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Speaker 1: Being like Jack Webb, just moving from Fatima to Chesterfields.

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Ask not what your country can do for you, ask

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what you can do for your country.

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Speaker 2: Mister Gorbuchaw, Tear down this wall.

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Speaker 1: It's the Ricorche Podcast with Peter Robinson and Charles S. Cook.

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I'm James Lilacs. Since there's a lot of legal stuff

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in the news this week, of course we've got to

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talk to John and you. So let's ever so was

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a podcast.

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Speaker 3: Was asked directly, and he has said he wouldn't pardon

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his son if he gets convicted.

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Speaker 4: Let's quit see what happens if he loves Yeah, I mean,

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but he said it.

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Speaker 1: And this pardon is all about Joe Biden protecting Joe Biden.

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Speaker 5: It's shameful and completely unsurprising.

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Speaker 1: Ladies, gentlemen, as you know I'm in the final weeks

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of my presidency.

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Speaker 2: You don't have to clap for that. You can if

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you want.

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Speaker 1: Welcome everybody. It's the Ricochet Podcast, number seven, one hundred

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and eighteen. I'm James Lilacs, overly enunciating for some reason

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here in Minneapolis where it's cold and crisp and uh

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trending towards Christmasy a little dusting of snow. We like

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to have our white Christmases. After that, we're done with it,

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get it out of here, bring the spring on. But

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that's months and months away. However, next month brings what well,

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an inauguration, and then a new era begins. Here to

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discuss that cast the rize forward as well as backwards

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are Peter Robinson and Charles C. W. Cook gentlemen.

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Speaker 5: Welcome, Thank you, James, Charlie Jesus.

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Speaker 3: Very polite of you, James, thank you? What was very

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polite of me saying welcome? Oh well, that is my duty,

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I guess. I mean you will just raw dogg it

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as tam.

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Speaker 6: I appreciate. No.

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Speaker 1: So we had Thanksgiving before we get to the future.

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Everybody knows that Thanksgiving is you know, it's done, it's over,

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we're moving towards Christmas. But yet we ought to stop

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and think and wonder exactly what we were thankful for.

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Speaker 5: Briefly, Peter, Oh, well, I mean, my crude political is

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self is thankful that the other side lost, and I

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really am thankful for that. Honestly, the uh, the pall

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that lifted, just a feeling, there is a feeling of

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I'm in my x feed, Mark Andriesen is making this

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point a couple of times a day. But here in

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Silicon Valley there is a feeling of renewed energies. Now,

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I know that that may not sit well with the

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rest of the country, and there are plenty of people

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here in Silicon Valley about whom I have my own reservations,

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and some companies about whom I have my own reservations.

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But the notion that people are free er, much freeer,

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feel freer, will be freer to invest as they choose

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to invest, to gather capital, to hire engineers to start

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new projects, is quite a thing, and to my surpproblem

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more than I I would have expected. You can actually

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feel the difference. Then, of course the usual things which

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are more important to me but less interesting to everybody else,

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which is the health of each of my children. Nobody's

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in jail, nobody's in the hospital, We're doing fine as

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a family. All that, of course matters enormously, but is

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of no interest in anybody but me.

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Speaker 1: Chars like spoken like a true privileged member of the

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oligarchical overclass doesn't have to worry about being sent to Auschwitz.

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Speaker 5: On the Rio Grande Auschwitz. Ah, yes, yes, Charles.

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Speaker 7: What am I grateful for? That's a fellow member of

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the overclass. Well, I'm very grateful for my family. I

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am grateful that I have a job. But you know,

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the thing that struck me this year more than any

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other was inspired by a comment from Rich Larry on

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the Editors podcast, which was actually in connection to a

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discussion of space rockets going up near where? And he

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said to me, did you ever think you would be

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able to walk out of your back door and you

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would be able to watch rocket launches? And so one No,

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I wanted to live in America, and I do, and

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I'm very, very grateful for this. This year, I felt

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especially grateful for this that of all the things when

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I was a little kid, I wanted more than anything

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before I had any politics or any real conception of

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the adult world.

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Speaker 6: I just wanted to live in America. And I do.

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And that's a magical thing. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: What I love about the rockets launching is that it's

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become so ordinary, It's become almost banal to see this

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slender tower rising on a pillar of flame to go

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into the imperium and deposit its litter of satellites connecting

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to the world. What I love about it, of course,

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I love the fact that Elon Musk in the back

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of his head is motivated by the same sort of

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sci fi tropes that I probably grew up with. Is

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that you land a rocket on a pad with its

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legs that come out of the side like they did

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in Destination Moon. I'm surprised that he hasn't put up

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something and looks exactly like the rocket and Tintins and

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Adventures to the Moon. I never cease to marvel at

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seeing these cylinders come from the sky and right themselves

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and land on a platform on the ocean. It's astonishing,

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and I love the fact that it's absolutely ordinary. People

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always say, you know, in the future, where's my flying car?

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You don't want a flying car, trust me, you don't.

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You don't want people to be up there buzzing a round.

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I mean, if anybody actually remembers Jetson's flying cars were

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actually pretty horrible because you were stuck in traffic all

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the time in this narrow little band and everybody bunching

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it up together. So no, I don't want that. I

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don't want that at all. But I mean, when you

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look at the size of the starship compared to the

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Saturn five. You goggle and you realize we're back. We're back,

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and this is an extremely consequential moment in human history.

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Speaker 5: Have you noticed, James, that I seem to be winning

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an argument that you and I have been having for

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perhaps a decade now. You keep saying space travel, space travel,

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the romance of it, it touches something in our souls.

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And I keep saying, space travel, but only if financed

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with private money. I'm done. During the Cold War, it

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was an active war to go to the moon. Fine,

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we needed to do it in some basic way to

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defeat the Soviets. That's over. And I keep arguing, fine,

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go explore space, but not with the public's money. And

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the world has taken Apparently Elon has been listening to

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you and me debate this for over these many years.

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Speaker 1: Well, good for him and good for you, and yes,

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I'm happy however we get there. I wouldn't have mined

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the expenditure of public funds because I think it's an

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act of sort of civilizational philanthropy. But that's just me

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and everybody's got their little carve out. You know, I

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don't want you to spend on that. But this is

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my pet project which tickles my gizzard. So do this. Yes,

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well here we are then good, so we're all grateful.

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I was actually not in America. I was in Mexico

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on Thanksgiving Day?

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Speaker 5: And was that why you were so to you look

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rather be basted yourself?

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Speaker 1: It was? It was. It was wonderful, and they put

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on a Thanksgiving dinner for the Americans who come to

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come to the resort, and it's always there. We're in Mexico, Cancun, which,

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as I say in my upcoming podcast, doesn't really qualify

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as going to Mexico. It's getting into one little sealed,

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pressurized tube and going to a place, getting briefly scammed,

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getting out of the scam, and then taking a car

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to a nice little walled garden where you can pretend

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you're in Mexico. But I still will take it napped

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and I'm you know, we were, We actually were, but

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we got out of it, and Barren hangs it. Well,

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inasmuch as we were the do I have to go

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into this. We were the victim of a scam at

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the airport. Uh And by victim, I mean to say

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that I walked right into it and actually had the

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misfortune of trust trusting a man with a badge. Uh,

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never trust a man with a badge in Mexico, is

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what I have learned since now we were not actually

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probably in any physical peril. We wouldn't we ended up

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would have ended up spending twice as much money as

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we needed to get to our resort, but we would

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have got there. But it was. It was still a

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thing that makes me look back and say, ha ha,

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you old can't coon hand, you idiot. But we had

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a Thanksgiving dinner in Mexico which was amusing because they

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can't get it right and it's not that hard. But

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they had a turkey that was The stuffing was basically hagas.

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That's okay, I love hagus too, but it wasn't but

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it's not but it's not is great.

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Speaker 5: Un American to love has Charlie, Well, it's illegal.

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Speaker 7: It was for me pizza because it's a Scottish dish.

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I'm pretty it's a former Englishman.

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Speaker 1: You can't get it here because it's illegal. They don't

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allow you know, loves foods in America. But there's this

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stuffing was wrong. There was no pumpkin pie. There was

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pumpkin cake and everything was all the details were a

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little off, but it was you know, it was like

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it was like being in the zoo run by aliens,

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where they've studied enough of your culture to be able

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to try to make you feel at home in the

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special day. So that was great.

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Speaker 5: Yes, May I mend my thanks? Yes, And it's your

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tales of Mexico that bring this to mind. It has

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been in my mind the last couple of days post Thanksgiving,

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but still I'm thankful for it. Survey the world and

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France is in a constitutional crisis. The Fifth Republic does

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not see the Constitution of the Fifth Republic does not

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seem to have taken into account the kind of circumstance

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in which a government has fallen, but it is not

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legal for the President of the Republic to call a

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new election for something like a year. Germany is facing

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a series of elections in which the general expectation is

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that the two parties that the Part of the Right

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and the Party of the Left, will have to go

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into coalition to avoid the Party of what everybody is

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calling the far right. In other words, we have paralysis.

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The government of Prime Minkre Starmer only a few months

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old in Britain is now polling below, well below thirty

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percent paralysis in Britain. In Mexico, conversation with a friend

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of mine who an American who ran the American branch

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of a bank in Mexico City, and every single person

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of the rank of vice president and above had either

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been kidnapped or had a family member kidnapped. Mexico beautiful

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country where some large portion of the economy is run

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by cartels, and everybody knows it. Gentlemen, we live in

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top country. The country that is not having a constitutional crisis,

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despite all the nonsense, all the claims that Donald Trump

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would represent a threat to democracy. The country that is

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functioning is this one. It is good to be in

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country number one.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. I'll give you an example of this. You

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left out Syria, of course, well we left out the

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whole Middle East. But Syria is in a perilous state

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at the moment, and it's going to be interesting to

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see how that shakes out. But while in Kancun, I

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had the con I had the opportunity to talk to

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people from every nation because a lot of people come

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Germans come there.

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Speaker 5: Oh, I didn't know that that's it's popular with the Europeans.

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I didn't realize long.

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Speaker 1: Way to get there, Brits talk to some Britz talked

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to a lot of Canadians, everybody who's unhappy with their country.

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Everybody was unhappy with their country, and across all kinds

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of demographic and money lines. There's some you know, this

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man Mountain Kinoko is talking to it. The bar Slam

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of Tequila was a miner in Manitoba. Guy who's down

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there with a pickaxe, and they all are drastically unhappy

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with their with their country, and they're all really giving

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a thumbs up to America and for Donald Trump. Now

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there was a German I was speaking to who was

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when I finally got him going, and it took a

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little while. Uh went on a rant about decarbonization and

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renewables that was just epic in its scope and scale,

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about the idiocy of it, and how they've undercut their

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own security and their own industrial capacity and made themselves

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rely on others, and how it isn't going to work

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and the numbers aren't there, and it's absolutely I mean,

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it's just it was, it was, it was, It was operatic.

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And I asked him, I said, wow, yeah, I agree

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with you. What do you what do you do for

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living in Germany? And he looked down and then he

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looked up and he said, I sell photovoltaic rooftop equipment

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solar and there you go, there you go, uh, you know,

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complicit in it up to his neck and knowing exactly

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what's happening. But that seemed to sum up some of

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the some of the attitudes anyway. Charles, Yes, right, well, he.

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Speaker 7: Likes the regime just because he has to carry out

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his orders, just fulfilling.

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Speaker 1: Orders that have been placed by legitim customers.

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Speaker 5: Charlie, Charlie, it was seventy years ago. Let it go, Let.

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Speaker 6: It go, absolutely not. I will never let it go.

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Speaker 7: I grew up with this being the running joke. Frequently

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returned to running joke. We have junkies, but every Saturday

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afternoon we had Dad's Army Lolo and it was just

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make fun of the Germans day and the local pub

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that we would go to, even when I was a kid.

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In the bathroom, the men's bathroom, all over the wall,

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they have a collection framed each one of Gallow's humor

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cartoons drawn for the newspapers during.

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Speaker 6: World War two.

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Speaker 7: During the war, and of course that's the point at

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which it wasn't funny at all. And still the British

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managed to make joke after joke after joke about the

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Germans and Hitler and Son.

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Speaker 6: So I will not let it go.

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Speaker 1: Actually, well there you go. I would like to say

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something about something, but Rob isn't here, so I'm not

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even going. I want Rob to know that there's not

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even a commercial ad segue for him to spoil. I

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want him, in whatever monastic cell he is right now,

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to just all of a sudden, bolt upright and bang

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his head on the bunk above and say it. I

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could be spoiling the segue, but I'm not because frankly,

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I just want to stop and tell you that Charles

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is going to give what I believe to be on

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the Flagship Podcast his first personal endorsement. Now you're wondering

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for what he is going to be for a fine

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fine you know, golf cart accessory, Is it going to

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be for a great American monitor or what he drinks?

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But we can find out that you know what it is.

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It's sheets. M h. And if you're thinking, oh, I've

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heard this, no you haven't. No, you haven't because I'm

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here to tell you about Cozy Earth. Cozy Earth we

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have a goal, and the goal is to help you

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create a sanctuary within your home, a refuge from the

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demands of the outside world. Cozy Earth understands the significance

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of finding comfort and tranquility in our hectic lives. You're

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five to nine, as we like, the college should consist

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of relaxation, rejuvenation and unwinding and embracing a sense of calm.

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And with Cozy Earth, you can transform your space into

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an elevated haven or serenity and renewable intertwined effortlessly. Cozy

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Earth sheets are so breathable you'll sleep several degrees cooler.

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And I imagine that matters in Florida, does it us? Charles?

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Would you like to tell people about your personal experience

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with Cozy Earth sheets.

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Speaker 7: I love these sheets, but you know I did the

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smart thing when I was choosing them, which was not

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to choose them, but instead let my wife choose them.

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Speaker 5: So she use sexist pig is what a thing.

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Speaker 7: To say, because if I had if I had ordered

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Cozy Earth sheets of my own choosing, I would have

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got it wrong. You see, not because the sheets would

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have been wrong, because they're all terrific, but because I

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would have got the wrong color or got the wrong

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size or got ones.

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Speaker 6: You know.

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Speaker 7: So I said to my wife, and I don't just

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need to endorse this on behalf of myself. Although I

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do love these sheets and they are nice and cool,

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but my wife absolutely loves them.

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Speaker 6: Was extremely excited at the prospect.

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Speaker 7: So far from being sexist picked she jumped with joy

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when I said, you can go onto the internet and

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choose some sheets and then put them on the bed

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and then sleep in them, which we do every night,

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and staying cool is actually extremely important and quite difficult

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sometimes here. So cozy sheets are terrific. Everything James said

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is true. Go buy them.

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Speaker 1: Well, there you have it. You can go on the internet,

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you can buy them, you can have them delivered, you

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can put them on the bed and then you can

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sleep on them. Imagine that.

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Speaker 6: You have to do it, and actually otherwise it won't work.

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Speaker 1: You must. But you can do that with any sheets.

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But the thing is that the Cozy Earth they're different.

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The ultimate ingredient for luxury of sleep would be softness.

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Right well, Cozy Earth uses only the best fabrics and

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the best tech tile tax styles to enhance that. Cozy

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Earth betting and bath products again bath rugs as well

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have get this a ten year warranty. That's how much

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Cozy Earth believes in them. A little about more about

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their story and what makes Cozy Earth different. Wrap the

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ones you loved in the luxury with Cozy Earth. Visit

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cozyearth dot com slash ricochet and use the exclusive You're

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Ready forty percent off code Ricochet and you can give

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the gift of luxury this holiday season. Who doesn't need

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new sheets? Everybody needs new sheets. That's cozyearth dot com

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slash ricochet forty percent off. You get a post purchase survey.

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Speaker 5: You get one of those.

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00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:37,920
Speaker 1: Tell him you heard about Cozy Earth from the guys

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00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:40,480
at the Ricochet Podcast, and we thank Cozy Earth for

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00:17:40,519 --> 00:17:45,440
sponsoring this the Ricochet Podcast. I now we happily bring

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to the pot. Oh, I'm sorry, I thought we had

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that other guest. Oh, I know.

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Speaker 2: The only reason I'm here is because someone canceled last Yeah, so.

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Speaker 1: All right, we got John you, Professor of Law UC Berkeley,

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also seen your research fellow Civitas Institute, University of Tech

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at Austin and a non resident Senior Fellow at the

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American Enterprise Institute. I hope they upgrade you at some point.

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He's the author of several books, most recently Defender in

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Chief Donald Trump's Fight for Presidential Power. Hey John, how

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are you doing good? Good?

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Speaker 2: How are you guys?

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Speaker 1: Got?

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Speaker 2: I can't Are we talking about Pardons or Penny Penny?

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Speaker 1: Well, let's let's talk Penny first, because Pardons is bigger

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and thicker and richer and deeper. But wow, are we

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gonna have a mistrial? And then and then they're gonna

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do this the smart thing and say, nah, we're not

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gonna try him again.

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Speaker 2: This is why electing prosecutors in the DA can be

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an important thing. Because here's a guy, Alvin Bragg, who

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put Penny on trial, I think for doing something heroic.

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He now has a choice if this goes into a mistrial,

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whether to retry Penny again, continue taking his freedom away right,

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put him on trial for his freedom for years, or

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whether you, I think, do the right thing and use

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his discretion to drop the case. Here's the guy, this

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is the same Alvin braggart course, who decided to spend

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years and millions of dollars going after Donald Trump in

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the hush money case and not bringing certain felonies for

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a violent crime in New York City and Manhattan while

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pursuing people like Donald Trump. So I think, unfortunately this

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guy is this guy Alvan Bragg is probably gonna retry

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Penny again. If this mister just declaire.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, because maybe they're not completely stupid and a

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wetted finger can tell them that there is a there

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is something of a vibe shift even in New York

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when it comes. I mean, then I'm one. I would

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love to hear exactly what the jury's jurors are discussing precisely. Yes,

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how many of them? The herodon who got up there

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and you know, made the case case about the white

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man doing this thing. It's prime a facia. I don't

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think that they had anything with it. Again, I'm not

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a lawyer.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so can you tell John a lawyer that you are?

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Or can you can you give us I can speculate?

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Can you give us informed speculation? How could it be

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that there are any jurors at all who want to

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convict this guy.

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Speaker 2: Tru's not a legal question, that's a psychology question. Well,

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all right, or you're not a psychologist either, Peter, although

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you play one on TV. So here here's the thing.

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So for a hungury or what we're seeing now, you

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only need one person actually to hold out. So they

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may only be one person on the jury who wants

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to convict I see, and eleven other people who don't.

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So hungary just means that the jury couldn't come to agreement,

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all right, And that's why you can That's why the

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usual possibility after is you can have a whole new

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trial and try with a different jury. So it's neither

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an acquittal or a conviction. Now, why this is happen?

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Speaker 5: How long can the judge just a technical question? How

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long can the judge? I guess Actually I was about

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to say, permit this to go on, but it's actually

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the judge who's insisting that they continue to deliberate. When

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does the judge say, all right, that's it, hung jury on?

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Speaker 1: We go?

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Speaker 5: Well, how long does he have? How does his does

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his discretion come into play?

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Speaker 1: There?

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Speaker 2: Oh, he doesn't have months or even weeks. Usually judges

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get right to it. So what they've done now is

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issued what's called an alan charge, which is I think

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of it as the pretty please, pretty please issue from

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the judge which he goes to the jury and the

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aland charge just says, could you guys really really think

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hard and try to be reasonable and come to a

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unanimous verdict. If that fails, then usually the jury can

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come out and say, even with this Island charge, we

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still can't come to a unanimous decision. Then usually the

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judge right away will declare mistrue.

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Speaker 5: Well okay, And does the judge know if it's six

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six or one versus eleven? Does he have any indication

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of how hung they are?

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Speaker 6: So to speak?

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Speaker 2: No, but I think you're allowed to find out afterwards

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after the trials are Then you see all the jurors

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will rush out to the TV cameras accompanied by Jonathan

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Early and we'll find out pretty quickly what.

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Speaker 5: The But the notion that the judge issues of an

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Alan charge does not imply that he thinks there's only

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one or two holdouts who could be tek.

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Speaker 2: He doesn't know, He doesn't know. The Alan church is

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usually judges. If you think about a trial, judges spent

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and the state, the you know, the public spends a

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lot of time and resources to put on a jury trial.

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It takes months if this one, you know, takes months,

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so they don't want to The judge doesn't want to

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waste all that time. Plus the judge is gonna have

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to do it all over again for a new trial.

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So most I think most of the time they do

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issue an allan charge. It's not unusual to do something

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like this.

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Speaker 7: So, Charlie John, as far as I understand this, there

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are two charges, the second degree manslaughter and then there's negligence.

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So if the jury is hung on the second degree

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manslaughter to charge, it can still convict of negligence. If

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that's the case, do you think that would diminish Alvin

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Bragg's desire to try the manslaugh to charge because he'd

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have got something out of this. He'd be able to

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say we didn't waste time, It wasn't a crazy prosecution,

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and Daniel Penny is going to pay some.

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Speaker 6: Price, a bit I think unjustly for his actions.

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Speaker 2: An interesting question, Charli. Yeah, there's two different charges, and

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the jury so far has hung only on the first one.

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They haven't proceeded to the lesser charge. The first charge

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is what we call reckless manslaughter. That's different than the

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murder we see on British TV shows that Peter likes.

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If you can see Peter's background, he's watching Masterpiece Theater

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right now on his little screen. We know it and

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I know it. If you were a first degree manslaughter,

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you know, intentional murder, you know, with deliberation and planning

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some usually that would be different things. This is reckless.

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This means that Penny acted with disregard, right, that he

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acted recklessly and that led to the death of subwry writer.

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Even if he's not convicted. That Charlie's choir right, there's

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a lesser charge, which is just negligence, which is just

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kind of like, well, even if you weren't reckless, you

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still shouldn't have done what you did. Now, the important

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thing I think for Charlie's question this gets more into

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the political aspect of it is I think that really

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depends on the sentence. Suppose a jury convicts on this,

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you were merely negligent, as I understand that the sentencing

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range could be zero. There is no required sentence, so

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that's when we will really see. In response to Peter's question,

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what the judge really thinks about all this. The judge

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could sentence him to zero and say I think you

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know that. Actually, yeah, you've been through and what you

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did had a lot of benefits to society. Then brag

474
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:51,920
looks I think. Then brag looks the worst. Right then

475
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,079
you have a judge saying this should never have been

476
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:56,720
brought and I'm giving you zero years in jail. Now

477
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:58,519
he could also I think, give him up to I

478
00:24:58,519 --> 00:25:00,839
think the sentence arrange could be up to four years,

479
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,400
so it gives a full sentence of four years. Right,

480
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:08,200
then Alvin Bragg, as Charlie suggests, might come out looking

481
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:10,960
good and not need to retry him on the tougher

482
00:25:11,039 --> 00:25:11,799
first charge.

483
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 5: And to raise the obvious issue here, meaning we have

484
00:25:14,559 --> 00:25:16,759
to get to this issue before we let you go, John,

485
00:25:16,799 --> 00:25:20,680
one way or the other. Presidential pardons. If the judge

486
00:25:20,799 --> 00:25:24,240
slams this guy with a maximum sentence, wouldn't that be

487
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:25,680
a case where Donald Trump.

488
00:25:25,519 --> 00:25:29,640
Speaker 6: That's the state, Yes, the clause.

489
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:34,559
Speaker 2: We got to rely on the guy for Britain to

490
00:25:34,599 --> 00:25:36,000
read the text of the constitution.

491
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:40,599
Speaker 4: Charlie's John, if the guy not even even worse the

492
00:25:40,599 --> 00:25:45,640
guy from Florida, Charlie makes you and Richard Epstein look

493
00:25:45,799 --> 00:25:46,759
perfectly ignorant.

494
00:25:46,799 --> 00:25:47,640
Speaker 5: John, I want you to.

495
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:48,920
Speaker 2: Well, it's right here.

496
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:50,640
Speaker 4: So the.

497
00:25:52,279 --> 00:25:56,400
Speaker 2: Pardon power only has two exceptions for impeachment, and as

498
00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:01,119
Charlie just said, it only applies to federal crimes. This

499
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:04,440
is a state crime. But I'm going to start suggesting this.

500
00:26:04,759 --> 00:26:07,960
That doesn't mean Donald Trump can't do something about this.

501
00:26:09,079 --> 00:26:11,319
In fact, I'm surprised he hasn't thought of this already.

502
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,039
Maybe after he listens to this podcast to start doing it.

503
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,960
Why doesn't Donald Trump go out and say, I think

504
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,839
the criminal justice system in New York is broken and wild.

505
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,240
I'm cutting all federal funds off to the City of

506
00:26:22,319 --> 00:26:25,759
New York's justice system. I'm not giving anymore police grants,

507
00:26:25,799 --> 00:26:29,480
I'm not giving any more law enforcement effected. I'm sure

508
00:26:29,559 --> 00:26:32,119
the federal government sends millions and millions of dollars to

509
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,759
New York City's courts and police officers. And I'm going

510
00:26:35,839 --> 00:26:38,200
to have the Civil Rights Division of the Justice Department

511
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,680
conduct an investigation and to whether the New York City

512
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,680
Prosecutor's office is racist, because here I see case after

513
00:26:44,839 --> 00:26:48,960
case of innocent white guys being prosecuted for things like

514
00:26:49,039 --> 00:26:53,000
being heroes on the subway, where I see right, dangerous

515
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:57,960
felons who may be minorities, not being prosecuted by Alvin Bragg.

516
00:26:58,279 --> 00:27:02,200
He could launch an investigation, would drive that office bonkers.

517
00:27:02,799 --> 00:27:06,799
Speaker 1: Refusing to use federal money to control a state apparatus

518
00:27:06,839 --> 00:27:12,000
and then investigating them for racial preferences instead of racial neutrality.

519
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:13,559
That's fascism straight up.

520
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 5: So what about Biden's pardon of Hunter, and what about

521
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:28,319
this notion of preemptive pardons? He could do that, couldn't

522
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:30,240
he He could say as far as that goes, he could say,

523
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,039
everybody in the state of Delaware, I here by every

524
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,039
pardon everybody in the state of Delaware, and according to

525
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,880
the Supreme Court it's done. Everybody in the state of

526
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:40,240
Delaware is pardon correct.

527
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,680
Speaker 2: This is actually a question where George Washington and Abraham

528
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,160
Lincoln set the precedence, not the Supreme Court. At the Court,

529
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:51,839
the pardon power doesn't say anything about whether you can

530
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:57,599
pardon people for actions, not charges. So what Peter's asking is,

531
00:27:57,759 --> 00:28:00,400
can you pardon someone for things they did? But there's

532
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,920
been no investigation, there's been no prosecution. There may we

533
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,559
may not even know about it yet. It just happened

534
00:28:06,599 --> 00:28:10,200
in the past. So this is this is and you

535
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:11,839
could have gone the other way. If you look at

536
00:28:11,839 --> 00:28:13,519
the text of the Constitution. You could have gone the

537
00:28:13,559 --> 00:28:15,880
other way and said, oh no, the part and power

538
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,200
really exists only for people who are charged or people

539
00:28:19,279 --> 00:28:21,440
are actually sentenced and in jail. That would have been

540
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:25,440
the narrower reading. So what happened in the first time

541
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:27,559
the part of power is used by George Washington is

542
00:28:27,599 --> 00:28:30,759
in the Whiskey Rebellion, which sounds like rob Long at

543
00:28:30,799 --> 00:28:35,279
a bar i digress. So in the wisky rebellion, Yeah, well,

544
00:28:35,279 --> 00:28:38,359
with whisky reboundon, there's a people out in western Pennsylvania,

545
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,240
my home state, who still hate taxes to this day.

546
00:28:41,559 --> 00:28:43,440
They didn't want to pay tax on whiskey, so they

547
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,599
actually kind of attacked the courthouse and harassed federal officials.

548
00:28:46,799 --> 00:28:49,799
George Washington came out at the head of an army.

549
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:51,559
I mean he actually led the army in the field

550
00:28:51,559 --> 00:28:54,279
to suppress it. But then after he put down the

551
00:28:54,319 --> 00:28:57,079
rebellion with no loss of life, he pardoned the ring leaders,

552
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:02,519
as you're saying, preemptively before they were even charged. And

553
00:29:02,559 --> 00:29:05,039
then the biggest one we've ever had in our history

554
00:29:05,319 --> 00:29:09,119
was Abraham Lincoln and Andrew Johnson pardoned all the members

555
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:13,559
of the Confederacy. Millions of people as a way to

556
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,759
heal the nation after the Civil War. So because of

557
00:29:16,799 --> 00:29:20,119
those presidents, we've always accepted this idea, but it's not

558
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,000
i would say natural from the text of the Constitution.

559
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 7: Is there a difference, John, between preemptively pardoning someone in

560
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:35,079
say the Whiskey Rebellion for an act that is by

561
00:29:35,119 --> 00:29:41,119
definition cabined because Washington had to intervene and giving them

562
00:29:41,119 --> 00:29:44,960
a blank check. For example, the Hunter Biden pardon was

563
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,400
issued at I think eight pm, but it lasted until midnight,

564
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:50,559
so everyone joked, you know, Hunter has four hours to

565
00:29:50,599 --> 00:29:54,119
go out and do whatever he wants. But the potential

566
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,079
preemptive pardons that are now being debated in the White House,

567
00:29:57,119 --> 00:29:59,960
apparently without Joe Biden's involvement, if you read the reporting,

568
00:30:00,599 --> 00:30:03,519
seem to be completely black.

569
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 6: In other words, it's not Washington.

570
00:30:05,559 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 7: Saying, we know we just had this rebellion, I am

571
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,039
pardoning you in a blanket sense for your involvement in it,

572
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,559
or Lincoln saying I am pardoning you for being involved

573
00:30:16,599 --> 00:30:20,319
in the Confederacy. That I assume the crime being treason.

574
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:24,920
That this is if you are somebody we suspect that

575
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:28,240
Trump might not like you, cannot be federally.

576
00:30:27,799 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 6: Prosecuted for anything anything. Is that different or not.

577
00:30:32,839 --> 00:30:36,119
Speaker 2: I think it is different in the sense that there

578
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:40,359
haven't been examples of this from American history. So now

579
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:45,640
we must blame our forebearers and Charlie's direct ancestors. We

580
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:47,960
would have to go back and look at English constitutional

581
00:30:48,039 --> 00:30:50,920
history leading up to seventeen eighty eight to see if

582
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,880
the English king had ever issued a pardon like this.

583
00:30:54,799 --> 00:30:58,079
My memory is that Queen Elizabeth, I swear to God,

584
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,519
might have issued in like this. This has never come

585
00:31:01,599 --> 00:31:04,400
up to the Supreme Court before. Usually what has happened

586
00:31:04,599 --> 00:31:08,640
is the prosecutors just choose to recognize the pardon and

587
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:12,680
never bring charges or even investigate. It has become a

588
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:14,440
kind of immuniy shield. But I think you're quite right.

589
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,920
We never had pardons that didn't mention any particulars of

590
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,400
a crime. Right, as you say, it's just a time period,

591
00:31:21,599 --> 00:31:23,200
and it's just like anything you might have done in

592
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:27,400
this time period. I mean, that would be an interesting challenge,

593
00:31:27,519 --> 00:31:31,119
but I don't. I think the courts would probably still

594
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,319
uphold pardons like that. But it is really different in

595
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:38,119
nature because you see, take all the arguments that the

596
00:31:38,119 --> 00:31:42,000
liberals have made about why the Trump presidential Community decision

597
00:31:42,079 --> 00:31:45,240
is so bad, right, oh, undermines the rule of law,

598
00:31:45,319 --> 00:31:47,920
so on and so forth. The Supreme Court still gave

599
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:51,119
the immunity because of the singular importance of the presidency.

600
00:31:51,599 --> 00:31:55,400
What these prospective pardons are doing is giving that immunity

601
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,920
to lots and lots of other people who aren't the president,

602
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:00,799
and in fact they are private people. In many cases

603
00:32:01,119 --> 00:32:04,240
they get the same kind of right the fucktor shield

604
00:32:04,279 --> 00:32:07,920
from all federal investigation and prosecution, which is Supreme Court

605
00:32:08,039 --> 00:32:10,440
is really said, should only really be applied to the president.

606
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:15,759
Speaker 5: So okay, so you're in the White House. By the way, James,

607
00:32:15,799 --> 00:32:17,839
I think said a moment ago, or what was Charlie,

608
00:32:17,839 --> 00:32:19,920
that the debates are taking place without the involvement of

609
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:20,720
President Biden.

610
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 4: If that makes difference in the other exactly, if a

611
00:32:25,039 --> 00:32:27,319
debate has taking place, you can be sure it's without

612
00:32:27,359 --> 00:32:28,079
his involvement.

613
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,359
Speaker 5: Okay, So these bright sparks at the White House, say,

614
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:37,039
Anthony Fauci, he had to do all kinds of things.

615
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,720
We don't know whether they were criminal. There's this question

616
00:32:40,759 --> 00:32:44,160
about whether he he permitted funding of gain of research

617
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:48,799
function and wuhan. But we're for sure. We for sure

618
00:32:48,799 --> 00:32:50,680
feel that Trump and his people are going to go

619
00:32:50,759 --> 00:32:53,839
after Fauci, and so we're going to issue a pardon

620
00:32:54,039 --> 00:32:58,200
for Fauci for anything he might have done from date

621
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:01,680
A to date B. One, do they have to get

622
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:02,599
Fauci's permission?

623
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:03,799
Speaker 1: Can they do it?

624
00:33:03,839 --> 00:33:05,799
Speaker 5: Because I think Fauci is on record A saying he

625
00:33:05,839 --> 00:33:08,680
doesn't want to pardon. Do they have to get his permission?

626
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:09,359
Speaker 1: Two?

627
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,359
Speaker 5: If there are these constitutional questions, who has standing to

628
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,200
take to object to who has standing to take that

629
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,680
to the Supreme Court? How does that get litigated?

630
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:24,119
Speaker 2: So first, usually the practices, you have to accept the pardon,

631
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,799
so you can you can turn it down. It's a defense.

632
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:30,279
So if you want to don't want to rely on it,

633
00:33:30,319 --> 00:33:32,480
you don't want to accept it, you don't have to

634
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:36,119
you say I don't want the pardon. And often there

635
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:40,039
have been people exactly like doctor Fauci said, I'm innocent,

636
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:42,440
I don't want to pardon. Don't give me a part,

637
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,400
and I won't accept a pardon because they maintain their

638
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:49,359
innocence throughout. So there's a number of interesting ways that

639
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:53,799
would come up legally. One thing is this will come

640
00:33:53,839 --> 00:33:57,279
up with the Hunter case. Interesting because despite Charlie and

641
00:33:57,319 --> 00:33:59,559
I talking about how broad the partner is, it's not

642
00:33:59,599 --> 00:34:01,880
a comple get out of jail free card. Hunter can

643
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,240
still be investigated for state crimes. I mean, the basic

644
00:34:05,279 --> 00:34:08,559
things he's been accused of, money laundering, influenced pedling are

645
00:34:08,639 --> 00:34:12,920
state crimes too, So the story's not over for him.

646
00:34:13,119 --> 00:34:15,559
Wouldn't be over for doctor Fauci either. I mean he's

647
00:34:15,559 --> 00:34:18,880
a simple fraud and lying is still state crime, primarily

648
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,440
a state crime, So it could come up in several ways.

649
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:27,599
For example, Congress, would I expect say, now that you're

650
00:34:27,599 --> 00:34:30,880
an under under threat of prosecution Hunter Biden or doctor Frauchi,

651
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:34,320
you come up and testify. So one the beginning thing

652
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:37,800
will be, would Hunter Biden be able to claim the

653
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,039
Fifth Amendment anymore as he has been doing?

654
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:41,639
Speaker 1: It doesn't seem like it.

655
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:43,559
Speaker 2: No, No, you would think not. But he could say,

656
00:34:43,599 --> 00:34:47,119
what if I get prosecuted by some red state DA

657
00:34:47,199 --> 00:34:51,920
what if Ken Paxton and Texas comes after me, I'm

658
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:54,800
still going to claim the Fifth Would doctor Fauci do

659
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,360
the same thing with a pardon? That could get litigated

660
00:34:57,400 --> 00:34:59,920
because Congress could then go to court and say, Nope,

661
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,440
you don't have the right to refuse US pardon could

662
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,599
also come up in a state prosecution. Donald Trump is

663
00:35:06,599 --> 00:35:09,280
actually this is interesting. Donald Trump is actually making the

664
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,320
same claims in court now. Right at the beginning of

665
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,840
the week, he filed briefs in his New York and

666
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,960
Georgia cases basically saying, well, on the same ground. I mean,

667
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,280
I don't think it makes sense legally, but he's saying rhetorically,

668
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:26,639
because Joe Biden said such terrible things about the Justice

669
00:35:26,639 --> 00:35:29,440
Department and its corruption and the need to give Hunter

670
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,159
Biden to pardon, you should drop these cases because I'm

671
00:35:32,199 --> 00:35:33,639
even more important than Hunter.

672
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 1: Right right, what could they get Founci on. I mean,

673
00:35:37,199 --> 00:35:39,719
I know, in our gutta guts, what we all think

674
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,280
happened was that Obama signed the degree that said that

675
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:47,719
we're not going to be weaponizing coronaviruses anymore. And then consequently,

676
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,800
as it goes the story, Fauci in cooperation with Eco

677
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:54,199
Health and some other people off shortage to Wuhan send

678
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:56,239
some money their way, and the stuff continues, so that

679
00:35:56,280 --> 00:36:00,559
they could put together a robust catalog of viruses that

680
00:36:00,599 --> 00:36:04,039
they could then have the antidote for the vaccine. That

681
00:36:04,199 --> 00:36:05,599
was the idea, you know, we got to make the

682
00:36:05,679 --> 00:36:08,719
absolute worst devil superbug, so we can figure out how

683
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:10,559
to beat it. And then it got out of hand

684
00:36:10,599 --> 00:36:15,199
because bad, bad management, bad protocols, It escapes and the

685
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:17,559
next thing you know, you got millions of people dead.

686
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:22,639
Now you think that that's sort of criminal. But is it?

687
00:36:23,519 --> 00:36:25,719
If it's the line to Congress. I mean, people get

688
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:27,199
up there in the line to Congress all the time.

689
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,000
It can't be that. So what is the what would

690
00:36:30,079 --> 00:36:31,559
Joe I mean? I know we've said this before, but

691
00:36:31,639 --> 00:36:35,360
exactly what would by Joe Biden pardoning Faunci. I think

692
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:36,920
a lot of people who hadn't paid any attention this

693
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:38,760
would swirl their head up and say, wait a minute,

694
00:36:39,079 --> 00:36:39,679
what did he do?

695
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:43,880
Speaker 2: I think the first one is, as you mentioned, lying

696
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:47,320
to Congress, right, doctor Fauci said, I believe he said

697
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,840
to investigators that he had no knowledge and was not

698
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:55,360
involved in any diversion of funds to this nonprofit, and

699
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,159
then they sent it to China, right to the Wuhan

700
00:36:58,519 --> 00:37:02,199
Institute of Virology. The second thing is it could be

701
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:07,159
criminal if right, this is kind of like Iran contra. Right,

702
00:37:07,199 --> 00:37:10,639
he took money from appropriated funds and he diverted it

703
00:37:11,079 --> 00:37:13,840
to this group with the intention of sending it to

704
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:18,639
China to conduct illegal research. Is that really that much

705
00:37:18,639 --> 00:37:22,519
different than the Iran Contra? Fair You remember that's where

706
00:37:22,559 --> 00:37:27,079
the Reagan national security officials diverted funds and sent them

707
00:37:27,079 --> 00:37:29,719
to the contras that was supposed to go back into

708
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,239
the treasury. So you could say, I mean, you could

709
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,639
investigate him at least for misuse of federal funds. I mean,

710
00:37:35,679 --> 00:37:38,639
this is actually if he did it with that, really

711
00:37:38,679 --> 00:37:41,119
lot of it depends on his understanding and intention of

712
00:37:41,119 --> 00:37:44,679
where the money was going and why he approved those funds.

713
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:48,199
But if he did that, that's criminal, great abuse of

714
00:37:48,199 --> 00:37:51,519
federal funding. It's like it's almost like stealing federal money.

715
00:37:52,159 --> 00:37:55,559
Speaker 1: Well, if there arecopenis, let's have doctor j Bonicharia delivered them.

716
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:58,599
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly. I think we should issue Jay a pardon

717
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:08,719
right now. Hey, John grade grade, Merrick Garland, how partisan

718
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:13,199
has he been? Really? And grade? Jack Smith? Those two

719
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:14,840
what grade would you give them?

720
00:38:15,159 --> 00:38:18,639
Speaker 2: But Jack Smith, just as a federal prosecutor, suppose I

721
00:38:18,679 --> 00:38:21,639
agreed with Jack Smith, agreed with the just Department that

722
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,599
Donald Trump and I've always said, you know a lot

723
00:38:24,599 --> 00:38:28,000
of these prosecutions were focused but not the January sixth prosecution.

724
00:38:28,119 --> 00:38:31,719
If there really was involvement with president by President Trump

725
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:34,840
in an attack on the Capitol, that should be investigated

726
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:38,719
by prosecutors and could be charged. If that's the case.

727
00:38:39,199 --> 00:38:43,440
Jack Smith is one of the most incompetent federal prosecutors

728
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:47,840
run across. I mean, he had two years to at

729
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:51,039
least get charges in and get the case going, and

730
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:53,639
he failed. Not only did he fail, but you look

731
00:38:53,679 --> 00:38:55,599
at the indictment, you look at the documents, it doesn't

732
00:38:55,599 --> 00:38:59,519
seem he discovered any new facts. Plus he got whooped

733
00:38:59,519 --> 00:39:02,920
on this unity case. I mean, if you look at

734
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:07,800
the outcome, is he left Donald Trump stronger than when

735
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:10,480
he found him. I mean, he has been so you

736
00:39:10,519 --> 00:39:12,719
just look at the results. He has been a tertorable

737
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,679
federal prosecutor, even if you agreed with everything in terms

738
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:20,920
of purpose of the investigation. Marek Garland, I feel a

739
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:24,559
lot of I feel actually that he's not as partisan

740
00:39:25,119 --> 00:39:28,039
as people make him out to be. I think actually

741
00:39:28,079 --> 00:39:30,119
he turned out to be quite a week attorney general.

742
00:39:30,159 --> 00:39:32,639
And that's the reason you saw because he could have

743
00:39:32,679 --> 00:39:36,400
said at the beginning, much like the Supreme Court ultimately said,

744
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:38,719
you know, we're putting this page behind us. We are

745
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,719
not going to investigate a former president. We're certainly not

746
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:45,760
going to investigate the major opposition party candidate for president

747
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:48,320
in the middle of an election. So that would have been,

748
00:39:48,679 --> 00:39:50,880
you know, a strong controversial I think that would have

749
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,480
been the right thing to do. Or putting it on

750
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:55,800
the other hand, you could have said, starting in twenty

751
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,079
twenty one, we're going to open an investigation into Donald

752
00:39:58,119 --> 00:40:02,000
Trump because of what we all saw January sixth. He

753
00:40:02,119 --> 00:40:05,159
spent over a year and a half dilly dallying right

754
00:40:05,679 --> 00:40:08,880
and then ultimately to appoint Jack Smith as a special counsel.

755
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,039
Was in admission that the Justice Department couldn't handle this.

756
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:15,159
So I actually think we're going to look back and see,

757
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:17,559
I say, Merk Garland was a torch bearer for the

758
00:40:17,559 --> 00:40:21,280
Democratic Party or for Joe Biden. I think ultimately turns

759
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:24,280
out he was a weak, vacillating attorney general. He didn't

760
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:26,239
show any leadership. And this is this is actually my

761
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:28,760
view of the Biden administration as a whole, that lack

762
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:32,280
of leadership just let the machinery of bureaucracy, which is

763
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:35,159
always progressive in nature, just go ahead and do what

764
00:40:35,199 --> 00:40:35,559
it wanted.

765
00:40:35,599 --> 00:40:35,880
Speaker 1: To do.

766
00:40:36,079 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 2: And Jack, that's Jack Smith. He's the ultimate expression of

767
00:40:39,639 --> 00:40:44,360
the unelected professional bureaucracy and the machine. But without leadership,

768
00:40:44,639 --> 00:40:46,800
it's not that competent most of the time.

769
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 5: Charlie or James, I can't pronounce scrammetti, So I'll leave

770
00:40:51,079 --> 00:40:51,960
that one to you guys.

771
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:58,559
Speaker 1: Skibbitty, it's pronounced skibvity. Charlie, you want to take that.

772
00:40:57,400 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 5: That case, yes, please?

773
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,599
Speaker 6: But John, did you listen to the oral arguments?

774
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:04,039
Speaker 7: No?

775
00:41:04,079 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 2: I never do. I can't stand hearing other people talk

776
00:41:07,039 --> 00:41:08,000
about the Constitution.

777
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:14,119
Speaker 7: Even Clarence Thomas, with that beautiful voice, he doesn't say

778
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:14,719
very much.

779
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:17,679
Speaker 2: I did read, I did read the I did read

780
00:41:17,679 --> 00:41:19,559
about the oor argonists, but I didn't listen to them.

781
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:20,840
Speaker 6: Do you have a view on it?

782
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,280
Speaker 7: I mean, I will preempt this by saying that to me,

783
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:26,639
it just seems self evidently ridiculous that the fourteenth Amendment

784
00:41:26,679 --> 00:41:29,760
to the US Constitution, written in eighteen sixty six, ratified

785
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:33,760
in eighteen sixty eight would micro manage the state's capacity

786
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:37,679
to prevent the cutting off of the genitals of eight

787
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:43,920
year olds. But perhaps you have a different views, as.

788
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:49,800
Speaker 2: They say in court, asked and answered, yeah.

789
00:41:48,119 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 1: No, one's coming to Charles. They're just rendering them useless

790
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:54,039
for the rest of their lives. Let's not go There's a.

791
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:56,400
Speaker 2: Lot there are a lot of interesting things in the

792
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,880
oral argument, and the briefing is really interesting because I

793
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:02,480
read most of the important briefs and I learned a

794
00:42:02,519 --> 00:42:06,559
lot actually about what's been medical, what's actually place, yeah,

795
00:42:06,559 --> 00:42:10,719
what's actually been happening, but also the prevalence of this disorder.

796
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:14,360
One interesting thing I did not know is that for decades,

797
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:18,280
the number of adults who have this gender dyspharia problem

798
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:21,440
is something like point five percent of the population. So

799
00:42:21,519 --> 00:42:23,960
one question is, why are we re ordering all of

800
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:27,159
our social relations and our rules, our bathroom sports, blah

801
00:42:27,199 --> 00:42:30,480
blah blah for point five of the population. But here's

802
00:42:30,519 --> 00:42:33,119
the interesting thing. Well, I can do that, yes, but

803
00:42:33,199 --> 00:42:37,559
go on for minors. For kids, for many, many decades,

804
00:42:37,639 --> 00:42:41,480
it was also point five percent of kids had reported

805
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:45,079
this issue, and then starting about ten fifteen years ago,

806
00:42:45,159 --> 00:42:49,119
it tripled to one point five percent. What happened then

807
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:52,400
social media? I think, But this is an interesting question

808
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:56,079
that the actually Tennessee and other states that have issued

809
00:42:56,119 --> 00:42:58,639
these bands have said, is we're not banning this. We

810
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,599
just don't understand the problem. Yet we're not saying we

811
00:43:01,599 --> 00:43:06,559
could never allow this kind of procedure. But if miners

812
00:43:06,559 --> 00:43:09,920
are suddenly saying triple rates that they have this problem,

813
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:12,800
and adults the numbers flat, Yeah, is it really a

814
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,719
wise thing to do to allow these kind of permanent

815
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:18,360
surgical changes when we really don't understand what's going on.

816
00:43:18,599 --> 00:43:20,920
I thought that was interesting factory Legally. The other thing,

817
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:23,679
I totally agree with Charlie. There's no way the fourteenth

818
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:29,320
Amendment was intended to recognize gender dysphoria as a protected

819
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:33,599
class on a par with blacks and women.

820
00:43:34,079 --> 00:43:36,840
Speaker 5: It's just like, so you have a less expansive view

821
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:40,960
of the Fourteenth Amendment. Then, for example, Justice Gorsicic, who.

822
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:43,840
Speaker 2: Charlie did listen to the oral argument you should note

823
00:43:44,119 --> 00:43:49,360
was utterly silent, was and the reason why, But the

824
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,599
reason why is I think he's embarrassed because the logic

825
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:56,000
that Charlie offered to make fun of comes from Justice

826
00:43:56,000 --> 00:44:00,159
Gorsuch's decision about Title seven in a case called Bostock right,

827
00:44:00,159 --> 00:44:03,400
where he didn't ask Boskas. Does the nineteen sixty four

828
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:08,719
Civil Rights Act provide protections to people based on their

829
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:12,320
sexual orientation, not their sex. Of course they wish their

830
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:15,760
sex to be as conclusion, didn't he Yeah, and he did.

831
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,800
He ignored. Actually, the way Charlie put the question, did

832
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:21,360
the people who wrote the sixty four Act what they

833
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:25,480
have ever thought they were providing protections for this? Obviously

834
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:27,280
all the evidence was overwhelming.

835
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:30,920
Speaker 1: So you got your living in your breathing don't you. You

836
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:33,840
got your living breathing constitution right, So it has to

837
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:36,239
be elastic enough to accept the definitions, the new, brave,

838
00:44:36,519 --> 00:44:38,519
new world definitions that we come up with. And if

839
00:44:38,639 --> 00:44:43,599
we shake off our old archaic notions of gender and

840
00:44:43,639 --> 00:44:45,599
sex and the rest of it and come into a

841
00:44:45,639 --> 00:44:47,480
new world in which these things are understood to be

842
00:44:47,519 --> 00:44:50,920
kaleidoscopically varied, well, then of course the Constitution must must

843
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:54,440
must bend to that. That's what they say. I mean that.

844
00:44:54,679 --> 00:44:57,360
That's why this is important to them, because it is

845
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:01,599
a validation of the whole gay rights but queer right,

846
00:45:01,639 --> 00:45:04,599
the queering of the Constitution in order to make it

847
00:45:04,679 --> 00:45:07,440
some sort of you know, Procrustrian bed that can be

848
00:45:08,079 --> 00:45:12,239
is what they want. And the line that's being drawn

849
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:18,599
in the sand here is important, is critical, and I'm

850
00:45:18,639 --> 00:45:20,639
not going to any conclusion that I can actually think of,

851
00:45:20,639 --> 00:45:23,840
because I already passed my segue. I'm afraid I would. John,

852
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:26,280
you were going to be present in for an actual

853
00:45:26,559 --> 00:45:29,000
commercial segue, but the moment has been lost.

854
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 5: Would you like it?

855
00:45:30,039 --> 00:45:31,239
Speaker 2: Ever been in a commercial?

856
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:32,039
Speaker 1: All right?

857
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:35,039
Speaker 2: Have you guys finally been sponsored by McDonald's.

858
00:45:35,039 --> 00:45:38,599
Speaker 1: I've been waiting, no, but it's coming along well. I

859
00:45:38,639 --> 00:45:40,800
wanted to talk about the constitution being living in breathing.

860
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:42,679
Of course, I was thinking of breathing, and I was

861
00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:45,840
thinking of luhin as you would do if you had

862
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:48,119
a lumen. You got a lumin, John, you got one

863
00:45:48,119 --> 00:45:48,400
of those.

864
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:50,519
Speaker 2: I have no idea what that is, but you are

865
00:45:50,599 --> 00:45:51,199
going to tell me.

866
00:45:51,559 --> 00:45:53,039
Speaker 1: I am going to tell you because of your love

867
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868
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869
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893
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895
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899
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904
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908
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before we go here and John is still with us,

909
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:50,519
let's get out of the law for a second here

910
00:47:50,559 --> 00:47:52,840
and discuss if you will, John, I'm sure you've been

911
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:56,199
following this other case in Manhattan where the CEO was

912
00:47:56,519 --> 00:47:59,440
shot down on the street. And there's an for all

913
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:01,920
the people who are saying that Twitter is a cesspool

914
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:05,119
of hate and anti and neo Nazi behavior. There's a

915
00:48:05,119 --> 00:48:08,760
lot of people running around on Twitter saying good, good,

916
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:15,280
they got one. There's something very disturbing about the reaction

917
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:18,199
that we're seeing to the murder of this guy.

918
00:48:19,519 --> 00:48:22,960
Speaker 2: It's a great contrast to what we started talking about here.

919
00:48:23,039 --> 00:48:25,360
On one hand, you've got Penny, Right, I think, is

920
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:28,159
a genuine hero who just walks onto a subway car

921
00:48:28,519 --> 00:48:32,199
and he witnesses this person threatening the health and safety

922
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:35,639
of his fellow pastors, intervenes to save the life. Right,

923
00:48:35,679 --> 00:48:38,880
And conservatives don't like him being prosecuted, and I think,

924
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,360
I think rightly want him acquit it or charges dropped.

925
00:48:42,559 --> 00:48:45,280
Then on the other hand, you have a guy who

926
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:50,440
clearly carries out a planned, premeditated murder, and the liberal

927
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:53,920
blogosphere is saying, what a great hero. Doesn't that just

928
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:57,960
show you the difference and values these days between conservatives

929
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:01,880
and progresses, where you have one one group. Loss of

930
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:06,320
life occurred, We're sorry about it, but it was a

931
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:09,559
way necessary to save the lives of more. Here's, on

932
00:49:09,599 --> 00:49:12,800
the other hand, someone who did nothing wrong. You know,

933
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:15,519
it was just walking across the street to go to

934
00:49:15,559 --> 00:49:18,320
the Midtown Hilton. By the way, I was like, he's

935
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:20,559
going to shut down Hull all guys, because if you're

936
00:49:20,639 --> 00:49:23,400
bound to the Midtown Hilton. The street corner is where

937
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:25,719
the whole all guys started and they're still there. The

938
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:28,960
best best Egyptian food in New York anyway.

939
00:49:29,039 --> 00:49:32,079
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, the liberals have finally discovered the idea of

940
00:49:32,079 --> 00:49:33,000
a good guy with the gun.

941
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:37,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, but they want them to kill corporate executives. I

942
00:49:37,079 --> 00:49:38,760
don't know if you guys are watching this TV show

943
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:39,920
The Jackal, have you guys?

944
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 5: Yes?

945
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:41,239
Speaker 1: Yeah?

946
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:43,800
Speaker 2: I love the show. I remember the original movie, you know,

947
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:45,719
The Day of the Jackal. I think the TV show

948
00:49:46,119 --> 00:49:48,280
is really good and the you know it's it's you know,

949
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:50,559
it's ten episodes, so it gives you more of the story.

950
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:54,360
This is they're praising. They're praising a guy who's basically

951
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:58,079
assassin who goes and plans out them and in the

952
00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:02,000
in the Jackal show, he goes CEOs that's the main target.

953
00:50:02,039 --> 00:50:04,159
And I'm sorry to give out this John.

954
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:04,840
Speaker 1: Was this crime?

955
00:50:05,199 --> 00:50:08,719
Speaker 5: Was this crime essentially unpreventable? Or does it indicate a

956
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:12,760
decay in policing in New York when Bloomberg was mayor

957
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:13,679
could this have happened?

958
00:50:14,559 --> 00:50:16,599
Speaker 2: I don't see how the level of policing could have

959
00:50:16,639 --> 00:50:19,679
stopped someone who's got I mean, look, if this is

960
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:23,800
like Godfather too, you know, Michael says, if history has

961
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:26,760
told us anything, they said, you can get anyone if

962
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:30,280
you really want to, right. I think that's true. Well,

963
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:32,199
I don't see what police could have done here. Now.

964
00:50:32,679 --> 00:50:35,320
I think it seems, you know, this speculation, but it

965
00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:38,400
seems obvious that someone was helping this guy because how

966
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:42,400
did he know exactly when I was going to cross

967
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:45,760
the street without any security detail. It's a little after

968
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:48,239
six in the morning to go from the hotel Hey's

969
00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:50,719
staying across the street to the shareholder meeting, and the

970
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:53,280
shareholder meeting wasn't for a few more hours. You look

971
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:55,880
at the tape, this assassin arrives I think five to

972
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:59,559
ten minutes early right before. How would he know when

973
00:50:59,599 --> 00:51:01,280
this guy was going to walk cross street that he'd

974
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:04,199
have no security where he was going to be exactly

975
00:51:04,199 --> 00:51:04,800
in that moment?

976
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:11,480
Speaker 7: John, Is this a state level first degree murder or

977
00:51:11,559 --> 00:51:16,519
is this terrorism? I've seen some people suggest that because

978
00:51:18,519 --> 00:51:23,159
the assassination was of somebody who worked in a particular industry,

979
00:51:24,559 --> 00:51:29,400
and because there were words on the bullet casings, and

980
00:51:29,559 --> 00:51:34,320
because the assumption is that this was a revenge message

981
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:37,880
driven killing, that this could be classify as something other

982
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:41,239
than a first degree murder that you would see prosecuted

983
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:42,280
in New York all the time.

984
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:47,320
Speaker 2: I don't think so. I mean, it might meet rhetorically

985
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:51,840
what we might call terrorism, okay, But in terms of

986
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:57,159
the criminal law, terrorism has involved some component where the

987
00:51:57,280 --> 00:52:03,280
murderer is attempting to use islence to coerce the population,

988
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:05,880
the government or the people of the United States to

989
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:09,599
change a policy. So it's you know, with this is

990
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:13,320
revenge or not. It doesn't. This doesn't seem to be

991
00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:17,079
I am right going to shoot this guy because I

992
00:52:17,119 --> 00:52:20,599
want the United States government to change its Medicare reimbursement

993
00:52:20,679 --> 00:52:23,599
policies or insurance possible. So legally, I don't think you

994
00:52:23,639 --> 00:52:24,440
could charge him.

995
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:27,119
Speaker 1: But right for the cold.

996
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:28,880
Speaker 2: Bloodness of this murder means I don't think there's any

997
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:31,199
lack of things to charge this guy with. And you know,

998
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:33,199
if New York State were a normal state, you'd be

999
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:35,960
charged with, you know, capital murder with the possibility of

1000
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:40,480
the death penalty. But right Alvin Bragg's not going to

1001
00:52:40,519 --> 00:52:42,280
go that far. Who knows if Alan Bragg will even

1002
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:42,920
charge the guy.

1003
00:52:43,519 --> 00:52:46,559
Speaker 1: Well, he did right the he did write out his

1004
00:52:46,639 --> 00:52:49,400
manifesto on the bullets, and he wrote three words which

1005
00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:52,800
have come to be connected with insurance company behavior. So

1006
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:55,280
there it is. Is So it's going to be hard

1007
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:57,440
for him to say that he was just temporarily seized

1008
00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:00,079
by some sort of brainfasm, a brain phantasm. No, I

1009
00:53:00,119 --> 00:53:03,280
mean this was targeted and this had to This had

1010
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:06,679
an ideological component. And it just reminds you how many

1011
00:53:06,679 --> 00:53:10,880
people are completely at ease with seeing political violence used

1012
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:13,280
in the street if it's in the application of furthering

1013
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:16,480
the right thing. So, but what's amusing, of course, is

1014
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:18,880
all these people who believe that if the government just

1015
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:20,960
paid for everything, then there'd just be more of it.

1016
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:25,199
We'd get, we would have absolutely the anesthesiologists would just

1017
00:53:25,519 --> 00:53:27,800
you know, they'd put that mask in your face for

1018
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:29,800
ten twelve hours or so and didn't care what they

1019
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:33,880
were paid, instead of course being rationing and denial of

1020
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:35,840
services and death panels and all the rest of it.

1021
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:39,480
Speaking of death panels, this show is dead in the

1022
00:53:39,519 --> 00:53:41,559
water because it's come to a stop because we have

1023
00:53:41,639 --> 00:53:43,159
to leave. But what we want to do, or a

1024
00:53:43,159 --> 00:53:45,079
couple of things we want to remind you. The podcast

1025
00:53:45,159 --> 00:53:47,519
was brought to you by Cozy Earth, our new sponsored

1026
00:53:47,599 --> 00:53:51,840
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1027
00:53:52,199 --> 00:53:54,920
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1028
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:57,280
and the rest of it. You love it and join

1029
00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:00,880
Ricochet dot come, won't you? I mean? I mean there's

1030
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:04,280
been like seven hundred podcast where I reminded you of this,

1031
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:07,320
maybe seven ones the charm, But go there and you'll

1032
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:10,440
find the sin to right sane civil conversation you've been

1033
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:12,760
looking for all your life on the Internet. And also,

1034
00:54:12,760 --> 00:54:14,840
if you could review us at Apple Podcasts or any

1035
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:17,880
podcast place that takes reviews, we would appreciate it because

1036
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:19,840
we like when people say nice things about us. Who

1037
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:23,159
wouldn't If you've got anything bad to say, tell it

1038
00:54:23,159 --> 00:54:26,079
to us, But you'll have to join Ricochet to do so.

1039
00:54:26,159 --> 00:54:29,400
How about that for an enticement? Join Ricochet, pay anomenal

1040
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:31,760
fee and yell at us about what a bubbleship vidiots

1041
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:35,440
we are to your heart's content, and then get squashed

1042
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:38,360
by the moderator. John. Thanks for joining us today, Charles,

1043
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:41,159
as ever, give my regards to Florida. Peter, give my

1044
00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:46,719
regards to California. I accept your regards from Minnesota if

1045
00:54:46,719 --> 00:54:49,480
you have any and what else can I say, except

1046
00:54:49,519 --> 00:54:51,320
we'll see you all in the comments at Ricochet for

1047
00:54:51,559 --> 00:54:52,039
point zero.

1048
00:54:52,360 --> 00:55:02,440
Speaker 5: Next week, Guys Take Care Boys Ricochet join the conversation