WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.760 --> 00:00:03.399 You're listening to an airwave media. 2 00:00:03.080 --> 00:00:09.199 Podcast reborn every six hundred years. In Man's reckoning of time, 3 00:00:09.720 --> 00:00:13.240 the gargoyles joined battle against Man to gain dominion over 4 00:00:13.279 --> 00:00:17.679 the earth. In each coming, the gargoyles were nearly destroyed 5 00:00:17.719 --> 00:00:20.920 by men, who flourished in greater numbers. Now it has 6 00:00:20.960 --> 00:00:23.359 been so many hundreds of years that it seems the 7 00:00:23.399 --> 00:00:26.760 ancient statues and paintings of gargoyles are just products of 8 00:00:26.800 --> 00:00:31.399 man's imagination. In this year, with man's thoughts turned toward 9 00:00:31.480 --> 00:00:34.439 the many ills he has brought upon himself, Man has 10 00:00:34.520 --> 00:00:38.520 forgotten his most ancient adversary, the Gargoyles. 11 00:00:44.799 --> 00:00:47.479 It's actually quite unlike anything we've ever seen before. 12 00:00:49.640 --> 00:00:51.159 A giant, hairy creature. 13 00:00:51.399 --> 00:00:56.399 Part eight part mats in Larkness, a twenty four mile long, 14 00:00:56.479 --> 00:00:58.479 bottomless lake in the Highlands of Scotland. 15 00:00:58.799 --> 00:01:23.959 It's a creature known as the lockdeest monster Mobstert. 16 00:01:25.760 --> 00:01:28.680 That opening was a tiny excerpt from the nineteen seventy 17 00:01:28.680 --> 00:01:32.959 two made for TV film Gargoyles. It's not a great movie, 18 00:01:33.200 --> 00:01:35.400 though lots of people have had fun watching it. I 19 00:01:35.439 --> 00:01:38.280 suppose it's mostly notable for its special effects work by 20 00:01:38.319 --> 00:01:41.560 a young artist named Stan Winston at the time I'm 21 00:01:41.599 --> 00:01:43.879 recording this. You can check that film out on YouTube, 22 00:01:44.120 --> 00:01:45.359 and I put a link to it in our show 23 00:01:45.359 --> 00:01:48.719 notes at monster talk dot org. This week we're taking 24 00:01:48.719 --> 00:01:52.079 a look at gargoyles. Now, this is tricky since primarily 25 00:01:52.120 --> 00:01:56.799 gargoyles are strictly speaking, a physical work of architecture. We'll 26 00:01:56.840 --> 00:01:59.760 talk about that during the interview. I've wanted to cover 27 00:01:59.840 --> 00:02:02.280 this fabulous monster, but I didn't know quite how to 28 00:02:02.359 --> 00:02:05.280 tackle it, what angle to take. It's shown up in 29 00:02:05.319 --> 00:02:08.719 films like Disney's animated adaptation of The Hunchback of Notre Dame, 30 00:02:09.159 --> 00:02:14.199 the aforementioned Gargoyles, and the regrettable twenty fourteen film I Frankenstein, 31 00:02:14.280 --> 00:02:17.680 which currently sports an overly generous four percent approval rating 32 00:02:17.719 --> 00:02:21.360 on Rotten Tomatoes. One of my hesitancies in covering this monster, 33 00:02:21.560 --> 00:02:25.919 despite its widespread public recognition, was the lack of consistency 34 00:02:25.919 --> 00:02:29.319 in the folklore and history. There's stories which say the 35 00:02:29.319 --> 00:02:31.639 creatures were named after the sound of the gargoyles the 36 00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:34.560 water that passed through its mouth, their story saying it 37 00:02:34.599 --> 00:02:37.360 was named after a monstrous dragon like creature, and there's 38 00:02:37.400 --> 00:02:40.639 a mishmash of legends about whether gargoyles are supposed to 39 00:02:40.680 --> 00:02:43.759 be figures of good or figures of evil. But despite 40 00:02:43.759 --> 00:02:46.479 the inconsistencies and the lore, one thing I think we 41 00:02:46.520 --> 00:02:49.759 can agree on is that gargoyles are art. They're a 42 00:02:49.800 --> 00:02:53.039 feature of Gothic architecture hundreds of years old, and they 43 00:02:53.120 --> 00:02:57.719 served both a serious structural purpose and a glorious artistic one. 44 00:02:57.759 --> 00:03:00.919 Thanks to our Facebook keeper James Niland recommending our guest 45 00:03:01.000 --> 00:03:03.719 this week, it's time to crank up our Cradle of 46 00:03:03.759 --> 00:03:09.639 philth albums and get our Gothic on with some gargoyle mornstutle. 47 00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:13.919 So. Matthew Duman is a photographer and graphic designer who 48 00:03:13.960 --> 00:03:17.479 grew up in Bethany, Connecticut. He attended the Gargoyle Free 49 00:03:17.520 --> 00:03:21.159 Campus of Central Connecticut State University, but while studying abroad, 50 00:03:21.240 --> 00:03:24.479 developed a fascination with the grotesque sculptures of the cathedrals 51 00:03:24.479 --> 00:03:28.199 of Britain. In addition to England, Matt has made photographic 52 00:03:28.240 --> 00:03:32.800 trips to Italy, Africa, Australia, and New Zealand. Matt currently 53 00:03:32.800 --> 00:03:36.240 works in new Haven, Connecticut. He began exploring the variety 54 00:03:36.240 --> 00:03:39.520 of sculptures found on the buildings of Yale University and 55 00:03:39.560 --> 00:03:43.240 as a personal and as a personal project, has researched 56 00:03:43.240 --> 00:03:46.719 and documented these New World grotesques, which are closer but 57 00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:51.199 no less bewitching than their European counterparts. Welcome to the show, Matt, 58 00:03:51.199 --> 00:03:52.479 thank you very much for joining us. 59 00:03:52.560 --> 00:03:54.120 Yeah, thanks, thank you. 60 00:03:55.000 --> 00:03:57.719 So just to begin with, what is a gargoyle? I mean, 61 00:03:57.800 --> 00:03:59.360 I think most of us have seen them, but if 62 00:03:59.400 --> 00:04:00.840 you can tell us a lot a little bit about them, 63 00:04:01.120 --> 00:04:02.719 I think a lot of people think that they might 64 00:04:02.800 --> 00:04:06.080 have a spiritual or a superstitious purpose, or is it 65 00:04:06.240 --> 00:04:08.599 practical you can tell us a little bit about gargoyles. 66 00:04:09.000 --> 00:04:13.719 Well, it's a little of both. Actually these days, in 67 00:04:13.879 --> 00:04:18.639 modern times, the definitions have gotten a little muddled. There 68 00:04:18.800 --> 00:04:25.279 is gargoyles and there are grotesques. Now, grotesque is the general, 69 00:04:25.560 --> 00:04:31.600 the general architectural term for any kind of sculpture on 70 00:04:31.839 --> 00:04:35.279 or in a building, and it's usually a person, animal, 71 00:04:35.759 --> 00:04:39.759 or fanciful creature. Now, a gargoyle is a specific type 72 00:04:39.800 --> 00:04:46.759 of grotesque. Specifically, it's the ones that channel water, so basically, 73 00:04:48.199 --> 00:04:51.079 and that's where the that's where the word comes from. 74 00:04:51.199 --> 00:04:55.600 It comes from the old French word gigwe, which is 75 00:04:55.600 --> 00:04:58.879 spelled g A R G U I L L E. 76 00:04:59.560 --> 00:05:03.439 Which refers to the throat. Now that's related to the 77 00:05:03.639 --> 00:05:08.160 modern word to gargoyle because it refers to water going 78 00:05:08.199 --> 00:05:12.920 down your throat, which is what gargoyles, which is what 79 00:05:13.079 --> 00:05:17.199 gargoyles function as. So basically, a gargoyle is a specific 80 00:05:17.279 --> 00:05:20.360 type of grotesque and it's a basically a decorative range 81 00:05:20.360 --> 00:05:21.639 about very decorative. 82 00:05:22.319 --> 00:05:24.279 Can you tell us a little bit about the styles 83 00:05:24.720 --> 00:05:27.560 in the forms of these these So let me just 84 00:05:27.600 --> 00:05:30.560 say before we get into that. I've been wanting to 85 00:05:30.600 --> 00:05:35.480 talk about gargoyles because culturally, you know, they fit in 86 00:05:35.839 --> 00:05:38.879 as a monster in modern times, and all these sort 87 00:05:38.879 --> 00:05:44.000 of fictional narratives like the Gargoyles cartoon they were in. 88 00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:46.720 There was a Frankenstein movie that came out that was 89 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:49.879 kind of horrible that had gargoyles is one of the 90 00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:53.160 kind of creatures as sort of protections. And then there 91 00:05:53.240 --> 00:05:56.800 was a Stan Winston movie back in the early seventies 92 00:05:56.800 --> 00:06:00.920 for TV. But historically they there's not like a huge 93 00:06:00.920 --> 00:06:03.480 amount of lore that I could find about gargoyles coming 94 00:06:03.519 --> 00:06:06.160 to life, or where do they arise from or anything 95 00:06:06.199 --> 00:06:09.199 like that. But did you when you were looking in 96 00:06:09.240 --> 00:06:11.879 the research, did you find anything about the people believing 97 00:06:11.920 --> 00:06:14.600 that they came to life or were real, or in 98 00:06:14.639 --> 00:06:18.720 any way representing anything except artistics or representations of monsters. 99 00:06:19.600 --> 00:06:23.600 I haven't found anything with people actually believing they were 100 00:06:23.680 --> 00:06:27.199 real or came to life. They're really more symbolic. 101 00:06:27.519 --> 00:06:28.879 So maybe we could talk about that. 102 00:06:28.920 --> 00:06:31.199 In the they come in a lot of different styles 103 00:06:31.240 --> 00:06:33.240 and in your book, by the way, your book has 104 00:06:33.399 --> 00:06:37.399 just a ton of beautiful photography for people who can't 105 00:06:37.439 --> 00:06:41.959 make it to yell to look themselves. You've captured really 106 00:06:42.040 --> 00:06:47.399 great photographs of all these different gargoyles and grotesques throughout the. 107 00:06:48.959 --> 00:06:50.079 Yeah, it'd be a great time. 108 00:06:50.160 --> 00:06:53.079 Would you want to go out by a coffee table? Yes, 109 00:06:56.639 --> 00:06:58.040 I got coffee? 110 00:07:00.480 --> 00:07:00.800 Yes? 111 00:07:02.160 --> 00:07:02.720 Oh sorry. 112 00:07:02.720 --> 00:07:05.399 So the question was, so can you talk about some 113 00:07:05.480 --> 00:07:07.759 of the styles and forms that these gargirls come in. 114 00:07:08.120 --> 00:07:14.959 Yeah, well, there's the basic, basic style that everybody's familiar 115 00:07:15.040 --> 00:07:18.519 with which the name conjures up the like the demonic, 116 00:07:20.959 --> 00:07:26.680 frightening imagery, and that's that's a hangover from the medieval 117 00:07:26.720 --> 00:07:32.560 times where gargoyls were used on like churches and cathedrals, 118 00:07:33.120 --> 00:07:35.160 and there were it was. They were there for a 119 00:07:35.160 --> 00:07:39.120 few different reasons. One of them was like the the 120 00:07:39.240 --> 00:07:42.639 gargoyls and grotesques were on the outside, but the but 121 00:07:42.759 --> 00:07:47.639 the religious imagery was kept on the inside. So it 122 00:07:47.720 --> 00:07:51.879 was basically saying that evil was kept outside of the church. 123 00:07:53.439 --> 00:07:57.639 And also also also some people said it was just 124 00:07:57.680 --> 00:08:00.040 to scare away evil spirits so they don't come in 125 00:08:00.079 --> 00:08:04.240 to the church. Also they were used in maybe a 126 00:08:04.279 --> 00:08:07.720 little more practical sense you have. As I said, they 127 00:08:07.759 --> 00:08:14.199 had religious imagery and then they had the ugly gargoyles. Well, 128 00:08:14.399 --> 00:08:20.759 the gargirl girls were used too to accentuate enhance the 129 00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:24.600 beauty of the religious imagery imagery by by comparison. 130 00:08:26.160 --> 00:08:27.920 So I have kind of a follow up if you 131 00:08:27.920 --> 00:08:31.199 don't mind the what I I've read a lot of 132 00:08:31.439 --> 00:08:34.399 the ghost stories of m R James, and a lot 133 00:08:34.440 --> 00:08:38.600 of his work talks about it's fictional, but it talks 134 00:08:38.639 --> 00:08:43.960 about the sort of art that is inside churches in England, 135 00:08:44.039 --> 00:08:45.200 and like the art that. 136 00:08:45.240 --> 00:08:49.120 Sits on the end of church pews. 137 00:08:48.399 --> 00:08:50.559 And the art that's like sort of tucked away in 138 00:08:50.639 --> 00:08:55.159 various places. Did you get a sense of why there 139 00:08:55.279 --> 00:08:58.399 is so much grotesque art within the church. I mean, 140 00:08:58.480 --> 00:09:01.440 it's it seems to be a counterpoints as a sort 141 00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:07.759 of beauty and majesty, of sort of heavenly ideas that 142 00:09:07.799 --> 00:09:09.840 the church talks about in some ways. 143 00:09:10.279 --> 00:09:13.639 Well, that brings me to my to my next style. 144 00:09:14.039 --> 00:09:18.000 I was going to say, the the more allegorical grotesque. 145 00:09:18.519 --> 00:09:22.320 Now back in mid back in the Middle Ages, most 146 00:09:22.720 --> 00:09:26.840 of the common person that the peasants, they were pretty 147 00:09:26.879 --> 00:09:31.720 much illiterate, so the church had to depend on visual 148 00:09:31.799 --> 00:09:36.919 imagery two make us to get us point across. So 149 00:09:37.919 --> 00:09:44.399 grotesques and gargoyls were used to show concepts of morality 150 00:09:45.039 --> 00:09:51.200 and religion because basically they couldn't depend on the peasants, 151 00:09:51.519 --> 00:09:55.279 all the peasants being able to read those concepts in 152 00:09:55.279 --> 00:09:59.200 in books like the Bible, which I think is kind 153 00:09:59.240 --> 00:10:02.240 of funny that Yale adopted that sort of thing, because 154 00:10:02.240 --> 00:10:04.919 I think most post Yale students are pretty literate. 155 00:10:06.200 --> 00:10:11.120 Were all of the gargoyles creatures or monsters of some kind, 156 00:10:11.759 --> 00:10:15.759 or were any fashioned after people or famous people in particular? 157 00:10:17.120 --> 00:10:20.840 There's a whole variety of garagars. The demonic imagery is 158 00:10:20.960 --> 00:10:26.720 just one category there were. As I said, they could 159 00:10:26.759 --> 00:10:32.679 demonstrate morality with different figures, or they could be maybe 160 00:10:32.720 --> 00:10:39.919 a statement about the city that the cathedral is located 161 00:10:39.960 --> 00:10:43.360 in or in modern times, which we're talking about like 162 00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:49.279 Yale University, the school itself, they would be at Yale, 163 00:10:49.360 --> 00:10:53.360 there's a lot of depictions of Yale's mascot, Handsome Dan 164 00:10:53.399 --> 00:10:57.440 the Bulldog, and then there's also a lot of depictions 165 00:10:57.440 --> 00:11:02.879 of pictions of historical events in Yale's home city of 166 00:11:02.919 --> 00:11:03.960 New Haven, Connecticut. 167 00:11:04.879 --> 00:11:09.320 So why are there so many gargoyles at yell Well. 168 00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:14.679 Yale is one of the schools that revived the Gothic 169 00:11:14.840 --> 00:11:21.159 architecture style, and this new this revival of Gothic architecture 170 00:11:21.559 --> 00:11:26.360 on college campuses is called collegiate Gothic. Now, this was 171 00:11:26.440 --> 00:11:32.600 revived during in the nineteenth century, and it was and 172 00:11:32.639 --> 00:11:38.480 it had its roots in trying to raise the school's 173 00:11:38.480 --> 00:11:44.679 stature in society and ultimately to get more money and endowments. Basically, 174 00:11:45.519 --> 00:11:50.039 they would make they would build buildings that associated their 175 00:11:50.200 --> 00:11:54.679 or their institution with the medieval universities of Europe like 176 00:11:54.759 --> 00:11:59.440 Oxford or Cambridge, and then they would make them look 177 00:11:59.559 --> 00:12:05.279 old to enhance their dignity and venerability and to make 178 00:12:05.320 --> 00:12:09.159 them look timeless. So basically they looked they looked old. 179 00:12:09.360 --> 00:12:12.279 People couldn't really say how old, but they look like 180 00:12:12.360 --> 00:12:15.000 they've been there a long time, and they look like 181 00:12:15.080 --> 00:12:18.600 they will stand for a long time. And that carried 182 00:12:18.639 --> 00:12:23.120 over to their attitudes towards the school itself. The school 183 00:12:23.200 --> 00:12:26.279 has been there and it will be there, and its 184 00:12:26.440 --> 00:12:29.879 ideals had been there and will be there a long time. 185 00:12:30.519 --> 00:12:32.480 So how did you get interested in gog oyles and 186 00:12:32.639 --> 00:12:34.759 how did you come to write a book about god oyles? 187 00:12:35.559 --> 00:12:38.559 Well, it's one of those things. It's like a hobby 188 00:12:38.639 --> 00:12:43.720 that just snowballed. I grew up bethany Where I grew 189 00:12:43.799 --> 00:12:46.159 up is a little town right north of new Haven, 190 00:12:46.440 --> 00:12:48.879 so I was always going into new Haven. I always 191 00:12:49.039 --> 00:12:51.879 knew Yale had some great buildings. I never thought too 192 00:12:51.960 --> 00:12:54.639 much about them, but I always assumed they were hundreds 193 00:12:54.679 --> 00:12:58.600 of years old. And when I started working in new Haven, 194 00:12:58.840 --> 00:13:01.679 I was looking for a personal project to get into. 195 00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:04.000 So I knew Yale had some nice buildings. So I 196 00:13:04.039 --> 00:13:09.159 started photographing around Yale, and I knew. I always heard 197 00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:13.960 Yale had sculptures on their buildings, but I assumed that 198 00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:17.919 it was that they were very stuffy and historical, and 199 00:13:17.960 --> 00:13:22.080 that's that's nice. But honestly, I wouldn't I wouldn't write 200 00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:26.159 a book about just that. It was when I started 201 00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:31.639 seeing grotesque and gargirls that were very very funny and 202 00:13:31.919 --> 00:13:36.240 just playing bizarre that really that it's that humor factor 203 00:13:36.240 --> 00:13:41.480 that really drew me in. And I started taking pictures 204 00:13:41.879 --> 00:13:45.480 and my hard drive started filling up. And at the 205 00:13:45.519 --> 00:13:49.480 time at the time, I was doing some freelance work 206 00:13:49.559 --> 00:13:52.679 for a for a Yale professor and we got to 207 00:13:52.720 --> 00:13:55.879 be good friends, and I would always complain to him 208 00:13:55.879 --> 00:13:57.279 that I have all these images. I don't know what 209 00:13:57.360 --> 00:13:59.759 to do. And so he said, well, why don't you 210 00:13:59.799 --> 00:14:01.759 do a book? And now he probably said it just 211 00:14:01.759 --> 00:14:03.639 to shut me up because I was complaining about it. 212 00:14:03.639 --> 00:14:08.480 But but and I said, well, I can design it, 213 00:14:08.519 --> 00:14:10.960 and I can have the photos. I guess I can 214 00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:12.759 do it. And it was a good At the time, 215 00:14:12.840 --> 00:14:14.919 it seemed like a good challenge. I never I never 216 00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:18.799 had done anything like that before. So I just started 217 00:14:18.799 --> 00:14:22.080 putting to the other book and it was it was 218 00:14:22.120 --> 00:14:25.480 a challenge, but it was a lot of It's been 219 00:14:25.480 --> 00:14:26.320 a lot of fun too. 220 00:14:26.919 --> 00:14:27.840 Yeah. 221 00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:31.000 I love the fan that you went black and white 222 00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:34.320 because it's sort of ads to the gothic feeling. 223 00:14:34.399 --> 00:14:37.120 Well, that's that's another point I wanted to make When 224 00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:40.559 I first when I first started taking pictures, I took 225 00:14:40.600 --> 00:14:44.360 them in color and I still take them in color originally, 226 00:14:45.039 --> 00:14:47.159 but when I was but they didn't really have the 227 00:14:48.279 --> 00:14:52.480 punch the effectiveness. It's only when I started playing around 228 00:14:52.519 --> 00:14:54.919 with them. One time I put them in black and 229 00:14:54.919 --> 00:14:58.159 white and I realized you could it brought out the 230 00:14:58.240 --> 00:15:00.879 character of the grotesque a lot more. I realized that 231 00:15:01.480 --> 00:15:05.240 since most of these grotesques and gargoys are not painted, 232 00:15:06.480 --> 00:15:09.960 their features are are dependent on, you know, the light 233 00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:13.919 and dark areas, and the only colors that really would 234 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:17.279 show up in the photo are maybe the sky or 235 00:15:17.519 --> 00:15:21.440 leaves of trees, things that are not the grotesques. So 236 00:15:21.519 --> 00:15:26.440 basically the color was only a distraction. So I so 237 00:15:26.480 --> 00:15:29.320 I would convert them to black and white, and the 238 00:15:29.480 --> 00:15:33.000 true character of the grotesques really pops and shiny. 239 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:39.600 I think it's very effective. Yeah, So can you talk 240 00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:41.919 a little bit about how these are made? I mean, 241 00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:47.159 are they sculpted or are they poured into molds? How 242 00:15:47.200 --> 00:15:48.440 are these actually crafted? 243 00:15:48.679 --> 00:15:52.000 Well, many most of the grow tests at Yale, I 244 00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:57.840 would say, are are are cast from molds. But Yale 245 00:15:57.919 --> 00:16:03.360 does have examples of many different kinds of methods that 246 00:16:03.519 --> 00:16:06.559 they were made. They also have ones that were sculpted 247 00:16:06.600 --> 00:16:09.759 from a solid piece of stone, and you can tell 248 00:16:09.759 --> 00:16:13.559 those by you can actually see like the veins running 249 00:16:13.559 --> 00:16:16.720 through the stone, so you could so you could tell 250 00:16:16.759 --> 00:16:20.360 that was one solid piece that they sculpted from. There's 251 00:16:20.440 --> 00:16:24.840 also others that were carved into into wood, and then 252 00:16:24.919 --> 00:16:30.000 others that were cast cast bronze or so some other metal. 253 00:16:30.639 --> 00:16:34.679 So so there's a there's a variety of methods that 254 00:16:34.679 --> 00:16:37.840 that that that you can use to actually make a gargoyle, 255 00:16:37.879 --> 00:16:40.639 but most of them at Yale are I think, are 256 00:16:40.799 --> 00:16:43.559 cast cast concrete. 257 00:16:43.639 --> 00:16:47.559 And were gargoyles usually designed along with the building or 258 00:16:47.600 --> 00:16:50.320 were they something they were added off to the fact. 259 00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:54.799 At Yale, I would say in most cases they were 260 00:16:55.279 --> 00:17:01.240 designed with the building, and depending on the the building itself, 261 00:17:01.240 --> 00:17:04.480 the importance of the building. Sometimes they even had like 262 00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:09.480 the main library called Stirling Memorial Library Yale, that's actually 263 00:17:09.880 --> 00:17:12.319 it's built to look like a Gothic cathedral. It even 264 00:17:12.359 --> 00:17:14.720 has a confessional it's actually a phone booth, but it 265 00:17:14.759 --> 00:17:19.160 looks like a conventional for those They actually had a 266 00:17:19.200 --> 00:17:25.720 committee with the architect and dignitaries from the from Yale 267 00:17:26.319 --> 00:17:31.680 and some of the masons and compies of many people 268 00:17:31.720 --> 00:17:36.440 involved in the construction that they would choose iconography to 269 00:17:36.519 --> 00:17:41.480 put on the building. And now other buildings maybe that 270 00:17:41.519 --> 00:17:45.440 were a little less important. Maybe it was up to 271 00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:54.200 the masons themselves or or just the architect. But but 272 00:17:55.359 --> 00:17:58.680 at Yale, on the whole, they were put up when 273 00:17:58.720 --> 00:18:01.440 the building was put up. I've been to other schools 274 00:18:02.079 --> 00:18:06.480 where that wasn't the case. They would actually leave blocks 275 00:18:07.359 --> 00:18:11.200 on the buildings, and then later, maybe fifty sixty years later, 276 00:18:11.640 --> 00:18:13.119 they would come and carve something. 277 00:18:13.880 --> 00:18:16.039 So while you were putting the book together, did you 278 00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:20.519 ever happened to visit during a rainstorm so you could 279 00:18:20.519 --> 00:18:23.799 actually hear the gargoyles at work. 280 00:18:25.559 --> 00:18:30.039 I never really visited during the rain. I did visit 281 00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:34.799 many times during the winter where you could see the 282 00:18:36.200 --> 00:18:39.480 where gargoyles. You could tell gargoyles from regular grotesque because 283 00:18:39.480 --> 00:18:42.519 they have these these long icicle goates hanging out of 284 00:18:42.559 --> 00:18:47.079 their mouths, and and those made for some good pictures 285 00:18:47.119 --> 00:18:48.359 as well. 286 00:18:48.359 --> 00:18:50.200 It's curious as to what they sounded like when the 287 00:18:50.240 --> 00:18:53.119 water was getting out of them. 288 00:18:53.319 --> 00:18:56.920 Well, I was wondering, Yeah, I was wondering. Well, yeah, 289 00:18:57.200 --> 00:18:59.640 I like garbays. 290 00:19:02.039 --> 00:19:06.880 Yeah, I was yeah, yeah, Jim, I mean everybody sees 291 00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:09.720 them all the time. I rarely ever see them actually 292 00:19:09.720 --> 00:19:12.279 spouting water in any of the photographs or you know 293 00:19:12.359 --> 00:19:12.960 things I see. 294 00:19:13.519 --> 00:19:15.680 Yeah, that's a good point. 295 00:19:16.839 --> 00:19:21.319 Yeah, it's true, because see I tried to the reason 296 00:19:21.319 --> 00:19:23.200 why I was down in the wintertime a lot of 297 00:19:23.240 --> 00:19:27.119 times was, well, there's a lot of trees. Even though 298 00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:29.000 Yale's in the city, there's a lot of trees around 299 00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:32.599 the campus. And I found out the hard way. I 300 00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:35.400 started photographing in the summertime. By the end of the summer, 301 00:19:36.119 --> 00:19:38.400 I figured I got most of the I think I 302 00:19:38.440 --> 00:19:41.480 got pretty much everything or that's that's around Yale, And 303 00:19:41.480 --> 00:19:43.799 then the leaves came off the trees, revealing a whole 304 00:19:43.799 --> 00:19:47.920 lot more I never saw before. So then I realized 305 00:19:47.920 --> 00:19:50.119 that was pretty naive to make a statement like that. 306 00:19:50.319 --> 00:19:53.440 So so now I never say that I've seen everything, 307 00:19:54.160 --> 00:19:56.519 because it seems like there's always something more to see. 308 00:19:57.160 --> 00:19:59.400 And whenever I try, I tried to fot I go 309 00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:02.720 to photograph something, I always try to go maybe in 310 00:20:02.720 --> 00:20:06.000 the winter or early spring, before the leaves come on 311 00:20:06.039 --> 00:20:09.519 the trees, so because a lot of them can be 312 00:20:09.559 --> 00:20:10.000 covered with. 313 00:20:10.359 --> 00:20:15.519 Naive You remind me of Karen had talked about evesdroppers, 314 00:20:15.759 --> 00:20:18.440 which I guess is not really directly naive, but naives 315 00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:22.880 droppers a funny portmanteau. Anyway, do you know anything about evesdroppers, 316 00:20:22.960 --> 00:20:25.720 these sort of carved figures built into the eves and 317 00:20:25.799 --> 00:20:27.160 the English architecture. 318 00:20:28.160 --> 00:20:32.200 Yes, I've read about them. That was I think Henry 319 00:20:32.279 --> 00:20:36.359 the eighth did put those installed those when he was 320 00:20:37.319 --> 00:20:39.240 I think it was that Hampton Court he who was 321 00:20:39.759 --> 00:20:43.799 renovating Hampton Court for his purposes. And yeah, they were 322 00:20:43.880 --> 00:20:47.839 usually put high up, high up near the ceiling. And 323 00:20:48.319 --> 00:20:51.640 those are an actual form of gargoy and I think 324 00:20:51.759 --> 00:20:54.640 I mean a form of grotesque, I should say. And 325 00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:59.200 I think they were there, as the name suggests, as 326 00:20:59.599 --> 00:21:05.640 Eve's was to to remind the anyone, either the court 327 00:21:05.839 --> 00:21:09.400 or the staff of the of the palace that well, 328 00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:12.119 the king is always there and he's always listening, so 329 00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:16.519 don't don't say anything negative about the king, because it'll 330 00:21:16.519 --> 00:21:21.119 always get back to them. And I always think that 331 00:21:21.319 --> 00:21:25.319 those are a those are a form of grotesque. Now, 332 00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:29.599 they're a little different from your normal grotesque because well, 333 00:21:29.640 --> 00:21:35.680 first of all, they're they're mostly they're painted and most 334 00:21:35.680 --> 00:21:38.599 of the at least the ones I've seen. The details 335 00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:42.759 are painted on them, the eyes, the the eyebrows, things 336 00:21:42.799 --> 00:21:47.440 like that, And I think the painting is intentional because 337 00:21:48.200 --> 00:21:51.839 the people on the ground level can see them a 338 00:21:51.880 --> 00:21:55.799 lot better. They stand out a lot better. YEA, so 339 00:21:55.839 --> 00:22:00.319 they are a form of grotesque, but but they're not. 340 00:22:01.079 --> 00:22:04.000 Most grotestes are are not painted. Though. 341 00:22:04.400 --> 00:22:07.640 Yeah. I watched a good documentary on eavesdroppers in Hampton 342 00:22:07.720 --> 00:22:10.440 Court a few years ago, and so I just wondered 343 00:22:10.440 --> 00:22:13.160 if there was a relation between the two of them, 344 00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:16.960 And I guess it leads me to ask, as well, 345 00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:20.200 can you ever get gargoyles that are even though they're 346 00:22:20.200 --> 00:22:23.440 designed as water spouts? Can you ever get indoor ones 347 00:22:23.440 --> 00:22:24.200 for any reason? 348 00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:34.119 I guess if you were, you were somehow channeling water 349 00:22:35.559 --> 00:22:40.759 indoors or through inside, maybe up near the roof. I've 350 00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:42.920 never really seen them indoors. 351 00:22:44.319 --> 00:22:47.839 Mostly decorative ones that people buy for their houses or 352 00:22:47.880 --> 00:22:49.079 something modern ones. 353 00:22:49.839 --> 00:22:53.599 There are many grotesques that I've seen indoors, but not 354 00:22:53.640 --> 00:22:59.119 really ones, not really gargoyles that channel water. I've seen that. 355 00:22:59.200 --> 00:23:00.480 I haven't seen too many those. 356 00:23:00.759 --> 00:23:04.440 If I remember correctly, these appeared in something like the 357 00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:09.079 six hundreds originally something is that about? Right, Like the 358 00:23:09.119 --> 00:23:13.000 first time we saw gargoyles being used, it seems like 359 00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:17.400 they're they've kind of like coming gone in popularity. 360 00:23:17.839 --> 00:23:17.960 Uh. 361 00:23:18.599 --> 00:23:22.480 And I was curious as to why they were originally 362 00:23:22.519 --> 00:23:24.359 developed if I don't know, if you actually looked into 363 00:23:24.440 --> 00:23:27.079 that at all. I was wondering what drove them. I mean, 364 00:23:27.119 --> 00:23:30.960 they're they're artistic, but they're also functional. And I just 365 00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:33.960 don't know why they seem to have stuck around for 366 00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:35.680 so long. They've i mean, they've been around for such 367 00:23:35.720 --> 00:23:38.920 a long time to not have any particular you know, 368 00:23:39.119 --> 00:23:42.200 monster lore around them. I'm not really sure what the 369 00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:46.599 deal is there. It's sort of a really sticky meme almost. 370 00:23:45.960 --> 00:23:50.440 Well, as as you said, in the old days, in 371 00:23:50.559 --> 00:23:55.480 the in medieval times, gargoyles actually had a physical had 372 00:23:55.519 --> 00:24:00.119 a practical purpose to to remove water from the building 373 00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:03.440 to and they didn't just dump it off the side. 374 00:24:03.440 --> 00:24:06.599 They were kind of like spouted it away from the 375 00:24:07.279 --> 00:24:10.200 from the building, and that was so so the water 376 00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:12.720 wouldn't just pour down the side of the building and 377 00:24:12.799 --> 00:24:18.720 start to erode it. Now, later on, in probably maybe 378 00:24:18.759 --> 00:24:25.200 the fifteen sixteen hundreds, they developed down spouts and so 379 00:24:25.240 --> 00:24:28.599 they could remove water just down the side in a pipe. 380 00:24:29.079 --> 00:24:31.559 So the use of guard boyles kind of kind of 381 00:24:31.559 --> 00:24:36.200 faded out a bit, but then the style was revived 382 00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:41.519 in maybe the early eighteen hundreds because but more as 383 00:24:41.559 --> 00:24:44.240 a kind of a decorative affectation. 384 00:24:44.960 --> 00:24:47.759 Do they exist in other cultures at all? Do they 385 00:24:47.799 --> 00:24:51.640 just go back to the Middle Ages or they go 386 00:24:51.720 --> 00:24:54.799 back further than that in other countries or cultures? 387 00:24:55.200 --> 00:25:01.799 Well, they I've seen them on like ancient Greek temples, 388 00:25:02.759 --> 00:25:06.640 and they don't really They're They're a little different from 389 00:25:06.640 --> 00:25:10.720 the gargoyles that you and groteste that you that you 390 00:25:10.839 --> 00:25:14.359 imagine when people think of grotesques and gargoyls, they think 391 00:25:14.359 --> 00:25:18.559 of something medieval. But I've but I've seen decorative elements 392 00:25:18.599 --> 00:25:24.640 on ancient temples from ancient Greek, ancient Greece around so 393 00:25:24.799 --> 00:25:26.359 that time as well, it. 394 00:25:26.319 --> 00:25:28.200 Was it was it draining to do all this work 395 00:25:28.319 --> 00:25:29.599 taking all these photos. 396 00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:33.920 Well, I have to say, I mean it did it 397 00:25:33.960 --> 00:25:36.480 did get do you get tough? But Blake, I have 398 00:25:36.559 --> 00:25:39.640 to say I just kind of went with the flow nice. 399 00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:44.400 Well, I was thinking he was going to end the 400 00:25:44.440 --> 00:25:47.680 conversation at this point and scene. 401 00:25:49.200 --> 00:25:53.240