicago. 181 00:10:45.879 --> 00:10:49.120 His marching orders in Cleveland are to clean up a 182 00:10:49.159 --> 00:10:54.399 police department that was basically rotting from within because of corruption, 183 00:10:54.639 --> 00:10:57.799 and also to try to break the stranglehold that the 184 00:10:57.840 --> 00:11:00.759 mob had over the city at that time. Time, Cleveland 185 00:11:00.879 --> 00:11:04.639 was nearly as mobbed up as Chicago was. So you know, 186 00:11:04.720 --> 00:11:09.159 that's that's a pretty big job the police department take 187 00:11:09.200 --> 00:11:12.480 down the mob. And the wonder of it all is 188 00:11:12.519 --> 00:11:16.440 the amount of success he had. His timing was impeccable. 189 00:11:16.480 --> 00:11:20.039 As one of his reporter friends said, the city seldom 190 00:11:20.200 --> 00:11:22.720 had needed a hero so badly. 191 00:11:23.399 --> 00:11:27.399 You write about that. Elliott and Ness had the ability 192 00:11:27.480 --> 00:11:32.840 to form a gang busting unit with a unique a 193 00:11:32.879 --> 00:11:36.279 strategy that he employed, and he was able to do 194 00:11:36.639 --> 00:11:39.720 in that being that he put a elite squad of 195 00:11:39.840 --> 00:11:43.759 people together that he made sure that we're honest, not 196 00:11:43.879 --> 00:11:48.159 open to bribery, and he knew their backgrounds and so 197 00:11:48.279 --> 00:11:51.679 he was able to handpick this this group called the untouchables. 198 00:11:51.759 --> 00:11:54.519 When he came to Cleveland, he had the same idea. 199 00:11:54.720 --> 00:11:57.960 Tell us about that, Yeah, that's right, Dan, he's been 200 00:11:58.000 --> 00:12:01.440 brought in to clean up the police department. There's a 201 00:12:01.519 --> 00:12:05.480 whole lot of entrenched corruption going on a city that 202 00:12:05.639 --> 00:12:09.440 runs on bribes and payoffs, which was this was an 203 00:12:09.440 --> 00:12:13.799 equation that Nests understood. He'd seen it in Chicago. So 204 00:12:14.879 --> 00:12:20.519 as part of his effort to bring in reform, he's 205 00:12:20.600 --> 00:12:24.519 looking to younger police officers who haven't had a chance 206 00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:30.240 to become part of this entrenched network of corruption, but 207 00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:32.559 also who are going to be more open to the 208 00:12:32.679 --> 00:12:37.519 kinds of modern policing techniques that he is trying to 209 00:12:37.600 --> 00:12:41.679 phase in. He had a group called the Unknowns, and 210 00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:46.639 they were people that he handpicked, worked very closely with, 211 00:12:47.000 --> 00:12:51.639 and they initially at least were helping him to root 212 00:12:51.679 --> 00:12:55.759 out the corruption within the force. Now for nests, that 213 00:12:56.039 --> 00:12:58.679 was the job. The mayor of Cleveland, a guy who'd 214 00:12:58.720 --> 00:13:01.559 just been elected. His name was Gerald Burton, was trying 215 00:13:01.639 --> 00:13:05.639 to get the city back on its feet economically after 216 00:13:05.679 --> 00:13:11.360 the devastating effects of the Great Depression, and Burton believed 217 00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:17.639 that the city's economic fortune was tied, absolutely tethered to 218 00:13:18.279 --> 00:13:24.799 this campaign to clean up crime and corruption, that businesses 219 00:13:25.279 --> 00:13:28.240 and businessmen would not be drawn to the city so 220 00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:31.039 long as they were going to have to pay theirs 221 00:13:31.039 --> 00:13:34.559 song as there was this network of racketeering that that 222 00:13:34.679 --> 00:13:37.279 ran through every level of the city and its government. 223 00:13:37.759 --> 00:13:42.080 So Ness had the support of the mayor and a 224 00:13:42.120 --> 00:13:46.600 group of independent businessmen who really wanted to see him succeed. 225 00:13:47.320 --> 00:13:51.600 And part of what he did, particularly at first, was 226 00:13:51.639 --> 00:13:57.360 incredibly audacious. He was essentially taking down these incredibly corrupt 227 00:13:57.799 --> 00:14:03.320 police precinct captains who ran their police precincts like private fiefdoms, 228 00:14:04.120 --> 00:14:08.360 with in some cases people paying tribute by throwing money 229 00:14:08.360 --> 00:14:10.519 into a barrel at the center of the room, by 230 00:14:10.759 --> 00:14:15.639 just all kinds of gambling and things tolerated on their 231 00:14:15.679 --> 00:14:18.799 premises with police who would look the other way for 232 00:14:19.480 --> 00:14:22.960 a cut. That's what Ness was trying to do initially, 233 00:14:23.320 --> 00:14:25.960 was to clean that up. Now you write about Jackass 234 00:14:26.480 --> 00:14:32.080 Hill and along the Kingsbury Run, tell us who were 235 00:14:32.159 --> 00:14:35.440 the inhabitants of Kingsbury Run and what it was characterized 236 00:14:35.480 --> 00:14:40.720 by Before we talk about the gruesome discovery September twenty third, 237 00:14:41.039 --> 00:14:44.799 nineteen thirty five by two boys. 238 00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:48.080 In the center of a town and sort of snaking 239 00:14:48.159 --> 00:14:53.919 through a wide swath of the city was this gloomy 240 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:57.559 thread of land called Kingsbury Run. It was an ancient 241 00:14:57.960 --> 00:15:02.080 dried up river bed and had originally been a garden spot. 242 00:15:02.120 --> 00:15:04.679 People would go there at a picnic and get away 243 00:15:05.399 --> 00:15:10.600 from the city. But as the city became an industrial center, 244 00:15:10.919 --> 00:15:14.639 sort of industrial powerhouse, there were a lot of industries 245 00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:20.240 and foundries and all kinds of apparatus of industry headquartered 246 00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:23.639 in Kingsbury Run. But during the depression years, as a 247 00:15:23.679 --> 00:15:27.480 lot of those industries fell silent, a number of homeless 248 00:15:27.559 --> 00:15:32.200 encampments and shantytowns sprang up in Kingsbury Run. When the 249 00:15:32.279 --> 00:15:36.360 murders began, the killer appeared to be preying on the 250 00:15:36.399 --> 00:15:45.120 inhabitants of these shantytowns, indigens, travelers, small time criminals, people 251 00:15:45.200 --> 00:15:49.480 who were just passing through the city looking for work, 252 00:15:49.799 --> 00:15:53.720 people who would be hard to identify, people who wouldn't 253 00:15:53.919 --> 00:15:58.120 be missed. And to be honest with you, Kingsbury Run 254 00:15:58.399 --> 00:16:01.080 seems to have been about the creepiest a place you 255 00:16:01.120 --> 00:16:05.000 could possibly imagine. There was a journalist that I became 256 00:16:05.120 --> 00:16:07.039 very fond of while I was doing the research for 257 00:16:07.080 --> 00:16:10.519 this book, and he went down there in the middle 258 00:16:10.519 --> 00:16:12.159 of the night just to have a look, just to 259 00:16:12.159 --> 00:16:16.240 try to soak up the atmosphere. And he wrote, last midnight, 260 00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:20.200 I went down to Kingsbury Run, that lonely, mysterious gully 261 00:16:20.360 --> 00:16:24.559 where Prowl's a mad butcher. Four of his headless victims 262 00:16:24.559 --> 00:16:28.159 have been found here. He has killed two others. I 263 00:16:28.200 --> 00:16:31.679 can testify that if you enjoy feeling your flesh creep, 264 00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:34.639 feeling the small hairs on your neck and your heart 265 00:16:34.720 --> 00:16:38.480 pound with shameless fear. If that's what you like, just 266 00:16:38.559 --> 00:16:42.320 take a midnight tour through Kingsbury Run. It might be 267 00:16:42.320 --> 00:16:46.519 best not to go alone. YEA, well, that's the tone 268 00:16:46.559 --> 00:16:49.039 of the coverage you were getting at the time. 269 00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:53.320 Let's go do September twenty third, nineteen thirty five, and 270 00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:58.159 the two boys discover a victim and then another victim. 271 00:16:58.639 --> 00:17:03.120 The horror is ramped up in this particular cases. So 272 00:17:03.559 --> 00:17:04.519 what did they discover? 273 00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:09.119 It certainly was their Jackass Hill was the name given 274 00:17:09.160 --> 00:17:12.000 to a steep incline that ran from a neighborhood on 275 00:17:12.039 --> 00:17:15.480 the edge of one of an area of Kingsbury Run 276 00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:19.759 and ran sharply down into the gully itself. Two boys 277 00:17:20.039 --> 00:17:23.039 were playing catch on there as they were walking home 278 00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:25.640 from school. The ball went wide. They went down a 279 00:17:25.720 --> 00:17:28.519 hill chasing it, and one of them all but literally 280 00:17:28.599 --> 00:17:34.680 stumbles over a headless body. Now you can imagine that 281 00:17:34.839 --> 00:17:38.240 was a terrible, terrible thing for a boy to see. 282 00:17:38.279 --> 00:17:42.039 They ran, they told an adult what they had seen. 283 00:17:42.039 --> 00:17:46.440 The police were on the scene very quickly. They discovered 284 00:17:46.559 --> 00:17:52.839 this headless body lying there nearby another headless body and 285 00:17:54.119 --> 00:18:00.599 other evidences of the killer's butchery. I should mention that 286 00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:05.200 the coverage at the time strained the propriety of what 287 00:18:05.400 --> 00:18:09.440 was considered proper to speak about in newspapers. So the 288 00:18:09.480 --> 00:18:12.839 papers were very careful tried, at least at first, to 289 00:18:12.920 --> 00:18:17.279 show some measure of restraint in describing what had happened. 290 00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:20.599 So the phrase used by the Cleveland Plaine Dealer, which 291 00:18:20.599 --> 00:18:25.880 was the morning paper at the time, was they had 292 00:18:25.960 --> 00:18:33.119 been dismembered and otherwise mutilated, which was a family friendly, 293 00:18:33.680 --> 00:18:38.319 discreet way of saying that they had been castrated and 294 00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:42.839 their genitalia found sort of in a clump nearby. And 295 00:18:42.880 --> 00:18:47.400 that gives you some idea of the horrifying scenes that 296 00:18:47.559 --> 00:18:51.359 faced the investigators as they set to work on these crimes. 297 00:18:52.079 --> 00:18:55.880 Now, while this is going on, the mayor wants a 298 00:18:55.920 --> 00:18:59.559 safety director. He has his ideal candidate, but then that 299 00:18:59.599 --> 00:19:03.599 person can't make it. He asked elliot Ness, and so 300 00:19:04.039 --> 00:19:08.720 tell us about this announcement and how famous elliot Ness 301 00:19:08.839 --> 00:19:12.720 is at this time while this butcher is just beginning 302 00:19:13.079 --> 00:19:14.319 his savagery. 303 00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:18.480 Yeah, Well, as you would imagine, the elliot Nests from 304 00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:22.640 television would have strapped on his holster and started kicking 305 00:19:22.680 --> 00:19:25.480 down doors. But the real elliot Ness was in a 306 00:19:25.480 --> 00:19:30.720 different position. It's important to point out that he wasn't 307 00:19:30.759 --> 00:19:34.920 brought to Cleveland. He wasn't hired to catch the butcher 308 00:19:35.000 --> 00:19:38.440 of Kingsbury Run or any killer. That wasn't his job. 309 00:19:38.799 --> 00:19:42.039 It wasn't a homicide detective anymore than he was a 310 00:19:42.039 --> 00:19:44.839 fireman or a crossing guard. He's the director of public safety. 311 00:19:45.039 --> 00:19:48.000 The chief of police reports to elliot Ness. He's at 312 00:19:48.039 --> 00:19:52.039 the top of the pyramid. Nobody expected him to solve 313 00:19:52.119 --> 00:19:55.240 murders or any more than they expected him to walk 314 00:19:55.279 --> 00:19:57.680 a beat or rescue a cat stuck in a tree. 315 00:19:57.799 --> 00:20:02.039 But this is elliot Ness talking about People did expect 316 00:20:02.119 --> 00:20:06.119 action from eliot Ness. They expected heroics. Ness himself had 317 00:20:06.119 --> 00:20:08.680 made a point of saying he would lead from the 318 00:20:08.720 --> 00:20:11.599 front lines, and over time, as the pattern of these 319 00:20:11.640 --> 00:20:14.200 crimes gathered, of course, he had to do something. One 320 00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:17.160 of his police detectives said he had to do something. 321 00:20:17.200 --> 00:20:19.519 The mayor was on his neck. It was getting to 322 00:20:19.559 --> 00:20:23.359 be something of a national disgrace. So he put together 323 00:20:23.400 --> 00:20:26.279 a team in the mold of the Untouchables, much like 324 00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:29.160 the Unknowns. There were some overlap between the two. It 325 00:20:29.200 --> 00:20:32.680 seems they worked outside the system under the radar, and 326 00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:35.720 they tried to get information off of the criminal grapevine. 327 00:20:36.039 --> 00:20:39.039 But that's not to say that Ness ignored the official effort. 328 00:20:39.279 --> 00:20:43.440 He devoted extra resources and manpower to the detective bureau. 329 00:20:43.559 --> 00:20:46.599 He tried to give them every chance. And believe me, 330 00:20:46.680 --> 00:20:50.480 the effort that the homicide that the detective Bureau, that the 331 00:20:50.440 --> 00:20:54.640 police department put forward was heroic, massive. They left no 332 00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:59.039 stone unturned. But this smaller hands on effort was very 333 00:20:59.079 --> 00:21:02.200 typical of Ness. He didn't say a lot about this. 334 00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:05.480 He said very little publicly, but there was one notable statement. 335 00:21:05.759 --> 00:21:07.720 He said, I want to do all I can to 336 00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:13.200 aid this investigation. I want to see this psycho caught. 337 00:21:13.839 --> 00:21:18.039 There were some interesting things found as well. In December 338 00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:22.880 at the White Front meat Market there was some packages 339 00:21:22.920 --> 00:21:27.759 and parcels found and interestingly wrapped in newspaper. Again, tell 340 00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:31.079 us a little bit about these discoveries and the media reaction, 341 00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:35.720 public reaction and Elliott Ness and the police reaction. 342 00:21:36.160 --> 00:21:40.160 Well as if it hadn't been gruesome and horrifying enough already. 343 00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:42.839 It's a man and a butcher running a butcher shop 344 00:21:42.920 --> 00:21:45.720 the White Front beat market. A woman comes in, there's 345 00:21:45.759 --> 00:21:48.599 a dog barking behind the store. There's something going on 346 00:21:48.680 --> 00:21:53.960 behind his shop. He goes out back and in two 347 00:21:54.359 --> 00:21:59.319 straw baskets in the back, neatly wrapped up in bundles 348 00:21:59.319 --> 00:22:06.559 of newspapers, there are several dismembered sections of a woman, 349 00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:13.480 and this man starts unwrapping these parcels, realizes what it is, 350 00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:18.279 very quickly realizes he's seen enough, runs back calls the police. 351 00:22:18.920 --> 00:22:22.319 So the police are now confronted with a killer who 352 00:22:22.519 --> 00:22:25.680 appears to be gift wrapping body parts and leaving them 353 00:22:25.839 --> 00:22:29.920 to be discovered. And once again the scale of the 354 00:22:29.960 --> 00:22:35.359 thing begins to gather force, the tone of it is 355 00:22:35.480 --> 00:22:39.799 gathering heat. But even now at this stage, they were 356 00:22:39.839 --> 00:22:44.319 slow to connect that there was a series of crimes underway, 357 00:22:44.440 --> 00:22:46.960 and there was some discussion of it at the time. 358 00:22:47.359 --> 00:22:50.319 But in this case, as in the case of one 359 00:22:50.359 --> 00:22:52.759 of the two bodies found at Jackass Hill, they were 360 00:22:53.000 --> 00:22:56.640 able to identify the remains. The ones at the White 361 00:22:56.640 --> 00:22:59.880 Front meat Market were a prostitute by the name of 362 00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:06.920 Florence Bloo, and the police quite naturally investigated trying to 363 00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:11.319 find trying to uncover things about her background, her story 364 00:23:11.799 --> 00:23:16.279 that might have led to this horror, horrifying end but 365 00:23:16.400 --> 00:23:19.759 even at that stage, the notion of it being a 366 00:23:19.799 --> 00:23:24.680 series of connected crimes had been slow to take shape. 367 00:23:24.799 --> 00:23:27.680 Now at the same time, again, you said that Elliott 368 00:23:27.720 --> 00:23:31.480 Ness is brought in to fix the police department, not 369 00:23:31.839 --> 00:23:35.440 this Kingsbury run that just came at around the same time. 370 00:23:36.160 --> 00:23:39.880 But what he is also employed to do is that 371 00:23:40.359 --> 00:23:44.240 he meets a Frank Cullaton, a prosecutor, and they team 372 00:23:44.359 --> 00:23:46.920 up to be able to do the things that need 373 00:23:46.960 --> 00:23:49.799 to get done as a prosecutor and somebody else that's 374 00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:53.720 routing out eruption in the police force. And this also 375 00:23:53.839 --> 00:23:57.519 lands them in a situation where there is this dramatic 376 00:23:58.519 --> 00:24:04.119 showdown between gangsters and the police department, and then Elliott 377 00:24:04.160 --> 00:24:07.960 Ness to rescue. This is a story unto itself, but 378 00:24:08.039 --> 00:24:12.200 can you briefly tell us what happens in this dramatic story? 379 00:24:12.440 --> 00:24:15.079 Sure thing. One of the things that concerned Nests very 380 00:24:15.079 --> 00:24:18.720 greatly was what he called the sinister offshoots of prohibition. 381 00:24:19.160 --> 00:24:23.119 That the outlawing of alcohol had originally placed power in 382 00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:27.279 the hands of the underworld. As they were supplying alcohol, 383 00:24:27.799 --> 00:24:33.480 they also had money, resources and power to strengthen their 384 00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:38.720 position in gambling and prostitution and other forms of crime. 385 00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:44.160 Cleveland had a very very serious problem with gambling. One 386 00:24:44.640 --> 00:24:48.759 commentator said that before there was a Las Vegas, there 387 00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:51.240 was Cleveland. There were people coming from out of towns 388 00:24:51.480 --> 00:24:55.119 to drop a bundle at the gaming tables in these 389 00:24:55.359 --> 00:24:58.440 gambling clubs that were set up to take their money. 390 00:24:58.799 --> 00:25:00.559 One of these places was a place he's called the 391 00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:04.839 Harvard Club. And the county prosecutor at that time was 392 00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:07.799 a man named Frank Cullett, and he decided that he 393 00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:10.880 was going to mount a raid on the Harvard Club 394 00:25:11.079 --> 00:25:14.519 and another club on the same evening. And because he 395 00:25:14.599 --> 00:25:17.599 knew that if any word of his intentions got out 396 00:25:17.640 --> 00:25:20.440 to the police force, the clubs would be shut down 397 00:25:20.839 --> 00:25:24.119 when he got there and the equipment would be emptied out. 398 00:25:24.400 --> 00:25:28.480 So he went out with a force of private detectives 399 00:25:28.680 --> 00:25:31.599 so that the word wouldn't get out, and he shut 400 00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:34.440 down one of the clubs, and then they converged on 401 00:25:34.480 --> 00:25:38.920